1 00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:04,839 Speaker 1: How'd you like to listen to dot NetRocks with no ads? Easy? 2 00:00:05,360 --> 00:00:08,599 Become a patron For just five dollars a month you 3 00:00:08,640 --> 00:00:11,359 get access to a private RSS feed where all the 4 00:00:11,400 --> 00:00:14,599 shows have no ads. Twenty dollars a month will get 5 00:00:14,640 --> 00:00:18,440 you that and a special dot NetRocks patron mug. Sign 6 00:00:18,519 --> 00:00:22,640 up now at Patreon dot dot NetRocks dot com. Hey, 7 00:00:22,760 --> 00:00:26,559 Carl and Richard here with your twenty twenty four NDC schedule. 8 00:00:26,760 --> 00:00:29,480 Speaker 2: Will be at as many NDC conferences as possible this year, 9 00:00:29,519 --> 00:00:32,520 and you should consider attending no matter what. The Copenhagen 10 00:00:32,560 --> 00:00:36,119 Developers Festival happens August twenty sixth through the thirtieth. Tickets 11 00:00:36,159 --> 00:00:39,200 at Cphdevfest dot com. 12 00:00:39,399 --> 00:00:43,759 Speaker 1: Ndcporto is happening October fourteenth through the eighteenth. The early 13 00:00:43,840 --> 00:00:49,479 bird discount ends June fourteenth. Tickets at Ndcporto dot com. 14 00:00:49,520 --> 00:01:02,320 Speaker 3: And we'll see you there, we hope. 15 00:01:04,680 --> 00:01:07,680 Speaker 1: Hey, guess what it's Dot need rocks again. I'm Carl Franklin, 16 00:01:07,799 --> 00:01:12,280 that Richard Campbell here for the nineteen hundredth and seventeenth time. 17 00:01:12,599 --> 00:01:15,239 Speaker 2: It's World War One. It's World War one. It it's 18 00:01:15,280 --> 00:01:22,079 officially started. Okay, we're well into it at this point. 19 00:01:22,560 --> 00:01:26,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, you're right, yeah, yeah, right, So yeah, what's up 20 00:01:26,719 --> 00:01:29,200 with you, mister Campbell. We just got back from Dev Intersection. 21 00:01:29,280 --> 00:01:31,879 Had a great time there. Yeah, I had a great 22 00:01:31,879 --> 00:01:34,200 time there. I was just writing up some of the pieces, 23 00:01:34,280 --> 00:01:38,040 the keynotes and things. I mean, it's a crazy time, right, 24 00:01:38,159 --> 00:01:41,159 Like the software is moving fast. Some of the demos 25 00:01:41,159 --> 00:01:43,480 were astonishing. You had a good workshop, You're real happy 26 00:01:43,519 --> 00:01:45,760 with it, very happy. Yeah, it's like thirty people in 27 00:01:45,799 --> 00:01:50,280 it or something, and all about Blazer. Jeff Fritz did 28 00:01:50,280 --> 00:01:52,560 a sort of an intro to Blazer workshop, and I 29 00:01:52,680 --> 00:01:56,879 did a more more intermediate advanced workshop, and I also 30 00:01:56,959 --> 00:02:01,959 had a talk called Gotcha's in Blazer Web Apps and 31 00:02:02,000 --> 00:02:04,799 not at eight because there are some gotcha's. There are 32 00:02:04,840 --> 00:02:08,919 some things that Microsoft intended to work a certain way 33 00:02:08,960 --> 00:02:12,639 and then they didn't really work. So things that work around. 34 00:02:12,960 --> 00:02:15,599 Speaker 2: It's not that bleeding edge of technology anymore though. I 35 00:02:15,599 --> 00:02:17,599 mean you're kind of at V three. Things are sort 36 00:02:17,599 --> 00:02:20,199 of maturing out, like it's almost a grown up. 37 00:02:20,319 --> 00:02:22,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, And that's kind of why it was surprising that 38 00:02:22,120 --> 00:02:25,080 we had gotcha's in the first place. But I think 39 00:02:25,120 --> 00:02:29,360 they took everybody by surprise, not that there aren't workarounds 40 00:02:29,400 --> 00:02:32,120 for it. But you know, it's not a reason not 41 00:02:32,159 --> 00:02:34,000 to use Blazer, but you just need to know what 42 00:02:34,039 --> 00:02:34,319 they are. 43 00:02:34,400 --> 00:02:37,680 Speaker 2: I think you've also got a moving surface around you too. 44 00:02:37,680 --> 00:02:39,919 I've got the comment I've got will tie you into 45 00:02:39,960 --> 00:02:43,360 that pretty well. Yeah, because there's things on change in 46 00:02:43,400 --> 00:02:44,120 all the time. 47 00:02:44,039 --> 00:02:46,439 Speaker 1: And just to do a little plug, I'm also doing 48 00:02:46,479 --> 00:02:52,919 that Gotcha's talk with on Sean Walker's virtual event on 49 00:02:52,960 --> 00:02:56,439 October third. I don't have a time yet, but look 50 00:02:56,520 --> 00:02:59,800 for that. Okay, okay, So let's get into it with 51 00:02:59,840 --> 00:03:02,039 a little thing. We call it better no a framework. 52 00:03:02,120 --> 00:03:10,840 Speaker 2: Awesome, roll it all right, man? 53 00:03:10,879 --> 00:03:11,280 Speaker 3: What do you got? 54 00:03:11,439 --> 00:03:13,560 Speaker 1: Well, you know, this started out as me sort of 55 00:03:13,599 --> 00:03:15,919 pointing to little things in the dot net framework. It 56 00:03:15,960 --> 00:03:18,879 was even before dot net core, and quickly ran out 57 00:03:18,919 --> 00:03:20,960 of stuff to talk about. So it just turns into 58 00:03:21,080 --> 00:03:24,759 you know, hey, what caught my interest this week? I'd pointed. 59 00:03:24,879 --> 00:03:26,639 Speaker 2: It was not that quick. There was a period we 60 00:03:26,639 --> 00:03:29,240 were doing three of these a week, and you went 61 00:03:29,280 --> 00:03:30,960 through the whole flip and framework. 62 00:03:31,280 --> 00:03:34,039 Speaker 1: Yeah, pretty much. I mean the stuff that the stuff 63 00:03:34,080 --> 00:03:35,199 that was tricky. 64 00:03:35,120 --> 00:03:37,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, several years worth of content. 65 00:03:37,800 --> 00:03:41,719 Speaker 1: Yeah, you're right. Okay, So I found this event in 66 00:03:42,159 --> 00:03:45,159 the twenty through the twenty sixth of January coming up here. 67 00:03:45,479 --> 00:03:47,800 It's called Global Game Jam. 68 00:03:48,039 --> 00:03:48,919 Speaker 2: Oh, that sounds fun. 69 00:03:49,120 --> 00:03:52,520 Speaker 1: Globalgamejam dot org. And so just like when musicians get 70 00:03:52,560 --> 00:03:55,560 together and have jam sessions and they feed on each 71 00:03:55,599 --> 00:03:59,520 other and get creative together and good stuff comes out, 72 00:03:59,560 --> 00:04:05,560 that's the whole idea with this. It's it's there's sort 73 00:04:05,639 --> 00:04:10,199 of like four hundred and thirty nine thousand jammers. Wow, 74 00:04:10,360 --> 00:04:14,439 this is to date, eighty nine thousand games created, one 75 00:04:14,520 --> 00:04:20,120 hundred and thirty two countries participated. So it's it's all 76 00:04:20,160 --> 00:04:23,040 online of course, and they have a discord and a 77 00:04:23,079 --> 00:04:30,120 Twitch stream, and they have videos from last year keynote. 78 00:04:31,439 --> 00:04:33,480 It's just it looks like a lot of fun. And 79 00:04:33,560 --> 00:04:37,639 the thing is too that it's not just for gamers 80 00:04:37,720 --> 00:04:42,879 who you know, who have experience like this is for 81 00:04:43,000 --> 00:04:46,120 people who might be just game curious, like they don't 82 00:04:46,120 --> 00:04:47,720 know how games are created at all. 83 00:04:47,920 --> 00:04:50,519 Speaker 2: And the tooling these days is so good, like, yeah, 84 00:04:51,120 --> 00:04:54,160 don't need a huge team, you can do it by yourself, 85 00:04:54,160 --> 00:04:56,279 although I've seen lots of teams of three be very 86 00:04:56,279 --> 00:05:00,360 successful and make it maybe a mobile game, make a 87 00:05:00,360 --> 00:05:02,720 web game, like there's a lot of choices right. 88 00:05:03,079 --> 00:05:05,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, so that looks really cool. I might pop in 89 00:05:05,839 --> 00:05:08,839 and check it out and maybe create some games. Might 90 00:05:08,879 --> 00:05:09,199 be fun. 91 00:05:09,279 --> 00:05:10,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a good idea. 92 00:05:10,240 --> 00:05:10,480 Speaker 3: Yep. 93 00:05:10,839 --> 00:05:11,959 Speaker 1: So who's talking to us today? 94 00:05:12,040 --> 00:05:15,040 Speaker 2: Richard and Grab a comment of a show eighteen fifteen, 95 00:05:15,120 --> 00:05:18,680 So about one hundred shows ago with our friend Debbie O'Brien. 96 00:05:18,720 --> 00:05:20,240 Maybe you heard of her, Yeah, and we were talking 97 00:05:20,240 --> 00:05:22,240 about play Right. This is back from October in twenty 98 00:05:22,240 --> 00:05:25,000 two and I got a few good comments on the show, 99 00:05:25,040 --> 00:05:27,319 but this one was very specific. Admittedly it's over a 100 00:05:27,360 --> 00:05:28,959 year ago now. This is from Chris Martin. He said, 101 00:05:29,120 --> 00:05:30,759 just getting into play right and it was great listening 102 00:05:30,800 --> 00:05:32,439 to the episode of Dot and Rocks on it. I'm 103 00:05:32,480 --> 00:05:36,879 currently getting this implemented for a Blazer app. What's the 104 00:05:36,920 --> 00:05:41,199 babe for authenticating with azure ad in our tests? Thanks? 105 00:05:41,879 --> 00:05:46,800 And Carl responded to this actually back then talking about 106 00:05:47,560 --> 00:05:51,480 azure ad B two c of through Blazer training include 107 00:05:51,480 --> 00:05:53,720 a link in the show notes for that particular show. 108 00:05:54,680 --> 00:05:57,680 Although it's changing, it's been a year. 109 00:05:57,839 --> 00:05:59,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's changed and stuff's changed. 110 00:06:00,040 --> 00:06:00,240 Speaker 3: Yeah. 111 00:06:01,839 --> 00:06:04,680 Speaker 1: We went through this period where we were using MSAL, 112 00:06:04,800 --> 00:06:08,600 the Microsoft Authentication Library right as a way to simplify 113 00:06:09,720 --> 00:06:12,519 accessing it, and now there's even more stuff that's like 114 00:06:12,639 --> 00:06:14,920 I haven't even i mean even kept up with it. 115 00:06:14,959 --> 00:06:16,079 That's how new it is. 116 00:06:16,199 --> 00:06:21,279 Speaker 2: Well, they call it an intra now, and so in 117 00:06:21,319 --> 00:06:25,480 some ways it's clearly better. I think definitely. My repertoire 118 00:06:25,480 --> 00:06:28,120 for the show's coming up is a whole conversation about 119 00:06:28,160 --> 00:06:31,759 managed identity. Yeah, specific And it's one thing to manage 120 00:06:31,800 --> 00:06:34,639 identity in production. It's another thing to talk about managed 121 00:06:34,680 --> 00:06:39,120 identity in tests and in the dev cycle. But you've 122 00:06:39,160 --> 00:06:43,600 heard on the news this whole Microsoft Future Security Initiative 123 00:06:43,800 --> 00:06:47,560 or Insecure Initiative, and a lot of that has to 124 00:06:47,600 --> 00:06:53,319 do with undersecured dev resources, demos things like that. So 125 00:06:53,439 --> 00:06:56,120 Microsoft is pushing hard for their own people to do 126 00:06:56,160 --> 00:06:56,879 this better. 127 00:06:56,720 --> 00:06:57,839 Speaker 1: Yeah, across all teams. 128 00:06:57,920 --> 00:07:00,839 Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, and to be that's super exciting because they're 129 00:07:00,879 --> 00:07:03,360 going to knock the snot out of this process, like 130 00:07:03,360 --> 00:07:06,000 they're going to make it better for their own needs. 131 00:07:06,079 --> 00:07:07,879 That means it's going to be better for all of us. 132 00:07:08,000 --> 00:07:10,120 Speaker 1: I mean we're talking about people who write white papers, 133 00:07:10,160 --> 00:07:14,040 who publish examples, who you know, maybe do this stuff 134 00:07:14,040 --> 00:07:19,279 with three sixty the developer team obviously, Yeah, I know 135 00:07:19,639 --> 00:07:22,079 I know my friend Jeff Fritz is in that. 136 00:07:22,519 --> 00:07:25,399 Speaker 2: Yep, lots of folks that are buried in it right now. 137 00:07:25,399 --> 00:07:28,079 And and again it's like there's a there's a feedback 138 00:07:28,120 --> 00:07:30,439 loop here. Not only should they follow the practices, but 139 00:07:30,480 --> 00:07:33,920 when the practices are just too awkward to use, they 140 00:07:33,959 --> 00:07:36,680 know where those guys live, Like they'll lay in wait 141 00:07:36,720 --> 00:07:38,600 in the bushes outside of the office building. 142 00:07:38,600 --> 00:07:40,800 Speaker 1: They'll tackle too soon, too soon. 143 00:07:41,240 --> 00:07:43,759 Speaker 2: No, No, I'm just saying, like I watched what happened 144 00:07:43,759 --> 00:07:46,560 to WPF back in the day when the studio team 145 00:07:46,600 --> 00:07:51,519 started implementing WPF, WPF got dramatically better, and it was 146 00:07:51,560 --> 00:07:52,639 that back and forth. 147 00:07:52,720 --> 00:07:55,360 Speaker 1: Hey, if you want to go way back when sql 148 00:07:55,399 --> 00:08:00,519 server implemented the dot Net framework inside SQL servert got 149 00:08:00,560 --> 00:08:03,240 better well, without a doubt, because the sequel team kicked 150 00:08:03,279 --> 00:08:03,720 its butt. 151 00:08:03,879 --> 00:08:07,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, no doubt. So anyway, I'm hopeful. Yeah, and Chris, 152 00:08:07,560 --> 00:08:09,040 thank you so much for your commented. A copy of 153 00:08:09,120 --> 00:08:10,519 music Cobe is on its way to you. And if 154 00:08:10,519 --> 00:08:12,120 you'd like a copy of music code by I write 155 00:08:12,120 --> 00:08:14,240 a comment on the website at dot at rocks dot 156 00:08:14,240 --> 00:08:16,519 com or on Facebook. We publish every show there and 157 00:08:16,560 --> 00:08:18,319 if you comment there in a reason the show. We'll 158 00:08:18,360 --> 00:08:19,399 send you a copy music cope. 159 00:08:19,399 --> 00:08:22,360 Speaker 1: He's code by still going strong and people using it 160 00:08:22,439 --> 00:08:25,079 every day to be more productive when they code or 161 00:08:25,120 --> 00:08:28,680 sleep or relax or focus or whatever. All right, so 162 00:08:29,079 --> 00:08:32,240 let's bring in Wi O'Brien. Before I do that, though, 163 00:08:32,279 --> 00:08:34,320 I need to mention that you can follow us on Twitter, 164 00:08:34,919 --> 00:08:38,159 and of course we've been on ex Twitter for years. 165 00:08:38,279 --> 00:08:41,840 But the cool kids are hanging out at Masdon. I'm 166 00:08:41,919 --> 00:08:44,240 Carl Franklin at tech Hub dot Social. 167 00:08:43,919 --> 00:08:45,720 Speaker 2: And I'm Riche Campbell at Masidon dot Angele. 168 00:08:45,840 --> 00:08:48,399 Speaker 1: Okay, so Debbie has been on the show before, of course, 169 00:08:48,440 --> 00:08:51,039 but if you don't remember, Wi O'Brien is a Principal 170 00:08:51,039 --> 00:08:54,759 program manager at Microsoft. Wie has over fifteen years of 171 00:08:54,799 --> 00:08:58,200 experience in front end development. She's worked as a tech 172 00:08:58,279 --> 00:09:01,200 lead and consultant for many important and clients with various 173 00:09:01,240 --> 00:09:05,799 technologies and often with a strong focus on performance, static 174 00:09:05,879 --> 00:09:10,240 sites and testing. She has led teams both in house 175 00:09:10,360 --> 00:09:13,960 and remotely, as well as giving workshops and training. Also 176 00:09:14,039 --> 00:09:16,759 has many years of experience as a mentor for online 177 00:09:16,840 --> 00:09:21,519 learning platforms, Treehouse and open classrooms. Debbie's also a Google 178 00:09:21,600 --> 00:09:27,279 developer expert in web technologies, cloud andary Media Developer Expert 179 00:09:27,360 --> 00:09:31,639 and next Ambassador. Boy, there's a mouthful, as well as 180 00:09:31,679 --> 00:09:35,559 a GitHub Star alumni and a previous Microsoft Most Valuable 181 00:09:35,559 --> 00:09:40,200 Professional and Developer Technologies Debbie, I think you need to 182 00:09:40,200 --> 00:09:43,080 be a little more What should we say, you know, 183 00:09:43,200 --> 00:09:44,480 just try try a little harder. 184 00:09:44,679 --> 00:09:47,799 Speaker 4: I think I know, right, I'm trying to get the 185 00:09:47,840 --> 00:09:49,919 YouTube Award. That's my next one, you know that like 186 00:09:49,960 --> 00:09:52,960 big thing on one hundred thousand followers. I've got five thousand, 187 00:09:53,000 --> 00:09:54,399 so got a long way to go. But yeah, I 188 00:09:54,440 --> 00:09:55,240 need more awards. 189 00:09:55,840 --> 00:09:59,159 Speaker 2: Yeah. 190 00:09:59,279 --> 00:10:01,919 Speaker 1: I tell people the kind of the same way. I 191 00:10:02,000 --> 00:10:03,399 just don't know what I want to do when I 192 00:10:03,440 --> 00:10:05,840 grow up. I certainly haven't grown up yet. 193 00:10:07,639 --> 00:10:08,440 Speaker 2: Why start now? 194 00:10:08,639 --> 00:10:13,840 Speaker 1: Why start now? Yes, we're talking about Playwright, and Playwright 195 00:10:13,960 --> 00:10:20,320 is sort of the canonical web testing and automation actually 196 00:10:20,519 --> 00:10:24,840 platform that does snapshot testing, like we talked about with 197 00:10:25,399 --> 00:10:27,840 our friend Simon Crop, and it does all sorts of 198 00:10:27,879 --> 00:10:30,559 other things. Why don't you tell us what's on your 199 00:10:30,559 --> 00:10:31,960 mind in terms of Playwright? 200 00:10:32,279 --> 00:10:36,000 Speaker 4: Yeah? So, I mean everyone should already at this stage 201 00:10:36,039 --> 00:10:39,879 be testing their applications, because there's absolutely no excuse in 202 00:10:39,919 --> 00:10:43,320 the whole world why people are not testing right. Go 203 00:10:43,440 --> 00:10:46,360 back a couple of years, like ten years ago, no 204 00:10:46,399 --> 00:10:49,559 one was testing, and I completely understood that because testing 205 00:10:49,679 --> 00:10:53,240 was hard. Testing to time testing, the slow testing costs money. 206 00:10:53,600 --> 00:10:56,039 And now it's the opposite. If you're not testing your application, 207 00:10:56,080 --> 00:10:59,559 you're losing money as a company. You're dealing with bugs 208 00:10:59,559 --> 00:11:03,240 that you should and even have to deal with. So yeah, 209 00:11:03,279 --> 00:11:05,799 I've been trying to get people to test their applications 210 00:11:05,879 --> 00:11:10,200 and I think still there's people not testing. I don't 211 00:11:10,200 --> 00:11:12,480 know how to fix Carl Richard, how do we fix this? 212 00:11:13,639 --> 00:11:16,399 Speaker 1: I think most people assume and I'm going to assume 213 00:11:16,440 --> 00:11:19,799 that they assume that, well, why should I test? Because 214 00:11:19,879 --> 00:11:23,200 I know this routine or this method or creates this 215 00:11:23,399 --> 00:11:26,399 UI result. Why do I need to prove it? Right now? 216 00:11:26,480 --> 00:11:28,919 I can see that it works. But the question is, well, 217 00:11:29,480 --> 00:11:32,000 how will you know when some other developer takes over 218 00:11:32,080 --> 00:11:35,000 your project and does something on the back end that 219 00:11:35,120 --> 00:11:41,159 changes the outcome? That's when testing becomes really valuable, right, yeah. 220 00:11:40,919 --> 00:11:44,799 Speaker 4: And just changing like little like think about forms, right, 221 00:11:45,320 --> 00:11:48,720 Forms are one of the hardest things to test manually. 222 00:11:49,399 --> 00:11:50,799 And I don't know if you've ever done this a 223 00:11:50,840 --> 00:11:53,039 manual test and you start manually and what I mean 224 00:11:53,080 --> 00:11:55,159 by manual is going to the computer's a user and 225 00:11:55,159 --> 00:11:57,720 filling it that form and then you find out the 226 00:11:57,759 --> 00:12:00,159 typical For me, it happened to me today. I was 227 00:12:00,159 --> 00:12:02,840 putting my name in. I have an apostrophe in my name. Well, 228 00:12:02,919 --> 00:12:05,759 nobody tested the web and I couldn't put a specific 229 00:12:05,879 --> 00:12:08,919 type of apostrophe in. It wasn't accepting it, so it 230 00:12:08,919 --> 00:12:12,679 wouldn't accept my name, right, And nobody tested that, so 231 00:12:12,799 --> 00:12:14,799 I couldn't. I couldn't just couldn't get in. I had 232 00:12:14,799 --> 00:12:16,720 to like go to the actual computer. I couldn't do 233 00:12:16,720 --> 00:12:17,879 it for my phone, had to go to the computer 234 00:12:17,960 --> 00:12:19,960 where I had had more access. I was able to 235 00:12:20,039 --> 00:12:22,480 do it. But when you're actually testing that out manually, 236 00:12:22,480 --> 00:12:24,200 you're filling in all those things and then you press 237 00:12:24,200 --> 00:12:26,600 submit and you get this error message and then something 238 00:12:26,679 --> 00:12:28,399 is broken, and then you go in and you fix it, 239 00:12:28,440 --> 00:12:30,480 and then you go and fill that it again, and 240 00:12:30,519 --> 00:12:33,679 you keep doing that process, a repetible, horrible process that 241 00:12:33,759 --> 00:12:35,519 I used to do, that you used to do back 242 00:12:35,559 --> 00:12:37,960 in the old days, when you know, that was the 243 00:12:37,960 --> 00:12:40,679 only way we could do things. But now you have 244 00:12:40,759 --> 00:12:44,320 tools such as Playwright that basically is an extremely fast 245 00:12:44,360 --> 00:12:48,399 you right, it is you times one hundred and that 246 00:12:48,519 --> 00:12:51,679 can fill that form in one hundred times faster. So 247 00:12:51,799 --> 00:12:56,039 that basically is automated. Once you write that test, that 248 00:12:56,080 --> 00:12:58,200 form is filled in. And this is the cool thing 249 00:12:58,840 --> 00:13:01,919 that you basically to that test. You just manually fill 250 00:13:01,919 --> 00:13:05,080 in that form once and you do that by using 251 00:13:05,159 --> 00:13:09,360 the code generator tool. You code gen the test by 252 00:13:09,399 --> 00:13:11,399 filling in that form, it's going to generate all that 253 00:13:11,480 --> 00:13:14,080 code for you, and then you just basically press play, 254 00:13:14,200 --> 00:13:16,960 press play and on your CI it just runs anytime 255 00:13:17,000 --> 00:13:19,919 the pull request is done in so if someone changes anything, 256 00:13:20,399 --> 00:13:23,120 it's going to run that and it saves so much 257 00:13:23,159 --> 00:13:26,279 time and it's so easy and quick to do it. Yeah. 258 00:13:26,320 --> 00:13:30,039 Speaker 1: So the thing that occurs to me about web testing 259 00:13:30,080 --> 00:13:33,559 tools like Playwright is that they have an advantage because 260 00:13:33,600 --> 00:13:38,000 they can inspect the HTML, which is just text. You know, 261 00:13:38,039 --> 00:13:40,440 they can inspect the output, whereas if you're trying to 262 00:13:40,480 --> 00:13:43,639 do that, say on a Windows forms application or graphical application, 263 00:13:44,200 --> 00:13:47,039 you have to do image you know, ocr for the 264 00:13:47,320 --> 00:13:50,240 for the text and image processing and all of that 265 00:13:50,320 --> 00:13:52,159 kind of stuff, and we just don't need to do 266 00:13:52,200 --> 00:13:55,399 that with you get. You can still do screenshot testing, right. 267 00:13:55,440 --> 00:13:57,279 You can say well, the screen should look like this, 268 00:13:58,080 --> 00:14:01,600 but you have that the webliner allows you to be 269 00:14:01,639 --> 00:14:02,559 a lot more accurate. 270 00:14:03,039 --> 00:14:05,120 Speaker 4: It brings it closer to the user. And what we're 271 00:14:05,120 --> 00:14:08,480 doing when we're testing Blaser applications, right, we're testing what 272 00:14:08,519 --> 00:14:12,039 the user sees, what the user does. Simple thing is 273 00:14:12,080 --> 00:14:14,519 testing dark mode and lightmode. This is the cool thing 274 00:14:14,600 --> 00:14:17,159 right nowadays everyone has to have their website in two colors, right, 275 00:14:17,960 --> 00:14:20,200 how can we test that? Well, we can test that 276 00:14:20,240 --> 00:14:22,720 the CSS class is there and that can be done 277 00:14:22,759 --> 00:14:25,600 true playwright, and then you can just easily have a test. Yeah, 278 00:14:25,639 --> 00:14:27,960 that's dark mode, light moode. That's a simple test. 279 00:14:28,039 --> 00:14:28,200 Speaker 3: Right. 280 00:14:28,279 --> 00:14:31,639 Speaker 4: You do you care? Well, maybe you should if that's 281 00:14:31,679 --> 00:14:35,879 important to you. What's more important is, you know, filling 282 00:14:35,919 --> 00:14:38,639 out the forms, making money, putting articles in a shopping car, 283 00:14:39,200 --> 00:14:43,279 actually purchasing things, and that's what the user does. What 284 00:14:43,320 --> 00:14:45,639 buttons does the user need to press to get to 285 00:14:46,039 --> 00:14:49,279 that payment? And if you can test that whole process 286 00:14:49,279 --> 00:14:51,519 from that start to finish, the money is going to 287 00:14:51,559 --> 00:14:52,080 be in your bank. 288 00:14:52,720 --> 00:14:56,279 Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, I mean lots of friction you can remove 289 00:14:56,279 --> 00:14:58,919 in that process. And turns out if it's easy to buy, 290 00:14:58,960 --> 00:15:02,440 people do buy more. So you know there's money to 291 00:15:02,480 --> 00:15:05,679 be made in creating good workflows that way, right. I 292 00:15:05,799 --> 00:15:08,240 just think these are the tools that help you detect 293 00:15:08,279 --> 00:15:10,759 where you're stumbling before you push it out there and 294 00:15:10,759 --> 00:15:11,759 start losing money on it. 295 00:15:11,799 --> 00:15:14,799 Speaker 1: Now. I use a tool called b unit from Egil 296 00:15:14,799 --> 00:15:20,159 Hanson for Blazer components. Does that work in concert with playwright? 297 00:15:20,440 --> 00:15:23,639 Is there something that does what b unit does in Playwright? 298 00:15:24,120 --> 00:15:28,399 What's the whole ecosystem look like with that? 299 00:15:29,399 --> 00:15:35,799 Speaker 4: So for component testing itself, we don't really support anything 300 00:15:35,840 --> 00:15:40,120 outside of the experimental, which is kind of you and 301 00:15:40,240 --> 00:15:42,039 like the component testing yourself. I'm not sure if you 302 00:15:42,080 --> 00:15:45,080 can put a Blazer thing inside of vat application that's 303 00:15:45,200 --> 00:15:49,320 something and push that up. That's something I've never tested out. 304 00:15:50,600 --> 00:15:53,600 But we're basically like, when it comes to a Blazer, 305 00:15:54,399 --> 00:15:57,519 you're testing what the user sees. That's already compiled, that's there, 306 00:15:57,600 --> 00:16:00,399 it's visual, it's on that front end. So you're coponents 307 00:16:00,440 --> 00:16:02,679 are making up a web page. Your components are making 308 00:16:02,720 --> 00:16:06,120 a story, and that story is taking you. It's more 309 00:16:06,159 --> 00:16:10,200 about the integration between those components. Sure, how they integrate 310 00:16:10,200 --> 00:16:13,360 together and when on the page they do what they're 311 00:16:13,399 --> 00:16:15,720 meant to do. That button is a component. For example, 312 00:16:15,759 --> 00:16:19,519 that shopping cart is a component, and that all interacts 313 00:16:19,559 --> 00:16:21,759 together to be able to get to that stage of 314 00:16:22,519 --> 00:16:25,360 filling out the form, to fill in your delivery address 315 00:16:25,399 --> 00:16:28,720 to get the product delivered to your home, etc. 316 00:16:29,240 --> 00:16:31,759 Speaker 1: So you can still a b unit test to test 317 00:16:31,799 --> 00:16:34,559 the individual components if you think you need to. But 318 00:16:34,679 --> 00:16:37,399 what you're saying is playwright works the macro level. It 319 00:16:37,519 --> 00:16:39,799 just works at the whole website. You fill in this form, 320 00:16:39,840 --> 00:16:42,679 you expect this result. If you don't get it, then 321 00:16:42,879 --> 00:16:43,759 the test breaks. 322 00:16:43,919 --> 00:16:46,320 Speaker 4: Yeah, Like think about it. The user doesn't care about 323 00:16:46,320 --> 00:16:49,399 your code, doesn't see your code. So unit tests is 324 00:16:49,480 --> 00:16:52,600 not covering what the user sees and does. It covers 325 00:16:52,639 --> 00:16:54,559 your code and is your code going to do the 326 00:16:54,679 --> 00:16:58,120 job right? But end to end test integation tests, they're 327 00:16:58,159 --> 00:17:02,240 covering what the use physically does in your website. And 328 00:17:02,320 --> 00:17:05,839 it's like manual testing years ago when I used to 329 00:17:05,880 --> 00:17:08,680 do this on a Friday right in a job ten 330 00:17:08,759 --> 00:17:12,200 years ago. Everyone stop, stop we are doing and start 331 00:17:12,359 --> 00:17:14,960 using the website as a user would use it. Go 332 00:17:15,000 --> 00:17:18,000 and start doing stuff right and then fill out issues. 333 00:17:18,039 --> 00:17:20,119 Oh this doesn't work, file boog, this doesn't work. File 334 00:17:20,119 --> 00:17:23,920 a bug. That's ridiculous doing that nowadays, and still people 335 00:17:23,960 --> 00:17:26,599 are doing that. Still people are paying manual people to 336 00:17:26,640 --> 00:17:29,759 press buttons, and that should not be happening. So Playwright 337 00:17:29,839 --> 00:17:33,160 is that manual person pressing the button. But that's much 338 00:17:33,200 --> 00:17:35,920 faster than that manual, physical person that would have done 339 00:17:35,960 --> 00:17:36,799 that ten years ago. 340 00:17:36,920 --> 00:17:38,519 Speaker 2: One of the things I run into when we start 341 00:17:38,559 --> 00:17:40,599 to build bigger websites is we have so many tests 342 00:17:40,640 --> 00:17:44,200 that it slows down the CICD pipeline. I've gone to 343 00:17:44,279 --> 00:17:47,440 great lengths to like break tests out across ponstible instances 344 00:17:47,440 --> 00:17:49,359 and things to try and shorten that time up. Is 345 00:17:49,400 --> 00:17:51,400 there tools in play right to make that easier. 346 00:17:51,640 --> 00:17:55,279 Speaker 4: Yeah, so's there's things you can do. Like basically, you've 347 00:17:55,279 --> 00:17:58,160 got to remember what's the slowest thing about testing when 348 00:17:58,200 --> 00:18:00,559 it comes to to Playwright, it's the brows right, It's 349 00:18:00,640 --> 00:18:04,519 it's you know, you're normally you should be testing as 350 00:18:04,599 --> 00:18:07,279 well your website across multiple browsers, you know, across the 351 00:18:07,319 --> 00:18:12,160 fire across Firefox, across Chromium. And once you're doing that, 352 00:18:12,200 --> 00:18:15,960 you're spinning up that headless browser. Right. There's headless means 353 00:18:15,960 --> 00:18:19,839 that there's no visual parts, there's no graphical interface, so 354 00:18:19,920 --> 00:18:22,319 on CI you don't need to see something. The CI 355 00:18:22,480 --> 00:18:26,279 basically spins up the browser without the actual graphical interface, 356 00:18:26,480 --> 00:18:29,559 but it's still spinning up a browser instance for your tests. 357 00:18:30,319 --> 00:18:33,559 And tests are running isolation, right, so that means you 358 00:18:33,559 --> 00:18:36,839 know there's a new browser instance being spun up every 359 00:18:36,880 --> 00:18:39,240 time there's a new test, because otherwise, you know your 360 00:18:39,240 --> 00:18:41,799 cookies would jump from the same if it was the 361 00:18:41,839 --> 00:18:43,839 same browser, right, and then you can messs of your 362 00:18:43,839 --> 00:18:47,559 test you have flaky tests, you'd go crazy. So when 363 00:18:47,559 --> 00:18:49,400 you have like a lot of tests, you're spinning up 364 00:18:49,400 --> 00:18:52,319 all these browser things. You can do a couple of things, right. 365 00:18:52,359 --> 00:18:57,400 You can go charting shot across multiple machines, which can 366 00:18:57,440 --> 00:18:59,160 be good and can be bad depending on how you 367 00:18:59,200 --> 00:19:02,720 set it up. Because if you shard too much, remember 368 00:19:02,839 --> 00:19:05,759 you've still got to download the browsers for that shard, right, 369 00:19:05,880 --> 00:19:08,759 So if you have eight shards, there's eight times you're 370 00:19:08,759 --> 00:19:11,880 going to do that. Are you saving time or are you? 371 00:19:11,920 --> 00:19:14,200 So sometimes you have to decide how many shards do 372 00:19:14,240 --> 00:19:17,640 I need and you've got to play around with those numbers. Now, 373 00:19:17,640 --> 00:19:21,400 another cool thing, cool thing that we have is the 374 00:19:21,440 --> 00:19:24,240 Microsoft Playright service, which is not the open source part 375 00:19:24,359 --> 00:19:28,759 of Playwright but the Azure part. So if you're in Azure, 376 00:19:28,880 --> 00:19:32,720 you can basically use cloud based browsers. So now the 377 00:19:32,759 --> 00:19:37,240 browsers that you normally are like downloading are in the cloud. 378 00:19:37,559 --> 00:19:39,039 And I know it's like we all talk about the 379 00:19:39,039 --> 00:19:41,039 cloud and we have to imagine this physical cloud and 380 00:19:41,039 --> 00:19:43,599 the browsers are up there, and you're basically sending your 381 00:19:43,640 --> 00:19:45,920 tests up to this cloud so it doesn't need to 382 00:19:45,960 --> 00:19:49,359 download anything. What that means is you're just running your 383 00:19:49,359 --> 00:19:52,599 tests and you're not doing the browser instance part, which 384 00:19:52,640 --> 00:19:55,279 saves a hell of a lot of time. Now, obviously 385 00:19:55,319 --> 00:19:58,440 this is an Azure feature, so it's it's costs money, 386 00:19:58,440 --> 00:20:00,839 of course, but you save my in the long run. 387 00:20:00,920 --> 00:20:04,200 If you're talking about scaling at an enterprise level, you're 388 00:20:04,240 --> 00:20:08,079 talking about large scale. You want to run I don't know, 389 00:20:08,160 --> 00:20:11,319 ten thousand tests and your pipeline is being slowed down 390 00:20:11,599 --> 00:20:13,400 forty five minutes is taken. You want to take it 391 00:20:13,440 --> 00:20:16,799 down to three minutes. You know, any company would pay for. 392 00:20:16,759 --> 00:20:19,400 Speaker 2: That, right, you know, if I'm running tests in the cloud, 393 00:20:19,480 --> 00:20:21,599 I'm paying for that. So the fact that you've made 394 00:20:21,599 --> 00:20:26,279 me a dedicated service for this purpose, that sounds good 395 00:20:26,279 --> 00:20:28,640 to me. That's just going to make fewer mistakes. 396 00:20:28,920 --> 00:20:31,799 Speaker 1: Is that ratio like forty five minutes turns to three 397 00:20:31,880 --> 00:20:32,759 minutes typical. 398 00:20:33,359 --> 00:20:35,079 Speaker 4: No, that's just me making up a number from the 399 00:20:35,119 --> 00:20:38,279 top of my head, because obviously everyone's tests are different 400 00:20:38,680 --> 00:20:42,279 and you'd have to test it out. But the amount 401 00:20:42,440 --> 00:20:45,640 of time saving across all the examples that we've kind 402 00:20:45,680 --> 00:20:47,640 of run it on and then the clients that are 403 00:20:47,720 --> 00:20:50,279 using it in the feedback they've been given us is 404 00:20:50,279 --> 00:20:52,920 the amount of time. No one is the same, right, 405 00:20:52,960 --> 00:20:57,240 but everyone has saved immense amount of time. And then 406 00:20:57,319 --> 00:20:59,799 also what's really important to a lot of people as 407 00:20:59,799 --> 00:21:02,680 well is being able to see, like, you know, to 408 00:21:02,759 --> 00:21:04,440 see those those tests in a kind of like a 409 00:21:04,519 --> 00:21:07,160 dashboard style, to be able to go back and forward 410 00:21:08,119 --> 00:21:10,039 and then like have a report, right and see a 411 00:21:10,079 --> 00:21:13,319 report of like this is what happened, this is where 412 00:21:13,319 --> 00:21:16,799 it failed, and have a trace of that test on 413 00:21:16,839 --> 00:21:19,279 your you know CEE I, on your on the on 414 00:21:19,359 --> 00:21:21,279 in the cloud, so that basically you don't have to 415 00:21:21,759 --> 00:21:25,920 you know, go to local and locally spin up that 416 00:21:25,920 --> 00:21:28,279 that trace file and then debug it. You can basically 417 00:21:28,480 --> 00:21:29,640 almost debugget in the cloud. 418 00:21:29,720 --> 00:21:29,839 Speaker 1: Right. 419 00:21:31,039 --> 00:21:34,400 Speaker 4: But yeah, so scaleability was an issue, and we solve 420 00:21:34,440 --> 00:21:36,799 that issue because we also need to solve that issue 421 00:21:36,799 --> 00:21:38,599 because otherwise we're losing time. 422 00:21:38,759 --> 00:21:39,559 Speaker 1: That's great news. 423 00:21:39,680 --> 00:21:42,160 Speaker 2: So testing as a service is that where we're going. 424 00:21:42,440 --> 00:21:44,880 Speaker 4: I think we just need to fix testing in general. 425 00:21:44,920 --> 00:21:48,559 And I'll be very truthful, we do not have it 426 00:21:48,640 --> 00:21:51,240 all figured out in Microsoft. We're still learning because we 427 00:21:51,279 --> 00:21:54,079 are so many people, so many teams. We're like so 428 00:21:54,160 --> 00:21:56,839 many mini companies if you if you kind of think 429 00:21:56,839 --> 00:22:00,400 about it that way, and everyone is trying to like, 430 00:22:00,559 --> 00:22:03,880 you know, deliver products. Right, We've got a lot of products, right, 431 00:22:04,799 --> 00:22:06,440 how do we test all these and how do we 432 00:22:06,480 --> 00:22:09,920 create a better solution across Microsoft? And then how do 433 00:22:09,960 --> 00:22:12,920 we let you all use that solution because if we 434 00:22:13,079 --> 00:22:15,559 just test it into in ourselves, we don't get the 435 00:22:15,680 --> 00:22:17,920 value from like, oh but what about this feature and 436 00:22:17,960 --> 00:22:20,680 we need this so, you know, making sure that Playwright 437 00:22:20,759 --> 00:22:24,480 is open source and then having those other services for 438 00:22:24,559 --> 00:22:29,000 the enterprise scale really helps us to make a better product. 439 00:22:29,079 --> 00:22:33,200 But yeah, we're not saying that we have everything sold 440 00:22:33,319 --> 00:22:36,599 in Microsoft and we know everything. No, we're building things 441 00:22:36,599 --> 00:22:39,599 as we go along, and we require like the Playwright 442 00:22:39,640 --> 00:22:43,400 service is going to the reporting is in basically GA 443 00:22:43,759 --> 00:22:46,960 this week, Right, It's like literally, it's new, so we 444 00:22:46,960 --> 00:22:48,799 don't have it all figured out because someone might come 445 00:22:48,799 --> 00:22:51,079 along and say, oh, we want this feature, Well cool, 446 00:22:51,519 --> 00:22:53,720 tell us let us know. We'll build that feature for you, 447 00:22:53,839 --> 00:22:56,440 because we might also think that feature is necessary for 448 00:22:56,480 --> 00:23:02,400 other people. But yeah, everything is being built around making 449 00:23:02,440 --> 00:23:06,640 lives easier, making testing easier. I think easier is our 450 00:23:06,640 --> 00:23:09,240 big word here. Easier and getting more people to test. 451 00:23:09,480 --> 00:23:11,960 Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely, And I could see it's still in preview too, 452 00:23:12,000 --> 00:23:13,720 So it's just a hint that you know, you're all 453 00:23:13,839 --> 00:23:16,720 learning by how people use it and what it's for. 454 00:23:17,720 --> 00:23:20,079 But I appreciate the idea that you know, this is 455 00:23:20,119 --> 00:23:23,200 the same angle as why would I build a bunch 456 00:23:23,240 --> 00:23:25,599 of virtual machines if I can use an app service? 457 00:23:25,759 --> 00:23:29,440 Why would I, you know, deploy my own caching if 458 00:23:29,480 --> 00:23:32,799 I could use a reddish cash service like you go 459 00:23:32,839 --> 00:23:37,319 as far up the stack as he can. That's cool, 460 00:23:37,400 --> 00:23:40,240 that's I'm excited to see that, just because yeah, I 461 00:23:40,279 --> 00:23:42,359 don't want to build these things. I'd like you to 462 00:23:42,359 --> 00:23:44,720 do it for me please and charge me by the 463 00:23:44,799 --> 00:23:46,440 test exactly. 464 00:23:46,480 --> 00:23:48,039 Speaker 4: And I think if you have that many tests and 465 00:23:48,079 --> 00:23:50,200 you're you're paying for that means you know you've got 466 00:23:50,240 --> 00:23:53,039 some good coverage going on there that it's worth paying for, right, 467 00:23:53,920 --> 00:23:54,720 it was just made. 468 00:23:54,519 --> 00:23:56,240 Speaker 2: Too many pages, you know, Yeah? 469 00:23:56,400 --> 00:23:58,519 Speaker 4: Maybe maybe. 470 00:24:00,079 --> 00:24:02,599 Speaker 2: Well, I mean it's been two years as you were 471 00:24:02,680 --> 00:24:04,799 on more or less, so it's lead to see Playwright 472 00:24:04,799 --> 00:24:06,599 continuing do evolve Like that's cool. 473 00:24:07,000 --> 00:24:11,839 Speaker 1: Yeah, so you have a special love for JavaScript frameworks. 474 00:24:12,920 --> 00:24:18,160 How does Yeah, that's writing your bio. I'm not hating, Nana, 475 00:24:18,200 --> 00:24:21,920 I'm just reading here, reading your bio. So how does 476 00:24:22,079 --> 00:24:27,960 a JavaScript play into Playwright? If at all is any JavaScript? 477 00:24:28,359 --> 00:24:31,279 Are there entry points for JavaScript in Playwright? If you 478 00:24:31,319 --> 00:24:35,519 want to do some custom things? How does you know? 479 00:24:35,680 --> 00:24:37,079 That's the question, I guess. 480 00:24:37,759 --> 00:24:40,640 Speaker 4: I think what's important to understand about Playwright is that 481 00:24:40,720 --> 00:24:43,400 it can be used across four languages. Right, So if 482 00:24:43,400 --> 00:24:46,720 you were like myself, I'm a JavaScript developer or typescript 483 00:24:46,759 --> 00:24:49,960 developer now is what the cool kids say, then I 484 00:24:50,000 --> 00:24:52,799 can basically use that language because that's what I'm familiar with, 485 00:24:52,920 --> 00:24:55,279 That's what my website is built in. So I'm naturally 486 00:24:55,279 --> 00:24:57,839 going to write my tests using the language that I know. 487 00:24:58,559 --> 00:25:01,759 But Carlin Richard, you're dot net people, right, and you 488 00:25:01,960 --> 00:25:06,440 you're c sharp probably better than JavaScript, and your website 489 00:25:06,480 --> 00:25:08,640 is probably built in Blazer, so you're gonna want to 490 00:25:08,640 --> 00:25:11,200 write your tests in c sharp and not in JavaScript. 491 00:25:11,240 --> 00:25:14,240 And I totally understand that. And that's why Playwright is 492 00:25:14,279 --> 00:25:16,680 so cool because you can just do that, because you 493 00:25:16,720 --> 00:25:19,519 can use Playwright as a dot net developer. And I 494 00:25:19,559 --> 00:25:21,279 know this is dot net rocks, but let's talk about 495 00:25:21,279 --> 00:25:23,240 the Java people and the Pithon people because they can 496 00:25:23,359 --> 00:25:27,440 also write tests using Python and using Java and it's 497 00:25:27,480 --> 00:25:30,119 the same API, and you don't have to learn new tricks, 498 00:25:30,160 --> 00:25:33,160 and you know, you can have one company, which we do. 499 00:25:33,200 --> 00:25:35,920 We're like in Microsoft, we have like you know, various 500 00:25:36,119 --> 00:25:39,839 and we're using different languages depending on the teams and 501 00:25:39,920 --> 00:25:42,599 depending on what we're testing and what people are comfortable with. 502 00:25:42,960 --> 00:25:45,359 So we use dot Net, use Pithon, we use Java, 503 00:25:45,359 --> 00:25:49,160 we use JavaScript. There are differences, of course, right, I'm 504 00:25:49,160 --> 00:25:51,599 not going to lie and say it's the same across 505 00:25:51,599 --> 00:25:53,759 the board. It can't be the same across the board 506 00:25:54,160 --> 00:25:57,960 for various reasons. Because test runners MS test, you can't 507 00:25:57,960 --> 00:26:01,519 compare the MS test to the pie test for example, 508 00:26:01,559 --> 00:26:04,920 they have different stuff, right, And in JavaScript, we built 509 00:26:04,920 --> 00:26:06,440 the test runner and play right, so it's a little 510 00:26:06,480 --> 00:26:08,559 bit different. We've got a little bit more leeway on, 511 00:26:08,960 --> 00:26:10,319 you know, doing certain things. 512 00:26:10,400 --> 00:26:12,160 Speaker 1: And I just want to say for the record that 513 00:26:12,440 --> 00:26:19,359 some of our best friends, right, JavaScript, Python and Java. Okay, 514 00:26:19,400 --> 00:26:22,279 so isn't that what they say usually when somebody uses 515 00:26:22,359 --> 00:26:27,359 you of anti say that some of our best friends. 516 00:26:28,920 --> 00:26:31,720 Speaker 2: But either way, you are testing a web app, you're 517 00:26:31,759 --> 00:26:33,839 just able to write the code for the test in 518 00:26:33,960 --> 00:26:34,480 c sharp. 519 00:26:34,599 --> 00:26:34,839 Speaker 1: Yeah. 520 00:26:34,960 --> 00:26:39,000 Speaker 4: Yeah, because playwright just sees like what's out on the website, right, 521 00:26:39,000 --> 00:26:41,599 what's what's being produced? The what the you know you 522 00:26:41,759 --> 00:26:44,240 inspect code, right, and so you can see what the 523 00:26:44,319 --> 00:26:48,319 user can see that accessibility role, right. It just sees 524 00:26:48,359 --> 00:26:49,960 that that is a role of a button, and it's 525 00:26:50,039 --> 00:26:53,640 looking for what a screen reader would read out or 526 00:26:53,680 --> 00:26:55,839 what a user would see. You sees a button and 527 00:26:55,880 --> 00:26:58,000 it clicks that button, and it does not care if 528 00:26:58,000 --> 00:27:01,839 your button is written in blazer React you write heighten whatever. 529 00:27:02,160 --> 00:27:05,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, no, and right, you know you don't want to 530 00:27:05,799 --> 00:27:09,759 make writing the test the barrier, exactly like you wanted 531 00:27:09,799 --> 00:27:12,480 to be as easy as possible. So I appreciate that 532 00:27:12,519 --> 00:27:16,000 writing the language you want. I could write tests in Python. 533 00:27:16,079 --> 00:27:18,119 That's one way to slow myself way down. 534 00:27:19,240 --> 00:27:22,279 Speaker 4: It could be fun there. You might learn something, maybe. 535 00:27:22,119 --> 00:27:24,480 Speaker 2: It's interesting you think about writing in different languages for 536 00:27:24,519 --> 00:27:25,240 different tasks. 537 00:27:25,319 --> 00:27:28,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, that's cool. So break time. Want to take 538 00:27:28,880 --> 00:27:29,119 a break. 539 00:27:29,279 --> 00:27:29,960 Speaker 2: Let's take a little break. 540 00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:32,400 Speaker 1: All right, We'll be right back after these very important messages. 541 00:27:33,440 --> 00:27:36,359 Did you know you can easily migrate asp net web 542 00:27:36,400 --> 00:27:40,480 apps to Windows containers on Aws. Use the app to 543 00:27:40,599 --> 00:27:45,000 Container tool to containerize your iis websites and deploy to 544 00:27:45,039 --> 00:27:50,759 AWS managed container services with or without Kubernetes. 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Check 554 00:28:37,119 --> 00:28:41,440 out demos dot textcontrol dot com for live online demos 555 00:28:41,720 --> 00:28:45,599 and see it in action. And we're back dot NetRocks on. 556 00:28:45,720 --> 00:28:48,759 Carl Franklin. That's my buddy Richard Campbell and our friend 557 00:28:48,920 --> 00:28:52,160 w O'Brien. We're talking about testing with playwright and just 558 00:28:52,200 --> 00:28:54,559 a reminder that if you don't like those ads and 559 00:28:54,599 --> 00:28:56,720 you don't want them, you can pay five bucks a 560 00:28:56,759 --> 00:28:59,559 month and be a patron and you can get a 561 00:28:59,599 --> 00:29:03,880 feed with ad free shows. All right, So we were 562 00:29:03,920 --> 00:29:06,880 talking about we're talking about all sorts of stuff and 563 00:29:06,920 --> 00:29:10,720 testing in different languages. But snapshot testing is something that 564 00:29:11,000 --> 00:29:16,480 I learned about from Simon Crop. And so the idea 565 00:29:16,599 --> 00:29:20,480 is that you have you have these following inputs and 566 00:29:20,519 --> 00:29:24,240 you expect the following output and I get is that 567 00:29:24,559 --> 00:29:31,200 primarily how playwright works or is it even simpler than that? 568 00:29:31,880 --> 00:29:35,880 Speaker 4: So it's just another part of something playwright can do. Right, 569 00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:39,839 So snapshots is like, you know, you're testing that something 570 00:29:39,880 --> 00:29:43,119 looks the same that for example, this is really good 571 00:29:43,119 --> 00:29:45,279 for Wednesday, like those banners up here at the top 572 00:29:45,279 --> 00:29:47,599 of your you know, the Black Friday banners that appear, 573 00:29:47,920 --> 00:29:51,119 and then what I like is there and you want 574 00:29:51,160 --> 00:29:53,880 it to be there, but you wanted to, I don't know, 575 00:29:53,960 --> 00:29:56,559 make sure it's not there after Black Friday eatin doesn't 576 00:29:56,559 --> 00:29:58,440 make sense. So you could, like you know, write a 577 00:29:58,480 --> 00:30:02,319 test that then I don't know, shows the banner, and 578 00:30:02,359 --> 00:30:04,680 then make sure that it is exactly the same as 579 00:30:04,680 --> 00:30:08,240 a banner right on the website. But yeah, there's a 580 00:30:08,279 --> 00:30:11,759 lot of people using snapshot testing or visual regression testing 581 00:30:12,200 --> 00:30:16,200 as a whole ballgame. It's not easy, right because because 582 00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:18,559 across browser as well, the slight little differences, so you've 583 00:30:18,559 --> 00:30:20,559 got to, like, you know, also make sure your pixel 584 00:30:20,599 --> 00:30:23,839 differences are kind of the same, because Safari will do 585 00:30:23,960 --> 00:30:26,279 something a little bit different to Firefox because that's just 586 00:30:26,319 --> 00:30:31,400 how they do things. But definitely, I think if people 587 00:30:31,440 --> 00:30:33,599 are getting started with testing, I wouldn't say, go and 588 00:30:33,839 --> 00:30:36,640 make sure your website looks exactly the same as the 589 00:30:36,680 --> 00:30:40,359 snapshots like everything, because you'll end up possibly things will 590 00:30:40,359 --> 00:30:43,880 fail if you change that button. You've got to re 591 00:30:43,880 --> 00:30:48,079 recreate those snapshots each time. So I would always say, like, 592 00:30:48,200 --> 00:30:51,039 that's an extra, that's great and it's cool, but first 593 00:30:51,279 --> 00:30:53,559 make sure that your user can do what the user 594 00:30:53,599 --> 00:30:56,400 should be doing. Whatever it is on that website is 595 00:30:56,440 --> 00:30:58,720 going to bring you money or make you click that 596 00:30:59,039 --> 00:31:03,680 patron button that you talked about, whatever it is, test that. 597 00:31:03,960 --> 00:31:07,559 Then do the accessibility testing, the regression testing, the API testing, 598 00:31:08,160 --> 00:31:10,480 there's a whole ballgame of things that you can. 599 00:31:10,359 --> 00:31:14,640 Speaker 2: Explore, sure, right, but I mean the snapshot test is 600 00:31:14,680 --> 00:31:17,839 really about a look and feel thing rather than a 601 00:31:17,880 --> 00:31:18,759 functionality thing. 602 00:31:19,119 --> 00:31:23,119 Speaker 4: Yeah, it's about that it looks the same basically that 603 00:31:23,160 --> 00:31:26,799 it hasn't changed that the designer didn't put a CSS 604 00:31:26,839 --> 00:31:28,480 hidden on a button and now they can't see the 605 00:31:28,519 --> 00:31:32,000 button for example. Right, But then if that was the case, 606 00:31:32,039 --> 00:31:34,559 player wouldn't be able to click the button, so that 607 00:31:34,640 --> 00:31:35,359 test would fail. 608 00:31:35,480 --> 00:31:37,319 Speaker 2: It would still break anyway, exactly. 609 00:31:37,559 --> 00:31:40,039 Speaker 4: But sometimes there are times when visual aggression testing is 610 00:31:40,079 --> 00:31:44,799 really important, especially when using I don't know when they say, 611 00:31:44,839 --> 00:31:46,839 like a lot of advertisements on your website and you 612 00:31:46,880 --> 00:31:49,799 want to remove those and just see what the website 613 00:31:49,839 --> 00:31:52,319 looks like out those You can mask those kind of things. 614 00:31:52,559 --> 00:31:55,559 Speaker 2: Well, no websites are so twitchy these days, right, Like 615 00:31:56,119 --> 00:31:59,000 thank goodness for pie hole. Otherwise there's stuff flying at 616 00:31:59,039 --> 00:31:59,960 you in all directions. 617 00:32:00,480 --> 00:32:03,279 Speaker 1: And you can also exclude things like you say, I 618 00:32:03,319 --> 00:32:06,119 want this page to look like such and such with 619 00:32:06,240 --> 00:32:08,720 the following data that it because we put in a 620 00:32:08,759 --> 00:32:12,480 certain input. But you know, little things like the date 621 00:32:13,079 --> 00:32:14,920 in the time, we don't want to We don't care 622 00:32:14,920 --> 00:32:16,200 about that that can change. 623 00:32:17,039 --> 00:32:19,519 Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm kind of staggered at how it would do 624 00:32:19,559 --> 00:32:22,640 those visual representations you just talked about sort of headless 625 00:32:22,680 --> 00:32:25,720 browsing where there is no visual component, but is do 626 00:32:25,799 --> 00:32:27,839 something different when it wants to create a visualization. 627 00:32:28,640 --> 00:32:31,480 Speaker 4: Well, it's just like taking a photo and then like 628 00:32:31,880 --> 00:32:35,200 it takes a photo kind I'm just doing like an 629 00:32:35,200 --> 00:32:37,799 example here, right, you take your phone out and you 630 00:32:37,839 --> 00:32:40,920 take a photograph of your screen of the website, and 631 00:32:40,960 --> 00:32:44,200 then you change your code, and then it takes another 632 00:32:44,200 --> 00:32:47,119 photograph and then it compares those two overlays one in 633 00:32:47,160 --> 00:32:49,680 front of the other, and it kind of sees like 634 00:32:50,279 --> 00:32:53,039 is there a pixel difference? Has the button moved over there? 635 00:32:53,079 --> 00:32:55,839 What's it expecting and where is the button now? And 636 00:32:55,880 --> 00:32:58,920 I'm using button as an example, but it could be anything, right. 637 00:32:58,720 --> 00:33:00,559 Speaker 2: But it is pixel perfect it. 638 00:33:00,839 --> 00:33:04,200 Speaker 4: Yeah, but you can adjust that, right, You can say 639 00:33:04,240 --> 00:33:07,079 I want it to be like so many pixels away 640 00:33:07,160 --> 00:33:10,759 because I don't know it's an animation that's gonna like, 641 00:33:10,880 --> 00:33:12,680 you know, I don't do stuff, and you know you 642 00:33:12,720 --> 00:33:13,960 want it to be able to move a little bit 643 00:33:14,079 --> 00:33:15,119 or whatever. 644 00:33:15,559 --> 00:33:18,880 Speaker 1: So I wasn't really thinking of taking screenshots, screenshot testing, 645 00:33:18,920 --> 00:33:21,920 snapshot testing something I learned from Simon because he has 646 00:33:21,920 --> 00:33:24,759 a tool called Verify, and it's really just testing the 647 00:33:25,039 --> 00:33:30,039 HTML output of a page. So like a form, Right, 648 00:33:30,079 --> 00:33:32,400 you fill in a form, you press a button, it's 649 00:33:32,440 --> 00:33:35,599 going to give you a summary of that data. And 650 00:33:36,319 --> 00:33:39,799 that is what it tests that the output of this 651 00:33:40,119 --> 00:33:44,680 matches what we expected to match. So I think I 652 00:33:44,759 --> 00:33:46,440 think we might be talking about two different things. 653 00:33:46,480 --> 00:33:48,200 Speaker 4: We're probably talking about different Yeah. 654 00:33:48,079 --> 00:33:49,880 Speaker 2: But it is that in that case, it is literally 655 00:33:49,920 --> 00:33:52,799 a text comparison to the HTML. Yeah, Like if I 656 00:33:52,839 --> 00:33:56,039 was doing visual representation comparison, I could write the page 657 00:33:56,079 --> 00:33:58,519 different ways but have to present the same way. 658 00:33:58,839 --> 00:33:59,079 Speaker 1: Yep. 659 00:33:59,240 --> 00:34:01,640 Speaker 2: Not that I'm good enough to do that, but you 660 00:34:01,680 --> 00:34:04,480 know that would be interesting. 661 00:34:04,640 --> 00:34:06,319 Speaker 1: Yeah, you want to make sure that this did with 662 00:34:06,359 --> 00:34:11,079 this ID has this content right, which is different than 663 00:34:11,800 --> 00:34:16,000 you know, comparing uh screenshat, which is also valuable. I 664 00:34:16,000 --> 00:34:20,280 mean absolutely, There's just so many ways to go about testing. 665 00:34:20,639 --> 00:34:23,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm just wondering about the brittleness of tests, right, 666 00:34:23,559 --> 00:34:26,239 Like most people dive into testing the first round of 667 00:34:26,280 --> 00:34:28,519 tests they build. The next time they do enough to 668 00:34:28,599 --> 00:34:30,760 do the app, every single test is broken and they right, 669 00:34:30,840 --> 00:34:31,679 why did I do this? 670 00:34:32,599 --> 00:34:32,880 Speaker 1: Yep? 671 00:34:33,079 --> 00:34:36,920 Speaker 2: And you Debbie jump in on this, like, how do 672 00:34:36,960 --> 00:34:39,119 you write non brittle tests? 673 00:34:41,320 --> 00:34:45,039 Speaker 4: I think you just have to constantly test. You've got 674 00:34:45,039 --> 00:34:50,079 to like make sure that I don't know, I think, 675 00:34:51,159 --> 00:34:53,199 I think use the tools that are there. I would say, 676 00:34:53,239 --> 00:34:55,519 use the tools that are the code generator, right, the 677 00:34:55,519 --> 00:34:57,559 code gen will generate the test view. I think a 678 00:34:57,559 --> 00:35:00,920 lot of people going back the previous days would have 679 00:35:00,960 --> 00:35:03,559 wrote their test using things like XPath, using things like 680 00:35:03,639 --> 00:35:07,000 CSS selectors, right, And that was the right thing to 681 00:35:07,000 --> 00:35:10,039 do back then. But our front end, and I don't 682 00:35:10,039 --> 00:35:12,360 know about you guys in the Blazer world, but we 683 00:35:12,519 --> 00:35:16,320 CHANGEAVASCRIPT are known for We're changing things all the time, right, 684 00:35:16,400 --> 00:35:21,079 We're constantly like changing, so our htmil is changing. And 685 00:35:21,199 --> 00:35:22,880 if you're going to change that, the x path is 686 00:35:22,880 --> 00:35:24,639 going to change, which means your test is now going 687 00:35:24,679 --> 00:35:27,760 to be brittle. It's going to break just changing your 688 00:35:27,760 --> 00:35:31,199 CSS class. New developer comes along and he changes a 689 00:35:31,199 --> 00:35:34,000 CS class. If your website and your tests break, well, 690 00:35:34,440 --> 00:35:37,199 that's not good, right, So you need to avoid things 691 00:35:37,320 --> 00:35:40,079 like that. And the way to do that is, you know, 692 00:35:40,199 --> 00:35:44,039 use the test generator tools to generate those locators. Locators 693 00:35:44,079 --> 00:35:46,320 is how you locate an element on the page. So 694 00:35:46,360 --> 00:35:48,480 how do I all locate that button on the page. 695 00:35:48,840 --> 00:35:51,280 You use a get by roll button, and that button 696 00:35:51,920 --> 00:35:55,519 has a name called submit, and that is tested. It's 697 00:35:55,559 --> 00:35:59,559 also tested for accessibility, and it's easier than for you 698 00:35:59,639 --> 00:36:01,480 to go out and just do whatever you want with 699 00:36:01,519 --> 00:36:03,360 that button, change the CSS of it, put it in 700 00:36:03,440 --> 00:36:05,880 a different place. Play right's going to look for that 701 00:36:06,280 --> 00:36:09,480 button with a roll of button call submit, and it 702 00:36:09,480 --> 00:36:11,159 doesn't care where it does in your page because that's 703 00:36:11,159 --> 00:36:13,480 not important. What's important is that the user can click it, 704 00:36:14,039 --> 00:36:16,039 and the user can get to that next section of 705 00:36:16,039 --> 00:36:17,679 the page or whatever it needs to do with it. 706 00:36:17,960 --> 00:36:20,400 So I think making sure you test as close to 707 00:36:20,440 --> 00:36:24,719 the user as possible will save a lot of problems 708 00:36:24,840 --> 00:36:26,840 in the long run when it comes to brittle tests. 709 00:36:27,360 --> 00:36:30,639 Speaker 1: M So instead of on Fridays you guys all get 710 00:36:30,679 --> 00:36:33,679 together and push buttons, now you're getting together and updating 711 00:36:33,679 --> 00:36:36,119 your tests or maybe you're doing that every time you 712 00:36:36,199 --> 00:36:39,000 check in something, right, yeah, and make sure your tests 713 00:36:39,000 --> 00:36:40,000 are working. 714 00:36:40,119 --> 00:36:42,920 Speaker 4: And what's really cool is is like the code Generator 715 00:36:42,960 --> 00:36:45,519 tool is very cool because you literally like it launches 716 00:36:45,639 --> 00:36:47,519 up a browser window, right, and you put in your 717 00:36:47,559 --> 00:36:50,360 website address and you start using a use as a 718 00:36:50,440 --> 00:36:53,119 user would, and you generate that code, and then you've 719 00:36:53,119 --> 00:36:56,119 got tools like get up copilot, right, and you can 720 00:36:56,159 --> 00:36:58,639 do really funky things at copilot because you can turn 721 00:36:58,679 --> 00:37:01,400 around and then say a test step for my tests, 722 00:37:01,440 --> 00:37:03,119 and it's going to like literally take the code that 723 00:37:03,159 --> 00:37:05,159 you've just written, that you've just generated, actually you haven't 724 00:37:05,159 --> 00:37:06,960 written it, you've just generated, and it's going to put 725 00:37:06,960 --> 00:37:08,280 it into test steps for you, and it's going to 726 00:37:08,320 --> 00:37:10,199 do all these kind of other stuff that you want 727 00:37:10,239 --> 00:37:14,559 to do it or put it into a described block 728 00:37:14,760 --> 00:37:17,320 or you know, you can help get a copilot can 729 00:37:17,360 --> 00:37:20,719 also help you to improve the code. So as a developer, 730 00:37:20,719 --> 00:37:23,719 you're not sitting there just like writing the boring parts 731 00:37:23,719 --> 00:37:26,119 of testing. You're using the tools to your advantage. 732 00:37:26,400 --> 00:37:26,800 Speaker 2: Mm hmm. 733 00:37:27,199 --> 00:37:27,440 Speaker 1: Good. 734 00:37:27,719 --> 00:37:31,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think definitely I remember in Strange Loop. 735 00:37:32,000 --> 00:37:34,760 I think the third go around of writing tests for 736 00:37:34,920 --> 00:37:38,079 Strange Loo, we've gotten better at writing tests that just 737 00:37:38,119 --> 00:37:40,880 we're going to be more tolerant, like you're still checking 738 00:37:40,880 --> 00:37:43,199 the value the way you want to, but you're not 739 00:37:43,320 --> 00:37:48,000 fussing over you know, unnecessary elements of that. That means 740 00:37:48,000 --> 00:37:50,800 that the slightest change in the test fails. Yeah. I 741 00:37:51,280 --> 00:37:54,599 think it's really an art to write good tests and 742 00:37:54,639 --> 00:37:57,239 stuff that will give you check the stuff you need 743 00:37:57,239 --> 00:38:02,599 to check without being infrastructure where minor changes the things 744 00:38:02,719 --> 00:38:04,000 just derail all the tests. 745 00:38:04,159 --> 00:38:06,199 Speaker 4: I think that's the difference between unit testing, right, whereas 746 00:38:06,239 --> 00:38:09,920 unit testing really is so close to the code that 747 00:38:09,960 --> 00:38:12,079 it's like you change something in the code or your 748 00:38:12,119 --> 00:38:15,599 test is going to break. With play right, really, you 749 00:38:15,880 --> 00:38:17,880 can change something in the code and your test shouldn't 750 00:38:17,880 --> 00:38:21,199 break unless you change, say, like what the user sees 751 00:38:21,239 --> 00:38:24,480 and instead of a submit button, you put upload, and 752 00:38:25,039 --> 00:38:27,199 now it's going to like look for submit and it 753 00:38:27,239 --> 00:38:31,800 finds upload because that they messed up the translation or whatever, or. 754 00:38:31,760 --> 00:38:34,920 Speaker 2: You've removed I or you've removed a field or like you. 755 00:38:35,039 --> 00:38:37,920 I mean, there's also good test fails where it's like 756 00:38:38,000 --> 00:38:39,800 I made this change and the test shows that I 757 00:38:39,920 --> 00:38:42,400 made this change. Now I can remove the test or 758 00:38:42,519 --> 00:38:46,360 change the test. Yes, I don't mind it when it 759 00:38:46,400 --> 00:38:49,440 is clear on stuff. What I mind is, hey, you know, 760 00:38:49,480 --> 00:38:51,760 we wrote three hundred tests around this set of pages, 761 00:38:51,800 --> 00:38:56,079 and I changed this CSS structure and every test is 762 00:38:56,159 --> 00:38:56,880 vailing now. 763 00:38:57,280 --> 00:38:59,320 Speaker 4: And that's the difference between unit tests, right, because you 764 00:38:59,440 --> 00:39:01,800 write that test and then you can't really see what's 765 00:39:01,840 --> 00:39:05,000 going on, right, you're stuck in code land. But in Playwright, 766 00:39:05,039 --> 00:39:07,360 when you have that failing test, you spin up a 767 00:39:07,480 --> 00:39:10,880 trace of your test, and that's like basically be able 768 00:39:10,880 --> 00:39:15,440 to go think of a video, but better so a 769 00:39:15,599 --> 00:39:19,119 video with dev tools, a video that you can manually 770 00:39:19,199 --> 00:39:22,000 step between every single step and go back and forward 771 00:39:22,039 --> 00:39:24,679 in time at your own pace, and have a DMB 772 00:39:24,719 --> 00:39:27,400 snapshot that you can just pop out and inspect the 773 00:39:27,400 --> 00:39:30,519 dev tools and say, right, I know what happened here. 774 00:39:31,280 --> 00:39:34,159 Somebody puts CSS hidden. I'm just gonna use that example 775 00:39:34,199 --> 00:39:37,639 because that actually happened to me on one of them 776 00:39:37,639 --> 00:39:40,199 that I was testing on the podcast website, and it 777 00:39:40,280 --> 00:39:42,920 put CSS hitting them playright couldn't find it because it 778 00:39:43,000 --> 00:39:45,559 isn't visible to the user. So if the user can 779 00:39:45,679 --> 00:39:48,960 click it, but the code is there, the code didn't change. 780 00:39:49,000 --> 00:39:51,000 The CSS change and the CSOs could have been in 781 00:39:51,000 --> 00:39:53,360 a different file to the code, right well. 782 00:39:53,360 --> 00:39:54,840 Speaker 2: And so that could have gone the other way. Right, 783 00:39:54,880 --> 00:39:57,280 you've hid it the test pass and you deploy it, 784 00:39:57,320 --> 00:40:01,000 but the users can't work that. Yeah, you want to 785 00:40:01,000 --> 00:40:03,239 be able to catch that too. It's it's it's always 786 00:40:03,239 --> 00:40:03,960 going to be a battle. 787 00:40:04,199 --> 00:40:07,920 Speaker 1: Can can Playwright penetrate to the level where it can 788 00:40:07,960 --> 00:40:11,719 see components of the shadow? Don Yeah, it just works. 789 00:40:12,320 --> 00:40:14,079 Speaker 4: It just works, iphrames, it just works. 790 00:40:14,239 --> 00:40:18,679 Speaker 1: Just wow. Not well that was a simple answer. 791 00:40:19,639 --> 00:40:21,400 Speaker 4: Sorry, I try to make it more complicated. 792 00:40:22,000 --> 00:40:27,079 Speaker 1: Yes, no, yes, no question, I can't tell. That's great. Yeah, 793 00:40:27,079 --> 00:40:29,039 that's great because that that has been a problem. 794 00:40:28,760 --> 00:40:30,880 Speaker 4: In the past, you know it has. That's why we 795 00:40:30,920 --> 00:40:33,599 had to solve it. Because you know, problems need to 796 00:40:33,599 --> 00:40:34,119 be solved. 797 00:40:34,480 --> 00:40:34,880 Speaker 1: Yeah. 798 00:40:35,039 --> 00:40:37,559 Speaker 2: Do you find that developers are using playwright in their 799 00:40:37,639 --> 00:40:40,000 local cycle or is this purely part of the c 800 00:40:40,119 --> 00:40:42,159 i CD pipeline. 801 00:40:42,519 --> 00:40:45,760 Speaker 4: I think it has to be both, because you need to. 802 00:40:46,559 --> 00:40:49,840 I always think that unless a website is finished, which 803 00:40:49,920 --> 00:40:54,360 I've very rarely seen, what is product finished exactly exactly, 804 00:40:55,119 --> 00:40:57,519 So unless it's something that you are never going to 805 00:40:57,519 --> 00:40:59,159 touch ever again in your life and you're going to 806 00:40:59,199 --> 00:41:02,360 write those tests and it's just on CICD for whatever reason. 807 00:41:02,400 --> 00:41:04,719 But no, nothing has ever finished. Things are always changing. 808 00:41:05,880 --> 00:41:09,119 So running your tests locally as you're building some code, 809 00:41:09,119 --> 00:41:12,400 as you're adding additions, as you're changing things always makes sense. 810 00:41:12,440 --> 00:41:14,599 Some people don't. Some people push it to CEICD so 811 00:41:14,599 --> 00:41:16,840 they can just get their code up there and they're 812 00:41:16,840 --> 00:41:20,760 not testing it locally, and then like you know, Friday, 813 00:41:20,760 --> 00:41:22,360 they make all the changes, they push and then they 814 00:41:22,360 --> 00:41:26,639 can't go home because, like you know, something broke. So 815 00:41:26,760 --> 00:41:30,039 running it locally always always helps, and having the tools 816 00:41:30,559 --> 00:41:32,880 like it's it's when when tests are quick and easy 817 00:41:32,920 --> 00:41:37,039 to run, it means people don't mind running them locally. 818 00:41:37,079 --> 00:41:39,760 When tests, if your test takes forty five minutes to run, 819 00:41:39,920 --> 00:41:41,960 as a developer, I'm not going to run it. I'm 820 00:41:41,960 --> 00:41:43,840 not going to run it locally. I might run the 821 00:41:43,880 --> 00:41:47,480 one test that I'm working on, but it might affect 822 00:41:47,480 --> 00:41:49,400 other things the code I'm working on. 823 00:41:49,480 --> 00:41:52,119 Speaker 2: So and that's sort of that integration test that after 824 00:41:52,159 --> 00:41:55,639 the fact. Yeah, now you go check the integration effects. 825 00:41:55,800 --> 00:41:57,639 Speaker 4: So I always say, like new code you're building, I'm 826 00:41:57,639 --> 00:42:02,159 building this new feature, then I really want to work 827 00:42:02,199 --> 00:42:05,320 on those tests. I'm writing those tests. As I'm building 828 00:42:05,320 --> 00:42:07,719 the feature. I write the tests, and then I'm testing 829 00:42:07,760 --> 00:42:10,239 that and then I you know, it's now deployed and 830 00:42:10,280 --> 00:42:12,960 then it's running on CICD and it keeps running. Yeah, 831 00:42:13,400 --> 00:42:14,639 So it's a mixture of things. 832 00:42:14,760 --> 00:42:19,320 Speaker 2: I mean, a CICD part is not not optional. Before 833 00:42:19,360 --> 00:42:23,800 this heads towards deployment or load testing or the next stage. 834 00:42:24,320 --> 00:42:27,400 It must be thoroughly tested. It's just a question of 835 00:42:27,440 --> 00:42:28,920 how much of that can you pull down to the 836 00:42:28,920 --> 00:42:32,639 local workstation for that DEV cycle, the impacts that would 837 00:42:32,719 --> 00:42:35,440 have on them. I guess it would be great to 838 00:42:35,639 --> 00:42:37,119 organize it in such a way that you could only 839 00:42:37,159 --> 00:42:38,639 need to test the piece you're working it. 840 00:42:38,920 --> 00:42:44,159 Speaker 1: Are there any common misassumptions or barriers to entry or 841 00:42:44,239 --> 00:42:50,440 gotcha's that people will find misassumptions, Maybe that people will 842 00:42:50,519 --> 00:42:53,320 run into things that they assume that it does that 843 00:42:53,360 --> 00:42:57,960 it doesn't do, or what's the typical getting started barrier 844 00:42:58,039 --> 00:42:59,559 that you see people having. 845 00:42:59,639 --> 00:43:04,559 Speaker 2: I think that miss assumption is a word. Look, sorry, 846 00:43:04,599 --> 00:43:05,880 you looked up? I did? 847 00:43:06,559 --> 00:43:06,960 Speaker 1: I can't. 848 00:43:07,000 --> 00:43:11,360 Speaker 2: I just like, what have you met me? You've appreciate 849 00:43:11,440 --> 00:43:14,719 met me? Debbie, I'm sorry, We're okay. 850 00:43:14,800 --> 00:43:18,760 Speaker 4: So I think what's really important to note is that 851 00:43:18,920 --> 00:43:23,440 tools change and evolve over time, and things get better 852 00:43:24,039 --> 00:43:28,760 and we improve things a lot. So sometimes people will 853 00:43:28,800 --> 00:43:31,599 say I'm going to go write a test and they 854 00:43:31,639 --> 00:43:34,880 are too. I'm gonna use the word lazy, but it's just, 855 00:43:35,000 --> 00:43:37,280 you know, that's my word, but there could be another 856 00:43:37,280 --> 00:43:40,079 way of describing it. They're too lazy to read the documentation. 857 00:43:40,719 --> 00:43:44,400 So what they do is they just go and they say, 858 00:43:44,519 --> 00:43:46,400 I'm going to write a test. I don't want to 859 00:43:46,440 --> 00:43:50,119 read docs. So what do I do? And what do 860 00:43:50,159 --> 00:43:52,119 we all do? We just Google right and you just 861 00:43:52,239 --> 00:43:54,199 throw it into Google or now we got the new Google. 862 00:43:54,199 --> 00:43:57,159 We got chat gtpt right, and we say, how do 863 00:43:57,199 --> 00:44:00,519 I write a test in Playwright? And some times the 864 00:44:00,599 --> 00:44:03,920 results we get are wrong and we don't care because 865 00:44:03,960 --> 00:44:05,760 we don't know because we didn't read the docs. We 866 00:44:05,880 --> 00:44:08,559 copy and we paste that code and we put it 867 00:44:08,599 --> 00:44:11,159 into our tests and then we go, my test is breaking, 868 00:44:11,199 --> 00:44:13,320 and I don't know why my test doesn't work, and 869 00:44:13,360 --> 00:44:13,760 I don't know. 870 00:44:13,760 --> 00:44:16,360 Speaker 1: What it works when it shouldn't work exactly. 871 00:44:16,880 --> 00:44:19,079 Speaker 4: So this is really important to kind of make sure 872 00:44:19,119 --> 00:44:23,320 you're using the latest version that you know, I mean, 873 00:44:23,599 --> 00:44:25,840 Playwright is you know, the first time Playwright came out 874 00:44:25,880 --> 00:44:29,079 three years ago, the locators were different to what they 875 00:44:29,119 --> 00:44:33,519 are now. And you know, sometimes chat GTPT isn't up 876 00:44:33,519 --> 00:44:35,360 to date, it hasn't been trained in the latest model, 877 00:44:35,400 --> 00:44:36,840 so it's going to give you an old version. 878 00:44:36,920 --> 00:44:37,119 Speaker 3: Right. 879 00:44:38,119 --> 00:44:40,480 Speaker 4: Someone on stack overflow maybe wrote that a couple of 880 00:44:40,519 --> 00:44:42,679 years ago. Maybe doesn't know much about testing. You have 881 00:44:42,760 --> 00:44:45,239 no idea of their knowledge level. You're just copying their 882 00:44:45,280 --> 00:44:48,199 code and their answer, assuming that they're all experts and 883 00:44:48,239 --> 00:44:50,599 that you're not an expert. But really, if you just 884 00:44:50,639 --> 00:44:52,960 go into the documentation and did the same search and 885 00:44:53,000 --> 00:44:55,480 the documentation, you would get that answer. We get a 886 00:44:55,519 --> 00:44:56,199 better answer. 887 00:44:57,719 --> 00:45:00,599 Speaker 1: Are there are there really good examples in the documentation 888 00:45:00,960 --> 00:45:03,960 of you know, for people getting started their walkthroughs or 889 00:45:04,119 --> 00:45:04,800 that kind of thing. 890 00:45:05,199 --> 00:45:08,119 Speaker 4: So I'm going to be very very honest and tell 891 00:45:08,199 --> 00:45:14,360 you that I did never basically ever install sea sharp 892 00:45:14,519 --> 00:45:22,480 on my computer until literally a couple of months ago. 893 00:45:22,840 --> 00:45:27,159 Of all guils, I built the getting started docs for 894 00:45:27,320 --> 00:45:30,840 c sharp, and I took it from start to finish, 895 00:45:30,880 --> 00:45:33,840 and I mean from start to installing on my computer. 896 00:45:34,199 --> 00:45:34,480 Speaker 1: Wow. 897 00:45:34,519 --> 00:45:38,880 Speaker 4: So if I, as a non developer, can write a 898 00:45:38,880 --> 00:45:41,880 playwright test in dot net by following the getting started guide, 899 00:45:41,920 --> 00:45:43,840 then a dot net developer should be able to do 900 00:45:43,880 --> 00:45:46,199 it ten times faster than me and should be very 901 00:45:46,239 --> 00:45:48,320 successful in a very short space of time. 902 00:45:48,480 --> 00:45:50,039 Speaker 1: Well done you nice. 903 00:45:50,719 --> 00:45:52,400 Speaker 2: Thanks, Yeah, that's. 904 00:45:52,280 --> 00:45:53,599 Speaker 4: Actually really easy to install. 905 00:45:53,679 --> 00:45:53,960 Speaker 3: Do it? 906 00:45:54,039 --> 00:45:56,840 Speaker 4: I realized it's actually a purple button. You just press 907 00:45:56,920 --> 00:45:59,559 it and then it just installs. I did not know that. 908 00:45:59,679 --> 00:46:02,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean we always had this problem. But there's 909 00:46:02,280 --> 00:46:05,039 too many ways and so did some of them are 910 00:46:05,119 --> 00:46:06,599 hard and yeah, if you picked it. 911 00:46:07,000 --> 00:46:09,239 Speaker 4: You know what I did, I asked chat and you 912 00:46:09,280 --> 00:46:11,199 know what it did. It sent me down the rum path. 913 00:46:11,480 --> 00:46:14,840 Speaker 1: Oh man, you go to the docks. 914 00:46:17,320 --> 00:46:19,599 Speaker 2: Who's lazy? Yeah? 915 00:46:19,760 --> 00:46:24,880 Speaker 1: Right, it's like have an intelligent mentor that sometimes loses 916 00:46:24,920 --> 00:46:25,480 its mind. 917 00:46:25,960 --> 00:46:28,559 Speaker 2: Well, it gave you an answer, it just wasn't the 918 00:46:28,679 --> 00:46:33,119 easiest answer, right, Like, that's that's a tough concept for 919 00:46:33,159 --> 00:46:34,760 a piece of software to figure out. 920 00:46:34,960 --> 00:46:37,800 Speaker 1: Gott to change your system? Prompted to can you not 921 00:46:37,920 --> 00:46:42,719 give me any dumb answers? That'd be great. If you 922 00:46:42,760 --> 00:46:45,159 don't do that, you're only going to get dumb answers. 923 00:46:45,559 --> 00:46:47,519 Speaker 4: I mean the answer sounded good to me if it 924 00:46:47,559 --> 00:46:50,480 felt familiar in my world. It was like, you know, yeah, homebrew, 925 00:46:50,559 --> 00:46:52,599 just homebrew it all up. Yeah, that's that's me, Mark 926 00:46:52,679 --> 00:46:55,199 that that does it. But no, you don't need that 927 00:46:55,679 --> 00:46:56,000 was it was? 928 00:46:56,039 --> 00:46:58,199 Speaker 2: It was it Hunter that told you. It's like we 929 00:46:58,280 --> 00:46:58,920 made a button. 930 00:47:00,199 --> 00:47:00,960 Speaker 1: There's a button. 931 00:47:01,320 --> 00:47:07,760 Speaker 4: Yeah, why don't you know about the button? 932 00:47:11,440 --> 00:47:13,840 Speaker 1: One thing that I've noticed as an aside here that 933 00:47:13,920 --> 00:47:16,320 Chat GPT is terrible at is CSS? 934 00:47:16,880 --> 00:47:17,360 Speaker 2: Oh boy? 935 00:47:18,239 --> 00:47:21,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, don't try to solve a CSS problem with chat GP. 936 00:47:22,880 --> 00:47:25,800 Speaker 2: Problem. Now I have two problems. 937 00:47:25,880 --> 00:47:27,559 Speaker 1: I have a problem factory. 938 00:47:28,239 --> 00:47:32,119 Speaker 2: Yeah, I tried it with Kubernetes and a head of 939 00:47:32,159 --> 00:47:37,159 container problems. Yeah, CSS is terrible. I'm sorry. Or did 940 00:47:37,199 --> 00:47:40,559 I have a problem orchestrator. It's one of those, you. 941 00:47:40,519 --> 00:47:43,519 Speaker 1: Know, I might as well ask the JavaScript JavaScript web 942 00:47:43,599 --> 00:47:48,360 queen here. CSS visualization tools exist so that you can 943 00:47:48,400 --> 00:47:52,960 see a tree view of your application so you can 944 00:47:53,320 --> 00:47:56,599 more easily diagnose CSS problems. 945 00:47:56,920 --> 00:47:58,800 Speaker 4: I mean, we just live in death tools, and like 946 00:47:58,800 --> 00:48:01,920 the death tools is in me, and even like you know. 947 00:48:02,119 --> 00:48:04,559 Speaker 1: You really think so, yeah, you think the dev tools 948 00:48:04,559 --> 00:48:06,800 are amazing for CSS. I mean, I guess you do 949 00:48:06,880 --> 00:48:08,519 see the tree, see. 950 00:48:08,280 --> 00:48:12,320 Speaker 4: Everything you see like accessibility for your components. You can 951 00:48:12,320 --> 00:48:14,639 see the color. You can even like modify it and 952 00:48:14,639 --> 00:48:16,719 say like that's that a color is not accessible. But 953 00:48:16,760 --> 00:48:18,360 if I can just like scroll it across a bit, 954 00:48:18,400 --> 00:48:20,320 this is an accessible color, which means you can go 955 00:48:20,440 --> 00:48:23,519 back to your designer and say, hey, that gray it's 956 00:48:23,559 --> 00:48:25,239 just not going to work for me, but if you want, 957 00:48:25,440 --> 00:48:27,280 can we make it this grey? Because that would work 958 00:48:27,320 --> 00:48:29,440 accessibility wise, and then they just kind of get you know, 959 00:48:29,480 --> 00:48:32,039 they love their colors and their stuff, so they go, oh, 960 00:48:32,199 --> 00:48:33,360 that gray is a little bit different. 961 00:48:33,920 --> 00:48:37,199 Speaker 1: Yeah, I guess what I'm really looking for, And maybe 962 00:48:37,199 --> 00:48:39,719 the dev tools haven't have just missed this. But you know, 963 00:48:39,800 --> 00:48:42,360 when you're several layers down, like maybe ten or eleven 964 00:48:42,440 --> 00:48:45,039 or twelve layers down, and you have some CSS that's 965 00:48:45,159 --> 00:48:48,400 all messed up and it's not what you expected, can 966 00:48:48,440 --> 00:48:52,119 you like querry that and say, yeah, where did this 967 00:48:52,280 --> 00:48:56,480 particular attribute come from in the CSS tree? 968 00:48:56,519 --> 00:48:58,079 Speaker 2: Why is this hidden? 969 00:48:58,440 --> 00:49:01,119 Speaker 1: Yeah? Why is it hidden? Why is it purple? Why 970 00:49:01,199 --> 00:49:02,119 is it not purple? 971 00:49:03,880 --> 00:49:07,000 Speaker 4: I think a lot of people write very very bad CSS, 972 00:49:07,039 --> 00:49:09,400 and that is a weird problem that you need to solve, 973 00:49:09,440 --> 00:49:11,679 and deaf tools can't solve that, and there's no tool 974 00:49:11,719 --> 00:49:14,039 I can solve that. I tried to solve that in 975 00:49:14,079 --> 00:49:16,599 a company and I literally re architected the whole thing 976 00:49:16,639 --> 00:49:19,480 in the amount of times, like CSS, this is being 977 00:49:19,559 --> 00:49:21,880 used across twenty components and you change it once and 978 00:49:21,920 --> 00:49:23,960 it's going to affect so many others, but but you 979 00:49:24,000 --> 00:49:26,079 don't know about it because this file live somewhere else, 980 00:49:26,360 --> 00:49:29,480 and it's just being cold and bundled together. I mean, 981 00:49:29,519 --> 00:49:31,679 tailwind kind of solves that a little bit. If you 982 00:49:31,719 --> 00:49:33,599 wanted to get out on that road, That's what I 983 00:49:33,639 --> 00:49:35,679 would have used and used. 984 00:49:36,599 --> 00:49:39,760 Speaker 1: Maybe there's a good AI solution out there waiting on 985 00:49:39,840 --> 00:49:42,280 the horizons that you can just ask, why is the 986 00:49:42,280 --> 00:49:45,519 button not purple? There you go or whatever, and it'll 987 00:49:45,519 --> 00:49:46,679 find it in the tree and. 988 00:49:46,679 --> 00:49:49,679 Speaker 4: Bob shrunkle AI is going to solve all our problems. 989 00:49:49,719 --> 00:49:53,880 Speaker 1: All the problems, all the problems I know. Yeah, co 990 00:49:54,079 --> 00:49:58,159 pilot for CSS. Here it comes you laugh, I bet 991 00:49:58,239 --> 00:50:02,280 it's coming. Well. 992 00:50:02,320 --> 00:50:06,119 Speaker 2: That brings up a great question, Daddy, what's next for Playwright? Like, 993 00:50:06,239 --> 00:50:07,880 is how long's your to do list? 994 00:50:08,519 --> 00:50:10,760 Speaker 4: I think the too list is never ending and nobody 995 00:50:11,079 --> 00:50:15,320 can ever know because like when we last spoke, I 996 00:50:15,400 --> 00:50:17,960 never knew that, you know, cloud based browsers were going 997 00:50:18,039 --> 00:50:20,599 to be a thing. That was never because we didn't 998 00:50:20,840 --> 00:50:22,880 we didn't have that scaling problem. We didn't have that 999 00:50:22,920 --> 00:50:25,280 many people using Playwright, so we didn't have all this 1000 00:50:25,360 --> 00:50:28,480 feedback from all these people and companies and community. I mean, 1001 00:50:28,519 --> 00:50:32,000 we went from zero members in discord to over thirty 1002 00:50:32,199 --> 00:50:36,639 thousand members since since we spoke, basically right, so all 1003 00:50:36,679 --> 00:50:39,760 of those companies are now using playwrights. You need different solutions, 1004 00:50:40,239 --> 00:50:44,719 so we basically use GitHub. Playwright is open source and 1005 00:50:44,920 --> 00:50:47,480 people file issues and say we have this problem, we 1006 00:50:47,519 --> 00:50:51,360 want this tool, we want this and everything that we 1007 00:50:51,440 --> 00:50:55,000 built is based on up votes from our users and 1008 00:50:55,599 --> 00:50:57,639 you just go to that file an issue and up voted. 1009 00:50:58,079 --> 00:51:03,920 Speaker 2: How organized these issues are technically collecting feedback like I 1010 00:51:03,960 --> 00:51:06,679 could see you guys are taking care of this part 1011 00:51:06,679 --> 00:51:10,280 of the inner loop, like because people are asking for features, 1012 00:51:10,320 --> 00:51:12,880 they things they think are bugs but may or may 1013 00:51:12,920 --> 00:51:16,599 not be like mm hmm exactly. So really are developing 1014 00:51:16,599 --> 00:51:19,920 out in the in public. Basically anybody can contribute. Anybody 1015 00:51:20,039 --> 00:51:24,400 can read lots of comments too, like you're clearly prosecuting 1016 00:51:24,440 --> 00:51:26,639 these like what do you think of this? What about that? Way? 1017 00:51:27,079 --> 00:51:28,360 You know, how would we solve it this way? 1018 00:51:28,440 --> 00:51:31,239 Speaker 4: Because we have to understand, right, sometimes people say I 1019 00:51:31,280 --> 00:51:33,280 need this feature, like we'll explain to us because I'm 1020 00:51:33,280 --> 00:51:35,840 not seeing what you're seeing, so we need to understand, like, 1021 00:51:36,239 --> 00:51:37,920 you know, what is it that we why do you 1022 00:51:37,960 --> 00:51:39,119 want this? Why is it important? 1023 00:51:39,199 --> 00:51:42,599 Speaker 1: Or the question that I'll microsoft people ask, why would 1024 00:51:42,679 --> 00:51:48,039 you ever want to do that? It's it's not a 1025 00:51:48,159 --> 00:51:51,559 threatening question. It's a real question, like why, what's your why? 1026 00:51:52,159 --> 00:51:55,239 Speaker 4: Yeah, because then we can say, well, oh that sounds great, 1027 00:51:56,079 --> 00:51:59,159 let's you know, put some time towards that and work 1028 00:51:59,159 --> 00:52:02,079 on that one instead of this feature, right, or fix 1029 00:52:02,119 --> 00:52:03,760 this boog instead of that bog or whatever. 1030 00:52:04,039 --> 00:52:08,079 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, totally. And I said just and you know, 1031 00:52:08,280 --> 00:52:11,039 you could write the code too, like if you're if 1032 00:52:11,039 --> 00:52:13,159 you're that interested like that, you can contribute. 1033 00:52:13,239 --> 00:52:15,840 Speaker 4: We have had we've had some external contributors, especially in 1034 00:52:15,880 --> 00:52:19,079 the last releases, and I think now get up has 1035 00:52:19,079 --> 00:52:20,440 done some really nice thing where you can kind of 1036 00:52:20,440 --> 00:52:22,360 see their names and their picture and it's really cool. 1037 00:52:22,400 --> 00:52:27,320 So that even like is nice, So yeah, do yeah. 1038 00:52:27,599 --> 00:52:30,239 Speaker 2: To contribute to a project like this, that would be 1039 00:52:30,280 --> 00:52:31,360 really fun because. 1040 00:52:31,159 --> 00:52:33,039 Speaker 4: We are a very small team, so we can't do 1041 00:52:33,079 --> 00:52:36,079 everything that people want us to do because it's just 1042 00:52:36,119 --> 00:52:38,599 not possible, so we can only like say. 1043 00:52:38,679 --> 00:52:42,199 Speaker 2: It's a triayeah, yes, I get that. That makes a 1044 00:52:42,239 --> 00:52:43,159 lot of sense. 1045 00:52:43,320 --> 00:52:46,239 Speaker 1: Very cool, awesome sense, like a fun project to contribute to. 1046 00:52:46,760 --> 00:52:48,559 If you're looking first, you've. 1047 00:52:48,440 --> 00:52:51,000 Speaker 2: Had a lot of contributors. Holy man, look at this list. 1048 00:52:51,559 --> 00:52:55,719 Speaker 4: Yeah, hundreds. We have a great community. I told you. 1049 00:52:57,000 --> 00:52:59,079 And Discord Yeah, oh, there you are. 1050 00:52:59,320 --> 00:53:00,159 Speaker 2: I see your commit. 1051 00:53:04,440 --> 00:53:07,239 Speaker 1: Well, Debbie, it's been an absolute delight having you on 1052 00:53:07,280 --> 00:53:11,159 the show again, and congratulations on playwright success. And we 1053 00:53:11,199 --> 00:53:13,239 hope our listeners will check it out. 1054 00:53:13,480 --> 00:53:17,360 Speaker 4: I mean they have to, it's not we hope. You 1055 00:53:17,440 --> 00:53:19,159 got to be strict to Carl, you gotta tell them. 1056 00:53:19,239 --> 00:53:21,800 Speaker 1: All right, guys, my next episode. 1057 00:53:21,440 --> 00:53:23,800 Speaker 4: You have all should have written at least one test, 1058 00:53:24,239 --> 00:53:24,800 and I want. 1059 00:53:24,639 --> 00:53:26,920 Speaker 1: To see some comments on hiver right. 1060 00:53:27,480 --> 00:53:30,599 Speaker 4: I would say I would challenge I would challenge anyone 1061 00:53:30,760 --> 00:53:33,320 who thinks or has never written a playwright test. I 1062 00:53:33,360 --> 00:53:37,719 would say take seven minutes. I won't say seven, not 1063 00:53:37,840 --> 00:53:40,320 ten's a little bit more than five. Seven minutes. Go 1064 00:53:40,400 --> 00:53:42,360 to the getting started guide and the documentation of the 1065 00:53:42,400 --> 00:53:45,519 dot net and basically write that test. And you don't 1066 00:53:45,519 --> 00:53:48,159 even have to have a website. Just put in any 1067 00:53:48,199 --> 00:53:51,360 website and just just go through it and write that test. 1068 00:53:52,079 --> 00:53:55,400 Seven minutes and you'll have a test written to your developer. 1069 00:53:55,440 --> 00:53:56,800 You'll get a pay rise in a second. 1070 00:53:57,280 --> 00:54:01,000 Speaker 1: All right, there you go. Let's take make this about money, 1071 00:54:03,760 --> 00:54:04,840 all right, Debbie, thanks a. 1072 00:54:04,760 --> 00:54:06,400 Speaker 4: Lot again, Thank you. 1073 00:54:06,440 --> 00:54:09,159 Speaker 1: All right, we'll talk to you next time on dot 1074 00:54:09,320 --> 00:54:35,039 net rocks. Dot net rocks is brought to you by 1075 00:54:35,119 --> 00:54:39,800 Franklin's Net and produced by Pop Studios, a full service audio, 1076 00:54:39,920 --> 00:54:44,440 video and post production facilities located physically in New London, Connecticut, 1077 00:54:44,599 --> 00:54:49,440 and of course in the cloud online at pwop dot com. 1078 00:54:49,599 --> 00:54:51,719 Visit our website at d O T N E t 1079 00:54:51,960 --> 00:54:56,000 R O c k S dot com for RSS feeds, downloads, 1080 00:54:56,159 --> 00:54:59,760 mobile apps, comments, and access to the full archives going 1081 00:54:59,800 --> 00:55:03,280 back the show number one recorded in September two thousand 1082 00:55:03,280 --> 00:55:05,920 and two. And make sure you check out our sponsors. 1083 00:55:06,079 --> 00:55:08,920 They keep us in business. Now go write some code. 1084 00:55:09,480 --> 00:55:12,920 See you next time you got jas middle Vans 1085 00:55:18,920 --> 00:55:19,719 Speaker 3: Home the