WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.040 --> 00:00:02.520 But a good friend of the show stops buying a 2 00:00:02.560 --> 00:00:04.280 Tuesday and it's been way too long. 3 00:00:04.799 --> 00:00:07.440 Caitlin Jones, Happy Tuesday, buddy. How are we doing? 4 00:00:09.919 --> 00:00:11.640 I'm doing for hearing your voice? Man? 5 00:00:11.919 --> 00:00:14.080 Yeah? Great. Great to catch up with you as well. 6 00:00:14.119 --> 00:00:16.480 And it seems like every time I chat with you, 7 00:00:16.480 --> 00:00:19.160 you have taken another job and another really cool job 8 00:00:19.199 --> 00:00:21.760 as well. So I need the career update, I need 9 00:00:21.800 --> 00:00:23.480 the life update. What's going on with you now? 10 00:00:25.320 --> 00:00:28.000 I mean, I'm very blessed man. You know, media is 11 00:00:28.079 --> 00:00:32.159 not an eat the industry to hold feeble jobs as 12 00:00:32.200 --> 00:00:36.520 I'm current throughout my career. But I'm currently an associate 13 00:00:36.560 --> 00:00:41.759 producer for Netflix is Untold, the sports documentary series. It's 14 00:00:41.799 --> 00:00:43.679 been about a year now. I've kept it low key 15 00:00:43.799 --> 00:00:47.560 because there hasn't been too much to share. I'm excited 16 00:00:47.560 --> 00:00:51.359 because the first round of episodes that was a part 17 00:00:51.359 --> 00:00:53.960 of I really wasn't a part of I was just 18 00:00:54.000 --> 00:00:56.439 getting an a. I was like that person in the 19 00:00:56.479 --> 00:00:59.240 group who didn't really do anything on the group assignment 20 00:00:59.280 --> 00:01:02.200 and got an a on it. This time around had 21 00:01:02.240 --> 00:01:03.520 a little bit more of a hand in it. And 22 00:01:03.560 --> 00:01:06.560 I'm excited for our episode that's coming out called shooting 23 00:01:06.560 --> 00:01:11.920 guards about Gilbert Arenas and Javaris Critenson and the incident. 24 00:01:12.120 --> 00:01:15.400 So we've got a couple more episodes coming up. It 25 00:01:15.400 --> 00:01:17.719 takes a few years of make these things. I'm learning, 26 00:01:17.760 --> 00:01:20.239 but it's been a really fun experience so far, transitioning 27 00:01:20.280 --> 00:01:22.640 over from journalism to the film space. 28 00:01:23.560 --> 00:01:25.120 Very nice, very nice, Caitlin. 29 00:01:25.200 --> 00:01:27.200 We are losing you a little bit on the cell phone, 30 00:01:27.280 --> 00:01:29.280 so I'm gonna reset quite a little bit of a 31 00:01:29.319 --> 00:01:31.200 long question. I'm gonna ask you just move around a 32 00:01:31.239 --> 00:01:32.920 little bit, see if we can get a better connection. 33 00:01:33.079 --> 00:01:35.640 So Cayln Jones is our guest. He's been a friend 34 00:01:35.640 --> 00:01:37.799 of the show for five six years. He was with 35 00:01:37.879 --> 00:01:40.599 The Ringer, he was with Sports Illustrated, with The Athletic, 36 00:01:40.680 --> 00:01:44.200 has now landed over with our friends in Netflix. So 37 00:01:44.640 --> 00:01:49.079 what has been so this this this Gilbert Arenas doctor 38 00:01:49.120 --> 00:01:51.280 you have coming up? I wonder what has been this process, 39 00:01:51.439 --> 00:01:53.560 what the process has been like for you? I mean, 40 00:01:54.040 --> 00:01:58.120 I certainly will never forget this story. I am beyond 41 00:01:58.200 --> 00:02:02.959 excited to watch this and as a lifelong quite frankly, 42 00:02:03.040 --> 00:02:05.599 being around the NBA my entire life, somebody who's worked 43 00:02:05.599 --> 00:02:07.120 in it and has covered it for quite some time, 44 00:02:07.159 --> 00:02:09.520 of course, I can remember Gilbert Arenas as a great 45 00:02:09.560 --> 00:02:13.560 college player and a very very talented pro and I 46 00:02:13.680 --> 00:02:17.639 completely remember when this news certainly came down in the 47 00:02:17.680 --> 00:02:21.080 fallout for both Gilbert and Javaris Criten And what's what's 48 00:02:21.319 --> 00:02:23.479 what's the process been like for you guys to make this. 49 00:02:25.560 --> 00:02:28.759 So when I joined about a year ago, the process 50 00:02:28.960 --> 00:02:32.479 it already started conducting interviews with Green and the Bars 51 00:02:32.520 --> 00:02:35.960 Crinton both, you know, people close to both of them, 52 00:02:36.039 --> 00:02:41.439 former teammates to witness the whole incident go down. And 53 00:02:41.479 --> 00:02:45.319 then obviously the police departments from Atlanta who was kind 54 00:02:45.360 --> 00:02:48.400 of the fallout as far as Bars Critins inside of everything. 55 00:02:48.560 --> 00:02:53.280 But when I joined the processes, you know, you have 56 00:02:53.439 --> 00:02:55.319 the editor or a couple of editors who are in 57 00:02:55.560 --> 00:02:58.680 ed base and after you're basically trying to help them, 58 00:02:58.840 --> 00:03:01.960 you know, nurture the story. Alonge, you send a few 59 00:03:02.000 --> 00:03:04.960 cuts to the big folks at Netflix, they send some 60 00:03:05.039 --> 00:03:08.599 notes back. You probably do that five or six signs 61 00:03:08.680 --> 00:03:12.520 before you get a final cut and line that process 62 00:03:12.560 --> 00:03:15.439 six about a year. It's been really fascinating. But you know, 63 00:03:15.479 --> 00:03:17.680 it's really cool, Spence, because you know how it is 64 00:03:17.719 --> 00:03:21.520 with media scrums and most interview sessions. You know, they're 65 00:03:21.560 --> 00:03:23.560 five ten minutes and you're sticking a microphone in an 66 00:03:23.599 --> 00:03:26.879 athlete's face after, you know, a huge moment. With documentaries, 67 00:03:26.960 --> 00:03:29.120 we get the luxury of sitting with subjects for hours 68 00:03:29.120 --> 00:03:33.919 and so being able to get fuller context and provide 69 00:03:33.960 --> 00:03:37.719 that on a platform like Netflix is really special to 70 00:03:37.719 --> 00:03:38.240 be a part of. 71 00:03:38.759 --> 00:03:41.240 All Right, for our listeners that are going, who are 72 00:03:41.240 --> 00:03:44.000 Gilbert Arenas and Javar's kritten? And because it is sixteen 73 00:03:44.080 --> 00:03:48.319 years ago, let's revisit it, Kalin, So tell our listeners 74 00:03:48.439 --> 00:03:51.719 what went down Christmas Eve two thousand and nine. 75 00:03:52.840 --> 00:03:56.639 Yeah, So Gilbert Arenas as you were talking about Spence, 76 00:03:56.719 --> 00:04:02.240 talented NBA player, multi time all are for the Washington Wizards. 77 00:04:03.080 --> 00:04:05.439 He and Javaris Crittinson, who was a backup point guard 78 00:04:05.439 --> 00:04:08.719 on the team, young in his career, had been drafted 79 00:04:08.719 --> 00:04:10.599 by the Lakers, trying to kind of you know, trying 80 00:04:10.599 --> 00:04:15.560 to save his career. They during a slight home the 81 00:04:15.639 --> 00:04:17.519 two of them got you know, they were playing cards 82 00:04:17.560 --> 00:04:21.240 on the plane. Uh over you know, there was a 83 00:04:21.279 --> 00:04:26.519 debate over who owed who money and between Gilbert and 84 00:04:26.600 --> 00:04:31.480 Javars Uh it became sort of an emotional showing of 85 00:04:31.639 --> 00:04:34.319 manhood and challenging one another. You know how it is 86 00:04:34.360 --> 00:04:36.680 with your friends. Sometimes sometimes we have friends who take 87 00:04:36.720 --> 00:04:40.360 things a little bit so far. And while they're talking 88 00:04:40.399 --> 00:04:43.000 about bringing guns to each other, you know, bringing guns 89 00:04:43.040 --> 00:04:47.000 to the locker room, and Javaris and Gilbert both ended 90 00:04:47.040 --> 00:04:49.920 up following through. Uh, they ended up pulling out guns 91 00:04:49.920 --> 00:04:59.199 on each other. And hello, here can you hear me? 92 00:04:59.639 --> 00:05:02.600 Yeah, you're you're breaking up pretty fierce. Is there is 93 00:05:02.600 --> 00:05:04.839 there any way we can get you to relocate. 94 00:05:04.399 --> 00:05:06.000 Or do you? Porter can porter? 95 00:05:06.240 --> 00:05:07.839 Porter can call you back if you want, if you 96 00:05:07.839 --> 00:05:09.519 want to take a second, we can reconnect with you. 97 00:05:10.480 --> 00:05:12.839 Ah, man, I'm sorry, man, I'm trying to figure out 98 00:05:12.879 --> 00:05:16.319 a better spot in the hotel to the Uh. Speak 99 00:05:16.319 --> 00:05:18.720 to you from him in Atlanta. Actually, we're doing some 100 00:05:18.759 --> 00:05:20.000 interviews for another episode. 101 00:05:20.079 --> 00:05:22.079 You sound really good right now, wherever you're at, just 102 00:05:22.120 --> 00:05:22.720 stay right there. 103 00:05:23.079 --> 00:05:26.800 You sound right, okay, perfect? But yeah, the two of 104 00:05:26.839 --> 00:05:30.399 them got into a incident showing a manhood calling each 105 00:05:30.439 --> 00:05:33.959 other out on the plane. Both threatened to bring guns 106 00:05:33.959 --> 00:05:36.600 into the locker room. And I think you know, we 107 00:05:36.720 --> 00:05:38.800 all have friends who take things probably a little bit 108 00:05:38.839 --> 00:05:42.279 too far, a little bit too literally, and unfortunately. Yeah, 109 00:05:42.319 --> 00:05:44.439 they they brought guns into the locker room and both 110 00:05:44.480 --> 00:05:48.680 were suspended, given two of the lanky suspensions in NBA history, 111 00:05:48.879 --> 00:05:52.959 essentially end the Javaris Critinson's career and uh, Gilbert or 112 00:05:53.000 --> 00:05:56.879 Reer never really recovered after that. And so what we 113 00:05:56.959 --> 00:05:59.839 do is really examine the fallout of it. Uh is 114 00:06:00.160 --> 00:06:02.920 really tragic, honestly, like what ends up pappening in Javar's 115 00:06:03.040 --> 00:06:06.360 side of things, and he kind of probably aware of 116 00:06:06.360 --> 00:06:09.839 Gilbert Arenas's son, Elijah Arenas, one of the top prospects 117 00:06:09.879 --> 00:06:15.879 in college basketball. He just recently, you know, luckily survived, 118 00:06:15.879 --> 00:06:19.560 but there was a car accident out in La where 119 00:06:19.600 --> 00:06:22.040 he was trapped in a cyber truck and was able 120 00:06:22.079 --> 00:06:24.560 to luckily get out. He wasn't put into his coma, 121 00:06:24.639 --> 00:06:28.959 but he's awake now. And Yeah, we examined their relationship, 122 00:06:29.199 --> 00:06:32.560 Javar's fallout. It's a really compelling episode in one of 123 00:06:32.560 --> 00:06:35.360 the best untolds I think will ever come out. 124 00:06:35.720 --> 00:06:38.560 Yeah, I'm excited for what is the nature now for 125 00:06:38.600 --> 00:06:40.920 our listeners that don't know Javaris critten In a few 126 00:06:40.959 --> 00:06:45.199 years later was charged with the murder of Julian Jones, 127 00:06:45.319 --> 00:06:48.680 twenty two year old mother of four. He pled guilty 128 00:06:48.720 --> 00:06:52.079 to manslaughter. He was sentenced to twenty three years in prison. 129 00:06:52.720 --> 00:06:55.439 It was later reduced to ten years, and he was 130 00:06:55.480 --> 00:06:59.399 released from prison last year. So, you know, of course, 131 00:07:00.199 --> 00:07:02.560 a very sad story for a number of different reasons. 132 00:07:03.120 --> 00:07:06.639 What was the effect of the incident, not the not 133 00:07:06.720 --> 00:07:10.360 the murder the Javaris committed, but the incident between Javaris 134 00:07:10.399 --> 00:07:13.040 and Gilbert and the gun incident, What was the effect 135 00:07:13.639 --> 00:07:15.920 that that had on their relationship and what is the 136 00:07:16.000 --> 00:07:17.600 nature of their relationship today? 137 00:07:19.879 --> 00:07:25.439 Really did sort of torpedo things right. Javaris was, you know, 138 00:07:25.560 --> 00:07:29.759 personally upset at Gilbert because after the incident happened, after 139 00:07:29.800 --> 00:07:33.680 the NBA handed out or at least threatened to hand 140 00:07:33.680 --> 00:07:37.279 out the suspensions, Gilbert Renus was. There's a famous picture 141 00:07:37.480 --> 00:07:39.759 or infamous picture of him, you know in the huddle, 142 00:07:40.000 --> 00:07:44.279 the team huddle and finger guns at everybody, and you 143 00:07:44.279 --> 00:07:46.639 know Javaris saw it as you know, Gilbert playing around 144 00:07:46.639 --> 00:07:50.600 and not taking things seriously. You know, their their relationship, 145 00:07:50.600 --> 00:07:54.399 It took a few years for them the sort of 146 00:07:54.480 --> 00:07:57.759 men things after Javaris had gotten out, they are now 147 00:07:58.680 --> 00:08:02.040 I wouldn't say close, but you know there there acquaintances cordial, 148 00:08:02.079 --> 00:08:03.759 however you want to put it, they're on good terms 149 00:08:03.959 --> 00:08:05.680 at this point. I know that Jabars has been on 150 00:08:05.680 --> 00:08:08.199 Gilbert Arenas's podcast a couple of times at this point 151 00:08:09.199 --> 00:08:11.800 to discuss everything and kind of you know, air everything out. 152 00:08:11.920 --> 00:08:15.839 But yeah, it's it's in a much better spot today. 153 00:08:15.839 --> 00:08:18.439 And as you mentioned, you know, obviously there's a seriously tragic, 154 00:08:19.680 --> 00:08:22.000 you know, portion of the story that you know, we 155 00:08:22.000 --> 00:08:25.879 we do a really good job of getting into. But 156 00:08:26.279 --> 00:08:28.480 it's it's a really fascinating story. Like I said, I 157 00:08:28.519 --> 00:08:30.680 think it's going to be one of the best sports 158 00:08:30.720 --> 00:08:32.159 documentaries that comes out this year. 159 00:08:32.600 --> 00:08:35.600 As far as you know, we referenced the player that 160 00:08:35.679 --> 00:08:40.200 Gilbert was, and you know, he ultimately when you look 161 00:08:40.240 --> 00:08:42.799 at from a macro standpoint, because he was not super 162 00:08:42.879 --> 00:08:45.720 highly thought of as an NBA prospect coming out of college, 163 00:08:46.559 --> 00:08:48.759 I don't think you can he was a second round pick. 164 00:08:48.879 --> 00:08:51.000 I don't think he can really analyze his career as 165 00:08:51.039 --> 00:08:54.559 anything other than a massive success based off of expectations. 166 00:08:54.559 --> 00:08:58.360 But from a Gilbert Arenas angle, specifically, how did that 167 00:08:58.600 --> 00:09:01.799 incident kind of changed the trajectory of his NBA career. 168 00:09:03.200 --> 00:09:05.279 Yeah, like I said, you know, things kind of filled 169 00:09:05.279 --> 00:09:08.399 with out for him afterwards, he wasn't able to return 170 00:09:09.080 --> 00:09:12.519 to being, you know, the superstar. He wasn't the face 171 00:09:12.600 --> 00:09:14.480 of the league. He was literally on the cover of 172 00:09:14.559 --> 00:09:17.120 NBA Live in two thousand and eight. I still I'm 173 00:09:17.120 --> 00:09:20.480 pretty sure I had that game. He was one of 174 00:09:20.480 --> 00:09:23.320 the faces of the league. And after that incident, the 175 00:09:23.440 --> 00:09:26.039 NBA did its you know, it did its job to 176 00:09:26.080 --> 00:09:29.159 protect its brand and made sure that you know, he 177 00:09:29.240 --> 00:09:33.159 wasn't necessarily considered a face. For Gilbert, his career tailed off. 178 00:09:33.159 --> 00:09:36.039 He ended up playing in Memphis Orlando. He was never 179 00:09:36.080 --> 00:09:39.120 really the same player, and so for him personally though, 180 00:09:39.639 --> 00:09:41.799 I think that and he talked about it in our episode, 181 00:09:41.799 --> 00:09:45.960 it you know, played a role in him evolving and 182 00:09:46.039 --> 00:09:49.559 maturing as a man, specifically as a father. He's much 183 00:09:49.600 --> 00:09:54.159 more involved in Elijah Arenas's life. Gilbert, like I said, 184 00:09:54.159 --> 00:09:57.240 he's someone who's a goofball, didn't take things seriously. That 185 00:09:57.279 --> 00:10:00.159 incident helped change him to being a little bit more 186 00:10:00.159 --> 00:10:02.960 mature and taking things a little bit more seriously. And 187 00:10:03.679 --> 00:10:06.679 like I said, he's ensuring that his son isn't on 188 00:10:06.879 --> 00:10:09.559 a similar path to not taking things serious. And I 189 00:10:09.600 --> 00:10:11.720 think that's the reason why he ended up not going 190 00:10:12.120 --> 00:10:13.840 in the first round during the draft, and why he 191 00:10:13.919 --> 00:10:17.440 wasn't considered as highly a prospect because he was so talented, 192 00:10:17.440 --> 00:10:20.639 but he didn't have maybe necessarily the work at elite 193 00:10:20.639 --> 00:10:23.440 work ethic. Obviously, every athlete has work ethic, the elite 194 00:10:23.600 --> 00:10:26.480 work ethic to keep him consistently at an all star 195 00:10:26.600 --> 00:10:30.639 caliber level. So I think it changed him for the better. Obviously, 196 00:10:31.120 --> 00:10:34.720 it's unfortunate that it took that incident, but you know, 197 00:10:34.840 --> 00:10:37.279 for his personal life and we see him now obviously 198 00:10:37.480 --> 00:10:40.120 with the podcast. He's still a jokester, but there is 199 00:10:40.639 --> 00:10:44.159 a little bit more maturity that comes with the experiences 200 00:10:43.879 --> 00:10:45.799 he's had, you. 201 00:10:45.720 --> 00:10:48.399 Know, in UH, in both in both pro sports and 202 00:10:48.399 --> 00:10:51.159 if for honest, in society, the topic of gun control 203 00:10:51.279 --> 00:10:53.799 is one that comes up often and people feel very 204 00:10:53.840 --> 00:10:57.200 passionate about it, both on both sides of the aisle 205 00:10:57.240 --> 00:11:00.000 wherever you stand. UH and of course when it comes 206 00:11:00.279 --> 00:11:03.159 to the NBA or the NFL, you know, oftentimes when 207 00:11:03.159 --> 00:11:06.600 a player is caught with a firearm without a license, 208 00:11:06.759 --> 00:11:09.519 or you know, they're pulled over and there's a firearm 209 00:11:09.559 --> 00:11:12.679 in the car, the league's come under a tremendous scrutiny 210 00:11:12.759 --> 00:11:16.639 to serve as an example for everybody else. How did 211 00:11:16.639 --> 00:11:20.759 this incident, if at all, kind of change the perspective 212 00:11:20.840 --> 00:11:23.039 or paradigm of pro basketball in the way that they 213 00:11:23.159 --> 00:11:24.879 view and handle gun control issues. 214 00:11:26.000 --> 00:11:30.440 Well, the reason why the penalty was socivere. The suspension 215 00:11:30.679 --> 00:11:32.480 was for the rest of the season. I'm blanking on 216 00:11:32.519 --> 00:11:34.200 which season that was. It might have been two and 217 00:11:34.279 --> 00:11:37.840 two thousand and nine, but both of them ended up 218 00:11:37.879 --> 00:11:41.279 being suspended for the entire season, And for Javares Crittinson, 219 00:11:41.320 --> 00:11:45.279 I mean he was essentially blackballed from returning to the NBA. 220 00:11:47.120 --> 00:11:50.000 And then I think the severity with which the NBA 221 00:11:50.080 --> 00:11:53.120 came down was to ensure that, you know, the league 222 00:11:53.159 --> 00:11:56.840 itself has had to overcome different types of stigmas, right 223 00:11:56.919 --> 00:12:01.320 like before the Magic Johnson Larry bird eras uh, obviously 224 00:12:01.840 --> 00:12:05.480 the league had a crack cocaine issue with its players 225 00:12:05.480 --> 00:12:08.240 and so being able to rescue the league it's first 226 00:12:09.039 --> 00:12:12.480 with the bird machinery and Michael Jordan. You know all 227 00:12:12.559 --> 00:12:15.559 that the league was nervous about that NINU race when 228 00:12:15.639 --> 00:12:18.799 the early two thousands, late nineteen nineties, you had players 229 00:12:18.840 --> 00:12:21.879 who the league had the record with hip hop culture 230 00:12:22.240 --> 00:12:25.720 coming to the surface and players expecting themselves that way. 231 00:12:25.879 --> 00:12:31.159 So you had different points throughout the league's league history 232 00:12:31.240 --> 00:12:35.960 where it's had the grapple with perception, outsider perception, which 233 00:12:36.039 --> 00:12:40.080 ultimately affects its you know, final dollar. With that incident, 234 00:12:40.200 --> 00:12:44.639 I think they made sure very very strongly that you know, 235 00:12:44.679 --> 00:12:50.120 it would not tolerate you know, gun gunplay literally within 236 00:12:50.159 --> 00:12:54.600 the flocker room, and so the penalties were super severe, 237 00:12:55.519 --> 00:12:59.440 and I think that you know, how the league handled it, 238 00:13:00.159 --> 00:13:03.159 uh super fascinating for Gilbert. I guess I'm telling the 239 00:13:03.240 --> 00:13:06.200 untold part of it here, but Gilbert explained that the 240 00:13:06.320 --> 00:13:09.960 league really came down fiercely upon him because he was 241 00:13:10.000 --> 00:13:14.879 trafficking guns essentially using private planes that the NBA was providing, 242 00:13:15.159 --> 00:13:18.000 because he had guns in Phoenix and he would bring 243 00:13:18.039 --> 00:13:22.559 them over to Washington, d C. So using the NBA's 244 00:13:22.559 --> 00:13:27.159 private planes. So they He believes that the reason why 245 00:13:27.159 --> 00:13:30.000 the pelly was so severe is because the NBA didn't 246 00:13:30.000 --> 00:13:30.799 want that to be known. 247 00:13:31.320 --> 00:13:33.799 When is this coming out? I'm telling you, I am 248 00:13:33.840 --> 00:13:35.759 giddy with excitement. This is gonna be awesome. 249 00:13:36.879 --> 00:13:38.919 It's coming out on May six, Okay. 250 00:13:39.159 --> 00:13:40.559 Oh nice, right around the corner. 251 00:13:40.600 --> 00:13:42.639 So you referenced there are some other unt and we've 252 00:13:42.639 --> 00:13:45.240 had Tony vai Nuku on the program a couple of times. 253 00:13:45.240 --> 00:13:47.720 He's a Utah filmmaker who worked on the anti Teo 254 00:13:48.720 --> 00:13:49.759 documentary Untold. 255 00:13:50.200 --> 00:13:51.919 What what are What are the other projects that you 256 00:13:51.919 --> 00:13:52.399 have coming up? 257 00:13:52.480 --> 00:13:58.600 Kaln Yeah, so Until has two more episodes. The episodes 258 00:13:58.600 --> 00:14:01.480 that are coming out are based on the social media 259 00:14:01.480 --> 00:14:04.480 guy named Wiver King and then also there's an episode 260 00:14:04.480 --> 00:14:09.320 coming out about Brett farre Neither of those episodes, I guess, 261 00:14:09.320 --> 00:14:11.879 like the Hollywood of It bills, weren't done by our 262 00:14:11.919 --> 00:14:15.200 production houses, the production house that I work with. We 263 00:14:15.279 --> 00:14:17.519 have a few more episodes coming out in the pipe 264 00:14:17.519 --> 00:14:22.039 that regard the NBA, regard Major League Baseball, and the NFL, 265 00:14:22.200 --> 00:14:24.320 And unfortunately I want to protect my job, so I 266 00:14:24.360 --> 00:14:27.639 can't say what it is yet, but I think that 267 00:14:27.840 --> 00:14:31.399 they will also be some compelling stuff. So I'm really 268 00:14:31.440 --> 00:14:33.679 excited about what we're working on, even what I'm here 269 00:14:33.720 --> 00:14:35.039 in Atlanta working on right now. 270 00:14:35.960 --> 00:14:39.039 Yeah, I've loved all of them. I mean, Malice in 271 00:14:39.080 --> 00:14:41.200 the Palace that was the first one I saw. 272 00:14:41.759 --> 00:14:43.600 Let's see were the other ones we have. 273 00:14:43.879 --> 00:14:46.480 I have referenced the Girlfriend who Didn't exist, Manti Tayo 274 00:14:46.600 --> 00:14:48.759 and a lot of local ties here. The Rise and 275 00:14:48.799 --> 00:14:51.759 Fall of Van One. I mean, I loved and One 276 00:14:51.840 --> 00:14:54.240 back in the day. I thought it was great. There's 277 00:14:54.279 --> 00:14:57.200 a ton of great ones. The one on Manzell was 278 00:14:57.240 --> 00:15:01.000 really good. I recently saw the one on Steve McNair. 279 00:15:01.120 --> 00:15:04.320 So what a cool what a cool series fe you'd 280 00:15:04.360 --> 00:15:05.919 be involved in, Man, I think that's great. I wanted 281 00:15:05.919 --> 00:15:08.960 to bring you into a conversation we've been having because 282 00:15:09.000 --> 00:15:11.440 in your former life, and you're still a very young person, 283 00:15:11.519 --> 00:15:12.559 you've just done so many. 284 00:15:12.399 --> 00:15:13.200 Really cool things. 285 00:15:13.240 --> 00:15:16.679 But I've been talking the past couple of days Kalan 286 00:15:16.720 --> 00:15:20.279 about you know, on one side, you have NFL talent 287 00:15:20.399 --> 00:15:24.279 evaluators that actually work for the league and work for teams, 288 00:15:24.440 --> 00:15:26.799 and then on the other side, you have media members 289 00:15:26.799 --> 00:15:31.120 that kind of moonlight as NFL talent evaluators and draft 290 00:15:31.399 --> 00:15:35.120 you know, draft you know evaluators, and oftentimes there's a 291 00:15:35.240 --> 00:15:38.480 massive gap between those two groups, because if you're evaluating 292 00:15:38.559 --> 00:15:41.360 talent for a pro team or a pro league, you 293 00:15:41.399 --> 00:15:44.879 have to remove emotion from the equation and simply analyze 294 00:15:44.919 --> 00:15:47.759 the prospect you have at your disposal. We're on the 295 00:15:47.799 --> 00:15:50.960 media side, especially during the draft cycle, for whatever reason, 296 00:15:51.480 --> 00:15:55.120 people want so much engagement that they don't necessarily pay 297 00:15:55.120 --> 00:15:58.440 as much attention to the nuts and bolts of analyzing players, 298 00:15:58.440 --> 00:16:00.559 and they just want you to engage with their content. 299 00:16:00.960 --> 00:16:03.480 Which brings me to this Shudar Sanders story, which has 300 00:16:03.559 --> 00:16:07.080 just been fascinating. Is this as simple as maybe media 301 00:16:07.120 --> 00:16:09.919 people getting this wrong. An NFL talent evaluator is just 302 00:16:09.960 --> 00:16:12.039 saying he's not as good as you people think. 303 00:16:13.919 --> 00:16:17.200 Yeah, I think it's a little bit of both. As 304 00:16:17.200 --> 00:16:19.840 someone who was on the media side of it, as 305 00:16:19.879 --> 00:16:24.919 you mentioned back in what was it, twenty twenty one 306 00:16:25.000 --> 00:16:29.320 when we had justin Fields, you know, and I wrote 307 00:16:29.480 --> 00:16:32.039 a story that you know, drove a lot of traffic. 308 00:16:32.159 --> 00:16:34.399 You know, I'm not necessarily proud of that part, but 309 00:16:35.519 --> 00:16:40.320 you know, the narratives that gets stuck with particular prospects 310 00:16:40.440 --> 00:16:43.639 is very fascinating. And so you mentioned engagement, and I 311 00:16:43.679 --> 00:16:45.240 was thinking about it. I was talking to a friend 312 00:16:45.279 --> 00:16:49.320 about this with Shador, you know, I was joking. I 313 00:16:49.360 --> 00:16:52.440 was like, hey, like, I loved him, but I don't 314 00:16:52.480 --> 00:16:55.240 think he's a first round talent. I think he has 315 00:16:55.240 --> 00:16:57.159 a weak arm. I don't I think he's a great 316 00:16:57.200 --> 00:17:00.480 prospecting that he's tough as hell and will hang in 317 00:17:00.519 --> 00:17:02.120 the pocket. I mean, he drists a little bit, but 318 00:17:02.320 --> 00:17:04.119 he's willing to sit in the pot and will throw 319 00:17:04.119 --> 00:17:06.319 over the mill you can't. Those are two traits that 320 00:17:06.319 --> 00:17:10.119 I feel like, generally, you know, suggest that you can 321 00:17:10.240 --> 00:17:12.400 last in the NFL. That being said, he doesn't have 322 00:17:12.400 --> 00:17:14.440 the biggest arm and he's not the biggest dude, So 323 00:17:14.440 --> 00:17:16.039 I'm not surprised at all. It would have taken less 324 00:17:16.079 --> 00:17:18.039 than one and a half if I could have gambled 325 00:17:18.039 --> 00:17:21.880 on it, even though two quarterbacks went. Like with the Door, 326 00:17:23.119 --> 00:17:26.400 It's really fascinating that. And I guess drafts in general, 327 00:17:26.720 --> 00:17:31.400 right justin Field's draft, there was Trevor Lawrence all time prospect, 328 00:17:32.279 --> 00:17:35.960 and we were still focused on the narratives that were 329 00:17:35.960 --> 00:17:39.519 surrounding justin Fields. That's why I wrote the article. It's like, 330 00:17:39.799 --> 00:17:42.799 why are we talking about the negative about this bad 331 00:17:42.880 --> 00:17:46.119 prospect instead of there's other people that we can talk about. 332 00:17:46.440 --> 00:17:49.200 And same with the Door, we had a show to hey, 333 00:17:49.240 --> 00:17:53.359 old Tani esque prospect in Travis Hunter, who went number 334 00:17:53.400 --> 00:17:56.119 two overall. I think that's more dramatic, like there is 335 00:17:56.160 --> 00:18:01.039 a one unicle who wasn't selected number one. I think 336 00:18:01.079 --> 00:18:03.880 that's way more compelling to me than you know, a 337 00:18:03.960 --> 00:18:07.039 quarterback that probably wouldn't wouldn't have gone first overall in 338 00:18:07.039 --> 00:18:09.960 the stronger quarterback class, you know, falling out of the 339 00:18:09.960 --> 00:18:13.400 first round. I think it's compelling because you guys know 340 00:18:13.440 --> 00:18:16.119 how it goes first and foremost, like college football fans 341 00:18:16.200 --> 00:18:18.880 are most rapid and most passionate stand base in the 342 00:18:18.960 --> 00:18:22.839 United States. I think the other element of that is 343 00:18:23.200 --> 00:18:25.440 the Deon Sanders of it all. Granted I'm young, I'm 344 00:18:25.440 --> 00:18:29.240 only twenty eight. I've covered, I was covered in my 345 00:18:29.359 --> 00:18:33.000 previous job. I come the Colorado UCLA game when they 346 00:18:33.000 --> 00:18:39.000 were in LA and my assignment was go follow around Colorado, 347 00:18:39.240 --> 00:18:42.480 go hang around the tailgates, go watch the game from 348 00:18:42.519 --> 00:18:46.359 the stands on the Colorado side. I've been told how massive, 349 00:18:47.039 --> 00:18:49.000 you know, Deon Sanders, how big of a deal he is, 350 00:18:49.039 --> 00:18:52.400 and I understand that, but I understand it even more 351 00:18:52.440 --> 00:18:56.200 having been around these people who love and pray, and 352 00:18:56.240 --> 00:18:58.839 that's why the Door's number gotten fired. I don't think 353 00:18:58.920 --> 00:19:01.440 it's like a great but I'm not surprised. It's their 354 00:19:01.519 --> 00:19:05.519 church essentially, people that put on their pedestal and so 355 00:19:06.480 --> 00:19:10.160 compelling element of shador being Deon Sanders kid is why 356 00:19:10.640 --> 00:19:14.160 we're so engaged, and for him to be dropped all 357 00:19:14.200 --> 00:19:17.480 the way down to the fifth round, I look, and 358 00:19:17.519 --> 00:19:19.279 you guys watch college football. I don't know if he's 359 00:19:19.279 --> 00:19:22.200 worse than Dylan Gabriel. I don't think he's a worst 360 00:19:22.240 --> 00:19:24.079 quarterback process than some of the other guys that went 361 00:19:24.119 --> 00:19:26.880 before him. So that gets a little funky for me. 362 00:19:27.440 --> 00:19:29.400 But as far as him falling out of the first round, 363 00:19:29.400 --> 00:19:32.039 I wasn't that shocked one more. Do you think, like said, 364 00:19:32.400 --> 00:19:35.680 the narratives that the media has to run with, the 365 00:19:36.640 --> 00:19:42.039 negative narratives are what drives content and attention, unfortunately, and 366 00:19:42.079 --> 00:19:43.559 I think that's what happened for sure. 367 00:19:43.599 --> 00:19:45.480 I wanted to follow up with this, do you think 368 00:19:45.559 --> 00:19:48.319 his dad did him a bit of a disservice because 369 00:19:48.680 --> 00:19:51.720 the fact of the matter is Dion Sanders could sandbag 370 00:19:51.759 --> 00:19:54.039 interviews all he wants, it didn't matter. He was one 371 00:19:54.079 --> 00:19:56.119 of the best, if not the best cornerbacks in history 372 00:19:56.160 --> 00:19:59.799 pro football. And there were moments where Dion said things 373 00:19:59.799 --> 00:20:03.079 like we're gonna get involved where he plays, and it 374 00:20:03.160 --> 00:20:07.039 might be Eli Manning's situation, and and Deon saying he's 375 00:20:07.039 --> 00:20:09.039 a top five pick, he should be the number one pick, 376 00:20:09.079 --> 00:20:13.240 and you know, maybe the power of Deon Sanders swayed everybody, 377 00:20:13.240 --> 00:20:16.119 including Vegas, by the way, did not meet just media. 378 00:20:16.200 --> 00:20:20.119 Vegas at one point last year had Shador as the 379 00:20:20.119 --> 00:20:21.680 favorite to be the number one pick. Do you think 380 00:20:21.680 --> 00:20:24.160 throughout this whole process, Shador may have been let down 381 00:20:24.200 --> 00:20:26.160 a little bit and done a disservice by his dad? 382 00:20:27.319 --> 00:20:29.759 Oh yeah, I think so. I think it's fair to say, 383 00:20:29.880 --> 00:20:33.039 like you said for him. Let's put it this way. 384 00:20:33.079 --> 00:20:36.000 If you and I are running an NFL team and 385 00:20:36.759 --> 00:20:38.559 we have a first round pick, we need a quarterback. 386 00:20:39.319 --> 00:20:42.319 Why would we risk a quarterback who again, he's not 387 00:20:42.759 --> 00:20:45.680 no offense, not Josh Allen right now, Cam Newton somewhere 388 00:20:45.720 --> 00:20:48.640 where he's supremely physically gifted. We're gonna bet on the trades. 389 00:20:49.960 --> 00:20:54.440 You don't. Why would I risk, you know, Deon Sanders 390 00:20:54.480 --> 00:20:59.720 potentially affecting our plan? You know, with a first round pick, 391 00:21:00.079 --> 00:21:02.599 it's the value is just not worth the risk, and 392 00:21:02.720 --> 00:21:04.920 even potentially a second round pick or a third round pick, 393 00:21:05.079 --> 00:21:08.440 because then all of a sudden, the conversation becomes about 394 00:21:08.480 --> 00:21:11.880 that and that toxicity. If we're being real as opposed 395 00:21:11.920 --> 00:21:15.000 to what can you provide for our football team and 396 00:21:15.079 --> 00:21:19.279 does he fit as opposed to does Daddy like where 397 00:21:19.319 --> 00:21:22.839 he's going that? And I do believe that that did 398 00:21:22.880 --> 00:21:26.000 a disservice to him in terms of where he ended 399 00:21:26.079 --> 00:21:29.119 up being landed. And you know, some people have written 400 00:21:29.119 --> 00:21:33.039 that both Shador and Deon needed that humbling if the 401 00:21:33.079 --> 00:21:38.279