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<v Speaker 1>dot com. Hey you welcome back to dot net rocks.

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<v Speaker 1>Carl Franklin and I'm Richard Campbell. Yeah, so I said

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<v Speaker 1>it for me because I just like massing the pronouns.

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<v Speaker 2>I don't know why.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah. So we're talking about AI. Mark Semen is here.

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<v Speaker 1>We'll get to him in a minute, but first I

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<v Speaker 1>have a related better know a framework.

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<v Speaker 2>Awesome, It's all right, what do you got?

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<v Speaker 1>Ezra Kline is a New York Times columnist. He does

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<v Speaker 1>a great podcast called Ezra Kleinhow Yeah, I highly recommend it.

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<v Speaker 2>I don't know nobody's naming strategy, but I'll tell you

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<v Speaker 2>what his theme song on point.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah. Well, anyway, the the article or the podcast that

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<v Speaker 1>I listened to this week was how the attention economy

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<v Speaker 1>is devouring gen Z and the rest of us? Right,

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<v Speaker 1>and uh, we're going to get in into the weeds

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<v Speaker 1>here with with Mark in a bit, But I just

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<v Speaker 1>wanted to point this out as an absolute necessary, absolutely

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<v Speaker 1>necessary required listening slash reading. Even if you don't have

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<v Speaker 1>gen Z sons and daughters, or you know someone or

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<v Speaker 1>you are gen Z, this is a really good perspective

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<v Speaker 1>piece about you know, well in general, he's saying that

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<v Speaker 1>gen Z came of age during COVID, Right, Yeah, I

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<v Speaker 1>have a gen Z daughter. She Yeah, she was graduating

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<v Speaker 1>high school during COVID. She was robbed of her high

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<v Speaker 1>school senior year. She did not have any social activity

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<v Speaker 1>that whole year. Then she went off to college. Everything

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<v Speaker 1>is on zoom. All the information that she learned school

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<v Speaker 1>wise is on zoom, like anything of importance. And so

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<v Speaker 1>that kind of shapes the way the gen z Ers

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<v Speaker 1>think about things, and in particular the nihilism attitude about

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<v Speaker 1>why should I, why should I try? Why should I

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<v Speaker 1>go to college? Why should I better myself? Because the

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<v Speaker 1>AI is going to take my lunch. There's no entry

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<v Speaker 1>level jobs anymore. Like it's a very kind of a

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<v Speaker 1>dark place that the gen Zers are incause how of

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<v Speaker 1>their experience and because of what has happened in the

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<v Speaker 1>last few years, and I think, yeah, Mark is nodding

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<v Speaker 1>his head, we're going to get into this. This is

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<v Speaker 1>a good point for me to mention that I have

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<v Speaker 1>a TikTok carl at atfenex dot com, and one of

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<v Speaker 1>the first things that I've done is a video that

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<v Speaker 1>basically says, AI is no excuse. It's no excuse to

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<v Speaker 1>give up, to stop learning, to stop trying to be

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<v Speaker 1>the person that you wanted to be when you were

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<v Speaker 1>a kid, whatever it is. You know your hopes and dreams.

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<v Speaker 1>Don't give up. You know, we don't know what's going

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<v Speaker 1>to happen in the AI future. We don't know if

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<v Speaker 1>what the jobs are they are going to be available,

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<v Speaker 1>but we do know this, if you just try to

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<v Speaker 1>be the best whatever that you can be, you have

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<v Speaker 1>a better chance of surviving no matter what the AI

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<v Speaker 1>landscape is. Here's an example. You want to go into

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<v Speaker 1>a trade, let's say carpentry because that's an AI proof,

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<v Speaker 1>So you think profession. But then you think, oh, well,

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<v Speaker 1>you know the robots are going to just start building

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<v Speaker 1>houses and all that stuff, so why bother. Well, here's

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<v Speaker 1>why you should be the best carpenter that you can

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<v Speaker 1>possibly be. So that when the robots do come and

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<v Speaker 1>they're affordable, and construction people general contractors are hiring them.

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<v Speaker 1>You're the boss because you're awesome, and that's how you

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<v Speaker 1>got to be the boss, and then you can hire

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<v Speaker 1>the robots to work for you. Do you know what

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<v Speaker 1>I'm saying. I mean, it's a weird example and it

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<v Speaker 1>probably isn't going to be true anytime soon, but it's

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<v Speaker 1>no excuse to stop trying and to stop learning and

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<v Speaker 1>to just put the brakes on your life and resign to,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, flipping burgers for the rest of your life,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, unless that's what you want to do.

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<v Speaker 2>So anyway, although let's face it, flipping burgers is far

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<v Speaker 2>more automatable.

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<v Speaker 1>Yes, yes, yes, so so anyway, I highly recommend this,

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<v Speaker 1>and by the way, check out my TikTok because I

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<v Speaker 1>have a bit to say about this that will continue

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<v Speaker 1>this conversation, I'm sure. So that's when I got Richard

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<v Speaker 1>who's talking to us today?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, knowing we were going to get philosophical today. When

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<v Speaker 2>I was taking around for a comment, I grabbed one

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<v Speaker 2>off of the artificial intelligence geek out that we did

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<v Speaker 2>back in twenty fifteen, whoa ten years ago well, now,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, the other thing is to realize, why did

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<v Speaker 2>we do that? Geek out? Then, Yeah, that was the

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<v Speaker 2>time when Bill Gates and Elon Musk and Stephen Hawking

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<v Speaker 2>were all going on about AI emerging and then like,

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<v Speaker 2>we have to be careful now. Then the subtext of

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<v Speaker 2>this is that Google had successfully hired many of the

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<v Speaker 2>best minds, including guys like Jeff Hinton and so forth,

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<v Speaker 2>and they were doing some extraordinary things in a group

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<v Speaker 2>called Google Brain even then, and so really this was

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<v Speaker 2>a push for we've got to get those scientists out

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<v Speaker 2>of Google. What you were seeing was the setup that

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<v Speaker 2>would become open AI, but we didn't know that at

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<v Speaker 2>the time. It would emerge another year or two later,

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<v Speaker 2>and with all of the problems that that had attacked

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<v Speaker 2>and continues to have attached to it. Again, nobody expected

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<v Speaker 2>any of the things that have happened here.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, and Hinton famously started warning the public against general

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<v Speaker 1>AI and the things that I'm sure Mark is going

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<v Speaker 1>to be talking about too.

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<v Speaker 2>But yeah, once his shares in Google were fully vested, right, Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>so you know it should be clear.

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<v Speaker 1>Not that you're cynical about that or anything.

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<v Speaker 2>Just watching for people's motivations here. That's right, follow the money.

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<v Speaker 2>So there was a lot of comments on that show

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<v Speaker 2>because we were pretty far ahead of our time when

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<v Speaker 2>we were at that particular point. You know, we're reading

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<v Speaker 2>in a lot of the tea leaves much more science

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<v Speaker 2>fiction based, so makes it ten years all the more extraordinary, right,

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<v Speaker 2>And I grabbed this comment one of literally dozens, and

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<v Speaker 2>one of them was Mark Semens comment too. And Mark

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<v Speaker 2>probably doesn't remember either because he writes lots of comments

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<v Speaker 2>on lots of shows. But you referenced a book called

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<v Speaker 2>blind Site, Sir, which is a very interesting study and consciousness,

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<v Speaker 2>because we did go down that path twenty fifteen about

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<v Speaker 2>what's consciousness, what is sentiency, and what is intelligence that

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<v Speaker 2>kind of thing. So Tom Kirkhoff's comment, another past guest

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<v Speaker 2>of the show, he says, as you mentioned, it depends,

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<v Speaker 2>So what is artificial intelligence? People such as Bill Gates

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<v Speaker 2>are cautious with AI and tells us we should not

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<v Speaker 2>do it, But we have and we entered the era

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<v Speaker 2>where AI is in the past, Apple has Siri and

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<v Speaker 2>Microsoft has Cortana and as personal assistants who are more

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<v Speaker 2>and more integrated in all our toys. So where do

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<v Speaker 2>we draw the line. Isn't it cool to think that?

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<v Speaker 2>In twenty fifteen we Tartana. Yeah, and when I Robot

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<v Speaker 2>came out, and that's the Will Smith version of Isaac

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<v Speaker 2>Asimov's movie. We saw robots helping us as humans in

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<v Speaker 2>our day to day work, which you know, the funny

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<v Speaker 2>part is here we are with some interesting software, but

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<v Speaker 2>still build a robot that humans can be around. Is

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<v Speaker 2>that artificial intelligence? Because we can get this today in

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<v Speaker 2>some sort I don't think of remote qualifies. We have

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<v Speaker 2>robots that are capable of walking like animals. We have

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<v Speaker 2>sensors such as connect connect I remember connect that can

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<v Speaker 2>detect walls, open doors, and well, plus we have Cortana

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<v Speaker 2>and with our knowing our schedule and helping us to

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<v Speaker 2>remind stuff and look stuff up the combine this together.

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<v Speaker 2>Are we getting close to those robots? Also? Where are

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<v Speaker 2>we with laws supporting lists like getting self driving cars

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<v Speaker 2>and personal assistance and stuff? How will we protect ourselves

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<v Speaker 2>from human hackers or AI going wrong? These are all

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<v Speaker 2>interesting talking.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, you'd be happy to know nothing has happened in

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<v Speaker 1>law government to protect us from anything because they don't

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<v Speaker 1>even know what the heck is going on.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, that's not true. The EU has passed an interesting self.

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<v Speaker 1>I was talking about our government, Richard, Well, my government

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<v Speaker 1>they have no clue about AI or what to do

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<v Speaker 1>about it. So the other civilized civilizations we have a

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<v Speaker 1>little bit more to do.

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<v Speaker 2>It is I mean, we were thinking about these same

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<v Speaker 2>problems ten years ago, but with obviously some gaps, right, Like, Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>the voice assistance of ten years ago actually worked better

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<v Speaker 2>than they did in just the past couple of years

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<v Speaker 2>before the LM showed up, because they never made money. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>And as they didn't make money, their budgets got squeezed

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<v Speaker 2>tighter and tighter, and less compute resources were used on them,

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<v Speaker 2>and they degraded. And eventually, just before the LLM breakout,

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<v Speaker 2>before chatchpt, both Google and Amazon came out said hey,

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<v Speaker 2>we're cutting these groups back because they're just not doing

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<v Speaker 2>what they were intended doing with attending not being helping people,

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<v Speaker 2>but making the company money. And then of course it

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<v Speaker 2>did chatchpt lands and the whole thing's up in the

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<v Speaker 2>air and they're all scrambling. So Tom, thank you so

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<v Speaker 2>much for your comment. Great to hear from your friend

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<v Speaker 2>nine years ago, and a coffee of music. Cobe is

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<v Speaker 2>on its way to you, and if you'd like a

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<v Speaker 2>coffee of musicobe, I write a comment on the website

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<v Speaker 2>and done at rocks dot com or on the facebooks.

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<v Speaker 2>You publish every show there, and if you comment there

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<v Speaker 2>and I read in the show, we'll send you copy

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<v Speaker 2>go by Music.

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<v Speaker 1>To code by Still Going Strong. Thank you Mark Semen

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<v Speaker 1>for that idea that you gave me long those many

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<v Speaker 1>years ago. Oh that turned into music to code by

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<v Speaker 1>twenty two tracks now and you can get them an

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<v Speaker 1>MP three wave or flack of twenty five minute compositions

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<v Speaker 1>at music too coode by dot net.

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<v Speaker 3>So that's the end of analysis of music.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah pretty much? Wow? Yeah Yeah. And it's designed to

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<v Speaker 1>be in that beat per minute range that was cited

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<v Speaker 1>in the study with the baroque music the children that

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<v Speaker 1>were doing math problems when it was six between sixty

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<v Speaker 1>five and seventy two piece per minute. I think it is.

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<v Speaker 1>And it's neither too distracting nor is it too boring,

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<v Speaker 1>Like you're not going to lose your mind listening to it.

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<v Speaker 1>There is some variation in there, but nothing's going to

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<v Speaker 1>jump out and scream at you. So it works, and

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<v Speaker 1>it works for a ton of happy customers, including me.

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<v Speaker 1>All right, well, let's formally introduce Mark Mark Seamen.

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<v Speaker 2>Hmmm, we got to do nineteen sixty.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh yeah, we do. Why don't I always forget that? Richard?

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<v Speaker 1>I don't know.

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<v Speaker 2>Maybe we should let this go at some point, but

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<v Speaker 2>I kind of want to run until we get to

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<v Speaker 2>two thousand and two and we have inception.

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<v Speaker 1>I do too, Yeah, yeah, yeah. So significant events in

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<v Speaker 1>nineteen sixty included the independence of seventeen African nations, the

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<v Speaker 1>Greensboro sit ins for civil rights in the US, and

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<v Speaker 1>the first televised presidential debate between John F. Kennedy and

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<v Speaker 1>Richard Nixon.

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<v Speaker 2>MM, which went well.

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<v Speaker 1>Kennedy was very telegenic, he was you wore a dark suit,

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<v Speaker 1>and Richard Nixon blended in with the background. I remember that.

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<v Speaker 2>All these things you didn't need to think about until

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<v Speaker 2>television came along.

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<v Speaker 1>It was also marked by the U two incident, where

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<v Speaker 1>an American spy plane was shot down over Soviet airspace,

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<v Speaker 1>escalating Gary Powers old war tensions.

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<v Speaker 2>They believe that plane flew too high to be shot down,

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<v Speaker 2>and they were wrong. So what's on your list, Richard?

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<v Speaker 2>The first laser is rendered operational. A guy named Theodore

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<v Speaker 2>Maymon where can at a huge research used a synthetic

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<v Speaker 2>ruby with flash lamps based on a bunch of science

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<v Speaker 2>a group of other smart folks over the past few years.

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<v Speaker 2>But he's the guy who actually implemented coherent light. Wow

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<v Speaker 2>your DBD, thanks you Wow.

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<v Speaker 1>And shortly after that, Star Trek came online and something

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<v Speaker 1>they're using phasers because they couldn't say lasers.

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<v Speaker 2>And the very first weather satellite ever TIROS one, the

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<v Speaker 2>US satellite TIRO short for Television Infrared Observation satellite, launched

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<v Speaker 2>by aor able rocket. It had solar panels on it

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<v Speaker 2>in nineteen sixty at solar panels Wow, a wide narrow

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<v Speaker 2>angle infrared cameras and it took about twenty three thousand

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<v Speaker 2>pictures before an electrical failure after ten weeks knocked it out,

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<v Speaker 2>beginning this idea of being able to look at weather

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<v Speaker 2>at a macroscale from orbit, which is incredibly important. It's

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<v Speaker 2>amazing to think that that's only it's only been sixty

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<v Speaker 2>years of being able to do that. Yeah, it's still

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<v Speaker 2>actually in orbit. There was this electrical failure in the

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<v Speaker 2>battery system knocked it out early. Could have lasted longer,

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<v Speaker 2>but it was followed up by many more, but that

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<v Speaker 2>that began in nineteen sixty.

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<v Speaker 1>I shall also mention the pill was ratified in nineteen sixty,

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<v Speaker 1>so that ushered in a whole era of women's reproductive

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<v Speaker 1>rights and all of that.

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<v Speaker 2>Next, we're going to talk about the age of Aquarius.

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<v Speaker 1>No, no, no, come on, man, come on.

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<v Speaker 2>All works together.

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<v Speaker 1>Where would we be without the pill?

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<v Speaker 3>There?

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<v Speaker 1>You seriously, I wouldn't have gotten laid in high school.

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<v Speaker 1>I don't know about you guys. But all right, So

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<v Speaker 1>is there any other computer oriented events or computers that

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<v Speaker 1>were breakthroughs in nineteen sixty that you can.

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<v Speaker 2>No, but nineteen sixty one is a big one. So

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<v Speaker 2>hang in there, will all right, we'll talk a lot

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<v Speaker 2>about the integrated circuit, all right next week.

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<v Speaker 3>Did they start with four trend back then? Or is

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<v Speaker 3>that that's around that time maybe a little bit earlier?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, four trends already around by then.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh yeah, okay, you know, not on a you know,

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<v Speaker 2>we're talking kind of pre This is before we actually

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<v Speaker 2>have digital computers per se. Right, they're largely electrical mechanical

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<v Speaker 2>like the the uh. We have transistors, but we haven't

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<v Speaker 2>really got an integrated circuit, so the compute power is

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<v Speaker 2>not the same at all.

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<v Speaker 1>All right, So the bio that I'm going to read

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<v Speaker 1>was not written by me. It was written by Mark himself.

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<v Speaker 1>Mark Semen is a bad economist who's found a second

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<v Speaker 1>career as a programmer. He has worked as a web

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<v Speaker 1>and enterprise developer since the late nineteen nineties, and he

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<v Speaker 1>blogs regularly at blog dot plo dot dk. That's p

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<v Speaker 1>l o e h did I pronounce that writer? Is

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<v Speaker 1>it more like pl that's plur pl That's right.

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<v Speaker 3>Okay, you got that the second time around. Yeah, that's

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<v Speaker 3>pretty good. That's pretty good.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, welcome back, and uh, thank you. I just had

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<v Speaker 1>to formally introduce you there. That's even though we've been

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<v Speaker 1>talking to you for ten fourteen minutes.

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<v Speaker 3>Yes we have.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, all right, So what are your thoughts? Are you

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<v Speaker 1>fan of Ezra Klein?

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<v Speaker 3>First of all, I've I I usually used used to

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<v Speaker 3>listen to a podcast by Sam Harris and these two

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<v Speaker 3>sort of enemies, if you will, also, so I haven't

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<v Speaker 3>really listened to to Ezra Klein. But but on the

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<v Speaker 3>other hand, I think it was if Scott Fitzgerial who

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<v Speaker 3>said something like and you know, the sign of intelligence

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<v Speaker 3>is being able to hold two opposing thoughts in your

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<v Speaker 3>mind at the same time and not go insane. So

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<v Speaker 3>maybe I should. I mean, it's it also sounds like

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<v Speaker 3>he's been doing he's been on sort of Isra Klein

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<v Speaker 3>has been on some sort of journey where he's starting

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<v Speaker 3>to realize that, you know, some of the problems that

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<v Speaker 3>you just talked about here are actually really important. So yeah,

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<v Speaker 3>so maybe I should. So I haven't really been a

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<v Speaker 3>fan there, but you know, I have no beef with

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<v Speaker 3>him personally, so maybe maybe I should give it a listen.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, what about the idea of gen Z being sort

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<v Speaker 1>of caught in this vortex of impossibility?

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<v Speaker 3>That that that absolutely rings true. I have two gen

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<v Speaker 3>Z kids, and the well, the old one is old

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<v Speaker 3>enough so she's almost not a gen Z, so she's

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<v Speaker 3>she's sort of got you know, through most of this

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<v Speaker 3>stuff without too many, you know, too much impact that.

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<v Speaker 3>But the other one, he's eighteen now, and he's really

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<v Speaker 3>he's really you know, grabbed by TikTok and phones and

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<v Speaker 3>so on. So that's yeah, that's that's a bit of

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<v Speaker 3>a problem.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, I mean my kids are just that bit

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<v Speaker 2>much older that maybe they slipped past us to some degree,

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<v Speaker 2>but the the bait here, and you brought it up

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<v Speaker 2>right at the top there, Carl, is how much of

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<v Speaker 2>this is just the attention economy in general? And how

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<v Speaker 2>much of it is the impacts of the pandemic of

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<v Speaker 2>that two years of psychosis just this crazy time.

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<v Speaker 1>It was really psychosis, absolutely crazy time.

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<v Speaker 3>I think we were seeing signs of this already before.

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<v Speaker 3>I mean, was it the Senta shoop Off who wrote

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<v Speaker 3>this book about the attention economy? I think that predates

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<v Speaker 3>the the pandemics. I remember, So there were definitely people

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<v Speaker 3>talking about this, you know, even in the in the

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<v Speaker 3>twenty tens. But that's not really what we're here to

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<v Speaker 3>talk about.

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<v Speaker 1>No, no, no, is it. We're just getting started here?

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I know, but but maybe I should start with

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<v Speaker 3>an other experience I had with a young person. So

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<v Speaker 3>I was following a university course on something computer science

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<v Speaker 3>I don't exactly remember. And because I was doing that,

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<v Speaker 3>they you know, they have us do some group exercises

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<v Speaker 3>as well. So I was doing a little paper with

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<v Speaker 3>some young people and we were having a discussion about

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<v Speaker 3>how to interpret a certain algorithm, and you know, whether

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<v Speaker 3>we were in one regime or another and we couldn't

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<v Speaker 3>really agree. And then the other one he was just

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<v Speaker 3>writing on on what some DM what's it called? I

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<v Speaker 3>can't remember anyway, So we were dming back and forth and

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<v Speaker 3>he writes to me, well, but I just asked chat

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<v Speaker 3>GBT and it says blah blah blah. So I'm right ah,

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<v Speaker 3>and I'm sort of like, I don't care. I don't

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<v Speaker 3>care what Chad GBT says. I wrote back and he

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<v Speaker 3>was like, oh my god, you don't care what chat

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<v Speaker 3>GGBT says. How can you? I mean, it was that

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<v Speaker 3>was very much a generational divide there, and every time

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<v Speaker 3>we came back to that, he's sort of like, oh, yeah, Mark,

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<v Speaker 3>is this weird person who doesn't believe in everything that

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<v Speaker 3>jaduary it.

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<v Speaker 1>But you're lude you don't know anything about technology?

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, And I should probably preface I'm going to say

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<v Speaker 3>a lot of critical things about AI, but it's not

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<v Speaker 3>that I'm a complete lot eyed. I actually do see

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<v Speaker 3>that there's some you know, benefits to be gained as well,

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<v Speaker 3>but that's not what we here to talk about. So

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<v Speaker 3>if the listener gets the impression that I'm just in

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<v Speaker 3>grumby old man shouting at the cloud. It's not the

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<v Speaker 3>entire picture, but let's just pretend.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, that's besides the point.

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<v Speaker 3>Let's just pretend that that's the case.

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<v Speaker 2>Anyway, Yeah, that cloud didn't need shouting.

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<v Speaker 3>Indeed, indeed. But I keep running into this thing where

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<v Speaker 3>people are backing up their claims by saying, well, I

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<v Speaker 3>just asked you know, some chat TBT or some other

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<v Speaker 3>EI online EI system, Last Language model, whatever you want

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<v Speaker 3>to call it, and then they're using that as their

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<v Speaker 3>appeal to authority and saying, well, it's true because it's

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<v Speaker 3>it says so, And it's really hard to argue against that,

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<v Speaker 3>because if people are actually in that mindset where they

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<v Speaker 3>think that's as an authority that they can trusts, it's

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<v Speaker 3>hard to get them out of that mindset.

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<v Speaker 2>But it is actually new. This is not new to LMS,

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<v Speaker 2>no chat GBT. People have been saying the computer says

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<v Speaker 2>uh huh, yeah, since we put computers in front of people.

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<v Speaker 3>Right, Well, that's a fair argument, but I think we

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<v Speaker 3>are We're we sort of reached a new level there

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<v Speaker 3>because usually, you know, in the old days, when the

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<v Speaker 3>computer said something, it was usually correct under the count

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<v Speaker 3>take that you know, in which it would say something.

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<v Speaker 1>Right, data came out of a database somewhere.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, you would ask it about something in the database,

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<v Speaker 3>And of course you can you could have wrong data

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<v Speaker 3>inside that database, or you could have a bug in

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<v Speaker 3>the program and so on. But in general, if you

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<v Speaker 3>understood the context in which the you know, the computer

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<v Speaker 3>and the program and the software would actually be giving

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<v Speaker 3>you answers, there would be some sort of knowledge to

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<v Speaker 3>be gained. And that's not really where we are with

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<v Speaker 3>those you know, new systems, and that's it's not you know,

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<v Speaker 3>one thing is the system itself, but it's how people

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<v Speaker 3>are interacting with these sites concerned me a bit. Yeah, yeah.

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<v Speaker 3>But also the thing is that that they tend to

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<v Speaker 3>see them as oracles, is that you can go and

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<v Speaker 3>ask them about anything and then you a lot of

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<v Speaker 3>people seem to just blindly trust them. Which that's that's

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<v Speaker 3>really what concerns me here, because.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I did an experiment Mark, I asked for a

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<v Speaker 1>recommendation of a product on Amazon based on my parameters,

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<v Speaker 1>and it recommended something, and then I went it was

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<v Speaker 1>an electronic piece for electronic Here, I went on Amazon,

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<v Speaker 1>I looked at all the reviews and there was very

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<v Speaker 1>many one star reviews saying this thing overheats and then

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<v Speaker 1>goes to crap, don't buy it. So then I brought

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<v Speaker 1>that up to Chatchip. He said, you're right, let me

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<v Speaker 1>look for another one. Sound familiar. Let me look for

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<v Speaker 1>another one that doesn't overheat. Here's here's the one.

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<v Speaker 2>You want.

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<v Speaker 1>This is because it's going to satisfy this condition, that condition,

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00:21:34.319 --> 00:21:37.960
<v Speaker 1>And I said, okay, and you know it's fairly well reviewed.

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<v Speaker 1>So I bought it and it didn't work. It didn't

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<v Speaker 1>do some of the things that I asked for with

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<v Speaker 1>chat GPT, and it was vague because when I went

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<v Speaker 1>back then looked at the description didn't explicitly say this

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<v Speaker 1>thing that I needed. I just assumed that it would

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<v Speaker 1>do it because most things like this did it. So

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<v Speaker 1>I ended up returning it and something else. But it's

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<v Speaker 1>conscinary town. So yeah, it's an experiment. I wanted to

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<v Speaker 1>see if I could rather than going through the tedious

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<v Speaker 1>task of searching on Amazon and then starting by most

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<v Speaker 1>favorite reviews and reading them. Rather than doing that, I

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<v Speaker 1>just asked chapter GPT to do my bidding. And it

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<v Speaker 1>didn't work.

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<v Speaker 3>It lies, but indeed, in this in this case, you

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<v Speaker 3>were still in a scenario where you were able to

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<v Speaker 3>you're still able to verify or in this case, in

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<v Speaker 3>this case as actually falsify the claim that was made

422
00:22:35.720 --> 00:22:38.920
<v Speaker 3>by the LMS. So of course, because you were ordering

423
00:22:39.240 --> 00:22:41.640
<v Speaker 3>I assume a physical product, it took some time to

424
00:22:41.680 --> 00:22:44.799
<v Speaker 3>actually get that verification of falsification in place, but you

425
00:22:44.799 --> 00:22:48.759
<v Speaker 3>could still do that, and that's that's not even you know,

426
00:22:48.880 --> 00:22:52.640
<v Speaker 3>I'm not too concerned about people using lms in that

427
00:22:52.640 --> 00:22:54.559
<v Speaker 3>way because I actually use them like that as well.

428
00:22:54.680 --> 00:22:56.359
<v Speaker 3>You know, if I if I have a problem where

429
00:22:56.359 --> 00:22:59.759
<v Speaker 3>I can you know, I know, I don't know exactly

430
00:23:00.119 --> 00:23:01.799
<v Speaker 3>what the answer is going to be, but if I

431
00:23:01.839 --> 00:23:04.720
<v Speaker 3>get the answer, I can do a verification check and

432
00:23:04.759 --> 00:23:07.279
<v Speaker 3>then I can see if that solves my problem or not.

433
00:23:08.160 --> 00:23:11.440
<v Speaker 3>I had I've had very nice, you know, experiences with

434
00:23:11.480 --> 00:23:13.960
<v Speaker 3>the limbs that do that for me and save me

435
00:23:14.000 --> 00:23:16.599
<v Speaker 3>a ton of time. So I don't really have a

436
00:23:16.599 --> 00:23:19.279
<v Speaker 3>problem with that because you know, if you can get

437
00:23:19.319 --> 00:23:21.200
<v Speaker 3>an answer and then you can verify whether or not

438
00:23:21.240 --> 00:23:25.880
<v Speaker 3>it works, you're still on solid ground in terms of epistemology.

439
00:23:26.000 --> 00:23:28.319
<v Speaker 3>So okay, so now we said the big word here,

440
00:23:28.359 --> 00:23:31.279
<v Speaker 3>but it basically means the theory of knowledge. So how

441
00:23:31.319 --> 00:23:33.559
<v Speaker 3>do we know that we know things, why do we

442
00:23:33.599 --> 00:23:35.359
<v Speaker 3>think that we know some things?

443
00:23:35.680 --> 00:23:40.519
<v Speaker 1>I know that in the term of epistemological studies that

444
00:23:40.920 --> 00:23:45.480
<v Speaker 1>are basically just tabulating answers from people, but you don't

445
00:23:45.480 --> 00:23:51.160
<v Speaker 1>know whether or not they lied, right, the entomologic entomological studies,

446
00:23:51.680 --> 00:23:54.799
<v Speaker 1>there's another All right, I'm mixing up my words.

447
00:23:54.839 --> 00:23:57.519
<v Speaker 3>Here, go ahead, Yeah, so where we so? Yeah?

448
00:23:57.559 --> 00:23:57.599
<v Speaker 2>So?

449
00:23:57.640 --> 00:23:59.119
<v Speaker 3>But that's the on thing. So if you can ask

450
00:23:59.240 --> 00:24:01.039
<v Speaker 3>you know, a system and then get get it to

451
00:24:01.200 --> 00:24:03.400
<v Speaker 3>give you an answer that you can then later verify,

452
00:24:03.480 --> 00:24:05.880
<v Speaker 3>I think that's that sound. I don't really have a

453
00:24:05.880 --> 00:24:08.519
<v Speaker 3>problem with that. My problem is really with you are

454
00:24:09.039 --> 00:24:11.799
<v Speaker 3>asking a system to do something and you have no

455
00:24:11.920 --> 00:24:14.880
<v Speaker 3>way of verifying whether or not it actually, you know,

456
00:24:15.079 --> 00:24:17.079
<v Speaker 3>is what it is that you wanted to do. Then

457
00:24:17.279 --> 00:24:21.240
<v Speaker 3>I think now I'm getting concerned. And since we are

458
00:24:21.519 --> 00:24:24.240
<v Speaker 3>on a podcast where we usually talk about software development,

459
00:24:24.279 --> 00:24:25.920
<v Speaker 3>you know, one of the things that really concerned me

460
00:24:26.000 --> 00:24:28.279
<v Speaker 3>is when people ask you know, these systems to write

461
00:24:28.279 --> 00:24:32.200
<v Speaker 3>code for them, because but then again, you know, if

462
00:24:32.279 --> 00:24:35.400
<v Speaker 3>you if you do that, well, if you can actually

463
00:24:35.680 --> 00:24:37.960
<v Speaker 3>read through on the code and then you have an

464
00:24:37.960 --> 00:24:41.000
<v Speaker 3>idea at what you're looking at, well that might actually work,

465
00:24:41.079 --> 00:24:43.440
<v Speaker 3>but often you hear people so yeah, I know you

466
00:24:43.519 --> 00:24:47.079
<v Speaker 3>talked about vibe coding already, and and for me it

467
00:24:47.160 --> 00:24:49.920
<v Speaker 3>is a pejorative. I think it's it sounds like a

468
00:24:50.079 --> 00:24:53.039
<v Speaker 3>really really bad idea because if you don't know, if

469
00:24:53.079 --> 00:24:54.960
<v Speaker 3>you if you don't know how to code, or if

470
00:24:54.960 --> 00:24:57.880
<v Speaker 3>you ask this system to write code in a language

471
00:24:57.920 --> 00:25:01.559
<v Speaker 3>that you don't really understand, then how you know it works? Right?

472
00:25:02.200 --> 00:25:05.799
<v Speaker 4>Well, the compiler has to say if you are writing

473
00:25:05.839 --> 00:25:08.759
<v Speaker 4>in a language that actually does compile, and people are

474
00:25:08.880 --> 00:25:11.519
<v Speaker 4>using a lot of often they get it to write

475
00:25:11.640 --> 00:25:14.359
<v Speaker 4>JavaScript or Python or something like that for them, and

476
00:25:14.400 --> 00:25:16.640
<v Speaker 4>they those languages don't even compile.

477
00:25:16.920 --> 00:25:19.559
<v Speaker 1>The point is something that they don't know. Yeah, right,

478
00:25:19.960 --> 00:25:23.880
<v Speaker 1>Why would Why would I ask an l M or whatever,

479
00:25:24.160 --> 00:25:27.319
<v Speaker 1>an agent to write me an assembly program because I

480
00:25:27.359 --> 00:25:29.720
<v Speaker 1>think it's going to be faster When I don't read

481
00:25:29.720 --> 00:25:32.039
<v Speaker 1>assembly and I can't verify it, and I can't step

482
00:25:32.079 --> 00:25:33.440
<v Speaker 1>through the code, and I don't know what the heck

483
00:25:33.519 --> 00:25:36.400
<v Speaker 1>that thing does. It might look like it works, but

484
00:25:36.640 --> 00:25:39.599
<v Speaker 1>I ain't going to run that thing, right, I'm gonna

485
00:25:39.799 --> 00:25:43.720
<v Speaker 1>If you ask an agent to write code in a

486
00:25:43.799 --> 00:25:47.680
<v Speaker 1>language that you don't know how to verify, you get

487
00:25:48.319 --> 00:25:50.599
<v Speaker 1>you know, you get what you get, right, you get

488
00:25:50.599 --> 00:25:54.400
<v Speaker 1>what you pay for basically deserve it.

489
00:25:54.960 --> 00:25:59.480
<v Speaker 2>That being said, I'm now having experiences with very experienced

490
00:25:59.519 --> 00:26:03.759
<v Speaker 2>software helpers where we spend an entire day working through

491
00:26:04.440 --> 00:26:07.599
<v Speaker 2>a sprint of code that we estimated it would have

492
00:26:07.640 --> 00:26:10.279
<v Speaker 2>been six weeks worth of work, and then knocked it

493
00:26:10.279 --> 00:26:13.240
<v Speaker 2>out in a weekend using these tools. Yep, yeah, right,

494
00:26:13.359 --> 00:26:16.799
<v Speaker 2>Like but in the hands of skilled people who understand

495
00:26:16.839 --> 00:26:20.240
<v Speaker 2>what they're doing and are working hard with these tools,

496
00:26:20.880 --> 00:26:25.160
<v Speaker 2>you can get extraordinary results. Not you cancre mental results,

497
00:26:25.200 --> 00:26:27.759
<v Speaker 2>but literally weeks of working days.

498
00:26:27.880 --> 00:26:31.039
<v Speaker 1>We just heard and I don't remember if this was

499
00:26:31.079 --> 00:26:32.880
<v Speaker 1>talking to you, Richard or somebody else, might have been

500
00:26:32.920 --> 00:26:36.400
<v Speaker 1>Brian McKay that he had a guy that was in

501
00:26:36.480 --> 00:26:41.480
<v Speaker 1>a meeting, a two hour meeting about a spec and

502
00:26:41.680 --> 00:26:43.559
<v Speaker 1>about building a prototype, and by the end of the

503
00:26:43.599 --> 00:26:44.480
<v Speaker 1>meeting he had it done.

504
00:26:44.720 --> 00:26:49.319
<v Speaker 2>Right. That seems to becoming more common again known problem space.

505
00:26:49.640 --> 00:26:52.799
<v Speaker 2>You know, these these were forms over data problems, so

506
00:26:52.839 --> 00:26:56.960
<v Speaker 2>they were pretty automatical anyway, and with someone who knew

507
00:26:57.119 --> 00:26:59.839
<v Speaker 2>the tools and the language well, and they have a

508
00:27:00.079 --> 00:27:03.200
<v Speaker 2>put together assembly and their productivity is astonishing.

509
00:27:03.319 --> 00:27:06.799
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, but again, how do you measure productivity? In software development,

510
00:27:06.839 --> 00:27:10.880
<v Speaker 3>because it seems to me that we are forgetting that

511
00:27:11.960 --> 00:27:14.920
<v Speaker 3>lines of code is not a measurement of productivity, you.

512
00:27:14.920 --> 00:27:17.279
<v Speaker 2>Know, Yeah, this is delivering features to customers.

513
00:27:17.400 --> 00:27:20.240
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, and that makes a lot of sense, of course,

514
00:27:20.359 --> 00:27:24.200
<v Speaker 3>if you can measure that. But that's a whole different discussion.

515
00:27:24.240 --> 00:27:27.720
<v Speaker 3>Whether that's because one feature is not necessarily equivalent to

516
00:27:27.759 --> 00:27:30.400
<v Speaker 3>another feature. You know, some features are big and someone small.

517
00:27:30.440 --> 00:27:32.680
<v Speaker 3>But that's probably a different discussion.

518
00:27:33.079 --> 00:27:34.960
<v Speaker 2>No, but I think it's a really valid one that

519
00:27:35.160 --> 00:27:37.640
<v Speaker 2>there's a bar here that these tools seem to be

520
00:27:37.680 --> 00:27:40.440
<v Speaker 2>able to handle at a bar, and above that bar

521
00:27:40.559 --> 00:27:41.200
<v Speaker 2>they cannot.

522
00:27:41.839 --> 00:27:43.920
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, above that bar. You have to sort of break

523
00:27:43.960 --> 00:27:47.079
<v Speaker 1>it down into you know, bite sized pieces for them. So,

524
00:27:47.160 --> 00:27:51.279
<v Speaker 1>but that's how I like to work anyway, you know, Yeah, yeah, yeah.

525
00:27:51.119 --> 00:27:54.160
<v Speaker 3>Of course. But I'm still I'm still wondering whether we

526
00:27:54.240 --> 00:27:57.240
<v Speaker 3>can trust these things even if we look at them.

527
00:27:57.279 --> 00:28:00.160
<v Speaker 3>Because so we reached the story that you told, I

528
00:28:00.160 --> 00:28:02.119
<v Speaker 3>don't know exactly the details of it and so on.

529
00:28:02.240 --> 00:28:04.480
<v Speaker 3>But but one of the questions I would like to

530
00:28:04.519 --> 00:28:06.680
<v Speaker 3>ask when when people do something like that, is to

531
00:28:06.839 --> 00:28:10.079
<v Speaker 3>how do you actually know that the software works? How?

532
00:28:10.480 --> 00:28:13.480
<v Speaker 3>How did you how did you decide that that software

533
00:28:13.519 --> 00:28:18.799
<v Speaker 3>worked in that particular case. What was the decision criteria there?

534
00:28:18.920 --> 00:28:21.079
<v Speaker 2>Oh? I mean again, they'd also built a set of

535
00:28:21.119 --> 00:28:24.920
<v Speaker 2>test suites. Yeah, you know, I saw that these features

536
00:28:24.960 --> 00:28:26.720
<v Speaker 2>need to be tested this way and measure you know,

537
00:28:26.920 --> 00:28:30.680
<v Speaker 2>he did the complete coding solution, including the security evaluation,

538
00:28:30.880 --> 00:28:32.960
<v Speaker 2>like all of the different pieces. Like, you didn't just

539
00:28:33.039 --> 00:28:35.720
<v Speaker 2>spat it. This was not vibe coding. No, this was

540
00:28:35.880 --> 00:28:38.279
<v Speaker 2>a thoroughly thought out architectural solution.

541
00:28:38.599 --> 00:28:40.000
<v Speaker 3>But who wrote who wrote the tests?

542
00:28:40.000 --> 00:28:41.240
<v Speaker 2>Though? With the tools?

543
00:28:41.640 --> 00:28:43.839
<v Speaker 3>How do you why do you trust those? Then?

544
00:28:44.119 --> 00:28:47.440
<v Speaker 2>Well, because you could see the code, right, there's no

545
00:28:47.519 --> 00:28:49.960
<v Speaker 2>secrets here. Tests are pretty straightforward to understand.

546
00:28:50.119 --> 00:28:52.200
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I guess the thing that we can agree on

547
00:28:52.359 --> 00:28:54.680
<v Speaker 1>is if you let it get away from you, right,

548
00:28:54.759 --> 00:28:57.440
<v Speaker 1>and you don't follow up on every change your AI

549
00:28:57.559 --> 00:29:00.319
<v Speaker 1>is making for you and test it and on it

550
00:29:00.400 --> 00:29:04.799
<v Speaker 1>and you know, observe it, and you just let it

551
00:29:04.880 --> 00:29:07.720
<v Speaker 1>go wild, you're you're going to lose control. And so

552
00:29:07.839 --> 00:29:10.039
<v Speaker 1>staying in control, I think this is the key.

553
00:29:10.200 --> 00:29:12.359
<v Speaker 2>The question you keep asking is why do you trust it?

554
00:29:12.359 --> 00:29:16.319
<v Speaker 2>It's like, don't don't trust it? Yeah, don't know exactly. Yeah, Look,

555
00:29:16.359 --> 00:29:19.279
<v Speaker 2>I already do distributed development. I have people contributing to

556
00:29:19.319 --> 00:29:22.559
<v Speaker 2>my projects that I never meet, that I only interact with,

557
00:29:22.759 --> 00:29:26.440
<v Speaker 2>you know, through issues on GitHub. You don't trust them either, No,

558
00:29:26.640 --> 00:29:28.319
<v Speaker 2>but you evaluate the code.

559
00:29:28.519 --> 00:29:29.519
<v Speaker 3>You review the code.

560
00:29:29.640 --> 00:29:33.000
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, that's the job. But the reality is it's

561
00:29:33.039 --> 00:29:36.599
<v Speaker 2>still a force multiplier to have multiple people contributing to

562
00:29:36.640 --> 00:29:38.720
<v Speaker 2>a project. It takes less time to review code than

563
00:29:38.720 --> 00:29:39.480
<v Speaker 2>it takes to write it.

564
00:29:39.799 --> 00:29:43.400
<v Speaker 3>And I do not disagree with that. That's reasonable enough,

565
00:29:43.440 --> 00:29:47.559
<v Speaker 3>but it's still my concern is still that we you know,

566
00:29:47.599 --> 00:29:51.480
<v Speaker 3>if we have an output of code that is multiplied,

567
00:29:51.640 --> 00:29:56.680
<v Speaker 3>you know, tenfold, one hundredfold in comparison to what we

568
00:29:56.720 --> 00:30:00.279
<v Speaker 3>had a couple of years ago, then we should also

569
00:30:00.079 --> 00:30:04.039
<v Speaker 3>to have that that we should also spend that much

570
00:30:04.079 --> 00:30:07.599
<v Speaker 3>more energy on actually reviewing the things that are being produced.

571
00:30:07.599 --> 00:30:10.799
<v Speaker 3>And I'm not really getting the impression that that's the case.

572
00:30:12.640 --> 00:30:15.759
<v Speaker 1>So it's the case at my house, I can tell

573
00:30:15.799 --> 00:30:15.960
<v Speaker 1>you that.

574
00:30:16.480 --> 00:30:16.680
<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

575
00:30:18.359 --> 00:30:20.599
<v Speaker 2>Well, but again, you know, well, and this will be

576
00:30:20.720 --> 00:30:23.599
<v Speaker 2>this is also some with self fulfilling. Those who trust

577
00:30:23.680 --> 00:30:26.279
<v Speaker 2>these tools, right, will get burned. Absolutely.

578
00:30:26.519 --> 00:30:29.359
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, that's that's also what I'm what I'm concerned about.

579
00:30:29.680 --> 00:30:31.720
<v Speaker 3>And we can just hope that it's just some simple

580
00:30:31.759 --> 00:30:35.480
<v Speaker 3>forms over the data and and they're they're probably only

581
00:30:35.559 --> 00:30:39.279
<v Speaker 3>hurting the company that actually owns that software. But what if,

582
00:30:39.480 --> 00:30:42.920
<v Speaker 3>what if the actually we're beginning to see people, you know,

583
00:30:43.079 --> 00:30:48.880
<v Speaker 3>writing fly you know, h operating systems or systems for

584
00:30:49.319 --> 00:30:53.119
<v Speaker 3>controlling hardware or elevators and medical systems and so on.

585
00:30:53.240 --> 00:30:55.960
<v Speaker 3>And then I'm getting a little bit concerned here that's

586
00:30:55.960 --> 00:30:59.480
<v Speaker 3>probably not going to happen this year. But well, in

587
00:30:59.519 --> 00:31:02.359
<v Speaker 3>a couple of is we'll see, we'll see those people

588
00:31:02.359 --> 00:31:05.839
<v Speaker 3>who do use those systems at the moment, they some

589
00:31:05.920 --> 00:31:08.759
<v Speaker 3>of them will graduate to writing those kinds of systems,

590
00:31:09.200 --> 00:31:11.319
<v Speaker 3>and I'm just concerned that they're probably going to take

591
00:31:11.319 --> 00:31:12.640
<v Speaker 3>some of their bad habits with them.

592
00:31:12.880 --> 00:31:16.480
<v Speaker 2>Without a doubt, I think, yeah, let's do the break

593
00:31:16.519 --> 00:31:18.680
<v Speaker 2>and then I want to dig into the next tier

594
00:31:18.759 --> 00:31:20.920
<v Speaker 2>of this problem, which I think is the junior developer.

595
00:31:21.039 --> 00:31:23.759
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, okay, and we'll be right back after these very

596
00:31:23.759 --> 00:31:28.000
<v Speaker 1>important messages. Did you know that you can work with

597
00:31:28.160 --> 00:31:34.000
<v Speaker 1>AWS directly from your ide AWS provides toolkits for visual studio,

598
00:31:34.319 --> 00:31:38.319
<v Speaker 1>visual studio code, and jet brains rider Learn more at

599
00:31:38.319 --> 00:31:47.200
<v Speaker 1>AWS dot Amazon dot com, slash net, slash tools. And

600
00:31:47.279 --> 00:31:49.680
<v Speaker 1>we're back. It's dot at Rox. I'm Carl Franklin and

601
00:31:49.759 --> 00:31:52.519
<v Speaker 1>I'm Richard Campbell and that is Mark Seaman, and we're

602
00:31:52.559 --> 00:31:56.160
<v Speaker 1>talking about AI concerns. And just as a reminder, if

603
00:31:56.160 --> 00:31:57.759
<v Speaker 1>you don't want to hear these ads, you can pay

604
00:31:57.799 --> 00:32:01.359
<v Speaker 1>five bucks a month become a patron Patreon dot nerocks

605
00:32:01.400 --> 00:32:04.440
<v Speaker 1>dot com. You'll get a free an ad, free feed.

606
00:32:04.599 --> 00:32:05.440
<v Speaker 1>Take it away, Richard.

607
00:32:05.799 --> 00:32:07.839
<v Speaker 2>The folks that I'm seeing that will be successful these

608
00:32:07.839 --> 00:32:11.240
<v Speaker 2>tools are very experienced developers. Yeah, you know, really they've

609
00:32:11.240 --> 00:32:13.319
<v Speaker 2>spent most these days. They don't even write a lot

610
00:32:13.359 --> 00:32:15.480
<v Speaker 2>of code, and maybe they do some spikes and things,

611
00:32:15.519 --> 00:32:18.960
<v Speaker 2>but they're mostly supervising a group of developers. They are

612
00:32:19.039 --> 00:32:21.359
<v Speaker 2>the architects, you know, they run at a high level

613
00:32:21.400 --> 00:32:25.279
<v Speaker 2>of responsibility, and they're starting to see these tools act

614
00:32:25.519 --> 00:32:31.400
<v Speaker 2>as inexperienced developers under fairly strict guidance with constant code reviews,

615
00:32:31.400 --> 00:32:35.960
<v Speaker 2>but ultimately productive. And it begs a question like where

616
00:32:35.960 --> 00:32:37.680
<v Speaker 2>does the junior developer go now?

617
00:32:38.119 --> 00:32:42.079
<v Speaker 1>Right? Are we the last generation of people who came

618
00:32:42.200 --> 00:32:43.519
<v Speaker 1>up as junior developers?

619
00:32:43.759 --> 00:32:44.319
<v Speaker 2>Yeah?

620
00:32:44.599 --> 00:32:48.079
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, that's my concern too, because well, I think you

621
00:32:48.119 --> 00:32:51.519
<v Speaker 3>said it pretty well, Richard. I'm not sure that I

622
00:32:51.519 --> 00:32:53.480
<v Speaker 3>have a lot of stuff to add to that.

623
00:32:53.559 --> 00:32:58.039
<v Speaker 2>Actually, I mean, I am meeting young developers right now

624
00:32:58.079 --> 00:33:00.799
<v Speaker 2>that are pretty freaked out, and I wonder if it's

625
00:33:00.799 --> 00:33:03.279
<v Speaker 2>because we trained them poorly at this point, Like here

626
00:33:03.279 --> 00:33:05.079
<v Speaker 2>we are, this inflection point where things are changing. And

627
00:33:05.079 --> 00:33:07.160
<v Speaker 2>the funny part is when I have a conversation with

628
00:33:07.200 --> 00:33:10.039
<v Speaker 2>them about solutions, and I'm thinking back to the show

629
00:33:10.759 --> 00:33:13.319
<v Speaker 2>that we did together Carl with the Imagining Cup folks.

630
00:33:13.599 --> 00:33:15.359
<v Speaker 1>Wow, what an inspirational group.

631
00:33:15.519 --> 00:33:19.279
<v Speaker 2>Phenomenal, But you know what, they didn't care about tool stacks? Yeah,

632
00:33:19.839 --> 00:33:21.519
<v Speaker 2>do you remember there were one of the ladies asked us,

633
00:33:21.559 --> 00:33:24.319
<v Speaker 2>like you make a podcast about dot net? Like why

634
00:33:24.480 --> 00:33:25.400
<v Speaker 2>why would you do that?

635
00:33:25.960 --> 00:33:26.319
<v Speaker 1>Right?

636
00:33:27.200 --> 00:33:31.079
<v Speaker 2>Right? And I realized, like we've got old thinking. You know,

637
00:33:31.119 --> 00:33:33.559
<v Speaker 2>when it was a nine to twelve month commit to

638
00:33:33.599 --> 00:33:36.240
<v Speaker 2>get to an MVP of a piece of software, you

639
00:33:36.279 --> 00:33:38.400
<v Speaker 2>could spend a couple of weeks arguing over what stack

640
00:33:38.480 --> 00:33:40.960
<v Speaker 2>to use. Right, but with the productivity level that we're

641
00:33:41.000 --> 00:33:44.279
<v Speaker 2>talking about right now, who cares? Just take the tool

642
00:33:44.319 --> 00:33:46.640
<v Speaker 2>out for a spin. You know, there's so many different

643
00:33:47.079 --> 00:33:50.680
<v Speaker 2>there's Even before the LM showed up, it was so

644
00:33:50.799 --> 00:33:53.160
<v Speaker 2>much easier to learn a new programming environment. It was

645
00:33:53.200 --> 00:33:58.599
<v Speaker 2>so much easier to experiment that those times are getting

646
00:33:58.599 --> 00:34:00.200
<v Speaker 2>shorter and shorter, and the stacks are just not that

647
00:34:00.440 --> 00:34:03.519
<v Speaker 2>different from each other. You know, fundamentally, they still draw

648
00:34:03.559 --> 00:34:05.839
<v Speaker 2>on screens and they still communicate over the Internet. Like

649
00:34:05.880 --> 00:34:08.159
<v Speaker 2>a lot of this stuff is the same, and if

650
00:34:08.159 --> 00:34:09.679
<v Speaker 2>you focus on the solution, you're fine.

651
00:34:09.719 --> 00:34:10.280
<v Speaker 1>Like I don't.

652
00:34:10.360 --> 00:34:14.639
<v Speaker 2>I wonder if we're not actually growing the right generation,

653
00:34:15.000 --> 00:34:19.199
<v Speaker 2>next generation of software developers, because they are not hung

654
00:34:19.280 --> 00:34:21.440
<v Speaker 2>up on the stuff that we're hung up on. Well,

655
00:34:21.480 --> 00:34:24.000
<v Speaker 2>at the same time, maybe they should be. I mean,

656
00:34:24.199 --> 00:34:26.800
<v Speaker 2>so here's here's a scenario, and this came from a

657
00:34:26.800 --> 00:34:31.519
<v Speaker 2>real story that I heard from somebody. Somebody is a

658
00:34:31.719 --> 00:34:34.159
<v Speaker 2>back end dot net developer, and a full stack dot

659
00:34:34.199 --> 00:34:36.480
<v Speaker 2>net developer does the front end, does Blazer and all

660
00:34:36.519 --> 00:34:40.320
<v Speaker 2>that stuff. Somebody comes to them and says, hey, we

661
00:34:40.400 --> 00:34:43.119
<v Speaker 2>want to use React for the front end, but still

662
00:34:43.159 --> 00:34:45.320
<v Speaker 2>keep the as peanut core back end.

663
00:34:45.639 --> 00:34:48.679
<v Speaker 1>Can you do that? And they think, hey, I've got

664
00:34:48.760 --> 00:34:52.440
<v Speaker 1>chat GPT or I've got the agent and they say, yes,

665
00:34:52.760 --> 00:34:57.400
<v Speaker 1>yes I can. They know nothing about React, right, but

666
00:34:57.800 --> 00:35:02.000
<v Speaker 1>they generate all this code and it work. Would you

667
00:35:02.079 --> 00:35:05.960
<v Speaker 1>say yes? Would you say yes, I can do that,

668
00:35:06.199 --> 00:35:08.199
<v Speaker 1>or would I say no? I think you better get

669
00:35:08.199 --> 00:35:10.840
<v Speaker 1>a React programmer to run the tool.

670
00:35:11.199 --> 00:35:11.960
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I wouldn't.

671
00:35:11.960 --> 00:35:13.559
<v Speaker 2>What would you do it? Yeah? Yeah?

672
00:35:13.639 --> 00:35:16.559
<v Speaker 1>And if I did it that way, would you accept

673
00:35:16.559 --> 00:35:19.679
<v Speaker 1>the code if I didn't know anything about React?

674
00:35:20.000 --> 00:35:22.599
<v Speaker 3>Yeah? That's that's the other problem. So this reminds me

675
00:35:22.639 --> 00:35:24.960
<v Speaker 3>of of an experience I had many years ago. So

676
00:35:25.039 --> 00:35:28.800
<v Speaker 3>obviously it is because long before the ill a limbs.

677
00:35:29.079 --> 00:35:31.559
<v Speaker 3>But I was working with a with a customer of mine,

678
00:35:31.679 --> 00:35:34.280
<v Speaker 3>trying to teach them to move in small increments and

679
00:35:34.320 --> 00:35:36.400
<v Speaker 3>do test driven development and all these things that I

680
00:35:36.480 --> 00:35:41.079
<v Speaker 3>usually do, and it's actually working pretty well, you know,

681
00:35:41.119 --> 00:35:43.440
<v Speaker 3>trying to also give them an idea about how to

682
00:35:43.440 --> 00:35:45.800
<v Speaker 3>do pull requests and work in this sort of like

683
00:35:46.519 --> 00:35:50.800
<v Speaker 3>quasi open source way of working with the small, small

684
00:35:50.840 --> 00:35:54.440
<v Speaker 3>itserations and all of that. And they hadn't told me

685
00:35:54.519 --> 00:35:58.880
<v Speaker 3>that they actually had an offside group sitting in another country.

686
00:35:59.239 --> 00:36:02.880
<v Speaker 3>And you know, three weeks into my engagement with this customer,

687
00:36:02.960 --> 00:36:06.840
<v Speaker 3>I get this pull request from hell from this you know,

688
00:36:07.079 --> 00:36:09.599
<v Speaker 3>team sitting in another country because no one had told

689
00:36:09.639 --> 00:36:12.159
<v Speaker 3>them that I was actually now trying to you know,

690
00:36:12.280 --> 00:36:15.639
<v Speaker 3>change the things around, and they hadn't told me about

691
00:36:15.639 --> 00:36:18.159
<v Speaker 3>that system as well. So I get this pull request

692
00:36:18.199 --> 00:36:20.480
<v Speaker 3>and it's just like a you know, fifty thousand lines

693
00:36:20.480 --> 00:36:23.400
<v Speaker 3>of code or something like that, and I'm trying to

694
00:36:23.480 --> 00:36:26.400
<v Speaker 3>get the people that I was working with, you know,

695
00:36:26.480 --> 00:36:29.360
<v Speaker 3>going through and saying well, okay, if you write the code,

696
00:36:29.559 --> 00:36:32.559
<v Speaker 3>we need someone else to review it, and well you

697
00:36:32.559 --> 00:36:34.199
<v Speaker 3>can do it with path programming, or we can do

698
00:36:34.239 --> 00:36:35.039
<v Speaker 3>it with pull requests.

699
00:36:35.079 --> 00:36:35.719
<v Speaker 2>I don't really care.

700
00:36:35.719 --> 00:36:38.480
<v Speaker 3>I just want to have more than one person actually

701
00:36:38.760 --> 00:36:40.480
<v Speaker 3>looking at this code. And then I get this thing

702
00:36:40.519 --> 00:36:43.280
<v Speaker 3>in from the from the outside, and I'm sort of like, okay,

703
00:36:43.280 --> 00:36:45.360
<v Speaker 3>what do I do with this now, because you know,

704
00:36:45.400 --> 00:36:49.639
<v Speaker 3>the usual reaction to something like that is to say, well,

705
00:36:50.320 --> 00:36:52.760
<v Speaker 3>looks good to me, because that's what you already always

706
00:36:52.760 --> 00:36:55.480
<v Speaker 3>do with those big, big requests.

707
00:36:55.079 --> 00:36:57.400
<v Speaker 2>The classic sign of I have not read.

708
00:36:57.159 --> 00:37:01.559
<v Speaker 3>This exactly exactly. And now, fortunately I was actually, you know,

709
00:37:01.599 --> 00:37:04.159
<v Speaker 3>engaged by the CEO of the company, so I know

710
00:37:04.239 --> 00:37:08.760
<v Speaker 3>that I had I had pretty free, you know, range

711
00:37:08.800 --> 00:37:11.880
<v Speaker 3>of deciding what to do. So I wrote back and say, well, okay,

712
00:37:11.920 --> 00:37:14.199
<v Speaker 3>so I'm really sorry that you weren't in on what

713
00:37:14.320 --> 00:37:15.920
<v Speaker 3>is what it is that we're doing at the moment,

714
00:37:16.159 --> 00:37:19.119
<v Speaker 3>but I'm actually going to politely decline this pull request

715
00:37:19.119 --> 00:37:21.360
<v Speaker 3>because it's just too much. And I don't know whether

716
00:37:21.360 --> 00:37:23.519
<v Speaker 3>it works. And it's not that I don't trust you

717
00:37:23.559 --> 00:37:25.480
<v Speaker 3>in the sense that I think you have you know,

718
00:37:25.840 --> 00:37:29.079
<v Speaker 3>ill intent, but I don't even trust myself to write

719
00:37:29.280 --> 00:37:33.039
<v Speaker 3>you know, flawless code. So that's why we need someone

720
00:37:33.119 --> 00:37:35.400
<v Speaker 3>else to actually review with it, because it's part of

721
00:37:35.440 --> 00:37:39.519
<v Speaker 3>this whole you know, process of figuring out does the code,

722
00:37:39.559 --> 00:37:42.039
<v Speaker 3>does the software actually work as intended? Does the code

723
00:37:42.079 --> 00:37:43.960
<v Speaker 3>do what it is that we wanted to do, And

724
00:37:44.000 --> 00:37:46.079
<v Speaker 3>we can't do that if you just give me, you know,

725
00:37:46.159 --> 00:37:49.119
<v Speaker 3>all of that in one go. So I said, well,

726
00:37:49.159 --> 00:37:50.639
<v Speaker 3>I'm not going to take this one. But on the

727
00:37:50.639 --> 00:37:52.719
<v Speaker 3>other hand, you still have all the codes, so I'll

728
00:37:52.840 --> 00:37:54.519
<v Speaker 3>work with you and try to break it down into

729
00:37:54.519 --> 00:37:55.960
<v Speaker 3>smaller pieces and we can get.

730
00:37:55.800 --> 00:37:56.400
<v Speaker 2>It in that way.

731
00:37:56.440 --> 00:38:00.199
<v Speaker 3>So we sort of made that work. But my mind

732
00:38:00.239 --> 00:38:02.760
<v Speaker 3>here is that we're sort of in that situation now

733
00:38:02.840 --> 00:38:07.440
<v Speaker 3>where we do get you know, something that reminds us

734
00:38:07.559 --> 00:38:09.559
<v Speaker 3>of you know, the pull request from Hell. But it's

735
00:38:09.599 --> 00:38:12.320
<v Speaker 3>just like it's not written by a person anymore. It's

736
00:38:12.360 --> 00:38:17.159
<v Speaker 3>just now it's written by some statistical system. And and

737
00:38:17.199 --> 00:38:19.519
<v Speaker 3>then if you just get all of that code in

738
00:38:19.559 --> 00:38:22.480
<v Speaker 3>one big, you know chunk, you don't really you can't

739
00:38:22.519 --> 00:38:26.480
<v Speaker 3>really fit it in your head, and then you.

740
00:38:26.559 --> 00:38:31.079
<v Speaker 2>Just supplies submit a series of smaller requests exactly.

741
00:38:31.559 --> 00:38:33.519
<v Speaker 3>And if you can get these systems to do to

742
00:38:33.599 --> 00:38:37.119
<v Speaker 3>work in that way, which I suppose you could, then yeah,

743
00:38:37.199 --> 00:38:40.880
<v Speaker 3>that would that would probably help. So it's not that

744
00:38:41.000 --> 00:38:44.639
<v Speaker 3>I so that's that's actually a pretty that's actually that

745
00:38:44.719 --> 00:38:48.920
<v Speaker 3>maybe showing us a way out and trying to work

746
00:38:48.960 --> 00:38:52.719
<v Speaker 3>with LMS as though they were you know, contributors on

747
00:38:53.000 --> 00:38:55.159
<v Speaker 3>an open source project and then try to tease them

748
00:38:55.159 --> 00:38:57.159
<v Speaker 3>to do small increments that you can review.

749
00:38:57.280 --> 00:38:59.159
<v Speaker 2>Well, that's certainly the way I look at it, because

750
00:38:59.159 --> 00:39:01.400
<v Speaker 2>it's yeah, you know, more and more we're in a

751
00:39:01.400 --> 00:39:03.400
<v Speaker 2>situation where all you can do is see the code.

752
00:39:03.480 --> 00:39:06.039
<v Speaker 2>You don't really see the person, and you certainly have

753
00:39:06.079 --> 00:39:08.559
<v Speaker 2>no way to measure the qualifications. Let's face it, we've

754
00:39:08.679 --> 00:39:11.440
<v Speaker 2>almost never had a way to measure qualifications in software

755
00:39:11.760 --> 00:39:14.079
<v Speaker 2>that was meaningful in any way. In the end, the

756
00:39:14.119 --> 00:39:17.079
<v Speaker 2>code had to speak, and so if they could, you

757
00:39:17.159 --> 00:39:21.760
<v Speaker 2>have to engage with the person. Yeah, you know, there's

758
00:39:21.800 --> 00:39:23.920
<v Speaker 2>an argument here that looks just like, oh, you don't

759
00:39:23.960 --> 00:39:26.840
<v Speaker 2>have a PhD in COMMSI you can't contribute to our.

760
00:39:26.760 --> 00:39:28.199
<v Speaker 1>Project, right, which is silly.

761
00:39:28.719 --> 00:39:31.440
<v Speaker 2>In the end, let the code speak, and if you

762
00:39:31.440 --> 00:39:34.000
<v Speaker 2>can insist that the tool delivers the code in a

763
00:39:34.039 --> 00:39:37.119
<v Speaker 2>form that is viable for you to validate, because in

764
00:39:37.159 --> 00:39:40.480
<v Speaker 2>the end, it's your butt on the line, right, you

765
00:39:40.519 --> 00:39:43.039
<v Speaker 2>are the professional engineer. You're going to sign off on this,

766
00:39:43.679 --> 00:39:45.599
<v Speaker 2>then you have a chance of being able to use

767
00:39:45.599 --> 00:39:49.360
<v Speaker 2>these tools. And I you know, this seems like the

768
00:39:49.400 --> 00:39:52.639
<v Speaker 2>most solvable problem in the LLM space compared to what

769
00:39:52.679 --> 00:39:55.599
<v Speaker 2>people are talking about are playing with doing it outside

770
00:39:55.599 --> 00:39:59.239
<v Speaker 2>of software, Like, at least software has pretty good tools

771
00:39:59.239 --> 00:40:04.000
<v Speaker 2>and governments. We already have a method doing distributed programming.

772
00:40:04.079 --> 00:40:06.559
<v Speaker 2>Oh yeah, oh yeah, oh yeah, name other industries that

773
00:40:06.599 --> 00:40:07.920
<v Speaker 2>are even close to this ability.

774
00:40:08.039 --> 00:40:11.800
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, before we leave software, just there's another gotcha for

775
00:40:11.880 --> 00:40:15.719
<v Speaker 1>junior programmers that more experienced programmers won't necessarily have. And

776
00:40:15.760 --> 00:40:18.559
<v Speaker 1>I've talked about this on dot Ner Rocks before, which

777
00:40:18.639 --> 00:40:22.960
<v Speaker 1>is a junior developer will ask a question that they

778
00:40:23.000 --> 00:40:24.920
<v Speaker 1>think is the right question to ask when it might

779
00:40:24.960 --> 00:40:27.679
<v Speaker 1>not be. So they'll ask a question, you know, they'll well,

780
00:40:27.719 --> 00:40:31.840
<v Speaker 1>they'll say something like, please make me a you know,

781
00:40:31.920 --> 00:40:37.360
<v Speaker 1>a thread safe list component or list control. Let a

782
00:40:37.400 --> 00:40:40.519
<v Speaker 1>thread safe list class, right that I can use that

783
00:40:40.519 --> 00:40:43.199
<v Speaker 1>that's completely thread safe and locking and all that stuff.

784
00:40:44.199 --> 00:40:47.039
<v Speaker 1>And that's the wrong question asked, because in dot net anyway,

785
00:40:47.119 --> 00:40:50.679
<v Speaker 1>there is one in the framework. So the first question

786
00:40:50.960 --> 00:40:53.599
<v Speaker 1>that should be asked is, hey, is there a way

787
00:40:53.880 --> 00:40:56.119
<v Speaker 1>that I can use a list in a thread safe manner?

788
00:40:56.559 --> 00:40:58.920
<v Speaker 1>And then you know, if the thing is worth anything,

789
00:40:58.960 --> 00:41:01.480
<v Speaker 1>it will say yeah, well there's the spread safe collection, right,

790
00:41:02.800 --> 00:41:07.119
<v Speaker 1>But instead a junior programmer might go down the very

791
00:41:07.159 --> 00:41:11.320
<v Speaker 1>difficult path of doing one themselves because they don't know

792
00:41:11.400 --> 00:41:15.679
<v Speaker 1>what else is available. So whereas an experienced developer would

793
00:41:15.880 --> 00:41:19.519
<v Speaker 1>would know and not ask that question, and a junior

794
00:41:19.519 --> 00:41:22.639
<v Speaker 1>developer would not. Most likely this question is isn't this

795
00:41:22.760 --> 00:41:23.480
<v Speaker 1>very teachable?

796
00:41:23.639 --> 00:41:23.840
<v Speaker 3>Yeah?

797
00:41:23.880 --> 00:41:26.320
<v Speaker 1>Sure it is, but but how many hours is the

798
00:41:26.360 --> 00:41:28.960
<v Speaker 1>junior developer going to waste working on something that when

799
00:41:29.000 --> 00:41:30.840
<v Speaker 1>they you know, check it in you say, hey, you

800
00:41:30.880 --> 00:41:32.280
<v Speaker 1>know that there is something like this?

801
00:41:32.599 --> 00:41:35.719
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, again, there's a teachable moment around. Make sure you

802
00:41:35.760 --> 00:41:39.159
<v Speaker 2>ask the question what already exists and you know, yeah, we.

803
00:41:39.199 --> 00:41:42.679
<v Speaker 3>Still imagine a future version of large language models will

804
00:41:42.719 --> 00:41:45.840
<v Speaker 3>probably be able to you know, loop in that kind

805
00:41:45.880 --> 00:41:50.199
<v Speaker 3>of questioning saying, oh you're asking about this, have you

806
00:41:50.679 --> 00:41:54.360
<v Speaker 3>do you really want? You know, a ground of implementation

807
00:41:54.480 --> 00:41:56.599
<v Speaker 3>here or can you use the one that already exists?

808
00:41:56.599 --> 00:41:59.920
<v Speaker 3>Have you looked into the framework and see whether they

809
00:42:00.039 --> 00:42:03.039
<v Speaker 3>as a reusable component. I mean, I could probably imagine

810
00:42:03.079 --> 00:42:05.119
<v Speaker 3>that even if they don't do that right now, they

811
00:42:05.119 --> 00:42:08.840
<v Speaker 3>could they actually do probably be yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,

812
00:42:08.880 --> 00:42:12.000
<v Speaker 3>because it's it's a fairly common question to ask ask

813
00:42:12.079 --> 00:42:15.360
<v Speaker 3>if you're a senior developer anyway, so anybody, Yeah.

814
00:42:15.079 --> 00:42:18.480
<v Speaker 1>You may need your own implementation because it may need

815
00:42:18.519 --> 00:42:21.800
<v Speaker 1>features that the base class doesn't have or isn't extendable to.

816
00:42:22.480 --> 00:42:23.639
<v Speaker 3>So but usually not.

817
00:42:23.880 --> 00:42:27.639
<v Speaker 2>But maybe maybe now you're starting, you're already seeing in

818
00:42:27.679 --> 00:42:31.440
<v Speaker 2>these tools that you can put in and pre prompts

819
00:42:31.480 --> 00:42:34.679
<v Speaker 2>like this should be included with every prompt, right so

820
00:42:34.679 --> 00:42:37.960
<v Speaker 2>that you could see the idea of an enterprise group

821
00:42:38.559 --> 00:42:41.840
<v Speaker 2>setting a set of rules that any prompt code generation

822
00:42:42.239 --> 00:42:44.519
<v Speaker 2>has to follow these rules. But they don't always follow

823
00:42:44.519 --> 00:42:45.599
<v Speaker 2>the rules. That's the problem.

824
00:42:45.920 --> 00:42:48.480
<v Speaker 1>I don't know if you've noticed this, but in my

825
00:42:48.559 --> 00:42:51.079
<v Speaker 1>system prompts and in my user prompt if I say

826
00:42:51.159 --> 00:42:55.079
<v Speaker 1>don't do this, sometimes it will anyway. And that's just

827
00:42:55.320 --> 00:42:56.840
<v Speaker 1>that's just the way it goes.

828
00:42:57.119 --> 00:42:59.719
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and again I'll often skip things as well if

829
00:42:59.760 --> 00:43:03.400
<v Speaker 2>the gets too complex, so you still see some development

830
00:43:03.440 --> 00:43:06.440
<v Speaker 2>need to be done to do more work on validating

831
00:43:06.639 --> 00:43:07.559
<v Speaker 2>the outBut.

832
00:43:07.719 --> 00:43:11.519
<v Speaker 1>Right, yeah, all right, well I'm ready for Harry carry

833
00:43:11.559 --> 00:43:12.119
<v Speaker 1>are you guys?

834
00:43:13.559 --> 00:43:16.960
<v Speaker 2>I'm actually really excited about all this because it does

835
00:43:17.000 --> 00:43:21.280
<v Speaker 2>seem to empower more people to build software. As these

836
00:43:21.280 --> 00:43:27.039
<v Speaker 2>tools mature and they get more reliable. They said they're

837
00:43:27.079 --> 00:43:28.960
<v Speaker 2>as bad as they're going to be right now. I

838
00:43:29.000 --> 00:43:32.559
<v Speaker 2>don't see an exponential growth here. You know, we've basically

839
00:43:32.559 --> 00:43:34.840
<v Speaker 2>indexed all the Internet into these models. As it is,

840
00:43:34.920 --> 00:43:38.320
<v Speaker 2>there is no more data to consume, and so far,

841
00:43:38.960 --> 00:43:42.920
<v Speaker 2>training against stuff generated by these tools is degenerative. It

842
00:43:43.000 --> 00:43:44.320
<v Speaker 2>makes it worse, not better.

843
00:43:44.480 --> 00:43:46.639
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and most of the time that's not going to happen.

844
00:43:46.880 --> 00:43:49.599
<v Speaker 1>Like I've got confirmation that if I have a private

845
00:43:49.639 --> 00:43:54.840
<v Speaker 1>repo and I use the GitHub Copilot agent to generate code,

846
00:43:55.320 --> 00:43:58.360
<v Speaker 1>it's not going to train their models. They're not going

847
00:43:58.400 --> 00:44:00.400
<v Speaker 1>to train their models on the code that it generates.

848
00:44:00.480 --> 00:44:03.400
<v Speaker 1>In other words, my code isn't going to leak out

849
00:44:03.480 --> 00:44:08.639
<v Speaker 1>into the ether and you know somebody else is using it.

850
00:44:09.119 --> 00:44:12.559
<v Speaker 1>That's just a promise by gethub. I don't know it's true,

851
00:44:12.639 --> 00:44:13.679
<v Speaker 1>but that's a promise.

852
00:44:13.760 --> 00:44:16.239
<v Speaker 3>But even if it's true. Now you know what's going

853
00:44:16.239 --> 00:44:17.159
<v Speaker 3>to happen in the future.

854
00:44:17.800 --> 00:44:18.760
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, well but.

855
00:44:19.079 --> 00:44:24.679
<v Speaker 1>You mean when Oracle buys get ub uh huh.

856
00:44:23.519 --> 00:44:26.320
<v Speaker 3>Pretty sure it's not for sale, you know, a completely

857
00:44:26.400 --> 00:44:28.599
<v Speaker 3>unrelated you know. Note, you know, there were people who

858
00:44:28.639 --> 00:44:31.320
<v Speaker 3>were submitting that DNA sample suport to form you know,

859
00:44:31.400 --> 00:44:34.039
<v Speaker 3>tes be and me, And I'm so happy I never

860
00:44:34.079 --> 00:44:36.320
<v Speaker 3>did that because even back, you know, ten years ago,

861
00:44:36.360 --> 00:44:40.039
<v Speaker 3>I thought, that's not data that I want, you know,

862
00:44:40.400 --> 00:44:44.760
<v Speaker 3>sitting in someone else, you know, repository that I can't control.

863
00:44:44.800 --> 00:44:47.239
<v Speaker 1>And yeah, too late, I've already cloned you.

864
00:44:48.760 --> 00:44:49.119
<v Speaker 2>Indeed.

865
00:44:49.719 --> 00:44:52.199
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, so I think we should be, you know, a

866
00:44:52.239 --> 00:44:56.079
<v Speaker 3>little bit careful with trusting these things, you know, because

867
00:44:56.079 --> 00:44:58.280
<v Speaker 3>things change, you know, so even if you try to

868
00:44:58.280 --> 00:45:01.719
<v Speaker 3>trust an entity like Microsoft, get up and you might

869
00:45:01.760 --> 00:45:03.480
<v Speaker 3>not want to trust it forever.

870
00:45:03.679 --> 00:45:05.719
<v Speaker 1>But then again, Mark, you know, how long will it

871
00:45:05.760 --> 00:45:08.719
<v Speaker 1>be before your iPhone twenty four will be able to

872
00:45:08.760 --> 00:45:12.559
<v Speaker 1>sequence your genome just by taking a picture of a

873
00:45:12.800 --> 00:45:15.280
<v Speaker 1>hair follicle? Yeah?

874
00:45:15.519 --> 00:45:18.400
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, maybe you should go back to probably have a

875
00:45:18.480 --> 00:45:21.519
<v Speaker 3>knock here somewhere lying around that still works. You should

876
00:45:21.519 --> 00:45:24.440
<v Speaker 3>go back to those. That's why we all kind of end.

877
00:45:25.840 --> 00:45:27.840
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I saw a modern flip phone the other day.

878
00:45:27.880 --> 00:45:30.440
<v Speaker 2>That wasn't like it was still an LCD, right, Like,

879
00:45:30.480 --> 00:45:32.599
<v Speaker 2>it wasn't the I was very tempted.

880
00:45:32.760 --> 00:45:37.360
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, Samsung flip z Well that there's an Android phone

881
00:45:37.360 --> 00:45:39.079
<v Speaker 1>that flips up and down and I have one of those.

882
00:45:39.159 --> 00:45:41.360
<v Speaker 2>Yeah yeah, but those are all those are smartphones. I'm

883
00:45:41.360 --> 00:45:45.239
<v Speaker 2>talking about a full retro flip phone. Oh wow, yeah, wow,

884
00:45:45.880 --> 00:45:48.880
<v Speaker 2>it was exciting. You do have those retro urges without

885
00:45:48.880 --> 00:45:52.119
<v Speaker 2>a doubt. Sure, there isn't the Again, I feel like

886
00:45:52.159 --> 00:45:54.440
<v Speaker 2>the programming situation is the best case scenario. I think

887
00:45:54.480 --> 00:45:58.119
<v Speaker 2>we're more cautious or more familiar with these models of

888
00:45:58.360 --> 00:46:01.280
<v Speaker 2>needing to valid and so forth. The concern space is

889
00:46:01.320 --> 00:46:04.119
<v Speaker 2>pretty much everything else happening in LLMS. Yeah, like you

890
00:46:04.159 --> 00:46:09.679
<v Speaker 2>get back to the computer says stuff. Yeah yeah, But

891
00:46:09.719 --> 00:46:12.960
<v Speaker 2>I also think we've gone through that. We used to

892
00:46:13.000 --> 00:46:16.519
<v Speaker 2>believe everything Google said too, Like this is just yet

893
00:46:16.559 --> 00:46:21.039
<v Speaker 2>another learning pattern that you have to go through the

894
00:46:21.119 --> 00:46:24.840
<v Speaker 2>experience of realizing these tools are based on knowledge we

895
00:46:24.960 --> 00:46:27.920
<v Speaker 2>have and a lot of that knowledge is inaccurate and

896
00:46:28.000 --> 00:46:31.199
<v Speaker 2>so when you you know, quote it verbatim, you are

897
00:46:31.239 --> 00:46:31.880
<v Speaker 2>often wrong.

898
00:46:32.039 --> 00:46:37.440
<v Speaker 1>So maybe Mark your critique is more of the population

899
00:46:37.920 --> 00:46:39.559
<v Speaker 1>than of the AI tools.

900
00:46:39.639 --> 00:46:41.320
<v Speaker 3>Right, Oh, absolutely, you know.

901
00:46:41.360 --> 00:46:43.960
<v Speaker 1>Can we trust people to do the right thing with these?

902
00:46:44.119 --> 00:46:48.880
<v Speaker 1>And yeah, my answer is people are driven by incentives,

903
00:46:49.039 --> 00:46:53.880
<v Speaker 1>and if the economic incentives outweigh the moral incentives or

904
00:46:53.920 --> 00:46:57.880
<v Speaker 1>the ethical incentives, guess which one wins. It's just that simple.

905
00:46:58.119 --> 00:47:02.119
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, yeah, that's that's a bleak. But I'm I think

906
00:47:02.159 --> 00:47:04.719
<v Speaker 3>I'm probably agreeing with you there.

907
00:47:04.960 --> 00:47:08.159
<v Speaker 1>Unfortunately, Well, it comes down to the developer who says

908
00:47:08.239 --> 00:47:12.079
<v Speaker 1>yes to developing something with an AI in a language

909
00:47:12.119 --> 00:47:12.920
<v Speaker 1>they don't understand.

910
00:47:13.000 --> 00:47:15.639
<v Speaker 3>Oh yeah, And it's it's not that it's an moral

911
00:47:15.760 --> 00:47:19.280
<v Speaker 3>excuse or anything. But usually what actually does happen is

912
00:47:19.320 --> 00:47:22.119
<v Speaker 3>if you say no, someone else will say yes. So

913
00:47:22.199 --> 00:47:25.880
<v Speaker 3>it's going to happen anyway. And again it's not and

914
00:47:25.920 --> 00:47:28.719
<v Speaker 3>it's not an excuse for doing something that's unethical. But

915
00:47:28.719 --> 00:47:32.639
<v Speaker 3>but still from a you know, a high level, you know,

916
00:47:33.039 --> 00:47:36.760
<v Speaker 3>just looking at society overall, that's still the mechanism that's

917
00:47:36.760 --> 00:47:38.480
<v Speaker 3>going to happen. You know, someone won't do it.

918
00:47:38.800 --> 00:47:42.079
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I wouldn't say yes, just because I'd code myself

919
00:47:42.079 --> 00:47:42.920
<v Speaker 1>into a corner, you know.

920
00:47:43.039 --> 00:47:45.480
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, but that's but you also that you senior, just

921
00:47:45.599 --> 00:47:48.559
<v Speaker 3>like you know Richard is and and what Richard talked

922
00:47:48.559 --> 00:47:51.000
<v Speaker 3>about you know. You can actually have success with these

923
00:47:51.039 --> 00:47:52.920
<v Speaker 3>things if you you know, if you know a lot

924
00:47:52.960 --> 00:47:56.440
<v Speaker 3>of enough about programming, and even if you've never seen

925
00:47:56.440 --> 00:48:01.400
<v Speaker 3>a language before, you've seen other languages that are similar

926
00:48:01.519 --> 00:48:04.119
<v Speaker 3>enough that you can probably still get a good sense

927
00:48:04.119 --> 00:48:06.639
<v Speaker 3>of if you ask it to write you know, if

928
00:48:06.639 --> 00:48:08.960
<v Speaker 3>you don't know, go, I don't know go. If I

929
00:48:09.000 --> 00:48:12.039
<v Speaker 3>ask you know, an LM to write me something and go,

930
00:48:12.079 --> 00:48:14.320
<v Speaker 3>I would probably have a fairly good idea about what

931
00:48:14.400 --> 00:48:16.840
<v Speaker 3>it is that it produced, and I'd have to look

932
00:48:16.920 --> 00:48:19.239
<v Speaker 3>up a few things and so on. But again the

933
00:48:19.280 --> 00:48:22.119
<v Speaker 3>problem is if you're not even a programmer from the beginning,

934
00:48:23.440 --> 00:48:25.440
<v Speaker 3>or if you're a junior, as we talked about, then

935
00:48:25.519 --> 00:48:26.920
<v Speaker 3>that gets a lot harder.

936
00:48:27.079 --> 00:48:30.360
<v Speaker 1>But still, if it was you know, a language like reactor,

937
00:48:30.480 --> 00:48:33.840
<v Speaker 1>you know JavaScript, but you know, if Reactor is going

938
00:48:33.920 --> 00:48:36.199
<v Speaker 1>to do something, how do I know that it did

939
00:48:36.199 --> 00:48:39.119
<v Speaker 1>it the right way or the most efficient way, or

940
00:48:39.480 --> 00:48:40.880
<v Speaker 1>you know that there isn't a better way?

941
00:48:41.239 --> 00:48:42.239
<v Speaker 2>I don't Yeah.

942
00:48:42.320 --> 00:48:44.360
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, So what I would do is I would hire

943
00:48:44.400 --> 00:48:47.880
<v Speaker 1>a subcontractor that does React, and I would encourage them

944
00:48:47.920 --> 00:48:53.639
<v Speaker 1>to use the LM because of the agents, because they'll

945
00:48:53.679 --> 00:48:56.039
<v Speaker 1>be more productive, sure, especially if they're charging me by

946
00:48:56.079 --> 00:48:59.199
<v Speaker 1>the hour. That's another question. How ethical is it to

947
00:48:59.320 --> 00:49:01.679
<v Speaker 1>charge by the project versus by the hour?

948
00:49:01.800 --> 00:49:04.840
<v Speaker 3>Now fair enough, but still it comes down to accountability

949
00:49:04.880 --> 00:49:08.079
<v Speaker 3>because if you hire a sub contractor, you need to

950
00:49:08.119 --> 00:49:12.079
<v Speaker 3>trust that some subcontractor to actually do the right thing,

951
00:49:12.920 --> 00:49:16.480
<v Speaker 3>and and and and absolutely and and that's that's another

952
00:49:16.519 --> 00:49:19.199
<v Speaker 3>problem that we tend to have with ais in general

953
00:49:19.280 --> 00:49:22.960
<v Speaker 3>is they're not really accountable right now. We don't have

954
00:49:23.000 --> 00:49:26.920
<v Speaker 3>any laws that govern how you know, who has responsibility

955
00:49:26.960 --> 00:49:29.559
<v Speaker 3>for the output of them. And as Richard said, well,

956
00:49:29.760 --> 00:49:32.360
<v Speaker 3>we even know how to deal with with software development,

957
00:49:32.559 --> 00:49:35.039
<v Speaker 3>but if we're looking at the broader picture of just

958
00:49:35.880 --> 00:49:37.840
<v Speaker 3>you know, asking it to do all sorts of other

959
00:49:37.920 --> 00:49:40.159
<v Speaker 3>tasks for us in the in the rest of the world,

960
00:49:40.239 --> 00:49:43.039
<v Speaker 3>you know, outside of software, you know who's accountable then,

961
00:49:43.119 --> 00:49:46.920
<v Speaker 3>and we we don't know they're they're not, so we're

962
00:49:47.159 --> 00:49:49.000
<v Speaker 3>sort of stuck with, you know whatever.

963
00:49:50.719 --> 00:49:54.920
<v Speaker 1>We saw companies using their their AI bots as an excuse,

964
00:49:56.159 --> 00:49:59.400
<v Speaker 1>uh when bot gave them bad advice. Remember that one, Richard,

965
00:49:59.400 --> 00:50:02.039
<v Speaker 1>I think it was an line thing, whether refund or something.

966
00:50:02.320 --> 00:50:05.880
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that was the Air Canada incident. Yeah, where where

967
00:50:06.079 --> 00:50:09.199
<v Speaker 2>a bot told a customer or you'll be able to

968
00:50:09.199 --> 00:50:11.199
<v Speaker 2>get a refund on that. So they went ahead and

969
00:50:11.239 --> 00:50:12.519
<v Speaker 2>did the thing. When they went to get the refund,

970
00:50:12.519 --> 00:50:15.159
<v Speaker 2>they were refused and ultimately ended up in front of

971
00:50:15.159 --> 00:50:17.679
<v Speaker 2>a judge and the judge said, use the bot as

972
00:50:17.679 --> 00:50:19.480
<v Speaker 2>if it was an employee. If an employee said that,

973
00:50:19.519 --> 00:50:22.320
<v Speaker 2>you'd have to make it true. So the bot qualifies. Yeah,

974
00:50:23.239 --> 00:50:25.559
<v Speaker 2>and they had to issue the refund and it just

975
00:50:25.800 --> 00:50:29.559
<v Speaker 2>was a you know, the interesting part was considering that

976
00:50:29.639 --> 00:50:34.320
<v Speaker 2>Air Canada had made a publicly accessible tool that early on. Yeah,

977
00:50:34.400 --> 00:50:37.079
<v Speaker 2>and at least in Canada now has set a piece

978
00:50:37.079 --> 00:50:40.199
<v Speaker 2>of case law in place. Not a bad thing. I'm

979
00:50:40.199 --> 00:50:43.559
<v Speaker 2>not unhappy with that outcome. No, that's I don't want them. Yeah,

980
00:50:43.920 --> 00:50:47.559
<v Speaker 2>cautionary tale to other companies, right, test and be prepared

981
00:50:47.599 --> 00:50:49.480
<v Speaker 2>to pay for the consequences exactly.

982
00:50:49.599 --> 00:50:52.079
<v Speaker 3>So that also means that if you can sort of

983
00:50:52.159 --> 00:50:54.679
<v Speaker 3>sense as a customer that you are that you have

984
00:50:54.679 --> 00:50:57.239
<v Speaker 3>an ill limit the other end, you just keep asking it,

985
00:50:57.719 --> 00:51:00.599
<v Speaker 3>you know, variations of the same questions until you get

986
00:51:00.639 --> 00:51:04.960
<v Speaker 3>something you like and then you pounce on that. Oh yeah,

987
00:51:05.000 --> 00:51:06.199
<v Speaker 3>I'll take that deal, thank you.

988
00:51:07.639 --> 00:51:10.519
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. I remember asking about are you a bot? And

989
00:51:10.519 --> 00:51:13.719
<v Speaker 1>it said no, my name is whatever from blah blah blah.

990
00:51:13.840 --> 00:51:15.639
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, sure, yeah, I.

991
00:51:15.559 --> 00:51:17.840
<v Speaker 3>Think we should. I think that should should be a

992
00:51:17.880 --> 00:51:21.920
<v Speaker 3>law that says, well, they are not allowed to impersonate humans, but.

993
00:51:22.159 --> 00:51:22.719
<v Speaker 1>You should know.

994
00:51:22.920 --> 00:51:24.639
<v Speaker 2>I have to wonder if we had done a better

995
00:51:24.719 --> 00:51:26.880
<v Speaker 2>job on privacy in the first place, if we wouldn't

996
00:51:26.880 --> 00:51:29.559
<v Speaker 2>be dealing with quite as many issues as we've got. Yeah,

997
00:51:29.679 --> 00:51:32.239
<v Speaker 2>that doesn't mean we shouldn't continue to try. Like I'm

998
00:51:33.119 --> 00:51:35.039
<v Speaker 2>we talk about the challenges of the gen Z and

999
00:51:35.079 --> 00:51:39.960
<v Speaker 2>younger generations. It's this using despairs and excuse not to try. Yeah, hey,

1000
00:51:40.000 --> 00:51:44.280
<v Speaker 2>it's not an excuse. You have to continue to be

1001
00:51:44.400 --> 00:51:48.800
<v Speaker 2>the best person you can be. Be the best programmer, dancer, electrician,

1002
00:51:48.960 --> 00:51:51.119
<v Speaker 2>whatever it is you are. Be the best you can

1003
00:51:51.159 --> 00:51:53.760
<v Speaker 2>possibly be, and use the tools to your advantage. Don't

1004
00:51:53.800 --> 00:51:59.199
<v Speaker 2>become a tool yourself. All right, at all? In all,

1005
00:51:59.199 --> 00:52:00.000
<v Speaker 2>I'm pretty optimistic.

1006
00:52:01.000 --> 00:52:02.679
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I actually am too.

1007
00:52:03.079 --> 00:52:09.119
<v Speaker 3>Well, I'm not, but that's just my disposition.

1008
00:52:08.639 --> 00:52:10.920
<v Speaker 2>To see some patterns happening again. It's like, oh boy,

1009
00:52:10.960 --> 00:52:13.119
<v Speaker 2>we get to learn this problem again. Oh you've been

1010
00:52:13.119 --> 00:52:15.679
<v Speaker 2>trusting software. Huh, All right, here we go.

1011
00:52:15.840 --> 00:52:17.760
<v Speaker 1>We're gonna have to trust but you know what, the

1012
00:52:17.840 --> 00:52:20.199
<v Speaker 1>chickens will come home to rust, like we've said, Richard,

1013
00:52:20.360 --> 00:52:22.840
<v Speaker 1>and you know the rest of the people will wake

1014
00:52:22.920 --> 00:52:24.679
<v Speaker 1>up and say, oh we need to do this, we

1015
00:52:24.719 --> 00:52:27.079
<v Speaker 1>need to do that. We can't just rely on these things.

1016
00:52:27.679 --> 00:52:30.599
<v Speaker 1>So yeah, there'll there will be some pain for sure. Yeah,

1017
00:52:30.719 --> 00:52:34.960
<v Speaker 1>but ultimately come down to people and the decisions they make. Yeah, yeah, okay,

1018
00:52:35.360 --> 00:52:36.000
<v Speaker 1>is that a show?

1019
00:52:36.360 --> 00:52:37.159
<v Speaker 2>I think it's a show?

1020
00:52:37.320 --> 00:52:41.199
<v Speaker 1>All right, Mark, thank you. It's always always awesome talking

1021
00:52:41.239 --> 00:52:41.519
<v Speaker 1>to you.

1022
00:52:41.840 --> 00:52:44.039
<v Speaker 3>It's a pleasure, all right. Thank you for having me.

1023
00:52:44.199 --> 00:52:46.480
<v Speaker 1>You bet, and we'll see you next time on dot

1024
00:52:46.519 --> 00:53:09.039
<v Speaker 1>net rocks. Dot net Rocks is brought to you by

1025
00:53:09.119 --> 00:53:13.800
<v Speaker 1>Franklin's Net and produced by Pop Studios, a full service audio,

1026
00:53:13.920 --> 00:53:18.360
<v Speaker 1>video and post production facility located physically in New London, Connecticut,

1027
00:53:18.599 --> 00:53:23.400
<v Speaker 1>and of course in the cloud online at pwop dot com.

1028
00:53:23.599 --> 00:53:25.760
<v Speaker 5>Visit our website at d O T N E T

1029
00:53:25.960 --> 00:53:30.000
<v Speaker 5>R O c k S dot com for RSS feeds, downloads,

1030
00:53:30.159 --> 00:53:33.840
<v Speaker 5>mobile apps, comments, and access to the full archives going

1031
00:53:33.880 --> 00:53:37.239
<v Speaker 5>back to show number one, recorded in September two thousand

1032
00:53:37.280 --> 00:53:37.519
<v Speaker 5>and two.

1033
00:53:38.159 --> 00:53:40.480
<v Speaker 1>And make sure you check out our sponsors. They keep

1034
00:53:40.559 --> 00:53:43.760
<v Speaker 1>us in business. Now, go write some code, see you

1035
00:53:43.800 --> 00:53:44.199
<v Speaker 1>next time.

1036
00:53:45.119 --> 00:53:46.960
<v Speaker 3>You got jam Vans

1037
00:53:49.000 --> 00:54:01.519
<v Speaker 2>And for the pass