Speaker 1: Cliff May, good to see you again.
Speaker 2: Good to see you, Mandy always.
Speaker 3: Well, you got to Colin in the Washington Times today
Speaker 3: that we must chat about because I have been talking
Speaker 3: about this obviously. We just passed the horrific anniversary of
Speaker 3: October seventh, and as if on Q, the pro Hamastikid,
Speaker 3: you know, fans showed up to I don't know, celebrate
Speaker 3: the rape and murder and pillaging of twelve hundred Israelis
Speaker 3: and the continued keeping up the hostages and all of
Speaker 3: that stuff that's beyond me, Like I can't even get
Speaker 3: I can't wrap.
Speaker 1: My head around that. I don't even want to talk
Speaker 1: about those people.
Speaker 2: That means, I'll just say it is astonishing. Yeah, there
Speaker 2: are no crazy Japanese celebrating Pearl Harbor Day. There are
Speaker 2: no crazy Nazis that I know that, you know, celebrate
Speaker 2: the start of World War two, or I mean, it
Speaker 2: is really a sign.
Speaker 1: It's one.
Speaker 2: Look, I totally understand you feel bad for the Palestinian people.
Speaker 2: I do too, it's awful, But if you're celebrating Hamas Hamas,
Speaker 2: it is a mus that has caused all this suffering,
Speaker 2: not just for the Israelis, not just for the Jews.
Speaker 1: But for the.
Speaker 2: Palestinians, yep, their life was very different. On October six,
Speaker 2: two years ago. It was a decent life. We can
Speaker 2: talk with that people so always in prison. No, it wasn't.
Speaker 2: You can find the pictures online of the restaurants along
Speaker 2: the beach. It had such promise. We can talk about that.
Speaker 2: I'll stop.
Speaker 3: Look, no, we don't even have to talk about promise.
Speaker 3: We can talk about what it was when the Jews
Speaker 3: lived there. I mean, respectfully, the Jews had created a
Speaker 3: thriving economy. They had greenhouses, they were building their own food.
Speaker 1: I mean, we don't have to imagine what that would
Speaker 1: look like.
Speaker 3: But let me jump to your column, because you did
Speaker 3: a great job here. And I've been trying to do
Speaker 3: this over the past couple of days with the anti
Speaker 3: Israel folks that I have in my audience, trying to
Speaker 3: give them a little bit of the history. I have
Speaker 3: one young man say, Mandy, I'm just I'm sick of
Speaker 3: Israel because we give them so much fourign eight and
Speaker 3: I had to explain that foreign aid to Israel is
Speaker 3: basically just a job's pro for the defense industry in
Speaker 3: the United States of America, because so much of that
Speaker 3: money just comes right back to our defense industry. But
Speaker 3: if you could, you do a great job in this
Speaker 3: column giving the backstory. And I think that the backstory
Speaker 3: is lost for a lot of younger people especially, which
Speaker 3: is why we see even higher levels of support for
Speaker 3: Hamas in people eighteen to twenty four years old.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you're absolutely right. Let me. I'll give a little
Speaker 2: bit of history if I can, But I also want
Speaker 2: to just say this, our defense industry needs to grow
Speaker 2: in this world. Given that we're in Cold War two
Speaker 2: point zero, and the US and Israel worked very closely,
Speaker 2: and you have to do at a part in this
Speaker 2: in developing the weapons that war fighters for America, warfighters
Speaker 2: that both need. The Israelis are very good to do this.
Speaker 2: They get it done very quickly. They're very inventive with
Speaker 2: a test American weapons, they use American weapons. So you know,
Speaker 2: it was one of the important things that's happened over
Speaker 2: the last couple of years is the US in Israel
Speaker 2: combined have stopped the Islamic Republic of Iran, which since
Speaker 2: nineteen seventy nine has been chanting death to the Israel,
Speaker 2: death to America, from developing nuclear weapons. May it be permanent,
Speaker 2: but they're setback by years. That was done with American
Speaker 2: F thirty fives flown by Israeli pilots that cleared the way,
Speaker 2: and then a B two bomber stealth bomber could come
Speaker 2: from America know that it would not be attacked. Not
Speaker 2: that I think they'd hit it anyhow, but President Trump
Speaker 2: would want to risk one and drop massive ordnance penetrators
Speaker 2: these unbelievable American bombs and do severe damage to the
Speaker 2: Islamic Republic of Iran's nuclear weapons program. Okay, enough on that,
Speaker 2: but I just say, let me just say this. America
Speaker 2: doesn't need dependents abroad. America needs partners abroad. And if
Speaker 2: they are fighting, and if the America's partners are fighting
Speaker 2: common enemies, they are helping us. They are a force multiplier.
Speaker 2: We need more competent allies who contribute to the collective security,
Speaker 2: not fewer. That's a whole other show. But I think
Speaker 2: this is such an important point to make. Our defense
Speaker 2: industry needs to do more. Anyhow, we can do it
Speaker 2: with some recent history and some real distance history. Reason
Speaker 2: history exist. In two thousand and five, the Israelis withdrew
Speaker 2: from Gaza. They withdrew every farmer, every soldier, every synagogue,
Speaker 2: every cemetery, and they did that to test a proposition
Speaker 2: that there was a possibility of a land for peace solution.
Speaker 1: If you just got out.
Speaker 2: Of their hair, if you weren't didn't have a Jews
Speaker 2: around the Palestinian Arabs and Gaza, everything would be called pathetic. Okay,
Speaker 2: they pulled back and left. They asked for nothing in return.
Speaker 3: You know, let me interject something here, because I still
Speaker 3: remember seeing the news stories. It's not like all the
Speaker 3: Jews voluntarily got up and left, right, No, it had
Speaker 3: been dragular. Government literally dragged Jewish people out of homes
Speaker 3: that they had lived in for decades. They forced the
Speaker 3: removed Jews from.
Speaker 1: The Gaza strip. And I think that gets.
Speaker 3: Glossed over by a lot of people who just ignore
Speaker 3: the fact that these are these things that the Israeli
Speaker 3: government has done to its own people in order to
Speaker 3: facilitate peace.
Speaker 2: But go ahead, that's absolutely right. These were Jewish villages.
Speaker 2: They weren't hurting anybody. There weren't a lot of them.
Speaker 2: They wanted a trade with their Arab neighbors. They were
Speaker 2: glad to have Arab neighbors in a land gaza that
Speaker 2: has long time jew a Jewish presence. How long anybody
Speaker 2: remembers Samson and Elivah, that's how long ago we go
Speaker 2: back there. But okay, they were going to get but
Speaker 2: you're right. A lot of them had to be dragged
Speaker 2: out some because they said, this is my home. I've
Speaker 2: made it here, I'm living here, I'm not doing anybody
Speaker 2: any harm. Others said, if you do this, it's a
Speaker 2: mistake and you're going to rule the day. And of
Speaker 2: course it turns out they were right. Now. That was
Speaker 2: two thousand and five. By two thousand and seven, Hamas
Speaker 2: a terrorist group, a Muslim brotherhood group talked a little
Speaker 2: bit about them. Soon What did they do. They overthrew
Speaker 2: through the palston in authority. I'm talking when I say
Speaker 2: I we're through, not in a nice way. Threw people
Speaker 2: off rooftops, shot people, made chase them away, and said
Speaker 2: we're taking over here. They took over. By two thousand
Speaker 2: and seven, huge amounts of money poured in from what
Speaker 2: we call the international donor community. The UN came in
Speaker 2: with its agencies to provide services, education, healthcare. Ammas said
Speaker 2: glad to have you here, but you take your orders
Speaker 2: from us, and you don't complain about it, right, And
Speaker 2: they said, yes, sir, you got it. That's what we're
Speaker 2: going to do. You know what could have even so,
Speaker 2: what could have happened is you could have ended up
Speaker 2: with another thing, now land for peaces and were a
Speaker 2: two state solution. Because you have a proto state here, right.
Speaker 2: You have a population, it's governed by Hamas. There are
Speaker 2: no Jews, there are no Israelis. The Israelis think, you know,
Speaker 2: maybe we can help. They provide humanitarian aid comes in
Speaker 2: from anywhere every day through various passes. They supply water
Speaker 2: because there wasn't enough fresh water. They supply electricity, wasn't
Speaker 2: enough electricity. They supply fuel for vehicles, all that cars,
Speaker 2: Mercedes dealerships, all that existed in gods and Hamas said, okay,
Speaker 2: that's great. All this is taken care of. We will
Speaker 2: do what we want to do. And what we're going
Speaker 2: to do is build a subterranean fortress unlike anything you
Speaker 2: have ever seen, anything the world has seen, from which
Speaker 2: we will fight a war. Just had of cost billions
Speaker 2: of dollars. They built it. The Israeli should have known
Speaker 2: they were building it and what they were doing. Why
Speaker 2: they were building it. Somehow they didn't. October seventh, the
Speaker 2: Hamas and adjacent those adjacent Toomas break through the fences,
Speaker 2: very low tech way of doing it. As you know,
Speaker 2: it's a pogrom, it's a massacre, it's a rape. Young
Speaker 2: girls who were at a and men who are at
Speaker 2: a music festival didn't have enough guards. They get killed,
Speaker 2: they get raped, they get hostages taken away.
Speaker 1: All that.
Speaker 2: But again, Hamas could have said, we're going to normalize
Speaker 2: relations with Israel and have a two state solution, and
Speaker 2: then the same thing would have up on what's called
Speaker 2: the West Bank, which of course was called Judea and
Speaker 2: Samaria until the Jordanian army occupied it in nineteen forty eight.
Speaker 2: They were throwing it. And this is also important. There
Speaker 2: was never a Palestini Gaza from nineteen forty eight to
Speaker 2: nineteen sixty seven was administered by Egypt. No one said
Speaker 2: let's put a palace Centi state there. The west Bank,
Speaker 2: actually called again Judaean Samaria, was taken over nineteen forty
Speaker 2: eight by Jordan. No one said let's put a Palistinian
Speaker 2: state there. That the Jordanians were there, they expelled all
Speaker 2: the Jews. They desecrated synagogues in graveyards in sixty seven.
Speaker 2: In that war, the jew Israelis took it back. So
Speaker 2: all that one more thing in history I hate. I
Speaker 2: don't get too tu wonkey and your listeners, But if
Speaker 2: you understand Hamas, Hamas is not, doesn't no one want
Speaker 2: a Palestinian state. They say that what they want is
Speaker 2: an emirate of the coming Califate. What they believe is
Speaker 2: that any land ever conquered by a Muslim army remains
Speaker 2: a walk an endowment from all its and the Muslims,
Speaker 2: and must be taken back through jihad.
Speaker 1: And again.
Speaker 2: The Israelis were the last indigenous people to have sovereignty
Speaker 2: in this land. After that came the Romans. The Romans
Speaker 2: expelled a lot of the Jews. They had various empires,
Speaker 2: the Arabs musclim Arabs from Arabia nearby, but not part
Speaker 2: of the same thing. They brilliant came out That army
Speaker 2: in the seventh century, went all the way across North
Speaker 2: Africa and up into Spain, went all the way east
Speaker 2: to what is now Pakistan and beyond. It was a
Speaker 2: great conquest, but it's always empires. All the Jews have
Speaker 2: done in israel Is decolonize it and say we're going
Speaker 2: to have sovereignty in a little part.
Speaker 1: Of our ancient homeland.
Speaker 2: AMAS will not allow that, and that's why there's no
Speaker 2: two state solution and there was no Land for Peace
Speaker 2: of solution in two thousand and five.
Speaker 3: So, Cliff, let's talk about Trump's strategy and the way
Speaker 3: that he has kind of blown up traditional diplomacy in
Speaker 3: the sense that he looked around and said, who can
Speaker 3: I get on my side that can pressure Hamas? Because
Speaker 3: how many you've watched the same way I have. You've
Speaker 3: seen all these stupid peace summits where air Fat shows
Speaker 3: up with his little entourage and then walks away if
Speaker 3: he even though he's being offered everything he asked for.
Speaker 3: You know, Trump looked at this and said, obviously, we
Speaker 3: can't pressure Hamas in a way that they need to
Speaker 3: be pressured. So now he's brought in Turkey, he's brought
Speaker 3: in Cutter, he's brought in all of these nations, the UAE.
Speaker 3: He's not brought in all of these Arab states to
Speaker 3: basically go to Hamas. Yeah, this is the best deal
Speaker 3: you're gonna get, and you should take it. Has this
Speaker 3: ever been tried. This particular strategy been tried in that
Speaker 3: region before.
Speaker 2: I'm not sure it has been. You're right that it's
Speaker 2: the secret sauce. You know, the after October seventh, when
Speaker 2: it was clear the Israelis we're going to do a
Speaker 2: lot of damage to a Moss, people immediately said, well,
Speaker 2: what's your plan for the day after, as if that's
Speaker 2: their responsibility. But even so, any plan the Reelies had
Speaker 2: come up with would have been dead on arrival throughout
Speaker 2: the hour world. And if Trump had just said I
Speaker 2: got my plan by all by myself, people said, oh, well,
Speaker 2: it's Trump's plant. What Trump did was to say, I
Speaker 2: need backing from you guys, and he got backing from Egypt,
Speaker 2: he got backing from Jordan, he got back into the studies,
Speaker 2: got backing from the Amoradis, and even from the Turks
Speaker 2: and the Qataris. I say even from because the Cirks
Speaker 2: and the Qataris are long time fervent supporters of Hamas.
Speaker 2: Right now, how much pressure they're putting on Hamas I
Speaker 2: can't accept. I don't know, we don't know. I don't
Speaker 2: I don't I can't even tell you how it's going
Speaker 2: exactly over there. I can update you from what I'm
Speaker 2: seeing in the news, but I don't know the camass
Speaker 2: not doesn't I want to give up the twenty living
Speaker 2: hostages we believe that are living, and the twenty five
Speaker 2: or so dead bodies of those sub that they've killed,
Speaker 2: except for a lot, a lot of concessions, some of
Speaker 2: which the Israelis probably are going to give, and Trump
Speaker 2: may twist their arm to give a lot of concessions.
Speaker 2: Among the concessions, we know about two hundred and fifty
Speaker 2: convicted terror convicted of the serving life sentences for murder.
Speaker 2: They're going to be released, and they'll go back to
Speaker 2: the g out against Israel. Seventeen hundred Gosins who have
Speaker 2: been detained since this war began two years ago. They're
Speaker 2: going to be released. They'll go back to the Ghad
Speaker 2: all that. But the Hamas will be saying, that's that's
Speaker 2: not quite enough. We also want this, this, this, this,
Speaker 2: and I don't know that we can get all the
Speaker 2: all the hostage. That was the other thing that that
Speaker 2: Trump did, that's different. He said, no, I want the hostages,
Speaker 2: all of them released first, then everything else falls, not
Speaker 2: the other way around, because otherwise will never happen. But
Speaker 2: Hamas will try to say, Hey, I'm not giving up
Speaker 2: all my bargaining chips. I want to continue to have them.
Speaker 2: How long any of these twenty can survive in any
Speaker 2: case torture as they are, Who knows really.
Speaker 3: Cliff May is my guest. His column about this is
Speaker 3: super good. I don't know if you saw cal Thomas's
Speaker 3: piece where essentially the entire column is it doesn't matter
Speaker 3: what Hamas says, we can't trust them anyway. And I
Speaker 3: think that's a very fair assessment. I mean, I have
Speaker 3: somebody said, do you really think this peace steal is
Speaker 3: going to happen? They asked me, and I said, I
Speaker 3: will believe it when I see hostages walking free and
Speaker 3: anew in government that doesn't include Hamas in charge of
Speaker 3: the Gaza strip and Hamas is completely disarmed, that is
Speaker 3: when I will believe that Hamas is going to do
Speaker 3: what Hamas says. Otherwise, realistically, none of these paperwork is
Speaker 3: worth the paper that it's written on until they follow through.
Speaker 2: And Hamas is part of the Muslim Brotherhood, and the
Speaker 2: Muslim Brotherhood is going back to the nineteen twenties in
Speaker 2: Egypt when it started, it started not long after the
Speaker 2: collapse of the Ottoman Empire, which was the last caliphate,
Speaker 2: and the idea was and remains we need to re
Speaker 2: establish an Islamic caliphate and empire, and it must in
Speaker 2: time come to dominate the world, because that's what our
Speaker 2: religion demands. We must have Sharia law. It's not everywhere.
Speaker 2: We have to conquer Rome, we have to conquer Britain,
Speaker 2: we have to conquer France. And by the they're not
Speaker 2: doing a bad job at any of that.
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, I mean bad job. Good job will depend
Speaker 1: on what I'm saying.
Speaker 2: They're making progress, Yeah, I making Listen, even in Denver,
Speaker 2: as you say, you've got prohamas in Denver, they're not saying, hey,
Speaker 2: all these people who have been saying this a genocide
Speaker 2: going on, Oh my god, the humanity. If they think
Speaker 2: there's a genocide, then why aren't they pressing for a
Speaker 2: deal aday that would end the genocide today? Why do
Speaker 2: they say, no, let's let the genocide go on a
Speaker 2: little longer because we want to do more damage to Israel.
Speaker 2: Genocide's okay, We'll take the genocide.
Speaker 1: Of course.
Speaker 2: It's easier for that. It's easier to say if you're
Speaker 2: living in Denver, then if you're somebody in Gaza who
Speaker 2: would just love to see this war end, and I
Speaker 2: do believe many godsins perhaps most would really like this
Speaker 2: conflict to end. I'm not gonna say they're going to
Speaker 2: love the Israelis. I am going to say they may
Speaker 2: believe a mus has ruined our lives for a generation.
Speaker 2: Do we have to continue to go? Can we not
Speaker 2: get some life back for ourselves?
Speaker 3: Amen to that cliff Day from the cliff May from
Speaker 3: the Foundation for the Defensive Democracies. Good to see my
Speaker 3: friend will talk again soon. Any time May always thinks
Speaker 3: class