WEBVTT 1 00:00:10.279 --> 00:00:12.679 Hello, and welcome Mythic Mind, where we pursue wisdom on 2 00:00:12.720 --> 00:00:16.000 the path between primary secondary worlds. I'm your host, Andrew Snyder, 3 00:00:16.120 --> 00:00:24.719 and I am always grateful for your company. Hey there, Today, 4 00:00:24.760 --> 00:00:28.280 I'm joined by Thomas Lerno and Chase Errington to discuss 5 00:00:28.320 --> 00:00:31.160 the next set of readings from the poetic Euto, and 6 00:00:31.199 --> 00:00:41.799 so let's go ahead and jump right into that. All right, Well, 7 00:00:41.840 --> 00:00:44.679 welcome back to our latest at a chat. As we 8 00:00:45.399 --> 00:00:48.079 cover a number of texts, I'm just saying that we 9 00:00:48.359 --> 00:00:52.119 have a lot of short texts here, which makes it 10 00:00:52.119 --> 00:00:55.159 a little bit difficult for me at least to remember 11 00:00:55.359 --> 00:00:57.399 what's going on each one, and so hopefully you guys 12 00:00:57.439 --> 00:01:01.560 can help me out on that. Starting off with a 13 00:01:01.640 --> 00:01:04.480 short poem about Ziggard, and so we're continuing to deal 14 00:01:04.560 --> 00:01:10.000 with the Volsong saga kind of material, especially focusing around Ziggurd, 15 00:01:10.040 --> 00:01:12.920 and then we're going to move into what happens after 16 00:01:12.959 --> 00:01:18.840 his death with his wife Gudrun and her various exploits 17 00:01:18.879 --> 00:01:22.519 and with her brothers and whatnot. So in the short 18 00:01:22.560 --> 00:01:25.840 poem about Ziggurd, we're getting another look at the death 19 00:01:25.879 --> 00:01:31.040 of Ziggurd and what happens with Brinhild his wife, or 20 00:01:31.120 --> 00:01:34.519 not his wife, his should have been wife, because you know, 21 00:01:34.560 --> 00:01:37.000 Ziggurd had been engaged with her. He was betrothed to 22 00:01:37.159 --> 00:01:41.000 this valkyrie Brinhild. But then, through really no fault of 23 00:01:41.040 --> 00:01:44.000 his own, aside from the general curse that's kind of 24 00:01:44.000 --> 00:01:48.519 following the treasure that he liberated from Foffnir, he is, 25 00:01:48.760 --> 00:01:53.480 he takes this forgetting potion, and so he forgets Brinhild, 26 00:01:53.760 --> 00:01:56.239 forgets his relationship he had with her, and he ends 27 00:01:56.319 --> 00:02:01.599 up marrying Gudrun. Her brother. Gunnar, however, ends up marrying Britnheild, 28 00:02:02.719 --> 00:02:05.719 and so Britainhild. She never really gets over this because 29 00:02:06.000 --> 00:02:07.680 she wants to be with Ziggard. I mean, he's this 30 00:02:07.719 --> 00:02:10.240 great warrior, he's the one who's accomplished these great things, 31 00:02:10.599 --> 00:02:13.439 and she was only supposed to marry the greatest man 32 00:02:13.479 --> 00:02:15.840 in the world or something of that nature, and so 33 00:02:15.919 --> 00:02:19.639 she's never gotten over the situation, and so out of rage, 34 00:02:19.639 --> 00:02:23.520 out of envy, she plots to have Ziggard killed, but 35 00:02:23.599 --> 00:02:28.120 then she laments that he was killed and basically kills 36 00:02:28.120 --> 00:02:32.719 herself and lament and that sets up really this this 37 00:02:32.800 --> 00:02:36.400 poem that we're dealing with, as well as the rest 38 00:02:36.400 --> 00:02:42.360 of what follows in these texts. What thoughts do you 39 00:02:42.560 --> 00:02:44.680 have about this, whether it be any of that in 40 00:02:44.719 --> 00:02:47.159 the background, or anything that stood out to you from 41 00:02:47.159 --> 00:02:48.960 this particular poem. 42 00:02:51.759 --> 00:02:55.840 It reminded me a lot of Greek tragedies that I've read, 43 00:02:56.919 --> 00:02:59.560 you know, there seems to be this similar sort of 44 00:03:01.560 --> 00:03:06.919 pagan obsession with these family feuds, you know, and and 45 00:03:06.960 --> 00:03:10.919 how they're almost faded to happen, or or literally faded 46 00:03:11.000 --> 00:03:14.919 to happen. Whether it's the in the Greek myths, it 47 00:03:14.960 --> 00:03:18.680 seems to be the gods that are often driving people 48 00:03:18.800 --> 00:03:21.759 to fight against one another and do these things. And 49 00:03:21.840 --> 00:03:24.840 but I notice in a lot of these stories it 50 00:03:24.919 --> 00:03:27.759 can be the acier meddling in people's affairs, but a 51 00:03:27.759 --> 00:03:32.639 lot of times it's just this sort of faceless idea 52 00:03:32.840 --> 00:03:37.520 of fate, you know, and that your your your destinies 53 00:03:37.560 --> 00:03:42.560 are already written. Like sometimes it's it's personified in the norns, 54 00:03:42.719 --> 00:03:46.639 but like very rarely, like they mostly just refer to fate. 55 00:03:47.319 --> 00:03:52.280 But yeah, it's like I I it, and it kind 56 00:03:52.280 --> 00:03:54.280 of I feel like this is almost like lived on 57 00:03:55.120 --> 00:03:59.360 past the pagan period in like some of the Shakespearean tragedies, 58 00:03:59.400 --> 00:04:03.560 but like it was reminding me of both those those 59 00:04:03.639 --> 00:04:07.879 strains of sort of tragic drama over the centuries. We 60 00:04:08.000 --> 00:04:10.000 have a lot of these same themes recurring. 61 00:04:11.400 --> 00:04:16.720 Yeah, and to Brinhild, she is obviously driven by deep passion, 62 00:04:17.160 --> 00:04:20.720 but she also feels like she's not really making a 63 00:04:20.959 --> 00:04:25.879 choice here, this is what has to happen. In verse seven, 64 00:04:25.920 --> 00:04:29.480 here she says the words I'm speaking now, I'll be 65 00:04:29.560 --> 00:04:32.279 sorry for later, So she recognizes this is not a 66 00:04:32.279 --> 00:04:37.360 good plan to have her beloved Zigger, to have them killed, 67 00:04:37.639 --> 00:04:40.199 but she says I'll be sorry for later. Gudrun is 68 00:04:40.199 --> 00:04:44.279 his wife, and I am Gunnar's The hateful Norns decreed 69 00:04:44.360 --> 00:04:46.920 this long torment for us, so that we have the 70 00:04:46.959 --> 00:04:50.240 idea of, you know, the fates have decided, this is 71 00:04:50.279 --> 00:04:51.720 how things are going to play out, and I don't 72 00:04:51.720 --> 00:04:53.040 Eve don't really have any choice in the matter. 73 00:04:55.920 --> 00:04:59.000 Yeah, it's almost like she's overcome with like a like 74 00:04:59.040 --> 00:05:05.439 an envious, like blood less kind of like wanting for 75 00:05:05.519 --> 00:05:08.120 it to happen, but then also being in sorrow. I 76 00:05:08.160 --> 00:05:10.279 like that connection with the Greek tragedy. It seems like 77 00:05:10.279 --> 00:05:13.680 there's a lot of just like fated to be but 78 00:05:13.839 --> 00:05:16.040 faded not to be, or something gets in a way 79 00:05:16.879 --> 00:05:17.639 and a lot of these. 80 00:05:19.120 --> 00:05:23.680 Yeah, it's kind of interesting that Kinkery Guarden talks about 81 00:05:23.680 --> 00:05:27.199 this actually in the concept of anxiety. He says that 82 00:05:27.240 --> 00:05:34.680 the Pagans were principally anxious regarding fate, whereas Christian anxiety 83 00:05:34.800 --> 00:05:37.839 kind of takes a new form where now it's oriented 84 00:05:37.839 --> 00:05:42.639 not towards fate, but fate gets transmuted into providence, where 85 00:05:43.360 --> 00:05:46.759 we still have this belief that in large part things 86 00:05:46.759 --> 00:05:49.319 are going to happen as they're going to happen. However, 87 00:05:49.399 --> 00:05:54.000 it's not aimless, it's not empty, it's not materialistic. And 88 00:05:54.279 --> 00:05:58.839 even though we do get the personality of the norms here, 89 00:05:59.319 --> 00:06:01.800 I mean even and they really are just sort of fate, 90 00:06:02.040 --> 00:06:05.079 like there's a personification of fate as this raw, almost 91 00:06:05.079 --> 00:06:09.800 materialistic kind of reality, whereas you know, when it gets 92 00:06:09.800 --> 00:06:13.439 transmuted into to Christian belief, well, now of course we 93 00:06:13.759 --> 00:06:17.040 believe that there's actually a mind, there's intentional will, there's 94 00:06:17.040 --> 00:06:19.879 an intentional design a place, and it's not just things 95 00:06:19.959 --> 00:06:23.199 unfolding as they're going to unfold. There's an actual living 96 00:06:23.240 --> 00:06:29.079 reason behind it. Got an interesting side note, I do 97 00:06:29.120 --> 00:06:35.879 you think it's a good demonstration of their priority on. 98 00:06:36.319 --> 00:06:39.399 Oaths, and so yes, I noticed that. 99 00:06:40.600 --> 00:06:44.839 Yeah. So Gunnar at first, when he's told by his 100 00:06:44.959 --> 00:06:47.759 wife brin Hill to go and kill Ziggerd, he's distraught. 101 00:06:47.839 --> 00:06:50.000 He's like, I swore an oaths to this man, like 102 00:06:50.240 --> 00:06:52.800 I'm in his surface, I can't do this thing. And 103 00:06:52.839 --> 00:06:55.120 so a person, he's angry and he's cast down, and 104 00:06:55.240 --> 00:06:57.279 like he said, no, okay, do I do issue once? 105 00:06:57.319 --> 00:07:00.199 Do I do what is in line with my oas 106 00:07:00.279 --> 00:07:02.160 that I've made, And then he comes up with like 107 00:07:02.199 --> 00:07:05.759 a loophole and says, let's get our younger brother, who 108 00:07:05.959 --> 00:07:07.639 you know at the time we swore oaths to Ziggard. 109 00:07:07.639 --> 00:07:09.560 I mean, he was too young, so he didn't swear 110 00:07:09.560 --> 00:07:11.759 any oaths since he came to do it. And so 111 00:07:11.800 --> 00:07:14.399 he tries to find this loophole, which I guess gets 112 00:07:14.439 --> 00:07:14.959 him out of it. 113 00:07:17.399 --> 00:07:21.199 Yeah, I noticed that in you know, I think in 114 00:07:21.600 --> 00:07:24.639 one of the later references, I think it stands as seventeen, 115 00:07:25.040 --> 00:07:28.079 where Hogney says it is not fitting for us to 116 00:07:28.480 --> 00:07:31.920 do this cutting asunder with a sword the oaths we've sworn, 117 00:07:32.000 --> 00:07:36.040 the pledge is made. So there's this kind of and 118 00:07:37.600 --> 00:07:40.160 it kind of reminds me of Tolkien. Where you know, 119 00:07:40.360 --> 00:07:46.279 oaths are literally binding, that there are personal consequences to 120 00:07:46.399 --> 00:07:51.399 you if you break an oath that you've sworn, and 121 00:07:51.519 --> 00:07:54.480 the that's clearly coming I think from a lot of 122 00:07:54.519 --> 00:07:58.519 these Norse sagas. They have this you know, belief that 123 00:07:58.600 --> 00:08:01.600 it's like, you know, break an oath and it's gonna 124 00:08:01.600 --> 00:08:05.959 rebound back on to you, you know, almost almost like 125 00:08:06.199 --> 00:08:09.279 a kind of wheel of karma, I guess. But yeah, 126 00:08:09.480 --> 00:08:12.040 I like how they get this other fella, their their 127 00:08:12.079 --> 00:08:14.360 younger brother. I think he said who it was, and 128 00:08:14.399 --> 00:08:21.439 then he he has this very tragic comic death like 129 00:08:22.480 --> 00:08:26.199 this stands A twenty three. He attacks Sigurd in his 130 00:08:26.399 --> 00:08:30.120 bed in this version. There seems to be several versions 131 00:08:30.160 --> 00:08:33.720 of how Sigurd died across these, but in this one, 132 00:08:33.840 --> 00:08:37.399 they cowardly attack him in his bed. But Sigurd, I guess, 133 00:08:37.440 --> 00:08:41.240 wakes up like just as he's being killed and kills 134 00:08:41.279 --> 00:08:44.559 the other guy. Says his enemy parted into two pieces, 135 00:08:45.240 --> 00:08:48.639 arms and head dispatched in one direction, and the leg 136 00:08:48.679 --> 00:08:55.639 half landed backwards, and they mentioned it yeah slapstick, you know. 137 00:08:55.840 --> 00:09:02.000 Just yeah, yeah, it's so he takes his sword, the Grom, 138 00:09:02.120 --> 00:09:05.240 and he just throws it and slices the guy in two. 139 00:09:06.759 --> 00:09:10.600 That's quite with the scene. 140 00:09:09.799 --> 00:09:12.559 Prototype of the Star Wars Lightsaber throw. 141 00:09:13.559 --> 00:09:19.639 Right, I don't recall this Guthorm guy. I don't recall 142 00:09:19.720 --> 00:09:22.159 him making an appearance other than in this scene in 143 00:09:22.159 --> 00:09:25.039 the various ways that it's told. So he's like he's 144 00:09:25.039 --> 00:09:27.039 a the red Shirt, right, he gets thrown in there 145 00:09:27.360 --> 00:09:28.759 just for the situation so he can die. 146 00:09:28.840 --> 00:09:29.000 Yeah. 147 00:09:33.240 --> 00:09:36.440 And also like in this version, you know, Gudron is 148 00:09:36.480 --> 00:09:40.279 sleeping with him when he's killed, and she goes through 149 00:09:40.320 --> 00:09:45.320 this you know, very like like loud and demonstrative, you know, 150 00:09:47.120 --> 00:09:50.240 grief and lament, and then in other versions it said 151 00:09:50.279 --> 00:09:54.679 like she could barely grieve for it. She's almost catatonic. 152 00:09:55.759 --> 00:09:59.600 So again, it's interesting how the different versions, the different 153 00:10:00.639 --> 00:10:04.519 traditions that are being collected together. And I guess this 154 00:10:04.720 --> 00:10:07.279 codex that was put together of a lot of these myths, 155 00:10:07.600 --> 00:10:10.600 you can see the different strains of the tradition sometimes 156 00:10:10.600 --> 00:10:11.559 contradict each other. 157 00:10:13.279 --> 00:10:18.159 Yeah, and so both obviously deal with an intense kind 158 00:10:18.200 --> 00:10:22.240 of lament, just taking very different forms. 159 00:10:22.799 --> 00:10:26.559 Yeah, yeah, good, I just saw that, like, you know, 160 00:10:26.639 --> 00:10:28.879 from having read like the pros Eda and then also 161 00:10:28.960 --> 00:10:33.679 the vols Sega. It was. It is different to see 162 00:10:33.759 --> 00:10:36.480 kind of how they all either filled in the blanks 163 00:10:36.600 --> 00:10:41.679 or didn't fully know another tradition of what they had said, 164 00:10:42.279 --> 00:10:46.000 going so far as like SIGFRIEDA and Britain Hild and 165 00:10:46.080 --> 00:10:49.519 kind of like mismatching them together, and then not just 166 00:10:49.559 --> 00:10:57.240 so weird. Speaking of the oaths and Tolkien, I've been 167 00:10:57.279 --> 00:11:02.720 reading the Cimmarillion, so it's definitely, yeah, getting some good connections. 168 00:11:02.759 --> 00:11:04.559 There was reading that some yesterday. 169 00:11:05.879 --> 00:11:08.399 Oh yeah, I mean the whole driving force of the 170 00:11:08.480 --> 00:11:12.399 Oath of feyan Ore and yeahs definitely play a driving 171 00:11:12.480 --> 00:11:15.639 role in that text. And then I mean, of course 172 00:11:15.639 --> 00:11:17.159 you get to Lord of the Rings and you've got 173 00:11:17.159 --> 00:11:19.240 the men of done Harrow right, the Army of the Dead, 174 00:11:19.320 --> 00:11:23.440 and so definitely play an important role in Tolkien's writing. 175 00:11:23.480 --> 00:11:26.679 And I'm sure there's very much drawn from the Germanic 176 00:11:26.720 --> 00:11:33.159 tradition that we're pulling from right now, anything else from 177 00:11:33.200 --> 00:11:36.039 this poem before we move on, and we probably spent 178 00:11:36.120 --> 00:11:37.799 a lot of time in any one poem, but there's 179 00:11:37.799 --> 00:11:39.480 anything else they feel like bringing up here. 180 00:11:40.879 --> 00:11:43.519 I think just it is interesting to see that the 181 00:11:43.559 --> 00:11:46.960 difference of like how she's kind of like bloodthirsty at 182 00:11:47.000 --> 00:11:51.080 the beginning, and then at the end she's like wanting 183 00:11:51.120 --> 00:11:53.840 to make sure that he's not going to make it 184 00:11:53.879 --> 00:11:57.679 too far before her, you know, like in. 185 00:11:57.600 --> 00:12:05.039 Death, yeah, into in even in death, she's going to 186 00:12:05.080 --> 00:12:06.360 be She's not gonna let him go. 187 00:12:07.320 --> 00:12:10.440 Yeah. 188 00:12:10.840 --> 00:12:14.960 Yeah. Something about her suicide was very Greek tragedy to me, 189 00:12:15.799 --> 00:12:20.159 where it's like I've done this, this this thing, and 190 00:12:20.240 --> 00:12:23.679 now I'm I'm also going to kill myself, you know, 191 00:12:23.799 --> 00:12:26.320 to sort of make the you know, the circle is 192 00:12:26.360 --> 00:12:29.879 now complete, this sort of circle of violence has to 193 00:12:29.919 --> 00:12:30.840 resolve itself. 194 00:12:32.480 --> 00:12:41.320 Yeah, reminds me of I can't remember Ziggurd's sister, Zigny 195 00:12:41.600 --> 00:12:44.440 is that if mixing my names, but from the vols 196 00:12:44.480 --> 00:12:48.519 on Takaiggurd's sister who goes off and marries that other 197 00:12:48.720 --> 00:12:51.200 terrible king who ends up, you know, killing off all 198 00:12:51.240 --> 00:12:56.360 of Zigger's brothers that you know, she she also in 199 00:12:56.440 --> 00:12:58.799 potty revenge against her husband, against the king. You know, 200 00:12:58.799 --> 00:13:01.519 she ends up she off her own children and just 201 00:13:01.559 --> 00:13:04.879 like does all this conspiracy and the end of the day, 202 00:13:04.919 --> 00:13:07.919 once she finally kills the king, she just embraces the 203 00:13:07.919 --> 00:13:10.720 flames of the castle around her. And so this is 204 00:13:10.799 --> 00:13:14.639 kind of an ongoing theme here of a woman trying 205 00:13:14.639 --> 00:13:17.440 to make something right in her eyes and then it 206 00:13:17.559 --> 00:13:22.200 just ends in blood and or fire and self destruction. 207 00:13:22.480 --> 00:13:29.679 Yeah right, Yeah, that's kind of recurring theme. Like throughout 208 00:13:29.679 --> 00:13:31.440 a lot of these poems that we're looking at, we're 209 00:13:31.440 --> 00:13:37.240 dealing with a woman in lament, and sometimes it's just limitation. 210 00:13:37.559 --> 00:13:45.559 Sometimes it takes extraordinary form, like with Brien Healed. But 211 00:13:45.600 --> 00:13:48.120 there is some some brightness. I mean, this is a 212 00:13:48.200 --> 00:13:50.639 very dark kind of it's a very dark poem that 213 00:13:50.840 --> 00:13:53.440 garden the content of what's happening here, but there is 214 00:13:53.639 --> 00:13:56.799 some hope here in fifty five where it says a 215 00:13:56.840 --> 00:13:59.200 girl will be born, her mother will raise her more 216 00:13:59.279 --> 00:14:02.279 radiant than the right day. Von Hild will be than 217 00:14:02.360 --> 00:14:05.639 a ray of the sun. And so you know, even 218 00:14:05.679 --> 00:14:10.080 though Ziggurd's dying, Gudrun is going to have and going 219 00:14:10.120 --> 00:14:15.080 to raise Ziggurd's daughter, who is going to be a 220 00:14:15.320 --> 00:14:18.600 bright ray that she is going to have. This there's 221 00:14:18.759 --> 00:14:21.120 some light coming out of even this dark tail, and 222 00:14:21.159 --> 00:14:23.679 that's going to move forward into the rest of the 223 00:14:24.000 --> 00:14:28.519 Volsung story. With Ziggurd not having a male heir at 224 00:14:28.519 --> 00:14:30.600 this point, she is really going to carry on the 225 00:14:30.879 --> 00:14:38.559 Vulsung identity moving forward, although it doesn't go much further 226 00:14:39.159 --> 00:14:41.240 before the volsung A totally wiped out, but there's at 227 00:14:41.320 --> 00:14:47.200 least some momentary hope. Speaking of hope, moving on to Britain, 228 00:14:47.240 --> 00:14:48.039 Hild's ride to Hell. 229 00:14:56.159 --> 00:14:59.759 Yeah, of course this is the Norse hell rather than 230 00:14:59.799 --> 00:15:01.200 the the Christian Hell? 231 00:15:01.679 --> 00:15:04.159 Correct? Correct? Is the North held the place of the dead, 232 00:15:04.320 --> 00:15:08.960 not not the Christian Hell. It's kind of interesting. So 233 00:15:09.320 --> 00:15:14.320 so brin Hild here dead. Brinhild is going on her 234 00:15:14.360 --> 00:15:19.840 way when she's stopped by what it was a giantess. 235 00:15:19.879 --> 00:15:23.759 Yeah, also called an ogress at the end, right, right. 236 00:15:23.840 --> 00:15:29.159 So she stopped by this ogress and basically they have 237 00:15:29.279 --> 00:15:33.120 this little spat with each other and goes on her 238 00:15:33.120 --> 00:15:37.360 way to Hell. I don't, I don't. I'm not really 239 00:15:37.360 --> 00:15:38.320 sure what to make of this. I don't know if 240 00:15:38.360 --> 00:15:39.679 you guys have any deep insights. 241 00:15:40.399 --> 00:15:41.759 It was a funny vignette. 242 00:15:42.960 --> 00:15:44.519 Yeah, that's that's about what I got from it. 243 00:15:45.360 --> 00:15:47.840 Yeah, I think the one thing that kind of stood 244 00:15:47.840 --> 00:15:50.679 out was just how it you know what. Earlier it 245 00:15:50.720 --> 00:15:56.519 talks about Cigaurd being like a Southern man in a 246 00:15:56.559 --> 00:16:00.000 lot of ways, and then here it says the Danish 247 00:16:00.480 --> 00:16:05.519 Viking among the retinue. So it's like even even in 248 00:16:05.600 --> 00:16:07.600 these it's kind of like fixing it, like, no, he's 249 00:16:07.600 --> 00:16:14.039 actually Danish, He's not like Frank or whatever. It's just weird. 250 00:16:15.120 --> 00:16:18.840 Yeah, and and I do I think that background changes 251 00:16:19.080 --> 00:16:22.639 a couple of times. Yeah, and so that that's interesting. 252 00:16:23.480 --> 00:16:26.639 There is a connection here. I mean, at this point 253 00:16:26.679 --> 00:16:29.440 we've been so far, I'm forgetting. I'm jumbling together a 254 00:16:29.480 --> 00:16:32.960 lot of the names from from previous texts, but the 255 00:16:32.960 --> 00:16:37.480 the original story of the the the valkyrie and the 256 00:16:37.519 --> 00:16:43.519 guy who oh, man, what are their names? The proto 257 00:16:43.879 --> 00:16:51.759 Zigger person a. Man, I'm trying to blank. But then 258 00:16:51.960 --> 00:16:57.120 I gotta I gotta bee ter real fast. I don't know, 259 00:16:57.159 --> 00:17:00.960 it's okay. But long before you know, most of these 260 00:17:01.000 --> 00:17:02.679 texts that we're looking at, you know, there was a 261 00:17:02.759 --> 00:17:12.599 story of the valkyrie, oh Zigarifa anyways, and you know 262 00:17:12.680 --> 00:17:15.279 she and her lover, you know, he dies and she 263 00:17:15.359 --> 00:17:18.440 goes into this lament, and then we're told that potentially 264 00:17:18.480 --> 00:17:22.279 they reincarnated into Ziggurd and Brinhild, and so we get 265 00:17:22.279 --> 00:17:25.559 this repetition of ideas here, and in Brinhild's Ride to Hell, 266 00:17:26.039 --> 00:17:29.480 there is this mention of this kind of connection here 267 00:17:29.519 --> 00:17:32.519 between some of the background as Brainhild telling her story, 268 00:17:32.799 --> 00:17:36.559 where she does intertwine herself with this original story, kind 269 00:17:36.599 --> 00:17:39.799 of confirming this idea that we're dealing with repetition here, 270 00:17:39.960 --> 00:17:42.200 we're dealing with the same kind of story repeating itself 271 00:17:42.240 --> 00:17:47.359 over time. So that's that's kind of interesting. And then 272 00:17:47.440 --> 00:17:51.039 at the end here in verse fourteen, she says, men 273 00:17:51.079 --> 00:17:53.880 and women, those who are living must spend all too 274 00:17:53.960 --> 00:17:57.680 long and terrible sorrow, but we shall live fully all 275 00:17:57.759 --> 00:18:01.839 our time together. Ziggard and I now ogriss sink. So 276 00:18:02.720 --> 00:18:06.640 she has this hope that now finally in death she 277 00:18:06.720 --> 00:18:10.440 can actually be united with Sigurd. I mean, I guess 278 00:18:10.480 --> 00:18:12.559 you know his his wife Gudrun is still on the 279 00:18:12.640 --> 00:18:14.400 land of living, so now she can go at all 280 00:18:14.400 --> 00:18:19.640 to herself. It's, like I said, very dark, kind of 281 00:18:19.680 --> 00:18:20.839 demented sort of romance. 282 00:18:22.200 --> 00:18:23.680 It was. That's who it was. 283 00:18:23.960 --> 00:18:26.279 That's that's a that's what I was looking for. Yes, 284 00:18:30.079 --> 00:18:37.599 anything just from this one, all right. Moving on, there's 285 00:18:37.640 --> 00:18:41.319 a short prose section on the death of the New Flumes, 286 00:18:41.799 --> 00:18:48.519 which basically Gunnar and Hogny, the brothers of Gudrun, so 287 00:18:48.640 --> 00:18:52.400 brothers in law of of Sigurd. Basically they get the 288 00:18:52.400 --> 00:18:58.279 treasure that liberated from Fafnir, and that's the gist of 289 00:18:58.279 --> 00:19:01.680 what happens there. That does set up where things are 290 00:19:01.680 --> 00:19:06.200 going to go. Now, anything you wanted to say about that, 291 00:19:06.839 --> 00:19:07.640 now we can just move on. 292 00:19:08.359 --> 00:19:13.119 Just could curse treasure, you know, it's right, So it's 293 00:19:13.160 --> 00:19:15.359 like it was cursed from when he gets it, So 294 00:19:15.559 --> 00:19:18.920 anyone that's getting it is coming to some kind of 295 00:19:19.759 --> 00:19:20.440 evil fate. 296 00:19:21.640 --> 00:19:24.680 And that that reminds me of something I've been reading recently. 297 00:19:24.799 --> 00:19:27.079 So I've been I've been going through the Book of 298 00:19:27.160 --> 00:19:33.559 Lost Tales by Tolkien, and I just finished reading the 299 00:19:33.599 --> 00:19:38.279 Tale of the nauglaph Ring, which was that dwarven necklace 300 00:19:38.400 --> 00:19:42.720 that's made with the silmarill and this, and but there's 301 00:19:42.759 --> 00:19:47.039 also cursed gold involved that's from the Horde of well 302 00:19:47.160 --> 00:19:50.720 he's not called Glowerung then, but a dragon horde basically, 303 00:19:51.279 --> 00:19:53.799 and so like it, it reminds me of that same thing, 304 00:19:53.799 --> 00:19:57.319 where like this dwarf puts a curse on the gold, 305 00:19:58.079 --> 00:20:01.559 and then Thingle, the king of Dorief, gets it, and 306 00:20:01.720 --> 00:20:07.680 all of this treachery and murder happens between elves against elves, 307 00:20:07.759 --> 00:20:11.680 dwarves against elves, elves against dwarves, all this stuff, and 308 00:20:11.720 --> 00:20:15.079 I'm like, I'm like, this is starting to sound really familiar, 309 00:20:15.119 --> 00:20:19.319 because like even with with with Faffner's Treasure, wasn't it 310 00:20:19.359 --> 00:20:23.640 originally a dwarf who puts the curse on it? 311 00:20:23.759 --> 00:20:27.440 I think it's it's almost like the the ring that 312 00:20:27.559 --> 00:20:29.319 just keeps making more and more of itself. 313 00:20:29.480 --> 00:20:37.000 It's like, yeah, right, and so yeah, definitely, I just realized. 314 00:20:37.160 --> 00:20:40.960 I just realized how close that is, or either the 315 00:20:41.519 --> 00:20:45.440 influences on the now glaffering story or the now glimires 316 00:20:45.480 --> 00:20:48.839 it would be called in later writings. It's it's really 317 00:20:49.000 --> 00:20:50.000 really obvious. 318 00:20:51.079 --> 00:20:53.880 Yeah. And so there's this idea of the the doomed treasure, 319 00:20:53.920 --> 00:20:56.279 the treasure that has a doom upon it. So we 320 00:20:56.319 --> 00:20:58.000 see that in the edit text, we see that in 321 00:20:58.039 --> 00:21:02.240 Tolkien's text, we see that in I mean even looking 322 00:21:02.279 --> 00:21:04.880 to you know, the Hobbit, right, this this is what 323 00:21:04.920 --> 00:21:08.519 attracted the dragon. It's the doom that's attached to really 324 00:21:08.559 --> 00:21:12.519 any tendency to hoard treasure. I mean, you know, as 325 00:21:12.559 --> 00:21:15.599 as Lewis tells us, sleeping on a dragon's hoard with 326 00:21:15.680 --> 00:21:17.839 dragon his thoughts tends to make one into a dragon, 327 00:21:18.240 --> 00:21:19.799 or to the very least it may summon them to 328 00:21:19.880 --> 00:21:29.119 you or in yeah exactly, or be Wolf, right, we 329 00:21:29.519 --> 00:21:32.200 get this curse that's on the treasure, and so even 330 00:21:32.240 --> 00:21:35.279 when be Wolf liberates the treasure from the dragon, it 331 00:21:36.119 --> 00:21:41.400 doesn't do them any good. That they're still doomed. And 332 00:21:41.440 --> 00:21:46.519 so there's question to be raised, like should he should 333 00:21:46.519 --> 00:21:49.960 the treasure have even been liberated to begin with, And 334 00:21:50.039 --> 00:21:53.519 so there's this this warning in the Anglos Accon literature, 335 00:21:53.519 --> 00:21:56.519 in the Germanic literature, in Tolkien's literature, there's just warning 336 00:21:56.640 --> 00:22:00.799 about treasure, which I think is interesting in a culture 337 00:22:00.960 --> 00:22:06.960 that's so valued treasure that that's like they recognized where 338 00:22:07.400 --> 00:22:10.720 these tendencies can go wrong, and there's some warnings there 339 00:22:10.759 --> 00:22:17.400 even in the Pagan writings. Okay, so moving on here 340 00:22:17.400 --> 00:22:21.160 to the second poem of Gudrun. This is consists of 341 00:22:21.200 --> 00:22:29.160 Gudrun lamenting her woes to this king Theodoric, and she 342 00:22:29.279 --> 00:22:31.640 recounts kind of what happened following the death of Ziggerd, 343 00:22:32.039 --> 00:22:36.559 how she was really forced to marry Attlee, who, depending 344 00:22:36.559 --> 00:22:39.480 on which text for reading, either is a Tila the 345 00:22:39.559 --> 00:22:41.960 Hun or he's at least based off a Till of 346 00:22:41.960 --> 00:22:48.000 the Hun, but he's also the brother of Brinhild. So 347 00:22:48.279 --> 00:22:51.559 I don't know how all this works out, but so 348 00:22:51.759 --> 00:22:56.400 she's forced to mary the brother of Brimhild, and that 349 00:22:56.519 --> 00:22:59.799 just doesn't go well as you would suppose. And so 350 00:23:00.000 --> 00:23:03.400 who I mean that gets the setup? I mean, do 351 00:23:03.400 --> 00:23:04.960 you guys have anything to pull out of this? 352 00:23:07.240 --> 00:23:11.839 I got the horse like knows about Sigurd's death or 353 00:23:11.960 --> 00:23:14.240 like can sense it or something. I think this is 354 00:23:14.279 --> 00:23:19.680 an right because the horse runs from the because in 355 00:23:19.720 --> 00:23:22.319 this one Sigurd is killed at I guess an assembly 356 00:23:22.400 --> 00:23:26.559 of lords or great fighters or something like that. So 357 00:23:26.599 --> 00:23:29.279 he's not killed in his bed, but in a public place. 358 00:23:29.920 --> 00:23:34.559 And so the Gudrun goes and essentially speaks to the horse. 359 00:23:34.640 --> 00:23:39.799 It's weeping. I went to talk to Granny Grannie, that's 360 00:23:39.839 --> 00:23:43.279 the horse, cheeks wet with tears. I asked the horse 361 00:23:43.319 --> 00:23:47.000 for news. Grannie dropped his drooped his head, then hid 362 00:23:47.039 --> 00:23:49.519 it in the grass. The horse knew that his master 363 00:23:49.799 --> 00:23:50.319 was no more. 364 00:23:52.799 --> 00:23:55.599 Right, so she sees his horse and she asks, you 365 00:23:55.599 --> 00:24:02.160 know why the long face right? Sorry? I I'm so sorry. 366 00:24:03.319 --> 00:24:04.960 You know, with an extra kid of the house, I've 367 00:24:04.960 --> 00:24:05.960 got extra the dad jokes. 368 00:24:05.960 --> 00:24:13.319 Now, So from the notes, it was saying that Theodric 369 00:24:13.640 --> 00:24:20.680 was loosely connected with the historic Theodric the Great. It's 370 00:24:20.720 --> 00:24:24.559 just interesting seeing that, and like Attila and all these 371 00:24:24.599 --> 00:24:27.079 people that are just like, I'm sure they heard him 372 00:24:27.519 --> 00:24:29.200 heard about them, and they're like, oh, this is a 373 00:24:29.440 --> 00:24:32.119 you know, a great king. We're just borrowing names. 374 00:24:31.839 --> 00:24:35.680 Sometimes, gonna bring them together. And so yeah, so Theodoric, 375 00:24:35.720 --> 00:24:39.559 he is this exiled king of Verona who took refuge 376 00:24:39.559 --> 00:24:43.519 at it Tilla's court, and so so yeah, we got 377 00:24:43.920 --> 00:24:53.400 various people being thrown together here. It's quite the sitcom. 378 00:24:53.759 --> 00:24:56.799 And so yeah, so Theodoric and Gudrin they take some 379 00:24:56.839 --> 00:25:00.680 consolation in each other because they both suffered great loss, 380 00:25:00.720 --> 00:25:04.799 and so they understand lost, understand sorrow, and so Theodoric 381 00:25:04.880 --> 00:25:08.839 understands Gudron in a way that Attlee doesn't, and of 382 00:25:08.839 --> 00:25:15.119 course this provokes some jealousy in Atae. And I think 383 00:25:15.119 --> 00:25:21.880 it's I think it's in this poem where one of 384 00:25:21.920 --> 00:25:25.200 the maids basically tells Atli, like, something's going on here 385 00:25:25.240 --> 00:25:27.079 with Gudrun and Theodoric. 386 00:25:27.759 --> 00:25:31.000 Oh yeah, I think that's third Gudroom, because I mean. 387 00:25:31.000 --> 00:25:33.200 Yeah, you're right, you're right, So I'll save that. 388 00:25:36.480 --> 00:25:39.160 I was struck in this one about how when she 389 00:25:39.400 --> 00:25:44.000 goes to lament over Zigard's corpse that you know, they 390 00:25:44.079 --> 00:25:47.359 say has already been picked over by the birds and 391 00:25:47.440 --> 00:25:52.119 the animals. And she says, in stands eleven away, I 392 00:25:52.200 --> 00:25:55.359 went from the conversation to the wood to gather the 393 00:25:55.400 --> 00:25:59.480 wolves leavings. I could not weep nor strike my hands together, 394 00:26:00.119 --> 00:26:03.200 meant my man, as other women do there. I sat 395 00:26:03.319 --> 00:26:08.680 close to death over Ziggurd. And that's a it's a 396 00:26:08.720 --> 00:26:12.000 striking contrast to the previous one where he's killed in 397 00:26:12.079 --> 00:26:15.839 bed and she has all these wild expressions of emotion 398 00:26:16.160 --> 00:26:18.759 and and literally says the opposite of this one where 399 00:26:18.799 --> 00:26:21.960 I guess clapping was like a sign of like distress 400 00:26:22.839 --> 00:26:25.839 among these people, and she she does that in the 401 00:26:25.880 --> 00:26:28.559