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So join me 50 00:01:56.359 --> 00:01:59.879 and the fun sign up now at chumbacasino dot com. 51 00:02:00.000 --> 00:02:04.680 The Overtipitary by Lost Organitions eighteen pluss. 52 00:02:13.520 --> 00:02:16.960 You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking 53 00:02:17.039 --> 00:02:20.080 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 54 00:02:20.159 --> 00:02:27.439 written about them Gasey Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK. Every 55 00:02:27.479 --> 00:02:31.159 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 56 00:02:31.240 --> 00:02:35.800 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host, 57 00:02:36.159 --> 00:02:38.680 journalist and author Dan Zufanski. 58 00:02:49.039 --> 00:02:54.159 Good Evening. On March eleven, two thousand and three, In Brownsville, Texas, 59 00:02:54.159 --> 00:02:59.400 one of America's poorest cities, John Ellen Rubio and Angela 60 00:02:59.479 --> 00:03:03.960 Comaccho murdered their three young children. The apartment building in 61 00:03:04.000 --> 00:03:07.319 which the brutal crimes took place was already run down, 62 00:03:07.560 --> 00:03:10.599 and in their aftermath, a consensus developed in the community 63 00:03:10.639 --> 00:03:13.639 that it should be destroyed. It was a place neighbours 64 00:03:13.680 --> 00:03:17.680 felt that was plagued by spiritual cancer. In two thousand 65 00:03:17.680 --> 00:03:20.560 and eight, journalist Laura Tilman covered the story for the 66 00:03:20.599 --> 00:03:25.360 Brownsville Herald. The questions it raised haunted her, particularly one 67 00:03:25.360 --> 00:03:28.080 asked by the sole member of the city's Heritage council 68 00:03:28.080 --> 00:03:31.639 to oppose demolition. Is there any such thing as an 69 00:03:31.639 --> 00:03:36.280 evil building. Her investigation took her far beyond that question, 70 00:03:36.719 --> 00:03:39.800 revealing the nature of the toll that the crime exacted 71 00:03:39.800 --> 00:03:43.360 on a city already racked with poverty. It sprawled into 72 00:03:43.400 --> 00:03:47.319 a six year inquiry into the larger significance of such acts, 73 00:03:47.680 --> 00:03:50.719 one so difficult to imagine or explain that their perpetrators 74 00:03:50.719 --> 00:03:55.879 are often dismissed as monsters alien to humanity. With meticulous 75 00:03:55.919 --> 00:04:00.360 attention and stunning compassion, Tillman surveyed those surrounding the crime times, 76 00:04:00.680 --> 00:04:03.599 speaking with the lawyers who tried the case, the families, 77 00:04:03.639 --> 00:04:06.639 neighbors and relatives, and teachers, even one of the murderers, 78 00:04:07.159 --> 00:04:11.159 John Alan Rubio himself, whom she corresponded with for years 79 00:04:11.199 --> 00:04:14.840 and ultimately met in person. The result is a brilliant 80 00:04:14.919 --> 00:04:19.360 exploration of some of our age's most important social issues, 81 00:04:19.759 --> 00:04:23.480 from poverty to mental illness to the death penalty, and 82 00:04:23.600 --> 00:04:27.480 a beautiful, profound meditation on the truly human forces that 83 00:04:27.600 --> 00:04:32.759 drive them. It is disturbing, insightful, and mesmerizing an equal measure. 84 00:04:33.360 --> 00:04:35.240 The book that we're featuring this evening is The Long 85 00:04:35.360 --> 00:04:39.800 Shadow of Small Ghosts, Murder and Memory in an American City, 86 00:04:40.439 --> 00:04:43.959 with my special guest journalist and author Laura Tilman. Welcome 87 00:04:44.000 --> 00:04:45.920 to the program, and thank you very much for agreeing 88 00:04:45.920 --> 00:04:50.240 to this interview. Laura Tilman, thanks so much for having me. 89 00:04:51.560 --> 00:04:56.959 Thank you very much. Incredible story again, just an amazing 90 00:04:57.680 --> 00:05:04.680 another slice of a Marria, Canada that we knew nothing about. Incredible. 91 00:05:05.360 --> 00:05:09.560 Let's talk about how you came to be involved with this. 92 00:05:10.439 --> 00:05:13.480 Let's talk about that you were. You say that you 93 00:05:13.519 --> 00:05:16.800 were about midway through your first year as a newspaper 94 00:05:16.879 --> 00:05:22.199 reporter when you walked to the apartment in Brownsville, Texas 95 00:05:22.519 --> 00:05:25.399 where a couple had murdered their children. So tell us 96 00:05:25.480 --> 00:05:30.279 before this investigation how much you knew of this. It 97 00:05:30.319 --> 00:05:33.040 wasn't really your forte But what did you know about 98 00:05:33.040 --> 00:05:36.600 this crime before you came to this assignment? And then 99 00:05:36.639 --> 00:05:40.600 tell us about this assignment In the first six months 100 00:05:40.680 --> 00:05:41.800 as a reporter. 101 00:05:45.000 --> 00:05:47.800 So I knew a little bit about it, mainly from 102 00:05:47.839 --> 00:05:50.920 the other reporters in the newsroom at the Brownsville Herald 103 00:05:50.959 --> 00:05:55.560 where I worked. It was a case that had really 104 00:05:55.639 --> 00:05:59.240 haunted the community of Brownsville, and some of my fellow 105 00:05:59.279 --> 00:06:02.199 reporters did tell me about it. There was a file 106 00:06:02.319 --> 00:06:06.519 cabinet in our office that I remember was filled with 107 00:06:07.920 --> 00:06:13.120 pages of documentation from the first trial of John Allen Rubio, 108 00:06:13.639 --> 00:06:17.480 and in that filing cabinet was a copy of whose 109 00:06:17.480 --> 00:06:22.000 written confession, and I remember reading that and finding it 110 00:06:22.040 --> 00:06:28.399 really disturbing and difficult, especially because there were all of 111 00:06:28.439 --> 00:06:33.120 these tiny details of things that had happened that were 112 00:06:33.160 --> 00:06:36.639 so specific, and it just made the crime really come 113 00:06:36.680 --> 00:06:42.519 to life in a difficult way. So that was kind 114 00:06:42.560 --> 00:06:46.839 of the first time that I started hearing about the case, 115 00:06:47.000 --> 00:06:51.199 and then as time went on, I was sent to 116 00:06:51.920 --> 00:06:55.959 go to the building where this crime had happened because 117 00:06:56.000 --> 00:06:57.879 of this debate of whether or not it should be 118 00:06:57.920 --> 00:07:03.480 torn down, and that visit made a big impression on 119 00:07:03.560 --> 00:07:09.000 me right away, mainly because it seemed like people were 120 00:07:09.040 --> 00:07:14.600 suddenly voicing these questions and concerns that had something to 121 00:07:14.680 --> 00:07:17.839 do with the building and the case that really had 122 00:07:17.879 --> 00:07:22.519 to do with much more profound meditations on the meaning 123 00:07:22.600 --> 00:07:25.399 of that case and their community and their lives, of 124 00:07:25.920 --> 00:07:29.360 what it said about their town that something like this 125 00:07:29.439 --> 00:07:34.839 could happen there, And this question emerged of whether the 126 00:07:34.879 --> 00:07:38.720 building itself was sort of being blamed for human crimes, 127 00:07:40.000 --> 00:07:45.759 and also whether there was a parallel to be found 128 00:07:45.800 --> 00:07:49.439 between the execution of this man, John Allen Ruveo on 129 00:07:49.519 --> 00:07:53.040 death row, and the destruction of this apartment building. 130 00:07:55.480 --> 00:07:58.199 Now at the time you have this assignment for our 131 00:07:58.240 --> 00:08:01.120 audience for the timeline, because we talked about in the 132 00:08:01.160 --> 00:08:05.480 introduction that there's a couple trials at this point, where 133 00:08:05.519 --> 00:08:08.759 are they in terms of in between the first or 134 00:08:08.800 --> 00:08:12.399 the second trial appeal? Where are they at the time 135 00:08:12.480 --> 00:08:16.000 of that assignment for you to look at this potential 136 00:08:16.040 --> 00:08:19.240 demolition of this haunted building. 137 00:08:20.480 --> 00:08:24.240 I believe at that point John had been sentenced to 138 00:08:24.319 --> 00:08:28.800 death during his first trial, but then had won his 139 00:08:28.920 --> 00:08:34.879 appeal because his common law wife, a woman named Maria 140 00:08:34.919 --> 00:08:41.919 Angela Camacho, who also was a participant in the murders, 141 00:08:42.480 --> 00:08:50.039 had the attorneys for the prosecution had entered into the 142 00:08:50.159 --> 00:08:54.759 trial of videotape of her answering questions from detectives, and 143 00:08:54.799 --> 00:09:00.320 because she didn't testify, there was a ruling that John 144 00:09:00.360 --> 00:09:04.399 won on appeal because his defense team was never able 145 00:09:04.440 --> 00:09:08.960 to effectively cross examine her. Because of this, John was 146 00:09:09.200 --> 00:09:13.080 granted a second trial, but it took some time for 147 00:09:13.159 --> 00:09:17.039 that to happen. That didn't actually happened until twenty ten, 148 00:09:17.360 --> 00:09:19.879 So we're talking about two thousand and eight when I 149 00:09:20.000 --> 00:09:24.360 was writing about the building, which is midway between these 150 00:09:24.399 --> 00:09:27.720 two different trials. 151 00:09:28.120 --> 00:09:31.600 Now you get back to the building and your assignment, 152 00:09:31.840 --> 00:09:34.480 and there's the outside of the building, and you interview 153 00:09:34.799 --> 00:09:40.919 people neighbors. You talk about Minerva and another gentleman, so 154 00:09:41.000 --> 00:09:43.679 you ask them about the building, what they think, what 155 00:09:43.720 --> 00:09:47.759 their impressions are, and you also talk about interspersed through 156 00:09:47.799 --> 00:09:50.440 this whole story, but in the very beginning, you lay 157 00:09:50.440 --> 00:09:54.840 it out the history of Brownsville in terms of poverty. 158 00:09:55.600 --> 00:09:57.960 You lay it out where they are in terms of 159 00:09:57.960 --> 00:10:03.120 the status of the poorest in America. And it's proximity 160 00:10:03.159 --> 00:10:05.720 to Mexico. So tell us where it is close to 161 00:10:06.440 --> 00:10:09.039 and tell us a little bit about Brownsville, so we 162 00:10:09.080 --> 00:10:11.559 can set the stage for this story too. 163 00:10:14.399 --> 00:10:19.399 Absolutely so. Brownsville is at the southernmost tip of Texas. 164 00:10:20.120 --> 00:10:22.000 It is if you sort of look at a map 165 00:10:22.039 --> 00:10:25.960 and you look at where Texas meets the Gulf and 166 00:10:26.000 --> 00:10:29.480 meets Mexico at the very bottom, that's where Brownsville is located. 167 00:10:30.320 --> 00:10:34.200 And it has been ranked at off and on as 168 00:10:35.799 --> 00:10:38.240 one of the poorest areas of the country, if not 169 00:10:38.360 --> 00:10:42.960 the poorest area of the country. At times it's a 170 00:10:43.080 --> 00:10:50.480 historically disenfranchised area. There's no medical school in Brownsville. There 171 00:10:50.879 --> 00:10:54.200 isn't a law school for in Brownsville or for two 172 00:10:54.240 --> 00:10:59.240 hundred and fifty miles around within the United States. So 173 00:10:59.279 --> 00:11:02.559 it's an area where the best and brightest has been 174 00:11:02.799 --> 00:11:05.519 kind of subject to a brain drain, where they often 175 00:11:05.639 --> 00:11:07.879 leave and go to Austin or go to other parts 176 00:11:07.879 --> 00:11:12.919 of the country looking for higher education or better jobs. 177 00:11:13.320 --> 00:11:17.720 So that's part of what contributes to it. It's a 178 00:11:17.879 --> 00:11:24.360 very beautiful area. Geographically, there's it's sort of a subtropical area. 179 00:11:24.399 --> 00:11:27.799 It's not when people picture the US Mexico border. I 180 00:11:27.840 --> 00:11:30.879 think a lot of the time they picture the Sonora 181 00:11:30.919 --> 00:11:36.000 Desert in Arizona, where they picture the deserts around El 182 00:11:36.120 --> 00:11:39.519 Paso and Warez. That's that's not what we're talking about 183 00:11:39.919 --> 00:11:44.320 when it comes to Brownsville. This is a fertile river valley. 184 00:11:44.960 --> 00:11:50.799 There's a lot of citrus sugar cane grown here. It's 185 00:11:50.840 --> 00:11:56.679 a place where there are lakes and palm trees interspersed 186 00:11:56.759 --> 00:12:00.720 among the houses. And they're also different parts to the city. 187 00:12:00.919 --> 00:12:04.039 Not all parts of the city are as poor as 188 00:12:04.120 --> 00:12:08.759 the section where this crime takes place. This crime takes 189 00:12:08.759 --> 00:12:13.399 place in an area called Barrio Buenavida, which is translated 190 00:12:13.799 --> 00:12:19.080 as the good Life. Ironically, unfortunately, this is one of 191 00:12:19.120 --> 00:12:22.440 the poorest areas of the city and therefore of the country. 192 00:12:23.240 --> 00:12:27.279 It's a place where a lot of the crime centers 193 00:12:27.360 --> 00:12:30.120 in Brownsville. It's a place where there are a lot 194 00:12:30.120 --> 00:12:34.720 of transient people who are on their way somewhere else, 195 00:12:35.159 --> 00:12:39.000 who are very vulnerable. And it's also a place where 196 00:12:39.480 --> 00:12:42.919 drugs and prostitution kind of center in the city as well. 197 00:12:45.679 --> 00:12:47.559 Now, when you looked at this house, and I know 198 00:12:48.120 --> 00:12:51.120 people might believe, and you may believe that you would 199 00:12:51.120 --> 00:12:55.919 feel something in this sight of this horror, But tell 200 00:12:56.000 --> 00:12:59.600 us a little bit about your impression and some of 201 00:12:59.639 --> 00:13:02.919 the inner use what the like again, what the neighbors, 202 00:13:02.919 --> 00:13:06.759 like Minerva had to say about either this building being 203 00:13:06.799 --> 00:13:09.759 haunted or should it be demolished? Tell us a little 204 00:13:09.759 --> 00:13:10.320 bit about that. 205 00:13:12.279 --> 00:13:16.759 Yeah, So the building, which is there's a photograph a 206 00:13:16.799 --> 00:13:19.240 lot of it on the cover of the book. Actually, 207 00:13:21.159 --> 00:13:23.559 if people are listening and want to get a sense, 208 00:13:23.639 --> 00:13:27.080 you can just google it and it'll come up. It's 209 00:13:27.159 --> 00:13:31.519 a very unattractive building, I think in virtually every way. 210 00:13:31.600 --> 00:13:35.879 It's a two story apartment building, that's white, but over 211 00:13:35.960 --> 00:13:40.200 the years has been left in disrepair. It's kind of 212 00:13:40.240 --> 00:13:49.080 a filthy color. It's at times had there were small 213 00:13:49.159 --> 00:13:51.919 improvements sort of made on it over the years, if 214 00:13:51.960 --> 00:13:54.399 you could call them that. As I was reporting on this, 215 00:13:54.559 --> 00:13:57.600 but when I began, there was a staircase on the 216 00:13:57.600 --> 00:14:01.799 back that was sort of halfway falling apart, doors and 217 00:14:01.919 --> 00:14:06.559 windows that looked like they had kind of fallen apart 218 00:14:06.679 --> 00:14:11.759 years ago and just been left to deteriorate. This is 219 00:14:11.799 --> 00:14:15.679 actually building in one of the central areas of the city. 220 00:14:15.720 --> 00:14:19.360 It's just blocked from the federal courthouse and the police 221 00:14:19.360 --> 00:14:23.279 station and the county courthouse, and in fact the newspaper building. 222 00:14:25.519 --> 00:14:29.279 But I think it's carried different legacies over the years. 223 00:14:29.639 --> 00:14:31.840 When I talked to Minerva about it, a lot of 224 00:14:31.840 --> 00:14:35.919 her memories of the building were from her childhood, because 225 00:14:35.960 --> 00:14:38.399 it had been there, you know, as long as she'd 226 00:14:38.440 --> 00:14:41.600 been alive. She'd been living in that house her whole 227 00:14:41.679 --> 00:14:45.759 life and was very used to it. But it had 228 00:14:45.840 --> 00:14:49.799 kind of turned from a place where humble shrimpers and 229 00:14:49.840 --> 00:14:53.559 their wives lived, where there was a gas station at 230 00:14:53.559 --> 00:14:58.919 one point and a small store, to a place that 231 00:14:59.320 --> 00:15:03.720 was one of the cheapest places in the city to live, 232 00:15:04.399 --> 00:15:08.440 but was not kept up and had become a place 233 00:15:08.759 --> 00:15:11.679 because of the murders that was kind of haunted by 234 00:15:11.679 --> 00:15:17.480 that legacy. I remember an instance where I went was 235 00:15:17.519 --> 00:15:20.639 finally able to go inside the building, and Minerva told 236 00:15:20.639 --> 00:15:24.240 me to get some holy water. So there was a 237 00:15:24.279 --> 00:15:28.240 sense that not only was the building kind of haunted 238 00:15:28.240 --> 00:15:31.360 by the murders, but that the people who surrounded it 239 00:15:31.399 --> 00:15:35.159 and who came into contact with it were also similarly 240 00:15:35.399 --> 00:15:39.159 haunted or sort of affected by it. People said they 241 00:15:39.240 --> 00:15:42.759 heard the sounds of the kids screaming at night and 242 00:15:42.840 --> 00:15:48.559 things like that, and it just had become an eyesore 243 00:15:49.080 --> 00:15:51.720 on the community. At the same time, this is a 244 00:15:51.919 --> 00:15:57.080 historic building because of its age, it has some historic 245 00:15:57.159 --> 00:16:03.360 status in Texas, and that gave it a measure of protection. Really, 246 00:16:03.399 --> 00:16:06.440 without that measure of protection, I wouldn't have written a 247 00:16:06.440 --> 00:16:08.879 book at all, because I think the building would have 248 00:16:08.960 --> 00:16:13.360 been destroyed long ago. But because of its historic status, 249 00:16:13.399 --> 00:16:18.759 there was this sort of necessary gureaucratic debate over what 250 00:16:18.879 --> 00:16:22.279 funding could be used to demolish it, whether they would 251 00:16:22.320 --> 00:16:24.960 need to document it in some way, whether there was 252 00:16:25.000 --> 00:16:28.840 an argument to preserve it and turn it into something else, 253 00:16:29.159 --> 00:16:34.840 and that really fascinated me, because when you see something 254 00:16:34.879 --> 00:16:39.480 that so many people have written off as not only 255 00:16:39.639 --> 00:16:44.759 just unappealing and unattractive, but in fact perhaps haunted or cursed, 256 00:16:45.639 --> 00:16:49.200 and then there's this idea that you could go beyond 257 00:16:49.279 --> 00:16:52.120 that and you could turn it into something that would 258 00:16:52.159 --> 00:16:56.080 actually help people prevent the kinds of crimes that had 259 00:16:56.120 --> 00:17:01.120 occurred inside. It seemed like such a revolutionary concept because 260 00:17:01.799 --> 00:17:05.039 it was just so far away from the way that 261 00:17:05.640 --> 00:17:10.000 most people perceived this place. So I think that that 262 00:17:10.039 --> 00:17:12.359 was a big driving factor for me in the beginning 263 00:17:13.039 --> 00:17:17.559 of writing this was really to question, well, what do 264 00:17:17.640 --> 00:17:20.599 we do when these crimes occur? Is there some sort 265 00:17:20.640 --> 00:17:25.119 of constructive way of making meaning out of them instead 266 00:17:25.119 --> 00:17:29.119 of writing them off as simply horrible events that come 267 00:17:29.160 --> 00:17:33.319 and go, or a way to act in the spirit 268 00:17:33.400 --> 00:17:37.079 of prevention instead of destruction. And I think that goes 269 00:17:37.119 --> 00:17:40.079 back to also the way that we look at prisoners 270 00:17:40.079 --> 00:17:45.200 in our country, do we try to genuinely rehabilitate them? 271 00:17:46.480 --> 00:17:49.440 When we look at criminals, do we act in the 272 00:17:49.519 --> 00:17:55.359 spirit of punishment or rehabilitation and in a way try 273 00:17:55.359 --> 00:17:59.720 to appeal to the best of ourselves, our most maybe 274 00:17:59.839 --> 00:18:04.079 not leave hopes for how we can make the world better. 275 00:18:04.480 --> 00:18:07.000 And so one of the things I think I confronted 276 00:18:07.039 --> 00:18:10.640 when talking to people was a question of whether I 277 00:18:10.680 --> 00:18:14.480 was just being my knee and my pursuit of those answers, 278 00:18:15.680 --> 00:18:20.160 or whether there was really a chance for something, something 279 00:18:20.759 --> 00:18:23.279 good to be made out of this somehow. 280 00:18:26.240 --> 00:18:29.880 Now, in that pursuit, you have to do, as you 281 00:18:29.960 --> 00:18:33.240 talk about an exploration and a full exploration. As a journalist, 282 00:18:33.319 --> 00:18:35.119 you have to talk to as many people as you can. 283 00:18:36.240 --> 00:18:40.799 You say that you were kind of surprised that you 284 00:18:40.960 --> 00:18:45.599 did have a correspondence with John, So tell us how 285 00:18:45.599 --> 00:18:51.839 this came about, and just tell us how what you 286 00:18:51.880 --> 00:18:54.480 did to get him to agree. And then where there's 287 00:18:54.480 --> 00:18:57.839 some conditions, where there's some did he have conditions, did 288 00:18:57.839 --> 00:19:00.559 you have conditions? Tell us just a little bit about 289 00:19:00.559 --> 00:19:04.279 that first beginnings of the correspondence between you two. 290 00:19:06.119 --> 00:19:10.200 Yeah. So I wrote a letter to John. When I 291 00:19:10.240 --> 00:19:12.880 first started writing this book, I was really focused on 292 00:19:12.920 --> 00:19:18.000 the building and then it kind of expanded out from there, 293 00:19:18.119 --> 00:19:22.039 But I was really just focused on the building itself 294 00:19:22.279 --> 00:19:25.920 and kind of the question of its state. And when 295 00:19:25.920 --> 00:19:29.400 I wrote to John, my initial questions for him were 296 00:19:29.480 --> 00:19:35.200 about life inside of this building and what he remembered 297 00:19:35.240 --> 00:19:39.680 about it, and whether he thought of it as a 298 00:19:39.720 --> 00:19:43.319 sort of good place for his family to live or not. 299 00:19:43.640 --> 00:19:46.759 I think when you see the building and when you 300 00:19:46.799 --> 00:19:50.680 see the apartment that they lived in, it's so bleak 301 00:19:50.839 --> 00:19:54.079 that for most of us it seems like a horrible 302 00:19:54.160 --> 00:19:59.920 place to live. And he talked about it with gratitude 303 00:20:00.920 --> 00:20:05.119 and the sense that, you know, his family was happy, 304 00:20:05.319 --> 00:20:10.920 which is I think a complicated issue. Also is the 305 00:20:10.960 --> 00:20:14.359 way that he kind of rewrites his own history and 306 00:20:14.400 --> 00:20:16.680 puts rose colored glasses on a lot of the things 307 00:20:16.720 --> 00:20:23.880 that happened even before the murders occurred. But I wrote 308 00:20:23.920 --> 00:20:29.039 to him, you know, asking a few questions. He wrote 309 00:20:29.119 --> 00:20:33.799 back saying he would answer my questions, but that that 310 00:20:33.880 --> 00:20:38.160 would be the end of our correspondence. And then once 311 00:20:38.319 --> 00:20:42.720 that exchange occurred, I continued writing to him, and he 312 00:20:42.839 --> 00:20:46.920 continued writing back to me for a long time. And 313 00:20:49.559 --> 00:20:53.400 it was sort of surprising at first to get these 314 00:20:53.480 --> 00:20:56.079 letters from him and to see that he was so 315 00:20:56.400 --> 00:20:59.119 willing to talk about things. He had said at the 316 00:20:59.160 --> 00:21:03.720 beginning that he didn't want to talk about the crime itself, 317 00:21:03.920 --> 00:21:07.119 but even that in time he sort of volunteered his 318 00:21:07.240 --> 00:21:10.000 thoughts and feelings about in a way, that was the 319 00:21:10.039 --> 00:21:14.319 part that I was least interested in talking to him about, 320 00:21:14.880 --> 00:21:19.599 because there's just so much documentation available not only of 321 00:21:19.799 --> 00:21:23.480 him testifying about the crimes, but of many other parties 322 00:21:23.880 --> 00:21:28.200 who investigated and analyzed them. So for me, I was 323 00:21:28.240 --> 00:21:33.480 mostly interested in his life, who he was, how a 324 00:21:33.559 --> 00:21:39.200 person from childhood eventually becomes a person who commits a 325 00:21:39.240 --> 00:21:42.400 crime like this, and whether there was any sort of 326 00:21:43.359 --> 00:21:48.519 hope of finding measures that we can look at that 327 00:21:48.640 --> 00:21:52.079 might prevent more of these kinds of things from happening. 328 00:21:52.799 --> 00:21:56.799 There weren't any conditions per se, But one of the 329 00:21:56.799 --> 00:21:59.720 things I was most concerned about was making it very 330 00:21:59.759 --> 00:22:04.000 clear to him that our subject was one of Our 331 00:22:04.079 --> 00:22:07.559 relationship was one of journalists and subjects. And when I 332 00:22:07.599 --> 00:22:10.000 wrote to him, I didn't write him the kinds of 333 00:22:10.079 --> 00:22:14.319 letters that you might expect someone would receive in prison, 334 00:22:14.400 --> 00:22:17.240 letters to keep them entertained or to connect with them 335 00:22:17.279 --> 00:22:20.920 on a sort of human or emotional level. My letters 336 00:22:20.960 --> 00:22:26.000 were really lists of questions that were designed to be 337 00:22:27.039 --> 00:22:30.759 a long term, sort of interview process between me and him. 338 00:22:31.720 --> 00:22:37.440 And you know, there were some moments along the way when, 339 00:22:38.039 --> 00:22:41.759 for example, he asked me for a comic book for 340 00:22:41.880 --> 00:22:45.440 his birthday at one point, and I had to kind 341 00:22:45.480 --> 00:22:49.960 of clarify and drive home the fact that you know, 342 00:22:50.039 --> 00:22:53.759 that didn't really fit in with the relationship that we had, 343 00:22:53.920 --> 00:22:56.920 because I think for someone like him, who you know, 344 00:22:56.960 --> 00:23:00.799 has been around the media covering his case but hadn't 345 00:23:01.079 --> 00:23:07.519 engaged with many journalists before in an interview sense, that 346 00:23:08.079 --> 00:23:11.759 he was still a bit unclear about what that meant. 347 00:23:13.039 --> 00:23:20.839 Yes, now in these letters you encourage him to speak 348 00:23:20.880 --> 00:23:23.279 the way he normally speaks, and so you have these 349 00:23:23.319 --> 00:23:25.400 and you provide these in this One of the more 350 00:23:25.400 --> 00:23:29.720 fascinating parts of the book is this rarely revelationary of 351 00:23:31.839 --> 00:23:34.920 what he reveals in these in these in this correspondence. 352 00:23:36.559 --> 00:23:39.160 Important part of this is the culture that you talk 353 00:23:39.200 --> 00:23:44.319 about as well as the curandissimo probably mispronounced that, but 354 00:23:44.440 --> 00:23:47.839 also how important that was, at least it seemed in 355 00:23:48.160 --> 00:23:53.440 John's life and his mother's life and in his family's life. 356 00:23:53.480 --> 00:23:56.960 So let's talk a little bit about this superstition and 357 00:23:57.119 --> 00:24:00.640 talk about his mother Hilda, and also talk about just 358 00:24:00.720 --> 00:24:02.839 his early life and what you discovered. 359 00:24:05.400 --> 00:24:14.480 Right, So, Curan is this kind of folk healing practice 360 00:24:14.599 --> 00:24:19.640 that I think that the the equivalent people might be 361 00:24:19.720 --> 00:24:24.640 more familiar with is the idea of a medicine man 362 00:24:25.720 --> 00:24:33.119 in uh in our country, that there's a person who 363 00:24:33.240 --> 00:24:39.000 is a healer, who has certain abilities and also certain 364 00:24:40.000 --> 00:24:44.640 herbs and remedies that they dispensed other people. So if 365 00:24:44.680 --> 00:24:50.039 you're going through an illness or depression, or if you're 366 00:24:50.079 --> 00:24:54.759 praying about something, you might seek this person out to 367 00:24:54.839 --> 00:24:59.960 help you. And that's an important part of the col 368 00:25:00.119 --> 00:25:04.000 sure in Brownsville and on this part of the border. 369 00:25:05.599 --> 00:25:09.319 There's also this kind of inverse version of that called brujeria, 370 00:25:09.400 --> 00:25:14.079 which is more equivalent to witchcraft, which is a negative 371 00:25:16.279 --> 00:25:21.680 version of this in which someone is actually cursing other people, 372 00:25:21.880 --> 00:25:26.400 putting the evil eye on them, helping people to maybe 373 00:25:26.440 --> 00:25:31.720 manipulate others in different ways. And so both of these 374 00:25:31.839 --> 00:25:35.880 were present, I think in Hilda and John's lives. Hilda, 375 00:25:35.960 --> 00:25:40.559 John's mother own mother was believed by some in their 376 00:25:40.640 --> 00:25:48.079 family to be a bucha which to practice witchcraft, and 377 00:25:48.599 --> 00:25:51.599 this was something that from a very young age on 378 00:25:52.480 --> 00:25:55.440 sort of saw in his family, and one of the 379 00:25:55.480 --> 00:26:01.839 psychiatrists who evaluated John Hilda found that instead of doing 380 00:26:01.880 --> 00:26:04.079 what she said a good mother might do and kind 381 00:26:04.119 --> 00:26:10.599 of discouraging him from certain suppicious illusions as a young child. 382 00:26:11.240 --> 00:26:13.200 But I think a lot of us have a kid, 383 00:26:14.160 --> 00:26:17.279 maybe we're playing with Aligi board, or we get sort 384 00:26:17.279 --> 00:26:21.240 of nervous about a person in our neighborhood that we 385 00:26:21.359 --> 00:26:25.680 think seems creepy or things like that. Instead of sort 386 00:26:25.680 --> 00:26:29.519 of reassuring him that everything was okay, she kind of 387 00:26:30.000 --> 00:26:35.319 fueled these delusions and belief and that was something that 388 00:26:36.160 --> 00:26:44.880 this psychiatrist believed to eventually turn into grander delusions as 389 00:26:44.920 --> 00:26:45.680 he got older. 390 00:26:46.720 --> 00:26:50.680 From an early age. There he is diagnosed with certain 391 00:26:51.039 --> 00:26:54.440 mental afflictions, and his IQ has been tested at ninety 392 00:26:54.480 --> 00:26:57.000 and you say goes down to seventy two by a 393 00:26:57.039 --> 00:27:01.400 certain fairly young age. There is talk about him not 394 00:27:01.480 --> 00:27:04.640 being able to discern at an early age fantasy from 395 00:27:04.640 --> 00:27:08.440 reality as well. Just tell us a little bit more. 396 00:27:08.480 --> 00:27:11.720 You say that what I thought was fascinating is that 397 00:27:11.920 --> 00:27:15.559 the family is living off this very poor family's living 398 00:27:15.599 --> 00:27:18.519 off the disability that he gets because of his illness. 399 00:27:18.559 --> 00:27:26.000 At one point, Yeah, I think that's one of the questions. Unfortunately, 400 00:27:26.119 --> 00:27:29.279 Hilda did not agree to be interviewed by me, and 401 00:27:29.359 --> 00:27:32.799