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Speaker 5: You are now listening to True Murder The most shocking
Speaker 5: killers in true crime history and the authors that have
Speaker 5: written about them Gasey Bundy, Dahmer, The Night Stalker DTK.
Speaker 5: Every week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking
Speaker 5: and infamy killers in true crime history. True Murder with
Speaker 5: your host journalist and author Dan Zufanski. Good evening in
Speaker 5: Mummy Dead and Dearest, Provocative documentarian Aaron Lee Carr HBO's
Speaker 5: Thought Crimes. The Case of the cannibal cop explores a
Speaker 5: grizzly tale where nothing is quite what it seems. Following
Speaker 5: Dete's brutal murder, a mysterious status end up on her
Speaker 5: Facebook page announcing the bitch is Dead, which investigators used
Speaker 5: to track her daughter, Gypsy, to a house in Wisconsin.
Speaker 5: Gypsy had been ill and confined to a wheelchair for nearly.
Speaker 6: Her entire life was a subject of much concern in
Speaker 6: their community, but once she was brought into the courthouse,
Speaker 6: everybody was shocked to discover that she could walk after all.
Speaker 6: The inspiring tale of a mother and her sick daughter
Speaker 6: turned into something much darker than anybody anticipated. With Gipsy
Speaker 6: a victim of one of psychology's most controversial conditions, Munchausen
Speaker 6: by proxy. Car digs deeper into this rabbit hole of
Speaker 6: deception with unprecedented access and weaves a tale that proves
Speaker 6: that truth really is stranger than fiction. The subject tonight
Speaker 6: is the documentary documentary Mummy, Dead and Dearest, with my
Speaker 6: special guest, Aaron Lee Carr, director and writer Aaron Lee Carr.
Speaker 6: Welcome to the program, and thank you very much for
Speaker 6: this interview.
Speaker 4: Aaron Lee Carr, wonderful, so happy to be talking with you.
Speaker 6: Thank you very much, very very congratulations of just a
Speaker 6: start on a very very powerful and very provocative and
Speaker 6: very very unique and interesting documentary. Now let's get to
Speaker 6: how this came about. You talk about your co producer,
Speaker 6: one of your co producers, Alison Burne. So tell us
Speaker 6: how and when this came to be that you were
Speaker 6: interested in this story. How you came to be interested
Speaker 6: in this story. Tell us about that.
Speaker 7: Yeah, of course.
Speaker 4: So I made my first film for HBO called Thought Cremes,
Speaker 4: and it was, you know, it was this case about
Speaker 4: this guy that was was convicted of conspiring to kidnap, rape,
Speaker 4: torturing women. He did it online, and so it was
Speaker 4: this really weird, kind of unique intersection between crime and
Speaker 4: the internet. And following the release of that film, you know,
Speaker 4: I wanted to stay in that space. I thought, you know,
Speaker 4: this is what's interesting to me and I think that
Speaker 4: I think there's a.
Speaker 7: Lot more to sort of uncover and investigate. And so
Speaker 7: I basically was working with Alison, as you.
Speaker 4: Said, and she was researching stories where people confessed online
Speaker 4: and Gypsy Rose blanchert this case came up.
Speaker 7: But when she started telling me about it. I thought
Speaker 7: it was sort of a joke.
Speaker 4: It didn't make sense. I had never heard of anything
Speaker 4: like it, And you know, we just kind of sat
Speaker 4: and talked about it for an hour, and we saw
Speaker 4: it on a thought catalog piece, an article written by
Speaker 4: a writer named Megan Pack and we started the very
Speaker 4: very slow, painful but ultimately successful process of trying to
Speaker 4: get people to speak with us.
Speaker 6: Now, when Alison spoke to you, and you're and your
Speaker 6: producer Andrew Rossi as well, when you discussed this, what
Speaker 6: did you know? What was the outline of the story?
Speaker 6: You said you learned much more, obviously, and obviously that's
Speaker 6: what this film is about. So tell us what you knew.
Speaker 6: What was that initial outline that said this is fascinating,
Speaker 6: I've got to do this.
Speaker 7: That's a good question.
Speaker 4: I think that it just was the pure The question
Speaker 4: that loomed for me was how could you, as a
Speaker 4: human being, day in a wheelchair for fourteen years?
Speaker 7: Like, what does that even mean?
Speaker 4: If you're psychologically sort of stuck in a chair, you know, confined,
Speaker 4: like you don't even have access to your you know,
Speaker 4: access to your body. So I just I just didn't
Speaker 4: know really what to make of it, and I didn't
Speaker 4: know who Gypsy was.
Speaker 7: She was sort of this cipher. Nobody knew how she
Speaker 7: sort of felt about it.
Speaker 4: And you know, because I was able to work with HBO,
Speaker 4: I had the confidence to reach out directly to her.
Speaker 6: Now, talk about that you corresponded with her in prison,
Speaker 6: but she didn't immediately was not able to work with you.
Speaker 6: So tell us about this process, how long this took,
Speaker 6: and what was that process to be able to get
Speaker 6: access to her and be able to interview her.
Speaker 7: So basically we started.
Speaker 4: I started out and I wrote her a letter in prison,
Speaker 4: and I sort of introduced myself and talked about the
Speaker 4: things that I'm interested in her case. And I remember
Speaker 4: I was at my apartment in Brooklyn and I got
Speaker 4: a letter.
Speaker 7: Back, and I was so excited.
Speaker 4: And I have a like a sort of a tradition
Speaker 4: of like how I open.
Speaker 7: These letters, these access letters. I'm a little bit superstitious.
Speaker 4: And I opened it, and you know, in this this
Speaker 4: very sort of unique handwriting, she wrote to me and
Speaker 4: she said, hello, miss miss Aaron, thank you so much
Speaker 4: for your interest. I really want to talk to you.
Speaker 4: And I'm paraphrasing, by the way, and and she just said,
Speaker 4: you know, I'm going to talk to Mike Stanfield and see,
Speaker 4: you know how best to do this. And I was
Speaker 4: so excited. I was like, could it be this easy?
Speaker 4: I mean, like, you know that that was so quick.
Speaker 4: And then, of course, a couple of days later I
Speaker 4: received another letter from that in that similar handwriting, and
Speaker 4: she said, you know, I spoke with my lawyer, Mike Stanfield,
Speaker 4: and now is not the right time to talk. You know,
Speaker 4: at the time, she was facing a potential death penalty.
Speaker 4: It was a death penalty case that they were deciding.
Speaker 4: And you know I understood, you know, filmmaking and making television,
Speaker 4: even you know, if it's for HBO, can't get in
Speaker 4: the way of a legal case. And so I had
Speaker 4: to be I had to be patient and figure out
Speaker 4: other ways to tell the story while waiting to see
Speaker 4: if I.
Speaker 7: Could get access to her.
Speaker 6: Now, let's go back for our audience that knows nothing
Speaker 6: about this story, and you're introducing this story. It's going
Speaker 6: to be debuting May fifteenth on HBO on Monday, on Monday,
Speaker 6: so very very soon. Now take us back to Springfield,
Speaker 6: Missouri and the crime itself. What was initially reported Before
Speaker 6: we talk about the relationship that people saw the mother
Speaker 6: and daughter and what they thought of that relationship, and
Speaker 6: what that those two people, the mother and daughter presented
Speaker 6: as the sick child and the reasons for that. So
Speaker 6: take us back to Springfield, Missouri and the crime scene
Speaker 6: itself before we go backwards for any kind of reasoning
Speaker 6: for some of this.
Speaker 7: Of course.
Speaker 4: So the crime scene was a very graphic one. It
Speaker 4: was so basically they had this pink habitat for humanity,
Speaker 4: a habitat for humanity house, and it was small, but queint.
Speaker 7: There were five wheelchairs.
Speaker 4: In the house. There was you know, their Gypsy had
Speaker 4: her own room, Dedie had her own room, but they
Speaker 4: often slept in the same bed and that just you know,
Speaker 4: and they're their crime scenes that opened this film.
Speaker 7: It's it's kind of hard for me to you know,
Speaker 7: even think about.
Speaker 4: But in the dead of night, a co conspirator of
Speaker 4: Gypsy snuck in, was handed a large, very large knife,
Speaker 4: and he went into Beattie's room and stabbed her back,
Speaker 4: slashed her neck.
Speaker 7: She woke up and said.
Speaker 4: Gypsy's name, and you know she she was, you know, murdered.
Speaker 7: In cold blood.
Speaker 4: They piled the blankets on top of her Nicholas had
Speaker 4: ordered Gypsy to be in the bathroom.
Speaker 7: Naked, and when the deed.
Speaker 4: Was done, he said, come out here. And it was
Speaker 4: her job to, you know, to scrub the bathroom for
Speaker 4: evidence because there were drops of blood.
Speaker 6: Wow, now, how was it that Let's let's go backwards here,
Speaker 6: because we're going to talk about a relationship and how
Speaker 6: this ever came to be, So we might as well
Speaker 6: go backwards and talk about you as you do. You
Speaker 6: have an interview with a friend who a neighbor who
Speaker 6: believes she's a good friend of Gypsy Rose, and so
Speaker 6: she understands, or at least at that time, believed that
Speaker 6: she had certain ailments. What are some of the ailments
Speaker 6: that people around her, people at school, people in the
Speaker 6: community believe that Gypsy has.
Speaker 7: So Gypsy and.
Speaker 4: Dda were well known in the community for being this
Speaker 4: this lovely, polite, super youthful mother daughter duo. You know,
Speaker 4: they were often wearing plush slippers or sweatpants. Gypsy always
Speaker 4: had like a knitted cap on. She was she was
Speaker 4: sort of balding, but well her mother had like actually
Speaker 4: shaved her head. And you know, you mentioned Aliyah. So
Speaker 4: this was a neighbor somebody that lived in the same
Speaker 4: community that Dedie and Gypsy lived in, and you know,
Speaker 4: she just said they were the kind of the best
Speaker 4: people around. And you know, Aliyah, being a good person,
Speaker 4: would offer to help Dedy and Gypsy with things. And
Speaker 4: you know, it always seemed weird to her that Gypsy
Speaker 4: and her never had alone time. Her mom was always
Speaker 4: always next to her, and you know, I think that,
Speaker 4: you know, it just it was this very strange thing,
Speaker 4: but Aliyah didn't really think about it because she was
Speaker 4: just helping this young handicapped girl who was also mentally challenged.
Speaker 7: Around the community.
Speaker 4: It was thought that Gypsy had muscular dystrophe. She was
Speaker 4: a keemia survivor. She was mentally incapacitated a case, she
Speaker 4: was slow, She was taken out of school when she
Speaker 4: was in the second grade.
Speaker 7: She had epilepsy.
Speaker 4: Her she would take a drug called tegritol and her
Speaker 4: heith would fall out. She wore these giant glasses because
Speaker 4: she or her vision was terrible. She had hearing problems,
Speaker 4: and oh yeah, she had a feeding tube put in
Speaker 4: her body because she was underweight. You know, it was
Speaker 4: it is remarkable how many illnesses or ailments, as you say,
Speaker 4: that Deedy sort of placed upon Gypsy.
Speaker 6: Now in this documentary, you truly do go the extra
Speaker 6: yard and investigate and have access to all these players
Speaker 6: in this incredible story. So where is the father of
Speaker 6: Gypsy Rose? And how is it that he doesn't see
Speaker 6: any of this?
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean that's what a lot of people have
Speaker 4: sort of wondered. So like, you know, this is his child,
Speaker 4: how did he not know that she could walk? And
Speaker 4: you know, would had to go back to the beginning,
Speaker 4: which was, you know, they lived in a small rural
Speaker 4: part of Louisiana.
Speaker 7: Rod left d D before Gypsy was born.
Speaker 4: Uh, Dede immediately implied that Gypsy was a sick baby,
Speaker 4: and you know, it just it just sort of escalated
Speaker 4: from there, and you know, they they got divorced. There
Speaker 4: was you know sort of like child support and custody
Speaker 4: issues and d D harassed you know, Rod in the
Speaker 4: court system. And so after Hurricane Katrina, uh, you know,
Speaker 4: Gypsy and d D you know, left Louisiana and moved
Speaker 4: to Missouri and they were given this this this really
Speaker 4: this habitat for Humanity House and Dee Dee realized this
Speaker 4: was like the perfect this was the perfect ruse, like
Speaker 4: she could make over her life.
Speaker 6: Now with this you talk about this ruse, what did
Speaker 6: this include in terms of perks for d D What
Speaker 6: was the motivation in terms of at least at least superficially,
Speaker 6: what did it look like? What kind of perks did
Speaker 6: they get besides a home?
Speaker 7: Yeah, of course, so they they were given.
Speaker 4: You know, it ranged from as small as tickets to
Speaker 4: the movie theater to uh, you know, to trips flying
Speaker 4: to Disney World, private uh private, private flights to hospitals
Speaker 4: in Kansas City, thousands of dollars from celebrities that had
Speaker 4: met them at concerts, uh, you know, cash donations coming
Speaker 4: in from the internet fundraisers.
Speaker 7: I mean, it just you know this.
Speaker 4: I mean, it wasn't a giant amount of money. Like
Speaker 4: they weren't living off the hogs, you know what I mean.
Speaker 4: But you know, they got disability benefits from the government,
Speaker 4: they got donations. Uh, you know, DEDI did not have
Speaker 4: to work, they.
Speaker 7: Got child support. It's it's you know, they were living comfortably.
Speaker 6: Now, let's also talk about, as you do this Munchausen
Speaker 6: by proxy syndrome. Just briefly, not again not to give
Speaker 6: too much away, but explain for an audience that doesn't
Speaker 6: know what this is. What this is.
Speaker 4: So Munchausen by proxy is a psychological disorder where a
Speaker 4: caregiver or a parent stands illness in a child to
Speaker 4: garner attention or financial benefit. Sometimes it's Munchausen is just
Speaker 4: when you're feigning illnesses in yourself. Like you know, there's
Speaker 4: been a couple of, you know, really intense cases where
Speaker 4: people saying that they have cancer, they shave their heads,
Speaker 4: they take you know, they go to doctors for medication.
Speaker 7: You know, it is a mental illness.
Speaker 4: But I do believe that participants know what it, you know,
Speaker 4: like the difference between right and wrong. I mean, actually
Speaker 4: maybe I know this this is a live interview, but
Speaker 4: it is my consideration that I think Dede knew what
Speaker 4: she was.
Speaker 7: Doing was wrong.
Speaker 4: But that might not be all the you know, the
Speaker 4: case with everyone.
Speaker 6: Right now, let's get to how police are alerted in
Speaker 6: what manner are they alerted to d D's death. Tell
Speaker 6: us about the discovery. Well, we talked about the crime
Speaker 6: scene itself, but what alerts police specifically, and we mentioned
Speaker 6: it in the introduction about Facebook, So tell us about
Speaker 6: that Facebook post? What was said in there and what
Speaker 6: was the reaction and what did it all lead to?
Speaker 4: Yeah, of course there was a Facebook post that was
Speaker 4: that was posted on DDE and Gypsy's joint Facebook page.
Speaker 4: The first the first post that that bitch is dead,
Speaker 4: and the second post is and I fucking slashed that
Speaker 4: fat pig and raped her sweet innocent daughter. Her scream
Speaker 4: was so fucking loud lol, And people were like on
Speaker 4: the Facebook, they were like, what, like, you know, its
Speaker 4: just they had never heard any of these women ever
Speaker 4: talk like that. Gypsy was a child, Beatie would never
Speaker 4: never swore. Nobody ever heard her swear in her life.
Speaker 4: So people thought that Facebook was hacked, you know.
Speaker 7: It wasn't.
Speaker 4: It was Gypsy admitting, you know, she said she told
Speaker 4: me that she wanted people to find her mom's body quicker.
Speaker 4: I don't know that that does not seem I don't
Speaker 4: I don't know if that that sort of reasoning holds up.
Speaker 6: Doesn't sound like it to me. So with these posts continue,
Speaker 6: how I mean, obviously that's how all of these stories
Speaker 6: were hew. Police track everything cell phone analysis and posts,
Speaker 6: and so what did they discover?
Speaker 4: So they traced the IP address of the Facebook post
Speaker 4: back to a town called Big Ben Wisconsin, and Aliah
Speaker 4: was actually one of the first to tell authorities that
Speaker 4: she knew that Gypsy had a boyfriend. How she knew
Speaker 4: Gypsy had a boyfriend was that they talked on Facebook
Speaker 4: in a secret account that Gypsy had and Gypsy, in
Speaker 4: a very sort of girly fashion, was just like, you know,
Speaker 4: I have a boyfriend. His name is Nicholas.
Speaker 7: We want to get married.
Speaker 4: We both love Disney. And she said, you know, I
Speaker 4: think he was from Wisconsin, so it's you know, they
Speaker 4: said they thought potentially that that Nick had killed the
Speaker 4: mom and kidnapped Gypsy, right, so.
Speaker 6: Obviously they realize with some questioning. And you talk about
Speaker 6: because you have again the incredible access to have the
Speaker 6: interrogation interviews of this Nick go to John and it
Speaker 6: is fascinating. I gotta say it is when we I
Speaker 6: don't want to give too much away, but he does.
Speaker 4: Have it's close to air day, I said, careful, yeah,
Speaker 4: they're so close to the air day.
Speaker 6: And I hope people, well, no, I'm going to say,
Speaker 6: I'm just gonna want to give too much. I want
Speaker 6: to say just alert people to say that this is
Speaker 6: some of the most fascinating footage I've seen and you
Speaker 6: say he's confirmed artistic and has uh As Burgers. So
Speaker 6: we'll just yes again, we we can say that anyway,
Speaker 6: that it's a very interesting interview to say the least, totally.
Speaker 4: I felt the same way. I you know, when we
Speaker 4: got access to that, that was very lead in our
Speaker 4: edit process, and I just I watched it over and
Speaker 4: over again, you know, looking for clues about this man
Speaker 4: that had murdered his online girlfriends mother. You know, that
Speaker 4: is a very drastic action.
Speaker 7: Why would somebody do that?
Speaker 4: You know, what were the signs that led up to this?
Speaker 4: And you know, he had this very heightened prince charming
Speaker 4: gentleman thing where he thought it was his job to
Speaker 4: protect Gypsy and the only way that he could protect
Speaker 4: Gypsy was if the mom was gone. And it's just
Speaker 4: you know, it's it's he to me, in those interviews,
Speaker 4: in the police interrogation tapes, he seems severely mentally ill.
Speaker 4: He seems mentally ill in a way that Gypsy does
Speaker 4: not sort of look or sound or act like, you know,
Speaker 4: they feel like very different people to me.
Speaker 6: I agree. And the other thing is what we didn't
Speaker 6: talk about is and this is this is amazing to
Speaker 6: me too. How childlike this girl was made to be
Speaker 6: much younger. I don't know if we mentioned that she
Speaker 6: was meant to act much younger. She was told, as
Speaker 6: you about that she was retalkdar so, but she does.
Speaker 6: The most profound thing is how childlike she sounds. Almost baby.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean before I met her, I thought if
Speaker 4: I wondered if the voice was a put on.
Speaker 6: It's not.
Speaker 4: That's her real voice, her mother.
Speaker 7: So she when she when the murder happened.
Speaker 4: I believe she was twenty three, and she thought she
Speaker 4: was about sixteen or seventeen, So that's a huge different
Speaker 4: in age. You know, she does not look like she
Speaker 4: was in her early twenties.
Speaker 7: I mean, she could pass for thirteen.
Speaker 6: Sure, seemed like it. And what do you also have
Speaker 6: is this access to of course the texts and some
Speaker 6: of the video of these people. We won't say when,
Speaker 6: but incredible video footage of these people interacting this couple. Again,
Speaker 6: I can't even I don't even know how to describe
Speaker 6: it except bizarre, very bizarre, and but very immature to
Speaker 6: And that's the understatement of the week for sure. Now
Speaker 6: let's talk about you know, one thing that you do
Speaker 6: cover in the movie too, Is that that the mother
Speaker 6: herself is a master of manipulation? You do have you
Speaker 6: do really present that in this documentary, don't you?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 4: I mean I did. Is endlessly fascinating, you know, I don't.
Speaker 4: I don't think any of I don't. I think very
Speaker 4: few people could understand why someone would do that to
Speaker 4: their child, you know, bring a child to a doctor
Speaker 4: hundreds of times when you know there's nothing wrong with her.
Speaker 4: You know, I I looked for clues for the whole
Speaker 4: time I was making this movie about you know, what
Speaker 4: were what were the science that she would be, that
Speaker 4: she would lead to to becoming this person that could
Speaker 4: do that? Was their abuse?
Speaker 7: Was there?
Speaker 4: Was their psychopathy?
Speaker 7: Did you know?
Speaker 4: We were there sort of murderous traits that arose earlier
Speaker 4: in her life. And so you know, talking with her
Speaker 4: family members and talking with the community, who would go on.
Speaker 7: And off the record.
Speaker 4: You know, it's just it's hard because Dedie isn't here
Speaker 4: to tell us her side of the story, and to
Speaker 4: tell like basically, I mean, you know, she could be
Speaker 4: very potentially mentally ill, which I'm sure she is, but
Speaker 4: that's not really an excuse. I mean, all the big
Speaker 4: you know, the the you know, I listened to a
Speaker 4: lot of true crime podcasts, and just because you're mentally ill,
Speaker 4: it's not gold be a license to to act violent
Speaker 4: towards other people. And the majority of people that that
Speaker 4: survive with mental illness do not act out violently. So like,
Speaker 4: what made this case so much different and the fact
Speaker 4: that she was a woman and just doing all these
Speaker 4: things that she was implicated by her family and the
Speaker 4: death of her mother, and there's a you know, there's
Speaker 4: a couple other stories that you'll hear in the film.
Speaker 4: It's just this was not the first time that she
Speaker 4: had done something criminal, right, right.
Speaker 6: You also talk and this as well of just the
Speaker 6: nature of I guess it's not not the biggest issue,
Speaker 6: but just the nature of the internet. What is real
Speaker 6: and what isn't real, what's the plan and what isn't.
Speaker 6: What's somebody's word and what isn't. And when you're talking
Speaker 6: about young people, teens or people like this that have disabilities,
Speaker 6: we'll say, is that did I get that from this?
Speaker 3: That yeah?
Speaker 7: Thing?
Speaker 4: No, definitely, I mean you see that in my first film.
Speaker 7: There's this questioning about the.
Speaker 4: Role of social media plays and our thought processes, and
Speaker 4: like how we how we think and project our innermost
Speaker 4: desires with with Gypsy, one of my sort of points
Speaker 4: of fascination was that she was taken out of school,
Speaker 4: as I said, when she was in second grade, and
Speaker 4: she just would just watch Disney movies and she would
Speaker 4: go online, she would go on Facebook. These were her
Speaker 4: outlets for curiosity. And what does it mean when you
Speaker 4: grow up and you're the only things that you have
Speaker 4: to really learn from are these certain of archetypal Disney
Speaker 4: movies with these heightened Prince charming narratives, or Facebook where
Speaker 4: it's it's attention, it's about you know, about projecting her
Speaker 4: mental and physical disabilities for people to be supportive of it.
Speaker 4: Just it's just the Internet always plays a huge role
Speaker 4: in things that I'm interested in.
Speaker 6: It's interesting too that you actually have this incredible example
Speaker 6: of what would happen if she did run off? What
Speaker 6: if would happen if she told incredibly as much as
Speaker 6: she wasn't told the truth about her own illness as
Speaker 6: her own age, that she still was, like you say,
Speaker 6: never alone to be able to tell anybody anything. And
Speaker 6: when she did and so this is another profound example
Speaker 6: in this movie where you know we don't have to
Speaker 6: take anybody's word for it. That's a very profound moment.
Speaker 6: To reinforce that. I don't want to give anything away,
Speaker 6: but to reinforce this the helplessness that this woman felt
Speaker 6: that no one, no one understood at the time previous
Speaker 6: to this, if there ever was a surprise, I mean,
Speaker 6: I don't care what anyone says. This is the definition
Speaker 6: of surprise for this community and for people around them,
Speaker 6: wasn't it totally Yeah, Now you talk about this year
Speaker 6: or how this certain amount of length of time that
Speaker 6: it took, just tell us a little bit about how
Speaker 6: you managed to get access to Gypsy Rows for these interviews,
Speaker 6: and including that you did contact the defense attorney, which
Speaker 6: is unusual for a defense attorney to say anything except
Speaker 6: never ever talked to a journalist.
Speaker 4: Well, I mean, I think that's potentially a little bit
Speaker 4: of the old guard that, you know, media can't be helpful.
Speaker 4: You know, I think Mike Stanfield is a really rational,
Speaker 4: really smart person, and you know, he knew that the
Speaker 4: optics of the situation were favorable towards him. He was
Speaker 4: dealing with someone who was battling abuse her whole life,
Speaker 4: and you know, I come from I'm working on for HBO,
Speaker 4: and he knew it was real, and so in terms
Speaker 4: of the access, I could not talk to her until
Speaker 4: a plea deal was reached. And I don't really want
Speaker 4: to go and the specifics of that because that it'll
Speaker 4: it'll kind of break the tension of a seeing we
Speaker 4: have in the film. But you know, it just was
Speaker 4: a really slow, long process of checking with the family,
Speaker 4: not being pushy, but still being present. There were, of course,
Speaker 4: other outlets that wanted the to get the story, and
Speaker 4: you have to sort of balance this competitive side with
Speaker 4: really sort of thinking about like these this is the
Speaker 4: story about human beings, and like, you know, what purpose
Speaker 4: would this film serve in Gypsy's life? And so it
Speaker 4: was phone calls at first, it was letters with her.
Speaker 4: I flew down to.
Speaker 7: Go meet her in person.
Speaker 4: You know, we did a non camera interview where I
Speaker 4: learned more that would inform my actual interview.
Speaker 7: You know, in a perfect world, that's.
Speaker 4: What I would always do. I think it's really really
Speaker 4: good to to go and spend time with someone without cameras.
Speaker 7: So they feel comfortable with you and you can get
Speaker 7: a feel.
Speaker 4: For them, and like, you know, it might take some
Speaker 4: of the surprise out of it, the elements surprise, but
Speaker 4: I think that you know, it's important for interviews to
Speaker 4: feel conversational, for the subject to feel safe, and those
Speaker 4: are things that I really hope to bring to documentary filmmaking.
Speaker 4: You know, in a long tradition of amazing HBO documentary
Speaker 4: filmmakers that have done it.
Speaker 6: Yes, and you've got the confidence from HBO to do this,
Speaker 6: and yes, that's the unique element of it. You've just
Speaker 6: explained it in that you've prepared these people instead of
Speaker 6: surprised these people. And there is a lot of documentary
Speaker 6: I was just watching one not so long ago and
Speaker 6: the person was asking if the camera was rolling, so
Speaker 6: you know, you know there was no preparation if they're
Speaker 6: asking that question and you're using that footage. So an
Speaker 6: incredible idea to really make people comfortable because as you've
Speaker 6: probably known, and you do not want people so nervous
Speaker 6: in front of that camera, regardless of what reaction they
Speaker 6: might have. Now with this, you also debuted this at
Speaker 6: the south By Southwest Festival Film Festival in March. Tell
Speaker 6: us a little bit more about the HBO debut. This
Speaker 6: is HBO is finding this very important. They have a
Speaker 6: lot of confidence in you just tell us about the
Speaker 6: debut on May fifteenth, Sure, so.
Speaker 4: It is going to be at ten pm. We have
Speaker 4: done a great amount of press. You know, it's in
Speaker 4: People magazine today, the issue came out. We're going to
Speaker 4: be on Good Morning America. Like it's important, you know,
Speaker 4: I'm on this podcast. It's like very important to speak
Speaker 4: to the certain.
Speaker 7: Sects of people that are going to be interested in this.
Speaker 4: And you know, I think that a lot of networks
Speaker 4: would have maybe a difficult time telling the story making
Speaker 4: it feel non exploitative. HBO always gave us the room
Speaker 4: and ability to to sort of sus sus it out
Speaker 4: and see how best to to to do it. And
Speaker 4: I you know, a lot of the if when people
Speaker 4: call it sort of non exploitative, it feels balanced, it
Speaker 4: feels human. That's due in large part to our editor
Speaker 4: Andrew Kaufman, who cut the film, who's the writer of
Speaker 4: the film, And you know, he he really thought about it,
Speaker 4: and he didn't it didn't take him a super long
Speaker 4: time to cut it. He's a really fast editor. But
Speaker 4: you know, I think there was a lot of thoughtfulness
Speaker 4: put in about how to construct the story. And you know,
Speaker 4: when do you reveal that she doesn't need the wheelchair?
Speaker 4: You know, there's many different ways to make this.
Speaker 6: Movie, right certainly now with this uh, with this filmmaking,
Speaker 6: who else was involved? You talked about your editor Kaufman,
Speaker 6: But who else was involved with this that you found
Speaker 6: in the integral part of your team?
Speaker 7: Sure?
Speaker 4: So. The cinematographer, his name is Brian Starkanen. He would
Speaker 4: do two or three cameras and sound.
Speaker 7: We roll with the very small.
Speaker 4: Crew because it's it's cost productive, but also it just
Speaker 4: keeps our crews intimate. You know. He's amazing, and he
Speaker 4: works largely with my producer on the project.
Speaker 7: His name is Andrew Rossi. He's my producing partner.
Speaker 4: For the HBO films that we work on. We're working
Speaker 4: on a third one right now. And Andrew Rossi is
Speaker 4: a prolific, amazing documentary filmmaker and director. And he made
Speaker 4: page one a year in the New York Times Every tower,
Speaker 4: first Monday in May. Eat this New York le cirque.
Speaker 4: You know, he is just he does a lot of
Speaker 4: different sort of things. He's not a true crime guy,
Speaker 4: so this is sort of a little bit unusual that
Speaker 4: he produces these films. But I think it shows the
Speaker 4: length and you know, the variety that he can employ
Speaker 4: as a as a producer and as director and as
Speaker 4: a you know, a mentor of sorts.
Speaker 6: Just tell us about some of the exclusive interviews that
Speaker 6: may we may have not spoken about that are going
Speaker 6: to be that are featured in Mommy, Dead and Dearest.
Speaker 6: Some of the interrogation interviews and exclusions.
Speaker 4: Yeah, you're gonna be never seen before interrogation footage. I
Speaker 4: worked with and excuse me, I worked with Mike Stanfield
Speaker 4: to gain access to those materials.
Speaker 5: It is all.
Speaker 4: Because of him, the defense attorney, and it was also
Speaker 4: You're going to see archival VHS tapes of home movies
Speaker 4: between d D and Gypsy that have never been seen before.
Speaker 4: There's interviews with Dede's parents, Dede's nephew who's amazing. There's
Speaker 4: Christie and Rod Blanchert. There's a Leah, there's doctors that
Speaker 4: treated Gypsy. There is there's a journalists who wrote an
Speaker 4: incredible article in BuzzFeed that got four million hits due
Speaker 4: in large part to the strength of the writing but
Speaker 4: also the craziness of the story. And you are going
Speaker 4: to speak, you know, directly to Gypsy and hear her talk.
Speaker 6: Incredible. You talk about in this documentary too, that very
Speaker 6: incredibly that because of d D's constant bringing to the
Speaker 6: various doctors and complaining about certain elements, even gets to
Speaker 6: the point that she's operated on unnecessarily. At least you
Speaker 6: seem to hint at.
Speaker 4: That I, I, yes, I do believe that. I am sorry,
Speaker 4: I'm feeling a little saint. I basically that she was.
Speaker 7: She was, she was brought to the hospital.
Speaker 4: Gypsy was brought to the hospital over a hundred times
Speaker 4: while she was in Missouri, and you know, there are
Speaker 4: a series of operations that were done that you know,
Speaker 4: I believe we're not necessary. You know, it just it was.
Speaker 7: It was constant.
Speaker 4: This was an illness. It does not make rational sense.
Speaker 6: Now you talk about there there's many sides of this
Speaker 6: as well, in terms of you know, we just talked
Speaker 6: about there was only one doctor that noticed anything was amiss,
Speaker 6: and you have that person interviewed. But you also talk
Speaker 6: about that this seems to be where things coincide. Tell
Speaker 6: us what you think are the elements that coincide here
Speaker 6: that the viewer is going to see with this documentary
Speaker 6: just much more than this incredible story.
Speaker 4: Well, I think it's up for the viewer to tell that.
Speaker 4: I don't want to put my perspective on it.
Speaker 7: You know.
Speaker 4: I think that what I do as a filmmaker is
Speaker 4: create a package and a film where people can sort
Speaker 4: of they can experience it and react how they see fit.
Speaker 4: I don't.
Speaker 7: I don't have a.
Speaker 4: Preconceived notion how people how people will react to things.
Speaker 6: Well, what I meant was this, this is a you
Speaker 6: speak to abuse, and you speak to mental illness. But
Speaker 6: these are just a couple of issues that are involved
Speaker 6: in this film, right.
Speaker 7: Yeah, I mean it.
Speaker 4: It runs the gambit, you know, It's just it's mental illness,
Speaker 4: it's abuse, it's on social media, it's Disney, it's the
Speaker 4: burgeoning of sexuality, it's mattricide, it's you know why this happened,
Speaker 4: you know, to all of these in a very tight eighty.
Speaker 7: Two minute film.
Speaker 6: Now, for those that are listening to this as well,
Speaker 6: we talked about Nicholas Goldiejohn. This film doesn't have as
Speaker 6: much to do with him and his case as Gypsy
Speaker 6: Rose Blanchard's case. Is that correct, right?
Speaker 4: Right?
Speaker 6: Yeah?
Speaker 4: I think that you know, Nicholas was the co conspira
Speaker 4: that Gypsy, you know, was an online boyfriend that she
Speaker 4: had met on a Christian dating site, and you know,
Speaker 4: they talked for a year and a half before they met.
Speaker 4: And you know, I reached out to Nick. I sent
Speaker 4: him a letter much in the same way that I
Speaker 4: spoke with Gypsy, and it was returned back to me unopened.
Speaker 4: And you know, I emailed his lawyer several times.
Speaker 7: I did not receive a response back.
Speaker 4: And you know, like you said, potentially he might be
Speaker 4: part of the older Guard and just you know, this
Speaker 4: is not for me. We don't want to get involved.
Speaker 4: But I never received any.
Speaker 7: Sort of comment.
Speaker 4: I reached out to the family only once, I believe
Speaker 4: Nicholas's family and did not receive comments.
Speaker 6: Now, is there other than that? Is there any other
Speaker 6: reason why you would not in the future, or is
Speaker 6: there any plan to because this story is a is
Speaker 6: a documentary, not a series, not part of a series.
Speaker 6: Is there any interest whatsoever of Again, I don't want
Speaker 6: to give anything away, but is there any talk of
Speaker 6: following what happens with Godie John?
Speaker 4: No? Not for me. I mean, maybe there is another
Speaker 4: filmmaker out there, you know, I think there's incredible cases
Speaker 4: that are happening in real time. And you know, I
Speaker 4: think Nicholas's case, although interesting because he you know, was
Speaker 4: it was not a victim of sorts, but he did
Speaker 4: get it was a difficult.
Speaker 7: Ending for him, you know.
Speaker 4: I just I think Gypsy was, for me personally, was
Speaker 4: the far more interesting case. And so the access that
Speaker 4: I got, and that's the access that I worked on.
Speaker 4: So that's what I chose to follow.
Speaker 6: What was the most surprising thing. The surprising element of
Speaker 6: your interviews with Gypsy rose something that you had not
Speaker 6: anticipated whatsoever.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, every time we talk, something sort of
Speaker 4: interesting happens. You know, she is a keeper of secrets
Speaker 4: and a lot of her life has been kept a secret.
Speaker 4: And so one of the more interesting things for me
Speaker 4: that I wasn't able to actually include in the film
Speaker 4: was that Gypsy and Ddie shared the same bed every night.
Speaker 4: Gypsy had her own room in the house, had her
Speaker 4: own bed, but Dede liked for her to sleep close,
Speaker 4: and so they spent you know, most of their time
Speaker 4: together and they slept in the same bed.
Speaker 7: I found that completely and totally shocking.
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, you talk about something else which interesting and
Speaker 6: you supported it too, which is that you said that
Speaker 6: we talked about she was always around, even matter of
Speaker 6: his friend or someone else. But you show in the
Speaker 6: footage something a little more even disturbing and interesting. Once
Speaker 6: you know that fact that seems to be in all
Speaker 6: the video footage, say that one more time, we talked
Speaker 6: about her being constantly around Gypsy rows the mother, Right,
Speaker 6: but you also highlight something where it's a little even
Speaker 6: more disturbing in that you highlight even the closer contact we'll.
Speaker 7: Say, right, Yeah, I mean the.
Speaker 4: Footage showed that they were always together and that you know,
Speaker 4: Dede was had her eye on her, and you know,
Speaker 4: even when they are alone, even when they're alone, you know,
Speaker 4: Gypsy was saying that her you know, like that her
Speaker 4: legs weren't working. She would be shown like moving her
Speaker 4: legs around in a way that she that showed that
Speaker 4: she was immobile.
Speaker 6: Yeah. And the other thing what I was trying to
Speaker 6: get at was that she always seemed to have contact
Speaker 6: with the hand holding a hand, but holding a hand,
Speaker 6: oh yeah, broad manner as well.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean it's just I'm just I'm getting into
Speaker 4: two weird subjects because it's like I don't really want
Speaker 4: to give all of it away. You know, it's like
Speaker 4: maybe we should have planned it for after the screen,
Speaker 4: like the when it goes on HBO. But yeah, there
Speaker 4: was a there was a very sort of manipulative behavior
Speaker 4: that when they were in front of cameras, you know,
Speaker 4: Gypsy and DV would be holding hands and it was
Speaker 4: inferred that if something was said that Dane didn't like,
Speaker 4: she would grab her hand.
Speaker 6: Right now, you say that this how long? How many
Speaker 6: hours or how long did you interview Gypsy Rose over
Speaker 6: what period of time? How long was that period?
Speaker 7: It was two and a.
Speaker 4: Half hours and it was one day. Typically I would
Speaker 4: like to do that a lot more, but she's in prison,
Speaker 4: and you know, that was the time.
Speaker 7: That I was given right.
Speaker 6: And it's and and as you people will see in
Speaker 6: this movie, she is is more than a fascinating subject
Speaker 6: in that two and a half hours.
Speaker 7: Yeah, definitely, I mean we use a lot of it.
Speaker 7: You know, it's for me. For me, it felt so captivating.
Speaker 2: Mm hmm.
Speaker 6: Now, what was your trip like to Springfield, Missouri? Just
Speaker 6: tell us a little bit about your impression there, not
Speaker 6: of what exactly you did. Pardon me that you did there,
Speaker 6: because those are some more exclusive interviews with the relatives,
Speaker 6: but what was sort of the mood by the time
Speaker 6: you got there filmmakers poking around in their little town.
Speaker 4: So, yeah, Springfield, Missouri is a you know, is an
Speaker 4: unusual is an unusual place in that it's in the
Speaker 4: Ozark Mountain range, but it's still like kind of a
Speaker 4: big city. There's around two hundred thousand people, if I'm
Speaker 4: not mistaken. And this grewsome graphic murder had happened there
Speaker 4: that most people knew about, but outside of Springfield, people
Speaker 4: people didn't know didn't know about it. So it was
Speaker 4: just like a lot of members of the community felt
Speaker 4: some antagonism towards the reporters for coming in and painting
Speaker 4: their town like this. You know.
Speaker 7: My story it was that people were.
Speaker 4: Really friendly, except you know, not a lot of the
Speaker 4: neighbors wanted to go on the record, sure or any No,
Speaker 4: none of the neighbors wanted to go on the record
Speaker 4: beside Deliah.
Speaker 6: Right and the story nationally from there. The information that
Speaker 6: was had by Springfield, Missouri at that time, by the
Speaker 6: police and the media. Again, there was just a fraction
Speaker 6: of the information that you have on this documentary that
Speaker 6: was and that's part of this most fascinating part of
Speaker 6: the story is that what you thought you would find
Speaker 6: and then what you actually discovered by speaking to the principles,
Speaker 6: there was no other way to get this story. This
Speaker 6: is one of those very unique stories where there is
Speaker 6: only one There is really only one side here, and
Speaker 6: there's not too many people to speak to, Like you say,
Speaker 6: DD's gone and you have access to everyone. So what
Speaker 6: was the national story and how lacking was it in
Speaker 6: sort of details, and what was the optics of it
Speaker 6: at that time?
Speaker 4: You know, I think that people didn't know people didn't
Speaker 4: know about this story. It just didn't break into the
Speaker 4: national consciousness until the BuzzFeed piece came. And you know,
Speaker 4: I don't really have a good idea as to why.
Speaker 4: Maybe it's because it happened in the South. Maybe it's
Speaker 4: because it happened to people that weren't famous, you know,
Speaker 4: I I that's such a cool question, Like, I don't
Speaker 4: I don't know how people felt about it. I just
Speaker 4: knew it was There was a Gawker piece about it,
Speaker 4: there was, you know, a couple of sort of local
Speaker 4: papers that were covering it. But that's also what made
Speaker 4: it so exciting for me was that there wasn't these
Speaker 4: like giant, huge outlets later Nightline and twenty twenty I
Speaker 4: believe were interested in the story and in Doctor phil
Speaker 4: and and Doctor Oz, but like they have these incredibly talented,
Speaker 4: sort of ferocious producers that know about crime stories all over.
Speaker 7: But yeah, it was.
Speaker 4: It was sort of interesting, like how people in the
Speaker 4: town felt about it. But then when I would go
Speaker 4: back home and sort of you know, maybe talk to
Speaker 4: a couple of New Yorkers and tell them what I
Speaker 4: was working on, they'd be like, oh, I've never heard
Speaker 4: of that.
Speaker 6: Yeah, I think it's a fascinating story without some of
Speaker 6: the elements that seemed to be popular in the last
Speaker 6: few years, that seemed to for that reason, captivate an audience,
Speaker 6: the Casey Anthony and a couple of the cases, which
Speaker 6: are attractive to people for much different reasons than this.
Speaker 6: This is a in comparison, a very very sensitive story.
Speaker 6: And so I congratulate you for bringing a story that
Speaker 6: might not be so popular, like you say, with the
Speaker 6: national press, because it doesn't fit all those salacious highlights.
Speaker 6: I guess we'll.
Speaker 4: Say, yeah, thank you so much for saying that.
Speaker 7: That's really that's really thoughtful.
Speaker 6: Now, how long was this entire process for this film?
Speaker 6: And now that you have the HBO debut on May fifteenth,
Speaker 6: what's next after that for this film? Just more promotion
Speaker 6: for this film? Tell us about that.
Speaker 4: Yeah, so the film comes out on Monday, you know, not.
Speaker 7: Too much more promotion.
Speaker 5: We've done.
Speaker 4: We've done quite a bit of press. Now it's in
Speaker 4: the hands of audiences. People are going to interact with it,
Speaker 4: and you know, I just I think we're just going.
Speaker 7: To wait to hear how it's how it goes.
Speaker 4: I'm all in. I started working on it.
Speaker 7: August twenty fifteen, so it's about.
Speaker 4: A year and a half a little bit over that.
Speaker 4: And you know, it was it was a difficult process.
Speaker 4: We weren't sure if we were going to get the access.
Speaker 4: But you know, that's what makes doc filmmaking so fun.
Speaker 4: It's kind of on the edge of your seat.
Speaker 6: Right And what was south By Southwest like you debuted
Speaker 6: Cannibal Cop Thought Crimes in Tribeca in twenty fifteen, What
Speaker 6: was south By Southwest?
Speaker 4: Like south By Southwest was totally fantastic. I recommend anybody going.
Speaker 4: They had an incredible lineup of amazing films there this year.
Speaker 4: Janet Pearson, who runs the festival, is a total taste
Speaker 4: maker and she knows how to pick films that are
Speaker 4: going to really generate sort of discussion. And uh, you
Speaker 4: know when we got there, you know, when I excuse me,
Speaker 4: when I was making this film, I immediately thought of
Speaker 4: it as a South Buy film because it's it's it's
Speaker 4: a documentary, it's it's a crime story. But there is
Speaker 4: there is you know, there are elements that just make
Speaker 4: it a little bit sort of funny, and so it
Speaker 4: just felt like a really unique, really special mix for
Speaker 4: South Buy. And then when we got in it was
Speaker 4: just you know, it was kismet.
Speaker 7: It was amazing.
Speaker 4: And with Cannibal Cop Tribecca was also a good fit.
Speaker 4: This was a New York story. You know, we got
Speaker 4: a lot of coverage and papers and it just sort
Speaker 4: of made sense. So with these two films, I would
Speaker 4: say they've been pretty kind of tailor made for the
Speaker 4: festivals that they that they showed at, and we've had
Speaker 4: fantastic experiences working.
Speaker 7: With the festivals.
Speaker 6: Yes, and I think too that I think this audience
Speaker 6: can attest to this that there is a growing sophistication.
Speaker 6: And of course you see the resurgence in true crime
Speaker 6: on cable, HBO, Netflix, original series, Making of a Murderer, Vice,
Speaker 6: all kinds of things on This is in line with
Speaker 6: the tastes that the people have for true crime. They
Speaker 6: need something much better than I don't want to slag investigation, discovery,
Speaker 6: but there is a new level, a new standard, and
Speaker 6: I think and Mummy Dead and Dearest is right up there.
Speaker 6: Very I think people are going to be very, very
Speaker 6: very surprised and excited and interested in this Mummy Dead
Speaker 6: and Dearest. I want to thank you for all the
Speaker 6: work you've done on this and for coming on and
Speaker 6: talking about Mummy Dead and Dearest. So maybe just before
Speaker 6: we go, if you could just briefly describe what people
Speaker 6: will see May fifteenth on Mommy Dead and Dearest.
Speaker 4: Yeah, of course. So, Mommy Dead and Dearest is a
Speaker 4: true true story about a case that a stranger than fiction.
Speaker 4: It deals with a you know, as you talked about beginning,
Speaker 4: a young woman who is confined to a wheelchair, and
Speaker 4: instead of making it this sort of like you know,
Speaker 4: this linear story, it is about you know, going back
Speaker 4: in history, going to Louisiana and talking to talking to
Speaker 4: the perpetrator of the abuse scam of you know, her
Speaker 4: family and getting and trying to figure out who this
Speaker 4: woman was and then who Gypsy is. And there's archival
Speaker 4: VHS tapes, there's interrogation footage, there's text messages between Gypsy
Speaker 4: and boyfriend Nick. There are you know, their interviews with
Speaker 4: her parents where you know, excuse me or her stepmom
Speaker 4: and her dad, where we see pictures of her and
Speaker 4: at the hospital. I mean, it's just it is just
Speaker 4: this totally you know, archival but new material driven film
Speaker 4: that I hope Lee's you know, you're at the edge
Speaker 4: of your seat.
Speaker 7: You're not sure what goes into what happens next.
Speaker 4: You know, that's you know, because of our editor, you
Speaker 4: did a fantastic job.
Speaker 7: You just don't know what's going to.
Speaker 4: Happen next in the story. And you know that was
Speaker 4: my experience when I was making it.
Speaker 6: Yes, and thank you very much again a very powerful film,
Speaker 6: and we hadn't mentioned and we didn't I didn't go
Speaker 6: for it, so there's a surprise ending. So we just
Speaker 6: wanted to tell people tune in to Mommy Dead and dearest.
Speaker 6: Thank you very much Aaron Lee Carr.
Speaker 4: For this, and I hope that I wasn't too coy
Speaker 4: about my answers. I think that I'm you know, I'm
Speaker 4: just trying to keep a couple of things sort of
Speaker 4: under my hat. But I hope that that was okay
Speaker 4: for you, Dan and for the oh people that are listening.
Speaker 6: Well, absolutely, I'm just the most curious person out of
Speaker 6: a whole case I can tell. So we'll be tuning
Speaker 6: in because if we have any one detail that we
Speaker 6: didn't get, we got to tune in. And so I
Speaker 6: don't think we gave anything away. We just really really
Speaker 6: hyped people about viewing Mummy Dead and Dearest on May
Speaker 6: fifteenth on HBO. So thank you very much, Aaron Lee Carr.
Speaker 6: You have a great evening. Thank you very much once.
Speaker 7: Again, spectacular. Thank you, Dan, thank you.
Speaker 6: Goodnight,