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<v Speaker 1>Cliff May, good to see you again.

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<v Speaker 2>Good to see you, Mandy always.

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<v Speaker 3>Well, you got to Colin in the Washington Times today

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<v Speaker 3>that we must chat about because I have been talking

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<v Speaker 3>about this obviously. We just passed the horrific anniversary of

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<v Speaker 3>October seventh, and as if on Q, the pro Hamastikid,

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<v Speaker 3>you know, fans showed up to I don't know, celebrate

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<v Speaker 3>the rape and murder and pillaging of twelve hundred Israelis

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<v Speaker 3>and the continued keeping up the hostages and all of

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<v Speaker 3>that stuff that's beyond me, Like I can't even get

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<v Speaker 3>I can't wrap.

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<v Speaker 1>My head around that. I don't even want to talk

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<v Speaker 1>about those people.

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<v Speaker 2>That means, I'll just say it is astonishing. Yeah, there

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<v Speaker 2>are no crazy Japanese celebrating Pearl Harbor Day. There are

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<v Speaker 2>no crazy Nazis that I know that, you know, celebrate

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<v Speaker 2>the start of World War two, or I mean, it

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<v Speaker 2>is really a sign.

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<v Speaker 1>It's one.

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<v Speaker 2>Look, I totally understand you feel bad for the Palestinian people.

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<v Speaker 2>I do too, it's awful, But if you're celebrating Hamas Hamas,

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<v Speaker 2>it is a mus that has caused all this suffering,

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<v Speaker 2>not just for the Israelis, not just for the Jews.

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<v Speaker 1>But for the.

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<v Speaker 2>Palestinians, yep, their life was very different. On October six,

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<v Speaker 2>two years ago. It was a decent life. We can

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<v Speaker 2>talk with that people so always in prison. No, it wasn't.

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<v Speaker 2>You can find the pictures online of the restaurants along

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<v Speaker 2>the beach. It had such promise. We can talk about that.

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<v Speaker 2>I'll stop.

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<v Speaker 3>Look, no, we don't even have to talk about promise.

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<v Speaker 3>We can talk about what it was when the Jews

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<v Speaker 3>lived there. I mean, respectfully, the Jews had created a

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<v Speaker 3>thriving economy. They had greenhouses, they were building their own food.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, we don't have to imagine what that would

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<v Speaker 1>look like.

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<v Speaker 3>But let me jump to your column, because you did

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<v Speaker 3>a great job here. And I've been trying to do

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<v Speaker 3>this over the past couple of days with the anti

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<v Speaker 3>Israel folks that I have in my audience, trying to

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<v Speaker 3>give them a little bit of the history. I have

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<v Speaker 3>one young man say, Mandy, I'm just I'm sick of

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<v Speaker 3>Israel because we give them so much fourign eight and

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<v Speaker 3>I had to explain that foreign aid to Israel is

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<v Speaker 3>basically just a job's pro for the defense industry in

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<v Speaker 3>the United States of America, because so much of that

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<v Speaker 3>money just comes right back to our defense industry. But

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<v Speaker 3>if you could, you do a great job in this

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<v Speaker 3>column giving the backstory. And I think that the backstory

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<v Speaker 3>is lost for a lot of younger people especially, which

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<v Speaker 3>is why we see even higher levels of support for

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<v Speaker 3>Hamas in people eighteen to twenty four years old.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, you're absolutely right. Let me. I'll give a little

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<v Speaker 2>bit of history if I can, But I also want

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<v Speaker 2>to just say this, our defense industry needs to grow

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<v Speaker 2>in this world. Given that we're in Cold War two

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<v Speaker 2>point zero, and the US and Israel worked very closely,

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<v Speaker 2>and you have to do at a part in this

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<v Speaker 2>in developing the weapons that war fighters for America, warfighters

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<v Speaker 2>that both need. The Israelis are very good to do this.

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<v Speaker 2>They get it done very quickly. They're very inventive with

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<v Speaker 2>a test American weapons, they use American weapons. So you know,

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<v Speaker 2>it was one of the important things that's happened over

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<v Speaker 2>the last couple of years is the US in Israel

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<v Speaker 2>combined have stopped the Islamic Republic of Iran, which since

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<v Speaker 2>nineteen seventy nine has been chanting death to the Israel,

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<v Speaker 2>death to America, from developing nuclear weapons. May it be permanent,

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<v Speaker 2>but they're setback by years. That was done with American

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<v Speaker 2>F thirty fives flown by Israeli pilots that cleared the way,

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<v Speaker 2>and then a B two bomber stealth bomber could come

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<v Speaker 2>from America know that it would not be attacked. Not

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<v Speaker 2>that I think they'd hit it anyhow, but President Trump

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<v Speaker 2>would want to risk one and drop massive ordnance penetrators

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<v Speaker 2>these unbelievable American bombs and do severe damage to the

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<v Speaker 2>Islamic Republic of Iran's nuclear weapons program. Okay, enough on that,

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<v Speaker 2>but I just say, let me just say this. America

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<v Speaker 2>doesn't need dependents abroad. America needs partners abroad. And if

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<v Speaker 2>they are fighting, and if the America's partners are fighting

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<v Speaker 2>common enemies, they are helping us. They are a force multiplier.

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<v Speaker 2>We need more competent allies who contribute to the collective security,

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<v Speaker 2>not fewer. That's a whole other show. But I think

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<v Speaker 2>this is such an important point to make. Our defense

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<v Speaker 2>industry needs to do more. Anyhow, we can do it

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<v Speaker 2>with some recent history and some real distance history. Reason

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<v Speaker 2>history exist. In two thousand and five, the Israelis withdrew

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<v Speaker 2>from Gaza. They withdrew every farmer, every soldier, every synagogue,

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<v Speaker 2>every cemetery, and they did that to test a proposition

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<v Speaker 2>that there was a possibility of a land for peace solution.

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<v Speaker 1>If you just got out.

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<v Speaker 2>Of their hair, if you weren't didn't have a Jews

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<v Speaker 2>around the Palestinian Arabs and Gaza, everything would be called pathetic. Okay,

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<v Speaker 2>they pulled back and left. They asked for nothing in return.

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<v Speaker 3>You know, let me interject something here, because I still

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<v Speaker 3>remember seeing the news stories. It's not like all the

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<v Speaker 3>Jews voluntarily got up and left, right, No, it had

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<v Speaker 3>been dragular. Government literally dragged Jewish people out of homes

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<v Speaker 3>that they had lived in for decades. They forced the

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<v Speaker 3>removed Jews from.

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<v Speaker 1>The Gaza strip. And I think that gets.

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<v Speaker 3>Glossed over by a lot of people who just ignore

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<v Speaker 3>the fact that these are these things that the Israeli

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<v Speaker 3>government has done to its own people in order to

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<v Speaker 3>facilitate peace.

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<v Speaker 2>But go ahead, that's absolutely right. These were Jewish villages.

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<v Speaker 2>They weren't hurting anybody. There weren't a lot of them.

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<v Speaker 2>They wanted a trade with their Arab neighbors. They were

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<v Speaker 2>glad to have Arab neighbors in a land gaza that

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<v Speaker 2>has long time jew a Jewish presence. How long anybody

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<v Speaker 2>remembers Samson and Elivah, that's how long ago we go

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<v Speaker 2>back there. But okay, they were going to get but

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<v Speaker 2>you're right. A lot of them had to be dragged

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<v Speaker 2>out some because they said, this is my home. I've

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<v Speaker 2>made it here, I'm living here, I'm not doing anybody

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<v Speaker 2>any harm. Others said, if you do this, it's a

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<v Speaker 2>mistake and you're going to rule the day. And of

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<v Speaker 2>course it turns out they were right. Now. That was

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<v Speaker 2>two thousand and five. By two thousand and seven, Hamas

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<v Speaker 2>a terrorist group, a Muslim brotherhood group talked a little

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<v Speaker 2>bit about them. Soon What did they do. They overthrew

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<v Speaker 2>through the palston in authority. I'm talking when I say

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<v Speaker 2>I we're through, not in a nice way. Threw people

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<v Speaker 2>off rooftops, shot people, made chase them away, and said

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<v Speaker 2>we're taking over here. They took over. By two thousand

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<v Speaker 2>and seven, huge amounts of money poured in from what

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<v Speaker 2>we call the international donor community. The UN came in

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<v Speaker 2>with its agencies to provide services, education, healthcare. Ammas said

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<v Speaker 2>glad to have you here, but you take your orders

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<v Speaker 2>from us, and you don't complain about it, right, And

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<v Speaker 2>they said, yes, sir, you got it. That's what we're

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<v Speaker 2>going to do. You know what could have even so,

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<v Speaker 2>what could have happened is you could have ended up

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<v Speaker 2>with another thing, now land for peaces and were a

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<v Speaker 2>two state solution. Because you have a proto state here, right.

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<v Speaker 2>You have a population, it's governed by Hamas. There are

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<v Speaker 2>no Jews, there are no Israelis. The Israelis think, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>maybe we can help. They provide humanitarian aid comes in

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<v Speaker 2>from anywhere every day through various passes. They supply water

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<v Speaker 2>because there wasn't enough fresh water. They supply electricity, wasn't

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<v Speaker 2>enough electricity. They supply fuel for vehicles, all that cars,

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<v Speaker 2>Mercedes dealerships, all that existed in gods and Hamas said, okay,

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<v Speaker 2>that's great. All this is taken care of. We will

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<v Speaker 2>do what we want to do. And what we're going

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<v Speaker 2>to do is build a subterranean fortress unlike anything you

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<v Speaker 2>have ever seen, anything the world has seen, from which

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<v Speaker 2>we will fight a war. Just had of cost billions

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<v Speaker 2>of dollars. They built it. The Israeli should have known

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<v Speaker 2>they were building it and what they were doing. Why

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<v Speaker 2>they were building it. Somehow they didn't. October seventh, the

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<v Speaker 2>Hamas and adjacent those adjacent Toomas break through the fences,

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<v Speaker 2>very low tech way of doing it. As you know,

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<v Speaker 2>it's a pogrom, it's a massacre, it's a rape. Young

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<v Speaker 2>girls who were at a and men who are at

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<v Speaker 2>a music festival didn't have enough guards. They get killed,

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<v Speaker 2>they get raped, they get hostages taken away.

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<v Speaker 1>All that.

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<v Speaker 2>But again, Hamas could have said, we're going to normalize

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<v Speaker 2>relations with Israel and have a two state solution, and

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<v Speaker 2>then the same thing would have up on what's called

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<v Speaker 2>the West Bank, which of course was called Judea and

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<v Speaker 2>Samaria until the Jordanian army occupied it in nineteen forty eight.

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<v Speaker 2>They were throwing it. And this is also important. There

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<v Speaker 2>was never a Palestini Gaza from nineteen forty eight to

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<v Speaker 2>nineteen sixty seven was administered by Egypt. No one said

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<v Speaker 2>let's put a palace Centi state there. The west Bank,

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<v Speaker 2>actually called again Judaean Samaria, was taken over nineteen forty

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<v Speaker 2>eight by Jordan. No one said let's put a Palistinian

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<v Speaker 2>state there. That the Jordanians were there, they expelled all

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<v Speaker 2>the Jews. They desecrated synagogues in graveyards in sixty seven.

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<v Speaker 2>In that war, the jew Israelis took it back. So

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<v Speaker 2>all that one more thing in history I hate. I

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<v Speaker 2>don't get too tu wonkey and your listeners, But if

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<v Speaker 2>you understand Hamas, Hamas is not, doesn't no one want

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<v Speaker 2>a Palestinian state. They say that what they want is

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<v Speaker 2>an emirate of the coming Califate. What they believe is

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<v Speaker 2>that any land ever conquered by a Muslim army remains

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<v Speaker 2>a walk an endowment from all its and the Muslims,

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<v Speaker 2>and must be taken back through jihad.

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<v Speaker 1>And again.

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<v Speaker 2>The Israelis were the last indigenous people to have sovereignty

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<v Speaker 2>in this land. After that came the Romans. The Romans

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<v Speaker 2>expelled a lot of the Jews. They had various empires,

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<v Speaker 2>the Arabs musclim Arabs from Arabia nearby, but not part

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<v Speaker 2>of the same thing. They brilliant came out That army

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<v Speaker 2>in the seventh century, went all the way across North

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<v Speaker 2>Africa and up into Spain, went all the way east

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<v Speaker 2>to what is now Pakistan and beyond. It was a

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<v Speaker 2>great conquest, but it's always empires. All the Jews have

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<v Speaker 2>done in israel Is decolonize it and say we're going

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<v Speaker 2>to have sovereignty in a little part.

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<v Speaker 1>Of our ancient homeland.

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<v Speaker 2>AMAS will not allow that, and that's why there's no

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<v Speaker 2>two state solution and there was no Land for Peace

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<v Speaker 2>of solution in two thousand and five.

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<v Speaker 3>So, Cliff, let's talk about Trump's strategy and the way

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<v Speaker 3>that he has kind of blown up traditional diplomacy in

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<v Speaker 3>the sense that he looked around and said, who can

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<v Speaker 3>I get on my side that can pressure Hamas? Because

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<v Speaker 3>how many you've watched the same way I have. You've

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<v Speaker 3>seen all these stupid peace summits where air Fat shows

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<v Speaker 3>up with his little entourage and then walks away if

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<v Speaker 3>he even though he's being offered everything he asked for.

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<v Speaker 3>You know, Trump looked at this and said, obviously, we

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<v Speaker 3>can't pressure Hamas in a way that they need to

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<v Speaker 3>be pressured. So now he's brought in Turkey, he's brought

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<v Speaker 3>in Cutter, he's brought in all of these nations, the UAE.

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<v Speaker 3>He's not brought in all of these Arab states to

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<v Speaker 3>basically go to Hamas. Yeah, this is the best deal

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<v Speaker 3>you're gonna get, and you should take it. Has this

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<v Speaker 3>ever been tried. This particular strategy been tried in that

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<v Speaker 3>region before.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm not sure it has been. You're right that it's

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<v Speaker 2>the secret sauce. You know, the after October seventh, when

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<v Speaker 2>it was clear the Israelis we're going to do a

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<v Speaker 2>lot of damage to a Moss, people immediately said, well,

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<v Speaker 2>what's your plan for the day after, as if that's

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<v Speaker 2>their responsibility. But even so, any plan the Reelies had

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<v Speaker 2>come up with would have been dead on arrival throughout

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<v Speaker 2>the hour world. And if Trump had just said I

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<v Speaker 2>got my plan by all by myself, people said, oh, well,

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<v Speaker 2>it's Trump's plant. What Trump did was to say, I

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<v Speaker 2>need backing from you guys, and he got backing from Egypt,

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<v Speaker 2>he got backing from Jordan, he got back into the studies,

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<v Speaker 2>got backing from the Amoradis, and even from the Turks

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<v Speaker 2>and the Qataris. I say even from because the Cirks

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<v Speaker 2>and the Qataris are long time fervent supporters of Hamas.

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<v Speaker 2>Right now, how much pressure they're putting on Hamas I

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<v Speaker 2>can't accept. I don't know, we don't know. I don't

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<v Speaker 2>I don't I can't even tell you how it's going

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<v Speaker 2>exactly over there. I can update you from what I'm

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<v Speaker 2>seeing in the news, but I don't know the camass

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<v Speaker 2>not doesn't I want to give up the twenty living

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<v Speaker 2>hostages we believe that are living, and the twenty five

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<v Speaker 2>or so dead bodies of those sub that they've killed,

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<v Speaker 2>except for a lot, a lot of concessions, some of

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<v Speaker 2>which the Israelis probably are going to give, and Trump

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<v Speaker 2>may twist their arm to give a lot of concessions.

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<v Speaker 2>Among the concessions, we know about two hundred and fifty

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<v Speaker 2>convicted terror convicted of the serving life sentences for murder.

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<v Speaker 2>They're going to be released, and they'll go back to

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<v Speaker 2>the g out against Israel. Seventeen hundred Gosins who have

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<v Speaker 2>been detained since this war began two years ago. They're

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<v Speaker 2>going to be released. They'll go back to the Ghad

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<v Speaker 2>all that. But the Hamas will be saying, that's that's

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<v Speaker 2>not quite enough. We also want this, this, this, this,

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<v Speaker 2>and I don't know that we can get all the

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<v Speaker 2>all the hostage. That was the other thing that that

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<v Speaker 2>Trump did, that's different. He said, no, I want the hostages,

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<v Speaker 2>all of them released first, then everything else falls, not

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<v Speaker 2>the other way around, because otherwise will never happen. But

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<v Speaker 2>Hamas will try to say, Hey, I'm not giving up

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<v Speaker 2>all my bargaining chips. I want to continue to have them.

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<v Speaker 2>How long any of these twenty can survive in any

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<v Speaker 2>case torture as they are, Who knows really.

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<v Speaker 3>Cliff May is my guest. His column about this is

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<v Speaker 3>super good. I don't know if you saw cal Thomas's

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<v Speaker 3>piece where essentially the entire column is it doesn't matter

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<v Speaker 3>what Hamas says, we can't trust them anyway. And I

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<v Speaker 3>think that's a very fair assessment. I mean, I have

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<v Speaker 3>somebody said, do you really think this peace steal is

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<v Speaker 3>going to happen? They asked me, and I said, I

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<v Speaker 3>will believe it when I see hostages walking free and

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<v Speaker 3>anew in government that doesn't include Hamas in charge of

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<v Speaker 3>the Gaza strip and Hamas is completely disarmed, that is

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<v Speaker 3>when I will believe that Hamas is going to do

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<v Speaker 3>what Hamas says. Otherwise, realistically, none of these paperwork is

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<v Speaker 3>worth the paper that it's written on until they follow through.

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<v Speaker 2>And Hamas is part of the Muslim Brotherhood, and the

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<v Speaker 2>Muslim Brotherhood is going back to the nineteen twenties in

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<v Speaker 2>Egypt when it started, it started not long after the

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<v Speaker 2>collapse of the Ottoman Empire, which was the last caliphate,

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<v Speaker 2>and the idea was and remains we need to re

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<v Speaker 2>establish an Islamic caliphate and empire, and it must in

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<v Speaker 2>time come to dominate the world, because that's what our

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<v Speaker 2>religion demands. We must have Sharia law. It's not everywhere.

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<v Speaker 2>We have to conquer Rome, we have to conquer Britain,

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<v Speaker 2>we have to conquer France. And by the they're not

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<v Speaker 2>doing a bad job at any of that.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, yeah, I mean bad job. Good job will depend

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<v Speaker 1>on what I'm saying.

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<v Speaker 2>They're making progress, Yeah, I making Listen, even in Denver,

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<v Speaker 2>as you say, you've got prohamas in Denver, they're not saying, hey,

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<v Speaker 2>all these people who have been saying this a genocide

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<v Speaker 2>going on, Oh my god, the humanity. If they think

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<v Speaker 2>there's a genocide, then why aren't they pressing for a

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<v Speaker 2>deal aday that would end the genocide today? Why do

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<v Speaker 2>they say, no, let's let the genocide go on a

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<v Speaker 2>little longer because we want to do more damage to Israel.

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<v Speaker 2>Genocide's okay, We'll take the genocide.

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<v Speaker 1>Of course.

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<v Speaker 2>It's easier for that. It's easier to say if you're

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<v Speaker 2>living in Denver, then if you're somebody in Gaza who

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<v Speaker 2>would just love to see this war end, and I

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<v Speaker 2>do believe many godsins perhaps most would really like this

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<v Speaker 2>conflict to end. I'm not gonna say they're going to

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<v Speaker 2>love the Israelis. I am going to say they may

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<v Speaker 2>believe a mus has ruined our lives for a generation.

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<v Speaker 2>Do we have to continue to go? Can we not

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<v Speaker 2>get some life back for ourselves?

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<v Speaker 3>Amen to that cliff Day from the cliff May from

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<v Speaker 3>the Foundation for the Defensive Democracies. Good to see my

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<v Speaker 3>friend will talk again soon. Any time May always thinks

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<v Speaker 3>class