Speaker 1: With Laurent's segle And from London and Gerard Reed from Berlin.
Speaker 2: This is redefining energy.
Speaker 3: Today.
Speaker 2: On redefining energy, we're going to talk about solar ground.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: And as ultimately you were at the Solar Power so
Speaker 2: Much a few months back and you moderated a panel
Speaker 2: which was around the team winning the Flex challenges, which
Speaker 2: obviously is really critical to SOLO going forward.
Speaker 3: Yeah. So I was invited by SO Europe who organized
Speaker 3: the whole debate. It was in Brussels, you know, great
Speaker 3: theater and oh my god, we were like six on stage,
Speaker 3: which was difficult to moderate.
Speaker 2: But no better man than you to step up to.
Speaker 3: The challenge, certainly. So I had on stage Andrea Wetchler
Speaker 3: from the European Parliament Regacia and she's from DG Energy.
Speaker 3: And then from a perspective, I had Nick Bitzios from Metland,
Speaker 3: Juan river Abad from ABAD, Roller Vlasio Suffliss from Light
Speaker 3: Source BP and finally Jose Manuel Cavallo from Arslo Metal.
Speaker 3: And the old debate was what's the green industrial deal?
Speaker 3: Does it work? Does it answers the current issue faced
Speaker 3: by the solar developers and the energy consumer and the
Speaker 3: debate was very lively and we had the interesting outcomes.
Speaker 2: Oh why don't we listen to its.
Speaker 3: Hello for those who are leaving the room, you're making
Speaker 3: a big mistake because the action is going to be here.
Speaker 3: Thank you for the introduction. As this is going to
Speaker 3: be recorded for a live podcast. There's no video, it's
Speaker 3: just audio. So when I raise my hand, you need
Speaker 3: to make some noise. I invite my six fellow panelists
Speaker 3: to climb on the stage. So we have a very
Speaker 3: diverse panel, two regulators to producers of solar and to
Speaker 3: consumer of solar energy. And the question is do we
Speaker 3: have a great harmony between all my panelists or are
Speaker 3: they going to be a bit of a friction, which
Speaker 3: I hope because it makes always better material. So we
Speaker 3: have Nick Bitios, the head of the Brussel's office at Metland,
Speaker 3: Juan Rivier Abad, head of Global Renovables at hiber Rolla Vlast,
Speaker 3: josufls COO Light Source BP, jose Manuel Carvalo, head of
Speaker 3: Runerable Energy at Arcelometale, Andrea Weschler. So that we already
Speaker 3: thank you. Rega Cia. Oh my god, I mean your
Speaker 3: title is a mouseful. So acting hou runevable energy system integration,
Speaker 3: the energy no cool So you're ready, I'm going to
Speaker 3: ask the first question. So the first question is for
Speaker 3: Andrea and then Polar or vice versa. So you've put
Speaker 3: together this great Clean Industrial Deal and especially apparently there
Speaker 3: are four main subcategories around industrial decombanization, affordable energy and
Speaker 3: flex For you, the question is very simple, how the
Speaker 3: success looks like in the next five years.
Speaker 1: Well, thank you very much for having me here today,
Speaker 1: and I have to clearly sad. The Clean Industrial Dea,
Speaker 1: of course, is the work of the Commission and Parliament
Speaker 1: and representative of the people. We have of course given
Speaker 1: substantively input on what we are expecting after the elections
Speaker 1: last year. Now the expectation in terms of the Clean
Speaker 1: Industrial Deal and especially also the Energy Affordable Energy Act
Speaker 1: is certainly the action plan that we see decobnization continuing,
Speaker 1: but also that we see competitiveness in these areas increasing.
Speaker 1: And an additional factor is that energy security must be
Speaker 1: a key priority for the next couple of years. So
Speaker 1: as a parliamentarian, we'll focus on filling the Industrial Deal
Speaker 1: with life, seeing that we get down the energy costs
Speaker 1: for the people, for the industry, whilst securing supply of
Speaker 1: energy for the industry and the people.
Speaker 4: Cruder oh la, so no, thank you very much, San,
Speaker 4: really a blige to join this event, and congratulations of
Speaker 4: course to SOA BAA Europe. So I think in the
Speaker 4: convicts of the Clean Industrial Deal and the Affordable Reaction Plan,
Speaker 4: but more generally for this mandate, what we would like
Speaker 4: to see is progress on tackling the fundamental challenges that
Speaker 4: we're mentioned before, so competitiveness of course, affordable energy, energy
Speaker 4: security and of course link very much to competitiveness as
Speaker 4: to sides of the same coin, the carbonization. And for
Speaker 4: this I think of course, coming from the angle of
Speaker 4: very much my digit and my unit. What we see
Speaker 4: is that renewable energy, solar also other renewable eno resources
Speaker 4: are really the key to breach these challenges together. And
Speaker 4: this means in terms of measuring success reducing permitting times
Speaker 4: on the supply side, so that really progresses much quicker
Speaker 4: on deployment of renewables. It also requires flexibility of course
Speaker 4: for integrating renewables into the system, so the man response
Speaker 4: storage coming together.
Speaker 5: It also would require.
Speaker 4: Looking at as peving up and increasing the rate of
Speaker 4: electrification because it's really a way to bring the benefits
Speaker 4: of renewables to the end consumers, being industry or others,
Speaker 4: and of course removing the barriers to for instance, long
Speaker 4: term contracts such as PPAs to then again bring the
Speaker 4: benefits to the end consumers.
Speaker 3: Okay, very nice. Now, before we got my full fillo corporate,
Speaker 3: I like to correct the theme of competitiveness, because there
Speaker 3: is this feeling that everything's very stable in the European grid,
Speaker 3: or that we lost competitiveness. But when I look back
Speaker 3: the past twenty years, we have installed three hundred and
Speaker 3: fifty gig awad of solar, we have installed two hundred
Speaker 3: and fifty gya awad of wind, we have retired one
Speaker 3: hundred and fifty gig awad of coal and thirty ahad
Speaker 3: of nuclear. And of course the question is, oh, well,
Speaker 3: what about the price? What about the price? Well, it's
Speaker 3: very simple. If you go back twenty years ago, the
Speaker 3: merchant price in Europe was forty five year open maga.
Speaker 3: What hour, which adjusted for inflation, is seventy open maga.
Speaker 3: What our today And if you go on the ex
Speaker 3: like I did yesterday, the calendar twenty eight is at
Speaker 3: seventy row. So in fact, the price is the same,
Speaker 3: despite the fact that we've managed to install a lot
Speaker 3: of vulnerables. Now. Of course, when people compare to the US,
Speaker 3: that's a totally different story because twenty years ago their
Speaker 3: prices were fifty percent above hours. The price of GM
Speaker 3: was sixty eight dollars or maga what hour, and in
Speaker 3: Texas was sixty which would be one hundred today. But
Speaker 3: now they are not at one hundred today, they are
Speaker 3: at forty eight in pgm, and they are twenty seven
Speaker 3: in Texas. So our competitiveness as stay flat. Their competitiveness
Speaker 3: has improved a lot, and that's what we're kind of
Speaker 3: fighting against. Unfortunately, we don't have a c of cheap gas,
Speaker 3: so we need to do it with vulnerables. Knowing that,
Speaker 3: I'm gonna ask the first question to Juana. So you're
Speaker 3: typet La. Can you describe what you I mean, everybody
Speaker 3: knows hybat all I. Can you describe how solar is
Speaker 3: important for high Batola.
Speaker 5: Of course, thank you very much for inviting me here,
Speaker 5: but I just wanted to say, you said the beginning
Speaker 5: this is going to be a podcast, and you wanted
Speaker 5: some conflict here or some discussion. I have to say
Speaker 5: that For me for the moment, I'm very happy because
Speaker 5: what I'm listening, what I'm hearing exactly what we want
Speaker 5: to hear. If we're looking forward. The only solution for
Speaker 5: Europe now is electrifying and antifying with your nibules. And
Speaker 5: this is a choice that Ivanrola made twenty years ago.
Speaker 5: Twenty years ago, it wasn't that easy to decide that
Speaker 5: we were the first utility to bet Back then it
Speaker 5: was mostly wind. But we have bet on wind, we
Speaker 5: have closed our coal plants, we have bet on solar
Speaker 5: when solar became affordable, and we are one of the
Speaker 5: main places in solar now and we are most committed
Speaker 5: to the energy transition because we think is the only
Speaker 5: way forward here in Europe. And as well, we all
Speaker 5: know we don't have gas, we don't have oil, so
Speaker 5: we need to play our cards. And our cards here
Speaker 5: is renewables which are local, which is going to help
Speaker 5: us for security, for competitiveness, and we have to speed
Speaker 5: up forward. Of course, this is going to be a
Speaker 5: lot of challenges and here that the difficulties of investing
Speaker 5: in solar right now. Even if we invest sixty five
Speaker 5: gigabas last year, it is true it was today or
Speaker 5: yesterday in Spain, we had seven hours of zero price.
Speaker 3: This year, we have.
Speaker 5: Almost three months, so let's see what happens this spring.
Speaker 5: So there are challenges ahead. The good news is that
Speaker 5: we have the solutions. The bad news is that it's
Speaker 5: going to be hard to put its own way. But
Speaker 5: so how to do this? We know the path and
Speaker 5: that's why we should. We should be going.
Speaker 3: Good, good good. Okay, so far very nice. I'm going
Speaker 3: to ask another provider plus shows, same nice symphony. Everything's okay.
Speaker 6: First of all, I'm very glad to be here. Thank
Speaker 6: you so much for hosting us. I think the last
Speaker 6: couple of days, especially on the co forum, it was
Speaker 6: interesting to see that we are not alone. We have
Speaker 6: very common concerns, but also very much common opportunities. So
Speaker 6: I would reterate the same message. Light Source is predominantly
Speaker 6: a solar developer, so we develop, construct, and operate. We
Speaker 6: have fifty gigoles of pipeline, of which a very big
Speaker 6: chunk is mature pipeline in Europe. So really the question here,
Speaker 6: just back on the same message, is how quickly can
Speaker 6: we deploy it and how can we remove all the
Speaker 6: obstacles that exist at the moment in order to do that,
Speaker 6: so we all know that the solution is there. I
Speaker 6: would add in the element of security, element of climate
Speaker 6: change and affordable energy, the speed of deployment, right, so
Speaker 6: like two thousand and three you needed a here to
Speaker 6: do a gigot, twenty twenty three, that's a gigot per day.
Speaker 6: So it's not a question of if we have enough
Speaker 6: to do things. The capital is there is how do
Speaker 6: we remove the obstacles? And those obstacles are or the
Speaker 6: known stuff. The first thing is around great and obviously
Speaker 6: flexibility is one of the solutions, and utilizing what we
Speaker 6: have much more efficiently is one. And then on the
Speaker 6: permitting side, obviously, what can we do to implement the
Speaker 6: very good ideas that the Commission is actually having. The
Speaker 6: ideas are there, how are the implemented and national level
Speaker 6: is the question, but very positive.
Speaker 3: Okay, it's good. Now we have the other side of
Speaker 3: the ledger, so we have the still industry and the
Speaker 3: yelluminium industry. Guys, everything's okay, or you want to complain
Speaker 3: a bit please, We're going to start with Jose thank.
Speaker 7: You for the question. I mean, very pleased to be
Speaker 7: here today from oslow metal. Basically, on our side, what
Speaker 7: we need is the competitive energy and we have that
Speaker 7: solar is very competitive, so we don't complain on these
Speaker 7: seven hours of.
Speaker 3: Zero europe magower is not a problem.
Speaker 7: And what executive vice president as Rivera said, we need
Speaker 7: to have a sustainable business. So for us, we understand
Speaker 7: that there are these seven hours of a zero price
Speaker 7: are going to be there. This is not going to
Speaker 7: motivate any of the players to invest in new renewals.
Speaker 7: And on our side, we need more renewables, we more volume,
Speaker 7: more stable, so that's why we are very supportive of
Speaker 7: the flex initiative.
Speaker 3: Yes, you know, still looks for baseloads.
Speaker 7: So it's very difficult when we try to discuss PPAs
Speaker 7: on solar and we tell them we need baseload, some
Speaker 7: of the counterparts run away quite fast. And that's it
Speaker 7: because basically it's true that our operations, and this is
Speaker 7: a good side of the transition programs, we are going
Speaker 7: to have more electric card furnaces. These are flexible assets,
Speaker 7: but the base of our operation is still you know,
Speaker 7: less furnaces, is still continuous casting, continuous operations, so we
Speaker 7: still look for baseload. We want more renewals, so I
Speaker 7: think it's going to on a good way. We are
Speaker 7: also looking ourselves into better storage. I think some of
Speaker 7: the players there already have invested. We have not ourselves
Speaker 7: did it, but we believe if we can get cheap
Speaker 7: solar together with some storage capacities, we'll be able to
Speaker 7: have this pizzle power that we are looking for.
Speaker 3: Thank you wow, Nick.
Speaker 8: I've been introduced as a consumer, but I would say
Speaker 8: at Metlan we look at solar power from just about
Speaker 8: every angle that is imaginable. So on the one hand,
Speaker 8: we are a very significant developer of solo projects all
Speaker 8: across the world, so that ranges from Australia, Canada, Chile,
Speaker 8: most countries in Europe. We have a pipeline that currently
Speaker 8: sits at around nine gigawatts of solar PV another two
Speaker 8: gigawatts of battery storage, very much feeding into the flex
Speaker 8: them and we are also an electricity utility in Greece,
Speaker 8: so representing about twenty percent of the retail market. We
Speaker 8: have a higher share in generation as well. But as
Speaker 8: you've mentioned, Laurent, the main reason I guess that I've
Speaker 8: been invited to speak to you today is because we
Speaker 8: are a very significant consumer as well of electricity. So
Speaker 8: the aluminium plant that we have in Greece we consume
Speaker 8: about three terror what hours of electricity each year. That
Speaker 8: translates into roughly six percent of the consumption annually in
Speaker 8: the entire country of Greece. And if we think about
Speaker 8: the major challenges that the solar industry is facing, Juan,
Speaker 8: you mentioned a couple of them, negative prices, curtailments. A
Speaker 8: big part of that is obviously of solving it is
Speaker 8: getting the flexibility into the system. But another one is
Speaker 8: that electrification has not so far been progressing at the
Speaker 8: rate that we wanted and that it needs to. And
Speaker 8: many of the existing industrial installations, because of this energy
Speaker 8: crisis we've been going through, have been forced to shut down.
Speaker 8: So we had two years in a row where instead
Speaker 8: of electricity consumption increasing, it actually dropped, and then it's
Speaker 8: sort of flatlined last year. So I'm here to tell
Speaker 8: you how we can have a long, thriving, growing electrified
Speaker 8: industry in Europe.
Speaker 3: Wow, Andrea are how do you react to that? Did
Speaker 3: you learn anything or it's already in the plan?
Speaker 1: Well, I think there is very important points that we
Speaker 1: are already discussing in the European Parliament, let's talk about
Speaker 1: the energy internsive industry. So we've got a debata on
Speaker 1: the agenda next week and we're working on an initiative
Speaker 1: report because electrification certainly is the backbone of the energy
Speaker 1: transformation that we're seeing. But at the same time, there
Speaker 1: is hard to electrify industries and we need to develop
Speaker 1: strategies on how to cater for them, and that's been
Speaker 1: very important input we are receiving from the industry on
Speaker 1: how we can make flexible energy solutions like solar entity
Speaker 1: more baseload, how we can make it more flexible, how
Speaker 1: we increase the storage capacities for the renewable energy. It's
Speaker 1: the second very important point that I took away, and
Speaker 1: that's the speed of deployment, where we absolutely need to
Speaker 1: decrease and cut the red shape in order to make
Speaker 1: this big success. And Parliament is certainly working on this
Speaker 1: as well. And there is a third point that has
Speaker 1: so far not been mentioned, which is great congestion that
Speaker 1: we are facing, and that's another point that Parliament is
Speaker 1: working on at the moment with an own initiative report
Speaker 1: on how we can get the grid up to speed. Also,
Speaker 1: the grid interconnecting various European countries in order to provide
Speaker 1: for the flexibility that we need in between countries to
Speaker 1: sort of balance out the various increases and decreases of
Speaker 1: energy supply. So I think these are very important points
Speaker 1: confirming the focus that has been laid in the European Parliament.
Speaker 1: And so yes, that's our response. We're working on some
Speaker 1: of the areas and all the rest of it we
Speaker 1: take as homework in order to work in further areas.
Speaker 3: And Pola, did you learn anything or is it just
Speaker 3: like a normal there at work.
Speaker 4: No, I think it's the emphasism on some elements is
Speaker 4: quite important. Then, definitely, regarding some of the references to
Speaker 4: red tape, an area where we see that there is
Speaker 4: both a lack of capacity often but also improvements that
Speaker 4: could be undertaken in relation to the speed of the
Speaker 4: administrative procedures and relates indeed to permitting that I had
Speaker 4: mentioned that really will allow moving faster for the deployment
Speaker 4: of renewavers. And some of it also connects to some
Speaker 4: of the elements that was mentioned in relation to grets
Speaker 4: for instance, so faster permitting also on the grid side,
Speaker 4: on the storage side, and not only on the renewver
Speaker 4: generation side, so that's one element that I believe connects
Speaker 4: as well, and of course we have also announced further
Speaker 4: actions in this context with the Plant Brisk package that
Speaker 4: has also been announced. Then there is also the element
Speaker 4: of electrification that as well, as you know, we will
Speaker 4: be working on an electrification action plan because it is
Speaker 4: definitely key for bringing in an efficient way, also the
Speaker 4: benefits of renewables to industry and other consumers, so that's
Speaker 4: also something that we are looking into. And then of
Speaker 4: course in terms of solutions in the clean industry, there
Speaker 4: there is source an emphasis on financing, simplification of a
Speaker 4: sit date also targeted some of the challenges that we
Speaker 4: see are faced on the industry side, but also the
Speaker 4: deployment of some of the tools that we already have there,
Speaker 4: for instance in terms of long term contracts PPAs. And
Speaker 4: then quite important as well to make the link to
Speaker 4: the legislation that is already in placed, so also working
Speaker 4: to make sure that what is already there and attackle
Speaker 4: some of these aspects is then also implemented more quickly.
Speaker 3: Okay, so I'm going to give you two ideas, so
Speaker 3: write them down because I'm not going to repeat myself.
Speaker 3: Number one, you want to do an industrial thing, concentrate
Speaker 3: on heat below two hundred C. Okay, that's the easy one.
Speaker 3: I don't know why people get gangbusters about trying to
Speaker 3: decalbanize steel, which is really tough and really expensive, or cement,
Speaker 3: whereas half of the gas is below two hundred sea
Speaker 3: and to sea, we'll get a lot of industrial ittoms.
Speaker 3: So focus on this. This is easy, it's winnable. It's
Speaker 3: the opien jobs. Focus on minus two hundred sea for
Speaker 3: heat and the rest for later. That's number one, number two,
Speaker 3: and it's great because at some point you push PPAs,
Speaker 3: which is a market best solution. But at the same
Speaker 3: time we see government who are throwing auctions for solar,
Speaker 3: which was great fifteen years ago to kick start the market.
Speaker 3: But now when the markets stop, you know, reaching maturity,
Speaker 3: this is a bargain you are, of course, I'm sure
Speaker 3: the guy from a light sauce you know, is going
Speaker 3: to throw a tomato at me. But you know, it's
Speaker 3: just too easy. So if you really want to do
Speaker 3: solar auctions, at least you put four hour flex or
Speaker 3: for our storage. That would be a good way. But
Speaker 3: don't throw public money after limited value because in Spain,
Speaker 3: what there is a thirty gigawat of solaw already. Okay, fine,
Speaker 3: do an auction for storage, just don't do a naked solar.
Speaker 3: I am I fellow producer agreeing with me? Or am
Speaker 3: I going to be stabbed in the back in the
Speaker 3: next twenty minutes? Please happy to take that. BEZ is
Speaker 3: the only thing that we can actually do fast at
Speaker 3: the moment. If you want a quick result on the
Speaker 3: grid on flexibility and affordability, the only thing you can
Speaker 3: do is, as I said, utilize the grid that we
Speaker 3: have a bit better and therefore do more BEZ. So
Speaker 3: from that perspective, there are far more effective measures. We
Speaker 3: all know where cartailmen is well have projects, we know
Speaker 3: where the problem is where you can have very very
Speaker 3: targeted solutions. What we need from an investment perspective, because
Speaker 3: as I said, the pipelines are there, not just as
Speaker 3: a number of individuals, I'm sure better less as well.
Speaker 3: And the only thing that's missing is really a long
Speaker 3: term price signal so that we are able to make
Speaker 3: a reliable investment choice. And that is something that if
Speaker 3: you target it correctly. Connecting with my previous point.
Speaker 6: Then that makes more sense now on the CFD and
Speaker 6: the auctions, we have too many times seen that we
Speaker 6: have auctions that have certain qualification criteria and that criteria
Speaker 6: is not really placed in the right way in a
Speaker 6: sense of Okay, I have a solar project, but maybe
Speaker 6: the problem that we have, as I was saying before,
Speaker 6: is not in that particular node. So you get capacity
Speaker 6: in a place that doesn't deliver as much as it
Speaker 6: could do in the short term, as I was saying before,
Speaker 6: So you have talken storage as well, so you get
Speaker 6: people to just qualify and put a little bit of
Speaker 6: storage just to qualify and win, and then you have
Speaker 6: a lot of people who win the auctions at the
Speaker 6: prices that they cannot deliver. So it's not a golden solution.
Speaker 6: It could be part of the bigger picture, but they're
Speaker 6: much better targeted solutions. And if I would ask something,
Speaker 6: is really a long term reliable price signal one?
Speaker 5: Yes, thank you. I would like to add because I
Speaker 5: fully agree with with lessons here, and actually you've said
Speaker 5: that in your first point here. We are in need
Speaker 5: of electrification and flexible electrification and we should focus on
Speaker 5: the low hugging fruits that we have there and lents
Speaker 5: I talked about below two hundred degrees, that's a huge part.
Speaker 5: I would even go to below five hundred degrees because
Speaker 5: below five hundred we have already electrical technologies that can
Speaker 5: deliver and there will be also, I hope, a lot
Speaker 5: of possibilities to include thermal storage. So this electification of
Speaker 5: this industry can be electrified at lower cost and very important,
Speaker 5: most probably they would become flexible loads, and this can
Speaker 5: help all the deployment of renew books because I think
Speaker 5: the problem is not mean. We have made a huge
Speaker 5: effort in permitting in the past five years, we have
Speaker 5: sad deploying renewables, So the problem is not really there.
Speaker 5: The problem is somewhere else. The problem is that now
Speaker 5: we are facing a wall, which is we need the
Speaker 5: demand because never forget that all the targets for renewals
Speaker 5: deployment we have put forward is for the entire economy.
Speaker 5: So we're looking at this it doesn't make sense to
Speaker 5: employ that much renebles if we don't electrify the whole economy.
Speaker 5: Those are the targets that for everything, not for the
Speaker 5: twenty three percent of energy consumption that electify. We need
Speaker 5: to go much further than that. If not, it doesn't
Speaker 5: make sense. So I love what you said about going
Speaker 5: to the low hanging free. Let's do that. And this
Speaker 5: will also help sure the big energy intensive consumers because
Speaker 5: having this energy there, this flexible energy, will make this
Speaker 5: system much more efficient. Looking forward, we will be able
Speaker 5: to deploy much renewables and will have this flexibility, will
Speaker 5: allow everybody, even the base one ones, to access stable prices.
Speaker 5: So in the length term, that's a solution. And I
Speaker 5: would say, besides focusing on these below five hundred degrees, well,
Speaker 5: in three words, greeds maybe grids, So you said that before,
Speaker 5: so we really need the greeds to deploy. It's a
Speaker 5: non rigod option there. And besides that, and we were
Speaker 5: talking about a lot of affordability, and we haven't talked
Speaker 5: about one thing, which is I think is the single
Speaker 5: most effective in the short term measure. It could be
Speaker 5: done right now in the words political will, which is
Speaker 5: clean the electricity bills of taxes and levies. In Spain,
Speaker 5: for every kill of what our consumed in electricity, the
Speaker 5: government gets four times the same taxes than the gate
Speaker 5: for every kill of what hour of gas consumed, and
Speaker 5: we're told go electric. I say, yeah, but if I
Speaker 5: go electric, I pay four times more taxes can stay
Speaker 5: in gas. That's Spain about very similar in most of
Speaker 5: Europe because governments have been used to basically use electricicize
Speaker 5: them as a text collector for a lot of things.
Speaker 5: This doesn't work anymore. We are competing is not anymore isolated.
Speaker 5: We're competing with gas, and we're competing with all countries.
Speaker 5: If we want affordability, and it was said in the
Speaker 5: affordability package, but now we have to make all the
Speaker 5: countries act on that. And it is the shortest, most
Speaker 5: effective single measure that you can do that because all
Speaker 5: the rest build the grids, deployment, renewables, electrifying, all the
Speaker 5: It's gonna take time.
Speaker 3: It is a future.
Speaker 5: It's gonna take time.
Speaker 3: I like that, But I can tell you your worst enemy
Speaker 3: is my cousin. I've got a cousin. She called me
Speaker 3: the other day and she said, oh ah, you're into sodah. Yeah,
Speaker 3: I discover. So what did you do? I went to
Speaker 3: the supermarket and I both forced on our panels. Cost
Speaker 3: me fifty a piece. I'm gonna plug them in myden.
Speaker 3: I said, have you call your utility or something. So
Speaker 3: of course not I'm just gonna plug. And now she's
Speaker 3: going to disappear from the grid for six months per year,
Speaker 3: and the first of October she's going to put them
Speaker 3: in her garage and that's it. So that's very interesting,
Speaker 3: is the revolution from the people from the bottom and
Speaker 3: from the batteries is the same. I've invested in batteries.
Speaker 3: I've got all warehouses. You know, can you just put
Speaker 3: the batteries in the back and you know, we're next
Speaker 3: to the substation and we're going to do a bit
Speaker 3: of our flex ourselves because we don't want third party flex.
Speaker 3: So the technology is going to create some Every participant
Speaker 3: is going to become a possumer. That's a new name.
Speaker 3: And there's no big theory. They just go to the
Speaker 3: supermarket or you know, they call a guy like me,
Speaker 3: and you know they'll get the battery on the truck
Speaker 3: and plug it their warehouse two weeks later. And so
Speaker 3: that's very interesting. Now mix the old system harder to predict,
Speaker 3: which means that the layer of digital on the top
Speaker 3: has to be perfect transparent. So if other regulators you
Speaker 3: need to pass or so low about data that data
Speaker 3: are fully shared, fully transparent so that the market participant
Speaker 3: can make better decisions. Now let's go to our two consumers.
Speaker 3: So far, what you heard? You like it? Or can
Speaker 3: I get a bit of a ramp?
Speaker 7: Actually there is one part I disagree, and it was
Speaker 7: with you because I understand that you were trying to
Speaker 7: push for the glentrification of it and living still the
Speaker 7: conversation for later and basically what is happening already. So
Speaker 7: on our side, we already decide to take some plant
Speaker 7: on a full one other percent renewable and actually one
Speaker 7: of the plants is our cesstyl plant in Bazvasco in Spain,
Speaker 7: and that is the plant actually producing our magnellis. It's
Speaker 7: our product for the strectures of solar projects. So basically
Speaker 7: we decided in that plant to use only scrap so
Speaker 7: only used steel is recycled, and to use one hundred
Speaker 7: percent renewal electricity. And then what we found on the
Speaker 7: other sides was that there was a market. So there
Speaker 7: was a market for low carbon steel and it was
Speaker 7: not on purpose.
Speaker 3: But one of our.
Speaker 7: First projects was in Portugal, which is my country, and
Speaker 7: for a client which is an EBA droller and our
Speaker 7: client which is Gonvai Solar, so the supplier of the trackers.
Speaker 7: They decided to use all the steel for this project,
Speaker 7: which is a forty one mega pick. All the steel
Speaker 7: is low carbon steel, so that goes in this root
Speaker 7: which is recycled let's say, scrap steel and then renewal
Speaker 7: electricity which has seventy percent lower seal. So I don't
Speaker 7: think we should leave this seventy percent for later after
Speaker 7: the EAT. I think we should do it as soon
Speaker 7: as it's a business case. And nowadays this change for
Speaker 7: electric furnace with renewed electricity is already feasible. Some of
Speaker 7: the government is publicatorisult not here anymore.
Speaker 3: What we still need to do.
Speaker 7: Later is to replace our blest furnaces with dri when
Speaker 7: there will not be using anymore, you know, like we
Speaker 7: invested in Brazil in Passam in a place which stan
Speaker 7: is doing the steel slabs and an option for Europe
Speaker 7: is to import slabs from the US or from Brazil.
Speaker 7: We still believe, and we are part of the European Organization,
Speaker 7: still believe that it's possible to do the still making in Europe,
Speaker 7: and nowadays I think with the defense team is not
Speaker 7: a matter anymore of costs is also a matter of
Speaker 7: a security. We can do still for tanks in three days.
Speaker 7: If you have to bring the still from Brazil or
Speaker 7: from China, it will take some months. We need to
Speaker 7: invest in Europe.
Speaker 3: I would say, excellent, pivote no more climate security, Well done, Nichse.
Speaker 8: I'd say, look, the end goal is absolutely clear. We
Speaker 8: need to electrify Thiss I think a very very common
Speaker 8: objective that the matches everyone in the room, the suppliers
Speaker 8: and the consumers as well. I would say that the
Speaker 8: tools that we've been using so far to get there
Speaker 8: have not been perfect. So we have a big part
Speaker 8: of our strategy is of course carbon pricing, which is
Speaker 8: working fairly well in the electricity sector with some impacts
Speaker 8: we have to be care full of in terms of
Speaker 8: the prices, but in terms of industries that are exposed
Speaker 8: to global competition, no one is electrifying because of the
Speaker 8: carbon price, so the incentive structures are not quite there.
Speaker 8: If you look at the Innovation Fund in particular, it
Speaker 8: does tend to discriminate against electrification in favor of other
Speaker 8: decarbonization solutions. And then the overarching challenge in terms of
Speaker 8: boosting electrification is really that the electricity price is still
Speaker 8: too high, so I think we can come up with
Speaker 8: innovative solutions also to solve the problem that mister Sufflis mentioned,
Speaker 8: bundling PPAs and batteries, securing the off take with the
Speaker 8: consumer in order to create that long term signal, helping
Speaker 8: our industries as well exist and also electrify the other
Speaker 8: processes that are not yet electrified, boosting the consumption, reducing
Speaker 8: the solar catailments, and making sure that both sides of
Speaker 8: these equations are moving together towards where we both want
Speaker 8: to get to.
Speaker 3: You are not alone. That's what Rio Tinto is doing
Speaker 3: in Australia with their solar A eight World battery now.
Speaker 8: So I briefly respond to that. So that was incentivized
Speaker 8: by a two billion scheme for green aluminum, so they
Speaker 8: have been able to take on the extra cost that
Speaker 8: is evolved in that. The biggest challenge we have is
Speaker 8: matching the variable supply, as was mentioned at the start,
Speaker 8: with the baseload consumption. This will become easier over time
Speaker 8: as we get more flexibility into the system, as we
Speaker 8: get storage, as we gt grits. What we need is
Speaker 8: a bridging solution to get from where we are today
Speaker 8: to where we want to get to because in the
Speaker 8: meantime it's going to be really, really tricky with the prices,
Speaker 8: and I think this is the main thing that we
Speaker 8: need to deliver with the Clean Industrial Deal.
Speaker 3: Okay, so before we conclude, because we're almost at the
Speaker 3: end of our conversation and it very fast, So thank
Speaker 3: you guys. There's three up stakers you have every time
Speaker 3: you give a police So number one is called sprinkling.
Speaker 3: Everybody screaming, so everybody gets something, but everybody get not
Speaker 3: a lot, so it's kind of useless, so you sprinkle subsidies.
Speaker 3: The second one, I would say is choking. So okay, fine,
Speaker 3: I'll give you your subsidies, but I'm gonna put so
Speaker 3: much condition at touch that at the end of the
Speaker 3: day nobody can reach the subsidies because it's too complex.
Speaker 3: And the last one is what I call the bargain
Speaker 3: is you know what, I would have done it anyway,
Speaker 3: but you give me a subsidy, thank you very much.
Speaker 3: So these are the three upstackers. So you need to
Speaker 3: be smart, and I'm sure you are. There's so many
Speaker 3: smart people here in Brussels. It's time for your last statement.
Speaker 3: So who wants to go first?
Speaker 5: Please if I have the last for one thing now
Speaker 5: is please clean the electricity bills. That's a call for
Speaker 5: every single state in Europe.
Speaker 3: Clean.
Speaker 5: It is really worthwhile for the future.
Speaker 3: Wow, that was short.
Speaker 6: We're pretty much in a very interesting time where you
Speaker 6: have this conflict of moving fast and delivering things because
Speaker 6: geopolitics have kind of caught up with us, and at
Speaker 6: the same time you want to support your internal industry,
Speaker 6: and that is a very tricky way to deal with
Speaker 6: it because obviously the supply chain at the moment is global,
Speaker 6: and that global supply chain is the one that has
Speaker 6: actually brought us here. We have sixty seven gigabottes or
Speaker 6: sixty five gigabots a year because of this. The measures
Speaker 6: that we're taking, and I think the direction and everything
Speaker 6: we're hearing is absolutely where we need to be, and
Speaker 6: we're very thankful that actually the direction is there. Implementation
Speaker 6: is the key difference. Now we have proven that we
Speaker 6: can be cheap, we have proven that we're obviously helping
Speaker 6: with the climate change. It is secure energy we can
Speaker 6: deploy fast. The only thing remaining is really this political
Speaker 6: push to ensure that we are able to actually deploy
Speaker 6: and the one thing that's missing is bringing the population together.
Speaker 6: And I think communication wise, we can do so much
Speaker 6: more to ensure that people understand and the perception of
Speaker 6: people around renewables and solar and storage in particular is
Speaker 6: where we need it to be, because at the end
Speaker 6: of the day, it's them voting and whatever plans we
Speaker 6: might have, whatever ideas we might have, they need to
Speaker 6: buy into it. And the direct length of that to
Speaker 6: the bills, for example, is perhaps one way to show it,
Speaker 6: but to show what exactly is the impact on them.
Speaker 6: We definitely need to do more on comms, because.
Speaker 3: The solutions are there.
Speaker 6: The only thing we need is to make sure that
Speaker 6: we remove the obstacles to deliver it.
Speaker 3: Could okay, oh wow, thank you, Jose.
Speaker 7: On our side, basically, I see a very positive cycle
Speaker 7: because we see the market asking us low carbon steel,
Speaker 7: and the only way to have the low carbon steal
Speaker 7: is to have renewable energy. So we see indeed the
Speaker 7: positive cycle here that we have renewable energy. We did
Speaker 7: we can already reduce our CEO to footprint by sixty
Speaker 7: seventy percent, and then we supply these to the projects
Speaker 7: and then we really create us within European supply chain,
Speaker 7: a much less SEO to footprint on the different projects.
Speaker 7: I think this is also something that I mean, we
Speaker 7: are doing ourselves as oars loomto outside of Europe and
Speaker 7: we are investing. We are building right now over for
Speaker 7: under megawats in Brazil. We are have invested over six
Speaker 7: hundred mega in India. Here in Europe we have not
Speaker 7: done that because we have seen quite a lot of
Speaker 7: good players doing it and the way we cooperate with
Speaker 7: them is to do the PPA.
Speaker 3: So we are eager.
Speaker 7: I mean, we have quite a lot of consumption in
Speaker 7: the main markets where we are present, and we want
Speaker 7: the developers to go for the projects and we are
Speaker 7: there to go for the PPA.
Speaker 3: Thank you, Nick finer words.
Speaker 8: I'm going to go down a path you may be
Speaker 8: one expecting. But about four months ago, NATO put out
Speaker 8: a list of twelve critical raw materials crucial for the
Speaker 8: defense sector and for which Europe has a supply risk.
Speaker 8: Aluminium was on that list. It was the material with
Speaker 8: the most different uses across military applications. Steel of course
Speaker 8: absolutely indispensable, and it's also both of these materials as
Speaker 8: well as many others things that we need obviously for
Speaker 8: the green transition as well, so you need it in
Speaker 8: the solar industry, you need it for electricity grids. One
Speaker 8: of my favorite statistics is there's actually more aluminium in
Speaker 8: a lithium im battery than lithium. So it's very clear.
Speaker 8: We've lost fifty percent of our aluminium production in Europe
Speaker 8: over the past few years. It's very clear that we
Speaker 8: need to support our industries. So what I would say,
Speaker 8: the message that I want to leave with you here
Speaker 8: today is let's do this in a forward looking manner
Speaker 8: that helps all of you guys, make sure your investments,
Speaker 8: that reduces the level of solar catailments, that creates a
Speaker 8: business case as well for the storage investments that we
Speaker 8: absolutely need in our system. And if we can get
Speaker 8: all of these things pulling together, then I'm very confident
Speaker 8: and we can get through all of the the challenges
Speaker 8: to a very sunny, Soulo future.
Speaker 3: My personal message to Paula, Paula, always remember the Onion's
Speaker 3: Future Act. In the fifties, two very good lobbyists in
Speaker 3: America decided that the free market was not good enough
Speaker 3: and they should forbid any futures market. Everything should be
Speaker 3: spot and so it was passed bas the Senate because
Speaker 3: they were very good lobbyists, and then they went away
Speaker 3: and it's still on the book. So you can trade garlic,
Speaker 3: you can trade potatoes, but if you trade onions, you
Speaker 3: end up in jail. Because it's the same law as
Speaker 3: for al capone. That tells you that very good lobbying
Speaker 3: would seem smart on the point can lenk to very
Speaker 3: absurd conclusion. Let people do business. So that was my
Speaker 3: last world. What's your last please?
Speaker 4: From my side? My one ki ask would be really
Speaker 4: too in addressing all these challenges that we are mentioning
Speaker 4: to join forces across. I don't think we are that
Speaker 4: far away. We are coming from very similar angles and
Speaker 4: then the same objectives and the same challenges. So bring
Speaker 4: the industry to hold those Parliament Commission member states, and
Speaker 4: then we have some very good examples as to remember
Speaker 4: what we did with the solar chart or with the
Speaker 4: wind child or what is now announced with this strip
Speaker 4: Tite contract with means also this type of joining efforts.
Speaker 4: And then I would add an a half kiosk to
Speaker 4: also use the existing legislation to the maximum. So let's
Speaker 4: already also speed up implementation of what is already there.
Speaker 1: And well, we've seen in the room as well that
Speaker 1: we are all strongly committed to build our own energy
Speaker 1: future in Europe, clean, secure and competitive. And we've all
Speaker 1: seen that the solar could be one of the biggest
Speaker 1: energy advantages of Europe. So let's control it, let's own it,
Speaker 1: let's lead it globally, and let's flex it. The future
Speaker 1: is not just solar, it's solar and storage and AI.
Speaker 3: Thank you, thank you so much, Lise, thank the Panela
Speaker 3: Solar about Europe. Thank you very much.
Speaker 5: Thank you for listening to Redefining Energy. Don't forget to
Speaker 5: read the show and subscribe on Apple, Podcast, Spotify, or
Speaker 5: the platform of your choice.