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Speaker 1: If you want to get the show early and ad free,

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Now listen very carefully. I've had some people ask me

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about this, even though I think on the last ad

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I stated it pretty clearly. If you want an RSS feed,

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access to the audio file. So head on over to

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the pekan Yonashow dot com. You'll see all the ways

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that you can support me there. And I just want

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to thank everyone. It's because of you that I can

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put out the amount of material that I do. I

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can do what I'm doing with doctor Johnson on two

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hundred Years Together and everything else, the things that Thomas

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and I are doing together on kindinal philosophy, it's all

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because of you. And yeah, I mean, I'll never be

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able to thank you enough. So thank you. The pekan

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Yonashow dot com. Everything's there. Want to welcome everyone back

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to the Pekanona show, Jay Burdens back, Hey doing Jay

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doing well?

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Speaker 2: Thanks for having me, Pete.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, man, let's uh, let's get in to this. So

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I think I didn't. My reaction last week wasn't to

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write anything. Why. I'm written out too many years of

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just you know, being a part of a blog and

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having to write something all the time. I'm just I'm

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just wiped. I don't want to write anything anymore. It's

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like I sometimes I sit down and it's just like ah,

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but yeah, I understand the impulse of that when something

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happens that you sit down and you write it. You

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know it was my impulse too, So yeah, I guess

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when you know, with the anniversary of nine to eleven

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last week, you wanted to talk about the towers coming

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down and you know how there were bombs in it

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and the planes were holograms.

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Speaker 2: Right, Well, this is a funny thing. I also write

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for my day job, or as much as the day

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job as I have anymore. So I got one hundred

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percent get it. And as part of making myself right,

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I've learned the best way to do that is to

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make promises. So I promised the guys at the OGC

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like hey, I'll get you an article by this time,

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and as you can imagine, it was I don't know,

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literally twenty four hours before I had, you know, let's

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just say, forty percent of an article done. And then

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this happened, and it was like, okay, well we got

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to talk about this. And normally I try not to

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talk a lot about the current twenty four hour news

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cycle on my show for a number of reasons, which

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is one, you can find that anywhere. Two, it really

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decreases the shelf life of your product. It's not worth

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talking about. And so fairly deliberately. You know, this was

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written about twenty four hours after the event. So in

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the piece itself, Kirkshot Discourse Killed, which you can find

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on the old Glory Club substack, there's some things there

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that I said that were true. As of the time

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of writing, they had not captured the shooter. There was

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no motive as of yet known. We were just kind

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of speculating, I will say, by waiting twenty four hours

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and having certain baseline knowledge, all of the assumptions were correct, right.

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You didn't need to be no strudamis to figure out,

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you know, why someone went after Kirk and so there

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are a couple things in that right. As you said,

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everyone has written a piece on this, everyone has reacted

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to it. But I think there are a couple things

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really to examine when we're talking about this, which is first, okay,

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what can we learn from it? Obligatory it kind of

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provisos getting those out of the way. It probably won't

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surprise you, Pete. I wasn't a big Charlie Kirk listener,

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you know, he wasn't really in my feed. But from

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everything I've heard about and he was a good guy,

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a nice guy, and what I did see from him

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was refreshingly honest. He got made fun of, he got

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griped infamously over the past four or five years, and

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it seems as if well he took it to heart.

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He changed, he moved on certain issues. And in the

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last hours of his life, what was he advocating for, Well,

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he was going hammer and tongs for this poor Ukrainian girl,

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Arena who was savagely stabbed. He was sticking his neck out.

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He was doing something that other conservatives felt too cowardly

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to do. And I admire his consistency when talking about

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racial discrimination towards white people, something that is not particularly

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common in the conservative movement, so fair enough. Also, I

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realize you've got some kind of former libertarians in your audience.

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Ross Olbricht, he came out after Kirk was killed and

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wrote a very touching memorial piece where he said, look,

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Kirk was essential to getting him pardoned behind the scenes.

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Never came out and took credit for it. And again, look,

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those are two in instances, but I believe that they

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indicate at least a certain amount of this man's character.

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But let's let's go back to initial reactions. Well, I

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think the first thing I thought, and many others of

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us thought, especially on the radical right, is wait, really,

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Charlie Kirk, because from our perspective, well, Charlie Kirk is

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a moderate right. He holds milk toast opinions. From our

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perspective and in the grand scheme of things right, looking

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at the full political spectrum, that is quite true. He

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was not this kind of fire breather. He was not

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this sort of guy that you would expect to kind

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of stick in the libtard Craw. I hate to say it,

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I think the guy's hilarious, But if this had happened

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to Alex Jones, you kind of get it right. They've

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hated him for a really long time. If it happened

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to you know, Candice Owens or Marjorie Taylor Green, you

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could kind of get it right. Not approving of it,

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but just say, like, that's someone who says things routinely

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that are deliberately kind of poking the progressive sensibility right

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in the face. But then you think about it a

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little more and you're like, Okay, well, Charlie Kirk has

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the same politics that my grandma has, right, he has

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the same politics that the relatively apolitical, just kind of

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normal conservatives who I live around, they think the same

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thing that Charlie Kirk does. And we'll wait a minute.

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If he was a legitimate political target, if he was

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someone who it is morally excusable to kill, well, what

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does that mean about not only everyone who agrees with me,

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my grandma, the people around me, but also anyone to

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his right, anyone more extreme than that. And that was

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one of the things that I brought up in the

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piece is that one effectively this has shown you, listener,

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what they think of you. That you are announced, you're

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a fascist, you are a representative of the ultimate evil,

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which our resume is designed to fight, and so killing

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you is morally excusable. You see this in the reaction.

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Look the biggest, you know, most prominent TV hosts. Of

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course they have to do the respectable thing. They have

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to say. Of course, we condemn violence. You saw Obama

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say it, You saw you saw Joe Biden say it.

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Of course they do. It's what you know, soul as

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politicians do. But you go even two steps down to

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someone like Destiny, who Okay, sure he doesn't have a

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network television show, but let's be honest, he has a

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bigger viewership than just about any network television show. He's

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a multi millionaire, he's a very influential person in progressive politics.

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And does he do it? Does he condemn it? Of

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course he doesn't. He refuses to. He sets this sort

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of absurd standard of well, if Trump does exactly what

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I want only them, why condemn it? We know what

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he's doing there, right, we know what he's doing there.

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And then you go beyond that to normal people, right

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to progressive soldiers, to progressive doctors, nurses, teachers, and what

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do we see cheering it on? You know, I'm sure

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you've seen the kind of ghoulish displays, you know, mocking

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Kirk's death, and you realize these people they hate you,

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they hate your grandma, to be blunt about it, they

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hate normal conservatives, and they view them as acceptable targets

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for political violence. And that's a very disturbing thing. I

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think that's why, obviously, other than the dramatic, gruesome footage,

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other than the obvious sensation of a political assassination, why

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this is stuck with people, Because it's a realization that

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the sort of radio Rwanda propaganda we have heard for

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decades at this point, well, they took it seriously. It's

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sort of a miracle that this doesn't happen more, because

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again and again and again in every op ed, in

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every song, and every kind of awful Instagram infok graphic,

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the buried premises people like this are acceptable targets for

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political violence. What do you do you punch Nazis? What

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do you do you shoot Nazis? It's not a dramatic

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rhetorical jump, So that's a big part of it. I

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think another layer to this, obviously, is that well, if

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we're all Nazis, what's the point in playing or there,

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except like, why why do we play to them. Why

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do we accept their moral judge judgment? Why do we

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want their approval? Because if Charlie Kirk is worth getting shot, well, okay,

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isn't everyone? Why are you playing in their framework? Because

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the moment you depart from it, and even as mild

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away as Charlie Kirk does, well you're on the chopping block.

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So to be honest, why moderate? Why play to their sensibilities?

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Because but if you ever are a threat to them

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in even a minor way, well, they understand that you

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were an enemy. And from their perspective, which is not mine,

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what do you do with a political enemy? You shoot

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them in the neck. This is me reading their actions.

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I don't believe I'm acting unfairly putting words in their mouth.

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So what's another conclusion we can take from this? Well, honestly,

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as you can tell in the sort of pithy title,

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a discourse doesn't work because what did Kirk do? Well,

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Kirk did exactly what you were supposed to do when

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we were in high school civics class. How do you

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change people's ideas? How do you change the direction of

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the country, Well, you talk to people, you engage in

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the marketplace of ideas, you go to college campuses, hypothetically

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sit down for an open debate and throw ideas back

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and forth, see if you can convince them that you're right.

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And then as popular wisdom goes, people will look at

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that say yeah, that makes a lot of sense and

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adjust their voting habits accordingly. That's how you change things,

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That's how you do politics correctly. Well, how was Kirk

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rewarded for playing the game as he was supposed to?

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Did he win? Was Charlie Kirk the king of America?

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Did he turn the country around? Did he turn us

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back to a nineteen fifties version of America? No? He

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was shot. He was murdered in front of his children,

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and four K video extremely gruesome, I might add for

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engaging with the process as he was supposed to, doing

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everything how you were supposed to playing the game by

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the rules. And when we look at this in total,

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I should say, if you listen to Tucker Carlson talk

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about Charlie Kirk, and let's be honest, Charlie Kirk took

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a lot of flak for continuing his friendship with Tucker

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Carlson took a lot of flak for featuring him at

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his events, well, how did Tucker describe his friend. Well, one,

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he said that he wasn't particularly conservative, at least at

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the end of his career. He understood that con inc

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Had sold us all a bill of goods. So fair enough. Again,

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he has moved. But when I call him a good conservative,

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I don't mean to say that he is a house conservative,

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like he's owned, he's on the plantation. What I mean

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to say is he was playing the game by the

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rules as set out for all of us, doing exactly

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what you're supposed to do well, and again he was

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shot for it. So those are the big conclusions, at

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least initially, and I'll throw it back to you after

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this peet that I take from this, which is one,

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we're all Nazis, Two a discourse doesn't work, and three

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we were sold They told us the wrong rules to

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the game, right, that the correct way to do politics

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was never supposed to result in anything other than them waining.

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And obviously, you know a great deal of sympathy for

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Kirk's family. It seems as if his widow is a

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fiery woman who is going after these people looking for blood.

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She's already intonated that she is interested in suing Jimmy Kimmel,

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which good. I hope she takes him for everything he's worth.

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She said that she wants to continue his fight. And

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I think it's also important to note Charlie Kirk wasn't

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talking to us, so I think we miss a lot

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of his impact. But Kirk was incredibly popular with young people,

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and when we talk about the shift of young men

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to the right, you can't talk about that without mentioning Kirk.

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And look, I am not a conservative. I am not

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someone who really has a lot in common with conservatives

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like Kirk. But let's also be honest. We're all on

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a journey. None of us, at least not most of

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us started uber based out of nowhere, just popped out

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of the womb, you know, with Schopenhauer in one hand

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and you know, a bust of the Austrian painter in another.

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We started somewhere. And when I look at people like Kirk,

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I see someone who, in very good faith, was trying

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to move the Overton window to the right, was trying

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to normalize discussion about anti white discrimination, normalized discussions about

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things that just a few short years ago, three five

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years ago, would result in you being kicked out of

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polite society. And we've got to understand, Pete. Look, if

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you and I are the narrow end of the wedge,

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well there needs to be a wedge behind it. And

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that was men like Charlie Kirk. And look in sort

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of a dark sense, and forgive me if I'm out

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over my skis here, but there is sort of a

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dark irony in the name turning Point USA, because even

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if his organization during his life was not a turning point,

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his death certainly was. It feels as if one of

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those many before and after moments where obviously, you know,

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we were kind of joking about nine to eleven when

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we started rolling, but it's always well where were you?

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And it seems as if there was a before and

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after COVID the same thing, and with Kirk, it seems

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as if again there is a before and after a

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turning point, if you will. But I've been going for

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a while, Pete, I'll throw it back to you.

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Speaker 1: Well, let me ask you this check the well, I

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don't know if I even have a question. I just

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wanted to point something out. You know, when you talk

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about discourse being dead, I think we you and I

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both know that it's been dead for a long time,

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and when you you have to realize how far gone

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it is and how far how deeply it seeded into

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the regime, when people who celebrated this openly and publicly

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basically start losing their jobs. And I'm not talking about

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like the people who do the TikTok videos of them

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melting down just so that they can get views. I'm

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talking about the people who are genuinely like, well, you know,

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I just lost my job, and you know, I don't

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know what I don't know what's going on. These are

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people who believe that they are so right. When it

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comes to call it the zeitgeist. I know a lot

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of people just hate that term because it's been so

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fucked up. But according to you know, the spirit of

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the age, that of course I'm allowed to celebrate the

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death of a Nazi and nothing is going to happen

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to me. You know. It's like I know that I've

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gotten I know that I've gotten people this I'm speaking

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in the third person for them. I know that I've

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gotten people fired from their jobs because they have Republican views.

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But that's all right, that's the spirit of the age.

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That's what we are. How am I getting fired now

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for this. This is like I mean, and I mean,

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does this escalate because you see people getting fired? I

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mean you, I mean, at least from what I've heard,

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there are groups that are targeting right now because they

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just don't have the manpower to do it. Forty to

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fifty thousand people to have to lose their jobs.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. So look, if we were in an ideal situation,

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you know, if if we had Jesus Christ himself as

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the King of America, would we want cancel culture? Probably?

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Speaker 1: Not right.

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Speaker 2: It's not cool, as Sam Hide said, it's kind of scummy.

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But fundamentally, this didn't come out of nowhere. It's not

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like right wingers woke up in the Year of Our

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Lord twenty twenty five and said, hey, guess what, We're

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going to start calling people's jobs and getting them fired. Uh. One,

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we're really late in this. I use the example, you know,

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speaking on the good Old Boys, saying like, look, if

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you're if you're in a professional wrestling match and you're

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a jobber, right, you're the Brooklyn Brawler, and you know

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you're getting beat up, and then all of a sudden,

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you know you're wrestling a partner pulls out a switch

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blade and stabs you in the gut, like, wait a minute,

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this isn't what we were supposed to do. And you

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can choose two ways to react from that, which is

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one you can complain and say, well, this isn't the rules, right,

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this isn't governance, this isn't politics as I was taught

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in civics class. Or you can basically say like, all right,

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like we're going to have to fight. Then then this

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has become existential. You have threatened who I am what

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I am. And when we talk about that reaction, when

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we look at the left and the way they talk

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about Nazis and an existential threat to our democracy, that

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is implicitly a call for political violence, because what they

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are saying when they call you a Nazi is they're

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saying you are an existential threat to democracy, to me,

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to our nation. And look, you don't have to be

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a legal genius to figure out what you're supposed to

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do to an existential threat. Like if the crackhead with

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a switchblade comes out of the ally Ali is an

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existential threat to you, you are justified in mowing them down, right,

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that is what you do to protect your existence. If

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you will. And so if we find ourselves in that position,

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if we find ourselves in a position where we are

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being threatened and have been threatened first economically and now physically, well,

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to be honest, man, turn them out is fair play.

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We are we understand the stakes of this game. And

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I think that this is a very encouraging sign when

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we look at the right for my entire life really

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before Donald Trump, and I don't want to kind of

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give the man too much credit, but I think it's

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fair to say the right has been the designated loser

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of politics in America. That the game, the system as

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it was assumed that progressives would ultimately get what they want.

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The joke is right, Conservatives are merely progressives driving the

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speed limit. They would get in power, pull their foot

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off the gas, but keep going in the same direct action,

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and ultimately they would faithfully, again like you know a

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job or in wrestling, lose and take their pay day.

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Their pay day was whatever they could collect from Red America.

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That was what they got for playing. The mark for

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getting beat up is they got to, you know, live

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out their life comfortably off of the spoils of the

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other parts of America. Well, look if you're going to

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actually turn that around if you say, no, we're not

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playing to collect the consolation money after we lose, but

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we're playing to win. You've got to understand this becomes

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an actual fight then, right, this becomes this becomes a

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real wrestling match, right, not one with you know, shoots

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and ladders and you know a fire extinguisher. It's an

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actual fight, and that, I think is what is what

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is happening in politics. So we look at this, right,

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we look at cancel culture and we say, well, guess

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what we can do that too, And some of it

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is nakedly political. Right, you're going to take a hit

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for this. You took one of our guys. We're going

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to take you out. Another element of this that can't

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be overstated is I don't actually want someone who thinks

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it's cool to dance on someone's grave, operating on me,

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enforcing the law, teaching my kids, even making my food. Like, really,

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do you trust someone who is that cracked, who is

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that morally depraved, to handle your sandwich? It is quite literally,

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and you may have heard this phrase before. You may

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have freedom of speech, but you don't have freedom from consequences. Sorry,

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someone decided that was a cool way to organize society.

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Someone decided that's what we were going to do. We

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were going to bring a shank to this match. And

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guess what. As you know many have said in condemning

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Charlie Kirk, you live by the sword, you die by

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the sword. And in an ideal society, in a society

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that had a certain element of moral consensus, in a

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society that had a culture that was in some way unified,

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we probably wouldn't need to do this. But here's where

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we are. Someone some half of politics decided we were

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going to play revolution. And this is the consequences of

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those actions. And when I say escalate, I'm not one

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of these you know, boogaloo seventeen seventy six will commence

385
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again civil war types. But I think you'd have to

386
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be an idiot to look at American politics and say,

387
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I think things are going to cool down in the

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foreseeable future. I think we're going to return to normal.

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I think it's going to be just like it was,

390
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you know, right after the Cold War ended. Things are

391
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just gonna be hunky door like. Clearly not things are

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heating up. And let's not forget that before you know

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Kirk was killed, there was another example of that Ukrainian

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refugee arena. Well, when she was killed, what was the reaction.

395
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Was it just that charge Kirk was such an execrable

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political figure who was so hated that people wanted to

397
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dance on his grave. No, this poor Ukrainian woman was

398
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stabbed for the crime of being white. And what did

399
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we see, effectively the exact same response, which is either

400
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I don't care or good I got a white girl.

401
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To quote aspiring astrophysicist De Carlos.

402
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Speaker 1: Yeah, the uh what people? I don't think what people

403
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are realizing? They don't the more so arena than Charlie,

404
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or maybe maybe equally, but at least there is a

405
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picture of it. The picture of that. Is it a

406
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subway car? Is it a tram? What the hell is

407
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it that she's in?

408
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Speaker 2: They said it was like light rail, So I guess

409
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like a street car. I don't know.

410
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Speaker 1: Okay, so light rail, let's call it light rail. You

411
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see a picture of who she surrounded by, and what

412
00:25:01,960 --> 00:25:04,519
you realize is that the people who could have came

413
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to her aid all look like the person who perpetrated this.

414
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And you realize that the people who could have come

415
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to her aid didn't identify with her. They identified with

416
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the guy who did it. So not only do you

417
00:25:21,519 --> 00:25:25,599
have this group of what Thomas calls you know, and

418
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I'm leaving the whole Israel thing out of this because

419
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I'm gonna need to see a whole bunch more evidence,

420
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you know, I'm before before I go down that road.

421
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And if I'm saying that, yeah, but when.

422
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Speaker 2: You're saying infamous fan of Israel quanonas.

423
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Speaker 1: Yes, yes, yes. What Thomas said last night when we

424
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recorded the episode we dropped last night was basically, you

425
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have a group of people who everything surrounds their genitals.

426
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That's what the gay lobby, the trans lobby, all these people,

427
00:26:05,759 --> 00:26:09,960
it's just the abortion lobby. It all is around their

428
00:26:10,039 --> 00:26:13,200
genitals and it has to do with sex, and they're

429
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willing to kill people who say, you know, it shouldn't

430
00:26:16,640 --> 00:26:19,359
be all about that. There's actually some other things out

431
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there that might be important. Then you have a whole

432
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nother group that we see who it's all about their identity,

433
00:26:26,119 --> 00:26:30,920
it's all about their skin color, and it's all about, hey,

434
00:26:30,960 --> 00:26:33,400
that guy looks like me. He may have just done

435
00:26:33,480 --> 00:26:37,000
something really messed up. He may even just killed that girl.

436
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But I'm not stepping into help. I'm not stepping into

437
00:26:40,839 --> 00:26:47,599
help at least until it's too late. And the question is,

438
00:26:48,319 --> 00:26:51,759
when you see Charlie getting killed and you see Arena

439
00:26:51,799 --> 00:26:55,640
getting killed like that, and you can focus on two

440
00:26:55,720 --> 00:26:59,640
groups within your society, how do you go forward as

441
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a society when everybody when when people are literal enemies,

442
00:27:05,119 --> 00:27:07,519
when they are literal enemies who are willing to not

443
00:27:07,559 --> 00:27:12,200
only kill, but to you have a group around you

444
00:27:12,319 --> 00:27:15,359
that is going to that is going to surround you

445
00:27:15,400 --> 00:27:20,079
and go, yeah, you know that person, the system failed

446
00:27:20,079 --> 00:27:24,640
that person. You know it's because of four hundred years

447
00:27:24,680 --> 00:27:28,839
of slavery and they, I mean, how there's no way

448
00:27:28,880 --> 00:27:31,839
to go forward. If there's anything that we've learned in

449
00:27:31,880 --> 00:27:37,000
the last ten days, it's that we have warring factions

450
00:27:37,519 --> 00:27:42,279
in this country who are literally willing to kill and

451
00:27:43,240 --> 00:27:46,559
nobody's going to stop them because they have radical in

452
00:27:46,720 --> 00:27:52,119
group preference and they're in groups are numerous and in

453
00:27:52,200 --> 00:27:54,279
some cases politically powerful.

454
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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that when we talk about why the

455
00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:06,480
Conservatives are ultimately losers, it's because they see a path

456
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forward of using the established rules of a functional version

457
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of our system to fix the current problems. They assume

458
00:28:17,200 --> 00:28:20,920
that well, if we simply act like things worked, they

459
00:28:20,960 --> 00:28:24,920
will start working again. It's really not the case. This

460
00:28:24,960 --> 00:28:27,599
is actually, weirdly enough, a problem you see both with

461
00:28:27,640 --> 00:28:31,440
people who are into peaceful parenting and libertarians is that

462
00:28:31,480 --> 00:28:34,519
they seek to act as if their desired end state

463
00:28:34,720 --> 00:28:38,839
is already achieved. Well, I'll act like I live in

464
00:28:38,880 --> 00:28:43,440
a high trust society that will produce those results. Clearly

465
00:28:43,480 --> 00:28:46,599
that is not the case. And that's the problem when

466
00:28:46,599 --> 00:28:51,279
you have no moral consensus where there are two diametrically

467
00:28:51,279 --> 00:28:54,920
opposed factions. And this is really what we see when

468
00:28:54,960 --> 00:28:59,519
we talk about politics, like what is capital p politics, Well,

469
00:28:59,720 --> 00:29:03,559
it's when you have two groups where they cannot both

470
00:29:03,680 --> 00:29:07,079
live life as they see fit. The classic example I

471
00:29:07,079 --> 00:29:10,880
stole this from Wade Stotts, who's a very talented rhetortician.

472
00:29:11,440 --> 00:29:14,640
He talks about if you're Amish and a gay land

473
00:29:14,640 --> 00:29:19,240
developer wants to put in, you know, a gay club

474
00:29:19,240 --> 00:29:21,720
in the middle of your community, Well, all of a sudden,

475
00:29:21,720 --> 00:29:24,920
you have politics. Those are mutually incompatible goals. You cannot

476
00:29:25,000 --> 00:29:28,720
both have an amish community and a thriving gay nightclub. Right,

477
00:29:28,799 --> 00:29:31,319
one must give. And it's a silly example, You know,

478
00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:34,359
I bring it up because it gets laughs. But either way,

479
00:29:34,519 --> 00:29:36,759
that's what we have on a societal level, that you

480
00:29:36,839 --> 00:29:42,359
cannot have both of these visions. And look, that's been

481
00:29:42,400 --> 00:29:45,960
the case for a while. Let's be honest. The two

482
00:29:46,079 --> 00:29:48,799
stories of America that you can read about in Yarvin

483
00:29:48,839 --> 00:29:53,400
have existed for a very long time. But if you

484
00:29:53,519 --> 00:29:57,720
have that conflict, but it is being sort of worked

485
00:29:57,759 --> 00:30:03,119
out between a winner and a paid off loser, well, okay,

486
00:30:03,160 --> 00:30:06,119
even if those two parties don't technically agree on the

487
00:30:06,119 --> 00:30:09,200
ground level, it doesn't really matter. There's no real struggle

488
00:30:09,279 --> 00:30:12,880
for control, simply a debate over how long it takes

489
00:30:12,920 --> 00:30:16,000
for one side to win. But the moment that the

490
00:30:16,039 --> 00:30:18,839
loser looks around and says, well, honestly, man, like, why

491
00:30:19,240 --> 00:30:21,799
do would I keep taking this deal? You're going to

492
00:30:21,880 --> 00:30:24,119
drive me to the end of my rope and leave

493
00:30:24,160 --> 00:30:27,559
you with nothing. I think I'd like to win for once. Well,

494
00:30:28,400 --> 00:30:30,759
all of a sudden, that becomes a real deal conflict.

495
00:30:31,240 --> 00:30:33,839
And I think that's what we're seeing is people are realizing,

496
00:30:33,960 --> 00:30:37,640
especially normal conservative people, that the terms of the game

497
00:30:37,720 --> 00:30:40,720
are not simply the kind of negotiated defeat they are

498
00:30:41,119 --> 00:30:44,319
used to. But it is a genuine existential struggle. It

499
00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:48,440
is genuinely if we don't win, we will be treated

500
00:30:48,559 --> 00:30:51,359
like this. This is how this is what our life

501
00:30:51,400 --> 00:30:54,720
will be. We will not be They will not extend

502
00:30:54,839 --> 00:31:00,720
the same gracious attitude that conservatives had often in victory

503
00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:03,480
quote unquote victory if you will. And so I think

504
00:31:03,480 --> 00:31:05,599
that's why so many people are disturbed by this as

505
00:31:05,640 --> 00:31:09,400
they are realizing the stakes of politics. And look, it

506
00:31:09,440 --> 00:31:11,759
didn't have to be like this. It was a it

507
00:31:11,799 --> 00:31:13,720
was a series of choices. It was a series of

508
00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:18,200
human actions that led to this situation. But looking at

509
00:31:18,200 --> 00:31:20,720
the situation, looking at the situation, the state of play

510
00:31:20,759 --> 00:31:24,519
as it is, you're one hundred percent right, there is

511
00:31:24,640 --> 00:31:27,960
no compromise on this. One side will have to be defeated.

512
00:31:28,480 --> 00:31:30,759
And when I look at people like is Stephen Miller,

513
00:31:31,720 --> 00:31:35,000
who is is impressive to cram so much rage into

514
00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:39,119
such a small man, going just hard in the paint, saying,

515
00:31:39,200 --> 00:31:42,000
you know, the West must be saved. Burn these people

516
00:31:42,039 --> 00:31:44,880
to the ground, you know, going after these groups with

517
00:31:44,960 --> 00:31:49,160
rico charges, basically saying we will prosecute these people to

518
00:31:49,200 --> 00:31:52,480
the fullest extent of the law. I see someone who

519
00:31:52,519 --> 00:31:55,880
realizes what time it is I see someone who realizes

520
00:31:55,920 --> 00:32:00,519
the threat that this sort of violence presents to to

521
00:32:00,559 --> 00:32:03,279
be blunt about it. And on the other hand, if

522
00:32:03,279 --> 00:32:06,480
we want to talk about old the old style conservatives,

523
00:32:06,519 --> 00:32:10,000
the beautiful losers, as Francis would describe them, well, there

524
00:32:10,000 --> 00:32:12,519
are a few better examples than someone like Bondie, right,

525
00:32:12,559 --> 00:32:15,960
someone who is saying just this kind of incoherent nonsense

526
00:32:15,960 --> 00:32:19,039
about hate speech and how we really want to secure

527
00:32:19,039 --> 00:32:23,279
people's rights to printing out photos of Charlie Kirk. It's like, well,

528
00:32:23,279 --> 00:32:25,880
this is one a horrible misdirection. This is really not

529
00:32:25,920 --> 00:32:29,960
what anyone cares about. But also you're missing the stakes

530
00:32:29,960 --> 00:32:32,680
of this game. You're missing that this is not simply

531
00:32:32,960 --> 00:32:36,079
my ability to go to Pop Copy and demand they

532
00:32:36,119 --> 00:32:40,119
print whatever I want. But this is a blow struck

533
00:32:40,200 --> 00:32:43,359
at the core of what it means to be, let's

534
00:32:43,359 --> 00:32:47,559
be honest, a sovereign niche. If you do not have

535
00:32:47,640 --> 00:32:50,960
the monopoly on violence, if you cannot say extra judicial

536
00:32:51,039 --> 00:32:55,400
killings are inappropriate, they are sanctioned, they will be pursued

537
00:32:55,440 --> 00:32:58,440
to the end degree or are you really a government anymore?

538
00:32:58,920 --> 00:33:02,359
And to me, I think that those two figures signal

539
00:33:02,440 --> 00:33:05,920
the divide between those who realize that they are in

540
00:33:05,960 --> 00:33:11,119
a real deal political capital p conflict, or those who

541
00:33:11,119 --> 00:33:15,480
want to go back to kind of sleepy, humdrum version

542
00:33:15,519 --> 00:33:20,160
of DC politics where conservatives, where right wingers simply bide

543
00:33:20,200 --> 00:33:23,839
their time until they're out of power, raking in donations

544
00:33:23,839 --> 00:33:29,279
from from flyover America and fiddling while Rome burns.

545
00:33:30,680 --> 00:33:37,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, the whole thing, would Bondy really just that triggered me.

546
00:33:37,680 --> 00:33:44,559
It triggered thoughts in my mind about just how how different,

547
00:33:44,839 --> 00:33:48,880
how many different factions you have, even within people calling

548
00:33:48,920 --> 00:33:52,119
themselves maga. You know, I made the point on Twitter

549
00:33:52,240 --> 00:33:56,079
today that the Bondy puts hell, I don't want to

550
00:33:56,119 --> 00:33:58,559
take this in an opposite direction and just point out

551
00:33:58,599 --> 00:34:01,119
how out of the game a lot of people are.

552
00:34:01,559 --> 00:34:06,079
The Bondi and Patel are clearly Desantus loyalists anything you

553
00:34:06,119 --> 00:34:09,000
could see, because they it seems like they're working to

554
00:34:09,119 --> 00:34:12,199
destroy the Trump White House. And yeah, I also make

555
00:34:12,239 --> 00:34:17,159
the point that Desantus is obviously a big friend of Israel,

556
00:34:17,639 --> 00:34:20,320
and then someone says, well so is Donald Trump. It's like, yeah,

557
00:34:20,320 --> 00:34:23,280
there can't be factions. It's not like there could be

558
00:34:23,320 --> 00:34:27,079
actually factions within those things working against each other. You know,

559
00:34:27,199 --> 00:34:30,320
like there could be some that have certain interests because

560
00:34:31,239 --> 00:34:35,320
ignoring Stephen Miller, you know that his background and everything,

561
00:34:35,599 --> 00:34:38,159
he seems to be the most base person out there

562
00:34:38,199 --> 00:34:42,440
who's saying the right things, who's in in the administration,

563
00:34:43,199 --> 00:34:52,599
and you're right, Miller is speaking the language of what

564
00:34:52,840 --> 00:34:56,280
Sam Hide said. And Sam Hyde, you know, is another

565
00:34:56,360 --> 00:34:59,440
one who I can't believe that Thomas had to address

566
00:34:59,480 --> 00:35:01,519
this last night that there are people who were saying

567
00:35:01,559 --> 00:35:06,280
that Sam Hyde was not sincere in his sentiment towards

568
00:35:06,360 --> 00:35:11,239
Charlie Kirk, like that his tears were insincere. It's like,

569
00:35:13,159 --> 00:35:17,639
if you think that you really shouldn't have anything to

570
00:35:17,679 --> 00:35:21,519
do with politics, you've either been doing this too long

571
00:35:22,000 --> 00:35:26,400
and you've just you've lost your you've lost your humanity,

572
00:35:26,599 --> 00:35:29,800
or you you know, we live in the age of

573
00:35:29,840 --> 00:35:32,440
total politics. There are people who are paying attention to

574
00:35:32,440 --> 00:35:36,119
politics who don't have don't have the temperament for it,

575
00:35:36,159 --> 00:35:38,800
don't have they don't have the constitution for it. And

576
00:35:39,400 --> 00:35:42,440
that goes for people who've been talking about commenting on

577
00:35:42,519 --> 00:35:46,119
politics for a really, really long time, like people on

578
00:35:46,199 --> 00:35:49,280
our side of the Great Divide who celebrated Charlie Kirk's

579
00:35:49,320 --> 00:35:53,519
death because Israel, because that's the only thing that they

580
00:35:53,519 --> 00:35:57,559
can concentrate on. That is there one thing that they

581
00:35:57,559 --> 00:36:00,880
don't that they I'm going to go down a path.

582
00:36:01,199 --> 00:36:06,039
But the what Sam Hyde said was, and when he

583
00:36:06,119 --> 00:36:09,119
said it, I agreed with him. You literally have like

584
00:36:09,159 --> 00:36:15,280
two weeks of momentum and if there isn't if steps

585
00:36:15,320 --> 00:36:22,199
aren't taken to basically go full And I hate to

586
00:36:22,199 --> 00:36:25,239
say this because it was a failure, you know, rooting

587
00:36:25,239 --> 00:36:31,039
out terrorist cells like Iraq or Afghanistan here at home,

588
00:36:31,719 --> 00:36:35,800
where there are people who know where they are. Local

589
00:36:35,880 --> 00:36:38,239
law enforcement knows where these people are, knows where they're

590
00:36:38,239 --> 00:36:40,679
hold up. If they're not willing to go and do that,

591
00:36:40,719 --> 00:36:42,880
and if you're not willing to see anything within the

592
00:36:42,920 --> 00:36:49,000
next two weeks, even if it doesn't accomplish anything long term,

593
00:36:49,199 --> 00:36:54,400
it's pretty much done. And this administration is pretty much,

594
00:36:54,800 --> 00:36:57,239
in my opinion, to be ignored. And you know, maybe

595
00:36:57,239 --> 00:36:59,719
there's some people in the administration who are doing good work,

596
00:37:00,039 --> 00:37:03,000
but the administration as a whole, there's no real points

597
00:37:03,000 --> 00:37:05,360
to support it, to support anything they're doing.

598
00:37:07,000 --> 00:37:14,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that there, I get it right. A

599
00:37:14,599 --> 00:37:17,320
Rico case takes a long time to put together one

600
00:37:17,400 --> 00:37:22,960
hundred percent understand but also from my perspective, I feel

601
00:37:23,000 --> 00:37:26,239
like I've given the Trump presidency the benefit of the

602
00:37:26,320 --> 00:37:30,320
doubt a lot. I'm not one of these reflective Trump haters,

603
00:37:31,000 --> 00:37:33,559
and so in a situation like this, where it is

604
00:37:33,599 --> 00:37:39,039
a I mean, as awful as the event is, it

605
00:37:39,119 --> 00:37:43,119
is about the best political opportunity you could hope for

606
00:37:43,760 --> 00:37:46,079
being given to you on a silver platter, where it's

607
00:37:46,159 --> 00:37:53,360
Trump's would be gold in that case if you fumble that, look, man,

608
00:37:53,360 --> 00:37:56,679
I'm not going to give you, as we did in Charlotte,

609
00:37:57,039 --> 00:38:02,559
your fifteenth chance. You know, sorry, man, I could notice

610
00:38:02,559 --> 00:38:05,880
a pattern, and it's especially frustrating for a man like

611
00:38:05,920 --> 00:38:08,760
Donald Trump, who sort of built his media reputation on

612
00:38:09,440 --> 00:38:12,119
firing the wrong people and hiring the good ones, for

613
00:38:12,239 --> 00:38:17,280
him to be so unwilling to fire these incompetent members

614
00:38:17,320 --> 00:38:20,639
of his own cabinet, right BONDI, who has been largely

615
00:38:21,000 --> 00:38:24,519
shooting herself in the foot for oh, I don't know

616
00:38:24,800 --> 00:38:27,400
about the last nine months, just over and over and

617
00:38:27,440 --> 00:38:32,239
over again. At a certain point, I'm not being cynical

618
00:38:32,280 --> 00:38:34,559
when I say that this seems like, if you were

619
00:38:34,599 --> 00:38:37,079
not taking an action, this is part of the plant.

620
00:38:37,280 --> 00:38:40,880
From your perspective, this is a feature, not a bug.

621
00:38:42,159 --> 00:38:46,760
When we look at these organizations, we've understood people like

622
00:38:46,800 --> 00:38:49,960
you and I. I'd also recommend the work of Mike Shelby.

623
00:38:50,159 --> 00:38:54,880
You can find him on Twitter, who tracks Antifa. These

624
00:38:55,000 --> 00:38:57,880
organizations have been around for a very long time. They've

625
00:38:58,000 --> 00:39:01,760
organized in public on places like red it around, you know,

626
00:39:01,800 --> 00:39:05,840
the SRA, the Socialist Rifle Association, the John Brown Gun Club,

627
00:39:06,280 --> 00:39:10,880
and others, but also on Discord, which, again, if we're

628
00:39:10,880 --> 00:39:16,079
talking about living in the greatest you know, digital panopticon

629
00:39:16,079 --> 00:39:18,960
the world has ever seen. The fact the administration cannot

630
00:39:18,960 --> 00:39:22,679
do something to discourse a discord rather is absurd. So

631
00:39:22,760 --> 00:39:26,679
let's examine discord. A lot of people use it. It's

632
00:39:26,679 --> 00:39:30,360
sort of ubiquitous as a chat app. When I was

633
00:39:30,360 --> 00:39:32,880
in high school. Is the way that you organize playing

634
00:39:32,920 --> 00:39:35,599
games with your friends. It's still predominantly what it's used for,

635
00:39:36,000 --> 00:39:38,119
but for those who aren't familiar, it lets you have

636
00:39:38,239 --> 00:39:41,400
your own private group chat on a server, right, you

637
00:39:41,440 --> 00:39:45,199
can make channels. People use it for work. Most people

638
00:39:45,320 --> 00:39:47,519
just use it to hang out. It has sort of

639
00:39:47,559 --> 00:39:50,800
taken over what forums were in a previous version of

640
00:39:50,800 --> 00:39:56,159
the Internet. And also in addition to that, Discord is

641
00:39:56,800 --> 00:40:02,199
the center of not trying to be grotesque here, but

642
00:40:02,320 --> 00:40:05,280
of child exploitation and grooming on the internet, so much

643
00:40:05,320 --> 00:40:09,360
so that a Discord moderator for people under about thirty

644
00:40:09,440 --> 00:40:14,519
is shorthand for a pedophile is It's almost a hackneyed

645
00:40:14,559 --> 00:40:17,599
joke at this point, every joke that you know, my

646
00:40:17,719 --> 00:40:21,199
parents' generation made about Catholic priests, their children are making

647
00:40:21,239 --> 00:40:23,960
about people who spend a lot of time on Discord.

648
00:40:24,679 --> 00:40:27,519
And in addition to that, obviously you have the you know,

649
00:40:27,599 --> 00:40:31,079
the grotesque crimes against children, but you also have a

650
00:40:31,159 --> 00:40:33,199
large portion of the trans community. I realized that as

651
00:40:33,239 --> 00:40:35,320
a Venn diagram that might just be one circle. But

652
00:40:35,360 --> 00:40:37,719
point is, there's a lot of trans stuff that goes

653
00:40:37,719 --> 00:40:42,079
on there, much of it connected to grooming. But also

654
00:40:42,719 --> 00:40:47,320
these antifook groups, right, these violent terrorist organizations, many of

655
00:40:47,360 --> 00:40:51,000
whom are doing things that are incidentally very illegal anyway,

656
00:40:51,639 --> 00:40:55,320
And well, what is to be done? It seems as

657
00:40:55,360 --> 00:40:59,960
if the administration, the previous administration, has largely done absolutely

658
00:41:00,119 --> 00:41:04,559
nothing about Discord. And look, you could say, well, it's

659
00:41:04,599 --> 00:41:07,000
not really Discord's fault. Look at all the crimes that

660
00:41:07,039 --> 00:41:09,480
are planned over the phone. Maybe they just don't know,

661
00:41:10,119 --> 00:41:13,599
all right, Well, how does Discord treat the problems they

662
00:41:13,599 --> 00:41:16,800
do care about? For instance, dangerous right wingers. Are you

663
00:41:16,920 --> 00:41:19,199
in a private group chat with your friends dropping the

664
00:41:19,199 --> 00:41:23,440
hard r instant ban You're done forever? Are you organizing

665
00:41:23,480 --> 00:41:26,679
a right wing event? Well, just mysteriously accidentally, we didn't

666
00:41:26,719 --> 00:41:29,400
do it on purpose. All of your names and identities

667
00:41:29,400 --> 00:41:32,000
have been linked to the press. So they do have

668
00:41:32,039 --> 00:41:34,320
the ability to do that. They do have the ability

669
00:41:34,360 --> 00:41:37,679
to act and to take things down or to forward

670
00:41:37,719 --> 00:41:40,920
them to the authorities. And so again, even if it

671
00:41:41,039 --> 00:41:45,360
was not deliberately endorsed, was not planned by the staff

672
00:41:45,400 --> 00:41:50,159
of Discord, well, it certainly has their tacit approval because

673
00:41:50,239 --> 00:41:53,119
we've seen that they can act when something violates their

674
00:41:53,119 --> 00:41:56,440
internal moral code, and they have not acted in this

675
00:41:56,559 --> 00:41:59,840
case or in many others. They have not acted against

676
00:41:59,840 --> 00:42:03,800
the you know, the shadowy you know Discord groups connected

677
00:42:03,840 --> 00:42:08,079
to you know, passing around like gore and stuff films

678
00:42:08,159 --> 00:42:10,559
or you know, footage of child sexual abuse, any of these,

679
00:42:10,719 --> 00:42:13,760
you know, horrible things. But when our friend Thomas creates

680
00:42:13,760 --> 00:42:17,320
a discord, it's down in two days. And look, you know,

681
00:42:17,360 --> 00:42:20,079
Thomas's fans can be a bit rowdy, but I doubt

682
00:42:20,079 --> 00:42:24,000
they're doing anything like that. Again, it's clear that this

683
00:42:24,239 --> 00:42:28,440
is another institution which is completely and totally ideologically captured.

684
00:42:28,679 --> 00:42:30,679
And if you are the regime, if you are the president,

685
00:42:30,679 --> 00:42:32,639
if you are the most powerful man in the world,

686
00:42:33,079 --> 00:42:35,880
and you allow a company, even a big company, to

687
00:42:35,960 --> 00:42:39,320
thumb their nose at you and to say no, I'm

688
00:42:39,360 --> 00:42:43,039
not gonna do anything about it. No, the terrorists, the

689
00:42:43,559 --> 00:42:49,119
violent lunatics killing your young fathers in public, I'm not

690
00:42:49,119 --> 00:42:51,800
gonna do anything about that. Well, are you really president?

691
00:42:52,159 --> 00:42:55,559
And it seems as if no, because you don't have

692
00:42:56,079 --> 00:43:00,639
the monopoly on forced you don't have control. And again,

693
00:43:01,039 --> 00:43:04,920
I think it's important to say, when we're talking about retribution,

694
00:43:07,079 --> 00:43:09,719
we're not talking about violence, right, We're not saying that

695
00:43:09,760 --> 00:43:12,880
people who wish death on Charlie Kirk should be you know,

696
00:43:12,960 --> 00:43:16,159
dragged out into an alley and beaten. We'll go with that.

697
00:43:16,639 --> 00:43:19,400
We're not saying that because look, let's draw a distinction

698
00:43:19,559 --> 00:43:25,199
between force and violence. Violence is basically force in a

699
00:43:25,239 --> 00:43:28,199
state of failure. If you have control, you don't need

700
00:43:28,239 --> 00:43:31,719
to get violent. Sure, ultimately, you know, if someone is convicted,

701
00:43:31,719 --> 00:43:34,719
there may be you know, a form of corporal punishment.

702
00:43:34,960 --> 00:43:38,079
That's not what we're talking about here, effectively, what we

703
00:43:38,119 --> 00:43:41,719
are asking for what ought to be done. The just

704
00:43:41,840 --> 00:43:46,079
thing to do is for these people to meet righteous authority,

705
00:43:46,559 --> 00:43:51,400
to meet the consequences for their actions, either in coordinating

706
00:43:51,440 --> 00:43:54,800
for this murder, either in celebrating this murder, or in

707
00:43:54,960 --> 00:43:57,039
when I think this is very important, I included this

708
00:43:57,079 --> 00:44:01,000
in my piece for creating the conditions for creating the

709
00:44:01,559 --> 00:44:05,639
rhetoric which led to this climate of violence, which led

710
00:44:05,679 --> 00:44:08,920
to someone feeling that Charlie Kirk was a fascist, that

711
00:44:09,000 --> 00:44:13,559
Charlie Kirk was so dangerous to his community of button

712
00:44:13,599 --> 00:44:16,159
married freaks that he needed to be shot with a rifle.

713
00:44:16,679 --> 00:44:20,280
And again, this is not this is not you know,

714
00:44:20,360 --> 00:44:23,840
pie in the sky thinking. We're not asking for something

715
00:44:23,840 --> 00:44:26,000
that hasn't been done, We're not asking for something that

716
00:44:26,119 --> 00:44:30,960
isn't reasonable. What we're asking for is simple justice, the

717
00:44:31,239 --> 00:44:34,599
kind of justice that rulers from time in memoriam have understood,

718
00:44:34,920 --> 00:44:36,880
which is that if you are to be in control,

719
00:44:37,639 --> 00:44:42,599
you must be the final decision maker, you must have

720
00:44:42,679 --> 00:44:45,639
the monopoly on violence. And sadly enough, it seems as

721
00:44:45,639 --> 00:44:48,760
if the administration, it seems as if Trump is unwilling

722
00:44:48,880 --> 00:44:52,480
to stand up and accept that responsibility. My only hope

723
00:44:52,519 --> 00:44:55,039
is that he changes his mind.

724
00:44:56,440 --> 00:45:00,639
Speaker 1: Well, not only does not going after the disco, going

725
00:45:00,679 --> 00:45:10,159
after Discord and their servers and these people specifically, Yeah,

726
00:45:10,199 --> 00:45:13,599
what it does is it lends them legitimacy. In their

727
00:45:13,639 --> 00:45:18,719
own minds. They they're like, oh, well, these people who

728
00:45:19,000 --> 00:45:22,440
these geniuses who started this platform, you know, and who

729
00:45:22,440 --> 00:45:26,880
are becoming rich off of it, they're protecting us from

730
00:45:27,039 --> 00:45:32,920
the government. And in their ssri addult freak show minds

731
00:45:34,239 --> 00:45:39,199
they're like, oh, wow, no, because this because these private

732
00:45:39,199 --> 00:45:42,079
people have here, this private business which they're not supposed

733
00:45:42,119 --> 00:45:47,000
to like, protects us and is giving us cover. That

734
00:45:47,119 --> 00:45:50,320
means we're the good guys. That means we're the legitimate

735
00:45:50,360 --> 00:45:56,400
ones and everyone else isn't. And that is people don't.

736
00:45:56,679 --> 00:46:02,159
People don't understand that how important legitimacy is in the

737
00:46:02,239 --> 00:46:10,159
minds of everyone that's alive. People you instinctively still you

738
00:46:10,239 --> 00:46:14,400
hear something, You hear about a story somewhere, and you're like, Okay,

739
00:46:14,440 --> 00:46:17,880
where's a good where's a legitimate source that I can

740
00:46:17,920 --> 00:46:21,119
get this from, you know, And that's just it's what

741
00:46:21,159 --> 00:46:24,440
we look for. And people have no idea that by

742
00:46:24,599 --> 00:46:28,360
not taking down, by not taking down these networks, not

743
00:46:28,400 --> 00:46:30,519
only discord by not taking down the networks, by not

744
00:46:30,519 --> 00:46:33,199
taking down anti fib By not taking down at this point,

745
00:46:33,239 --> 00:46:36,320
looks like the DSA is involved. By not taking them down,

746
00:46:36,360 --> 00:46:41,320
you're just legitimizing them, and their members feel more legitimized

747
00:46:41,519 --> 00:46:44,360
by it. Now they could become radicalized if you take

748
00:46:44,400 --> 00:46:46,880
it down. But I mean, how much more radical can

749
00:46:46,920 --> 00:46:49,159
they get than they are now? They're fucking shooting people.

750
00:46:50,000 --> 00:46:53,719
Speaker 2: Well, I think it's important to mention that obviously this

751
00:46:53,800 --> 00:46:57,360
is a dramatic escalation in violence. But you know, let's

752
00:46:57,360 --> 00:47:00,079
look back what six weeks ago to the ambush on

753
00:47:00,119 --> 00:47:05,400
an ice facility in Texas where ten Antifoo aligned shooters

754
00:47:05,440 --> 00:47:09,119
basically set up an ambush and a parking lot. I

755
00:47:09,280 --> 00:47:12,320
was talking to our mutual friend Clay about this, and

756
00:47:12,360 --> 00:47:16,199
he said it was about as perfectly planned not executed

757
00:47:16,400 --> 00:47:18,519
as you could hope for. You know, in a situation

758
00:47:18,559 --> 00:47:21,840
where you have rifles, you have optics, and you're attacking

759
00:47:21,880 --> 00:47:24,920
guys with handguns. Well, they stuck them in the middle

760
00:47:24,960 --> 00:47:27,880
of a brightly lit parking lot at night and sat

761
00:47:27,920 --> 00:47:30,960
one hundred yards away, right too far to reliably hit

762
00:47:31,079 --> 00:47:34,639
under pressure with a handgun unless you're really talented. Where

763
00:47:34,679 --> 00:47:37,360
you have a perfect rest, you can see them, they

764
00:47:37,360 --> 00:47:41,039
can't see you. You've got ten people there. Okay, fair enough.

765
00:47:41,159 --> 00:47:43,239
They weren't that good at it, you know, they hit

766
00:47:43,280 --> 00:47:46,079
one guy, didn't kill him, and then seems to have

767
00:47:46,119 --> 00:47:49,199
lost their nerve, ran off and all got captured. Okay,

768
00:47:49,199 --> 00:47:51,079
so it wasn't the most successful thing in the world.

769
00:47:51,320 --> 00:47:55,119
But that is a major escalation from anything we'd seen previously,

770
00:47:55,519 --> 00:47:57,719
you know, going from you know, throwing a piss bottle

771
00:47:57,719 --> 00:48:00,519
at a cop or maybe a molotav at a platation

772
00:48:01,039 --> 00:48:04,239
up to you, a ten person l shaped ambush like

773
00:48:04,960 --> 00:48:09,880
guess what, bucco, we're in Vietnam. Like, that's a major escalation. Similarly,

774
00:48:09,960 --> 00:48:12,280
when we're talking about legitimacy, there are a couple things here,

775
00:48:12,559 --> 00:48:14,400
which is one and I think Hyde made this point,

776
00:48:14,519 --> 00:48:17,559
and Hyde's show on this was excellent. I consider it

777
00:48:17,639 --> 00:48:21,800
required viewing for any of our guys. I am a

778
00:48:21,840 --> 00:48:23,559
fan of his stuff and have been for a long time.

779
00:48:23,559 --> 00:48:26,079
But even if you aren't, check this out. It's hided

780
00:48:26,119 --> 00:48:29,239
as best unusually serious and very poignant. But one of

781
00:48:29,280 --> 00:48:32,960
the things he was talking about is that, look, obviously

782
00:48:33,039 --> 00:48:35,360
the person who did this needs to be punished. And

783
00:48:36,000 --> 00:48:37,920
after I make this point, I'll return to why I

784
00:48:37,920 --> 00:48:39,880
think he should be punished to the fullest extent of

785
00:48:39,960 --> 00:48:44,840
Utah law. But it's almost more important that the person

786
00:48:44,960 --> 00:48:50,119
is caught quickly and competently, right, that they understand that

787
00:48:50,480 --> 00:48:52,800
if you try to do this, there is no chance

788
00:48:52,800 --> 00:48:56,519
of you escaping, where in this case the FBI seems

789
00:48:56,559 --> 00:48:59,639
to have sort of fumbled the back. They've bumbled, they

790
00:48:59,639 --> 00:49:02,320
didn't what they were supposed to, and so fair enough,

791
00:49:02,320 --> 00:49:04,320
I guess it took less than two full days for

792
00:49:04,360 --> 00:49:07,000
the guy to be brought to justice. But how was

793
00:49:07,000 --> 00:49:10,559
he brought to justice? Well, basically it seems as if

794
00:49:10,599 --> 00:49:12,800
his dad and maybe a pastor or a priest were

795
00:49:12,800 --> 00:49:15,719
not entirely sure recognized the photo and said, hey, Bud,

796
00:49:15,760 --> 00:49:18,920
you got to turn yourself in. This is not exactly

797
00:49:20,559 --> 00:49:26,199
a no knock rade. So because why does that matter? Well, one,

798
00:49:27,000 --> 00:49:29,440
it's a show of force, certainly does that. But also

799
00:49:29,559 --> 00:49:32,599
you've got to understand that when these people imagine themselves

800
00:49:32,599 --> 00:49:35,840
in that position, they say, well, he almost got away

801
00:49:35,840 --> 00:49:39,760
with it. I bet I could, especially if what seems

802
00:49:39,800 --> 00:49:41,360
to be the case is the case, which is that

803
00:49:41,400 --> 00:49:44,519
this was coordinated, that were multiple people involved. If you

804
00:49:44,559 --> 00:49:46,760
look at it and say, well, if he had a

805
00:49:46,800 --> 00:49:49,480
better driver, or if he had done things a little different,

806
00:49:49,519 --> 00:49:53,000
I bet I could get away with it. That is

807
00:49:53,920 --> 00:49:56,760
going to encourage copycats. Whereas if it is an immediate

808
00:49:57,199 --> 00:50:00,440
response that no, you will not get away, the FBI

809
00:50:00,559 --> 00:50:02,599
will hunt you down and find you wherever you are.

810
00:50:03,280 --> 00:50:07,960
That's a deterrent. Similarly, when we talk about punishment, Utah

811
00:50:08,079 --> 00:50:12,360
does permit capital punishment. I think it They have, you know,

812
00:50:12,400 --> 00:50:16,440
one of two methods, lethal injection or a healthy dose

813
00:50:16,440 --> 00:50:20,840
of thirty thirty to the cardiothorastic cavity. But either way,

814
00:50:21,360 --> 00:50:24,159
this man deserves to face the full consequences of the

815
00:50:24,199 --> 00:50:28,320
law for a couple of reasons. One, the blood of

816
00:50:28,320 --> 00:50:32,760
the innocent cries out for justice, right is Christians and

817
00:50:32,800 --> 00:50:36,159
you know, men of the West, we understand this. But

818
00:50:36,239 --> 00:50:38,719
another one is that, look, we've got to understand that

819
00:50:38,800 --> 00:50:40,760
it seems as if this guy was a bugman loser

820
00:50:41,719 --> 00:50:44,880
keeping him inside for the rest of his life, especially

821
00:50:44,960 --> 00:50:48,360
given his sexual proclivities. Is I mean, is that any

822
00:50:48,360 --> 00:50:51,880
different from how he lived? Let's be honest, and again,

823
00:50:52,440 --> 00:50:55,559
we don't want to make this man into a sort

824
00:50:55,559 --> 00:50:58,679
of an uncle Ted figure, right, a guy we can

825
00:50:58,960 --> 00:51:02,800
you know, look at in Supermax and sort of view

826
00:51:02,840 --> 00:51:06,360
as our our lovable uncle. He needs to face the

827
00:51:06,400 --> 00:51:10,360
consequences for his actions. And one of the bizarre injustices,

828
00:51:10,400 --> 00:51:14,400
the bizarre indignities of modernity, is that even if convicted

829
00:51:14,480 --> 00:51:16,679
and you know, given a life sentence, it's likely to

830
00:51:16,719 --> 00:51:19,280
take ten to fifteen years and you know, two to

831
00:51:19,360 --> 00:51:22,639
five million dollars of our money, Pete, to make sure

832
00:51:22,679 --> 00:51:26,239
that he goes out the way he ought to. This

833
00:51:26,320 --> 00:51:28,039
is a topic I realize it's probably a little dicey

834
00:51:28,039 --> 00:51:31,159
to talk about on the internet. I believe in the

835
00:51:31,239 --> 00:51:34,039
law exactly is written in the state of Utah. I'll

836
00:51:34,079 --> 00:51:34,559
leave it at that.

837
00:51:38,360 --> 00:51:42,960
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, people need I think we've gotten to the

838
00:51:42,960 --> 00:51:45,880
point where people want finality. I think a lot of

839
00:51:45,920 --> 00:51:51,400
people are hungry for you know, just come out and

840
00:51:51,400 --> 00:51:56,480
say it's hungry for blood. They are. I think a

841
00:51:56,480 --> 00:51:58,559
lot of people are at the point where they don't

842
00:51:58,719 --> 00:52:01,679
care if things are in a certain way anymore, if

843
00:52:01,679 --> 00:52:06,519
they're done in a legitimate way. And yeah, I want

844
00:52:06,559 --> 00:52:08,920
to see things done in a legitimate way at least

845
00:52:08,920 --> 00:52:11,920
when it comes to this, when it comes to everything,

846
00:52:12,039 --> 00:52:13,920
I want to see it done in a legitimate way,

847
00:52:14,199 --> 00:52:20,639
but that legitimate way is going to take will and

848
00:52:20,719 --> 00:52:22,840
you know, to go back to the fact that you

849
00:52:22,960 --> 00:52:28,880
still have these networks out there, these networks are still operating,

850
00:52:29,760 --> 00:52:33,280
and you know, according to Mike Shelby, he doesn't really

851
00:52:33,280 --> 00:52:40,599
see them escalating, not yet. This could be something a

852
00:52:40,679 --> 00:52:43,239
reaction to it could be something you just never know.

853
00:52:44,239 --> 00:52:52,239
But if these networks aren't destroyed, we're we're looking at

854
00:52:52,400 --> 00:52:57,519
living in a situation like Italy's Years of Lead. I

855
00:52:57,639 --> 00:53:00,719
just re released an episode I did on that a

856
00:53:00,760 --> 00:53:04,280
couple of years ago. We're looking at like the early

857
00:53:04,360 --> 00:53:08,599
nineteen thirties Spain, where people are just people are just

858
00:53:08,639 --> 00:53:14,440
taken out, where you're just it's it can get to

859
00:53:14,480 --> 00:53:19,360
the point, unfortunately, and especially when the country is so

860
00:53:19,519 --> 00:53:21,920
divided and you have so many groups that have just

861
00:53:22,599 --> 00:53:28,320
closed ranks, that somebody gets taken out and the only

862
00:53:28,360 --> 00:53:31,000
group that cares about it is that group, the group

863
00:53:31,000 --> 00:53:39,760
that that person belonged to. And yeah, it's comes a

864
00:53:39,880 --> 00:53:43,440
time when you have to look at certain groups and

865
00:53:44,079 --> 00:53:48,719
they have to be legitimately targeted and legitimately their power

866
00:53:49,000 --> 00:53:54,039
has to be absolutely destroyed from the top down, and

867
00:53:54,159 --> 00:53:57,559
their worst elements have to be dealt with in a

868
00:53:57,719 --> 00:54:01,480
very legitimate way by state actors. And you know, I

869
00:54:01,639 --> 00:54:05,559
just don't know whether we have people who have the

870
00:54:05,599 --> 00:54:10,000
will to do it, mostly because the system has been

871
00:54:10,119 --> 00:54:15,519
set up up until now that these people drive the

872
00:54:15,639 --> 00:54:20,119
narrative that these people are the coddled ones, that these

873
00:54:20,199 --> 00:54:24,280
people are the golloms, that these are the people who

874
00:54:25,119 --> 00:54:27,800
you know, Uncle Ted talked about in the systems need

875
00:54:27,880 --> 00:54:33,239
at trick about that they just basically become the state

876
00:54:33,880 --> 00:54:37,400
where they can do as they please and get away

877
00:54:37,440 --> 00:54:40,920
with it, and or you know, you can invoke San

878
00:54:41,000 --> 00:54:44,920
Francis and you know, talk about a narco tyranny. But

879
00:54:46,480 --> 00:54:52,400
until a narco tyranny is destroyed and is looked down

880
00:54:52,519 --> 00:54:56,280
upon as much as you know, you look down upon

881
00:54:56,719 --> 00:54:59,679
child molested, you know, anyone who's promoting that, is promoting

882
00:54:59,719 --> 00:55:05,239
child molestation or anything like that, we're we're in chaos

883
00:55:05,519 --> 00:55:09,800
and we're basically headed toward. Yeah. I wouldn't say a

884
00:55:09,880 --> 00:55:12,400
mass civil war, I don't think that that's possible anymore,

885
00:55:12,760 --> 00:55:16,960
but definitely skirmishes like the Haymarket riots or like the

886
00:55:17,039 --> 00:55:19,800
years of Lead or you know, like the troubles.

887
00:55:21,559 --> 00:55:24,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, so I just want to say mutual friend of ours,

888
00:55:24,440 --> 00:55:27,320
Carl dol wrote a very good essay you can find

889
00:55:27,320 --> 00:55:30,599
it on substack called it often rhymes but it doesn't repeat,

890
00:55:31,440 --> 00:55:34,599
comparing our current moment to the run up to the

891
00:55:34,599 --> 00:55:37,360
Spanish Civil War. I highly recommend that he's been on

892
00:55:37,360 --> 00:55:42,960
both of our shows a number of times. Read that essay. Look, man,

893
00:55:43,079 --> 00:55:45,519
I think you're one hundred percent right, because you've got

894
00:55:45,519 --> 00:55:54,440
to understand actions produce consequences. It's very basic. But when

895
00:55:54,519 --> 00:55:59,079
there is a rampump in political violence, it can and

896
00:55:59,199 --> 00:56:02,960
often does. The number of events that you've mentioned lead

897
00:56:03,079 --> 00:56:06,239
to a cycle of tit for tat violence. You hit

898
00:56:06,280 --> 00:56:09,800
one of ours, we hit one of yours, and in

899
00:56:09,800 --> 00:56:13,880
an immediate sense, on the balance sheet of a conflict,

900
00:56:14,639 --> 00:56:17,320
that makes sense. You could say that those actors, within

901
00:56:17,360 --> 00:56:21,960
their bounded rationality are acting correctly. But look, man, we

902
00:56:22,039 --> 00:56:27,039
live here. We don't want to devolve into political violence.

903
00:56:27,440 --> 00:56:31,679
Lady of Shalot Rip she did a great episode talking

904
00:56:31,679 --> 00:56:34,880
about growing up during the troubles, what that was like

905
00:56:35,280 --> 00:56:38,840
for young girl, and look, I liked her, she was

906
00:56:38,880 --> 00:56:42,400
a friend, but I wouldn't wish that on anyone, especially

907
00:56:42,480 --> 00:56:46,840
not a countryman of ours. We don't need to do

908
00:56:46,880 --> 00:56:51,440
this it's something that can be prevented. It just requires

909
00:56:52,280 --> 00:56:55,360
a decision. It requires a leader. It requires someone to

910
00:56:55,639 --> 00:56:58,559
like Alexander, step up to the Gordian knot pull out

911
00:56:58,599 --> 00:57:02,000
their sword and chop in half, say the buck stops

912
00:57:02,000 --> 00:57:06,920
with me. We are this is no longer acceptable. We're done.

913
00:57:07,039 --> 00:57:10,199
That's what it takes. As we've been, you know, memed

914
00:57:10,199 --> 00:57:12,920
into oblivion. You can just do things, and this is

915
00:57:12,920 --> 00:57:15,199
something that can be done. Not to say that it

916
00:57:15,239 --> 00:57:18,079
isn't difficult, not to say that you won't face a

917
00:57:18,119 --> 00:57:21,559
pushback from within your own institutions, but to say this

918
00:57:21,679 --> 00:57:24,639
is a problem that can be fixed. There are people

919
00:57:24,679 --> 00:57:28,239
in power right now who can fix it. The idea

920
00:57:28,280 --> 00:57:31,639
that this is beyond the scope of human possibility is

921
00:57:32,400 --> 00:57:35,320
it's absurd. It's so clearly not the case, because just

922
00:57:35,400 --> 00:57:38,519
like with Discord, we've seen what the FBI, with the DOJ,

923
00:57:39,039 --> 00:57:44,559
what our massive, absurdly large security apparatus can do when

924
00:57:44,559 --> 00:57:47,719
it wants to, when it wants to make someone's stay miserable,

925
00:57:47,760 --> 00:57:50,360
when it wants to pull an organization apart, it can

926
00:57:50,440 --> 00:57:54,199
do that. And if you don't, not only are you

927
00:57:54,320 --> 00:57:57,039
massively increasing the likelihood of you know, the kind of

928
00:57:57,079 --> 00:58:02,840
civil conflict you were talking about. You were deciding I

929
00:58:02,880 --> 00:58:06,760
don't care enough. You were deciding it isn't worth the effort.

930
00:58:06,920 --> 00:58:10,599
You were deciding that it's not worth pursuing justice, isn't

931
00:58:10,719 --> 00:58:15,000
worth it. And if that's your answer, fair enough. But

932
00:58:15,079 --> 00:58:18,840
you've lost my loyalty.

933
00:58:18,960 --> 00:58:24,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I don't know. I don't know that

934
00:58:24,400 --> 00:58:31,320
there's much more to be said right now because there's

935
00:58:31,360 --> 00:58:34,559
nothing that you and I can do. We can scream

936
00:58:34,599 --> 00:58:37,400
as much as we can into these microphones, but we

937
00:58:37,400 --> 00:58:41,360
don't have the power to do that. Maybe there's someone listening.

938
00:58:41,920 --> 00:58:47,679
We know there's people listening. Come on, please just step

939
00:58:47,760 --> 00:58:50,480
up and do this, because we're not going I mean,

940
00:58:50,519 --> 00:58:54,440
this is not going to be a place where you're

941
00:58:54,440 --> 00:58:57,440
going to want your children and your grandchildren raised in.

942
00:58:58,199 --> 00:59:00,679
You're going to be it's going you're going to be

943
00:59:00,840 --> 00:59:04,480
like South Africa, where you are going to have to

944
00:59:04,639 --> 00:59:08,719
build gates and electric fences, and you're going to have

945
00:59:08,760 --> 00:59:10,960
to protect your house, and you're going to have to

946
00:59:12,760 --> 00:59:17,719
bulletproof some things, bulletproof your house, bulletproof your vehicles. I mean,

947
00:59:17,800 --> 00:59:20,760
that is the direction we're heading in. If these people

948
00:59:20,960 --> 00:59:27,119
do not step up and eliminate I mean eliminate these people,

949
00:59:27,320 --> 00:59:29,760
and I don't care what that is. Just do it

950
00:59:29,840 --> 00:59:33,199
under the do it under the legitimacy of the state.

951
00:59:34,360 --> 00:59:43,559
And if you don't, first of all, you're not gonna

952
00:59:43,679 --> 00:59:45,360
you're not gonna have the support of the people. You're

953
00:59:45,360 --> 00:59:48,840
going to lose the support of the people, and you're

954
00:59:50,840 --> 00:59:55,519
whatever legitimacy you have is gone. And two is just

955
00:59:56,599 --> 00:59:58,920
it's not going to be safe for you. I mean,

956
00:59:59,039 --> 01:00:04,239
Charlie Kirk, who who's next? Who's next? I mean it's

957
01:00:05,880 --> 01:00:07,239
I mean, I'm not saying if they can get to

958
01:00:07,320 --> 01:00:10,119
Charlie Kirk, because Charlie Kirk doesn't have secret doesn't have

959
01:00:10,199 --> 01:00:11,599
secret service, but you.

960
01:00:11,519 --> 01:00:15,000
Speaker 2: Know a lot of it who does have secrets.

961
01:00:15,440 --> 01:00:18,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, but a lot of the people in this government

962
01:00:19,119 --> 01:00:21,039
love the fact that they can go out to nice

963
01:00:21,079 --> 01:00:23,480
restaurants and they can go out and they can be

964
01:00:23,519 --> 01:00:28,719
in public, and that they can be whatever side you're on,

965
01:00:29,840 --> 01:00:34,480
you're sacrificing that for the future. You're you're looking at

966
01:00:35,199 --> 01:00:37,079
not being able to go out, or not being able

967
01:00:37,119 --> 01:00:39,199
to go out with an armed presence, not being able

968
01:00:39,239 --> 01:00:45,800
to go out with armed Yeah, with armed security, if

969
01:00:45,800 --> 01:00:49,079
you don't already have it, If that's the way you

970
01:00:49,119 --> 01:00:53,199
want to live, okay, then fine, go ahead. It's going

971
01:00:53,239 --> 01:00:55,559
to affect you. It'll affect you less than it will

972
01:00:55,599 --> 01:00:58,360
than normal person, but it's still going to affect you.

973
01:00:58,880 --> 01:01:01,679
And nobody's going to nobody's gonna give you, nobody's gonna

974
01:01:01,719 --> 01:01:04,039
take you seriously. And that's all these people care about

975
01:01:04,119 --> 01:01:07,719
is being taken seriously. And that's that's where we are.

976
01:01:08,119 --> 01:01:11,400
It's just the word. We've talked about a lot, and

977
01:01:11,400 --> 01:01:14,159
this is legitimacy, and things need to be done legitimately.

978
01:01:14,719 --> 01:01:19,320
And that's gone. That's gone after this. If you don't

979
01:01:19,320 --> 01:01:23,480
destroy these people, it's it's done. It's over right.

980
01:01:23,679 --> 01:01:27,320
Speaker 2: It's a it's a simple binary. There are two paths forward.

981
01:01:28,039 --> 01:01:30,760
Either you acquiesce, you roll over, you bite the pillow,

982
01:01:30,960 --> 01:01:35,000
you take it, or you decide we want to win,

983
01:01:36,039 --> 01:01:43,400
we want to exist. And it's that simple. There. There

984
01:01:43,400 --> 01:01:46,840
are two paths ahead of you, and for those in charge,

985
01:01:47,760 --> 01:01:49,679
they are the only ones who can make that decision.

986
01:01:53,360 --> 01:01:56,760
Speaker 1: All right, Jay Burden, tell everybody, Shill, tell everybody where

987
01:01:56,800 --> 01:01:58,400
they can support your work and find your work.

988
01:01:59,119 --> 01:02:01,400
Speaker 2: Yeah. So the article we've mentioned is over at the

989
01:02:01,400 --> 01:02:04,079
Old Glory Club. You can find them on substack. They

990
01:02:04,159 --> 01:02:07,440
publish a great many fine articles, but my main output

991
01:02:07,480 --> 01:02:10,800
is The Jay Burden Show, Apple, Spotify, YouTube, anywhere you

992
01:02:10,840 --> 01:02:13,760
listen to podcasts. If you want my episodes early in

993
01:02:13,800 --> 01:02:15,599
ad free, you're gonna have to throw me a few bucks.

994
01:02:15,880 --> 01:02:18,880
You may be familiar with this business model. I shamelessly

995
01:02:18,920 --> 01:02:21,719
stole it from Pete. So if you think what would

996
01:02:21,719 --> 01:02:24,280
Pete do? But slightly worse, it's the Jay Burden Show.

997
01:02:24,360 --> 01:02:24,800
Check it out.

998
01:02:29,800 --> 01:02:36,280
Speaker 1: I didn't a response to that. All right, Jay, thank you.

999
01:02:36,480 --> 01:02:37,159
I appreciate you.

1000
01:02:37,639 --> 01:03:12,320
Speaker 2: Sure thing man,