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Speaker 6: You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking
Speaker 6: killers in true crime history and the authors that have
Speaker 6: written about them.
Speaker 7: Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK.
Speaker 6: Every week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking
Speaker 6: and infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with
Speaker 6: your host journalist and author Dan Zufanski.
Speaker 7: Good Evening the moment he found out his brother was
Speaker 7: missing and presumed dead, Ted Kirgan launched a relentless effort
Speaker 7: to bring two suspected killers, a teenage prostitute and a
Speaker 7: much older drifter boyfriend, to justice and find Gary Kergan's body.
Speaker 7: Little did he know his quest would consume a fortune
Speaker 7: and take thirty years to reach its dramatic conclusion. Thwarted
Speaker 7: at first by the fact that his brother's body could
Speaker 7: not be located in a New district attorney reluctant to prosecute.
Speaker 7: As a result, Kergan had to keep track of the
Speaker 7: killers from New Orleans notorious French Quarter, to Las Vegas
Speaker 7: and points in between, and wait for a break in
Speaker 7: the case that seemed like it would never come. Then,
Speaker 7: nearly thirty years later, science detective work and especially a
Speaker 7: brother's love and tenacity would combine for a resolution that
Speaker 7: would end in a dramatic trial in which one of
Speaker 7: the killer's diary would be a star witness. The book
Speaker 7: they were featuring this evening is My Brother's Keeper, a
Speaker 7: thirty year quest to bring two killers to justice, with
Speaker 7: my special guest, journalist and author Chris us Soul Blackwood.
Speaker 7: Welcome to the program, and thank you very much for
Speaker 7: greeing to this interview. Chris Russel Blackwood.
Speaker 4: Thanks so much, Dan, I'm so happy to be all
Speaker 4: with you tonight.
Speaker 7: Thank you very much again. Congratulations on an incredible book,
Speaker 7: My Brother's Keeper. Just before we jump right into this
Speaker 7: very very involved and incredible story, tell us how you
Speaker 7: came to be involved with this book and My Brother's Keeper.
Speaker 4: Well, when the suspects were rearrested in twenty twelve. At
Speaker 4: that time, I was having lunch with a close friend
Speaker 4: who was actually on the inside of the investigation along
Speaker 4: with Ted Kurgan. She was actually working with him as
Speaker 4: a public relations executive. She started telling me little details
Speaker 4: about these rearrests, although she couldn't tell me a whole lot.
Speaker 4: There was a lot of confidential information and I just
Speaker 4: became totally intrigued, and from that moment on, I was hooked,
Speaker 4: and I became her confidant and got more and more
Speaker 4: involved on the side of the story, and you know,
Speaker 4: it just consumed a good part of my life for
Speaker 4: the following years.
Speaker 7: Absolutely understandable. Now you talk about the early life of
Speaker 7: Gary and his brother, Ted Kergan, and you start off
Speaker 7: with a story just to demonstrate the closeness of the brothers,
Speaker 7: but also something that happened to Ted early on. Anything,
Speaker 7: you talk about the role that Gary took on after that.
Speaker 7: So tell us just a little bit about the early
Speaker 7: life of Ted and Gary Kergan. Where they grew up.
Speaker 7: You talk about Detroit, So tell us a little bit
Speaker 7: about this incident and a little bit about their early life.
Speaker 7: Introduced these two extraordinary people.
Speaker 4: Sure, Ted and Gary grew up in suburban Detroit. Ted's
Speaker 4: father died when he was one year old, so Gary
Speaker 4: assumed the role of the family patriarch as a very
Speaker 4: young boy who was four years older than Ted. Their
Speaker 4: mother made her living as a seamstress, and they were
Speaker 4: so very close. Ted actually was injured in a bicycle
Speaker 4: accident when he was like eight years old, and Gary,
Speaker 4: you know stated his bedside. They had paper roots together.
Speaker 4: They always they did an attic bedroom project together. They
Speaker 4: were always working together. They were uper close, with Gary
Speaker 4: being his protector, always looking out for Ted.
Speaker 7: Now you fast forward a little bit and we'll come
Speaker 7: back to some of the accounts of some of the
Speaker 7: things that these people did together before they became really
Speaker 7: successful business people. But then you fast forward to this
Speaker 7: chain of Sonic drive ins and you tell about the
Speaker 7: brothers set to sign an agreement. So tell us where
Speaker 7: they are later in life and as business partners, and
Speaker 7: what kind of business they're in. Tell us a little
Speaker 7: bit about the situation that they that you talk about
Speaker 7: that they were set to sign some agreements. Tell us
Speaker 7: what was going on at that time with these two brothers.
Speaker 4: Kirgan moved to Louisiana to become a Sonic driving franchise
Speaker 4: e and Ted followed him. Here. They were on the
Speaker 4: verge of a huge Sonic expansion development agreement when Gary
Speaker 4: went missing. They had gotten verbal agreements from the banks.
Speaker 4: That day. Gary had gotten it for their loan to
Speaker 4: move forward, and Ted was at home waiting for Gary
Speaker 4: to come and discuss this with him. And there were
Speaker 4: It was a very exciting time in their lives. Everything
Speaker 4: was seemed to be going their way. Uh, they were,
Speaker 4: you know, on the verge of like I said, opening
Speaker 4: restaurants in the New Orleans and Hammond area in South Louisiana,
Speaker 4: a big, big expansion for them. So it was a
Speaker 4: very exciting time. Gary was the sort of the charismatic
Speaker 4: leader of the two while Ted was more of the
Speaker 4: nuts and bolts person working in the business. They had
Speaker 4: a very very close relationship. As I mentioned before, They
Speaker 4: spoke in their own little shorthand language. They spoke a
Speaker 4: dozen times a day, and so Ted was very excited
Speaker 4: as he waited for Gary to come home that evening
Speaker 4: and tell him about what was going on the latest
Speaker 4: with the bank development. And then Garry never showed up.
Speaker 7: Yeah, you talk about Also Gary's wife, her name was Susie,
Speaker 7: and she was called or if she called, and she
Speaker 7: was concerned. So tell us what they do. Immediately they're
Speaker 7: in the Katia Parish. So tell us what Ted does
Speaker 7: and Susie does, and what's their next move.
Speaker 4: Well, Gary had last been heard from. He was in
Speaker 4: Baton Rouge, which is about fifty miles from the Lafayette area.
Speaker 4: The Acadiana area. They had an office here in Baton
Speaker 4: Rouge of an apartment office that they were using his
Speaker 4: headquarters for the development expansions, and so they were expecting
Speaker 4: him to come home. Gary never ever, didn't come home
Speaker 4: without calling. So as soon as the morning came, she
Speaker 4: called Ted to see if Ted had heard from She
Speaker 4: was very very upset. Of course, we're talking about November
Speaker 4: nineteen eighty four, so there were no cell phones there,
Speaker 4: there were no GPS, there was nothing, you know, no
Speaker 4: way to really get in touch. There was no answer
Speaker 4: at the landline of the apartment. So basically Ted knows
Speaker 4: he has to get in his car and looks and
Speaker 4: the first place he goes is to visit the Acadia
Speaker 4: pair of sheriff who is a friend of theirs Ken Goss,
Speaker 4: who talks him into you know, tells him what he
Speaker 4: needs to do, that he needs to go to Baton Rouge.
Speaker 4: There's no missing person report for twenty four hours that
Speaker 4: could be filed. They do put an ap B out
Speaker 4: on Gary's Cadillac El Dorado, but that's about all they
Speaker 4: can do. And then Ted gets in his car and
Speaker 4: drives to that Ruge to be in the thirch, having
Speaker 4: no idea where Gary might be.
Speaker 7: Now immediately, especially on the verge as a reader, and
Speaker 7: I think as anyone, even Ted would think that there
Speaker 7: might be something to this, on the verge of this
Speaker 7: big business deal. He thinks back to these partners were
Speaker 7: that they had previously they split up the Sonic Restaurants
Speaker 7: in nineteen seventy nine, and the animosity lingered, you said,
Speaker 7: between Gary and Mitch Gravelly and the other two brothers,
Speaker 7: and so you talk about that. He thought that there
Speaker 7: might be something to that, and as a result he
Speaker 7: had mentioned or he had remembered what Mitch Gravelly had
Speaker 7: said in terms of a nightclub that he had introduced
Speaker 7: him to. So tell us how this again information leads
Speaker 7: to another lead.
Speaker 4: That's why many things where of course we're swirling through
Speaker 4: Ted's mind at the time, who Gary may have been with,
Speaker 4: who he talked to. He goes and searches all over
Speaker 4: bat Rouge, and he is he is desperate when he
Speaker 4: recalls a nightclub that one of their business partners, Mitch Graveley,
Speaker 4: brought him to, and it also brought Gary to on
Speaker 4: separate occasions. They have not been there together. So we're talking,
Speaker 4: you know, more than a day into this desperate search
Speaker 4: all over bat Rouge and you know Ted. But before
Speaker 4: he goes to the club, he actually goes to a
Speaker 4: real estate closing that Gary was supposed to attend. Gary
Speaker 4: was moving his family as part of the business expansion,
Speaker 4: and this is a huge moment for Ted because he
Speaker 4: knows that no matter what, Gary is going to show
Speaker 4: up at that closing if he's at all able. And
Speaker 4: so when Ted arrives for the closing and Gary never shows,
Speaker 4: it's at that moment that Ted breaks down because he
Speaker 4: knows that something is very, very wrong and that he
Speaker 4: is never going to see Gary again. So he's had
Speaker 4: this huge crossroads and he decides that he's not going
Speaker 4: to let his family become a victim. And that's when
Speaker 4: he really gets goes into action. Things remembering the Gravelly
Speaker 4: brothers in places that they might have been, and he
Speaker 4: remembers this club called the Night Spot, which is the
Speaker 4: opposite direction from their home, but he knew that that
Speaker 4: they had both been there on separate occasions. So he
Speaker 4: drives here. It's late on Friday evening. Gary had been
Speaker 4: missing since early Thursday morning. It's late on Friday evening
Speaker 4: when he enters this bar and one of the dancers
Speaker 4: greets them with Hello Gary, and he stunned because even
Speaker 4: though he's taller and heavier, surely there's a family resemblance.
Speaker 4: But you know, he knows that his brother is pretty
Speaker 4: well known there, obviously if dancers calling him by name.
Speaker 4: So he asks to see the manager and it's taken
Speaker 4: to Dorothy McGee. She and her husband Gary McGee owned
Speaker 4: the club, and although Dorothy's pretty tight lipped, she does
Speaker 4: tell him that his brother was indeed there late Wednesday night,
Speaker 4: early Thursday morning, and bet he left with a dancer
Speaker 4: named Erica. So I mean Ted. As I said in
Speaker 4: the book, Ted is excited and frightened all at once
Speaker 4: because he's hit Peter, so to speak, when it was
Speaker 4: literally a needle in a haystack that he would have
Speaker 4: found a lead on where his brother had left been seen.
Speaker 4: So he immediately the information to the detective.
Speaker 7: With this dogged search he can he continued, He continues
Speaker 7: this investigation while you say that Baton Rouge police are
Speaker 7: finally on the job with a couple of detectives, Bob
Speaker 7: Hole and Ri Thompson. But like you say in the book,
Speaker 7: this is an incredible relationship that Ted has with these
Speaker 7: investigators because he has been an honorary deputy. Him and Gary,
Speaker 7: so they are pretty tight in terms of gaining information.
Speaker 7: It seemed unusual or not typical that they would be
Speaker 7: so involved and they would have Ted so employed to
Speaker 7: be involved in this search as well.
Speaker 4: Well. He immediately gained respect when he located the night
Speaker 4: spot because he found where Gary had last been seen,
Speaker 4: So the two deputies Hal and Thompson immediately had this
Speaker 4: respect for him. He also had the sheriff's badge, so
Speaker 4: he was an honorary sheriff and he did have a badge.
Speaker 4: And thirdly, as the investigation was going on, he actually
Speaker 4: saw the mayor and in a very unusual exchange, the
Speaker 4: mayor asked him for a contribution to barbecue of campaign contribution,
Speaker 4: which Ted complied, and even though the barbecue had already
Speaker 4: taken place, Ted made's contribution and he but then on.
Speaker 4: He had a desk at the police station, so he
Speaker 4: did have unusual access. But this is Ted Krgan is
Speaker 4: a very unusual man, a very determined, perseverant man.
Speaker 7: Hellent, Hello, I'm sorry we got disconnected there for a moment.
Speaker 7: I'm back. Tell us how Gary finds and the police
Speaker 7: find out about a person named Ron Dunnagaan Again it's
Speaker 7: from Ted's search of these nightclubs that he stumbles across
Speaker 7: upon this. But tell us how he gets this information
Speaker 7: and what information does he get about this Ron done again?
Speaker 4: Well, first off, they they Ted found that he left
Speaker 4: with a dancer named Erica. Her real name was Lilah
Speaker 4: Mala Gary McGee. The club owner had a license with
Speaker 4: her name, so from that they were able to determine
Speaker 4: that she lived with a man named Ron Dunnagan on
Speaker 4: Byron Street, which was just a few blocks away from
Speaker 4: the club. So this was within another twenty four hours,
Speaker 4: so they were able to find out that address. Ted
Speaker 4: met the detectives there and as they waited for the
Speaker 4: landlord to arrive. Again, he's not knowing if his brother
Speaker 4: is inside, if he's dead or alive, and so he
Speaker 4: is just he's kicking an air conditioning unit. He's frantic
Speaker 4: and they're waiting for the landlord to show up with keys.
Speaker 4: When the landlord shows up, the detectives go in. First,
Speaker 4: they discover blood, They discover signs of a struggle in
Speaker 4: the duplex bedroom, and they know they know that there
Speaker 4: that you know there has been a serious struggle struggle
Speaker 4: there at the Duplex on Byron Street, just blocks away
Speaker 4: from the nightclub where Gary was last seen with this
Speaker 4: dancer Erica aka Lila Molla, and so her boyfriend. From
Speaker 4: police reports from the club owners, her boyfriend's name was
Speaker 4: Ronald Dunagan, and they began to look for both of them.
Speaker 4: A material witness warrant is issued for Lilah because she
Speaker 4: was the last person seen with Gary Kergan at the
Speaker 4: same time. A couple of days later, Gary's carr late
Speaker 4: model Cadillac El Dorado was reported in a parking lot
Speaker 4: in suburban New Orleans. The car had actually been there
Speaker 4: since Thursday morning, a few hours after the murder, but
Speaker 4: the owner of the business reported it several days later
Speaker 4: when no one came to claim it. The bat Police
Speaker 4: detectives traveled to New Orleans and brought the car back
Speaker 4: to the State Police lab in Baton Ridge, where the
Speaker 4: trunk was opened and there was a huge pool of
Speaker 4: coagulated blood, lots and lots of the blood in the
Speaker 4: trunk of that car. And Ted Kurgan was also there
Speaker 4: when they opened the trunk of the car at the
Speaker 4: State police lab.
Speaker 7: And he asked the question, I guess he's stunned, and
Speaker 7: he asked the question, what does all this blood mean?
Speaker 7: And what was the response from the police.
Speaker 4: Yes, because when I spoke to Ted about it, you know,
Speaker 4: he talked about, you see that horrible site, but you
Speaker 4: really don't know what it means. You see it, but
Speaker 4: you don't see it. And the person at the state
Speaker 4: police lab told him that it meant someone had died
Speaker 4: in the trunk of the car, there was that much blood.
Speaker 4: So after that horrible site, Ted had was charged with
Speaker 4: going back home to the lab the area to tell
Speaker 4: Gary's wife, Susie, their son Wade, who had just his
Speaker 4: mother in those assembled at Susie's house, that Gary was
Speaker 4: most likely dead and would not be you know, he
Speaker 4: would not They would not see Gary again. And at
Speaker 4: that time, you know, Ted's whole life had already been
Speaker 4: turned upside down. But then but now he's at this
Speaker 4: huge point in his life where he's no longer the follower,
Speaker 4: He's now the family patriarch. And everyone had looked to
Speaker 4: Gary to make all the decisions and now he's put
Speaker 4: in that place. And it was, as he said, the
Speaker 4: worst day of his life.
Speaker 7: You talk about that. Police believe that the couple are
Speaker 7: heading to San Diego. But police get a call from
Speaker 7: Las Vegas. Tell us what happens and how the what
Speaker 7: happens and how they apprehend the two of them.
Speaker 4: Yes, they had forwarded their male to of San Diego.
Speaker 4: That's why they assumed they would find him there. However,
Speaker 4: because of the material witness warrant, when Lila Molla went
Speaker 4: to the Clark County Detention Center in Las Vegas to
Speaker 4: apply for a dancer's license, it was flagged. You know,
Speaker 4: there was flag that she was wanted in Baton Rouge, Louisiana.
Speaker 4: So they called the Batanoge detective and told them that
Speaker 4: they could only hold her for twenty four hours. Meanwhile,
Speaker 4: they also discover a very minor warrant outstanding warrant for
Speaker 4: Ronald Dunnagan, and he stumbled into the Clark County Detention
Speaker 4: Center looking for her because he's been waiting in the car,
Speaker 4: and they hold him too. They arrest him. Now they,
Speaker 4: as I said, they can only hold them both for
Speaker 4: twenty four hours. So Batlou's detectives starts scrambling because they
Speaker 4: don't know how they're going to get to Las Vegas,
Speaker 4: and so they basked Ted what he can do. And
Speaker 4: you know, Ted is thirty years old. He's a you know,
Speaker 4: he's a successful businessman, but certainly not not uber rich
Speaker 4: or anything. But he remembers, he remembers pulling out the
Speaker 4: Yellow Pages seeing an ad for lear Jet and actually
Speaker 4: calling the person who was in New Orleans and you know,
Speaker 4: talking to her and actually rinning the lear Jet on
Speaker 4: his American Express cards. That would bring both Ted Ted
Speaker 4: and the two detectives to Las Vegas to question Lylah
Speaker 4: and Ron. So they do get there in time to
Speaker 4: question both of them in Las Vegas, and at that time,
Speaker 4: Lilah gives the first of several confessions.
Speaker 7: Let's balco both. Let's talk about what she says in
Speaker 7: that confession, because this is going to be important and
Speaker 7: live and she's going to live with those statements forever.
Speaker 4: Lilah said that she brought Gary back to the apartment.
Speaker 4: They were they were, you know, heavy. She says that
Speaker 4: they had sex and that Ron Done Again actually killed
Speaker 4: him and if they wanted more information, they would have
Speaker 4: to speak to Ron done Again. And that's basically what
Speaker 4: she said the first time that she confessed it was
Speaker 4: an accident, but that Ron killed him.
Speaker 7: Now, what do police do with this first confession? And
Speaker 7: you talk about this first confession, She doesn't ask for
Speaker 7: a lawyer, so they speak to her as long as
Speaker 7: she feels like speaking with them. When they talked to Ron,
Speaker 7: done again, what is the result from that interview.
Speaker 4: Well, he acknowledges that he knew Gary Kergan, and that
Speaker 4: Gary Kergan was indeed at their duplex on Byron Street
Speaker 4: early hours of that morning, and that according to Ron,
Speaker 4: he was looking for some kind of rupt sex and
Speaker 4: that Ron ran him off, and that the last time
Speaker 4: he saw Gary Kergan he was headed to New Orleans
Speaker 4: in his Cadillac. And that was one's story at that
Speaker 4: time in Las Vegas.
Speaker 7: Now, is there any grounds for search warrants and tell
Speaker 7: us about what's found that with the warrant at the apartment.
Speaker 4: Yes, they do search. Among the there were guns and ammunitions,
Speaker 4: but also some of the most valuable things they found
Speaker 4: were La Lamla's diaries. She had several diaries. Some were
Speaker 4: about health and fitness, but some were very pointed and
Speaker 4: talked about a lot of details. In the month they
Speaker 4: spent in Baton Rouge, the month of November nineteen eighty four,
Speaker 4: that they when they moved from New Orleans to Baton
Speaker 4: Rouge and what they did with their time there. It
Speaker 4: was very, very interesting. They talked about practicing with animals,
Speaker 4: and Gary's name comes up in the diary several times.
Speaker 4: She talks about him as a trick. She talks about
Speaker 4: him giving her good money. She documents them her money
Speaker 4: in the diary. But the most chilling thing that she
Speaker 4: says in the diary is hit Gary next time. And
Speaker 4: she also refers to him in the diary as sonic Gary.
Speaker 4: It was a real treasure troven. Actually, those diaries were
Speaker 4: found in a drawer by Ted Kirgan, who was in
Speaker 4: the apartment during the search in Las Vegas. Wow.
Speaker 7: Along with the entries that seem to be incriminating and
Speaker 7: certainly very very interesting and not completely known what they
Speaker 7: can completely mean, they also are a portrait of this teenager,
Speaker 7: you say, obsessed with their looks and so some other
Speaker 7: things are in that diary too that point to her character,
Speaker 7: don't they.
Speaker 4: Yes, And point to the fact that she was the
Speaker 4: dominant person in the couple, which was hard to believe
Speaker 4: because here she was she was nineteen years old Ron Dunnigan,
Speaker 4: her boyfriend was thirty six, yet she was the one
Speaker 4: her entry stay. Try not to be too bossy. They
Speaker 4: talk about the things that she wants to do. It
Speaker 4: it's very much. It's very obvious that she's in control.
Speaker 4: And although she would try to say at some point
Speaker 4: that she was a slave to Ron Dunnagan, she was
Speaker 4: able to go home to Ohio a couple of times.
Speaker 4: So it seems pretty evident from reading the diary that
Speaker 4: she was the person in charge and the mastermind behind
Speaker 4: what went on and what happened to Gary Kirkany.
Speaker 7: What they also find very interesting inside his chest is
Speaker 7: a clown costume and items that would be used in
Speaker 7: magic tricks. So what do they determine from this and
Speaker 7: a little bit of research.
Speaker 4: Yes, well, Ronald done Again actually made his living when
Speaker 4: he lived in New Orleans in the early nineteen eighties
Speaker 4: and before that in Las Vegas as a costumed clown.
Speaker 4: He made balloon animals for children in the in Jackson
Speaker 4: Square in New Orleans. You know, he was a casino
Speaker 4: barker in Las Vegas, so and he did magic tricks.
Speaker 4: He was very proud of his career, so to speak
Speaker 4: to the clown. So yes, Ron Dunagan, you know, in
Speaker 4: another inside of his personality, he was he is a
Speaker 4: paranoid schizophrenic and he worked as a costumes clown. So
Speaker 4: they made a very talk.
Speaker 7: About a couple. Certainly you also talk about During questioning,
Speaker 7: Ron said something very I guess telling and also interesting.
Speaker 7: He said to police, how do you know he just
Speaker 7: didn't leave town or run off? You don't have a body,
Speaker 7: do you.
Speaker 4: Yeah? That statement, that statement became a key in trying
Speaker 4: to get a better look inside of who Ron's done again.
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Speaker 4: It was because it could be taken on several different levels.
Speaker 4: You don't have a body, do you is he Was
Speaker 4: he a smart criminal who realized he definitively disposed of
Speaker 4: that body and that no one would find it, or
Speaker 4: was he seriously just trying to find out did you
Speaker 4: find the body? So it was you know, as part
Speaker 4: of this discovery, especially after the cold case uh with
Speaker 4: back you know, back on with trying to find out
Speaker 4: just who Ron Dunnigan was. And that statement was very
Speaker 4: chilling because at the time one didn't know did he
Speaker 4: know he disposed of the body well enough that it
Speaker 4: wouldn't be found or was he sincerely asking the question
Speaker 4: did you find the body?
Speaker 7: Right now? You also talk about that the charger for
Speaker 7: first degree murder and along with Dunnigan, and then you
Speaker 7: go into what they find about Layla when she was
Speaker 7: born in opscale surroundings in kent, Ohio. Tell us how
Speaker 7: she made her way to New Orleans and a little
Speaker 7: bit about her life with the prominent doctor and housewife mother.
Speaker 4: Yes, sure, Lila was the youngest of six children. Her
Speaker 4: father was a prominent obd yn in Ken, Ohio. She
Speaker 4: was a symphony violin, a track star, and a high
Speaker 4: school honor student. And then sometimes during her senior year
Speaker 4: she has substance abuse issues and her parents cart her
Speaker 4: off to an in house rehab facility and eventually she
Speaker 4: goes to a halfway house in cleeveand Land. It's from
Speaker 4: the halfway house in Cleveland she escapes and makes her
Speaker 4: way down to New Orleans sometime in nineteen eighty three,
Speaker 4: and she lives briefly there with another man, and after
Speaker 4: he moves away from New Orleans, she literally ended up
Speaker 4: on the doorsteps of Ronald Dunnaghan and at that time
Speaker 4: he was, as I mentioned, worked as a clown, but
Speaker 4: also worked in a porn shop in the New Orleans
Speaker 4: French Quarter. And then she turned to dancing and prostitution,
Speaker 4: and they that's what she was doing in the French
Speaker 4: Quarter at the time. But as I mentioned, she returned
Speaker 4: to Ken a couple of times to see family to
Speaker 4: attend the wedding. So it was obviously that she was
Speaker 4: moving around freely and not under his control. But she
Speaker 4: did have a carefully upbringing.
Speaker 7: At this point too. She really she puts in her
Speaker 7: and she believes and she tells people that one day
Speaker 7: she will be family a model, an actress, or even
Speaker 7: a writer. And she really enjoyed the stage.
Speaker 4: You say, yeah, she did. She is definitely has a
Speaker 4: narcissistic personality. In her diary, very interesting. She talks about
Speaker 4: wanting to be loved by men and women alike, and
Speaker 4: you know, her fantasies, as you say, of being a
Speaker 4: model and actress. She was using bat Rouge as a
Speaker 4: stepping stone to rob and murder and move on to
Speaker 4: California where she thought she would become a model and
Speaker 4: actress a writer. So she had this narcissistic, magical way
Speaker 4: of thinking that was, you know, that propelled them to
Speaker 4: rob and murder to move on.
Speaker 7: Now back to the police response and the first degree
Speaker 7: murder charges. We alluded to that there was a problem
Speaker 7: with not having a body. So tell us what Ted
Speaker 7: and what Ted does too, because we've got to start
Speaker 7: talking about what group, what plan Ted puts into play,
Speaker 7: and also the group that he assembles to help him.
Speaker 4: So, I mean Ted spent much time looking. He in
Speaker 4: lists the help of wildlife and fisheries. There are planes,
Speaker 4: there are people in boats. He has one hundred thousand
Speaker 4: dollars reward out there for information he's hoping to He
Speaker 4: does everything. I mean, they look for the body up
Speaker 4: and down the expressway and byous it was an all
Speaker 4: out search along with the reward. They took calls for
Speaker 4: several months, but were never able to uncover Gary's body.
Speaker 4: So since there was no body, there was a change
Speaker 4: in the guard of the District Attorney's office. A longtime
Speaker 4: district attorney who insisted he would prosecute the case was defeated.
Speaker 4: The new district attorney came in decided that there was
Speaker 4: Since there was nobody, he would not go forward with
Speaker 4: the prosecution, much to Ted's amazement because everything he had
Speaker 4: been told was that they would go forward with the
Speaker 4: prosecution because of the other evidence that they had. So
Speaker 4: it was a huge blow to Ted. In March of
Speaker 4: nineteen eighty five when the DA's office decided to drop
Speaker 4: the case and they were released from East Batley's Pairs
Speaker 4: prison and with their separate ways.
Speaker 7: What you talk about, too is a very interesting thing.
Speaker 7: We didn't mention that. In the search too, they find
Speaker 7: this mysterious map. I told us what the map portrays
Speaker 7: and what Ted and his group tried to do with
Speaker 7: that map.
Speaker 4: The map was a very interesting piece of evidence. On
Speaker 4: one side it depicted a levee with trees and notations
Speaker 4: of trash, and in the middle it's a it's a
Speaker 4: notebook paper torn out with ragged edges. In the middle
Speaker 4: of the page there's a big bullbye and that's on
Speaker 4: one side. On the other side of the paper, there's
Speaker 4: a road. There are two levees and a road and
Speaker 4: a building. There's mention of a light gray Cadillac. There's
Speaker 4: mention of a swerve sign. So it's a very detailed map,
Speaker 4: and many people have tried to interpret the map and
Speaker 4: try to figure out where in the Batlouge locale, or
Speaker 4: between Batloosh and New Orleans where the car was found,
Speaker 4: where this location might be. Ted finds a group called
Speaker 4: Texas Equisearch headed by Tim Miller. It's a group who searches,
Speaker 4: which searches for missing people, missing and deceased people. And
Speaker 4: Tim Miller, who's the CEO, lost his own daughter who
Speaker 4: was murdered and so he began this nonprofit. Tim Miller
Speaker 4: actually came down. They used this map to thought it
Speaker 4: was because of the of similar buildings and the way
Speaker 4: the levies were drawn. And they actually conducted an all
Speaker 4: out dig for the body of Gary Kergan in April
Speaker 4: well and actually in March of the following well, this
Speaker 4: would have been after obviously, this would have been after
Speaker 4: the cold case was resurrection. But they actually did an
Speaker 4: all out dig for the body then, but that was
Speaker 4: again like twenty thirteen I believe. And this, although the
Speaker 4: body was not uncovered, it led to a lot of
Speaker 4: attention for the case and happened right before laylah Malla
Speaker 4: was to be arraigned. So it was, it was. It
Speaker 4: was quite quite a spectacle, and it also led to
Speaker 4: Tim Miller befriending Ronald Dunnagan, one of the murderers. I
Speaker 4: tell another story, but yes, yes, the map was used
Speaker 4: later on as a as a place to look for
Speaker 4: Gary Cargan's body.
Speaker 7: There was some very interesting things along the way. When
Speaker 7: Gary's wife Susie is called and somebody says, yeah, he
Speaker 7: knows where to find Gary's body. So tell us a
Speaker 7: little bit about this and what had happened. As you say,
Speaker 7: the one hundred thousand dollars reward that Ted had offered
Speaker 7: had been taken, had been withdrawn months before, so it
Speaker 7: was very interesting this person was asking for money. Tell
Speaker 7: us about what he said and what happened.
Speaker 4: Yes, sins, he called Ted. This was for the summer.
Speaker 4: So a few months after the case had been had
Speaker 4: been dropped, and she was very upset because a man
Speaker 4: had called her and said that he knew a lot
Speaker 4: about the case. He knew where to find Gary's body.
Speaker 4: And so Ted called person who I'll call the confidential informant,
Speaker 4: and this person said he had been in daily contact
Speaker 4: with Lila Molla during the year after the murders. He
Speaker 4: was seeking that hundred thousand dollars reward money, which again
Speaker 4: had been withdrawn. And so Ted consulted the police and
Speaker 4: they decided to set a trap for the informant so
Speaker 4: they would say, could record what he would tell Ted.
Speaker 4: And since the competential informant had gone directly to Ted
Speaker 4: instead of to the authorities, that recording whatever he had
Speaker 4: to say would force the informant to go on the
Speaker 4: record with his information. So Ted mets this informant at
Speaker 4: a hotel room in suburban New Orleans where next door
Speaker 4: police detectives were watching and recording everything. The confidential informant
Speaker 4: tells Ted that Lilah told him that she poisoned Gary
Speaker 4: Kergan with tainted wine and that Ron then dismembered him
Speaker 4: and put the pieces in garbage bags and distributed them
Speaker 4: all around the area. And so Ted is just done
Speaker 4: because this is you know, this, this part about the
Speaker 4: poisonous memberment is news to him. Then the confidential informant
Speaker 4: actually leads the detectives to a hotel across the street
Speaker 4: from where Gary Kergan's bar car was found, you know,
Speaker 4: a few days after the murder. As he led him
Speaker 4: to this hotel as one of the places where the
Speaker 4: dumpsters were located. And this is incredible since this person
Speaker 4: had never even been to New Orleans, so he was
Speaker 4: indecredible he was. Afterwards, Ted found out that this informant
Speaker 4: had definitely spent almost every day for months with La
Speaker 4: lamballa so very credible person.
Speaker 7: Also, Gary's car was found across the street from the
Speaker 7: Landmark hotel.
Speaker 4: That's correct, and this idea, yeah, the dumpsters were. The
Speaker 4: dumpster where he led them to was at the Landmark Hotel,
Speaker 4: having never been there before in his life, so it
Speaker 4: was it was incredible. Yeah, definitely.
Speaker 7: Now you talk about where, sorry, you talk about where
Speaker 7: Leela spent most of nineteen eighty five in Atlanta. What
Speaker 7: was she doing and how was she faring.
Speaker 4: Well? A lot of it. Spent most of that year
Speaker 4: in a in a mental hospital there. She herself told
Speaker 4: me that she was not doing well, needed to to
Speaker 4: to regroup, and that was you know. She did spend
Speaker 4: most of the year there, then returned to ken Ohio
Speaker 4: and she resumed dancing and prostitution, but she would go
Speaker 4: on and marry, become a mother, and divorce. She obtained
Speaker 4: a nursing degree and worked as a nurse for years.
Speaker 4: So she went up after the year in the mental hospital.
Speaker 7: She h.
Speaker 4: Lived her life a lot of the same things that
Speaker 4: she had done before, with the dancing, of prostitution, the manipulation.
Speaker 4: There was a lot of that's been going on in
Speaker 4: her life, but she she went her own way and
Speaker 4: lived a fairly normal life. She did a massive series
Speaker 4: of blogs during that time, proclaiming herself an event planner
Speaker 4: and happiness advocate, and Ted Kirgan was was following along
Speaker 4: with all this and he couldn't figure out for a
Speaker 4: long time, but then realized that the online presence that
Speaker 4: she was a mounting was mounting pushed down the mention
Speaker 4: of her name in connection with Arry Kergan's murder. There
Speaker 4: was a website called the Charlie Project, and it was
Speaker 4: on that website. So all of these blogs and mentions
Speaker 4: were served to push that further and further down when
Speaker 4: people searched her name. Ronald Dune again in the meantime,
Speaker 4: stayed in North Louisiana and sometime in Las Vegas. He
Speaker 4: was pretty much in the same place. Returned to Bows
Speaker 4: your city and lived on disability. He sometimes lived in
Speaker 4: pay by the week hotel, sometimes with family. He even
Speaker 4: lived in home with shelters. So this is the two
Speaker 4: what the two were doing and the ensuing twenty eight
Speaker 4: years after they were released from prison.
Speaker 7: And you say they had no contact with each other
Speaker 7: whatsoever during.
Speaker 4: That time, they did not. They did not speak to
Speaker 4: one another.
Speaker 7: We are going to talk about Larry Tucker and his
Speaker 7: daughter Memory Tucker tell us just before we stop for
Speaker 7: a break, about Larry tucker relationship with Gary in the beginning,
Speaker 7: because you talk about you have a story where Larry
Speaker 7: sees a name on a card named Erica, and he
Speaker 7: says something to Gary early on, tell us about that,
Speaker 7: and tell us about the relationship Larry Tucker has with
Speaker 7: the Kurgans, and to tell us a little bit about
Speaker 7: Memory Tucker and what she is becoming and following in
Speaker 7: her father's footsteps.
Speaker 4: One of the first people that Ted called when Gary
Speaker 4: went missing was Larry Tucker. He was a business partner
Speaker 4: in their sonic agreement. He was also a very very
Speaker 4: good friend of Gary Kergan's and he was also officed
Speaker 4: out of their same apartment office in bat Riuge. And
Speaker 4: one night he came home, Larry came home to the
Speaker 4: apartment in that ridge and I'm the piece of paper
Speaker 4: with Erica's name and phone number on it. And he
Speaker 4: confronted Gary about it, and Gary said, thank you. You
Speaker 4: probably saved me from going out of my wife. And
Speaker 4: you know, they had drinks that night and Larry Tucker
Speaker 4: went off to sleep. The next morning he realized that
Speaker 4: the paper was gone from the waste basket and that
Speaker 4: Gary had not spent the night here. So he's trying
Speaker 4: to put this puzzle together as Ted's calling him and saying,
Speaker 4: Gary he's missing. I don't know who he's where he's been,
Speaker 4: I don't know what could have happened to him. And
Speaker 4: so this is going through Larry Tucker's mind after he
Speaker 4: talks to Ted, who is Erica, And as we later
Speaker 4: found out, Erica is one of Lilah Mala's stage names.
Speaker 4: And she lured Gary to that club that night because
Speaker 4: as Gary and I mean Ted and Larry had both
Speaker 4: spoken Gary, he said he was feeling sick and was
Speaker 4: going home. So they were both you know, surprised as
Speaker 4: they could be, that he didn't do that because he
Speaker 4: was thought he had the flu even and instead was
Speaker 4: lured to the club. So Larry Tucker, as a close friend,
Speaker 4: was was heavily involved in for Gary along with Ted
Speaker 4: when he was first missing and in keeping up with,
Speaker 4: you know, all of the events of the case and
Speaker 4: then as it was all going down. They lived in
Speaker 4: North the Tuckers lived in North, Mississippi, and his daughter
Speaker 4: Memory remembers her dad Larry pacing, pacing in the kitchen
Speaker 4: talking about the murder and the body, you know, where
Speaker 4: the body might be and and she watched this from
Speaker 4: the staircase and in the back of her mind this
Speaker 4: is what propelled her to a career in law enforcement,
Speaker 4: and she became a sheriff's deputy and later a victim's
Speaker 4: advocate uh for the the office because of hearing about
Speaker 4: Gary Kirgan's murder all of her life. But she was very,
Speaker 4: very surprised call in twenty twelve, twenty eight years after
Speaker 4: Gary Kirgan was murdered, and a fellow detective asked her
Speaker 4: if she knew Larry Tucker, and she says, Larry Tucker's
Speaker 4: my dad. Yes, I know Larry Tucker. And that's when
Speaker 4: they told her that they were looking at cold cases
Speaker 4: to reopen Battery's Police had been given a grant to
Speaker 4: open a cold case division. They had a stack of
Speaker 4: cases they were looking at. In this case, the one
Speaker 4: they called Sonic Gary, they were looking at and came
Speaker 4: upon all this information and the name Larry Tucker, and
Speaker 4: memory Tucker was stunned. She was a girl at the time,
Speaker 4: as I mentioned, she did not even know that Gary
Speaker 4: was murdered in bat Luge. She thought perhaps he was
Speaker 4: murdered closer to where they lived in the Lafayette area,
Speaker 4: and she became immediately became involved in the case, trying
Speaker 4: to help put the pizzas together, so that that was
Speaker 4: the case they selected to reopen and go forward with.
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Speaker 7: to cook. Now, we talked about Memory Tucker and Ted Kergan,
Speaker 7: Larry Tucker's daughter, and then she becomes an investigator, has
Speaker 7: an investigator role with the DA Assistant DA prem Burns.
Speaker 7: So you talk about now this new initiative, this cold
Speaker 7: Case division, and you talk about Hillermore the third So
Speaker 7: tell us about this new initiative and how and what
Speaker 7: does Ted do in this effort now that he sees
Speaker 7: that there is a real chance of prosecuting these two
Speaker 7: for murder.
Speaker 4: Well, as I mentioned, the Batter's Police was given a
Speaker 4: grant to open the cold case division. They began looking
Speaker 4: at cold case. Actually they selected Gary Kergan the case
Speaker 4: they called Sonic Gary his murder because they had blood
Speaker 4: evidence and Gary Kergan had a son, has a grown son,
Speaker 4: and they were able to match the DNA evidence, so
Speaker 4: they knew that the blood from the trunk of the
Speaker 4: car was Gary Kergan, and they knew that because of
Speaker 4: the amount of the blood, he was dead in the car.
Speaker 4: So this DNA match was what got the case reopened,
Speaker 4: what made them choose the case and feel like they
Speaker 4: could one of the main things that made them go
Speaker 4: forward with it, So that DNA match was key, so
Speaker 4: they Ted Kirgan didn't actually get the call until a
Speaker 4: couple of months before they were going to rearrest the
Speaker 4: two Blilah Mala and Ron dun again because nobody wanted
Speaker 4: to get his host up, so until it was definite
Speaker 4: that they were going forward with the case, Head was
Speaker 4: done to get the call. Even though he had kept
Speaker 4: up with the murderers. He knew where they were, he
Speaker 4: was still stunned. So there's a plan in place. John Dozier,
Speaker 4: who headed up the cold case division, made a plan
Speaker 4: to re arrest Lyla Mala and Ron Dunagan, or to
Speaker 4: question them, I should say, on the same day. In
Speaker 4: December of twenty twelve. Lylamla is now a nurse and
Speaker 4: a story of Queen's view Bark. Ron dun again is
Speaker 4: still in Boser City, so Detective Dopier sends separate teams
Speaker 4: to question both of them because they have no whip
Speaker 4: knowing whether they've been in contact with each other or
Speaker 4: one could alert the other, et cetera, so they send
Speaker 4: two different teams to question them. They call Lelamala, who
Speaker 4: is at her job in the emergency room in the hospital,
Speaker 4: and they tell her that they're coming to our apartment
Speaker 4: and they give her a chance to get there. What's
Speaker 4: crazy about this whole thing is that ched Kurgan also
Speaker 4: knows that they're going to arrest them, so he's there too.
Speaker 4: Unbeknownst to the police detectives, he is following them and
Speaker 4: as they are sitting laylah Mala in her apartment in Queens,
Speaker 4: Ched Kurgan, Memory Tucker and her dad Larry are in
Speaker 4: a car outside and they're watching and they're waiting. Lilah
Speaker 4: confesses again at her apartment. She is immediately when she
Speaker 4: gets the call the detectives say there from bat News.
Speaker 4: Of course she knows that she knows what's going on,
Speaker 4: she knows why they're there. So after she has the
Speaker 4: brief confession to them at her apartment, they take her
Speaker 4: to the District Attorney's office in Queens, where she gives
Speaker 4: a two and a half hour tape confessions. The profilers
Speaker 4: had met with these detectives before, and the Assistant DA
Speaker 4: Dana Cummings, who was there from Baton Rouge along with
Speaker 4: authorities from New York. They had Profilos had told them
Speaker 4: how to elicit that confession and it worked beautifully. She
Speaker 4: confessed both in her apartment and on tape from the
Speaker 4: DA's office. Ron Dunagan was arrested was then questioned and
Speaker 4: arrested in Bosure City, but he basically gave no information
Speaker 4: but that same haunting line, he don't have a body
Speaker 4: to you so and they were both then returned to
Speaker 4: Baton Rouge in mid December and charged with second degree murder.
Speaker 4: Ted was actually on the plane with Li La Mola
Speaker 4: when she was brought back to bat Ruge. He was
Speaker 4: in de jognment not. Yes, Ted is a man of
Speaker 4: many disguises. Yes, he was not going to let her
Speaker 4: out of his sight. He was actually there when they
Speaker 4: booked her and took her to Riker's Island. Before they
Speaker 4: brought her back to Batony. She watched her walk into
Speaker 4: Riker's Island. He was super determined and nothing was going
Speaker 4: to get by him. To stop. Amazing man.
Speaker 7: You talk about Another part of this team is the
Speaker 7: assistant DA Dana Cummings, and she's a thirty year prosecutor
Speaker 7: so and she's renowned for her dealing with the serial
Speaker 7: killer Derek Todd. So tell us what Dana Cummings brought
Speaker 7: to this and her relationship with Ted and his group.
Speaker 4: Well, Dana Cumming was fantastic during the all of the proceedings,
Speaker 4: but she met with Ted was very sympathetic to this story.
Speaker 4: Was determined to get this case, to prosecute the case,
Speaker 4: and to anyway they It was several. There were several
Speaker 4: things that had to happen for things to fall in place.
Speaker 4: Ted and Dana believed all along that Lilah was the
Speaker 4: mastermind behind the murder, and so they would need to
Speaker 4: either prosecute Lilah or have her testify against Ron done again.
Speaker 4: So there were a lot of different grations that had
Speaker 4: to take place. She Lilah Mulla first pleaded not guilty
Speaker 4: so and would not accept the plea deal, so they
Speaker 4: were going to prosecute her. Dana, along with Ted, made
Speaker 4: an extraordinary decision to when Lylah refused the plea deal
Speaker 4: and fled not guilty. That was in April twenty thirteen.
Speaker 4: Ted and Dana agreed to let Ron go at that
Speaker 4: time treat her knit which means to take no action
Speaker 4: at that time with him, which meant that they could
Speaker 4: later erect him. But they actually let him go and
Speaker 4: decided that to show Lilah that they would prosecute her.
Speaker 4: That was a very.
Speaker 7: Yes interesting You also talk about that this in this
Speaker 7: new confession because it seems that everything she said had
Speaker 7: an evolution. So you say, Ted thinks back to that,
Speaker 7: you know that confidential informant and what he had said
Speaker 7: that Lilah had said, So what does Lila say? Now?
Speaker 7: Eerily interesting when Ted thinks.
Speaker 4: Back about the about her poisoning.
Speaker 7: Well, the poisoning. She now gives details to say about
Speaker 7: the poisoning, and then she elaborates that under questioning that
Speaker 7: she did know at first it was a story, but
Speaker 7: that she didn't know and then she did know. So
Speaker 7: you're talking or or during her well, no, just this confession,
Speaker 7: just this confession at this time that that Dana Cummings
Speaker 7: gets from her.
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, yes, she tells the story that she that
Speaker 4: she poisoned Gary, that he struggled and fell to the ground,
Speaker 4: and that Ron mothered him and took him in the
Speaker 4: bathroom and dismembered him, and that she had nothing to
Speaker 4: do with it, got in adjacent room for hours and
Speaker 4: was a party to none of it. That Ron later
Speaker 4: took parts of the body in h sarbage bag and
Speaker 4: put them in the trunk of the car, and then
Speaker 4: she later he told her to get in the car.
Speaker 4: So this was you know, the basic tenets of that confession.
Speaker 7: Now you talk about in this always Ted is looking
Speaker 7: for Gary's body, and Ted is looking for information in
Speaker 7: a way to find out the location of that body
Speaker 7: of his brother. You also talk about your friend and
Speaker 7: Edelman and tell us what again, to tell us what
Speaker 7: her role was in this group.
Speaker 4: Well and Edelman is the public relations executive here in
Speaker 4: Baton Rouge, and she worked with Ted Kurgan on a
Speaker 4: number of projects through the years, and when the case
Speaker 4: was reopened, she volunteered to handle media, which she thought
Speaker 4: would be something that would last a few days. Instead,
Speaker 4: she ended up becoming inside an insider in the case.
Speaker 4: Heavily involved in the case. Ted brought her boxes and
Speaker 4: boxes of research that he had done through the years
Speaker 4: from the first case and in the intervening years. She
Speaker 4: helped to catalog over nine hundred digitized documents that they
Speaker 4: used for different things, helped coordinate private investigators who talked
Speaker 4: to family members, and helped create timelines and possible scenarios.
Speaker 4: So she was heavily, heavily involved. But probably one of
Speaker 4: our most important roles was befriending Ronald Dunagan, which she
Speaker 4: did after he was as I mentioned, he was let
Speaker 4: goes as a preacher myt and was brought went back
Speaker 4: home to North Louisiana. Tim Miller of Texas Equisearch, as
Speaker 4: I alluded to earlier, was here in bat Rouge for
Speaker 4: that dig looking for Gary Kergan, and he stayed on
Speaker 4: and also befriend had ron done again. And Tim Miller
Speaker 4: is an extraordinary man in his unright, very outspoken and
Speaker 4: a little bit rough, and he tried his best to
Speaker 4: get Ronald done again, to confess where he buried or
Speaker 4: left Gary Turgan's remains, and he worked really, really hard
Speaker 4: on it, so much so that they were saying they
Speaker 4: were staying west Baton Rouge across the Mississippi River. And
Speaker 4: Ron took Tim Miller to a site where he and
Speaker 4: Lyle had shot guns, and that evening Ron attempted suicide
Speaker 4: in his hotel room. So and Ron is taken to
Speaker 4: the hospital where he's admitted to a mental ward. And
Speaker 4: Ann went in to visit him in the mental ward
Speaker 4: under the guise of bringing him a new cell phone
Speaker 4: from Tim Miller. And from that point on she becomes
Speaker 4: his contact because he has no one. He's in the
Speaker 4: hospital by himself, and she actually befriends him, and uh
Speaker 4: is with him, travels with you, eat dinner with him
Speaker 4: here in Baton Ridge, travels even travels to Bosier City
Speaker 4: once he goes back to Bosier City a month or
Speaker 4: so later, a month or two later, and visits him
Speaker 4: there with Ted Kergan as her chauffeur, and so she
Speaker 4: has quite an extraordinary role in this whole thing because
Speaker 4: she is able to find out for Ronald Dune again
Speaker 4: thinks about the time of the murder about you know,
Speaker 4: and pretty much everything that ron dunnage and told her
Speaker 4: was substantiated. That he that he liked Gary Kergan, that
Speaker 4: he was a nice person, and so it was just
Speaker 4: a real extraordinary insight into this person. He was not
Speaker 4: He was a a person who was not.
Speaker 7: She was not.
Speaker 4: Probably he was illiterate, but he was street smart and
Speaker 4: he had a lot of mocks the so anyway, it
Speaker 4: was extraordinary insight into the person who was blond down
Speaker 4: against so and played an extremely important role in finding
Speaker 4: out more about him.
Speaker 7: This is not a slam dunk at all. This is
Speaker 7: planned for April twenty thirteen, and of course they plead
Speaker 7: not guilty. And you talk about an attorney holthaas not
Speaker 7: filing motions again delaying this and you say that Ted,
Speaker 7: you know, was looking at Leela, seeing what she looked
Speaker 7: at at forty years of age, and she hadn't aged
Speaker 7: so well. But there was an issue of an alleged
Speaker 7: warrantless Circe and seizure and if granted, it meant the
Speaker 7: journals the diaries wouldn't be admissible. So what do they
Speaker 7: do as a result, What does Ted personally do and
Speaker 7: how do they deal with this grave situation?
Speaker 4: Well, they were unable to find the original document in
Speaker 4: Las Vegas, but he, through a friend of a friend,
Speaker 4: gets in touch with a very powerful attorney in Las
Speaker 4: Vegas and they make it happen. They uncover the document,
Speaker 4: the original search mark document, so that they are able
Speaker 4: to admit those diaries and evidence. It was again, all
Speaker 4: through this period there are just incredible coincidences and force
Speaker 4: of will that make things proceed because, as you say,
Speaker 4: it certainly wasn't a slam dog. There were many times
Speaker 4: when things could have gone awry. But yes, they were
Speaker 4: able to find the original document and thus the diaries
Speaker 4: were admitted into evidence.
Speaker 7: Also, so there's another twist in this as well, is
Speaker 7: that September fourth, twenty fourteenth grand jury decides to indict
Speaker 7: them again. But then Leila has a change of changes
Speaker 7: her mind. Tell us what she changes her mind about
Speaker 7: and how this offers up a predicament for prosecutors.
Speaker 4: Well, the morning of the grand jury, Ann Edelman and
Speaker 4: Ted Kurgan go to the courthouse and are met by
Speaker 4: Dana Cummings lets them know that things are arrived. Apparently
Speaker 4: Lilah Malla follow Sala filed post conviction release papers against
Speaker 4: her counsel, and she had decided she was not going
Speaker 4: to testify against ron done again and things were kind
Speaker 4: of up in the air for several hours until finally
Speaker 4: Dana Cummings convinced her to testify by saying that she
Speaker 4: would charge Lylah with first degree murder and use those
Speaker 4: diaries and her original confessions against her. But you know, again,
Speaker 4: it was you know, it was several hours of handwringing
Speaker 4: and worrying, wondering if indeed she would continue to agree
Speaker 4: to testify it, which she did, and then Ronald Dunagan
Speaker 4: was indicted by the grand jury that day and police
Speaker 4: went to arrest him the next day in Bosuer City,
Speaker 4: where an settlement and Ted Kurgan were also on hand
Speaker 4: to watch him be arrested at the Ramada end there
Speaker 4: in Bosua City.
Speaker 7: Absolutely every step of the way, he wants to make
Speaker 7: sure that his work and his efforts have come to fruition, doesn't.
Speaker 4: He no stone unturned with the phrase that was used
Speaker 4: over and over again.
Speaker 7: Now you have all this cast of heroic people at
Speaker 7: this trial. Finally you have Detective Howl though he's interestingly
Speaker 7: suffering from cancer and in prison, but his partner Ari
Speaker 7: Thompson is one of the people at the and crucial
Speaker 7: people at the trial. On day three, you say the
Speaker 7: star witness here. Lilah enters the courtroom and they hadn't
Speaker 7: seen each other for thirty one years, and you talk
Speaker 7: about her being real small and her leg shackled fifty
Speaker 7: years old. Tell us what Gary, as you describe in
Speaker 7: the book, what Ted felt and Gary's son is there?
Speaker 7: All these other people are there? What was this scene
Speaker 7: like as you described in the book, for Ted to
Speaker 7: lay eyes on Lilah and Ron Dunagan, Well, Ron.
Speaker 4: Done again. I was sitting right behind Ron done again,
Speaker 4: and Lylah entered the courtroom almost right in front of
Speaker 4: him and had to walk past him. And as you said,
Speaker 4: she's very very tiny. When I spoke to her in prison,
Speaker 4: I had to do a double take. When she came
Speaker 4: out and I had seen her in the courtroom, She's
Speaker 4: very very tiny. She was dressed in the olive drab
Speaker 4: prison and had her leg as you mentioned had her
Speaker 4: legs shackled, and she was looked very frail. Her testimony
Speaker 4: was very dramatic. She kept stopping and starting and tearing
Speaker 4: up and needing to, you know, catch her breath, and
Speaker 4: she was very she acted very very scared of Ronald Dunagan.
Speaker 4: She acted very, very timid and just scared in general. Uh.
Speaker 4: And she the same basic tenets of the story she
Speaker 4: told in her last three to four confessions that they
Speaker 4: that she poisoned Kerry Kurgan with painted wine, that he
Speaker 4: fell to the floor, that Ronald Dunagan suffocated him, that
Speaker 4: Ronald Dunagan took him and dismembered him, put him in
Speaker 4: garbage bag and then distributed those in various places. And she,
Speaker 4: you know, had knew nothing of where or how this happened,
Speaker 4: or where the bags were, or even though she was
Speaker 4: she said she was in the car with him as
Speaker 4: they drove to New Orleans that night.
Speaker 7: Now you talk about that, the information that she provides
Speaker 7: in the direct examination and then in the more treacherous
Speaker 7: cross examination, she fares pretty well and stays fairly stable
Speaker 7: and answers the questions effectively. Ted was happy with her.
Speaker 7: Dana was Cummings was quite happy with her performance on
Speaker 7: the stand. Tell us what you talk about the the
Speaker 7: closing arguments and what the what that evidence provided for?
Speaker 7: So what does the DA do with that testimony? Again,
Speaker 7: we talked about how effective she thought it was. Tell
Speaker 7: us more about what happens after that at the trial.
Speaker 4: Well, several things that the fact that they had not
Speaker 4: only they had lawless testimony, but without law of testimony.
Speaker 4: They had the blood evidence, and then they had the
Speaker 4: diaries that determined premeditation. So all of those things together
Speaker 4: help to convict her. The jury took less than an
Speaker 4: hour to unanosy, I'm sorry to convict done again. The
Speaker 4: jury took less than an hour to unanimously convict lol
Speaker 4: done again.
Speaker 7: And he was sentenced to life without parole, and she
Speaker 7: agreed to a thirty year sentence. So effectively, both of
Speaker 7: these killers would spend the rest of their life in prison. Correct.
Speaker 4: Yeah, And we were very surprised that she took the
Speaker 4: thirty year plea deal. Chad Kirgan was very insistent along
Speaker 4: with Daya coming that plea deal be that long, that
Speaker 4: sentence be that long, and we, you know, very frankly
Speaker 4: wondered why she took such a long flee deal instead
Speaker 4: of rolling the diet and going to trial. That perhaps
Speaker 4: there were other things either in the commission of that
Speaker 4: crime or maybe other crimes that she maybe didn't want
Speaker 4: to come out, but it was extraordinary that she did,
Speaker 4: except thirty years in prison.
Speaker 7: Yes, in the diaries where I thought were more than effective,
Speaker 7: because the DA pointed to them to say, listen, when
Speaker 7: you get in there to deliberations, you're going to read
Speaker 7: these what her words are, and she quoted from those
Speaker 7: hit Gary next time saw some really chilling passages. Now,
Speaker 7: it's interesting to me that you talk about it's not
Speaker 7: really a celebration, but the relief that Ted has in
Speaker 7: all this effort and his group's effort and everybody involved
Speaker 7: that wanted to see this outcome finally after thirty one
Speaker 7: years and and Lilah on the lamb and having a
Speaker 7: new life for so many years. But Ted doesn't stop there.
Speaker 7: So you talk about who he hires at Jennifer Jewan
Speaker 7: tell us what Ted is looking for now?
Speaker 4: Well, even before the trial, as I mentioned, Lilah's testimony
Speaker 4: was fairly consistent, but it was it was probably there
Speaker 4: were probably a lot of falsehoods in there. His criminologists
Speaker 4: because of the the holes in the wall, which were
Speaker 4: very high up and in the ceiling, they determined that
Speaker 4: Gary was fighting for his life standing up, not on
Speaker 4: the floor being poisoned and falling to the floor. So
Speaker 4: the strug people that went on in the bedroom that
Speaker 4: night was most likely not as she described. Instead, it
Speaker 4: was probably a vicious battle that Gary Kergan fought for
Speaker 4: his life, not just succumb to to poison y. So
Speaker 4: that was one of the things that the criminologists uncovered,
Speaker 4: that he was probably standing and fighting, not fron.
Speaker 7: You also talk about that she debunked the idea of
Speaker 7: dismemberment and based on what.
Speaker 4: Well several things the Crimethine photos even they had very
Speaker 4: they did clean up, but they have very little time
Speaker 4: to do so, and the photos of the bathroom are spotless.
Speaker 4: Not only that that there was very little evidence that
Speaker 4: it could have been done in the bathroom. It was
Speaker 4: the timing, the timing of you know, the murder happening
Speaker 4: two thirty three o'clock in the morning, the fact that
Speaker 4: they would dismember him and then get to New Orleans
Speaker 4: and return to this duplex by seven am. It doesn't
Speaker 4: The experts agreed that there wouldn't be time for this
Speaker 4: to happen, that it would and that there would be
Speaker 4: an awful lot of blood and there was just not
Speaker 4: evidence of that much blood.
Speaker 7: You also talk about that they concluded that when the
Speaker 7: story was that there was six bags, that Jewan concluded
Speaker 7: that there was no more than one garbage bag in
Speaker 7: that trunk.
Speaker 4: Yeah, she was from the pattern she could tell from
Speaker 4: the She said that there would be the patterns that
Speaker 4: bags make when they drag over. She said that you
Speaker 4: would see that patterns from the different bags and there
Speaker 4: was no evidence that there was more than one bag.
Speaker 7: About happened, right, And she also contemplated that An wondered
Speaker 7: that there was no fingerprints and or hair samples found,
Speaker 7: so were She contemplated where they were wearing gloves and
Speaker 7: hats and national said what about the she.
Speaker 4: Was parying hats and that they were and that they
Speaker 4: probably wiped the car clean, because that was one of
Speaker 4: the things that Gary Kirkin's Cadillac had none of their
Speaker 4: hair or fingerprints samples, and that was that was one
Speaker 4: of the things that one reason why they were released
Speaker 4: is they couldn't hold them. But there was no none
Speaker 4: of that type of evidence at that time in nineteen
Speaker 4: eighty five.
Speaker 7: She also talked about and questioned why they would use
Speaker 7: a map at all, what would they need a map for?
Speaker 7: And so there was some talk of them being possible
Speaker 7: serial killers. And you also talk about there was blood
Speaker 7: on the ceiling, but it wasn't Lilah's DNA going back
Speaker 7: to me, and also when you go back to the beginning,
Speaker 7: when they found at the Byron apartment, they found other
Speaker 7: people's identification, didn't they.
Speaker 4: They actually found that in Las Vegas among their things
Speaker 4: there were social security cards and driver's license, yes, for
Speaker 4: other people. But the ceiling tile that was still held
Speaker 4: in evidence by Batanuru's police had that had the blood
Speaker 4: on it. The blood was tested not it was a female.
Speaker 4: So yes, there was blood on the ceiling in the
Speaker 4: Byron Street apartment that belonged to a Semile and which
Speaker 4: was not Lilah Molla. So very curious. Indeed, yes, what
Speaker 4: were there more victims? Again, she took a thirty year
Speaker 4: plea deal, So was she hiding something? I don't know,
Speaker 4: but very curious.
Speaker 7: Did Ted or anyone else from the group try to
Speaker 7: contact Lilah after that to gain any more information? Once
Speaker 7: she was incarcerated.
Speaker 4: I spoke to Leilah a couple of times after she
Speaker 4: was incarcerated, and she is says she doesn't know where
Speaker 4: you know it maintains that she doesn't know where Gary
Speaker 4: Gary Kirkan's body is.
Speaker 7: She did say that it was dumpsters as far as
Speaker 7: she can remember, and she did provide that she remembered
Speaker 7: it was a BFI dumpster.
Speaker 4: Yes, you know her her stories about the dumpsters kind
Speaker 4: of varied, didn't She never really she never really was
Speaker 4: consistent and she really didn't give consistent information about the dumpsters.
Speaker 4: And she said she really didn't know, but she did
Speaker 4: mention b AFI. She mentioned a color. I think it
Speaker 4: was purple. They were purple, But it was not very
Speaker 4: consistent her reports of the.
Speaker 7: Dum You talk about Ron Dunnogan's behavior when e Lilah
Speaker 7: is testifying against him after thirty one years and not
Speaker 7: seeing her, that must have been interesting to observe.
Speaker 4: Yes, well, Chruse. He was violently shaking his head and
Speaker 4: you know, foot tapping, and he was very much in
Speaker 4: disagreement with what she was saying. However, there's some thought
Speaker 4: that maybe he was happy to see her again. He
Speaker 4: had seen her in thirty years, and she was the
Speaker 4: great love of his life. So even under those circumstances,
Speaker 4: perhaps he was happy to see her. Wow.
Speaker 7: In Lilah's testimony, it seemed that people believed it seemed
Speaker 7: that she'd got credit for being remorseful and actually sorry
Speaker 7: about this, that this event ever happened. What did you
Speaker 7: think of her testimony in regards to that remorsefulness.
Speaker 4: I thought her whole performance as I said in the book,
Speaker 4: and won an Academy award. I'm not sure how much
Speaker 4: truth there was to it. I'm not sure that she
Speaker 4: at all. So I'm not really sure. I think she
Speaker 4: said what she needed to say and what she was
Speaker 4: you know, she knew she needed to say. I'm not
Speaker 4: I don't believe she was remorseful.
Speaker 7: Now, you talk about the relationship that Ted maintained with
Speaker 7: his nephew Wade, and Wade was at the trial as
Speaker 7: well and was approached by journalists, and you spoke to Wade,
Speaker 7: I believe, So tell us a little bit about what
Speaker 7: it seemed to be the effect after all these years
Speaker 7: and how he was faring from it all.
Speaker 4: Oh, Wade, is it very wyant thoughtful man? He obviously
Speaker 4: has a great deal of love and respect for his
Speaker 4: uncle Ted. He was so very emotional after the verdict,
Speaker 4: and you know, it's been a real uh. I think
Speaker 4: it's been really really transformative for him, the whole the
Speaker 4: verdict and being able to put this behind him. He
Speaker 4: is he is a very very thoughtful man and and
Speaker 4: again gave so much credit to Ted and they're very
Speaker 4: very close.
Speaker 7: That's great. You also talk about a few days after
Speaker 7: this trial verdict just too again a little bit of
Speaker 7: icing on the cake of for Ted a little bit anyway,
Speaker 7: something he was honored with the Hall of Fame involving
Speaker 7: the Sonic franchises. So tell us a little bit about this,
Speaker 7: and it seemed like the photo you provided, it was
Speaker 7: an important day for him.
Speaker 4: Absolutely, it was amazing timing the trial should have been
Speaker 4: in the summer. It was postponed until September twenty fifteen,
Speaker 4: and as it turned out, Ted left the trial and
Speaker 4: traveled to Kansas City where he did receive the Troy
Speaker 4: Smith Lifetime Achievement Award at the Sonic National Convention. So
Speaker 4: it was you know, he was asked many times if
Speaker 4: the verdict, the trial, that all of these proceedings were surreal,
Speaker 4: and he said, no, they were very real. But indeed,
Speaker 4: when after his speech at the Sonic Convention, he walked
Speaker 4: off the stage and was high five by members of
Speaker 4: the band earth Wind and Byer, who were the evening's entertainment,
Speaker 4: and Ted said, that was the real. So it was really,
Speaker 4: as you say, a real you know, almost in Ted's
Speaker 4: business is still called Kirgan Brothers, so you know, all
Speaker 4: along it was as if Gary was continuing to play
Speaker 4: a role. And I'm sure at the convention Ted very
Speaker 4: much Gary within there too.
Speaker 7: Yeah, in the end of the book too, you talk
Speaker 7: about all the people that were instrumental. Usually there's an acknowledgment,
Speaker 7: but not often so much acknowledgment of the players that
Speaker 7: you just wrote about. So maybe you can tell us
Speaker 7: about all the people, including Ted and Memory Tucker, that
Speaker 7: were instrumental in this, in your opinion, in getting this
Speaker 7: again an incredible journey and mission to have these killers
Speaker 7: face justice.
Speaker 4: Well, certainly beginning with Ted, an Edelman said, a just
Speaker 4: a really crucial role in working through all of these
Speaker 4: timelines and developing, you know, the case. Memory Tucker, for
Speaker 4: as her role in working with the assistant with the
Speaker 4: Assistant District Attorney's office and the Batons' police and getting
Speaker 4: the help and get it the cold case reopened. As
Speaker 4: I mentioned John Desby who made the decision to reopen
Speaker 4: the case as the head of Baton rig Cold Case Division,
Speaker 4: And there were other detectives Chuck Smith and Jim Steele,
Speaker 4: investigators with the DA's office. They worked closely with Ted.
Speaker 4: In fact, Chuck said that he had never seen anyone
Speaker 4: like Ted who gathered in information, processed it, processed it
Speaker 4: and acted with almost military like decision. But Chuck and
Speaker 4: Jim were very important. Hillar Moore, who was the District Attorney,
Speaker 4: was the original crime scene investigator at Byron Street in
Speaker 4: nineteen eighty four, so he had a definite invested in
Speaker 4: this case and that was an incredible coincidence. There were
Speaker 4: private investigators Scott Johnson, George Steinmel who spent a lot
Speaker 4: of time talking to family and friends and people who
Speaker 4: knew both Leilah Mala and Ron Donnegan during the intervening years.
Speaker 4: His wife, Ann Kirgan was an extraordinary person. Ted was
Speaker 4: able to keep his keep Anne and his son out
Speaker 4: of the loop on everything that was going on, so
Speaker 4: that their home life and their house was a safe
Speaker 4: haven at all times and as an incredibly strong and
Speaker 4: supportive person. And I really enjoyed getting to know her.
Speaker 4: Uh Kirkin Brothers executives Doris Reiners and Janet Johnson, both
Speaker 4: of whom worked with Gary Kergan thirty plus years ago.
Speaker 4: They were there every step of the way. I was
Speaker 4: able to talk to them and gain terrific insight into
Speaker 4: what it was like thirty years ago and throughout their
Speaker 4: time with the organization, So that was was really was
Speaker 4: really great. And also meeting Tim Miller of Texas ec
Speaker 4: Research just just an incredible man. There were other people
Speaker 4: who Ted enlisted to help look for his brother. There
Speaker 4: were Mike Castle and Julie Starbuck of Peace River Canine,
Speaker 4: as you mentioned Jennifer June, and there was even the
Speaker 4: property owner in Iberville Parrish who was like a color
Speaker 4: commentator of history about the area, was Don Risdraff. So
Speaker 4: I mean, there were just so many people who once
Speaker 4: they heard Ted of the story of the murder in
Speaker 4: Ted's remarkable journey, they just became a nest with the
Speaker 4: whole thing. So it was just an incredible experience.
Speaker 7: And I also want to say this is an incredible
Speaker 7: book and the publisher is Wild Blue Press, and I
Speaker 7: have a lot of authors from Wild Blue Press. It's
Speaker 7: a great publishing house. And also I wanted to mention
Speaker 7: that I was interested to see that the book is
Speaker 7: edited by Anthony Flacco.
Speaker 4: Very very interesting. Anthony was very very helpful, made some
Speaker 4: extraordinary auditions and helped you with the editing. I really
Speaker 4: really enjoyed working with him. He was a great, great editor.
Speaker 7: Absolutely is a great author, a great author, and it
Speaker 7: was a great guest. We have to let you go,
Speaker 7: but before we do, maybe we can you can talk
Speaker 7: a little bit about the newsletter that you have, and
Speaker 7: if you have a Facebook page for this book or
Speaker 7: where people might look for other work or be able
Speaker 7: to contact you, tell us a little bit about that.
Speaker 4: Sure, I have a website MBK as in my Brother's
Speaker 4: Keeper mbkbooks dot com and you can find out to
Speaker 4: have a blog there, lots of photos and a whole
Speaker 4: lot of information on that page. You can contact me
Speaker 4: through that as well, and of course the books available
Speaker 4: through the web page, but also on Amazon, and that
Speaker 4: I do have my Brother's Keeper book faith page. Love
Speaker 4: for you to friend me there, and I keep putting
Speaker 4: out more information. Ted continues to search in and hopefully
Speaker 4: one day there may be a further resolution forensics. Today,
Speaker 4: forensics are amazing, so we'll continue to follow the story.
Speaker 7: Wow. Yes, there's probably more to this story, obviously. I
Speaker 7: want to thank you very much Chris Russell Blackwood for
Speaker 7: coming on to talk about my brother's keeper, a thirty
Speaker 7: year quest to bring two killers to justice. It's been fantastic.
Speaker 7: Thank you very much. You have a great evening. Thank you.
Speaker 4: I enjoyed it. Dan, thank you.
Speaker 7: Good night, good night,