Speaker 1: Oh, bel there, Trigger Warren.
Speaker 2: This podcast may include explicit content that will take you
Speaker 2: out of your.
Speaker 3: Comfort zone and make you question reality.
Speaker 1: Listeners, discretion is advised.
Speaker 4: Hello, and welcome back to the show. This is Blood
Speaker 4: Ties Part three and I am, of course really excited
Speaker 4: about this one. We left it on kind of a
Speaker 4: cliffhanger in the last one, a little bit about what
Speaker 4: we were going to talk about today, and it's some
Speaker 4: more of the inconsistencies with John Wayne Gacy and Ted Bundy.
Speaker 4: And of course we have Colby on this episode again. Hello,
Speaker 4: how are you Colby?
Speaker 3: Tired?
Speaker 4: Tired of me? Tired of life? Are you feeling suicidal?
Speaker 4: Are you having direk thoughts?
Speaker 3: You should work for suicide hot line like Ted Bundy.
Speaker 4: Yeah, you'd get off on it. So I'm going to
Speaker 4: start us off with a quote as usual. So the
Speaker 4: quote is quote like, you have a job. I have
Speaker 4: a job. He has a job. His job is killing people.
Speaker 4: That's what he was trained to do. In quote that
Speaker 4: comes from Cynthia Hayden, a djur in the Richard Ramirez trial,
Speaker 4: commenting on the convicted nightstalker. And I'm I mean, how
Speaker 4: can you sum it up.
Speaker 3: Any better than that did she say this too?
Speaker 4: I don't know. It just says Adjur in the Richard
Speaker 4: Ramirez trial commenting on him.
Speaker 3: Where did you get the quote?
Speaker 4: Program to Kill? I feel like, yeah, I was gonna say,
Speaker 4: I don't feel like David McGowan would put it in
Speaker 4: there if it was a fake quote.
Speaker 3: Right, And I'm sure he said where it came from.
Speaker 3: I was just curious. I'm like, what what the context
Speaker 3: of the quote was.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I don't know, but it's interesting to say the least.
Speaker 4: I feel like in the Program Him to Kill series,
Speaker 4: I spent a lot of time trying to set the
Speaker 4: ground for what we're going to talk about today, and
Speaker 4: I think what people were waiting to hear in the
Speaker 4: Program to Kill series is what we're going to talk
Speaker 4: about today.
Speaker 3: Well, let's go get them so they could hear this.
Speaker 4: Yeah. So I want to first start us off taking
Speaker 4: a little bit closer look at some of the weirdness
Speaker 4: with John Wayne Gacy and as a teenager, John Wayne
Speaker 4: Gacy worked in Las Vegas at both a mortuary and
Speaker 4: as an ambulance attendant. At the mortuary, it was said
Speaker 4: that he had a habit of sleeping in the embalming
Speaker 4: room amongst the corpses, and he was fired after some
Speaker 4: of those corpses were found to have been partially undressed,
Speaker 4: which they don't really tell you for sure in any
Speaker 4: documentary of I've ever watched at least if John Wayne
Speaker 4: Gacy was into necrophilia. But just like the rest of
Speaker 4: our cast of characters, it looks like he definitely was.
Speaker 3: Maybe he just liked skin on skin, cuddles.
Speaker 4: With cold stiff Maybe that's why he was in there
Speaker 4: because the dead bodies had cold stiff ones.
Speaker 3: Is that how it works?
Speaker 4: He was gay? After you die? Did your dick still
Speaker 4: stand up?
Speaker 5: I doubt it.
Speaker 4: You think it's flaccid.
Speaker 3: I'll let you know when I died.
Speaker 4: Well, I'm just saying clearly he was into necrophilia, or
Speaker 4: he was molesting the dead bodies. I don't know if
Speaker 4: he was actually fucking him because he was gay, he
Speaker 4: could have fucked the dead ass though.
Speaker 6: Why were they wearing clothes anyway? Do you usually have
Speaker 6: clothes on in the morgue.
Speaker 4: In a mortuary? Isn't that where they get him dressed
Speaker 4: up to like for funerals?
Speaker 3: Okay, so it wasn't a morgan. It was a mortuary
Speaker 3: that makes sense.
Speaker 4: So maybe, yeah. I mean, can you imagine all those
Speaker 4: people's dead loved ones getting molested by jaycy after they're did?
Speaker 3: I can if you want me to.
Speaker 4: So. In the nineteen sixties, John lived in Waterloo, Iowa,
Speaker 4: where he owned several businesses, including four restaurants, a clothing
Speaker 4: design firm, and a motel. During that period of his life,
Speaker 4: he joined the j CS and quickly forged a bond
Speaker 4: with the man who soon became the local chapter president.
Speaker 4: This particular JC chapter was known at the time to
Speaker 4: be involved in prostitution, pornography, and various other crimes of vice.
Speaker 4: The jc's, also known as the United States Junior Chamber,
Speaker 4: is a nonprofit or organization that focuses on leadership training
Speaker 4: and civic engagement for people between the ages of eighteen
Speaker 4: and forty. I don't even know if that's still a thing.
Speaker 3: So is it like the Rotary Club?
Speaker 4: I guess so. I mean it was the sixties. I
Speaker 4: don't think there is such a thing as j c's anymore.
Speaker 4: But so he's getting involved.
Speaker 3: Interesting how gay cy jc's.
Speaker 4: He puts the gay and gay seeds. It's gross, I know,
Speaker 4: But so this particular chapter of the Jac's was involved
Speaker 4: in prostitution, pornography, and various other crimes.
Speaker 6: So I mean is this child because if they're just
Speaker 6: like involved in prostitution and pornography, other crimes, advice that
Speaker 6: might be like gambling Black America gambling or.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean it's not really specific on.
Speaker 6: That, but I mean we've been talking so much in
Speaker 6: these series, in your past series about child pornography rings.
Speaker 3: Mm hm, so I just the distinction isn't made there, So.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's not, but I mean, you get we could
Speaker 4: probably use our imagination with what that really because it's
Speaker 4: a nonprofit organization and we know what John Wayne Gacy
Speaker 4: was getting up to later in his life, so I
Speaker 4: can only imagine even if it was like regular prostitution
Speaker 4: and pornography, though it's like the CIA and like organized
Speaker 4: crime and shit, it's just I mean, two birds of
Speaker 4: a feather really, So, a local prosecutor identified Gacy's motel,
Speaker 4: managed by his newfound friend, as the hub of those activities.
Speaker 4: According to the prosecutor, the motel was a front for
Speaker 4: a gay and straight prostitution ring. Again, it doesn't spe
Speaker 4: on kids or adults, but even if it was adults,
Speaker 4: I mean he was clearly into some fucking shady shit. Yeah,
Speaker 4: and Gacy was in the habit of hiring many young
Speaker 4: people of both sexes to work at his businesses. He
Speaker 4: also reportedly set up what was described as a social
Speaker 4: club in his basement recreation room, which he kept well
Speaker 4: stocked with drugs and alcohol to supply to his numerous
Speaker 4: underage guests. He was also said by those who knew
Speaker 4: him at the time to control his wife and to
Speaker 4: openly offer her sexual services to friends and colleagues, because
Speaker 4: I think it was a sham of a marriage anyways.
Speaker 4: And if he was into all this other stuff, and
Speaker 4: he a lot of his victims were underage, maybe he
Speaker 4: was like luring them back to the house with like
Speaker 4: drugs and alcohol, kind of Dohmer style. I don't know,
Speaker 4: but he was clearly into like some next level shit.
Speaker 6: Well, and this is interesting because all of the narrative
Speaker 6: I've ever read, you know, and the low hanging mainstream
Speaker 6: true crime stuff.
Speaker 3: It was always an emphasis on young men, you know,
Speaker 3: not men, but teenage boys. And this is saying he
Speaker 3: had both sexes work in his.
Speaker 4: Businesses well, and then he set up this social club,
Speaker 4: and I mean.
Speaker 3: He also seemed to take offense. It was something you mentioned.
Speaker 6: I think in the last episode that people would refer
Speaker 6: to him as gay.
Speaker 3: He would correct them and say he was bisexual.
Speaker 4: He could have been. You know what the crazy thing is,
Speaker 4: like if a lot of the murders weren't really him,
Speaker 4: then there's probably a bunch more victims we never found
Speaker 4: out about, Like he could have killed other girls and
Speaker 4: like whoever. But they only found the bodies that were
Speaker 4: under his house.
Speaker 3: Thirty three or right to shitload of bodies for under one.
Speaker 4: House, No I know. So On March eleventh, nineteen sixty eight,
Speaker 4: Donald Borhe's junior, the son of a JC and former
Speaker 4: Iowa state representative, gave a statement to police alleging that
Speaker 4: Gaysey had assaulted and sodomized him. So he assaulted and
Speaker 4: sodomized the son of one of the oh the former
Speaker 4: Iowa state representative and he was a JC. So you
Speaker 4: know how they do in like those weird political circles,
Speaker 4: like they passed their kids around and shit, do you
Speaker 4: think that's something like this because it said he was
Speaker 4: into like it was his motel was like a cover
Speaker 4: and like he was clearly having a social club at
Speaker 4: his house. And weird stuff like that. He's involved in politics.
Speaker 3: And then he so you're basically asking if the father
Speaker 3: may have been compliant.
Speaker 4: Yeah, could be, or do you think this was.
Speaker 3: I mean, he either had access to the kid, whether
Speaker 3: the father knew about it or not. But yeah, speculating,
Speaker 3: we do know that goes on.
Speaker 4: Mm hmm. That's what's just kind of came to my
Speaker 4: mind because he, like we said before, he met the
Speaker 4: first lady and like was so respected and shit like that,
Speaker 4: and like maybe he's just let him do it. I
Speaker 4: don't know. But in early May, Gaysey was indided by
Speaker 4: a grand jury, though no further action was taken for
Speaker 4: several months about the assault asotomy of this JC kid.
Speaker 4: On September twelfth, John made a court appearance at which
Speaker 4: he was ordered to submit to a psychiatric examination at
Speaker 4: the Psychopathic Hospital of the State University of Iowa Jesus Christ.
Speaker 4: While in custody, there, he spoke freely to investigators of
Speaker 4: wholesale corruption among the city's elite. He talked of gambling, prostitution, pornography,
Speaker 4: wife swapping, and the corruption and complicity of local police.
Speaker 4: He supplied the names of numerous j c's police personnel
Speaker 4: and various other prominent individuals who were involved in criminal enterprises.
Speaker 4: So that's why I think.
Speaker 3: A snitch.
Speaker 4: Yeah, he is a fucking snitch. But the thing is
Speaker 4: he's talking about all this, and then his motel has
Speaker 4: found out to be upfront for like gay sex and
Speaker 4: straight sex or whatever, and he's got all these politician friends.
Speaker 4: I think that whoever the dad was of that kid
Speaker 4: let him do it, and maybe Gasey did something to
Speaker 4: piss him off, and then he was like, I'm telling
Speaker 4: everybody you raped my son.
Speaker 3: What do you think I mean, that's possible.
Speaker 4: Because they do what do we always talk about, They
Speaker 4: use kids as blackmail in political circles. So who's to
Speaker 4: say that he didn't get a hold of this kid
Speaker 4: his dad let him get train on and then they
Speaker 4: fucking took a video or something of him because he's
Speaker 4: involved in gambling, prostitution, pornography, wife swapping, whatever. It just
Speaker 4: seems like this could have been a case of like
Speaker 4: some of this stuff we're always talking about in the
Speaker 4: conspiracy theory community, because that was the first time he
Speaker 4: ever got busted, and.
Speaker 6: It's weird that it's on the record too. Did you
Speaker 6: think that would piece of evidence like this would be
Speaker 6: well known. Of course, we know they do sweep.
Speaker 3: It under the rug.
Speaker 4: When brought before a judge, Gaisey threw himself at the
Speaker 4: mercy of the court and entered a guilty plea on
Speaker 4: the assault asodomy of this kid. On December third, nineteen
Speaker 4: sixty eight. He was sentenced to a ten year term.
Speaker 4: He served less than two of those years, earning parole
Speaker 4: on June eighteenth, nineteen seventy. While in prison, he somehow
Speaker 4: managed to always have money, cigars and civilian shirts, all
Speaker 4: difficult commodities to attain for most prisoners.
Speaker 3: So he had somebody giving him some commissary.
Speaker 4: Yeah or well, and you know what I always say,
Speaker 4: if you want to know if they're involved in some shit,
Speaker 4: just look at their sentence. He was sentenced to ten
Speaker 4: years and he served less than two, and then it
Speaker 4: was really straight back out onto the street. And somebody
Speaker 4: was giving him all this money and shit while he
Speaker 4: was in there. So clearly he's not just a psycho.
Speaker 4: To me, this doesn't say I'm a low nut psycho
Speaker 4: serial killer. This screams I'm on a team.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 4: And according to some reports, Gacy received electro shock and
Speaker 4: a version therapy while incarcerated, allegedly to cure him of
Speaker 4: his homosexuality, which is in American Horror Story Season two
Speaker 4: as uh huh. You remember when they take what's her
Speaker 4: name and they do a version therapy and they do
Speaker 4: something they make her throw up every time she watches
Speaker 4: gay porn or something. And I said this earlier on
Speaker 4: the episode that we just did that. I think we're
Speaker 4: all living in one of the most interesting seasons of
Speaker 4: American Horror Story.
Speaker 3: It's got it all aliens, pedophiles. Mm hmm.
Speaker 4: I mean, I think it is.
Speaker 3: But pedophile aliens maybe, mm hmmm. Season twist.
Speaker 4: So, just eight months after his release, he was again arrested,
Speaker 4: this time for disorderly conduct despite the vibe violation. Just
Speaker 4: eight months after that, he was released from parole. Another
Speaker 4: eight months after that, on the summer solstice of nineteen
Speaker 4: seventy two, he was again arrested and charged with aggravated
Speaker 4: battery and reckless conduct. Gaysey had allegedly offered a young
Speaker 4: man a ride on June seventh, identified himself as a
Speaker 4: police officer, and then attempted to handcuff the boy. Failing
Speaker 4: in that endeavor, Gaysey had then clubbed him on the
Speaker 4: back of his neck, kicked him, and then pursued him
Speaker 4: with his car and struck him down curiously. When they
Speaker 4: arrested him and took him in for running this kid
Speaker 4: down with his car, they scanned his fingerprints, and his
Speaker 4: fingerprints were on file with local police under the alias
Speaker 4: Colonel Gaysey Colonel like Michael Aquino type shit. Yeah, So
Speaker 4: I don't know. I thought that was interesting.
Speaker 6: Well, and it's weird too, because he did I don't
Speaker 6: know if it was like volunteer work with the police,
Speaker 6: but he had established a relationship with the local police
Speaker 6: and did ride alongs and stuff, so maybe that was
Speaker 6: just like.
Speaker 4: Oh, you think they did that as like a joke
Speaker 4: or like a nickname Gasey, Yeah, nickname, whether jokingly or otherwise,
Speaker 4: I don't know.
Speaker 3: It could be something to that effect.
Speaker 4: Well. I also thought, and you know this because I
Speaker 4: talk about it all the time, all the eights eight
Speaker 4: months after he was released from parole, eight months after
Speaker 4: that he was arrested again, I thought there was another
Speaker 4: aid in there.
Speaker 3: Maybe he kicked him in clubbed him eight times.
Speaker 4: Yeah, But anyways, I always find the eight to be
Speaker 4: really oh yeah. Eight months after his release. Eight months
Speaker 4: after that release from parole, Oh so yeah, there is
Speaker 4: three eighths in there. So anyways, he continues his murder
Speaker 4: spree and gets arrested again, and while his home was
Speaker 4: being searched, Gasey was taken to Holy Family Hospital for
Speaker 4: a medical examination, allegedly due to complaints of chest pains.
Speaker 4: Immediately upon his release from the hospital, John read and
Speaker 4: signed a Miranda waiver and began confessing to the fucking murders.
Speaker 4: One of his first questions to police was quote who
Speaker 4: else do you have in the station? There are others
Speaker 4: involved in quote. Gacy was then asked if the others
Speaker 4: who were involved were directly or in directly involved, to
Speaker 4: which he responded, quote directly, they participated in quote. Asked
Speaker 4: who these others might be, he answered simply, quote my
Speaker 4: associates in quote. He was also asked where one of
Speaker 4: the victims, Rob Peaste, was, to which he answered, quote,
Speaker 4: I don't know. I didn't transport him in quote. When
Speaker 4: asked who did he, he replied, quote I can't say
Speaker 4: in quote. So when he finally starts talking about the
Speaker 4: murders and admitting to them, he says, there are others
Speaker 4: involved who else do you have in the station. There
Speaker 4: were people who were directly involved that participated. He referred
Speaker 4: to them as my associates. And he said the victim
Speaker 4: rob p he didn't even know about him, and he
Speaker 4: didn't transport him, quote unquote, and then he couldn't say
Speaker 4: who was working with him. Do you think this is
Speaker 4: bullshit because Gasey was a horrible liar, or do you
Speaker 4: think this is genuine and there were people working with him.
Speaker 6: I mean, one thing that con validated is he obviously,
Speaker 6: just from what you were saying a little bit earlier,
Speaker 6: he was protected from on high by somebody. And it
Speaker 6: also makes me wonder that being the case. He blabbed
Speaker 6: the first time they took him in mm.
Speaker 3: Hmm about all this other stuff that he was into with,
Speaker 3: you know, upper echelon of his.
Speaker 4: Community, wife swapping.
Speaker 6: And then well you know that one's not illegal, but
Speaker 6: the prostitution and the pornography, depending on what kind of
Speaker 6: pornography it was, but black market gambling in the legs.
Speaker 6: But you know, he's blabbing about that and then he
Speaker 6: starts doing this. Almost makes me wonder why he got
Speaker 6: to live up until his execution. But they never sent
Speaker 6: like a Jack Ruby type character after him to just
Speaker 6: pop him and shut him up.
Speaker 4: I mean, does that make you think he was lying?
Speaker 6: It doesn't necessarily mean he's lying. It's just like maybe
Speaker 6: he said enough or left enough out of what he
Speaker 6: was saying, because he would say what was going on,
Speaker 6: but he wouldn't drop names. He just alluded to the
Speaker 6: fact that he didn't work alone, he had associates, YadA, YadA.
Speaker 6: It's just strange to me because usually, like you get
Speaker 6: these guys, even when they, you know, spill the beans
Speaker 6: on everything they've done, they won't finger.
Speaker 4: Others and they won't leave you alive usually, or they'll
Speaker 4: suicide you and take you somewhere.
Speaker 3: Well, you would figure that like Epstein protocol, but I
Speaker 3: don't know.
Speaker 6: Look at Charlie Manson, despite what we all think may
Speaker 6: have happened or may not have happened that night, he
Speaker 6: had a code of not being a snitch.
Speaker 3: That he took rather seriously. Whether that was just part
Speaker 3: of his role or whatever.
Speaker 6: But this is it just kind of Casey's always been
Speaker 6: one of those that is a part of all this
Speaker 6: stuff going on. But he's got or he's lacking certain markers,
Speaker 6: like he doesn't have military experience. He's one of the
Speaker 6: only ones out of all these major cigarette serial killers.
Speaker 6: But he does have political yeah, political, and you know,
Speaker 6: definitely organized shoulders with the mob, the police, other of
Speaker 6: these I don't know, processed church type organizations that all
Speaker 6: that kind of tie everybody together.
Speaker 3: But he don't know, he just always seemed like an
Speaker 3: anomaly to me.
Speaker 4: M m yeah. And the clown thing, well.
Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean he's he's like one of those reasons
Speaker 6: that everybody's scared of clowns.
Speaker 3: We have John Wayne Gacy and then Pennywise.
Speaker 4: Who was also into kids.
Speaker 6: Yeah, and I never knew if perhaps King I haven't
Speaker 6: heard one way or the other true inspiration from he.
Speaker 4: Had to killer clown Yeah. Yeah. But so this instance
Speaker 4: where he's blabbing a little bit. So this interrogation was
Speaker 4: cut short by a Sergeant Long and then later resumed
Speaker 4: with two attorneys at Gaysey's side. No further mention was
Speaker 4: made of any accomplices, and the issue does not appear
Speaker 4: to have been pursued thereafter. So it kind of for me,
Speaker 4: if I'm just gonna say an opinion, I think that
Speaker 4: he was being honest about the accomplices.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I'm not saying he wasn't.
Speaker 4: No, I know you're not. Just if I had it,
Speaker 4: like make an opinion out of the information provided, I'm
Speaker 4: gonna say I think he was telling the truth about
Speaker 4: the accomplices.
Speaker 6: Yeah, and I mean he ruffled feathers, but apparently not
Speaker 6: enough to take him out.
Speaker 3: Then he got to see I don't know how many
Speaker 3: years in prison. I don't know the exactly.
Speaker 4: I don't know how long they let him sit in
Speaker 4: there for.
Speaker 3: They get it was a while because.
Speaker 6: By the time Jeffrey Dahmer was caught in the mid
Speaker 6: nineties or I guess that was early nineties. Still, that
Speaker 6: was a pretty significant amount of time because you know,
Speaker 6: there's the famous synchronicity of the eclipse with Dahmer getting
Speaker 6: baptized and Casey get yeah, Casey getting executed. So, yeah,
Speaker 6: he was in there for you know, between ten and
Speaker 6: twenty years.
Speaker 4: Do you think if you keep them in there long enough,
Speaker 4: they'll just start saying crazy shit so they can get
Speaker 4: out of their cell, like Charles Manson.
Speaker 3: Well, also the ship that Bundy pulled when.
Speaker 4: He oh god, I won't even get me started on that.
Speaker 6: They stayed that execution like fucking a dozen times or
Speaker 6: some shit, and.
Speaker 4: Then he blamed it all on pornography.
Speaker 6: Well, yeah, he wanted his ex girlfriend to show up
Speaker 6: and he would I'll tell where these bodies are, but
Speaker 6: only her, And it was just like, I don't know
Speaker 6: a circus really, But yeah, it kind of seems like
Speaker 6: Gaycy near the end of his life kind of just
Speaker 6: took his fate.
Speaker 4: He get the Gaysy tapes, right, and that was like
Speaker 4: his chance to say shit. And he didn't say anything
Speaker 4: about composes and stuff in those tapes, so they either
Speaker 4: got him good and shut up on that or he lied.
Speaker 6: Well I had listened to I think I would think
Speaker 6: I have mentioned this in this series already, But it's
Speaker 6: another set of tapes that a young journalist independently started
Speaker 6: reaching out. And the whole thing that was funny was
Speaker 6: this guy knew that Gasey wanted to fuck him, and
Speaker 6: they would He would kind of just like laugh it
Speaker 6: off and change the subject.
Speaker 3: But anyway he couldn't just flat out turn him down.
Speaker 3: He'd be like, so you're gonna come pay me a
Speaker 3: visit and we're gonna fuck. Like I would be like, well,
Speaker 3: let's talk about this.
Speaker 6: But anyway, he got him to allude to some things,
Speaker 6: much like what Gasey had been saying when he was
Speaker 6: you know, taken in, but he never really would get
Speaker 6: specific about it, and he would kind of change the
Speaker 6: subject back.
Speaker 3: To like wanting to fuck the guy.
Speaker 6: Yeah, and they were just playing this weird tennis game.
Speaker 6: But yeah, it does seem for the most part, he
Speaker 6: really never said anything significant other than he didn't work alone.
Speaker 4: Well, there is just a little bit of substantial proof
Speaker 4: to back up the theory that he wasn't working alone,
Speaker 4: because the homicide rate in the Chicago area soared following
Speaker 4: Gaysey's arrest, possibly indicating that a large cleanup operation ensued,
Speaker 4: and on December twenty eighth, a week after John's arrest,
Speaker 4: a fresh body was fished from the des Plains River.
Speaker 4: Gacy and the Smiley Face Killer somehow could be connected
Speaker 4: to the same group of people, though I'm not sure
Speaker 4: who those people are, but it does seem odd because
Speaker 4: the Smiley Face victims are all male. All Gaycy's victims
Speaker 4: were male as far as we know, and even though
Speaker 4: he was arrested, there's still bodies pilot up and the
Speaker 4: first one they found was fished out of the river.
Speaker 4: So when I talked to William Ramsey. He said that
Speaker 4: the Smiley Face murders have been going on since the sixties.
Speaker 4: So yeah, I don't know if like Gaysey was just
Speaker 4: like part of it and then they moved on and
Speaker 4: now it's because we do know that the Smiley face
Speaker 4: killers are multiple assailants.
Speaker 6: Well even just with the time span they'd have to be.
Speaker 6: They're still happening today.
Speaker 3: Mm hmm. I think there was just one in outside
Speaker 3: of Austin, Texas, and earlier in this year, Yeah, there was.
Speaker 3: There's a lot, a lot of interesting theories on Smiley
Speaker 3: faced killers. It's all. It's kind of rescissent of.
Speaker 6: Zodiac where they didn't really just at any point come
Speaker 6: up with just one figurehead to take the blame for
Speaker 6: it all. It's almost like a cautionary tell, like your
Speaker 6: son's going to a college party that don't walk home
Speaker 6: drunk alone, you end up in the river.
Speaker 4: I mean right, yeah, I mean do you think there
Speaker 4: could have been like Gaysey could have been part of
Speaker 4: a weird smiley face cult.
Speaker 6: Well, I mean possibly, but his oh was getting these
Speaker 6: kids back to his house and having the bodies, you know,
Speaker 6: stashed away under his floorboards.
Speaker 3: Or whatever, And.
Speaker 6: That doesn't really fit the smiley face killer, not saying
Speaker 6: he couldn't have been out there having fun doing that too.
Speaker 4: Well, no, I'm saying they could have been working in tandem.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and he could have been helping out.
Speaker 4: But you know, who knows, just saying if there's multiple assailants,
Speaker 4: it's like I said, they might each have a style. Right,
Speaker 4: And Gaysey gets locked up and there's still bodies piling up.
Speaker 4: Now they're finding them in the fucking river.
Speaker 6: So well, Chicago's never been a stranger to weird violent crimes.
Speaker 4: Well, here we here we go with another point too.
Speaker 4: Although Gaysey confessed to being a mass murderer, he had
Speaker 4: very little knowledge of the crimes to which he confessed.
Speaker 4: He claimed, for instance, that all of the victims were strangled,
Speaker 4: but forensic evidence suggested that at least thirteen of them
Speaker 4: had been suffocated. He provided a map of the locations
Speaker 4: of the bodies under his house that press reports claimed
Speaker 4: was accurate, even though it actually contained numerous discrepancies. So
Speaker 4: do you think there were like this sounds crazy, but
Speaker 4: do you think there was people putting bodies under his house?
Speaker 4: And like some of them he didn't even kill without
Speaker 4: his knowledge, and like he knew they were putting them
Speaker 4: under thee.
Speaker 6: Yeah, think of season five of Dexter, and if anybody
Speaker 6: out there hasn't seen that, it's it opens up with
Speaker 6: Dexter finding a guy who's killing women and storing them
Speaker 6: in formaldehyde in barrels, and he kills the guy and
Speaker 6: then he finds a victim who survived and she lets
Speaker 6: him know that he's just like the clean up guy.
Speaker 3: They bring him the girls to put out of their misery.
Speaker 3: So Gasey's house could have been such a place where
Speaker 3: they know they've got this stick fuck who likes to choke.
Speaker 6: Boys, and they my god, through the ringer and then
Speaker 6: they take them there. He has his fun finishes them off.
Speaker 3: Then maybe there's a team of people three or four
Speaker 3: putting bodies under the house.
Speaker 4: Oh my god, that's a brilliant theory.
Speaker 3: Well it's just a theory.
Speaker 4: Because he is like a garbage disposal.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, he's.
Speaker 4: A big, fat, sweaty gross.
Speaker 3: Literally looks like he could be a garbage.
Speaker 4: Man, Like he's throws. So they do all this stuff
Speaker 4: to these kids and then they kind of take them
Speaker 4: back to Gacy's house. He finishes them off, and then
Speaker 4: like maybe he buries some maybe they bury.
Speaker 3: Some kind of thing. I mean, who knows, damn.
Speaker 4: And Gacy was able to recall sketchy details of only
Speaker 4: five of the killings. Of the other twenty eight, he
Speaker 4: had no memory at all. He claimed that the murders
Speaker 4: began in nineteen seventy four, but then later stated that
Speaker 4: the first occurred in January nineteen seventy two. He attributed
Speaker 4: all of the murders to an alter personality that he
Speaker 4: referred to as Jack Hanley, Which brings me to another point.
Speaker 4: Do you think that he doesn't remember killing all of
Speaker 4: them because he has an alter personality? Or do you
Speaker 4: think that he has an alter personality because he is
Speaker 4: a part of this group doing this stuff.
Speaker 3: It is either could be the case.
Speaker 6: But also when you get a guy like this, he's
Speaker 6: just running out the mouth every chance he got before
Speaker 6: he was in curged rated indefinitely, a guy like that,
Speaker 6: you know he might have just a tactic of his
Speaker 6: was like, maybe if I'm a little fuzzy on the details,
Speaker 6: I could you know, you could get a stay of execution,
Speaker 6: possibly by an insanity play. And so he starts being
Speaker 6: fuzzy with the details, and then he starts claiming that
Speaker 6: there's this alter ego. It could help his case and make,
Speaker 6: you know, ensure his prolonged survival or he's just a
Speaker 6: fucking mkltrure victim.
Speaker 4: I could go either way on that, yeah, because you
Speaker 4: would want to do anything you could to stay alive,
Speaker 4: even if it was like another month.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 6: So then I don't know the laws in Illinois, but
Speaker 6: you could get a stay of execution based on insanity
Speaker 6: in some states. Yeah, I assume that that's a possibility there.
Speaker 6: They're a pretty liberal judicial system.
Speaker 4: Well that's pretty much all I wanted to touch on
Speaker 4: with Gasey. Do you have anything else, like you feel
Speaker 4: like we left out before we move on?
Speaker 6: I mean, I can't think of anything that is pressing
Speaker 6: that we didn't talk about.
Speaker 4: It just seems like this what the information that I
Speaker 4: just provided you never sees the light of day as
Speaker 4: far as documentaries are concerned, but leans more towards the
Speaker 4: program to kill idea for sure.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 6: And I mean, just to even assume, knowing everything we know,
Speaker 6: if you've been listening up to this point through all
Speaker 6: these series, the official narrative is always going to be
Speaker 6: a narrative and if they're selling the loan nut I
Speaker 6: know model to us when it comes to every single
Speaker 6: one of these serial killers. Yeah, Gaysey's definitely not someone
Speaker 6: who seemed to have acted alone. I mean, whether you
Speaker 6: trust what he said or thought that he had like
Speaker 6: some kind of grand scheme to you know it just
Speaker 6: cause of stay for the execution, or even just.
Speaker 3: I don't know. The guy liked to talk.
Speaker 6: He was he would talk to anybody who who started
Speaker 6: a correspondence with him.
Speaker 4: Behind bars, he probably talked to his fucking self. Yeah,
Speaker 4: like legit insane stuff.
Speaker 3: Hey, John h Yeah, yeah, Jack. What was his name,
Speaker 3: Jack Hanley?
Speaker 4: Yeah, Jack Jack. Yeah.
Speaker 6: Mainly the imagination is certainly lacking there. My name was John,
Speaker 6: and then I had an alter ego.
Speaker 3: I'd be like, it's Jack. I mean, if you grew
Speaker 3: up with the name.
Speaker 6: So bland as John, you'd be like, yeah, Pedro Hanley.
Speaker 3: But no, it's just Jack. It's just Jack, John and Jack.
Speaker 4: John and Jack. Yeah, if you had an altar, would
Speaker 4: what would you name them?
Speaker 3: Tony Tony.
Speaker 4: That's right, you do have an altar.
Speaker 3: Tony's blackout line alter alter ego.
Speaker 4: Yeah, he he uh, he's fun that about Tony. Do
Speaker 4: I have one?
Speaker 3: Wouldn't you like to know?
Speaker 4: I would like to know, so I kind of want
Speaker 4: to switch gears a little bit and move on to
Speaker 4: our next serial killer, Ted Bundy.
Speaker 7: He didn't look like anybody's notion of somebody who would
Speaker 7: tear apart young girls.
Speaker 2: When pat Buddy, I've never spoken to anybody about this.
Speaker 2: I am looking for an opportunity to tell the story
Speaker 2: as past I can.
Speaker 7: Person of this type chooses his duke for a reason
Speaker 7: possession control files.
Speaker 4: There was something unique about tense brain. He talked in
Speaker 4: terms of a voice in his head, and this voice
Speaker 4: would start saying things about women.
Speaker 8: Yet very blue eyes when he really got to go,
Speaker 8: and his eyes went absolutely black.
Speaker 2: Murder, leaving the cherson of this type hungry unfulfilled, would
Speaker 2: also leave him with the obviously irrational belief that the
Speaker 2: next time he did it he would be fulfilled, and
Speaker 2: the next time he did it he would be fulfilled,
Speaker 2: or the next time he did it he would be fulfilled.
Speaker 2: Theodore Bundy has escaped, suspected of dozens of sex killings
Speaker 2: in Washington State, Idaho, Utah, and Colorado.
Speaker 1: I think things are going to work out That's about
Speaker 1: all I have to say.
Speaker 4: Monday is acting as an own lawyer.
Speaker 5: What is unusual to see is that many of the
Speaker 5: onlookers are women.
Speaker 3: You a little scared when you.
Speaker 1: Look at him.
Speaker 4: He just doesn't look like the type to kill combany
Speaker 4: real killer.
Speaker 3: Theodore Bundy has escaped once again, one of the FBI's
Speaker 3: most wanted man.
Speaker 4: He was charming and looking Mark, sure you have the
Speaker 4: right guy.
Speaker 2: I mean, I thought it animal and I'm not crazy.
Speaker 5: I'm a bit personality, the normal.
Speaker 4: Individual, interesting motherfucker, and I have a little bit of information.
Speaker 4: I feel like if anybody is up to speed with
Speaker 4: true crime stuff, they already kind of know about the
Speaker 4: mainstream his victims and stuff like that. So I want
Speaker 4: to just talk about some of the stuff that you're
Speaker 4: not going to find in the Netflix documentary. So Ted
Speaker 4: Bundy's mom, Louise, legally changed Ted's name from Theodore Robert
Speaker 4: Cowell to Theodore Robert Nelson for no discernible reason whatsoever.
Speaker 4: And then she ends up married to Johnny Culpepper Bundy
Speaker 4: and changed Ted's name once again. So you know the theory,
Speaker 4: or it's not a theory. Ted Bundy's mom was his
Speaker 4: sister raised by Louise, who was his grandmother.
Speaker 3: Well, I don't know, you're saying his mom's.
Speaker 4: Louise, but he only knew her as his mom, So
Speaker 4: I'm taking it this is his grandmother. Yeah, so she
Speaker 4: gets Ted his name is Theodore Robert Cowell and then
Speaker 4: she changes it to Theodore Robert Nelson, and then she
Speaker 4: ends up getting married to uh Bundy and changes his
Speaker 4: name again to Bundy. But there's this weirdness like he
Speaker 4: doesn't have a birth certificate and stuff like that. There's
Speaker 4: almost no record of him ever being born.
Speaker 6: Yeah, he's It's We've maybe said this already, but it's
Speaker 6: strikingly similar to Jack Nicholson's story, Jack Nicholson's mom. And
Speaker 6: when you say that Ted Bundy's mom was his sister,
Speaker 6: don't think that, like his sister was impregnated and gave
Speaker 6: birth to him. He thought his mom was his sister
Speaker 6: because she had him so young. I mean, just in
Speaker 6: case that, you know, confused some people.
Speaker 9: Bit.
Speaker 6: Yeah, so he was raised by his grandmother, thought his
Speaker 6: grandmother was his mom.
Speaker 3: I mean, did he ever know the truth about.
Speaker 4: That way later in life? Yeah?
Speaker 3: I think Jack Nicholson was thirty seven years.
Speaker 4: Old when he yeah, so so was Ted Bundy, and they.
Speaker 3: He said, played by Jack Nicholson.
Speaker 4: Dude, I said that, and somebody got mad as fuck
Speaker 4: at me.
Speaker 6: Oh, let's not have some fun and kick around some
Speaker 6: crazy ideas. I mean, it sounds like you're marrying yourself too.
Speaker 4: Do you want to know? It's ironic? I said it
Speaker 4: on Dangerous World podcast and I got fucking attacked as
Speaker 4: fuck after I said that, and they were showing me
Speaker 4: all these ry no no, no, no, no, oh yeah listeners
Speaker 4: Ryan's listeners, because they were like, look at this picture
Speaker 4: Jack Nicholson, and look at this picture of Ted Bundy.
Speaker 4: But it's like we were talking to our guest that
Speaker 4: we had on earlier. There's characters, and I feel like
Speaker 4: they're interchangeable. Sometimes they get swapped out and shit and
Speaker 4: like weird stuff. Sojack Nicholson, Ted Bundy, I don't know.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's all strange.
Speaker 4: So this Johnny Culpepper Bundy, by the way, was a
Speaker 4: former Navy man and himself and a bunch of his
Speaker 4: family members were employed at a military hospital at a
Speaker 4: joint Army slash Air Force complex. So this was taking
Speaker 4: place in the early seventies, and so we were talking
Speaker 4: about Jack Nicholson, we might as well say, like, this
Speaker 4: is more Laurel Kenyony type shit with Ted.
Speaker 6: With the military connections, I mean a military hospitals, bases, daycares.
Speaker 3: Seemed to be some very nefarious stuff being covered up
Speaker 3: with these places.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and so Ted attended Woodrow Wilson High School in Tacoma, Washington,
Speaker 4: at least according to his former classmates, he did. But
Speaker 4: here's the thing that cannot be verified, since all records
Speaker 4: of Bundy's enrollment there have strangely disappeared, just like it's
Speaker 4: sucking birth certificate.
Speaker 3: Well, was there ever a birth certificate?
Speaker 4: Like see a fucking homunculous baby?
Speaker 6: You're acting like, I mean, I'm not saying you're saying this,
Speaker 6: but the way this is worded, that his enrollment records disappeared.
Speaker 3: But did they ever exist? It's not like they went
Speaker 3: in there and cleaned.
Speaker 4: This guy up, right, I surely said, but I mean
Speaker 4: they don't exist.
Speaker 3: So but did they at one point?
Speaker 6: Because that's kind of what they try to say about
Speaker 6: Bob Lazar when his story about all this a UFO shit.
Speaker 6: They went and looked at where he claimed to have
Speaker 6: gone to school and they're like, oh my gosh, they got.
Speaker 3: Rid of all the records I was even here. But
Speaker 3: with with Ted Bundy.
Speaker 6: Mounculus, the way you put it, I'm picturing like you
Speaker 6: just found a kid or you were handed this kid
Speaker 6: might not even be your daughter's kid, but you raised
Speaker 6: this kid for whatever reason. I mean, they're saying that
Speaker 6: it's the daughter's kid of this woman who raised him.
Speaker 3: Louise, But we don't know that.
Speaker 6: We don't know what the fuck Louise was into, and
Speaker 6: maybe this is one of those kids that.
Speaker 3: They yeah, manipulated and then gave to a handler.
Speaker 4: Whoever Louise is That to me makes more sense than
Speaker 4: the sister getting pregnant.
Speaker 3: Right, I'm not saying she did it.
Speaker 6: I mean there's the tell tale always his real mom
Speaker 6: was a prostitute. She would service her clientele right in
Speaker 6: the presence of young Ted. But it also makes you wonder, like,
Speaker 6: how long did she even have him? In this narrative
Speaker 6: and this story, how long did this woman have this kid?
Speaker 6: But she was pulling tricks while he was in the
Speaker 6: same you know.
Speaker 4: Studio before the grandma got him.
Speaker 3: Yeah, but it just seems like in this story, the
Speaker 3: grandma would have taken him immediately. I don't know unless.
Speaker 4: Unless it's like we were saying, and it's all just
Speaker 4: a story.
Speaker 3: Yeah, like why is this old woman have this young kid?
Speaker 3: And you know, you could say, oh, it was her
Speaker 3: daughter's kid, really, but.
Speaker 6: For some reason she ends up with him. She changes
Speaker 6: his name twice, she shack, She fucking pairs up with
Speaker 6: this was it Navy?
Speaker 3: Yeah he maybe guy and.
Speaker 6: Changes her his name to his name Johnny Culpepper Bundy
Speaker 6: to Yeah.
Speaker 4: So weirdness, right, I mean, did the guy adopt him?
Speaker 4: Not that I know of. So and so here's the thing.
Speaker 4: In July of nineteen seventy three, Bundy flew to the
Speaker 4: San Francisco area, just as the dusk was settling from
Speaker 4: the fucking spree of Zodiac ritual murders that had terrorized
Speaker 4: the city. Interesting timing, not really.
Speaker 6: You know, your your one preak shows kind of losing it.
Speaker 6: It's zest with the crowd. You gotta get them something new.
Speaker 6: So it makes perfect sense they would fla Bundy in there.
Speaker 4: But it's like we were saying in the very first episode,
Speaker 4: all those other serial killers were the training wheels for
Speaker 4: bringing in like the Bundies and shit. We don't even
Speaker 4: know where Bundy fucking came from, honestly, right, like literally
Speaker 4: he just dropped off at this That's how.
Speaker 3: I like got a cover story with lots of holes in.
Speaker 4: Then, just after his return to Washington, women began disappearing
Speaker 4: from the Seattle Tacoma area. Before that time, the Seattle
Speaker 4: area had experienced very few murders, but that was about
Speaker 4: to change drastically. So my other theory is, did he
Speaker 4: go to San Francisco to get trained because there were
Speaker 4: no murders going on at all. He flies to San
Speaker 4: Francisco just as the Zodiac murders are dropping off. Then
Speaker 4: he flies back to Washington and bitches start fucking turning
Speaker 4: up dead and decapitate and shit all over the place.
Speaker 3: Well, and then you referred it makes me think of.
Speaker 6: The crime scenes and True Detective that a lot of
Speaker 6: the stuff that Bundy was first doing, the twigs.
Speaker 4: And berries, the twigs and berries.
Speaker 6: So you know, that sounds like all that random shit
Speaker 6: that started popping off in the Santa Cruz Hills where
Speaker 6: you have these like almost ludicrous to the amount of
Speaker 6: being like bad TV, just fucking coult slaughters m It's
Speaker 6: just they're just going through the fucking mountains around that
Speaker 6: Santa Cruz area.
Speaker 3: But I mean maybe he was a part of that.
Speaker 6: Maybe that was like they saw the Phoenix program's success
Speaker 6: in Vietnam and then they come back here and they're like,
Speaker 6: we could just do this here, and you know, Santa Cruz,
Speaker 6: San Francisco, that whole area, and now like we need
Speaker 6: to expand, we need some new franchises. We could get
Speaker 6: this Ted guy to manage the Seattle area. You know,
Speaker 6: he could just be put loose there.
Speaker 4: Mm hm. And July nineteen seventy three when he flew
Speaker 4: to San Francis Cisco, that was a year after William
Speaker 4: Colby came back. Yeah, so God only knows now. The
Speaker 4: body of the first victim attributed to Bundy was found
Speaker 4: on December sixth, nineteen seventy three. Catherine Mary Divine. She
Speaker 4: had last been seen two weeks earlier getting into a
Speaker 4: pickup truck after running away from home. The man from
Speaker 4: whom she will accepted the ride was not Ted Bundy,
Speaker 4: witness confirmed. It's also pretty odd that her body was
Speaker 4: found to be missing its heart, liver, and lungs, later
Speaker 4: attributed to scavenging animals. But if it was scavenging animals.
Speaker 4: The fucking scavengers were very selective. And it also doesn't
Speaker 4: fit the mo of any of the other Bundy victims.
Speaker 4: So what do you think about this?
Speaker 3: Well, the whole animal thing.
Speaker 6: Yes, predatory animals will go for the liver, like with
Speaker 6: the when a wolf pack takes down and elk. The
Speaker 6: alpha gets the liver, but you just don't stop eating.
Speaker 6: Oh we got the lungs and the liver and what
Speaker 6: else is missing?
Speaker 3: The heart?
Speaker 9: M h.
Speaker 6: Yeah, animals don't just like go for the gourmet and
Speaker 6: then just leave the scraps.
Speaker 3: So that's kind of weird. Also, the other.
Speaker 4: Question was, well, she got into a truck. Witness confirmed
Speaker 4: was not Ted Bundy, right, but they attributed this as
Speaker 4: his very first victim. None of the other victims they
Speaker 4: found that were attributed to Tad Bundy had missing organs.
Speaker 4: So where was this? This was in the Seattle area, okay,
Speaker 4: seventy three. So next to disappear was Linda Heey in
Speaker 4: the morning hours of February first, nineteen seventy four. According
Speaker 4: to the official version of events, Linda was abducted from
Speaker 4: the home that she shared with roommates. Okay, so Bundy
Speaker 4: allegedly entered the house undetected by any of the home's
Speaker 4: other occupants, crept noiselessly downstairs, overpowered and killed Linda without
Speaker 4: waking a single fucking roommate, who, by the way, were
Speaker 4: sleeping just on the other side of a thin plywood wall,
Speaker 4: and without leaving behind any signs of a struggle. He
Speaker 4: also wrapped Linda's body, carried it back upstairs undetected, and
Speaker 4: then returned, still unnoticed, to make Linda's fucking bed, hang
Speaker 4: up her fucking nightgown, and grab a change of her
Speaker 4: fucking clothes. Nothing unusual about any of that, though, right
Speaker 4: the only remains of Linda Healey that were ever found
Speaker 4: was her skull, which investigators speculated that she had been
Speaker 4: bludgeoned to death. According to Heally's mother, the positive identification
Speaker 4: of that skull was based on one single fucking tooth,
Speaker 4: raising the question of whether Linda was ever actually found
Speaker 4: out all So, what do you think about this, because
Speaker 4: in the documentaries it makes it out to be that
Speaker 4: Linda had one other roommate away on the other side
Speaker 4: of the house, and you know, that's why nobody heard
Speaker 4: him coming in and out, But she had actually had
Speaker 4: several roommates, and to pull all this off and then
Speaker 4: make her bed, hang up her night gown, grab a
Speaker 4: change of clothes for her. What do you think about that?
Speaker 3: I mean, are you suggesting that this may have been
Speaker 3: done somewhere else? Or yeah, maybe.
Speaker 4: Not at all, because maybe not at all.
Speaker 3: Their blood.
Speaker 4: They said that there was blood on her mattress, but
Speaker 4: I looked at the pictures. Definitely could have been period blood.
Speaker 4: To me, it could have been old blood.
Speaker 3: That was it.
Speaker 4: Mm hmmm.
Speaker 3: And she was allegedly bludgeoned.
Speaker 4: Mm hmmm.
Speaker 6: I mean, if you nick your forehead, it bleeds like
Speaker 6: a stuck pig. So to have your fucking skull bashed
Speaker 6: the fuck in makes me, Hey, you're gonna make some noises.
Speaker 4: No signs of a struggle too, didn't wake a single person.
Speaker 6: Well, god knows, when you kill somebody, you want to
Speaker 6: take him out then return to make the bed.
Speaker 4: That makes a hell of a lot of sense, but
Speaker 4: it just does it.
Speaker 3: So he's cleaning up her room for her, Yeah, after
Speaker 3: killing her. He didn't want to. That's any other rap
Speaker 3: with your roommates.
Speaker 4: Grabbed, hung her night gown up, grabbed her the dead body,
Speaker 4: a change of clothes, So can we say maybe Linda
Speaker 4: and heally, is it real?
Speaker 3: I don't know.
Speaker 4: Do you think she's a character because she was also on.
Speaker 3: The news, right, I don't think she would have to
Speaker 3: be fake to be a part of all this.
Speaker 4: No, she wasn't like a news anchor, right.
Speaker 3: So when you say she was on the news, you.
Speaker 4: Well like a character, so you should tell.
Speaker 6: You know, you keep alluding to the episode that we
Speaker 6: did earlier for our other shows. We did kind of
Speaker 6: a swapcast thing with a guest who's not quite to
Speaker 6: the level of human vibrations but also very much on
Speaker 6: the wagon that much of this stuff is not only exaggerated,
Speaker 6: but you know, sometimes just straight up created. So yeah,
Speaker 6: if she's like a newscaster, some I mean newscasters are
Speaker 6: at least like, in small pockets, celebrities of type.
Speaker 3: I mean you'll see them out at dinner and you're like,
Speaker 3: oh my god, she's on the news.
Speaker 6: So I mean, yeah, who knows she could have been
Speaker 6: a character because the fact that.
Speaker 4: They found this bashed in skull and identified it off
Speaker 4: of one tooth, and the type of forensics they were
Speaker 4: doing in the seventies wasn't like they took DNA from
Speaker 4: that tooth. They just said, this looks like one of
Speaker 4: Linda's teeth. This must be Linda.
Speaker 3: Well, many people, especially I don't know.
Speaker 6: This was the seventies, so it might not have been
Speaker 6: as common, But most people have dental records, and it's
Speaker 6: supposed to be one of the most.
Speaker 3: You know, tight form of science.
Speaker 6: It's not like DNA science, which is flawed in lots
Speaker 6: of ways, but your dental records are supposed to be
Speaker 6: pretty spot on, almost.
Speaker 4: Like fingerprints, like one tooth do you think.
Speaker 6: I don't know the extent of it, but I do
Speaker 6: know that they have identified bodies burned beyond record. I
Speaker 6: mean it could have been but whether it was her
Speaker 6: being killed at all or not being killed at this house,
Speaker 6: the fact that.
Speaker 3: They want to paint.
Speaker 6: The narrative that this is where the murder took place,
Speaker 6: but they didn't even bother to like go stage a
Speaker 6: crime scene. This woman disappears a skull that couldn't have
Speaker 6: been hers, I mean, based on so what was it
Speaker 6: the mom said?
Speaker 4: The mom said, the positive identification of this skull was
Speaker 4: based on a single tooth.
Speaker 3: So is she saying that in like a doubtful way yeah, okay.
Speaker 4: I mean, I think if it was your kids.
Speaker 3: So she's like, you'd want more than that in the depths.
Speaker 6: Of woe, like to the level of Johnny Gosh's mom perhaps,
Speaker 6: and she doesn't buy the bullshit their feet in her Yeah,
Speaker 6: it's very sketchy, And the fact that it's supposed to
Speaker 6: be one of Bundy's first victims is kind of weird too,
Speaker 6: because you know.
Speaker 4: It seems meticulous for someone who's just getting started, that's
Speaker 4: for fucking sure.
Speaker 6: If that's the funny thing about Bundy is he seemed
Speaker 6: to start meticulous, and near the end of his reign
Speaker 6: he was going into a goddamn dormitory with a hammer
Speaker 6: and just fucking.
Speaker 4: Going all out dismastic.
Speaker 3: It's in whack a mole. Yeah, fucking arcade.
Speaker 4: Well, so, okay, if this was even Bundy, right, So
Speaker 4: that's another theory.
Speaker 6: If it was Bundy, somebody went out of their way
Speaker 6: to make this look like something it wasn't.
Speaker 4: Right.
Speaker 3: This is also.
Speaker 4: Interesting now, the Pacific Northwest was also dealing with another
Speaker 4: emerging problem in the spring of nineteen seventy four, which
Speaker 4: was an abundance of what we're referred to as cattle mutilations.
Speaker 4: Conspiracy theories, frequently involving UFOs and alien experimentation floated around,
Speaker 4: but many police investigators and independent researchers linked those occurrences to
Speaker 4: local satanic cult activity because they would secretly love to
Speaker 4: brainwash everyone with UFO shit. But you know what I
Speaker 4: find interesting about this that they were finding cattle mutilations
Speaker 4: the same time Bundy was running around, and they blamed it,
Speaker 4: and then the police said it was cult activity and shit.
Speaker 4: In the Pacific Northwest in Oregon, my cousin's been texting
Speaker 4: me like a lot about there being cattle mutilations popping up,
Speaker 4: And the first thing she says was, it's aliens. They're
Speaker 4: drained of blood, They're this, they're that. I bet you
Speaker 4: there's some fucking serial murder shit going on always in
Speaker 4: the Pacific Northwest, you know what I'm saying, Like, it's.
Speaker 6: Always We've had cattle mutilations and serial killers since the seventies.
Speaker 3: It's never like stopped.
Speaker 4: What do you think it is because it's so close
Speaker 4: to Seattle or what? What do you mean this Pacific
Speaker 4: Northwest like where we are in like Oregon, the I
Speaker 4: five murders and all that. Do you think like, well,
Speaker 4: it comes from there, and like trickles.
Speaker 6: Down, we happen to be damn near sin Point between
Speaker 6: Portland and San Francisco. And then Seattle's only a few
Speaker 6: hours in car north of Portland.
Speaker 4: So you're saying we could be victims of a potential
Speaker 4: future serial killer.
Speaker 3: I mean, you don't give them any ideas. If they
Speaker 3: want to shut you up.
Speaker 4: I've donet let the cat out of the bag.
Speaker 3: I mean, I can see the I five from our window.
Speaker 6: Oh god, the I five is the freeway we take
Speaker 6: when we take the freeway.
Speaker 4: I'm just learning this. So on July third, nineteen seventy four,
Speaker 4: a law enforcement summit was held in Olympia, Washington that
Speaker 4: was attended by one hundred representatives from Washington and Oregon.
Speaker 4: A prime topic of conversation at the summit was the
Speaker 4: wave of missing girls, which was actually kind of weird
Speaker 4: and fucked up since only one of the girl's remains
Speaker 4: had been discovered at that time, and it didn't necessarily
Speaker 4: confirm that she had been met with foul play, and
Speaker 4: there was no indication whatsoever that the disappearances, which occurred
Speaker 4: over a wide geographic area were connected in any way.
Speaker 4: So why was this already the hot topic?
Speaker 6: Well, all it kind of is reminiscent of me to
Speaker 6: how the military always seems to know who they're going
Speaker 6: to be fighting in what area way before the war
Speaker 6: actually breaks out. So it's like, yeah, they're gearing up
Speaker 6: knowing that this is going to be the next big
Speaker 6: thing they're fighting against. Why do they know that at
Speaker 6: this early on? It's this It's nineteen seventy four, still,
Speaker 6: I mean, this is definitely enough time has passed since
Speaker 6: the Manson killings.
Speaker 3: This is five years later, and.
Speaker 4: You think they were being on the offensive or defensive?
Speaker 4: I mean, or do you think that they were planning
Speaker 4: this shit?
Speaker 3: Well, I don't think it would have gone down to that.
Speaker 6: The level of all the law enforcement people, I think
Speaker 6: that they're definitely role players in this game, most.
Speaker 3: Of them, probably unwittingly.
Speaker 6: You know, they're just little ponds in the grand scheme
Speaker 6: of things. But yeah, whoever set this meeting up or summit,
Speaker 6: it was, yeah, here's the next thing for you.
Speaker 3: This is going to be an issue by nineteen eighty,
Speaker 3: there's gonna be twenty by in nineteen ninety, there could
Speaker 3: be hundreds.
Speaker 6: Yeah, no joke, it's almost also like when Fauci and
Speaker 6: all these fuckers meet up and they're.
Speaker 4: Like the World Economic Forum.
Speaker 3: No, no, no, not even them.
Speaker 6: It's just like these drills that they run like at
Speaker 6: John Hopkins University.
Speaker 4: Like what if there was a pandemic type shit. Yeah,
Speaker 4: that's that's what it felt.
Speaker 3: Like, preparing for what we know is going to happen.
Speaker 4: Yeah. When I read that about the summit, I was thinking,
Speaker 4: this is, you know, like a rehearsal for the big show.
Speaker 3: Like, yeah, they're having a little pepp rally.
Speaker 4: Yeah. So, each of the seven girls that disappeared, Katherine Divine,
Speaker 4: Linda and Healey, Donna Manson, Susan Rancourt, Kathleen Parks, Brenda Ball,
Speaker 4: and Susanne Hawkins had vanished without a single clue having
Speaker 4: been left behind. There were no witnesses and no forensic
Speaker 4: evidence to tie anyone to any of the crime scenes.
Speaker 4: In some of the cases, it couldn't even be determined
Speaker 4: when or where the crime had occurred. Completely undetectable, maybe
Speaker 4: by design, I think, as a beginning serial killer, when
Speaker 4: there's not even a lot of serial killers to be found,
Speaker 4: it's odd that he was so undetectable. Not a scrap
Speaker 4: of evidence.
Speaker 6: Well, you also got to take into consideration the fact
Speaker 6: that the serial killer phenomenon being slightly new.
Speaker 3: Do they even have like advanced for in teams? Why
Speaker 3: would a local police station even be able to deal
Speaker 3: with something that's never been an issue before? Because that's
Speaker 3: very true.
Speaker 6: You're not having these murders left and right until the
Speaker 6: late seventies, late sixties through the mid seventies where it really.
Speaker 3: Starts to take off.
Speaker 6: Having a summit like this would be like, and now
Speaker 6: we need all this money too to fight this new
Speaker 6: emergence of all these serial killers. So I think pretty
Speaker 6: much nice back in the day, the FBI would just
Speaker 6: step in.
Speaker 3: Yeah, they weren't equipped to handle it on the local level.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean you always bring up good points. That
Speaker 4: gets me to thinking about shit, because how about this.
Speaker 4: Not only is there no good forensics and shit like
Speaker 4: to in, no good crime scene investigating, like they don't
Speaker 4: even know what they're doing. Really, they could have been
Speaker 4: contaminating evidence and all kinds of shit. Let's go in
Speaker 4: a completely different fucking because a lot of the victims,
Speaker 4: friends and family and roommates and shit like that say,
Speaker 4: it's almost as if they disappeared right with no trace
Speaker 4: of anything left behind. I almost want to go human
Speaker 4: vibrations and say that none of these girls were real.
Speaker 6: That that would be just at first glance, not a
Speaker 6: bad theory.
Speaker 4: I don't In all of the documentaries, you only ever
Speaker 4: see adult pictures of them. There's no pictures of them
Speaker 4: as babies, there's no pictures of them as kids.
Speaker 3: One of them's a local news celebrity.
Speaker 4: Mm hmm, what if and that sucks for Let's just
Speaker 4: say they are real, and like, there's victims family members
Speaker 4: out there that would be like fuck you, But like
Speaker 4: what if they were what if they were all fake?
Speaker 6: If you're a victim family member who would like to
Speaker 6: reach out and say fuck you Julia, you can go
Speaker 6: to cosmicpeach dot com send her an email, and if
Speaker 6: you don't get any keep going with the theory.
Speaker 4: But yeah, so I mean to disappear without a trace,
Speaker 4: and I don't know, like in all of the documentaries,
Speaker 4: it's only one family member that's like, yeah, they were
Speaker 4: taken and they can find crisis actors really easy, and shit,
Speaker 4: you know they've done that a million times.
Speaker 3: Oh and you know we always talk about how back
Speaker 3: when they first start doing these staged events slash false flags.
Speaker 3: They didn't have Internet sleuths willing to tear it apart
Speaker 3: the minute the shit gets put out. They're gonna look
Speaker 3: for holes in the story. They're gonna look for inconsistencies.
Speaker 6: They're gonna look for Oh, this person also showed up
Speaker 6: at the Boston marathon bombing. She was the one that
Speaker 6: was there at the Parkland school shooting. She was also
Speaker 6: at Sandy Hook. Back then, they didn't have anything going
Speaker 6: on like that, so they could be so sloppy and just, yeah,
Speaker 6: disappear people who never really existed in the first place.
Speaker 3: Is something that would be easy to pull off.
Speaker 6: You're not going to have people come out and say,
Speaker 6: anybody who knew them come forward and talk to me
Speaker 6: so I can verify if I think this person's real
Speaker 6: or not.
Speaker 3: I mean, that's just can you imagine in the seventies
Speaker 3: the level of.
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, thoughts, oh yeah, it was non existent.
Speaker 3: Really, I mean, you would just most people would just take.
Speaker 4: They said it, so therefore it is true.
Speaker 6: Yeah, it's on the news, and I don't know anybody
Speaker 6: that knows this person. But look, they just interviewed somebody
Speaker 6: who said they were their friend and they're crying, so
Speaker 6: this is real.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and they also made Ted Bunny you have to
Speaker 4: be like a handsome, good looking get dude and like, look,
Speaker 4: freaking Brad Pitt's a murderer. That's pretty much what they did. Yeah,
Speaker 4: but we have to have a bad guy to pin
Speaker 4: these so called murders on, right, So conveniently, on July fourteenth,
Speaker 4: just days after the summit that we talked about earlier,
Speaker 4: Janisawt and Denise Naslin both reportedly disappeared from the very
Speaker 4: crowded Lake Samamish Park in broad daylight and in front
Speaker 4: of literally thousands of potential witnesses, including a sizeable part
Speaker 4: of the Seattle Police Force, who just so happened to
Speaker 4: be holding their annual picnic there that day. A total
Speaker 4: of eight witnesses came forward claiming to have seen the
Speaker 4: elusive predator in the park that day. One of them
Speaker 4: had seen Janis aught in the company of a man
Speaker 4: with sandy blonde hair around the time of her disappearance.
Speaker 4: The descriptions offered by the other witnesses varied. Only two
Speaker 4: of them were ever able to identify Bundy as the
Speaker 4: man they had seen, and only after his image had
Speaker 4: been widely aired by the media, but the one thing
Speaker 4: that several of them agreed on was that the man
Speaker 4: had introduced himself as Ted. So now we conveniently have
Speaker 4: a name for our mystery man. And this occurred just
Speaker 4: days after the summit. What do you think about that?
Speaker 6: I mean, the timing of it or the lack of
Speaker 6: like witness testimony, and also the witness testimon Well that does.
Speaker 3: Stand is calling this guy a blonde.
Speaker 4: There's several layers to this, because let's go with this.
Speaker 4: They hold the summit and they say, all these girls
Speaker 4: are gone missing, what are we going to do about it?
Speaker 4: Just days later they got a name for this guy.
Speaker 3: And they're also showing you how easy this happens.
Speaker 6: Look, you can be abducted right in the middle of
Speaker 6: a fucking please conference or pretty much police picnic policic.
Speaker 6: I mean, yeah, they're off duty, they're probably tying one on,
Speaker 6: eating lots of food and not really acting like they're
Speaker 6: on the job.
Speaker 3: But it's just not a good look.
Speaker 4: Also, out of thousands of people that were at the park,
Speaker 4: one of them said he was a sandy, blondheaded person.
Speaker 4: The other witnesses varied on what he looked like.
Speaker 6: And well, remember Ted could change what he looked like
Speaker 6: just by wanting to.
Speaker 3: According to the.
Speaker 4: Lot in the Dead Puss Smell.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, he's walking around in a cloud of stench.
Speaker 4: Now, how about this if they if these girls didn't
Speaker 4: even exist and they just had some people like, Hey,
Speaker 4: so you saw a guy today that well, I mean,
Speaker 4: what do you think about that?
Speaker 6: I mean, it's always a possibility in my mind that
Speaker 6: these things are orchestrated.
Speaker 3: Especially when.
Speaker 6: I don't know you you have this legendary serial killer,
Speaker 6: Ted Bundy, where this is just the start of it,
Speaker 6: and there's already so many inconsistencies in it. And when
Speaker 6: you get near the end of Ted's killing spree, he's
Speaker 6: killing people like two counties apart in Florida, where to
Speaker 6: clean up the crime of his first killing and then
Speaker 6: get to it. Even in the best traffic scenario where
Speaker 6: there's no delay, he still couldn't have done it.
Speaker 3: So this shit continues throughout his entire story.
Speaker 6: It seems to be, you know, all these holes in
Speaker 6: the story from day one and then all the way
Speaker 6: to the end.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm actually gonna touch on one of those closer
Speaker 4: to the end of the episode, because it's just so.
Speaker 4: It's like you were saying, it's just almost impossible for
Speaker 4: this stuff to all have been him. But like, why
Speaker 4: the fuck would this stealthy killer choose to show his
Speaker 4: face before thousands of potential witnesses, and why would he
Speaker 4: use his real fucking name? And I think the most
Speaker 4: important why here is why in the actual fuck if
Speaker 4: this is really the story, this Ted Bundy not appear
Speaker 4: in one of the hundreds of photographs that were taken
Speaker 4: at La Samamish Park that day.
Speaker 3: Good question.
Speaker 4: And they're having this picnic and shit, like you would
Speaker 4: think a motherfucker would have noticed him, or he would
Speaker 4: have been in like a photo bomb like some lawyer's
Speaker 4: waldo type shit somewhere, and get this shit. One witness
Speaker 4: saw a girl matching Denise Naslin's description ride off from
Speaker 4: the park with a biker gang. She reportedly yelled, quote, no,
Speaker 4: I can't let me off and quote Then many years later,
Speaker 4: Naslyn's mother wrote a brief note that was displayed at
Speaker 4: her daughter's memorial service, which read, quote God forgive them
Speaker 4: for what they've done. I love you end quote. Unless
Speaker 4: Ted was trans and pioneered the day them trend, it
Speaker 4: does seem to be an odd choice of words.
Speaker 3: You just broke the case. Ted was the day Them's
Speaker 3: all alone. He was a trance and I would have
Speaker 3: got away with it too if it wasn't for you
Speaker 3: pesty podcasters.
Speaker 4: So there are witnesses that say they see someone that
Speaker 4: looked exactly like Denise Nasalin right off and obviously struggling
Speaker 4: with a biker gang. And then Denise Naslyn's mother writes
Speaker 4: something for her memorial that says, God, forgive them for
Speaker 4: what they've done.
Speaker 3: Why why angels?
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean it is the seventies. It's I don't know,
Speaker 4: it's just all to me. It's like a bunch of
Speaker 4: random shit that they've like placed on.
Speaker 6: Biker gangs play a significant and interesting role in a
Speaker 6: lot of this stuff, going back to the Laurel Canyon
Speaker 6: and San Francisco music scenes. They rubbed shoulders with a
Speaker 6: lot of these other people who are kind of tied
Speaker 6: into all this other stuff.
Speaker 3: Hunter s.
Speaker 6: Thompson, the stabbing at the Three Rolling Stones concert, Oh,
Speaker 6: the Fremont Yeah, or the ultramont so and you know,
Speaker 6: biker gangs were a prominent feature of the sixties and seventies.
Speaker 3: But it is something that pops up a lot in
Speaker 3: weird places.
Speaker 6: It's almost like, you know, when you're looking at a
Speaker 6: staged scene of chaos, they always strategically place shoes and
Speaker 6: something to.
Speaker 3: Do with firefighters. But it's like the fucking biker gangs
Speaker 3: play a weird.
Speaker 4: Role they're in. They're always like.
Speaker 3: In the LSD movement, they were in like all the
Speaker 3: big underground drug markets in the seventies too.
Speaker 4: Well, I was gonna say, it's like they're always in
Speaker 4: the background somewhere, you know.
Speaker 3: Yeah, they're like foot soldiers.
Speaker 6: So the fact that she was taken off from this
Speaker 6: picnic by a biker gang doesn't seem that insignificant.
Speaker 4: No, we're random and so following the like some mammish disappearances,
Speaker 4: the task force tracking the Seattle killer was dubbed the
Speaker 4: Ted Squad, and.
Speaker 3: It'll be a killer fucking movie, Ted Squad. I could
Speaker 3: see like Robert Rodriguez directing a Tarantino executive producing Ted Squad.
Speaker 4: It would be a cool movie, just like Jim Morrison
Speaker 4: and Charles Manson, like the real story, the real Ted Bundy.
Speaker 4: You know.
Speaker 3: Uh.
Speaker 4: And one of the very first teds ever reported to
Speaker 4: the task force was none other than Theodore Robert.
Speaker 3: But so they're just going around looking at any Ted
Speaker 3: Nick could find.
Speaker 4: Yeah, they were also looking at any Volkswagon they could find,
Speaker 4: because they said that he drove a volts Wagon.
Speaker 6: So wasn't it the Shining Book had the Volkswagen being
Speaker 6: yellow and Kubrick changed it to red?
Speaker 4: Or was it the vice versa?
Speaker 6: So Kubrick made the change to the yellow bug that
Speaker 6: to me always made.
Speaker 3: If that doesn't make you think of Ted Bundy.
Speaker 4: And Jack Nicholson Ted Bundy.
Speaker 3: Again, that's why I brought that up.
Speaker 4: Literally, the connections are weird.
Speaker 6: Jack Nicholson's almost like a Forrest, gumpy and kind of
Speaker 6: player in a lot of this ship. I mean I
Speaker 6: always said, if you could get anybody to be honest
Speaker 6: with you that's still alive today and get him to
Speaker 6: spill the beans on all this, Jack Nicholson would be
Speaker 6: a good one.
Speaker 4: Get alone in a room with some I would love
Speaker 4: to pick his brain.
Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean it sounds like he's kind of on
Speaker 6: the decline mentally lately. I've heard a lot of weird
Speaker 6: stuff about he's just kind of looking or acting crazy.
Speaker 4: Isn't he like a million years old?
Speaker 3: Well, he would be eighty close to it.
Speaker 9: But so.
Speaker 4: Here's a question for you, babe. You know how they
Speaker 4: say Ted Bundy's appearance could change and it's like he
Speaker 4: was a completely different person. What if it was because
Speaker 4: he was a completely different person.
Speaker 6: That's always been on the forefront of my mind when
Speaker 6: people say shit like that, like, yeah, he's a chameleon,
Speaker 6: like sometimes it didn't even look like the same guy.
Speaker 6: I mean that was the direct quote from a direct
Speaker 6: from a neighbor of his in Florida.
Speaker 4: Uh huh.
Speaker 3: And just for him to like say shit like that
Speaker 3: if that's real witness testimony.
Speaker 6: Yeah, we talk about like body doubles and stuff all
Speaker 6: the time, and or many people playing one role.
Speaker 4: Have you seen a young picture of Jack Nicholson young?
Speaker 4: How young like when he first got started?
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, I mean I loved those I literally getting.
Speaker 4: Him to look like Ted Bundy. Yeah, the skinny bridge
Speaker 4: on the nose and like the dapper kind of pushed
Speaker 4: over hair and at the beach they said he had
Speaker 4: sandy blonde hair, right, And Jack Nicholson had sandy blonde hair,
Speaker 4: did he didn't he?
Speaker 6: I think it's always been on the more brunette side,
Speaker 6: But fucking hair color is easy to deal with. I
Speaker 6: don't know, you know, it's not ever a theory that
Speaker 6: I really gave too much credence to. It was always
Speaker 6: fun to just kick it around. But there are weird ties.
Speaker 6: Even in Program to Kill, McGowan made the comparison. He's
Speaker 6: talking about Jack Nicholson and weird sceninges inside the Canyon,
Speaker 6: and he.
Speaker 3: References this his second book, Program to Kill.
Speaker 6: When he's talking about Jack Nicholson, he's saying, this is
Speaker 6: very reminiscent of Ted Bundy's story.
Speaker 4: So he he made a loose connection.
Speaker 3: I don't think he was trying to take it to
Speaker 3: where we are.
Speaker 4: I'll only take it there because why not.
Speaker 3: I mean, I can't with why not? Because they do
Speaker 3: a lot of shit.
Speaker 6: They use actors, they use created personas to push shit
Speaker 6: like this and oftentimes, like we've talked about Morrison being
Speaker 6: a literal actor and Morrison being you know, yeah, maybe
Speaker 6: that was his real name.
Speaker 3: But Ted Bundy's literally came out of thin air.
Speaker 4: So yeah, and with this whole Ted Squad thing, his
Speaker 4: name was actually turned in by his friend who we
Speaker 4: mentioned before in the last episode, the true crime author
Speaker 4: and Rule, who by the way, attended the fucking law
Speaker 4: enforcement summit we spoke about earlier, and they pretty much
Speaker 4: announced that they needed to find the bad guy who
Speaker 4: was abducting bitches, and Rule was in attendance. And then
Speaker 4: she was the first one to give his name to
Speaker 4: the police. And she was friends with him, Okay, and then.
Speaker 3: Where this creative story.
Speaker 4: That's what I'm saying. She's an author anyway, she likes stories.
Speaker 4: And then Ted would also later be reported by his
Speaker 4: fiance Liz Deadpuss enthusiast Captford. But while we're talking about
Speaker 4: and Rule, I want to go over a couple points
Speaker 4: here because it's important. In the late sixties, Bundy briefly
Speaker 4: dated Kathy Swindler, daughter of Herb Swindler, who would later
Speaker 4: become head of homicide with the Seattle Police Department during
Speaker 4: the beginning of the murder spree. He was also, of course,
Speaker 4: a longtime friend of Anne Rules. What do you think
Speaker 4: about that? That's fucking nuts.
Speaker 3: Yeah, these are small circles.
Speaker 4: Literally. Anne Rule had at least second hand connections to
Speaker 4: two Bundy victims. Denise Naslin that disappeared from Lake Samamish
Speaker 4: babysat for a friend of hers, and Brenda Ball was
Speaker 4: an acquaintance of her daughters. So Anne Rule is the
Speaker 4: first she attends the summit. She works with Bundy. She
Speaker 4: is a true crime author, She's good with stories and shit,
Speaker 4: and she knows two of the victims, and fucking I mean, it's.
Speaker 3: Just what she's speared to me, constructing the whole thing
Speaker 3: to help her writing career.
Speaker 4: It's not to help her writing career.
Speaker 3: I bet she's a true crime novelist. She's basically creating
Speaker 3: or she's right in the middle of all the shit
Speaker 3: that's going on.
Speaker 6: That's going to be the main thing she's probably gonna
Speaker 6: write about for the rest of her life.
Speaker 3: I mean, I don't know her work outside of this stuff.
Speaker 4: I've read a ton of her book.
Speaker 3: Her claim to fame is this.
Speaker 4: Yeah, so the Stranger beside Me.
Speaker 3: If this was some cheesy, fucking eighties action movie, think
Speaker 3: of Basic Instinct.
Speaker 6: You know that was the premise, was that Sharon Stone's
Speaker 6: character was a mystery novelist. I'm not necessarily saying that's
Speaker 6: what I think is going on, but it is just
Speaker 6: weird that she's she knows him, she has connections to
Speaker 6: the victims, and she's at this summit and days later,
Speaker 6: this other thing happens, and then she reports him to
Speaker 6: the TED squad.
Speaker 4: Yep.
Speaker 3: Awfully weird places to be for a woman who's not related.
Speaker 4: To any of it. Yeah, no, I know, I don't
Speaker 4: even know why she was there.
Speaker 3: Well, I mean, at the conference, I can understand why
Speaker 3: she was there, But she just happens to be in
Speaker 3: all these weird places and tight end with all these
Speaker 3: people of various aspects of this of this Bundy saga.
Speaker 4: And you know, she does kind of play a part
Speaker 4: in what happens after he gets arrested, because she was
Speaker 4: one of the ones that was Like, she's guilty of
Speaker 4: sensationalizing him too, you know, So if she's a part
Speaker 4: of the beginning, she's a part of like the after too,
Speaker 4: like the aftermath of it, writing books and going on
Speaker 4: TV talking about interviews of his character and this stranger
Speaker 4: beside me and all this stuff. Like she made a
Speaker 4: celebrity out of him, you know, she was one of.
Speaker 6: The first ones and herself mm hmmm, I mean she's
Speaker 6: making herself famous.
Speaker 4: Yeah. Another interesting point is that anthropologist Daris Swindler, who'd
Speaker 4: worked on identifying some of Bundy's victims in Washington, happened
Speaker 4: to be in Tallahassee on the night of the kya
Speaker 4: Omega murders.
Speaker 6: Why is an anthropologist helping identify victims?
Speaker 9: Is that just.
Speaker 6: Like that's just happened to be what he does. He's
Speaker 6: an anthropologist, he's not like a.
Speaker 4: And he's related to Kathy Swindler, the girl he dated.
Speaker 4: Where is it. Yeah, he's related to Kathy Swindler, the
Speaker 4: one he dated, and Herb Swindler, the one who became
Speaker 4: the head of homicide during the murders Free and he's
Speaker 4: in Tallahassee on the night of the Kyomega murders.
Speaker 3: See.
Speaker 6: That's always the things you gotta look for is people
Speaker 6: that keep I mean this is literally on the opposite
Speaker 6: corner of the United States.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and right in Washington, Washington, and then he shows
Speaker 4: up in Tallahassee on the night of the Kyomega murders.
Speaker 9: Yeah.
Speaker 6: I mean, these kind of things are the one They're
Speaker 6: the ones that make me think the most that you
Speaker 6: can say it and say it and say it and
Speaker 6: say it till you're blue in the face. You can't
Speaker 6: believe in coincidences when they keep happening.
Speaker 3: In the most convenient ways. There are there is such
Speaker 3: a thing as coincidence, but not usually in this kind
Speaker 3: of shit.
Speaker 4: Well, and to even drive that point home further about coincidences,
Speaker 4: Bundy was born on the twenty fourth of November, executed
Speaker 4: on the twenty fourth of January, and his inmate ID
Speaker 4: zero six nine zero six three sums up to twenty four.
Speaker 4: So we have three twenty fours, four five, six, six
Speaker 4: sixty six. Are you getting Jamatria, No, I'm saying four
Speaker 4: plus two is six, so six six six, I'm.
Speaker 3: Just saying, hey, it is. So does Ted Bundy really
Speaker 3: the devil?
Speaker 4: I don't know. I think it's all part of the game.
Speaker 4: You know, it's like a joke to them, the twenty fourth,
Speaker 4: twenty fourth. His number is the twenty fourth. What do
Speaker 4: you think I might look for stuff in numbers?
Speaker 3: Yeah, I on my show, my co host, he's really
Speaker 3: big into another numerical patterns, whether it be numerology, Jamatria,
Speaker 3: goa Matria.
Speaker 6: He'll correct me if I say it wrong, But yeah,
Speaker 6: I like, I think they're fun. But I don't put
Speaker 6: as much stock in that kind of shit as I
Speaker 6: do the other shit. We were just talking about where
Speaker 6: this guy's here and he happens to help identify the bodies,
Speaker 6: and then wouldn't you know it, he just happens to
Speaker 6: be in Tallahassee the night though. That shit, to me
Speaker 6: is more interesting than like, I'll look at all these
Speaker 6: numbers shit, and yeah, I'm probably that even was planned
Speaker 6: out by somebody.
Speaker 4: But I think you're right about like looking for the
Speaker 4: connections with this guy identifying the victims and stuff.
Speaker 3: Well, and it's not just him. I mean, throughout all
Speaker 3: these stories, there's very conveniently placed people that play crucial
Speaker 3: roles in totally unrelated things or a big, big like
Speaker 3: mass operation like Ted Bundy where it is related, but
Speaker 3: still like the just the small chances that he would
Speaker 3: be at those two places. He's a character in all this.
Speaker 4: Yep.
Speaker 6: So those are the patterns I like to point out.
Speaker 6: The numbers thing is fun, don't.
Speaker 4: Yeah, no, I think it is at least and you
Speaker 4: know how I am about the eights. So it was
Speaker 4: later determined that both girls who disappeared from Lake Samamish
Speaker 4: had been strangled or bludg into death, but that was
Speaker 4: a largely speculative conclusion. Only the girl's skulls and a
Speaker 4: few assorted bones were ever found, and actually the fact
Speaker 4: that only the skulls of the girls were ever found
Speaker 4: further fueled the belief that the killings were somehow cult related.
Speaker 4: Police at the time said occultism and Satan worship always
Speaker 4: found a home with many practitioners around Seattle. And I've
Speaker 4: heard a lot of people I actually had a lady
Speaker 4: on my show talk about Seattle is like crazy with it.
Speaker 3: I mean, it is.
Speaker 6: A strange city. I've been there and just all of
Speaker 6: the innovation that's taken place there, Peck industry, lots of
Speaker 6: the corporate shit started there, and it's just it's an
Speaker 6: oddly placed city, kind of nustled off of the Pugot
Speaker 6: Sound or is it fugit, but it's I felt like
Speaker 6: that city shouldn't be there the way it's built.
Speaker 3: And San Francisco is very similar.
Speaker 6: There's just hills where they build these roads that are
Speaker 6: just just like you're on a roller coaster. It's not
Speaker 6: a good place to learn how to drive stick shift.
Speaker 6: And it's just like, what is it about these certain
Speaker 6: focal points that have chosen you know, maybe Freemasons knew
Speaker 6: something about this is where a town needs to be
Speaker 6: or whatever. Have fun with your imagination on That could
Speaker 6: be a number of reasons, but there's a reason certain cities.
Speaker 3: Are where they are.
Speaker 6: Eugene, Oregon's another great example of that. There's some kind
Speaker 6: of frequency with Eugene, Oregon where the Russians and the
Speaker 6: CIA were using it as a focal point to test
Speaker 6: all this weird technology on us on each other. But
Speaker 6: getting back to the point of Seattle, the music scene also,
Speaker 6: and just you go to Seattle and surrounding areas and
Speaker 6: it's just foggy and dreary, and then there's Heroin and
Speaker 6: fucking Starbucks, and it's just a weird feeling that you
Speaker 6: feel it when you're there.
Speaker 3: Anyway, I'm speaking for myself, but I've.
Speaker 6: Heard other people say that, like, if you want to
Speaker 6: be if you fucking want to cure a depression, you
Speaker 6: don't move to Seattle.
Speaker 4: Well, yeah, and they filmed a lot of Twilight there
Speaker 4: for that reason.
Speaker 3: Was that in Seattle or Portland.
Speaker 4: They filmed it some in Portland and.
Speaker 6: Some in Seattle, and Portland to me, is very similar
Speaker 6: in the dreariness, it's not quite the same. I mean,
Speaker 6: the atmosphere is similar, but Seattle just seems weird, like
Speaker 6: the energy's off. Yeah, probably like Eugene.
Speaker 3: I lived in Eugene for about six months.
Speaker 4: Did your nipples get hard, Well, they're always hard. Did
Speaker 4: you feel weird?
Speaker 9: Though?
Speaker 6: I thought it was the strangest city I've ever lived in.
Speaker 6: I actually drove a two am to six am paper
Speaker 6: route and there was like another city that just emerged
Speaker 6: at night. Like I kind of started believing vampires after
Speaker 6: I lived in there. You just see weird shit.
Speaker 4: At night, and like skin walkers, no.
Speaker 3: Just like people that seem out of place.
Speaker 6: And I'm not talking about junkies, they're just like they're different. Yeah,
Speaker 6: And it's it's weird because I mean I was driving
Speaker 6: in all different parts of the city and wherever you went,
Speaker 6: every night, I would see something weird. And I just
Speaker 6: got to thinking, like after years after I lived there,
Speaker 6: and I learned all of this stuff that Jeremiah was
Speaker 6: researching for an episode we did, He's talking about Eugene,
Speaker 6: and it's just like, God, that makes all sorts of
Speaker 6: sense to me that that's where they were.
Speaker 4: Doing that Well, whatever experiments they were conducting could have
Speaker 4: fucking made fucking vampires out of these people.
Speaker 3: Well, and also phonetically eugenics you can't spell you eugenics. Yeah,
Speaker 3: eugene is literally the.
Speaker 4: First several genics.
Speaker 3: It's the first several letters of that word. I don't
Speaker 3: know if that's why it's named that. Oh my god,
Speaker 3: I didn't come up with that, by the way.
Speaker 4: Well, you know, uh, you know when I figured out vampires.
Speaker 3: Morial when you watch Twilight.
Speaker 4: No, when I started researching Nicholas Cage, I think he's
Speaker 4: a vampire.
Speaker 3: Well, there's that movie where's running down the street going.
Speaker 4: He played a vampire recently?
Speaker 6: Well he supposed Yeah, it was the remake Rinfield. Yeah,
Speaker 6: so Nicholas Cage also might be a time traveler.
Speaker 3: But if he's a vampire, he'd be immortal.
Speaker 4: That would explain why have you seen his.
Speaker 3: Civil War era portrait?
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah. But if he's a vampire,
Speaker 4: you know, yeah.
Speaker 3: He could have just turned. I mean, Nicholas Cages even
Speaker 3: when he was young, he looked old. Yeah, he's always
Speaker 3: had that Nicholas Cage hairline. Uh huh, he's a Coppola. Yes,
Speaker 3: if there's a bank fucking family of vampire.
Speaker 4: Well, I found his tombstone and it's in New Orleans
Speaker 4: and it's a big white pyramid cage. No, it had
Speaker 4: some weird Latin shit on it.
Speaker 3: But it's a picture of him. Like, what do you
Speaker 3: mean you found his tomb?
Speaker 4: He bought the tombstone ahead of time.
Speaker 3: Oh, it's yeah, and he bought it like in the
Speaker 3: seventeen hundreds.
Speaker 4: And it's white marble and it has weird Latin shit
Speaker 4: on it. It's the most culty looking thing I've ever seen.
Speaker 4: Do you wanna do you want to see it?
Speaker 3: Let's keep going that you can show me after.
Speaker 4: Yeah. Well, anyways, kind of getting back to the weirdness
Speaker 4: with Ted. Many people at the time were convinced that
Speaker 4: an offshoot of the Charles Manson family had moved to
Speaker 4: the Seattle area and had begun a new reign of
Speaker 4: terror led by fucking Ted quote unquote, because they hadn't
Speaker 4: identified Ted Bundy yet, and so people were coming to
Speaker 4: their own conclusions. There's cattle mutilations and all this other
Speaker 4: bs going on. You remember all those murders I talked
Speaker 4: about in the last episode that were attributed to family members,
Speaker 4: but they kind of were like swept under the rug,
Speaker 4: like late later on, like disciples of the family became murderers. Well,
Speaker 4: they thought of fucking Charles Manson family member moved to
Speaker 4: Seattle and started isn't it interesting how people are so
Speaker 4: smart and they don't even know it, like putting fucking
Speaker 4: those two together like a connection.
Speaker 3: Well, and what if Ted.
Speaker 6: Was himself a member of the family whoever Ted is
Speaker 6: because he did come down to the Bay area m hm,
Speaker 6: and that was in the seventies.
Speaker 3: But I don't do you know that the year he
Speaker 3: was born Ted? Uh huh. I'm assuming it would have
Speaker 3: been late forties, forty six, forty six, so he easily
Speaker 3: would have been old enough to be wrapped up in
Speaker 3: all that stuff.
Speaker 4: Oh my gosh. He died at forty two.
Speaker 3: So that's another that's also twenty four in reverse.
Speaker 4: Yeah, so there you go.
Speaker 3: I'm sold it's all about twenty four.
Speaker 4: Well, so, some on the police force were convinced that
Speaker 4: there was cult involvement in the murders, and a hefty
Speaker 4: file on occult activities in the area had been assembled,
Speaker 4: referred to as File one zero zero four. But of
Speaker 4: course the occult theories were ridiculed by county police and prosecutors.
Speaker 4: But they did the same thing with the Manson murders.
Speaker 4: So Ted eventually moved to Utah to attend law school
Speaker 4: at the University of Utah, where he worked as a
Speaker 4: fucking campus security guard. Ironically, and the first Utah victim
Speaker 4: credited to Ted was Nancy Wilcox, last seen on October second,
Speaker 4: nineteen seventy four. She was never seen again, dead or alive.
Speaker 4: Melissa Smith was the next to vanish. On October eighteenth,
Speaker 4: her intact nude body was found strangled and bludgeoned. But
Speaker 4: here's the thing. The body had been almost entirely drained
Speaker 4: of blood and revealed a fucking bombshell that blows the
Speaker 4: Ted Bundy mainstream narrative to shit. Melissa had not been
Speaker 4: killed immediately, but she had been kept alive for up
Speaker 4: to a week after her disappearance. But with that in mind,
Speaker 4: wouldn't it be odd to find out that her fucking
Speaker 4: makeup was undisturbed, none of her nails were broken, and
Speaker 4: there was no signs of ligatures. If she was held
Speaker 4: against her will prior to her murder, there was appslce
Speaker 4: no indication of that fact. If it was Ted Bundy
Speaker 4: who held her for that duration of time, then he
Speaker 4: had to have had fucking accomplices and wouldn't you also
Speaker 4: like to know that the day after Melissa's disappearance, Bundy
Speaker 4: fucked off on a hunting trip with his fiancee's father. Oh,
Speaker 4: by the way, Melissa just so happened to be the
Speaker 4: daughter of the chief of police in Midville, Utah. So
Speaker 4: what I'm gathering from this, kind of like the smiley
Speaker 4: face killers because they're finding out they're being held somewhere
Speaker 4: for a long time before they're killed, is that this
Speaker 4: doesn't fit the Ted Bundy narrative at fucking all. She
Speaker 4: was entirely drained of blood, but she wasn't bludgeoned or
Speaker 4: fucking suffocated or any of the other Ted Bundy victims.
Speaker 4: She was up alive for up to a week, and
Speaker 4: her makeup was undisturbed. None of her nails were broken.
Speaker 4: There was no sign. You know how I look in
Speaker 4: the morning when I wake up, how my makeup? Is
Speaker 4: you telling me? She was completely drained of blood and
Speaker 4: kidnapped for a week and her makeup was completely pristine,
Speaker 4: No nails, nothing, no signs of literatures, no bludgeoning. It
Speaker 4: doesn't even fit. And he's actually supposed to be on
Speaker 4: a fucking hunting trip when this.
Speaker 3: Is going down, Well, whether I mean that right there.
Speaker 3: He would have had to have.
Speaker 6: Nabbed her, stored her somewhere, went on this hunting trip,
Speaker 6: which oftentimes.
Speaker 3: Those can last up to a week.
Speaker 4: Mm hmm.
Speaker 6: So he gets back and then just finishes her off
Speaker 6: or yet has nothing to do with them. But like
Speaker 6: you're saying, it's not his.
Speaker 5: M at all.
Speaker 4: No, And because if you put her somewhere for a
Speaker 4: week while you were on the hunting trip, she would
Speaker 4: have cried, She would have scratched Claude escape. He could
Speaker 4: have had her somewhere secure and like drug Yeah, or
Speaker 4: so she's not crying.
Speaker 3: I mean he had gone for several days, he would
Speaker 3: have had to given her access to water. But yeah,
Speaker 3: we're entertaining that. Yeah, it doesn't mean it wasn't him,
Speaker 3: but it doesn't sound likely either.
Speaker 4: No, and she happens to be the daughter of the
Speaker 4: chief of police.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 6: It could have been a targeted type of thing too,
Speaker 6: like a like a hit or a message to that guy,
Speaker 6: or he's involved.
Speaker 3: In some shit.
Speaker 1: Mm hmm.
Speaker 4: So Melissa's disappearance was followed by that of Laura Amy,
Speaker 4: who vanished on Halloween night nineteen seventy four. Amy was
Speaker 4: also reportedly held for up to a week before her murder,
Speaker 4: and yet the hair on her strangled and bludgeoned corpse
Speaker 4: had been freshly shampooed just before or just after her death.
Speaker 4: Forensic tests revealed that she had been drunk at the
Speaker 4: time of her death as well. The local sheriff mac
Speaker 4: hauley was sold on another suspect as Laura's killer, a
Speaker 4: man who was later convicted of the brutal sex slaying
Speaker 4: of his own girlfriend. And get this shit, the fucking
Speaker 4: sheriff mac Hauley told the fucking ted squad, quote, Bundy
Speaker 4: had nothing to do with our case, So forget him.
Speaker 4: That man didn't do our case. I wish you'd get
Speaker 4: that through your head in't quote. So Amy has found
Speaker 4: right after Melissa fucking disappeared, and they're both found completely
Speaker 4: or like she's not drained of blood. So they're both
Speaker 4: found having been stashed somewhere for a week, and both
Speaker 4: of them have been like either redressed or like hair
Speaker 4: shampooed or make up done, or like this does not
Speaker 4: And then the sheriff says, this is not Bundy, Please
Speaker 4: fucking get off the Bundy thing. But there's still both
Speaker 4: Melissa and Laura. They are attributed to Ted Bundy. It
Speaker 4: just doesn't make sense to me at all. It's like
Speaker 4: a bunch of random shit that they put on him.
Speaker 3: Yeah, reminiscent of Zodiac.
Speaker 4: Yeah. There were indications that Laura had some awareness that
Speaker 4: her life was in danger. Her mother reported that she
Speaker 4: had said to her a few weeks before her death,
Speaker 4: out of the blue, quote, mother, at my funeral, I
Speaker 4: don't want to be buried in addressed end quote? Is
Speaker 4: this just a spiritual thing? Like she knew she was
Speaker 4: gonna die? Or did she know something? Oh? The holding
Speaker 4: of the victims for over a week is reminiscent of
Speaker 4: the Smiley Face killings as well that we kind of
Speaker 4: touched on at the beginning with Gacy.
Speaker 3: Yeah, the mo o and styles the same, but the
Speaker 3: victims are women.
Speaker 4: Yeah, And what I was getting at is it a
Speaker 4: spiritual thing or did she know something? Is Laura Amy
Speaker 4: told her mom that she was going to die, like
Speaker 4: right before she died.
Speaker 3: Well, she was talking about her funeral. Did she know
Speaker 3: it was going to be that week?
Speaker 4: Well, we don't know what the fuck she was into.
Speaker 6: People say weird shit like that, but it is. It
Speaker 6: is strange that she said it at that time.
Speaker 4: Do you think it's a coincidence.
Speaker 3: I don't know, Probably not.
Speaker 4: So we're going to get a little bit more into
Speaker 4: what Colby was talking about earlier with this last couple
Speaker 4: with these last couple points here. So, the night of
Speaker 4: November eighth, nineteen seventy four was supposedly a very busy
Speaker 4: night for Ted Bundy. He first allegedly attempt to abduct
Speaker 4: a girl by the name of Carol Deranch from a
Speaker 4: shopping mall in Murray, Utah. Failing in that endeavor, he
Speaker 4: went to a completely different towns supposedly and abducted Deborah
Speaker 4: Kent from outside the building where a school play was
Speaker 4: going on. And Kin's body was never found. But the
Speaker 4: fucking problem with this official version of events is that
Speaker 4: it would have been physically impossible for Ted Bundy or
Speaker 4: anyone else to have committed both of those crimes. First
Speaker 4: of all, the descriptions given by witnesses at the two
Speaker 4: crime scenes differed considerably. Fucking Deranch described her attempted abductor
Speaker 4: as having slicked back hair and the strong scent of
Speaker 4: alcohol on his breath. At the school, the suspect was
Speaker 4: described as having long, brown, wavy hair, and was said
Speaker 4: to be handsome and well dressed and with no hint
Speaker 4: of alcohol on his breath. Sure Ted could have changed
Speaker 4: his clothes, washed and restyled his hair, and swished with
Speaker 4: some fucking list sometime between the commission of the two crimes,
Speaker 4: but he would have had to do so while driving
Speaker 4: his Volkswagen at over one hundred miles per hour over
Speaker 4: rain soaked streets. Why because the two fucking crime scenes
Speaker 4: were twenty six miles apart, and according to the narrative,
Speaker 4: only fifteen minutes passed between his departure from the Deraj
Speaker 4: abduction and his first sighting at the school.
Speaker 6: And everybody knows that Volkswagens don't go one hundred miles
Speaker 6: per hour.
Speaker 4: No way, no fucking way. But I mean, it's like
Speaker 4: you were saying, there's no way, and it gets the
Speaker 4: same way in Florida, obviously, But this is the first time, Yeah,
Speaker 4: in the timelines not adding up, and.
Speaker 3: I don't remember the exact logistics of it, but the
Speaker 3: one in Florida, one of the murders does seem like
Speaker 3: Ted's emo, if there even is one. But what we're
Speaker 3: told is.
Speaker 6: And then the other one that they also pinned on him.
Speaker 6: It was a scenario a lot like this.
Speaker 3: It was like two different counties and the victim, victim
Speaker 3: b she was like a little girl, I think like Kimberly.
Speaker 3: She was like twelve twelve, And that wasn't something that
Speaker 3: he had done. And I'm not saying that he wasn't
Speaker 3: capable of all sorts of evil, but the fact that
Speaker 3: he that was pinned on him with this other one,
Speaker 3: it's a lot like the one you just talked about, and.
Speaker 4: It didn't match any of the victims.
Speaker 3: Well, it's just what you see throughout his story, inconsistencies, oles,
Speaker 3: weird people showing up in multiple places throughout, like an
Speaker 3: anthropologist identifying bodies. Nobody knows that's.
Speaker 4: What anthropologists do, right, And so it's not like.
Speaker 6: They were digging up lost societies, right, Like, why was
Speaker 6: this guy identify helping identify bodies?
Speaker 4: It doesn't make sense. And there was an interview. I
Speaker 4: don't know if you did you watch the Ted Bundy tapes.
Speaker 3: I didn't.
Speaker 4: I mean I probably.
Speaker 6: Already that I may have tried them out, but a
Speaker 6: lot of that Netflix stuff I just got fed up with.
Speaker 3: It just was so.
Speaker 6: Uh, mainstream there not even that it was just redundant.
Speaker 6: You could have had like ten episodes b.
Speaker 4: One like they draw it out.
Speaker 6: Yeah, and it's just like a lot of stuff already knew.
Speaker 6: But anyway you were gonna Well, there was.
Speaker 4: An interview that was in the tapes where they asked him,
Speaker 4: have you ever done anything to hurt anybody? And the
Speaker 4: way that he answers the question is like, well, it's
Speaker 4: not me kind of, but I mean he says like, well,
Speaker 4: I've never directly done anything to hurt anybody, is how
Speaker 4: he said it. That's how he said it. Ever, I've
Speaker 4: never directly done anything.
Speaker 3: So he's saying he's a patsy. Yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 6: He also supposedly wanted to confess to a lot of
Speaker 6: it and helped find other bodies.
Speaker 3: Even though he never did.
Speaker 6: Yeah, it was like we said earlier, he was, yeah,
Speaker 6: putting off that old fucking date with death.
Speaker 4: M Well, these times that we're talking about were recorded
Speaker 4: in police logs, so it was well known to the
Speaker 4: members of the Ted squad that it wouldn't have even
Speaker 4: been fucking possible for Bundy to essentially be in two
Speaker 4: places at once. But even still, they pretended as though
Speaker 4: both crimes were the work of the elusive Ted, even
Speaker 4: after a drama teacher at the second crime scene positively
Speaker 4: identified a drug dealer who was also the initial suspect
Speaker 4: in another alleged Bundy victim, Deborah Kent case. So Deborah
Speaker 4: Kent was the one that they found with their hair
Speaker 4: freshly shampooed. They identified this same drug dealer with Deborah Kint,
Speaker 4: as they did with the person who abducted the girl
Speaker 4: at the school, but they're still blamed on Ted, even
Speaker 4: though it's physically impossible for that who have even happened.
Speaker 4: So I don't know what you think about that, but
Speaker 4: we're gonna get into even more of this type of
Speaker 4: information in the fourth and final episode, and hopefully we've
Speaker 4: convinced everyone that these serial killers do have blood ties.
Speaker 4: Woo is there anything you think I left out or Nope?
Speaker 4: Any closing words? Good job, thanks honey. Well, we will
Speaker 4: see you back next week for like said, the fourth
Speaker 4: and final episode in blood Ties. But until then, there
Speaker 4: is one very important vital piece of information I need
Speaker 4: you to learn just as soon as humanly possible.
Speaker 1: Life.
Speaker 9: Well, yes, I should just ask how are you doing
Speaker 9: out here?
Speaker 5: So short question deserving a long answer. I'm doing well.
Speaker 5: I feel good.
Speaker 2: Yeah, working hard in my case, you need a lot
Speaker 2: more sun and a lot more fresh air.
Speaker 5: But other than that, I'm doing okay.
Speaker 9: Do you get fresh air?
Speaker 2: Sam, do you get out well?
Speaker 5: I get to go to the library.
Speaker 2: It's a fifty yard walk from here, across this, across
Speaker 2: the parking.
Speaker 5: Lot to the library. That's my fresh air.
Speaker 9: Ted, when you left salt Let, when you were extra douted,
Speaker 9: you wish you to stay in and saying you feel
Speaker 9: it everything will turn on or right that you are
Speaker 9: in this.
Speaker 2: Do you still feel that?
Speaker 5: Mm mm yeah, yeah, more than ever.
Speaker 4: Uh.
Speaker 9: There's always one thing that amazed me. As you know,
Speaker 9: I covered your trial and I was there every day
Speaker 9: when you uh, when the judge fan you guilty mm
Speaker 9: of uh second degree kidnapping, you never showed any emotion.
Speaker 9: Do you know for somebody who believes he is so innocent,
Speaker 9: why was there no emotion?
Speaker 2: My attorney, John I co John O'Connell is so a
Speaker 2: like and I've always mused over just how I should
Speaker 2: behave what's the right way for Ted money to behave
Speaker 2: and make sure that people get the right impression.
Speaker 5: And I just behaved the way I feel it is right. Okay,
Speaker 5: let me take.
Speaker 2: The day of March first first, nineteen seventy six, the
Speaker 2: day that the judge rendered this verdict in my case.
Speaker 5: First, I didn't show any emotion because.
Speaker 2: You know what am I supposed to do? Am I
Speaker 2: gonna jump up on the table. Am I gonna scream?
Speaker 5: That's what I felt like doing. I heard my mother cry. Uh.
Speaker 5: It's an emotional time. I don't even like to think
Speaker 5: of that day.
Speaker 2: But I wasn't gonna give these people who went out
Speaker 2: and built a case around the non existent eyewitness other
Speaker 2: than any uh an eyewitness snification was built.
Speaker 5: By the police.
Speaker 2: I wasn't gonna give them satisfactions seeing me break down
Speaker 2: and uh sure, I'm man, I'm showing emotion right now
Speaker 2: because inside that man. Uh, But I've kept it together
Speaker 2: because there's no point in destroying myself. I had got
Speaker 2: to keep myself together. I have got to stay calm.
Speaker 2: I've got to keep my presence of mind because as
Speaker 2: long as.
Speaker 5: I do that, I'm gonna beat these people. And that's
Speaker 5: the way I feel.
Speaker 1: Uh.
Speaker 2: I showed no emotion.
Speaker 5: I felt emotion, Believe me. Now the irony comes here.
Speaker 2: When Carol Deroche, the kidnapping victim from Utah, came to
Speaker 2: testify in this preliminary hearing here, I was beside myself
Speaker 2: with rage. Uh, she is turning into a professional witnesses.
Speaker 2: As far as I'm concerned, she has a prosecution witness.
Speaker 5: And when I heard her go through that routine.
Speaker 2: That I had heard three times before, I had restrained
Speaker 2: myself every time.
Speaker 5: I couldn't do it this time. And I told my atturney.
Speaker 2: I says, I'm gonna get up, and I cut up,
Speaker 2: and I pointed to Judge and I pointed at her
Speaker 2: and I said, she's lying. She's lied three times before
Speaker 2: and she's lying now. And I'd helped it. And he
Speaker 2: pulled me down and he says, listening.
Speaker 5: He says, you can't do that, and I says, okay,
Speaker 5: But I had to do it for once. For once,
Speaker 5: they had to do it.
Speaker 2: And do you know something, people say Ted Bundy didn't
Speaker 2: show any emotion. There must be something in that. I
Speaker 2: showed emotion, you know what people said. See, you really
Speaker 2: can't get violent and angry. Uh, there's no wi right
Speaker 2: way for me to act. I act and I don't
Speaker 2: care what people think about how I'd act. I act
Speaker 2: according to the way I think is right and best
Speaker 2: for me at the time. And I'm not gonna try
Speaker 2: to please people or impress people, because quite frankly, the
Speaker 2: amount of bias and and prejudice surrounds me as a
Speaker 2: as a media image, I can't begin to tear down.
Speaker 5: Not with this interview were underd interviews t.
Speaker 2: Do you believe.
Speaker 9: A person from the media m other people here?
Speaker 5: Do you believe that we created you?
Speaker 9: That that that it's that it's our fault that we
Speaker 9: created this image of of the mass murder?
Speaker 2: Is that?
Speaker 9: Is that what you're saying to us?
Speaker 2: Well, I think in the course of doing your job,
Speaker 2: you did not at a not in a malign way,
Speaker 2: not not not in a a personal vendetta against me.
Speaker 2: But in the course of of of publishing the uh
Speaker 2: material UH and broadcasts and material coming out of the
Speaker 2: Saltly County Sheriff's Office or the Salty County Prosecutor's office,
Speaker 2: you began to plant the seed in people's minds. Now,
Speaker 2: that may be your constitutional right and duty as well
Speaker 2: as you know your livelihood, uh, but I think in
Speaker 2: the process you did create a media image of me Uh,
Speaker 2: that's far beyond you know, the reality of me.
Speaker 5: Does John Connell called the Bundy Monster.
Speaker 2: That's what he called it, Leota, So I suggested that
Speaker 2: to John we oughta get Mattel to make little dogs
Speaker 2: that walk, and say I knew the Bundy Monster.
Speaker 5: Tell me I should this. You totally believe you're innocent.
Speaker 5: I'm not questioning that.
Speaker 9: My question to you is how did it come to
Speaker 9: be the Ted Bundy MM could be involved in some
Speaker 9: of these things and has now been charged, conviction, convicted,
Speaker 9: wants is now facing first screen murder charges and as
Speaker 9: you know, I was being suspected in in other murders.
Speaker 5: How did Ted Bundy come out? Where did it come from?
Speaker 2: That's a very long story, and I could really can't
Speaker 2: be If I knew the answers to that question, I
Speaker 2: wouldn't be.
Speaker 5: Sitting here right now. I'd be back in Salt Lake
Speaker 5: with a new trial. And one day I'll have those
Speaker 5: new Uh. One day I'll have those answers, and one
Speaker 5: day I'll have a new trial.
Speaker 2: Okay, But I don't know why, Okay, I I can't
Speaker 2: begin to understand why. I know that there's a lot
Speaker 2: of uh, police ego on the line.
Speaker 5: I know that a lot of men.
Speaker 2: In the Detective's division in sol the County Sheriff's office,
Speaker 2: jobs are on the line.
Speaker 5: I know that it's it's a long time ago.
Speaker 2: It ceased to be an issue as whether or not
Speaker 2: I was innocent or guilty. The issue is now is
Speaker 2: can we pentant on it? Can we can we follow
Speaker 2: through and this A and maintain a.
Speaker 5: Rep reputation as law enforcement officers.
Speaker 2: And I'll tell you, as long as they attempt to
Speaker 2: keep their heads in the stand about me, there's gonna
Speaker 2: be people turning up in canyons, and they're gonna be
Speaker 2: people being shot in Salt Lake City because the police
Speaker 2: there aren't willing to accept what I think they know,
Speaker 2: and they know that I didn't do these things.
Speaker 7: If you'll have to admit there's a there's a a
Speaker 7: hell of a lot of circumstantial evidence, at least circumstantial
Speaker 7: it seems to somebody who has read simply read the
Speaker 7: newspapers and articles.
Speaker 5: No, I won't admit that. No, there's uh, I I
Speaker 5: don't call it ser.
Speaker 2: It's not circumstantial as far as I'm concerned, and I
Speaker 2: I don't really know exactly what you're referring to and
Speaker 2: I don't really wanna discuss it, but uh it, I
Speaker 2: don't care what they's anybody says or or the uh
Speaker 2: the suspicions anyone harbors on the basis of that misinformation.
Speaker 2: And indeed that's what I call it, circumstantial uh information
Speaker 2: perhaps been misinformation.
Speaker 5: As far as I'm concerned.
Speaker 2: UH A lot of people trying to pin a lot
Speaker 2: of stuff on somebody because UH, you know it's convenient.
Speaker 2: But uh do you think you're gonna set up Well,
Speaker 2: I don't think there's any broad scheme, UH, but I
Speaker 2: think one begins to I would have to infer that, uh,
Speaker 2: based on some of the police activity I think following
Speaker 2: November of seventy five, you have to say that there
Speaker 2: is a general uh.
Speaker 5: Design amongst police.
Speaker 2: Officers and several jurisdictions to to do whatever they could.
Speaker 2: And I think a statement recently made by UH a
Speaker 2: sheriff in Utah, in Utah County, I believe he said
Speaker 2: they walked out in some of those meetings because it
Speaker 2: was just clear that they were just gonn They had
Speaker 2: one thing on their mind and they were gonna do
Speaker 2: anything to prove it.
Speaker 5: And I think this trial would show exactly what they've done. Uh.
Speaker 2: I'm not gonna sit here and say people have purjured themselves,
Speaker 2: but I think that will come out.
Speaker 5: Are you angry?
Speaker 7: Sure?
Speaker 5: I get angry. Uh, you're very very un angry and indignant.
Speaker 2: I don't like being locked up for something I didn't do,
Speaker 2: and I don't like my liberty taken away.
Speaker 5: And I don't like being treated like an animal. And
Speaker 5: I don't like like people walking around and ugly me
Speaker 5: like I'm some sort of waydough because I'm not. Uh.
Speaker 2: You know, I'm perfectly happy with the person I am
Speaker 2: and I've always been.
Speaker 5: There's nothing not a I mean.
Speaker 2: I uh yeah, I don't pay my telephone bills on time,
Speaker 2: and I don't write my mother uh as many letters
Speaker 2: as I should. There are all kinds of things I
Speaker 2: can improve about myself, but weird don't know this.
Speaker 4: Uh.
Speaker 5: I feel good about myself. I'm happy with myself.
Speaker 1: It don't change you.
Speaker 7: Stayed tech BONDI twenty four hours a day.
Speaker 2: Well, gee, that name sounds funny. You know you hear
Speaker 2: ted Bundy in so many different contexts.
Speaker 5: I stay me.
Speaker 7: Okay, what happens if you're in prison five years and
Speaker 7: nothing like what has happened in the past happens again.
Speaker 5: Who do you mean, I mean any any of the
Speaker 5: things that you have been accused.
Speaker 7: Of any one by any window, by rumor, by the
Speaker 7: police departments or whatever. What if there are no killings
Speaker 7: or no kidnappings.
Speaker 5: It's already happened, hasn't it. I've heard some reports.
Speaker 2: I you know, I remember the the incidents between between
Speaker 2: five and eight which are similar to the ones which
Speaker 2: the the police have had the nerve to try to
Speaker 2: associate with me. It's gonna continue to happen in Salt
Speaker 2: Lake in Utah until those police start to wise up
Speaker 2: and stopt st stop counting their chickens before they had.
Speaker 2: I think it's a terribly dangerous mentality to try to
Speaker 2: pin something on somebody who who they might. They believe
Speaker 2: there's a possibility it couldn't have done it. And as
Speaker 2: long as they believe that, they're not going to find
Speaker 2: the right man, and the man who who kidnapped caroled
Speaker 2: Ranch is going to continue to be free, and not
Speaker 2: only her, but every other young woman in the Salt
Speaker 2: Lake Valley is going to is going to be threatened
Speaker 2: by that person or person's and it's happening today and
Speaker 2: it's going to happen in the future. What do you
Speaker 2: think about in your mind?
Speaker 7: What do you conjure up about the man that they're
Speaker 7: after or the real man who did.
Speaker 5: These things man or man person's persons.
Speaker 2: I don't know, I really have. I can't even begin
Speaker 2: to understand the mentality.
Speaker 7: You are not guilty.
Speaker 5: I'm not guilty.
Speaker 2: Does that include the time I stole a comic book
Speaker 2: when I was five years old? I am not guilty
Speaker 2: of the terriages which have been filed against me and
Speaker 2: the allegations and the allegations of the room or I
Speaker 2: don't know all of what you're speaking about, like a
Speaker 2: it's too broad and I can't get into it in
Speaker 2: any detail. Uh, but I'm satisfied with with my blanket statement.
Speaker 5: That I'm innocent.
Speaker 2: Uh.
Speaker 5: No man is truly innocent.
Speaker 2: Uh.
Speaker 5: I mean we all just transgressed in somewhere in our lives.
Speaker 2: And as I say, I, I've been uh impolite, and
Speaker 2: there are things I regret having done in my life.
Speaker 5: But then nothing like the the things I think that
Speaker 5: you're referring to. You ever physically harmed.
Speaker 2: Anyone, ever physically harmed anyone, No no, you know, uh.
Speaker 5: Again, not in the context. I think that you're you're speaking.
Speaker 3: Of being as strange.
Speaker 8: When you're a strange, faces look ugly.
Speaker 1: When you're a.
Speaker 8: Lone woman seeing with kid. When you're unworded, streets are
Speaker 8: run even when you're down. When you're a strange, faces
Speaker 8: got out of the rain. When you're strange, no one
Speaker 8: remembers the name when you're strange. When you're strange, When
Speaker 8: you're strain, eat well a strain. When you're a stranger,
Speaker 8: faces not done. Let when you're alone when the same week,
Speaker 8: when you're unwonted, streets are.
Speaker 4: Round eva when you're down.
Speaker 3: Hello, and welcome Cosmic Peach podcast, where we go cosmic
Speaker 3: all over your feet.
Speaker 4: He was also asked where Rob Peaste was, to which
Speaker 4: that's peaced. I fucking know it's peaced because I watched
Speaker 4: the documentary.
Speaker 3: Also asked.
Speaker 4: Who's that guy one of his victims, but they.
Speaker 3: Didn't have a body yet.
Speaker 9: No.
Speaker 4: Yeah, oh, I thought you were saying I said the
Speaker 4: last name.
Speaker 3: No, I just name came out of nowhere.
Speaker 8: So let me.
Speaker 4: Rephrase it for the listener.
Speaker 3: What do you want to call it?
Speaker 4: Like when he got baptized?
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a word I'm trying to find. It's an
Speaker 3: easy word. Told h, I'm tired.
Speaker 4: But well, not coincidence.
Speaker 3: It's not a coincidence.
Speaker 4: It's like, oh my god, when she's been tapping at
Speaker 4: the same time synchronous.
Speaker 3: Yes, parting or is that dexter it's texter.
Speaker 4: I thought it was you.
Speaker 3: That's definitely a chicken furt.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it smells like.
Speaker 3: Mother chape. This breaths marijuana. Instance, she just sticks some
Speaker 3: popery and dexter fearble.
Speaker 4: Oh my god, that's so disgusting to bring the stink
Speaker 4: out so happy with.
Speaker 3: Text to your disgusting fuck, Can at least leave the
Speaker 3: room actually fucking burden?
Speaker 4: Okay, I do think I'll want it puffed, though, let
Speaker 4: me take some pressure. I'm scared because that's the thickest
Speaker 4: part of it.
Speaker 3: This actually, the resonating stuff gets you way harder because
Speaker 3: it's a concentrated brand. Are you okay, baby, enough to
Speaker 3: bob your eyes? Oh? Anyway, I'm not saying that's when
Speaker 3: I shut.
Speaker 4: The help me down.
Speaker 3: M cool mm hmm, se mm hmm.
Speaker 4: Zero last time, Hello, and welcome back to the show.