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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Paranormal Pendul podcast, coming to you from

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the hearts of Pendle Witch Country in the northwest of England.

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My name is Craig Bryant, author, investigator and collector of stories.

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Join me as we take a journey into the paranorial

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UFO sightings, cryptozoology and big cats.

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Speaker 2: This is the Paranormal Pendul Podcast. Hello, Welcome to episode

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fifty four half Paranormal Pendules, broadcasting to the Paranorial UK

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network Paukradio dot com. So my guest on this episode

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is a returning guest. It's Mark Colly. Last time Mark

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was on, we chatted about UFOs specifically. It was Hello,

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I warned you.

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Speaker 3: I did say you would put in an appearance there.

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He is, sorry, That's that's really put you off, hasn't it.

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Speaker 2: Cocker Spaniels under mid good job you cat? Actually well yeah,

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so yeah, last time we chatted, we we talked about

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Europe as well talks about UFOs. So today we're gonna

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chat about something a little bit different. We're gonna have

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a chat about two of you books specifically, but they

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are actually quite sort of wide wide ranging subjects, really

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quite big subjects. Revealing the Green man and also the

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life and times of the real Robin Hood. So Mark, welcome,

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thanks for coming back. And Stampy well yeah, well, if

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Stampy wants to chip in at any point, that's fine.

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Speaker 3: Or brother, I think he probably will.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, let's start them with with Robin Hood. Okay, I

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think everybody's got the sort of Hollywood version of Robin

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Hood comes to mind when when you mentioned Robin Hood.

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So you know, swashbuckling, devastatingly good looking Robin from the

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poor to give to the rich. How accurate is that?

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Speaker 3: It's it's got some basis. Okay, he's got some bassis

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in truth. Obviously, there's no smoke without fire as a character.

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A lot of people seem to think that he's pieced

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together from a lot of other different bits and bobs,

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which actually isn't true. You can actually trace him all

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the way back. Certain other writers who shall remain nameless

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got him back as far as sort of the thirteen

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hundreds and then into the twelve hundreds. But actually I

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think the original, original, original, original Robin is in the

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eleven hundreds. I think he goes all the way back

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to that point. I've got to say at the beginning

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that though, you're in for a pretty tough bit of research.

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It took me about four years to get through it

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because very much like you know, when we had the

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Big Crazy with David Beckham, you know, everybody was called David.

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You've got the same thing happening with Robin. You know,

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it starts off as one person and then it just

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balloons and basically, you know, every single person then who

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has that kind of criminal outlook and comes from the

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North of England, you know, et cetera, they all end

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up being referred to as a Robin Hood or a

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Robin Hood's plural. So it does get really difficult. And

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that's course so many people, so many you know, so

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much confusion. The guy I'm looking at was born probably

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in the winter of eleven twenty three, going into sorry, no,

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let's get this right, eleven twenty I very rarely used notes,

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but I'm doing tonight eleven twenty nine into eleven thirty

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in that winter. I think that's probably when he was born.

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And the reason you can work that out is because

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of everything that's happening in the medieval world around that time.

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So once you've got that, once you've got a start date,

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let's call it eleven thirty. Once you've got that as

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a start date, you can then start to move forward.

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The obvious thing then is you know, the Sheriffs of Nottingham,

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they are historical characters. I don't think anyone would argue

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with that.

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Speaker 2: There's a list.

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Speaker 3: There's an actual list which they've got at the castle

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in Nottingham, so they can tell you who was there

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and when. And then the other thing that nobody I

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don't think anybody's going to argue with is what's going

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on historically in the medieval world. So you've got you

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know classic you know Kings coming and going, the Wicked

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King John, you know Richard, the Lion Heart, all those

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kind of characters. You've got two sets of chronology there,

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and if you push them together, this is where it

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gets quite exciting, because I don't think anybody's ever done

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this before. If you push them together and then start

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to string out the life of Robin Hood, all of

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a sudden it all makes sense, especially with the Sheriffs

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of Nottingham, because of course they're specific, so you know,

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all the dates kind of add up. So yeah, I'm

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quite convinced he was a real character. I'm quite convinced

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that in the book we've managed to nail his lifetime

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and probably quite a few of the things he did.

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Speaker 2: So you mentioned that you can sort of you're fairly

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certain about his birthdate or his birthy year because of

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what was going on at the time. Gene elaborate a

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little bit about what was actually happening in England at

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the time.

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Speaker 3: Well, let me make sure I get the right king

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to see, and I'm cheated of it. I'm using my

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own book. Let's get a plug in here. There you go,

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there's the advertate. That's what that's what you need. You

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need that book. Oh the other thing is please note

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it's r O b y n HBDE. We had to

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do that because obviously there's one thousand and one of

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the you know, Robin books spelt the same way, and

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that is actually his name in Old English. So you know, Well,

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the king that you're.

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Speaker 2: Looking for John, wasn't it to begin with?

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Speaker 3: Well, if he starts at the very beginning, eleven hundred

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to eleven thirty five, that's Henry the first. What's interesting

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is given that Robin seems to live to quite an

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old age, because I think he's about eighty five when

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he passes away. He's quite old, eighty five and eighty

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nine somewhere in that sort of bracket.

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Speaker 2: That's an age, isn't it. For that period of time,

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it is.

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Speaker 3: But I mean, the more you learn about him, the

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more you realize he's kind of, you know, the peak

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of physical fitness. Eventually he's a knight. He's a forester.

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You know, he's got everything he needs in a forest.

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You know, he knows how to live. He knows how

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to survive. He's supported by financially and materially by the

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people around him, who later became known as his merry men. Obviously,

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further down the line, it looks like he's not only

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working for King Richard, he's also working for the Knights Templar.

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So there's every reason to believe that he had the

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best life possible, you know. But what I'm coming to

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is it means he basically outlives five kings, right, you know,

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he straddles five of them, which again is where your

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timeline becomes really important, which the book has, you know,

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we try and stick to a timeline. So yeah, a

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few of the other things that's going on. I am

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aware of the fact that the Knight's Templar are actually

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forming officially at this point. You know, it was in

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the early eleven hundreds that they got recognition from the Pope.

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So you know, he's there really right at the beginning

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of the whole history of the Templars and to some

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extent foresters as well. You know, he's not that far

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after the Norman conquest, so the dust is still settling

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on that as well.

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Speaker 2: Henry the First was one of the younger sons of

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William the Conqueror, wasn't he?

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Speaker 3: Yes, he was indeed, in fact.

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Speaker 2: William Rufus, who died without issue, as they say, without children.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, he's the chap that accidentally got shot in the

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New Forest with an arrow in it. Yeah, when it happened, ups, Yeah,

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I think they learned a thing or too off the dad,

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you know, you know, William the Conqueror, Dearing May. Yeah,

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so that's that's the kind of you know that that's

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where he's coming from. That he's born into that and

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he's growing up with the consolidation of that. So I

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think that's also a reason why he's legend preserved has

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been preserved, because you know, he's really there crucial you know,

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crucial point in British history.

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Speaker 2: Was he from a particularly wealthy family then or from

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a sort of sort of a both peasantry, because there

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was there was definite sort of layers of society, wasn't

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there at the time.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. One of the things I came up with which

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which proved the legends not necessarily to be true. The

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later legends always had him as a dispossessed Anglo of Saxon.

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You know, forget it. He never was. Somewhere in his

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family tree goes all the way back to Bishop Odo,

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who's the cousin of William the Conqueror. So actually he

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is of a Norman line, is of a normal noble family.

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What happens though, is that his mum ends up getting

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married twice, which is quite common. So the last person

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prior to his dad was a guy called Steve and O'Malley.

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So you're looking for the male or o'marley family, they are,

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as it were, his step family. So he's got quite

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a few brothers, quite a few sisters, some of which

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are actually characters that appear in his retinue. So he

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was obviously supported by some members of his family. Most

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of the land of the properties he ends up on

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have some connection somewhere down the line to the O'Malley's.

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But when the last O'Malley dies, who is the father

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of all his brothers and sisters, his mum gets married again,

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but to a forester, because in those days it just

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wasn't right for you to be a single, you know, woman.

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You know, you couldn't really own property or inherit in

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the same way you can now. And it's the forester

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who then fathers him and his sister. So it's an

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interesting family tree, which is I'm going to put plug in.

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It's in here, you know. Yeah, it's all in the book.

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We've got it in there.

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Speaker 2: So did he I mean he obviously then had a

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quite quite privileged or bring in or certainly from a

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family that could obviously look after him because obviously mortality

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rates were very high work especially for children. Yeah, right

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through the I mean we're just coming out the dark edges,

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aren't we really.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, there's a nice little twist actually in his

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early days because everybody goes, oh, yes, you know Robin

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of Sherwood and it's all about Nottingham and all that rubbish,

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absolute rubbish, because he actually gets adopted as a page

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by the Earls of Chester. Okay, so actually most of

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his childhood, certainly right up to him being sixteen, he

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was actually in the active service of Ranulph, Earl of Chester.

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He was one of that particular retinue, which is why

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he ends up in early poetry because there does this

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quote in per Plowman, which is one of the oldest

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medieval references to Robin. And it's this guy who says,

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you know, I can't basically recite you know, church paton Oustra,

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I can't do that, but I can tell you all

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about the legends of Ranulph furl of Chester and Robin Hood.

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So you then you think, oh, ing on a minute, Well,

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if that's the earliest quote, why are those two characters

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push together. Well, the reason is basically that's where Robin

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grew up. He grew up in Chester. Another little twist

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for you as well, This is quite good because it's

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not in the book. If you have a look at

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a medieval map, because there are medieval maps of Chester,

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the walled town down at the bottom of the map,

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very often you can see the road coming out of

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the lower Gate and then crossing the d bridge and

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over the de Bridge. It is a little village. Now

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the little village is important because all over the lands

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owned by the Earls of Chester you get villages called Locksley,

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and this little village only very recently came up in documents.

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Chester Historical Society found them. That's another locks right, So

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wherever you find.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a name which is associated with him, isn't it.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, Robin of Locksley. Well, the Locksley they're talking about.

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I mean this, this really nails it for me, was

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at the time when the Earls of Chester were building

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Chartley Castle. Chartley Castle is actually next door to Locksley.

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That's like the nearest village, which is next door to Tutbury,

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which is where Friar Tuck comes from, which is next

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door to Doveridge, which is where the church that Robin

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allegedly marries Marion is. So you basically got one, two,

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three for all in a great straight line like that.

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And they're just below that, which I think is really

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great is Abbot's Bromley, which is where the Marmion family

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owned all the lands and the churches, et cetera. Well,

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she's not made Marion, She's made Marmion. That's a real

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medieval name and when when you do that, the geography

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is just incredible. You know, there's nowhere else in Britain

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that quite nails it just like that.

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Speaker 2: You know, So was he when he's sort of grown up? Then?

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Was he? Was he a sort of haired sword as such?

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Or was he? Because obviously the legend is that he

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went to live in the woods with his merried men,

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who you know, I'd like to know more about. And

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obviously we've no established who made Marion really is. Obviously

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the story is that he disappears off into the woods

238
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and starts robbing, robbing rich people and stagecoaches and everything else.

239
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I mean, what, what's the actual what's the actual truth then,

240
00:14:37,360 --> 00:14:40,320
because it's pretty obvious from what you've told me already

241
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that actually the legend is somewhat sort of different to

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the actual.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's it's loosely based. As I said, there's there's

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a big, big wedge of truth running through it. But

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you've just got to try and fit that into reality

246
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because in terms of it being romanticized, you know, it's

247
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been dragged out of all possible realistic resemblance. You know.

248
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But yeah, he appears when he was sixteen. I think

249
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he went off to He went off to some event

250
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that was taking place at York, and basically there were

251
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some tough guys, some ruffians there. I think there was

252
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about a dozen of them, and they set about Robin.

253
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They decided they didn't like the look of him, and

254
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they were going to basically beat him up and throw

255
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him out of the city. But in the process of

256
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doing that, they had banked on the fact that he

257
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was noble, and he knew how to use the sword,

258
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and he knew how to defend himself. And basically he

259
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kills one or two of this group of lads so

260
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over in York, I mean, obviously that's a different administration

261
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and a different set of people. They decided they're going

262
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to set out to get him one way or another,

263
00:15:44,360 --> 00:15:47,679
by ucre, by crook, and that seems to be what

264
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drives him and one or two other members of his

265
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family into the woods. They, you know, really embraced the

266
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forester lifestyle, which is not just Sherwood, it's all the forests,

267
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because there were quite a few either side of the

268
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Roman Great North Road. It's the a one basically, so

269
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you can start lower down at Sherwood, but it goes

270
00:16:12,000 --> 00:16:13,919
all the way up. It goes right the way up

271
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into South Yorkshire. You know, his base appears to be

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in a piece of woodland referred to as Barnesdale, and

273
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Barnsdale is right on that border. That's where he seems

274
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to have positioned himself. And it's at this point as well,

275
00:16:27,399 --> 00:16:30,480
it's worth mentioning he's not stealing from the rich to

276
00:16:30,519 --> 00:16:33,080
give to the poor. What he's actually doing, and this

277
00:16:33,120 --> 00:16:35,240
is where it gets really clever, is he's stealing from

278
00:16:35,240 --> 00:16:39,200
the rich to give back to the rich. Because what

279
00:16:39,279 --> 00:16:43,720
he's actually doing, okay, is he's basically doing the right thing.

280
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So he will steal, he'll take back if they've had

281
00:16:47,279 --> 00:16:49,799
too many taxes or they're trying to pull a fiddle,

282
00:16:50,159 --> 00:16:53,120
you know, or they're double charging or you know, whatever

283
00:16:53,159 --> 00:16:56,320
they're trying to pull. He basically takes that money off

284
00:16:56,360 --> 00:16:59,679
them and then does something with it that really makes

285
00:16:59,679 --> 00:17:02,639
some eye look like idiots or fools or you know,

286
00:17:02,799 --> 00:17:06,119
shows up some kind of you know, illegal activity or

287
00:17:06,119 --> 00:17:08,839
whatever they do. They absolutely hated him in York, especially

288
00:17:08,920 --> 00:17:12,519
the religious establishment, because he was always pinching stuff off

289
00:17:12,559 --> 00:17:16,279
then because he nicked some money off them on one occasion,

290
00:17:16,279 --> 00:17:19,960
there's this thing about this this night that he he

291
00:17:20,200 --> 00:17:24,240
has become indebted to the Abbot at York. So when

292
00:17:24,319 --> 00:17:27,279
the Abbot collects all his taxes, Robin steals that money

293
00:17:27,680 --> 00:17:30,559
and then goes and bails this night out, basically pays

294
00:17:30,599 --> 00:17:33,319
the debt off, and then everybody walks away laughing because

295
00:17:33,319 --> 00:17:35,599
obviously it's the Abbot's own money that she'd been used

296
00:17:35,599 --> 00:17:38,599
to pay the debt, which was fraudulent, fraudulent in the

297
00:17:38,599 --> 00:17:41,680
first place, and there's a lot of that, you know,

298
00:17:41,759 --> 00:17:44,880
in the original tales. It was a great way I

299
00:17:44,880 --> 00:17:47,799
think of the ordinary man, you know, poking fun at

300
00:17:47,839 --> 00:17:50,720
figures of authority. You know, that's what that was the

301
00:17:50,759 --> 00:17:52,359
whole point of the tales, you know.

302
00:17:55,799 --> 00:17:59,200
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, so how it is, okay, So let's then

303
00:17:59,240 --> 00:18:05,000
talk about the merry men, because obviously there are again

304
00:18:05,599 --> 00:18:11,000
the sort of synonymous yeah Hollywood especially, I mean you

305
00:18:11,039 --> 00:18:14,880
mentioned Frier, talk Will Scarlet. I'm trying to remember now

306
00:18:14,880 --> 00:18:17,960
the ones off the top of me head, Little John,

307
00:18:18,079 --> 00:18:23,359
little Alan Adale.

308
00:18:23,920 --> 00:18:27,279
Speaker 3: Well, it's it's interesting. Actually, Alan's a good place to start,

309
00:18:27,319 --> 00:18:29,799
because he's the only one that doesn't really belong there.

310
00:18:30,279 --> 00:18:32,920
What seems to have happened is that he was a minstrel.

311
00:18:33,039 --> 00:18:37,079
He was a roving minstrel that was based in France.

312
00:18:37,640 --> 00:18:40,119
So what they did was they added him into some

313
00:18:40,240 --> 00:18:44,720
of the stories so that he became the storyteller. So

314
00:18:44,759 --> 00:18:46,880
I'm afraid if you've ever watched the Disney thing, you know,

315
00:18:46,920 --> 00:18:49,160
with a little chicken with his banjo, you know, and

316
00:18:49,200 --> 00:18:51,759
what have you. Sorry, he's not there. I know, he's

317
00:18:51,759 --> 00:18:54,240
one of my favorite characters, you know, but no, he's

318
00:18:54,319 --> 00:18:58,599
not in the original stories. It's interesting because for some

319
00:18:58,759 --> 00:19:03,440
time Robin seems to have spent time in Staffordshire and

320
00:19:03,519 --> 00:19:06,880
one of his family's main buildings, one of their manor houses,

321
00:19:07,039 --> 00:19:10,720
was near Leak, and that seems to be where Little

322
00:19:10,799 --> 00:19:14,000
John comes into play. His real name. I think he's

323
00:19:14,079 --> 00:19:16,599
John Little, So they swap it around as a bit

324
00:19:16,640 --> 00:19:20,640
of a joke, and that's where Robin first meets him.

325
00:19:21,119 --> 00:19:24,480
But then later in life meets him again when he's

326
00:19:24,519 --> 00:19:26,839
not so little, you know, and you get this kind

327
00:19:26,880 --> 00:19:29,039
of tussle with them over a bridge, you know, where

328
00:19:29,039 --> 00:19:31,319
they try to knock knock each other off the bridge.

329
00:19:31,559 --> 00:19:34,200
Speaker 2: Well, so is that actually true that I was gonna

330
00:19:34,200 --> 00:19:35,160
ask you about that? Is that?

331
00:19:35,359 --> 00:19:38,359
Speaker 3: Well, you could take it at take it at face value.

332
00:19:38,480 --> 00:19:40,359
It's in all the stories, you know. It goes right

333
00:19:40,400 --> 00:19:44,880
the way back to the oldest ones. Will Scarlet's an

334
00:19:44,880 --> 00:19:47,960
interesting one because there's two of them. There's one called

335
00:19:48,000 --> 00:19:51,480
Scarlet and one called Scathelock, and it appears that they

336
00:19:52,200 --> 00:19:56,119
certainly Will Scarlet might actually be an O'Malley, he might

337
00:19:56,160 --> 00:19:58,119
be one member of his of his family. And the

338
00:19:58,160 --> 00:20:01,839
scathe Lock one it means a lot smasher means somebody

339
00:20:01,880 --> 00:20:05,440
that breaks locks and can can access buildings, so that

340
00:20:05,519 --> 00:20:08,400
has some basis as well, in sort of in truth,

341
00:20:08,799 --> 00:20:12,440
Friar Tuck's great because Tutbury used to be called Titbury,

342
00:20:12,799 --> 00:20:15,039
so it's quite good that they changed his name to Tuck.

343
00:20:15,680 --> 00:20:19,200
Although Lise, we'd never got away with that, at least

344
00:20:19,200 --> 00:20:23,160
not in an interview. So yeah, and then there's lots

345
00:20:23,160 --> 00:20:27,039
of other characters. There's there's a Pounder who was a

346
00:20:27,039 --> 00:20:30,079
guy that made food. There's the Pinner of Wakefield who

347
00:20:30,079 --> 00:20:34,119
made clothes. There's a fletcher who produces the bows and arrows.

348
00:20:34,319 --> 00:20:38,759
What's really interesting, there's a play written by a poet

349
00:20:38,799 --> 00:20:42,559
called Skelton, and he wrote this play for Henry the eight. Now,

350
00:20:42,640 --> 00:20:45,200
Henry the Eighth is not renowned for being tolerant of

351
00:20:45,240 --> 00:20:47,160
people that make a mess of things. You know, it's

352
00:20:47,440 --> 00:20:49,519
off with their heads. That's the Henry the Eighth thing.

353
00:20:50,000 --> 00:20:52,000
So Skelton decides he's going to write, you know, the

354
00:20:52,039 --> 00:20:55,680
complete history of Robin Hood, and he disappears into the

355
00:20:55,720 --> 00:20:59,160
libraries that are owned by Henry the Eighth. And what's

356
00:20:59,200 --> 00:21:02,720
fantastic is when he produces the play, he lists all

357
00:21:02,759 --> 00:21:06,119
the locations that he can find, and he lists all

358
00:21:06,160 --> 00:21:10,720
the characters that he can find. So geographically, all of

359
00:21:10,759 --> 00:21:15,480
those characters are Northern based. They're from places like Wakefield

360
00:21:15,640 --> 00:21:20,160
and Macclesfield and Nottingham and Chester, and you know, the

361
00:21:20,240 --> 00:21:23,640
list is quite incredible. Now, the best part of it is,

362
00:21:23,680 --> 00:21:25,680
of course he's writing for Henry, so he's got to

363
00:21:25,720 --> 00:21:28,680
get it right. And the second thing is the library

364
00:21:28,680 --> 00:21:32,160
that he's using disappears after the dissolusion of the monasteries,

365
00:21:32,960 --> 00:21:36,839
so he's a really really important source. You know, it's

366
00:21:36,839 --> 00:21:39,039
full of twaddle as well. I mean he embellishes it

367
00:21:39,079 --> 00:21:41,799
and you know he kind of bigs it up for Henry.

368
00:21:41,839 --> 00:21:45,039
You know, but everybody, everybody in the fifteen hundreds knew

369
00:21:45,079 --> 00:21:47,279
the story. You know, if you didn't get the story right,

370
00:21:47,359 --> 00:21:50,519
you'd be booed off, you know, and we forget that,

371
00:21:50,640 --> 00:21:55,079
we forget that in the past people wanted that foundational

372
00:21:55,200 --> 00:21:59,160
consistency that only disappears with the Victorians. You know that

373
00:21:59,240 --> 00:22:03,240
they invented fiction and fantasy, so they weren't too bothered.

374
00:22:03,559 --> 00:22:07,119
Speaker 2: Yeah. So yeah, I mean the Victorians started to embellish things,

375
00:22:07,119 --> 00:22:10,400
didn't they. Yeah, change the stories and so on. So

376
00:22:10,599 --> 00:22:15,680
up until up until the eighth time, what they were

377
00:22:15,720 --> 00:22:18,839
talking about and the players and everything were probably fairly

378
00:22:18,839 --> 00:22:20,559
accurate based on the records they had.

379
00:22:21,079 --> 00:22:23,960
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, going back, I mean, the earliest references we've

380
00:22:23,960 --> 00:22:26,440
got from the thirteen hundreds and then you sort of

381
00:22:26,480 --> 00:22:28,640
hit these things coming up in the fifteen hundreds. You've

382
00:22:28,640 --> 00:22:31,960
got two hundred year period there where really the whole

383
00:22:32,039 --> 00:22:36,799
legend is established, embellish, developed, et cetera, but still basically right.

384
00:22:37,480 --> 00:22:40,279
You know, they're changing the wording, they're changing the language

385
00:22:40,319 --> 00:22:42,960
and things like that, but they don't change the basic

386
00:22:43,039 --> 00:22:45,960
plots and the basic characters. One of the things interesting

387
00:22:45,960 --> 00:22:48,960
that came out of the list actually is the idea

388
00:22:49,039 --> 00:22:52,119
that you know, Robinhood wears Lincoln Green. So the idea

389
00:22:52,160 --> 00:22:54,720
is that you know, all this stuff's died green somewhere

390
00:22:54,720 --> 00:22:57,799
in Lincolnshire. It's not true because in the original it's

391
00:22:57,920 --> 00:23:02,160
actually Cumbrian Green. So the guy that's producing all the

392
00:23:02,200 --> 00:23:03,759
cloth for them and all the rest of it actually

393
00:23:03,839 --> 00:23:08,799
lives over in Cumbria, which is this. It's it's on

394
00:23:08,920 --> 00:23:12,200
territory owned by this lady called Lady Durga Vila who's

395
00:23:12,400 --> 00:23:16,559
almost unpronounceable, and she's actually part of the Earls of

396
00:23:16,640 --> 00:23:22,519
Chester's retinue. She's a there's an interesting thing. Yeah, her

397
00:23:22,559 --> 00:23:25,279
coat of arms is a lion rampant, you know, one

398
00:23:25,319 --> 00:23:27,920
of these gurr you know, that kind of lion, and

399
00:23:28,599 --> 00:23:31,720
Richard the Lionheart has a black one going girr, you know.

400
00:23:32,079 --> 00:23:34,319
And when you start looking at the people immediately around

401
00:23:34,359 --> 00:23:36,680
Robin and especially the Earls of Chester, they've all got

402
00:23:37,039 --> 00:23:40,839
the same single lion doing that on the shield and

403
00:23:40,960 --> 00:23:43,880
what it seems to be the colors are all different, obviously,

404
00:23:43,920 --> 00:23:47,759
but it's like this is the club badge for people

405
00:23:47,839 --> 00:23:51,599
supporting Richard the Lionheart. He has it, he has a

406
00:23:51,640 --> 00:23:54,319
single lion, and then everybody else decides they want it

407
00:23:54,359 --> 00:23:55,920
as well, so he awards it.

408
00:23:56,160 --> 00:23:59,519
Speaker 2: It's like a badge of likeluah it is.

409
00:23:59,559 --> 00:24:02,000
Speaker 3: So it's all was like a sub order of templars.

410
00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:03,240
It's the order of the Lion.

411
00:24:03,559 --> 00:24:06,359
Speaker 2: You know, where did the temples come into it? Then?

412
00:24:06,400 --> 00:24:07,960
Mark ause you mentioned.

413
00:24:07,599 --> 00:24:11,200
Speaker 3: That, Well, great story. You're gonna love this because this

414
00:24:11,279 --> 00:24:13,039
is a fab story. You can imagine this, you know.

415
00:24:13,279 --> 00:24:15,440
Speaker 2: Before we go into the temples, can just ask about

416
00:24:15,440 --> 00:24:18,319
two other characters? Yeah, go on, yeah, yeah, the niggling

417
00:24:18,359 --> 00:24:22,640
a way obviously mentioned Mad Marion, yes for a different

418
00:24:23,359 --> 00:24:29,000
different pronunciation of but also Guy of Gisbon there was

419
00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:29,440
was he?

420
00:24:30,039 --> 00:24:30,119
Speaker 3: Was?

421
00:24:30,160 --> 00:24:31,160
Speaker 2: He a real character?

422
00:24:32,319 --> 00:24:39,680
Speaker 3: Yes, you can find him from Was he from Gisbon? Well,

423
00:24:39,759 --> 00:24:44,119
I'll tell I'll tell you who he is. He's a

424
00:24:44,160 --> 00:24:50,480
distant cousin of Robin and he's got a fabulous story.

425
00:24:50,480 --> 00:24:52,000
I mean, we could be all night just on him.

426
00:24:52,039 --> 00:24:54,799
But he he basically can trace him back to the

427
00:24:54,799 --> 00:24:58,599
lowlands of Scotland. So you know, the o'malis were all

428
00:24:58,640 --> 00:25:00,799
over the place. You know, they were at Robinhood's Bain

429
00:25:00,839 --> 00:25:03,319
Whitby for example. There's some good stories over there. But

430
00:25:03,359 --> 00:25:05,440
we be here all night again. But that's kind of

431
00:25:05,440 --> 00:25:07,519
where that is. So you move up that coast, you

432
00:25:07,559 --> 00:25:11,000
get into the Guy of Gismond territory. But he decides

433
00:25:11,039 --> 00:25:14,200
he's basically going to get the bounty that is on

434
00:25:14,319 --> 00:25:17,119
Robin's head, you know, earn a few bob, but take

435
00:25:17,200 --> 00:25:19,880
out one of the family competitors at the same time.

436
00:25:20,400 --> 00:25:23,799
So there really is no love lost between between Guy

437
00:25:23,960 --> 00:25:26,039
and Robin. And Guy at the end of the day,

438
00:25:26,240 --> 00:25:29,240
he's a Scottish mercenary, that's what he is, you know.

439
00:25:30,119 --> 00:25:34,359
And they have a Scottish style duel contest between the

440
00:25:34,359 --> 00:25:38,480
two of them in the original story, and Robin wins

441
00:25:38,519 --> 00:25:42,000
in the end and does really nasty, unspeakable things to

442
00:25:42,119 --> 00:25:45,960
Guy's body. In the original story, Robin is really brutal,

443
00:25:46,119 --> 00:25:52,720
you know, he's really quite brutal in the original tales. So, okay, templars,

444
00:25:52,759 --> 00:25:54,920
you're asking me about templars.

445
00:25:54,400 --> 00:25:57,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, just just one other Oh go on, Yeah, because

446
00:25:57,480 --> 00:26:02,480
you mentioned the sheriff. You mentioned Sheriff's of Nottingham, So

447
00:26:03,119 --> 00:26:05,599
I mean, is the one sheriff of Nottingham that's involved the.

448
00:26:06,640 --> 00:26:09,720
Speaker 3: Numerous there's numerous. I mean, you've got to be honest.

449
00:26:09,759 --> 00:26:12,880
The average sheriff lasts about two years, so you know,

450
00:26:12,920 --> 00:26:16,279
if you're lucky, they'll last for six. But what is

451
00:26:16,319 --> 00:26:18,599
interesting is what I tried to do was get hold

452
00:26:18,640 --> 00:26:21,440
of if you go in search of all the original stories.

453
00:26:21,599 --> 00:26:24,720
By the way, Robin is a great one to sort

454
00:26:24,720 --> 00:26:28,039
of put your teeth on, because there aren't that many.

455
00:26:28,440 --> 00:26:34,119
There's I think in total separate original tales. I think

456
00:26:34,119 --> 00:26:38,400
there's nine. There's nine of them, And in terms of documentation,

457
00:26:38,519 --> 00:26:41,799
there's only one surviving version of most of them, and

458
00:26:41,880 --> 00:26:44,359
in some cases two or three. So you're only dealing

459
00:26:44,359 --> 00:26:48,240
with a very small body of source material. And if

460
00:26:48,279 --> 00:26:50,920
you go back to that source material, what you can

461
00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:53,119
kind of do is you can kind of shuffle it

462
00:26:53,200 --> 00:26:55,640
into order, because you know, some of it happens when

463
00:26:55,680 --> 00:26:57,680
he's young, some of it clearly happens when he's older.

464
00:26:58,039 --> 00:27:00,359
You know, you can sort of make a callin out

465
00:27:00,400 --> 00:27:03,960
of it date order. And at various times in those stories,

466
00:27:04,640 --> 00:27:08,960
different sheriffs of Nottingham get killed. One gets shot by

467
00:27:09,000 --> 00:27:11,559
little John, he gets shot with a bow and arrow.

468
00:27:12,319 --> 00:27:15,400
Robin kills another one by a sword, and I think

469
00:27:15,400 --> 00:27:17,559
I'm right in saying he also kills another one with

470
00:27:17,599 --> 00:27:20,839
a bow and arrow. So you can see these guys

471
00:27:20,839 --> 00:27:24,519
getting bumped off. Now, what is just incredible. This only

472
00:27:24,519 --> 00:27:26,839
happened towards the end of writing the book. As soon

473
00:27:26,880 --> 00:27:28,960
as you put in the list of sheriff of Nottingham's

474
00:27:29,039 --> 00:27:32,640
it becomes really obvious that at certain points the sheriffs

475
00:27:32,680 --> 00:27:36,119
get killed off, and the ones that get killed off

476
00:27:36,680 --> 00:27:40,400
support the wicked King John, and the ones that survive

477
00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:45,039
support Richard the lion Heart. And guess what, when you

478
00:27:45,039 --> 00:27:49,599
put them into the calendar, the reconstructed series of stories,

479
00:27:49,880 --> 00:27:52,960
they just fall in exactly where you would expect them to.

480
00:27:53,759 --> 00:27:59,079
So we're forensically, you know, documentary forensics here, we're beyond

481
00:27:59,480 --> 00:28:03,640
the possible of that being a coincidence. I mean, the sheriffs,

482
00:28:03,680 --> 00:28:06,200
the list of sheriffs have all come from historical documents

483
00:28:06,599 --> 00:28:09,799
done by the Nottingham Historic Society over the years, you know,

484
00:28:09,920 --> 00:28:12,880
hundreds of years in fact, so they're fairly well established.

485
00:28:13,119 --> 00:28:16,720
And the stories themselves, the original documents are limited, so

486
00:28:16,759 --> 00:28:18,759
you've only got a certain number of those to go at.

487
00:28:18,799 --> 00:28:22,200
So it's not difficult to push the two together and

488
00:28:22,240 --> 00:28:24,799
then to immediately see how this thing plays out.

489
00:28:25,359 --> 00:28:27,559
Speaker 2: Yes, it falls into chronological order.

490
00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:31,400
Speaker 3: And it plays nicely into the templars as well, because

491
00:28:31,759 --> 00:28:35,480
Richard the Lionhart is himself a templar.

492
00:28:35,519 --> 00:28:37,839
Speaker 2: Right, okay, so who were the templars then?

493
00:28:38,920 --> 00:28:44,079
Speaker 3: Okay, Knights Templar are warrior monks. They are incredibly powerful.

494
00:28:44,400 --> 00:28:48,279
They started off in Jerusalem on the First Crusade and

495
00:28:48,319 --> 00:28:51,240
they are basically set up with the idea of protecting

496
00:28:51,279 --> 00:28:56,920
pilgrims and Christianity in general from external attacks. Let's say

497
00:28:58,519 --> 00:29:02,000
they don't always stay in the Holy Land, because eventually

498
00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:05,440
they spread out right across Europe and Britain and some

499
00:29:05,440 --> 00:29:08,559
people say parts of the world, which is not out

500
00:29:08,599 --> 00:29:10,680
of order, because basically these guys are coming out of

501
00:29:10,680 --> 00:29:13,400
the Viking era. So whatever the Vikings could do, they

502
00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:16,519
could do as well, except the invented the travelers check

503
00:29:16,559 --> 00:29:19,319
and got incredibly rich, so you know, made a lot

504
00:29:19,319 --> 00:29:22,480
of enemies in royalty because they were actually better landowners

505
00:29:22,519 --> 00:29:26,880
and richer than royalty, and of course controlled a lot

506
00:29:26,920 --> 00:29:31,039
of the nobility of Europe, including Richard the Lionheart, who

507
00:29:31,079 --> 00:29:34,400
joined the Order, and we've got documentary evidence that he

508
00:29:34,519 --> 00:29:37,440
was part of that order. But the reason why Robin's

509
00:29:37,519 --> 00:29:42,720
interesting is that he starts off officially as a forester,

510
00:29:42,960 --> 00:29:46,079
so he's in the Order of Foresters. That's what he's

511
00:29:46,119 --> 00:29:48,680
a part of. So I'll tell you the story anyway.

512
00:29:48,720 --> 00:29:51,160
You'll love this. It's a famous one. He's walking through

513
00:29:51,440 --> 00:29:53,680
his forest one day and he sees a bunch of

514
00:29:53,680 --> 00:29:57,440
strangers he's never seen before, and this big guy standing

515
00:29:57,480 --> 00:29:59,440
at the front of this group, who is obviously the

516
00:29:59,440 --> 00:30:02,839
bloking ar. So good old Robin walks over to this

517
00:30:02,920 --> 00:30:05,160
guy and he says, oh, what are you doing in

518
00:30:05,200 --> 00:30:08,880
my forest? So this big guy turns around, looks at

519
00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:10,680
this little forest to go and he goes, what do

520
00:30:10,720 --> 00:30:15,920
you mean your forest? This is my forest, and Robin goes, no,

521
00:30:16,079 --> 00:30:18,880
it's not, and I can prove it. This is my forest.

522
00:30:18,880 --> 00:30:20,680
And the other guy goes, no, it's my forest, and

523
00:30:20,759 --> 00:30:22,480
I can prove it. Now you know where this is going.

524
00:30:22,519 --> 00:30:25,640
It finishes up with this big guy and this little

525
00:30:25,640 --> 00:30:28,319
guy having a massive bust up. They're on the floor

526
00:30:29,519 --> 00:30:32,839
punching each other, and the rest of this big guy's

527
00:30:32,960 --> 00:30:37,559
retinue then all Robin off and pick up this big guy.

528
00:30:37,960 --> 00:30:40,720
The big guy dosts himself off, obviously, texts his cloak

529
00:30:40,759 --> 00:30:43,880
off and having low behold it's Richard to flipping lion Heart,

530
00:30:43,920 --> 00:30:47,519
and of course it's his forest. And Robin has decided

531
00:30:47,559 --> 00:30:49,319
he's going to beat the living daylights out of the

532
00:30:49,400 --> 00:30:55,160
king because he's defending the king's forest. Right now, Richard's

533
00:30:55,200 --> 00:30:57,720
not stupid at this point, and he realizes that he's

534
00:30:57,720 --> 00:31:00,240
dealing with a really clever guy here with Robin, who

535
00:31:00,319 --> 00:31:02,200
clearly knows what he's doing in all the rest of it.

536
00:31:02,480 --> 00:31:07,559
So that's the point at which Richard then basically knights Robin, says, okay,

537
00:31:07,599 --> 00:31:10,680
you can join the Templars. You're basically only doing the

538
00:31:10,759 --> 00:31:12,640
job I asked you to do. You know, I don't

539
00:31:12,680 --> 00:31:15,000
care that you beat me up. That's irrelevant. You're just

540
00:31:15,039 --> 00:31:17,079
doing what I asked you to do, so you know,

541
00:31:17,160 --> 00:31:19,559
and he gets raised, if you like. So for the

542
00:31:19,599 --> 00:31:23,240
rest of Robin's life after that point, he's a noble

543
00:31:23,279 --> 00:31:26,839
templar appointed by Richard the Lionheart. So that story has

544
00:31:27,400 --> 00:31:31,240
it's important. It happens in fact, because we know from

545
00:31:31,279 --> 00:31:33,839
the journals that Richard the Lionheart kept that he was

546
00:31:33,920 --> 00:31:36,680
in Nottingham. We know exactly which year it was. I

547
00:31:36,880 --> 00:31:38,960
think I might saying it's eleven ninety six, but I'm

548
00:31:38,960 --> 00:31:41,279
not even looking that one up. But it's somewhere in

549
00:31:41,279 --> 00:31:44,319
that year that it happens. So we can pin that.

550
00:31:44,400 --> 00:31:46,359
We can actually pin that in Robin's life, we know

551
00:31:46,440 --> 00:31:49,440
exactly when that happened, and sure enough, things do change

552
00:31:49,440 --> 00:31:53,240
for Robin after that point. He also is given the

553
00:31:53,359 --> 00:31:56,880
royal assent, the royal right then to marry made Marmion

554
00:31:57,279 --> 00:32:00,279
because she's a maid of a noble family. And up

555
00:32:00,279 --> 00:32:02,920
to that point he's just a scruffy forester. You know,

556
00:32:03,799 --> 00:32:06,559
Now he's not. Now he's now he's clearly he's become

557
00:32:06,599 --> 00:32:09,759
a knight. So it kind of it smooths everything out.

558
00:32:09,799 --> 00:32:12,160
It oils the wheels for everything that happens from that

559
00:32:12,200 --> 00:32:15,319
point on. So it's a really important turning point that one.

560
00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:20,839
Speaker 2: And what family was made Mariam from.

561
00:32:21,519 --> 00:32:23,799
Speaker 3: It's the mark, it's the Marmion family that that is

562
00:32:23,839 --> 00:32:27,039
the family name. How it became Marion, we're not sure,

563
00:32:27,079 --> 00:32:29,759
because she's not she's not actually called Marion. In a

564
00:32:29,759 --> 00:32:33,519
lot of the early legends, she's referred to as Clorinda.

565
00:32:33,640 --> 00:32:37,079
But we think Clorinda could be either a French name

566
00:32:37,400 --> 00:32:41,599
in the French stories, or possibly a pet name, so

567
00:32:41,839 --> 00:32:43,359
you know, it could just be a nickname. It could

568
00:32:43,359 --> 00:32:46,480
be what she was known as. Because Hoad or ode

569
00:32:47,599 --> 00:32:51,480
as much as hoade becomes Hood, which in a sense

570
00:32:51,559 --> 00:32:55,039
becomes a nickname, So his name wasn't really Hood. What

571
00:32:55,079 --> 00:32:59,400
he did was he chose the only available unused name

572
00:33:00,079 --> 00:33:03,559
can name in his family tree, and that was Bishop Odo,

573
00:33:04,480 --> 00:33:10,720
So he became Robin Odo, which became Robin Ode yeah,

574
00:33:11,119 --> 00:33:13,680
which then eventually, yeah, over hundreds of years, ends up

575
00:33:13,720 --> 00:33:16,960
developing into the wood we have today. So were something

576
00:33:17,079 --> 00:33:20,400
very similar to that is happening with made Marmion. And

577
00:33:20,440 --> 00:33:23,240
the fact that they were married at Doverridge is interesting

578
00:33:23,319 --> 00:33:28,240
because that brings together Tutbury and Friar Tuck. It brings

579
00:33:28,240 --> 00:33:31,400
together the fact that the wicked King John rebelled against

580
00:33:31,440 --> 00:33:34,559
the pope, so all the buildings were shut, so he

581
00:33:34,640 --> 00:33:36,799
had to get married under the oak tree outside the

582
00:33:36,880 --> 00:33:41,920
church because the church was shut. And you can identify

583
00:33:42,319 --> 00:33:45,759
Roger of Tutbury, who is Friar Tuck who marries them,

584
00:33:45,839 --> 00:33:48,279
and you know it kind of and that they have

585
00:33:48,359 --> 00:33:51,279
children as well, so you can start to build the

586
00:33:51,319 --> 00:33:55,039
family tree. Then after Robin you can see where that's going.

587
00:33:55,200 --> 00:33:57,359
So that again, that's another turning point, the whole thing

588
00:33:57,359 --> 00:34:00,279
with Doverridge and him getting married after he'd become an eye,

589
00:34:00,440 --> 00:34:02,240
so you know, it all fits.

590
00:34:02,640 --> 00:34:04,359
Speaker 2: How many children did he have doing on.

591
00:34:05,480 --> 00:34:08,880
Speaker 3: I'm pretty sure he ends up producing two sons and

592
00:34:08,960 --> 00:34:12,840
a daughter. And what's interesting is he has at least

593
00:34:12,880 --> 00:34:17,400
one son and at least a daughter before he actually

594
00:34:17,440 --> 00:34:21,039
gets married, which in medieval times for the nobility is

595
00:34:21,199 --> 00:34:25,519
normal because while you're functioning as a noble knight, the

596
00:34:25,559 --> 00:34:29,159
idea is that you worship your lady from afar and

597
00:34:29,199 --> 00:34:31,159
as long as you're not married, it's all you know,

598
00:34:31,199 --> 00:34:35,119
it's all about chivalry and chastity and romance. And you know,

599
00:34:35,119 --> 00:34:37,400
I'm pretty sure we are. We're in the same boat today.

600
00:34:37,400 --> 00:34:39,119
You know, as soon as you married somebody, you know,

601
00:34:39,159 --> 00:34:41,119
the whole lot just goes to hell in a speedboat.

602
00:34:41,159 --> 00:34:43,079
You know, everyone kind of forgets about it. You know,

603
00:34:43,119 --> 00:34:45,719
birth is Christmas and all that gone. Forget it because

604
00:34:45,719 --> 00:34:48,159
you're living in the same house. I'd imagine it's pretty

605
00:34:48,199 --> 00:34:51,800
much the same, you know, in medieval times. So they

606
00:34:51,840 --> 00:34:53,679
wanted the romance to carry on, and they only get

607
00:34:53,719 --> 00:34:55,880
sort of married fairly late in life and then they

608
00:34:55,880 --> 00:34:58,320
have another son. But at least it means the children

609
00:34:58,360 --> 00:35:02,280
can then inherit, you know, the heerit everything under medieval law.

610
00:35:03,039 --> 00:35:07,920
Speaker 2: So how the sort of modern can can you trace

611
00:35:08,639 --> 00:35:12,000
the children and their children and so on?

612
00:35:13,320 --> 00:35:17,639
Speaker 3: Well, this is where it gets really interesting because Robin,

613
00:35:19,119 --> 00:35:23,079
the dad, Robin hood and at least one of his

614
00:35:23,239 --> 00:35:27,960
sons is recorded as being a defender when the castle

615
00:35:28,000 --> 00:35:32,599
is attacked at Wakefield, so we know that he's still

616
00:35:32,599 --> 00:35:35,079
around at that point, and then sows his son, so

617
00:35:35,159 --> 00:35:39,159
that kind of takes you through the eleven hundreds, and

618
00:35:39,199 --> 00:35:41,920
then his son obviously carries on, and then you've got

619
00:35:41,920 --> 00:35:44,280
this story, a really strange one that comes in much

620
00:35:44,360 --> 00:35:47,280
later on. Sounds very much like the familiar Robin Hood story,

621
00:35:47,679 --> 00:35:50,360
but it's set much later. It's set in the time

622
00:35:50,400 --> 00:35:53,119
of the Edwards, and it's set in the twelve hundreds,

623
00:35:53,599 --> 00:35:56,599
and you start to look at that, and certain other authors,

624
00:35:56,639 --> 00:35:59,239
who again will remain nameless, have decided that that's where

625
00:35:59,280 --> 00:36:03,079
robin Hood belongs, that's where it begins. But the thing

626
00:36:03,159 --> 00:36:06,000
is vack. In medieval times you always called your eldest

627
00:36:06,039 --> 00:36:10,159
son by the same name after yourself, so actually that's

628
00:36:10,199 --> 00:36:13,519
another son. We're dealing with. Another son there, an older

629
00:36:13,719 --> 00:36:17,119
ancestry if you like, of the original Robin. I mean,

630
00:36:17,159 --> 00:36:19,079
the way Robin goes out at the end is quite

631
00:36:19,159 --> 00:36:23,239
interesting as well, because there's probably a pretty good chance

632
00:36:24,360 --> 00:36:28,599
that after he'd retired, because he retires to a monastery,

633
00:36:28,880 --> 00:36:32,400
decides he doesn't want to carry on anymore, dismisses his

634
00:36:32,480 --> 00:36:35,440
band of merry men, you know, and he becomes a hermit,

635
00:36:35,679 --> 00:36:38,360
lives in a hermit cave. But then he gets called

636
00:36:38,400 --> 00:36:41,079
back into service again. You're not gonna believe this, because

637
00:36:41,079 --> 00:36:44,159
they're having trouble with a wicked King John, so they

638
00:36:44,199 --> 00:36:48,039
call him back into service. And there's a pretty good

639
00:36:48,360 --> 00:36:51,159
ninety nine percent possibility he was a running meed for

640
00:36:51,199 --> 00:36:56,119
the signing of Magna Carta in twelve fifteen. So as

641
00:36:56,119 --> 00:36:59,199
I said, he's way into his eighties. He's probably eighty

642
00:36:59,239 --> 00:37:03,320
eight eighty nine at that point. And certainly because the

643
00:37:03,440 --> 00:37:05,920
nobles of Chester and the noble families of this area

644
00:37:05,960 --> 00:37:08,639
were there at that time, that are people named who's

645
00:37:08,679 --> 00:37:12,119
retinue he would almost certainly have been part of. And

646
00:37:12,199 --> 00:37:15,000
it was the templars basically that grabbed hold of King

647
00:37:15,079 --> 00:37:17,800
John and when you're gonna sign, mate, you're going to sign,

648
00:37:17,920 --> 00:37:20,880
you know. So he would have been intimately involved with

649
00:37:20,960 --> 00:37:23,119
all of that, and that's probably the last thing he

650
00:37:23,159 --> 00:37:24,639
did before he passed away.

651
00:37:24,760 --> 00:37:29,360
Speaker 4: Because it was obviously it was the nobles, wasn't it

652
00:37:29,400 --> 00:37:32,239
who who basically said, look, you either signed, they saw,

653
00:37:33,159 --> 00:37:35,559
and you're on your bike and will will rise up

654
00:37:35,599 --> 00:37:37,039
against your sort of thing against.

655
00:37:36,960 --> 00:37:40,519
Speaker 3: Yeah, the nobles, Yeah, the Norman nobles. Basically they they

656
00:37:40,679 --> 00:37:41,360
just had enough.

657
00:37:41,639 --> 00:37:45,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, John King, wasn't he immense? I mean he lost

658
00:37:46,320 --> 00:37:51,039
such so much land in France and he was rubbish, absolutelysaster.

659
00:37:51,119 --> 00:37:53,000
I mean there's been plenty of disasters, hasn't.

660
00:37:53,400 --> 00:37:55,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, but he was. He was a bad one. I

661
00:37:55,360 --> 00:37:57,840
mean some people think he had a bad rap because

662
00:37:58,119 --> 00:38:00,239
basically Richard the line Art was only in this try

663
00:38:00,280 --> 00:38:03,760
for about six or eight months in his entire reign,

664
00:38:04,039 --> 00:38:06,360
and he basically dumped all the tax collecting on his

665
00:38:06,400 --> 00:38:09,079
brother John. So I mean, nobody loves a tax collector.

666
00:38:09,079 --> 00:38:11,199
It's you know, it's the same today. And when he

667
00:38:11,239 --> 00:38:13,440
became a king, you know he was he was just

668
00:38:13,519 --> 00:38:20,079
not liked at all, and you know, the Magnets absolutely

669
00:38:20,119 --> 00:38:21,159
didn't like him one bit.

670
00:38:21,679 --> 00:38:25,880
Speaker 2: So do we know what Robin died of? Was he?

671
00:38:26,440 --> 00:38:28,599
I mean did he die of old age?

672
00:38:29,440 --> 00:38:31,960
Speaker 3: Well you've you've got this arrow into.

673
00:38:31,800 --> 00:38:34,440
Speaker 2: The lands burying me. You know.

674
00:38:34,559 --> 00:38:37,159
Speaker 3: Well, that's one of them stories that just falls apart

675
00:38:37,280 --> 00:38:40,400
under scrutiny because because the idea is that this this

676
00:38:40,480 --> 00:38:45,199
guy called Red Red Roger buys off the abbot Abbotess,

677
00:38:45,360 --> 00:38:49,199
sorry abbess buys her off and gets her to to

678
00:38:49,320 --> 00:38:53,400
bleed the elderly Robin for his own good. There he

679
00:38:53,480 --> 00:38:56,119
is dying, you know, he's losing loads and loads of blood.

680
00:38:56,760 --> 00:38:58,960
You can just imagine him sitting up in bed, grabbing

681
00:38:58,960 --> 00:39:01,679
all of one hundred and six pound drawway you bow,

682
00:39:01,760 --> 00:39:06,559
you know, firing an arrow six hundred and sixty six yards. No, no,

683
00:39:06,639 --> 00:39:08,719
I'm sorry, I'm not buying that at all. The whole

684
00:39:08,719 --> 00:39:11,800
thing falls apart and his burial site. I mean, I

685
00:39:11,840 --> 00:39:13,679
won't go into too much detail, but his burial site

686
00:39:13,719 --> 00:39:16,599
is completely wrong. So what I would do is I'd

687
00:39:16,639 --> 00:39:19,960
track back back to me historical sources and have a

688
00:39:20,000 --> 00:39:22,960
look at what his last words are in the play

689
00:39:23,000 --> 00:39:27,239
by Skelton, because Skelton quotes his last words from earlier sources,

690
00:39:27,239 --> 00:39:29,760
and his last words are basically, I would like to

691
00:39:29,800 --> 00:39:35,480
be buried in Wakefield Abbey under the abbey walls. Right now.

692
00:39:35,599 --> 00:39:38,960
I'm an archaeologist, soya, hey, I know we're Robin's buried.

693
00:39:38,960 --> 00:39:40,599
Now let's go and have a look. So you dive

694
00:39:40,639 --> 00:39:43,159
in and you have a look at Wakefield, and much

695
00:39:43,199 --> 00:39:46,639
to your disappointment, there's no abbey. So you think right,

696
00:39:46,679 --> 00:39:50,239
that's it. That's blown it, except for the main what

697
00:39:50,440 --> 00:39:53,400
is now the main sort of cathedral church in the center.

698
00:39:54,320 --> 00:39:56,400
They started to tear up the floor to put in

699
00:39:56,480 --> 00:39:59,920
central heating, and guess what they found a late nine

700
00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:04,880
teen nineties they found the foundations of the earlier abbey

701
00:40:05,360 --> 00:40:10,039
and then they hit skeletons. So there's actual archaeology for

702
00:40:10,400 --> 00:40:14,119
medieval skeletons coming out of the abbey at Wakefield. Now,

703
00:40:14,599 --> 00:40:17,239
I did a documentary version of this quite a long

704
00:40:17,280 --> 00:40:19,880
time ago, filmed one. It's out on YouTube, and most

705
00:40:19,920 --> 00:40:23,679
people miss missed the little subtlety at the end because

706
00:40:23,719 --> 00:40:26,199
I'm standing there on the brand new floor, you know,

707
00:40:26,239 --> 00:40:29,119
in this really polished, shiny bit of the bit of

708
00:40:29,119 --> 00:40:30,880
the abbey, and you know, it looks fantastic and all

709
00:40:30,880 --> 00:40:32,239
the rest of it, and I'm leaning on a table

710
00:40:32,239 --> 00:40:34,440
and I'm chatting to the camera and I'm saying, so

711
00:40:34,599 --> 00:40:37,639
somewhere bill over the floor at this point is where

712
00:40:37,719 --> 00:40:40,519
the body of Robin will be. He'll be buried somewhere

713
00:40:40,599 --> 00:40:43,159
up against the walls. You know. They obviously didn't go

714
00:40:43,199 --> 00:40:45,119
down deep enough to find him, but they found a

715
00:40:45,159 --> 00:40:47,679
few other bodies, you know, and he's under here and

716
00:40:47,719 --> 00:40:49,639
then I sort of stand up and I walk out

717
00:40:49,639 --> 00:40:52,480
of the church. And the last shot is this table

718
00:40:52,760 --> 00:40:55,079
that they put in as an altar, and it's a

719
00:40:55,239 --> 00:41:02,199
giant temple across. That's what it is. So somebody somewhere

720
00:41:02,480 --> 00:41:04,719
knows a little bit more than they're saying. I'm going

721
00:41:04,800 --> 00:41:08,079
to leave it at that. Okay, somebody somewhere didn't didn't

722
00:41:08,079 --> 00:41:11,480
put this socky, great, big solidwood table in on that

723
00:41:11,559 --> 00:41:14,559
spot by accident. They didn't do it, you know what

724
00:41:14,559 --> 00:41:15,320
I'm saying.

725
00:41:17,079 --> 00:41:19,800
Speaker 2: Getting very sort of Indiana. Johnes at his point.

726
00:41:19,800 --> 00:41:22,239
Speaker 3: Oh, it really is. It's in the book, but I've

727
00:41:22,239 --> 00:41:25,079
put in it's Oxford Archaeology that did the excavation, so

728
00:41:25,119 --> 00:41:27,320
I put all their report materials stuff in at the end.

729
00:41:27,840 --> 00:41:31,199
But you know, it's it's so it's. The guy used

730
00:41:31,199 --> 00:41:34,119
to run the Robbin Hoood Appreciation Society in America gave

731
00:41:34,199 --> 00:41:37,480
us a review and the book came out, and he's

732
00:41:37,559 --> 00:41:40,079
big in the Robinhood world, and he basically we sent

733
00:41:40,159 --> 00:41:42,639
him a compliment to copy and he wrote a review

734
00:41:42,719 --> 00:41:44,880
for us, and the gist of it is right at

735
00:41:44,880 --> 00:41:46,880
the very end, he says, this is the best book

736
00:41:46,920 --> 00:41:49,840
on Robin Hood ever written. So I was like, I

737
00:41:49,840 --> 00:41:52,400
don't care if nobody buys it. That will do for me.

738
00:41:52,840 --> 00:41:53,800
That's good enough for me.

739
00:41:57,800 --> 00:42:02,320
Speaker 2: So really, everything that we know, thank to Hollywood various

740
00:42:02,360 --> 00:42:08,000
BBC productions over the years, is fairly way off.

741
00:42:09,440 --> 00:42:12,920
Speaker 3: The word i'd use, I think is well massaged. You know.

742
00:42:13,119 --> 00:42:16,079
It's It's funny because I was writing this at the

743
00:42:16,079 --> 00:42:18,239
same time as I think it was. Brookeeimer was doing

744
00:42:18,239 --> 00:42:21,679
his take on Robin Hood, you know, with Kate Blanchett

745
00:42:21,719 --> 00:42:24,920
and all that sort of thing, a lot grittier than

746
00:42:24,960 --> 00:42:26,760
the Kevin Costner one and all the rest of it.

747
00:42:26,800 --> 00:42:28,840
I love the Costner one. I'm sorry, I don't care

748
00:42:28,840 --> 00:42:31,559
what anybody says. I know he didn't have an American accent,

749
00:42:31,559 --> 00:42:33,280
you know, he had a Yorkshire accent. But you know,

750
00:42:33,960 --> 00:42:35,719
you know I'm going to cut out his heart with

751
00:42:35,800 --> 00:42:41,119
a spoon, you know, Alan Rickman, I can't. He saves

752
00:42:41,159 --> 00:42:44,519
the film, you know, you can't fault it anyway. And

753
00:42:44,599 --> 00:42:47,280
a lot of that, and a lot of the brook

754
00:42:47,400 --> 00:42:52,519
Armor one is based on the early surviving manuscripts, so

755
00:42:52,920 --> 00:42:56,119
it's it's not all complete twaddle. Yes, Hollywood's you know,

756
00:42:56,239 --> 00:42:59,039
glossed it and all that, like you would expect, but

757
00:42:59,079 --> 00:43:01,400
there is some there is some gritty truth in it.

758
00:43:01,440 --> 00:43:03,880
There really is. It's down to the reader to dig.

759
00:43:04,159 --> 00:43:06,280
You know. It's definitely one of those things where you've

760
00:43:06,519 --> 00:43:09,199
you've really got to dig. I think I explained in

761
00:43:09,199 --> 00:43:10,960
the book as well. You know, if you if you

762
00:43:11,000 --> 00:43:13,840
look carefully, I do this thing at the beginning. It's

763
00:43:13,840 --> 00:43:15,519
a bit of nonsense where I say, in a Robin

764
00:43:15,519 --> 00:43:19,159
Hood comes out of his big stonecastle, walks across his drawbridge,

765
00:43:19,480 --> 00:43:22,679
jumps in his sports car, throws his flint lock musket

766
00:43:22,719 --> 00:43:26,079
on the back seat, you know, polishes his shiny armor,

767
00:43:26,480 --> 00:43:29,000
you know, puts his earphones in and drives off. Well,

768
00:43:29,440 --> 00:43:31,360
in what I've just said there, the only thing he

769
00:43:31,400 --> 00:43:35,199
could possibly have done in real life is none of them,

770
00:43:35,800 --> 00:43:39,199
because none of those things existed, you know, in eleven

771
00:43:39,360 --> 00:43:42,880
thirty when he was born. So by a process of

772
00:43:43,039 --> 00:43:48,000
you know, intellectual elimination and historical elimination, pretty much, you

773
00:43:48,000 --> 00:43:50,239
can take out you know, the wood for the trees.

774
00:43:50,519 --> 00:43:52,599
You can do it, yeah, you can. You can get

775
00:43:52,679 --> 00:43:55,000
rid of the rubbish because some things just could not

776
00:43:55,079 --> 00:43:58,360
have happened, you know, it's not possible. And that's really

777
00:43:58,360 --> 00:43:59,920
what the book does. It takes you back to the

778
00:44:00,199 --> 00:44:03,239
roots back to the original story. The biggest reveal for

779
00:44:03,280 --> 00:44:06,440
me was the whole connection to Chester, and that's there.

780
00:44:06,559 --> 00:44:08,519
It's there at the beginning. You know, there's there's some

781
00:44:08,559 --> 00:44:12,559
really nice, you know, wow moments in the beginning of

782
00:44:12,599 --> 00:44:12,920
the book.

783
00:44:13,840 --> 00:44:18,559
Speaker 2: That's fantastic. So there is actually a link, isn't there

784
00:44:18,599 --> 00:44:20,320
with the other book that I want to talk to

785
00:44:20,400 --> 00:44:25,320
you about, The Green Man, because you mentioned a carriage

786
00:44:25,320 --> 00:44:28,800
called Jack in the Green. Yeah, so it is this.

787
00:44:29,440 --> 00:44:31,800
Do some people think that this is robin Hood as well?

788
00:44:33,679 --> 00:44:41,159
Speaker 3: Yeah, Basically folklorists quote unquote they've connected Jack in the

789
00:44:41,199 --> 00:44:45,960
Green and Hook and all the legends of the forests,

790
00:44:46,360 --> 00:44:50,519
they've connected that to robin Hood. Now, on the one hand,

791
00:44:51,679 --> 00:44:54,800
it's like a massive jump to the left because what

792
00:44:54,840 --> 00:44:58,000
they've done is they've they've taken all of that folklore

793
00:44:58,599 --> 00:45:01,639
and made it a part of the robin Hood corpus,

794
00:45:01,960 --> 00:45:05,119
which to some extent you could argue it never was.

795
00:45:05,800 --> 00:45:09,000
I'm not saying that what they're saying is right or wrong,

796
00:45:09,199 --> 00:45:14,760
but some of it is made up. If you pumped

797
00:45:14,760 --> 00:45:17,360
into a medieval guy, you know, in twelve hundred and

798
00:45:17,400 --> 00:45:20,639
you started talking about fairies and elves and goblins and this, that,

799
00:45:20,639 --> 00:45:22,119
and the other that you wouldn't have a clue what

800
00:45:22,119 --> 00:45:24,639
the hell you were talking about. Absolutely would not know

801
00:45:24,880 --> 00:45:26,320
at all what you were going on about.

802
00:45:26,960 --> 00:45:29,079
Speaker 2: And I would know what the green man was though,

803
00:45:29,079 --> 00:45:29,519
wouldn't they.

804
00:45:29,880 --> 00:45:31,960
Speaker 3: Well, this is where it gets interesting, because then you

805
00:45:32,000 --> 00:45:34,199
take a jump to the right, you go the other

806
00:45:34,239 --> 00:45:38,159
way and you end up. Yeah, you could make a

807
00:45:38,159 --> 00:45:40,000
song out of this. It'd be quite popular, wasn't it.

808
00:45:42,039 --> 00:45:44,800
And then you're back in Robinhood territory again and the key,

809
00:45:44,880 --> 00:45:50,639
the key to it all forister and he's wearing green.

810
00:45:51,960 --> 00:45:56,440
Now this is where the link actually becomes tangible. Anybody

811
00:45:56,480 --> 00:46:00,800
anywhere who was a forester had the right, the medieval

812
00:46:00,920 --> 00:46:05,559
right to wear clothing that was dyed using acetic acid

813
00:46:05,599 --> 00:46:10,159
and copper, which basically turned it green. Must have stank

814
00:46:10,320 --> 00:46:12,480
because of acetic acid back then was we wei, so

815
00:46:12,639 --> 00:46:15,239
using we wei and copper, but it dyes all your

816
00:46:15,239 --> 00:46:17,800
clothing green. So that's where you're getting the green from.

817
00:46:18,480 --> 00:46:22,880
And the symbol, the actual i could say, guild symbol

818
00:46:23,000 --> 00:46:28,039
for foresters is the face in the leaves, which you've

819
00:46:28,039 --> 00:46:30,679
got as much right then to put that on your castles,

820
00:46:31,159 --> 00:46:35,119
on your churches, you know, anywhere you like on your houses.

821
00:46:35,239 --> 00:46:38,159
If you're a forester, you can use that symbol because

822
00:46:38,159 --> 00:46:40,440
that is your guild symbol. Which is why in some

823
00:46:40,519 --> 00:46:43,280
churches you find things like, you know, boots for bootmakers

824
00:46:43,360 --> 00:46:46,840
and tiles for tilers, and you know all the rest

825
00:46:46,880 --> 00:46:50,679
of it, whatever their guild symbol was, Masonic or otherwise,

826
00:46:50,719 --> 00:46:53,320
because you'll find some of the guilds are pseudo Masonic,

827
00:46:53,400 --> 00:46:56,360
some are not. But you find the guild symbols everywhere. Well,

828
00:46:56,400 --> 00:47:00,880
in areas where major churches and major chapels are inside forests,

829
00:47:01,280 --> 00:47:04,719
especially the wrong royal hunting forests, you get green men,

830
00:47:05,039 --> 00:47:07,400
and in some case you get tons and tons of them.

831
00:47:08,480 --> 00:47:12,360
So that really is where folk law, modern folk law,

832
00:47:13,000 --> 00:47:19,079
and true medieval medievalist stuff collides. And it does collide

833
00:47:19,519 --> 00:47:22,280
with the subject of robin Hood, but it goes back

834
00:47:22,280 --> 00:47:24,239
a lot further than that. I mean, now we're dealing

835
00:47:24,239 --> 00:47:27,519
with I've got a copy. Here's what I made earlier.

836
00:47:29,039 --> 00:47:30,559
This is the green Man. So this is the other

837
00:47:30,599 --> 00:47:33,000
book you want to grab hold of. This partners very

838
00:47:33,000 --> 00:47:34,840
well with the robin Hood book, actually, and it does

839
00:47:34,880 --> 00:47:37,599
answer a lot of the questions about the green Man.

840
00:47:37,800 --> 00:47:41,800
The green Man goes back an enormously long way, and

841
00:47:41,920 --> 00:47:46,239
it's Celtic, and it's European and British. It's a very

842
00:47:46,280 --> 00:47:51,440
British thing. Copper. I'll tell you. I'll tell you a

843
00:47:51,440 --> 00:47:54,800
little story about how I came to realize how all

844
00:47:54,800 --> 00:48:00,440
these different bits fit together. A bit sort of off

845
00:48:00,519 --> 00:48:02,360
piece of this, but you'll get where I'm coming from.

846
00:48:02,679 --> 00:48:06,119
They found ot see the iceman frozen, this frozen body

847
00:48:06,199 --> 00:48:09,280
up in the Alps, Austrian Alps, and he's about three thousand,

848
00:48:09,320 --> 00:48:12,840
three hundred BC, maybe the most three thousand, six hundred,

849
00:48:12,840 --> 00:48:15,960
but let's call him three thousand, three hundred's bronze age.

850
00:48:16,159 --> 00:48:20,639
He's carrying a copper axe, and he's got tattoos. So

851
00:48:20,679 --> 00:48:23,239
he's got these little markings all over him that seem

852
00:48:23,320 --> 00:48:25,519
to have something to do with the problems he's having

853
00:48:25,559 --> 00:48:28,440
with his joints. So if he's got rheumatism anywhere, they

854
00:48:28,480 --> 00:48:31,719
seem to tattoo him with this hot charcoal. You know,

855
00:48:31,760 --> 00:48:34,679
it's some kind of heat treatment. Before the Chinese were

856
00:48:34,719 --> 00:48:37,280
doing it, you know, it's some kind of acupuncture thing.

857
00:48:37,400 --> 00:48:40,280
But anyway, he's got tattoos, he's got an equal arm

858
00:48:40,320 --> 00:48:42,639
cross on the inside of his right knee, and he's

859
00:48:42,639 --> 00:48:45,360
got another one on his left ankle, so that gives

860
00:48:45,400 --> 00:48:48,800
you that the solar cross of the Bronze Age. And

861
00:48:48,840 --> 00:48:50,719
it's like, I say, he's carrying this copper axe that's

862
00:48:50,760 --> 00:48:53,440
completely useless. You couldn't do anything with it. It's just

863
00:48:53,480 --> 00:48:55,760
like the latest mobile phone, you know, it's just bling.

864
00:48:56,119 --> 00:49:00,360
That's all it is. Bling. So what they decide to

865
00:49:00,400 --> 00:49:05,360
do over here, the British Museum has got Lindo Man.

866
00:49:06,440 --> 00:49:09,519
Now Lindo Man is a bit more recent than that.

867
00:49:09,679 --> 00:49:12,880
He's kind of round about two hundred and thirty a

868
00:49:13,079 --> 00:49:16,360
d give or take fifty years either way. That's the

869
00:49:16,400 --> 00:49:19,960
carbon date for him. So he's but he's British and

870
00:49:20,000 --> 00:49:22,599
he's a bog body. So he's been preserved very much

871
00:49:22,599 --> 00:49:25,039
in the same way as Otsy has. So all this

872
00:49:25,119 --> 00:49:27,880
information about Otsy started coming out in the nineteen nineties,

873
00:49:27,920 --> 00:49:30,360
so the British Museum thought, I'll tell you what not

874
00:49:30,480 --> 00:49:33,119
to be outdone, We're gonna have a look at Lindo Mann.

875
00:49:33,159 --> 00:49:35,320
So they get get Lindo Man. They got all over

876
00:49:35,400 --> 00:49:38,119
him trying to find out whether or not he's got

877
00:49:38,119 --> 00:49:41,400
any tattoos, because he has a sacrifice victim from Lindo

878
00:49:41,480 --> 00:49:43,559
moss In cheshire next to one of the edge, which

879
00:49:43,599 --> 00:49:45,519
is a giant copper mine.

880
00:49:45,119 --> 00:49:47,760
Speaker 2: And he's got a.

881
00:49:47,599 --> 00:49:49,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, and he had a thing tied around his arm,

882
00:49:49,519 --> 00:49:55,960
a fox fox surfer strapped round there. Basically, well, he

883
00:49:56,119 --> 00:49:59,079
was where it gets bad. They strangled him. In the

884
00:49:59,079 --> 00:50:01,480
process of doing that, they broke a couple of his ribs.

885
00:50:01,920 --> 00:50:04,119
Then they smacked him on the head and stabbed him

886
00:50:04,119 --> 00:50:06,440
in the jugular vein at the same time. It's called

887
00:50:06,440 --> 00:50:09,000
the triple deaths, three ways to die. And then they

888
00:50:09,039 --> 00:50:11,800
sent him through the black peaty water into the Celtic

889
00:50:11,880 --> 00:50:14,599
other world. He could be a messenger, you know, he

890
00:50:14,639 --> 00:50:16,760
could be a messenger to the god saying please save

891
00:50:16,880 --> 00:50:19,400
us from the nasty Romans. Or he could actually have

892
00:50:19,480 --> 00:50:22,039
been a bad debtor because you could borrow money as

893
00:50:22,039 --> 00:50:25,280
a celt against your own life so your family would survive,

894
00:50:25,360 --> 00:50:28,360
your tribe had survived, you'd live great, luxuriously for like

895
00:50:28,400 --> 00:50:30,440
a year, but you died at the end of it

896
00:50:30,480 --> 00:50:33,519
because you had to pay it back in the next life. Okay,

897
00:50:33,559 --> 00:50:35,920
two different views, two different ways of looking at it. Anyway,

898
00:50:36,239 --> 00:50:38,360
they go all over the domain and they don't find

899
00:50:38,400 --> 00:50:41,480
any tattoos. But what they do do in the process

900
00:50:41,519 --> 00:50:45,440
of analyzing his skin is they established that when that

901
00:50:45,559 --> 00:50:49,519
sacrifice took place, he was painted from head to foot

902
00:50:50,039 --> 00:50:56,800
in copper. Wow, so he's got this either mud paint

903
00:50:57,440 --> 00:51:05,239
or he's got actual ground up powdered copper all over him. Yes,

904
00:51:05,280 --> 00:51:08,360
because it would have oxidized even though it was gold

905
00:51:08,400 --> 00:51:10,800
when they melted it, when they ground it up when

906
00:51:10,800 --> 00:51:13,440
they painted it on him, it would have literally stained

907
00:51:13,519 --> 00:51:14,320
him green.

908
00:51:15,039 --> 00:51:15,480
Speaker 2: Correct.

909
00:51:15,559 --> 00:51:17,800
Speaker 3: So all of a sudden, here in Cheshire we have

910
00:51:17,840 --> 00:51:23,039
a green man. It's the world's first ever recorded direct

911
00:51:23,079 --> 00:51:27,679
link to a man painted green being sacrificed and sent

912
00:51:27,800 --> 00:51:31,079
into the land in the Celtic Way. Now, as soon

913
00:51:31,119 --> 00:51:32,639
as I found that out, because it's in a really

914
00:51:32,679 --> 00:51:36,079
obscure little report you know, that came out in an

915
00:51:36,159 --> 00:51:39,199
archaeology journal in nineteen ninety four. As soon as I

916
00:51:39,239 --> 00:51:41,159
found that out, I thought, well, they have it. There's

917
00:51:41,199 --> 00:51:44,039
the link, the idea that you can have this skin

918
00:51:44,119 --> 00:51:48,119
of green and somehow be linked, you know, in one direction,

919
00:51:48,239 --> 00:51:51,719
to the sun and copper and the earth and greenery,

920
00:51:52,159 --> 00:51:54,320
you know, and life and all that sort of thing

921
00:51:54,320 --> 00:51:56,360
that takes me in that direction. But in the other

922
00:51:56,400 --> 00:52:00,480
direction also the foresters, they appreciated all that they're dealing

923
00:52:00,519 --> 00:52:02,880
with greenery. They're living out in the sunshine, you know,

924
00:52:03,360 --> 00:52:06,360
that was their belief system. And they were also wearing

925
00:52:06,440 --> 00:52:09,480
a skin of green because their clothing is dyed using copper.

926
00:52:09,719 --> 00:52:13,960
The Normans actually called them verdigers or verderers, which means

927
00:52:14,000 --> 00:52:19,280
green men' that's what they are. So it's a continuum. Now,

928
00:52:19,519 --> 00:52:21,719
the great thing about this little book is it actually

929
00:52:21,760 --> 00:52:24,199
does join the dots, because it does get to a

930
00:52:24,239 --> 00:52:27,280
point where in the Victorian times all this information vanished,

931
00:52:27,840 --> 00:52:31,679
it disappeared, nobody really seemed to be able to put

932
00:52:31,760 --> 00:52:34,440
the dots together. But also in the other direction it goes.

933
00:52:34,519 --> 00:52:36,719
It goes all the way back as far as Babylon.

934
00:52:37,440 --> 00:52:39,960
You've got this god of the woods called Humbarber in

935
00:52:39,960 --> 00:52:43,159
the epic of Gilgamesh, and they're terrified to go in there,

936
00:52:43,199 --> 00:52:45,280
and you know, cut the timber down and cut the

937
00:52:45,320 --> 00:52:48,480
woods down because of the wrath of this god who

938
00:52:48,519 --> 00:52:52,000
is the god of the forest. But then you're in

939
00:52:52,079 --> 00:52:54,719
the you're in the Eastern Bronze Age. You're right at

940
00:52:54,719 --> 00:52:58,800
the birth of you know, coming off farming and clearing woodlands.

941
00:52:59,119 --> 00:53:01,480
So you can see where the thing's got its origins.

942
00:53:01,519 --> 00:53:05,639
You know, seven five hundred BC. You know, so it's

943
00:53:05,679 --> 00:53:10,400
a tremendously tremendously old religion. I tried to get it

944
00:53:10,440 --> 00:53:14,320
in the title as well. People probably don't don't quite

945
00:53:14,400 --> 00:53:18,559
notice this, but it's called let's try and find mind it.

946
00:53:18,559 --> 00:53:21,440
It's called Revealing the Green Man, the restoration of the

947
00:53:21,480 --> 00:53:25,079
oldest religion on planet Earth. So if you want to

948
00:53:25,119 --> 00:53:28,639
know what people believed right through prehistory, it's in the

949
00:53:28,679 --> 00:53:31,159
hotel books. So there you go. So that's Robin. That's

950
00:53:31,199 --> 00:53:34,079
how it gets into Robin, I think is that Robin

951
00:53:34,320 --> 00:53:39,280
was literally a green Man, you know, by profession, he

952
00:53:39,320 --> 00:53:42,159
was a verderer, so that's what he was prior to

953
00:53:42,199 --> 00:53:43,119
becoming a templar.

954
00:53:43,440 --> 00:53:46,559
Speaker 2: Fascinating, So yeah, I mean it's I mean from from

955
00:53:46,679 --> 00:53:49,079
I mean, I've obviously learned the hell of a lot

956
00:53:49,119 --> 00:53:54,599
in the Glass's an well, I mean it's been fascinated Mark,

957
00:53:54,599 --> 00:53:57,480
he really has. The interesting thing is that you mentioned

958
00:53:57,519 --> 00:54:03,800
that Robin Hood was uh a descendant of Bishop Udor,

959
00:54:03,920 --> 00:54:07,280
who was William the Conqueror's brother.

960
00:54:08,559 --> 00:54:11,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, he's not biologically I've just got to put that

961
00:54:11,920 --> 00:54:17,000
qualification in because the O'Malley family they are biological, you know,

962
00:54:17,079 --> 00:54:22,360
they are literal lineal descendants. Yeah, they sound Irish, they do,

963
00:54:22,639 --> 00:54:25,920
but it's O'Malley is a it's French. It's French. So

964
00:54:25,960 --> 00:54:28,280
that that gives you, it gives the clue away. And

965
00:54:28,320 --> 00:54:32,119
all these brothers and sisters are biologically from Odo. But

966
00:54:32,280 --> 00:54:36,559
then when his mum remarries, Robin, as the child of

967
00:54:36,599 --> 00:54:38,960
the remarriage, does not have the right to use the

968
00:54:39,000 --> 00:54:42,320
O'Malley name. He's got to find one from somewhere else.

969
00:54:42,800 --> 00:54:45,079
But at that point he goes, hey, up, nobody's using

970
00:54:45,440 --> 00:54:49,440
nobody's using Odo to have that, I'll have OD. That's

971
00:54:49,440 --> 00:54:52,599
where he gets it from. So he's kind of related

972
00:54:52,639 --> 00:54:55,719
by adoption and by marriage through his month. That's that's

973
00:54:55,760 --> 00:54:56,880
how it works out.

974
00:54:57,119 --> 00:54:59,159
Speaker 2: I mean an often. I mean when I when I

975
00:54:59,239 --> 00:55:01,920
trust my own family. How difficulty is to find records,

976
00:55:01,960 --> 00:55:06,079
especially if you're going back anything eighteenth century backwards. You've

977
00:55:06,079 --> 00:55:10,119
got to have that gateway ancestor. And obviously the records

978
00:55:10,119 --> 00:55:13,320
are still fairly intact, going all the way back what

979
00:55:14,239 --> 00:55:19,440
nine hundred nearough for a thousand years, which is quite amazing, really,

980
00:55:19,519 --> 00:55:20,079
isn't it that the.

981
00:55:20,039 --> 00:55:23,679
Speaker 3: Record was It's because of the royal connection.

982
00:55:23,599 --> 00:55:26,920
Speaker 2: You know, Gateway ancestor isn't it exactly?

983
00:55:26,960 --> 00:55:30,280
Speaker 3: And they were copied again and again and again. And

984
00:55:30,440 --> 00:55:34,800
also hats off to you know, all the researchers that

985
00:55:34,840 --> 00:55:38,639
have you know, tackled it previously, in previous ages. I

986
00:55:39,000 --> 00:55:41,440
basically had the floor covered in books, you know, trying

987
00:55:41,440 --> 00:55:44,440
to piece this together, partly to get rid of the

988
00:55:44,480 --> 00:55:47,840
stuff that clearly wasn't right, because people have tried to

989
00:55:47,880 --> 00:55:50,159
make Robin out to be all kinds of different people.

990
00:55:50,239 --> 00:55:55,079
You know, look who's back there, he goes, trust me,

991
00:55:55,159 --> 00:55:57,519
the tailor isn't mine. So partly to get rid of

992
00:55:57,559 --> 00:55:59,800
all those things, and then partly to actually see what

993
00:56:00,039 --> 00:56:03,519
people had actually come up with. And it does work.

994
00:56:04,000 --> 00:56:04,800
It does work.

995
00:56:05,199 --> 00:56:08,679
Speaker 2: Yeah, I suppose you had to sift through the through

996
00:56:08,719 --> 00:56:11,960
the myths to be able to find you know, the actual,

997
00:56:13,760 --> 00:56:18,760
you know, hard facts that you've talked about.

998
00:56:19,440 --> 00:56:21,880
Speaker 3: Well, it's something similar to what happened with the chronology.

999
00:56:21,880 --> 00:56:24,719
Happened again with the with the family tree. Because it's

1000
00:56:24,760 --> 00:56:28,599
funny that one of the children of Stephen O'Malley, one

1001
00:56:28,639 --> 00:56:32,760
of them, his name eventually is Red Roger. Red Roger

1002
00:56:32,960 --> 00:56:36,039
is the guy accused of trying to kill Robin. Now

1003
00:56:36,039 --> 00:56:38,679
that makes perfect sense because they're both about the same age.

1004
00:56:38,920 --> 00:56:43,239
They're both from different branches of the same family, but

1005
00:56:43,519 --> 00:56:45,360
Robin is the one seemed to be the one that's

1006
00:56:45,400 --> 00:56:47,480
not legitimate, so of course Red Roger will want to

1007
00:56:47,519 --> 00:56:50,079
get rid of him, you know. So little things like

1008
00:56:50,119 --> 00:56:53,559
that again, which to some extent beyond coincidence, you know,

1009
00:56:53,599 --> 00:56:58,880
they they drop in. I think the forester's second name

1010
00:56:58,920 --> 00:57:04,599
as well was Dared. So howis which is Robin's mum?

1011
00:57:05,159 --> 00:57:08,519
Who is the third husband? Is u Dard the forester?

1012
00:57:09,239 --> 00:57:11,920
Now that I don't think that's in the book because

1013
00:57:11,960 --> 00:57:14,559
I think I discovered that subsequent to writing the book,

1014
00:57:14,880 --> 00:57:17,880
so it's worth including that here as well. So you

1015
00:57:18,000 --> 00:57:21,320
get these names popping up, and sometimes they just you know,

1016
00:57:21,400 --> 00:57:22,519
drop into place.

1017
00:57:22,800 --> 00:57:27,400
Speaker 2: And was were they were they Normans? Were the Norman

1018
00:57:27,559 --> 00:57:29,639
names then sort of the O'Malley and.

1019
00:57:30,480 --> 00:57:34,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, overall, what you could what you could say in

1020
00:57:34,800 --> 00:57:38,239
a way is that that there's the noble family of O'Malley.

1021
00:57:38,440 --> 00:57:42,119
You know, that's nasty Norman's big castle, shiny armor, all

1022
00:57:42,119 --> 00:57:45,800
that nonsense. And then eventually HAIs, you know, on the

1023
00:57:45,840 --> 00:57:50,559
third go, marries out of that nobility. She hasn't really

1024
00:57:50,559 --> 00:57:52,480
got any choice because she's quite old at this point,

1025
00:57:52,760 --> 00:57:55,679
she's obviously carrying tons of baggage, you know, and she

1026
00:57:55,760 --> 00:57:58,039
meets this really nice guy. I'd like to think, you know,

1027
00:57:58,159 --> 00:58:00,480
she married him out of love, because they must have

1028
00:58:00,480 --> 00:58:02,880
been a similar age. When she first married into the

1029
00:58:02,920 --> 00:58:05,960
old maalleage, she was quite young, shall we say, in

1030
00:58:06,000 --> 00:58:08,880
comparison to the person she married. So when she eventually

1031
00:58:08,960 --> 00:58:13,800
marries Hudard, I think he was a proper noble forester.

1032
00:58:13,960 --> 00:58:20,280
So you're talking about middle class, working, you know, noble guy.

1033
00:58:20,880 --> 00:58:23,440
So you know, they weren't all, you know, living in

1034
00:58:23,480 --> 00:58:25,119
castles and this, that and the other. You know, he would

1035
00:58:25,119 --> 00:58:26,960
have he might have had a manor house, you know,

1036
00:58:27,039 --> 00:58:30,119
somewhere close to the forest, but I don't even think

1037
00:58:30,159 --> 00:58:31,519
it would have had a moat round it. You know,

1038
00:58:31,559 --> 00:58:34,079
it would just have been, you know, a decent residence.

1039
00:58:34,519 --> 00:58:38,880
Speaker 2: So she's fairly well off, Yeah, landing gentry because exactly

1040
00:58:39,480 --> 00:58:42,679
the country was carved up, wasn't it by William the conqueror?

1041
00:58:42,719 --> 00:58:46,400
And yeah, all his retinue and everything in his nights

1042
00:58:46,440 --> 00:58:48,760
and then everything else. They were all given lands and

1043
00:58:48,920 --> 00:58:52,400
the Anglo Saxons who owned the land were voted off.

1044
00:58:53,519 --> 00:58:55,880
So yeah, if.

1045
00:58:54,920 --> 00:58:56,719
Speaker 3: You really want to see that graphically, I have a look

1046
00:58:56,719 --> 00:58:59,719
at Doomsday survey because when you see William the Conqueror

1047
00:58:59,719 --> 00:59:02,440
Harry in the North, he comes up here in the

1048
00:59:02,480 --> 00:59:05,280
ten seventies, beats livid daylights out of everyone. Have a

1049
00:59:05,320 --> 00:59:08,440
look at Doomsday because it's the ten eighties, and it'll

1050
00:59:08,480 --> 00:59:11,920
say things like, you know, uh Sigwa the Saxon you know,

1051
00:59:12,079 --> 00:59:15,559
value was ten shillings now to Bob, you know. And

1052
00:59:15,559 --> 00:59:18,599
then it'll have things like Raven Raven, who's clearly a Viking,

1053
00:59:18,679 --> 00:59:23,039
you know, value of his estate threepence now ten pounds.

1054
00:59:23,400 --> 00:59:23,559
Speaker 1: You know.

1055
00:59:23,880 --> 00:59:26,000
Speaker 3: You see all of that going on, and you can

1056
00:59:26,039 --> 00:59:30,599
actually graphically see it happening. You know, entire Saxon families

1057
00:59:30,599 --> 00:59:31,679
are just obliterated.

1058
00:59:32,159 --> 00:59:36,599
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, yeah, interesting. He's my thirty fifth great grandfather

1059
00:59:36,800 --> 00:59:39,440
on the mother's side. He's William the Conqueror. So that's

1060
00:59:39,480 --> 00:59:43,639
oh gosh, that's why I was yes, So again, getway ancestors.

1061
00:59:43,639 --> 00:59:47,719
I think I mentioned the last time. Yeah spoke family

1062
00:59:47,760 --> 00:59:53,239
called Watson who we were landowners in West Yorkshire. That's mine,

1063
00:59:53,960 --> 00:59:55,039
I get my ancestor.

1064
00:59:55,440 --> 01:00:00,840
Speaker 3: Well, mine is the Nobles of Macclesfield, the forest of Macclesfield.

1065
01:00:00,880 --> 01:00:04,559
So in the twelve hundreds we were foresters. But the

1066
01:00:04,960 --> 01:00:06,840
kind of sting in the tail is that we actually

1067
01:00:06,880 --> 01:00:10,639
migrated south from Scotland, so our origins are in the

1068
01:00:10,639 --> 01:00:13,480
Western Oils. So we've got no chance of going any

1069
01:00:13,480 --> 01:00:17,639
further back than about you know, ten hundred or whatever,

1070
01:00:17,679 --> 01:00:21,000
eleven hundred. That's it, because before that you're into Ireland

1071
01:00:21,000 --> 01:00:23,920
and the Irish records and nonexistent.

1072
01:00:24,440 --> 01:00:30,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, so fourth books? Are they available on in the

1073
01:00:31,039 --> 01:00:32,079
usual places?

1074
01:00:32,400 --> 01:00:35,960
Speaker 3: There you go, yes, normal, not wishing to miss the

1075
01:00:35,960 --> 01:00:40,360
opportunity for an advert that's what you're looking for, don't forget.

1076
01:00:40,400 --> 01:00:47,559
It's Robynhwde Amazon, dead simple, go find them on Amazon.

1077
01:00:48,480 --> 01:00:51,880
They are slightly different publishers than the publisher I'm using now,

1078
01:00:52,400 --> 01:00:57,159
so they're also available in Waterstones. Okay, yeah, so you've

1079
01:00:57,199 --> 01:01:00,280
got got no excuse go and support your local books up.

1080
01:01:00,599 --> 01:01:07,079
Speaker 2: Fantastic, Thanks Mark. It's been really interesting, completely blonde hinder

1081
01:01:07,159 --> 01:01:09,960
part that everything I've thought about Robin Hook was just

1082
01:01:13,639 --> 01:01:18,519
sounds like a really interesting character. And I would imagine

1083
01:01:18,559 --> 01:01:23,000
you had an awful lot of enjoyment doing your research

1084
01:01:23,039 --> 01:01:26,679
into it, because it sounds like you delved into some

1085
01:01:26,719 --> 01:01:28,199
pretty interesting records.

1086
01:01:28,360 --> 01:01:31,519
Speaker 3: Yeah, if you want to see the total Mayhem that ensued.

1087
01:01:31,800 --> 01:01:36,760
Then somewhere out there on YouTube is The Life and

1088
01:01:36,840 --> 01:01:39,960
Times of the Real Robin Hood, the documentary and some

1089
01:01:40,039 --> 01:01:44,079
of the reenactment sections in that are interesting. And then

1090
01:01:44,119 --> 01:01:45,880
if you really want to push it, there's also the

1091
01:01:45,960 --> 01:01:49,360
making of Okay, this is about two hours of backstage

1092
01:01:49,360 --> 01:01:52,159
footage and that's hilarious, you know, just you know, pull

1093
01:01:52,199 --> 01:01:55,039
yourself a very very strong, large cup of tea and

1094
01:01:55,119 --> 01:01:56,719
just kick back with that, you know, just.

1095
01:01:56,719 --> 01:02:01,360
Speaker 2: The very large, strong lots of whiskey, which I probably

1096
01:02:01,400 --> 01:02:04,320
would do. Actually, do you have a YouTube channel logue

1097
01:02:04,320 --> 01:02:04,639
at all?

1098
01:02:05,199 --> 01:02:07,239
Speaker 3: If you want to get most of my YouTube stuff,

1099
01:02:07,239 --> 01:02:09,800
They've got like a sort of a section if you like,

1100
01:02:09,920 --> 01:02:14,760
on a site called Drake Michigan. They have you know,

1101
01:02:14,800 --> 01:02:17,920
they're hosting if you like my back catalog. But that

1102
01:02:18,000 --> 01:02:20,679
again means you can find it independently on YouTube, so

1103
01:02:20,719 --> 01:02:23,280
you can also just type me in and track it down.

1104
01:02:23,599 --> 01:02:26,320
But last year we went bonkers. I mean, it's taken

1105
01:02:26,360 --> 01:02:29,840
eighteen years to get some of this material on. You know,

1106
01:02:29,920 --> 01:02:32,280
all of Lost Treasures is out there, all of the outtakes,

1107
01:02:32,320 --> 01:02:37,320
the extras, interviews are on there. Then we've got six documentaries.

1108
01:02:37,360 --> 01:02:40,320
You know, there's tons, tons of stuff. Last year, we

1109
01:02:40,440 --> 01:02:42,280
just put it all out. I just got fed up

1110
01:02:42,280 --> 01:02:44,320
with waiting, you know, I need to buy into this

1111
01:02:44,800 --> 01:02:47,280
media thing, you know, and get some stuff out there.

1112
01:02:47,519 --> 01:02:49,159
So even the latest one, I mean, we did the

1113
01:02:49,199 --> 01:02:52,360
Disappear in nine Telegion in twenty nineteen and we never

1114
01:02:52,400 --> 01:02:54,599
got that to DVD because of what happened with the

1115
01:02:54,599 --> 01:02:56,960
pandemic and all that. That's gone up as well, and

1116
01:02:57,000 --> 01:02:58,920
that's one of the best things I've ever produced, So

1117
01:02:58,960 --> 01:03:02,719
it's worth going and having for that. Disappearing n into Legion.

1118
01:03:02,639 --> 01:03:04,519
Speaker 2: Might be worth having you back on to talk about

1119
01:03:04,519 --> 01:03:05,519
that at some point.

1120
01:03:05,320 --> 01:03:07,760
Speaker 3: Then yeah, go on, yeah go on, but me for that,

1121
01:03:08,039 --> 01:03:08,719
let's do it.

1122
01:03:08,800 --> 01:03:15,039
Speaker 2: That'd be brilliant. I've again, as last time, Mark, I

1123
01:03:15,039 --> 01:03:17,679
think you probably one of the best guests I've ever

1124
01:03:17,679 --> 01:03:21,039
had on because I think you're just superb storyteller and

1125
01:03:21,079 --> 01:03:22,880
I think that the stuff you come out with is

1126
01:03:22,960 --> 01:03:27,159
just brilliant. I've really enjoyed this evening. It's been a

1127
01:03:27,199 --> 01:03:30,440
real eye open for me, and I know that I

1128
01:03:31,000 --> 01:03:34,079
had some brilliant feedback last time rhyme. So I just

1129
01:03:34,119 --> 01:03:37,079
hope that everybody really, you know, has enjoyed listening to

1130
01:03:37,079 --> 01:03:39,440
this as much as I have, because it's just been

1131
01:03:39,679 --> 01:03:43,159
just been absolutely amazing, So thank you very much and

1132
01:03:43,239 --> 01:03:44,920
I will definitely have you on again at some point.

1133
01:03:45,079 --> 01:03:47,079
Speaker 3: Yeah, thanks for having me. I'd be glad to come back.

1134
01:03:47,199 --> 01:03:51,559
Speaker 2: Absolutely, it's been brilliant, super thank you so much. Take care.

1135
01:03:52,840 --> 01:03:55,559
Speaker 3: As the as the cat gone, Yeah he's wandered off.

1136
01:03:55,599 --> 01:04:01,559
He's got bored. Stampy as in stamps, you know what

1137
01:04:01,599 --> 01:04:04,320
I mean. He stamps stamps with this they call it.

1138
01:04:04,360 --> 01:04:07,760
Was it needing bread? Needing bread yea. And he likes

1139
01:04:07,800 --> 01:04:09,559
doing that with his tail as well, you know, whenever

1140
01:04:09,599 --> 01:04:14,559
he can like that's it brilliant.

1141
01:04:14,559 --> 01:04:16,719
Speaker 2: Well, sir high to stampy for me and I will

1142
01:04:16,760 --> 01:04:18,360
do and we'll speak.

1143
01:04:18,400 --> 01:04:21,760
Speaker 3: So thanks very much, Mark, thanks for having we take care,

1144
01:04:21,840 --> 01:04:22,840
Thank you.

1145
01:04:22,840 --> 01:04:26,800
Speaker 2: You can visit my website at www dot Craig Bryant

1146
01:04:26,840 --> 01:04:27,760
dot co dot uk.

1147
01:04:28,559 --> 01:04:32,280
Speaker 1: Paranormal Pendle will return and remember to keep watching the

1148
01:04:32,320 --> 01:05:18,440
shadows