Speaker 1: Welcome to the Paranormal Pendul podcast, coming to you from
the hearts of Pendle Witch Country in the northwest of England.
My name is Craig Bryant, author, investigator and collector of stories.
Join me as we take a journey into the paranorial
UFO sightings, cryptozoology and big cats.
Speaker 2: This is the Paranormal Pendul Podcast. Hello, Welcome to episode
fifty four half Paranormal Pendules, broadcasting to the Paranorial UK
network Paukradio dot com. So my guest on this episode
is a returning guest. It's Mark Colly. Last time Mark
was on, we chatted about UFOs specifically. It was Hello,
I warned you.
Speaker 3: I did say you would put in an appearance there.
He is, sorry, That's that's really put you off, hasn't it.
Speaker 2: Cocker Spaniels under mid good job you cat? Actually well yeah,
so yeah, last time we chatted, we we talked about
Europe as well talks about UFOs. So today we're gonna
chat about something a little bit different. We're gonna have
a chat about two of you books specifically, but they
are actually quite sort of wide wide ranging subjects, really
quite big subjects. Revealing the Green man and also the
life and times of the real Robin Hood. So Mark, welcome,
thanks for coming back. And Stampy well yeah, well, if
Stampy wants to chip in at any point, that's fine.
Speaker 3: Or brother, I think he probably will.
Speaker 2: Yeah, let's start them with with Robin Hood. Okay, I
think everybody's got the sort of Hollywood version of Robin
Hood comes to mind when when you mentioned Robin Hood.
So you know, swashbuckling, devastatingly good looking Robin from the
poor to give to the rich. How accurate is that?
Speaker 3: It's it's got some basis. Okay, he's got some bassis
in truth. Obviously, there's no smoke without fire as a character.
A lot of people seem to think that he's pieced
together from a lot of other different bits and bobs,
which actually isn't true. You can actually trace him all
the way back. Certain other writers who shall remain nameless
got him back as far as sort of the thirteen
hundreds and then into the twelve hundreds. But actually I
think the original, original, original, original Robin is in the
eleven hundreds. I think he goes all the way back
to that point. I've got to say at the beginning
that though, you're in for a pretty tough bit of research.
It took me about four years to get through it
because very much like you know, when we had the
Big Crazy with David Beckham, you know, everybody was called David.
You've got the same thing happening with Robin. You know,
it starts off as one person and then it just
balloons and basically, you know, every single person then who
has that kind of criminal outlook and comes from the
North of England, you know, et cetera, they all end
up being referred to as a Robin Hood or a
Robin Hood's plural. So it does get really difficult. And
that's course so many people, so many you know, so
much confusion. The guy I'm looking at was born probably
in the winter of eleven twenty three, going into sorry, no,
let's get this right, eleven twenty I very rarely used notes,
but I'm doing tonight eleven twenty nine into eleven thirty
in that winter. I think that's probably when he was born.
And the reason you can work that out is because
of everything that's happening in the medieval world around that time.
So once you've got that, once you've got a start date,
let's call it eleven thirty. Once you've got that as
a start date, you can then start to move forward.
The obvious thing then is you know, the Sheriffs of Nottingham,
they are historical characters. I don't think anyone would argue
with that.
Speaker 2: There's a list.
Speaker 3: There's an actual list which they've got at the castle
in Nottingham, so they can tell you who was there
and when. And then the other thing that nobody I
don't think anybody's going to argue with is what's going
on historically in the medieval world. So you've got you
know classic you know Kings coming and going, the Wicked
King John, you know Richard, the Lion Heart, all those
kind of characters. You've got two sets of chronology there,
and if you push them together, this is where it
gets quite exciting, because I don't think anybody's ever done
this before. If you push them together and then start
to string out the life of Robin Hood, all of
a sudden it all makes sense, especially with the Sheriffs
of Nottingham, because of course they're specific, so you know,
all the dates kind of add up. So yeah, I'm
quite convinced he was a real character. I'm quite convinced
that in the book we've managed to nail his lifetime
and probably quite a few of the things he did.
Speaker 2: So you mentioned that you can sort of you're fairly
certain about his birthdate or his birthy year because of
what was going on at the time. Gene elaborate a
little bit about what was actually happening in England at
the time.
Speaker 3: Well, let me make sure I get the right king
to see, and I'm cheated of it. I'm using my
own book. Let's get a plug in here. There you go,
there's the advertate. That's what that's what you need. You
need that book. Oh the other thing is please note
it's r O b y n HBDE. We had to
do that because obviously there's one thousand and one of
the you know, Robin books spelt the same way, and
that is actually his name in Old English. So you know, Well,
the king that you're.
Speaker 2: Looking for John, wasn't it to begin with?
Speaker 3: Well, if he starts at the very beginning, eleven hundred
to eleven thirty five, that's Henry the first. What's interesting
is given that Robin seems to live to quite an
old age, because I think he's about eighty five when
he passes away. He's quite old, eighty five and eighty
nine somewhere in that sort of bracket.
Speaker 2: That's an age, isn't it. For that period of time,
it is.
Speaker 3: But I mean, the more you learn about him, the
more you realize he's kind of, you know, the peak
of physical fitness. Eventually he's a knight. He's a forester.
You know, he's got everything he needs in a forest.
You know, he knows how to live. He knows how
to survive. He's supported by financially and materially by the
people around him, who later became known as his merry men. Obviously,
further down the line, it looks like he's not only
working for King Richard, he's also working for the Knights Templar.
So there's every reason to believe that he had the
best life possible, you know. But what I'm coming to
is it means he basically outlives five kings, right, you know,
he straddles five of them, which again is where your
timeline becomes really important, which the book has, you know,
we try and stick to a timeline. So yeah, a
few of the other things that's going on. I am
aware of the fact that the Knight's Templar are actually
forming officially at this point. You know, it was in
the early eleven hundreds that they got recognition from the Pope.
So you know, he's there really right at the beginning
of the whole history of the Templars and to some
extent foresters as well. You know, he's not that far
after the Norman conquest, so the dust is still settling
on that as well.
Speaker 2: Henry the First was one of the younger sons of
William the Conqueror, wasn't he?
Speaker 3: Yes, he was indeed, in fact.
Speaker 2: William Rufus, who died without issue, as they say, without children.
Speaker 3: Yeah, he's the chap that accidentally got shot in the
New Forest with an arrow in it. Yeah, when it happened, ups, Yeah,
I think they learned a thing or too off the dad,
you know, you know, William the Conqueror, Dearing May. Yeah,
so that's that's the kind of you know that that's
where he's coming from. That he's born into that and
he's growing up with the consolidation of that. So I
think that's also a reason why he's legend preserved has
been preserved, because you know, he's really there crucial you know,
crucial point in British history.
Speaker 2: Was he from a particularly wealthy family then or from
a sort of sort of a both peasantry, because there
was there was definite sort of layers of society, wasn't
there at the time.
Speaker 3: Yeah. One of the things I came up with which
which proved the legends not necessarily to be true. The
later legends always had him as a dispossessed Anglo of Saxon.
You know, forget it. He never was. Somewhere in his
family tree goes all the way back to Bishop Odo,
who's the cousin of William the Conqueror. So actually he
is of a Norman line, is of a normal noble family.
What happens though, is that his mum ends up getting
married twice, which is quite common. So the last person
prior to his dad was a guy called Steve and O'Malley.
So you're looking for the male or o'marley family, they are,
as it were, his step family. So he's got quite
a few brothers, quite a few sisters, some of which
are actually characters that appear in his retinue. So he
was obviously supported by some members of his family. Most
of the land of the properties he ends up on
have some connection somewhere down the line to the O'Malley's.
But when the last O'Malley dies, who is the father
of all his brothers and sisters, his mum gets married again,
but to a forester, because in those days it just
wasn't right for you to be a single, you know, woman.
You know, you couldn't really own property or inherit in
the same way you can now. And it's the forester
who then fathers him and his sister. So it's an
interesting family tree, which is I'm going to put plug in.
It's in here, you know. Yeah, it's all in the book.
We've got it in there.
Speaker 2: So did he I mean he obviously then had a
quite quite privileged or bring in or certainly from a
family that could obviously look after him because obviously mortality
rates were very high work especially for children. Yeah, right
through the I mean we're just coming out the dark edges,
aren't we really.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, there's a nice little twist actually in his
early days because everybody goes, oh, yes, you know Robin
of Sherwood and it's all about Nottingham and all that rubbish,
absolute rubbish, because he actually gets adopted as a page
by the Earls of Chester. Okay, so actually most of
his childhood, certainly right up to him being sixteen, he
was actually in the active service of Ranulph, Earl of Chester.
He was one of that particular retinue, which is why
he ends up in early poetry because there does this
quote in per Plowman, which is one of the oldest
medieval references to Robin. And it's this guy who says,
you know, I can't basically recite you know, church paton Oustra,
I can't do that, but I can tell you all
about the legends of Ranulph furl of Chester and Robin Hood.
So you then you think, oh, ing on a minute, Well,
if that's the earliest quote, why are those two characters
push together. Well, the reason is basically that's where Robin
grew up. He grew up in Chester. Another little twist
for you as well, This is quite good because it's
not in the book. If you have a look at
a medieval map, because there are medieval maps of Chester,
the walled town down at the bottom of the map,
very often you can see the road coming out of
the lower Gate and then crossing the d bridge and
over the de Bridge. It is a little village. Now
the little village is important because all over the lands
owned by the Earls of Chester you get villages called Locksley,
and this little village only very recently came up in documents.
Chester Historical Society found them. That's another locks right, So
wherever you find.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a name which is associated with him, isn't it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, Robin of Locksley. Well, the Locksley they're talking about.
I mean this, this really nails it for me, was
at the time when the Earls of Chester were building
Chartley Castle. Chartley Castle is actually next door to Locksley.
That's like the nearest village, which is next door to Tutbury,
which is where Friar Tuck comes from, which is next
door to Doveridge, which is where the church that Robin
allegedly marries Marion is. So you basically got one, two,
three for all in a great straight line like that.
And they're just below that, which I think is really
great is Abbot's Bromley, which is where the Marmion family
owned all the lands and the churches, et cetera. Well,
she's not made Marion, She's made Marmion. That's a real
medieval name and when when you do that, the geography
is just incredible. You know, there's nowhere else in Britain
that quite nails it just like that.
Speaker 2: You know, So was he when he's sort of grown up? Then?
Was he? Was he a sort of haired sword as such?
Or was he? Because obviously the legend is that he
went to live in the woods with his merried men,
who you know, I'd like to know more about. And
obviously we've no established who made Marion really is. Obviously
the story is that he disappears off into the woods
and starts robbing, robbing rich people and stagecoaches and everything else.
I mean, what, what's the actual what's the actual truth then,
because it's pretty obvious from what you've told me already
that actually the legend is somewhat sort of different to
the actual.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's it's loosely based. As I said, there's there's
a big, big wedge of truth running through it. But
you've just got to try and fit that into reality
because in terms of it being romanticized, you know, it's
been dragged out of all possible realistic resemblance. You know.
But yeah, he appears when he was sixteen. I think
he went off to He went off to some event
that was taking place at York, and basically there were
some tough guys, some ruffians there. I think there was
about a dozen of them, and they set about Robin.
They decided they didn't like the look of him, and
they were going to basically beat him up and throw
him out of the city. But in the process of
doing that, they had banked on the fact that he
was noble, and he knew how to use the sword,
and he knew how to defend himself. And basically he
kills one or two of this group of lads so
over in York, I mean, obviously that's a different administration
and a different set of people. They decided they're going
to set out to get him one way or another,
by ucre, by crook, and that seems to be what
drives him and one or two other members of his
family into the woods. They, you know, really embraced the
forester lifestyle, which is not just Sherwood, it's all the forests,
because there were quite a few either side of the
Roman Great North Road. It's the a one basically, so
you can start lower down at Sherwood, but it goes
all the way up. It goes right the way up
into South Yorkshire. You know, his base appears to be
in a piece of woodland referred to as Barnesdale, and
Barnsdale is right on that border. That's where he seems
to have positioned himself. And it's at this point as well,
it's worth mentioning he's not stealing from the rich to
give to the poor. What he's actually doing, and this
is where it gets really clever, is he's stealing from
the rich to give back to the rich. Because what
he's actually doing, okay, is he's basically doing the right thing.
So he will steal, he'll take back if they've had
too many taxes or they're trying to pull a fiddle,
you know, or they're double charging or you know, whatever
they're trying to pull. He basically takes that money off
them and then does something with it that really makes
some eye look like idiots or fools or you know,
shows up some kind of you know, illegal activity or
whatever they do. They absolutely hated him in York, especially
the religious establishment, because he was always pinching stuff off
then because he nicked some money off them on one occasion,
there's this thing about this this night that he he
has become indebted to the Abbot at York. So when
the Abbot collects all his taxes, Robin steals that money
and then goes and bails this night out, basically pays
the debt off, and then everybody walks away laughing because
obviously it's the Abbot's own money that she'd been used
to pay the debt, which was fraudulent, fraudulent in the
first place, and there's a lot of that, you know,
in the original tales. It was a great way I
think of the ordinary man, you know, poking fun at
figures of authority. You know, that's what that was the
whole point of the tales, you know.
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, so how it is, okay, So let's then
talk about the merry men, because obviously there are again
the sort of synonymous yeah Hollywood especially, I mean you
mentioned Frier, talk Will Scarlet. I'm trying to remember now
the ones off the top of me head, Little John,
little Alan Adale.
Speaker 3: Well, it's it's interesting. Actually, Alan's a good place to start,
because he's the only one that doesn't really belong there.
What seems to have happened is that he was a minstrel.
He was a roving minstrel that was based in France.
So what they did was they added him into some
of the stories so that he became the storyteller. So
I'm afraid if you've ever watched the Disney thing, you know,
with a little chicken with his banjo, you know, and
what have you. Sorry, he's not there. I know, he's
one of my favorite characters, you know, but no, he's
not in the original stories. It's interesting because for some
time Robin seems to have spent time in Staffordshire and
one of his family's main buildings, one of their manor houses,
was near Leak, and that seems to be where Little
John comes into play. His real name. I think he's
John Little, So they swap it around as a bit
of a joke, and that's where Robin first meets him.
But then later in life meets him again when he's
not so little, you know, and you get this kind
of tussle with them over a bridge, you know, where
they try to knock knock each other off the bridge.
Speaker 2: Well, so is that actually true that I was gonna
ask you about that? Is that?
Speaker 3: Well, you could take it at take it at face value.
It's in all the stories, you know. It goes right
the way back to the oldest ones. Will Scarlet's an
interesting one because there's two of them. There's one called
Scarlet and one called Scathelock, and it appears that they
certainly Will Scarlet might actually be an O'Malley, he might
be one member of his of his family. And the
scathe Lock one it means a lot smasher means somebody
that breaks locks and can can access buildings, so that
has some basis as well, in sort of in truth,
Friar Tuck's great because Tutbury used to be called Titbury,
so it's quite good that they changed his name to Tuck.
Although Lise, we'd never got away with that, at least
not in an interview. So yeah, and then there's lots
of other characters. There's there's a Pounder who was a
guy that made food. There's the Pinner of Wakefield who
made clothes. There's a fletcher who produces the bows and arrows.
What's really interesting, there's a play written by a poet
called Skelton, and he wrote this play for Henry the eight. Now,
Henry the Eighth is not renowned for being tolerant of
people that make a mess of things. You know, it's
off with their heads. That's the Henry the Eighth thing.
So Skelton decides he's going to write, you know, the
complete history of Robin Hood, and he disappears into the
libraries that are owned by Henry the Eighth. And what's
fantastic is when he produces the play, he lists all
the locations that he can find, and he lists all
the characters that he can find. So geographically, all of
those characters are Northern based. They're from places like Wakefield
and Macclesfield and Nottingham and Chester, and you know, the
list is quite incredible. Now, the best part of it is,
of course he's writing for Henry, so he's got to
get it right. And the second thing is the library
that he's using disappears after the dissolusion of the monasteries,
so he's a really really important source. You know, it's
full of twaddle as well. I mean he embellishes it
and you know he kind of bigs it up for Henry.
You know, but everybody, everybody in the fifteen hundreds knew
the story. You know, if you didn't get the story right,
you'd be booed off, you know, and we forget that,
we forget that in the past people wanted that foundational
consistency that only disappears with the Victorians. You know that
they invented fiction and fantasy, so they weren't too bothered.
Speaker 2: Yeah. So yeah, I mean the Victorians started to embellish things,
didn't they. Yeah, change the stories and so on. So
up until up until the eighth time, what they were
talking about and the players and everything were probably fairly
accurate based on the records they had.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, going back, I mean, the earliest references we've
got from the thirteen hundreds and then you sort of
hit these things coming up in the fifteen hundreds. You've
got two hundred year period there where really the whole
legend is established, embellish, developed, et cetera, but still basically right.
You know, they're changing the wording, they're changing the language
and things like that, but they don't change the basic
plots and the basic characters. One of the things interesting
that came out of the list actually is the idea
that you know, Robinhood wears Lincoln Green. So the idea
is that you know, all this stuff's died green somewhere
in Lincolnshire. It's not true because in the original it's
actually Cumbrian Green. So the guy that's producing all the
cloth for them and all the rest of it actually
lives over in Cumbria, which is this. It's it's on
territory owned by this lady called Lady Durga Vila who's
almost unpronounceable, and she's actually part of the Earls of
Chester's retinue. She's a there's an interesting thing. Yeah, her
coat of arms is a lion rampant, you know, one
of these gurr you know, that kind of lion, and
Richard the Lionheart has a black one going girr, you know.
And when you start looking at the people immediately around
Robin and especially the Earls of Chester, they've all got
the same single lion doing that on the shield and
what it seems to be the colors are all different, obviously,
but it's like this is the club badge for people
supporting Richard the Lionheart. He has it, he has a
single lion, and then everybody else decides they want it
as well, so he awards it.
Speaker 2: It's like a badge of likeluah it is.
Speaker 3: So it's all was like a sub order of templars.
It's the order of the Lion.
Speaker 2: You know, where did the temples come into it? Then?
Mark ause you mentioned.
Speaker 3: That, Well, great story. You're gonna love this because this
is a fab story. You can imagine this, you know.
Speaker 2: Before we go into the temples, can just ask about
two other characters? Yeah, go on, yeah, yeah, the niggling
a way obviously mentioned Mad Marion, yes for a different
different pronunciation of but also Guy of Gisbon there was
was he?
Speaker 3: Was?
Speaker 2: He a real character?
Speaker 3: Yes, you can find him from Was he from Gisbon? Well,
I'll tell I'll tell you who he is. He's a
distant cousin of Robin and he's got a fabulous story.
I mean, we could be all night just on him.
But he he basically can trace him back to the
lowlands of Scotland. So you know, the o'malis were all
over the place. You know, they were at Robinhood's Bain
Whitby for example. There's some good stories over there. But
we be here all night again. But that's kind of
where that is. So you move up that coast, you
get into the Guy of Gismond territory. But he decides
he's basically going to get the bounty that is on
Robin's head, you know, earn a few bob, but take
out one of the family competitors at the same time.
So there really is no love lost between between Guy
and Robin. And Guy at the end of the day,
he's a Scottish mercenary, that's what he is, you know.
And they have a Scottish style duel contest between the
two of them in the original story, and Robin wins
in the end and does really nasty, unspeakable things to
Guy's body. In the original story, Robin is really brutal,
you know, he's really quite brutal in the original tales. So, okay, templars,
you're asking me about templars.
Speaker 2: Yeah, just just one other Oh go on, Yeah, because
you mentioned the sheriff. You mentioned Sheriff's of Nottingham, So
I mean, is the one sheriff of Nottingham that's involved the.
Speaker 3: Numerous there's numerous. I mean, you've got to be honest.
The average sheriff lasts about two years, so you know,
if you're lucky, they'll last for six. But what is
interesting is what I tried to do was get hold
of if you go in search of all the original stories.
By the way, Robin is a great one to sort
of put your teeth on, because there aren't that many.
There's I think in total separate original tales. I think
there's nine. There's nine of them, And in terms of documentation,
there's only one surviving version of most of them, and
in some cases two or three. So you're only dealing
with a very small body of source material. And if
you go back to that source material, what you can
kind of do is you can kind of shuffle it
into order, because you know, some of it happens when
he's young, some of it clearly happens when he's older.
You know, you can sort of make a callin out
of it date order. And at various times in those stories,
different sheriffs of Nottingham get killed. One gets shot by
little John, he gets shot with a bow and arrow.
Robin kills another one by a sword, and I think
I'm right in saying he also kills another one with
a bow and arrow. So you can see these guys
getting bumped off. Now, what is just incredible. This only
happened towards the end of writing the book. As soon
as you put in the list of sheriff of Nottingham's
it becomes really obvious that at certain points the sheriffs
get killed off, and the ones that get killed off
support the wicked King John, and the ones that survive
support Richard the lion Heart. And guess what, when you
put them into the calendar, the reconstructed series of stories,
they just fall in exactly where you would expect them to.
So we're forensically, you know, documentary forensics here, we're beyond
the possible of that being a coincidence. I mean, the sheriffs,
the list of sheriffs have all come from historical documents
done by the Nottingham Historic Society over the years, you know,
hundreds of years in fact, so they're fairly well established.
And the stories themselves, the original documents are limited, so
you've only got a certain number of those to go at.
So it's not difficult to push the two together and
then to immediately see how this thing plays out.
Speaker 2: Yes, it falls into chronological order.
Speaker 3: And it plays nicely into the templars as well, because
Richard the Lionhart is himself a templar.
Speaker 2: Right, okay, so who were the templars then?
Speaker 3: Okay, Knights Templar are warrior monks. They are incredibly powerful.
They started off in Jerusalem on the First Crusade and
they are basically set up with the idea of protecting
pilgrims and Christianity in general from external attacks. Let's say
they don't always stay in the Holy Land, because eventually
they spread out right across Europe and Britain and some
people say parts of the world, which is not out
of order, because basically these guys are coming out of
the Viking era. So whatever the Vikings could do, they
could do as well, except the invented the travelers check
and got incredibly rich, so you know, made a lot
of enemies in royalty because they were actually better landowners
and richer than royalty, and of course controlled a lot
of the nobility of Europe, including Richard the Lionheart, who
joined the Order, and we've got documentary evidence that he
was part of that order. But the reason why Robin's
interesting is that he starts off officially as a forester,
so he's in the Order of Foresters. That's what he's
a part of. So I'll tell you the story anyway.
You'll love this. It's a famous one. He's walking through
his forest one day and he sees a bunch of
strangers he's never seen before, and this big guy standing
at the front of this group, who is obviously the
bloking ar. So good old Robin walks over to this
guy and he says, oh, what are you doing in
my forest? So this big guy turns around, looks at
this little forest to go and he goes, what do
you mean your forest? This is my forest, and Robin goes, no,
it's not, and I can prove it. This is my forest.
And the other guy goes, no, it's my forest, and
I can prove it. Now you know where this is going.
It finishes up with this big guy and this little
guy having a massive bust up. They're on the floor
punching each other, and the rest of this big guy's
retinue then all Robin off and pick up this big guy.
The big guy dosts himself off, obviously, texts his cloak
off and having low behold it's Richard to flipping lion Heart,
and of course it's his forest. And Robin has decided
he's going to beat the living daylights out of the
king because he's defending the king's forest. Right now, Richard's
not stupid at this point, and he realizes that he's
dealing with a really clever guy here with Robin, who
clearly knows what he's doing in all the rest of it.
So that's the point at which Richard then basically knights Robin, says, okay,
you can join the Templars. You're basically only doing the
job I asked you to do. You know, I don't
care that you beat me up. That's irrelevant. You're just
doing what I asked you to do, so you know,
and he gets raised, if you like. So for the
rest of Robin's life after that point, he's a noble
templar appointed by Richard the Lionheart. So that story has
it's important. It happens in fact, because we know from
the journals that Richard the Lionheart kept that he was
in Nottingham. We know exactly which year it was. I
think I might saying it's eleven ninety six, but I'm
not even looking that one up. But it's somewhere in
that year that it happens. So we can pin that.
We can actually pin that in Robin's life, we know
exactly when that happened, and sure enough, things do change
for Robin after that point. He also is given the
royal assent, the royal right then to marry made Marmion
because she's a maid of a noble family. And up
to that point he's just a scruffy forester. You know,
Now he's not. Now he's now he's clearly he's become
a knight. So it kind of it smooths everything out.
It oils the wheels for everything that happens from that
point on. So it's a really important turning point that one.
Speaker 2: And what family was made Mariam from.
Speaker 3: It's the mark, it's the Marmion family that that is
the family name. How it became Marion, we're not sure,
because she's not she's not actually called Marion. In a
lot of the early legends, she's referred to as Clorinda.
But we think Clorinda could be either a French name
in the French stories, or possibly a pet name, so
you know, it could just be a nickname. It could
be what she was known as. Because Hoad or ode
as much as hoade becomes Hood, which in a sense
becomes a nickname, So his name wasn't really Hood. What
he did was he chose the only available unused name
can name in his family tree, and that was Bishop Odo,
So he became Robin Odo, which became Robin Ode yeah,
which then eventually, yeah, over hundreds of years, ends up
developing into the wood we have today. So were something
very similar to that is happening with made Marmion. And
the fact that they were married at Doverridge is interesting
because that brings together Tutbury and Friar Tuck. It brings
together the fact that the wicked King John rebelled against
the pope, so all the buildings were shut, so he
had to get married under the oak tree outside the
church because the church was shut. And you can identify
Roger of Tutbury, who is Friar Tuck who marries them,
and you know it kind of and that they have
children as well, so you can start to build the
family tree. Then after Robin you can see where that's going.
So that again, that's another turning point, the whole thing
with Doverridge and him getting married after he'd become an eye,
so you know, it all fits.
Speaker 2: How many children did he have doing on.
Speaker 3: I'm pretty sure he ends up producing two sons and
a daughter. And what's interesting is he has at least
one son and at least a daughter before he actually
gets married, which in medieval times for the nobility is
normal because while you're functioning as a noble knight, the
idea is that you worship your lady from afar and
as long as you're not married, it's all you know,
it's all about chivalry and chastity and romance. And you know,
I'm pretty sure we are. We're in the same boat today.
You know, as soon as you married somebody, you know,
the whole lot just goes to hell in a speedboat.
You know, everyone kind of forgets about it. You know,
birth is Christmas and all that gone. Forget it because
you're living in the same house. I'd imagine it's pretty
much the same, you know, in medieval times. So they
wanted the romance to carry on, and they only get
sort of married fairly late in life and then they
have another son. But at least it means the children
can then inherit, you know, the heerit everything under medieval law.
Speaker 2: So how the sort of modern can can you trace
the children and their children and so on?
Speaker 3: Well, this is where it gets really interesting because Robin,
the dad, Robin hood and at least one of his
sons is recorded as being a defender when the castle
is attacked at Wakefield, so we know that he's still
around at that point, and then sows his son, so
that kind of takes you through the eleven hundreds, and
then his son obviously carries on, and then you've got
this story, a really strange one that comes in much
later on. Sounds very much like the familiar Robin Hood story,
but it's set much later. It's set in the time
of the Edwards, and it's set in the twelve hundreds,
and you start to look at that, and certain other authors,
who again will remain nameless, have decided that that's where
robin Hood belongs, that's where it begins. But the thing
is vack. In medieval times you always called your eldest
son by the same name after yourself, so actually that's
another son. We're dealing with. Another son there, an older
ancestry if you like, of the original Robin. I mean,
the way Robin goes out at the end is quite
interesting as well, because there's probably a pretty good chance
that after he'd retired, because he retires to a monastery,
decides he doesn't want to carry on anymore, dismisses his
band of merry men, you know, and he becomes a hermit,
lives in a hermit cave. But then he gets called
back into service again. You're not gonna believe this, because
they're having trouble with a wicked King John, so they
call him back into service. And there's a pretty good
ninety nine percent possibility he was a running meed for
the signing of Magna Carta in twelve fifteen. So as
I said, he's way into his eighties. He's probably eighty
eight eighty nine at that point. And certainly because the
nobles of Chester and the noble families of this area
were there at that time, that are people named who's
retinue he would almost certainly have been part of. And
it was the templars basically that grabbed hold of King
John and when you're gonna sign, mate, you're going to sign,
you know. So he would have been intimately involved with
all of that, and that's probably the last thing he
did before he passed away.
Speaker 4: Because it was obviously it was the nobles, wasn't it
who who basically said, look, you either signed, they saw,
and you're on your bike and will will rise up
against your sort of thing against.
Speaker 3: Yeah, the nobles, Yeah, the Norman nobles. Basically they they
just had enough.
Speaker 2: Yeah, John King, wasn't he immense? I mean he lost
such so much land in France and he was rubbish, absolutelysaster.
I mean there's been plenty of disasters, hasn't.
Speaker 3: Yeah, but he was. He was a bad one. I
mean some people think he had a bad rap because
basically Richard the line Art was only in this try
for about six or eight months in his entire reign,
and he basically dumped all the tax collecting on his
brother John. So I mean, nobody loves a tax collector.
It's you know, it's the same today. And when he
became a king, you know he was he was just
not liked at all, and you know, the Magnets absolutely
didn't like him one bit.
Speaker 2: So do we know what Robin died of? Was he?
I mean did he die of old age?
Speaker 3: Well you've you've got this arrow into.
Speaker 2: The lands burying me. You know.
Speaker 3: Well, that's one of them stories that just falls apart
under scrutiny because because the idea is that this this
guy called Red Red Roger buys off the abbot Abbotess,
sorry abbess buys her off and gets her to to
bleed the elderly Robin for his own good. There he
is dying, you know, he's losing loads and loads of blood.
You can just imagine him sitting up in bed, grabbing
all of one hundred and six pound drawway you bow,
you know, firing an arrow six hundred and sixty six yards. No, no,
I'm sorry, I'm not buying that at all. The whole
thing falls apart and his burial site. I mean, I
won't go into too much detail, but his burial site
is completely wrong. So what I would do is I'd
track back back to me historical sources and have a
look at what his last words are in the play
by Skelton, because Skelton quotes his last words from earlier sources,
and his last words are basically, I would like to
be buried in Wakefield Abbey under the abbey walls. Right now.
I'm an archaeologist, soya, hey, I know we're Robin's buried.
Now let's go and have a look. So you dive
in and you have a look at Wakefield, and much
to your disappointment, there's no abbey. So you think right,
that's it. That's blown it, except for the main what
is now the main sort of cathedral church in the center.
They started to tear up the floor to put in
central heating, and guess what they found a late nine
teen nineties they found the foundations of the earlier abbey
and then they hit skeletons. So there's actual archaeology for
medieval skeletons coming out of the abbey at Wakefield. Now,
I did a documentary version of this quite a long
time ago, filmed one. It's out on YouTube, and most
people miss missed the little subtlety at the end because
I'm standing there on the brand new floor, you know,
in this really polished, shiny bit of the bit of
the abbey, and you know, it looks fantastic and all
the rest of it, and I'm leaning on a table
and I'm chatting to the camera and I'm saying, so
somewhere bill over the floor at this point is where
the body of Robin will be. He'll be buried somewhere
up against the walls. You know. They obviously didn't go
down deep enough to find him, but they found a
few other bodies, you know, and he's under here and
then I sort of stand up and I walk out
of the church. And the last shot is this table
that they put in as an altar, and it's a
giant temple across. That's what it is. So somebody somewhere
knows a little bit more than they're saying. I'm going
to leave it at that. Okay, somebody somewhere didn't didn't
put this socky, great, big solidwood table in on that
spot by accident. They didn't do it, you know what
I'm saying.
Speaker 2: Getting very sort of Indiana. Johnes at his point.
Speaker 3: Oh, it really is. It's in the book, but I've
put in it's Oxford Archaeology that did the excavation, so
I put all their report materials stuff in at the end.
But you know, it's it's so it's. The guy used
to run the Robbin Hoood Appreciation Society in America gave
us a review and the book came out, and he's
big in the Robinhood world, and he basically we sent
him a compliment to copy and he wrote a review
for us, and the gist of it is right at
the very end, he says, this is the best book
on Robin Hood ever written. So I was like, I
don't care if nobody buys it. That will do for me.
That's good enough for me.
Speaker 2: So really, everything that we know, thank to Hollywood various
BBC productions over the years, is fairly way off.
Speaker 3: The word i'd use, I think is well massaged. You know.
It's It's funny because I was writing this at the
same time as I think it was. Brookeeimer was doing
his take on Robin Hood, you know, with Kate Blanchett
and all that sort of thing, a lot grittier than
the Kevin Costner one and all the rest of it.
I love the Costner one. I'm sorry, I don't care
what anybody says. I know he didn't have an American accent,
you know, he had a Yorkshire accent. But you know,
you know I'm going to cut out his heart with
a spoon, you know, Alan Rickman, I can't. He saves
the film, you know, you can't fault it anyway. And
a lot of that, and a lot of the brook
Armor one is based on the early surviving manuscripts, so
it's it's not all complete twaddle. Yes, Hollywood's you know,
glossed it and all that, like you would expect, but
there is some there is some gritty truth in it.
There really is. It's down to the reader to dig.
You know. It's definitely one of those things where you've
you've really got to dig. I think I explained in
the book as well. You know, if you if you
look carefully, I do this thing at the beginning. It's
a bit of nonsense where I say, in a Robin
Hood comes out of his big stonecastle, walks across his drawbridge,
jumps in his sports car, throws his flint lock musket
on the back seat, you know, polishes his shiny armor,
you know, puts his earphones in and drives off. Well,
in what I've just said there, the only thing he
could possibly have done in real life is none of them,
because none of those things existed, you know, in eleven
thirty when he was born. So by a process of
you know, intellectual elimination and historical elimination, pretty much, you
can take out you know, the wood for the trees.
You can do it, yeah, you can. You can get
rid of the rubbish because some things just could not
have happened, you know, it's not possible. And that's really
what the book does. It takes you back to the
roots back to the original story. The biggest reveal for
me was the whole connection to Chester, and that's there.
It's there at the beginning. You know, there's there's some
really nice, you know, wow moments in the beginning of
the book.
Speaker 2: That's fantastic. So there is actually a link, isn't there
with the other book that I want to talk to
you about, The Green Man, because you mentioned a carriage
called Jack in the Green. Yeah, so it is this.
Do some people think that this is robin Hood as well?
Speaker 3: Yeah, Basically folklorists quote unquote they've connected Jack in the
Green and Hook and all the legends of the forests,
they've connected that to robin Hood. Now, on the one hand,
it's like a massive jump to the left because what
they've done is they've they've taken all of that folklore
and made it a part of the robin Hood corpus,
which to some extent you could argue it never was.
I'm not saying that what they're saying is right or wrong,
but some of it is made up. If you pumped
into a medieval guy, you know, in twelve hundred and
you started talking about fairies and elves and goblins and this, that,
and the other that you wouldn't have a clue what
the hell you were talking about. Absolutely would not know
at all what you were going on about.
Speaker 2: And I would know what the green man was though,
wouldn't they.
Speaker 3: Well, this is where it gets interesting, because then you
take a jump to the right, you go the other
way and you end up. Yeah, you could make a
song out of this. It'd be quite popular, wasn't it.
And then you're back in Robinhood territory again and the key,
the key to it all forister and he's wearing green.
Now this is where the link actually becomes tangible. Anybody
anywhere who was a forester had the right, the medieval
right to wear clothing that was dyed using acetic acid
and copper, which basically turned it green. Must have stank
because of acetic acid back then was we wei, so
using we wei and copper, but it dyes all your
clothing green. So that's where you're getting the green from.
And the symbol, the actual i could say, guild symbol
for foresters is the face in the leaves, which you've
got as much right then to put that on your castles,
on your churches, you know, anywhere you like on your houses.
If you're a forester, you can use that symbol because
that is your guild symbol. Which is why in some
churches you find things like, you know, boots for bootmakers
and tiles for tilers, and you know all the rest
of it, whatever their guild symbol was, Masonic or otherwise,
because you'll find some of the guilds are pseudo Masonic,
some are not. But you find the guild symbols everywhere. Well,
in areas where major churches and major chapels are inside forests,
especially the wrong royal hunting forests, you get green men,
and in some case you get tons and tons of them.
So that really is where folk law, modern folk law,
and true medieval medievalist stuff collides. And it does collide
with the subject of robin Hood, but it goes back
a lot further than that. I mean, now we're dealing
with I've got a copy. Here's what I made earlier.
This is the green Man. So this is the other
book you want to grab hold of. This partners very
well with the robin Hood book, actually, and it does
answer a lot of the questions about the green Man.
The green Man goes back an enormously long way, and
it's Celtic, and it's European and British. It's a very
British thing. Copper. I'll tell you. I'll tell you a
little story about how I came to realize how all
these different bits fit together. A bit sort of off
piece of this, but you'll get where I'm coming from.
They found ot see the iceman frozen, this frozen body
up in the Alps, Austrian Alps, and he's about three thousand,
three hundred BC, maybe the most three thousand, six hundred,
but let's call him three thousand, three hundred's bronze age.
He's carrying a copper axe, and he's got tattoos. So
he's got these little markings all over him that seem
to have something to do with the problems he's having
with his joints. So if he's got rheumatism anywhere, they
seem to tattoo him with this hot charcoal. You know,
it's some kind of heat treatment. Before the Chinese were
doing it, you know, it's some kind of acupuncture thing.
But anyway, he's got tattoos, he's got an equal arm
cross on the inside of his right knee, and he's
got another one on his left ankle, so that gives
you that the solar cross of the Bronze Age. And
it's like, I say, he's carrying this copper axe that's
completely useless. You couldn't do anything with it. It's just
like the latest mobile phone, you know, it's just bling.
That's all it is. Bling. So what they decide to
do over here, the British Museum has got Lindo Man.
Now Lindo Man is a bit more recent than that.
He's kind of round about two hundred and thirty a
d give or take fifty years either way. That's the
carbon date for him. So he's but he's British and
he's a bog body. So he's been preserved very much
in the same way as Otsy has. So all this
information about Otsy started coming out in the nineteen nineties,
so the British Museum thought, I'll tell you what not
to be outdone, We're gonna have a look at Lindo Mann.
So they get get Lindo Man. They got all over
him trying to find out whether or not he's got
any tattoos, because he has a sacrifice victim from Lindo
moss In cheshire next to one of the edge, which
is a giant copper mine.
Speaker 2: And he's got a.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and he had a thing tied around his arm,
a fox fox surfer strapped round there. Basically, well, he
was where it gets bad. They strangled him. In the
process of doing that, they broke a couple of his ribs.
Then they smacked him on the head and stabbed him
in the jugular vein at the same time. It's called
the triple deaths, three ways to die. And then they
sent him through the black peaty water into the Celtic
other world. He could be a messenger, you know, he
could be a messenger to the god saying please save
us from the nasty Romans. Or he could actually have
been a bad debtor because you could borrow money as
a celt against your own life so your family would survive,
your tribe had survived, you'd live great, luxuriously for like
a year, but you died at the end of it
because you had to pay it back in the next life. Okay,
two different views, two different ways of looking at it. Anyway,
they go all over the domain and they don't find
any tattoos. But what they do do in the process
of analyzing his skin is they established that when that
sacrifice took place, he was painted from head to foot
in copper. Wow, so he's got this either mud paint
or he's got actual ground up powdered copper all over him. Yes,
because it would have oxidized even though it was gold
when they melted it, when they ground it up when
they painted it on him, it would have literally stained
him green.
Speaker 2: Correct.
Speaker 3: So all of a sudden, here in Cheshire we have
a green man. It's the world's first ever recorded direct
link to a man painted green being sacrificed and sent
into the land in the Celtic Way. Now, as soon
as I found that out, because it's in a really
obscure little report you know, that came out in an
archaeology journal in nineteen ninety four. As soon as I
found that out, I thought, well, they have it. There's
the link, the idea that you can have this skin
of green and somehow be linked, you know, in one direction,
to the sun and copper and the earth and greenery,
you know, and life and all that sort of thing
that takes me in that direction. But in the other
direction also the foresters, they appreciated all that they're dealing
with greenery. They're living out in the sunshine, you know,
that was their belief system. And they were also wearing
a skin of green because their clothing is dyed using copper.
The Normans actually called them verdigers or verderers, which means
green men' that's what they are. So it's a continuum. Now,
the great thing about this little book is it actually
does join the dots, because it does get to a
point where in the Victorian times all this information vanished,
it disappeared, nobody really seemed to be able to put
the dots together. But also in the other direction it goes.
It goes all the way back as far as Babylon.
You've got this god of the woods called Humbarber in
the epic of Gilgamesh, and they're terrified to go in there,
and you know, cut the timber down and cut the
woods down because of the wrath of this god who
is the god of the forest. But then you're in
the you're in the Eastern Bronze Age. You're right at
the birth of you know, coming off farming and clearing woodlands.
So you can see where the thing's got its origins.
You know, seven five hundred BC. You know, so it's
a tremendously tremendously old religion. I tried to get it
in the title as well. People probably don't don't quite
notice this, but it's called let's try and find mind it.
It's called Revealing the Green Man, the restoration of the
oldest religion on planet Earth. So if you want to
know what people believed right through prehistory, it's in the
hotel books. So there you go. So that's Robin. That's
how it gets into Robin, I think is that Robin
was literally a green Man, you know, by profession, he
was a verderer, so that's what he was prior to
becoming a templar.
Speaker 2: Fascinating, So yeah, I mean it's I mean from from
I mean, I've obviously learned the hell of a lot
in the Glass's an well, I mean it's been fascinated Mark,
he really has. The interesting thing is that you mentioned
that Robin Hood was uh a descendant of Bishop Udor,
who was William the Conqueror's brother.
Speaker 3: Yeah, he's not biologically I've just got to put that
qualification in because the O'Malley family they are biological, you know,
they are literal lineal descendants. Yeah, they sound Irish, they do,
but it's O'Malley is a it's French. It's French. So
that that gives you, it gives the clue away. And
all these brothers and sisters are biologically from Odo. But
then when his mum remarries, Robin, as the child of
the remarriage, does not have the right to use the
O'Malley name. He's got to find one from somewhere else.
But at that point he goes, hey, up, nobody's using
nobody's using Odo to have that, I'll have OD. That's
where he gets it from. So he's kind of related
by adoption and by marriage through his month. That's that's
how it works out.
Speaker 2: I mean an often. I mean when I when I
trust my own family. How difficulty is to find records,
especially if you're going back anything eighteenth century backwards. You've
got to have that gateway ancestor. And obviously the records
are still fairly intact, going all the way back what
nine hundred nearough for a thousand years, which is quite amazing, really,
isn't it that the.
Speaker 3: Record was It's because of the royal connection.
Speaker 2: You know, Gateway ancestor isn't it exactly?
Speaker 3: And they were copied again and again and again. And
also hats off to you know, all the researchers that
have you know, tackled it previously, in previous ages. I
basically had the floor covered in books, you know, trying
to piece this together, partly to get rid of the
stuff that clearly wasn't right, because people have tried to
make Robin out to be all kinds of different people.
You know, look who's back there, he goes, trust me,
the tailor isn't mine. So partly to get rid of
all those things, and then partly to actually see what
people had actually come up with. And it does work.
It does work.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I suppose you had to sift through the through
the myths to be able to find you know, the actual,
you know, hard facts that you've talked about.
Speaker 3: Well, it's something similar to what happened with the chronology.
Happened again with the with the family tree. Because it's
funny that one of the children of Stephen O'Malley, one
of them, his name eventually is Red Roger. Red Roger
is the guy accused of trying to kill Robin. Now
that makes perfect sense because they're both about the same age.
They're both from different branches of the same family, but
Robin is the one seemed to be the one that's
not legitimate, so of course Red Roger will want to
get rid of him, you know. So little things like
that again, which to some extent beyond coincidence, you know,
they they drop in. I think the forester's second name
as well was Dared. So howis which is Robin's mum?
Who is the third husband? Is u Dard the forester?
Now that I don't think that's in the book because
I think I discovered that subsequent to writing the book,
so it's worth including that here as well. So you
get these names popping up, and sometimes they just you know,
drop into place.
Speaker 2: And was were they were they Normans? Were the Norman
names then sort of the O'Malley and.
Speaker 3: Yeah, overall, what you could what you could say in
a way is that that there's the noble family of O'Malley.
You know, that's nasty Norman's big castle, shiny armor, all
that nonsense. And then eventually HAIs, you know, on the
third go, marries out of that nobility. She hasn't really
got any choice because she's quite old at this point,
she's obviously carrying tons of baggage, you know, and she
meets this really nice guy. I'd like to think, you know,
she married him out of love, because they must have
been a similar age. When she first married into the
old maalleage, she was quite young, shall we say, in
comparison to the person she married. So when she eventually
marries Hudard, I think he was a proper noble forester.
So you're talking about middle class, working, you know, noble guy.
So you know, they weren't all, you know, living in
castles and this, that and the other. You know, he would
have he might have had a manor house, you know,
somewhere close to the forest, but I don't even think
it would have had a moat round it. You know,
it would just have been, you know, a decent residence.
Speaker 2: So she's fairly well off, Yeah, landing gentry because exactly
the country was carved up, wasn't it by William the conqueror?
And yeah, all his retinue and everything in his nights
and then everything else. They were all given lands and
the Anglo Saxons who owned the land were voted off.
So yeah, if.
Speaker 3: You really want to see that graphically, I have a look
at Doomsday survey because when you see William the Conqueror
Harry in the North, he comes up here in the
ten seventies, beats livid daylights out of everyone. Have a
look at Doomsday because it's the ten eighties, and it'll
say things like, you know, uh Sigwa the Saxon you know,
value was ten shillings now to Bob, you know. And
then it'll have things like Raven Raven, who's clearly a Viking,
you know, value of his estate threepence now ten pounds.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 3: You see all of that going on, and you can
actually graphically see it happening. You know, entire Saxon families
are just obliterated.
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, yeah, interesting. He's my thirty fifth great grandfather
on the mother's side. He's William the Conqueror. So that's
oh gosh, that's why I was yes, So again, getway ancestors.
I think I mentioned the last time. Yeah spoke family
called Watson who we were landowners in West Yorkshire. That's mine,
I get my ancestor.
Speaker 3: Well, mine is the Nobles of Macclesfield, the forest of Macclesfield.
So in the twelve hundreds we were foresters. But the
kind of sting in the tail is that we actually
migrated south from Scotland, so our origins are in the
Western Oils. So we've got no chance of going any
further back than about you know, ten hundred or whatever,
eleven hundred. That's it, because before that you're into Ireland
and the Irish records and nonexistent.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so fourth books? Are they available on in the
usual places?
Speaker 3: There you go, yes, normal, not wishing to miss the
opportunity for an advert that's what you're looking for, don't forget.
It's Robynhwde Amazon, dead simple, go find them on Amazon.
They are slightly different publishers than the publisher I'm using now,
so they're also available in Waterstones. Okay, yeah, so you've
got got no excuse go and support your local books up.
Speaker 2: Fantastic, Thanks Mark. It's been really interesting, completely blonde hinder
part that everything I've thought about Robin Hook was just
sounds like a really interesting character. And I would imagine
you had an awful lot of enjoyment doing your research
into it, because it sounds like you delved into some
pretty interesting records.
Speaker 3: Yeah, if you want to see the total Mayhem that ensued.
Then somewhere out there on YouTube is The Life and
Times of the Real Robin Hood, the documentary and some
of the reenactment sections in that are interesting. And then
if you really want to push it, there's also the
making of Okay, this is about two hours of backstage
footage and that's hilarious, you know, just you know, pull
yourself a very very strong, large cup of tea and
just kick back with that, you know, just.
Speaker 2: The very large, strong lots of whiskey, which I probably
would do. Actually, do you have a YouTube channel logue
at all?
Speaker 3: If you want to get most of my YouTube stuff,
They've got like a sort of a section if you like,
on a site called Drake Michigan. They have you know,
they're hosting if you like my back catalog. But that
again means you can find it independently on YouTube, so
you can also just type me in and track it down.
But last year we went bonkers. I mean, it's taken
eighteen years to get some of this material on. You know,
all of Lost Treasures is out there, all of the outtakes,
the extras, interviews are on there. Then we've got six documentaries.
You know, there's tons, tons of stuff. Last year, we
just put it all out. I just got fed up
with waiting, you know, I need to buy into this
media thing, you know, and get some stuff out there.
So even the latest one, I mean, we did the
Disappear in nine Telegion in twenty nineteen and we never
got that to DVD because of what happened with the
pandemic and all that. That's gone up as well, and
that's one of the best things I've ever produced, So
it's worth going and having for that. Disappearing n into Legion.
Speaker 2: Might be worth having you back on to talk about
that at some point.
Speaker 3: Then yeah, go on, yeah go on, but me for that,
let's do it.
Speaker 2: That'd be brilliant. I've again, as last time, Mark, I
think you probably one of the best guests I've ever
had on because I think you're just superb storyteller and
I think that the stuff you come out with is
just brilliant. I've really enjoyed this evening. It's been a
real eye open for me, and I know that I
had some brilliant feedback last time rhyme. So I just
hope that everybody really, you know, has enjoyed listening to
this as much as I have, because it's just been
just been absolutely amazing, So thank you very much and
I will definitely have you on again at some point.
Speaker 3: Yeah, thanks for having me. I'd be glad to come back.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, it's been brilliant, super thank you so much. Take care.
Speaker 3: As the as the cat gone, Yeah he's wandered off.
He's got bored. Stampy as in stamps, you know what
I mean. He stamps stamps with this they call it.
Was it needing bread? Needing bread yea. And he likes
doing that with his tail as well, you know, whenever
he can like that's it brilliant.
Speaker 2: Well, sir high to stampy for me and I will
do and we'll speak.
Speaker 3: So thanks very much, Mark, thanks for having we take care,
Thank you.
Speaker 2: You can visit my website at www dot Craig Bryant
dot co dot uk.
Speaker 1: Paranormal Pendle will return and remember to keep watching the
shadows