Speaker 1: This is Jonathan Pegel. Welcome to the symbolic world.
Speaker 2: So several years ago I coined this frame, watched the Fool.
And you know the purpose of saying that, I think
I said that in twenty seventeen, maybe or maybe twenty eighteen.
Speaker 1: I'm not sure.
Speaker 2: And so when I started saying that, what I wanted
people to be able to do is to watch the
Fool in especially in a world that I was top
to turby and upside down. Because this is a way
that my brother my Tear frames it is that when
the world is upside down, the fool is the one
that in some ways can give you a sign of
what is coming, can in some ways restore the world,
you know, restore the world right side up.
Speaker 1: Now, when you say.
Speaker 2: Right side up, it doesn't mean it's not a question
of morals.
Speaker 1: It's a question of a return to order.
Speaker 2: Right how, in some ways, the madness of the moment
in the Fool is kind of joking and turning, and
at the end he becomes a he becomes a victim
of his own ploy, and then he kind of almost
inadvertently restores things in the right side up.
Speaker 1: Okay, So I started saying that.
Speaker 2: A while ago at twenty nineteen when I saw that,
I think it was twenty eighteen or twenty nineteen, when
when our certain Kanye West put out an album called
Jesus Is King.
Speaker 1: I kind of could tell. And I've been telling people
to watch this.
Speaker 2: Particular person because he has a weird He's like a
weird tuning forks, someone who catches is what is coming.
He's a kind of inadvertent mystic. You could say he's
able to. I don't think he does it on purpose,
but he kind of is able to sense what is happening.
Speaker 1: And sense what is coming in the future and.
Speaker 2: Is manifesting it, usually in a rather contradictory way, but nonetheless,
this is how his life seems to proceed. It doesn't
seem to always be good for his own soul, but
you know, if you watch him, you can kind of
see what's coming. And so you know, in twenty eighteen,
twenty nineteen, he put out this album in Jesus King,
and he kind of converted to Christianity for a short time,
I guess. And you could know by watching that to
see that there was some things happening, and it kind
of foretold or showed us that there would be a
resurgence of Christianity, which happened during COVID and has been
happening ever since. And so we've kind of seen the
growth of the traditional churches, especially Orthodox Church and the
Catholic Church. I think it's happening in kind of more
traditional protesting churches as well. But you know, although you
could say the general statistics is still of decline to
participation in the church, there's a counter move which is
that young people are coming back, and young people are
coming into the church in droves.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 2: My church is bursting at the seams with new converts.
This is happening all over America. And so he despite himself,
was able to kind of perceive that in in his move.
And so now he's gone in a whole other direction.
For I think a year now, I don't follow him
that closely anymore because it's a little scary. He has
even more than a year now, he's kind of started
to manifest a kind of Nazi fetish where he is
bringing back all that imagery, bringing back to swastika and
is you know, and is bringing back Nazi imagery. He's
also is bringing back kind of a kk imagery. And
this kind of weird imagery, but as usual, he's doing
it in a absolutely contradictory way. In some ways, I
keep thinking that Kanye West is four Chance final form,
or maybe like Pepe's final form, because he is doing
it and people can't see the contradiction, which is kind
of funny in the same way that people couldn't see
the contradiction in Pepe. They only see the side that
they want to see. They only see the side that
is kind of sailing to them, and they can't see
that it's always proposed as a contradiction. His latest song,
which I won't even say the words because.
Speaker 1: It's you know, it's like you can look it up.
Speaker 2: It's a song that that, let's say, calls up on.
Speaker 1: A certain German chancellor. But the song in the song,
the way the song.
Speaker 2: Goes is that he uses a racial slur against black people,
like calling black people to recognize the German chancellor. And
so everybody is saying, don't you see that Hitler would
have hated black people? And it's like, you don't understand,
you don't understand the contradiction. You can't see that everything
about this man manifested itself in a contradiction, and like
I said, not to the benefit of his soul. It
feels like he's being ripped apart. But if you watch,
you can kind of see that this is happening, and
it's happening in conjunction with a whole lot of other
things that are showing us what is coming, that are
showing us what is happening to us. And you know,
I didn't really want to make this video, but it
feels like things are becoming so confused.
Speaker 1: Those people are so confused to watch.
Speaker 2: What's going on that they are struggling to understand.
Speaker 1: And so I guess we have to talk about it.
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Speaker 1: What is happening. So this has been going on for
a little while in little doses.
Speaker 2: But now things are kind of getting bigger and bigger,
and it's inevitable.
Speaker 1: You know, all.
Speaker 2: Worlds are based on a kind of sacred origin. Every
world has a kind of foundation and a foundation myth
on which it is based. That foundation myth, what it
does is it casts the light on the world, that
kind of structure the world.
Speaker 1: It gives you a frame.
Speaker 2: Tell you who the good guys are, tell you who
the bad guys are. You know, tells you what's important. Also,
frame space right kind of stabilizes space.
Speaker 1: For a while, you know.
Speaker 2: And our world is based on World War two, And
I think I don't have to explain that.
Speaker 1: Everybody kind of knows.
Speaker 2: Our geopolitical world is based on World War two. The
way that we understand ourselves is based on World War Two.
The hierarchy of values that we have is based on
World War two.
Speaker 1: All of this right.
Speaker 2: World War two is a kind of foundation myth for
our world today.
Speaker 1: Now.
Speaker 2: It played an important role in kind of holding us together.
It had its heroes, it had its its you could say,
its principalities, and it had its enemies, it had its devils,
and it held the world and created prosperity for quite
a long time and it kind of stabilized things now.
The thing about foundation myths, or you could say small
foundation myths, is that there's always there's always a sin
that's hidden in the foundation myth. There's always something, there's
always something because the world, the small world that we
participate in, these small stories that we participate in, they're
not the full thing.
Speaker 1: They're not the full world.
Speaker 2: They are in order to be coherent, they can't be complete.
And so because of that, they have to push things
into the margins, and that to push things outside, you
could say, so that they become blind spots, and they
become kind of monsters hiding in the corners that we
try to push back, we try to ignore, we try
to fight, but we nonetheless have to do that.
Speaker 1: And I want to be careful that.
Speaker 2: You understand that this is inevitable, like this is something
that all worlds do. There is no way around it.
And this is something that we did at the end
of World War two. And so World War two presents
itself as a kind of victory of good over evil,
as an establishing of a kind of world peace that
is going to last. But it also has a kind
of secret. And if you think about it, you know
the secret. You know when you when you grew up,
you were told we won World War two. We beat
the bad guys. You know, it was a moment of
victory of good over evil. And that's that, right, and
it established it chrablished the world. It established the world
moving towards democracy and moving towards a kind of you know,
a global vision of peace and all of that. Right,
it's in the wake of World War Two that we
coined the end of history idea that that now history
is over and that the tensions of history over. Of course,
that's all impossible. There's we're not going to reach the
end of history, at least not because.
Speaker 1: Of World War two. And World War two in order.
Speaker 2: To hold the stability of things together, had in it
a kind of dark secret, right, And the dark secret
is that who won World War two did the good
guys win World War Two. The reality of the war
is that we, in order to beat a very very
bad person and a very very bad thing that was
happening in Germany and that was spreading across the world
and could have, let's say, brought the world into a
form of tyranny, we had to ally ourselves with a tyrant,
with a horrible person in order to do that. And
then what we did is we handed half of Europe
to that evil person. And the level of torture and
of you know, people being imprisoned, whether it's in Romania
or in the Gulag or you know, in all of
these communist countries is horrible. The stories are absolutely horrible.
And so you know, we kind of in the general parlance,
we tend to hide that aspect of the story.
Speaker 1: In order to establish order. And so I want to
be careful. I want to I want to be careful.
Speaker 2: And does not say that there's necessarily an it's necessarily
of ill intent that we hide that, but it is
almost necessary in order to establish a kind of order.
And so you have a good guy and a bad guy,
and you know, and for all intents and purposes, the
bad guy is Hitler, and Hitler is a devil, like
Hitler is the devil of our world. If those two
words are interchangeable, you know, you you call if you
want to say that someone is the worst thing in
the world, that's what you do. You call them Hitler.
That's how you characterize it. It's even worse than calling
someone the devil. Actually calling someone Hitler is worse than
calling them a devil. That's how much Hitler has become
the devil for our current world. And you know, but
there's an issue, right, It's that you could say it
this way, is that this story, this myth, it has
an expiration date. Right, It can hold the world together
for a certain amount of time, but at some point
it will stop holding the world together. Now, the question
is you know that expiration date. We don't know when
it is, but it the countdown to that expiration date
started at the end of World War Two, and there
was there's no way for World War two to hold
the narrative of the world together forever.
Speaker 1: And you understand that, whether you whatever, you.
Speaker 2: Know, whatever you think, like I hope, you can understand
that it is impossible for that story to kind of
be the narrative let's say the narrative underlying pattern of
reality forever. And it is also impossible for Hitler to
remain the devil of the world forever, because although he
is a horrible evil person, you know, he cannot be
he is not worse than the devil. He is much
less worse than the devil, and he cannot play that
role of being worse than the devil and being the
devil forever. And so there was a time when that
would expire. And so anybody who knows how stories function,
and anybody who knows how stories kind of capture the
worlds and run through them, you know, knew or knows
that at some point will that structure is is going
to come apart and some new structure or a new
story will establish itself. I have intuited this a very
long time ago, a very very long time ago, and
I have said many times.
Speaker 1: I might even have said it on a video. I've
said it in private.
Speaker 2: Is that when the last people that were alive during
World War two die, the memory, you could call it,
the memory of that story will start to fade, and
that will have major consequences on our world, because the
story holding the world together is indistinguishable from memory. That is,
if we remember the story, then that story has a
hold on us. But as we if we forget the
story or the reason for the story, you could say
then at some point the story starts to break down.
And you could say that what we're seeing happening now
all over around us is the breakdown of the World
War two consensus.
Speaker 1: It's the breakdown of the whole that that story has
upon us.
Speaker 2: And it's something which it's not even a moral question, folks,
It's just something that at some point was going to happen.
The question is when it was going to happen. And
we can see it kind of happening now, and it's
happening in all kinds of guyses. It's happening at all
these different levels. It's happening in terms of the way
that we view ourselves. It's happening in the way that
politics is playing out, you know, the geopolitical vision of
the map even and how and what are the axes
that are holding things together, What are the alliances that
are holding the world together. All of these are shaking
right now, and people are kind of playing through this breakdown.
There are, of course, people that are going to try
to save it, you know. But the problem is that
in trying to save it, you can extend it for
a little while, but there is a time in which
it's going to fail you because the story of World War.
Speaker 1: Two is not sufficient to hold the world together.
Speaker 2: Because all sacred stories have taboos, they have sacred places,
they have, you know, certain things that you're not allowed
to touch, you know, because if you touch them, you
make everything shake.
Speaker 1: And that is what's happening now right the.
Speaker 2: Entire the entire story of the whole Douglas Murray and
Joe Rogan discussions the Darryl Cooper situation, the Tucker Carlston situation,
the crisis King question. Everything is kind of shaking that story,
you know. And one of the things that we notice,
and it's important to notice it to kind of understand
also why things are shaking the way they are is
because because of the taboo of the end of the war,
because it created a taboo, and it created a kind
of secret. You could say that the secret. It's not
a secret, but the deal that we made with Stalin
in order to win World War two created a pattern,
created a form that led the world. What do I
mean by that, which is it means that you know
my friend, you've heard my friend Jordan Peterson, I've heard
him several times when you know, saying, why do communists
get a pass in the West? Why is it that
you know, the fascists and the Nazis are the devil
and absolute evil, and you can't invoke any of their imagery.
And not only can you not invoke any of their imagery,
but if anyone is able to link anything you say
through one, two, three, four steps, as many steps as
you need it too fascism or to Nazi imagery, even
if it's not directly, even if it's like this person
met this person met this person. Therefore you can't this
first person he talked about, you can't mention them because
they knew someone who knew someone who knew someone who
was a Nazi. It's like, why is it that strong
and the Communis get a total pass? Why is it
that the Communists their intellectuals filled the universities.
Speaker 1: Why is it that, you know, even in.
Speaker 2: Terms of imagery, think about the Trucker protest in Canada
was a great example. You know, in the actual Trucker protest,
someone came to the protest and brought a Nazi flag
and the person it seems like the person was actually
some kind of fed, was actually a policeman or some
kind of infiltrator that was there to bring that flag
into the protest so that the media could talk about
it NonStop every day until the end of the protest.
And even though the people in the protest like told
him to leave, you know, got angry with this person,
and he finally had to leave because people around him
were getting aggressive about him holding that flag.
Speaker 1: It doesn't matter.
Speaker 2: The simple touching, like the infection of being connected to
that imagery was enough so that the main story that
the media went with was saying, they're all Nazis, right.
But in the counter protest of the Trucker protests, they
had Communist flags all around. They had literal Communist flags
in the counter protest, even though the Communists killed way
more people than the Nazis killed that the Gulag slaughtered
more people that the Communists. Although whether it's if you
join them all together, especially the Chinese, the Russians, the Vietnamese.
Speaker 1: The the you know, the.
Speaker 2: Cambodians, like all of the in Romania, in all the countries,
if you bring it together, their level of sustained slaughter
was much worse than the Nazis. Obviously, I'm not defending
the not saying that the Nazis are not as bad
or whatever.
Speaker 1: That's not the point.
Speaker 2: The point is to see that why is it that
that side is completely available, but the other side, if
you even touch, if you're even touched by.
Speaker 1: Their imagery, you are completely destroyed. Uh.
Speaker 2: And that's because of the secret. It's because the secret
of World War Two. It's it's because we made a
deal with Stalin in order to beat the Nazis. And
because of that, there's a kind of taboo, and there's
a pass for the for our for our allies, and
it just happens. It's not it's not even anybody doing
it on purpose. It just happens through natural narrative causes,
you could say. And so we have this problem, right,
and everybody has kind of experienced this problem.
Speaker 3: Uh.
Speaker 2: You know, which is that identity itself? As the time
went on, identity itself, whether it's gender identity in terms
of normal gender identity, whether it's national identity, whether it's
ethnic identity. Uh, any kind of tribal identity right is
in danger of being called the Nazi like. That's that's
how bad it was. And we've seen a kind of encroaching.
Anybody who lives in the South of the United States
will have seen this. One of the things that happened
is that, for example, every image of the South of
the United States is now equivalent to racism. And so
no matter what it is, the Confederate flag, Confederate images,
Confederate characters, you know all of these characters because they
are one, two, three, four, five, six, seven steps removed
from the from the sin of World War two, like
the the idea of how in the end, what happened
in World War two was an excess of tyranny and
identity in the in the Germans, and we made a
deal with the anti identity.
Speaker 1: We meant it.
Speaker 2: We made a deal with the with the communists that
are kind of revolutionary identity.
Speaker 1: We made a deal with them in order to beat
the tyranny of identity.
Speaker 2: Now everything that is associated with normal identity is associated
with power. Anything that's associated with normal identity becomes associated
with tyranny and ultimately can be associated with Nazi And
so that's why there's this like slide and everybody's experienced that,
and everybody is kind of seeing that.
Speaker 1: Now that is not a balanced portrayal of reality. Right,
that can't hold.
Speaker 2: That cannot happen because what you end up with is
a rainbow tyranny. Right, you end up with a kind
of imposition of openness.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 2: I think of Justin Trudeau that says openness is our
only value. Right, we post national nations where we don't
actually have a nation. We are just openness to the outside.
And we need indefinite migration, and we need indefinite immigrants,
you know, because our.
Speaker 1: Identity is actually bad.
Speaker 2: We actually want secretly, even knowingly orknowingly, we want to
destroy identities. We want the whole world to just be
a giant soup that doesn't have identity. Right, because of this,
all of this, because of the myth of World War two,
at first kind of holding the world together in a
beautiful way, but then ultimately that story running its course,
and you could say the side effects of the story, right,
the negative aspects of the story started to play themselves
out more and more and more and more and more
and more. Now we end up in this problem. And
now what we're going to see and we're going to
see the breakdown of those taboos and the breakdown of
those myths. And it's going to happen in all kinds
of ways that are going to seem contradictory at the outset,
But if you pay attention, you'll notice that that is
what is going to happen NonStop, and so and even
people who will hate each other will end up playing
out the breakdown of the World War two consensus. Here's
a simple example, you know, a simple example to show
you how it's not as simple as you think. So, right,
Donald Trump is elected president. He decides that all of
these national identities, all these kind of borders that exist,
that they don't seem to matter to him, like he
just wants to seems to think that he can redefine them. However,
he wants and has this kind of populist, you know,
stance and so and he's being accused, of course, of
being a Nazi. Obviously that's how you do it. You know,
he's the devil. If he's bad, he's the devil. If
he's the devil, then it's better to say he's the Nazi,
to say that he's Hitler, rather than say that he
is the devil. But that's playing out in a way
that people don't expect, which is that in the actions
that he's doing, and in saying to Canada, well, if
you're a post national nation and you don't have an identity,
why are you opposed to just joining us? Like, why
are you opposed to just being taken over? Because you
keep saying that you don't have an identity. You've been
saying that for ten years, and so let's just take
you in. I mean, you don't care, right, You're just
about openness. And then the Canadians react and they're like, no,
our nation. We are proud Canadians, we are proud nationalists.
And it's like, oh, my goodness, can you see what's happening?
Can you see that it's all playing out that no
matter what you do, that the breakdown is playing out.
And so it's just important to kind of notice that.
And so you know, and this is of course what
mister West is manifesting in his own confusion, in the
own kind of breakdown of his of his world, and
in some ways, in his desire to transgress every single
boundary and try and dress every single taboo in his
kind of clown contradiction, he is grasping to reassimilate the
imagery of the of the.
Speaker 1: Of the World War two taboo.
Speaker 2: And it's happening in all kinds of chaotic ways, like
it's not just him, it's happening all over the place,
and it's and it's it is in some ways an
extremely dangerous, dangerous time because if we're not careful, obviously,
you know, we're become you could say, we become Satanists
to our little story.
Speaker 1: That is that.
Speaker 2: We we naively embrace the opposite of the narrative and
we think, oh no, and you see it happening, right,
you see all these morons that they're like, it's actually
the Nazis that were right and there everything about them
was right, and everything about what they were doing was right.
Speaker 1: And it's like it's like, oh my.
Speaker 2: Goodness, it's sohedeous and embarrassing, which is why I don't
like to talk about it, you know. But that's the
danger of what's coming is that is that there has
to be a way to reintegrate this story in a
manner that won't let all the demons out of hell,
that won't let all the demons that are resentful and
angry that have come to realize because they have no
place in the current story, that the anti story is
actually the completely right one, that the anti version of
the story is the right one. They're for all intents
and purposes, they're like, let's say World War two metal
heads right, world War two Satanists in that sense where
it's like the upside down story is the right one,
but that is not the right way to go. There
has to be a kind of reintegration so that we
can come back to a type of synthesis. Now I
don't know how that reintegration happens. I don't know the
way to do it. I don't think it's also my
job to do that, but I'm just warning everyone that
it is going to happen, and what I hope is
that it happens in the least insane way, in a
way that doesn't provoke just an anti story, which is
something that is that is definitely possible, because there are
some things like a little example like this is actually
one of the best examples to kind of understand how
at some point the story has the myth has to
kind of be reintegrated more completely into a bigger story,
which is a good example of the swastika. It's like,
the swastika is the most ancient image. It's the most
universal image, one of the most universal images that exists.
It is found in every single culture. It is found.
It is one of the oldest images. You find it
in all over the world in thousands and thousands of
years ago, you know, four thousand, five thousand years before
before Christ.
Speaker 1: It's everywhere, you know.
Speaker 2: You can find it in India, in South America, you
can find it in you can find it in uh
in European churches.
Speaker 1: You find it everywhere, you know.
Speaker 2: And so so the Nazis capture this image, right, and
they use it for their diabolical purpose, you know. But
then what happens is because they use it for their diabolical.
Speaker 1: Purposes, then it's it's captured.
Speaker 2: And so now this is a scary image for how
long forever? Like forever, this image that is the mo
one of the most powerful images in the world, is
captured by by these these these devils. That is not possible,
you know, Just that image at some point has to
break out because it's bigger than the Nazis, and it's
bigger than them, and and and the swaska is kind
of like a little example of how things get this
problem of like capture and infection. You know, the idea
that everything how can I say this, like the idea
that something if it's tainted, you know, with the Nazis
is now were boating forever and you saw that happening,
like all over all of a sudden, it's like you
can't say this, you can't do this, all these things
you can't do. And if you remember, like all the
four chan trolls were playing jokes on this narrative, like
they were doing that in twenty sixteen, twenty seventeen, and
they would you know, if you followed that, it was
kind of funny. They started saying, just to just to
provoke people, that the okay sign, like this sign that
Trump was doing, he was always kind of doing this
okay sign, that that meant white supremacy. Then immediately when
they said that, the left said, now you can't do
the okay sign anymore because it's white supremacy. And then
they started saying that drinking milk was like white supremacist.
And so then the left started saying you can't use
milk anymore, like drinking milk is racist, you know, and
it's like they were kind of playing with this problem,
which is that, you know, this weird capture of the
story that has had become a kind of parody, and
that's the issue. I remember watching a video when I
was a teenager.
Speaker 1: It really struck me.
Speaker 2: There was a kind of more conservative writer in France
that was writing, was writing I'd created like a conservative group,
and he was using the image of a kind of
Germanic image of a night on a horse that had
been developed in the Middle Ages, you know, And then
their critics what did they say, Well, they said Germanic
night on a horse.
Speaker 3: Huh.
Speaker 2: You know that some Nazi at some time point in
the World War two use that image or use an
image that looks like it, and so are.
Speaker 1: You a Nazi? You know, because you're using that image.
Speaker 2: And it's like the guy was like, what, this is
a medieval image, and it's like it doesn't.
Speaker 1: Matter, it doesn't matter. You can't use it. And so
that's not possible.
Speaker 2: You can't hold the world prisoner forever, and you can't
hold European identity prisoner forever, and you can't hold the
swastika prisoner forever. Like it just some point has to
be reintegrated, and the question is how do we do it?
What is the best way to do it? You know,
I have some ideas about that. I don't know. It's
a very like I said, it is nonetheless a very
dangerous time, and so I would say, be very careful.
Please don't take this in as a kind of Please
if you're watching this and you have a temptation for
the anti story in you, please understand that the anti
story is.
Speaker 1: Not the way to go.
Speaker 2: Which we need is a proper kind of integration so
that we can elevate this into a new, more powerful
and more encompassing story.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 1: And it's happened before, you know. It's like.
Speaker 2: The generals in the and the wars in the past,
some of the things that happen.
Speaker 1: If you take Alexander the Great.
Speaker 2: You know, Alexander the Great is a horrible, horrible man,
you know. He he the way that he destroyed those
that resisted him even a little, and just raised the
city to the ground and salted the earth and just
killed everybody, all the men, all the women, all the children.
Like he's a monster, you know, And we can still
say that, but he has been reintegrated into the story
in a way that recognizes, you know, the effect that
he had on the world, also seeing all the monstrosity
that he's done, and that in some ways, ultimately that
is what is going to have to happen to the
World War two story. It doesn't mean that it has
to happen fast. It can happen slowly. It can happen
over decades, can happen over generations. But there this is
the inevitable way in which it moves because if we
tried to hold on to the taboo forever, at some point,
that taboo, all the all the demons that it's held
at the bottom, like all of this repression that it's done,
and that repression is a repressed story. But it finds
body and those that are repressed. It finds body in
those that are marginalized and those that are held outside
of the narrative. And so it's not just a story.
It's embodied in people. So the angry, the resentful, those
that see that they have no stake in the story
are tempted and you can understand why to embody the
counter story to become Satanists for all intents and purposes,
for this little, this particular story and so we can't
let that, we can't let.
Speaker 1: The satanic moment win, and so we have to find
a better, a better solution. So that's my little thought
on that. I hope it is useful.
Speaker 2: These are very difficult subjects to talk about, but I
hope that I brought you a little further on this reflection,
and so wishing everybody all the best and talk to
you very soon.
Speaker 1: Bye bye.
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