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it any way you wish. I really appreciate the support

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everyone gives me. It keeps a show going. It allows

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So thank you for the support. Head on over to

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Freemann Beyond the Wall dot com, Forward slash Support and

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do it there. Thank you. I want to welcome everyone

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back to the Pekanona Show. I am pleased to have

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a guest here that I thought I had to have

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a co host for and I knew that my co host,

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mister field House was a someone who was more well

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read in in mister Lynn's work than in my own

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than I am. So sadly I admit, Uh, mister Williamsslyn,

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how are you doing, miss Land?

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Speaker 2: I'm doing well? Thank you? Here in cold and snowy Cleveland, Ohio.

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Speaker 1: Well it's I'm in cold Central Alabama, but it's I

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assume it's not as cold as Cleveland.

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Speaker 2: We actually went about freezing today. But the high Monday

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and Tuesday is to be five. So if it hits

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that in North Alabama, there's a.

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Speaker 1: Problem central Alabama too. It's we had we had four

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inches of snow last week and people sort of freaked out.

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So all right, let's just jump in. John. I haven't

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talked to you in a while. How are you doing?

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Speaker 3: How you doing? Brother?

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Speaker 1: Good? Good? You want to you have any questions to

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start off? To talk for mister Lynn.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and just to correct in the beginning, I'm doctor

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Admiral field House, but peasants don't have to know.

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Speaker 2: Okay.

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Speaker 3: Anyways, again, that's a joke since most people can't tell

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when I'm joking. So one of the things I think

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We're going to start off talking about fourth generation warfare,

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Doctor Lynn or mister Lynn, because we read your one

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of your essays that have been published in one of

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the Castalia House anthologies. I'm not sure if it was

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the Poor Nell one or the Riding the Red Horse.

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My big things that I want to start off with

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because lots of people quote you, they just don't necessarily

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have read you and don't necessarily get your key points

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or missed some of your key points. What would you

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say is the main misunderstanding about the concept of fourth

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generation warfare that you run into, sir.

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Speaker 2: Well, I'd say the main misunderstanding is it's thought of

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as essentially a tactical problem, when what it actually is

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is a content tests for legitimacy between states, nation states

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and entities that are not nation states, which can be

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Hamas and Hezbolah or Mexican drug cartels or ethnic groupings

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or the list is almost endless. The state, essentially, starting

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in the sixteen hundreds, established a monopoly on legitimacy worldwide,

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and it's now losing that monopoly, and so fourth generation

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warfare is fundamentally a fight for legitimacy between states and

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alternatives to States.

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Speaker 1: All right, I have a question. So my friend, I've

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thought this for a while and my friend, my friend

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Thomas believes this as well, is that what we're going

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to see in the United States is instead of the

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federal government getting someone sweeping in a caesar or something

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like that and becoming an article to president and fixing

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taking us back to you know, times of the past,

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what we're basically going to see is we're going to

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see people have default kind of secessions. You're going to

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have people who politically agree, people who have share values,

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religious values that they're going to find them find each other,

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and they're going to break off into their own communities.

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And do you see that as a form of fourth

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generation warfare in the future.

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Speaker 2: Well, it can certainly turn into that, it can certainly

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feed that. What you're looking for to determine an effect

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which way the contest for legitimacy is going is to

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what or to whom do people give their primary loyalty,

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the loyalty for which they will willingly fight. And we're

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of course already seeing some of that in this country.

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You have Americans who would never volunteer for the US military,

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but will most certainly fight for their religion, or for

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their race or ethnic group, for their ideology, for their cause,

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if you will, like environmentalism. So we're already seeing Americans

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that have been seeing for some time, Americans transfer their

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primary loyalty away from the state to other things. And

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that is that's the ground on which fourth generation warfare

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is fought. So it's already happening. The question is does

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it go so far as the country breaking up? Now?

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I think that was the road that we were on,

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but the President Trump's reelection gets us off that route,

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at least potentially. In my novel Victoria, which is fourth

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generation war in the United States, set in the year

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twenty to fifty looking back under the pen name Thomas

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Hobbs because it's an update of his seventeenth century book Leboon,

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what causes the country ultimately to break apart is the

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federal government using its massive power to force cultural Marxism

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down every American's throat, and at a certain point Americans

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just rebel against it. Well, they just did. They rebelled

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at the ballot box. And not only did Trump win

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the electoral vote, he also won the popular vote, and

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even dem are having to concede that the American people

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in this election rejected what's commonly called woke or political

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correctness or multiculturalism. It's actually the cultural Marxism of the

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Frontfret school. So I think if President Trump's second term

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is successful, and his first term was on the whole

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fairly successful, but he was sabotaged constantly by the people

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who were supposed to be working for him, So I

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think this term could be a lot more successful. If

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it is, then I think we may have gotten off

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the path that leads to a breakup of this country internally.

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But if his presidency is not successful and the cultural

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Marxists are able to come back, then I think we're

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back on that path again, and it becomes a civil

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war between, if you will, the culture of the coastal

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elites and their clients who depend on government largess, against

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the heartland and the American middle class. And that's again,

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that's the contest that in my novel rips America part.

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But I think the good news is we have gotten

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off that path with President Trump's reelection.

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Speaker 3: Sir, I was going to say one of the points

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that especially some of the critics of yours and the

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greater military reform movement. Is they miss assert that the

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state or that you and company are alleging that the

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state is just going to go away. And I don't

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think that's what you or Van Kreveld or Void at

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all had ever said. So is there any comment on that,

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because I know again that's a common misconception that is

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directed towards you and company, sir.

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Speaker 2: Well, the state is in a fight for its survival.

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The intensity of that fight varies enormously from one state

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to another, from places like Libya where the state has

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largely disappeared or Sa'dan to Nigeria where it's just one

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gang among many, through states like the United States where

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the state is still holding, but we do see a

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growing number of people transferring their primary loyalty to other things.

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Two states that obviously are going to survive either very

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unitary states like Japan, or states that have found ways

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to successfully accommodate their differences, such as Switzerland, which has

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four different ethnic groups in it. It has all the

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kinds of of tensions that one would think normally lead

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to fourth generation war, but it solved the problem through federalism,

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which is, by the way, one of the ways we

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can help solve our problem. The real government in Switzerland

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is the contonal level. The joke is, nobody can tell

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you who with the name of the Nobody in Switzerland

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can tell you the name of the Swiss of the

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Swiss president, and there's no reason why they should know

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it because the government is at the knsonal level, and

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the people can overturn any government decision by referendum, and

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they frequently do so. They actually run the place. But

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across most of the spectrum, again, Japan and Switzerland would

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be at the far end. Now they're not going to

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break up, But across most of the spectrum, the state

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is in a fight for its survival. Is it going

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to disappear everywhere? Of course not. It's going to win

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that fight in many cases, which is a good thing,

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as Hobbes reminds us. As Hobbes actually is the first

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to warn us. If the state disappears, life becomes nasty,

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British and short. You can look at places where the

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state has disappeared, like Iraq and Syria and Libya and

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so forth, and yes, that's what life is like. Hobbs

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nailed it about four hundred years ago. But yes, the

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state will survive in many places, and every conservative should

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be hoping the state survives. Whether it's a democracy or not,

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doesn't matter what the state arose to do, And the

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best book on this is Mark vent Krefeld is The

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Rise and Decline of the State. What the state arose

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to do was bring order, safety of persons and property,

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nothing else. It at ust nothing else when when it

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was in its rise. It's since taken on additional functions,

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which isn't necessarily a good thing. But the state remains

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of vital importance because without order, you can't have anything else.

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Everything you have, including your life, your family, is life,

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your property, everything is at the mercy of whoever comes along,

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who is physically stronger and better armed, or more numerous

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than you are. And as I said, as Tom said,

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that means life is nasty, revision and short. So conservatives

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should be focused on maintaining the state and should understand

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that the contest in the twenty first century is not

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between photocracy and democracy, it's between order and disorder, and

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we need to be on the side of the order.

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Speaker 3: If I may, sir, is it fair to say that

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you think that an effective, survivalable state should either be

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something that is relatively small and homogeneous, or some kind

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of federalism that combine smaller units that there are themselves

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homogeneous and relatively smaller.

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Speaker 2: I would put it somewhat differently. I would say for

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a state to succeed, it needs to reflect the history

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and culture of its people, or cultures of its people.

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Sometimes that means the unitary state Japan. Sometimes that means

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a federal state like the United States. One of the

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things I have promoted for many years as part of

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trying to keep the state in the United States alive

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and functioning, is returning to our pre Civil War understanding

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of federalism. When the Constitution was ratified, no one could

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have imagined that the federal government would claim power to

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try to make life in the say South Carolina and

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Massachusetts the same. If they had possibly imagined such a thing,

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they would never have ratified it. The notion would have

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been absurd to them, and rightly so, we need to

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go back to that original understanding. As a conservative, I'm

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a great believer in original intent, that original understanding of federalism,

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where the federal government was small and weak, it didn't

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it was in charge of foreign policy, national defense, and

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not a great deal else. Its revenues were limited, and

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most matters were decided at the state level. And life

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in different states is different. So if you don't, for example,

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like life in California, you do what a great many

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Californians are now doing and move to Florida or Texas.

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We're a mobile people. With that kind of federalism, with

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that kind of decentralization, you greatly reduced the internal friction

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of the state and thereby increase its legitimacy, because even

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though the outlook on life of someone in Massachusetts and

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someone in Alabama may be very different, they can all

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support the union because the union protects all of them.

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I had performed certain vital functions like sound money and

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so forth that they all need without either being able

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to impose his views on the other.

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Speaker 3: That one of my college undergrad history professors made a

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point that still sticks with me that he talked about

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that poor to the creation of the income tax American

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Central the federal government tax policy was largely a question

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of who thought the larger share should be paid by

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tariffs and who thought the larger share should be paid

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by the Wicks Sky tasks, which I really thought put

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in perspective for.

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Speaker 2: Me, but I didn't quite hear you there between those

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who believed it should be paid by tariffs and those

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who thought it should be paid by what.

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Speaker 3: The excise tax on liquor.

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Speaker 2: Serperfes, Yes exactly, which tended to be a Northern Southern

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division in the Civil War. Isn't just about slavery. The

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South one of low tariffs, the North one of high tariffs,

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both for perfectly valid local economic reasons. So yes, that

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was that was very much the debate.

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Speaker 1: So we uh what guy John.

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Speaker 3: No I was going to say, if you have a question,

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go right ahead, Pete.

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Speaker 1: Okay, So we covered one of your longer articles on

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fourth generation warfare, and we wanted to ask with the

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suggestion of a concept of fifth generation warfare that has

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been floating around, what your opinion is of it.

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Speaker 2: Well, when you hear the term fifth generation warfare, you

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can be pretty certain that some company is trying to

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sell a widget I'm probably a very expensive one, saying

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we need it for fifth generational warfare. The concept is

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nonsense because the fourth generation, the contest between states and

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non state entities for legitimacy, is going to take at

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least a century to play itself.

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Speaker 4: Out.

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Speaker 2: Wanting to visualize fifth generation warfare at this point is

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like trying to visualize the Middle Ages from the Late

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Roman Empire. You may be able to visualize that the

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empire is going to fall and there's going to be

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a period of rising barbarism, the decay of civilization, the

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life becoming local, etc. But you can't possibly see how

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that resolves itself into what was the most successful attempt

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thus far to create a truly Christian society, which was

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the Middle Ages. And I have to add almost everything

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people believe about the Middle Ages is wrong. It's a

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caricature created by the misnamed Enlightenment the eighteenth century, which

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heated the Middle Ages because the Middle Ages united faith

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and reason, whereas the Enlightenment put them set them as

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opponents to one another, and of course was on the

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side of pure reason. The Middle Ages were a very

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successful society. Incomes were rising, the population was growing rapidly,

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which is a sign of surpluses, agricultural surpluses. Cities were prospering,

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there was a good bit of technological innovation. And what

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brought it down was the plague. Well, we just got

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a little foretaste of that with COVID didn't. We And

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we've now created a technology in genetic engineering that will

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allow people or perhaps artificial intelligence to create plagues that

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might spread like the common Cold, but have the death

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rate of the back Black plague, when in six weeks

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you lose a third and a half, two thirds in

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some places, some villages, all of your population. Everything changes.

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But to try to visualize the very successful society that

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was the Middle Ages from the late Roman Empire was impossible,

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and it's similarly impossible for us to see beyond at

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this point the contest for legitimacy between the state and

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alternative primary loyalties.

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Speaker 3: My comment in what I've read on people proposing fifth

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generation warfare is, first, I don't think they've ever read

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yours and your associates material. They don't seem to understand that.

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So they seem to be defining it entirely as how

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a central authority would defeat fourth generation warfare tactics. And

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again they see it almost entirely as a tactical modality,

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and they don't really define as anything other than how

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you're going to use technology, because again, very often they're

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trying to.

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Speaker 2: Say something, they're trying to sell you something precisely.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so again I don't think. I don't think they've

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read your book, and I don't think they have a

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counter argument because they don't even understand your argument to

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begin with.

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Speaker 2: Sir, Yes, some of this confusion springs from Tom Hamlets.

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Speaker 4: Now.

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Speaker 2: I've known Tom for many years. He's very bright, and

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he's written some very good stuff. But he gets fourth

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generational warfare wrong. He defines it simply as insurgency. Martin

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van Krefeld put this best. He said, the fourth generation

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is not a change in how war is for it

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is a change in who fights and what they fight for,

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and that is a much larger change than changes in

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how war is for. Tom and I spent a week

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together some years ago with the Royal Marines at stone

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As Barracks in Plymouth, and Tom was trying to come

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to grips with my definition of fourth generation war by saying, oh, well,

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that's really fifth generation. No, Tom, it's not, because insurgency

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is nothing new. It's not a new generation of war,

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and it does not represent the term generation, as I've

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explained in the past, is shorthand for a dialectically qualitative

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sh Now, anyone who knows is Hegel knows that those

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occur only very infrequently. The problem is, I was trying

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to use the four initially the three and then the

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four generations framework to explain maneuver warfare, and for GW

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two Marines. Well, if you mentioned Hegel, they think he

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played shortstop for the Yankees in the thirties. You can't

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use terms like dialectically qualitative shift. So the term I

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came up with is generations, but no insurgency does not

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represent a dialectically qualitative shift. The contest for legitimacy between

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the state and alternatives to the state, does.

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Speaker 1: John, did you want to ask a question about Ukraine,

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how Ukraine and Palestine plays in I think that's a

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good question. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: One of the things that's running around the internet amongst

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your critics is they say that, first they would argue

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that Ukraine completely disproves fourth generation warfare because it's essentially

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fought as a conventional warfare, and some of those same

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people would say that Palestine also refutes that. I don't

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think they're correct, but I would wonder what your response

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would be, sir.

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Speaker 2: Well, generational breaks don't occur overnight. If they did, every

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state military in the world would be third generation. In fact,

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few if any of them are, because they can't break

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with the culture of border that comes out of the

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first generation. So when we look at Ukraine, we see

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as a fight between two states. Absolutely it's not even

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third generation. Where the Russians tried third generation war with

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their initial plan. But and this is a constant problem

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armies face, is they couldn't do tactically what the third

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generation operational plan required. They failed at the tactical level.

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The result has been second generation war. I'm to the

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point where a lot of books like the Western Front

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of World War One and not Late World War One

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where the Germans have become a third generation force. This

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is the Psalm and you pray on Passendale all over again.

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On a smaller scale. Of course, so the generational breaks

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don't occur. History doesn't work that way. But what we're

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seeing is that for both sides, this reversion to state

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versus state warfare carried out in a second generation manner

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has been catastrophic. Both sides entered this war with a

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very serious demographic home that they're now making vastly worse

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because of all the young Russians and Ukrainians who are

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being killed. This is a disaster for all of Christendom. Remember,

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Russia holds Christendom's whole flank, stretching all the way from

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the black seed of a lot of US stock. If

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that flank collapses inward, that is a catastrophe for what's

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left of Christendom at this point, of which Russia is

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very much a part. So fortunately, President Trump realizes that

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this war, even though we're not in it, thank God

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yet about directly needs to be brought to a conclusion

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quickly because the demographic effects on both Russia and Ukraine,

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both of which are strategically important to the United States,

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needs to stop. In the end, what you're going to

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have in the Ukraine Russian war is both sides will

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have lost because of the casualties among an absolutely critical

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mass in their population, critical for reproduction. And that's all

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these young men. It's like Paris after World War One.

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There were no young men on the streets. They were

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all dead.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. I'm sorry to cut you off, sir, you're having point.

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Speaker 5: No.

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Speaker 3: I just one of the things thats when I do

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when I teach, especially officers, one of the things I

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try to emphasize is how bad the attrition the long

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term effects of the attrition in the First World War.

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With the weirdest example I can think of is in

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France there were sports that became extinct because the sector

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of society that played them had all been wiped out.

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And it's like, how many people have to die forever

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for a culture to forget how to play a sport.

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Speaker 2: Well, the British Empire died on the Mother Flanders. It

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was forty percent of the graduates Oxford graduates of class

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of nineteen thirteen were killed. And of course at the

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moral level, the most powerful level after World War One,

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because when all this blood lending was over, nobody could

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tell you what the war had been fought for. That

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no one in the West, in the elites, could believe

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in themselves anymore because they brought about this utter catastrophe

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for no particular reason. And that moral collapsed is ultimately

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what brought the Western domination of the rest of the

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world to an end. I mean, Churchill said, I did

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not become Prime Minister to preside over the dissolution of

401
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the British Empire, but that's exactly what he did, and

402
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he did it because he was a holler for war

403
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in nineteen fourteen. I'm not a fan of Winston Churchill,

404
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and so yes when we see power part of the planet,

405
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Christendom destroying itself in the Civil War, World War One

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and World War Two were civil wars within Christendom, and idiotically,

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after the fall of communism in Russia, we have recreated

408
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a new Cold War between Eastern Christendom and Western Christian

409
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and most idiotic strategic one of the West has made

410
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since nineteen forty five, all done to keep the money

411
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flowing into the usual troughs in Washington. This needs to

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be brought to a quick end. And again, unfortunately President

413
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Trump realizes this. It is exactly like World War One.

414
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It is a demographic catastrophe with very long term, very

415
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negative effects. Now Palestine's a much more interesting situation, and

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here you have seen several non state entities pitted against

417
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a state, Israel. And what we've seen play out is

418
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the usual. When this happens, the state wins at the

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physical level and defeats itself at the moral level. Physically,

420
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Israel has inflicted enormous damage on the Gaza Strip, forty

421
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six thousand, mostly women and kids killed. They Arabs don't

422
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have a demographic problem. They can absorb those losses relativelyzy

423
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because they have tons of kids. Israel has found no

424
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matter what it does tactically, it cannot achieve its war

425
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aims of destroying Hamas militarily and politically. The chief spokesman

426
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before the IDEF came out publicly a few months ago

427
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and said, I mean, this was extraordinary, and said, we

428
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cannot do anything to attain these objectives. The objectives Netanyahu

429
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said are unattainable. In the case of Hazbolah. Bolah turned

430
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out to me and this was a big surprise for

431
00:30:04,440 --> 00:30:07,599
me to have been completely penetrated by Israel. This was

432
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not true of Hamas obviously, or they wouldn't have been

433
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surprised on October seventh. But Hamas was totally penetrated and

434
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it was defeated to the point where it had to

435
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ask for a cease fire, although it was still very

436
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capable of defending on the ground. The Israeli casual Israel

437
00:30:26,079 --> 00:30:28,720
didn't go far in the Lebanon and it suffered pretty

438
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severe casualties by its standards in doing so.

439
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Speaker 1: I go ahead.

440
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Speaker 3: I was just going to comment that has blawed despite

441
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the fact they've had so many losses at their operation

442
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strategic level of leadership. Their junior level leaders have done

443
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surprisingly well and been surprisingly resilient on the battlefield, which

444
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is the total opposite of what I would have expected

445
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from an Arab army, Sir.

446
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Speaker 2: That's because it's not an air of state army, and

447
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this is a non state Arab entity where the peopeople

448
00:31:00,240 --> 00:31:03,119
fighting have much more are much more devoted to what

449
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they're fighting for. That are Arab state armies, and they

450
00:31:10,039 --> 00:31:13,759
are also these are combat experience troops from the fighting

451
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in Syria. So yes, Israel is not eager to go

452
00:31:18,759 --> 00:31:22,079
deeper into Lebanon. It was a ceasefire that most sides

453
00:31:22,119 --> 00:31:28,000
were wanted at this point. The really interesting development here, however,

454
00:31:29,279 --> 00:31:34,200
is what's happening in Syria where a non state entity,

455
00:31:34,920 --> 00:31:39,759
a Sunni group I forget the initials right now, HTF

456
00:31:39,880 --> 00:31:44,160
or something like that, that started off as a branch

457
00:31:44,240 --> 00:31:49,839
of al Qaida and then repudiated both al Qaeda and ISIS,

458
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with backing from a state Turkey that remembers the Ottoman

459
00:31:54,880 --> 00:32:02,279
Empire all too well, has just taken the important parts

460
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of Syria in a lightning campaign and put an end

461
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to the Assad government. Now this is a disaster for

462
00:32:08,599 --> 00:32:11,480
HESBLA on the strategic level, much more so than anything

463
00:32:11,480 --> 00:32:14,160
they suffered at the hands of the Israelis, because this

464
00:32:14,200 --> 00:32:16,359
puts an end of their supply line from your own.

465
00:32:17,880 --> 00:32:21,720
But something very interesting is happening here and other countries

466
00:32:21,759 --> 00:32:25,519
are grasping at this, while Israel's doing its best, of

467
00:32:25,559 --> 00:32:30,759
course to stop it. A fourth generation entity that has

468
00:32:30,839 --> 00:32:38,720
succeeded instead of creating another caliphate where where the Moslems

469
00:32:38,759 --> 00:32:42,119
themselves were under it suffered tremendously like the way Isis

470
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Is did. They are saying, We're just going to become

471
00:32:46,759 --> 00:32:50,400
a normal political party in a normal state. That is

472
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our objective, with toleration for other religions, with the Islamic

473
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notions of women's role. But they won't be the women

474
00:33:02,559 --> 00:33:04,880
won't have to wear black bags every time they go

475
00:33:04,960 --> 00:33:07,039
out of the house and be with a male relative

476
00:33:07,119 --> 00:33:12,279
or they're raped. And this is something that in the

477
00:33:12,319 --> 00:33:16,720
contest between states and non state entities, every state should

478
00:33:16,720 --> 00:33:21,519
be supporting every way it can. We should be immediately

479
00:33:22,200 --> 00:33:26,079
lifting all of the sanctions on this new Syrian government.

480
00:33:26,759 --> 00:33:29,480
Other states are moving to do this, including both France

481
00:33:29,480 --> 00:33:33,680
and Germany, and including Saudi Arabia. And the Gulf States.

482
00:33:34,160 --> 00:33:38,039
We should be pouring aid into support this because the

483
00:33:38,119 --> 00:33:41,960
guy I can't remember his name, the guy who is

484
00:33:42,119 --> 00:33:49,559
heading this operation, needs to be successful. Needs from the

485
00:33:49,559 --> 00:33:54,000
standpoint of our interests, the interest in maintaining the state system,

486
00:33:54,319 --> 00:34:00,519
to be successful. We need to show not just say that, look,

487
00:34:04,559 --> 00:34:10,840
excuse me, a fourth generation entity that becomes a wants

488
00:34:10,880 --> 00:34:13,840
to become a normal state, and a political party within

489
00:34:13,960 --> 00:34:19,360
that state will support that, whether you're a democracy or not.

490
00:34:19,639 --> 00:34:26,920
Speaker 4: By the way, the Israelis are bombing the new Syrian

491
00:34:26,960 --> 00:34:32,440
government because Natagnahu, who has always put his own career

492
00:34:32,480 --> 00:34:33,920
ahead of the interest of.

493
00:34:33,880 --> 00:34:36,920
Speaker 2: His country, needs wars in order to stay in power,

494
00:34:37,000 --> 00:34:40,719
and that's all he cares about. He's been forced into

495
00:34:40,760 --> 00:34:46,400
this sea spire with Hamas because Donald Trump is coming

496
00:34:46,440 --> 00:34:50,519
in and Donald Trump wants to bring these wars, both

497
00:34:50,559 --> 00:34:53,519
in Ukraine and in the Middle East to an end.

498
00:34:54,800 --> 00:35:00,000
But natagna who therefore wants to make sure the city

499
00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:03,800
situation in Syria does not stabilize and that Syria does

500
00:35:03,840 --> 00:35:08,519
not become an example of a fourth generation entity becoming

501
00:35:08,519 --> 00:35:12,280
a normal state because he needs more wars to be

502
00:35:12,320 --> 00:35:15,199
in power. He wants to turn Israel into a garrison

503
00:35:15,239 --> 00:35:20,639
state that is permanently at war, and that of course

504
00:35:21,559 --> 00:35:26,199
totally destroys Israel at the moral level, as his tactics

505
00:35:26,199 --> 00:35:30,360
in Gaza have totally destroyed Israel at the moral level. Now,

506
00:35:30,400 --> 00:35:34,800
Boyd's point was, in his three levels of war, physical, mental, moral,

507
00:35:35,119 --> 00:35:37,960
the physical is the weakest, the moral is the strongest.

508
00:35:38,000 --> 00:35:41,960
And here's why states normally lose fourth generation wars, because

509
00:35:43,039 --> 00:35:45,679
what they do to win at the tactical physical level

510
00:35:46,239 --> 00:35:50,000
destroys them at the moral and strategic levels. That's exactly

511
00:35:50,039 --> 00:35:54,360
what Israel has done in Gaza. Like all the earlier

512
00:35:54,440 --> 00:35:57,880
crusader states, Israel only survives so long as it receives

513
00:35:57,960 --> 00:36:02,480
massive outside support, and it is just alienated all of

514
00:36:02,559 --> 00:36:07,280
that support tremendously. And Netta Yaku doesn't care because he's

515
00:36:07,280 --> 00:36:10,480
stayed Prime Minister and thereby stayed out of jail. That's

516
00:36:10,519 --> 00:36:15,199
all the matters to him. Who is that for Israel?

517
00:36:16,000 --> 00:36:18,559
Speaker 3: To what degree do you think that's a product of having,

518
00:36:19,639 --> 00:36:22,199
in case of Netanyahu's, somebody who's fairly old by the

519
00:36:22,199 --> 00:36:25,360
standards of a head of government, as opposed to somebody

520
00:36:25,679 --> 00:36:28,679
historically we'd have somebody at least twenty years younger, just

521
00:36:28,719 --> 00:36:32,400
because it just it's like Happa's argument about kings that

522
00:36:32,760 --> 00:36:36,639
they're always concerned with the long term, multi generational effect.

523
00:36:36,760 --> 00:36:40,440
But again, was it He's almost seventy, Nen Yahoo's almost seventy,

524
00:36:40,440 --> 00:36:41,960
so it's not like he's going to care about what

525
00:36:42,000 --> 00:36:43,440
happens twenty thirty years from now.

526
00:36:44,079 --> 00:36:47,000
Speaker 1: Well, and he also doesn't have his son, his son

527
00:36:47,199 --> 00:36:50,599
is homosexual and not having kids. I mean, he really

528
00:36:50,639 --> 00:36:55,320
has no legacy. It almost appears as if what he's

529
00:36:55,400 --> 00:36:58,519
doing now he considers to be his legacy going forward.

530
00:37:00,079 --> 00:37:04,239
Speaker 2: Well as a monarcha's of course, I'm happy to agree

531
00:37:05,519 --> 00:37:11,199
that monarchies have a much longer range view and a

532
00:37:11,239 --> 00:37:14,760
republic nobody has much of a long greatge view because

533
00:37:14,800 --> 00:37:19,800
their time in office is limited and their children are

534
00:37:19,840 --> 00:37:28,079
not likely to succeed them. The situation, however, isn't really

535
00:37:28,280 --> 00:37:32,960
just one of age. It is one of the fundamental

536
00:37:32,960 --> 00:37:36,199
dividing points among people at the moral level. And this

537
00:37:36,280 --> 00:37:38,840
is something Joan Boyd talked about a lot. It is

538
00:37:38,880 --> 00:37:41,239
between people who want to do something and people who

539
00:37:41,320 --> 00:37:44,840
want to be something, and you have both at all ages.

540
00:37:45,800 --> 00:37:50,000
There are plenty of young politicians, both in Tel Aviv

541
00:37:50,119 --> 00:37:57,360
and in Washington who will do anything to become a

542
00:37:57,400 --> 00:38:04,800
big cheese surrounded by by bowing minions, guaranteed millions of

543
00:38:04,840 --> 00:38:07,800
dollars once he leaves office, all of the rest of it.

544
00:38:09,519 --> 00:38:12,239
And at the same time, you have people of all

545
00:38:12,280 --> 00:38:15,440
ages who actually want to do something, and some of

546
00:38:15,440 --> 00:38:17,880
them at least want to do things that would be

547
00:38:17,880 --> 00:38:22,320
helpful rather than harmful. I think we've just elected a

548
00:38:22,360 --> 00:38:27,039
president in the United States who's no spring chicking, who

549
00:38:27,079 --> 00:38:33,960
wants to do something, not simply be something, and who

550
00:38:34,000 --> 00:38:36,480
simply wanted to be something. Now staying out of jail

551
00:38:36,920 --> 00:38:41,280
jail is an additional incentive to that. But all his

552
00:38:41,400 --> 00:38:43,960
life he's been someone who just wants to be something,

553
00:38:44,440 --> 00:38:47,199
and he has sacrificed his country over and over to

554
00:38:47,280 --> 00:38:47,719
that end.

555
00:38:49,159 --> 00:38:52,960
Speaker 5: You have anything more, John, I just wanted to before

556
00:38:52,960 --> 00:38:56,320
we move on from the issue of Syria, and again

557
00:38:56,360 --> 00:38:58,239
you said that we need to go or recommend the

558
00:38:58,360 --> 00:39:00,840
United States go and support the current head.

559
00:39:00,719 --> 00:39:05,559
Speaker 3: Of the ISIS affiliate, former ISIS affiliate that is now

560
00:39:05,559 --> 00:39:08,679
the government. And again I'm not accusing you of supporting

561
00:39:08,760 --> 00:39:10,719
the overthrow of the Syrian state, but is it fair

562
00:39:10,719 --> 00:39:15,000
to say that the state being overthrown, which you probably

563
00:39:15,039 --> 00:39:17,079
wouldn't have supported that. You think we have to go

564
00:39:17,119 --> 00:39:22,519
and support it just because the reality of preventing the

565
00:39:23,119 --> 00:39:26,960
antarchic chaotic collapse of this region, or am I probably

566
00:39:26,960 --> 00:39:27,599
putting too much?

567
00:39:28,159 --> 00:39:33,639
Speaker 2: Okay, No, that's exactly right. In other words, the I

568
00:39:33,679 --> 00:39:37,920
was hall in favor of supporting a sad state until

569
00:39:37,920 --> 00:39:42,320
it collapsed, because the name of the game in the

570
00:39:42,360 --> 00:39:46,119
contest between order and disorder is trying to maintain states.

571
00:39:47,199 --> 00:39:52,519
We've done an excellent job of destroying states Iraq, Libya, Syria,

572
00:39:53,400 --> 00:39:56,519
but we find we can't recreate them. Well, here again,

573
00:39:56,880 --> 00:40:00,599
almost miraculously, you have a fourth generation entity that says

574
00:40:00,639 --> 00:40:03,800
our object is to recreate a normal state and be

575
00:40:03,840 --> 00:40:07,440
a political party in that state. Again, whether it's democracy

576
00:40:07,559 --> 00:40:13,639
or autocracy doesn't matter. And so now if we are

577
00:40:13,760 --> 00:40:17,119
going to act in defense of the state system, that

578
00:40:17,199 --> 00:40:22,480
means we should be backing this group that's trying to

579
00:40:22,519 --> 00:40:27,199
transform itself with everything we've got, and that starts with

580
00:40:27,280 --> 00:40:30,840
telling the Israelis in no uncertain terms stop bombing Syria.

581
00:40:31,159 --> 00:40:33,719
They're trying to destroy all of the equipment of the

582
00:40:33,719 --> 00:40:37,440
old Syrian military, but the new Syrian state is going

583
00:40:37,440 --> 00:40:39,960
to need some of that equipment anyway, because it's got

584
00:40:39,960 --> 00:40:47,159
a fight coming up with Isis. So the problem is

585
00:40:47,199 --> 00:40:52,760
getting anybody in Washington to think in terms of what's

586
00:40:52,840 --> 00:40:56,320
going to be the great conflict of the twenty first century.

587
00:40:56,679 --> 00:40:59,679
The state it's going to be ordered versus disorder, the

588
00:40:59,719 --> 00:41:05,400
state versus stateless disorder. That's the divinic lune. And of course,

589
00:41:05,480 --> 00:41:07,760
if you're a member of the blob, the Washington foreign

590
00:41:07,800 --> 00:41:12,880
policy establishment, you don't dear even hint at that, because

591
00:41:12,880 --> 00:41:15,480
you'll instantly cease to be a member of the blog.

592
00:41:15,800 --> 00:41:21,679
You have to live in this Wilsonian Volkunkukusheim, a cloud

593
00:41:21,679 --> 00:41:27,719
cuckoo land where everything is democracy and jacobinical definitions of

594
00:41:27,880 --> 00:41:33,079
human rights and so forth. This bears no relationship to

595
00:41:33,119 --> 00:41:38,599
reality whatsoever. Fortunately, our new president, who takes office on Monday,

596
00:41:38,880 --> 00:41:44,239
is a realist. So again, I, unusually for a conservative,

597
00:41:44,280 --> 00:41:45,239
I have some hope.

598
00:41:46,400 --> 00:41:53,920
Speaker 1: How does Trump's history of his true sympathy is to

599
00:41:54,199 --> 00:41:57,079
Israel as a state. How do you think that plays

600
00:41:57,119 --> 00:42:00,800
into this? If the state of his reel wants to

601
00:42:02,000 --> 00:42:08,039
continue to be the anachronistic kind of entity that it

602
00:42:08,159 --> 00:42:10,679
is for a for a twenty first century state.

603
00:42:12,440 --> 00:42:16,760
Speaker 2: Well, I'm a supporter of Israel too, I've been Israel,

604
00:42:16,920 --> 00:42:21,480
fascinating country. I have Israeli friends, obviously, Martin ben Krefeld

605
00:42:21,519 --> 00:42:26,039
and his wife. The problem isn't Israel, the problem is

606
00:42:26,079 --> 00:42:30,559
net in Yahoo. And Trump recognizes this. I didn't see

607
00:42:30,599 --> 00:42:33,559
the exact quote, but apparently he went public fairly recently

608
00:42:34,280 --> 00:42:40,280
with a blast netsa Yahoo. And Trump's pretty smart in

609
00:42:40,400 --> 00:42:42,519
these kinds of things, and I think he judges in

610
00:42:42,559 --> 00:42:46,840
Yahoo very well, and he realizes that being pro Israel

611
00:42:46,920 --> 00:42:49,159
at this point means being anti Netanyahu.

612
00:42:50,159 --> 00:42:50,639
Speaker 1: Interesting.

613
00:42:51,760 --> 00:42:55,280
Speaker 3: Well, if guy John I was going to say, it's

614
00:42:55,320 --> 00:42:57,280
an interesting case there right now, the fact that Trump

615
00:42:57,360 --> 00:42:59,199
being a New York real estate guy who spent his

616
00:42:59,360 --> 00:43:02,960
entire career dealing with the mafia, it's probably better prepared

617
00:43:03,039 --> 00:43:06,519
him for foreign policy than everything that exists to train

618
00:43:06,599 --> 00:43:09,199
somebody to be a foreign policy professional of the last.

619
00:43:09,280 --> 00:43:12,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, certainly better better than being at the Fletcher School

620
00:43:12,360 --> 00:43:14,800
or the Kennedy School or one of these other places

621
00:43:14,800 --> 00:43:16,840
that turn out new members of the blob.

622
00:43:17,519 --> 00:43:23,440
Speaker 1: Ironically, what happens if they get Ntyahu out of there?

623
00:43:23,480 --> 00:43:27,840
He goes to jail, whatever whatever his future is. And

624
00:43:28,239 --> 00:43:33,760
you Ben Gavier is the loudest voice there talking about

625
00:43:34,360 --> 00:43:37,320
basically it almost sounds like he wants to He would

626
00:43:37,320 --> 00:43:42,199
split LACOUD or seek to kick kick the net Yahoo

627
00:43:42,199 --> 00:43:45,239
faction out of LACUD. What if they just keep this,

628
00:43:46,719 --> 00:43:50,800
they get the hostages back, and they just continue to

629
00:43:50,840 --> 00:43:54,280
do what they do they're they're doing at Gaza. I mean,

630
00:43:54,320 --> 00:43:58,840
how does that play into I mean, if you want

631
00:43:58,920 --> 00:44:03,880
Syria right there to be a to become a state,

632
00:44:04,400 --> 00:44:09,960
and to become stable, how does this continued instability to

633
00:44:10,039 --> 00:44:15,440
its south help it all?

634
00:44:15,599 --> 00:44:18,239
Speaker 2: Again? I don't think Trump is going to let that happen,

635
00:44:19,320 --> 00:44:23,920
because the United States can turn off the speckett to

636
00:44:24,079 --> 00:44:27,760
Israel anytime it wants to. Now, it should have done

637
00:44:27,840 --> 00:44:31,039
that as soon as it saw what Israel was going

638
00:44:31,079 --> 00:44:36,000
to do in Gaza, not just for our interest but

639
00:44:36,039 --> 00:44:38,719
for the long term interests of Israel. We should have

640
00:44:38,760 --> 00:44:41,920
prevented Israel from destroying itself at the moral level, which

641
00:44:41,920 --> 00:44:47,480
it's done. But the Biden administration, all they would do

642
00:44:47,519 --> 00:44:51,039
is oh please, oh please. It was the usual pathetic

643
00:44:51,199 --> 00:44:54,599
mewing of the blog. Trump's not that kind of guy.

644
00:44:55,440 --> 00:44:59,639
He will tell Israel not a dime, not a bullet,

645
00:44:59,719 --> 00:45:02,199
not a shell, not a bomb, not a spare part

646
00:45:02,280 --> 00:45:05,400
for an American built aircraft until you do what we

647
00:45:05,519 --> 00:45:15,719
want you to. Now, I think within Israel, the moral

648
00:45:15,800 --> 00:45:20,159
defeat that Israel has suffered in this war extends to

649
00:45:20,280 --> 00:45:24,800
Israeli internal politics as well. That's something people often overlook.

650
00:45:25,039 --> 00:45:29,039
John Boyd's moral level of war plays domestically as well

651
00:45:29,039 --> 00:45:32,559
as on the international seat. So you now have a

652
00:45:32,639 --> 00:45:39,280
morally unsustainable situation in Israeli politics where you have two

653
00:45:39,360 --> 00:45:44,320
parties largely backed well three, including that could largely backed

654
00:45:44,880 --> 00:45:50,880
by the ultra Orthodox, advocating and demanding that Israel again

655
00:45:50,960 --> 00:45:54,159
turn itself into a garrison state involved in permanent war,

656
00:45:54,719 --> 00:45:59,559
while the ultra Orthodox themselves do not serve in the army.

657
00:46:00,400 --> 00:46:04,280
And until I went to Israel, I didn't realize how

658
00:46:04,320 --> 00:46:08,519
bitter the political divisions are within Israel. And they've gotten

659
00:46:08,559 --> 00:46:11,719
a whole lot more bidd since I was there, which

660
00:46:11,760 --> 00:46:12,519
was some years ago.

661
00:46:13,719 --> 00:46:16,079
Speaker 3: I was just gonna say, sir, because I've casually watched

662
00:46:16,079 --> 00:46:20,800
translated Israeli media and even the extremely right wing what

663
00:46:20,840 --> 00:46:24,599
we call extremely right wing, relatively secular, even though they're

664
00:46:24,719 --> 00:46:31,039
religious Orthodox Jewish mainstream conservatives, they're vitriol towards Heretum who

665
00:46:31,360 --> 00:46:34,440
dodged the draft. And even when they created a separate

666
00:46:35,039 --> 00:46:39,920
battalion just Soreadi soldiers could were servants segregated manners, so

667
00:46:39,920 --> 00:46:43,079
they didn't have to deal with issues that violated their religion.

668
00:46:43,119 --> 00:46:46,719
And they still refused that. There's just so much vitriol

669
00:46:46,920 --> 00:46:49,920
within Israeli culture. So despite the fact they need the

670
00:46:49,920 --> 00:46:54,559
Heredi in order to maintain the electoral majority, there is

671
00:46:54,639 --> 00:46:58,880
just so much tension there within greater Israeli society.

672
00:46:59,559 --> 00:47:04,280
Speaker 2: Right that tension can rip his reel part. I think

673
00:47:04,360 --> 00:47:11,239
when Sinewar, who the leader of Hamas in Gaza, who

674
00:47:11,320 --> 00:47:14,920
was killed not long ago, said we have Israel right

675
00:47:14,960 --> 00:47:18,599
where we want it, where we want it, he understood

676
00:47:19,119 --> 00:47:26,400
the way the Israel's approach to Gaza has ripped Israel

677
00:47:26,400 --> 00:47:30,400
apart internally. And again, this is a morally unsustainable situation

678
00:47:31,000 --> 00:47:36,639
where you have a war hawk party, whether it's not NAPO,

679
00:47:36,760 --> 00:47:40,159
somebody else coming from the Could, who stays in power

680
00:47:40,280 --> 00:47:45,440
only with the votes of the ultra Orthodox, who won't

681
00:47:45,480 --> 00:47:49,320
serve in the army. So in effect, secular Israelis are

682
00:47:49,360 --> 00:47:53,679
saying to the ultra Orthodox, you vote for war, but

683
00:47:53,920 --> 00:47:57,639
send my kids to fight it, not your own. That

684
00:47:57,800 --> 00:48:02,880
is not morally sustainable. And this is going to play

685
00:48:02,880 --> 00:48:05,480
out in very interesting ways within Israel. This is why

686
00:48:05,519 --> 00:48:08,760
I say that to be pro Israel at this point,

687
00:48:08,800 --> 00:48:11,960
and I count myself as pro Israel, you have to

688
00:48:12,000 --> 00:48:17,440
be anti the war party, whether that's Natanyafu or if

689
00:48:17,519 --> 00:48:22,000
he's tossed in the clink, someone else who follows the

690
00:48:22,039 --> 00:48:28,320
same policies, probably again coming out of liquid, this is

691
00:48:28,360 --> 00:48:31,719
simply going to rip Israel part. It's already ripping Israel

692
00:48:31,719 --> 00:48:32,559
a part internally.

693
00:48:33,480 --> 00:48:38,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, it's just going to comment from a

694
00:48:38,519 --> 00:48:42,559
viewer's perspective. It's become such a huge issue that even

695
00:48:42,639 --> 00:48:46,800
the cases where they've had draft process by heretum that

696
00:48:46,880 --> 00:48:49,880
have become near riots. One of the issues that's been

697
00:48:49,880 --> 00:48:54,039
brought up is Magov. The militarized border police are frequently

698
00:48:54,079 --> 00:48:56,360
the guys sent there to break them up as opposed

699
00:48:56,360 --> 00:48:59,320
to regular idea of soldiers, which to an American doesn't

700
00:48:59,360 --> 00:49:01,559
mean anything, but the point's been made out that a

701
00:49:01,639 --> 00:49:05,559
large part of Magov those soldiers are actually ethnic minorities.

702
00:49:05,559 --> 00:49:08,079
So there Israeli Arabs and Jerus and whatnot, So.

703
00:49:09,000 --> 00:49:09,719
Speaker 2: It totally drew.

704
00:49:10,639 --> 00:49:13,199
Speaker 3: Yeah, So it's become an issue that what's essentially the

705
00:49:13,239 --> 00:49:16,760
Israeli portant legion is now cracking the heads of ultra

706
00:49:16,960 --> 00:49:22,239
Orthodox Jews. So on every level this becomes a greater problem.

707
00:49:22,360 --> 00:49:25,079
That just seems to become a greater problem over.

708
00:49:25,000 --> 00:49:28,719
Speaker 2: Time, sir. Yes, Well, when I was in Israel, which

709
00:49:28,800 --> 00:49:31,880
was again quite some years ago, it was already to

710
00:49:31,960 --> 00:49:34,360
the point where one secular was RAELI said to me,

711
00:49:34,719 --> 00:49:37,519
of the ultra Orthodox, we should put them in the

712
00:49:37,599 --> 00:49:39,559
kind of camp where they only come out to smokestat.

713
00:49:40,800 --> 00:49:44,239
So you can imagine what the level of division is now.

714
00:49:45,480 --> 00:49:49,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, in that note too, I would say Israeli political

715
00:49:49,480 --> 00:49:53,440
media is how nasty it is the average American of

716
00:49:53,480 --> 00:49:58,480
any political stripe would't understand that. The was it the

717
00:49:58,519 --> 00:50:02,960
seventy three election when Monoca Megan became Prime Minister. The

718
00:50:03,039 --> 00:50:06,199
lead up election to that, just the slogans thrown around

719
00:50:06,199 --> 00:50:09,840
from both sides read like more anti Submitic than anything

720
00:50:09,880 --> 00:50:12,079
from mine. Comp It's hard for the average American just

721
00:50:12,119 --> 00:50:15,079
to understand how nasty their elections can become.

722
00:50:17,000 --> 00:50:21,039
Speaker 2: Again, I didn't realize this either till I went to Israel.

723
00:50:21,360 --> 00:50:24,840
But yes, in a recent election, one party did have

724
00:50:25,480 --> 00:50:28,159
to withdraw an ad after it was generally recognized as

725
00:50:28,159 --> 00:50:31,719
being anti Semitic. So it does get it reaches a

726
00:50:31,719 --> 00:50:35,440
point where it's almost funny, but it's very serious in Israel.

727
00:50:37,239 --> 00:50:39,360
Speaker 3: The other comment I was going to make, as Pete

728
00:50:39,400 --> 00:50:41,880
had talked about what this could do to the electoral

729
00:50:42,159 --> 00:50:46,000
coalitions number one, which has been an ongoing problem because

730
00:50:46,239 --> 00:50:50,239
Kud proper does not usually have the electoral mandate, so

731
00:50:50,280 --> 00:50:55,440
they need associated parties. But even within Lukud internally, Americans

732
00:50:55,480 --> 00:50:57,440
make the mistake of thinking that this is the party

733
00:50:57,480 --> 00:51:00,679
that was founded day one of the creation Israel, and

734
00:51:00,719 --> 00:51:03,599
it's not. It was the merger of the Liberal Party

735
00:51:03,880 --> 00:51:07,480
essentially market Liberals, Libertarians and Herut, which were the revision

736
00:51:07,480 --> 00:51:11,639
as Zionists and other parties. So it wasn't until was

737
00:51:11,679 --> 00:51:15,440
it eighty three eighty eight that it actually became a

738
00:51:15,519 --> 00:51:19,280
unified party in my lifetime. And it's nothing says it

739
00:51:19,280 --> 00:51:22,360
has to exist forever, which is as Americans, we tend

740
00:51:22,400 --> 00:51:24,199
to assume that a two party system is going to

741
00:51:24,400 --> 00:51:26,639
exist forever, and that's not the case with Israel.

742
00:51:27,400 --> 00:51:29,559
Speaker 2: Well, Israel is not a two party system at all.

743
00:51:31,159 --> 00:51:35,440
It requires coalitions, and that's true of most democracies around

744
00:51:35,519 --> 00:51:39,079
the world. The two party system is an exception. Yeah,

745
00:51:39,199 --> 00:51:44,440
Americas tend not to understand that. It's very interesting that

746
00:51:44,440 --> 00:51:47,480
if I look at the current coming election in February

747
00:51:47,800 --> 00:51:54,519
in Germany, because the polls show the CDUCS as expected

748
00:51:54,639 --> 00:51:58,280
to be in the lead, which is the establishment Conservative

749
00:51:58,280 --> 00:52:04,440
Party which isn't really very conservative. The real Conservative partytivea

750
00:52:04,519 --> 00:52:12,239
fe Deutschland AfD is pulling second. Because it's a multi

751
00:52:12,239 --> 00:52:16,719
party system, it's very unlikely CDUCSU will be able to

752
00:52:16,880 --> 00:52:20,000
have a majority itself. It will have to go into

753
00:52:20,039 --> 00:52:24,079
coalition with someone, but the question is who. Traditionally it

754
00:52:24,079 --> 00:52:27,599
would be the pre Democrat or the pro business par Party,

755
00:52:27,679 --> 00:52:34,920
but they essentially soiled themselves by going into coalition with

756
00:52:34,960 --> 00:52:38,239
the Socialists and the Greens. I'm not sure they're even

757
00:52:38,280 --> 00:52:40,679
going to meet the five percent threshold for the Bundestop

758
00:52:41,639 --> 00:52:44,519
because they essentially and they lost a lot of their

759
00:52:44,559 --> 00:52:48,239
own base by going into that left wing coalition. So

760
00:52:49,199 --> 00:52:52,679
after the election, will the CDUCS you find that the

761
00:52:52,719 --> 00:52:57,360
only viable coalition partner is a FD. Now they're saying

762
00:52:57,880 --> 00:53:01,840
they'll never go into coalition with AfD, but politicians like power,

763
00:53:02,519 --> 00:53:05,480
and when suddenly power is at stake, it's amazing how

764
00:53:05,480 --> 00:53:08,760
a new flexibility can arise on these matters. This is

765
00:53:08,800 --> 00:53:12,440
already happening at the state level in Saxony between CDU

766
00:53:12,719 --> 00:53:15,559
and AfD. They could also go the round of the

767
00:53:15,559 --> 00:53:22,079
Sweden Democrats, where you have a conservative establishment conservative government

768
00:53:22,079 --> 00:53:25,840
in Sweden, but it's a minority government and it depends

769
00:53:25,960 --> 00:53:29,480
on the votes of the Sweden Democrats, the real conservative

770
00:53:29,519 --> 00:53:33,719
party in Sweden, to stay in power. So the Sweden

771
00:53:33,760 --> 00:53:37,960
Democrats technically aren't in the government, but the conservative government

772
00:53:38,639 --> 00:53:43,480
has adopted their policies. Those are Sweden Democrats have fine, again,

773
00:53:43,639 --> 00:53:46,039
you want to be something or do something. These real

774
00:53:46,079 --> 00:53:48,960
conservative parties want to do something, not just be something.

775
00:53:49,280 --> 00:53:51,920
So they've said, fine, as long as you're adopting and

776
00:53:51,960 --> 00:53:55,079
putting into effect the policies we advocate. We don't have

777
00:53:55,159 --> 00:53:58,159
to have seats in the cabinet and in the meantime

778
00:53:58,480 --> 00:54:01,599
you'll have our votes, but you only stay in office

779
00:54:02,119 --> 00:54:04,199
so long as you do have our support.

780
00:54:05,679 --> 00:54:08,920
Speaker 3: That's very interesting, and again, the average American has no

781
00:54:09,000 --> 00:54:12,480
idea how a parliamentary system works, so we don't generally

782
00:54:12,480 --> 00:54:15,320
think of coalition says, you know something they have to

783
00:54:15,320 --> 00:54:16,880
happen in politics.

784
00:54:17,400 --> 00:54:20,119
Speaker 2: One of the I've done a little writing of late

785
00:54:20,199 --> 00:54:24,840
for a German Conservative magazine. One of the things I've

786
00:54:24,920 --> 00:54:29,760
learned is, and this is very encouraging to me, is

787
00:54:29,800 --> 00:54:33,840
that the highest support for monarchy, the return of the

788
00:54:33,840 --> 00:54:39,559
monarchy of Germany, is between voters aged eighteen to thirty.

789
00:54:40,519 --> 00:54:43,679
Young Germans are beginning to realize that they have been

790
00:54:43,760 --> 00:54:48,199
lied to about Germany's history. They've been told that everything

791
00:54:48,320 --> 00:54:53,400
is just leading up to the third Right, Maloney, the

792
00:54:53,480 --> 00:54:57,760
second right, the Kaiserich eighteen seventy one, nineteen eighteen what

793
00:54:58,039 --> 00:55:01,280
Germany was a normal country and a good country. It

794
00:55:01,360 --> 00:55:06,679
had freedom of speech, frequent press, It had regular elections.

795
00:55:07,599 --> 00:55:12,400
The government was responsible to the Kaiser, nor parliament bought

796
00:55:13,079 --> 00:55:15,199
it still had to be able to get its budget

797
00:55:15,199 --> 00:55:18,320
through parliament. So to facto it was responsible to parliament.

798
00:55:19,400 --> 00:55:25,920
And young Germans are beginning to realize, no, we're the

799
00:55:25,960 --> 00:55:28,760
real victims in World War One. The Kaiser did not

800
00:55:28,880 --> 00:55:33,000
want war in nineteen fourteen desperately tried to prevent it.

801
00:55:33,599 --> 00:55:38,280
I have seen the actual last telegram in English and

802
00:55:38,519 --> 00:55:42,119
to Deassar Nicholas the second from Baham the second. Trying

803
00:55:42,159 --> 00:55:47,519
desperately to avoid war, the Kaiser ordered his Foreign office

804
00:55:47,559 --> 00:55:53,360
to telegraph Vienna and say take Belgrade and then stop

805
00:55:53,800 --> 00:55:58,920
and his Foreign office never sent the telegrince. So there's

806
00:55:59,000 --> 00:56:04,119
a rediscovery among Germans that the German past is very admirable,

807
00:56:04,480 --> 00:56:10,079
at least up till nineteen eighteen, and there is growing

808
00:56:10,199 --> 00:56:13,840
interest in recovering this. There's also growing interest in the

809
00:56:13,920 --> 00:56:17,360
various little countries that paide up the Austrian Empire. In

810
00:56:17,400 --> 00:56:24,000
the House of Hobsburg. Two Hobsburg archdukes are currently ambassadors

811
00:56:24,079 --> 00:56:29,800
from Hungary, one to the Vatican, and the Hobsburgs take

812
00:56:29,840 --> 00:56:31,840
the long view. This again, this is how a real

813
00:56:31,880 --> 00:56:37,440
monarchy works. A mere hundred years doesn't necessarily a matter

814
00:56:37,519 --> 00:56:41,199
a great deal to them. They're still there, and virtually

815
00:56:41,280 --> 00:56:44,000
all the people are tough to young people in these countries.

816
00:56:45,000 --> 00:56:47,920
Virtually all the people in these countries realized the golden

817
00:56:47,960 --> 00:56:50,800
age was when they were part of the Austro Hungarian Empire,

818
00:56:51,639 --> 00:56:53,800
and a lot of the young people are saying, can't

819
00:56:53,800 --> 00:56:58,800
we get that back. So some very interesting developments are

820
00:56:59,440 --> 00:57:02,599
taking place that Americans are completely unaware of.

821
00:57:04,599 --> 00:57:06,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, I was going to say. One of the interesting

822
00:57:06,719 --> 00:57:10,519
aspect of the old especially the Imperial States, is especially

823
00:57:10,599 --> 00:57:12,840
German speaking, is they had a huge amount of federalism,

824
00:57:12,920 --> 00:57:16,400
even if they didn't call that where local authorities had

825
00:57:16,519 --> 00:57:20,360
a huge domain in which they were through whatever means ruled,

826
00:57:20,400 --> 00:57:23,480
and that the so long as they paid fealty to

827
00:57:23,519 --> 00:57:27,679
the higher authorities. Very often the emperors were more than

828
00:57:27,719 --> 00:57:28,920
happy to stay OUTI their way.

829
00:57:30,159 --> 00:57:33,360
Speaker 2: Well, the German Empire was very loosely federal. Left there

830
00:57:33,360 --> 00:57:38,880
were still four separate armies Prussia, Bavaria, Saxony and balten Grigenberg.

831
00:57:40,119 --> 00:57:43,440
They all adopted the Prussian model, but they were I

832
00:57:43,480 --> 00:57:46,519
have one of the spiked helmets, but as Bavarian as

833
00:57:46,559 --> 00:57:50,639
the Presto Bavaria on it, not the Prussian Eagle. Those

834
00:57:50,679 --> 00:57:54,639
countries still kept ambassadors in Berlin to in effect the

835
00:57:54,679 --> 00:57:57,400
government that they were also part of, so it was

836
00:57:57,440 --> 00:58:01,519
a very loose federation. In Austin, arch Duke Bronx Britann

837
00:58:01,719 --> 00:58:04,119
wanted to go from the double monarchy to a triple

838
00:58:04,159 --> 00:58:08,400
monarchy where the Slavs, all the Slavs, North, South Slavs

839
00:58:08,400 --> 00:58:12,039
and South slav would have gotten their own parliament, their

840
00:58:12,159 --> 00:58:16,679
own not independence, but they're an autonomy within the empire.

841
00:58:17,039 --> 00:58:21,320
And the nationalist leaders in places like Bohemia and Moravia

842
00:58:21,360 --> 00:58:27,400
which are now part of of czecho that Slovakia is independent.

843
00:58:28,000 --> 00:58:29,800
All of those were saying, we don't want to get

844
00:58:29,880 --> 00:58:32,559
rid of the Empire. We'd be this little tiny state

845
00:58:32,599 --> 00:58:35,199
that would be dominated by either Russia or Germany, who

846
00:58:35,280 --> 00:58:37,960
was ever stronger at the moment, which is exactly what's happened.

847
00:58:38,199 --> 00:58:44,800
We need the Empire and they just wanted more autonomy

848
00:58:44,800 --> 00:58:47,320
for the Slavs within it. And that's exactly what arch

849
00:58:47,360 --> 00:58:50,039
Duke Bronx Burdenand intended to do when he became Kaiser.

850
00:58:53,440 --> 00:58:55,320
And I have a picture on the wall at home

851
00:58:55,400 --> 00:58:58,400
that a friend of mine took in the esacially Spenzam

852
00:58:58,519 --> 00:59:01,239
in Vienna. If you ever go there the Army Story Museum,

853
00:59:01,760 --> 00:59:03,960
make sure you go because there's a room there where

854
00:59:04,000 --> 00:59:08,000
you see the car in which the architect was assassinated

855
00:59:08,039 --> 00:59:11,239
on the bloodstained uniform, and the caption on the picture

856
00:59:11,320 --> 00:59:14,039
is the day the world ended, because that's what happened.

857
00:59:14,519 --> 00:59:18,159
Speaker 3: The question is German I'm in favor of whatever restores

858
00:59:18,239 --> 00:59:20,800
pulch Deutsch hegemony over the convent.

859
00:59:22,199 --> 00:59:29,440
Speaker 2: Well, again, this wasn't exactly hegemony, certainly within the Austrian Empire.

860
00:59:30,880 --> 00:59:34,239
It was moving, in a fact way from German hageoity

861
00:59:34,320 --> 00:59:38,079
toward a more loosely structured federal empire, and I think

862
00:59:38,119 --> 00:59:42,480
that's exactly what it needed to do to survive. But

863
00:59:43,760 --> 00:59:48,960
that June twenty eighth, nineteen fourteen, in Sarajevo, it was

864
00:59:48,960 --> 00:59:49,639
the end of the world.

865
00:59:50,159 --> 00:59:53,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, I was joking, Sir h Okay.

866
00:59:54,920 --> 00:59:59,039
Speaker 2: Never can tell with some people, but there's no question

867
00:59:59,280 --> 01:00:05,559
that the people in Central Europe, particularly the young people,

868
01:00:06,400 --> 01:00:09,519
know that things were once a lot better, and there's

869
01:00:09,599 --> 01:00:13,400
growing interest in bringing back what made it better, and

870
01:00:13,480 --> 01:00:16,559
that includes the houses of Howan's Honor and Hotspin.

871
01:00:17,840 --> 01:00:19,840
Speaker 3: I think the failure of the EU to live up

872
01:00:19,840 --> 01:00:21,840
to its promises probably had a lot to do with that.

873
01:00:21,920 --> 01:00:27,440
Speaker 2: Sir well nol Ferguson, who the very well known historian,

874
01:00:29,159 --> 01:00:33,400
has written as I have written, that if Germany had

875
01:00:33,440 --> 01:00:37,280
won the First World War, the world would probably have

876
01:00:37,320 --> 01:00:41,199
had a much better twentieth century because what she would

877
01:00:41,239 --> 01:00:43,599
have gotten. And the Kaiser didn't want war, but once

878
01:00:43,599 --> 01:00:46,239
he was forced into it, his war aim was the

879
01:00:46,280 --> 01:00:49,480
creation of a united Europe. Would have been under German

880
01:00:49,599 --> 01:00:54,119
leadership as it is today because Germany's the dominant economy.

881
01:00:54,360 --> 01:00:57,239
He said over and over, and he insisted Germany back

882
01:00:57,280 --> 01:01:01,840
down and crises over and over said that Germany is

883
01:01:01,920 --> 01:01:05,360
faded to dominate Europe economically. The only thing that can

884
01:01:05,400 --> 01:01:08,679
derail at his rule. And he was known derisively in

885
01:01:08,760 --> 01:01:11,960
Germany in some circles as the peace Kaiser because in

886
01:01:12,079 --> 01:01:16,000
crisis after crisis he insisted Germany back down to preserve peace.

887
01:01:18,320 --> 01:01:21,119
You would have had a twentieth century without either Hitler

888
01:01:21,639 --> 01:01:26,480
or Lenin or Stalin ah, and you would have had

889
01:01:26,519 --> 01:01:30,679
a united Europe earlier under German leadership. As as I say,

890
01:01:30,920 --> 01:01:33,480
is it inevitably is going to be under German leadership,

891
01:01:33,519 --> 01:01:35,559
and in fact the leadership of the hand of it

892
01:01:35,719 --> 01:01:44,079
right now is German. So nineteen fourteen was a catastrophe

893
01:01:44,119 --> 01:01:45,480
that continues to enroll.

894
01:01:47,199 --> 01:01:50,599
Speaker 3: I very much agree with that, sir. And again, Pete,

895
01:01:50,639 --> 01:01:53,400
tell me when I'm taking too much control of the conversation.

896
01:01:54,000 --> 01:01:57,320
I didn't longer you had, sir. But I've got one

897
01:01:57,400 --> 01:01:58,000
or two more.

898
01:01:57,880 --> 01:02:00,159
Speaker 2: RELI questions that wrap up at this point.

899
01:02:00,639 --> 01:02:06,760
Speaker 3: Okay, sir, but go ahead real quick. I just wanted

900
01:02:06,760 --> 01:02:09,079
to ask in terms of leader to development, because that's

901
01:02:09,119 --> 01:02:11,360
a big thing that Boyd and the rest of the

902
01:02:11,400 --> 01:02:16,159
military reformers talked about on the topic of training military leaders.

903
01:02:16,519 --> 01:02:18,679
What would you say is the one essential thing that

904
01:02:19,039 --> 01:02:23,519
the current military political management class does and understand and

905
01:02:23,719 --> 01:02:26,239
or if you had to make one recommendation and how

906
01:02:26,239 --> 01:02:29,679
you changed how military leaders were trained, what would it be, sir.

907
01:02:31,280 --> 01:02:36,039
Speaker 2: The most essential church that change is to realize what

908
01:02:36,119 --> 01:02:39,000
the German Army realized after World War One and what

909
01:02:39,039 --> 01:02:45,280
General Hansbonzek embodied in the post war regulations, which is

910
01:02:45,320 --> 01:02:49,519
that the modern battlefield requires a thinking soldier who takes

911
01:02:49,559 --> 01:02:55,639
initiative at every level right down through the most junior

912
01:02:56,000 --> 01:03:00,679
private in the German Army. Of course, the German develop

913
01:03:00,800 --> 01:03:04,440
mission type orders, mission orders tactics before.

914
01:03:04,119 --> 01:03:04,800
Speaker 4: World War One.

915
01:03:04,880 --> 01:03:07,719
Speaker 2: This was in the nineteenth century, but it only extended

916
01:03:07,800 --> 01:03:13,039
down through officers. The World War One battlefield made them

917
01:03:13,079 --> 01:03:19,159
realize that, no, the battlefield's now so decentralized that you

918
01:03:19,360 --> 01:03:23,880
have to have at every level soldiers who understand what

919
01:03:24,000 --> 01:03:27,760
the command or several levels up as trying to achieve

920
01:03:27,840 --> 01:03:30,239
in terms of the result he wants, and they take

921
01:03:30,280 --> 01:03:33,880
initiative to get that result. They take the initiative is

922
01:03:33,920 --> 01:03:37,519
more important than obedience. That is the number one train

923
01:03:38,000 --> 01:03:42,159
change that's needed, and it's a change in institutional culture.

924
01:03:42,719 --> 01:03:46,559
The second generation, first and second generation institutional culture, and

925
01:03:46,639 --> 01:03:49,239
I talk about this in my latest book, The Newman

926
01:03:49,280 --> 01:03:54,960
of War. For handbook is inward focused on rules, processes, procedures.

927
01:03:55,000 --> 01:04:03,840
It wants imposed discipline, not self discipline. It is overall

928
01:04:04,280 --> 01:04:08,639
it wants what the Germans called kadavagaholism kite the zombie

929
01:04:08,760 --> 01:04:13,280
like obedience. The culture of a third generation, fourth generation

930
01:04:13,400 --> 01:04:17,360
military is outward focused on this situation, the result, and

931
01:04:17,679 --> 01:04:20,440
the result of the situation requires and getting that result.

932
01:04:20,960 --> 01:04:24,559
It wants initiative over obedience. It depends on imposed on

933
01:04:24,679 --> 01:04:29,519
self rather than imposed discipline, and decision making is very decentralized.

934
01:04:30,239 --> 01:04:33,239
So this has to start in training, and it has

935
01:04:33,320 --> 01:04:37,079
to start with the most junior soldier or marine. The

936
01:04:37,119 --> 01:04:40,199
best work on this by far has been Don Vandergriff's

937
01:04:40,760 --> 01:04:44,039
and his books on what the terms changed over the years.

938
01:04:45,400 --> 01:04:50,880
Adaptive leader training is I think the best term for it,

939
01:04:50,960 --> 01:04:54,000
and his books lay out very well exactly how to

940
01:04:54,079 --> 01:04:58,880
do it. But until you make this transition in training,

941
01:05:00,159 --> 01:05:03,559
you can have like the Marine Corps third generation doctrine,

942
01:05:03,800 --> 01:05:05,679
but you will in terms of what you do, you

943
01:05:05,719 --> 01:05:09,079
will remain a second generation military, as the Marine Corpt

944
01:05:09,159 --> 01:05:10,039
today still gives.

945
01:05:11,719 --> 01:05:13,599
Speaker 1: All right, John if you don't have anything else. I'm

946
01:05:13,599 --> 01:05:17,280
going to wrap up here and thank mister Lynn for

947
01:05:17,360 --> 01:05:22,960
joining us and ask, oh, of course, do you what

948
01:05:23,199 --> 01:05:25,760
do you have to promote? You just mentioned your latest book,

949
01:05:27,039 --> 01:05:31,920
which is a new maneuver warfare handbook that came out

950
01:05:31,960 --> 01:05:34,199
April of last year or so. Is there anything else

951
01:05:34,280 --> 01:05:35,440
you would like to promote?

952
01:05:35,920 --> 01:05:38,119
Speaker 2: I would just say that the two other places I

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write for are the American Conservative Magazine. I write for

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the print magazine. They're only six a year, but I

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write roughly every week or so for a website called

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traditionalrite dot com, and I write on both political and

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01:05:53,320 --> 01:05:57,280
military topics. So if people are interested in what I'm

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01:05:57,280 --> 01:06:01,960
thinking on current events and so forth, those are good places.

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Speaker 1: To find it. Well, John, I appreciate your input today

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01:06:06,599 --> 01:06:09,719
and your line of questioning that you brought to it,

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and mister Lynn, we appreciate you and hopefully sometime in

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the future you can come back on and well because

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01:06:17,480 --> 01:06:20,079
we have there's endless subjects to talk about.

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Speaker 2: There is certainly no shortage of material these days, and

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I think the transformations that I'm hoping for from the

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Trump administration will nominly give us more material, and it

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will give us something we haven't had in a very

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long time, which is some developments that are optimistic in

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01:06:40,519 --> 01:06:41,320
what they pretend.

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Speaker 1: Well, I will, I will keep in contact with here,

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with your with the contact that got us together, and

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maybe you can come on after the first hundred days

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and we can talk about what we've seen.

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Speaker 2: I will be happy to We will just hope those

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hundred days don't end up Waterloo this time.

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Speaker 1: Thank you so much, sir, appreciate you.