Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to the show on Martin willis your host,
and we have Bill Chuck. I'm really excited to talk
to him again. Iconic Australian researcher Charles Lear has been
writing about him for years in the blogs. Now I'll
tell you this was something I'm talked into. It's a
little different. There are two streams going on right now
on YouTube. One of them has live chat, one of
them doesn't. One of them is vertical and it's for
your phone, for your iPhone or any type of phone
like that. So I was talked into trying this. We'll
see how it goes. I want to hear feedback from
you as a listener, if you can comment on the
show itself, tell me what you think of it. If
it's confusing, I may not do it. I'm just trying
this Synx experiment and Bill Chalker is my guinea pig
on this tonight, and without choice. Sorry Bill, but we're
just going to try this out and see how it works.
I would love to hear your feedback on it. Supposedly
it's supposed to be something good. But anyway, we'll see
how it goes. Let's see the blog for this week
is part two, the rise and fall of interest in
the British crop circle mystery, you know, starting back in
the nineteen eighties, and as you know, a lot of
them were hoaxes, but there are still a lot of
unexplained crop circles. It's a fascinating topic all on its own.
So I want to thank you all in chat. I
see the usual suspects as they say, Dirk, also Christopher,
and it looks like a couple of new ones in there.
Thank you for being here tonight, and so we are
ready to bring in our guests.
Speaker 2: I'm glad to have him back now. I got to explain.
Speaker 1: Last time Bill was on there was a I think
he said fifty thousand houses were out of power blackout,
and I guess something happened again yesterday. But anyway, he's
here now and we have him in his home studio.
Speaker 2: Bill, welcome to the.
Speaker 3: Show, Welcome back, Good to be here.
Speaker 2: Yes, so what's going on? Here we go? Here we go.
Speaker 1: So yeah, we're just trying to work this out. So Bill,
if you would you know from the last time you
were here, I know there was a lot of interest
in the show. We had a lot of downloads in it.
And again the audio. We had the kooka bars out
there making noise and everything.
Speaker 2: That was pretty wild.
Speaker 1: But yeah, so I know I asked you last time,
but can you if just for the person seeing you
for the first time, you've been at this a long time.
When did you first start your very first UFO investigation?
Hang on, Bill, try that again.
Speaker 3: Hang on to a second.
Speaker 1: All right, we're having a little trouble here. Try that again, Bill,
When did your first start?
Speaker 3: Yeah? I started my UFO interest pretty much around about
nineteen sixty six, but only got actively involved by sixty
nine seventy, and by then I was starting to do
a lot of active research, field investigations, that kind of thing.
Speaker 1: Ah, And you know, I mean you've talked about this before.
I think that there was sort of a lot of
stigma involved in the UFOs in Australia.
Speaker 2: So how did that work with your everyday life?
Speaker 1: Well?
Speaker 3: I didn't infect my everyday life, but I agree the
stigma wasn't just unique to Australia. The stigma was worldwide
and that was reflected a lot, particularly courtesy of the
Content Committee report that came out in nineteen sixty nine,
and from that point of view, it kind of was
an expression of that stigma with sort of mainstream science
in the form of Edward Condon describing the whole UFO
subject is worthless and of no scientific merit. But here,
as I a budding high school student in nineteen sixty nine,
routing the Conduct Committee report, I read it several times
over a few months, and to me it confirmed that
there was a real problem and the real phenomenon, and
from that point of view started to investigate what was
going on here in Australia in particular.
Speaker 1: Great and there are some great cases, But you were
sort of drawn to the pre nineteen forty seven Is
that right?
Speaker 3: I guess that's the pre nineteen forty seven sightings were
one area of interest. But what really drew me in
was the science focus, or the suggestion that there was
a real physical phenomenon going on, and that My first
sort of focus was simply to examine whether there was
a UFO reality, and then the next sort of priority
was to establish whether that was alien or not, or
some sort of prosaic kind of explanation. And through all
that I got exposed to a broad cross section of
the UFO froment in Australia but the pre nineteen forty
seven stuff was an area of interest to me as well,
simply because if there were cases that were the same
as what we're experiencing at that time, back in the
twentieth century, then that sort of suggested that we've got
a real enduring phenomenon there outside of the typical kind
of military intelligence mel who It didn't exist back in
those early days, and so that's why I had the
interest in historical cases.
Speaker 2: Now, when you said.
Speaker 1: That you were you had an interest back in high school,
did you have like fellow high school buddies or anything
that you talked to this about or was this something
you were.
Speaker 2: Just doing on your own.
Speaker 3: Well, there there was interest from the point of view
of other friends and students, and so that was an
ongoing thing. And in fact, I had a number of
my student friends helping me out in some of the
early investigations. And back in nineteen sixty nine, for example,
you know, I was sort of involved in doing field investigations,
and I had various friends, local friends that were assisting
me in doing those field investigations. And my father at
the time knew the local member of parliament in our
state government, and it was on his property. The parliamentarian
mister Iarnan Robinson a property at a place called bunger
Walden that had a quite striking physical trace site where
there was a sacling crop or sugarcane crop that was
affected or flattened out, and flood mitigation workers were kind
of examining the site for blood mitigation work. But there
was a top shaped objects flying through the night sky
and landing in that sacle and crop. So there was
a direct education with a UFO event.
Speaker 1: And would you say when you say that there was
a trace evidence, what type of trace evidence is.
Speaker 2: That what you just said?
Speaker 3: Yeah, there was a large amount of flattened sugar cane
crop flattened out into a circular area of that and
that caused quite a sensation. It was widely reported across Australia.
In fact, I've seen reporting on that case overseas as well,
so I did get a lot of press coverage. It
was quite a media sensation in its time, you know,
like in some respects when the Economic Committee report came
out in nineteen sixty nine and early nine sixty nine,
it seemed to shut down a lot of UFO interest
in the United States. But here in Australia. We had
quite an extensive UFO flat, so to speak of multiple
sightings and closing counter sightings right across the country. So
it was a very interesting time in Australia.
Speaker 1: Now, where has whe were you at that time? I'm
trying to think, was it South Wales, New South Wales?
Speaker 2: Is that it is that where you were.
Speaker 3: In New South Wales? It's I was in the north
coast of New South Wales, up the place called Grafton,
and that was my hometown and so a lot of
the local activity was happening and being monitored by me.
And that was the case right through it all. About
nineteen seventy five, well, actually from seventy one seventy two,
I went to the University of New England at Armadale,
which is, I guess, up in the mountainous region just
to the west of Grafton. And I'm just just trying
to give a geographical kind of location to all this.
And so I spent three years at the University of
New England at Armadale, and there I had an active
UFO group and we were investigating a lot of things
and and what was really quite striking is that seventy three,
we were engaged in doing a field kind of investigation
of a major intensityve U of five flap on the
door guy Plata, and luckily for me, it took me
into the realm of direct witnessing of the UFI promen
that kind of thing, and that was very striking for me.
Speaker 1: M Now, I know this is prior to that, but
when I think it was, boy, I don't know if
I have the date right or not, but was it
nineteen sixty six when Westall happened.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's correct and the go ahead. No.
Speaker 2: I just wondered if you had heard about it.
Speaker 1: I know you weren't really paying attention that much in
sixty six, you said, nineteen sixty nine, But had you
heard of that case prior to when you started looking
into this.
Speaker 3: Yeah, there was. There was sort of publicity given to it,
but it was kind of a bit of a sleeper report.
Nineteen sixty six historically turned out to be a huge
year for major UFO sightings, and it really kicked off
quite early in nineteen sixty six with the famous Tully
report up in far North Queensland, and that's where a
Bana farmer crossing his neighbour's property on a tractor at
nine o'clock in the morning in January nineteen, nineteen sixty six,
forty heard what it sounded like a air escaping. He
thought it might have been a problem with attractor tire,
but he stopped and then observed a disshaped object coming
out of a tidal lagoon area quite close to him,
within twenty yards and out of the horseshoe lagoon raise
a dish shaped object and it took off a slight dive,
and then he goes over to the lagoon and sees
a swirling massive water swirling in a clockwise position. Was
all dark, and Brocken comes back an hour or two
later and then sees that the reeds that were in
the lagoon itself had risen to the surface, and there
was like a natural pontoon of intertwined sword grass reads
so tightly wound in a clockwise direction that people were
able to climb onto that floating pontoon of sword grass roads,
and it could support the weight of a man. And
it was around about twenty eight to thirty feet in
diameter approximate the size of the UFO. So it was
a very striking physical trace case and that kicked off
the year, so to speak, in Australia in nineteen sixty six.
Speaker 1: Wow, Okay, yeah, I think it's possible either we touched
on that at last time we spoke, or maybe perhaps
I heard about that.
Speaker 2: But yeah, that sounds interesting.
Speaker 1: But I do want to skip back because I know
that you investigated kind of a interesting I'm trying to
think of the eighteen sixty eight Paramatta cases.
Speaker 2: That's something that you'd be able to talk a little
bit about.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it'll be confusing here with there's quite a time
delay going on anyway, the paramedic case that you're talking about.
I didn't learn of that until I moved to Sydney
full time and there to live and work in nine
and seventy five. And the likel UFI group had been
established since about nine and fifty six. It was one
of the earliest longest duration UFO groups in the world
in fact, five fifty six and then a sort of
honorary president of the group, Fred Phillips I, used to
spend a fevit of time with him in his personal
library and he had a huge interest not only the
UFOs but the paranormal the occult psychic type stuff. So
visiting his placed with his massive library was always a
real pleasure. And it was during one of those visits
that he showed me what appeared to be the reconstructed
journal entry by a Paramatto surveyor called Frederick William Birmingham,
and this surported to describe the land of a Ufo
or what he referred to as a flying arc in
Paramounta Park. This is a very large residential parkland area
at Paramounta. Paramatta was our first real city that developed,
the original first settlement of Australia by the British back
in seventeenth seventy eight, that had become a bit of
a cesspool, polluted, very poorly advantaged, and so they developed
the first city as such out to the west, probably
about twenty kilometers away, and that became the first major
city development in Australia. And it was at that location
that Frederick Birmingham had his sighting. Now, my initial reaction
to seeing this document was I wondered whether it was
some sort of more contemporary hoax, and so off I
went to the State Library, the Mitchell Library, to the
Receive department, started looking at all the historical newspaper accounts
that kind of thing. And what really amazed me was
I was starting to find very clear evidence that Frederick
Birmingham did exist. He was a surveyor, He was on
two occasions an ornerman or a politician on the local council,
and was quite well regarded as a surveyor and engineer
and involved in kind of council work involving like the
repair and maintenance of the local water works and all
that kind of stuff to ensure that there was a
clean water supply for the growing city of Paramatta. So
the guy existed. I came across maps and survey maps
that he had done, and so I was able to
verify it fatly quickly that yeah, okay, Frederick Birmingham was
a real person. But the question was was this document
a real product of Frederick Birmingham? And sure enough, over
a long period, we're able to determine that he actually
described that story, and it got documented in contemporary newspapers,
and even as you know, certainly by about eighteen seventy
two seventy three, there was documentation of newspaper counts in
the Paramount area. So the story itself was being described,
and there was a local horticulturist or seed merchant who
took a particular interest. He also had an active side
interest of historical studies, local interest, that kind of thing,
and he actually encountered Birmingham before he passed away in
eighteen ninety two, and I was able to secure some
of the original documents. And it was only in the
last year that actually I went to the University of
Sydney library in their record section and was able to
find there was like a doshia written by actually prepared
by Herbert Ramsey. He's the seed merchant or horticulturalist in
the local area, and he'd apparently donated that material to
the library at some point way back in about must
have been the nineteen thirties. And it turned out I
was the first person to look inside that envelope. And
oddly enough, the envelope that he had this material in
was a seed packet from the Ramsey and I'm looking
inside this expecting to see anything, but as it turned out,
it had an original picture of a airship that Birmingham
was inspired to make based on his vision that he
had in eighteen sixty eight. He described as a vision,
but he also had a daylight sighting in eighteen seventy two,
and it was a very interesting report historically, no way
to prove it, but it was certainly exciting for me,
after all these many many years to actually hold in
my hands his original drawing of the airship that he
was inspired to make based on his experience back in
ageen sixty eight and also bitten material by him he went.
He tried to sell his idea of an airship around
Paramatta and then New South while diking you too much interest,
but he actually went to the United States and around
the that in the eighteen eighties and was there trying
to get people interested in his project. A lot of
competition back in those days for early yearships.
Speaker 2: Very very interesting.
Speaker 1: Now, before we move on to you know, postnighteen forty
seven and get back into other things that you research,
there was also another thing you researched. That was the
nineteen twenty seven fern fern Veil, Ferndale Markman tape situation.
Can you talk about that?
Speaker 3: Yeah, the fern Vale event from nineteen twenty seven was
a really interesting one. I'd heard about it courtesy of
the Queensland Group, the Queensland Flying Source of Research Bureau
or it's now called UFO Research Queensland, and they didn't
one of their members told me about it, but maybe
the group seemed to be particularly interested in investigating it.
But I took an immediate interest in it, mainly because
it was a very striking story. And I made contact
with the gentleman, who was ten years old at the time,
in nineteen twenty seven, and I set off a letter
and there was sort of silence for I think a
couple of months, and out of the blue came this
long letter about I think about fifteen pages. They were
about handwritten in which he went to great detail describing
the events and essentially his family, his parents were running
there like sheer farmers, or they were hired to operate
a dairy farm, and also there were pigs there that
were fattened up and that was the main sort of
money supply ultimately, and so they are quite poor at
the time. But it was there living on the property.
But what they observed was apparently a disc that flew
over the property, traveled down the valley and then appeared
to land nearby. The family members and several locals visited
that location and they found a circular burnmark on the
side of the hill within viewing distance of the property itself,
and so that sort of was quite striking. Initially they
had never seen anything quite like it, an object that
appeared to be able to fly. It had no wings,
with a dish shaped looking thing, and it landed on
nearby hill. Now that was observed at night time. And
also there was other activity that seemed to herald a
lot of unusual activity on that property, which involved the
presence of people that you have to remember that back
in nineteen twenty seven at Wollombar or nearby Wollombar, there
was no real extensive usage of motor vehicles. That was
a new thing. There was a lot of dairy farming
and that kind of thing, but motor cars were a
rare thing. And yet during all this event, which it
took place over a two week period, there was a
strange motor vehicle that turned up onto the property, drove
onto the property. There were unusual people that would turn up,
almost like a men in black type parallel. So it
was a very unusual event. And there was also the
presence of what appeared to be a birdlike creature that
seem to stand on two legs. This was quite large,
the size of the I don't know, very very large penguin.
And both the gentleman that talked to me in later
life and his brother witnessed what sounded like strange cackling
or conversation going on. They looked up and they observed
two of these birdlike things passing overhead, very large wings
van and later their father or the gentleman's father asked
him to go out into the muddy road. There was
no bitchman there to retrieve the boots of a neighbor
who the night before had had a very frightening encounter
with a birdlike creature the sides of a large penguin
that terrified the life out of this local guy so
much so that he ended up uprooting and taking his
whole family and leaving the area in terror. So it
was a lot of weird stuff going on during that
period of time. So a very striking event all played
out in nineteen twenty seven, twenty years before Kenneth Arnold's
historic siting in nineteen forty seven. And what was really
quite crazy, wasn't it, Saga.
Speaker 2: It's okay, keep going.
Speaker 3: Yepker. What was very striking at the time was that
he he was an elderly gentleman when I spoke to him,
in his eighties. But I was able to go to
the location and talk to locals that were aware of
this event, and was able to be taken to the
act locations shown the property and get all this sort
of extra information. So there was a degree of confirmation
through the local community this family had this experience that
the location, the property was the scene of all this
kind of bizarre activity. But the big impact on the
farm and the local community was that that I mentioned earlier,
the fat and pigs, which was the main money supply
for the family. Actually, the pigs were apparently attacked during
the night and several of them were killed, and in
some cases the only thing left of the pigs was
a large pool of blood in the pig sty and around,
as if somehow whatever was there had taken the pigs
out of the sty and these big pigs and had
essentially consumed them or whatever taken them somewhere, but the
only remains were a pool of blood and evidence of
peak and that kind of thing. So it was a
very bizarre event. A lot of disturbance amongst the local
local cattle, the dairy bomb that they had, so there
was quite a huge impact on the local community. You
have to bear in mind this was a remote kind
of farming community, many dairy and stocks of pigs and
that kind of stuff. That was a very unusual and
frightening event for the family and the local community.
Speaker 1: M Uh yeah, we've got a bus of hesitation your
We are ten thousand miles apart or so thereabouts, and
so there is a little bit of a lag. But
so just keep that in mind if you're listening. But
uh so, I want to ask you. I'm going to
kind of put you on the spot and just ask you,
what is your the case that you really thought was spectacular,
that you invested, when you personally investigated that you really
enjoyed and you like to actually talk about.
Speaker 3: Yeah, you're really putting me on the spot. Because I've
got so many cases that fall into that kind of category,
I'll just choose one. Choose one, Okay. One of the
most interesting ones for me would be the landing type
case that the curtain Rosedale at nineteen eighty And why
I'm attracted to that was being having a chemist background,
I was intrigued by the indication there was physical evidence
at the site that kind of thing. A caretaker on
the property at Rosedale in the Gibson area Victoria had
actually witnessed what he first noticed as a sound disturbance,
like some sort of aircraft coming in a high pitched
whining noise. He comes out of the caretaker house that
he had on this property, and thinking that there was
some aircraft in trouble, looks out and sees what appeared
to be a dishshaped object, a dome thing with what
appeared to be portholes around it, about twenty eight feet
in diameter, and he observed that, passing low over the property,
it seemed to be heading towards a hay barn, quite
a large hay barn, and then it seemed to deviate
just to avoid colliding with the hay barn, and then
it seemed to go down another half a mile or
so to the next paddock where there was a ten
thousand gallon water tank. This object appeared to sit on
top of the water tank. It came to a stop
over the water tank, and then it appeared to slowly
move off the water tank and land on the ground
adjacent to the water tank. And what the caretaker who
can see and observe was the cattle and horses on
the property were in a state of total mayhem. They
were bellowing and carrying on. It was a huge disturbance
on the property. And as the caretaker, and we're talking
about midnight thereabouts, he realized he had to investigate, and
so off he goes on a mote of bike, driving
along or riding along to the adjacent paddock. He could
see that the livestock was tremendously disturbed. He goes through
into the open paddock, could still see the object on
the ground. And the closer he got, the clear it
became that this was not a helicopter or an aircraft
or a vehicle of any mundane prosaaric origin. This was
clearly some sort of dish shaped object of a fairly
substantial size, as I said, about twenty eight to thirty
feet in diameter. And he got to it and about
say about thirty or forty feet, and he started to
get very intimidated by what he was looking at. He's
sitting there, he stops, and he's there on his legs.
I'm sort of sitting with the motorbike and using his
legs to maintain balance, and at that point the object
suddenly rose up and tilted towards him so he could
see the base of the object, and then he was
hit by what seemed to be a blast of hot air,
and from the bottom of the object, all this debris
started to fall, and that debris consisted of cow patties
or cow droppings. They quite a thing dried out, and
you have to remember this time, it was during a
period of a heat wave, and there was a lot
of kind of loss of water, and so the caretaker's
critical role was to ensure that there was plenty of
water available in the water tank, and he used to
check that by loving a stone or something like that
into the water tank to make sure that he could
hear that there was a large amount of water still
present in the water tank. What he found on this
occasion was that the water tank itself had drained. But
these were discoveries that were in the following day. But
with the object turning, it hit him with that blast
of lot. Here it slowly moved away and followed in
a slow movement off into the distance and disappeared into
the night. Needless to say that the caretaker was shocked, disorientated,
started to experience all sort of physiological effects, very dramatic sighting,
with lots of physical evidence, a lot of ground trace evidence.
And the beauty of this case for me as a
physical scientist was that all the physical evidence kind of
connected with the sequence of events that we reported, so
it was like all the physical eleveents in the verify
what the caretaker was reporting. So incredibly striking case. Missel
Keith Bastabille and a local associate in Melbourne visited that
site in late December of the same year and the
caretaker took us through the whole event, recreated the sighting.
We spent all day with him and collected lots of
physical evidence, and the analysis of those results was it
didn't come up with anything unknown or unexplainable, but it
had supported the fact that he was a real physical
event that somehow, whatever the object was, it created a disturbance,
not only on the ground. The only clear difference was
a difference in chloroid levels. It was like a ring
shaped effect. The media got involved. The Channel nine that
one of the local TV networks flew over took a
helicopter shot of the ground trace. So there's a lot
of evidence there that we had to deal with. And
and also it turned out that there was a parcel
delivery van that went by during the night and it
was observed by the ataker and he apparently stopped on
the side of the road and appeared to have seen
the object on the ground as well. And there was
a young girl living on a neighboring property that also
witnessed possibly the same object during the night when she
woke up for a short time. So there was a
lot of independent evidence confirming I guess the reality of
the events. As to what it was, it was very
hard to determine that. But that's one of my favorite
physical trace cases. Apart from Tully and apart from Westall
that they were all these kind of quite striking, well
documented cases. I went beyond that and started to look
at physical levelence for the much more controversial end of
the viewer place spectrum that was aid in abduction. So
I started to investigate these sorts of cases, and LUCKI
and enough to have physical evidence in one such case,
that's the Preticuri case, which I think I've talked to
you a bit about before. That was probably one of
the most enduring and detailed case investigations that are done
in particularly in the alien production area.
Speaker 2: Hmm. Now, we have a lot in these states.
Speaker 1: We have a lot of cases, not a lot, but
there are a number of them where they there are
police involved. And do you have are there any good
cases in Australia where there's police involved.
Speaker 3: Well, look, there are quite a few. Like the one
of the cases that introduced me to the subject here
in the local area of Grafton and my hometown in
nineteen sixty six was sightings by local police officers who
were police officer at least three jurisdictions on the North Coast.
There was the Grafton area, the Casino area and the
Lismore area, so three different localities where police officers were
involved in actually chasing UFOs across the countryside. A lot
of it was put down to astronomical explanations, but when
you have objects sort of hopping into paddocks, landing and
taking off, it's very difficult to reconcile that with astronomical
explanations that kind of thing. So there were those sort
of police were related cases in nineteen sixty six. Obviously
I wasn't directly investigating those cases as a youngster. But
the probably one of the more striking police events would
have been from nineteen eighty three in a Melbourne suburb
called Melton, and it was a quite a striking case.
It got wide publicity, was reported in the media, reported
in the papers, and providentially I got the opportunity to
talk to the police officers that had spent half a
night on their night shift chasing a UFO across the
local area. Now we're talking an outer Melbourne suburb, Melton,
and the police claimed that this thing looked like a
Harrier jet but was capable of hovering and reversing. So
there was a lot of complexity to the case and
the witnesses were obviously quite credible. Indeed, the police officers
reported to the local station that the object was heading
towards the police station and they were suggesting to the
death stage to get outside and look and observed, to
see if you could see the object approaching. And indeed
he went out to the front of the police station
and witnessed the object coming over the police station hovering.
To him, it was unexplainable and it was the same
deal with the police officers are out in patrol trying
to capture this object to try and corner it, but
it just kept eluding them over the space of an
hour or two. So once again a very complicated sighting
that had a lot of police witnesses and entirely intrigue
them with wonder One of the bizarre aspects that at
one point the police were following this object and there's
a facility called Rock Bank which is a military intelligence
listing array site, so there were various antennas and that
kind of stuff that we use for monitoring of various
target sites, mainly overseas type intelligence gathering, that kind of thing.
So it was a very sensitive sight and during that
night the police witnessed the object that they had been
pursuing up to an hour an hour and a half
thereabouts during the night actually approached the main entenre array
of this military facility. It seemed to be moving towards
the intenre array, looked as though if it kept going
it would collide with the intenre array, got quite close
and then started to slowly reverse and come back, and
so it was a very striking case. And it was
that particular aspect of the sighting that created a huge
amount of controversy and concern amongst the military intelligence community,
and that's why it became the target of a lot
of official investigations. The RF investigated providentially. When I rang
the the police station at the time, there were afternoon
newspapers and the event was being reported in the afternoon newspapers,
and that's how I learned about the event, and I
immediately called the police station. It turned out the police
involved in the chase were just coming off shift and
the sergeant, who was also a witness, who I spoke to,
and I said, do you want to talk to them?
I said, of course, and so I was talking to
them fresh off the shift. And so therefore this was
a very sort of pretty quick follow up of the case.
And to me, it was very impressive. The police officers
were quite credible and let on the double if and
other authorities were investigating the case as well. So that's
a that's a pretty stroking police case.
Speaker 2: Hmm. That is great.
Speaker 1: Thank you for enlightening us on that. I have a
question this person change she is in actually in Australia,
and she wanted to know basically, if you're going to
go to the sixtieth Westall Annual next year.
Speaker 3: I certainly would sorry, yeah, I'd certainly like to be
going to that event, and I'm looking forward to it
and I'm trying to schedule that in so there'll be
a lot of people interested in going to that anniversary event, right,
that's actually yes.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, So I guess I want to touch on
another case, you know, as I mentioned earlier. But before
I do, I just want to just say a couple
of things here because I have some people coming up
this Thursday. For this is everyone for watching here now
or listening. I have a Ryan Krilick on craiglik On
at Thursday at.
Speaker 2: Eight pm coming up this week. Next week we have
a Philip of Lee do I think his name is?
Speaker 1: He is He's produced a UFO video and we're gonna
be talking about what inspired him to do that. Next week, actually,
on Thanksgiving, I'm gonna put this Thanksgiving look up that
on the screen.
Speaker 2: We have Thanksgiving here.
Speaker 1: In the United States, and so that day I'm actually
running a show that's Thursday. It's going to be a
pre recorded show with Professor Matthew Shadegis.
Speaker 2: He is.
Speaker 1: He's at a university U Albany, and they were just
funded for a UFO research, which I think is fantastic.
So Matthew will be on you can hear them. I
know a lot of people get bored here on Thanksgiving
night after they had their turkey dinner, so they're looking
for something to do. So I invite you to come
and check that out. I will be in chat if
I can be here, and that's next week on Thursday.
But thank you for that. So, Bill, if you would
just entice us on another one of the cases that
you really enjoyed. Now before you go there, I know
you did some DNA research.
Speaker 2: Is that something that you think was a fascinating case.
Speaker 3: Yeah, the day you're referring to was the Pretty Cury case.
And I write a whole book divided to that. I
think people I do understand that this is a very
complex case, and I write the book mindly. Is a
kount of why this is. The book was cool here
the island. You can see it in the background. The
book was really a caise study, and it was a
designed to attract people through attention and also to highlight
the fact that even in cases that involved only an abduction,
there was the possibility of potentially retrieving physical evidence in
this case, it was in the form of a biological sample,
a hair sample ostensibly from what appeared to be female
beings associated with this rather controversial and striking case. And
it's a fairly confronting kind of story. But a bit
of Curry was originally from Lebanon as a young child,
emigrated to Australia, got into the building industry, was involved
in a lot of cement rendering and that kind of stuff,
and he was probably the most unlikely UFI abductee person
that you would have, but he had this encounter, as
it turned out, a series of encounters nineteen eighty eight,
nineteen ninety two and another rather associated events. And that's
why it's very difficult to summarize. And so I encourage
people whither read the book or go to my main
osphial site put in Peter Curi's name. There's also a
connected site that I have that you can access via
the Osphile's website that I've got call the Alien DNA
Paradigm site, and that has a whole lot of information.
I know. It's the case has been the subject of
a lot of attention lately and people down here in
Australia wonder why it's taken so long for I guess
the general UFO scene, particularly in the United States, to
be aware of this case. You know, I had a
book published by a US publisher in two thousand and five.
Multiple reports I've written on the case from the year
two thousand and Actually nineteen ninety nine was the first
written detailed account in terms of the Allenheinech organization. That's
in a few of FASE studies. International UFO Reporter published
a paper by me called Strange Evidence. So there's been
this sequence of investigations, both of the nineteen eighty eight case,
nineteen ninety two case which led to the discovery of
the hair sample, and so to me, it's a very
strong evidential series of cases that support the reality of
this case and the DNA and a lot of people
misunderstand that the DNA evidence, and I really encourage people
to dig into the detail. And that's why when I
published the book, I wanted to make sure that the
detailed report and analysis by the biochemists involved was there
as an appendix, so that anybody with a biochemistry background
could read that report and know that it was done
by experience biochemist at the time of the book publication,
I wasn't able to identify the key people involved, and
as it stands now, the main coordinating scientist has come out,
and that's doctor Horace Drew, who was formerly a member
of the major science resource organization called the CSRO in Australia.
So he's one of the chief biochemists, well credentialed scientist,
the co author of one of the standard textbooks for
biochemists are called Understanding DNA, so impressive credentials. But he
was the main guy supervising this investigation in terms of
the biochemistry, and there were a number of analysts involved,
but we've decided that the identity of some of the
other biochemist is not appropriate to share. So the data
is there. The information has been verified to a circinxtent
and it seemed to imply that in the hair sample
it appeared to be of a hybrid nature. And this
is something that people need to understand. That people get
hung up on the basically thinking that they understand the
DNA investigation, but most people don't seem to the time
to examine the detail. And we did it in a
couple of phases. We examined the hair shaft. It showed
an Asian mongoloid DNA type sequence present in the hair
shaft and in the root of the hair, which we
did subsequently it seemed to show a different sequence. And
that kind of anomaly between the shaft and the root
of the hair sample shouldn't be occurring in normal human
hair or human DNA, and yet here we had evidence
of what appeared to be a hybrid sample, very unusual
and that certainly intrigued the biochemists that were involved in
the investigation as well. I should remind folks that I'm
not a biochemist. I'm an industrial chemist and trained in
industrial inorganic chemistry, and so I had a fairly rapid
learning curve to acquaint myself in biochemistry. You know, I
wasn't completely unexposed to buy chemistry, but certainly I had
good people to guide me through this process. And so
we've had a lot of opportunities to verify and review
the DNA work. And so to those that want the detail,
read the book here of the Alien, or go to
my site at in DNA Paradigm, which you can access
via the asphals blog site. That I've got very complicated mes.
Speaker 1: Yes, hang on, there we go so yes, Wow, that's yeah.
So I encourage people to go to the website and
we'll have that in.
Speaker 2: The show notes, So check that out.
Speaker 1: You know, I was thinking a bill that a New
Zealand is like, I don't know, fifteen hundred two thousand
miles away offshore from.
Speaker 2: Where you're at.
Speaker 1: And do you ever look into any cases in New Zealand.
Speaker 3: Well, there's been a long history of well established UFO
groups in New Zealand, and Suzy Hansen's one of the
more prominent researchers. In fact, she's an experiencer herself. And
you know, there have been a lot of intriguing cases
and I've been to New Zealand and investigated a number
of those kind of cases. One of the most interesting
cases for me was a whole complicated series of events
that played out at a location called Gisborne on the
North Island. And these are events that took place mainly
during the nineteen seventies and involved a number of people
claiming to have had close up class close camera events
and alien induction experiences. Probably the most concentrated grouping of
abduction related cases that I've come across in my experience
are all located in this Gisborne area, and people need
to understand that New Zealand is earthquake prone and that
kind of stuff. And there's a lot of speculation that
maybe this accounts for a lot of the UFI activity,
but again it's all speculation. But one thing for sure,
the Gisborne location, particularly during the nineteen seventies and in
the eighties, has been the location of a lot of
ongoing UFI activity and an incredibly high concentration of UFI
abduction type reports as well. And having talked to some
of the key witnesses who experienced all this, I was
quite impressed with the quality of witnesses and it's hard
not to be interested in that kind of complex case,
and it provides a lot of evidence for the possible
reality of these kinds of events.
Speaker 2: Mm hmmm.
Speaker 1: So, after all your years of research, what patterns or
consistencies do you see across like historic cases compared to
modern Are there any consistencies?
Speaker 3: Yeah, you ask all the easy questions Martin, but the
phenomenon I think has been extraordinariy robust. There's a lot
of consistency in terms of comparing current data. People argue
that it's all about kind of orbs and rather distant encounters.
But really the evidence when you start to dig into it,
the robust nature of the UFO phoenomen and the physical encounters,
the close encounters with large structure structured objects, that continues.
It's just that it's harder and harder for researchers to
stay on top of these kinds of cases because they're
being reported to all sorts of diverse locations. You know,
even Australian cases get reported to US sites and very
rarely does that information come back. We have to go
chasing all that kind of events. So there's still a
lack of coordination. But there's no doubt that the phenomenon
is robust. It's been continuous, it has very similar enduring characteristics.
Over the decades, there was a period of robust openness
with regard to abductiony forwards. Some people believe that the
controversy has died out, that there are no cases, but
there are many abduction cases still ongoing, quite striking cases,
and most of those don't get reported to the general
media simply because of the I guess, the problems of
people being socially isolated by it, the stigma of it
that kind of thing. But the abduction phenomenon seems to
be real and enduring, and certainly the close encounter events
are real and enduring as well. Anybody who says that
it's all about orbs and lights in the sky that
kind of stuff haven't really gotten into the deep dive
yet and that they need to understand that it's ongoing phenomenon,
and it is really good thing to see that there's
a high level of interest, even government interests in America.
Here in Australia, own government seems to put the head
in the sand like the proper wall streets, and they're
not encouraging open official investigations. I stopped at quotes on Walligoe,
but estain's clear evidence that is ongoing military interest as well,
based on more contacts with various people and others that
have had similar connections as well. I don't know where
that aims going on, and it's an enduring, remarkable phenomenon
that's worldwide.
Speaker 1: Right right, So you know the buzzword, I see there's
a question in chatting and ask that in just a minute,
But here the buzzword is NHI. Non human intelligence is
already one particular case that you would you could say
that there was definitely something that appeared to be a
non human intelligence.
Speaker 3: Well, again, the the Pedicury case is a remarkable example.
Love that the case is incredibly controversial, confronting, and yet
here we have DNA evidence that not only supports the case,
but seems to give controversial hybrid DNA evidence that supports it.
You know, surely that would be a wake up call
of people. Rather than ridicule these kinds of cases, they
should be examining it and looking at it in a
minded scientific way. And in Petericuru's case, I have to
say that the evidence supports it rather than detracts from it.
So I'm sure that there will be people here that
will attack the case. They've been doing that for decades, etc.
We're used to that. But more often not, those people
that are negative about the case happening bothered to look
at the details. They take all their or all their assumptions,
and yet they don't examine the case in detail. I
find that, you know, pretty bizarre. You know, if you're
going to comment about a case, it should be at
least informed about it and understand the basics of it
and taken the time to examine it rather than I guess,
reveal prejudices that are informed by a lack of being
informed about the subject. You know, so much of that's
happening at the moment, people making often quite ridiculous claims
and accusations and criticisms, and yet they themselves don't even
bother to investigate or research the material. That's bizarre, And
from a scientist point of view, you really need to
be informed. You really need to do the deep dive,
you need to examine the evidence. And there's a lot
of it. Yeah.
Speaker 1: To me, that sounds like almost like a smoking gun
type of situation, you know, if the evidence is there.
I mean, I'm surprised that more people aren't talking about
it's not known out there more than it is. And
what you're talking about with the skeptics, as I remember
Stanton Freeman, is to say by proclamation instead of investigation
that these people make their comments about.
Speaker 3: Well, I think as a researcher, I think you have
to get a bit of a thick skin. One gets
used to uninformed commentary that kind of stuff. And I
just wish that people who like to get aggressively involved
in various discussions that they are at least informed of
the basic facts of the case, rather than making a
knee jerk reaction and an uninformed one. But you know,
things are, I guess on the up swing. There's a
lot of interest, a lot of acknowledgment of the subject
these days, and so that's encouraging to see. And I
just hope that, particularly more internationally, that there are deeper
and more informed kind of official investigations as well, rather
than in our case here in Australia, a suggestion that
there's nothing to it, and yet the history of the
subject in my own country reveals that there's a hell
a lot to it, and a lot of official documentation
that is not well known, and one would hope that
people would spend the time to examine that. I know,
I've been documenting it for decades and it's kind of
frustrating sometimes to see the kind of empty words that
are often expressed I think by politicians and others that
should be better informed in terms of their own government
involvement in the subject over the decades.
Speaker 1: Here's a question for you here, are there any Australia
accounts from the years of World War Two in the Pacific,
any involving military art of the.
Speaker 3: Day right there, certainly are there are cases. I'm just
trying to think of them off the top of the head.
There it was a case that was quite controversial but
involved a bomber pilot who actually went on to become
a member of the Queensland Flying Sorcer Research Bureau I'm
thinking of. I think his name was Ricky Royal, and
he had an experience of encountering he was on a
bomber and encountering a UFO. The close proximity of the
UFI affected the electronics of the aircraft. That obviously had
a very striking impact on the gentleman concerned Ricky Royal,
so much so that he became one of the foundational
members of the Queensland Flying Sources Bureau, both the Queensland
Group Andrekie Royal in particular. With a subject of Asia
our attention, that's our domestic Australian Intelligent Security Service. ASIA
stands to Australian Security and Intelligence organization. And there was
a report done that you can locate in the Government
archives now. It goes in some detail of all the
members of the early Flying Source Group in Queensland and
it was sometimes not a very well informed or positive
kind of take on them. It seemed like back in
the nineteen fifties everything was kind of subject to the
lens of the red scare communism, that kind of stuff.
Anybody who advocated connections with, for example, Russia. One of
the major cases that historically speaking was the Tunguska case
of a possible UFO event back in nineteen oh eight,
and the Queensland group back in the nineteen fifties actually
had the temerity, i say, the foresight to actually directly
engage with the Russian signers that were writing reports about
the Gusta case of nineteen o eight, and they got
responses from the Russian scientists that, of course, given the day,
the Cold War era, attracted the attention of our local
security organization, which misunderstood why the severe UFO Flying Sources
groups were interested in connecting with Russian authorities. They weren't
about spreading communism in Australia, were like me, looking for
information about intriguing events. And when a Russian scientist, for example,
reports about the Gusta case or Russian cases, naturally researchers
alike here in Australia or in America take an interest
and yet intelligence scripts of the day saw that as
evidence of communist leadings, that kind of thing, and so
it's probably a bit more enlightened these days, but still
there's always that misunderstanding that comes from a lack of
awareness of what's being examined, what's being researched, and it
can be usually remedied by doing a degree of proper research,
being aware of their own files, that kind of stuff.
And that's why I keep reminding various government people that
I interact with, have a look at your own file,
so god say, review them. There's plenty of evidence there,
and they keep saying that they've examined the subject, there's
nothing just any scientific merit. And yet their own scientists,
their own pilots, their own defense officials have had their
own sightings, and yet there's no kind of modern awareness.
People seem to have a very short term memory when
it comes to the UFA subject. And yet it's all there.
It's very enduring phenomenon and plenty of documentation, right right.
Speaker 1: Is there another like to say, eventually we're all going
to get replaced? Is there another Bill Charker coming up?
I mean, are there any young people really involved in researching.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm not quite past my years by date yet, Martin,
but I'm still actively interested in doing investigations. But there
are a lot of up and coming active investigators. You know,
there was Restulton Morgan, that kind of thing. There's a
lot of newer researchers coming into the scenes. So I'm
trying to actively support these researchers and do a lot
of mentoring and that kind of stuff and sharing of information.
So it's great to see that there is no shortage
of people that are taking the time to look at
the totality of the UFO history but also look at
the modern day phenomenon as well, and trying to do
what I keep emphasizing, the deep dive into the subject,
and that means to really get you get into the
subject and do the kind of hard work that's required.
A lot of the times, there's so much I guess,
armchair andtification that goes on where it's pretty clear when
you listen to some of these people that they haven't
done any research. There's just subjective kind of responses and
you're kind of thinking they're getting more attention. It's just ridiculous,
and again I think people should yeah think about things critically, like,
have a listen to the credentials of the people that
are making various statements and take the time to carefully
consider what these people are saying, what credibility they have,
what kind of background, what kind of research they've done,
and then dual conclusions not a major reaction. Yep.
Speaker 2: I think that's wonderful advice.
Speaker 1: And it makes me happy that there's you know, people
up and coming and I feel the same, you know,
like I look around, I see that there are younger
people interested, and you know, this is something that you know,
is such a puzzle, a wonderful puzzle try to solve.
So I'm going to kind of end the show on this.
What would be in your world? What you think would
be a really big step forward in the UFO world?
Do you know people always bring up the disclosure thing.
I'm not sure if that's going to happen at any
given point, but I mean, what what do you see
would be like a next really good step.
Speaker 3: I think open scientific interest that's well funded, that kind
of thing. It's pretty evident that it costs money to
do serious investigation, and therefore there's got to be a
degree of funding. But again, there is such.
Speaker 4: A a broad base of data, so much to be examined,
and yet the standard criticism is where's your evidence?
Speaker 3: And my retort to that is that people should be
aware that the evidence is there, look look at it.
It doesn't take much to them to understand that there's
a huge body of information that's been there. And yet
you've got this ongoing controversy, and much of it's fed
by uh somewhat well uninformed kind of dialogues and comments
that go on in social media. Exactly, if only amount
of effort that's put into some of this commentary, if
only that was actually put into actually seriously examining the
subject and reviewing the documentation, that that would be a
major advance. And there's lots of organizations that are coming
into play that have been newly formed, doing a lot
of good work, and it's pretty easy to recognize those.
Speaker 2: Yep.
Speaker 3: It's a fairly positive situation that's getting better and better.
M m hm.
Speaker 1: Yes, well, Bill, I got to say, it's been such
a pleasure and I hope to have you back one day.
Speaker 2: You've just been you know, you've been a real.
Speaker 1: Positive thing in the UFO field in general, and like
I mentioned in the very beginning. Charles Lear, who does
all my blogs and he does a lot of historic work.
He's brought you into his the blogs that he writes
many times because of your wonderful research. And I just
want to thank you for all that you've done.
Speaker 3: Thank you very much. Glad to be appreciated.
Speaker 1: Yes, you are all right. So that's it for our
show tonight. Thank you all very much, and we'll be
back this Thursday with Ryan Kralik, and also next week
we have our guests coming up even on Thanksgiving, so
remember to keep your eyes to this guy every d