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Head on over to Freeman Beyond the Wall dot com,
Forward slash Support and do it there. Thank you. I
want to welcome everyone back to the Peking Jana Show
for the first time. Got Cody Justice. Here are you doing, Cody.
Speaker 2: I'm doing well, Pete, thanks for having me on. How
are you doing?
Speaker 1: Doing good? Doing good? First time? You got to tell
everybody as much about yourself as you're willing to.
Speaker 2: Oh, we could be here forever. Yeah, I'll give a
brief intro. So my name is Cody Justice. If you've
seen me online, I'm the founder and the editor of
sacer Press. We're a book publishing company. I'd say that
we publish reformed, right wing and classic books. I use
sort of idiosyncratic definitions for each of those words. You
can find that on the website to find more specifically
about what I mean. We're not like a typical book
publisher where we just publish theology. I intentionally crafted the
project to be broad, and so we publish theology, philosophy,
political theory. I have intentions to publish more than that,
so it's intentionally eclectic and broad, meant to be dynamic
rather than a narrow niche. Our tagline is publishing the
sacred Truth for a new Day, to renew the Christian West.
You can go on the website to find out more
about that. In addition to books, we also publish songs.
These are AI generated and then art prints. Lord Willing
in time to come. But our bread and butter is books.
These are both physical and digital. Mostly these are republications
of books that are in the public domain. Sometimes they're
translated out of either Latin or, in the case of
Caius Robrizius, out of German. Then we also publish newer books.
So we've got several in the pipeline, and one we
just published by my friend Michael Spangler. He's a Presbyterian pastor.
That book is called Christian Race Realism. It's kind of
like an introduction to the topic of race from a
Christian perspective, not just the Bible, but also from nature
and history. It's about two hundred and so pages, concise, clear,
great introduction to the topic. I also do a podcast
with Michael. It's called the Old Paths Podcast. Asked. The
tagline for that is retrieving and applying the historic Reformed Faith.
I promise I'm not one of those annoying, insufferable reform types.
There's some Catholicity in the way that I hold my
theology and such. So we do that podcast. It's been
going on for several years. We've touched on race there
as well. We just finished up a series responding to
a pastor on all sorts of issues related to race
and nations, nationality, immigration, all these sorts of questions. He
did a five part series, and when he began the series,
he had named my friend Michael, and he had implied
me very clearly as well, and so we thought, well,
we'll respond to your series, and we critiqued him and
took it apart. And so if you're a Christian, you know,
that's a great series to go to if you want
to try to understand some of these things and why
Christianity doesn't contradict nature and kind of classical view of
anthe apology and nations and such. And then lastly, Michael
and I just launched a publication project. It's called American Mantle.
So that's a Protestant right wing online journal or magazine
of sorts. So we're about two weeks into that when
we're very excited about it. We've got I don't know,
maybe about a dozen articles at this point, and we're
trying to fill something of a whole that we sense.
There are other publications out there, but they're not always
as candid and as clear, especially in their political stance,
and so that's something that we're trying to lead on.
So that's a little bit about me. All this online
stuff is not my normal work. My normal work is
in the real world, work with my hands. I'd like
to keep that quiet and not say too much about it. Yeah,
I think that's a good introduction for who I am.
Speaker 1: Awesome, awesome, So yeah, let's get down to the topic.
Before we do that, I just want to announce to
everybody who's watching. You should know by now that once
I cover a subject, I pretty much move on from it.
And I if you contact me and say, hey, that
subject you were talking about, I know somebody else who
you should have on to talk about it. If you
do that, I'm either going to ignore you or block
you because I consider it to be rude to my guests.
So yeah, yeah, you guys know me by now. Don't
spurg out, no spergs. If you watch my if you
watch my live stream on the Sunday at Cody, you'll
get it all.
Speaker 2: I've watched off and long since last year. I think
the first time I found you was you were on
Contramundum last year and that's how I found you. And yeah,
I've listened to quite a few of your episodes, and yes,
the ones where you go after the Spurgs and I sympathize.
I respect that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Contra Mundum was a great visit, ended ended up
getting me written up in getting written up in a
newspaper as a filthy anti semi naturally, thanks guys, appreciate that.
But all right, what we're here to talk about you
are looks like you're publishing what's the name of the book,
the author and just jump.
Speaker 2: Yes, so publishing Positive Christianity in the Third Reich, including
the twenty eight Theses of the German Christians and miscellaneous
documents of Caius Fabrisius. Quite a mouthful. The original title
which I intended to publish was simply Positive Christianity in
the Third Reich. And perhaps some of your audience are
familiar with this book and have read it. It's only
about eighty some pages. You could read it in a
few hours, perhaps less so. I first came across that
particular book several years ago, It'd have to be three
or four years ago. Now. I've always been something of
a contrarian, So I got a court order when I
was fifteen to drop out a high school and took
my ged went straight to work. That's kind of an
example of that sort of contrarian streak. There are other
things in my life as well, and part of this
manifested in sort of doing alternative research on different things,
starting with nine to eleven and then moving to other
topics and eventually getting to World War two. And so
I had come across different resources and this was one
of them in the course of that study that I
found online. I found it on archive dot organ. I
read it in a day. I thought, this is an
interesting little book, and the main thesis is something I
have never heard from before. Essentially, the main thesis is
that Christianity, at least the version of Christianity espoused by
Caius Fabrizius, that's probably the best way to say his name,
he believes that it's compatible with national socialism. I'd never
in my life heard anything like that. I mean, recently,
a man was just on Tucker Carlson, and Tucker Carlson
made a passing remark in their discussion saying, well, we
know that none of the Nazis were Christians. Like, that's ridiculous, right,
And here's this guy I'm reading it says no, actually,
we do Christians are part of this movement. So that's
what got me started. I refor batted the book a
little bit, got it ready for publication. I planned to
launch that back in September of last year, a bit
of a symbolic launch for those who are familiar with
some of the history of the Third Reich. Well back then,
with our publishing efforts, I was still linked up primarily
with Amazon Print on Demand. We're just getting started, and
they hemmed and hawed, took me back and forth through
this process, approved book, disapproved it, approved it in Japan,
and disapproved it everywhere else, and I was frustrated. And
after that I found more resources from this author, so
I didn't technically publish the book when I planned to. Sadly,
and as I studied more, I found more and more
of his documents, and essentially, over time, I just said,
I'm going to translate these and I'm going to include
them in the book, and it'll be a brand new book.
It'd be something that actually no one has had possession
of as far as I'm aware. So that's what I've done.
So we've got his original book, which is about eighty
some pages, and then they're about I think eight or
nine other smaller works included by the same man, by
Caius Fabrizius. So these works span i think from about
the year nineteen thirty three all the way to forty six,
after the war had seen least in Europe. And so
the book ends with several of his formal legal documents.
One of them is actually report of his imprisonment. He
was imprisoned by the German authorities for one of the
works that he wrote, which is also included in the book,
And in that work he critiques some things that are
going on, and he says, there are these people that
have infiltrated the German authority structures, and they are turning
national socialism and the whole goal of everything that we
started completely against its initial aims. And so he makes
this critique. Of course, is during wartime, and there's a
little bit of ambiguity about precisely why he was imprisoned,
but the suggestion does seem to be taken into custody. Rather,
the suggestion does seem to be that it bothered Himmler.
He had sent this kind of confidential memorandum to a
number of different colleagues, and some in academia than some
in the German authority structures anyway. That's one of the
three that in the book. Then the other two are
actually affidavits that he gave at Nuremberg. They're quite remarkable
some of the details in there. And the last one,
if I'm not mistaken, is where he gives his reasons
for joining the National Socialist Party. And so he says
that he was an instructor or professor of theology, and
he had students, male theology students who were in the essay,
and he says he was so impressed with their character
made such an impression on him that he was basically
impelled to join. So he doesn't have anything bad to
say about it. And in fact, after everything is over,
he basically says, if there are any attacks on churches
or anything like that, that must be regarded as an
aberration against the fundamental principles of National Socialism and what
we were all about. This is remarkable because this man,
in some sense was he suffered from the German authorities
themselves for critiquing them on what he viewed as Christian grounds.
So the book has a lot of different material in it.
You'll get his basic political theory treatise, where he at
the beginning is trying to share the compatibility between Christianity
and national socialism. He doesn't do any deep exegesis of
the scripture. That may be unsatisfying to some people, but
I would suggest just reading and evaluating judiciously the book
on its own merits. He more deals with kind of
themes and motifs of Christianity in relation to the on
the ground political situation of national socialism. And in addition
to that he has other works so German Christians in
the Struggle for the Gospel, Germany and the religious world situation,
and that when he's kind of taken a broader view
and saying, here's what's going on historically across the world
with all these revolutions movements. Here's what part of the
world believes is going on in Germany. They think it's
this totalitarian nutcase regime. And he says, no, that's actually
not what's going on. And although some of the you know,
some of the actions of the regime may be strong,
you should understand the historical context for that and why
that's occurring. I include the twenty eight theses of the
German Christians, as translated by Corey Mahler with his notes.
Then I also include as an appendix the same thesies
and their explanation by the principal author thereof, namely Walter Grindman.
He was another Protestant theologian. In addition to this, it
has the Jewish Question in the German Evangelical or we
could say Protestant Church. And this is Fabrizius himself not
just dealing with the Jewish question, but also answering some
of the critiques and even condemnations that were raised against
the German Christians, of which Fabritius was a part. Where
this Emergency Pastors League partly in response to this nut
guy named Kraus, they basically wrote a condemnation of the
German Christians and of the twenty eight theses. And what
Fabrizius does in the Jewish Question in the German Evangelical
Church is effectively he's just rebutting all of their objections
and their condemnations, much of which he says are complete
straw man. He says, you have totally misunderstood what we
mean by this and this. Then he's also got the
reich and struggle. If I remember correctly, this one is
where he details some of the initial problems that he saw.
Inner Armor is his attempt to strengthen things that he
sees as waning. And then again I mentioned those other documents,
so that gives you kind of a window into the
book itself. Like I said, I think it spans, if
I'm not mistaken, about nineteen thirty three to nineteen forty six.
Speaker 1: So the main text positive Christianity in the Third Reich
is released in nineteen thirty seven. Is what's the purpose
of him writing it? Is he trying to convince people?
Is he explaining? What's he Why is he doing this?
Speaker 2: Yeah? Well, I think he wants to show that national
socialism and Christianity are not a contradiction, but they are harmonious. Now,
of course certain people are going to go automatically to
the worst possible interpretation, But again I would recommend you
read the book on its own merits. So I'll just
read the first opening paragraph from the forward. He says, quote,
there's much misconception in the world today with respect to
the position of Christianity in the Third Reich, opinion being
rife that an anti christian attitude or paganism is at
the moment predominant in Germany. These were the considerations which
led me to issue an English edition of my book. Now.
He goes on to say, this book is not an
official statement. It's his own individual statement. But he is
representative of National Socialism in a sense and of the
German Christians, because he's a part of both of those organizations.
And so what he's doing is he's sensing there is
a misconception of what's going on in Germany right now,
and I'm writing in part to correct that. In one
of his other works, he mentions effectively the same things
as I said. He I think it's in Germany and
the religious world situation. He says, there's people that think
there's this totalitarian, crazy state. These reports, they're so common,
So this is not what's going on. Actually, what's going
on is that Germany has been renewed and basically rebirthed
and brought back from the brink.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I guess the place to go there is do
we have any idea what the reaction is of that?
Because we do know that there were anti Christian and
pagan influences that seem to have very loud voices. I
think the extent of it from everything that I've been
able to research is very very overblown. But also you
have loud voices that are sort of communicating it. And
not only that is when you have voices as such,
certain Christians of certain ilk are going to who are
against the Third Riker going to look at those voices
and be like, see that's what they're all about, and
just concentrate on that and be sort of a distraction
away from what's going on over here, because I mean
it's insane to say that, you know, it's like, oh,
this was there was no Christians in the Third rek
when there's pictures everywhere of them taking communion in the field,
you know, during the war, or you know, worshiping during
the war. I mean, it's just you basically have to
go into you know, fantasyland, or you know, you become
one of those people who was like, oh, you know
the Soviet Union and Nazi Germany, it's just a fight
the authoritarians fighting over who's going to control the world,
and you just go into straw men or just out
now lies. So how is this How is this received?
I guess is a is a good question.
Speaker 2: How is the book received now or how was it
received when it was published? When it was published that
I can't say for sure other than Fabritius what he
says himself. So in one of his later works he
mentions that a bishop in England received the book well,
in fact thought that having read it, it was good
cause to try to seek good relations with Germany. Of course,
this is before the war had really kicked off. I
read that and thought, wow, I mean, that's quite remarkable,
for Britis does touch on the pagan element. He actually
expressly highlights that in several places. And my sense from
reading him, okay, not from reading all the material out there,
material out there, but from reading Fabrizius himself, is that
that became a particular problem later on, which Fabrizius attributes
in part to them having infiltrated key leadership positions within
national socialism or the German authority structures, and he says
these guys are creating real problems, and in fact he
says they're against the German nation at this point because
most of the Germans are Christian. So you can find
this information even in critics and condemners of the Third Reich.
So right to Patman, he wrote the book Fascism and Action.
He admits in that book that Germany was overwhelmingly Christian,
and he cites Michael Power in part for this. If
I'm not mistaken, he basically says, effectively, you got two
thirds of the country they identify as Protestant, and then
the other third identify as Roman Catholic, and then whoever's
left is a very clear minority, like five percent or less.
Fabritius himself uses the ninety five percent figure in one
of his works. He says, Germany is ninety five percent Christian.
Now they're going off of different reports and statistics there,
so perhaps the number is less. But so you're talking
about a country that at the time was about like
sixty six million, So that's not something small or minor.
This is pretty significant. Now. It's not to suggest that
they're the only country that identified that way. I think
the United States at the time was close to the
same sort of identification, If I'm not mistaken. You'll find
also in other critics and condemners of the Third Reich,
Susannah Heschel. So she's a Jewish academic, liberal lady. I'm
not sure if she's written a book like some of
these others, but you can find some of her papers
online for free and read them and she says that
there was usiastic support for the National Socialists on the
part of Christians and churches. And then she says special
specially for Hitler from Protestants. Everything that I have read
from Fabrizius and then from other German Christians such as
Joaquim Hastenfelder, from Ludwig Muehler, from a man Wilhelm Stoppel
or something like that, they all seem to regard Adolf
Hitler as a Christian. Like. You can do with that
whatever you want. You can say, that's complete beloney. I mean,
I'm not really trying to make a perfect, infallible judgment there.
All I'm really doing is reporting on what these people
said in their own day. And they also all emphasize,
to one degree or another, the German character, or excuse me,
the Christian character of Germany. I mean, historically, that's what it.
As you go back into the nineteenth century, it's clear
there's Christian influence. You've got men like Paul de Lagarde.
You've got the other two adults that a lot of
people don't know about, Adolf Stecker, Adolf on Harnack and others.
And these aren't just like pastors some of these men
are politically involved and shaping the nation in that way.
I'm not suggesting that they were the height of the
heights in terms of theological orthodoxy or precision or depth,
simply saying that they identified as Christians, and the Christian
faith in some way or another was part of their
own persona, publicly and otherwise. And so I think when
you add all that together, to me, it seems like
it's fair to say, in some sense, you know, Germany
was a Christian nation, there were Pagans, and again Fabrizius
notes this. There's interestingly, I got into a discussion with
a guy on X recently who brought this up, and
as we were into it, he he he mentioned the figures.
He said, well, they started off at one percent, and
then after so many years, they were three percent. I thought, okay,
so you got these pagans and they've gained two percent.
All right, what's the rest of the country. What do
they identify as? Again, granted by critics and condemners of
the third right, they identify it as Christian. So I
can't tell you all of what that means other than
I believe certainly there were genuine Christians and without doubt
there were nominal Christians or just kind of cultural Christians
as well, and I think that has to factor into
how we approach the subject. I realize it's hard for
some people because talking about the post war consensus, the
liberal mythos, everything's very charged and such. But I think
that we're seeing a lot of this starting to crumble
in our day, and it's time to show some courage
and some sanity and going back to these primary sources
in dealing honestly with what they say.
Speaker 1: How does he do that exactly? How does he take
the tenants of Protestant Christianity. He's arguing from a Lutheran standpoint, correct.
Speaker 2: As far as I'm aware. Yes, although he wrote for
a journal entitled presbyterian isthmus So I'm quite sure how
to parse through that one.
Speaker 1: Okay, how does he reconcile the tenants of national socialism
with the with the tenants of Christianity? I mean, at
least national socialism hat in ethos? Right?
Speaker 2: It did, Yes, you know, a sort of martial spirit,
rejection of degeneracy, the imposition of order, the big bad authoritarianism. Yeah.
So he talks about liberalism and he says, we reject this.
It's this radical individualism, it's unders social bonds, it takes
actually religion out of the public, and he says we
reject this as Christians and as national socialists. He names
Marxism as well, and he says this is an enemy
of both our German country and also our faith, and
we unite with national socialism in opposing it. It's a
common thread you'll see with these guys as you start
to read them. They name liberalism, Marxism often, then Jewish
materialism or materialism, and then Mammonism, and they kind of
see all of these as going together. And if you've
read some other national socialists like Richard Walter Darry, he
says that liberalism and Marxism are kind of like twins.
They get to the same end, they just approach it
in different ways. I think he's got a point there.
It seems to me that Fabrizius himself saw that and
rejected it. He also talks about, for instance, the harmonious
relationship between humility and heroism, and so in modern Christianity,
which is regardless really of whatever tradition you're in, has
been kind of infiltrated and vitiated from the inside out.
We tend to oppose those two things. We think well,
to be humble is to not be heroic. You don't
go out there and dare and be bold and try
to take ground. You kind of recede. If you're a Protestant,
you might be aware of Timothy Keller and his kind
of public PERSONA guy's a complete joke. He basically considered
like being a faithful Christian in the public. Miant. You
got there and you pull your pants down, you spank
your own button in front of everybody, and yeah, you're great.
Fabricius completely rejects this. What he sees is that there's
a relationship harmonious between humility and heroism, that they go together,
and so he's trying to synthesize instead of dichotomize, which
is what we see so often today. You know, these
people they abuse Christian doctrines, sentiment, virtue all the time
for whether it's it's liberal ins or egalitarian ins, whatever
the case may be. You know, for example, people bring
up the Galatians three twenty eight all the time. There's
neither Jue nor Greek, you know, male nor female. They
just got all these wild places. Basically egalitarianism it seems
to me the Fabrezius basically rejects this, and he's behind
ad Alf Hitler one hundred percent. And in his opinion,
Adolf Hitler is basically sent of God to renew the
German nation. And you understand the historical context, everything happened
in World War One, then afterward, and then Treaty of
Versailles and the rape and then Weimar, you can understand
this like you can sympathize these people wanted their their
nation back. And you know, some of these German Christians
talk about their best men in World War One were Christians,
you know, and that they fought bravely. So you read
this again and Joachim Hasenfelder, another prominent German Christian.
Speaker 1: Yeah, the Marxism and liberalism I read I've read on
my show Razard lagut Go's demon in Democracy, and he
does a really good job in a short period of
time of just basically showing how they're The open endedness
of it, the fact that there's no they don't really
have a foundation in anything solid, in anything historic, just
basically lends themselves to being so much alike that liberalism
will eventually lead to the other because it's just the
only way, the only way liberalism is going to be
able to survive and protect itself is by becoming a
authoritarian form of itself. And that's what That's what Marxism is,
that's what communism is. And yeah, I mean I think
it's pretty obvious when you when you look at what
the what the radicals and the revolutionaries in Russia were
calling for from the eighteen nineties to to nineteen ten.
I mean, a lot of them were calling themselves liberals,
and a lot of them were seeking to to unleash
the bonds of the uh of the czar so that
they could have more freedom and they could do as
they wish. And we saw exactly what that what that
led to. So yeah, people who don't people just don't
realize that because most people in what is we see
they'll try to call the West and especially in the
United States, is they're liberals. I mean, you know that
your average MAGA voter, even though even if they will
deny it one hundred percent, they're liberals.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I agree with that. I mean I've heard men
also suggests that woke was kind of a natural development
in some sense out of liberalism. I think perhaps they've
they've got a point. I mean, I see liberalism in
a similar way that Fabritius talks about it. It's this
radical individualism, so it doesn't really have a conception of
like collective solidarity. And I mean that's part of what
national socialism was all about. And we can have that today,
just so long as it's you know, anti white.
Speaker 1: Right, yeah, I mean you can have you can have
any ethnic enclave if you want, as long as it's
the right skin color m and that skin color is
definitely not anybody from the European continent, right, Yeah.
Speaker 2: You can have ethno nationalism for everybody, everybody accept this
one unique particular group. Interesting how that works.
Speaker 1: I wanted to see if we can move on to
the twenty eight thesis here, because that's probably an It's
very interesting to me because just check my notes here,
check my notes here. The reason I think you assume
that he's a Lutheran is because basically the twenty eight
theses seem to almost root themselves in luther So you
can we talk a little bit about the twenty eight
thesis and you know what the I mean, when people
come up with a list like this, or they come
up with a confessional or they come up with a catechism.
There's a purpose behind it. There was a you're seeking
to say this is what we believe, and you're not
and do not go outside, go outside of these boundaries
or else you're outside of the you're outside of the church.
Say so, what's what's the purpose of the of these
twenty eight thesis?
Speaker 2: Yeah, the twenty eight theses are not meant to be
a universal, timeless confession of faith. If you read Fabrizius
and other German Christians in their own words, that is
clear as day. In fact, this is something that Fabricius
takes that Pastors Emergency League to task on is he says,
my brothers, he calls them brothers. He says, you've basically
treated our theses as if it's meant to be a
comprehensive confession of faith, where it is meant to supplant
standard orthodox, historic confessions of faith. And he says that
is not what this is not at all. He basically says,
this is a particular document which we are crafting in
relation to our present moment, so its particularity is not universalism.
They're not necessarily going to the Bible and deducing therefrom
all of the doctrines that every Christian in every place,
at all times need to believe. No, they're dealing with
their particular situation. They're in twentieth century Germany, So it
touches on things like the church and the state. It
touches on the proclamation of the Church, the foundations of
the Church, the path of the Church. So in the book,
the total volume, I've got krey Mahler's translation in his notes.
We've also got for answer to the Pastor's League, and
then Grunman himself who authored them. So you can read
the three and get a sense of what they're all about.
But basically they're dealing with how are we supposed to
conceive of the church in relation to all of these
things that have now been raised and forced upon us,
whether we're talking about our present political situation or we're
talking about the question of race, how does that interface
with these things? So they discuss, if I'm not mistaken
the Aryan paragraph, they discuss, for instance, what they conceive
of in terms of a Christian in their race. So
I'll just read an excerpt here from the Church in
the State. Section says a people church does not mean
excluding Christians of other races. Excuse me, got a bit
of a cult does not mean excluding Christians of other
races from word and sacrament or from the Great Christian
community of faith. A Christian of another race is not
a lesser Christian, but rather a Christian of a different kind. Thus,
the People's Church takes seriously that the Christian Church does
not yet live in the perfection of divine eternity, but
is bound by the orders God has given to this life.
So the orders, I think the German is Ordnung, so
it's an interesting German word. So they would consider there
are distinct orders of life, such as the family and
then the nation. So what they're saying is that the
nation or the race in this instance is a distinct
order of life given by God in his wisdom, in
his providence. We need to recognize that. But you don't
see some sort of harsh racial supremacy theory here. In fact,
they head that often they say Christian of another race
is not a lesser Christian, rather a Christian of a
different kind. So they're just recognizing there are differences. So Christians,
for instance, in Japan or in China, they're not necessarily
like you and I to the extent that there are
Christians in Africa, they're not necessarily like you or I.
Even you know black people here in America that are Christians.
Often they've got their own distinct churches. And I think
that that's natural, that's fine, that's just a modern sort
of analog. And Fabritius is you know, speaking to similar
dynamic as they're facing it in all the particularities there
in Germany at the time. So it also talks about,
for instance, the Old Testament. So this is part three
of the Foundations of the Church. It says the Old
Testament does not have the same value as the New Testament.
The specifically Jewish national morality and national religion have been superseded.
The Old Testament remains important because it records the history
and decline of a people that repeatedly separated itself from
God despite his revelation. The prophets of God show us
all the position of a nation relative to God is
decisive for its fate in history. It makes further communes
comments about the apostasy of the Jews and than the
culmination of their sin in the Crucifixion of Christ. He's
not saying throw out the Old Testament. Now, this is
a common slander that I've found that people will make
against the German Christians and the twenty eighth THESS. It's
not Marcian, it's not affirming that heresy. And if you
read again Fabrisius and his totality, you will see that.
I mean my read, and I've got a solid grasp
on Theolgio, spent quite a bit of time studying it
over the years. My read is that what they're saying
with the Old Testament here is very close to, if
not the same as, what can be found enshrined in
basically the premiere Protestant confession of faith, the Westminster Confession
of Faith, when it speaks of the body politic of
the Jews, and the ceremonial law basically says that that
has been abrogated or annulled. It's been canceled. And so
with the coming of Christ, his incarnation, his death, his resurrection, ascension,
you had the putting away of the ceremonial law because
it was a shadow or a picture that was pointing
forward to Christ to come in time and in history
to perform the work of redemption. And so in that sense,
all of the peculiarities of the Old Testament religion and
the Covenant thereof have faded because they were only for
a particular time until the Messiah came. And it seems
to me that they're saying again the German Christians are
saying something very similar, if not the same, as that,
noting the Jewish particularity in saying this no longer abides
for us as Christians. So for instance, we don't follow
the dietary laws, we don't follow the feast day schedule
and all of that. In fact, it's not, you know,
it's considered heterodox to try to enforce that on Christians.
Now we have libert the Church has entered into its
age of maturity. So those are just a few examples.
There's more than that. They talk about Christ and his
Jewish identity. I don't again, since that they ever deny
that Christ was Jewish in any way, But what I
sense is that they reject the framing of some of
their opponents in the way that those opponents use the
Jewishness of Christ against the German Christians, probably to oppose
the German Christians in their stance against anti their anti
Judaism stance and their stance against Jewish materialism, not unlike today.
I mean really I've seen the same thing. People You
start erasing a critique about this group, and lo holog
you get Christians trot out and say, oh, you know,
Jesus was Jewish, as if anyone is denying that that
somehow means we can't make critiques.
Speaker 1: Or the Pagans are calling you a christ cook.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you got to deal with those guys too.
Speaker 1: Yeah, they're so funny. It's like, okay, so you're you're
a Pagan, why are you against Zionism?
Speaker 2: Yeah? And also like you want you do you want
to like reclaim the West? Okay, come on, and you
want to throw out Christianity.
Speaker 1: Right because yeah? Yeah, because yeah, because pagan hasn't built
the West. That's great. Yeah. So let me go over
a couple here. So like these is twenty twenty two
to twenty four, the Cross and resurrection are central with
Christ overcoming guilt, fate, and death. It's sort of parallels
to social the sacrificial ethos of national socialism. When it
says overcoming guilt, here's something that you can get. You
can say, oh, okay, you know, sure, I'll even accept
that these were Christians. That you know, people who are
fighting in the Varimac, who were in the SS they
are Christians, but they are obviously Antinomians. So you know,
why should we we should judge it. We can judge
that they're not Christians because they're obviously Antinomians. They don't
believe in the law. Look at everything that they did.
Speaker 2: So you're asking what would my response to that be? Yeah, yeah,
I would say prove it. Where's the where's the evidence
for that claim? In what way were they were they Antinomian?
Are we saying that because they're in the war they
were Antiinomian? I mean that that doesn't make much sense
to me. It can be a perfectly good work, and
even a work of faith to go to war. I mean,
Hebrews eleven talks about this, that by faith some saints
conquered kingdom and put armies to flight. One of my
favorite reformers, Swiss reformer Henry Bollinger, talks about this and
he actually indicts people whoever would try to abuse faith
and spirituality against natural things like loving your own, your
kin and countrymen, and defending your country when under threat.
He says, you know, as people are dainty fools and
effeminate hearts. So if they mean they went to war,
their Antiinomian saying no, that's not Antiinomian, I mean antinomian
is in my mind, it's you're against the law, that's
what that's the etymology of that word anti nomos. That
means you don't obey the moral law, you don't obey God,
you don't keep the Ten Commandments. Of course, we don't
believe anyone can keep them perfectly even after you're saved,
But we do believe once you're saved, you've been given
a special power by the Holy Spirit. At least I'll
speak for myself, it's what I believe as a Protestant,
that you've given the Holy Spirit to to obey the
Lord and to keep his law. Even then you're not
going to do it perfectly. So I would have to
know what they what they mean by that. I mean, yeah,
it sounds like a weird objection to me.
Speaker 1: Well, when you listen to Christians today, and I don't
care if they're Protestant or Catholic like myself, the arguments
make no sense whatsoever, you know as a as a Catholic,
and more of a medievalist. I mean, I understand why
you go to war. It's I'm never I'm never going
to apologize for the Crusades. I'm never going to apologize
for the Inquisition. These were things that had to be done,
and they were done and they made these are these
are things that helped to make the West. So oh yeah, yeah,
I'm not I'm not apologizing for them.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm right there with you. I'm a I'm not
a I'm not an Evangelical, I'm a classic Protestant, magisterial Protestant.
We actually have a lot in common in terms of
civilizational emphasis when you look at the history of that.
Have you ever read Raymond Ibraheim Defenders of the West,
Sword and Scimitar the Crusas.
Speaker 1: No, but I've heard him interviewed, and I definitely want to.
I need, I need to get to that book.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I like, I like. I've read that Defenders
of the West, So I'm with you on that. He
makes a great case. He says that these were defensive wars,
these the Crusades, and that you know, radical Muslim incursions
and the wickedness of these Muslims. He says, that's what
the Crusades largely were a response to that.
Speaker 1: How would you answer the question? How do you think
it goes? Along with the twenty eighth thesis and the
book Positive Christianity about like just like the Nuremberg Laws
and the what seems like blatant anti semitism in Jewish
in German policy and in in German practice. I mean,
I know how to answer these things. I'm asking you
these questions because these are the kind of questions that
people will, you know, people want to ask you.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so you're saying, how would they how would the
the Christians, the German Christians of the time justify their
anti Semitic or anti Judaic stance.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you know, and like saying, oh, well, Jews
can't even you know, according to how much what percentage
you are of a Jew, you can't even be a citizen,
much less teach university things like that.
Speaker 2: Well, on that latter point, I would say, if you
go look at his law as in America, fine, similar
kind of laws anti miscegenation laws, for instance, immigration restriction laws.
Some people don't know this. Virginia had a law on
the books, but they're nineteen oh six where they said
as regarding immigration upon Anglo Saxon supremacy, their words, depends
the health of our commonwealth. You look at North Carolina
at the same time they're talking about Anglo Saxon's Celtics Teutonics.
So they were race conscious, if you wil or ethnicity conscious,
however you want to term this, and that informed not
only their political identity of states, but therefrom the restrictions
that they placed on who could and could not come
into their states and have citizenship. I mean, this is
kind of standard political theory once you get out of
the madness of kind of the post World War two
establishment and the civil rights regime revolution that's been foisted
upon us, all this nonsense. As far as the German
Christians and anti Semitism go, I mean, they would justified
on all sorts of grounds, and they would say that
these people are alien to us, and look at their spirit,
look at the productions that they make, whether in art
or in media or in academia, and they would say,
this is alien to us. It's foreign to us, and
we want solidarity, we want a strong national collective identity.
And part of procuring that for ourselves means we need
to deal with these people who are in here that
includes some of these laws. Now you can say while
they were used to justify this and that and all
these other other evil things. Fine, but you need to
distinguish between the principle and then the application thereof. Just
because an application maybe went awry here or there in
your estimation doesn't mean the principle itself is fundamentally mistaken.
They would also root it in their broader historic identity,
as many of them did. Whether Christians are not going
back to Martin Luther and his Treatise on the Jews
and their Lives among other things that he said that Luther,
he's not really an outlier when you start digging historically
into these things in the Western and the Christian tradition,
there's actually a very robust, if we could so speak,
anti Judaic strain in Christianity and in the Western tradition
among different even different denominations or different traditions, whether you're
talking about Roman, Catholic or Protestant. Even in the nineteenth century,
you had ongoing discussions about the Jewish question, even from
Jews themselves. So Lord Willing, with sac repress, we're going
to republish two books together well, really three books. So
two of those books are by Carl Friedrich Khman, nineteenth
century German Jewish Protestant, and he wrote on the Jewish question.
And in his first book he says, as a Jew
on this topic that many times throughout history, actually the
Jews have brought the repercussions upon themselves because of the
ways that they act, how hostile they are when they
get into these distinct national communities. And he's just honest
about it. He's also in way sympathetic with them. And
then in his second book, this is some years later,
especially as Zionism has begun to take off, he's much
more sympathetic to them and has very high hopes for
what they're going to be able to do. And he
thinks that the only way to solve the Jewish question
is for Jews to solve it themselves, and of course
to take Palestine and all this. And you know, historically
you can study that and figure out how that went.
I don't think it went very well. Then the other
book is by Gerhard Kitel. He was he came later
in twentieth century. He was actually a national socialist himself,
and he deals with the question. It's quite kind of clinical. Really,
some people have misread him because he raises as just
a hypothetical possibility the one way to deal with his
is extermination. But he doesn't at all entertain it as
a viable or a moral possibility whatsoever. You can read
that that will be what Willing published before the end
of the year by Sacer Press. But I raised just
to say that you had this discussion going on. I
raised earlier Paul de Lagarde and the two adults. This
was the discussion they were having in the nineteenth century,
such that the term anti Semitism didn't come with all
the baggage that it now has to us, you know,
over century and a half later. For them, this was
just a pressing political question that they were debating and
trying to understand. And you understand the wider historical context
as well. You have all the nationalists fervor going on
in different places, and then you know, kind of simultaneous
to that a little bit, you've got the development of Zionism,
and so what does this do? This inevitably creates these problems,
and when you know, the Germans are over here and
they're crafting and accumulating a distinct German identity, and then
you've got Jews who themselves are not really falling in
line with that and are kind of opposing it in
different ways. That's naturally sociologically speaking and politically speaking, it's
just going to create some sort of clash and they're
they're going to have to deal with it. It's just
what you do is natural. So that's how i'd answer
that question about how they did it. I mean there
was also theological justification and other things, but I mean
it was a discussion, it being going on for decades. Really,
some people think national socialism at all Hitler just ex
Nihilo appeared. Now they're really the culmination from what I've
read thus far of decades of this sort of thing.
Speaker 1: Yeah, the we were reading today in two hundred Years
Together by the Sulcianese, and it was talking about how
during one of the one of the quote unquote programs
or which are when you start studying the history of that,
you just you can't believe just how they've been the
lies that have come out of that. How in one
of them, the people actually knew where the car rights
lived and left them and like didn't destroy their didn't
break windows in their houses, didn't destroy their businesses. They
were actually able to distinguish between you know what we
would say are the Talmudist Jews and the car too
completely rejected that and normally we were persecuted by the
Thomnists openly. So yeah, the whole idea that the that
this wasn't a discussion. And then you can just go
to newspapers, in newspapers all around the world in the
nineteen twenties and the JQ is openly discussed being written about.
Books are being written about it. Jews are writing books
about it. I mean, Maurice Samuel's You Gentiles is I
mean the one of the best treaties on it. And
people are like, oh, well, who was he? And it's
like then you go back in your research, it's like
that was one of the biggest books in the Jewish
community around the you know, especially in the West at
the time, and so you know this whole oh anti,
it's just anti Semitism, and you have people like Pinsker writing,
oh well, I mean, there's no way we can deal
with this other than extermination because it's hereditary. So we
have to do something about these people. Because because it's hereditary.
Over the centuries and it's just like, all right, well,
I mean I don't know if he went so far
as to say extermination, but I mean, if it's hereditary
and it's incurable, are what is the other answer? Then?
You know? So yeah, just the fact that it's one
of those things where basically this happened one hundred years ago.
We're talking about one hundred years ago, and people are
living in a world and a society and something that
isn't even the West anymore, that has completely been brainwashed
and brainwashed probably the best term, but been so indoctrinated
that this is the unpardonable sin, that anti Semitism is
the un part sin. They have to project that backwards
to everyone in history who's ever had the question or
asked the question, and make that be that these people
were they they broke the unpardonable sin. So there's no
way they could have been Christians. There's no way they
there's no none of them are in heaven. It's it's
it's the same thing. I apologize. It's the same thing.
A lot of Protestants, a lot of Protestants would have
you believe no one went to heaven in the first
fifteen hundred years of the church, the way a lot
of them talk.
Speaker 2: I don't say that.
Speaker 1: I figured you didn't, but yeah, yeah, but the but
but that's basically what it is. Is you're looking back
and you're judging people upon the value, and then you'll
be like oh, and then people will be like, oh, well,
you know, two hundred years ago slavery was you know,
was accepted, and it's like slavery, slavery has been accepted
for ninety nine point nine percent of humanity.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and if you read the Bible, it's actually God
never commands anything against it, He never forbids it, he
regulates it, and in some instances there's a form of
slavery that is intended as a form of mercy for
certain poor individuals.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean there's one book that's basically saying telling
a slave to go back to his master.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Phi Lehman, you're right.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, he's like, okay, well what do we what
do we do with this? So then I guess they
have to dismiss christian That's one way to dismiss Christianity
as just being completely immoral, because that's not even the
Old Testament, that's the New Testament. Cody.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I would say, you know, that's because they've swallowed
the new modern religion. It's it's what do you call it,
you know, liberalism, egalitarianism. It's just this ugly, unnatural view
of man and of the world and the flattening of everything.
It's not just a boy could be a girl, a
girl could be a boy. It's that nobody can be great,
and everything is bad, and everybody who is great needs
to be torn down, you know, tear down Robert E.
Lee statute and all this thing. It's a it's a
revolutionary spirit and it's from Satan.
Speaker 1: So let's finish up with this. I don't want to
keep you very long, and we'll keep it open for
you to come back in the future because I know
you're it's it's nice for you to be able to
do this, considering you sound like, hell, oh.
Speaker 2: I'm happy to be here. I feel okay, I just
sound weird. I've got this condestion.
Speaker 1: But so if if ninety five percent of Germany is
a Christian and Adolf Hitler is the I mean, Thomas
seven seven says this all the time. The German people
weren't really that in love with the national socialists, but
they loved Adolf Hitler. So if all of these Christians,
you know, looking back through the lens of our day,
if all of these Christians ninety five percent of the
country loved Adolf Hitler, I mean, what should that tell us?
How should we interpret that? How should how should we
look at that historically?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean that's really the question of the day,
is it not? Because I mean, Adolf Hitler, in many
people's minds, is worse than Satan, really is. If they're
ever going to try to make some kind of moral
evaluation about a person and they're trying to find the
most extreme version of something that's evil, they will cite
Adolf Hitler. They've likened Trump to Adolf Hitler in part,
I think, to try to get him assassinated. And then,
of course, what's the justification for so many wars? Oh,
you know, this person's the new Hitler. Putin's the new Hitler.
It's fascism, it's the Nazis again and again. So one
of the things that needs to tell us is that
history can take on a mythological status where it has
a moral mythological weight, such that you can invoke persons
or terms such as Nazi and they're like heresies, and
if you brand them upon someone, it's meant to say
they're beyond redemption. So, for instance, when it came out
that I was publishing this book, there's some Christians who
made a big stir about it on x and one
of these guys said, oh, you're a pro you're pro Hitler.
Cody is a pro Hitler, pro third Reich publisher and
all this. And there was one man who published a
screenshot of the book. Another man in forty seven minutes says,
you can find the deeply heretical text here. He linked
it to archive dot org. I have pressed this man
for ten plus months now substantiate that charge, substantiate that
it's heresy. I dare you show one thing from the book?
You found the book. You're resourceful, but you can't even
substantiate this charge. He's refused. And that's a case example
of what's going on. People's minds have been captured such
that they think it is the height of moral virtue
to condemn Alf Hitler and the Nazis. But we don't
do this with any other historical people. Weren't going back
to the Civil War or the war between the states,
if you prefer and summoning it in this way. Sometimes yeah,
they go back there, but it does not at all
approach the level of intensity that World War two does.
They're not going back to Napoleon. They're not going back
to Titus when he slew over a million Jews. And
I believe that was actually the judgment, the incarnate judgment
of the Lord Jesus Christ upon the Jews the events
leading up to eighty seventy for their extreme wickedness and
degeneracy and the rejection of the Gospel after he'd been
patient with him for centuries. You look at it that way,
he say, Actually, God has probably killed war Jews, anybody
else in history Babylonians, the Assyrians, the Romans, and then
other temporal judgments that have taken place. So our whole
religious and moral imagination has been refactored in the West,
so that this is a load bearing myth, as Darryl
Cooper says, and in my opinion, it has to come
crashing down. I think in part it already kind of
is in made different ways. There are people with platforms
such as yourself and even others, who are talking about
all these sorts of things. You know, these zoomers that
are watching Adolf Hitler speeches in English on TikTok or whatever.
There's no stopping this. I think it was Sam Francis
himself back in the nineties when asked, you know, how
do we advance out of this problem that we're in,
he says he thinks, basically, the internet is going to
be the only way that we're going to do it.
I think he's apprecient. Apprecient, He's right, and that's part
of why I'm publishing the book. So in terms of
the evaluation of people what they claim about Hitler, Look,
you got liberals who are saying this, Okay, it's not
the guy who shaved his head and is out there
with hooked cross or as people call it, a swastika,
you know, screaming in a megaphone. Who is saying Adolf
Hitler is a Christian. I mean, there may be guys
out there like that. I don't know. I'm talking about
Jewish academic liberals like Susannah Heschel are saying these things,
and they're seeing these things. Having gone back to primary sources.
These two books here a Church Undone by Mary Solberg.
It's got a bunch of the documents from the German
Christians that she's compiled, and then this book The Holy
Reich by Richard Steigmann Gaul. I think Richard is Jewish.
I'm not sure if Mary is or not, although Berg
it makes you think probably so. Anyway, you read what
they say, they're saying there's definitely a Christian element to this.
And then you read these German Christians in their own
words again and again. They all seem to highly esteem,
love and honor at alf Hiller. And from what I've read,
they all regarded him as some sort of a Christian.
And I've read his speeches. It's clear he says it
all the time. He mentions God, Lord, God, Providence, Almighty God.
He says christis his Lord and Savior. I understand there
are disputes about other things that he said. Okay, granted, fine,
but I look at that and think it's hard for
me to just say that means nothing at the very least.
I think you have to grant from the actual sources
that Hitler at least said in ways he was a
Christian and said it enough and performed deeds such that
other Christians thought he was a Christian. You don't have
to accept that. You don't have to like that whatever.
I don't really care what you personally do with it,
other than you just say that's true. That's what the
sources actually say. If you can at least start there,
I think that's a great place to start. And we
don't start lighting our hair on fire and going crazy
and saying neo Nazi, you know, all this nonsense. Let's
just look and see what it said. Why can't we
just be do justous about this? Why do we have
to treat this as a touchstone for whether a person
should live or die. It's it's insanely we can't keep
living like this. It's time to move on. That's how
i'd respond, Yeah, you're in. This is just the subject.
Speaker 1: And I think Jerald Cooper making his comment about Churchill
on on Tucker's Show should be all the evidence anyone
needs to know. Is that this is a religion. Is
it's it's it sought to replace Christianity in the West.
And if you you know, there are there will there
are people who will tell you if you do not
denounce you know, Adolf Hitler and and and the third Reich,
and you can't be a Christian So it's actually it's
actually part of it's become part of the confessional of
a lot of Western Christians quote unquote Western.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like a profession of faith condemned, denounced the
Nazis and Adolf Hitler, and make sure you affirm this
other thing that we always have to keep bringing up.
That's that's what it is. It's it's insanity. It's again,
it's captured our moral imagination. So I wrote a little
bit about this, I'll say this last thing on the
Sacri Press blog when I got a lot of blowback
when people saw I was publishing the book. The article
is called why publish Positive Christianity? In the Third Reich
Part one five parameters, and I give five reasons for
why I published it historical political, narratival, which is kind
of like the adjective form of narrative moral, and then
the other one is failing me now. And in the
narratival section I talk about this, I say that this
whole thing is I call it a mythos. It is
like the salvation and judgment of the West, just like
how the Israelites looked back to the Exodus constantly as
this constitutive crisis and emancipation from which they just derived
all their meaning as a people, and then also all
sorts of moral imperatives. And then throughout their history they'd constantly,
you know, kind of resummon this or reconjure this. You
see this in the Psalms repeatedly. They're hearkening back to
the Exodus. It's a similar thing with World War Two.
For us in the West, it's like, that's our justification
for being. And you start digging into some of these
primary sources. From my perspective, you to say, I'm not
sure if this should be You look at some of
these people. They thought people that joined the German that
the Wehrmacht, even those outside of Germany, you know, like
the V and V what's his name, stef de Clerk
or whatever. These people regarded themselves first they're as Christians,
and second as defending Christendom. That's what some of them
literally regarded themselves as doing, especially with the threat of
Bolshevism and the Soviets and such. Again, I'm not saying
you have to now adopt that as your new religion.
I'm not saying that. I'm just saying that's that's the history.
When were we told this? I was never told these things,
but even close. I was never told Germany was nine
Christian or at least identified that way, or that they
were Protestants enthusiastically supportive of Adolf Hitler. Never told any
of this, And I think these things have to be published.
This it's got to get out there. You're gotta get
the truth out there to dispel the lies and even
the mythos itself. What do you do after that? It's
a separate question because you still need some sort of
religious glue that holds you together. Obviously, as a Christian,
I think that has to be christ and Christianity. I'm
not sure what that would look like anew though, in
replacing this false religion.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think the first thing we have to do
is just destroy that myth. And that's pretty much what
I've been working on. And believe it or not, there
are people out there who people would not believe also
realize that, and they realize that the myth of World
War two is even if they don't like the Third
Reich or thing that Germany that you know, Germany should
have won the war or anything like that, they understand
that the myth behind it needs to be destroyed if
we're going to go forward as a country. I mean,
it's basically how this hostage and occupied us since the war,
exactly right, that occupation. Yeah, occupation has to be broken
if that. Until that occupation is broken, we can't even
begin to discuss what the future looks like. We can
make plans, but we can, but really what it's going
to I guess the question would be what it's going
to look like after that, but that's a that's for
a whole other project I do.
Speaker 2: So, yeah, that is the question. I agree with you
one hundred percent. It's I called a straight jacket, and
we have to break out of it, and that means
breaking the myth. However you do that, you know you
can invert it. Some people seem to think that's a
good idea. I'm not necessarily going to starkly oppose them.
Other people think you can ignore it. I think that's naive.
There's no way. I don't think you can really ignore it.
And then other people think maybe you could replace it.
But I'm not sure I going to replace it without
first getting it out of the way somehow.
Speaker 1: So, yeah, it has people have to be willing to
move it aside in order to replace it with something else.
So remind everybody where they can find the book and
the rest of your work.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you can find the book at sacrapress dot com,
s A c r A press dot com. It's available
for pre order right now. If you pre order, you
will get a free PDF copy at release in addition
to your physical paperback copy as well. If you pre order,
you will be automatically entered into a book giveaway. So
we've got four books to give away. Three copies of
in his own Words, The Essential Speeches of Adolf Hitler
by our friends at Antelope Hill, and then we've got
one copy it's two volumes of Mike compf by Clemens
and Blair, the new translation by Timothy Dalton in hardback
to give away. We're thankful that both of these publishers
partnered with us in that way. There are other books
available as well, and for your audience, we have a
special discount code. It's pete Q p E t e
Q all caps. Use that code at checkout for at discount.
I just want to say thanks Pete for having me on.
Big fan of your show, been listening since last year
plan to keep on listening, probably top three podcasts for me.
I recommend it to my friends all the time. It's
been an honor.
Speaker 1: I appreciate it. Cody, thank you very much, and I'll
make sure to link to all of that and especially
the code.
Speaker 2: Thank you.
Speaker 1: Have a good night, take care you too. S