WEBVTT 1 00:00:04.080 --> 00:00:05.759 The Joe Rogan Experience. 2 00:00:06.179 --> 00:00:09.490 Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. 3 00:00:09.509 --> 00:00:14.390 Good to see you, sir. 4 00:00:14.910 --> 00:00:15.449 Good to be here. 5 00:00:15.490 --> 00:00:17.350 Thank you very much for doing this. I'm really excited 6 00:00:17.370 --> 00:00:18.800 to talk to you. I've been looking forward to this 7 00:00:18.839 --> 00:00:19.089 a lot. 8 00:00:19.839 --> 00:00:20.829 Thanks very much for having me. 9 00:00:21.160 --> 00:00:26.059 You have a very, very unique life story. So I 10 00:00:27.179 --> 00:00:31.089 want to start with how did you become, let's lay 11 00:00:31.120 --> 00:00:33.530 it out for people. What got me interested in you 12 00:00:33.829 --> 00:00:39.210 is you became a Christian missionary and then went to 13 00:00:39.229 --> 00:00:45.450 the jungle and met these people. Let me say this right. 14 00:00:46.369 --> 00:00:49.950 And stopped being a missionary and lived with them for 15 00:00:50.229 --> 00:00:50.630 how long? 16 00:00:51.619 --> 00:00:53.840 Well, the total time that I lived with them is 17 00:00:53.880 --> 00:00:56.880 about eight years in the jungle with them over a period. 18 00:00:56.979 --> 00:00:59.200 But I've been working with them for 40 years. I 19 00:00:59.240 --> 00:01:01.179 go back a lot. Wow. 20 00:01:01.780 --> 00:01:04.310 But you lived with them for eight years, and during 21 00:01:04.329 --> 00:01:09.090 that eight-year time period, you kind of— is it safe to 22 00:01:09.109 --> 00:01:09.909 say you're an atheist? 23 00:01:10.189 --> 00:01:11.489 Yes, it's safe to say that. 24 00:01:11.969 --> 00:01:14.209 And so let's take it back to the beginning. How 25 00:01:14.230 --> 00:01:16.310 did you become a missionary? Did you come from a 26 00:01:16.390 --> 00:01:17.159 religious family? 27 00:01:17.799 --> 00:01:22.579 No, I came from a very unreligious family. I was— in fact, 28 00:01:22.640 --> 00:01:24.700 I was standing out in front of a Jimi Hendrix 29 00:01:24.760 --> 00:01:27.980 concert in 1968 trying to sell LSD to get in. 30 00:01:28.680 --> 00:01:31.650 And— And this guy that I knew from high school 31 00:01:31.670 --> 00:01:34.329 that was really straight-laced came up with his sister. She 32 00:01:34.379 --> 00:01:36.379 was very cute. And so I went up to try 33 00:01:36.439 --> 00:01:39.200 to sell them some LSD. They didn't use drugs. And 34 00:01:39.219 --> 00:01:40.819 so I said, well, you got any change? I need 35 00:01:40.840 --> 00:01:43.260 to get some money to get into the concert. And 36 00:01:43.299 --> 00:01:45.859 I saw that she went to the same high school 37 00:01:45.900 --> 00:01:49.260 that I did. So after the concert, which she didn't 38 00:01:49.299 --> 00:01:51.909 like but I loved, I went to see her in 39 00:01:51.939 --> 00:01:55.590 high school. I sat by her during lunchtime and found 40 00:01:55.629 --> 00:01:57.829 out that she was a missionary and had been raised 41 00:01:57.890 --> 00:01:58.409 in Brazil. 42 00:01:58.430 --> 00:01:59.049 Wow. 43 00:01:59.829 --> 00:02:03.010 That really intrigued me because it was the sixties and 44 00:02:03.109 --> 00:02:06.010 I was, you know, didn't want to have just the 45 00:02:06.049 --> 00:02:10.919 typical us life and living in the Amazon sounded really cool. 46 00:02:11.580 --> 00:02:15.960 But then I became, you know, a genuine, strong, believing Christian, uh, 47 00:02:16.039 --> 00:02:18.979 went to Bible school. I did my undergraduate degree in 48 00:02:19.039 --> 00:02:22.550 Bible and theology and I was an ordained minister in 49 00:02:22.569 --> 00:02:26.719 the Wesleyan church and very active in church. And, um, 50 00:02:27.219 --> 00:02:29.800 was preached on street corners and did all that kind 51 00:02:29.840 --> 00:02:30.159 of thing. 52 00:02:30.819 --> 00:02:34.099 How did you make this transition from being a guy 53 00:02:34.120 --> 00:02:35.960 with a bag of acid in front of a Jimi 54 00:02:35.979 --> 00:02:37.430 Hendrix concert to? 55 00:02:38.819 --> 00:02:41.530 Well, her father, who had been a missionary now for 56 00:02:41.530 --> 00:02:45.810 20 years, was the most influential person outside my family 57 00:02:46.330 --> 00:02:48.150 in my life. And he and I would sit up 58 00:02:48.250 --> 00:02:51.949 late at night talking. And, you know, I was 17 59 00:02:51.949 --> 00:02:54.770 and I found everything he said to be very convincing 60 00:02:54.830 --> 00:02:58.129 and very interesting. But mainly I loved his stories of 61 00:02:58.169 --> 00:03:00.189 the jungle and what it was like to live in 62 00:03:00.229 --> 00:03:03.490 the jungle. And I wanted to do that. And I 63 00:03:03.830 --> 00:03:07.449 became a believer. It was a gradual process. Well, actually, no, 64 00:03:07.490 --> 00:03:11.430 it wasn't that gradual. My father was just astounded. He said, 65 00:03:11.590 --> 00:03:14.009 you know, from one minute I'm worrying about you getting arrested. 66 00:03:14.509 --> 00:03:16.610 And now you're going to church every Sunday with these 67 00:03:16.669 --> 00:03:19.310 people I don't even know. He wasn't that happy about it. 68 00:03:20.330 --> 00:03:22.069 He'd rather you just get loaded in front of the 69 00:03:22.090 --> 00:03:22.780 Hendrix concert? 70 00:03:23.409 --> 00:03:25.509 Yeah, he would have, actually, because he was a heavy 71 00:03:25.569 --> 00:03:28.590 drinker and a construction worker, and he considered that to 72 00:03:28.620 --> 00:03:30.800 be part of the masculine experience. 73 00:03:31.139 --> 00:03:33.180 But acid? Was acid okay with him? 74 00:03:33.319 --> 00:03:35.719 I don't think he knew I was doing acid. But 75 00:03:35.800 --> 00:03:38.860 he knew I was doing weed and things like that. 76 00:03:39.020 --> 00:03:40.879 And he didn't mind that? No. 77 00:03:41.430 --> 00:03:43.289 He didn't want me doing it in the house, which 78 00:03:43.349 --> 00:03:43.650 I did. 79 00:03:44.449 --> 00:03:48.310 So your rebellion was to become an outstanding citizen and 80 00:03:48.330 --> 00:03:49.449 a Christian missionary? 81 00:03:49.900 --> 00:03:52.300 Right. That was my greatest form of rebellion against the 82 00:03:52.360 --> 00:03:53.360 life I had been leading. 83 00:03:53.800 --> 00:03:57.139 Interesting. Yeah, that's what happens when parents push their kids 84 00:03:57.159 --> 00:03:58.039 into a certain direction. 85 00:03:58.979 --> 00:03:59.400 Right, right. 86 00:03:59.439 --> 00:04:01.360 Little people don't like being told what to do. 87 00:04:01.460 --> 00:04:03.340 Yeah. 88 00:04:04.120 --> 00:04:08.560 So you immediately, it seems like, go become a Christian. 89 00:04:08.840 --> 00:04:12.210 And then how long before you are actually doing missionary 90 00:04:12.250 --> 00:04:12.909 work in the jungle? 91 00:04:13.659 --> 00:04:15.219 Well, there's a lot of training you have to do. 92 00:04:15.300 --> 00:04:17.199 So first I had to do four years of college, 93 00:04:17.819 --> 00:04:20.220 Bible and theology, and then I had to do some 94 00:04:20.240 --> 00:04:25.910 linguistics training. And then not a graduate degree or anything 95 00:04:25.930 --> 00:04:29.029 like that, just some linguistics training from the missionary organization 96 00:04:29.069 --> 00:04:32.189 because I wanted to be a Bible translator. And then 97 00:04:32.230 --> 00:04:34.910 we did jungle training in southern Mexico. So we went 98 00:04:34.949 --> 00:04:37.629 to the jungles of Chiapas and had to do survival 99 00:04:37.689 --> 00:04:38.329 training and. 100 00:04:38.490 --> 00:04:40.410 All of this. Whoa. What did you have to do there? 101 00:04:41.399 --> 00:04:44.000 Well, there are several phases to it. The family goes 102 00:04:44.079 --> 00:04:45.860 and the family is part of it. But the hardest 103 00:04:45.899 --> 00:04:49.290 thing is to really see how much you've learned. They 104 00:04:49.350 --> 00:04:51.610 take you on what's called survival hike and they leave 105 00:04:51.629 --> 00:04:53.810 you alone for about a week in the jungle. You're 106 00:04:53.850 --> 00:04:57.310 not allowed to take any food or any supplies of 107 00:04:57.370 --> 00:04:57.930 any kind. 108 00:04:58.009 --> 00:04:58.509 For a week? 109 00:04:58.810 --> 00:05:01.040 Yeah, for a week or more. You don't know. It's 110 00:05:01.060 --> 00:05:03.480 going to be at least a week. In my case, 111 00:05:03.579 --> 00:05:08.290 it was about 10 days. And you've got to set up. 112 00:05:08.810 --> 00:05:10.870 Your camp, how best you can figure out how to 113 00:05:10.910 --> 00:05:11.709 get a fire going. 114 00:05:11.740 --> 00:05:13.759 Do they teach you how to do all this stuff? 115 00:05:13.800 --> 00:05:15.360 They don't just like figure it out. 116 00:05:15.500 --> 00:05:18.759 This is like the final exam. So you've had almost 117 00:05:18.839 --> 00:05:22.139 four months of training before they finally take you out 118 00:05:22.180 --> 00:05:22.879 on this survival. 119 00:05:22.899 --> 00:05:23.740 Do you have water? 120 00:05:25.579 --> 00:05:28.310 You have maybe a quart of water when you leave, 121 00:05:29.009 --> 00:05:30.290 but you're going to be out there for 10 days. 122 00:05:30.329 --> 00:05:32.110 So you've got to find water. So we learned which 123 00:05:32.189 --> 00:05:34.810 vines have water and how to cut the vines. We 124 00:05:34.829 --> 00:05:37.350 did have a machete. So I was able to jump 125 00:05:37.449 --> 00:05:39.959 up and cut a vine out. At the top first 126 00:05:40.399 --> 00:05:41.230 and then at the bottom. 127 00:05:41.560 --> 00:05:44.230 And no one's monitoring you? They're just leaving you out 128 00:05:44.259 --> 00:05:45.990 there and they're not making sure you're okay? 129 00:05:46.209 --> 00:05:48.149 No, they just come along when the time's up. And 130 00:05:48.449 --> 00:05:49.250 if you're there, you're there. 131 00:05:49.290 --> 00:05:51.889 Oh, boy. And if you're not, you're dead? 132 00:05:52.550 --> 00:05:53.050 You could be. 133 00:05:53.889 --> 00:05:56.029 So that's insane. 134 00:05:56.610 --> 00:06:00.089 Yeah, well, this is what happens when you live by faith. 135 00:06:00.129 --> 00:06:03.689 You know, you're out there. And God's supposed to be 136 00:06:03.790 --> 00:06:06.939 supervising your training, but it's really rigorous training. So by 137 00:06:06.980 --> 00:06:09.160 the time I actually got to the Amazon, which was 138 00:06:09.259 --> 00:06:14.259 eight years after I converted, it took that long, it 139 00:06:14.300 --> 00:06:17.060 felt like I was coming home. I wasn't surprised by things. 140 00:06:17.319 --> 00:06:19.430 Well, the training was good then. I mean I would 141 00:06:19.449 --> 00:06:21.509 imagine if you really want someone to be able to 142 00:06:21.550 --> 00:06:23.970 survive alone in the jungle, the best way to do 143 00:06:23.990 --> 00:06:26.610 it is to test them by making them survive alone 144 00:06:26.649 --> 00:06:29.740 in the jungle so that you get an actual– Version 145 00:06:29.759 --> 00:06:32.800 of the experience. It's not simulated. You actually are getting 146 00:06:32.860 --> 00:06:35.120 water from vines. What were you eating? 147 00:06:36.319 --> 00:06:38.819 Well, I learned different kinds of plants that you could eat. 148 00:06:39.399 --> 00:06:42.990 And then I learned how to make with a stick, 149 00:06:43.370 --> 00:06:47.149 you know, make a stick the size of a toothpick 150 00:06:47.189 --> 00:06:50.449 sharpened on both ends. And I did have some fishing line. 151 00:06:50.470 --> 00:06:53.490 I would attach that to that. And I was so 152 00:06:53.550 --> 00:06:56.129 proud of myself because I brought up two fish that 153 00:06:56.149 --> 00:07:00.019 were about three inches long. And I ate those. Most 154 00:07:00.060 --> 00:07:02.759 of the time I ate plants and went hungry. So 155 00:07:02.800 --> 00:07:08.589 when I see the programs like Alone, that wouldn't bother me. 156 00:07:08.910 --> 00:07:10.410 That's the kind of stuff we had to do. 157 00:07:12.009 --> 00:07:13.930 They didn't even give you fish hooks? No. 158 00:07:14.189 --> 00:07:16.319 You can't have that kind of stuff. You have to 159 00:07:16.379 --> 00:07:17.860 learn to cope on your own. You've got to make 160 00:07:17.899 --> 00:07:20.339 your own. You've got to be able to recognize the plants, 161 00:07:20.399 --> 00:07:22.680 which ones are poisonous, which ones are not poisonous. 162 00:07:22.879 --> 00:07:24.439 Did you try to make like a bow and arrow 163 00:07:24.519 --> 00:07:24.800 or anything? 164 00:07:25.180 --> 00:07:25.879 Yeah, yeah. 165 00:07:26.079 --> 00:07:26.899 You did? I did. 166 00:07:26.920 --> 00:07:27.860 I made a bow and arrow. 167 00:07:28.180 --> 00:07:28.860 How did you do that? 168 00:07:30.180 --> 00:07:33.079 Well, I had a machete, and that's what I had. 169 00:07:33.550 --> 00:07:35.029 It's crazy they give you a machete. They won't give 170 00:07:35.050 --> 00:07:35.709 you fish hooks. 171 00:07:35.810 --> 00:07:36.670 Like, come on, guys. 172 00:07:36.790 --> 00:07:38.790 Yeah, yeah. Fish hooks are so much easier to carry. 173 00:07:39.209 --> 00:07:42.209 Right. But the machete you need for firewood. You need 174 00:07:42.250 --> 00:07:45.230 for lots of things. You know, when I got to 175 00:07:45.250 --> 00:07:45.870 the Amazon. 176 00:07:46.120 --> 00:07:48.709 What? Do you have a lighter? No. No. How are 177 00:07:48.730 --> 00:07:49.350 you making fires? 178 00:07:49.649 --> 00:07:53.069 Well, I had just— they let me take just a few matches. 179 00:07:53.910 --> 00:07:54.910 Oh, Lord. 180 00:07:55.250 --> 00:07:57.939 And so no lighter, but a few matches, which you 181 00:07:58.079 --> 00:08:01.639 kept in a 35-millimeter film cartridge. 182 00:08:01.860 --> 00:08:04.720 People don't know about those things, those little containers. Yeah. 183 00:08:05.000 --> 00:08:07.110 How many matches did they give you for 10 days? 184 00:08:07.850 --> 00:08:11.180 Well, you had one of those little containers with about 10, 185 00:08:11.180 --> 00:08:12.870 15 matches in it at the most. 186 00:08:12.889 --> 00:08:14.930 Oh, boy. So you've got to match a day. 187 00:08:15.129 --> 00:08:16.939 You've got to keep your fire going all the time. 188 00:08:17.069 --> 00:08:19.060 You always have to keep that fire going. So before 189 00:08:19.100 --> 00:08:22.379 you start it, you spend half the day just cutting firewood. 190 00:08:22.779 --> 00:08:24.779 And I would imagine it's very wet. 191 00:08:25.420 --> 00:08:28.680 It's all wet. So you've got to find something dry 192 00:08:28.959 --> 00:08:31.959 to get it going. And as they told us— You've 193 00:08:31.980 --> 00:08:32.659 got to keep it going. 194 00:08:32.740 --> 00:08:32.940 Yeah. 195 00:08:32.980 --> 00:08:35.590 They said once it's hot enough, it'll burn anything. But 196 00:08:35.970 --> 00:08:37.809 until it gets hot, you can't just throw that wet 197 00:08:37.870 --> 00:08:41.470 wood on there. It'll put it out. So— You know, 198 00:08:41.480 --> 00:08:43.299 you have to spend a lot of time exploring, trying 199 00:08:43.320 --> 00:08:46.480 to find dry, crackly wood and leaves and things and 200 00:08:46.500 --> 00:08:49.340 get it going. And then slowly introduce the thinner pieces 201 00:08:49.399 --> 00:08:51.840 of wet wood until finally you can throw on a 202 00:08:52.500 --> 00:08:53.379 sopping log. 203 00:08:53.539 --> 00:08:55.679 So a big part of your day essentially is making 204 00:08:55.710 --> 00:08:58.490 sure that fire stays lit. Yeah. That's a big part 205 00:08:58.509 --> 00:09:00.240 of your day. And you can't get too far from it. 206 00:09:00.649 --> 00:09:03.049 No. You have to stay fairly close to it. And 207 00:09:03.110 --> 00:09:04.970 at night you definitely want to keep it going. So 208 00:09:04.990 --> 00:09:08.370 I remember one night waking up and hearing heavy steps 209 00:09:08.470 --> 00:09:09.830 around my camp. 210 00:09:09.850 --> 00:09:10.110 Oh, yeah. 211 00:09:10.509 --> 00:09:14.500 And– I was up immediately blowing on that fire for 212 00:09:14.539 --> 00:09:16.149 everything I was worth to get that thing up. 213 00:09:16.679 --> 00:09:18.710 Yeah. Was it Jaguars? 214 00:09:20.379 --> 00:09:22.809 I suspect that it could have been, although I didn't 215 00:09:22.889 --> 00:09:25.710 see it. I had my machete, which when I got 216 00:09:25.730 --> 00:09:28.950 to the Amazon and actually saw Jaguars, I realized that 217 00:09:28.970 --> 00:09:32.149 would have been a pretty pathetic thing to try, go 218 00:09:32.190 --> 00:09:35.090 against a Jaguar with a machete. They would rip your 219 00:09:35.129 --> 00:09:35.769 head off before. 220 00:09:35.649 --> 00:09:37.490 You— Everybody likes to think they have a chance, though. 221 00:09:37.850 --> 00:09:40.679 Yeah, yeah, but— What I found out is jaguars, you know, 222 00:09:40.700 --> 00:09:43.440 they get up to 400 pounds. And they're the third 223 00:09:43.480 --> 00:09:45.679 biggest cat in the world after the lion and the tiger. 224 00:09:46.279 --> 00:09:50.690 And they often hunt in pairs. And so you wouldn't 225 00:09:50.730 --> 00:09:54.009 have a chance against a jaguar unless you were one 226 00:09:54.029 --> 00:09:57.350 of the pitahas. I know that guys alone by themselves 227 00:09:57.389 --> 00:09:58.309 have killed jaguars. 228 00:09:58.870 --> 00:10:01.090 Really? Yeah. What are they using to kill a jaguar? 229 00:10:02.070 --> 00:10:03.870 Well, they're always with their bows and arrows. 230 00:10:04.669 --> 00:10:08.340 A bow and arrow range for a jaguar. That's crazy. 231 00:10:08.360 --> 00:10:10.669 Well, you better have it ready because it sneaks up 232 00:10:10.750 --> 00:10:13.080 on you. There's another group that I worked with for 233 00:10:13.200 --> 00:10:16.519 quite a while, several months, called the Banawa, and they 234 00:10:16.600 --> 00:10:20.490 use poison darts and poisoned arrows. So there's this story 235 00:10:20.509 --> 00:10:25.539 of this guy who went out hunting, and he reached 236 00:10:25.580 --> 00:10:27.779 a clearing in the jungle, and he saw a deer 237 00:10:27.820 --> 00:10:30.360 come out running straight for him. And at first he 238 00:10:30.399 --> 00:10:32.259 was happy, and he was going to kill the deer. 239 00:10:32.279 --> 00:10:34.299 Then he realized deers don't just come running out of 240 00:10:34.320 --> 00:10:36.950 the jungle towards people. And then right behind the deer 241 00:10:37.009 --> 00:10:41.429 came a jaguar. And the jaguar saw him, the guy, 242 00:10:41.610 --> 00:10:43.529 and he was bigger than the deer, so the jaguar 243 00:10:43.570 --> 00:10:46.330 just took off straight for him and jumped up. And 244 00:10:46.490 --> 00:10:49.399 the guy got his blowgun out. Out in front of him, 245 00:10:50.259 --> 00:10:52.559 they're about seven or eight feet long, these big blowguns, 246 00:10:53.179 --> 00:10:57.100 and they're very sturdy. And the jaguar, he holds it away. 247 00:10:57.620 --> 00:11:00.620 The jaguar's back legs are tearing the meat off of 248 00:11:00.659 --> 00:11:03.710 his legs, and the jaguar's head just keeps snapping at 249 00:11:03.750 --> 00:11:06.309 his face, trying to get his face. And what saved 250 00:11:06.350 --> 00:11:09.210 his life was the jaguar jumped off to go around 251 00:11:09.230 --> 00:11:10.909 the back and try to get him from the back. 252 00:11:11.549 --> 00:11:13.409 But he had a poisoned arrow, and he stabbed the 253 00:11:13.450 --> 00:11:15.990 jaguar with it, and that hurts. And the jaguar started 254 00:11:16.009 --> 00:11:17.330 to run off, and then he shot it with a 255 00:11:17.370 --> 00:11:23.919 poisoned arrow. But he passed out and his family found 256 00:11:23.960 --> 00:11:27.940 him a couple of days later with his legs just 257 00:11:28.000 --> 00:11:30.799 infected and torn to pieces. But he survived. 258 00:11:33.679 --> 00:11:36.919 And so these Pidahad, would they go hunt the jaguars? 259 00:11:37.899 --> 00:11:40.870 If they saw that it was a danger, if a 260 00:11:40.919 --> 00:11:44.190 woman went out and a jaguar or a mountain lion 261 00:11:45.389 --> 00:11:47.490 scared her, the men would go out to kill it. 262 00:11:48.330 --> 00:11:49.350 So I've eaten jaguar. 263 00:11:49.370 --> 00:11:52.149 What does it taste like? 264 00:11:52.210 --> 00:11:56.879 Well, this one was sort of– this was a sick jaguar. 265 00:11:56.940 --> 00:11:59.179 But it's stringy meat. I mean it's very muscly meat. 266 00:11:59.220 --> 00:12:01.500 Is it a sick one? Yeah. 267 00:12:01.740 --> 00:12:04.490 That's how they wound up killing it. I found out later. 268 00:12:04.519 --> 00:12:07.169 I was really impressed. They killed a jaguar. And they 269 00:12:07.190 --> 00:12:09.169 have killed many jaguars. But this one turned out to 270 00:12:09.210 --> 00:12:11.750 be a sick jaguar, which is why he attacked the woman. 271 00:12:12.450 --> 00:12:14.090 Like he was starving to death or something? 272 00:12:14.129 --> 00:12:15.789 Yeah. He was starving. So the men killed it. 273 00:12:16.309 --> 00:12:16.679 And ate it. 274 00:12:16.710 --> 00:12:18.909 But I did, my children were with me this whole time. 275 00:12:19.000 --> 00:12:21.980 So I told my children, I said, just remember who's 276 00:12:22.080 --> 00:12:24.860 eating whom out here. 277 00:12:24.899 --> 00:12:26.159 So do you remember what it tastes like? 278 00:12:27.379 --> 00:12:30.379 Well, it's a stringy meat. It's really hard to describe 279 00:12:30.480 --> 00:12:31.539 all the taste. 280 00:12:32.230 --> 00:12:33.450 Like very sinewy? 281 00:12:33.470 --> 00:12:38.570 It's tough. Yeah, sinewy and very tough. And my general 282 00:12:38.590 --> 00:12:41.289 rule of thumb, I eat anything that they kill. But 283 00:12:41.429 --> 00:12:43.250 my general rule of thumb is I usually have a 284 00:12:43.389 --> 00:12:46.750 bottle of Tabasco sauce and If you put Tabasco sauce 285 00:12:46.789 --> 00:12:47.529 on it, it's okay. 286 00:12:48.169 --> 00:12:51.820 And so these pitahas, am I saying it right? Yeah, 287 00:12:52.009 --> 00:12:55.799 that's right. They don't preserve anything, right? No. They just 288 00:12:56.500 --> 00:12:57.539 kill things and cook them. 289 00:12:58.080 --> 00:13:01.500 Yeah, they don't, you know, many, many different groups smoke 290 00:13:01.539 --> 00:13:04.080 the meat or salt the meat if they have salt 291 00:13:05.000 --> 00:13:08.259 or dry it. And the pitahas know how to do that. 292 00:13:08.360 --> 00:13:09.659 I don't know where they learn how to do it 293 00:13:09.700 --> 00:13:11.899 because they never do it except if they want to 294 00:13:11.960 --> 00:13:14.830 trade the meat with Brazilian boats who come up. But 295 00:13:14.870 --> 00:13:17.370 among themselves, they don't preserve any meat. You know, I 296 00:13:17.409 --> 00:13:20.240 was talking to a guy one time and, you know, 297 00:13:20.279 --> 00:13:22.340 why don't you preserve your meat? And he says, oh, 298 00:13:22.399 --> 00:13:24.200 I preserve it in the belly of my brother. So 299 00:13:25.899 --> 00:13:28.240 they share it. And if I get meat, I give 300 00:13:28.259 --> 00:13:30.000 you some. And if you get meat, you give me some. 301 00:13:30.039 --> 00:13:30.679 So why would I? 302 00:13:31.059 --> 00:13:33.600 Right. So there's no need to store. And also, I 303 00:13:33.860 --> 00:13:36.679 guess it's very abundant. There's a lot of life where 304 00:13:36.730 --> 00:13:39.049 they live, like in terms of fish and game. 305 00:13:39.690 --> 00:13:40.269 There have been. 306 00:13:40.289 --> 00:13:40.470 Yeah. 307 00:13:40.509 --> 00:13:43.009 I mean, they live on this river, the Micey River. 308 00:13:43.779 --> 00:13:46.740 And they're the only humans that live along the river 309 00:13:47.240 --> 00:13:51.259 for almost 300 miles of the curvy river. And it's 310 00:13:51.340 --> 00:13:54.399 a relatively large river by U.S. standards. In Brazil, it 311 00:13:54.440 --> 00:13:56.799 doesn't even make many of the maps. But it's a 312 00:13:56.840 --> 00:14:00.279 couple of hundred yards across. And in the rainy season, 313 00:14:00.320 --> 00:14:04.470 it can be as much as 75 feet deep, 100 314 00:14:04.470 --> 00:14:08.230 feet deep. So there's plenty of fish for them. In 315 00:14:08.289 --> 00:14:12.070 recent years, that's changed because the Brazilian … Government has 316 00:14:12.110 --> 00:14:16.309 allowed the construction of dams across various rivers. Not their river, 317 00:14:16.370 --> 00:14:19.509 but they affect the water level so much that it's 318 00:14:19.570 --> 00:14:21.549 taken all the fish, most of the fish out of 319 00:14:21.590 --> 00:14:24.580 their river. So now they're starving. And this has led 320 00:14:24.700 --> 00:14:28.820 to conflict with Brazilians who live not too far away. 321 00:14:28.899 --> 00:14:31.700 And they've killed a few people stealing food from their 322 00:14:31.799 --> 00:14:33.960 farms and things. Oh, man. 323 00:14:33.980 --> 00:14:38.730 Can you imagine? You just have this. kind of harmonious 324 00:14:38.809 --> 00:14:41.840 existence with nature and someone just decides to make a dam. 325 00:14:41.860 --> 00:14:44.340 Like you've got it so dialed in that you don't 326 00:14:44.360 --> 00:14:47.100 need to preserve your food. Right. Because everyone's just like 327 00:14:47.159 --> 00:14:50.740 happy and eating fish right out of the river. Right. 328 00:14:51.320 --> 00:14:55.100 And, you know, that's, they don't know where the dam is. 329 00:14:55.139 --> 00:14:57.480 They've never seen the dam. I told them that they 330 00:14:57.500 --> 00:15:00.580 built something that crosses the river like a wall. And 331 00:15:01.610 --> 00:15:03.809 they say, why do they do that? And I said, well, 332 00:15:03.830 --> 00:15:07.250 they want electricity, which they barely understand. They've seen I 333 00:15:07.289 --> 00:15:09.919 have a generator. I never had one for the first 334 00:15:09.919 --> 00:15:13.000 20 years I was working with them, but I eventually 335 00:15:13.039 --> 00:15:15.159 got a generator and they could see what electricity was. 336 00:15:15.220 --> 00:15:17.700 And I said, so that's where they get the lights. 337 00:15:19.139 --> 00:15:22.649 But they don't understand it. And it's for the first 338 00:15:22.710 --> 00:15:24.769 time in their history, and they've been living there as 339 00:15:24.789 --> 00:15:28.090 far as I can tell for almost 300 years on 340 00:15:28.110 --> 00:15:31.720 this one river. For the first time in their history, 341 00:15:31.750 --> 00:15:36.500 they can't be self-sufficient in proteins. 342 00:15:38.029 --> 00:15:40.889 That's crazy. And how long ago did they build this dam? 343 00:15:42.490 --> 00:15:45.529 I think it was about 10 years ago. But they 344 00:15:45.610 --> 00:15:49.669 didn't– when it first went into operation, then it flooded 345 00:15:50.070 --> 00:15:54.009 the entire– lots of farmland, lots of settlements and things 346 00:15:54.090 --> 00:15:56.269 up on the Madeira. But what was shocking was that 347 00:15:56.909 --> 00:16:01.269 way downriver from the dam, it affected the water level 348 00:16:01.370 --> 00:16:06.230 so much that when their river, the Maise, goes to 349 00:16:06.289 --> 00:16:12.240 its lowest point– in the dry season, there's still only 350 00:16:12.279 --> 00:16:14.759 a few places where you can see the bottom of 351 00:16:14.779 --> 00:16:16.620 the river. Most of the places, even when it's at 352 00:16:16.679 --> 00:16:18.590 its lowest, you can't see the bottom of the river. 353 00:16:19.610 --> 00:16:21.710 But in the last couple of years, it's gotten so 354 00:16:21.730 --> 00:16:22.789 low you can walk across. 355 00:16:23.610 --> 00:16:24.549 Oh, wow. 356 00:16:24.690 --> 00:16:25.830 And the fish don't stay there. 357 00:16:28.120 --> 00:16:29.200 So what are these people eating? 358 00:16:30.240 --> 00:16:33.460 Well, they go hunting, which they don't like to do. But, 359 00:16:33.539 --> 00:16:35.960 of course, when the fish are gone and when the 360 00:16:36.019 --> 00:16:38.629 river is gone, You lose a lot of the game 361 00:16:38.669 --> 00:16:40.659 from the jungle. So they have to go– instead of 362 00:16:40.700 --> 00:16:43.559 going a mile into the jungle, they have to go 363 00:16:43.620 --> 00:16:46.720 many miles into the jungle and they're still not successful. 364 00:16:46.820 --> 00:16:50.679 So it's busting up communities. Some people are moving out 365 00:16:50.720 --> 00:16:54.330 of their normal area to other areas to try to– 366 00:16:54.580 --> 00:16:57.580 back on bigger rivers. But then that means they're surrounded 367 00:16:57.639 --> 00:17:01.159 by Brazilians and they're no longer leading the life that 368 00:17:01.179 --> 00:17:01.879 they used to lead. 369 00:17:04.019 --> 00:17:08.289 So– When they move into these civilization areas, are they 370 00:17:08.509 --> 00:17:11.910 integrating or are they trying to like stay as a 371 00:17:11.990 --> 00:17:15.799 tribe removed from urban society? Like how are they doing it? 372 00:17:16.289 --> 00:17:20.490 Well, up until about five years ago, they would never 373 00:17:20.549 --> 00:17:24.279 have thought about integrating. They would live in like ghettos. 374 00:17:24.390 --> 00:17:27.359 If they were out near some town, they would live 375 00:17:27.380 --> 00:17:29.579 in the jungle away from the town because that whole 376 00:17:29.599 --> 00:17:32.140 part of Brazil is covered in jungle. Even the cities 377 00:17:32.220 --> 00:17:33.259 are bordered by jungle. 378 00:17:33.279 --> 00:17:33.700 Right. 379 00:17:34.230 --> 00:17:38.250 But nowadays, because there's no food anywhere, they're trying to 380 00:17:38.329 --> 00:17:44.250 integrate more. They're trying to learn Portuguese. And it's a 381 00:17:44.269 --> 00:17:47.730 very unfortunate situation for them right now. 382 00:17:48.109 --> 00:17:52.769 That's such a bummer. That sucks so hard. So when 383 00:17:52.930 --> 00:17:58.430 you first got there, your aim was to try to 384 00:17:58.450 --> 00:17:59.609 convert them to Christianity. 385 00:17:59.849 --> 00:18:02.410 That's right. I went there to translate the Bible and 386 00:18:02.430 --> 00:18:04.450 to plant a church and get everybody believing. 387 00:18:04.529 --> 00:18:06.950 And why Pitaha? Why did you go to those people? 388 00:18:07.430 --> 00:18:10.519 Well, we were in our training, and the missionary organization, 389 00:18:10.579 --> 00:18:14.759 the Wycliffe Bible Translators, offered us three areas. They said 390 00:18:14.779 --> 00:18:16.460 you can go to New Guinea. We need people in 391 00:18:16.500 --> 00:18:19.839 New Guinea. You can go to Mexico, or you can 392 00:18:19.880 --> 00:18:22.660 go to Brazil. And in Brazil, there's this tribe called 393 00:18:22.680 --> 00:18:25.970 the Pitaha. that we've had two teams assigned to, and 394 00:18:26.009 --> 00:18:28.190 nobody's been able to figure out the language because it's 395 00:18:28.230 --> 00:18:31.859 not related to any other known living language. And so 396 00:18:31.920 --> 00:18:33.680 they said, if you're up for that challenge, and we 397 00:18:33.720 --> 00:18:36.559 know you did well in linguistics, we'd be happy to 398 00:18:36.599 --> 00:18:39.859 have you take that group. So I thought, well, sure, 399 00:18:39.900 --> 00:18:41.500 I'm up for a challenge. So we took that. 400 00:18:42.329 --> 00:18:43.809 And so this was 1977? 1977. We were assigned there 401 00:18:43.829 --> 00:18:45.849 in 76, and I made my first trip in in 402 00:18:45.869 --> 00:18:54.710 December of 1977. And so how much of the language 403 00:18:54.769 --> 00:18:58.329 did you know before you got there? Nothing. Nothing? 404 00:18:58.470 --> 00:18:59.029 No. 405 00:18:59.089 --> 00:19:02.049 What do we know in terms of like before you 406 00:19:02.089 --> 00:19:05.410 got there? Was it recorded? Was it something that people understood? 407 00:19:06.220 --> 00:19:09.519 Take your training to the next level with AG1' s new product, 408 00:19:09.859 --> 00:19:13.279 AG1 Pro. It's back, and it's already sold out once, 409 00:19:13.509 --> 00:19:18.109 so get it now. AG1 Pro takes the original next-gen formula, 410 00:19:18.170 --> 00:19:23.430 the vitamins, minerals, adaptogens, pre- and probiotics, and more, and 411 00:19:23.549 --> 00:19:27.109 packs in even more support for physical performance. It adds 412 00:19:27.109 --> 00:19:32.420 5 grams of CreaVitalis creatine monohydrate and HMB, to reduce 413 00:19:32.500 --> 00:19:37.269 protein breakdown and support recovery. They've also added zinc carnosine 414 00:19:37.309 --> 00:19:40.789 for even more gut support. It's one drink, more effective, 415 00:19:40.869 --> 00:19:44.180 and it's NSF certified for sport so you know exactly 416 00:19:44.299 --> 00:19:47.740 what's in it. The training's only half of it. Recovery 417 00:19:47.859 --> 00:19:51.539 is where the gains actually compound. AG1 Pro is built 418 00:19:51.700 --> 00:19:56.779 for both. Go to drinkag1. com slash joerogan to get a 419 00:19:56.859 --> 00:20:05.660 free AG1 Pro Shaker in your Pro Welcome Kit. That's drinkag1. com 420 00:20:03.759 --> 00:20:04.960 slash joerogan. 421 00:20:05.579 --> 00:20:11.920 Yeah, in 1784... Portuguese explorers made contact, and they didn't 422 00:20:12.000 --> 00:20:15.880 take lists of words. They wrote a few descriptive things 423 00:20:15.960 --> 00:20:19.490 about the language and about the people, and those things 424 00:20:19.529 --> 00:20:24.609 still fit them today. And then in 1821, a German 425 00:20:24.650 --> 00:20:26.990 explorer went there, and he took a long list of words, 426 00:20:27.170 --> 00:20:30.250 which was amazing because he didn't have linguistics or anything 427 00:20:30.289 --> 00:20:35.119 like that, and his list of words is pretty good. 428 00:20:36.240 --> 00:20:42.420 And then in 1920— Another German who naturalized Brazilian, the 429 00:20:42.460 --> 00:20:46.269 founder of Brazilian anthropology, went there and took a much 430 00:20:46.369 --> 00:20:50.089 larger word list and that one is very good. And 431 00:20:50.130 --> 00:20:52.029 so I had those little word lists. They're not much 432 00:20:52.170 --> 00:20:54.670 and there's no how does the grammar work or anything 433 00:20:54.710 --> 00:20:57.559 like that. It's just a list of words. So I 434 00:20:57.599 --> 00:21:01.579 had looked at those but it's a tone language and 435 00:21:01.640 --> 00:21:03.299 so they hadn't written the tone so I had no 436 00:21:03.359 --> 00:21:06.390 idea how to pronounce the words. To give you an 437 00:21:06.410 --> 00:21:10.279 example of what a tone language is, so if I 438 00:21:10.319 --> 00:21:13.839 want to say friend, I say magiai. And if I 439 00:21:13.859 --> 00:21:17.539 want to say enemy, it's magiai. 440 00:21:18.640 --> 00:21:19.380 What's the difference? 441 00:21:19.569 --> 00:21:22.829 So if I whistle it, friend is whoop, whoop, whoop. 442 00:21:22.849 --> 00:21:25.049 And if I whistle enemy, it's whoop. 443 00:21:25.069 --> 00:21:26.289 Whoop, whoop. 444 00:21:26.309 --> 00:21:28.769 If you can't hear the tones, you don't know what's 445 00:21:28.789 --> 00:21:35.029 going on. So the word for me is chie. And 446 00:21:35.049 --> 00:21:38.809 the word for shit is je. So, you know, you 447 00:21:38.829 --> 00:21:41.769 can be talking about yourself and everybody starts laughing because 448 00:21:41.789 --> 00:21:43.950 you've called yourself shit. 449 00:21:44.890 --> 00:21:45.970 Because you have the wrong tone. 450 00:21:46.109 --> 00:21:48.250 Because you have the wrong tone. So, you know, there 451 00:21:48.269 --> 00:21:50.230 are a lot of tone languages in the world. Mandarin 452 00:21:50.250 --> 00:21:53.589 is tonal. Korean is somewhat tonal. And many languages of 453 00:21:53.710 --> 00:21:56.569 Africa are tonal. But for those of us who speak 454 00:21:56.670 --> 00:22:00.269 European languages, this is just really weird and it's hard 455 00:22:00.809 --> 00:22:01.210 to hear. 456 00:22:01.230 --> 00:22:03.910 A complete mind shift. Yeah. 457 00:22:04.809 --> 00:22:07.430 So you've got to be able to pay attention to 458 00:22:07.470 --> 00:22:11.950 those tones. But the first thing you have to do 459 00:22:12.029 --> 00:22:14.279 is start just collecting words. So I would point at 460 00:22:14.319 --> 00:22:17.119 things my first day, my first hour. I was pointing 461 00:22:17.180 --> 00:22:19.119 at things and writing down what they said, and that 462 00:22:19.160 --> 00:22:22.099 was the basic linguistics I had had, phonetics, how to 463 00:22:22.140 --> 00:22:24.859 write down sounds of the world's languages. 464 00:22:25.829 --> 00:22:29.410 And when you got there, so on day one, how 465 00:22:29.450 --> 00:22:32.049 do you make a connection? Do you just show up? Hey, 466 00:22:32.130 --> 00:22:34.630 brought you the Bible. Everyone have a seat. How do 467 00:22:34.650 --> 00:22:35.230 you do this? 468 00:22:35.420 --> 00:22:39.059 Well, I got off and I started handing candy to 469 00:22:39.099 --> 00:22:39.500 the kids. 470 00:22:40.220 --> 00:22:40.599 Good move. 471 00:22:40.700 --> 00:22:45.579 That works. And the people were very curious because I'm 472 00:22:45.619 --> 00:22:48.990 this white guy with red hair. At that time, I 473 00:22:49.029 --> 00:22:51.890 had bright red hair and they found me curious to 474 00:22:51.930 --> 00:22:55.170 look at. And so they came around. They could tell, 475 00:22:55.630 --> 00:22:57.549 you know, at least I think they thought they could 476 00:22:57.569 --> 00:23:00.680 tell that I was no danger to them. They know 477 00:23:00.720 --> 00:23:02.880 how to deal with that very quickly if they sense danger. 478 00:23:04.660 --> 00:23:06.619 So then I would just start pointing at things. I 479 00:23:07.109 --> 00:23:10.990 had my pen and paper, and I would get a stick, 480 00:23:11.170 --> 00:23:14.769 and I would say in English, you know, stick. And 481 00:23:14.809 --> 00:23:16.750 they know that I'm trying to communicate something, so they 482 00:23:16.769 --> 00:23:20.509 would say back, eh. And I thought, it probably means stick. 483 00:23:20.730 --> 00:23:22.170 And I would write that down. And then I would 484 00:23:22.210 --> 00:23:25.789 take the stick and drop it. And they would say, eh. 485 00:23:26.430 --> 00:23:28.579 And that means stick fell to the ground. And that's 486 00:23:28.599 --> 00:23:31.349 what I thought it meant. So that's how I started. 487 00:23:32.410 --> 00:23:35.490 That's what you thought it meant. What is the reaction 488 00:23:35.539 --> 00:23:38.839 to this person coming in and demanding that they teach 489 00:23:39.039 --> 00:23:39.700 the language? 490 00:23:40.980 --> 00:23:42.140 Well, I didn't demand. 491 00:23:42.339 --> 00:23:45.640 Well, you know, you have a requirement. You can't communicate, 492 00:23:45.660 --> 00:23:49.160 but you're there. So they're kind enough to welcome you. Yes. 493 00:23:49.599 --> 00:23:52.180 Are you in the actual camp with all these people? 494 00:23:52.200 --> 00:23:53.839 Yeah, I'm in the middle of their village. The plane 495 00:23:53.859 --> 00:23:56.140 let me off on, you know, landed on the river. 496 00:23:56.599 --> 00:23:57.039 I got out. 497 00:23:57.059 --> 00:24:00.130 You don't even ask. You just like. wander into their camp? 498 00:24:00.230 --> 00:24:01.809 There's no way to contact them ahead of time. 499 00:24:01.950 --> 00:24:04.630 This is crazy. Yeah. And you're just assuming they're not 500 00:24:04.670 --> 00:24:05.730 going to kill you. Is this you? 501 00:24:06.309 --> 00:24:08.289 This is the Pitaha. This is a Pitaha village. 502 00:24:08.329 --> 00:24:10.170 Yep. And so this is what it looked like when 503 00:24:10.190 --> 00:24:12.349 you showed up. You're like, hi, what's a stick? 504 00:24:12.650 --> 00:24:12.869 Yeah. 505 00:24:12.890 --> 00:24:13.029 Yeah. 506 00:24:13.069 --> 00:24:15.670 You land, you land on the river and, and you 507 00:24:15.690 --> 00:24:20.740 get there and that is, uh, that's the Pitaha. Wow. And, um, wow. 508 00:24:20.839 --> 00:24:25.599 So they're very friendly and they start talking. Um, But, 509 00:24:25.619 --> 00:24:27.099 of course, I don't know what they say. They just 510 00:24:27.140 --> 00:24:28.059 see me as a very. 511 00:24:28.079 --> 00:24:30.180 Guy's got a Ferrari t-shirt on. What's up? 512 00:24:30.640 --> 00:24:35.619 Yeah, they— riverboats go in and give clothes. If a riverboat 513 00:24:35.660 --> 00:24:37.680 hasn't been there in a long time, they'll all be naked. 514 00:24:38.319 --> 00:24:44.759 Oh, wow. So— And so, like, day one, they just 515 00:24:45.539 --> 00:24:49.109 accept the fact that this redheaded dude just showed up 516 00:24:49.180 --> 00:24:50.160 and is hanging out with us now? 517 00:24:50.980 --> 00:24:52.670 Yeah, there were a couple of things that counted in 518 00:24:52.690 --> 00:24:55.799 my favor. I was all by myself, and so— Giving 519 00:24:55.839 --> 00:25:00.000 out candy was a big factor. They like to chew tobacco. 520 00:25:00.960 --> 00:25:03.039 And I had been told this by somebody who had 521 00:25:03.059 --> 00:25:05.940 been there. So I took in a big, long horn 522 00:25:06.000 --> 00:25:07.519 of tobacco. I don't know if it was a really 523 00:25:07.579 --> 00:25:09.160 old-fashioned way to– A horn? 524 00:25:09.380 --> 00:25:11.380 Yes. Like an animal horn? No. 525 00:25:11.480 --> 00:25:15.720 It looks like an animal horn. But it's probably eight feet, 526 00:25:15.809 --> 00:25:20.849 nine feet long, just rolled up tight tobacco wrapped in latex. Really? 527 00:25:21.150 --> 00:25:21.369 Yeah. 528 00:25:21.450 --> 00:25:23.069 And you just cut it off for them and they 529 00:25:23.109 --> 00:25:27.809 chew it and they like it. So– I would, you know, 530 00:25:27.849 --> 00:25:30.109 the ones who would help me, I would give them 531 00:25:30.170 --> 00:25:33.690 a little bit of tobacco or candy. And I also 532 00:25:33.750 --> 00:25:38.640 brought canned food for me. And I would trade that 533 00:25:38.700 --> 00:25:41.359 to them for fish and other things that they got. 534 00:25:42.279 --> 00:25:42.900 And they liked that. 535 00:25:43.180 --> 00:25:44.539 How long did you stay initially? 536 00:25:45.400 --> 00:25:47.779 The first time was just to see what it was 537 00:25:47.839 --> 00:25:50.359 like before I brought my family. So I stayed 10 days. 538 00:25:51.079 --> 00:25:53.079 And then I came back with my family and we 539 00:25:53.160 --> 00:25:55.640 stayed a year at that time. We just stayed there 540 00:25:55.680 --> 00:25:56.140 the whole year. 541 00:25:56.710 --> 00:25:59.720 When you say family, so your wife and how many kids? 542 00:25:59.920 --> 00:26:00.839 Three kids. There they are. 543 00:26:00.880 --> 00:26:02.220 How old were the kids when you got there? 544 00:26:02.359 --> 00:26:06.099 Well, my oldest daughter, who there was about 12, was nine, 545 00:26:06.460 --> 00:26:09.460 and the middle daughter was six, and then my son 546 00:26:09.519 --> 00:26:14.420 was three years old. So this is around that time. 547 00:26:16.119 --> 00:26:19.289 And so my kids grew up among the Pitahon. Both 548 00:26:19.369 --> 00:26:22.009 my older daughters learned to speak the language fairly quickly. 549 00:26:22.470 --> 00:26:27.430 Wow, that's a risky move. You brought your little kids 550 00:26:27.470 --> 00:26:31.299 to the jungle. What is that decision like? Was that 551 00:26:31.319 --> 00:26:32.160 a difficult decision? 552 00:26:32.819 --> 00:26:34.859 Well, today it would be, but I was a Christian 553 00:26:35.160 --> 00:26:37.480 and I believed in miracles and I believed God would 554 00:26:37.519 --> 00:26:40.200 take care of us. And so I went there and 555 00:26:40.299 --> 00:26:42.549 figured he was in charge. He would take care of us. 556 00:26:42.599 --> 00:26:47.890 So my son got meningitis. My two daughters got malaria. 557 00:26:49.329 --> 00:26:52.029 I got malaria. In fact, after a few years, I 558 00:26:52.069 --> 00:26:54.740 went to San Diego and I I came down with 559 00:26:54.779 --> 00:26:59.660 malaria in University Hospital San Diego. They were thrilled because 560 00:26:59.700 --> 00:27:01.519 I was the only person they'd ever seen with all 561 00:27:01.559 --> 00:27:04.670 three strains of South American malaria at the same time. 562 00:27:05.109 --> 00:27:09.549 Did you have a relapse of malaria? Because I have 563 00:27:09.589 --> 00:27:13.029 a friend who got malaria in the Congo, and it 564 00:27:13.089 --> 00:27:13.769 came back. 565 00:27:14.809 --> 00:27:16.990 It can come back, and I've had relapses, but it's 566 00:27:17.049 --> 00:27:19.359 been a long time now that I haven't had relapses. 567 00:27:19.970 --> 00:27:23.759 I've taken so much medicine that supposedly— It won't come 568 00:27:23.799 --> 00:27:25.940 back anymore. But I can never give blood because it's 569 00:27:26.000 --> 00:27:26.819 always in my blood. 570 00:27:27.579 --> 00:27:29.740 What do they give you? Like what medicine they give you? 571 00:27:29.779 --> 00:27:35.900 Well, Daraprim, Primaquin, straight quinine. When my wife almost died, 572 00:27:37.259 --> 00:27:42.700 she weighed 115 pounds. And then she got malaria and 573 00:27:42.740 --> 00:27:47.000 almost died. She got down to 76 pounds. And the 574 00:27:47.039 --> 00:27:48.880 doctor told me she's going to die tonight. We don't 575 00:27:48.920 --> 00:27:50.099 have any way to keep her alive. 576 00:27:50.119 --> 00:27:50.859 Oh, my God. 577 00:27:50.880 --> 00:27:54.539 Yeah. They put her on blood transfusions because you lose 578 00:27:54.579 --> 00:27:56.660 a lot of blood. It kills the blood cells. And 579 00:27:57.579 --> 00:28:01.160 they put her on blood transfusions and also straight quinine, 580 00:28:01.220 --> 00:28:04.809 which caused her to be in agony for several days 581 00:28:04.980 --> 00:28:09.390 of just constant retching. And quinine is a really bad experience. 582 00:28:10.190 --> 00:28:11.349 But at the end of it, she pulled through. 583 00:28:11.470 --> 00:28:12.089 She pulled through. 584 00:28:12.109 --> 00:28:13.250 Oh, my God. Yeah. 585 00:28:13.869 --> 00:28:15.269 We all pulled through. 586 00:28:15.369 --> 00:28:18.440 You had to be like questioning your decisions. I mean 587 00:28:18.680 --> 00:28:21.569 this has to be a trialing process. you know, very 588 00:28:21.630 --> 00:28:25.170 difficult time because you chose to be there. 589 00:28:26.130 --> 00:28:29.660 Yeah. And so we were leaving the village to find 590 00:28:29.700 --> 00:28:32.660 help because my wife and daughter were dying of malaria 591 00:28:32.779 --> 00:28:34.819 at this time where she got down to 76 pounds. 592 00:28:34.839 --> 00:28:37.299 And my daughter lost a lot of weight too. She 593 00:28:37.319 --> 00:28:42.250 was just skin and bones. And I'm getting my boat 594 00:28:42.329 --> 00:28:43.809 out of there. And I had never been out by boat. 595 00:28:43.829 --> 00:28:45.769 In fact, I didn't have a boat. We were, I 596 00:28:45.809 --> 00:28:47.250 had no idea how to get out of there. So 597 00:28:47.289 --> 00:28:50.349 this Catholic priest came up to see what the Protestant 598 00:28:50.369 --> 00:28:53.490 missionaries were doing. And I said, can I borrow your boat? 599 00:28:53.589 --> 00:28:54.869 I've got to get my family out of here. He 600 00:28:54.890 --> 00:28:58.650 had this very narrow aluminum canoe with a six-horsepower Johnson. 601 00:28:59.390 --> 00:29:01.920 And I got my whole family in there, and he 602 00:29:01.960 --> 00:29:04.339 just stayed there in the jungle and let my family 603 00:29:04.380 --> 00:29:08.220 take off in his boat. And I didn't know where 604 00:29:08.259 --> 00:29:09.779 we were, but I was thinking, you know, I've read 605 00:29:09.799 --> 00:29:12.720 all these books about missionaries, and now I'm having a 606 00:29:12.740 --> 00:29:17.579 missionary experience. But it wasn't fun. It was really— That 607 00:29:17.599 --> 00:29:20.339 sounds horrific. It was a horrific experience, and I just 608 00:29:20.380 --> 00:29:21.480 didn't know what was going to happen. 609 00:29:23.069 --> 00:29:26.609 So your goal was to convert these people, and how 610 00:29:26.650 --> 00:29:27.569 long were you there for? 611 00:29:29.150 --> 00:29:32.029 Well, I was there— in 1980, I spent the whole year there. 612 00:29:32.049 --> 00:29:34.150 In all the other years, from 1977 to 2013, I 613 00:29:34.170 --> 00:29:40.740 was there for three to six months. months every year 614 00:29:41.900 --> 00:29:45.980 so i was there a lot and um got sick 615 00:29:46.019 --> 00:29:48.480 every time i went i had typhoid fever and all 616 00:29:48.500 --> 00:29:53.430 this stuff but um uh attacked by snakes and stuff 617 00:29:53.450 --> 00:29:59.849 like that but um It was just a mind-altering experience. 618 00:29:59.970 --> 00:30:04.450 Things didn't go the way I thought. And the people 619 00:30:04.509 --> 00:30:08.630 started questioning me. They started asking me about, why do 620 00:30:08.650 --> 00:30:10.869 you believe in this Jesus you keep telling us about? 621 00:30:10.910 --> 00:30:11.549 What's he like? 622 00:30:12.579 --> 00:30:17.079 And you're doing this also, you're translating these concepts from 623 00:30:17.259 --> 00:30:18.500 English to Pidaha. 624 00:30:18.880 --> 00:30:22.480 From Greek to Pidaha. Going from the Greek New Testament, 625 00:30:22.500 --> 00:30:24.579 because I was translating the New Testament, so going from 626 00:30:24.640 --> 00:30:29.029 Greek to Pitaha, but I'm referencing English and Portuguese at 627 00:30:29.069 --> 00:30:29.740 the same time. 628 00:30:29.849 --> 00:30:30.509 Oh, my goodness. 629 00:30:30.890 --> 00:30:31.650 I'm staying in there. 630 00:30:31.849 --> 00:30:35.210 And you expect these people to understand what you're saying. Yeah. 631 00:30:35.269 --> 00:30:36.829 So, you know, if you're in the middle of the 632 00:30:36.869 --> 00:30:41.190 jungle and Jesus does something out in a desert, how 633 00:30:41.210 --> 00:30:42.230 do you describe desert? 634 00:30:42.619 --> 00:30:46.460 Isn't their language a completely different language than ours? Like 635 00:30:46.519 --> 00:30:50.180 in terms of like they have no words for color. Right. 636 00:30:50.200 --> 00:30:51.980 They have no words for direction. They don't have a 637 00:30:52.019 --> 00:30:52.740 left or a right. 638 00:30:52.920 --> 00:30:56.240 Right. So— And this all takes time to find out 639 00:30:56.299 --> 00:30:58.279 because when I went there, I thought everybody had words 640 00:30:58.319 --> 00:31:01.059 for colors. Everybody had words for numbers. Everybody had a 641 00:31:01.099 --> 00:31:02.019 concept of God. 642 00:31:02.039 --> 00:31:05.200 Right. They don't have words for numbers. That's so crazy. 643 00:31:05.220 --> 00:31:05.839 Yeah, they don't have. 644 00:31:06.359 --> 00:31:07.299 Do they have numbers? 645 00:31:07.759 --> 00:31:08.880 No, no numbers. 646 00:31:09.140 --> 00:31:11.519 So how many fish did you catch today, Mike? 647 00:31:12.680 --> 00:31:13.000 A lot. 648 00:31:13.460 --> 00:31:13.740 That's it. 649 00:31:14.079 --> 00:31:14.339 That's it. 650 00:31:14.339 --> 00:31:15.240 A lot or a little. 651 00:31:15.319 --> 00:31:15.980 A lot or a little. 652 00:31:17.119 --> 00:31:17.759 Or a good amount. 653 00:31:18.039 --> 00:31:23.089 Yeah, yeah. So in fact, that claim was really controversial. 654 00:31:23.109 --> 00:31:27.390 I've had psycholinguists and cognitive scientists come down with me 655 00:31:27.410 --> 00:31:28.410 to do experiments. 656 00:31:28.450 --> 00:31:30.259 Didn't you get into it with Chomsky about that? 657 00:31:31.140 --> 00:31:34.440 Well, I got into it with Chomsky about their grammar. 658 00:31:35.079 --> 00:31:36.240 Yes. Oh, that's right. 659 00:31:36.339 --> 00:31:39.859 Chomsky made this claim. I've gotten other people. There have 660 00:31:39.920 --> 00:31:42.500 been people who find every claim controversial. So there's some 661 00:31:42.519 --> 00:31:44.900 people can't believe they don't have numbers. Some people who 662 00:31:44.940 --> 00:31:47.410 don't believe they don't have a concept of God. Other 663 00:31:47.430 --> 00:31:49.789 people who believe they don't, who don't believe they don't 664 00:31:49.829 --> 00:31:55.130 have colors. Um, but, um, Chomsky claimed that all languages 665 00:31:55.230 --> 00:32:00.390 are built on a common property called recursion. And recursion 666 00:32:00.450 --> 00:32:03.609 is this, English has it all over the place. So 667 00:32:03.970 --> 00:32:08.289 it's the ability to put one unit inside another unit 668 00:32:08.349 --> 00:32:10.690 of the same type. So take a noun. If I 669 00:32:10.730 --> 00:32:14.619 take the noun truck and the noun driver and I 670 00:32:14.660 --> 00:32:17.380 put them together, I can form a third word, truck driver. 671 00:32:18.119 --> 00:32:20.779 And so that's recursion. I put one noun inside another 672 00:32:20.799 --> 00:32:22.880 and I get a third noun. Or with a sentence, 673 00:32:22.940 --> 00:32:26.289 I can say John spoke. There's no recursion there. I 674 00:32:26.329 --> 00:32:29.910 can say John said that Bill spoke. And now that's 675 00:32:29.950 --> 00:32:34.589 got recursion because Bill spoke is a sentence inside John 676 00:32:34.670 --> 00:32:39.359 said that. And so Chomsky claimed, and in my opinion, 677 00:32:39.420 --> 00:32:42.299 without doing a lot of homework on this, I mean, 678 00:32:42.319 --> 00:32:45.240 he just was basing it on languages that he happened 679 00:32:45.319 --> 00:32:49.519 to know, which aren't many, that all languages were built 680 00:32:49.599 --> 00:32:51.940 on this. It made sense. And he had a principles 681 00:32:52.029 --> 00:32:54.769 built into his theory that required this. So when I 682 00:32:54.809 --> 00:32:57.869 came along and said they don't have it, and now 683 00:32:57.910 --> 00:33:00.259 I know there are other languages that don't have it, 684 00:33:02.049 --> 00:33:06.049 this was like saying you're wrong. And for me, a 685 00:33:06.769 --> 00:33:10.710 relative nobody, to tell the most famous linguist in history, 686 00:33:11.069 --> 00:33:13.589 somebody that Chomsky was called by the New York Times 687 00:33:13.630 --> 00:33:18.109 the most important intellectual alive, to tell him that he's wrong, 688 00:33:19.730 --> 00:33:25.349 a lot of people found that very Weird, you know, unbelievable. Yeah, problematic. 689 00:33:25.410 --> 00:33:28.730 But facts are facts. Yeah. I mean, it should be 690 00:33:28.769 --> 00:33:31.990 exciting for a linguist to look at something that violates 691 00:33:32.109 --> 00:33:33.730 all the laws of other known languages. 692 00:33:33.910 --> 00:33:37.789 It was exciting for some linguists and really off pissing 693 00:33:37.849 --> 00:33:39.049 for a lot of other linguists. 694 00:33:39.069 --> 00:33:42.130 Isn't that gross? That's so gross. Yeah. That is one 695 00:33:42.150 --> 00:33:46.500 of the grossest things about intellectuals, this gatekeeping of information 696 00:33:46.539 --> 00:33:49.140 and this appeal to authority that they're the only person 697 00:33:49.180 --> 00:33:52.789 who could possibly know. Especially when you're talking about languages. 698 00:33:53.329 --> 00:33:54.890 Like how many languages are there? 699 00:33:55.119 --> 00:33:57.920 There are about 8,000 separate languages in the world. 700 00:33:58.019 --> 00:34:02.599 Okay. How the fuck could you know all the rules 701 00:34:02.680 --> 00:34:04.380 to 8,000 languages? 702 00:34:04.660 --> 00:34:06.859 We don't have data on more than about 1,200 or so. 703 00:34:06.940 --> 00:34:10.500 Well, isn't there also an issue with the Aboriginal tribes 704 00:34:10.860 --> 00:34:15.449 of Australia? My good friend Adam Greentree, he's from Australia 705 00:34:15.670 --> 00:34:18.010 and he was running a mine there for a while 706 00:34:18.190 --> 00:34:21.340 and worked with a lot of Aboriginal people and really 707 00:34:21.380 --> 00:34:25.530 learned a lot about their cultures. And they're called mobs, 708 00:34:25.820 --> 00:34:28.989 like their tribe. They call it a mob. And there 709 00:34:29.010 --> 00:34:32.030 could be a mob that's just like 30 kilometers over 710 00:34:32.090 --> 00:34:34.570 that way. They have no idea what they're saying. They 711 00:34:34.650 --> 00:34:36.710 don't know the language and it's not written anywhere. And 712 00:34:36.730 --> 00:34:39.630 there's hundreds of these. They're all over the place. Right. 713 00:34:40.070 --> 00:34:42.489 And the bit of fieldwork that has been done, there 714 00:34:42.510 --> 00:34:44.800 are some really good Australian linguists trying to figure out 715 00:34:44.840 --> 00:34:47.559 these things. But the fieldwork that has been done has 716 00:34:47.599 --> 00:34:51.039 found properties in that aren't like anything else we know about. 717 00:34:52.039 --> 00:34:56.559 So languages can vary so much that it's really premature, 718 00:34:56.840 --> 00:35:00.940 in my opinion, to be writing laws that languages are 719 00:35:00.980 --> 00:35:03.929 supposed to follow, all 8,000 of these languages. 720 00:35:04.050 --> 00:35:06.349 Well, all you'd have to do is say, as far 721 00:35:06.489 --> 00:35:09.789 as we've observed, and then you're okay. But as soon 722 00:35:09.849 --> 00:35:12.190 as you say it has to have this, and if 723 00:35:12.230 --> 00:35:15.150 someone says actually a language that doesn't have this, And 724 00:35:15.210 --> 00:35:18.130 then there's a controversy. You're a bad guy for pointing 725 00:35:18.150 --> 00:35:18.630 this out. 726 00:35:19.150 --> 00:35:24.159 You're a heretic. I had one of Chomsky's followers who 727 00:35:24.199 --> 00:35:27.559 was Brazilian write to the Brazilian Indian Agency, which is 728 00:35:27.739 --> 00:35:31.320 where I get my authorization to visit these tribes, and say, 729 00:35:31.340 --> 00:35:33.780 this Dan Everett guy, he's a racist. 730 00:35:34.360 --> 00:35:37.500 That's what they always say. Yeah. Isn't that the fun one? 731 00:35:37.699 --> 00:35:38.420 Yeah. 732 00:35:38.699 --> 00:35:40.280 The moment they want to get rid of you, you're 733 00:35:40.320 --> 00:35:41.119 a racist. Yeah. 734 00:35:41.280 --> 00:35:43.260 Well, she was silly because she said he's trying to 735 00:35:43.320 --> 00:35:46.380 reduce the pitahas to primates. And I said, well, in fact, 736 00:35:46.440 --> 00:35:48.820 I am because we're all primates. I'm a primate. You're 737 00:35:48.840 --> 00:35:52.320 a primate. But it's the thing. If Chomsky says that 738 00:35:52.420 --> 00:35:56.199 all languages have X and I say here's a language 739 00:35:56.219 --> 00:35:59.690 that doesn't have X, then either A, Chomsky's wrong or B, 740 00:35:59.750 --> 00:36:02.530 these aren't humans. And so the only person who would 741 00:36:02.710 --> 00:36:04.150 claim they're not humans is a racist. 742 00:36:04.710 --> 00:36:07.690 That's such a crazy way to put it. Yeah. It's 743 00:36:07.710 --> 00:36:09.510 so stupid. Yeah. God. 744 00:36:09.530 --> 00:36:11.610 But this is typical in science. As I got more 745 00:36:11.630 --> 00:36:14.750 and more into science, it's very unfortunate. 746 00:36:14.829 --> 00:36:18.309 It's men. It's men and their egos. That's what it is. 747 00:36:18.550 --> 00:36:21.969 And I'm sure women as well, but primarily men. 748 00:36:22.869 --> 00:36:24.889 Well, you know, you don't get a lot of money 749 00:36:24.929 --> 00:36:27.710 when you're a scientist. It's not a money-making profession. You 750 00:36:27.750 --> 00:36:32.050 go into what is the biggest rate of exchange among scientists? 751 00:36:32.090 --> 00:36:32.489 It's ego. 752 00:36:33.179 --> 00:36:35.079 But it's just so crazy to think that if it 753 00:36:35.139 --> 00:36:38.989 doesn't have this one characteristic of language that you're calling 754 00:36:39.030 --> 00:36:41.610 them primates, there's not a value judgment. You're saying it's 755 00:36:41.650 --> 00:36:43.710 a different kind of language and this is fascinating. 756 00:36:43.929 --> 00:36:50.070 Exactly. That's my take and many anthropologists took that. This– 757 00:36:50.929 --> 00:36:55.949 so for example, they originally said that Homo erectus had 758 00:36:56.010 --> 00:36:58.449 no capability for human speech and I thought that was 759 00:36:58.510 --> 00:37:01.929 kind of a questionable statement since– You know, I've read 760 00:37:01.949 --> 00:37:03.739 a lot on Homo erectus, read a book about it. 761 00:37:04.280 --> 00:37:11.260 And they don't– all their accomplishments, they had to have 762 00:37:11.539 --> 00:37:14.110 pretty advanced language to account for the fact that the 763 00:37:14.199 --> 00:37:17.690 ocean was never a barrier for them. And so I 764 00:37:17.769 --> 00:37:20.250 said that Homo erectus had language, and I think the 765 00:37:20.309 --> 00:37:22.889 evidence supports that. But they don't have the kind of 766 00:37:22.949 --> 00:37:28.659 language Chomsky says necessarily. And– So an archaeologist at the 767 00:37:28.699 --> 00:37:31.500 University of Liverpool wrote me, and he says, my specialty 768 00:37:31.559 --> 00:37:33.780 is Homo erectus, and I think you're right. So we 769 00:37:33.800 --> 00:37:36.920 wrote a paper together. And then after we wrote the paper, 770 00:37:37.539 --> 00:37:42.460 he discovered last year the oldest wooden structure known in 771 00:37:42.539 --> 00:37:47.320 all of human history, 500,000-year-old structure built by Homo erectus 772 00:37:47.389 --> 00:37:51.429 in Zambia. And he showed that it has interlocking pieces 773 00:37:52.050 --> 00:37:56.329 and parts that, Nobody ever expected Homo erectus to be 774 00:37:56.349 --> 00:37:58.369 able to do, and their brains weren't that much smaller 775 00:37:58.389 --> 00:38:02.820 than ours. The average size of a modern human's brain 776 00:38:02.900 --> 00:38:09.019 is about 1,200 cc's for men and about 950 to 1,100 777 00:38:09.019 --> 00:38:11.800 cc's for women. And since we know that men aren't 778 00:38:11.840 --> 00:38:14.159 more intelligent than women, the size of the brain can't 779 00:38:14.260 --> 00:38:18.150 be what's determining that. Homo erectus had brains of 950 780 00:38:18.150 --> 00:38:23.630 to 1,000 cc's, cubic centimeters. You measure that by taking 781 00:38:23.849 --> 00:38:26.090 the skull and filling it full of sand and seeing 782 00:38:26.130 --> 00:38:30.969 how much sand fits in there. And so they were 783 00:38:31.010 --> 00:38:33.210 able to make these complex structures and they were able 784 00:38:33.260 --> 00:38:34.980 to make boats and they were able to do all 785 00:38:35.019 --> 00:38:39.400 these things. Yeah, that's what Larry Barham from the University 786 00:38:39.420 --> 00:38:43.139 of Liverpool discovered. This structure, you see the cross piece. 787 00:38:43.579 --> 00:38:48.610 And he recently gave a talk to a world association 788 00:38:48.650 --> 00:38:51.880 of archaeologists. to get their judgment on what this could be. 789 00:38:52.260 --> 00:38:56.880 Not archaeologists, but architects, to get their professional judgment. And 790 00:38:56.900 --> 00:38:59.260 they were really impressed by this. They said that's actually 791 00:38:59.300 --> 00:39:04.090 a pretty advanced structure for building a walkway or a house. 792 00:39:04.710 --> 00:39:07.650 We actually discussed this yesterday. I had a guy on 793 00:39:07.710 --> 00:39:10.809 named Michael Button. He's got a fantastic YouTube channel. It's 794 00:39:10.829 --> 00:39:13.989 all about sort of the mysteries of human history. And 795 00:39:14.730 --> 00:39:17.809 we talked about the seafaring aspect and how much evidence 796 00:39:17.849 --> 00:39:20.710 there is that these people were seafaring as much as 797 00:39:20.750 --> 00:39:21.570 a million years ago. 798 00:39:21.750 --> 00:39:25.139 Yeah, yeah. And in my book, How Language Began, I have. 799 00:39:25.159 --> 00:39:26.420 They had to be communicated. 800 00:39:26.840 --> 00:39:31.929 Yeah, you can't... There's an archaeologist in... Australia, Bednarik is 801 00:39:31.989 --> 00:39:37.469 his name, and he showed by... He did experiments, and 802 00:39:38.280 --> 00:39:41.119 they're not exact because you can't find humans today that 803 00:39:41.159 --> 00:39:44.940 don't have any language, normal humans. But he got humans 804 00:39:45.000 --> 00:39:47.980 from different languages who couldn't communicate with each other that 805 00:39:48.019 --> 00:39:49.980 well to see if they could build a boat. And 806 00:39:50.809 --> 00:39:53.679 And then another linguist wrote a paper based on some 807 00:39:53.699 --> 00:39:55.760 of this called How Much Language Does It Take to 808 00:39:55.800 --> 00:39:58.159 Build a Boat? And it turns out you've got to 809 00:39:58.179 --> 00:40:00.780 have language to build a boat. And so if they 810 00:40:00.800 --> 00:40:03.559 were building these boats that could carry water and could 811 00:40:03.619 --> 00:40:05.699 carry as many as 20 people because you've got to 812 00:40:05.760 --> 00:40:08.260 have enough to– if you find a colony of Homo 813 00:40:08.300 --> 00:40:11.400 erectus on an island that was always an island, it 814 00:40:11.460 --> 00:40:15.769 was never connected by land, there had to be more 815 00:40:15.809 --> 00:40:18.610 than one person that washed up there on some vegetation. 816 00:40:18.650 --> 00:40:20.010 There has to have been a community. 817 00:40:20.500 --> 00:40:25.239 Yeah, Michael brought up that the– what was it? What 818 00:40:25.280 --> 00:40:28.840 organization did it? Was it NASA? NASA did a study 819 00:40:28.880 --> 00:40:30.300 because they were trying to figure out how many people 820 00:40:30.340 --> 00:40:35.289 you need to colonize another planet. And they came up 821 00:40:35.309 --> 00:40:38.030 with the number 500. You need a minimum of 500 822 00:40:38.030 --> 00:40:42.050 to begin a colony. Right. In order to have genetic diversity, 823 00:40:42.170 --> 00:40:44.929 make sure you're not having sex with your cousin, that 824 00:40:44.949 --> 00:40:45.449 kind of jazz. 825 00:40:45.789 --> 00:40:48.460 Yeah. So you can't. just sent a couple over there, 826 00:40:48.539 --> 00:40:49.059 Adam and Eve. 827 00:40:49.340 --> 00:40:49.500 Right. 828 00:40:49.679 --> 00:40:50.920 And expect this to happen. 829 00:40:51.079 --> 00:40:53.139 Yeah. How did you feel about that story when you 830 00:40:53.159 --> 00:40:53.679 first heard it? 831 00:40:53.880 --> 00:40:54.340 Adam and Eve? 832 00:40:54.380 --> 00:40:56.940 Yeah. When you, when you were converting, you're 17, you're 833 00:40:57.179 --> 00:40:57.860 doing acid. 834 00:40:58.159 --> 00:41:00.019 I mean, I was one of these guys who I 835 00:41:00.059 --> 00:41:02.199 believe the Bible cover to cover and even the covers. 836 00:41:02.960 --> 00:41:04.860 Uh, so we'll get to that in a minute. Yeah. So, 837 00:41:04.920 --> 00:41:07.679 but go back to how this is all going down. 838 00:41:08.719 --> 00:41:10.300 With, uh, the, the controversy. 839 00:41:10.469 --> 00:41:10.789 Yes. 840 00:41:10.869 --> 00:41:14.920 So I started getting hate mail and then, um, uh, 841 00:41:15.809 --> 00:41:19.030 The article came out when I first proposed this in 842 00:41:19.070 --> 00:41:23.590 the major journal of anthropology, Current Anthropology. I was in 843 00:41:23.659 --> 00:41:26.280 Germany at the time at the Max Planck Institute for 844 00:41:26.340 --> 00:41:30.559 Evolutionary Anthropology. And right down the hall from me was 845 00:41:30.579 --> 00:41:33.579 Svante Pebo, who just won the Nobel Prize for decoding 846 00:41:33.619 --> 00:41:38.159 the genome of Neanderthals. And there was a reporter, a 847 00:41:38.179 --> 00:41:42.320 German reporter from Der Spiegel, to talk to him. And 848 00:41:42.480 --> 00:41:44.360 she found out about my article. So she walked down 849 00:41:44.400 --> 00:41:46.320 the hall after she interviewed him and interviewed me. And 850 00:41:46.360 --> 00:41:48.239 this came out and it started to get picked up 851 00:41:48.780 --> 00:41:51.719 in the press in a lot of places. And so 852 00:41:51.780 --> 00:41:55.199 the New Yorker did a big profile. But then the 853 00:41:55.219 --> 00:41:58.679 reaction came and it wasn't what I expected. I expected 854 00:41:58.719 --> 00:42:01.900 that if you make a proposal that other scientists, if 855 00:42:01.920 --> 00:42:04.159 they're skeptical, which they have every right to be, are 856 00:42:04.179 --> 00:42:07.590 going to propose experiments to test what you're saying. And 857 00:42:07.610 --> 00:42:09.650 they're going to say, well, if they don't have recursion, 858 00:42:09.670 --> 00:42:11.630 you should find this and you should not find that. 859 00:42:11.690 --> 00:42:14.190 You should get this and this and this. And I 860 00:42:14.269 --> 00:42:17.010 tried to anticipate that. But that's the kind of objection 861 00:42:17.030 --> 00:42:20.329 I expected. But instead they said, I'm a liar. I'm 862 00:42:20.369 --> 00:42:23.909 trying to get publicity. I had a New York Times reporter. 863 00:42:23.949 --> 00:42:26.190 She called me and she said, do you try to 864 00:42:26.210 --> 00:42:29.090 get publicity? I said, did I ask you to call me? 865 00:42:29.769 --> 00:42:32.329 I said, you know, you called me. I said, you know, 866 00:42:32.730 --> 00:42:34.769 it's an interesting story. If people want to talk to me, 867 00:42:34.809 --> 00:42:36.989 I'm here to talk to them. But I'm not. I 868 00:42:37.030 --> 00:42:38.650 said if I wrote you at the New York Times 869 00:42:38.710 --> 00:42:41.719 and said I'm an interesting person, interview me, would that 870 00:42:41.739 --> 00:42:42.320 make any difference? 871 00:42:42.340 --> 00:42:45.579 They're not mutually exclusive. Like you could be trying to 872 00:42:45.659 --> 00:42:49.480 get attention and publicity because you've discovered something that's very important. 873 00:42:49.940 --> 00:42:52.280 The idea that you're just trying to get attention. Are 874 00:42:52.300 --> 00:42:54.949 you trying to get attention? What are you talking about? 875 00:42:56.750 --> 00:43:02.679 That's such– it's so weird that the– intellectuals, the people 876 00:43:02.699 --> 00:43:06.550 who are literally professional thinkers, would fall into these like 877 00:43:06.610 --> 00:43:08.730 common human traps of ego. 878 00:43:09.110 --> 00:43:17.260 Yeah. Well, it was a mind-blowing, mind-expanding experience for me 879 00:43:17.380 --> 00:43:21.340 to see that intellectuals that I otherwise admired as deep 880 00:43:21.400 --> 00:43:25.719 thinkers about their subject would not think otherwise. And, you know, 881 00:43:25.739 --> 00:43:28.059 I mean, Did they. 882 00:43:28.199 --> 00:43:31.079 Ever engage you on the actual information? 883 00:43:31.880 --> 00:43:36.269 Yeah. I had people from MIT, Department of Brain and 884 00:43:36.309 --> 00:43:41.969 Cognitive Sciences, from Stanford, Department of Psychology, from Columbia University 885 00:43:42.030 --> 00:43:44.909 came down at separate times to run experiments, and they 886 00:43:44.929 --> 00:43:49.519 were well-designed experiments to test what I said. And they 887 00:43:49.559 --> 00:43:52.460 all came away saying, you know, it looks like Dan's right. 888 00:43:52.480 --> 00:43:57.460 Right. So where's the reaction then? And what is the– 889 00:43:57.639 --> 00:44:00.260 what do they say about that? Like the people that 890 00:44:00.280 --> 00:44:02.550 are negative about this and the people that are calling 891 00:44:02.570 --> 00:44:05.190 you a racist and all this saying you're trying to 892 00:44:05.210 --> 00:44:07.670 get attention. What are they saying about these results? 893 00:44:08.590 --> 00:44:12.340 They don't refer to them directly. But if asked, they 894 00:44:12.489 --> 00:44:17.510 often say that these people don't like Chomsky. So– All 895 00:44:17.550 --> 00:44:17.829 of them? 896 00:44:18.050 --> 00:44:20.929 Yeah. All of those individual scientists that are running these 897 00:44:20.969 --> 00:44:22.969 studies for you don't like Chomsky, and that's why they 898 00:44:22.989 --> 00:44:24.030 have these skewed results? 899 00:44:24.510 --> 00:44:27.239 That is one of the many objections that people raise. 900 00:44:27.260 --> 00:44:28.989 But by and large, they ignore it. 901 00:44:29.699 --> 00:44:32.000 They ignore it? Yeah. So they ignore the studies? 902 00:44:32.400 --> 00:44:35.480 Yeah, I had Chomsky write me some really nasty emails. 903 00:44:35.920 --> 00:44:37.760 You got them? Do you got them still? I have them. 904 00:44:37.940 --> 00:44:42.460 Yeah, I do have them. And I asked him, I said, 905 00:44:42.480 --> 00:44:44.940 why don't we debate at the Linguistic Society of America? 906 00:44:45.630 --> 00:44:47.679 I said, you think I'm an idiot, so here's your chance. 907 00:44:47.719 --> 00:44:50.179 You can show that I'm an idiot. Just we'll debate, 908 00:44:50.480 --> 00:44:52.139 and you'll make a fool of me in five minutes. 909 00:44:52.280 --> 00:44:54.940 He's saying he thinks you're an idiot when you're explaining 910 00:44:55.000 --> 00:44:56.199 a language that he doesn't know. 911 00:44:56.519 --> 00:44:57.780 I'm an idiot or I'm a liar. 912 00:44:58.619 --> 00:44:59.889 Oh, my God. 913 00:44:59.989 --> 00:45:02.849 He gave an interview to a Brazilian newspaper, and he said, 914 00:45:03.510 --> 00:45:07.289 Dan used to be a fairly good linguist, but he 915 00:45:07.409 --> 00:45:10.570 is a charlatan. He's just a 100% charlatan. And he 916 00:45:10.610 --> 00:45:13.510 was interviewed on a Spanish station and they said, what 917 00:45:13.530 --> 00:45:15.489 do you think of the contributions of Dan Everett? And 918 00:45:15.510 --> 00:45:20.480 he said, they're nothing, nothing, nothing. And he's really popular. 919 00:45:21.039 --> 00:45:24.000 I used to really admire him. I used to really 920 00:45:24.039 --> 00:45:26.239 admire him. Then I found out I was close homies 921 00:45:26.280 --> 00:45:28.920 with Jeffrey Epstein. That kind of threw a lot of 922 00:45:28.960 --> 00:45:31.760 water on that. Like what? Yeah. But then there was 923 00:45:31.780 --> 00:45:34.059 the stance during the vaccines when it was like people 924 00:45:34.079 --> 00:45:36.449 that weren't vaccinated should be round up and put into camps. 925 00:45:36.550 --> 00:45:40.469 They had some crazy positions on the unvaccinated people and 926 00:45:40.550 --> 00:45:47.550 very just misinformed, just completely misinformed about whether it was 927 00:45:47.630 --> 00:45:51.679 natural immunity or there was other medications that were treat 928 00:45:51.719 --> 00:45:54.219 that you could use to treat COVID-19 or even the. 929 00:45:55.719 --> 00:45:58.780 the efficacy of the vaccine. It was crazy. That was 930 00:45:58.820 --> 00:46:02.440 just one thing about him. There's just like his earlier debates, 931 00:46:02.500 --> 00:46:05.739 like he's got these fantastic debates. I think it's him 932 00:46:05.780 --> 00:46:08.889 and William F. Buckley. Have you ever seen those? He's 933 00:46:09.070 --> 00:46:12.269 so good in those. He's so brilliant in those. It 934 00:46:12.309 --> 00:46:18.090 was a young Chomsky and like his intellect and his reason, 935 00:46:18.170 --> 00:46:19.949 it was like a breath of fresh air. It was 936 00:46:19.969 --> 00:46:24.880 like Super well-informed. Every time Buckley tried to catch him 937 00:46:24.940 --> 00:46:28.119 on something, he judoed him. It was amazing. Yeah. 938 00:46:28.139 --> 00:46:30.159 Well, the first two books of Chomsky I read when 939 00:46:30.199 --> 00:46:33.579 I started doing graduate work in linguistics. 940 00:46:33.880 --> 00:46:36.420 I read the media one. What is it? 941 00:46:36.760 --> 00:46:39.940 Oh, A Manufacturer of Consent. 942 00:46:40.000 --> 00:46:40.480 That's right. 943 00:46:40.599 --> 00:46:43.880 Yeah. But he had– the first book of his I read, 944 00:46:44.219 --> 00:46:47.219 it was in linguistics, Aspects of the Theory of Syntax. 945 00:46:47.869 --> 00:46:50.070 And if you're a linguist and you're studying linguistics, that's 946 00:46:50.130 --> 00:46:53.650 just genius. It is just brilliant. And then the next 947 00:46:53.690 --> 00:46:57.610 book that he published the same year was American Power 948 00:46:57.710 --> 00:47:00.889 and the New Mandarins, which was about Vietnam. And that 949 00:47:00.929 --> 00:47:03.889 was also brilliant. And, you know, for one person to 950 00:47:03.929 --> 00:47:06.780 publish two books like that in one year, I mean, 951 00:47:07.059 --> 00:47:10.300 that's just first-order genius. So I admired him. 952 00:47:10.539 --> 00:47:12.400 What goes wrong with a guy like that, though? If 953 00:47:12.460 --> 00:47:15.059 a guy can be that smart, how can he not 954 00:47:15.159 --> 00:47:17.860 be curious about it? How could he not– like when 955 00:47:17.920 --> 00:47:20.719 you say something that flies in the face of everything 956 00:47:20.800 --> 00:47:24.179 that he's taught, how could he not be curious and 957 00:47:24.219 --> 00:47:27.019 want to talk to you? And if you're right, why 958 00:47:27.039 --> 00:47:29.219 would he not want to like do something with you? 959 00:47:29.559 --> 00:47:31.780 Like if I found someone like you and I was– 960 00:47:31.860 --> 00:47:33.340 I mean I would have hoped that I would be 961 00:47:33.389 --> 00:47:35.570 the same way as I am now. And I had 962 00:47:35.590 --> 00:47:38.070 an opportunity. I said we should do a podcast together. 963 00:47:38.110 --> 00:47:39.889 We could explain this. This is crazy. 964 00:47:40.130 --> 00:47:42.570 Right. I invited him to the Pidahá. He was coming 965 00:47:42.610 --> 00:47:45.070 to Brazil and I said, hey, why don't you come 966 00:47:45.090 --> 00:47:47.230 with me to the Pidahá? And I'll ask them any 967 00:47:47.269 --> 00:47:48.829 question you want me to ask them. We can talk 968 00:47:48.889 --> 00:47:50.789 about it there. And he said, I don't do that 969 00:47:50.829 --> 00:47:53.630 kind of thing. I don't do field work. So he 970 00:47:53.650 --> 00:47:54.050 didn't come. 971 00:47:54.309 --> 00:47:57.369 Good move. You don't want typhoid fever and fucking malaria 972 00:47:57.510 --> 00:47:59.530 bit by snakes, stalked by jaguars. 973 00:47:59.550 --> 00:48:00.110 That's all true. 974 00:48:00.150 --> 00:48:04.389 See? He's smart. It's just very disappointing when people are 975 00:48:04.780 --> 00:48:08.500 really brilliant. He's a brilliant guy and essentially– I mean 976 00:48:09.019 --> 00:48:12.840 especially rather was really brilliant when he was young. It's 977 00:48:12.860 --> 00:48:15.500 just– I'm so sad when you see someone like that 978 00:48:15.559 --> 00:48:19.110 just behaving with ego because he was the expert. He 979 00:48:19.150 --> 00:48:21.809 was the foremost linguist on planet Earth. 980 00:48:21.949 --> 00:48:23.969 When the New York Times is saying things like you're 981 00:48:23.989 --> 00:48:27.469 the most important intellectual alive and you have people hanging 982 00:48:27.590 --> 00:48:31.400 off every word as though it comes from the Oracle 983 00:48:31.440 --> 00:48:35.960 of Apollo, I assume that it affects your ego to 984 00:48:36.000 --> 00:48:36.480 some degree. 985 00:48:36.480 --> 00:48:40.019 100 percent. Most people, especially back then when there's no 986 00:48:40.079 --> 00:48:43.150 internet to check you. You can get a really distorted 987 00:48:43.210 --> 00:48:47.289 perception of how you stand. Also, everyone is kissing your ass. 988 00:48:47.670 --> 00:48:50.880 You're surrounded by other people that are trying to climb 989 00:48:50.889 --> 00:48:53.199 the same ladder you're on. You're in a very lofty 990 00:48:53.239 --> 00:48:55.760 position of authority and power. 991 00:48:56.239 --> 00:48:58.880 He wrote letters of recommendation for me for my first 992 00:48:58.920 --> 00:48:59.780 job in the US. 993 00:48:59.920 --> 00:49:00.280 Really? 994 00:49:00.420 --> 00:49:02.159 And he wrote a letter of recommendation when I came 995 00:49:02.219 --> 00:49:05.219 up for promotion to tenure at the University of Pittsburgh. 996 00:49:05.460 --> 00:49:06.940 Why would he do that if you're an idiot? 997 00:49:07.079 --> 00:49:09.119 But I hadn't been– I wasn't yet an idiot. 998 00:49:09.559 --> 00:49:10.219 Right. 999 00:49:10.849 --> 00:49:11.840 I became an idiot. 1000 00:49:12.139 --> 00:49:15.360 You became an idiot when you disagreed with him. Meanwhile, ha-ha, 1001 00:49:15.400 --> 00:49:19.869 you're right. That's what's funny. In the end, you're right. Yeah, well. 1002 00:49:20.289 --> 00:49:25.639 He– I've had so many exchanges in journals and magazines 1003 00:49:25.699 --> 00:49:28.460 and things with his followers over the years and with 1004 00:49:28.500 --> 00:49:33.659 him that I go give a talk somewhere and people say, 1005 00:49:33.980 --> 00:49:37.070 I hope you're ready because there's a lot of skeptics 1006 00:49:37.110 --> 00:49:39.559 in this audience and I say, I don't think they're 1007 00:49:39.579 --> 00:49:41.320 going to ask me any new questions. I've done this 1008 00:49:41.380 --> 00:49:44.949 so much now that they're going to ask me– I 1009 00:49:44.989 --> 00:49:47.869 said I'll be surprised if anybody asks me a question 1010 00:49:47.909 --> 00:49:49.610 that I haven't heard from Chomsky. 1011 00:49:50.570 --> 00:49:53.769 And when you have these conversations with Chomsky and you 1012 00:49:53.909 --> 00:49:57.829 lay out how the Piraha use their language and what 1013 00:49:57.869 --> 00:50:00.909 they– and how it works, what was his reaction to that? 1014 00:50:01.110 --> 00:50:02.030 You're just incorrect? 1015 00:50:02.630 --> 00:50:04.250 Well, the first time I talked to him about it, 1016 00:50:04.309 --> 00:50:06.710 he had not made this claim about recursion. This was 1017 00:50:06.750 --> 00:50:11.789 in 1984. I was a visitor at MIT Linguistics, and 1018 00:50:11.829 --> 00:50:14.530 my office was next to his. And so I talked 1019 00:50:14.550 --> 00:50:17.679 to him several times that year. And I said, I 1020 00:50:19.860 --> 00:50:23.219 don't think their language has this property. And he said, 1021 00:50:23.599 --> 00:50:25.719 you know, he was drinking coffee and looking at the board. 1022 00:50:25.739 --> 00:50:28.260 He had a blackboard right by his desk. And he said, hmm, 1023 00:50:28.480 --> 00:50:31.099 wonder what the consequences of that are. And then one 1024 00:50:31.119 --> 00:50:33.119 of his PhD students told me, oh, you really got 1025 00:50:33.139 --> 00:50:36.619 gnome thinking. What is this? He found that very intriguing. 1026 00:50:36.940 --> 00:50:38.969 But then when he came out with the proclamation that 1027 00:50:39.010 --> 00:50:41.230 all languages had the habit, then I became an idiot. 1028 00:50:41.590 --> 00:50:49.510 Oh, God. That's so disappointing. Fucking people. Yeah. Fucking people. 1029 00:50:50.349 --> 00:50:55.699 Even the brightest minds. They're just– ego is such a motherfucker. Yeah. 1030 00:50:56.139 --> 00:50:59.039 Well, it's really disappointing because he was like my idol 1031 00:50:59.099 --> 00:51:02.809 for the first part of my linguistic career and I wasn't. 1032 00:51:03.090 --> 00:51:04.909 Did you try to have a conversation with him after 1033 00:51:05.130 --> 00:51:08.130 he denounced you? Did you try to like one-on-one get 1034 00:51:08.170 --> 00:51:08.690 together with him? 1035 00:51:09.690 --> 00:51:11.090 Well, we exchanged emails. 1036 00:51:11.170 --> 00:51:13.869 Yeah, but in his face, like right in front of him. 1037 00:51:13.909 --> 00:51:14.710 Did you try to do that? 1038 00:51:15.849 --> 00:51:18.010 He never had– I had always told him when I 1039 00:51:18.050 --> 00:51:21.360 was going through Cambridge that I was coming and maybe 1040 00:51:21.400 --> 00:51:23.539 he and I could talk and he always made time. 1041 00:51:24.039 --> 00:51:26.480 And we talked– I would be living somewhere else and 1042 00:51:26.500 --> 00:51:28.039 I would come to MIT and he would talk to me. 1043 00:51:28.500 --> 00:51:31.610 And my first PhD student is a full professor at 1044 00:51:31.639 --> 00:51:35.769 MIT and he started off in linguistics. He's in brain 1045 00:51:35.789 --> 00:51:38.369 and cognitive sciences now. So I had a good relationship 1046 00:51:38.409 --> 00:51:41.050 with Chomsky. But then suddenly he never had time to 1047 00:51:41.090 --> 00:51:41.570 meet with me. 1048 00:51:41.969 --> 00:51:45.230 So after his proclamation? Right. OK. 1049 00:51:45.449 --> 00:51:47.269 He had no time to meet with me. His wife 1050 00:51:47.329 --> 00:51:49.820 died and I wrote him a letter. saying, I'm so 1051 00:51:49.900 --> 00:51:52.179 sorry that Carol died. This is really terrible. I know 1052 00:51:52.219 --> 00:51:54.500 you guys have been together for so long. And he 1053 00:51:54.539 --> 00:51:57.059 wrote back and said, thank you so much. That means 1054 00:51:57.099 --> 00:51:59.000 a great deal to me. And then I saw this 1055 00:51:59.119 --> 00:52:01.210 article in a Sao Paulo paper where he called me 1056 00:52:01.230 --> 00:52:03.309 a charlatan. So I wrote him right back and I said, 1057 00:52:03.650 --> 00:52:06.710 did you call me a charlatan? And he said, yeah, 1058 00:52:06.750 --> 00:52:08.989 you are a charlatan. I said, you should be ashamed 1059 00:52:09.030 --> 00:52:10.789 of yourself. He said, no, you should be ashamed of 1060 00:52:10.829 --> 00:52:12.829 yourself for saying things you know that can't be right. 1061 00:52:14.840 --> 00:52:16.380 So that was the last exchange we had. 1062 00:52:16.400 --> 00:52:18.500 Silly, silly. No, of course you should have had that 1063 00:52:18.599 --> 00:52:21.539 in front of them. I mean, just, I think people 1064 00:52:22.079 --> 00:52:24.579 say things in emails that I think is a terrible 1065 00:52:24.599 --> 00:52:25.239 way to communicate. 1066 00:52:25.300 --> 00:52:28.260 I agree completely. You know, that's. 1067 00:52:28.280 --> 00:52:31.699 Especially with insults. It's just, it's such a way. And 1068 00:52:31.719 --> 00:52:35.050 then you're waiting on the other person's insult in return. Like, God, 1069 00:52:35.070 --> 00:52:38.650 stop it. Are you fucking 12 years old? Yeah. Stop. 1070 00:52:39.090 --> 00:52:43.260 So the author, Tom Wolfe, um, The last book he 1071 00:52:43.320 --> 00:52:46.679 wrote was called Kingdom of Speech. And he talked about 1072 00:52:46.739 --> 00:52:52.679 two controversies, Darwin versus Alfred Russell Wallace and me versus Chomsky. 1073 00:52:52.960 --> 00:52:53.340 Oh, wow. 1074 00:52:53.480 --> 00:52:56.510 And so he has a very– he has some bizarre, 1075 00:52:56.869 --> 00:52:59.849 absolutely wrong ideas about where language came from. He's not 1076 00:52:59.889 --> 00:53:03.530 a linguist. But he did cover that controversy extremely well. 1077 00:53:04.230 --> 00:53:07.809 And Tom used to call me every week when he 1078 00:53:07.829 --> 00:53:09.300 was writing the book. I didn't even know what it 1079 00:53:09.340 --> 00:53:12.449 was about to get the details right. But he was 1080 00:53:12.489 --> 00:53:14.570 just shocked how this happened. 1081 00:53:15.389 --> 00:53:20.429 Yeah. Again, it's disappointing. But even the most brilliant humans 1082 00:53:20.530 --> 00:53:21.150 are just human. 1083 00:53:21.719 --> 00:53:21.969 Right. 1084 00:53:21.989 --> 00:53:24.860 And they're subject to all the flaws and all the 1085 00:53:24.940 --> 00:53:27.400 traps that the human mind could fall into. 1086 00:53:27.880 --> 00:53:32.340 Yeah. I've often said after long experience that intelligence is 1087 00:53:32.420 --> 00:53:33.940 no antidote for stupidity. 1088 00:53:34.519 --> 00:53:34.780 Right. 1089 00:53:34.880 --> 00:53:35.590 You can be both. 1090 00:53:36.050 --> 00:53:39.190 Oh, 100 percent. Absolutely. Especially when ego is involved. 1091 00:53:39.409 --> 00:53:39.590 Yeah. 1092 00:53:39.989 --> 00:53:43.989 So– How many people– how many of the Piraha did 1093 00:53:44.030 --> 00:53:44.570 you convert? 1094 00:53:45.269 --> 00:53:52.429 Nobody. In decades, they weren't interested. They were so totally– 1095 00:53:52.559 --> 00:53:55.780 because my claims did not meet their standard of evidence. 1096 00:53:56.139 --> 00:53:58.429 They have a high standard of evidence and I didn't 1097 00:53:58.690 --> 00:53:59.530 meet that standard. 1098 00:54:00.239 --> 00:54:03.179 This episode is brought to you by Blue Chew. Man, 1099 00:54:03.400 --> 00:54:05.920 let's talk about Blue Chew. They're already the number one 1100 00:54:06.010 --> 00:54:08.769 brand for better sex. But what they're doing with Blue 1101 00:54:08.809 --> 00:54:13.110 Chew Gold is completely next level. Gold is a four-in-one 1102 00:54:13.230 --> 00:54:18.250 formula designed to make your bedroom noisy again. Obviously, it 1103 00:54:18.289 --> 00:54:21.150 gets you hard, like you're back in your 20s, and 1104 00:54:21.449 --> 00:54:26.489 everything is handled 100% online. But gold boosts your arousal, 1105 00:54:26.829 --> 00:54:30.780 getting you ready for sex physically and mentally. 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But don't they have like mystical creatures and 1116 00:55:10.719 --> 00:55:13.960 stuff that they believe live in the forest? They do. 1117 00:55:14.599 --> 00:55:18.119 And When I first got there as a Christian, I 1118 00:55:18.599 --> 00:55:21.530 called these things spirits because that's all I knew how 1119 00:55:21.570 --> 00:55:22.010 to characterize them. 1120 00:55:22.050 --> 00:55:22.769 How do they describe them? 1121 00:55:23.150 --> 00:55:26.789 They describe them as distinct beings. They don't say they're 1122 00:55:26.829 --> 00:55:30.329 spiritual or anything like that. But you see something. Like 1123 00:55:30.349 --> 00:55:34.670 you see– maybe there's another Indian hunting from a different tribe, 1124 00:55:34.730 --> 00:55:36.869 hunting in your jungle because there are some that are 1125 00:55:37.070 --> 00:55:39.789 close enough to be hunting in the same area. You 1126 00:55:39.869 --> 00:55:41.820 see them, but you don't see them well. They go 1127 00:55:41.860 --> 00:55:45.219 behind a tree or something. So you say, oh, that's 1128 00:55:45.320 --> 00:55:48.179 one of these things. I just saw one of these things. 1129 00:55:50.559 --> 00:55:52.679 They don't put it to the test necessarily, but they 1130 00:55:52.699 --> 00:55:53.190 did see it. 1131 00:55:53.440 --> 00:55:54.059 These things. 1132 00:55:54.400 --> 00:55:58.179 So they have three major types of entities besides humans. 1133 00:55:59.199 --> 00:56:01.670 And they have different types of humans. I'm one type 1134 00:56:01.750 --> 00:56:05.809 and they're another type. And so they have things. 1135 00:56:05.829 --> 00:56:07.909 How do they make the distinction? Is it the appearance? 1136 00:56:08.809 --> 00:56:12.429 For humans, yes, it's appearance. Well, actually for the other entities, 1137 00:56:12.489 --> 00:56:16.780 it's appearance too. So for me, I'm white, and white 1138 00:56:17.300 --> 00:56:20.159 means you don't have blood. So they asked me. They said, 1139 00:56:20.719 --> 00:56:23.960 so do you have blood? And they asked me one 1140 00:56:24.000 --> 00:56:25.579 time after I'd been there for years. They said, do 1141 00:56:25.619 --> 00:56:29.610 Americans die? And I said, yeah, we die. But you're 1142 00:56:29.639 --> 00:56:31.929 really old, and you haven't died yet. And so I 1143 00:56:31.929 --> 00:56:33.289 cut myself once. 1144 00:56:33.349 --> 00:56:34.449 How old were you at the time? 1145 00:56:35.329 --> 00:56:36.409 Probably 45. 1146 00:56:36.409 --> 00:56:38.219 45. And they thought you were a goner. 1147 00:56:38.639 --> 00:56:41.329 Yeah, because we age differently. I already had gray hair, 1148 00:56:41.349 --> 00:56:42.630 you know, not all over. 1149 00:56:42.710 --> 00:56:44.650 Right. They look a lot different when they're 45. 1150 00:56:44.650 --> 00:56:47.329 Yeah, yeah. They're all still 100 percent black hair. 1151 00:56:47.429 --> 00:56:49.989 Oh, they thought you were a goner with the white hair. 1152 00:56:50.150 --> 00:56:54.860 So they have an expression, almost about to fall to 1153 00:56:54.900 --> 00:56:57.460 the ground. And that's the way they described me. 1154 00:56:57.699 --> 00:56:58.039 Wow. 1155 00:56:58.119 --> 00:57:01.739 But so Americans are one way. Brazilians are another way. 1156 00:57:02.119 --> 00:57:03.530 But then there are these things. Some of them are 1157 00:57:03.550 --> 00:57:06.840 called fast mouths. And so they They talk in a 1158 00:57:06.860 --> 00:57:11.309 high-pitched voice. And at night, you hear somebody, you know, 1159 00:57:11.530 --> 00:57:14.269 a creature talking in a high falsetto voice into the village. 1160 00:57:15.030 --> 00:57:16.650 And I say, what's that? And they said, oh, that's 1161 00:57:16.690 --> 00:57:20.570 a fast mouth. I said, but I'm seeing it, and 1162 00:57:20.610 --> 00:57:22.099 it looks like a pita ha. Oh, yeah, they look 1163 00:57:22.119 --> 00:57:24.599 just like us, but they're not. They're not us. And 1164 00:57:25.539 --> 00:57:28.699 so this is where we come to the border of 1165 00:57:28.780 --> 00:57:32.579 fact and fiction. And we try to draw a fairly 1166 00:57:33.119 --> 00:57:36.940 rigid line between fact and fiction. in our society and 1167 00:57:36.960 --> 00:57:42.099 in most European societies. But to them, they don't have 1168 00:57:42.179 --> 00:57:47.469 to have the full range of experience with this to 1169 00:57:47.510 --> 00:57:50.269 describe it. And so a fast mouth is just a 1170 00:57:50.309 --> 00:57:53.030 fast mouth. And you know who they are because they 1171 00:57:53.070 --> 00:57:55.610 talk in a high falsetto voice and they go naked. 1172 00:57:56.070 --> 00:57:59.349 Whereas pitahas often go naked, but if they have clothes, 1173 00:57:59.369 --> 00:58:01.530 they'll wear them. And the fast mouths will never wear clothes. 1174 00:58:02.989 --> 00:58:06.820 And the fast mouths are also sexually promiscuous. So I 1175 00:58:06.860 --> 00:58:09.159 had a reporter with me in the jungle from GEO 1176 00:58:09.219 --> 00:58:12.139 magazine in Germany. And he said, can I see one 1177 00:58:12.159 --> 00:58:15.559 of these fast mouths? And I told one guy, I said, 1178 00:58:15.719 --> 00:58:17.750 he wants to see a fast mouth. And he said, well, 1179 00:58:17.769 --> 00:58:20.329 I'll go get one. And he walks off into the jungle. 1180 00:58:20.389 --> 00:58:24.650 And then the same guy comes back in naked, talking 1181 00:58:24.670 --> 00:58:29.159 in this falsetto voice, and starts trying to hump the reporter. Yeah. 1182 00:58:31.570 --> 00:58:34.610 And the reporter says, oh, I'm feeling very uncomfortable. I said, 1183 00:58:34.630 --> 00:58:36.389 you asked for it. I mean, you know, I mean, 1184 00:58:36.409 --> 00:58:38.590 that's the way they are. And so I finally told 1185 00:58:38.610 --> 00:58:40.659 the guy. I said, you know, he doesn't want this. 1186 00:58:40.699 --> 00:58:42.840 He doesn't want to see the fast mouth anymore. So 1187 00:58:42.860 --> 00:58:44.320 he talks to me in a high falsetto and he 1188 00:58:44.360 --> 00:58:46.400 walks off and he comes back on with his clothes on. 1189 00:58:47.000 --> 00:58:51.039 And I said, did you see the fast mouth? He said, 1190 00:58:51.119 --> 00:58:53.360 was there a fast mouth here? I was gone, you know. 1191 00:58:53.639 --> 00:58:54.019 What? 1192 00:58:54.039 --> 00:58:54.900 But it's the same guy. 1193 00:58:56.460 --> 00:59:00.380 What did you take of that? Like what– Did you 1194 00:59:00.460 --> 00:59:02.920 think that they were playing a prank on you? Did 1195 00:59:02.940 --> 00:59:06.010 you think this is like some sort of a psychotic 1196 00:59:06.070 --> 00:59:07.389 state that they fall into? 1197 00:59:07.449 --> 00:59:13.730 It is a limit. area between being, say, theater and 1198 00:59:13.769 --> 00:59:17.719 being reality. And I don't know if they feel possessed. 1199 00:59:17.880 --> 00:59:20.699 I don't think they have a concept of possession. I've 1200 00:59:20.920 --> 00:59:23.360 asked them and I've investigated this and I've never seen that. 1201 00:59:23.900 --> 00:59:28.360 But they definitely believe that they're gone and this other 1202 00:59:28.420 --> 00:59:29.860 creature is there in their place. 1203 00:59:31.570 --> 00:59:34.670 Do they have memory of when they become a fast mouth? 1204 00:59:34.750 --> 00:59:36.800 They deny it. I've tried to get them to talk 1205 00:59:36.840 --> 00:59:38.639 about it. I don't know. I wasn't here. 1206 00:59:38.940 --> 00:59:40.050 Everyone denies it? 1207 00:59:40.179 --> 00:59:41.139 Everybody denies it. 1208 00:59:41.579 --> 00:59:44.239 Wow. Do you think that being a fast mouth is 1209 00:59:44.460 --> 00:59:48.239 like almost like a license to go and do stuff 1210 00:59:48.280 --> 00:59:51.389 you're not supposed to do? Go fuck everybody? Yeah. You 1211 00:59:51.429 --> 00:59:52.210 think that's what it is? Yeah. 1212 00:59:52.860 --> 00:59:56.619 They also change names very frequently. So if I go 1213 00:59:56.659 --> 00:59:58.840 back there now, all my old friends will have different names. 1214 00:59:59.159 --> 01:00:02.300 And anything done under the old name is– you'll say, 1215 01:00:02.619 --> 01:00:04.760 you remember when you did this? Well, I didn't do that. 1216 01:00:05.480 --> 01:00:08.460 That was the guy with this name. So they don't 1217 01:00:08.500 --> 01:00:12.860 even claim– so the concept of constancy of identity throughout time, 1218 01:00:14.239 --> 01:00:14.940 they deny this. 1219 01:00:15.679 --> 01:00:18.059 So when do they choose to make a new name 1220 01:00:18.179 --> 01:00:20.409 or do they get a new name assigned to them? 1221 01:00:20.719 --> 01:00:24.500 They can. Why? Children often get new names for different 1222 01:00:24.539 --> 01:00:28.139 phases of life. But adults, if you're out in the 1223 01:00:28.159 --> 01:00:30.239 jungle and you think you saw something and you can't 1224 01:00:30.280 --> 01:00:31.599 explain it, you might take a new name. 1225 01:00:35.940 --> 01:00:37.480 Not a bad idea, right? 1226 01:00:37.840 --> 01:00:39.559 This is a way of coping with things. 1227 01:00:39.679 --> 01:00:41.760 Yeah. I mean it kind of makes sense. If something 1228 01:00:41.929 --> 01:00:44.409 really traumatic happens to you and you want to like 1229 01:00:44.449 --> 01:00:47.889 reclaim your life, you change your name, start over from scratch. Right. 1230 01:00:48.530 --> 01:00:50.630 And some of us do it in American culture, but 1231 01:00:50.690 --> 01:00:53.570 it's a lot harder legal process to change your name. 1232 01:00:53.769 --> 01:00:55.659 How often do they get killed by jaguars? 1233 01:00:56.929 --> 01:01:00.070 Nobody's ever been killed in my almost 50 years coming 1234 01:01:00.110 --> 01:01:02.320 and going, but many of them have been attacked. 1235 01:01:02.780 --> 01:01:03.420 Really? Yeah. 1236 01:01:03.500 --> 01:01:08.059 Like one guy was coming back from getting Brazil nuts, 1237 01:01:08.119 --> 01:01:10.840 and he had a big basket. And so his head's 1238 01:01:11.340 --> 01:01:13.599 down a bit with the tump line, and the basket 1239 01:01:13.639 --> 01:01:16.019 probably weighs, you know, 60 pounds. 1240 01:01:16.039 --> 01:01:16.559 Yeah. 1241 01:01:18.059 --> 01:01:20.119 Suddenly a jaguar jumps out of the tree right on 1242 01:01:20.159 --> 01:01:22.969 his back, but it got the basket and not him, 1243 01:01:23.070 --> 01:01:26.309 and it pulled the basket off his head, and he 1244 01:01:26.349 --> 01:01:27.170 shot it with an arrow. 1245 01:01:28.190 --> 01:01:28.769 Oh, my God. 1246 01:01:28.829 --> 01:01:31.050 But they tell me that when you shoot a jaguar 1247 01:01:31.090 --> 01:01:33.869 with an arrow, the jaguar forgets about you and keeps 1248 01:01:33.909 --> 01:01:36.829 trying to get the arrow out. And by that time, 1249 01:01:36.849 --> 01:01:40.849 you've got three or four more arrows in it. So 1250 01:01:40.869 --> 01:01:43.699 these guys are deadly accurate with bows and arrows. 1251 01:01:43.800 --> 01:01:47.940 So if they did that and, like, maybe— they got attacked, 1252 01:01:48.099 --> 01:01:49.409 would they change their name after that? 1253 01:01:49.719 --> 01:01:52.190 They could. And I, so I don't completely have it 1254 01:01:52.230 --> 01:01:53.869 down to a formula. Oh, okay. 1255 01:01:53.889 --> 01:01:56.969 So it's not, it's not like when they're uncomfortable, sometimes 1256 01:01:56.989 --> 01:01:59.050 it's just like, it's time. It's time that Bob becomes Mike. 1257 01:01:59.070 --> 01:02:02.489 It's a subjective reaction to objective experience that causes them 1258 01:02:02.530 --> 01:02:03.050 to do this. 1259 01:02:03.530 --> 01:02:05.440 And they, do they announce it to the village? 1260 01:02:06.800 --> 01:02:09.599 They announce it to their, like their spouse or their kids. 1261 01:02:09.840 --> 01:02:12.780 And then the word spreads. And so I'll come back in. 1262 01:02:12.800 --> 01:02:14.760 I came back in after six months and my buddy, 1263 01:02:14.780 --> 01:02:20.500 my main language teacher, And his name was, when I left, 1264 01:02:20.639 --> 01:02:24.929 it was Kohoi Behe, which means blood eater. And when 1265 01:02:24.969 --> 01:02:26.969 I got back, I said, you know, and the nickname 1266 01:02:27.030 --> 01:02:28.909 is Ko. Hey, Ko. You know, I asked, how are 1267 01:02:28.929 --> 01:02:31.309 you doing? And nobody responds. He didn't turn and look 1268 01:02:31.329 --> 01:02:33.329 at me or anything. And I called him again and again. 1269 01:02:33.849 --> 01:02:35.889 He said, you talking to me? I said, yeah. He said, 1270 01:02:35.909 --> 01:02:38.269 that's not my name. And so I had to learn 1271 01:02:38.309 --> 01:02:42.559 his new name was Ka Paobi, you know, which, and 1272 01:02:42.599 --> 01:02:44.900 he was serious about it. He wouldn't respond anymore to 1273 01:02:44.920 --> 01:02:45.380 that old name. 1274 01:02:45.929 --> 01:02:50.420 Wow. How odd. The first time that happened, were you like, oh, 1275 01:02:50.440 --> 01:02:51.980 my God, these people are fucking crazy? 1276 01:02:52.320 --> 01:02:54.739 No, I thought, I'm pretty stupid. I can't even remember 1277 01:02:54.780 --> 01:02:55.280 their names. 1278 01:02:55.739 --> 01:02:56.079 Wow. 1279 01:02:56.119 --> 01:02:57.219 That was my first reaction. 1280 01:02:57.280 --> 01:03:01.400 How quickly did this happen from you first, like, encountering 1281 01:03:01.420 --> 01:03:01.840 these people? 1282 01:03:02.440 --> 01:03:06.269 Well, I would be gone for three or four months 1283 01:03:06.309 --> 01:03:08.949 at a time and then come back because I was 1284 01:03:09.369 --> 01:03:10.090 doing linguistic. 1285 01:03:10.190 --> 01:03:13.130 Oh, so you never experienced it, like, as it was happening? 1286 01:03:13.170 --> 01:03:14.210 You only experienced it... One time. 1287 01:03:14.250 --> 01:03:17.210 One time there was... You really need to spend at 1288 01:03:17.269 --> 01:03:19.429 least a full year there so you can see all 1289 01:03:19.469 --> 01:03:22.110 the seasons and all the changes. Then I saw some 1290 01:03:22.130 --> 01:03:24.170 of the stuff. But many of the name changes happened 1291 01:03:24.210 --> 01:03:25.969 when I was out of the village. Some of them 1292 01:03:26.010 --> 01:03:28.670 happened when I was in the village. But my best friends, 1293 01:03:28.769 --> 01:03:30.789 their name changes seemed to happen when I was out 1294 01:03:30.809 --> 01:03:34.030 of the village. And they were very serious about enforcing 1295 01:03:34.070 --> 01:03:39.550 those new name changes. So if you ask them to 1296 01:03:39.610 --> 01:03:43.789 tell stories about their childhood, you get these very vague stories. 1297 01:03:44.389 --> 01:03:47.039 And they'll say, you know, but I'm talking about this person, 1298 01:03:47.300 --> 01:03:49.900 you know. Or they'll tell me, you know, they changed 1299 01:03:49.940 --> 01:03:53.260 my name twice, you know. And so they name me 1300 01:03:53.320 --> 01:03:54.880 and they– so a guy comes up to me and 1301 01:03:54.900 --> 01:03:58.179 he says, that name is rotten, which is the same 1302 01:03:58.239 --> 01:04:01.460 word you use for spoiled food. You know, your name 1303 01:04:01.519 --> 01:04:04.420 is spoiled. So I'm going to give you this name. 1304 01:04:04.940 --> 01:04:06.800 And then I got– then one time I was in 1305 01:04:06.840 --> 01:04:09.210 there and was staying with this guy. He's just wearing 1306 01:04:09.230 --> 01:04:12.750 a loincloth and the other Peter Hoff fearing because he's 1307 01:04:12.769 --> 01:04:18.280 this fierce– And he says, you're really old. They always 1308 01:04:18.320 --> 01:04:20.539 tell me that. He said, you're really old. And I said, 1309 01:04:21.300 --> 01:04:22.929 I'm not that old. He said, yeah, you are. My 1310 01:04:22.949 --> 01:04:25.230 dad's dead and you're about the same age as he was. 1311 01:04:25.590 --> 01:04:27.849 They don't know what the age is. He said, I'm 1312 01:04:27.869 --> 01:04:30.679 going to give you my dad's name. And Bao Aisi, 1313 01:04:30.719 --> 01:04:32.599 which is just the name of his dad. So that's 1314 01:04:32.639 --> 01:04:34.679 been my name ever since. I've had that name now 1315 01:04:34.739 --> 01:04:35.820 for about 15 years. 1316 01:04:36.059 --> 01:04:39.139 And when you go back, what happens if they want 1317 01:04:39.159 --> 01:04:40.510 to switch it up again? You have to learn a 1318 01:04:40.530 --> 01:04:43.070 new name? Yeah, yeah. And that could easily happen, right? 1319 01:04:43.269 --> 01:04:45.090 Yeah, it could easily happen. It just depends on which 1320 01:04:45.130 --> 01:04:46.969 village you go to and which person you're talking to. 1321 01:04:47.489 --> 01:04:49.590 What is the population of these people? 1322 01:04:50.210 --> 01:04:51.739 When I first got there, it was under 200. And 1323 01:04:51.800 --> 01:04:57.280 now it's around 700 to 800. They've grown because they've 1324 01:04:57.320 --> 01:05:00.179 had more medical assistance. I gave them medical assistance, my 1325 01:05:00.219 --> 01:05:02.480 wife and I, for 20 years. 1326 01:05:03.340 --> 01:05:07.800 And so your goal was to convert them to Christianity. Right. 1327 01:05:08.030 --> 01:05:12.250 And when it's—so no one's buying it. So what are 1328 01:05:12.289 --> 01:05:15.710 you doing? What do your days consist of while you're there? 1329 01:05:15.789 --> 01:05:21.449 Well, my days consist of linguistic analysis and translation effort. 1330 01:05:22.269 --> 01:05:24.650 So I'll work with somebody. And so I worked with 1331 01:05:24.690 --> 01:05:27.849 this guy, for example— And we went through the story 1332 01:05:27.889 --> 01:05:30.590 of Jesus. I had translated a large part of the 1333 01:05:30.630 --> 01:05:33.670 Gospel of Luke, and I tell him this story. And 1334 01:05:33.710 --> 01:05:37.380 then I showed film strips, you know, made by, you know, 1335 01:05:37.389 --> 01:05:40.159 where Jesus looks like an American and has a beard 1336 01:05:40.219 --> 01:05:43.420 and all this stuff. And I explained it. They don't 1337 01:05:43.460 --> 01:05:47.019 make a difference between drawings and photographs, so they figured, well, 1338 01:05:47.079 --> 01:05:50.440 this must be Jesus. He saw Jesus. So that night, 1339 01:05:50.619 --> 01:05:52.000 after I had told him all this and we had 1340 01:05:52.039 --> 01:05:55.710 seen the film strips, His village was across the river. 1341 01:05:55.769 --> 01:05:57.590 I lived in one village, and across the river was 1342 01:05:57.650 --> 01:06:00.210 another village, and they went across the river. And all 1343 01:06:00.269 --> 01:06:03.250 night long, I heard screaming and yelling and people running 1344 01:06:03.309 --> 01:06:06.969 around and women laughing and then women screaming. And the 1345 01:06:07.030 --> 01:06:08.789 next morning, he comes back to work with me, and 1346 01:06:08.829 --> 01:06:11.510 I said, so what was going on all night? He said, oh, 1347 01:06:11.570 --> 01:06:15.769 Jesus came to our village. I said, what? He said, yeah, 1348 01:06:15.789 --> 01:06:17.130 he came to our village, you know, and he had 1349 01:06:17.170 --> 01:06:20.739 a penis three feet long. They don't have words for feet, 1350 01:06:20.780 --> 01:06:23.269 so I'm just going by his hand thing. He said, 1351 01:06:23.309 --> 01:06:24.809 and he was trying to stick it in all the women. 1352 01:06:25.389 --> 01:06:27.829 And so, you know, the women don't want to know 1353 01:06:27.869 --> 01:06:28.639 anymore about Jesus. 1354 01:06:29.179 --> 01:06:30.050 What? 1355 01:06:30.820 --> 01:06:34.860 This is their way of rejecting it. So I never 1356 01:06:34.920 --> 01:06:37.719 expected that. In all my Bible training and things. 1357 01:06:38.280 --> 01:06:41.900 Did they say, so they wouldn't admit if one of 1358 01:06:41.960 --> 01:06:44.940 them became like they become a fast talker if they 1359 01:06:44.960 --> 01:06:47.980 just became Jesus. Right. But that could have been what happened. 1360 01:06:48.119 --> 01:06:49.159 I'm sure that's what happened. 1361 01:06:49.719 --> 01:06:51.449 So one guy just decided I'm Jesus. 1362 01:06:51.530 --> 01:06:54.559 Yeah. But everybody took him, you're Jesus. 1363 01:06:54.840 --> 01:06:55.079 Yeah. 1364 01:06:55.179 --> 01:06:56.599 And this is what Jesus is trying to do. 1365 01:06:57.340 --> 01:06:58.280 Oh, boy. 1366 01:06:58.480 --> 01:07:01.280 But they would ask questions like, you know, hey, Dan, 1367 01:07:02.119 --> 01:07:04.159 what does Jesus look like? Is he brown like us 1368 01:07:04.280 --> 01:07:05.909 or is he white like you? And I say, well, 1369 01:07:05.929 --> 01:07:07.929 you know, some people say he was brown like you 1370 01:07:07.989 --> 01:07:09.809 and some people say he was white like me. And 1371 01:07:09.829 --> 01:07:11.710 they said, yeah, yeah, but you've seen him. What did 1372 01:07:11.730 --> 01:07:14.869 he look like? And I said, well, I never saw him. Well, 1373 01:07:14.889 --> 01:07:17.409 your dad saw him. No, my dad never saw him. 1374 01:07:17.429 --> 01:07:19.130 He lived a long time ago. I don't know anyone 1375 01:07:19.150 --> 01:07:21.349 who's ever seen Jesus. And they said, you don't know 1376 01:07:21.429 --> 01:07:23.570 anyone who's ever seen him and you're just talking about 1377 01:07:23.590 --> 01:07:26.079 him the whole time, telling us about him? They said, 1378 01:07:26.099 --> 01:07:30.460 we don't want to hear about this anymore. And that 1379 01:07:30.500 --> 01:07:30.840 was like. 1380 01:07:31.059 --> 01:07:33.199 But you at the time were a believer. You're a 1381 01:07:33.219 --> 01:07:37.570 true believer. Yeah. So when did that start to slip away? 1382 01:07:38.210 --> 01:07:42.090 It started to slip away from two sides. One, I 1383 01:07:42.130 --> 01:07:45.010 was spending a lot of my time in the intellectual 1384 01:07:45.070 --> 01:07:49.239 world and trying to do serious linguistic science. And it 1385 01:07:49.280 --> 01:07:53.130 slipped away mainly, however... by constant interaction with the Pirahã. 1386 01:07:53.150 --> 01:07:55.329 Because as I've gotten to know these people over the years, 1387 01:07:56.650 --> 01:08:00.429 these are really smart people. They're very intelligent people. They 1388 01:08:00.690 --> 01:08:03.250 had me figured out before I had them figured out. 1389 01:08:03.469 --> 01:08:05.489 And they can predict my behavior better than I can 1390 01:08:05.530 --> 01:08:09.900 predict theirs, even today. And so they would come to 1391 01:08:09.940 --> 01:08:11.559 me and they would say this, you know, they say, Dan, 1392 01:08:11.579 --> 01:08:15.260 you keep telling us about Jesus, but it seems that 1393 01:08:15.320 --> 01:08:17.460 only Americans believe in Jesus because we don't know any 1394 01:08:17.500 --> 01:08:20.430 Brazilians that we've ever met that believe in Jesus. And 1395 01:08:20.829 --> 01:08:23.250 So this seems like an American thing, but we're not Americans. 1396 01:08:23.829 --> 01:08:25.550 And then they would say, you know, where did you 1397 01:08:25.590 --> 01:08:28.369 get your evidence? And I began to think, you know, 1398 01:08:28.409 --> 01:08:30.880 these are good questions. I can't just throw these questions off. 1399 01:08:30.909 --> 01:08:33.579 What is my evidence? You know, I went to Bible school. 1400 01:08:33.619 --> 01:08:37.779 I've been surrounded by Christians. I've surrounded myself by people 1401 01:08:37.819 --> 01:08:40.539 who believe. And this is what happens in linguistic theory 1402 01:08:40.619 --> 01:08:43.560 or other scientific theories. You surround yourself with a community 1403 01:08:44.090 --> 01:08:47.010 that believes the same thing, and pretty soon it's hard 1404 01:08:47.029 --> 01:08:48.270 for you to consider alternatives. 1405 01:08:48.829 --> 01:08:49.029 Right. 1406 01:08:50.439 --> 01:08:53.729 And so I started considering the alternative and I realized– 1407 01:08:54.399 --> 01:08:59.090 I was an atheist back when I met my first 1408 01:08:59.149 --> 01:09:00.909 wife in front of a gym. Hendrix concert. I was 1409 01:09:00.949 --> 01:09:02.949 an atheist and then I became a Christian and then 1410 01:09:02.989 --> 01:09:07.609 I thought maybe I was right to begin with. And 1411 01:09:09.640 --> 01:09:11.060 so eventually I told them. I said, you know, I 1412 01:09:11.069 --> 01:09:13.380 don't believe this stuff anymore either. And they started laughing. 1413 01:09:13.420 --> 01:09:15.539 All the guys started laughing. I said, why are you– 1414 01:09:15.800 --> 01:09:19.550 they said, oh, now you're like us. But– But then 1415 01:09:19.590 --> 01:09:21.770 they told me one time, they said, you know, from 1416 01:09:21.810 --> 01:09:25.699 what we understand, Christians don't drink and they don't sleep 1417 01:09:25.739 --> 01:09:27.819 with other women. And, you know, we like to do 1418 01:09:27.880 --> 01:09:31.520 those things. So we're not interested. 1419 01:09:33.159 --> 01:09:36.510 What was convincing for you, though? If you're a true believer, 1420 01:09:36.909 --> 01:09:39.390 you think your path is the right way when you're 1421 01:09:39.430 --> 01:09:42.420 hanging out with these people. What is making you question it? 1422 01:09:42.890 --> 01:09:45.930 Well, several things. One of the most important things was 1423 01:09:45.970 --> 01:09:48.869 that having spent so many years as a Christian, and 1424 01:09:48.949 --> 01:09:51.829 knowing Christians both in the U.S. and missionaries, who are 1425 01:09:51.850 --> 01:09:56.020 the cream of the crop, supposedly, I didn't know anyone 1426 01:09:56.060 --> 01:09:58.880 in the Christian faith who was as well-adjusted, who could 1427 01:09:58.939 --> 01:10:01.199 cope with life as well, who was as satisfied and 1428 01:10:01.239 --> 01:10:04.399 content with their lives as the Piraha. They were like 1429 01:10:04.439 --> 01:10:08.329 the ultimate Zen masters, and the ultimate, you know, if 1430 01:10:08.369 --> 01:10:10.510 you thought, what is Jesus supposed to do for your life? 1431 01:10:11.010 --> 01:10:13.810 They already had it. And I didn't know many Christians 1432 01:10:13.850 --> 01:10:16.579 who did. So first it was quality of the spiritual life. 1433 01:10:16.760 --> 01:10:18.520 They seem to me to have the highest quality of 1434 01:10:18.590 --> 01:10:21.930 spiritual life. So one MIT guy who came down, an 1435 01:10:22.069 --> 01:10:25.630 MIT PhD student, said, these look like the happiest people 1436 01:10:25.670 --> 01:10:28.310 in the world. And I said, well, what kind of 1437 01:10:28.329 --> 01:10:31.949 statement is that? How would you measure who's happiest? He said, well, 1438 01:10:32.010 --> 01:10:34.960 I would spend time, I would see how long they 1439 01:10:35.060 --> 01:10:37.460 smile and laugh every day and compare it to others 1440 01:10:37.520 --> 01:10:40.840 and how much time they spend laughing and smiling. And 1441 01:10:40.880 --> 01:10:43.239 I'll guarantee you, he said, I've never seen a Peter 1442 01:10:43.260 --> 01:10:48.050 Hahn here who's not smiling or laughing at frequently. So 1443 01:10:48.329 --> 01:10:51.170 it was that quality of character, and it was also 1444 01:10:51.229 --> 01:10:53.710 just the fact that I began to realize that the 1445 01:10:53.750 --> 01:10:56.869 scientific principles that I've been learning and that I'm applying 1446 01:10:56.909 --> 01:11:01.590 in linguistics almost have to be suspended to apply them 1447 01:11:01.909 --> 01:11:06.899 to the faith. Because, you know, for example, I've heard 1448 01:11:06.920 --> 01:11:12.479 a lot of stories of people being healed. But this 1449 01:11:12.560 --> 01:11:16.399 is anecdotal evidence. And I'm not going to deny anybody's experience. 1450 01:11:16.420 --> 01:11:22.300 If you tell me you had inoperable cancer, but now 1451 01:11:22.420 --> 01:11:24.979 you don't, something happened, and I can't tell you what 1452 01:11:25.020 --> 01:11:28.850 it was. But at the same time, there's no statistical 1453 01:11:28.930 --> 01:11:32.850 relevance to that. It's also the case that even when 1454 01:11:32.909 --> 01:11:37.010 I was in Bible school, one of my teachers said, 1455 01:11:37.430 --> 01:11:41.029 I wonder why healers, faith healers, never start with amputees. 1456 01:11:41.789 --> 01:11:44.430 you know. They always start with diseases you can't see, 1457 01:11:44.689 --> 01:11:49.119 like cancer, and explain how it went away. But they 1458 01:11:49.159 --> 01:11:51.859 said also in the Bible, and the Bible itself, you know, 1459 01:11:51.880 --> 01:11:55.020 says this, Jesus not only healed people, he raised them 1460 01:11:55.060 --> 01:11:57.579 from the dead. So if somebody claims to be a 1461 01:11:57.600 --> 01:12:00.939 healer in the same vein as Jesus, I'd like to 1462 01:12:00.970 --> 01:12:04.489 see them start at cemeteries and start raising people from 1463 01:12:04.529 --> 01:12:06.289 the dead. We're not seeing that, and we don't see 1464 01:12:06.350 --> 01:12:10.810 amputees healed. We see things that are sort of subjective experiences. 1465 01:12:10.829 --> 01:12:13.510 So that And I'm not claiming that nobody has a 1466 01:12:13.550 --> 01:12:15.550 right to believe what they believe or that I'm right 1467 01:12:15.569 --> 01:12:17.430 about all these things. But these are the reason– this 1468 01:12:17.489 --> 01:12:20.210 is part of the reasoning process that went through my mind. 1469 01:12:20.350 --> 01:12:25.869 And I thought, yeah, I just can't do this anymore. 1470 01:12:25.909 --> 01:12:29.640 I cannot tell these people to believe something that they 1471 01:12:29.680 --> 01:12:33.539 have reasonable objections against and I don't have reasonable answers for. 1472 01:12:34.340 --> 01:12:36.720 So to me, they made more sense than I did. 1473 01:12:37.720 --> 01:12:42.149 Well, there's– So many of these ancient religions that have 1474 01:12:42.310 --> 01:12:45.050 very similar stories to the Jesus story. 1475 01:12:46.210 --> 01:12:46.449 Yes. 1476 01:12:46.670 --> 01:12:51.289 It seems like a very old story. And I'm of 1477 01:12:51.329 --> 01:12:54.960 the opinion that what you're getting with all of these 1478 01:12:55.039 --> 01:13:01.680 religious texts is there were some events and there's some 1479 01:13:01.760 --> 01:13:05.930 sort of a documentation of this events, but it's very hard. 1480 01:13:06.569 --> 01:13:11.399 to figure out what exactly happened. Like, for instance, Paul 1481 01:13:11.460 --> 01:13:15.500 never met Jesus. No. When most people find that out, 1482 01:13:15.520 --> 01:13:18.100 they go, wait, what? So all that stuff that Jesus said, 1483 01:13:18.479 --> 01:13:22.170 Paul's writing down. And well, how does Paul know this? 1484 01:13:22.630 --> 01:13:24.949 And then you go, oh, well, Paul met Jesus in 1485 01:13:24.989 --> 01:13:27.710 a dream. Like, hold the fuck on. 1486 01:13:28.029 --> 01:13:31.439 Right, right. See, ironically, the Pentecost might actually take that 1487 01:13:31.489 --> 01:13:31.899 as evidence. 1488 01:13:31.960 --> 01:13:34.739 Right. I mean, Jesus came back to their camp as 1489 01:13:34.779 --> 01:13:35.239 a fast forward. 1490 01:13:35.279 --> 01:13:39.220 But we said, you know, I learned in Bible school 1491 01:13:39.260 --> 01:13:42.239 that all the apostles had to have met Jesus. And 1492 01:13:42.300 --> 01:13:44.260 Paul was an apostle, therefore he had to have met Jesus. 1493 01:13:44.319 --> 01:13:46.020 And so I said, well, when did he meet Jesus? 1494 01:13:46.039 --> 01:13:48.329 And they said, on the road to Damascus. He had 1495 01:13:48.369 --> 01:13:50.710 the revelation of Jesus on the road to Damascus, so 1496 01:13:50.750 --> 01:13:51.130 he met him. 1497 01:13:51.850 --> 01:13:53.260 But— It's tricky. 1498 01:13:53.520 --> 01:13:54.000 It's tricky. 1499 01:13:54.159 --> 01:13:59.520 It's tricky. It's also– again, when you get especially to 1500 01:13:59.560 --> 01:14:05.189 the Old Testament, like what were they documenting? What are 1501 01:14:05.210 --> 01:14:11.250 these events? What happened there? There's some stories that you 1502 01:14:11.289 --> 01:14:13.930 say– like the flood story for example. Boy, there's a 1503 01:14:13.970 --> 01:14:15.670 lot of those. There's a lot of those in all 1504 01:14:15.710 --> 01:14:19.409 sorts of ancient religions. It seems to be some sort 1505 01:14:19.449 --> 01:14:23.329 of a historical record. of some sort of a catastrophe. Right. 1506 01:14:24.470 --> 01:14:26.289 All the other stuff that's attached to it, you just 1507 01:14:26.329 --> 01:14:29.760 got to go, I'm not sure what this means. Right. 1508 01:14:29.850 --> 01:14:31.539 You know, when I was a little boy, you know, 1509 01:14:31.560 --> 01:14:33.260 my mother died when I was very young, but when 1510 01:14:33.279 --> 01:14:34.680 I was a little boy, we would drive up from 1511 01:14:34.840 --> 01:14:36.939 Imperial Valley, California to San Diego, and you've got to 1512 01:14:36.979 --> 01:14:40.560 go through the mountains. And there's this line of white 1513 01:14:40.640 --> 01:14:43.100 stones that I noticed near the top of the mountains. 1514 01:14:43.619 --> 01:14:46.010 And I said, you know, what caused that? And my 1515 01:14:46.050 --> 01:14:49.510 mother said, the flood. And I thought, Well, that makes sense. 1516 01:14:49.649 --> 01:14:53.729 It must be the flood. I'm like seven. And so 1517 01:14:54.310 --> 01:14:56.939 this is– some of this stuff gets started this way 1518 01:14:56.949 --> 01:14:57.720 and it becomes truth. 1519 01:14:58.180 --> 01:15:00.500 Well, I mean it's certainly when you're talking about a 1520 01:15:00.560 --> 01:15:06.239 time thousands of years ago where just the ability to 1521 01:15:06.359 --> 01:15:09.859 read was very limited. And then you're translating things from 1522 01:15:09.899 --> 01:15:13.560 languages that we don't even speak anymore. It gets real 1523 01:15:13.619 --> 01:15:16.199 squirrely when you try to figure out what these events 1524 01:15:16.380 --> 01:15:22.869 actually were that they were documenting. It's– having a belief system, 1525 01:15:22.949 --> 01:15:24.560 I think there's a lot of value to it. I 1526 01:15:24.600 --> 01:15:27.920 think it gives you a moral scaffolding, gives you structure 1527 01:15:27.939 --> 01:15:30.479 in your life, and that alone is like super beneficial 1528 01:15:30.920 --> 01:15:32.880 to people. And the people that I know that are 1529 01:15:33.000 --> 01:15:36.760 like true Christians, really follow the teachings of Jesus Christ, 1530 01:15:37.119 --> 01:15:38.659 they're some of the nicest people I've ever met. I 1531 01:15:38.819 --> 01:15:41.640 think there's a really great benefit to that. The problem 1532 01:15:41.680 --> 01:15:45.470 is like what are we saying here? You know, what 1533 01:15:45.529 --> 01:15:48.550 exactly– like do you– the Adam and Eve one. It's like, okay, 1534 01:15:48.689 --> 01:15:51.229 what do you think happened? Do you think there's two people? 1535 01:15:51.369 --> 01:15:53.130 That's the only two people on earth? And then where 1536 01:15:53.170 --> 01:15:55.569 do the other people come from? The brothers and sisters 1537 01:15:55.609 --> 01:15:57.210 just have sex with each other? Right. 1538 01:15:57.569 --> 01:16:01.770 What? Yeah, I mean evolution explains that obviously very well. 1539 01:16:02.180 --> 01:16:04.539 But Adam and Eve, you know, I remember when my 1540 01:16:04.579 --> 01:16:08.279 mother told me the story of eating the apple and 1541 01:16:08.340 --> 01:16:13.520 betraying God. And Adam is hiding out and God says, 1542 01:16:13.859 --> 01:16:16.439 where are you? And I asked my mother, I said, 1543 01:16:17.000 --> 01:16:18.659 I thought God knew everything. Why is he asking him 1544 01:16:19.359 --> 01:16:22.100 where he is? I don't understand that. And she said, well, 1545 01:16:22.140 --> 01:16:24.619 he wants him to confess it. Well, there's always that 1546 01:16:24.680 --> 01:16:26.920 kind of answer. You can always give that kind of answer. 1547 01:16:27.300 --> 01:16:29.819 But we, you know, you don't have to focus on religion. 1548 01:16:29.880 --> 01:16:33.409 You can even go to paleoanthropology and you can look at, 1549 01:16:33.840 --> 01:16:36.859 are there 20 species of Homo that used to exist 1550 01:16:36.920 --> 01:16:40.819 in the past or more? Or were there just three, Erectus, Neanderthal, 1551 01:16:41.310 --> 01:16:45.029 and Sapiens? And what does it mean to be a species? 1552 01:16:45.649 --> 01:16:48.369 And how can we really prove some of that stuff 1553 01:16:48.750 --> 01:16:53.100 before the work of Svante Paibo and decoding the DNA, 1554 01:16:53.520 --> 01:16:58.279 the genome of ancient creatures doing this thing that people 1555 01:16:58.319 --> 01:17:01.819 thought was impossible? That was speculation. It was really hard 1556 01:17:01.880 --> 01:17:06.399 to tell. And there were a lot of controversies. And 1557 01:17:06.479 --> 01:17:09.359 now we can look at the genetic record and we 1558 01:17:09.380 --> 01:17:11.979 can look at the genome, but that still doesn't tell 1559 01:17:12.039 --> 01:17:15.399 us everything. So a lot of straight history and a 1560 01:17:15.439 --> 01:17:21.329 lot of paleoanthropology and paleoarchaeology, all of these things always involve, 1561 01:17:21.710 --> 01:17:27.449 as any theory does, speculation. You're guessing and then trying 1562 01:17:27.489 --> 01:17:30.510 to test your guess. And some things are easier to 1563 01:17:30.569 --> 01:17:34.649 test than other things. And so science is a community 1564 01:17:35.109 --> 01:17:38.850 of people who believe they can work towards the truth, 1565 01:17:38.949 --> 01:17:41.420 but the only way to do that is to have 1566 01:17:41.539 --> 01:17:44.539 good guesses and know how to test them and be 1567 01:17:44.640 --> 01:17:47.420 willing to admit that you're wrong and then move on 1568 01:17:47.460 --> 01:17:53.090 to the next best guess. Right. And every scientist recognizes this, 1569 01:17:53.489 --> 01:17:55.250 but in practice, it's really hard. 1570 01:17:56.189 --> 01:17:58.810 Well, it's certainly hard if you're also a fundamentalist Christian. 1571 01:17:59.050 --> 01:18:00.210 Oh, yeah. That makes it much harder. 1572 01:18:00.229 --> 01:18:02.810 Because then you're living in conflict all the time. Right. 1573 01:18:02.829 --> 01:18:04.409 You believe a guy came back from the dead, but 1574 01:18:04.510 --> 01:18:05.729 show me proof for everything else. 1575 01:18:05.850 --> 01:18:09.260 Yeah. You believe in miracles, but you can't. They certainly 1576 01:18:09.279 --> 01:18:11.479 can't be produced. on demand anymore. 1577 01:18:11.510 --> 01:18:14.670 You also believe that people tell the truth. That's, that's 1578 01:18:14.750 --> 01:18:16.409 part of the problem. Part of the problem with all 1579 01:18:16.449 --> 01:18:20.470 this stuff is like, look, the Bible condones slavery, talks 1580 01:18:20.489 --> 01:18:25.710 about slavery in multiple passages. Yeah. Um, that's a person thing. 1581 01:18:25.770 --> 01:18:26.609 That's a people thing. 1582 01:18:26.890 --> 01:18:27.069 Right. 1583 01:18:27.210 --> 01:18:27.430 That's. 1584 01:18:28.489 --> 01:18:31.229 And the Bible talks about, um, all sorts of things that, 1585 01:18:31.529 --> 01:18:35.159 you know, we don't, uh, agree with, uh, today, but 1586 01:18:35.199 --> 01:18:38.539 we try to, um, interpret it in such a way 1587 01:18:38.619 --> 01:18:41.560 that we can live with it. Right, exactly. You know, 1588 01:18:41.579 --> 01:18:44.229 so God, I mean, if you read anything by Mark 1589 01:18:44.289 --> 01:18:47.409 Twain about God, which is not only brilliant but funny, 1590 01:18:48.409 --> 01:18:54.060 you know, just makes fun of the whole notion that 1591 01:18:54.079 --> 01:18:54.819 … It. 1592 01:18:54.800 --> 01:18:57.279 Says religion started when the first con man made the 1593 01:18:57.319 --> 01:18:57.859 first sucker. 1594 01:18:58.319 --> 01:19:01.840 Yeah. And how many germs– he has this story about 1595 01:19:02.239 --> 01:19:04.960 Noah's Ark about how Noah's family had to be so 1596 01:19:05.039 --> 01:19:09.029 infested with germs so they could survive the flood. 1597 01:19:09.449 --> 01:19:09.550 Yeah. 1598 01:19:11.500 --> 01:19:12.899 When you stop and think about it, I mean, like, 1599 01:19:13.920 --> 01:19:17.739 you know, the ark came to rest on Mount Ararat, 1600 01:19:17.920 --> 01:19:20.500 and then all these creatures had to boogie on down 1601 01:19:20.520 --> 01:19:24.779 to Australia almost immediately. And so you get these stories, 1602 01:19:24.819 --> 01:19:27.020 and people don't want to talk about those things. They say, well, 1603 01:19:27.199 --> 01:19:28.409 I don't know how God did it. 1604 01:19:28.770 --> 01:19:32.010 I think there was an event, and I think this 1605 01:19:32.449 --> 01:19:36.250 version of it, this doctrine that you're supposed to adhere to, 1606 01:19:37.340 --> 01:19:43.800 is woefully uninformed about the actual like real facts of 1607 01:19:43.819 --> 01:19:46.210 the event. I don't think anybody could possibly know. But 1608 01:19:46.229 --> 01:19:49.170 I think when you have the epic of Gilgamesh, which 1609 01:19:49.409 --> 01:19:52.609 mirrors the story of Noah's Ark, which mirrors the story 1610 01:19:52.710 --> 01:19:56.489 of other religions that have similar flood myths or flood stories, 1611 01:19:56.949 --> 01:19:59.979 it's probably something happened. Yeah, it's probably one of the 1612 01:20:00.020 --> 01:20:01.880 things that happened. Right. 1613 01:20:02.319 --> 01:20:06.979 I mean you can tell people– It would be intellectually 1614 01:20:07.039 --> 01:20:09.979 dishonest to tell people that all the claims of their 1615 01:20:10.020 --> 01:20:12.220 religion are false. How do you know that? You don't 1616 01:20:12.260 --> 01:20:15.140 know that. And I used to tell Christians, I said, 1617 01:20:15.199 --> 01:20:18.199 you know, when I was a Christian, the best evidence 1618 01:20:18.260 --> 01:20:20.939 for God is what he's done in your life. And 1619 01:20:21.239 --> 01:20:23.239 are you living a better life? And if you're not 1620 01:20:23.279 --> 01:20:24.989 living a better life, then why are you saying that 1621 01:20:25.029 --> 01:20:28.529 he saved you? And if you can't live a more 1622 01:20:28.630 --> 01:20:33.069 moral life than people who don't know Christ, then what 1623 01:20:33.090 --> 01:20:35.630 are you saying? You've claimed that he changed your life 1624 01:20:35.670 --> 01:20:37.869 for the good, but you're not living a life for 1625 01:20:37.909 --> 01:20:40.739 the good. You know, I went to work in construction 1626 01:20:40.760 --> 01:20:44.659 when I was still in high school for a Christian contractor. 1627 01:20:45.359 --> 01:20:47.880 And I was in the union. I joined the laborers union, 1628 01:20:47.920 --> 01:20:50.180 which meant that as a hod carrier, that's the hardest 1629 01:20:50.199 --> 01:20:53.430 job I ever did, that you got paid $ 8. 1630 01:20:53.329 --> 01:20:53.550 25 an hour. 1631 01:20:53.569 --> 01:20:54.750 And this is 1968. And that was a lot of 1632 01:20:54.789 --> 01:20:55.930 money in 1968. And the guy told me when I 1633 01:20:55.949 --> 01:21:02.979 got hired, he said, The union says, I got to 1634 01:21:02.989 --> 01:21:05.159 pay $ 8. 25 an hour, but I'm not going to pay 1635 01:21:05.180 --> 01:21:06.920 you that. I'm going to write you down as only 1636 01:21:06.960 --> 01:21:09.060 working four hours a day, but you're going to work eight. 1637 01:21:09.979 --> 01:21:11.739 And that's how he got around it. And I thought, 1638 01:21:12.840 --> 01:21:15.500 this guy's a Christian and he's lying on these forms 1639 01:21:15.619 --> 01:21:19.289 and on his taxes and he's going to church. And, um, 1640 01:21:19.680 --> 01:21:22.460 I got the job through my Christian missionary father-in-law who 1641 01:21:22.500 --> 01:21:26.180 knew this guy. And, and I saw that happening time 1642 01:21:26.220 --> 01:21:30.579 and time again. Um, So very often, unfortunately, people who 1643 01:21:30.640 --> 01:21:34.029 claim to be religious and follow the commandments of Jesus, 1644 01:21:34.050 --> 01:21:36.909 which are much more difficult to follow than the commandments 1645 01:21:36.949 --> 01:21:40.689 of the Old Testament because they affect your thoughts and 1646 01:21:40.729 --> 01:21:46.310 not just your overt action. When you don't see consistency, 1647 01:21:46.550 --> 01:21:49.170 the answer could be, well, we're just humans. We're not perfect. 1648 01:21:49.630 --> 01:21:53.100 And that's true. But why doesn't the Holy Spirit that 1649 01:21:53.140 --> 01:21:55.340 you say you believe in make a bigger difference in 1650 01:21:55.380 --> 01:21:57.840 your life than he does in Joe Schmo down the 1651 01:21:57.880 --> 01:22:01.680 street who doesn't claim anything, and he's leading a more 1652 01:22:01.720 --> 01:22:02.720 moral life than you are. 1653 01:22:02.739 --> 01:22:04.479 Especially if you're robbing laborers. 1654 01:22:04.880 --> 01:22:07.720 Yeah, exactly. And lying on your taxes. Yeah. 1655 01:22:08.140 --> 01:22:12.840 And so when you're with a pedaha, they live a 1656 01:22:12.880 --> 01:22:17.109 subsistence lifestyle. Right. And there's been a lot of evidence 1657 01:22:17.289 --> 01:22:24.399 that subsistence lifestyles are some of the Most compatible lifestyles 1658 01:22:24.659 --> 01:22:28.800 in terms of like people's happiness and peace and having 1659 01:22:28.859 --> 01:22:35.050 like a sense of meaning. Like your life is wrapped 1660 01:22:35.130 --> 01:22:38.289 around the gathering of food and community and spending time together. 1661 01:22:38.310 --> 01:22:41.119 And they're the happiest people in the world. Right. 1662 01:22:41.380 --> 01:22:43.520 You know, I monitor them for a while. How many 1663 01:22:43.579 --> 01:22:46.609 hours a week does a hunter work? And I came 1664 01:22:46.649 --> 01:22:49.850 up with about 15 or 20 hours a week. Yeah. 1665 01:22:50.109 --> 01:22:51.689 Unless it's not going well. Yeah. 1666 01:22:51.789 --> 01:22:54.229 And then, yeah, like now they're doing it all the time. 1667 01:22:54.270 --> 01:22:57.619 But when the fish are jumping, it's that. And then 1668 01:22:57.659 --> 01:22:58.779 so what do you do with the rest of your time? 1669 01:22:58.960 --> 01:23:01.399 You lay around the fire and tell jokes and talk 1670 01:23:01.420 --> 01:23:03.779 to people and play with your kids. You know, the 1671 01:23:03.819 --> 01:23:05.239 men love to play with everybody. 1672 01:23:05.260 --> 01:23:09.420 They're in pure subsistence too because they're not even preserving food. Right. 1673 01:23:09.699 --> 01:23:12.359 If they don't find food today, they go hungry today. 1674 01:23:12.979 --> 01:23:15.840 Have you ever seen the Werner Herzog documentary, Happy People? 1675 01:23:16.739 --> 01:23:19.300 I haven't seen that. I did meet him once, but 1676 01:23:21.039 --> 01:23:24.460 I haven't seen that documentary. He's really big into these 1677 01:23:24.539 --> 01:23:26.090 kinds of societies. I know that. 1678 01:23:26.199 --> 01:23:28.159 That's what Happy People is about. It's about these people 1679 01:23:28.189 --> 01:23:31.550 that live in Siberia. Right. There are hunters and trappers 1680 01:23:31.649 --> 01:23:34.890 that live in Siberia, and they're all happy. Right. Yeah, 1681 01:23:35.050 --> 01:23:38.510 and they basically just spend most of their time gathering food, 1682 01:23:38.810 --> 01:23:41.250 gathering food and then spending time with the communities. Yeah. 1683 01:23:41.649 --> 01:23:44.010 Well, the documentary that was made about the Pitaha by 1684 01:23:44.050 --> 01:23:48.510 the Smithsonian and a couple of other– It's called The 1685 01:23:48.550 --> 01:23:53.310 Grammar of Happiness because the film crew that went with 1686 01:23:53.350 --> 01:23:57.090 me was very small, like three people. But they were 1687 01:23:57.130 --> 01:23:59.989 deeply impressed by what they saw and the level of happiness. 1688 01:24:00.029 --> 01:24:03.189 And all the psychologists that I've taken and linguists have 1689 01:24:03.260 --> 01:24:05.539 also been very impressed by the level. If they get 1690 01:24:05.579 --> 01:24:09.539 past the heat and they get past the confrontation with 1691 01:24:09.579 --> 01:24:13.810 your body and the pita hump, don't have outhouses they 1692 01:24:13.850 --> 01:24:15.510 don't have you know i mean if somebody needs to 1693 01:24:15.550 --> 01:24:17.529 take a dump they walk off 10 feet into the 1694 01:24:17.550 --> 01:24:21.489 bush and do it um and so we have. 1695 01:24:21.390 --> 01:24:24.930 To have toilet paper no what do they do a 1696 01:24:25.010 --> 01:24:27.770 stick or leaves oh sticks yeah hey. 1697 01:24:27.989 --> 01:24:29.810 Or if you have corn cobs that's great but they 1698 01:24:29.850 --> 01:24:35.130 don't have corn cobs good lord yeah so so yeah 1699 01:24:35.149 --> 01:24:36.689 but it's just not a big deal they grow up 1700 01:24:36.869 --> 01:24:39.810 that way it's just a function you know and so 1701 01:24:39.829 --> 01:24:41.550 you ask them things about life what happens to you 1702 01:24:41.609 --> 01:24:44.750 after you die What do you mean? Well, when you're dead, 1703 01:24:44.789 --> 01:24:48.510 what happens? Well, you're dead. And so there's like a 1704 01:24:48.550 --> 01:24:50.609 dead monkey that somebody just brought back and they're going 1705 01:24:50.630 --> 01:24:53.460 to eat. He says, he's dead. What else is there? 1706 01:24:54.079 --> 01:24:56.760 Why are you asking this question? We die, we die. 1707 01:24:57.859 --> 01:25:00.319 And they don't fear death. They don't make up a 1708 01:25:00.420 --> 01:25:02.500 story to make themselves not fear death. 1709 01:25:02.880 --> 01:25:04.079 Were there a lot of them injured? 1710 01:25:04.880 --> 01:25:09.039 Oh, yeah. They live a violent life. I have people 1711 01:25:09.119 --> 01:25:12.289 bitten by snakes, cut I had people who split their 1712 01:25:12.329 --> 01:25:15.189 hand almost in two with a machete, run arrows all 1713 01:25:15.210 --> 01:25:18.840 the way up their arm, step on sticks that go 1714 01:25:18.880 --> 01:25:20.760 all the way through their foot. I mean, these are 1715 01:25:20.779 --> 01:25:23.380 people who are naked running through the jungle. And they 1716 01:25:23.420 --> 01:25:27.279 get scratches and, you know, if you get bitten by 1717 01:25:27.399 --> 01:25:34.399 a snake that's hemotoxic, like this is jararaca. I don't 1718 01:25:34.439 --> 01:25:37.460 know what it is. It's a bushmaster. When you get 1719 01:25:37.779 --> 01:25:40.550 bit by one of those things, Even if you survive, 1720 01:25:40.970 --> 01:25:42.510 a lot of the flesh is going to come off 1721 01:25:42.529 --> 01:25:45.609 whatever they bit. So you see people with one leg 1722 01:25:45.680 --> 01:25:47.899 normal and one leg that looks like bone because it's 1723 01:25:47.920 --> 01:25:50.180 basically bone with a little bit of muscle covered in 1724 01:25:50.239 --> 01:25:53.359 skin because the flesh all fell off after the snake bite. 1725 01:25:55.279 --> 01:25:58.829 So they know what it is to suffer, and they're tough. 1726 01:25:58.909 --> 01:26:00.989 You know, if you get a toothache, how do you 1727 01:26:01.010 --> 01:26:03.590 fix it? Well, if I'm there, I have some things 1728 01:26:03.630 --> 01:26:05.329 that can help with the pain or I can pull 1729 01:26:05.350 --> 01:26:09.210 the tooth. But most of the time, it rots out. 1730 01:26:09.699 --> 01:26:13.319 That's how they deal with it. So they learn— you know, 1731 01:26:13.420 --> 01:26:15.409 I was talking to a woman one time, you know, 1732 01:26:15.449 --> 01:26:19.850 really for, you know, pina ha, a looking, very feminine-looking woman, 1733 01:26:19.909 --> 01:26:21.850 and she gets bit by a wasp on the face 1734 01:26:21.869 --> 01:26:24.930 while I'm talking to her. And she pulls the stinger out, 1735 01:26:25.029 --> 01:26:27.529 and she doesn't—it doesn't stop her conversation. And I've been 1736 01:26:27.609 --> 01:26:29.560 stung by those wasps, and I know they hurt like hell. 1737 01:26:30.180 --> 01:26:33.579 And I said, didn't that hurt? Yeah. But you didn't 1738 01:26:33.920 --> 01:26:36.739 say anything. She says, I'm not a baby, you know. 1739 01:26:37.100 --> 01:26:40.000 So— this is the way they are. From the time 1740 01:26:40.039 --> 01:26:42.020 they're children, they learn to deal with pain. They learn 1741 01:26:42.060 --> 01:26:44.689 to be tough. In fact, they have an expression for that. 1742 01:26:44.810 --> 01:26:48.189 He wants to be hard. And that means you deliberately 1743 01:26:48.270 --> 01:26:51.289 sleep sometimes less than you need. You go hungry on 1744 01:26:51.390 --> 01:26:54.609 purpose and you put yourself in hard situations because you 1745 01:26:54.630 --> 01:26:57.409 want to be tough because that's what the environment demands. 1746 01:26:58.050 --> 01:27:03.350 So they build their resilience on purpose. Yes. Voluntarily. Well, 1747 01:27:03.529 --> 01:27:06.079 I would imagine that's like the most important thing to 1748 01:27:06.140 --> 01:27:08.199 have if you're running around naked in the jungle. You 1749 01:27:08.239 --> 01:27:09.239 have to be tough. Right. 1750 01:27:09.779 --> 01:27:13.460 You have to be. And, you know, like I go 1751 01:27:13.500 --> 01:27:17.199 barefoot sometimes in the village. You know, I get– you 1752 01:27:17.220 --> 01:27:19.399 can get parasites that way. But, you know, I do 1753 01:27:19.439 --> 01:27:22.560 it anyway. But when I go to the jungle, I 1754 01:27:22.560 --> 01:27:25.720 always put on shoes because my feet can't take all 1755 01:27:25.760 --> 01:27:28.479 the thorns and everything. And theirs are covered with like 1756 01:27:29.560 --> 01:27:32.039 a whole layer of callus all around their foot. 1757 01:27:32.520 --> 01:27:34.430 They have those crazy splayed out toes as well. 1758 01:27:34.449 --> 01:27:37.149 Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's the way feet are supposed 1759 01:27:37.170 --> 01:27:37.710 to look really. 1760 01:27:37.770 --> 01:27:38.350 Right. 1761 01:27:38.470 --> 01:27:41.069 Ours don't look that way because we protect them. But 1762 01:27:41.329 --> 01:27:44.770 their feet are tough. Their hands are tough. Their skin 1763 01:27:44.829 --> 01:27:47.829 is tough. It's like leather. Even a little kid, their 1764 01:27:47.850 --> 01:27:51.390 little kids, rather than crawl, they scoot around on their butt. 1765 01:27:52.069 --> 01:27:53.970 And so you pick a little kid up and you 1766 01:27:53.989 --> 01:27:56.859 look at their butt and it's just callous. It's just 1767 01:27:56.920 --> 01:28:05.279 solid callous. And these kids are tough. But– By their standards, 1768 01:28:05.300 --> 01:28:06.979 they're very gentle to their kids. I had a guy 1769 01:28:07.020 --> 01:28:09.199 with me one time and he was trying to sleep 1770 01:28:09.260 --> 01:28:12.050 at night and a baby was screaming all night. And 1771 01:28:12.090 --> 01:28:14.460 he said, why don't they tell that baby to shut up? 1772 01:28:14.550 --> 01:28:17.890 And I said, why? I said, they don't need to 1773 01:28:17.909 --> 01:28:19.670 tell it to shut up. That's just part of life. 1774 01:28:19.789 --> 01:28:21.930 They don't have a schedule to keep tomorrow. He said, 1775 01:28:21.949 --> 01:28:23.760 what would happen if I went over and swatted it 1776 01:28:23.819 --> 01:28:26.439 on the behind? I said, they'd kill you. They'd kill me. 1777 01:28:26.460 --> 01:28:29.109 I said, yeah, you don't hit kids. They don't believe 1778 01:28:29.149 --> 01:28:29.829 in hitting kids. 1779 01:28:30.250 --> 01:28:32.350 Swat a baby to get it to– does he think 1780 01:28:32.390 --> 01:28:33.810 that's how babies stop screaming? 1781 01:28:34.680 --> 01:28:35.100 I don't know. 1782 01:28:35.159 --> 01:28:36.619 I mean– Does he have any kids? 1783 01:28:37.859 --> 01:28:40.819 I don't think this guy did. But Christian– often believe, 1784 01:28:41.250 --> 01:28:44.449 really believe, spare the rod and spoil the child. And 1785 01:28:44.470 --> 01:28:47.149 they believe very much in corporal— Back then at least, right? Yeah, 1786 01:28:47.170 --> 01:28:51.750 back then. I don't know today. But, you know, so 1787 01:28:51.770 --> 01:28:55.449 the Bidahav never believed this. They don't accept it. 1788 01:28:56.119 --> 01:28:59.970 Well, I think they're probably correct. It is interesting how 1789 01:29:00.050 --> 01:29:03.369 those people are happier. Like we've done something to ourselves 1790 01:29:03.470 --> 01:29:07.909 by forcing ourselves into cities and jobs and constant stress 1791 01:29:07.949 --> 01:29:11.430 and bills and taxes and all these external things that 1792 01:29:11.449 --> 01:29:14.090 we've attached to our lives that we think are 100 1793 01:29:14.090 --> 01:29:19.380 percent necessary. Don't bring anybody any happier. Don't bring anybody 1794 01:29:19.529 --> 01:29:22.859 any more happiness. In fact, make you way more miserable, 1795 01:29:23.399 --> 01:29:26.939 make you susceptible to a bunch of stress-related illnesses. Yeah. 1796 01:29:27.649 --> 01:29:30.649 I've had friends visit me in the jungle, researchers who 1797 01:29:30.689 --> 01:29:35.029 are friends, and they'll say things like, I've never seen 1798 01:29:35.069 --> 01:29:37.829 you so relaxed. You know, you seem tense when you're 1799 01:29:37.850 --> 01:29:40.220 at the university, but down here you just seem totally 1800 01:29:40.260 --> 01:29:43.100 laid back. And I said, well, I didn't notice it, 1801 01:29:43.199 --> 01:29:45.720 but that makes perfect sense to me because all these 1802 01:29:45.760 --> 01:29:47.600 people are laid back. There's Peter Howe that I go 1803 01:29:47.619 --> 01:29:50.239 to talk to the guy, and I find myself nodding off. 1804 01:29:50.680 --> 01:29:52.760 And I'm not even sleepy when I go over there, 1805 01:29:52.800 --> 01:29:56.380 but he's just so laid back and talks so calmly 1806 01:29:56.439 --> 01:30:00.029 and softly. and telling jokes and things that it just 1807 01:30:00.069 --> 01:30:00.710 puts me to sleep. 1808 01:30:00.989 --> 01:30:02.869 God, it's such a bummer that those people have to 1809 01:30:02.909 --> 01:30:03.529 struggle now. 1810 01:30:03.850 --> 01:30:04.810 Yeah, it's terrible. 1811 01:30:08.069 --> 01:30:11.029 What do they hunt? What do they eat? 1812 01:30:11.029 --> 01:30:13.920 70% of their diet before they started having river problems 1813 01:30:13.939 --> 01:30:18.479 was fish. So the average diet of a Pidaha family 1814 01:30:19.159 --> 01:30:23.319 is fish and water and jungle nuts and things you 1815 01:30:23.340 --> 01:30:28.220 get from the jungle. Hunter-gatherers, which they are, have healthier 1816 01:30:28.279 --> 01:30:33.100 diets than agriculturalists. Because, you know, we had this outbreak 1817 01:30:33.119 --> 01:30:37.810 of disease from lettuce recently in this country. They don't 1818 01:30:37.850 --> 01:30:39.729 grow vegetables, so they're never going to get that kind 1819 01:30:39.750 --> 01:30:42.510 of thing. They don't get that in naturally occurring things 1820 01:30:42.869 --> 01:30:43.489 out in the jungle. 1821 01:30:43.750 --> 01:30:43.989 Right. 1822 01:30:44.250 --> 01:30:48.850 So their diets are healthier. They're eating protein. I know, 1823 01:30:48.909 --> 01:30:51.970 for example, that I could take any Pitaham man out 1824 01:30:51.989 --> 01:30:54.680 of the jungle at random, and if I weigh him, 1825 01:30:55.119 --> 01:30:58.810 he's going to be 155 pounds. He's going to have 1826 01:30:59.310 --> 01:31:04.189 about a 25-inch waist, 26. He's going to have about 1827 01:31:04.189 --> 01:31:08.310 4% body fat, and he's just going to be lean, 1828 01:31:08.529 --> 01:31:12.970 mean machine. And they don't– they do try to harden themselves, 1829 01:31:13.050 --> 01:31:14.989 but that's just what the life does to you. 1830 01:31:16.170 --> 01:31:18.710 But they're not overweight. They're not dealing with obesity. No, 1831 01:31:18.750 --> 01:31:19.710 you never– No diabetes. 1832 01:31:20.390 --> 01:31:26.449 Only when outsiders, representatives of the Brazilian government thought it 1833 01:31:26.470 --> 01:31:28.949 would be good to give them something to rely on. 1834 01:31:29.369 --> 01:31:31.689 So they brought in a lot of rice and they 1835 01:31:31.750 --> 01:31:34.449 started letting the people feed. The people don't grow rice, 1836 01:31:34.520 --> 01:31:36.760 but the government would supply it. So now all of 1837 01:31:36.800 --> 01:31:41.140 a sudden you see people overweight because they're eating starch, 1838 01:31:41.800 --> 01:31:43.720 which they never used to eat that much of. Or 1839 01:31:44.460 --> 01:31:46.970 I took a dentist in once about 25 years ago 1840 01:31:48.029 --> 01:31:51.149 and we inspected the mouth of every living pitaha and 1841 01:31:51.189 --> 01:31:54.090 not one cavity. He was disappointed. He said, I thought 1842 01:31:54.109 --> 01:31:55.670 I was going to be able to do some free 1843 01:31:55.710 --> 01:31:58.989 dental work here, And nobody has a cavity. Well, then 1844 01:31:59.529 --> 01:32:03.670 somebody introduced sugarcane into their fields from the outside world, 1845 01:32:04.130 --> 01:32:08.180 and now it's almost 100% cavities. Everybody has cavities because 1846 01:32:08.199 --> 01:32:09.020 they eat sugarcane. 1847 01:32:09.600 --> 01:32:09.920 Wow. 1848 01:32:10.039 --> 01:32:12.380 So you keep away the sweets, you keep away the starch, 1849 01:32:13.039 --> 01:32:15.720 and you get healthier people. This is just living proof 1850 01:32:15.779 --> 01:32:19.600 of what we often read about diets, but that we're 1851 01:32:19.640 --> 01:32:22.689 so tempted by that we don't normally follow. 1852 01:32:22.710 --> 01:32:25.189 I heard another issue with them is when they get 1853 01:32:25.289 --> 01:32:26.270 introduced to soda. 1854 01:32:27.399 --> 01:32:28.460 Yeah, that's bad. 1855 01:32:28.899 --> 01:32:29.220 Yeah. 1856 01:32:29.439 --> 01:32:31.060 Also whiskey, but that's a different matter. 1857 01:32:31.319 --> 01:32:31.600 Sure. 1858 01:32:31.619 --> 01:32:35.079 They're both bad. Soda is– yeah, I mean they love it. 1859 01:32:35.090 --> 01:32:38.949 They call it sweet water and they will drink the 1860 01:32:38.970 --> 01:32:41.289 hell out of that. If they got five gallons, they'll 1861 01:32:41.310 --> 01:32:43.470 drink it all. I had a guy once who wove 1862 01:32:43.510 --> 01:32:46.590 a basket for me and I said, what do you 1863 01:32:46.609 --> 01:32:49.590 want for it? And he knew that I had some 1864 01:32:49.649 --> 01:32:52.569 canned fruit that I used on Sundays for my kids 1865 01:32:52.630 --> 01:32:54.520 when we were all living there. And he said, I 1866 01:32:54.539 --> 01:32:58.020 want a can of this stuff, which is peaches and 1867 01:32:58.100 --> 01:33:01.289 sweet syrup. And it was a big can. And he 1868 01:33:01.350 --> 01:33:04.029 ate that whole thing. And the kids came around. And 1869 01:33:04.050 --> 01:33:06.909 I've seen guys trade with a boat, and they'll get 1870 01:33:07.010 --> 01:33:09.010 like a kilo of sugar, two and a half pounds 1871 01:33:09.069 --> 01:33:11.109 of sugar. And they just sit down with a spoon 1872 01:33:11.149 --> 01:33:11.430 and eat it. 1873 01:33:11.609 --> 01:33:12.149 Oh, boy. 1874 01:33:12.289 --> 01:33:14.109 And so if they have it, they eat it. And 1875 01:33:14.130 --> 01:33:15.329 if they don't have it, they don't eat it. 1876 01:33:15.329 --> 01:33:16.829 And they have no idea that it's bad for them 1877 01:33:16.850 --> 01:33:18.729 because it tastes good. Why would it be bad? Right. 1878 01:33:19.140 --> 01:33:22.119 You can eat anything you find as a hunter-gatherer, and 1879 01:33:22.140 --> 01:33:24.300 you're not going to have enough of it. To be 1880 01:33:24.340 --> 01:33:24.840 bad for you. 1881 01:33:25.020 --> 01:33:25.260 Right. 1882 01:33:25.520 --> 01:33:27.079 Because you're going to get something else the next day. 1883 01:33:27.359 --> 01:33:29.859 Or like tobacco. I can take in tobacco. But they're 1884 01:33:29.880 --> 01:33:32.399 not going to get addicted to it. They're not going 1885 01:33:32.439 --> 01:33:35.350 to– even when they roll cigarettes, they like them. But 1886 01:33:35.529 --> 01:33:37.729 they only have it like once or twice a year. 1887 01:33:37.789 --> 01:33:40.750 So you don't have to worry about it. If they 1888 01:33:40.789 --> 01:33:43.229 had it all the time, they would have serious issues. 1889 01:33:43.869 --> 01:33:46.930 So they've only developed addictions based on what they've been 1890 01:33:46.970 --> 01:33:48.789 introduced from the Western world. Right. 1891 01:33:48.789 --> 01:33:50.789 100%. 1892 01:33:51.289 --> 01:33:54.489 So tell me about this conversion that you have. Tell 1893 01:33:54.520 --> 01:33:57.439 me about how you, like, what are the steps to 1894 01:33:57.460 --> 01:34:00.479 go from being a true believer, living with the Pidaha, 1895 01:34:01.199 --> 01:34:04.960 and then changing your opinions? How many steps did it take? 1896 01:34:05.819 --> 01:34:08.279 It took some practical steps, and it took a lot 1897 01:34:08.300 --> 01:34:09.220 of mental steps. 1898 01:34:10.039 --> 01:34:10.659 How much time? 1899 01:34:12.399 --> 01:34:15.210 I would say that I started seriously doubting my faith 1900 01:34:15.510 --> 01:34:21.149 about five or six years into my time. So about 1982, 1983. 1901 01:34:21.149 --> 01:34:22.949 And I did not announce that I was not a 1902 01:34:22.970 --> 01:34:31.800 Christian until 2000 because Christians were saying things about– actually, 1903 01:34:31.859 --> 01:34:34.460 it was 2001. Christians were saying things about the war 1904 01:34:34.720 --> 01:34:38.600 in Iraq, about how the soldiers that we send over 1905 01:34:38.619 --> 01:34:43.380 there are the blessed peacemakers of the gospel. And I 1906 01:34:43.399 --> 01:34:47.500 didn't like that. And so the first step is you 1907 01:34:47.520 --> 01:34:50.569 start to doubt. Then you pray so that you won't 1908 01:34:50.630 --> 01:34:54.130 doubt because the Apostle Thomas said, Lord, I believe. Help 1909 01:34:54.189 --> 01:34:58.300 mine unbelief. But then after a certain point, that doesn't 1910 01:34:58.340 --> 01:35:03.439 work so well. So you start to read literature from apologetics, 1911 01:35:03.560 --> 01:35:06.479 trying to defend these, you know, defend your mind against 1912 01:35:06.520 --> 01:35:09.340 these things that you're thinking. And then you realize, I'm 1913 01:35:09.380 --> 01:35:12.739 not satisfied with those answers either. So finally, one day, 1914 01:35:13.520 --> 01:35:17.300 you reach the conclusion that I just, I just can't 1915 01:35:17.340 --> 01:35:21.199 do it anymore. I can't sustain this belief. I can't 1916 01:35:21.380 --> 01:35:24.180 pretend that I have something that I'm not. And so 1917 01:35:25.359 --> 01:35:28.619 then eventually I told my wife, I said, I just 1918 01:35:28.659 --> 01:35:31.619 don't believe this stuff anymore. I can't believe it. And 1919 01:35:34.189 --> 01:35:37.029 pretty much instantaneously, she walked out of the house and 1920 01:35:37.069 --> 01:35:40.050 we got a divorce. That was the end of that. Also, 1921 01:35:40.090 --> 01:35:42.010 if you're a Christian missionary and you're getting your income 1922 01:35:42.069 --> 01:35:44.500 from being a missionary, and then you tell people, oh, 1923 01:35:44.539 --> 01:35:46.520 I don't believe anymore, then you're unemployed. 1924 01:35:46.699 --> 01:35:48.520 Did you have any other issues in the marriage other 1925 01:35:48.560 --> 01:35:49.000 than that? 1926 01:35:49.939 --> 01:35:52.659 Yeah, it wasn't. That wasn't the only issue. But she 1927 01:35:52.699 --> 01:35:55.439 tracked up all the issues we had to what she 1928 01:35:55.500 --> 01:36:02.600 perceived as my declining faith. Oh, of course. Because, you know, 1929 01:36:04.340 --> 01:36:06.239 I loved rock music before we met. We met at 1930 01:36:06.279 --> 01:36:08.560 a Jimi Hendrix concert, and I went many years without 1931 01:36:08.600 --> 01:36:11.800 listening to rock music. And I love rock music. And 1932 01:36:11.859 --> 01:36:13.699 so I finally started listening to it again. 1933 01:36:14.310 --> 01:36:16.170 And she got upset. 1934 01:36:16.310 --> 01:36:21.750 That was a sign that I was starting to fade away. And, 1935 01:36:22.069 --> 01:36:24.409 you know, so and I'm not a perfect person. You know, 1936 01:36:24.470 --> 01:36:27.640 I would go out with Brazilian friends drinking. And that's 1937 01:36:27.800 --> 01:36:28.659 definitely a no, no. 1938 01:36:30.439 --> 01:36:34.739 And any religion that tries to keep you from Hendricks. Yeah. Yeah. 1939 01:36:35.000 --> 01:36:36.539 Can't be. Can't be a real religion. 1940 01:36:36.579 --> 01:36:38.739 My dad said to me when I first became a Christian, 1941 01:36:38.760 --> 01:36:40.939 you know, he was the epitome of an atheist, you know, 1942 01:36:41.060 --> 01:36:45.329 and he's. He said, the one thing about religions is 1943 01:36:45.770 --> 01:36:48.869 they're always trying to beat their own system. They're always 1944 01:36:48.909 --> 01:36:51.189 trying to find an exception so they don't have to 1945 01:36:51.250 --> 01:36:53.750 do the unpleasant things that religion tells them they need 1946 01:36:53.789 --> 01:36:56.630 to do. And I thought, oh, you don't know anything. 1947 01:36:58.170 --> 01:36:59.949 You don't know anything about religion. You've never been in 1948 01:37:00.010 --> 01:37:03.970 part of a church. But it's not entirely false. People 1949 01:37:04.010 --> 01:37:07.949 are always trying to make, you know, it's like another 1950 01:37:07.989 --> 01:37:10.609 expression that comes to mind when you're, If you see 1951 01:37:10.649 --> 01:37:12.890 somebody who says they're a believer and now they start 1952 01:37:12.909 --> 01:37:15.810 doing things you don't think they should do, there are 1953 01:37:15.840 --> 01:37:18.340 two reactions you could have. One is justice and one 1954 01:37:18.399 --> 01:37:21.840 is mercy. And everybody wants to give justice and get 1955 01:37:21.899 --> 01:37:28.180 mercy for their beliefs and for their transgressions. And so 1956 01:37:29.140 --> 01:37:31.859 I was giving myself mercy and my wife was giving 1957 01:37:31.899 --> 01:37:35.189 me justice. But in the end, I realized I'm not 1958 01:37:35.229 --> 01:37:37.659 going to be bound by these rules anymore. I'm just 1959 01:37:37.699 --> 01:37:39.739 going to live my life according to my best lights 1960 01:37:39.840 --> 01:37:42.140 and according to the best decisions, and I'm not going 1961 01:37:42.159 --> 01:37:44.600 to let this book tell me anymore. The ironic thing is, 1962 01:37:44.640 --> 01:37:46.579 you know, I graduated number one in my class at 1963 01:37:46.600 --> 01:37:48.359 a Bible school, so I know the Bible really well. 1964 01:37:49.279 --> 01:37:51.319 And when people try to reconvert me, I've had many 1965 01:37:51.390 --> 01:37:54.350 Christians try to reconvert me. I said, that's not going 1966 01:37:54.369 --> 01:37:56.470 to work, you know, because I know the Bible probably 1967 01:37:56.529 --> 01:37:57.970 better than you do, so you're not going to give 1968 01:37:58.010 --> 01:38:00.710 me a verse I don't know. I said, I'm not 1969 01:38:00.750 --> 01:38:02.710 telling you you're wrong, and I'm not even telling you 1970 01:38:02.750 --> 01:38:04.949 your interpretation is wrong. I'm just saying it doesn't work 1971 01:38:04.989 --> 01:38:07.010 for me, and I can't pretend that it does. 1972 01:38:07.609 --> 01:38:14.170 Right. It's got to be weird to have your beliefs 1973 01:38:14.250 --> 01:38:17.550 confronted by a group of people where as you're learning 1974 01:38:17.630 --> 01:38:23.489 their language, you're realizing that this moral framework and the 1975 01:38:23.510 --> 01:38:26.890 scaffolding that you've only attributed to Christianity and you think 1976 01:38:26.970 --> 01:38:30.869 that it's just Christianity and religion that makes people good people. 1977 01:38:31.369 --> 01:38:35.609 And then here's people that don't have any God. Right. Yeah. 1978 01:38:35.630 --> 01:38:37.350 So like, you know, you're in a big storm. The 1979 01:38:37.390 --> 01:38:40.840 Amazon has storms in the rainy season. So somebody's house 1980 01:38:40.880 --> 01:38:43.819 blows over because their houses, they're hunter gatherers and they're 1981 01:38:43.840 --> 01:38:46.590 semi nomadic. So they don't build the best houses. So 1982 01:38:46.689 --> 01:38:49.770 it's pouring rain and somebody's house blows over and they're 1983 01:38:49.789 --> 01:38:52.590 just stuck there in the rain. What is their reaction? 1984 01:38:52.909 --> 01:38:55.850 They start laughing like it's the funniest thing that ever happened. 1985 01:38:56.329 --> 01:38:58.529 And they will go off into other people's huts and 1986 01:38:58.550 --> 01:39:00.329 sleep on the ground or get near the fire or 1987 01:39:00.369 --> 01:39:02.710 they might come to my house, that's very common, and 1988 01:39:02.810 --> 01:39:04.189 want to sleep with me. And then the next day 1989 01:39:04.229 --> 01:39:08.380 they'll rebuild it. There's nothing except for fear of immediate 1990 01:39:08.449 --> 01:39:11.640 threat from the outside or from animals that gets them 1991 01:39:11.989 --> 01:39:14.840 to lose their cool. And when they do lose their cool, 1992 01:39:15.960 --> 01:39:20.569 It's not really losing their cool. It is calculated defense. 1993 01:39:21.510 --> 01:39:24.869 They know how to take care of themselves. When I 1994 01:39:24.909 --> 01:39:27.640 mentioned to this guy that they would kill him, I said, 1995 01:39:27.649 --> 01:39:29.619 they kill for a living. Don't forget that. That's how 1996 01:39:29.659 --> 01:39:33.279 they make their living. Every man there, every boy here 1997 01:39:33.680 --> 01:39:36.720 could shoot you through the eye at 50 yards with 1998 01:39:36.779 --> 01:39:39.029 one of those arrows. They're not going to miss. If 1999 01:39:39.050 --> 01:39:42.579 they decide to kill you or me, we're dead. So 2000 01:39:42.939 --> 01:39:45.590 they don't because they make a difference between killing out 2001 01:39:45.600 --> 01:39:49.789 of necessity and killing to murder. But if they think 2002 01:39:49.829 --> 01:39:51.409 they have to defend their family, you're dead. 2003 01:39:51.890 --> 01:39:55.949 But their culture doesn't encourage squabbles. Like they just– they're easygoing. 2004 01:39:56.010 --> 01:39:56.770 They take everything. 2005 01:39:57.449 --> 01:40:00.710 The biggest– if there's a concept of sin among the pitaha, 2006 01:40:00.869 --> 01:40:03.800 it is anger. You don't raise your voice in anger. 2007 01:40:03.880 --> 01:40:07.939 You don't hit another pitaha in anger. I saw a 2008 01:40:07.979 --> 01:40:10.840 guy get drunk. When they get alcohol, they get drunk. 2009 01:40:11.409 --> 01:40:13.510 and he took a shotgun that he had gotten from 2010 01:40:13.550 --> 01:40:16.770 a Brazilian, and he shot a dog that belonged to 2011 01:40:16.989 --> 01:40:21.229 his brother. And his brother runs up to the dog, 2012 01:40:21.250 --> 01:40:23.630 and he's just sobbing because they love their dogs, and 2013 01:40:23.649 --> 01:40:26.409 he's just crying that his dog's dead. And I went 2014 01:40:26.479 --> 01:40:27.840 up to him, and I thought, oh, God, there's going 2015 01:40:27.850 --> 01:40:29.500 to be some violence here. I got to get ready 2016 01:40:29.539 --> 01:40:31.479 for this. And I said, what are you going to do? 2017 01:40:31.539 --> 01:40:34.180 He said, what do you mean? I said, are you 2018 01:40:34.199 --> 01:40:36.239 going to do anything to your brother? He shot your dog. 2019 01:40:36.319 --> 01:40:38.819 He said, I don't do anything to my brother. He's 2020 01:40:38.859 --> 01:40:40.760 my brother. He shouldn't have shot my dog, but he's 2021 01:40:40.800 --> 01:40:43.300 drunk and his head's not working. You know, I miss 2022 01:40:43.319 --> 01:40:45.239 my dog. I love my dog, but I love my brother. 2023 01:40:45.260 --> 01:40:47.619 I'm not going to hurt my brother. So they just 2024 01:40:47.659 --> 01:40:48.479 don't react that way. 2025 01:40:48.899 --> 01:40:50.979 So do they have punishment for crimes? 2026 01:40:52.279 --> 01:40:55.689 They have punishment if it threatens the survival of the village. 2027 01:40:55.779 --> 01:40:58.890 So there was one young man, a teenager, and I 2028 01:40:58.949 --> 01:41:02.369 talk about him in, um, in both my book, don't 2029 01:41:02.409 --> 01:41:04.130 sleep through our snakes. And in the new one that's 2030 01:41:04.170 --> 01:41:08.399 coming out next year, born of the river, um, who 2031 01:41:08.460 --> 01:41:12.189 was paid in alcohol and a new shotgun to kill 2032 01:41:12.810 --> 01:41:17.710 somebody who was living up the river, who wasn't a pitaha, 2033 01:41:17.949 --> 01:41:21.829 living on the same river. And he killed him. And 2034 01:41:21.850 --> 01:41:25.529 the pitaha saw this as an existential threat to the 2035 01:41:25.550 --> 01:41:28.079 whole community because they knew that the police could come up. 2036 01:41:28.430 --> 01:41:30.729 They knew that soldiers could come up. They knew that 2037 01:41:31.340 --> 01:41:34.699 many pitaha could be killed if this wasn't handled. So 2038 01:41:34.840 --> 01:41:36.380 they didn't hurt him, but they kicked him out of 2039 01:41:36.399 --> 01:41:37.760 the village. He had to live on his own. And 2040 01:41:37.800 --> 01:41:41.220 he died about two months later. He was dead. It's 2041 01:41:41.260 --> 01:41:42.680 hard to live on your own in the middle of 2042 01:41:42.720 --> 01:41:45.359 the jungle with no community and nobody who has anything 2043 01:41:45.399 --> 01:41:49.409 to do with you. Just shun. Wow. So that's the 2044 01:41:49.449 --> 01:41:51.609 worst punishment they have. Banishment. Banishment. 2045 01:41:52.789 --> 01:41:56.149 Banishment in the jungle is crazy. Yeah. What did they 2046 01:41:56.189 --> 01:41:58.170 give him to survive? Was it like you when you 2047 01:41:58.189 --> 01:41:58.630 were learning? 2048 01:41:59.270 --> 01:41:59.750 He got nothing. 2049 01:42:00.069 --> 01:42:00.390 Nothing. 2050 01:42:00.510 --> 01:42:03.060 Yeah, get out. He could take what he had. But 2051 01:42:03.159 --> 01:42:05.060 nobody gave him anything else. So he had a bow 2052 01:42:05.100 --> 01:42:06.939 and arrow, no food, no clothes. 2053 01:42:07.220 --> 01:42:07.920 How did he die? 2054 01:42:09.939 --> 01:42:12.260 Well, that I don't know because I just know that 2055 01:42:12.340 --> 01:42:15.470 when I came, I would ask about him, and then 2056 01:42:15.489 --> 01:42:18.850 they said, oh, he's dead. So there's two possibilities. He died, 2057 01:42:19.170 --> 01:42:22.250 naturally death, which I think is probably what happened, or 2058 01:42:22.289 --> 01:42:22.960 somebody killed him. 2059 01:42:23.649 --> 01:42:25.250 And then changed their name. I didn't do it. 2060 01:42:25.439 --> 01:42:29.140 Yeah, yeah. That could have easily happened. 2061 01:42:29.199 --> 01:42:31.260 The change of the name gag is awesome. 2062 01:42:31.800 --> 01:42:34.420 Everybody up there is violent. You see Brazilians coming up 2063 01:42:34.460 --> 01:42:37.680 in these boats. Many of them are like pirates. I mean, 2064 01:42:37.699 --> 01:42:40.760 they don't practice piracy now. Some of them do. But 2065 01:42:40.859 --> 01:42:43.500 you go on a boat with these guys, and these 2066 01:42:43.560 --> 01:42:46.180 are some tough-looking guys. They've got scars on their faces 2067 01:42:46.239 --> 01:42:48.770 and scars on their– these are knife fights. These are 2068 01:42:48.810 --> 01:42:54.350 guys who– like I got really mad at somebody once, 2069 01:42:55.130 --> 01:42:57.449 and I mentioned to another Brazilian. I said, if he 2070 01:42:57.470 --> 01:42:58.989 keeps doing that, I'm going to punch him in the face. 2071 01:42:59.029 --> 01:43:01.220 And he says– If you punch him in the face, 2072 01:43:01.239 --> 01:43:03.859 he's going to kill you. He'll either get a knife 2073 01:43:03.939 --> 01:43:05.739 or he'll get a gun. So if you decide you're 2074 01:43:05.760 --> 01:43:07.640 going to hit somebody, you better be armed because they're 2075 01:43:07.659 --> 01:43:09.319 going to come at you with whatever weapon they can 2076 01:43:09.340 --> 01:43:09.800 get their hands on. 2077 01:43:09.800 --> 01:43:11.180 You really thought that you were just going to be 2078 01:43:11.199 --> 01:43:11.800 able to punch him? 2079 01:43:13.159 --> 01:43:16.210 I was just talking, but I obviously didn't have a 2080 01:43:16.250 --> 01:43:18.670 lot of– my dad liked to fight a lot. 2081 01:43:18.890 --> 01:43:22.050 Were you guys drunk at the time when you were 2082 01:43:22.069 --> 01:43:24.369 doing this? Oh, no. 2083 01:43:24.449 --> 01:43:26.810 I wasn't drunk. This guy was drunk and he was 2084 01:43:27.310 --> 01:43:29.930 pushing and he was– giving my daughters, who by that 2085 01:43:29.970 --> 01:43:33.729 time were pretty little blonde teenagers, a hard time. And 2086 01:43:33.750 --> 01:43:37.449 I told him to get away. And he wanted to fight. 2087 01:43:38.210 --> 01:43:41.210 And I got it calmed down, but I thought, you know, 2088 01:43:41.250 --> 01:43:42.770 if he keeps trying, I'm going to punch him in 2089 01:43:42.800 --> 01:43:45.539 the face. And I told this guy that, and he said, 2090 01:43:45.560 --> 01:43:47.500 you don't do that out here. Unless you're willing to 2091 01:43:47.539 --> 01:43:50.439 kill him right now, don't do that. Because he's not 2092 01:43:50.479 --> 01:43:52.939 going to fight you fair. He's going to come at 2093 01:43:52.979 --> 01:43:54.920 you when you're not expecting it, and you're going to die. 2094 01:43:55.880 --> 01:43:56.020 So. 2095 01:43:56.909 --> 01:44:00.369 This is– it's just a different concept. So avoiding violence 2096 01:44:00.770 --> 01:44:04.850 has lots of reasons to be done. 2097 01:44:04.869 --> 01:44:07.979 I agree with that at all times. Yeah. I think 2098 01:44:08.020 --> 01:44:09.819 people should constantly avoid violence. 2099 01:44:10.359 --> 01:44:12.819 I completely agree too and the PETA has shown you that. 2100 01:44:12.859 --> 01:44:16.279 These are people who are much better at violence than 2101 01:44:16.880 --> 01:44:20.100 most people in this country without guns. 2102 01:44:20.720 --> 01:44:21.619 And they avoid it at all costs. 2103 01:44:21.640 --> 01:44:23.119 And they avoid it at all costs. 2104 01:44:23.189 --> 01:44:23.890 Yeah. Wise. 2105 01:44:24.449 --> 01:44:25.289 Yeah, very wise. 2106 01:44:25.789 --> 01:44:28.300 What did you think when you were just looking at 2107 01:44:28.359 --> 01:44:32.000 the framework that they live by that these people don't 2108 01:44:32.039 --> 01:44:36.079 have a God, that they don't have like someone watching over, 2109 01:44:36.159 --> 01:44:38.560 making sure they're doing the right thing all the time 2110 01:44:38.659 --> 01:44:42.890 or this punishment of being burning forever in hell? None 2111 01:44:42.899 --> 01:44:44.590 of that is motivating them. No. 2112 01:44:45.069 --> 01:44:47.270 And I also thought that they would be afraid of death. 2113 01:44:47.529 --> 01:44:51.430 They're not. I thought they would be afraid of the unknown. 2114 01:44:51.729 --> 01:44:55.710 They're not. They're willing to learn. I sit outside on 2115 01:44:55.750 --> 01:44:59.329 the riverbank with them and they point out satellites going 2116 01:44:59.369 --> 01:45:03.050 overhead because they know the sky so well that they say, 2117 01:45:03.069 --> 01:45:06.010 what's that? And I look and it's like, must be 2118 01:45:06.029 --> 01:45:08.489 a satellite. I said, it's like a radio thing because 2119 01:45:08.520 --> 01:45:10.500 they have radio. I mean, they don't have radios, but 2120 01:45:10.539 --> 01:45:14.140 I have radio. And they said, well, who put that 2121 01:45:14.199 --> 01:45:17.899 up there? I said, I don't know. I said, Americans, 2122 01:45:18.859 --> 01:45:21.399 I think. And they said, You know how to do that? 2123 01:45:21.460 --> 01:45:22.659 I said, no, I don't know how to do that. 2124 01:45:22.720 --> 01:45:24.560 So they said some other Americans know how to do that. 2125 01:45:24.590 --> 01:45:26.109 I said, yeah, I don't know how to do that. 2126 01:45:27.630 --> 01:45:30.310 But they're very conscious of their environment. 2127 01:45:30.689 --> 01:45:31.350 Right. 2128 01:45:31.590 --> 01:45:33.930 And they're very curious and they want to learn these things. 2129 01:45:34.550 --> 01:45:36.270 But if I told them that God put it up there, 2130 01:45:36.529 --> 01:45:37.409 they wouldn't pay attention. 2131 01:45:37.789 --> 01:45:42.140 Now, they have these spirits that we talked about earlier 2132 01:45:42.359 --> 01:45:46.979 where they believe a thing embodies a spirit. Like it 2133 01:45:47.020 --> 01:45:49.699 could be like a jaguar embodies a spirit. Yes, exactly. 2134 01:45:50.810 --> 01:45:53.529 So they have some spirit. So that's a spirit we 2135 01:45:53.569 --> 01:45:55.810 haven't talked about yet. So they have this spirit, Igagai, 2136 01:45:56.369 --> 01:46:00.449 which they believe– so they might see a man and 2137 01:46:00.470 --> 01:46:02.329 then they might see a jaguar and then they say, 2138 01:46:02.350 --> 01:46:04.760 that must be the same thing. This man became a 2139 01:46:04.800 --> 01:46:08.119 jaguar or the jaguar became a man. And this is 2140 01:46:08.159 --> 01:46:13.279 a belief that is in fact shape-shifting. It's not an 2141 01:46:13.340 --> 01:46:16.560 uncommon belief in the Amazon among even Brazilians that live there. 2142 01:46:17.390 --> 01:46:21.180 So– One time I got up in the morning and 2143 01:46:21.260 --> 01:46:23.680 everybody was yelling and pointing at the beach on the 2144 01:46:23.720 --> 01:46:27.739 other side. And I said, what are we looking at? 2145 01:46:28.020 --> 01:46:30.640 They said, can't you see it? I said, I don't 2146 01:46:30.680 --> 01:46:34.119 see anything. And they said, that's Igagai. And I didn't 2147 01:46:34.180 --> 01:46:38.460 see anything. Then later, a few nights later, somebody said, 2148 01:46:38.659 --> 01:46:41.380 we've seen Igagai. It's dark. It's night. And the guy 2149 01:46:41.399 --> 01:46:43.260 wakes me up. He says, we've seen Igagai. He's not 2150 01:46:43.319 --> 01:46:45.939 far behind your house. Would you come with us? Because 2151 01:46:45.979 --> 01:46:48.159 we know you're not afraid of him. You know, and 2152 01:46:48.220 --> 01:46:51.399 I fell for that. And so we go out there 2153 01:46:51.420 --> 01:46:53.439 and then I turn around and they're not by me. 2154 01:46:53.920 --> 01:46:57.380 Because Igagai can also refer to the jaguar shape. So 2155 01:46:57.640 --> 01:47:00.270 there's a jaguar out there. And I just won't go 2156 01:47:00.310 --> 01:47:02.489 walking out there with a machete, you know. And then 2157 01:47:02.529 --> 01:47:04.250 I realized they're not with me. And I go back 2158 01:47:04.289 --> 01:47:06.270 and they said, did you see it? I said, no, 2159 01:47:06.310 --> 01:47:11.979 I didn't see anything. But if they see a jaguar, 2160 01:47:12.560 --> 01:47:14.600 they believe that it could be a jaguar or it 2161 01:47:14.659 --> 01:47:16.159 could be Igagai. 2162 01:47:17.039 --> 01:47:19.590 But when they were seeing this Igagai and you couldn't 2163 01:47:19.619 --> 01:47:22.050 see anything, they were seeing it. Yes. 2164 01:47:22.310 --> 01:47:27.949 And I was looking for a human-looking creature. But it's 2165 01:47:27.989 --> 01:47:31.270 very possible that there was a jaguar just inside the 2166 01:47:31.350 --> 01:47:32.329 forest that I didn't see. 2167 01:47:32.350 --> 01:47:33.789 But they could see it and you couldn't. 2168 01:47:34.369 --> 01:47:36.890 Yeah, because– well, yeah. But if you walk around with 2169 01:47:36.909 --> 01:47:38.829 them in the jungle, you find that they can see 2170 01:47:38.869 --> 01:47:41.149 a lot of things you can't see. So once I 2171 01:47:41.189 --> 01:47:43.489 was walking with a guy down a path and he said, oh, 2172 01:47:43.630 --> 01:47:46.489 don't step on that snake. It's a bushmaster. And I said, what? 2173 01:47:47.220 --> 01:47:49.020 And I'm looking down. I'm looking at the path. I 2174 01:47:49.060 --> 01:47:52.640 don't see anything. And I said, what snake? And he 2175 01:47:52.680 --> 01:47:55.560 takes his bow and he shoots. And the arrow starts 2176 01:47:56.000 --> 01:47:58.039 flocking around like that. And he pulls it up. And 2177 01:47:58.060 --> 01:47:59.760 there's a Bushmaster at the end. He said, that one. 2178 01:48:00.300 --> 01:48:02.920 Don't step on that one. And I didn't see it. 2179 01:48:03.060 --> 01:48:07.420 And I've almost put my hand on snakes. I don't 2180 01:48:07.460 --> 01:48:11.560 know why I'm still alive. Because it's like I'm a 2181 01:48:12.310 --> 01:48:15.869 special needs person. They have to watch out for me 2182 01:48:15.909 --> 01:48:18.180 when I'm in the jungle. Because It takes a lot 2183 01:48:18.220 --> 01:48:20.579 of skill to be able to see these things. Just 2184 01:48:20.619 --> 01:48:22.500 like when I take them to the city for like 2185 01:48:22.659 --> 01:48:26.659 medical work, they get totally lost. They can't– it's hard 2186 01:48:26.680 --> 01:48:28.390 for them to understand how I can find my way 2187 01:48:28.430 --> 01:48:33.130 around the city because the cues that I'm using are 2188 01:48:33.189 --> 01:48:34.770 totally different than the things they're used to. 2189 01:48:35.300 --> 01:48:38.520 So this Igagai, this thing that they said they saw, 2190 01:48:38.600 --> 01:48:41.239 they could have just been seeing an animal and saying 2191 01:48:41.460 --> 01:48:44.479 it was Igagai and agreeing that it was a spirit. 2192 01:48:44.819 --> 01:48:47.489 And that's not like they're seeing a spirit that you're 2193 01:48:47.529 --> 01:48:50.829 not seeing. Did you ever take that into consideration that 2194 01:48:50.869 --> 01:48:52.770 perhaps they can see things you can't see? 2195 01:48:52.949 --> 01:48:55.390 Yes, that is another possibility. And I definitely took that. 2196 01:48:55.689 --> 01:48:58.210 In fact, for the first several years before I had 2197 01:48:58.270 --> 01:49:02.520 really investigated the different shape shifting of Igagai, I thought 2198 01:49:02.529 --> 01:49:04.979 that's all it could mean. They were seeing something. And 2199 01:49:05.079 --> 01:49:06.800 I couldn't see it. They were all seeing it. 2200 01:49:06.850 --> 01:49:10.229 So you took that into consideration that maybe they have 2201 01:49:10.270 --> 01:49:12.050 a sense that you don't have? Yes. 2202 01:49:12.489 --> 01:49:16.529 And it's clear that they have senses in the jungle. 2203 01:49:16.569 --> 01:49:18.229 They're able to sense things that I cannot. 2204 01:49:18.529 --> 01:49:18.930 Like how? 2205 01:49:19.979 --> 01:49:26.399 Well, like I say, they've grown up learning. So let's 2206 01:49:26.439 --> 01:49:28.260 say that you see a branch move in a tree. 2207 01:49:29.460 --> 01:49:32.850 Was that the wind? Was that a monkey moving? Was 2208 01:49:32.890 --> 01:49:35.100 that a snake up in the tree? What was it? 2209 01:49:36.270 --> 01:49:36.649 I don't know. 2210 01:49:36.890 --> 01:49:39.960 I barely noticed that the branches make moving. But they 2211 01:49:40.000 --> 01:49:42.630 know not only that it's moving, but exactly what caused it. 2212 01:49:42.979 --> 01:49:45.520 I can see bubbles coming out of the water from 2213 01:49:45.560 --> 01:49:49.520 the river. They're just bubbles to me. But to them, 2214 01:49:49.779 --> 01:49:55.550 they represent either a rock underneath or an alligator or 2215 01:49:55.649 --> 01:49:58.449 some other creature that's under the water. And they can 2216 01:49:58.470 --> 01:50:01.699 tell by the bubbles. But I can't. So they've learned to... 2217 01:50:02.489 --> 01:50:06.109 interpret their world in a way that I can't. 2218 01:50:06.529 --> 01:50:10.029 So it's not that they don't have senses that they 2219 01:50:10.090 --> 01:50:11.960 have senses that you don't have, but that they have 2220 01:50:12.020 --> 01:50:12.979 pattern recognition. 2221 01:50:13.819 --> 01:50:18.060 That's the way I would put it. But again, you 2222 01:50:18.079 --> 01:50:22.739 would need to do some sort of psychological testing and 2223 01:50:22.850 --> 01:50:25.569 much more controlled conditions than I've ever been able to 2224 01:50:25.630 --> 01:50:29.630 do to sort those things out. But my view now 2225 01:50:29.770 --> 01:50:33.460 is that they simply have the ability to recognize and, 2226 01:50:34.180 --> 01:50:37.449 and perceive things that they've grown up with that I 2227 01:50:37.489 --> 01:50:38.250 miss entirely. 2228 01:50:39.489 --> 01:50:45.029 And this spirit thing, does it always embody a creature 2229 01:50:45.130 --> 01:50:48.569 that they're, that they're, that's common like a Jaguar or 2230 01:50:48.649 --> 01:50:51.939 does it sometimes take on another form? 2231 01:50:54.159 --> 01:50:57.720 It can take these, these, um, entities that I've talked about. 2232 01:50:58.680 --> 01:51:06.050 So there's another one, um, um, I, which has long teeth. 2233 01:51:07.010 --> 01:51:10.010 And so they see these different creatures. One's naked, talks 2234 01:51:10.050 --> 01:51:16.060 in a high voice. And so they're putting experiences they 2235 01:51:16.140 --> 01:51:20.079 can't explain into the shapes of these entities that they 2236 01:51:20.140 --> 01:51:23.810 can explain. So just like us, we see so many 2237 01:51:23.850 --> 01:51:26.069 things in the world we don't understand. That's what science 2238 01:51:26.109 --> 01:51:30.069 is all about. So we create theoretical entities to be 2239 01:51:30.170 --> 01:51:33.810 able to explain those observations that we otherwise have no 2240 01:51:33.890 --> 01:51:39.720 explanation for. So in a sense, these separate entities are 2241 01:51:39.739 --> 01:51:41.880 a primitive form. I shouldn't even use the word primitive. 2242 01:51:41.899 --> 01:51:44.979 They're a form of science given what they have. They're 2243 01:51:45.460 --> 01:51:48.739 reducing the unexplained to the explainable. 2244 01:51:49.470 --> 01:51:53.689 And their audit of the jungle is limited to the 2245 01:51:53.829 --> 01:51:57.329 places that they've traveled. Right. So their version of the 2246 01:51:57.409 --> 01:52:01.350 world is entirely limited to the language they possess. Is 2247 01:52:01.409 --> 01:52:02.069 it written at all? 2248 01:52:02.970 --> 01:52:05.050 I developed a writing system for them, yes. 2249 01:52:05.069 --> 01:52:08.390 But before you know. Before you know. So non-written language, 2250 01:52:08.510 --> 01:52:12.819 verbal language with no historical database to draw from. Right. 2251 01:52:13.560 --> 01:52:16.180 But they actually get some really good skills out of this. 2252 01:52:16.220 --> 01:52:19.229 So I took a guy to the nearest town. a 2253 01:52:19.270 --> 01:52:21.670 big town, Porto Velho. It's the capital of a Brazilian 2254 01:52:21.729 --> 01:52:25.489 state because he had cirrhosis of the liver, however he 2255 01:52:25.510 --> 01:52:28.090 got that. And I took him to the hospital. First, 2256 01:52:28.130 --> 01:52:30.470 we went to my house that I had in that 2257 01:52:30.550 --> 01:52:34.229 city on the missionary compound. He had never been out 2258 01:52:34.350 --> 01:52:35.949 of the jungle before in his life. So we go 2259 01:52:35.989 --> 01:52:38.550 there and we have lunch. And I said, now it's 2260 01:52:38.590 --> 01:52:40.529 time to go to the hospital. So I take him 2261 01:52:40.550 --> 01:52:42.149 to the hospital and he says, I don't want to 2262 01:52:42.210 --> 01:52:44.850 stay here. I said, the doctors say you have to 2263 01:52:44.890 --> 01:52:47.079 stay here so they can make you feel better. And 2264 01:52:47.100 --> 01:52:49.100 so then I drive off after I spent a couple 2265 01:52:49.119 --> 01:52:54.949 of hours with him. And the next morning, about 6 a.m., 2266 01:52:55.449 --> 01:52:57.930 there's this knocking on my door. So this is 30 2267 01:52:57.930 --> 01:53:01.149 miles away. The hospital is 30 miles away. And he's 2268 01:53:01.210 --> 01:53:03.850 standing there wearing a hospital gown with no underwear or 2269 01:53:03.890 --> 01:53:07.380 anything on. And I said, how did you find my house? 2270 01:53:07.960 --> 01:53:10.840 He said, well, I just walked here. I said, but 2271 01:53:10.880 --> 01:53:12.279 how did you know how to walk here? Well, I 2272 01:53:12.300 --> 01:53:14.819 saw it yesterday. But all he had to do was 2273 01:53:14.840 --> 01:53:18.810 get the river where the river is. And then mentally 2274 01:53:18.850 --> 01:53:22.770 compute where we're at. So many experiments have shown that 2275 01:53:22.810 --> 01:53:25.649 people who don't have right and left, front and back, 2276 01:53:25.720 --> 01:53:28.819 but use absolute directions like up river, down river, to 2277 01:53:28.840 --> 01:53:32.439 the jungle, away from the jungle, are better at finding 2278 01:53:32.479 --> 01:53:35.439 their way in new places than we are. You know, 2279 01:53:35.479 --> 01:53:37.699 I can tell you turn north, and you might know 2280 01:53:37.720 --> 01:53:39.859 what I'm talking about. For the average person, I say 2281 01:53:40.399 --> 01:53:42.100 turn north. If your life depends on it, you don't 2282 01:53:42.119 --> 01:53:45.500 know which way to turn. But they would know. And 2283 01:53:45.560 --> 01:53:48.560 so that gives him a better sense of a map 2284 01:53:49.000 --> 01:53:49.619 of where they're at. 2285 01:53:49.939 --> 01:53:51.539 So do they have a word for north? 2286 01:53:52.739 --> 01:53:56.140 No, they only use upriver. So the first thing they 2287 01:53:56.159 --> 01:53:57.720 have to do, the first thing he did when we 2288 01:53:57.739 --> 01:54:00.960 got him out to town was, where's the river? And 2289 01:54:01.000 --> 01:54:03.239 I showed him the river. And now he knew where 2290 01:54:03.279 --> 01:54:07.710 everything was. Because he got the river and he's got 2291 01:54:07.750 --> 01:54:09.590 my house. Now he knows where everything is. 2292 01:54:09.590 --> 01:54:11.069 30 miles away. 2293 01:54:11.350 --> 01:54:12.270 Yeah, 30 miles away. 2294 01:54:12.770 --> 01:54:14.390 But doesn't the river wind? 2295 01:54:14.649 --> 01:54:17.229 Yes, but they know how rivers work. And they can 2296 01:54:17.270 --> 01:54:19.109 tell by the direction which way it's flowing. And when 2297 01:54:19.140 --> 01:54:20.640 he looks at it, he knows which way is up 2298 01:54:20.689 --> 01:54:22.439 river and down river based on the way the water 2299 01:54:22.479 --> 01:54:25.800 is flowing. And he walked out barefoot with nothing but 2300 01:54:25.819 --> 01:54:29.560 a hospital gown on, 30 kilometers. And so he left 2301 01:54:29.619 --> 01:54:31.300 at night and he got there first thing in the morning. 2302 01:54:31.520 --> 01:54:31.920 Wow. 2303 01:54:32.140 --> 01:54:33.979 And I said, well, we have to go back. He said, 2304 01:54:34.119 --> 01:54:36.619 I am not going back. I said, well, the doctor 2305 01:54:36.640 --> 01:54:38.539 says you'll die if you don't go back. He says, well, 2306 01:54:38.560 --> 01:54:40.140 I'm going to die then because I'm not going back. 2307 01:54:40.649 --> 01:54:42.250 He said, I would rather go back and die with 2308 01:54:42.289 --> 01:54:44.689 my people. And so I took him back and a 2309 01:54:44.729 --> 01:54:45.850 few days later he was dead. 2310 01:54:47.180 --> 01:54:47.840 Was he a drinker? 2311 01:54:48.760 --> 01:54:51.859 He had been, yeah. There was a time before I 2312 01:54:51.920 --> 01:54:56.279 helped the Indian agency demarcate their reservation so it could 2313 01:54:56.300 --> 01:54:59.560 be controlled that boats came up and down all the 2314 01:54:59.619 --> 01:55:04.140 time when the Brazil nuts were falling and when there 2315 01:55:04.159 --> 01:55:07.210 were other jungle products like latex and sorva, which is 2316 01:55:07.250 --> 01:55:09.470 a product used to make chewing gum and all sorts 2317 01:55:09.510 --> 01:55:12.649 of other things. And Copaiba, which is used for suntan lotion. 2318 01:55:12.689 --> 01:55:14.960 So the Brazilian boats would come up and trade for 2319 01:55:15.000 --> 01:55:17.439 all these things. And they always traded with whiskey because 2320 01:55:17.500 --> 01:55:21.880 that's the– I mean sugarcane rum, cachaça, which is the 2321 01:55:21.920 --> 01:55:25.000 cheapest thing. It's $ 0. 30 a bottle. It was a lot 2322 01:55:25.039 --> 01:55:26.699 easier to give them that and the pitahal like it. 2323 01:55:27.569 --> 01:55:28.930 I told him one time. I said, this stuff is 2324 01:55:28.949 --> 01:55:31.649 really cheap. He said, not for us it isn't. We 2325 01:55:31.689 --> 01:55:35.949 don't otherwise get it and we like it. So they 2326 01:55:35.989 --> 01:55:36.489 like to drink. 2327 01:55:36.590 --> 01:55:40.560 Did they understand the concept of health? Of the consequences 2328 01:55:40.600 --> 01:55:41.479 of drinking alcohol? 2329 01:55:41.739 --> 01:55:44.460 No, because if you're a hunter-gatherer and you're not used 2330 01:55:44.500 --> 01:55:47.619 to having something in constant supply, you don't have to 2331 01:55:47.640 --> 01:55:50.550 worry about it. But once it comes in constant supply, 2332 01:55:50.560 --> 01:55:52.729 then you do have to worry about it. And when 2333 01:55:52.750 --> 01:55:55.909 these guys keep coming up, leaving this stuff off, then 2334 01:55:55.930 --> 01:55:58.770 it becomes a serious health problem. Whereas before, it was 2335 01:55:58.789 --> 01:56:01.310 like I got drunk six months ago. Right. You know, 2336 01:56:01.369 --> 01:56:02.710 it's not a big deal. Right. 2337 01:56:02.789 --> 01:56:06.630 So once it became commonplace. Yeah. And Do they adjust 2338 01:56:06.670 --> 01:56:10.510 their behavior based on people dying of like liver sclerosis? 2339 01:56:10.710 --> 01:56:14.350 Not that I've ever seen. They don't– I can tell 2340 01:56:14.380 --> 01:56:16.600 them until I'm blue in the face that it's the 2341 01:56:16.680 --> 01:56:19.680 alcohol that's doing this or the tobacco that's doing this. 2342 01:56:21.119 --> 01:56:23.239 Why would they believe me? They know a lot of 2343 01:56:23.279 --> 01:56:25.560 guys who have drunk a lot of whiskey and they 2344 01:56:25.579 --> 01:56:28.649 don't have it. So these couple of guys got it. 2345 01:56:29.380 --> 01:56:33.130 How do I know that's what caused it? So they 2346 01:56:33.170 --> 01:56:34.050 don't take my word on faith. 2347 01:56:34.149 --> 01:56:34.670 It's very childlike. 2348 01:56:36.289 --> 01:56:39.949 It is childlike in the sense that children learn by evidence. 2349 01:56:40.750 --> 01:56:44.779 And if children don't have evidence for something, I mean– 2350 01:56:44.840 --> 01:56:46.609 and it takes a while for the evidence to start 2351 01:56:46.649 --> 01:56:48.689 to sink in. You've got to repeat the experiment. 2352 01:56:49.060 --> 01:56:52.020 Right. But you would imagine that if they're intelligent people, 2353 01:56:52.119 --> 01:56:57.699 you could explain this consumption of alcohol when done infrequently, 2354 01:56:57.760 --> 01:57:01.300 it's OK. But the everyday consumption of alcohol because you 2355 01:57:01.319 --> 01:57:03.920 have an endless supply of it now is becoming a 2356 01:57:03.939 --> 01:57:04.579 real problem. 2357 01:57:04.939 --> 01:57:06.760 That's a very good point, and I have brought that 2358 01:57:06.819 --> 01:57:10.340 up with them before, and they say, yeah, we know 2359 01:57:10.359 --> 01:57:11.840 a lot of Brazilians that drink, and they don't get 2360 01:57:11.880 --> 01:57:15.770 that sickness. So they come right up. It's like I 2361 01:57:15.810 --> 01:57:19.329 could tell you that the COVID vaccine is really good 2362 01:57:19.369 --> 01:57:20.869 for you, and you can say, well, I know a 2363 01:57:20.869 --> 01:57:22.090 lot of people didn't get it, and they didn't get 2364 01:57:22.130 --> 01:57:25.949 COVID either. They weren't vaccinated. They didn't get COVID. So 2365 01:57:25.970 --> 01:57:29.850 you have to look at the statistics, and even there, 2366 01:57:30.010 --> 01:57:30.850 it's hard. 2367 01:57:31.560 --> 01:57:34.260 They just don't seem very concerned with dying anyway. 2368 01:57:35.010 --> 01:57:38.869 They're not. They don't want to die right now, but 2369 01:57:39.350 --> 01:57:40.989 it happens, and they're not worried about it. 2370 01:57:42.229 --> 01:57:46.020 What do they think? Do they have a purpose for life? 2371 01:57:46.460 --> 01:57:49.659 Do they have a thing they worship at all? 2372 01:57:50.800 --> 01:57:55.649 No, they don't worship anything. The community is everything. You 2373 01:57:55.689 --> 01:57:59.149 make a contribution to the community while you're alive, and 2374 01:57:59.210 --> 01:57:59.989 that's your purpose. 2375 01:58:00.710 --> 01:58:01.109 That's it. 2376 01:58:01.289 --> 01:58:04.920 That's it. And it doesn't take any thought. You don't 2377 01:58:04.960 --> 01:58:07.039 need somebody to give a lesson. This is what our 2378 01:58:07.079 --> 01:58:10.000 purpose is, folks. You just see everybody living. and that's 2379 01:58:10.039 --> 01:58:10.539 how you live. 2380 01:58:10.560 --> 01:58:14.340 Isn't it odd that that's not the primary way people 2381 01:58:14.399 --> 01:58:18.859 live that makes you so happy? It's interesting because even me, 2382 01:58:19.119 --> 01:58:21.439 I'm hearing this. I'm like, God, it's so appealing. But 2383 01:58:21.560 --> 01:58:23.380 part of me is like, I'm not fucking living like that. 2384 01:58:23.659 --> 01:58:25.520 You know, nobody wants to live like that. It just 2385 01:58:25.550 --> 01:58:29.090 seems too crazy, too difficult, too daunting. I don't want to. 2386 01:58:29.350 --> 01:58:31.869 get bit by a snake and have my bones exposed? 2387 01:58:32.130 --> 01:58:34.170 Well, I often think this when I talk to people 2388 01:58:34.210 --> 01:58:37.689 who are extreme ecologists who think we need to not 2389 01:58:37.729 --> 01:58:39.989 affect the environment. And I'm thinking, yeah, well, go live 2390 01:58:40.010 --> 01:58:42.050 with the pitaha. You know, you're not going to last 2391 01:58:42.090 --> 01:58:46.000 three days there with them. Maybe a few days more, 2392 01:58:46.060 --> 01:58:51.220 but not much. So it is very appealing. And I 2393 01:58:51.279 --> 01:58:54.000 live there and enjoyed it. But while I was living there, 2394 01:58:54.140 --> 01:58:56.119 I had things they didn't have access to. So I 2395 01:58:56.510 --> 01:58:58.770 I can't fairly say that I live just like them. 2396 01:58:58.850 --> 01:58:59.710 And you could always leave. 2397 01:59:00.010 --> 01:59:02.270 And I can always leave, yeah. I mean, I can 2398 01:59:02.689 --> 01:59:06.029 get in my motorboat and take off. Or in the 2399 01:59:06.069 --> 01:59:08.949 worst case, I can get on my two-way radio or 2400 01:59:09.029 --> 01:59:10.840 satellite phone and call for help. 2401 01:59:11.140 --> 01:59:13.500 Did you ever think about just saying, fuck it, stay 2402 01:59:13.520 --> 01:59:14.819 there forever? Yeah. 2403 01:59:15.159 --> 01:59:17.020 In the early years, I did think about it. I 2404 01:59:17.039 --> 01:59:20.140 thought about not pursuing any kind of graduate degree, not 2405 01:59:20.199 --> 01:59:23.939 worrying about ever coming back to the U.S. And I 2406 01:59:23.979 --> 01:59:26.550 was really loving it there. But then I realized— My 2407 01:59:26.609 --> 01:59:31.649 kids wanted a wider experience, and I didn't have the 2408 01:59:31.689 --> 01:59:32.850 right to deprive them of that. 2409 01:59:32.869 --> 01:59:34.149 So you think if you were single, you would have 2410 01:59:34.170 --> 01:59:34.810 just integrated? 2411 01:59:35.569 --> 01:59:38.399 It's very possible. Yeah, I mean, that would have been 2412 01:59:38.439 --> 01:59:41.180 easy to do, although I would have had to become 2413 01:59:41.260 --> 01:59:45.399 much better at outdoor skills than I ever was. I mean, 2414 01:59:45.439 --> 01:59:48.460 I would not stand up to a pitaha's standards of 2415 01:59:48.539 --> 01:59:51.479 hunting and fishing, and no woman would have married me 2416 01:59:51.840 --> 01:59:53.460 because they would have starved to death. 2417 01:59:54.850 --> 01:59:56.430 Did you ever get better at those things? 2418 01:59:57.250 --> 02:00:02.949 Not really. No? For one thing, I like to hunt. 2419 02:00:03.069 --> 02:00:05.409 I started hunting when I was like 10 years old, 2420 02:00:05.479 --> 02:00:09.060 pheasant hunting, dove hunting. And so I do enjoy that, 2421 02:00:09.680 --> 02:00:14.140 but I've never given it the time to become really 2422 02:00:14.180 --> 02:00:16.119 good at it. Now, if I were abandoned in the jungle, 2423 02:00:16.319 --> 02:00:19.260 I probably would, but it would take me a long time. 2424 02:00:19.659 --> 02:00:22.000 These guys are using bows and arrows from the time 2425 02:00:22.020 --> 02:00:24.420 they're two years old. So by the time they get 2426 02:00:24.920 --> 02:00:29.020 To be teenagers, they're perfect. They are absolutely unmatchless in 2427 02:00:29.039 --> 02:00:32.159 their skill. And I've done little archery contests before to 2428 02:00:32.199 --> 02:00:35.850 see how good they are. And it's just astounding. So 2429 02:00:36.310 --> 02:00:39.109 I would have to spend many years practicing to get 2430 02:00:39.149 --> 02:00:41.630 as good as they are. And then in the meantime, 2431 02:00:41.649 --> 02:00:43.289 I would starve to death because they're not going to 2432 02:00:43.329 --> 02:00:43.670 feed me. 2433 02:00:45.590 --> 02:00:46.909 How are they making their bows? 2434 02:00:48.819 --> 02:00:50.960 There's a couple of different kinds of wood that they use. 2435 02:00:51.060 --> 02:00:54.979 But there's one that is a bright red wood. And 2436 02:00:55.020 --> 02:01:04.090 it's called piranha food because it grows near the edge 2437 02:01:04.130 --> 02:01:07.090 of the river and it drops flowers off the tree 2438 02:01:07.170 --> 02:01:09.670 into the river. And the piranhas love to eat those flowers. 2439 02:01:10.569 --> 02:01:12.189 So if you see a lot of those flowers in 2440 02:01:12.210 --> 02:01:15.350 the water, probably not good to swim there. But they 2441 02:01:15.390 --> 02:01:17.949 take a section of the bark, a big section. It 2442 02:01:17.989 --> 02:01:22.489 might be like four inches by four inches or six inches. 2443 02:01:23.560 --> 02:01:28.409 And it's just a hard piece, maybe eight feet long. 2444 02:01:29.069 --> 02:01:32.069 And they bring that back, and they have a special tool. 2445 02:01:32.970 --> 02:01:35.140 And it could be wood or bone, or if they 2446 02:01:35.149 --> 02:01:37.439 have a machete, they use that. And they just start 2447 02:01:37.500 --> 02:01:40.720 shaping it until finally they get a bow that's probably 2448 02:01:42.920 --> 02:01:45.840 two inches wide and an inch and a half thick. 2449 02:01:46.699 --> 02:01:50.189 And it's taller than they are. It's about seven feet long. 2450 02:01:50.930 --> 02:01:51.229 And.... 2451 02:01:52.810 --> 02:01:54.869 Then they get the bark from a tree, a certain 2452 02:01:54.909 --> 02:01:58.989 kind of tree, and they get it off in strands. 2453 02:01:59.430 --> 02:02:02.770 And so a man, a brother or a father or 2454 02:02:02.789 --> 02:02:06.260 a husband will give it to their closest woman relative, 2455 02:02:06.729 --> 02:02:09.319 and she takes those strands and she makes a bowstring. 2456 02:02:09.960 --> 02:02:13.300 So the bow represents man and woman working together. A 2457 02:02:13.340 --> 02:02:15.819 man can make the wood. A woman makes the string. 2458 02:02:16.239 --> 02:02:18.600 And they get the arrows. A man gets the feathers. 2459 02:02:18.640 --> 02:02:20.960 A man gets the shaft. The woman makes the strings 2460 02:02:21.020 --> 02:02:25.569 that tie everything on. So she's the glue. And once 2461 02:02:25.590 --> 02:02:28.550 you get that, that thing, yeah, there's one right there, 2462 02:02:29.390 --> 02:02:29.869 this guy. 2463 02:02:30.369 --> 02:02:32.949 And those are the arrows, really long arrows? 2464 02:02:32.970 --> 02:02:36.279 Yeah, yeah, those are the arrows. And these are fishing arrows, 2465 02:02:36.319 --> 02:02:39.260 so they're much longer. But actually, they're not both fishing arrows. 2466 02:02:39.340 --> 02:02:40.840 One of them is just a regular arrow. So their 2467 02:02:40.899 --> 02:02:44.659 arrows are quite long. And that thing is a very 2468 02:02:44.739 --> 02:02:46.939 powerful bow. And you can see the thickness of the 2469 02:02:47.000 --> 02:02:48.239 string there. 2470 02:02:48.260 --> 02:02:50.260 So.... 2471 02:02:52.710 --> 02:02:53.649 Yeah, and that's the bow. 2472 02:02:54.739 --> 02:02:55.760 They eat a lot of monkeys? 2473 02:02:56.319 --> 02:02:57.460 Yeah, they eat a lot of monkeys. 2474 02:02:57.479 --> 02:02:58.500 Isn't that weird? 2475 02:03:00.100 --> 02:03:04.819 No, I asked them once. I said, do monkeys look 2476 02:03:04.840 --> 02:03:08.010 like people? And they say, no, why would you ask that? 2477 02:03:08.109 --> 02:03:11.050 I said, they look like people to me. And he said, no, no, 2478 02:03:11.090 --> 02:03:14.590 they're covered in hair. You're not covered in hair. So 2479 02:03:14.649 --> 02:03:19.250 I went to the Trans-Amazon Road. I was traveling out 2480 02:03:19.369 --> 02:03:23.260 all by myself, hitchhiking, and I stayed with this Brazilian. Um, 2481 02:03:24.560 --> 02:03:26.359 and I said, do you have any cold water? He said, 2482 02:03:26.520 --> 02:03:29.970 and he had a kerosene, um, refrigerator. And so I 2483 02:03:30.010 --> 02:03:31.949 went over and I opened it to get his cold water. 2484 02:03:32.350 --> 02:03:33.890 And at the bottom, it looked like there were like 2485 02:03:33.970 --> 02:03:37.829 four dead babies. And I'm thinking, Oh my God, what 2486 02:03:37.869 --> 02:03:39.909 is that? I said, what is this? He said, Oh, 2487 02:03:39.949 --> 02:03:42.710 it's just some monkeys. I skinned him, you know, and 2488 02:03:43.649 --> 02:03:47.630 a monkey that's been skinned does look a lot more human. Um, and, uh, 2489 02:03:47.710 --> 02:03:51.800 but nobody thinks twice about it, you know? Um, I said, 2490 02:03:52.060 --> 02:03:55.079 are the monkeys more like us or are they more 2491 02:03:55.119 --> 02:03:57.649 like dogs? Oh, they're like dogs. They're much more like 2492 02:03:57.689 --> 02:03:59.930 dogs than they are like us. So they just don't 2493 02:03:59.970 --> 02:04:00.609 see the problem. 2494 02:04:01.250 --> 02:04:01.789 It's just food. 2495 02:04:02.090 --> 02:04:06.130 Yeah, it's just food. And so, you know, and they 2496 02:04:06.210 --> 02:04:09.029 love– the favorite part of any animal is the brains. 2497 02:04:09.949 --> 02:04:11.890 And one reason the brains are so good is because 2498 02:04:12.270 --> 02:04:15.640 brains have a lot of saturated fat. It's a great 2499 02:04:15.720 --> 02:04:19.100 source of saturated fat. They eat monkey brains? Yeah, they 2500 02:04:19.119 --> 02:04:19.680 eat monkey brains. 2501 02:04:19.800 --> 02:04:19.920 Okay. 2502 02:04:20.189 --> 02:04:22.720 The favorite thing, I was talking to a woman one 2503 02:04:22.779 --> 02:04:25.899 time and I was making a sandwich. I had brought 2504 02:04:25.960 --> 02:04:28.600 in some lunch meat and bread. I had just gotten there. 2505 02:04:28.619 --> 02:04:29.960 It was my first day there. And so I had 2506 02:04:30.000 --> 02:04:32.060 a little bit enough to make a sandwich for that night. 2507 02:04:32.939 --> 02:04:35.439 And I'm squirting mustard. And, you know, when you get 2508 02:04:35.479 --> 02:04:37.310 to the end of the mustard bottle and you're squeezing, 2509 02:04:37.369 --> 02:04:42.369 it makes a sound like somebody who's got diarrhea. And 2510 02:04:43.529 --> 02:04:47.369 she says, what is that bird shit stuff you're eating? 2511 02:04:47.909 --> 02:04:50.250 And I said. Well, it's good. It's mustard. Do you 2512 02:04:50.270 --> 02:04:50.829 want to try some? 2513 02:04:51.029 --> 02:04:51.649 Oh, no. 2514 02:04:52.329 --> 02:04:55.470 And she said, look at this bird shit. He's eating 2515 02:04:55.510 --> 02:04:58.909 bird shit. And then I look at her, and she's 2516 02:04:58.970 --> 02:05:02.590 eating the brains out of a rat. And he's got 2517 02:05:02.630 --> 02:05:05.829 this rat head, and she's sucking the brains out. And 2518 02:05:06.770 --> 02:05:09.970 they're cooked, of course. But she's sucking the brains out. 2519 02:05:10.909 --> 02:05:15.909 This is a great example for an introductory class in anthropology, 2520 02:05:16.050 --> 02:05:19.420 you know, how different we perceive things. That's great to her. 2521 02:05:19.479 --> 02:05:21.640 This is great to me. But it grosses the other 2522 02:05:21.720 --> 02:05:22.000 one out. 2523 02:05:22.199 --> 02:05:25.760 That's wild. Mustard is disgusting. Rat brain is great. Yeah. 2524 02:05:26.119 --> 02:05:30.779 And isn't there an issue with eating primate brain tissue? 2525 02:05:31.479 --> 02:05:32.829 Can you get prion diseases? 2526 02:05:33.010 --> 02:05:36.130 Well, there are diseases that they discovered in New Guinea 2527 02:05:36.189 --> 02:05:38.069 from cannibals who were eating human brains. 2528 02:05:38.289 --> 02:05:38.569 Right. 2529 02:05:40.300 --> 02:05:42.859 But I'm not aware of any diseases that are passed 2530 02:05:42.899 --> 02:05:46.710 by eating monkey brains or other kinds of brains. They'll 2531 02:05:46.750 --> 02:05:47.869 eat any animal's brains. 2532 02:05:49.350 --> 02:05:52.010 So the prion diseases that you get are from animals 2533 02:05:52.109 --> 02:05:55.449 eating the same animal, right? Like mad cow disease is 2534 02:05:55.510 --> 02:05:58.930 because they serve cows literal brain and neural tissue from 2535 02:05:59.130 --> 02:06:00.170 other cows. Right. 2536 02:06:00.729 --> 02:06:03.630 So I'm not an expert on that, but I do 2537 02:06:03.670 --> 02:06:05.409 know that I've never seen a case of them getting 2538 02:06:05.590 --> 02:06:08.720 disease from that. And the superficial reading that I've done 2539 02:06:08.800 --> 02:06:11.729 on it suggests that Humans get it from eating human brains. 2540 02:06:12.270 --> 02:06:17.250 Interesting. So they can eat deer brains, rat brains, no problem. Right. 2541 02:06:17.310 --> 02:06:20.069 So the favorite part of any animal is the head. 2542 02:06:20.729 --> 02:06:22.939 So if they bring me a fish, they'll give me 2543 02:06:22.979 --> 02:06:26.119 a fish. They like to trade fish for canned meat 2544 02:06:26.199 --> 02:06:30.920 because canned meat keeps. But I like fish cheeks, but 2545 02:06:31.000 --> 02:06:34.340 my wife hated the fish heads. She didn't want the 2546 02:06:34.380 --> 02:06:34.939 fish heads around. 2547 02:06:34.960 --> 02:06:35.680 Right. 2548 02:06:36.579 --> 02:06:38.149 They would be happy to keep the fish heads and 2549 02:06:38.159 --> 02:06:39.829 they just make a big stew of fish heads and 2550 02:06:39.850 --> 02:06:42.090 they eat the brains and the eyeballs and everything. Those 2551 02:06:42.130 --> 02:06:43.130 are really tasty bits. 2552 02:06:44.369 --> 02:06:45.729 And probably rich in nutrients. 2553 02:06:46.010 --> 02:06:48.090 Yeah, they are rich in nutrients. They know what they're doing. 2554 02:06:48.130 --> 02:06:49.689 They love all the internal organs. 2555 02:06:50.069 --> 02:06:52.560 Yeah, it's so weird how we've moved away from all 2556 02:06:52.600 --> 02:06:55.279 that stuff. Right. I mean, that's one of the things 2557 02:06:55.300 --> 02:06:57.539 that happens with wolves. The alpha in the pack is 2558 02:06:57.560 --> 02:06:58.520 the one that eats the liver. 2559 02:06:59.439 --> 02:07:00.039 Right. 2560 02:07:00.180 --> 02:07:02.600 They know something's going on. There's a lot of nutrients 2561 02:07:02.640 --> 02:07:05.159 in these organ meats and we've moved away from that 2562 02:07:05.199 --> 02:07:07.979 in a very strange way. People are disgusted by the 2563 02:07:08.039 --> 02:07:09.319 idea of liver. Yeah. 2564 02:07:09.720 --> 02:07:11.399 So, you know, you go to some– if you go 2565 02:07:11.439 --> 02:07:13.819 to northern Brazil and you go to one of these churrascarias, 2566 02:07:13.880 --> 02:07:15.260 Brazilian steak restaurants. 2567 02:07:16.979 --> 02:07:17.390 Love those. 2568 02:07:17.520 --> 02:07:20.289 If you're in an everyday person's, you're going to get 2569 02:07:20.329 --> 02:07:23.569 a lot of heart and you're going to get liver. 2570 02:07:23.810 --> 02:07:24.170 Kidney. 2571 02:07:24.409 --> 02:07:27.890 Kidney. You're going to get all that stuff. You know, 2572 02:07:27.970 --> 02:07:30.989 so that is stuff they love to eat. 2573 02:07:31.229 --> 02:07:36.060 Sure. A lot of cultures. Mexicans, menudo. Menudo, it's got 2574 02:07:36.140 --> 02:07:37.939 tripe in it and organ meat. 2575 02:07:38.420 --> 02:07:42.840 Right. And, you know, my brother-in-law, deceased now, but he 2576 02:07:42.880 --> 02:07:45.979 was Mexican. And that's the first thing he insisted that 2577 02:07:46.050 --> 02:07:48.670 my sister learn how to make in terms of true 2578 02:07:48.750 --> 02:07:52.609 Mexican food was menudo. And he wanted that every Saturday, 2579 02:07:52.670 --> 02:07:55.449 and she loved to make it for him. So then 2580 02:07:55.489 --> 02:07:58.359 she made this pozole with cow feet in it. 2581 02:07:58.369 --> 02:07:58.810 Whoa. 2582 02:08:00.439 --> 02:08:02.859 And, you know, got the hooves and everything in the pozole, 2583 02:08:02.880 --> 02:08:04.260 but cooks all day. 2584 02:08:04.279 --> 02:08:07.020 I remember when I was a kid, pickled pig's feet 2585 02:08:07.060 --> 02:08:07.760 was a big thing. 2586 02:08:07.840 --> 02:08:11.829 Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so internal organs are really good. 2587 02:08:12.069 --> 02:08:15.909 You know that a Brazilian churrascaria is authentic if they 2588 02:08:15.970 --> 02:08:16.810 serve chicken hearts. 2589 02:08:16.850 --> 02:08:17.090 Right. 2590 02:08:17.329 --> 02:08:19.369 You know? And so if I go to one and 2591 02:08:19.390 --> 02:08:21.510 they don't have chicken hearts, I'm quite disappointed. 2592 02:08:21.529 --> 02:08:22.390 It's westernized. 2593 02:08:22.489 --> 02:08:23.149 Yeah, yeah. 2594 02:08:23.470 --> 02:08:25.630 They're still great, but, yeah, I know what you mean. 2595 02:08:25.750 --> 02:08:25.989 Yeah. 2596 02:08:26.170 --> 02:08:28.229 Yeah, I went to one when I was in Brazil. 2597 02:08:28.329 --> 02:08:28.909 It was awesome. 2598 02:08:29.189 --> 02:08:31.680 Oh, yeah. It's Brazilian fast food. 2599 02:08:31.920 --> 02:08:34.560 Yeah, and it is fast, and it's amazing food, too. 2600 02:08:34.739 --> 02:08:36.359 It's like they know how to eat. If you're in 2601 02:08:36.380 --> 02:08:38.840 a rush, a churrascaria is the best place to eat. Yeah. 2602 02:08:38.859 --> 02:08:41.260 Because you sit down, you flip that cart over to green, 2603 02:08:41.300 --> 02:08:43.640 the food keeps coming. Twenty minutes later, you're stuffed. Exactly. 2604 02:08:43.680 --> 02:08:47.680 Exactly. Exactly. And you ate much more nutrition than having 2605 02:08:47.739 --> 02:08:49.720 a McDonald's Big Mac or something like that. Sure. 2606 02:08:49.819 --> 02:08:52.399 And it's all you can eat. Yeah. Yeah. It's awesome. 2607 02:08:52.819 --> 02:08:55.390 I used to come out of the village and go 2608 02:08:55.430 --> 02:08:56.609 straight to one of those. I've been out of the 2609 02:08:56.630 --> 02:08:58.989 village for six months and I was really hungry and 2610 02:08:59.010 --> 02:09:01.510 I was coming out on my motorcycle. And the first 2611 02:09:01.569 --> 02:09:03.609 one I saw, I pulled over and I ate until 2612 02:09:03.649 --> 02:09:04.329 I could barely move. 2613 02:09:04.590 --> 02:09:07.479 Did you eat monkey when you were in the jungle? Yeah. Yeah. 2614 02:09:07.760 --> 02:09:09.659 I didn't eat the brains, but they didn't offer them 2615 02:09:09.699 --> 02:09:11.899 either because that's the best part. 2616 02:09:12.560 --> 02:09:14.119 Would you have if they offered you some? 2617 02:09:14.510 --> 02:09:16.250 Yeah, I would have. I would have. I've tried a 2618 02:09:16.270 --> 02:09:18.949 lot of stuff there. And when I was doing my 2619 02:09:18.989 --> 02:09:22.310 field experience in southern Mexico in Chiapas, I spent some 2620 02:09:22.350 --> 02:09:27.300 time with the Celtales, the Celta people, descendants of the Mayas. And, 2621 02:09:28.100 --> 02:09:30.979 you know, I ate this stuff they chew up and 2622 02:09:31.039 --> 02:09:32.420 spit out and let ferment. 2623 02:09:32.720 --> 02:09:36.260 Oh, I've heard of that. That's a beverage. Is that 2624 02:09:36.359 --> 02:09:37.619 like an alcoholic beverage? 2625 02:09:37.680 --> 02:09:39.359 Yeah. And so I was trying to fit in. And 2626 02:09:39.380 --> 02:09:43.050 so they gave me just a little bit. And they said, 2627 02:09:43.069 --> 02:09:45.609 what did you think? And I'm trying to be this 2628 02:09:46.149 --> 02:09:48.229 cool guy. And I said, I loved it. I hated it. 2629 02:09:48.590 --> 02:09:50.489 But I said I loved it. And so they bring 2630 02:09:50.510 --> 02:09:51.069 me a big bowl. 2631 02:09:52.369 --> 02:09:54.470 And so then– Drinking people's spit. 2632 02:09:55.010 --> 02:09:59.800 That night I was up with things coming out of 2633 02:09:59.840 --> 02:10:03.479 both ends all night long. And the next morning my 2634 02:10:03.520 --> 02:10:05.739 blood pressure was 60 over 40 and I had to 2635 02:10:05.779 --> 02:10:08.539 be flown out. They had to get me on a 2636 02:10:08.600 --> 02:10:11.020 mule and get me out to the nearest airstrip and 2637 02:10:11.119 --> 02:10:14.840 out and– But I did my bit. I was accepted 2638 02:10:14.920 --> 02:10:17.680 as a great gringo for eating this stuff, you know, 2639 02:10:17.720 --> 02:10:24.149 for drinking it. What happened to you? Well, whatever it was, 2640 02:10:24.329 --> 02:10:25.260 my body didn't like it. 2641 02:10:26.010 --> 02:10:28.810 So is it just like the bacteria in it, you think? 2642 02:10:29.350 --> 02:10:31.489 Probably. I think it had to be that because it 2643 02:10:31.529 --> 02:10:33.420 didn't gross me out. I didn't like the taste of it, 2644 02:10:33.449 --> 02:10:35.350 but it wasn't grossing me out. And it was a 2645 02:10:35.369 --> 02:10:37.930 happy time. We had little ribbons and stuff. We were 2646 02:10:37.970 --> 02:10:40.130 having a festa and I was sitting with the men 2647 02:10:40.189 --> 02:10:41.149 at the table. 2648 02:10:40.869 --> 02:10:43.520 And And their gut bacteria just knows how to handle it. 2649 02:10:44.119 --> 02:10:47.140 There you go. There you go. 2650 02:10:47.899 --> 02:10:53.239 It says that the human saliva creates the fermentation. 2651 02:10:53.260 --> 02:10:54.079 Yeah, that's right. 2652 02:10:54.340 --> 02:10:57.659 Come on, people. Isn't there a better way to get drunk? 2653 02:10:58.140 --> 02:10:59.020 Good Lord. 2654 02:10:59.159 --> 02:11:01.819 If you want to get drunk and you want it 2655 02:11:01.859 --> 02:11:03.340 bad enough, there it is. 2656 02:11:03.500 --> 02:11:05.300 And I bet that stuff you're not going to drink 2657 02:11:05.359 --> 02:11:08.300 every day because it's so disgusting. It's not going to 2658 02:11:08.319 --> 02:11:09.060 become a problem. 2659 02:11:09.279 --> 02:11:12.739 Once it's fermented, Nobody really cares, you know, who's around 2660 02:11:12.770 --> 02:11:13.319 that culture. 2661 02:11:13.470 --> 02:11:13.850 Boy. 2662 02:11:14.090 --> 02:11:14.739 You know, but. 2663 02:11:16.029 --> 02:11:17.050 What does a monkey taste like? 2664 02:11:18.229 --> 02:11:21.369 Well, there again, I don't have a vocabulary to describe 2665 02:11:21.390 --> 02:11:25.029 all these meats. It's a tough meat, but I pressure it. 2666 02:11:25.609 --> 02:11:26.210 I put the. 2667 02:11:26.229 --> 02:11:27.970 A crock pot? Yeah. 2668 02:11:28.050 --> 02:11:29.630 I put it in a pressure cooker over a fire. 2669 02:11:29.689 --> 02:11:31.729 I take in a pressure cooker, you know, not an 2670 02:11:31.789 --> 02:11:34.130 electric pressure cooker, obviously. One of these pressure cookers you 2671 02:11:34.149 --> 02:11:36.189 can sit on top of the fire. And after I 2672 02:11:36.229 --> 02:11:39.090 pressure it, it's falling off the bone and I take 2673 02:11:39.130 --> 02:11:40.909 the meat off. And I throw it in a bowl 2674 02:11:40.970 --> 02:11:42.989 and I put some manioc meal on top of that. 2675 02:11:43.399 --> 02:11:46.060 And then I cover it in Tabasco. And it's great. 2676 02:11:46.439 --> 02:11:48.020 It's very filling and it tastes really good. 2677 02:11:48.340 --> 02:11:50.739 Wow. Did you feel weird eating a monkey? 2678 02:11:52.800 --> 02:11:55.579 When you see the monkey and you put the little 2679 02:11:55.600 --> 02:11:58.479 monkey body inside the pressure cooker and it looks like 2680 02:11:58.520 --> 02:12:01.220 a baby, it doesn't look too good. But once you 2681 02:12:01.399 --> 02:12:03.279 open up the pressure cooker and it's all cooked and 2682 02:12:03.300 --> 02:12:05.340 the bones are separated from the meat and then it's 2683 02:12:05.399 --> 02:12:09.039 just meat floating in there. And when you're out in 2684 02:12:09.079 --> 02:12:11.909 the jungle and you've been out there long enough, just 2685 02:12:11.949 --> 02:12:15.010 about any kind of meat sounds pretty good. I worked 2686 02:12:15.050 --> 02:12:18.789 with a group called the Wadi. I actually wrote a 2687 02:12:18.810 --> 02:12:22.869 540-page grammar of their language, co-wrote it. And they were 2688 02:12:22.909 --> 02:12:28.199 cannibals up until 1962. And they had two– they had 2689 02:12:28.380 --> 02:12:35.319 endocannibalism and exocannibalism. Exocannibalism was eating their enemies and endocannibalism 2690 02:12:35.359 --> 02:12:38.609 was eating their people. And so if you die in 2691 02:12:38.630 --> 02:12:43.680 the village at that time, up until 1962, they keep 2692 02:12:43.699 --> 02:12:46.199 your body. They call all the relatives. Your body might 2693 02:12:46.239 --> 02:12:49.300 sit there in the Amazon sun for three days. And 2694 02:12:49.340 --> 02:12:53.000 your relatives come from all over. And then they cook 2695 02:12:53.020 --> 02:12:57.739 you over a grill. And slowly they roast the body. 2696 02:12:58.270 --> 02:13:00.930 And then they cut it into chunks and they eat 2697 02:13:00.949 --> 02:13:04.619 them with, like, little toothpicks. And– They eat it until 2698 02:13:04.659 --> 02:13:07.220 everything is gone. They eat the bones. They eat the brains. 2699 02:13:07.260 --> 02:13:08.100 They eat everything. 2700 02:13:08.119 --> 02:13:09.539 They eat human brains. Yeah. 2701 02:13:09.920 --> 02:13:13.039 And the purpose, as best I've been able to figure out, 2702 02:13:13.539 --> 02:13:15.819 anthropologists have tried to answer this, so my answer might 2703 02:13:15.840 --> 02:13:18.260 not be theirs, but it's based on interviews with the people, 2704 02:13:19.039 --> 02:13:23.180 is to give your relatives eternal life because they live 2705 02:13:23.199 --> 02:13:24.939 in you and you're going to live in somebody else, 2706 02:13:24.979 --> 02:13:29.359 so you just continue living. But exocannibalism, I kill a 2707 02:13:29.399 --> 02:13:31.609 guy in warfare. I'm going to eat him like an animal. 2708 02:13:31.649 --> 02:13:33.569 I just chop him up and grill him and eat 2709 02:13:33.609 --> 02:13:35.189 it and throw the bones off into the forest. 2710 02:13:35.439 --> 02:13:35.960 Boy. 2711 02:13:35.979 --> 02:13:36.920 So that's totally different. 2712 02:13:37.560 --> 02:13:39.579 Some Native Americans practice that. 2713 02:13:40.020 --> 02:13:41.180 Yeah. 2714 02:13:43.199 --> 02:13:45.899 It's been said. Eating the brain though, wouldn't that– what 2715 02:13:45.920 --> 02:13:48.939 is that disease? What is this called? Jakob Kretzfeld? Is 2716 02:13:48.960 --> 02:13:49.500 that what it's called? 2717 02:13:49.699 --> 02:13:51.579 Yeah, something like that. I should know that. 2718 02:13:52.000 --> 02:13:53.760 But it's mad cow disease essentially. 2719 02:13:53.840 --> 02:13:58.029 It's like that, yeah. So– but they don't eat people 2720 02:13:58.069 --> 02:14:01.829 all the time. They eat dead relatives. And if anybody's 2721 02:14:01.850 --> 02:14:04.130 ever gotten that disease, it's never been registered. 2722 02:14:04.329 --> 02:14:08.270 That's crazy. But I mean, even if you're eating dead relatives, 2723 02:14:08.289 --> 02:14:10.529 you eat a dead relative, I would imagine you can 2724 02:14:10.550 --> 02:14:11.550 get prion disease. 2725 02:14:12.189 --> 02:14:15.529 Yeah, but it depends on how many die. There's a 2726 02:14:15.550 --> 02:14:17.630 whole etiquette about it. You're never allowed to say that 2727 02:14:17.930 --> 02:14:19.810 it just tastes really good. You know, for example, you 2728 02:14:19.829 --> 02:14:20.310 can't say that. 2729 02:14:20.329 --> 02:14:21.630 You can't say delicious. 2730 02:14:21.710 --> 02:14:22.770 Yeah, you can't say that. 2731 02:14:22.810 --> 02:14:23.439 Uncle Tom is yummy. 2732 02:14:23.520 --> 02:14:25.779 And I've talked to some of the older men who 2733 02:14:25.819 --> 02:14:29.239 have eaten their dead and they say, well, the The 2734 02:14:29.279 --> 02:14:32.029 babies taste really good, but you can't say that. 2735 02:14:33.289 --> 02:14:35.930 The babies taste really good. It's rough. 2736 02:14:36.750 --> 02:14:42.270 It's like human veal. But the Brazilian government put a 2737 02:14:42.569 --> 02:14:44.319 stop to that in 62. 2738 02:14:44.319 --> 02:14:47.619 Good move. Why do they let it sit for three 2739 02:14:47.640 --> 02:14:48.359 days before. 2740 02:14:48.159 --> 02:14:49.560 They cook it? Because it takes that long for the 2741 02:14:49.579 --> 02:14:52.100 relatives to come because they might be in other villages. 2742 02:14:52.119 --> 02:14:53.859 So they've got to send runners out to bring. 2743 02:14:53.720 --> 02:14:55.930 The whole family together. Doesn't the meat start rotting? Yeah. 2744 02:14:56.149 --> 02:14:58.000 It starts to smell pretty bad. And there are a 2745 02:14:58.000 --> 02:15:00.680 lot of stories about people puking after every bite. 2746 02:15:02.800 --> 02:15:06.020 These are people that can drink that puke beer. Yeah, yeah. Oh, 2747 02:15:06.060 --> 02:15:06.779 my God. 2748 02:15:07.079 --> 02:15:14.300 Yeah. So you realize cultural differences aren't that superficial. 2749 02:15:14.399 --> 02:15:17.699 What's also probably meat is probably extremely valuable to them. 2750 02:15:18.159 --> 02:15:20.220 And they just probably think, look, there's no reason for 2751 02:15:20.260 --> 02:15:22.000 this to go to waste when it can sustain us. 2752 02:15:22.340 --> 02:15:24.680 It would be very interesting to go back in time 2753 02:15:24.739 --> 02:15:28.250 and see how the customs started. They could have started 2754 02:15:28.310 --> 02:15:30.289 out of hunger and then you dress it up with 2755 02:15:30.329 --> 02:15:34.390 some religious beliefs. Or the religious beliefs could have come 2756 02:15:34.430 --> 02:15:37.930 first and you started doing it. But they do have 2757 02:15:38.029 --> 02:15:42.420 oral histories about it. But the oral histories never say 2758 02:15:42.500 --> 02:15:45.180 we were short of meat so we ate Joe. We 2759 02:15:45.220 --> 02:15:50.539 ate our buddy. But they do say we want to 2760 02:15:51.140 --> 02:15:52.859 help them live in us and we will live in 2761 02:15:52.899 --> 02:15:55.159 somebody else. So that's the explanation you get. 2762 02:15:55.500 --> 02:15:56.020 Wow. 2763 02:15:56.300 --> 02:15:56.920 Or that I got. 2764 02:15:57.640 --> 02:16:01.300 Wow. Well, when you got there a few years after. 2765 02:16:02.420 --> 02:16:05.239 Yeah, I didn't start working with them until 1985. Okay. 2766 02:16:06.420 --> 02:16:07.619 So it was 20 something years. 2767 02:16:07.640 --> 02:16:09.420 But they still had stories about. Oh, yeah. 2768 02:16:09.460 --> 02:16:11.000 They still had a lot of stories about it. And, 2769 02:16:11.640 --> 02:16:14.439 you know, anybody over 30 had had done it. 2770 02:16:15.060 --> 02:16:17.720 Is there any kind of cannibalism that goes on in 2771 02:16:17.739 --> 02:16:18.600 the Amazon still? 2772 02:16:19.779 --> 02:16:22.939 Probably, but none that I know of. But there are 2773 02:16:22.970 --> 02:16:26.340 still some uncontacted tribes. And there are still tribes that 2774 02:16:26.380 --> 02:16:28.939 behave one way when foreigners are around and another way 2775 02:16:28.970 --> 02:16:33.409 when they're not. I have a friend. She died last year, 2776 02:16:33.430 --> 02:16:37.649 but she was a missionary among those people from the 50s. 2777 02:16:38.469 --> 02:16:42.549 So she remembers the cannibalism. And she told me, although 2778 02:16:42.629 --> 02:16:45.159 some anthropologists deny this, but I think she knows them 2779 02:16:45.170 --> 02:16:48.639 better than any anthropologist who's ever been there, that she said, 2780 02:16:48.700 --> 02:16:50.639 I think when nobody's around, they still do that. 2781 02:16:52.379 --> 02:16:54.450 Yeah. I bet they do too. 2782 02:16:54.709 --> 02:16:55.409 They don't have warfare. 2783 02:16:55.450 --> 02:16:57.629 They listen to someone else. They don't have warfare. 2784 02:16:57.850 --> 02:17:00.770 Not anymore. They did. But that's been stopped and they 2785 02:17:00.809 --> 02:17:04.079 have– they're isolated from other groups that they used to 2786 02:17:04.110 --> 02:17:07.520 be enemies with. But there are still some who believe 2787 02:17:07.559 --> 02:17:12.120 the old-time religion and the old-time religion says eat your dead. 2788 02:17:14.260 --> 02:17:18.139 So it's quite possible that it happens. But what you 2789 02:17:18.200 --> 02:17:22.329 find is that since the 80s– Most of the groups 2790 02:17:22.370 --> 02:17:25.959 that have regular contact with the outside have undergone a 2791 02:17:26.059 --> 02:17:34.700 very rapid process of enculturation into Brazilian society. So even 2792 02:17:34.739 --> 02:17:37.819 among the Pita Hasnauth in the decades since I was 2793 02:17:37.860 --> 02:17:41.690 there regularly, I see pictures of them because my ex-wife 2794 02:17:41.750 --> 02:17:42.989 still lives right next to them. 2795 02:17:43.469 --> 02:17:43.870 Oh, wow. 2796 02:17:44.030 --> 02:17:47.129 And she sends me short videos and pictures of them 2797 02:17:47.149 --> 02:17:49.909 when they come up to her little wooden shack on 2798 02:17:49.889 --> 02:17:53.739 … the Trans-Amazon Highway by their river. And they're dressing 2799 02:17:53.780 --> 02:17:57.879 very differently now. And some of them are speaking some Portuguese. 2800 02:17:58.000 --> 02:18:00.059 Not very well, but they're speaking some Portuguese. 2801 02:18:00.079 --> 02:18:02.059 And your ex-wife is still a missionary? 2802 02:18:02.260 --> 02:18:07.239 Yeah, she's still trying to convert them. No conversions. They're 2803 02:18:07.260 --> 02:18:07.959 not going to convert. 2804 02:18:08.000 --> 02:18:12.299 Boy, you've got to give it up to her for having, like, stick-to-itiveness. 2805 02:18:13.049 --> 02:18:15.280 I mean, that's really determined. 2806 02:18:15.729 --> 02:18:20.329 She is absolutely a New Testament first century Christian in 2807 02:18:20.389 --> 02:18:21.190 terms of her faith. 2808 02:18:21.430 --> 02:18:22.170 Wow. 2809 02:18:22.190 --> 02:18:24.690 And she doesn't deviate, and she's not afraid of anything. 2810 02:18:25.309 --> 02:18:29.469 I mean, we've been in many life-threatening situations, and I 2811 02:18:29.510 --> 02:18:32.530 don't tend to get afraid, and she definitely is not afraid, 2812 02:18:32.610 --> 02:18:33.110 not ever. 2813 02:18:33.739 --> 02:18:35.979 So is that because of her belief that she believes 2814 02:18:36.020 --> 02:18:38.069 that God is looking out for her and if she dies, 2815 02:18:38.100 --> 02:18:39.309 she's going to go to heaven anyway? 2816 02:18:39.549 --> 02:18:46.590 Yeah. A common refrain among Christian missionaries is, I'm immortal 2817 02:18:47.010 --> 02:18:50.850 until my task is done. God will protect me until 2818 02:18:50.870 --> 02:18:52.450 he's done with me. And so if he's not done 2819 02:18:52.469 --> 02:18:53.750 with me, I don't have to worry about it. And 2820 02:18:53.809 --> 02:18:54.809 if he is, great. 2821 02:18:55.590 --> 02:18:58.620 Wow. There's a lot of power in that too. I mean, 2822 02:18:58.639 --> 02:19:01.159 how many people just live in this constant state of 2823 02:19:01.420 --> 02:19:03.159 existential angst? Yeah. 2824 02:19:03.620 --> 02:19:04.879 That's something she's never had. 2825 02:19:05.159 --> 02:19:05.639 Wow. 2826 02:19:05.700 --> 02:19:06.799 She doesn't have that. 2827 02:19:06.819 --> 02:19:08.000 There's a lot of value to that. 2828 02:19:08.170 --> 02:19:10.549 It's what attracted me to her so much besides the 2829 02:19:10.569 --> 02:19:13.729 fact that she was really cute. That attracted me to 2830 02:19:13.770 --> 02:19:14.940 her a lot when we first met. 2831 02:19:14.950 --> 02:19:17.149 Were you bummed out when she wanted a divorce because 2832 02:19:17.170 --> 02:19:18.049 you lost your faith? 2833 02:19:18.870 --> 02:19:21.430 Well, by that time, we weren't getting along that well 2834 02:19:21.479 --> 02:19:26.500 because she's very anti... She's not anti-science per se, but 2835 02:19:26.559 --> 02:19:32.360 she's anti- helicopter science. She feels that too many people 2836 02:19:32.399 --> 02:19:36.030 who do studies of indigenous groups and languages, come in 2837 02:19:36.090 --> 02:19:38.590 for a short time, go out and just speak a 2838 02:19:38.610 --> 02:19:41.190 lot of bullshit that nobody's ever going to test. And 2839 02:19:41.239 --> 02:19:43.340 so she hates that. And she's seen it happen with 2840 02:19:43.360 --> 02:19:46.479 the Piraha. I've seen it happen with the Piraha. I've 2841 02:19:46.500 --> 02:19:48.500 seen a couple of anthropologists and linguists go in and 2842 02:19:48.540 --> 02:19:51.399 do doctoral dissertations on them that are like totally ridiculous. 2843 02:19:51.940 --> 02:19:56.020 But if I say something, I'm a gringo. And I'm 2844 02:19:56.079 --> 02:19:57.879 jealous because it disagrees with me. 2845 02:19:58.479 --> 02:20:00.760 Do you think that they do that because no one 2846 02:20:00.799 --> 02:20:02.700 is going to check and so they just say, I 2847 02:20:02.920 --> 02:20:04.739 want to just write whatever I want to write? 2848 02:20:05.200 --> 02:20:10.059 That does happen. That definitely happens. It's also because people 2849 02:20:10.120 --> 02:20:12.600 realize– it sounds really good to go study an indigenous 2850 02:20:12.639 --> 02:20:14.860 culture or an indigenous language. When you get there and 2851 02:20:14.879 --> 02:20:17.899 you find out this is so damn hard. I had 2852 02:20:17.979 --> 02:20:21.020 no– I have no words to put in how hard 2853 02:20:21.059 --> 02:20:21.559 this is. 2854 02:20:21.620 --> 02:20:22.340 So they bullshit. 2855 02:20:22.479 --> 02:20:26.579 Yeah, because you want to say to a Piraha, what 2856 02:20:26.649 --> 02:20:29.409 is this? And so how do you ask that? Well, 2857 02:20:30.270 --> 02:20:33.750 the phrase in Pirahas, he go, but where do you 2858 02:20:33.770 --> 02:20:36.670 get that phrase? You can't ask somebody how to ask, 2859 02:20:36.889 --> 02:20:37.489 what is this? 2860 02:20:37.829 --> 02:20:38.069 Right. 2861 02:20:38.250 --> 02:20:40.670 If you don't know the language. So you have to 2862 02:20:40.750 --> 02:20:43.719 watch them very carefully and somebody might get something new 2863 02:20:44.219 --> 02:20:46.260 or you might even give them something new that they've 2864 02:20:46.299 --> 02:20:48.760 never seen, hoping somebody is going to ask them, what 2865 02:20:48.840 --> 02:20:50.719 is this? So you can write it down and then 2866 02:20:50.760 --> 02:20:52.069 test it. And that's how I got it. 2867 02:20:52.600 --> 02:20:56.250 And so now you're fluent in Pirahas. Yes. So you 2868 02:20:56.280 --> 02:20:58.590 can go and have a conversation with them so you 2869 02:20:58.610 --> 02:21:02.430 can explore some of these more nuanced subjects and do 2870 02:21:02.469 --> 02:21:03.549 it in their language. 2871 02:21:03.750 --> 02:21:03.969 Yes. 2872 02:21:04.409 --> 02:21:06.450 So you can kind of translate things in a way 2873 02:21:06.469 --> 02:21:08.790 that they're going to understand what you're saying. Yes. 2874 02:21:09.229 --> 02:21:11.549 And that's what takes the most practice. So when I 2875 02:21:11.610 --> 02:21:15.690 first translated the Gospel of Mark into Pitaha, I thought 2876 02:21:15.709 --> 02:21:18.409 I had done a marvelous job. And I would read 2877 02:21:18.469 --> 02:21:20.510 bits out to the Pitaha, and they could explain it 2878 02:21:20.569 --> 02:21:22.540 to me, and it seemed like they were understanding it. 2879 02:21:23.920 --> 02:21:27.450 But I used... a grammar that was largely based on English. 2880 02:21:27.469 --> 02:21:29.819 So when I read to them large sections, they were 2881 02:21:29.850 --> 02:21:32.540 totally lost. They couldn't understand it at all. And what 2882 02:21:32.579 --> 02:21:35.159 does that mean? It means I got it wrong. It 2883 02:21:35.219 --> 02:21:37.780 means that I haven't figured out the language as well 2884 02:21:37.819 --> 02:21:40.239 as I thought I did. And that's very humbling when 2885 02:21:40.260 --> 02:21:42.860 you've spent so many years trying to do it. So 2886 02:21:42.899 --> 02:21:46.159 I had to start from the ground up again. And 2887 02:21:46.180 --> 02:21:48.729 these are all, you know, before you can learn a language, 2888 02:21:48.750 --> 02:21:51.690 you have to murder it. And before you can carry 2889 02:21:51.729 --> 02:21:54.770 on a conversation, you just feel like an idiot for years. 2890 02:21:56.129 --> 02:21:59.829 And for one thing, people who go in to do 2891 02:21:59.879 --> 02:22:02.420 a PhD dissertation on a language like this are going 2892 02:22:02.440 --> 02:22:04.840 to take one to two years of their life, and 2893 02:22:04.899 --> 02:22:08.440 that's it. And that's not enough time. It takes a 2894 02:22:08.500 --> 02:22:10.120 year to get fluent in the language. And I know 2895 02:22:10.159 --> 02:22:13.790 many people who've written about many different Amazonian languages who 2896 02:22:13.829 --> 02:22:16.129 can't speak a word of the language or speak very 2897 02:22:16.190 --> 02:22:18.770 little of it. They'll tell people they speak it, but 2898 02:22:18.969 --> 02:22:21.670 you go with them and you realize they don't speak 2899 02:22:21.690 --> 02:22:23.850 it that well. So if you don't speak it that well, 2900 02:22:23.889 --> 02:22:27.610 how can you ask them to distinguish subtle meaning differences? 2901 02:22:28.110 --> 02:22:33.809 You can't. And that means that a lot of this 2902 02:22:33.870 --> 02:22:37.379 kind of field work, which is so vital, is not 2903 02:22:37.420 --> 02:22:39.360 as reliable as we would like to think it is. 2904 02:22:40.120 --> 02:22:44.739 That's unfortunate. Yeah. Especially if a young student is coming 2905 02:22:44.780 --> 02:22:47.840 along and they're interested in pursuing it further and they're 2906 02:22:47.920 --> 02:22:50.659 starting off with some faulty assumptions. Yeah. 2907 02:22:51.239 --> 02:22:54.819 Yes, and the other problem is people learn a theory 2908 02:22:55.360 --> 02:22:59.629 in graduate school, and they take it as their job 2909 02:22:59.670 --> 02:23:02.870 of their dissertation, and this isn't limited to just linguistics 2910 02:23:02.909 --> 02:23:04.750 and anthropology, but they take it as the job of 2911 02:23:04.790 --> 02:23:10.329 their dissertation to support that theory. So, you know, it's 2912 02:23:10.350 --> 02:23:12.569 like Paul Simon says, a man sees what he wants 2913 02:23:12.610 --> 02:23:16.610 to hear and disregards the rest. When you're trying to 2914 02:23:16.649 --> 02:23:21.829 do theoretical research, field research, shouldn't be that theoretically motivated. 2915 02:23:21.870 --> 02:23:24.639 It should be basically descriptive. And then you can do 2916 02:23:24.659 --> 02:23:27.149 the theory later. But most people bring the theory into it. 2917 02:23:27.959 --> 02:23:34.260 And you can't totally divorce those two. But you see 2918 02:23:34.299 --> 02:23:36.760 a fact. So, for example, I've worked with Pinaha, and 2919 02:23:36.799 --> 02:23:39.729 I'm asking for a certain kind of data. And they 2920 02:23:39.760 --> 02:23:43.569 don't give me what I wanted. And I thought, this 2921 02:23:44.110 --> 02:23:45.829 guy's not giving me what I want. What's wrong with him? 2922 02:23:45.870 --> 02:23:49.229 What am I saying wrong? Is he stupid? And then 2923 02:23:49.709 --> 02:23:52.090 as I learned to speak the language better, I realized, oh, 2924 02:23:52.149 --> 02:23:54.469 he's giving me exactly what I needed and I was 2925 02:23:54.510 --> 02:23:58.030 too stupid to know it. And so that's hard. You're 2926 02:23:58.049 --> 02:24:00.850 the one working for the PhD. He's just a hunter-gatherer. 2927 02:24:00.870 --> 02:24:02.969 And it turns out he's at least as smart as 2928 02:24:02.989 --> 02:24:04.879 you are and often he's able to know what you 2929 02:24:04.920 --> 02:24:08.059 need better than you do. And that's another part of 2930 02:24:08.100 --> 02:24:12.020 the humbling experience of doing field research. Wow. 2931 02:24:12.360 --> 02:24:15.659 The amount of commitment that's involved in going as deep 2932 02:24:15.719 --> 02:24:17.700 as you went with this is really crazy. 2933 02:24:18.840 --> 02:24:21.379 Yeah, I give demonstrations and you can find some on 2934 02:24:21.399 --> 02:24:23.809 the internet where I take a language that I know 2935 02:24:23.840 --> 02:24:26.889 nothing about and I switch to Pinaha, which I know 2936 02:24:26.930 --> 02:24:29.750 they know nothing about. And within 20 or 30 minutes, 2937 02:24:30.149 --> 02:24:33.489 I'm able to explain to the audience some basic facts 2938 02:24:33.549 --> 02:24:35.930 about how their grammar works and what their basic vocabulary, 2939 02:24:35.950 --> 02:24:37.850 you know, a lot of basic vocabulary. And I do 2940 02:24:37.889 --> 02:24:39.760 this to linguists. I've done it in front of as 2941 02:24:39.799 --> 02:24:45.360 many as 500 linguists at a time. And then I 2942 02:24:45.420 --> 02:24:47.579 tell them that a lot of people think this is magic. 2943 02:24:47.620 --> 02:24:50.250 This is really cool. I said, What you're seeing here 2944 02:24:50.309 --> 02:24:52.590 is me working for about an hour. Now, you just 2945 02:24:52.629 --> 02:24:55.510 do that every day for two years and you're in. 2946 02:24:56.809 --> 02:25:00.170 And that's the part. It's intensive. I get a headache 2947 02:25:00.510 --> 02:25:03.739 when I do these demonstrations because my concentration is so hard. 2948 02:25:04.329 --> 02:25:09.120 And you miss obvious things and you say bad things 2949 02:25:09.280 --> 02:25:13.860 and you're just self-correcting all the time. You're just constantly, 2950 02:25:13.879 --> 02:25:15.639 you start off this wide and you're trying to get 2951 02:25:15.680 --> 02:25:18.299 this narrow, get down to this point of what it 2952 02:25:18.360 --> 02:25:20.969 actually means, what this And as you work through that, 2953 02:25:21.010 --> 02:25:24.729 there are no shortcuts. There's no shortcut to doing that. 2954 02:25:25.229 --> 02:25:27.520 And you need to be well-trained and you need to 2955 02:25:27.579 --> 02:25:29.590 be very committed and you need to have a little 2956 02:25:29.610 --> 02:25:33.799 bit of talent and work really hard. And when people 2957 02:25:33.840 --> 02:25:36.940 see how easy it looks and then they try it, 2958 02:25:36.959 --> 02:25:40.739 they realize they're seeing me at 20 years down the 2959 02:25:40.780 --> 02:25:45.760 road from when I started. But yeah, there are methods 2960 02:25:45.860 --> 02:25:48.200 to use to learn a language where there's no language 2961 02:25:48.260 --> 02:25:48.639 in common. 2962 02:25:48.940 --> 02:25:54.600 But it's got to be very difficult to achieve a 2963 02:25:54.909 --> 02:25:58.090 fluent understanding of their language and the way you did 2964 02:25:58.149 --> 02:26:01.450 it from the ground literally from starting from what is 2965 02:26:01.510 --> 02:26:04.649 this how do you say that and then remembering it 2966 02:26:04.729 --> 02:26:07.049 piecing it together and then you have to write it 2967 02:26:07.129 --> 02:26:10.260 down then you're writing it down right oh my goodness 2968 02:26:10.840 --> 02:26:13.219 and then like imagine if a guy like you didn't 2969 02:26:13.280 --> 02:26:15.500 do that like how many people are willing to do 2970 02:26:15.559 --> 02:26:20.540 that especially how many people that are you're a linguist. 2971 02:26:20.579 --> 02:26:25.040 You want to be a working intellectual. You don't necessarily 2972 02:26:25.079 --> 02:26:27.549 want to get malaria. You don't want to get eaten 2973 02:26:27.579 --> 02:26:29.649 by a jaguar. You don't want to live in the jungle. 2974 02:26:30.989 --> 02:26:32.909 So there are people who would like to spend that 2975 02:26:32.950 --> 02:26:38.190 much time, but they don't have the funding. So the 2976 02:26:38.290 --> 02:26:42.190 National Science Foundation and the Brazilian National Science Foundation and 2977 02:26:42.239 --> 02:26:45.780 the British equivalent of the National Science Foundation have all 2978 02:26:45.840 --> 02:26:49.319 funded my research over the years. But The bulk of 2979 02:26:49.360 --> 02:26:52.780 my research was funded by being a missionary. And so 2980 02:26:52.860 --> 02:26:55.309 I had all these years because churches were supporting me. 2981 02:26:55.829 --> 02:26:56.370 But today. 2982 02:26:56.389 --> 02:26:58.649 But did they ever ask, how come you haven't converted 2983 02:26:58.690 --> 02:26:59.190 anybody yet? 2984 02:26:59.809 --> 02:27:02.069 Well, they ask me that all the time. I've had people... 2985 02:27:02.190 --> 02:27:05.030 I showed slides of the Pidaha to a church here 2986 02:27:05.069 --> 02:27:10.399 in Texas, in Dallas. And the people started getting up 2987 02:27:10.459 --> 02:27:13.139 and leaving. And I thought they were interested. They gave 2988 02:27:13.200 --> 02:27:15.579 me money to work in these people. And I said, 2989 02:27:15.600 --> 02:27:18.159 what's the problem? And they said... You're no good at all. 2990 02:27:18.659 --> 02:27:20.420 And I said, well, what are you seeing that you 2991 02:27:20.459 --> 02:27:23.540 don't like? They said, these people are naked. And if 2992 02:27:23.579 --> 02:27:25.899 you're a Christian missionary, why haven't you taught them to 2993 02:27:25.920 --> 02:27:29.059 wear clothes? And I said, well, they don't want to 2994 02:27:29.100 --> 02:27:31.469 wear clothes. I said, what in the Bible says you 2995 02:27:31.489 --> 02:27:35.350 have to wear clothes? They said, Adam saw Eve's nakedness 2996 02:27:35.430 --> 02:27:39.010 and they were ashamed of each other. You must wear clothes. 2997 02:27:39.190 --> 02:27:41.600 You're not even teaching. them the basics of Christianity. And 2998 02:27:41.639 --> 02:27:44.260 I thought, you know, I guess I'm not. You know, 2999 02:27:44.319 --> 02:27:46.379 I didn't realize that's not part of the basics of 3000 02:27:46.399 --> 02:27:51.000 Christianity for me. But... How do you tell a guy 3001 02:27:51.049 --> 02:27:53.549 who wears a loincloth that it's three inches too short? 3002 02:27:58.270 --> 02:28:00.729 Something's peeking out there. So it's not– they don't wear 3003 02:28:00.770 --> 02:28:04.170 it for modesty. They wear it to keep from sticks 3004 02:28:04.209 --> 02:28:08.430 getting poked in your penis. And so modesty has nothing 3005 02:28:08.469 --> 02:28:12.430 to do with it. Why would you– to the average pitaha, 3006 02:28:12.590 --> 02:28:15.129 a woman's breast is about as erotic as an elbow. 3007 02:28:17.010 --> 02:28:19.610 You see a woman. She's nursing her baby. And then 3008 02:28:19.649 --> 02:28:22.030 the baby stops nursing and she's still talking to you 3009 02:28:22.110 --> 02:28:24.799 and her tits hanging out. And it doesn't mean anything 3010 02:28:24.840 --> 02:28:26.379 to her. And after a while, it doesn't mean anything 3011 02:28:26.399 --> 02:28:28.639 to you either. You know, what's the big deal? And 3012 02:28:28.700 --> 02:28:31.500 so to get across the idea that it may be 3013 02:28:31.579 --> 02:28:35.399 clothes that's causing this problem instead of going naked, which 3014 02:28:35.440 --> 02:28:40.170 then eliminates the problem of lust. I mean, it's a 3015 02:28:40.170 --> 02:28:43.010 hard concept for some churches, but churches tend to get 3016 02:28:43.030 --> 02:28:46.309 very impatient. But then the National Science Foundation, for example, 3017 02:28:46.329 --> 02:28:48.680 if I say I'm going to go study language X, 3018 02:28:49.200 --> 02:28:52.180 And I need funding for five years. Oh, no, we 3019 02:28:52.219 --> 02:28:55.000 fund those and that's a year's funding. Yeah, but nobody 3020 02:28:55.040 --> 02:28:57.020 who goes out for a year really learns it that well. 3021 02:28:57.420 --> 02:28:59.399 I need to learn it a lot better. Oh, yeah, 3022 02:28:59.420 --> 02:29:01.200 we'll go somewhere else. We're not giving you the money 3023 02:29:01.239 --> 02:29:01.500 for that. 3024 02:29:02.500 --> 02:29:04.899 Oh, that's ridiculous. Are there really a lot of people 3025 02:29:04.920 --> 02:29:07.059 that are willing to do that kind of extensive work? 3026 02:29:07.260 --> 02:29:08.180 I wouldn't say a lot. 3027 02:29:08.569 --> 02:29:10.129 But enough to do it? 3028 02:29:10.469 --> 02:29:17.280 Well, there's 8,000 languages and there's maybe 2,000. 3,000, let's 3029 02:29:17.299 --> 02:29:21.059 say 5,000 linguists in the whole world, and only a 3030 02:29:21.280 --> 02:29:23.180 small percentage of them want to do this kind of work. 3031 02:29:23.750 --> 02:29:25.309 The rest of them, most of them want to do 3032 02:29:25.370 --> 02:29:27.190 Chomsky's kind of work where you sit at your desk 3033 02:29:27.610 --> 02:29:30.129 and you say language has this property and it must 3034 02:29:30.309 --> 02:29:33.790 also have this property. And so the rubber is never 3035 02:29:33.829 --> 02:29:37.530 meeting the road. I mean, if you can do your 3036 02:29:37.549 --> 02:29:41.209 field research on database, I shouldn't say that because that's 3037 02:29:41.250 --> 02:29:43.469 what my son does. He's also a linguist and he 3038 02:29:43.510 --> 02:29:46.780 grew up in an Indian tribe And he also did 3039 02:29:46.819 --> 02:29:48.979 a dissertation on another tribe that he learned to speak 3040 02:29:49.000 --> 02:29:51.979 the language. But nowadays he goes through databases and comes 3041 02:29:52.059 --> 02:29:57.149 up with statistical generalizations. And it's pretty interesting. But he'll 3042 02:29:57.190 --> 02:29:58.649 tell me flat out. He said, yeah, I don't want 3043 02:29:58.670 --> 02:30:01.709 to do that fieldwork anymore. That's really demanding even though 3044 02:30:01.729 --> 02:30:04.530 he grew up there. And that's the way most people are. 3045 02:30:05.069 --> 02:30:10.030 How many more cultures that have completely different languages and 3046 02:30:10.090 --> 02:30:14.809 completely different sets of rules and structure– are out there 3047 02:30:14.860 --> 02:30:15.690 that we're not aware of? 3048 02:30:17.709 --> 02:30:21.790 Well, back in the 80s, they used to say there's 3049 02:30:21.809 --> 02:30:26.590 about 5,000 languages. So 20 years later, 21 years later, 3050 02:30:26.629 --> 02:30:32.690 we're saying, or 31 years later, we're saying there are 8,000. 3051 02:30:32.690 --> 02:30:35.170 Languages die out at the rate of about one every 3052 02:30:35.229 --> 02:30:39.079 two weeks. So they're dying. And once they die, we 3053 02:30:39.120 --> 02:30:43.020 can never recover that information. But also languages are being born. 3054 02:30:43.739 --> 02:30:46.899 On a regular basis because you talk like who you 3055 02:30:46.940 --> 02:30:50.799 talk with. So why are Portuguese and Spanish separate languages? 3056 02:30:51.420 --> 02:30:54.299 Because you've got the Eber River and you've got natural 3057 02:30:54.340 --> 02:30:58.190 divides between– in that part of the Iberian Peninsula. And 3058 02:30:58.229 --> 02:30:59.989 so they stop talking to each other and so their 3059 02:31:00.030 --> 02:31:04.450 speech diverges. That's how Latin became French and Romanian and 3060 02:31:05.350 --> 02:31:08.629 Germanic became English. So they stop talking to each other. 3061 02:31:09.090 --> 02:31:12.530 So as soon as people stop talking, their language evolves. 3062 02:31:13.500 --> 02:31:15.739 And they have different languages. So British English and American 3063 02:31:15.780 --> 02:31:19.729 English have evolved apart. And yet at the same time, 3064 02:31:20.079 --> 02:31:22.309 we have television and movies and things that keeps them 3065 02:31:22.649 --> 02:31:27.930 sort of together. But if you don't have media and 3066 02:31:27.950 --> 02:31:32.409 you don't have that, then eventually they're not talking with 3067 02:31:32.450 --> 02:31:35.610 each other at all and they become different languages. And 3068 02:31:35.629 --> 02:31:36.950 that's where most languages come from. 3069 02:31:37.309 --> 02:31:40.889 Wow. And there's got to be a lot of these 3070 02:31:40.909 --> 02:31:42.950 tribes that aren't talking to each other. And how many 3071 02:31:42.969 --> 02:31:46.110 of these tribes have been investigated and how many people 3072 02:31:46.129 --> 02:31:48.790 have been embedded in the– are there tribes out there 3073 02:31:48.829 --> 02:31:51.639 where there's no one has ever examined a language? No 3074 02:31:51.690 --> 02:31:53.700 one has ever embedded themselves in their culture? 3075 02:31:55.379 --> 02:31:58.659 There are– there probably are over 1,000 where no one 3076 02:31:58.680 --> 02:32:01.159 has gone there. But there are a couple of thousand 3077 02:32:01.520 --> 02:32:04.500 where no scientist has gone there to study their language 3078 02:32:04.620 --> 02:32:05.239 or their culture. 3079 02:32:05.360 --> 02:32:06.180 A couple thousand. 3080 02:32:06.319 --> 02:32:08.840 Yeah, a couple thousand I would say, if not more. 3081 02:32:09.319 --> 02:32:11.879 And they probably have completely different languages. 3082 02:32:12.200 --> 02:32:15.889 Yeah, you know, we're worried, and we should be, about 3083 02:32:15.909 --> 02:32:19.129 the disappearance of certain bird species and all these other 3084 02:32:19.149 --> 02:32:22.170 kinds of species. And we should be concerned about that. 3085 02:32:22.870 --> 02:32:26.209 But we're not concerned enough about the disappearance of these 3086 02:32:26.270 --> 02:32:30.229 languages and how the new languages are arising. And why 3087 02:32:30.250 --> 02:32:32.610 should we be concerned? Well, for one thing, every language 3088 02:32:33.370 --> 02:32:37.370 is like a library. It's a repository of information that 3089 02:32:37.469 --> 02:32:41.360 is lost when they switch to Portuguese. Because Portuguese doesn't 3090 02:32:41.399 --> 02:32:43.520 have all the same knowledge embedded in it. It doesn't 3091 02:32:43.559 --> 02:32:46.000 have the same way of talking about the world. There's 3092 02:32:46.040 --> 02:32:50.639 a lot that's missing. Every pitahã, every child, every woman, 3093 02:32:50.719 --> 02:32:54.489 every man knows the name of every species of plant 3094 02:32:54.620 --> 02:32:58.049 and animal in their environment. They will never just say tree. 3095 02:32:58.389 --> 02:33:00.729 Like I walked with the pitahã into the jungle and 3096 02:33:00.750 --> 02:33:03.209 they said, this is what we call this. And so 3097 02:33:03.229 --> 02:33:05.129 I write it down. What do you call it? Tree. 3098 02:33:05.149 --> 02:33:06.969 What do you call that over there? 3099 02:33:06.989 --> 02:33:07.530 Tree. Tree. 3100 02:33:08.159 --> 02:33:08.959 And what's that over there? 3101 02:33:09.239 --> 02:33:09.459 Tree. 3102 02:33:09.559 --> 02:33:11.459 They said, you just have one word for all these things. 3103 02:33:12.260 --> 02:33:15.620 But they're calling them by the species name. And I'm thinking, well, 3104 02:33:16.170 --> 02:33:17.809 I told them, I said, well, there's some Americans who 3105 02:33:17.829 --> 02:33:19.489 do know all the different names, but I'm just not 3106 02:33:19.569 --> 02:33:21.649 one of them. But they find it hard to believe 3107 02:33:21.690 --> 02:33:24.770 that any American could get by without that knowledge of 3108 02:33:24.909 --> 02:33:30.170 their environment. So when that language goes, we've lost the difference. 3109 02:33:30.209 --> 02:33:32.989 So a friend of mine did a study on how 3110 02:33:33.329 --> 02:33:36.530 a group in the Amazon classified birds. And they don't 3111 02:33:36.590 --> 02:33:41.030 classify them based on their anatomy like Western science. They 3112 02:33:41.069 --> 02:33:44.299 classify them based on what they eat. And so if 3113 02:33:44.340 --> 02:33:46.979 you know their classification, you know what all these birds eat. 3114 02:33:47.459 --> 02:33:49.379 And you know how to deal with those birds to 3115 02:33:49.440 --> 02:33:52.700 capture them or to follow them. And when that language 3116 02:33:52.780 --> 02:33:58.469 is gone, all that knowledge is gone. So it's like 3117 02:33:59.530 --> 02:34:02.250 the Library of Congress has been blown up or something 3118 02:34:02.409 --> 02:34:04.850 when you lose a language. And why do new languages 3119 02:34:04.889 --> 02:34:07.190 come into being? What are the conditions? And what does 3120 02:34:07.229 --> 02:34:09.469 all this mean for us being human beings? How do 3121 02:34:09.489 --> 02:34:12.309 we know ourselves better? How are we to understand our 3122 02:34:12.370 --> 02:34:16.059 species if we don't study all the different exemplars of 3123 02:34:16.110 --> 02:34:21.020 our species? And that's the challenge, and that's what keeps 3124 02:34:21.059 --> 02:34:23.659 the work exciting, but it also is what makes it 3125 02:34:23.700 --> 02:34:27.520 a challenge because you tell a really bright 25-year-old or 3126 02:34:27.540 --> 02:34:32.909 24-year-old PhD student, Okay, now you have to take off 3127 02:34:32.950 --> 02:34:36.850 to the jungle for three years or four. And they're thinking, 3128 02:34:37.670 --> 02:34:40.450 I could get a job without doing that. I don't 3129 02:34:40.510 --> 02:34:42.219 need to go spend four years in the jungle to 3130 02:34:42.250 --> 02:34:45.280 get a job. And a professor is a pretty cushy job. 3131 02:34:45.319 --> 02:34:49.399 It doesn't pay well, but it's also– it's not like 3132 02:34:49.479 --> 02:34:52.139 real labor. And I told– people tell me how hard 3133 02:34:52.200 --> 02:34:54.120 professors work. I said, yeah, well, it does take a 3134 02:34:54.159 --> 02:34:55.920 lot of hours, but I'd rather do this than run 3135 02:34:55.959 --> 02:34:58.459 a jackhammer because I ran a jackhammer. And I'll tell you, 3136 02:34:58.500 --> 02:35:01.840 this is a lot easier than running a jackhammer. So– 3137 02:35:03.229 --> 02:35:04.870 But you go off to the field and you spend 3138 02:35:04.909 --> 02:35:08.430 this time. Ironically, anthropologists seem more prepared to do this 3139 02:35:08.469 --> 02:35:11.520 than linguists. And the other ironic thing is I know– 3140 02:35:11.770 --> 02:35:14.729 this is anecdote. I know more anthropologists who speak the 3141 02:35:14.790 --> 02:35:17.569 language fluently than I know linguists who speak the language fluently, 3142 02:35:17.590 --> 02:35:22.719 which I have to put down to the pernicious influence 3143 02:35:22.780 --> 02:35:25.899 of certain theories and linguistics that makes people think they 3144 02:35:25.940 --> 02:35:28.239 don't have to learn a language to know how it works. 3145 02:35:28.659 --> 02:35:28.879 Right. 3146 02:35:29.659 --> 02:35:31.639 And I tell people, when you're going off to do fieldwork, 3147 02:35:31.680 --> 02:35:33.399 I did write a field manual. And I say, the 3148 02:35:33.440 --> 02:35:36.120 first six months, just work on learning the language. Don't 3149 02:35:36.680 --> 02:35:39.819 take many notes. Take notes of words and stuff. So 3150 02:35:39.840 --> 02:35:41.299 I had a goal where I wanted to learn 10 3151 02:35:41.299 --> 02:35:44.000 new words a day. And I kept a little spiral 3152 02:35:44.799 --> 02:35:48.260 notebook clip in my belt buckle. And I would walk 3153 02:35:48.319 --> 02:35:50.180 around learning these things. And I would learn new words 3154 02:35:50.239 --> 02:35:53.200 and write those down. And then I would spend the 3155 02:35:53.299 --> 02:35:55.620 evening memorizing those words. And I would try them out 3156 02:35:55.680 --> 02:35:57.379 again the next day. And I'd try to make sentences 3157 02:35:57.399 --> 02:35:59.819 with them. And when people start laughing at you, you 3158 02:35:59.860 --> 02:36:02.120 know that I didn't get that right. And sometimes they 3159 02:36:02.139 --> 02:36:05.360 like to teach you dirty words, right? They think that's hilarious. 3160 02:36:05.399 --> 02:36:09.799 You know, you'll ask– so then I– how do you 3161 02:36:09.840 --> 02:36:12.379 learn the words for genitals, for example? That's kind of 3162 02:36:12.399 --> 02:36:14.719 an embarrassing thing if you stop and think about it. 3163 02:36:15.120 --> 02:36:17.340 So I started to ask the guy. I said, what 3164 02:36:17.360 --> 02:36:19.139 do you call that? I pointed to his dick and 3165 02:36:19.540 --> 02:36:22.920 he said– and he calls– he says, I'm not going 3166 02:36:22.940 --> 02:36:24.459 to tell you. But he calls a little boy over 3167 02:36:24.520 --> 02:36:26.840 who's naked. And he shows me every part of his body. 3168 02:36:26.860 --> 02:36:28.319 And he said, you call this this and this that 3169 02:36:28.340 --> 02:36:31.620 and this that. And then he says, but the names 3170 02:36:31.680 --> 02:36:36.590 change once they start to grow hair. So penis as 3171 02:36:36.629 --> 02:36:39.209 a boy is different from penis as a man and 3172 02:36:39.250 --> 02:36:41.649 vagina as a girl is different from vagina as a woman. 3173 02:36:42.149 --> 02:36:44.329 And so, you know, how do you get those words? 3174 02:36:46.959 --> 02:36:48.579 You've got to count on close friendships. 3175 02:36:51.399 --> 02:36:53.059 Like I said at the beginning of this, man, you've 3176 02:36:53.100 --> 02:36:57.600 had a fascinating life. You really have. It's very, very interesting. 3177 02:36:57.819 --> 02:37:01.059 I really appreciate you sharing everything today. It was really, 3178 02:37:01.360 --> 02:37:01.860 really fun. 3179 02:37:02.479 --> 02:37:03.540 Thank you very much for having me. 3180 02:37:03.540 --> 02:37:08.860 I enjoyed it. Jamie, pull up his book. Well, books, 3181 02:37:09.000 --> 02:37:13.649 I should say. This one, Daniel Everett, Don't Sleep, There 3182 02:37:13.690 --> 02:37:20.290 Are Snakes. The Life and Language in the Amazon Jungle, 3183 02:37:20.450 --> 02:37:21.350 Amazonian Jungle. 3184 02:37:21.840 --> 02:37:23.860 That's what they say to each other each night before 3185 02:37:23.879 --> 02:37:25.579 they go to bed. Don't sleep, there are snakes. 3186 02:37:30.350 --> 02:37:31.989 Amazing. Thank you very much. 3187 02:37:32.069 --> 02:37:32.979 Thank you so much for having me. 3188 02:37:33.049 --> 02:37:34.690 It was awesome. Bye, everybody.