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<v Speaker 1>Dish. I have a thirty one fifty five krc DE

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<v Speaker 1>talk station. Chuck Ingram's on vacation. Judge Jennita Polatana, Heather

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<v Speaker 1>didn't do a personalized message for you today because she

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<v Speaker 1>she's filling in.

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<v Speaker 2>So my stomach was churning, not knowing what to expect.

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<v Speaker 2>Instead of a madman, I heard the voice of a

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<v Speaker 2>lovely lady.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and apparently, you know, like Chuck Ingram does the

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<v Speaker 1>traffic for like the entire United States, I'm overstating the case,

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<v Speaker 1>but he does lots of the city. She apparently is

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<v Speaker 1>in Detroit, so she is not closely following the content

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<v Speaker 1>of the fifty five Carcey Morning Show, but we do.

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<v Speaker 1>And everybody knows. It's it's appointment listening time on the

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<v Speaker 1>fifty five Carsy Morning Show because Judge Enita Polatana joins

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<v Speaker 1>us every Wednesday at this time, and I really enjoyed

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<v Speaker 1>your column this morning, so I always enjoy your column,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, I love it. Searching for Monsters is the title,

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<v Speaker 1>but it involves a subject matter over which I really

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<v Speaker 1>didn't have a whole lot of knowledge and familiarity, and

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<v Speaker 1>that's the whether it's lawful or not for us to

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<v Speaker 1>go to some foreign country and kidnap some one. And

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<v Speaker 1>I know we've done this before, and you cite a

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<v Speaker 1>bunch of illustrations and it almost seems like and I

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<v Speaker 1>know it's against natural law, and you make a great

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<v Speaker 1>argument that this isn't right. But if someone has committed

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<v Speaker 1>a harm against our country, I hear about people fleeing

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<v Speaker 1>to countries that don't have an extradition treaty with the

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<v Speaker 1>United States. That means we can't negotiate with the country

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<v Speaker 1>to have them export the guy and bring him back here.

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<v Speaker 1>But what of going to that country and just picking

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<v Speaker 1>him up and bringing him back. Now, if you got

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<v Speaker 1>harmed under our country, one can make a moral argument that, well,

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<v Speaker 1>that seems okay. They won't extra di ite hm because

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<v Speaker 1>we don't have a treaty. But the guy did us harm,

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<v Speaker 1>Let's go pick him up and bring him back and

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<v Speaker 1>put him to trial. But as you explain, and this

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<v Speaker 1>is puzzling to me, crime is committed against someone outside

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<v Speaker 1>of the United States, not against the United States or

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<v Speaker 1>its interest. We can go and grab that person and

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<v Speaker 1>try him in our country for crimes committed against some

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<v Speaker 1>other government or some other outside the United States interest.

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<v Speaker 2>I yes, yes, as absurd as that sounds. And I

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<v Speaker 2>gave an example, and it was the back pages of

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<v Speaker 2>the New York Times. If you didn't know the background,

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<v Speaker 2>you would say, oh, some Venezuela in general just pleaded

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<v Speaker 2>guilty to drug dealing in Manhattan. I'm glad they caught

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<v Speaker 2>the guy. However, he pleaded guilty to distributing drugs in Venezuela,

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<v Speaker 2>not in the United States.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>He then left Venezuela retired in Spain. The United States

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<v Speaker 2>tried to extrad item in the Spanish courts said no,

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<v Speaker 2>you have no jurisdiction over him, so they kidnapped him. Anyway,

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<v Speaker 2>he shows up in an American court. He says, I

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<v Speaker 2>was kidnapped. The court said, well, I don't care. The

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<v Speaker 2>FEDS can kidnap you. He pleads guilty to these crimes

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<v Speaker 2>in Venezuela. So far there is no connection to the

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<v Speaker 2>United States except the Congress enacted in the Bidenministration legislation

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<v Speaker 2>telling federal judges, if the FEDS, the FBI, and an

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<v Speaker 2>assistant US attorney walk into your courtroom with a human

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<v Speaker 2>being and an indictment, you have to try that person.

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<v Speaker 2>Even at the human beings never been in the United States,

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<v Speaker 2>never harmed a person in the United States, never harmed

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<v Speaker 2>assets in the United States, and all the events took

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<v Speaker 2>place in another country. Now, why is the government doing this?

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<v Speaker 2>They probably want him to trade information against their real target,

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<v Speaker 2>who's his former boss, Nicholas Maduro, who is the president

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<v Speaker 2>slash dictator of Venezuela. In the meantime, kidnapping, exhaustion of

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<v Speaker 2>a tremendous amount of resources and assets to get this

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<v Speaker 2>guy here, and the use of the federal courts. As

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<v Speaker 2>a point, this also allows the President of the United States,

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<v Speaker 2>who is the ultimate person running the Department of Justice,

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<v Speaker 2>to pick anybody wants around the world and say, indict

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<v Speaker 2>that guy for some crime he committed in some other

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<v Speaker 2>country and for which he wasn't prosecuted, and get him here.

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<v Speaker 2>That's what's happening.

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<v Speaker 1>I don't understand how that represents a judicial controversy in

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<v Speaker 1>a US court. How do you get an indictment against

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<v Speaker 1>someone for a crime committed under somebody of some other

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<v Speaker 1>committed in some other country. Okay, drug trafficking is illegal

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<v Speaker 1>in the United States, but you know that's a US law.

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<v Speaker 1>I don't know what the status of the law is

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<v Speaker 1>in Venezuela, but picking up a guy in Spain for

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<v Speaker 1>a crime he committed in Venezuela in violation of Venezuela

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<v Speaker 1>in law. I mean, I'm just perplexed by this. And

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<v Speaker 1>you pointed out the US Supreme Court does not care

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<v Speaker 1>a wit about what happened behind the scenes as long

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<v Speaker 1>as that person's in front of the court itself. They

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<v Speaker 1>don't care if he was kidnapped or had his due

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<v Speaker 1>process rights violent, or anything else.

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<v Speaker 2>Correct, The Supreme Court does not care how a person

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<v Speaker 2>got in to the courtroom. This has been a longstanding

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<v Speaker 2>and complaint by the natural law libertarian small government people

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<v Speaker 2>of which you and I are two in American jurisprudence.

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<v Speaker 2>But it's been a consistent understanding of federal courts. The

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<v Speaker 2>Feds can kidnap anybody and bring him into the courtroom,

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<v Speaker 2>and his complaint that I was kidnapped these people violated

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<v Speaker 2>the very laws that they are attempting to enforce, will

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<v Speaker 2>fall on deaf ears. The Feds often commit crimes in

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<v Speaker 2>order to solve crimes. Let's face it. The classic case

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<v Speaker 2>is a federal judge in Denver, this is now twenty

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<v Speaker 2>five years ago, tried for bribery, and in that case,

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<v Speaker 2>the Feds bribed a witness to testify against him. He

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<v Speaker 2>was convicted, and the Tenth Circuit overturned it. So this

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<v Speaker 2>stuff happens all the time. They almost always get away

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<v Speaker 2>with it. We'll see where the case of this general goes.

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<v Speaker 2>He's still in Manhattan, he's still in a jail here.

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<v Speaker 2>He's probably trying to give them enough information so they'll

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<v Speaker 2>say to the federal judge before whom he pleaded guilty

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<v Speaker 2>last week and let him go back to Spain. Whole

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<v Speaker 2>thing is a farce. It's an abuse of of the

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<v Speaker 2>rule of law.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, and you raise an excellent point in your uh,

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<v Speaker 1>in your rhetorical question. Is it lawful for the Chinese

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<v Speaker 1>government to enter Hawaii and kidnap an American tech executive

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<v Speaker 1>or politician for some crime that they claim has been

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<v Speaker 1>done and violations to the US law for example?

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<v Speaker 2>Me right?

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<v Speaker 1>That it's just it becomes a question whose ox is

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<v Speaker 1>being going? Oh no, we would screen bloody murder if

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<v Speaker 1>that happened. That what the Chinese kidnap somebody and took

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<v Speaker 1>them to China. This is an outrage.

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<v Speaker 2>You're you're exactly You're exactly right. And and these these

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<v Speaker 2>cases should be on the front page so that the

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<v Speaker 2>public as has outraged as you and I, rather than

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<v Speaker 2>on the back page. And if you read the article,

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<v Speaker 2>not knowing the background, you think, oh, well, they picked

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<v Speaker 2>up another drug trafficker and he's an ex general. I'm blate,

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<v Speaker 2>it's going to jail. No, he didn't violate any American laws.

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<v Speaker 2>He probably didn't even violate any Venezuelan laws the way

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<v Speaker 2>they are understood and enforced in Venezuela.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and that's what I was alluding to earlier. I

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<v Speaker 1>obviously do not know the state of Venezuelan law. But

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<v Speaker 1>the idea that we were trying a guy for committing crime,

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<v Speaker 1>allegedly committing crimes in Venezuela in a US court that

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<v Speaker 1>we kidnapped, it's I just am sitting here totally in sense,

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<v Speaker 1>in my mind is blown that that exists. It used

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<v Speaker 1>to be, though there was a limitation, it was justified

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<v Speaker 1>to redress criminal harm actually caused by the kidnapp person

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<v Speaker 1>to an American person or property, or he pointed out

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<v Speaker 1>earlier in the Biden administration. In twenty twenty two, Congress

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<v Speaker 1>extended that authority in federal courts to cover crimes committed

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<v Speaker 1>in foreign countries against foreign persons. So there's a law

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<v Speaker 1>on the books that authorized.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, it not only authorizes it, it tells federal judges

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<v Speaker 2>that Jay, they have jurisdiction under that clause in the

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<v Speaker 2>Constitution that lamentable Jimmy Madison, clause that lets the Congress

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<v Speaker 2>expand or contract federal judicial jurisdiction. They expanded it and

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<v Speaker 2>said you will try it. I would throw it out

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<v Speaker 2>and say it's not just issiable. But that's me and

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<v Speaker 2>I was not a federal judge. I was a state judges,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, and I never had anything like this. This

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<v Speaker 2>stuff is of relatively recent vintage. The statute that I

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<v Speaker 2>cite is only three years old. Wow.

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<v Speaker 1>So we've extended federal courts authority over foreign lands and

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<v Speaker 1>over foreign crimes.

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<v Speaker 2>Correct. So expect the Feds to pick up a Russian

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<v Speaker 2>soldier who killed a Ukrainian civilian and they'll be tried

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<v Speaker 2>in the Eastern District of Virginia where the Feds never lose,

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<v Speaker 2>and will be sentenced to jail for the rest of

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<v Speaker 2>his life. And then they'll trade him with some American

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<v Speaker 2>basketball player that's in a Moscow jail.

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<v Speaker 1>Wow. And I presume the CIA the ones responsible for

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<v Speaker 1>going out and doing the kidnapping in most of these cases.

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<v Speaker 2>Sadly, yes, yes, there are six CIA agents who can't

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<v Speaker 2>go to Europe because a European wide indictment still stands

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<v Speaker 2>for their having kidnapped an Egyptian cleric, brought him to

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<v Speaker 2>Egypt for torture, and then came back to the United States.

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<v Speaker 2>They've been indicted by Italian magistrates and that indictment still stands.

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<v Speaker 2>George Bush can't go to Europe because he and Dick

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<v Speaker 2>Cheney and indicted by a Spanish magistrates.

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<v Speaker 1>So well, under our theory, then it will be aoka

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<v Speaker 1>for whatever Italy has by way of special forces to

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<v Speaker 1>come in here and kidnap those CIA agents and bring

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<v Speaker 1>them back to Italy.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes it would, Yes, it would. If the logic behind

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<v Speaker 2>the American use of kidnapping applies universally, it would make

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<v Speaker 2>perfect sense for the Italian intel people to kidnap these

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<v Speaker 2>CIA guys and put them on trial in Italy, and

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<v Speaker 2>they'll be convicted because what they did is on tape.

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<v Speaker 1>Judge of Polton an enlightening discussion, again an area that

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<v Speaker 1>I was really not familiar with at all, and it's

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<v Speaker 1>obviously I share with you this outrageous a system and

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<v Speaker 1>the state of the law that we were living under

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<v Speaker 1>right now in the United States. It's just mind blowing

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<v Speaker 1>but refreshing to talk with you about it and bring

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<v Speaker 1>it to everybody's attention so more people know about it.

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<v Speaker 1>Judge entered Apolitano judging Freedom is his podcasts. Who are

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<v Speaker 1>you going to be talking to today, your honor?

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<v Speaker 2>I have Max blumouthal of Colonel Larry Wilgerson, the former

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<v Speaker 2>chief of staff for Colon Powell, and the great filled

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<v Speaker 2>CIA agent who told George Bush that Saddam Hussein does

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<v Speaker 2>not have weapons of mass destruction, whereupon Bush threw him

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<v Speaker 2>out of the Oval office.

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<v Speaker 1>Yes, indeed, it's amazing what we actually learn over time,

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<v Speaker 1>isn't it. It's refreshing at least get the information out,

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<v Speaker 1>even if it's way past due until next Wednesday, my

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<v Speaker 1>dear friend, have a wonderful week you as well.

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<v Speaker 2>Thank you, Brian, all the best.

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<v Speaker 1>Thank you, sir. Eight forty two Right now fifty five

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<v Speaker 1>KRC the talk station, don't go away.

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<v Speaker 2>I'd be right back fifty five KRC dot Com