WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.040 --> 00:00:02.319 Hey, you welcome to Mythic Mind, where we pursue wisdom 2 00:00:02.319 --> 00:00:05.080 in the past between primary and secondary worlds. I'm your host, 3 00:00:05.160 --> 00:00:07.400 Andrew Snyder, and I always welcome you to join me 4 00:00:07.440 --> 00:00:10.000 on these trails. I don't have any brand new content 5 00:00:10.039 --> 00:00:12.359 for you at this moment, as I've been making myself 6 00:00:12.439 --> 00:00:14.640 take some time off to rest and to just be 7 00:00:14.759 --> 00:00:16.920 with my family. And I really love doing both of 8 00:00:16.920 --> 00:00:20.120 those things, especially being with my family, but it still 9 00:00:20.160 --> 00:00:23.000 isn't easy for me to do, just because I'm someone 10 00:00:23.039 --> 00:00:25.640 who always feels like I should be researching, that should 11 00:00:25.679 --> 00:00:28.440 be producing. I got into certain habits when I was 12 00:00:28.440 --> 00:00:31.559 writing my dissertation that I just was never able to shake, 13 00:00:31.600 --> 00:00:34.479 which is kind of a blessing anachurse at times. But 14 00:00:34.520 --> 00:00:37.079 so it's been good just to chill out a little bit, 15 00:00:37.399 --> 00:00:39.600 although I have been doing a little bit of work 16 00:00:39.640 --> 00:00:42.399 here and there. I recently signed off on a publication 17 00:00:42.520 --> 00:00:44.920 deal for a book on the Lord of the Rings, 18 00:00:45.200 --> 00:00:47.600 and I should have that done by mid to late spring, 19 00:00:47.679 --> 00:00:49.479 and so I'll have more details on that when we 20 00:00:49.479 --> 00:00:52.640 get a little bit closer. Also, I've been getting ready 21 00:00:52.679 --> 00:00:55.280 for the upcoming Lord of the Rings study, which begins 22 00:00:55.359 --> 00:00:58.560 in just a couple of weeks at this point, and 23 00:00:58.600 --> 00:01:00.799 this is going to really be in an riching time. 24 00:01:01.200 --> 00:01:03.799 It certainly has been for me already in preparation, and 25 00:01:03.840 --> 00:01:05.120 I think it's also just gonna be a lot of 26 00:01:05.159 --> 00:01:07.640 fun as we read through the story The Lord of 27 00:01:07.640 --> 00:01:10.959 the Rings over twelve weeks and discuss it together. Each 28 00:01:10.959 --> 00:01:13.920 week includes two videos, one of which is a shorter 29 00:01:14.200 --> 00:01:18.599 wildcard video that gets into some theme or background story 30 00:01:18.719 --> 00:01:22.040 or secondary source, or just something that provides an extra 31 00:01:22.159 --> 00:01:25.159 layer of understanding, and the second video serves as a 32 00:01:25.200 --> 00:01:28.120 companion for that week's reading. We'll also be meeting for 33 00:01:28.159 --> 00:01:32.200 weekly zoom conversations, and we have an ongoing discord conversation 34 00:01:32.280 --> 00:01:34.439 going on. Many of you are all ready to go 35 00:01:34.519 --> 00:01:36.840 with this, but there's still time to enroll if you 36 00:01:36.840 --> 00:01:38.840 haven't done so already, and you have two options for 37 00:01:38.920 --> 00:01:42.239 doing that. First, you can purchase the course through Padia 38 00:01:42.480 --> 00:01:44.040 and you can find a link for that in the 39 00:01:44.079 --> 00:01:46.359 show notes, or you can become a patron at tier 40 00:01:46.439 --> 00:01:50.159 three or higher through Patreon. Both options give you the 41 00:01:50.200 --> 00:01:55.239 same content regarding this course, including discord access. However, the 42 00:01:55.280 --> 00:01:58.560 Patreon route also allows you to listen to everything through 43 00:01:58.599 --> 00:02:01.599 the patren podcast feed. Whereas Pottia does not have the 44 00:02:01.640 --> 00:02:05.439 podcast feed, and also Patronage gives you access to other 45 00:02:05.480 --> 00:02:08.879 Mythic Mind content, including the philosophy and fiction of CS. 46 00:02:08.960 --> 00:02:12.039 Lewis course and the Beowulf in Boethis course. Once we 47 00:02:12.159 --> 00:02:14.680 hit our next goal, personally, I think this is the 48 00:02:14.680 --> 00:02:17.080 better option. It's kind of where I see things going 49 00:02:17.120 --> 00:02:19.439 long term in the future. But for now at least, 50 00:02:19.479 --> 00:02:22.560 that's entirely up to you which option you prefer. But 51 00:02:22.599 --> 00:02:24.680 for this latter option, which again I am recommending at 52 00:02:24.680 --> 00:02:27.360 this point if you haven't already enrolled otherwise, go to 53 00:02:27.439 --> 00:02:30.879 patreon dot com slash Mythic Mind to subscribe at tier 54 00:02:30.919 --> 00:02:33.439 three or higher, and there is a discount for an 55 00:02:33.479 --> 00:02:35.719 annual subscription with that as well. And if you do 56 00:02:35.800 --> 00:02:39.000 go this route, I would tell you to subscribe through 57 00:02:39.039 --> 00:02:42.159 the browser on your phone or on your computer. Don't 58 00:02:42.280 --> 00:02:46.680 use the Patreon app to subscribe because when you do that, 59 00:02:47.000 --> 00:02:49.840 Apple increases the charges that can shape them off the top. 60 00:02:50.120 --> 00:02:54.039 So youtub browser, not the Patreon app to subscribe. All right, 61 00:02:54.080 --> 00:02:56.400 And for now, as I continue to consolidate our two 62 00:02:56.479 --> 00:02:59.560 podcasts into one, I bring you the second Fellowship episode 63 00:02:59.599 --> 00:03:01.960 on the and so whether you're listening to this for 64 00:03:02.000 --> 00:03:04.599 the first time or to repeat, I hope that you enjoy. 65 00:03:16.080 --> 00:03:18.960 Hello and welcome to the Mythic Mind Fellowship podcast, which 66 00:03:19.000 --> 00:03:21.039 is a platform for giving a voice to our patrons. 67 00:03:21.360 --> 00:03:23.560 My name is Andrew Snyder, and I'm the founder of 68 00:03:23.560 --> 00:03:26.759 this fellowship and the hosts of the Mythic Mind Legacy podcast, 69 00:03:26.960 --> 00:03:41.639 and I heartily welcome you around our heart. This is 70 00:03:41.680 --> 00:03:44.080 the second episode in our patron led series on the 71 00:03:44.080 --> 00:03:46.759 Poetic Eda, which is one of our primary sources for 72 00:03:46.800 --> 00:03:50.360 information on Norse myths and legends. This is a lot 73 00:03:50.400 --> 00:03:51.840 of fun and I would love for you to join 74 00:03:51.960 --> 00:03:54.280 us in these chats. If you're interested in doing so, 75 00:03:54.360 --> 00:03:56.879 just head over to patreon dot com slash Mythic Mind 76 00:03:57.159 --> 00:03:59.680 and sign up with any level of support, And of 77 00:03:59.719 --> 00:04:01.719 course you can lend your support even if you don't 78 00:04:01.719 --> 00:04:03.759 want to join these conversations but you do want to 79 00:04:03.800 --> 00:04:06.680 see us have the ability to do more things like 80 00:04:06.759 --> 00:04:09.520 this on a regular basis. And if you're listening to 81 00:04:09.560 --> 00:04:11.840 this as a podcast, know that you can also catch 82 00:04:11.840 --> 00:04:14.599 the video on my YouTube channel, which you'll find a 83 00:04:14.639 --> 00:04:16.920 link to in the show notes. And if you're watching 84 00:04:16.920 --> 00:04:18.920 this on YouTube, know that you can also catch it 85 00:04:18.920 --> 00:04:21.439 on the podcast. Well, now let's go ahead and jump 86 00:04:21.480 --> 00:04:31.680 into the conversation. All right, Well, welcome back to the 87 00:04:31.800 --> 00:04:34.720 latest Mythic Mind Fellowship Chat as we continue through the 88 00:04:34.759 --> 00:04:38.600 poetic etam. This is our second episode on that, going 89 00:04:38.600 --> 00:04:42.040 through the next four sections of the atom, starting with 90 00:04:43.040 --> 00:04:46.800 bathrooun Deer's sayings, which is just saying that I'm probably 91 00:04:46.839 --> 00:04:49.399 butchering the Norse, but it still sounds really cool, especially 92 00:04:49.399 --> 00:04:54.560 if you just say confidently with some guttural intensity behind it. Well, 93 00:04:54.839 --> 00:04:57.439 so joined today by Thomas, who was with us last 94 00:04:57.439 --> 00:04:59.600 time and he's obviously made a number of appearances by 95 00:04:59.600 --> 00:05:02.680 this point. And then Chase, who's been on the other 96 00:05:02.720 --> 00:05:05.480 show we were talking about the ransom stuff, but first 97 00:05:05.480 --> 00:05:08.680 time on the Fellowship podcast. So Jase, Honey, tell us 98 00:05:08.759 --> 00:05:09.240 who you are. 99 00:05:10.920 --> 00:05:18.399 Yeah, Chase, I'm in Texas and just found out about 100 00:05:19.160 --> 00:05:23.759 Andrews classes and I did the Lewis class, and I 101 00:05:23.920 --> 00:05:26.879 just finished up the bo Atheist and Beowolf class and 102 00:05:27.040 --> 00:05:29.639 just can't get enough of it. So really enjoyed just 103 00:05:30.680 --> 00:05:33.040 giving myself a classical education in some. 104 00:05:32.920 --> 00:05:38.920 Ways fantastic And you know, you definitely have the beard 105 00:05:38.959 --> 00:05:41.920 for this conversation. I feel a little envious as we're 106 00:05:41.920 --> 00:05:47.560 talking about, you know, vikings and the Norse mythos. Well, 107 00:05:48.879 --> 00:05:51.639 just like last time, I'm gonna start off with each 108 00:05:51.680 --> 00:05:53.519 of these sections that we're reading. I'm just gonna read 109 00:05:53.879 --> 00:05:56.279 at least a portion of the intro that provided in 110 00:05:56.360 --> 00:06:00.560 the Larrington translation of the poetic Adam, since I know 111 00:06:00.560 --> 00:06:02.560 that the probably a number of people listening who haven't 112 00:06:02.680 --> 00:06:04.600 read along, and by the way, I should say that 113 00:06:04.600 --> 00:06:07.399 we're all amateurs at this kind of reading along ourselves 114 00:06:07.399 --> 00:06:09.560 for the first time, and so you know, we all 115 00:06:09.600 --> 00:06:13.079 have some interest in myths and legends and obviously the 116 00:06:13.120 --> 00:06:16.160 material that's been inspired by these legends, people like Tolkien, 117 00:06:16.160 --> 00:06:17.759 people like Lewis, and so it's a lot of fun 118 00:06:17.800 --> 00:06:19.920 to get beneath the surface and read the kinds of 119 00:06:19.959 --> 00:06:22.600 things that these people are reading. But I should emphasize 120 00:06:22.639 --> 00:06:25.439 that we are all just amateurs in these waters. But 121 00:06:25.519 --> 00:06:28.399 it's I think that's kind of fun as well. But yeah, 122 00:06:28.439 --> 00:06:30.040 I'm just gonna read a portion of the interest so 123 00:06:30.120 --> 00:06:32.040 that way we all have an idea as to what 124 00:06:32.079 --> 00:06:33.920 it is that we're talking about, and those kind of 125 00:06:33.959 --> 00:06:39.439 jumping around to whatever we feel like discussing. As the 126 00:06:39.439 --> 00:06:42.519 Seers prophecy saying that the High One and Greenmeier Sayings 127 00:06:42.600 --> 00:06:46.560 show Odin is characterized by his obsessive quest for wisdom, 128 00:06:46.800 --> 00:06:51.120 particularly for information about Ragnarok. In this poem, he sets off, 129 00:06:51.199 --> 00:06:54.560 against his wife's advice, disguise as a poor wanderer to 130 00:06:54.639 --> 00:06:58.480 test his wisdom against the giant bathroom deer known only 131 00:06:58.519 --> 00:07:01.959 from this poem, Odin has proved his metal by answering 132 00:07:02.040 --> 00:07:04.680 questions with the giant puts to him. He is invited 133 00:07:04.720 --> 00:07:07.560 to risk his head in questioning the giant. Buffery or 134 00:07:07.639 --> 00:07:12.040 sayings or Bathrudsmal belongs to the Giant Era of Wisdom 135 00:07:12.079 --> 00:07:15.680 contest known in many other cultures, and so this really 136 00:07:15.720 --> 00:07:18.920 comes down to a riddle contest. It's a contest of lore, 137 00:07:19.160 --> 00:07:22.199 which I mean, these contests should sound very familiar to 138 00:07:22.279 --> 00:07:25.040 us from you know, some of the literature that's been 139 00:07:25.079 --> 00:07:27.600 inspired from these stories, you know, I think of obviously 140 00:07:27.600 --> 00:07:29.920 Tolkien got your Riddles in the Dark with the. 141 00:07:29.720 --> 00:07:33.560 Yes, that was what I first thought of when when 142 00:07:33.920 --> 00:07:37.639 the little pro section before was explaining that, I'm like, 143 00:07:37.680 --> 00:07:40.000 it's Riddles of the Dark exactly. 144 00:07:40.079 --> 00:07:42.720 And then even I mean, you know it's spoiler. I 145 00:07:42.720 --> 00:07:45.480 guess you know at the end, you know, when Odin 146 00:07:45.519 --> 00:07:47.360 asked a question that only he could know. I mean, 147 00:07:47.439 --> 00:07:50.600 that's that's Bilbo, right, Uh, what's my pocket? It's like 148 00:07:50.680 --> 00:07:53.639 no one else can know that, And so I have 149 00:07:53.680 --> 00:07:56.560 to believe that Tolkien's pulling something from that. And then 150 00:07:56.600 --> 00:07:58.920 also I think of in that hideous strength when Merlin 151 00:07:58.959 --> 00:08:02.000 and Ransom starts ring with lore, you know, going back 152 00:08:02.000 --> 00:08:04.360 and forth about you know, just different aspects of the 153 00:08:04.439 --> 00:08:08.120 cosmos and you know, the mythos, and I've definitely see 154 00:08:08.160 --> 00:08:13.360 that pulled from this this genre as well. But yeah, 155 00:08:13.360 --> 00:08:15.040 so I mean, what'd you get? What'd you think of this? 156 00:08:15.120 --> 00:08:16.600 I mean, what are some things that stood out to 157 00:08:16.639 --> 00:08:18.600 you or you know, your first impressions. 158 00:08:19.800 --> 00:08:22.720 I felt like a lot of the questions, though, didn't 159 00:08:22.959 --> 00:08:25.920 seem like riddles to me. They just seemed more like 160 00:08:26.040 --> 00:08:30.439 trivia questions like can you answer this fact about the 161 00:08:30.560 --> 00:08:33.519 cosmos or about history or about the future. I'm like, 162 00:08:33.600 --> 00:08:34.879 is that really a riddle? 163 00:08:36.600 --> 00:08:39.639 It more like a question. Yeah. It definitely did seem 164 00:08:39.679 --> 00:08:46.399 more like a Jeopardy Mythology edition. Uh. Yeah, And so 165 00:08:46.480 --> 00:08:49.960 I agree that that's why I I feel like it 166 00:08:50.000 --> 00:08:54.639 has more resonance, you know, with specifically in that hideous 167 00:08:54.679 --> 00:08:57.559 strength that Ranks and Merlin lore battle when they are 168 00:08:57.600 --> 00:09:00.679 just you know, spotting off different aspects of lore. But 169 00:09:00.759 --> 00:09:02.279 I do think that ending is very riddles in the 170 00:09:02.320 --> 00:09:06.399 dark to me. I don't know, what do you think 171 00:09:06.399 --> 00:09:07.200 going into the chase? 172 00:09:08.639 --> 00:09:13.080 Yeah, I mean interesting kind of have like the threat 173 00:09:13.159 --> 00:09:15.919 of like you know, if you're not wise, like you're 174 00:09:15.919 --> 00:09:22.639 not leaving the hall, and just kind of like battling 175 00:09:22.799 --> 00:09:26.240 a little bit with I couldn't tell if he was 176 00:09:26.320 --> 00:09:31.200 like offering hospitality a bit of like kind with me, 177 00:09:31.360 --> 00:09:33.639 and then he's like, I'm not going to be tricked 178 00:09:33.679 --> 00:09:35.879 by something like that. I'm gonna stay where I'm at 179 00:09:36.000 --> 00:09:37.360 right now. I'm okay with that. 180 00:09:38.399 --> 00:09:42.960 But yeah, the hospitality definitely seems to be an invitation 181 00:09:43.080 --> 00:09:50.120 to a challenge, not genuine hospitality per se. Right, And 182 00:09:50.559 --> 00:09:53.200 I do find it interesting that Bothrond you that the 183 00:09:53.279 --> 00:09:58.200 Giant is he tends to be mostly focused on asking 184 00:09:58.279 --> 00:10:00.919 questions about just you know, general about the world as 185 00:10:00.960 --> 00:10:04.960 it is, whereas Odin has a much more chronological interest 186 00:10:05.399 --> 00:10:08.039 and that he has questions like from Origins going all 187 00:10:08.039 --> 00:10:10.679 the way up to Ragnarok. And this I think is 188 00:10:10.759 --> 00:10:13.200 to a theme that we see with Odin again and again. 189 00:10:13.639 --> 00:10:16.000 He's trying to get some understanding regarding the fate of 190 00:10:16.000 --> 00:10:17.919 the gods. He wants to know what's going to happen 191 00:10:17.960 --> 00:10:21.799 to him. I guess, out of some hope to evade 192 00:10:21.840 --> 00:10:24.919 fate maybe or at the very least to know what 193 00:10:25.000 --> 00:10:28.159 awaits him. And so he definitely has an interest regarding 194 00:10:28.159 --> 00:10:30.519 the timeline, I think more so than we get with 195 00:10:30.600 --> 00:10:32.399 the Giant, which I think is kind of interesting. 196 00:10:34.919 --> 00:10:37.559 I just thought it was interesting how kind of like 197 00:10:37.679 --> 00:10:43.759 visualizing the scene and how Odin had shown himself as 198 00:10:43.799 --> 00:10:47.279 basically a man, so I'm assuming he's small compared to 199 00:10:47.320 --> 00:10:52.200 this giant. Then he's also giants up sitting and he's 200 00:10:52.240 --> 00:10:54.200 talking about like you're from the floor, So I can 201 00:10:54.279 --> 00:10:57.200 just imagine like how imposing that would be, you know, 202 00:10:57.320 --> 00:11:00.840 like talking back and forth right you're he's seeing Odin 203 00:11:00.960 --> 00:11:04.360 so small that he's like, you're there from the hall floor, 204 00:11:04.519 --> 00:11:06.639 not front up by me. 205 00:11:08.440 --> 00:11:11.840 Yeah. I think that's part of Odin's tendency to mask 206 00:11:11.960 --> 00:11:13.559 his identity, and the fact that he is masking his 207 00:11:13.600 --> 00:11:16.759 identity or he's using a pseudonym here, it's not The 208 00:11:16.799 --> 00:11:19.399 Giant doesn't figure this out until the very end, and 209 00:11:19.559 --> 00:11:22.440 Odin does this all the time. Whenever Odin makes an appearance, 210 00:11:22.799 --> 00:11:25.919 he's almost always using a false name. He's in disguise, 211 00:11:26.080 --> 00:11:29.000 he's veiled in some way, shape or form, And I 212 00:11:29.039 --> 00:11:32.440 can only assume that's because you know, Odin's associated with wisdom, 213 00:11:32.679 --> 00:11:35.320 and so you know, speaks to the fact that wisdom 214 00:11:35.639 --> 00:11:37.759 requires the right kind of eyes to see. That you 215 00:11:37.799 --> 00:11:40.919 have to be wise in order to see wisdom, right, 216 00:11:40.960 --> 00:11:43.320 that the beginning of wisdom is this, get wisdom. The 217 00:11:43.360 --> 00:11:47.559 Proverbs tell us it's like it's kind of paradoxical, but 218 00:11:47.559 --> 00:11:52.080 it's like you need wisdom to reveal wisdom. And even 219 00:11:52.120 --> 00:11:55.120 Odin himself, you know, he has one eye because he 220 00:11:55.159 --> 00:11:57.159 had a sacrifice part of his vision in order to 221 00:11:57.240 --> 00:11:59.840 get wisdom. And so it's like you have to learn 222 00:11:59.879 --> 00:12:01.919 to see with the right eyes. And so, you know, 223 00:12:01.960 --> 00:12:04.519 wisdom is veiled and it's dealing with mortals, and we 224 00:12:04.639 --> 00:12:06.720 need the right kind of wisdom to uncover it. 225 00:12:07.559 --> 00:12:11.799 I've noticed that Merlin in the Arthur material does this 226 00:12:11.879 --> 00:12:18.799 a lot too, where he'll veil himself in some other form. 227 00:12:17.279 --> 00:12:21.799 You know, yeah, yeah, you know, I'm mostly familiar with 228 00:12:22.200 --> 00:12:26.120 Mallory for the Arthur Mythos does it for like no 229 00:12:26.159 --> 00:12:29.159 reason a lot of times, and I can tell, yeah, 230 00:12:29.759 --> 00:12:33.559 that's very chastly, veiling himself and appearing in different guises 231 00:12:33.600 --> 00:12:38.480 for again no clear reasons sometimes, which you know, it 232 00:12:38.559 --> 00:12:43.120 kind of makes sense that Gandolf is kind of inspired 233 00:12:43.480 --> 00:12:47.200 by Odin as well as surely you know Merlin is 234 00:12:47.200 --> 00:12:50.240 wrapped up in that and so interesting that there are 235 00:12:50.240 --> 00:12:54.679 these crossover tendencies between Merlin and Odin. And I can 236 00:12:54.720 --> 00:12:58.360 only wonder if maybe, you know, the early stories of 237 00:12:58.399 --> 00:13:00.600 Merlin have some connection to the earliest of Odin. 238 00:13:01.080 --> 00:13:01.480 Odin. 239 00:13:01.600 --> 00:13:04.840 Yeah, and I know that that Gandolf also includes like 240 00:13:05.399 --> 00:13:07.440 I read somewhere that he includes a little bit of 241 00:13:07.480 --> 00:13:11.799 Odin as well, especially as like just this wanderer, like 242 00:13:12.399 --> 00:13:16.639 a higher being disguised as an old beggar, just wandering 243 00:13:16.679 --> 00:13:19.320 around and seeking wisdom. 244 00:13:20.240 --> 00:13:22.399 You know, yeah, yeah, if you I mean, if you 245 00:13:22.440 --> 00:13:24.320 look at some of the depictions of Odin, I mean 246 00:13:24.519 --> 00:13:26.879 very much get the Great Pilgrim imagery. 247 00:13:29.600 --> 00:13:33.039 I had wondered too. I don't know enough like historically, 248 00:13:34.240 --> 00:13:38.440 so I know, like Romans had made it to Britain 249 00:13:39.840 --> 00:13:43.679 much earlier than this and had at least brought some Christianity. 250 00:13:43.720 --> 00:13:46.639 I don't know how much like had stayed there throughout 251 00:13:46.679 --> 00:13:49.080 once they had left, or if they had kind of 252 00:13:49.159 --> 00:13:52.639 like completely gone back to take it roots. For the 253 00:13:52.679 --> 00:13:55.799 most part, just trying to see like okay, you know, 254 00:13:55.919 --> 00:14:02.320 like this was like composed like around a thousand, right AD, 255 00:14:02.559 --> 00:14:04.440 or was this earlier or they just don't know. 256 00:14:05.360 --> 00:14:08.759 I mean, I don't I'm not really sure. I know 257 00:14:08.799 --> 00:14:11.320 the pros ata is like somewhere around a thousand or 258 00:14:11.360 --> 00:14:13.840 so with uh, you know Snorri Storlsen, which you know 259 00:14:13.919 --> 00:14:15.720 that comes a little bit later than the poetic at 260 00:14:15.720 --> 00:14:19.399 a I'm actually can't recall offhand when when this was 261 00:14:19.399 --> 00:14:22.399 put together, but I assume more or less the same time. 262 00:14:23.639 --> 00:14:26.399 And I know that that the British Isles essentially had 263 00:14:26.440 --> 00:14:29.960 to be almost re evangelized at one point, where you know, 264 00:14:30.240 --> 00:14:34.720 Augustine of Canterbury is literally sent by the pope to say, okay, 265 00:14:34.879 --> 00:14:37.919 like you know, the Roman authority has collapsed, people are 266 00:14:38.000 --> 00:14:42.360 lapsing back into pagan beliefs. There's the Viking invasions of 267 00:14:42.399 --> 00:14:46.639 the British Isles, Like okay, go take some monks, go 268 00:14:46.759 --> 00:14:49.440 to Britain and re evangelize the place. 269 00:14:50.360 --> 00:14:53.879 Yeah, because I wondered just just from like saying of 270 00:14:53.960 --> 00:14:57.360 like the sayings of what was it, the sayings of 271 00:14:57.360 --> 00:14:59.399 the High One? I was right before it, and then 272 00:14:59.440 --> 00:15:03.320 even like them this like how much of it was 273 00:15:03.360 --> 00:15:06.120 Like Okay, maybe there were some proverbs left over or 274 00:15:06.159 --> 00:15:07.720 something like they had heard a little bit of that 275 00:15:07.840 --> 00:15:10.279 and that knowledge kind of kept in morphed. You know, 276 00:15:10.360 --> 00:15:15.200 I don't know, but I do think it is funny that, 277 00:15:15.559 --> 00:15:18.440 you know, Odin says like it's good to be averagely wise, 278 00:15:18.600 --> 00:15:21.200 but then he's on this quest untill they prove that 279 00:15:21.240 --> 00:15:24.039 he's the most wise, and you're like, you're not taking 280 00:15:24.080 --> 00:15:26.679 your own advice advice? 281 00:15:26.799 --> 00:15:35.799 Yeah, yeah, it is interesting, just kind of wondering exactly 282 00:15:35.840 --> 00:15:39.399 what Odin is doing here. Is he simply trying to 283 00:15:39.399 --> 00:15:42.000 best the giant or is he trying to get some 284 00:15:42.120 --> 00:15:44.679 wisdom from the giant that you know he doesn't know. 285 00:15:44.759 --> 00:15:47.559 And I mean, I guess it kind of seems like 286 00:15:47.600 --> 00:15:49.960 he's trying to get some more knowledge of ragnarotcause my 287 00:15:50.200 --> 00:15:55.039 understanding of it, which. 288 00:15:55.000 --> 00:15:56.559 I think that's what they were saying too, where like 289 00:15:56.600 --> 00:16:01.840 he kind of shuts it down pretty quickly after finding out. 290 00:16:00.879 --> 00:16:04.759 Here, right, he got what he what he wanted to know, 291 00:16:06.799 --> 00:16:11.840 And you know, I I'm always kind of I'm kind 292 00:16:11.879 --> 00:16:13.440 of spitballing it here when I talk about like what 293 00:16:13.480 --> 00:16:15.480 different things mean, because you know, I'm not an expert 294 00:16:15.480 --> 00:16:20.639 on the Northern mythology or philosophy, but I know that, 295 00:16:20.679 --> 00:16:25.000 you know, the giants are more primordial than even the gods, 296 00:16:25.639 --> 00:16:28.039 and so you know, it kind of seems like giants 297 00:16:28.480 --> 00:16:31.960 almost have a sense of timelessness about them. And that 298 00:16:32.080 --> 00:16:35.879 is the gods, who you know, use this kind of 299 00:16:35.879 --> 00:16:40.679 primordial giant was e Mer, right, which they use em 300 00:16:40.879 --> 00:16:44.120 to construct the world, and then they created man within 301 00:16:44.279 --> 00:16:46.879 the you know, the cosmos created by the body of 302 00:16:46.879 --> 00:16:49.440 this giant. It's just like that the gods themselves are 303 00:16:49.480 --> 00:16:53.320 more essentially related to time, the movement of events, the 304 00:16:53.399 --> 00:16:57.039 creation of the material world, and so I assume that 305 00:16:57.039 --> 00:17:01.600 has something to feed into od obsession with sort of 306 00:17:01.600 --> 00:17:03.679 the end of things, the end of his life, the 307 00:17:03.799 --> 00:17:07.400 end of the reign of these gods. That there's almost 308 00:17:07.400 --> 00:17:10.319 a more intrinsically temporal element to the gods and the giants. 309 00:17:11.319 --> 00:17:13.680 I was struck by the creation of the world from 310 00:17:13.799 --> 00:17:17.319 Emir's body because that confused me because I'm like, wait 311 00:17:17.359 --> 00:17:20.519 a minute, I thought the world is the world tree 312 00:17:21.240 --> 00:17:25.119 in Norse mythology. So I'm wondering, like how these how 313 00:17:25.119 --> 00:17:28.599 they reconciled those, like if they were originally two kind 314 00:17:28.640 --> 00:17:34.119 of threads of cosmology that somehow got reconciled, or maybe 315 00:17:34.160 --> 00:17:38.799 like Emir's body is only mid Guard and that doesn't 316 00:17:38.839 --> 00:17:40.920 have to do with the rest of the realms on 317 00:17:41.000 --> 00:17:45.920 the world tree like it. I'm not sure their cosmology 318 00:17:45.960 --> 00:17:47.240 is entirely coherent, but. 319 00:17:49.880 --> 00:17:51.640 I think that's fair, especially when we're dealing with the 320 00:17:51.680 --> 00:17:54.599 poetic ida, which is you know, earlier it's more discordant. 321 00:17:54.640 --> 00:17:57.319 I mean, not all the misagree with each other. We're 322 00:17:57.319 --> 00:17:59.519 dealing with a number of different traditions sort of thrown together. 323 00:18:01.319 --> 00:18:06.799 It's not like they have a universal canon to work with. Yeah, 324 00:18:06.839 --> 00:18:08.440 so I don't know. Maybe it's like maybe it's it's 325 00:18:08.640 --> 00:18:12.000 just mid Guard and that might be, although I'm pretty 326 00:18:12.039 --> 00:18:18.480 sure at some point maybe it was one of the 327 00:18:17.799 --> 00:18:21.680 other the other readings from this this round that they 328 00:18:21.680 --> 00:18:23.880 talk about like Asgard being created as well, you know, 329 00:18:23.920 --> 00:18:28.880 from the Mirror, and so you know, maybe it's just 330 00:18:28.920 --> 00:18:32.920 like you've got the tree, which is like the foundation, 331 00:18:33.200 --> 00:18:34.960 and then the rest is sort of built on top 332 00:18:35.000 --> 00:18:39.119 of it. Perhaps I don't know, or maybe it's just incoherent. 333 00:18:39.160 --> 00:18:44.000 I don't know, but it is interesting that, you know, 334 00:18:44.079 --> 00:18:48.880 a lot of these pagan myths regarding the creation account 335 00:18:49.039 --> 00:18:51.599 deal with something like this, where you know, the world 336 00:18:51.640 --> 00:18:54.440 is made from a dead God or some primordial being. 337 00:18:55.039 --> 00:18:56.799 You see this in that like the Babylonian tale, the 338 00:18:56.799 --> 00:19:00.920 the New my Leish, right, yeah, yeah, right, everything's made 339 00:19:00.920 --> 00:19:08.000 out of Tiamat's body, this chaos goddess, which just all 340 00:19:08.079 --> 00:19:10.880 kinds of interesting conversations that can be had there regarding 341 00:19:10.960 --> 00:19:13.480 like you know, connection to biblical account and that sort 342 00:19:13.480 --> 00:19:16.759 of thing, you know, what's different, but also some of 343 00:19:16.559 --> 00:19:20.440 the themes that overlap. But this is a very common theme. 344 00:19:20.839 --> 00:19:23.519 You see it throughout different cultures, the idea that the 345 00:19:23.559 --> 00:19:26.640 world is made out of some kind of slaughter, some 346 00:19:26.720 --> 00:19:31.519 kind of brutal contest, which leads to the brutality very 347 00:19:31.559 --> 00:19:34.400 often see in the pagan world, right, the world itself 348 00:19:34.480 --> 00:19:37.759 is made out of brutal conflict, and that definitely feeds 349 00:19:37.799 --> 00:19:40.839 into the culture, especially the people like the Norse. You know, 350 00:19:40.960 --> 00:19:44.880 we talked about in the Havamal that there's that proverb 351 00:19:44.920 --> 00:19:47.680 that's just like, you know, if you need to get 352 00:19:47.720 --> 00:19:49.440 up early, if you want to go kill someone to 353 00:19:49.440 --> 00:19:52.599 take their stuff. It's just part of the process of 354 00:19:52.640 --> 00:19:53.799 a daily routine. 355 00:19:54.480 --> 00:19:57.160 It's very different not only from the Biblical account, but 356 00:19:57.240 --> 00:20:01.599 from Tolkien's Creation myth, where you know, the universe is 357 00:20:01.640 --> 00:20:05.359 brought into being through song, you know, and and Lewis 358 00:20:05.400 --> 00:20:08.240 as well with the creation of Narnia, you know. So 359 00:20:08.599 --> 00:20:11.319 it's even though they they they both you know, loved 360 00:20:11.319 --> 00:20:15.640 and respected these these myths, they truly they clearly jettisoned 361 00:20:16.160 --> 00:20:19.839 stuff that did not you know, harmonize well with their 362 00:20:19.920 --> 00:20:23.200 Christian worldview, right. 363 00:20:23.160 --> 00:20:25.480 They you know, I think we said last time, they 364 00:20:25.480 --> 00:20:30.720 gave us the Northern Story as it should have been, right, Yeah, exactly, 365 00:20:30.880 --> 00:20:32.759 like you can get off his Sorrowmond as he should 366 00:20:32.759 --> 00:20:32.960 have been. 367 00:20:34.799 --> 00:20:37.920 It even seemed like in the introduction, like Caroline kind 368 00:20:38.000 --> 00:20:42.759 of like Chasta's snory a little bit, because, like I guess, 369 00:20:42.759 --> 00:20:46.640 story was a Christian guy who was slowly trying to 370 00:20:46.680 --> 00:20:49.960 reconcile a little bit, you know, kind of like Beola 371 00:20:50.039 --> 00:20:52.799 or something else was. And so she was like, well, 372 00:20:52.839 --> 00:20:54.960 I you know, he was trying to like reconcile this 373 00:20:54.960 --> 00:20:58.160 stuff and write it coherently, and he seemed like he 374 00:20:58.400 --> 00:21:01.400 let too much of his Christianity weave itself in and 375 00:21:01.440 --> 00:21:02.680 you're like, okay. 376 00:21:03.279 --> 00:21:05.759 I mean it is interesting that when you read the 377 00:21:06.039 --> 00:21:09.759 prose that, you know, read the introduction that Snory gives us, 378 00:21:10.000 --> 00:21:12.480 and he says, like the gods came from Troy, like 379 00:21:12.960 --> 00:21:15.920 he makes it. He demathologizes some of it as a 380 00:21:15.920 --> 00:21:18.759 way of making it a little bit more palatable. He 381 00:21:19.319 --> 00:21:22.960 turns the gods into this race that came from I mean, 382 00:21:23.000 --> 00:21:26.880 the human civilization essentially, rather than these are the gods 383 00:21:26.920 --> 00:21:29.559 of Asgard who you know, who made everything? 384 00:21:30.960 --> 00:21:34.160 Oh, Geoffrey of Monmouth does that too, with some of 385 00:21:34.200 --> 00:21:37.119 the Arthur stuff he made. He essentially makes everybody he 386 00:21:37.279 --> 00:21:44.039 likes in history like secretly British somehow. It's like Constantine 387 00:21:44.119 --> 00:21:48.599 is British, the Trojans are British, Like everybody he likes 388 00:21:48.640 --> 00:21:49.480 just ends up as. 389 00:21:49.400 --> 00:21:50.279 A British person. 390 00:21:50.920 --> 00:21:57.880 That's funny. Hm, when you do our American telling of 391 00:21:58.079 --> 00:22:09.319 the mythos, Oh no, let's let's not do that. Any 392 00:22:09.519 --> 00:22:13.519 any other thoughts about this reading. I mean, obviously there's 393 00:22:13.519 --> 00:22:16.039 all kinds of lower stuff, but I'm not qualified to 394 00:22:16.039 --> 00:22:17.160 get into some of the weeds on that. 395 00:22:18.559 --> 00:22:22.359 I noticed, like a name drop that I recognized from Tolkien. Actually, 396 00:22:22.400 --> 00:22:27.519 I noticed several horse names that were that are that 397 00:22:27.759 --> 00:22:30.880 Tolkien either tweaked a little bit or just put wholesale 398 00:22:30.880 --> 00:22:34.359 into Lord of the Rings. In this involve Vathrunder saying 399 00:22:34.880 --> 00:22:37.480 there was a horse called frost Maine, and I immediately 400 00:22:37.519 --> 00:22:43.079 thought of Snowmane Thedan's horse, and then later I forget 401 00:22:43.079 --> 00:22:46.240