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The gripping story of one of the most 54 00:02:50.080 --> 00:02:54.199 fascinating cold cases of the twentieth century was eight year 55 00:02:54.240 --> 00:02:58.719 old Anne Marie Burr, serial killer Ted Bundy's first victim. 56 00:02:59.199 --> 00:03:02.520 She disappeared from their Tacoma, Washington neighborhood early on a 57 00:03:02.560 --> 00:03:06.840 summer morning in nineteen sixty one. Her body was never found. 58 00:03:07.120 --> 00:03:10.800 There were no clues, no ransom demand, and no arrest. 59 00:03:11.280 --> 00:03:13.840 Was Bundy telling the truth when he told a hypothetical 60 00:03:13.960 --> 00:03:17.240 story about killing Anne and dumping her into a muddy pit. 61 00:03:18.159 --> 00:03:21.840 With new information about Ted Bundy's childhood, interviews with those 62 00:03:21.879 --> 00:03:24.599 who knew him best, and the memories of the Burr family, 63 00:03:25.240 --> 00:03:27.719 Ted and Anne, the mystery of a missing child and 64 00:03:27.759 --> 00:03:31.639 her neighbor Ted Bundy has been called an astonishing achievement 65 00:03:31.759 --> 00:03:35.599 by Greg Olson and fascinating by the late Great Ann Rule. 66 00:03:36.520 --> 00:03:39.400 Ted and Anne the mystery of a missing child in 67 00:03:39.439 --> 00:03:42.520 her neighborhood and her neighbor Ted Bundy with my special 68 00:03:42.520 --> 00:03:46.240 guests Rebecca Morris, journalist and author Rebecca Morris. Welcome back 69 00:03:46.240 --> 00:03:48.360 to the program, and thank you very much for a 70 00:03:48.360 --> 00:03:50.439 Greenness interview. Rebecca Morris. 71 00:03:51.080 --> 00:03:53.120 Well, thanks you, Dan. I always have a great time 72 00:03:53.199 --> 00:03:57.039 talking with you about books and about murderers. 73 00:03:58.560 --> 00:04:03.240 Yes, well that's the subject we have. Thank you very much. Yes, 74 00:04:03.280 --> 00:04:06.560 this is a fascinating book and I just interviewed you recently, 75 00:04:06.639 --> 00:04:09.719 so I've just discovered this book, and so the audience 76 00:04:09.840 --> 00:04:15.240 is in for something very very different from those people 77 00:04:15.240 --> 00:04:19.800 that know about Bundy. So let's talk about right away, 78 00:04:19.800 --> 00:04:23.800 Anne Marie Burr. And you opened the book with August thirtieth, 79 00:04:23.920 --> 00:04:29.879 nineteen sixty one in Tacoma, Washington, and you talk about 80 00:04:29.879 --> 00:04:32.720 the day before and there was supposed to be a 81 00:04:32.879 --> 00:04:38.199 rainstorm was forecast, and you talk about Anne Marie Burr, 82 00:04:38.240 --> 00:04:40.199 which was eight and a half years old and Greg, 83 00:04:40.240 --> 00:04:44.000 her brother was five, Her father was Dawn, and her 84 00:04:44.040 --> 00:04:48.279 mother was Beverly. So take us, as you do, back 85 00:04:48.319 --> 00:04:51.360 to August thirtieth, nineteen sixty one. What was the family doing, 86 00:04:51.439 --> 00:04:55.040 and tell us a little bit about their life in Tacoma, Washington, 87 00:04:55.120 --> 00:04:56.000 what that was like. 88 00:04:57.480 --> 00:05:01.120 Well, I'm always interested in, you know, what comes before 89 00:05:01.439 --> 00:05:07.680 a crime. So I had written about Bev Ber, the 90 00:05:07.720 --> 00:05:11.360 mother of Anne Marie Burr, for the Seattle Times in 91 00:05:11.680 --> 00:05:17.319 two thousand and seven, and rather in for this cold 92 00:05:17.399 --> 00:05:21.279 case in America, the disappearance of Anne Marie Ber, but 93 00:05:21.560 --> 00:05:23.800 it hadn't been written them out in many, many decades. 94 00:05:24.360 --> 00:05:26.160 So I didn't really set out to write a book 95 00:05:26.199 --> 00:05:29.680 about Ted Bundy, but it became a book about two families, 96 00:05:29.920 --> 00:05:33.360 the Burrs and the Bundyes. And on that day, which 97 00:05:33.399 --> 00:05:38.199 is just before Labor Day weekend in late August in 98 00:05:38.279 --> 00:05:42.279 nineteen sixty one, Beverly Burr was getting She had five children, 99 00:05:42.480 --> 00:05:44.399 and Anne Marie Burr at eight and a half was 100 00:05:44.439 --> 00:05:48.240 the oldest. So that was you know a lot of 101 00:05:48.319 --> 00:05:50.959 children under the age of nine. But she was getting 102 00:05:51.000 --> 00:05:54.360 the children ready for school and ironing a new breast 103 00:05:54.839 --> 00:05:58.639 address for Anne Marie. And you know the kids who 104 00:05:58.639 --> 00:06:02.439 were were playing. It was a very they were a 105 00:06:02.519 --> 00:06:06.279 very working class blue collar family, but in a nice 106 00:06:06.319 --> 00:06:10.800 little stone tutor uh very close to right right in Tacoma, 107 00:06:10.879 --> 00:06:13.680 but uh close to the University of Puget Sound, uh 108 00:06:13.720 --> 00:06:18.959 one of the private universities there. And Don berrh uh 109 00:06:19.120 --> 00:06:24.160 worked uh at uh at one of the military bases nearby. 110 00:06:24.879 --> 00:06:30.399 And uh bevber had gone to college, finished college, or 111 00:06:30.920 --> 00:06:33.279 more education than her husband had. She always wanted to 112 00:06:33.319 --> 00:06:35.720 be a writer. She wanted to be a journalist. And 113 00:06:36.160 --> 00:06:38.800 you know that was uh a great gift to me 114 00:06:38.879 --> 00:06:42.879 because she chronicled everything that happened in her life, including 115 00:06:43.519 --> 00:06:47.399 uh the you know, nearly forty years she lived knowing 116 00:06:47.439 --> 00:06:50.199 that her daughter was missing. So they were just kind 117 00:06:50.199 --> 00:06:52.519 of getting ready at the end of the summer. Two 118 00:06:52.600 --> 00:06:56.639 of the younger children wanted to spend one last night 119 00:06:56.680 --> 00:07:02.079 in their fort in the basement, so basically downstairs, and 120 00:07:02.120 --> 00:07:08.800 then Anne and her young sister Mary slept upstairs. The 121 00:07:08.879 --> 00:07:11.800 parents always slept on the main floor of the house 122 00:07:11.839 --> 00:07:15.240 in a back bedroom with their door open in case 123 00:07:15.279 --> 00:07:17.639 they needed to, you know, respond to the kids. And 124 00:07:17.680 --> 00:07:20.879 in the middle of the night, and you know, there 125 00:07:20.920 --> 00:07:25.839 was a storm at night on the thirtieth and we're 126 00:07:25.920 --> 00:07:28.600 kind of famous for rain out here. But it was, 127 00:07:29.279 --> 00:07:32.600 you know, a really kind of harsh late summer storm, 128 00:07:32.800 --> 00:07:37.240 and some of the power went off around their neighborhood, 129 00:07:37.279 --> 00:07:45.120 and and it was so windy and noisy that, you know, 130 00:07:45.160 --> 00:07:48.720 you couldn't hear something if somebody was coming into your 131 00:07:48.759 --> 00:07:53.800 home perhaps or crawling through a window. The dog had 132 00:07:53.839 --> 00:07:55.920 sort of barked off and on, but the dog had 133 00:07:55.959 --> 00:07:59.120 been barking off and on for a few days. And 134 00:07:59.199 --> 00:08:02.600 there's been some proud in the neighborhood and some peeping toms, 135 00:08:03.800 --> 00:08:06.879 so you know, the family was aware of that. But 136 00:08:06.959 --> 00:08:12.000 it was a rather ordinary day, which you know, is 137 00:08:12.120 --> 00:08:13.360 very poignant. 138 00:08:15.920 --> 00:08:20.319 You talk about that early in the morning, Beverly at 139 00:08:20.360 --> 00:08:26.480 five point fifteen am, and she discovers that Anne is missing. 140 00:08:26.519 --> 00:08:29.720 So right away she starts knocking on neighbors doors. What 141 00:08:29.759 --> 00:08:33.519 does she find other than the door, ajar, What does 142 00:08:33.559 --> 00:08:37.039 she immediately see? And then what does she immediately do 143 00:08:37.200 --> 00:08:37.919 in response? 144 00:08:39.799 --> 00:08:44.279 Well, they were kind of early risers, and she got up, 145 00:08:44.600 --> 00:08:46.519 as you said, five fifteen, went to check on the 146 00:08:46.600 --> 00:08:50.480 children and realized that Anne wasn't in her bed. She 147 00:08:51.080 --> 00:08:53.639 you know, looked throughout the house and looked in the 148 00:08:53.639 --> 00:08:56.720 basement where the other kids were, but she didn't see her. 149 00:08:57.600 --> 00:08:59.919 She saw that the front door of the living room 150 00:09:00.440 --> 00:09:03.600 front door, the latch was unlatched, and the door was open, 151 00:09:03.759 --> 00:09:07.039 and there was also a window that was pushed open 152 00:09:07.960 --> 00:09:12.039 over on uh one side of the living room. And 153 00:09:12.519 --> 00:09:18.759 when she stepped around outside, she found that a a 154 00:09:18.919 --> 00:09:22.480 s uh a steps toool uh of of some sort 155 00:09:22.519 --> 00:09:28.120 had been pulled over to the window, and uh it 156 00:09:28.200 --> 00:09:31.840 looked like somebody had had gone in through the window. Uh. 157 00:09:31.879 --> 00:09:34.279 There was some things underneath the window in the living 158 00:09:34.360 --> 00:09:38.120 room side, some little figurines that she collected. Nothing seemed 159 00:09:38.120 --> 00:09:41.360 to be disturbed. But but the front door was open, 160 00:09:41.440 --> 00:09:45.720 the window was open, and that was, you know, not 161 00:09:45.840 --> 00:09:49.879 the norm. She went knocking on neighbors doors and uh 162 00:09:50.360 --> 00:09:55.200 and nobody had had seen or heard anything. She went 163 00:09:55.240 --> 00:09:57.759 home and and they called the police right away. You know, 164 00:09:57.840 --> 00:10:01.120 she got her husband up and and they called the police, 165 00:10:01.360 --> 00:10:07.519 and that started the well, you know, the beginnings of 166 00:10:07.639 --> 00:10:14.679 this terrible, terrible ordeal. I mean, I've talked with a 167 00:10:14.679 --> 00:10:18.600 lot of parents whose children or loved ones are missing. 168 00:10:19.120 --> 00:10:23.240 But you know, she lived the next fifty years of 169 00:10:23.240 --> 00:10:26.000 her life not knowing what had happened. 170 00:10:27.320 --> 00:10:31.320 Yeah, you introduced a couple of characters that are in 171 00:10:31.360 --> 00:10:35.159 this story from the beginning and almost through to the end. 172 00:10:36.200 --> 00:10:39.679 A couple of detectives, very colorful guys, Detectives Adkovich and 173 00:10:39.919 --> 00:10:45.519 Detective Strand. And you say that these people are there 174 00:10:45.559 --> 00:10:48.200 on the scene very quickly. I suppose to a lot 175 00:10:48.200 --> 00:10:51.000 of stories where people say that someone's missing. This girl's 176 00:10:51.000 --> 00:10:53.480 eight years old. The police are there right away, there 177 00:10:53.559 --> 00:10:56.559 is a search. You also talk about the setup because 178 00:10:56.559 --> 00:10:59.480 they believe that if it's a kidnapping, that they're certainly 179 00:10:59.519 --> 00:11:02.799 going to be a ransom or of somebody asking for 180 00:11:02.799 --> 00:11:05.600 a ransom. And in response, what did the police do 181 00:11:06.240 --> 00:11:07.759 and set up at the BurrH home. 182 00:11:12.000 --> 00:11:16.080 Well, try, I'm trying to think of what exactly they 183 00:11:16.159 --> 00:11:20.519 they Uh, I they did expect a ransom, and the 184 00:11:20.639 --> 00:11:24.080 history of cases in Tacoma is that there would be 185 00:11:24.080 --> 00:11:28.720 a ransom, you know, just just uh, twenty years before this, 186 00:11:28.840 --> 00:11:33.120 there was the famous kidnapping of uh George Warehouser's son 187 00:11:33.600 --> 00:11:37.519 of the Warehouser, the lumber magnet, whose son was uh 188 00:11:37.679 --> 00:11:41.200 completely just take taken off a city street one day, 189 00:11:41.759 --> 00:11:45.960 uh as a teenager, and uh the ransom you know, 190 00:11:46.360 --> 00:11:48.799 was paid and and he was found the same day 191 00:11:49.279 --> 00:11:54.039 but there was also a famous murder uh again in 192 00:11:54.080 --> 00:11:58.159 the thirties of uh the boy who somebody'd come right 193 00:11:58.200 --> 00:12:02.879 into his father's house and taken this child away, and 194 00:12:03.159 --> 00:12:07.879 at that point that was the largest missing person's search 195 00:12:08.080 --> 00:12:11.679 I think in America. Then in the thirties, not long 196 00:12:11.720 --> 00:12:15.919 after the Lenburgh kidnapping, and uh that boy was finally found, 197 00:12:16.759 --> 00:12:19.600 uh murdered. But uh so they were expecting, they were 198 00:12:19.600 --> 00:12:23.399 expecting ransom demands and lots of times uh ransom demands, 199 00:12:23.519 --> 00:12:28.320 you know, something goes wrong, but uh, they they were 200 00:12:28.320 --> 00:12:31.480 expecting that. And yes, they did respond right away. 201 00:12:31.600 --> 00:12:31.759 You know. 202 00:12:31.799 --> 00:12:34.159 First of all, the patrol car went to the house, 203 00:12:34.200 --> 00:12:38.279 but soon soon after the detectives did. And they they 204 00:12:38.320 --> 00:12:44.480 took this seriously, Uh from the very beginning. It's amazing 205 00:12:44.519 --> 00:12:48.000 how they needed to take it, you know, seriously, and 206 00:12:48.120 --> 00:12:51.799 that they just didn't shrug it off as a childhood 207 00:12:52.279 --> 00:12:55.600 you know, wandered away to you know, get breakfast at 208 00:12:55.600 --> 00:12:56.720 the neighbor's house or something. 209 00:12:59.120 --> 00:13:02.759 You talk about. Also that they set up tape recording 210 00:13:02.840 --> 00:13:05.919 in the basement. All the phones were they were ready 211 00:13:06.000 --> 00:13:09.320 to be monitored or they were monitored, ready for somebody 212 00:13:09.360 --> 00:13:11.840 to call and then to follow that up and put 213 00:13:11.919 --> 00:13:14.799 potential ransom. So that's what was set up, and the 214 00:13:14.799 --> 00:13:18.440 police were in their home for thirty days at least 215 00:13:18.480 --> 00:13:21.720 in the beginning. You also talk about that. Of course, 216 00:13:21.720 --> 00:13:24.360 as part of the investigation, they knock on neighbors doors, 217 00:13:24.679 --> 00:13:27.000 Don joined a group of searchers made up of police 218 00:13:27.039 --> 00:13:31.559 and volunteers. Hundreds of National guardsmen were scouring fields and 219 00:13:31.720 --> 00:13:35.159 Tacoma waterways. But you also talk about that there was 220 00:13:35.960 --> 00:13:38.200 they had to question a couple of friends, and right 221 00:13:38.200 --> 00:13:42.759 away there's a fifteen year old boy that becomes at 222 00:13:42.840 --> 00:13:46.519 least someone to you know, not a suspect necessarily, but 223 00:13:46.559 --> 00:13:49.919 at least somebody they want to talk to because he 224 00:13:50.039 --> 00:13:53.559 is friends with younger children and he's fifteen years old. 225 00:13:53.600 --> 00:13:56.440 Is Robert Brews, and. 226 00:13:58.159 --> 00:14:02.600 He lived two doors away, and uh, the police were 227 00:14:02.639 --> 00:14:05.399 suspicious of him because he seemed to like to kind 228 00:14:05.440 --> 00:14:08.039 of play and hang out with the younger children, and 229 00:14:08.120 --> 00:14:12.200 they gave him In those days, you know, the p 230 00:14:12.360 --> 00:14:15.200 I mean really, law enforcement could do pretty much what 231 00:14:15.279 --> 00:14:17.679 it wanted to. They went to his school and dragged 232 00:14:17.720 --> 00:14:19.519 him out of school and took him down for a 233 00:14:19.600 --> 00:14:23.320 light detector. No parent, you know, around or on this 234 00:14:23.440 --> 00:14:27.080 scene at all, and he he did not pass his 235 00:14:27.120 --> 00:14:31.279 first lie detector test, and uh he he was cleared 236 00:14:31.320 --> 00:14:35.840 by the second one. But uh you know, I found 237 00:14:35.919 --> 00:14:38.320 him and tracked him down and it got to know 238 00:14:38.399 --> 00:14:40.360 him and talk to him, and he was just you know, 239 00:14:40.480 --> 00:14:43.720 scared to death, and you know, the police were pretty 240 00:14:43.960 --> 00:14:47.039 rough with him, not in a physical way, but you know, 241 00:14:47.159 --> 00:14:51.399 scared the daylights out of him. So he uh he, 242 00:14:51.399 --> 00:14:53.799 he stayed on their list, but kind of you know, 243 00:14:53.840 --> 00:14:57.799 at the bottom of the list, and they just had 244 00:14:58.919 --> 00:15:02.799 you know, it's just just really tough, no no obvious clues. 245 00:15:04.480 --> 00:15:06.120 Yeah. I was going to ask if there was any 246 00:15:06.679 --> 00:15:09.919 evidence left that the police could use, but there was 247 00:15:10.039 --> 00:15:14.519 little even evidence of anyone entering the home, if I'm 248 00:15:14.559 --> 00:15:15.120 not correct. 249 00:15:15.279 --> 00:15:20.879 Yeah, they found a footprint, excuse me, a footprint on 250 00:15:21.039 --> 00:15:24.679 the steps tool that was outside that looked to be 251 00:15:24.840 --> 00:15:29.759 the size of a teenage boy's a footprint, And they 252 00:15:30.080 --> 00:15:33.080 did spend a little time going to shoe stores in 253 00:15:33.559 --> 00:15:37.519 Tacoma trying to see if they could find something, you know, 254 00:15:37.559 --> 00:15:42.279 with a tread like that, and never really completely tracked 255 00:15:42.279 --> 00:15:49.080 it down. Now we know, we know decades later that 256 00:15:49.240 --> 00:15:52.279 something I don't know if it was a tissue in 257 00:15:52.360 --> 00:15:55.120 the house or you know, they said there were a 258 00:15:55.159 --> 00:15:59.679 few leaves of grass on the floor. And I'm jumping 259 00:15:59.679 --> 00:16:03.360 ahead here, but but you know, in uh just uh 260 00:16:04.240 --> 00:16:07.600 oh five years ago or so, they actually uh did 261 00:16:07.639 --> 00:16:12.399 some DNA testing on something they had kept from the 262 00:16:12.399 --> 00:16:16.360 house in nineteen sixty one, and they won't even tell uh, 263 00:16:16.840 --> 00:16:23.159 you know, Anne's siblings what what it was. But uh 264 00:16:23.480 --> 00:16:27.240 it was with with no uh you know, success or 265 00:16:27.320 --> 00:16:31.159 conclusion of the the testing of it. So there was 266 00:16:31.240 --> 00:16:33.399 some there was something. I don't know if it was, 267 00:16:34.120 --> 00:16:37.320 you know, the sheep they had kept her, oh what 268 00:16:37.320 --> 00:16:39.399 it was, because there's no there's no sign in the 269 00:16:39.399 --> 00:16:42.600 police report, you know, all all thousand pages of it, 270 00:16:42.879 --> 00:16:49.519 that anything was kept from her bedroom. And also Rubert 271 00:16:49.720 --> 00:16:53.200 was went upstairs because Anne was kind of used to 272 00:16:53.240 --> 00:16:55.360 being up and down during the night, and she may 273 00:16:55.399 --> 00:16:58.639 have come downstairs and you know, recognized somebody she knew. 274 00:17:00.159 --> 00:17:06.079 Right for the reader, you also have a parallel story, 275 00:17:06.119 --> 00:17:09.599 of course, and you introduced the connection between Ted Bundy 276 00:17:09.839 --> 00:17:14.400 and the Burrs in terms of geographical just being in 277 00:17:14.400 --> 00:17:18.720 the neighborhood and being in Tacoma. So you talk about 278 00:17:18.839 --> 00:17:23.920 that there was a friend named Sandy Holt and she'd 279 00:17:23.960 --> 00:17:26.240 spend most of her time, you say, trailing after her 280 00:17:26.279 --> 00:17:31.119 older brother, Doug, and Doug was best friends with Ted Bundy, 281 00:17:32.119 --> 00:17:34.440 and you talk about some of the things that she 282 00:17:35.200 --> 00:17:38.559 remembers from that time. I guess it would be important 283 00:17:38.559 --> 00:17:42.160 obviously to understand the character. But tell us what she 284 00:17:42.279 --> 00:17:44.640 said about some of the things that she remembers Ted 285 00:17:44.960 --> 00:17:47.640 being famous for when he was young. 286 00:17:49.160 --> 00:17:52.759 Well, let me preface this by saying that if you're 287 00:17:52.799 --> 00:17:54.559 going to write a book about Ted Bundy, you have 288 00:17:54.599 --> 00:18:00.240 to find something new and something to say. And I 289 00:18:00.960 --> 00:18:04.960 my entree into this was, you know, the birdcase. But 290 00:18:05.000 --> 00:18:09.039 then I very much worked to find people who'd never 291 00:18:09.079 --> 00:18:12.920 been interviewed, and one of them was Sandy Holt, this 292 00:18:12.960 --> 00:18:16.839 woman now in her mid sixties whose a brother was 293 00:18:16.880 --> 00:18:20.160 Ted's best friend, and she had photographs of the three 294 00:18:20.160 --> 00:18:24.319 of them together and celebrating, you know, a birthday at 295 00:18:24.319 --> 00:18:27.160 a birthday party and the boys were in cub Scouts, 296 00:18:27.839 --> 00:18:31.920 and you know, she uh had very clear memories of 297 00:18:32.000 --> 00:18:35.559 Ted and of some of the memories were of what 298 00:18:35.599 --> 00:18:38.319 he was up to as a youngster. You know, they 299 00:18:38.319 --> 00:18:40.920 would play in the woods and she said that he 300 00:18:41.079 --> 00:18:48.640 would uh she saw him, you know uh uh, you 301 00:18:48.680 --> 00:18:52.160 know violate animals and cut up birds and the things 302 00:18:52.200 --> 00:18:55.759 we kind of think of uh as uh, how serial 303 00:18:55.839 --> 00:18:59.559 killers start their careers are frequently you know, animal abuse. 304 00:18:59.680 --> 00:19:02.680 She saw some of that. And she also said he 305 00:19:02.920 --> 00:19:05.519 liked to you know, drag little girls into the woods 306 00:19:05.519 --> 00:19:09.799 and and urinate on them and uh. And then she 307 00:19:10.240 --> 00:19:15.759 told a story about her father's hidden uh stash pornography 308 00:19:15.920 --> 00:19:18.559 and how Ted you know, as a young person, had 309 00:19:18.599 --> 00:19:21.839 found that and and uh. And she also believed that 310 00:19:22.000 --> 00:19:26.240 her father, on a scouting trip, on a boy scout trip, uh, 311 00:19:26.720 --> 00:19:33.039 you know, possibly molested Ted that they were seeing, you know, 312 00:19:33.079 --> 00:19:35.880 coming out of a tent together and kind of right 313 00:19:36.200 --> 00:19:41.079 getting dressed. Uh. So her her brother is you know, 314 00:19:41.119 --> 00:19:43.079 off for the the radar these days, so I never 315 00:19:43.240 --> 00:19:47.400 spoke with him. But then she talked about, uh remembering 316 00:19:47.519 --> 00:19:52.960 Anne Burr from the neighborhood. And so she's the only 317 00:19:53.039 --> 00:19:58.000 person I ever found or heard of who knew both 318 00:19:59.240 --> 00:20:02.519 Ted and Anne. Everybody always said, and even ends and 319 00:20:02.839 --> 00:20:07.119 mothers said, well, you know, she'd ch and didn't know 320 00:20:07.480 --> 00:20:10.279 Ted Bundy, who was a little bit older, he was fourteen. 321 00:20:10.359 --> 00:20:12.839 He'd lived in that neighborhood when he and his mother 322 00:20:12.960 --> 00:20:16.759 first came uh West. Uh. They lived with his uncle 323 00:20:16.799 --> 00:20:19.599 in the neighborhood, and later his mother had married and 324 00:20:20.039 --> 00:20:24.359 they'd moved a little bit uh further north. But he's 325 00:20:24.400 --> 00:20:29.160 still you know, h roamed around in his bicycle and 326 00:20:29.160 --> 00:20:31.359 and he was a paper boy. He wasn't the Burr's 327 00:20:31.400 --> 00:20:34.400 paper boy, but you know, those were the days when 328 00:20:35.400 --> 00:20:37.119 you know, children could just roam. 329 00:20:38.319 --> 00:20:44.200 Right m M. Now there's as any Bundy fan and 330 00:20:44.240 --> 00:20:47.920 people listening to this program, I've read probably numerous books 331 00:20:48.000 --> 00:20:52.000 and listened to numerous programs about Ted Bundy. So there 332 00:20:52.079 --> 00:20:55.599 is the story. Uh again, there's some of the familiar 333 00:20:55.640 --> 00:21:01.160 in there, that how uh Ted Bundy had a problem 334 00:21:01.200 --> 00:21:05.359 with his origins of his birth and then his mother 335 00:21:06.680 --> 00:21:11.000 not knowing the origins of his parents and his mother Louise, 336 00:21:11.640 --> 00:21:18.240 and then the idea that he idolized his great uncle 337 00:21:18.480 --> 00:21:21.559 or great uncle Robert Cowell, and some of that lifestyle. 338 00:21:21.640 --> 00:21:25.839 So as you talk about in the book the psychological 339 00:21:25.839 --> 00:21:30.640 aspects of Ted Bundy forming at this time with a 340 00:21:30.720 --> 00:21:35.039 conflict over his parents, but also this adoration of his 341 00:21:35.079 --> 00:21:37.559 great uncle and that lifestyle tell us a little bit 342 00:21:37.599 --> 00:21:38.079 about that. 343 00:21:39.400 --> 00:21:45.480 Well, Ted was illegitimate. His mother was living with her 344 00:21:45.519 --> 00:21:50.920 parents in Pennsylvania, and she never ever told anybody who 345 00:21:50.960 --> 00:21:55.440 his father was. And she went to a home front 346 00:21:55.480 --> 00:21:59.720 with mother's in Vermont and had the baby, and then 347 00:21:59.799 --> 00:22:02.400 she left and her plan was to put him up 348 00:22:02.400 --> 00:22:07.880 for adoption, and her father, so Tid's grandfather insisted that 349 00:22:08.000 --> 00:22:10.759 she go back and get the baby. So we know that, 350 00:22:11.279 --> 00:22:14.720 you know, that first few months is is pretty critical 351 00:22:15.079 --> 00:22:18.759 for a child ben you know, held and loved and nurtured, 352 00:22:18.839 --> 00:22:22.279 and so he was you know, on his own in 353 00:22:22.319 --> 00:22:27.279 this uh on wo mother's orphanage for for several months, 354 00:22:27.599 --> 00:22:31.039 and then they came back to Pennsylvania, and you know, 355 00:22:31.240 --> 00:22:34.680 they're all kinds of you know, there are just so 356 00:22:34.799 --> 00:22:38.200 many stories and so many myths out there. Uh. One 357 00:22:38.240 --> 00:22:41.519 of them is that his mother made him believe that 358 00:22:41.559 --> 00:22:44.440 she was his sister and his grandparents were his parents, 359 00:22:45.279 --> 00:22:48.319 and uh then he didn't you know, he suddenly was 360 00:22:49.160 --> 00:22:51.559 you know, a young adult, a teenager in his twenties 361 00:22:51.599 --> 00:22:55.279 when he learned about his true parentage and and various 362 00:22:55.839 --> 00:23:01.319 opinions on how that uh might've set him off. The 363 00:23:01.440 --> 00:23:06.720 closest I could get to d confirming any of that 364 00:23:06.839 --> 00:23:09.480 is that later in life, when Ted was on death 365 00:23:09.559 --> 00:23:13.200 row and there was a pro bono attorney working with 366 00:23:13.319 --> 00:23:17.880 him to get him, uh a new sentence, not a 367 00:23:17.920 --> 00:23:22.519 new Chriald, but a new sentence because in fact, his 368 00:23:22.519 --> 00:23:27.599 his conviction for killing the Sorority sisters in Florida and 369 00:23:27.599 --> 00:23:32.279 and Kimberly Leach had he he would never let anything 370 00:23:32.279 --> 00:23:36.640 about his childhood or's background be entered into evidence. And 371 00:23:36.960 --> 00:23:40.920 you know, there were some some stories about uh uh, 372 00:23:41.680 --> 00:23:48.039 you know, psychological abuse and being exposed to his grandfather's abuse, 373 00:23:48.119 --> 00:23:51.960 not of Ted, but of of the grandfather's you know, 374 00:23:52.119 --> 00:23:57.079 wife and and children. And so finally uh uh and 375 00:23:57.200 --> 00:24:00.519 then Dorothy ought Now Lewis, who is a psychiatrist to Yale, 376 00:24:00.599 --> 00:24:05.160 who uh helped with that. With that last effort to 377 00:24:05.160 --> 00:24:08.920 get him a new trial, they spoke with Ted's mother, 378 00:24:10.519 --> 00:24:15.319 who finally admitted that there had been a lot of 379 00:24:16.160 --> 00:24:19.400 abuse in her childhood home where he spent his first 380 00:24:19.480 --> 00:24:23.240 five years. And I'll never forget, I mean, Dorothy Lewis 381 00:24:23.240 --> 00:24:26.480 said that she'd seen this before, that a parent would 382 00:24:26.559 --> 00:24:33.440 rather their child be executed than than admits to family secrets. 383 00:24:34.000 --> 00:24:34.240 Wow. 384 00:24:34.480 --> 00:24:37.480 And uh so they also spoke with one of his aunts, 385 00:24:37.519 --> 00:24:41.519 who confirmed the stories of the the you know, the 386 00:24:41.559 --> 00:24:46.480 manic the manic grandfather mad, the manic depression grandmother. What 387 00:24:46.599 --> 00:24:50.200 Ted would have seen that that infrom the story about 388 00:24:50.200 --> 00:24:53.279 when he was three years old and placed knives around, 389 00:24:53.880 --> 00:24:56.720 you know, his teenage aunt to to scare her. Just 390 00:24:57.200 --> 00:25:02.200 so a lot of that was, you know, confirmed back then. 391 00:25:02.880 --> 00:25:08.440 It's just really hard many years after, you know, after 392 00:25:08.519 --> 00:25:15.240 these crimes and after somebody has been executed, to really 393 00:25:15.319 --> 00:25:17.960 sort out, you know, what is myth and and what 394 00:25:18.079 --> 00:25:20.680 his reality. And frankly sometimes I leave it up to 395 00:25:20.720 --> 00:25:24.160 the to the reader, but but I tried to sort 396 00:25:24.200 --> 00:25:30.640 it out. So he terms and he he did idolize 397 00:25:30.680 --> 00:25:34.079 this uncle, his great uncle that they lived with, who was, 398 00:25:34.440 --> 00:25:37.440 you know, a music professor, and you know he and 399 00:25:37.480 --> 00:25:40.759 his family had lived in Europe and traveled and and 400 00:25:41.039 --> 00:25:45.039 that's what that's what Ted wanted at an early age, 401 00:25:45.119 --> 00:25:49.680