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Speaker 5: You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking
Speaker 5: killers in true crime history and the authors that have
Speaker 5: written about them, Gasey Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker DTK. Every week,
Speaker 5: another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous
Speaker 5: killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host,
Speaker 5: journalist and author Dan Zufanski.
Speaker 4: Good Evening. The gripping story of one of the most
Speaker 4: fascinating cold cases of the twentieth century was eight year
Speaker 4: old Anne Marie Burr, serial killer Ted Bundy's first victim.
Speaker 4: She disappeared from their Tacoma, Washington neighborhood early on a
Speaker 4: summer morning in nineteen sixty one. Her body was never found.
Speaker 4: There were no clues, no ransom demand, and no arrest.
Speaker 4: Was Bundy telling the truth when he told a hypothetical
Speaker 4: story about killing Anne and dumping her into a muddy pit.
Speaker 4: With new information about Ted Bundy's childhood, interviews with those
Speaker 4: who knew him best, and the memories of the Burr family,
Speaker 4: Ted and Anne, the mystery of a missing child and
Speaker 4: her neighbor Ted Bundy has been called an astonishing achievement
Speaker 4: by Greg Olson and fascinating by the late Great Ann Rule.
Speaker 4: Ted and Anne the mystery of a missing child in
Speaker 4: her neighborhood and her neighbor Ted Bundy with my special
Speaker 4: guests Rebecca Morris, journalist and author Rebecca Morris. Welcome back
Speaker 4: to the program, and thank you very much for a
Speaker 4: Greenness interview. Rebecca Morris.
Speaker 6: Well, thanks you, Dan. I always have a great time
Speaker 6: talking with you about books and about murderers.
Speaker 4: Yes, well that's the subject we have. Thank you very much. Yes,
Speaker 4: this is a fascinating book and I just interviewed you recently,
Speaker 4: so I've just discovered this book, and so the audience
Speaker 4: is in for something very very different from those people
Speaker 4: that know about Bundy. So let's talk about right away,
Speaker 4: Anne Marie Burr. And you opened the book with August thirtieth,
Speaker 4: nineteen sixty one in Tacoma, Washington, and you talk about
Speaker 4: the day before and there was supposed to be a
Speaker 4: rainstorm was forecast, and you talk about Anne Marie Burr,
Speaker 4: which was eight and a half years old and Greg,
Speaker 4: her brother was five, Her father was Dawn, and her
Speaker 4: mother was Beverly. So take us, as you do, back
Speaker 4: to August thirtieth, nineteen sixty one. What was the family doing,
Speaker 4: and tell us a little bit about their life in Tacoma, Washington,
Speaker 4: what that was like.
Speaker 6: Well, I'm always interested in, you know, what comes before
Speaker 6: a crime. So I had written about Bev Ber, the
Speaker 6: mother of Anne Marie Burr, for the Seattle Times in
Speaker 6: two thousand and seven, and rather in for this cold
Speaker 6: case in America, the disappearance of Anne Marie Ber, but
Speaker 6: it hadn't been written them out in many, many decades.
Speaker 6: So I didn't really set out to write a book
Speaker 6: about Ted Bundy, but it became a book about two families,
Speaker 6: the Burrs and the Bundyes. And on that day, which
Speaker 6: is just before Labor Day weekend in late August in
Speaker 6: nineteen sixty one, Beverly Burr was getting She had five children,
Speaker 6: and Anne Marie Burr at eight and a half was
Speaker 6: the oldest. So that was you know a lot of
Speaker 6: children under the age of nine. But she was getting
Speaker 6: the children ready for school and ironing a new breast
Speaker 6: address for Anne Marie. And you know the kids who
Speaker 6: were were playing. It was a very they were a
Speaker 6: very working class blue collar family, but in a nice
Speaker 6: little stone tutor uh very close to right right in Tacoma,
Speaker 6: but uh close to the University of Puget Sound, uh
Speaker 6: one of the private universities there. And Don berrh uh
Speaker 6: worked uh at uh at one of the military bases nearby.
Speaker 6: And uh bevber had gone to college, finished college, or
Speaker 6: more education than her husband had. She always wanted to
Speaker 6: be a writer. She wanted to be a journalist. And
Speaker 6: you know that was uh a great gift to me
Speaker 6: because she chronicled everything that happened in her life, including
Speaker 6: uh the you know, nearly forty years she lived knowing
Speaker 6: that her daughter was missing. So they were just kind
Speaker 6: of getting ready at the end of the summer. Two
Speaker 6: of the younger children wanted to spend one last night
Speaker 6: in their fort in the basement, so basically downstairs, and
Speaker 6: then Anne and her young sister Mary slept upstairs. The
Speaker 6: parents always slept on the main floor of the house
Speaker 6: in a back bedroom with their door open in case
Speaker 6: they needed to, you know, respond to the kids. And
Speaker 6: in the middle of the night, and you know, there
Speaker 6: was a storm at night on the thirtieth and we're
Speaker 6: kind of famous for rain out here. But it was,
Speaker 6: you know, a really kind of harsh late summer storm,
Speaker 6: and some of the power went off around their neighborhood,
Speaker 6: and and it was so windy and noisy that, you know,
Speaker 6: you couldn't hear something if somebody was coming into your
Speaker 6: home perhaps or crawling through a window. The dog had
Speaker 6: sort of barked off and on, but the dog had
Speaker 6: been barking off and on for a few days. And
Speaker 6: there's been some proud in the neighborhood and some peeping toms,
Speaker 6: so you know, the family was aware of that. But
Speaker 6: it was a rather ordinary day, which you know, is
Speaker 6: very poignant.
Speaker 4: You talk about that early in the morning, Beverly at
Speaker 4: five point fifteen am, and she discovers that Anne is missing.
Speaker 4: So right away she starts knocking on neighbors doors. What
Speaker 4: does she find other than the door, ajar, What does
Speaker 4: she immediately see? And then what does she immediately do
Speaker 4: in response?
Speaker 6: Well, they were kind of early risers, and she got up,
Speaker 6: as you said, five fifteen, went to check on the
Speaker 6: children and realized that Anne wasn't in her bed. She
Speaker 6: you know, looked throughout the house and looked in the
Speaker 6: basement where the other kids were, but she didn't see her.
Speaker 6: She saw that the front door of the living room
Speaker 6: front door, the latch was unlatched, and the door was open,
Speaker 6: and there was also a window that was pushed open
Speaker 6: over on uh one side of the living room. And
Speaker 6: when she stepped around outside, she found that a a
Speaker 6: s uh a steps toool uh of of some sort
Speaker 6: had been pulled over to the window, and uh it
Speaker 6: looked like somebody had had gone in through the window. Uh.
Speaker 6: There was some things underneath the window in the living
Speaker 6: room side, some little figurines that she collected. Nothing seemed
Speaker 6: to be disturbed. But but the front door was open,
Speaker 6: the window was open, and that was, you know, not
Speaker 6: the norm. She went knocking on neighbors doors and uh
Speaker 6: and nobody had had seen or heard anything. She went
Speaker 6: home and and they called the police right away. You know,
Speaker 6: she got her husband up and and they called the police,
Speaker 6: and that started the well, you know, the beginnings of
Speaker 6: this terrible, terrible ordeal. I mean, I've talked with a
Speaker 6: lot of parents whose children or loved ones are missing.
Speaker 6: But you know, she lived the next fifty years of
Speaker 6: her life not knowing what had happened.
Speaker 4: Yeah, you introduced a couple of characters that are in
Speaker 4: this story from the beginning and almost through to the end.
Speaker 4: A couple of detectives, very colorful guys, Detectives Adkovich and
Speaker 4: Detective Strand. And you say that these people are there
Speaker 4: on the scene very quickly. I suppose to a lot
Speaker 4: of stories where people say that someone's missing. This girl's
Speaker 4: eight years old. The police are there right away, there
Speaker 4: is a search. You also talk about the setup because
Speaker 4: they believe that if it's a kidnapping, that they're certainly
Speaker 4: going to be a ransom or of somebody asking for
Speaker 4: a ransom. And in response, what did the police do
Speaker 4: and set up at the BurrH home.
Speaker 6: Well, try, I'm trying to think of what exactly they
Speaker 6: they Uh, I they did expect a ransom, and the
Speaker 6: history of cases in Tacoma is that there would be
Speaker 6: a ransom, you know, just just uh, twenty years before this,
Speaker 6: there was the famous kidnapping of uh George Warehouser's son
Speaker 6: of the Warehouser, the lumber magnet, whose son was uh
Speaker 6: completely just take taken off a city street one day,
Speaker 6: uh as a teenager, and uh the ransom you know,
Speaker 6: was paid and and he was found the same day
Speaker 6: but there was also a famous murder uh again in
Speaker 6: the thirties of uh the boy who somebody'd come right
Speaker 6: into his father's house and taken this child away, and
Speaker 6: at that point that was the largest missing person's search
Speaker 6: I think in America. Then in the thirties, not long
Speaker 6: after the Lenburgh kidnapping, and uh that boy was finally found,
Speaker 6: uh murdered. But uh so they were expecting, they were
Speaker 6: expecting ransom demands and lots of times uh ransom demands,
Speaker 6: you know, something goes wrong, but uh, they they were
Speaker 6: expecting that. And yes, they did respond right away.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 6: First of all, the patrol car went to the house,
Speaker 6: but soon soon after the detectives did. And they they
Speaker 6: took this seriously, Uh from the very beginning. It's amazing
Speaker 6: how they needed to take it, you know, seriously, and
Speaker 6: that they just didn't shrug it off as a childhood
Speaker 6: you know, wandered away to you know, get breakfast at
Speaker 6: the neighbor's house or something.
Speaker 4: You talk about. Also that they set up tape recording
Speaker 4: in the basement. All the phones were they were ready
Speaker 4: to be monitored or they were monitored, ready for somebody
Speaker 4: to call and then to follow that up and put
Speaker 4: potential ransom. So that's what was set up, and the
Speaker 4: police were in their home for thirty days at least
Speaker 4: in the beginning. You also talk about that. Of course,
Speaker 4: as part of the investigation, they knock on neighbors doors,
Speaker 4: Don joined a group of searchers made up of police
Speaker 4: and volunteers. Hundreds of National guardsmen were scouring fields and
Speaker 4: Tacoma waterways. But you also talk about that there was
Speaker 4: they had to question a couple of friends, and right
Speaker 4: away there's a fifteen year old boy that becomes at
Speaker 4: least someone to you know, not a suspect necessarily, but
Speaker 4: at least somebody they want to talk to because he
Speaker 4: is friends with younger children and he's fifteen years old.
Speaker 4: Is Robert Brews, and.
Speaker 6: He lived two doors away, and uh, the police were
Speaker 6: suspicious of him because he seemed to like to kind
Speaker 6: of play and hang out with the younger children, and
Speaker 6: they gave him In those days, you know, the p
Speaker 6: I mean really, law enforcement could do pretty much what
Speaker 6: it wanted to. They went to his school and dragged
Speaker 6: him out of school and took him down for a
Speaker 6: light detector. No parent, you know, around or on this
Speaker 6: scene at all, and he he did not pass his
Speaker 6: first lie detector test, and uh he he was cleared
Speaker 6: by the second one. But uh you know, I found
Speaker 6: him and tracked him down and it got to know
Speaker 6: him and talk to him, and he was just you know,
Speaker 6: scared to death, and you know, the police were pretty
Speaker 6: rough with him, not in a physical way, but you know,
Speaker 6: scared the daylights out of him. So he uh he,
Speaker 6: he stayed on their list, but kind of you know,
Speaker 6: at the bottom of the list, and they just had
Speaker 6: you know, it's just just really tough, no no obvious clues.
Speaker 4: Yeah. I was going to ask if there was any
Speaker 4: evidence left that the police could use, but there was
Speaker 4: little even evidence of anyone entering the home, if I'm
Speaker 4: not correct.
Speaker 6: Yeah, they found a footprint, excuse me, a footprint on
Speaker 6: the steps tool that was outside that looked to be
Speaker 6: the size of a teenage boy's a footprint, And they
Speaker 6: did spend a little time going to shoe stores in
Speaker 6: Tacoma trying to see if they could find something, you know,
Speaker 6: with a tread like that, and never really completely tracked
Speaker 6: it down. Now we know, we know decades later that
Speaker 6: something I don't know if it was a tissue in
Speaker 6: the house or you know, they said there were a
Speaker 6: few leaves of grass on the floor. And I'm jumping
Speaker 6: ahead here, but but you know, in uh just uh
Speaker 6: oh five years ago or so, they actually uh did
Speaker 6: some DNA testing on something they had kept from the
Speaker 6: house in nineteen sixty one, and they won't even tell uh,
Speaker 6: you know, Anne's siblings what what it was. But uh
Speaker 6: it was with with no uh you know, success or
Speaker 6: conclusion of the the testing of it. So there was
Speaker 6: some there was something. I don't know if it was,
Speaker 6: you know, the sheep they had kept her, oh what
Speaker 6: it was, because there's no there's no sign in the
Speaker 6: police report, you know, all all thousand pages of it,
Speaker 6: that anything was kept from her bedroom. And also Rubert
Speaker 6: was went upstairs because Anne was kind of used to
Speaker 6: being up and down during the night, and she may
Speaker 6: have come downstairs and you know, recognized somebody she knew.
Speaker 4: Right for the reader, you also have a parallel story,
Speaker 4: of course, and you introduced the connection between Ted Bundy
Speaker 4: and the Burrs in terms of geographical just being in
Speaker 4: the neighborhood and being in Tacoma. So you talk about
Speaker 4: that there was a friend named Sandy Holt and she'd
Speaker 4: spend most of her time, you say, trailing after her
Speaker 4: older brother, Doug, and Doug was best friends with Ted Bundy,
Speaker 4: and you talk about some of the things that she
Speaker 4: remembers from that time. I guess it would be important
Speaker 4: obviously to understand the character. But tell us what she
Speaker 4: said about some of the things that she remembers Ted
Speaker 4: being famous for when he was young.
Speaker 6: Well, let me preface this by saying that if you're
Speaker 6: going to write a book about Ted Bundy, you have
Speaker 6: to find something new and something to say. And I
Speaker 6: my entree into this was, you know, the birdcase. But
Speaker 6: then I very much worked to find people who'd never
Speaker 6: been interviewed, and one of them was Sandy Holt, this
Speaker 6: woman now in her mid sixties whose a brother was
Speaker 6: Ted's best friend, and she had photographs of the three
Speaker 6: of them together and celebrating, you know, a birthday at
Speaker 6: a birthday party and the boys were in cub Scouts,
Speaker 6: and you know, she uh had very clear memories of
Speaker 6: Ted and of some of the memories were of what
Speaker 6: he was up to as a youngster. You know, they
Speaker 6: would play in the woods and she said that he
Speaker 6: would uh she saw him, you know uh uh, you
Speaker 6: know violate animals and cut up birds and the things
Speaker 6: we kind of think of uh as uh, how serial
Speaker 6: killers start their careers are frequently you know, animal abuse.
Speaker 6: She saw some of that. And she also said he
Speaker 6: liked to you know, drag little girls into the woods
Speaker 6: and and urinate on them and uh. And then she
Speaker 6: told a story about her father's hidden uh stash pornography
Speaker 6: and how Ted you know, as a young person, had
Speaker 6: found that and and uh. And she also believed that
Speaker 6: her father, on a scouting trip, on a boy scout trip, uh,
Speaker 6: you know, possibly molested Ted that they were seeing, you know,
Speaker 6: coming out of a tent together and kind of right
Speaker 6: getting dressed. Uh. So her her brother is you know,
Speaker 6: off for the the radar these days, so I never
Speaker 6: spoke with him. But then she talked about, uh remembering
Speaker 6: Anne Burr from the neighborhood. And so she's the only
Speaker 6: person I ever found or heard of who knew both
Speaker 6: Ted and Anne. Everybody always said, and even ends and
Speaker 6: mothers said, well, you know, she'd ch and didn't know
Speaker 6: Ted Bundy, who was a little bit older, he was fourteen.
Speaker 6: He'd lived in that neighborhood when he and his mother
Speaker 6: first came uh West. Uh. They lived with his uncle
Speaker 6: in the neighborhood, and later his mother had married and
Speaker 6: they'd moved a little bit uh further north. But he's
Speaker 6: still you know, h roamed around in his bicycle and
Speaker 6: and he was a paper boy. He wasn't the Burr's
Speaker 6: paper boy, but you know, those were the days when
Speaker 6: you know, children could just roam.
Speaker 4: Right m M. Now there's as any Bundy fan and
Speaker 4: people listening to this program, I've read probably numerous books
Speaker 4: and listened to numerous programs about Ted Bundy. So there
Speaker 4: is the story. Uh again, there's some of the familiar
Speaker 4: in there, that how uh Ted Bundy had a problem
Speaker 4: with his origins of his birth and then his mother
Speaker 4: not knowing the origins of his parents and his mother Louise,
Speaker 4: and then the idea that he idolized his great uncle
Speaker 4: or great uncle Robert Cowell, and some of that lifestyle.
Speaker 4: So as you talk about in the book the psychological
Speaker 4: aspects of Ted Bundy forming at this time with a
Speaker 4: conflict over his parents, but also this adoration of his
Speaker 4: great uncle and that lifestyle tell us a little bit
Speaker 4: about that.
Speaker 6: Well, Ted was illegitimate. His mother was living with her
Speaker 6: parents in Pennsylvania, and she never ever told anybody who
Speaker 6: his father was. And she went to a home front
Speaker 6: with mother's in Vermont and had the baby, and then
Speaker 6: she left and her plan was to put him up
Speaker 6: for adoption, and her father, so Tid's grandfather insisted that
Speaker 6: she go back and get the baby. So we know that,
Speaker 6: you know, that first few months is is pretty critical
Speaker 6: for a child ben you know, held and loved and nurtured,
Speaker 6: and so he was you know, on his own in
Speaker 6: this uh on wo mother's orphanage for for several months,
Speaker 6: and then they came back to Pennsylvania, and you know,
Speaker 6: they're all kinds of you know, there are just so
Speaker 6: many stories and so many myths out there. Uh. One
Speaker 6: of them is that his mother made him believe that
Speaker 6: she was his sister and his grandparents were his parents,
Speaker 6: and uh then he didn't you know, he suddenly was
Speaker 6: you know, a young adult, a teenager in his twenties
Speaker 6: when he learned about his true parentage and and various
Speaker 6: opinions on how that uh might've set him off. The
Speaker 6: closest I could get to d confirming any of that
Speaker 6: is that later in life, when Ted was on death
Speaker 6: row and there was a pro bono attorney working with
Speaker 6: him to get him, uh a new sentence, not a
Speaker 6: new Chriald, but a new sentence because in fact, his
Speaker 6: his conviction for killing the Sorority sisters in Florida and
Speaker 6: and Kimberly Leach had he he would never let anything
Speaker 6: about his childhood or's background be entered into evidence. And
Speaker 6: you know, there were some some stories about uh uh,
Speaker 6: you know, psychological abuse and being exposed to his grandfather's abuse,
Speaker 6: not of Ted, but of of the grandfather's you know,
Speaker 6: wife and and children. And so finally uh uh and
Speaker 6: then Dorothy ought Now Lewis, who is a psychiatrist to Yale,
Speaker 6: who uh helped with that. With that last effort to
Speaker 6: get him a new trial, they spoke with Ted's mother,
Speaker 6: who finally admitted that there had been a lot of
Speaker 6: abuse in her childhood home where he spent his first
Speaker 6: five years. And I'll never forget, I mean, Dorothy Lewis
Speaker 6: said that she'd seen this before, that a parent would
Speaker 6: rather their child be executed than than admits to family secrets.
Speaker 4: Wow.
Speaker 6: And uh so they also spoke with one of his aunts,
Speaker 6: who confirmed the stories of the the you know, the
Speaker 6: manic the manic grandfather mad, the manic depression grandmother. What
Speaker 6: Ted would have seen that that infrom the story about
Speaker 6: when he was three years old and placed knives around,
Speaker 6: you know, his teenage aunt to to scare her. Just
Speaker 6: so a lot of that was, you know, confirmed back then.
Speaker 6: It's just really hard many years after, you know, after
Speaker 6: these crimes and after somebody has been executed, to really
Speaker 6: sort out, you know, what is myth and and what
Speaker 6: his reality. And frankly sometimes I leave it up to
Speaker 6: the to the reader, but but I tried to sort
Speaker 6: it out. So he terms and he he did idolize
Speaker 6: this uncle, his great uncle that they lived with, who was,
Speaker 6: you know, a music professor, and you know he and
Speaker 6: his family had lived in Europe and traveled and and
Speaker 6: that's what that's what Ted wanted at an early age,
Speaker 6: you know, not the blue collar stepfather that he had.
Speaker 4: You also talk about part of the psychological development or
Speaker 4: lack of was that he it seemed to be something
Speaker 4: happened and as you write in the book later, there's
Speaker 4: something indefinable that it's happened that affected him, and he
Speaker 4: became more of a loner and antisocial and seemed to
Speaker 4: not fit in whatsoever. So you talk about some of
Speaker 4: the things that he gravitated towards, and he admits later
Speaker 4: again we're jumping head a little bit in terms of
Speaker 4: the things that he would have looked at that would
Speaker 4: have influenced him. We talk about pornography, but we also
Speaker 4: talk about detective magazines. Tell us a little bit about
Speaker 4: what you write about about that influence and what he
Speaker 4: may even have read in those magazines.
Speaker 6: Are you talking about a True Detective and true crime magazines?
Speaker 6: And yeah, and so that was they were really in
Speaker 6: their heyday when he was growing up in the nineteen fifties,
Speaker 6: and he did, you know, just like he would find
Speaker 6: an adult stash of pornography, you know, he he wo,
Speaker 6: he was drawn to these you know, rather uh violent
Speaker 6: depictions of I I mean I've I've looked at those
Speaker 6: magazines and and uh and Anne Marie Birth's you know,
Speaker 6: disappearance was the subject of one of them, uh six
Speaker 6: years after she disappeared in True Detective. And usually I
Speaker 6: mean they're quite violent depictions of uh, violence against women.
Speaker 6: And uh that's what he would have seen in reading
Speaker 6: those was was you know, a million ways to you know,
Speaker 6: the women are always the victim. And except for the
Speaker 6: very very you know, lone woman who you know is
Speaker 6: is or self committing mur murder. But uh, there there
Speaker 6: they were quite you know, quite violent depictions, and he
Speaker 6: he was you know, drawn to that, you know, as
Speaker 6: you you know, near the end of his life. Well,
Speaker 6: the night before he was executed, he did an interview
Speaker 6: and blaming pornography for his you know, for his killing.
Speaker 6: But you know, nobody, nobody in the world believes that
Speaker 6: pornography leads to you know, it doesn't make you a
Speaker 6: serial killer. So, you know, there were a lot of
Speaker 6: things that were influences on Ted.
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Speaker 4: Now back to this investigation with the frantic Burr family,
Speaker 4: Bev and Dawn and the other children she had. Anne
Speaker 4: Marie had a sister named Julie, was a little bit older,
Speaker 4: fifteen years old, and you said she was affected the
Speaker 4: most other children. In fact, the one sister that was
Speaker 4: with her that evening before was only three years old,
Speaker 4: so police could not even question her, could not hypnotize her,
Speaker 4: couldn't get any information out. So the police are setting up,
Speaker 4: continuing monitoring telephones again incredible, hundreds of people involved in searches,
Speaker 4: psychics trying to weigh in, and so the police had
Speaker 4: to follow every lead, and so the police were frantic
Speaker 4: as well to try to solve this case. For any
Speaker 4: suspects to come up. They questioned don of course, which
Speaker 4: is routine, but tell us where they were in terms
Speaker 4: of shortly after a month later, where were they in
Speaker 4: this investigation with Zachkevich and Strand? What did they know
Speaker 4: what they had found?
Speaker 6: Well, let me correct one thing. Julie was seven, So
Speaker 6: Anne Marie Burr was the oldest. Anne was the oldest
Speaker 6: of eight and a half, so five children under the
Speaker 6: age of eight and a half, and so Julie was seven,
Speaker 6: and of course became then the rest of her life.
Speaker 6: She was the oldest sibling in the family. They of
Speaker 6: course they knew, I mean even then, how important the
Speaker 6: first few hours are of a search. Tacoma is I
Speaker 6: mean it was you know, it's south of it's about
Speaker 6: an hour's south of Seattle. The the thing that made
Speaker 6: it a difficult area to search is that it's, you know,
Speaker 6: surrounded by a water on three sides. There are bridges
Speaker 6: leading to you know, peninsulas and islands, ah off of it.
Speaker 6: It's I it just it's an I A very difficult
Speaker 6: It was a very difficult thing to search. They also searched,
Speaker 6: they searched the the sewers and and I think you know,
Speaker 6: one of the pro you know, possibly UH really important
Speaker 6: place was that, as I mentioned, they were just they
Speaker 6: lived just a block from this university. And so one
Speaker 6: of the things I did was, you know, look at
Speaker 6: all the sewer plans from nineteen sixty one, and at
Speaker 6: everything all the building instruction going on because Ted it's said,
Speaker 6: he you know, put her in a in a ditch,
Speaker 6: and there were seven buildings under construction, uh on the campus,
Speaker 6: just the block from the birds. And in looking at
Speaker 6: all of that, there's a story that in in the
Speaker 6: police report, and and that of course Bevi had told
Speaker 6: me that when Dawn, her father and his brother Raally
Speaker 6: are out walking around searching, helping search for her, this
Speaker 6: is just in the first few hours of the first day,
Speaker 6: they see uh a building site, and that there's kind
Speaker 6: of a young man or a teenager standing by this
Speaker 6: deep ditch and kind of playing with the gravel with
Speaker 6: his shoe, and who who looked right at them, and later,
Speaker 6: i mean decades later, Ted said he stood and watched
Speaker 6: as the people were searching for this girl and maybe
Speaker 6: she was in that same ditch already, maybe she wasn't.
Speaker 6: Dawn went back, uh to the house and told the police,
Speaker 6: you know, you've got to you've gotta look at these
Speaker 6: building sites on the campus, and they're all these you know,
Speaker 6: ditches and and uh, you know, basements being being constructed
Speaker 6: and literally in the in the police report. Three days later,
Speaker 6: they go up to check and the area where he'd
Speaker 6: somebody seen somebody standing had been filled in. Yeah, they
Speaker 6: were too late, and it wasn't you know, within their
Speaker 6: capability to necessarily tear up you know, tear up a
Speaker 6: roadway or ah, a building site, uh, just in case,
Speaker 6: you know, somebody had been buried there a few days before.
Speaker 6: So that that's one of the most part stopping I
Speaker 6: think moments in the in the search is that, you know,
Speaker 6: Ted later said he was watching the search and standing
Speaker 6: near a ditch, so they the it was very it's
Speaker 6: it's really, you know, kind of interesting to look at
Speaker 6: this as far as what how did we cover missing
Speaker 6: children in nineteen sixty one? What was what was the
Speaker 6: media doing then? Of course it was very different. There
Speaker 6: was you know, there was I don't know one or
Speaker 6: two television stations in Seattle, certainly nothing in Tacoma. And
Speaker 6: there there was a day when a TV camera made
Speaker 6: the trip from Seattle to Tacoma to film some of
Speaker 6: the search, but that was about it besides the local paper,
Speaker 6: the Tacoma News Tribune. One thing that Bev was very
Speaker 6: savvy at was knowing that it was kind of up
Speaker 6: to her in the family to keep to keep Anne's
Speaker 6: name and face in the media, and so for or
Speaker 6: you know, for forty five years, whenever there was an anniversary,
Speaker 6: whenever it was Anne's birthday, you know, Bev would contact
Speaker 6: the newspaper and make sure that there were some follow
Speaker 6: up stories. And you know, nobody knew who Ted Bundy
Speaker 6: was in nineteen sixty one because he was a fourteen
Speaker 6: year old neighbor kid. But then later, you know, later
Speaker 6: in the eighties, when they you know, knew who he
Speaker 6: was and when he kind of you know, confessed in
Speaker 6: the third person to this crime, then there were a
Speaker 6: whole of course, a whole lot more stories.
Speaker 4: Let's go back a little bit, because you say, six
Speaker 4: years after Anne's disappearance, the Burrs adopted a baby girl
Speaker 4: named Laura. They finally sold their home just because of
Speaker 4: the bad memories for Bev and the family. And then
Speaker 4: you talk about again the frustrated police zach Vich and Strand.
Speaker 3: But.
Speaker 4: You talk about a couple very real suspects in terms
Speaker 4: of the police interest come up and starts with a
Speaker 4: ten year old gay Lynn Stewart Is they call it
Speaker 4: strangely missing met a man at amusement park. So how
Speaker 4: does this relate to this crime? And then what happens
Speaker 4: that they find out about somebody named Larkie, a man
Speaker 4: named Ralph Everett Larky. So how do they finally or
Speaker 4: suddenly get a couple suspects in this cold, cold case.
Speaker 6: Well one is that two or three years after Anne disappeared,
Speaker 6: this ten year old girl is suddenly missing from a
Speaker 6: city park. And she had as opposed to Anne's kind
Speaker 6: of m you know, very closed nurturing, uh strict family. Uh.
Speaker 6: This girl, I was I think she'd you know, she'd
Speaker 6: said she'd run away for the day or something. But she, uh,
Speaker 6: you know, got into a car with a man who
Speaker 6: stopped his car uh at the park and Uh, she
Speaker 6: was reported missing later that day or the next day,
Speaker 6: and uh, they went off on a on a joy ride.
Speaker 6: And I I don't mean to suggest that she was
Speaker 6: you know, implicit in this, but right he he drove,
Speaker 6: they drove around, They went to I believe, Idaho, and
Speaker 6: and uh maybe into Oregon, and he had her hair cut,
Speaker 6: he bought her new clothes, and and there were there
Speaker 6: were stories that were wondering if this is gonna be
Speaker 6: another annory birthcase. But then he'd he drives her b
Speaker 6: up to Tacoma after four or five days and lets
Speaker 6: her out at a candy store and he just drives away,
Speaker 6: and she goes into the store and somebody says, aren't
Speaker 6: you know, aren't you gay in and she denies it,
Speaker 6: but they call the police and and she's found and
Speaker 6: she is actually uh imagine there were some other family
Speaker 6: dynamics at work because she was kind of held in
Speaker 6: protective custody and not didn't necessarily, you know, run home
Speaker 6: to the welcoming arms of her her parents right away.
Speaker 6: And and she always you know, denied that there'd been
Speaker 6: anything untoward, but uh, it was it was very strange.
Speaker 6: And then they tracked him finally to a motel in Portland,
Speaker 6: and just as they're you know, knocking on the door
Speaker 6: and identifying themselves, uh, he shoots himself. So it's it's
Speaker 6: just hard to you know, they never found any connection
Speaker 6: between him and Anne were but it was a very
Speaker 6: strange case. One of the other uh odd ones is
Speaker 6: that in the uh uh I'd have to look at
Speaker 6: my book. I think it was in the nineteen seventies,
Speaker 6: there was an inmate in Oklahoma who confessed to the crime,
Speaker 6: and they thought enough of his uh his story that
Speaker 6: they flew him out to Oregon and and the Tacoma
Speaker 6: police went down and he said he and a friend
Speaker 6: had been uh picking beans in Oregon that summer and
Speaker 6: had uh gone up to driven up to Tacoma to
Speaker 6: try to find work. Uh you know, there are a
Speaker 6: lot of orchards in Washington State, and that they had,
Speaker 6: you know, just randomly, you know, taken Anne out of
Speaker 6: the house. They they and left and then took her
Speaker 6: back to Oregon into this bean field and they actually
Speaker 6: went digging to see if if they could uh find anything,
Speaker 6: and they didn't find anything. But also there'd been kind
Speaker 6: of the major flood uh in all that time that
Speaker 6: had passed and everything was you know different on the
Speaker 6: farm and uh uh so they didn't find anything there,
Speaker 6: and he was you know, taken back to Oklahoma and
Speaker 6: and went back to his life in prison. But I mean,
Speaker 6: they're they're really curious stories just didn't seem to lead anywhere.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's very he looked like an incredible lead because
Speaker 4: he contacts poor Don Burr and then he forwards the
Speaker 4: letter to do Coma's police. He said he knew where
Speaker 4: Anne's whereabouts were and then he it was interesting because
Speaker 4: he he said, well, I just want the reward money
Speaker 4: to go to his wife and kids. He didn't want
Speaker 4: anything else, So it seemed like he did he had
Speaker 4: a sort of altruistic motive here for this. But then
Speaker 4: the stories changed in Oregon.
Speaker 6: Yeah, you know, the other the other interesting. I mean,
Speaker 6: with a lot of cases, they are just these you know,
Speaker 6: twists and turns that that may or may not ever
Speaker 6: lead anywhere. But the other one was that there was
Speaker 6: another Don Burr in Tacoma. He was much, you know,
Speaker 6: better off than our Don Burr. But this other Don
Speaker 6: was an architect and had a daughter who was about
Speaker 6: the same age as Anne, and he would have been
Speaker 6: able to respond to a ransom demand. And he always
Speaker 6: felt himself that they meant him as the target.
Speaker 4: Well to to sort of corroborate that McLish, the Richard
Speaker 4: McLish had said that he'd changed his story, but he
Speaker 4: had also said that that they had taken the wrong child.
Speaker 4: At first he said these other men had taken the child,
Speaker 4: and they said, well, they had taken the wrong child,
Speaker 4: So that lent some credibility to this story. And and
Speaker 4: and he'd even sketched a map of the farm. So
Speaker 4: the police really did think they had something with this guy,
Speaker 4: didn't they.
Speaker 6: Yes, And he'd actually lived, he'd picked beans on that farm,
Speaker 6: and he and his wife and this other, this buddy
Speaker 6: of his, and and you know, once says he as
Speaker 6: a young person growing up in Oregon, I remember being
Speaker 6: taken on a field trip to see how these migrant
Speaker 6: workers lived. And right, you know, pretty pretty bad in
Speaker 6: the the nineteen sixties, you know, just these tiny little
Speaker 6: little shacks. And and but so I you know, that
Speaker 6: didn't seem to go anywhere either the the other. You
Speaker 6: know that they'd taken the wrong kid. And if they
Speaker 6: wouldn't you think they'd check the address of you know
Speaker 6: of Don Burr, the architect, and and Don Burr the
Speaker 6: you know, he'd called himself a you know, just a
Speaker 6: lunch bucket because he he worked on a on a base.
Speaker 6: But they they you know, that was never proven.
Speaker 4: You write about Dawn continuing to talk to the police,
Speaker 4: offering them hunches and what he thought might be leads,
Speaker 4: and friends described it as you write in the book
Speaker 4: that he was obsessed with her disappearance always, wasn't he.
Speaker 6: Yeah, so I I didn't meet Don. He had he
Speaker 6: had died a a few years before I started, uh
Speaker 6: meeting with Bev. But I I I m. You know,
Speaker 6: BEV said he was he was somewhat obsessed. The other
Speaker 6: thing is I mean I know from meeting with her
Speaker 6: for you know, basically she spent the last year of
Speaker 6: her life talking to me for a whole year when
Speaker 6: she was eighty and uh hundreds and hundreds and hundreds
Speaker 6: of hours and she I mean, I know she was obsessed.
Speaker 6: And she was usually the one to contact the police
Speaker 6: or to you know, think that the call from the
Speaker 6: psychic was worth looking into. She's the one with the
Speaker 6: other kids in tow. She would take flyers around, you know,
Speaker 6: she made the flyers. She'd take flyers around to businesses
Speaker 6: and ask them to post them, and you know some would.
Speaker 6: And then she was the one faced face with people
Speaker 6: in town who decided, you know, that she was guilty
Speaker 6: of killing her daughter, and you know, people with say
Speaker 6: things right to her face, you know, holding her accountable.
Speaker 6: And so she she was always kind of the face
Speaker 6: on this case, even from from nineteen sixty one on.
Speaker 6: But and again she made sure that on any anniversary,
Speaker 6: you know, there was a photograph she and Dawn and
Speaker 6: the two detectives, you know, sitting and talking, going over things. Uh, anytime,
Speaker 6: you know, when they had a tree planted in Anne's
Speaker 6: memory at their at their Catholic paris, just you know, anything,
Speaker 6: she and that that's what parents, uh do you know.
Speaker 6: I've interviewed parents who when their child is missing, they
Speaker 6: call ed Smart, the father of Elizabeth Smart and Utah
Speaker 6: say what do we need to do? And his advice
Speaker 6: is his first piece of advice you keep their name
Speaker 6: and picture in the media.
Speaker 4: Right.
Speaker 7: Well, so, yeah, pardon me story, or would you say,
Speaker 7: Bev didn't you know, lock herself away and and and.
Speaker 6: Grieve in that way at all? She she grieved terribly
Speaker 6: and she stayed. You know, her marriage had never been
Speaker 6: very strong. If if Anne hadn't disappeared, Bed might have
Speaker 6: separated from her husband, even with the young children, because
Speaker 6: he was uh a rather domineering. Uh you know, he
Speaker 6: could be a boy, and her children witnessed that. But
Speaker 6: he was also you know, uh, very very loyal as
Speaker 6: far as trying to find out what happened to his daughter.
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Speaker 4: blue Apron A better way to cook Now, Rebecca, we
Speaker 4: have obviously this horrible situation for the Burr family, affecting
Speaker 4: their entire family, all the children and them. Don has
Speaker 4: been questioned and cleared. Don's relatives were even looked at
Speaker 4: seriously by the police or looked at by the police.
Speaker 4: But we're talking about now something to give them a
Speaker 4: little bit of hope. You're talking We fast forward to
Speaker 4: Ted Bundy on death row and all of the people
Speaker 4: that he's cooperating with. These books published about Ted Bundy
Speaker 4: and his crimes. But there is a Stephen Mashad and
Speaker 4: his partner Ainsworthy Ainsworth, Hugh Ainsworth, that are given you say,
Speaker 4: unprecedented access Ted Bundy. Some people have read a little
Speaker 4: bit about it. But let's talk about what kind of
Speaker 4: hope the burs had after Stephen Mashad had been interviewing
Speaker 4: Ted Bundy. Tell us how this comes about a little
Speaker 4: bit of optimism, a little bit of hope for the
Speaker 4: Burr family.
Speaker 6: Well, and I think you're also probably talking about the
Speaker 6: the nineteen eighty seven story about his hypothetical confession to
Speaker 6: absolutely to Ronald Holmes, who is a surreal so in
Speaker 6: the eighties, with Ted on death row, you know, he becomes,
Speaker 6: of course, you know, the subject of uh of numerous
Speaker 6: books and theories, and everybody wants to uh understand uh
Speaker 6: you know Ted Bundy, and particularly as the clock is
Speaker 6: ticking because he's on death row in Florida and the
Speaker 6: governor there is not going to make any any deals
Speaker 6: at all. So Stephen Michaud and Hugh Ainsworth too, you know,
Speaker 6: very prominent and respected UH journalists, UH get Tid's UH
Speaker 6: approval to UH audio tape some UH interviews with him
Speaker 6: in uh in prison and you know, uh for your
Speaker 6: listeners if if they haven't to haven't read uh their
Speaker 6: uh interviews with Ted, it's it's really worth reading. And
Speaker 6: one of the things I wanted to do, uh in
Speaker 6: my book was to look at Ted's own words, and
Speaker 6: I I think we often don't do that enough with
Speaker 6: with the suspect is you know, what did they say about?
Speaker 6: And Ted would speak in the third person about about
Speaker 6: his crimes, but he did tell Michaud and Ainsworth about
Speaker 6: you know, he kind of re enacted he he'd loved
Speaker 6: being you know, dramatic and being of course the the
Speaker 6: subject of every everybody's attention, and he was you know,
Speaker 6: he was a compulsive liar, and he was you know
Speaker 6: just uh, you know, really evil. But you know, given
Speaker 6: all that he'd he would tell the story about how special,
Speaker 6: you know, his very first crime was, and especially if
Speaker 6: it was a child, and that you keep that you
Speaker 6: don't ever confess that, you keep that really close to
Speaker 6: you because that first crime is so special. But he
Speaker 6: also kind of you know, reenacted taking taking a child
Speaker 6: from a house and then in in nineteen eighty seven,
Speaker 6: so about the same time as the recordings there's a
Speaker 6: uh uh Louisville researcher, uh Ronald Holmes, who's uh talking
Speaker 6: to serial killers and uh that's in nineteen eighty six,
Speaker 6: and he d he doesn't say what came out of
Speaker 6: it until he's speaking to a law enforcement group in
Speaker 6: Colorado in nineteen eighty seven. Course the state where Ted
Speaker 6: escaped twice from jail. Uh it was in Colorado. But
Speaker 6: he talks about, you know that Ted hypothetically uh killed
Speaker 6: a girl when he was eight years old. Well, of
Speaker 6: course that has been all over the newspapers, uh nationally
Speaker 6: and out here, and that does give uh v ber
Speaker 6: some hope. And she begins a written correspondence with Ted
Speaker 6: and uh and I I print some of their their
Speaker 6: letters in the book where you know, she basically is
Speaker 6: imploring him, you know, I he has nothing to lose by,
Speaker 6: you know, by saying if he killed Anne or not.
Speaker 6: And and he just you know, to the very end
Speaker 6: just uh denies it. But he had re enacted for
Speaker 6: for Ronald Holmes, UH, you know, taking taking this girl
Speaker 6: from taking a girl from the house to the orchard
Speaker 6: next door and there was an orchard next to the birds,
Speaker 6: and assaulting her and strangling her and putting her in
Speaker 6: a ditch. So I don't think the Tacoma police ever,
Speaker 6: you know, once once they knew who who Ted was
Speaker 6: in the seventies and that he lived in Tacoma, and
Speaker 6: then his his so cold confessions in the eighties, and
Speaker 6: then and then even uh, you know, in more recent years.
Speaker 6: I don't think they ever really took him seriously because
Speaker 6: because he was so you know young at the time.
Speaker 6: I'm fourteen, but you know, they're i they did, you know,
Speaker 6: they did check. You know, some DNA of TADS became
Speaker 6: available just a few years ago, and so there are
Speaker 6: you know, cities around the country trying to close cold
Speaker 6: cases by by having you know, checking his DNA, because
Speaker 6: he said he he alluded to hundreds of killings and
Speaker 6: said he killed for instance, you know, young women in
Speaker 6: California where there was never anything attributed to him. So
Speaker 6: he may have just been you know, you know, toying
Speaker 6: with law enforcement, which he loved to do, or maybe
Speaker 6: you know, but so far, there hasn't been anything you know,
Speaker 6: new attributed to him.
Speaker 4: You include though, that when he was speaking hypothetically to
Speaker 4: Ronald Holmes, he said he knew and because of some
Speaker 4: one someone's paper route. He said he'd been in the
Speaker 4: house before, entered the house by the side window, walked
Speaker 4: past the parents' bedroom and up some steps and he
Speaker 4: said he coaxed her out downstairs and he said it
Speaker 4: was an apple orchard next door. Yeah, and he raped,
Speaker 4: killed her, dumped her in a ditch in front of
Speaker 4: the house. He said, maybe a sewer line, and that's
Speaker 4: what we mentioned. He said. The next day he went
Speaker 4: over and watched police talk to the Burrs on the
Speaker 4: front porch, and he said, and had a crush on him.
Speaker 4: What did Holmes did? Did Holmes believe what Bundy had
Speaker 4: said despite what other people thought? He did?
Speaker 6: And he still and he still does. And you know
Speaker 6: there are lots of other people, including law enforcement at
Speaker 6: the time, who and who today just you know, shrugged
Speaker 6: that off as that's that's kind of Ted being Ted.
Speaker 6: But it opened up this you know, written conversation that
Speaker 6: that BEV could have with him. You know, It's just
Speaker 6: I don't know, and I I've been giving a lot
Speaker 6: of thought recently. I as you know, as I say,
Speaker 6: Ted Bundy is alive and well on the internet, they're
Speaker 6: they're you know, their books, they're h couple of documentaries
Speaker 6: coming out. There's the feature film, uh schedules for next year.
Speaker 6: You know, there have been TV movies and and like
Speaker 6: other authors, you know, I wanted to kind of find out,
Speaker 6: you know, what made Ted ted. But it reminds me.
Speaker 6: I don't know if you've ever read Ron Rosenbaum's work,
Speaker 6: but his book Explaining Hitler, which I find a lot
Speaker 6: of parallels to this, is that is that we get
Speaker 6: caught up and trying to you know, it becomes a
Speaker 6: cottage industry trying to explain Ted Bundy, like trying to
Speaker 6: explain Hitler, you know, and understand, well, why, you know,
Speaker 6: what makes a person like this. Dorothy Ottell Lewis, the
Speaker 6: psychiatrist from Yale, wanted Ted to you know, donate his brain,
Speaker 6: uh after he was executed, and and he you know,
Speaker 6: refused to. But there are a lot of people doing
Speaker 6: uh brain research of of murderers and prisons and of
Speaker 6: serial killers. And you know a lot of them have
Speaker 6: had some head injury as a child that perhaps contributed
Speaker 6: to you know, and and a very obviously a rocky childhood,
Speaker 6: uh contributes to to you know, committing crimes later. There's
Speaker 6: no doubt about that. But isn't it interesting how you
Speaker 6: know we consider I think people look at Ted Bundy
Speaker 6: as kind of the heart throb of serial killers. Yeah,
Speaker 6: and because you know, he was good looking and charming
Speaker 6: and and uh, I'm gonna digress here a little bit more.
Speaker 6: But I thought a lot dan about you know, if
Speaker 6: you took Ted Bundy versus Gary Ridgeway, who yuh you
Speaker 6: know is on dethro and Washington State, but we don't
Speaker 6: w you know, we have a ban against executions. But
Speaker 6: but you know, Gary Ridgeway uh admitted to forty nine
Speaker 6: killings and they're possibly more. But you know, Ted was
Speaker 6: good looking. Gary Ridgeway was not Uh Ted had these
Speaker 6: you know, white pretty co ed victims. You know, Gary
Speaker 6: rag Ridgeway killed basically African American prostitutes. And and but
Speaker 6: there's a fascination with you know, uh Ted Bundy that is,
Speaker 6: you know, far beyond any kind fascination with Gary Ridgeway.
Speaker 6: It's just that's something I've been thinking about lately, is
Speaker 6: you know, why does somebody capture the imagination like Ted
Speaker 6: Bundy and somebody else doesn't.
Speaker 4: It's very much like the Bernardo Homalka case, where they
Speaker 4: were better looking people, but I don't know how extraordinarily
Speaker 4: good looking they were. But their victims were innocent school girls,
Speaker 4: fifteen year old schoolgirls, and so definitely the case. The
Speaker 4: stories are incumbent upon good looking victim. I'm sorry to say,
Speaker 4: white good looking victims with that are innocent, that are innocent,
Speaker 4: and otherwise it's almost otherwise they're ignored.
Speaker 6: Well, that's true, and I think there's been some you know,
Speaker 6: the media is beginning to wake up to this in
Speaker 6: Eastern America that you know, there's actually something called missing
Speaker 6: White Women's syndrome that somebody like Susan Powell, who I
Speaker 6: wrote a book about it, you know, and who's missing
Speaker 6: in Utah, Well she got them. She gets media attention
Speaker 6: because she was, you know, twenty nine years old, white
Speaker 6: and pretty and a Mormon, and you know in her city,
Speaker 6: murder is you know, those people aren't going to get
Speaker 6: the same media attention as as as other victims. So
Speaker 6: it depends on, yes, the the age and race and
Speaker 6: of the victim, and if they're attractive or not. And
Speaker 6: you know, how attractive is the murderer.
Speaker 4: Sad, it's sad, but human nature and those are the rules.
Speaker 4: I guess we haven't mentioned and Rule here because and
Speaker 4: Rule late great, and Rule fantastic. Of course, the Queen
Speaker 4: of true crime, I don't know that's a great monker.
Speaker 6: But the genre. I think we could safely say she
Speaker 6: invented true crime. And of course she knew it. And
Speaker 6: you know, her book The Stranger Beside Me is the
Speaker 6: you know, it's it's the Bible as far as what
Speaker 6: we knew about Ted Bundy then. But she was, you know,
Speaker 6: very kind to me. I originally contacted her for you know,
Speaker 6: a blurb on the book, and but I interviewed her
Speaker 6: a few times for Ted Nan and met her in
Speaker 6: person and got to know her a little bit, and
Speaker 6: she was, you know, very supportive, and she absolutely she
Speaker 6: always believed that he had killed Ann Burr. Ann Burr
Speaker 6: is only mentioned in the you know, there's an there's
Speaker 6: an update in the back of The Stranger Beside Me
Speaker 6: maybe from the nineteen nineties, in which she she mentions
Speaker 6: Anberr because you know, when she was writing The Stranger
Speaker 6: Beside Me, no, we just hadn't connected any of adults yet, right,
Speaker 6: But she was and you know, she was a fierce competitor.
Speaker 6: She uh was really you know, I did did some
Speaker 6: some really great work. I I think The Stranger Beside
Speaker 6: Me is a classic, and and you know, I think
Speaker 6: the other book about the case of Diane Downs, who
Speaker 6: you know, shot her children and in Eugene, Oregon, was
Speaker 6: is just a really terrific book too.
Speaker 3: Mm hm.
Speaker 4: Why I mentioned Anne Rule too is because Anne Rule
Speaker 4: would not dare to say that somebody might be involved,
Speaker 4: whether it's Ted or not, unless she believed that the
Speaker 4: murder of and burr Was was perpetrated by Ted Bundy.
Speaker 4: And she believed that, didn't she.
Speaker 6: Sh uh, she she did? Yeah, And I I think
Speaker 6: that lends a credibility. There are other people who you
Speaker 6: know who who don't think so. But you know it,
Speaker 6: I don't know that we'll ever really know for sure.
Speaker 6: Well I don't, you know, I guess we won't. It's
Speaker 6: it's been all these years, and it's just it's something
Speaker 6: that consumed me for the many years I I worked
Speaker 6: on the book, and and I think the you know,
Speaker 6: people ask me, how do you write this kind of thing?
Speaker 6: Over and over and it doesn't get kind of grizzly.
Speaker 6: But I think the only time I actually cried working
Speaker 6: on the book was when I finally put put it
Speaker 6: together that and it wasn't obvious that the spot where
Speaker 6: Dawn had seen, you know, somebody standing over the ditch.
Speaker 6: That then then it was too late when you know,
Speaker 6: when the police went up to check, and that just
Speaker 6: seemed really you know, futile.
Speaker 4: And what what did Bev make and don but what
Speaker 4: did Bev make of the police reluctance to connect her
Speaker 4: daughter's disappearance to the Ted Bunny case despite what Ronald
Speaker 4: Holmes had found? And and the thing is with Ronald Holmes,
Speaker 4: he was not allowed to take a tape recorder in
Speaker 4: as you write in a book, not allowed to tape
Speaker 4: record the conversation, say Buddy in himself.
Speaker 6: So it's yeah, but he you know, he again is
Speaker 6: a credible person. He was a a university professor who
Speaker 6: was also blames the corner UH in the county where
Speaker 6: he UH resided, or the medical examiner. Maybe the medical examiner,
Speaker 6: you know, one of those is actually a non you're
Speaker 6: not a physician, if you're you know, it's it's kind
Speaker 6: of it's it's not doing the autopsy, it's it's doing
Speaker 6: the record keeping or something, or interviewing people. I she
Speaker 6: was never she was never visited at by the police,
Speaker 6: you know, the zach Kovic and Strand after they retired,
Speaker 6: would you know, kind of keep in touch with Bev
Speaker 6: And they told me, I mean their children told me
Speaker 6: they would, you know, they'd meet every week for coffee
Speaker 6: after they're retired and talk about this case and what,
Speaker 6: you know, what the what they could still do even
Speaker 6: in retirement. But nobody ever visited the Burghs, I would
Speaker 6: say after you know, nineteen sixty three, it just was,
Speaker 6: you know, put aside. They kept you know, as you'd
Speaker 6: seen police reports, they if they had a tip or something,
Speaker 6: but there really wasn't much contemporary you know, pretty much
Speaker 6: the police report stops. And I believe sixty two or sixty.
Speaker 4: Three you also talk about that there was numerous people
Speaker 4: that you talk about. A FBI agent Hagmire, and he
Speaker 4: had asked and he was giving weight to the to
Speaker 4: this connection Burr Bundy connection. Bob Keppel did this. He
Speaker 4: considered Ted Bundy as nemesis, and he had done this
Speaker 4: case for fifteen years and he finally met up with
Speaker 4: him in person in Florida. He had asked these questions
Speaker 4: many times when he's asked other times about this connection
Speaker 4: it's not he doesn't do what he did with Ron Holmes, does.
Speaker 6: He No, he doesn't. And I again, you know, we
Speaker 6: try to understand, well, why not what was that about?
Speaker 6: I think it's because I think it was his way
Speaker 6: of like playing with Bob Keppel and with hag Meyer,
Speaker 6: and especially with Keppel. You know, Kepole was part of
Speaker 6: the I believe King County in the state police force
Speaker 6: that was searching for Ted. You know, from nineteen seventy
Speaker 6: four on they had a first name because Ted. When
Speaker 6: he abducted two women from Lake Samamish Park just east
Speaker 6: of Seattle and killed them on the same day, he's
Speaker 6: was overheard as saying his name was Ted. So that
Speaker 6: search for Ted lasted years, and uh supposedly Keppel was
Speaker 6: just very close. You know, they were actually using a
Speaker 6: very early computer to winnow down you know, the people
Speaker 6: who owned tan volkswagens and you know who had lived
Speaker 6: around the University of Washington where some of the victims were.
Speaker 6: And you know, just before they got to looking at
Speaker 6: Ted Bundy, he was arrested in in Colorado. I believe
Speaker 6: that was for having the burglary items in his his
Speaker 6: back of his car. So then he was kind of
Speaker 6: on the radar, so Kepel never really you know, never
Speaker 6: really caught him. It was, you know, random that he
Speaker 6: was was stopped in Colorado.
Speaker 4: You have a story in the book that just before
Speaker 4: Christmas nineteen Machad and Ainsworth traveled to Koma to speak
Speaker 4: with the Bundees and they had been at the trial,
Speaker 4: and so they played the tape for them with Ted
Speaker 4: talking about again in third person, about raping and killing
Speaker 4: a girl. Yeah, and you have this. If you don't remember,
Speaker 4: I'll just have to say this day after that, they said,
Speaker 4: well they thought they heard a mouse in the room
Speaker 4: or something, so Louise was making some little subtle noises.
Speaker 4: But that right after they played the tape for us,
Speaker 4: he said, well, anybody for some coffee and apple pie?
Speaker 6: Yes, so I think you said they met with the birds. Yeah,
Speaker 6: they met with the Bundyes.
Speaker 4: They met the Bundies.
Speaker 6: Pardon me, Yes, but Johnny and Louise so they went
Speaker 6: to Yeah, because they Louise had attended his trial or
Speaker 6: trials they actually both had. And so yes, they went
Speaker 6: to Tacoma to play this tape for them, and I,
Speaker 6: you know, I never I I tried to meet Louise Bundy.
Speaker 6: She died a few years ago. People were fiercely protective
Speaker 6: of her. I never met her, but you know, you
Speaker 6: kind of feel that you get to know somebody a
Speaker 6: little bit when you're when you're writing in detail about them.
Speaker 6: And her way of of coping was to offer apple
Speaker 6: pie or coffee and basically, you know, change the subject.
Speaker 6: But that was. Yeah, the the mouse they thought they
Speaker 6: heard were was her, you know, a a physical manifestation
Speaker 6: of her emotions that she could not bottle up. Right then,
Speaker 6: you know, she was murmuring and and then she stopped
Speaker 6: and offered them coffee and usually was apple pie. In fact,
Speaker 6: I think, uh, at one point in my book, I
Speaker 6: talked about, uh, how how similar in a way Bev
Speaker 6: were and Louise Bundy were because you know, they both
Speaker 6: had five children. Louise went on to have you know,
Speaker 6: uh Ted, Ted had four s four step Uh I'm sorry, force,
Speaker 6: uh yeah, have siblings, have siblings, right, and and and
Speaker 6: Bev would offer people apple pie. And that's what Louise
Speaker 6: Bundy would offer people, apple pie. So I did find
Speaker 6: some some anecdotes and some stories that I think well,
Speaker 6: had never been told before. And one of them is
Speaker 6: you know that infamous picture the last night that uh uh,
Speaker 6: just before Ted was executed, when he's on the phone
Speaker 6: with his mother, and I uh interviewed uh for quite
Speaker 6: a while, the the photographer and the reporter who were
Speaker 6: the only people in the house with uh Louise and
Speaker 6: Johnny Bundy just hours before Ted was executed, and the
Speaker 6: fellow who took that famous photograph, and you know, I
Speaker 6: mean it's I think it's a fascinating story of how she,
Speaker 6: you know, speaks with Ted and what she says and
Speaker 6: what he says, and then and she's kind of you know,
Speaker 6: she's kind of cheering, and then she they hang up,
Speaker 6: they say goodbye, and then because Ted's sister won't accept
Speaker 6: a call from him, he calls her back and it's
Speaker 6: kind of anti climactic. And you know, so I was
Speaker 6: looking for for people and for stories that had never
Speaker 6: been told about, you know, Ted's life, and I I
Speaker 6: just I still think that was a really great one.
Speaker 6: Imagine being in that house alone with his mother as
Speaker 6: she's saying goodbye to him.
Speaker 4: Yeah, incredible. You also talked that at the trial, the mother,
Speaker 4: of course, is bleing, pleading for her son's life. So
Speaker 4: they wouldn't be put to death. And I had never
Speaker 4: read this before. They said, that's when Ted shed a
Speaker 4: tear right there.
Speaker 6: Yes, that's well at least that's what I would read
Speaker 6: or has been told. And you know, he wouldn't cooperate
Speaker 6: in his trial. I mean he would not. He would
Speaker 6: rather go to death row than admit that I I
Speaker 6: anything that had influenced him or or appear weak at all.
Speaker 6: He was extremely uncooperative. He wouldn't let them include, you know,
Speaker 6: anything about his childhood or what he saw or experienced.
Speaker 6: And uh, you know, he was kind of his own
Speaker 6: worst enemy. Uh at that point he.
Speaker 4: He write about him being incredibly and it seemed to
Speaker 4: be just what we mentioned that right to the very
Speaker 4: very end it he was very embarrassed about his background, wasn't.
Speaker 6: He he was? And you know there are her uh
Speaker 6: accounts you know really uh uh reported by other people
Speaker 6: than me that talk about you know, a high school
Speaker 6: teacher who you know, knew that Ted was n very
Speaker 6: very embarrassed about being I illegitimate. And you know, I
Speaker 6: think it's like we talked about, you know, admiring his
Speaker 6: great uncle. Ted wanted this, He wanted this fa this life.
Speaker 6: He was trying to fabricate for himself. You know, he
Speaker 6: would He graduated with a degree in psychology. He you know,
Speaker 6: very sporadically attended uh two different law schools. I don't
Speaker 6: know that he even finished, you know, one semester. But
Speaker 6: at one point he volunteered for the r Young Republicans
Speaker 6: in the state of Washington. And you know, was a
Speaker 6: was seen at somebody as uh at these at these gatherings,
Speaker 6: uh in the seventies, of somebody who might really have
Speaker 6: a future in politics. Yeah, cause he everybody thought he
Speaker 6: was bright. His his last attorney, pro bono attorney, said,
Speaker 6: you know, he really wasn't He was not particularly bright,
Speaker 6: but he you know, he was an actor his entire life.
Speaker 6: I mean, he created a character for himself, and that's
Speaker 6: that's what people saw this faciety.
Speaker 4: You talk, you talk about the psychological uh uh uh
Speaker 4: evaluation that he was bipolar. I don't know if it
Speaker 4: was Paulie Nelson or some other psychologists uh examined him
Speaker 4: and said that he had the the classic case of them,
Speaker 4: you know, sort of the mania and the ups and
Speaker 4: downs and the mood swings, and people would see him
Speaker 4: somewhat normal and then he would look different. He would
Speaker 4: even his eyes would look different. And then and he
Speaker 4: also had this preoccupation was startling people right from when
Speaker 4: he was a t a child and and so he
Speaker 4: was sort of had a unnerving way about him early on.
Speaker 7: Right.
Speaker 6: And going back to Sandy Holt who we talked about, uh,
Speaker 6: she and her brother were his playmates that she remembered
Speaker 6: he liked to startle, startle children. And of course, you
Speaker 6: know some of his uh one or two women who
Speaker 6: got away, you know, who were not victims, said that
Speaker 6: that was, you know, kind of kind of part of
Speaker 6: his mo was was you know, he liked to scare
Speaker 6: people or startle people. But he yeah, it was mostly
Speaker 6: when he was you know, uh incarcerated that uh and
Speaker 6: was on death row. That one psychologist who was uh
Speaker 6: assessing him said that he even gave off kind of
Speaker 6: a kind of a an odor when his eyes changed.
Speaker 6: Mm that you know, very kind of animal kind of instinct.
Speaker 6: And who knows. I don't I don't think it was
Speaker 6: was that he wasn't bathing. I I think there was
Speaker 6: something p you know. They they said they could see
Speaker 6: his his his eyes change and go very very dark,
Speaker 6: and and UH think Michaud and Ainsworth. Uh witness that too,
Speaker 6: that he could, you know, he would and he referred
Speaker 6: to his you know this other shelf, this other empathy, oh,
Speaker 6: you know realm that he would move into when he
Speaker 6: was Uh, he seemed to you know, I think he
Speaker 6: said that he he actually controlled it by killing. I
Speaker 6: mean it was lee. It was always like that when
Speaker 6: he would when it was he was leading up to killing.
Speaker 4: Yeah, he blamed it on his entity, the or the empty.
Speaker 6: Yeah.
Speaker 4: You talk about the hundreds of hours that you had
Speaker 4: with Bev that she shared with you. How dramatic was
Speaker 4: it when they read and when they saw the headline
Speaker 4: that the expert is explained, you know, expert says that
Speaker 4: Ted attacked when he was fourteen, an eight year old girl.
Speaker 4: You have in the book that she's holding up the headlines.
Speaker 4: There's a photo of her by the media holding up
Speaker 4: that headline. How disappointing was it that the police wouldn't
Speaker 4: respond You corresponded with her. You had hundreds of hours.
Speaker 4: I just thought, how dramatic was that from all the
Speaker 4: false leads there was. Again, it's not like the police
Speaker 4: were continually over all those years updating them, but there
Speaker 4: was a time when you know, there might have been
Speaker 4: some hope what happened when this information was revealed and
Speaker 4: the at least didn't respond.
Speaker 6: Well. I think it confirmed for her that they were
Speaker 6: on their own, that you know, there was this. I mean,
Speaker 6: she she wrote to Uh. She also wrote to Hugh Ainsworth,
Speaker 6: but she began writing to Ted and I I think
Speaker 6: it just confirmed for her that, you know, and probably
Speaker 6: by then. I don't know if Zatkovich and Strand were
Speaker 6: were deceased by then or they were certainly you know,
Speaker 6: older and retired. But I think it just confirmed for
Speaker 6: her that there was I if she was ever gonna
Speaker 6: learn anything, it would it would come from her herself.
Speaker 6: Uh that you know, nobody was gonna knock on the
Speaker 6: door and say we've we've solved this. And you know,
Speaker 6: she also, as I say in the book, she just
Speaker 6: had you know, there were just some terrible years. Uh.
Speaker 6: One of her her daughters, uh became schizophrenic and and
Speaker 6: was home listen on drugs and had two children, and
Speaker 6: uh one of them, you know, with with a lot
Speaker 6: of uh disabilities, and Bev and down just were kind
Speaker 6: of you know, literally bailing her out a lot and
Speaker 6: one of the things I I mean, I've done a
Speaker 6: lot of books since then, but it was the first
Speaker 6: thing I did where I could clearly see how something
Speaker 6: like this is the effect of this on a family
Speaker 6: has passed down in the generations. Sure, and the children
Speaker 6: and grandchildren and and on and on that there's something
Speaker 6: I mean about a murder or a missing person that is, uh,
Speaker 6: becomes it just it it becomes part of of who
Speaker 6: you are and learning to to live with it and
Speaker 6: or or not learning to live with it.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, I don't. Yeah, it's hard to stay. It's
Speaker 4: hard to say you could learn to live with something
Speaker 4: like that, but you survive.
Speaker 6: And you know, I spent a lot. It's not like
Speaker 6: every day it was, you know, tell me what it
Speaker 6: was like.
Speaker 7: Then.
Speaker 6: I I drive to tacomatas here and you know, she
Speaker 6: we'd watched Judge Judy because she liked to do that,
Speaker 6: and we might sit in her her backyard. I always
Speaker 6: picked up, you know, something I was hoping that she'd eat,
Speaker 6: because she was, you know, getting getting pretty than and drawn.
Speaker 6: And I met a couple of other her other children
Speaker 6: and uh andh you know, and she had these scrap
Speaker 6: books that she'd kept with. I mean, it was really fascinating.
Speaker 6: I think there were some twenty or thirty UH albums
Speaker 6: where uh, even even in recent uh decades, it might
Speaker 6: start with, you know, the web pictures of the wedding
Speaker 6: of one of her children, but the back half of
Speaker 6: it would be all about Anne, right, you know, with pictures,
Speaker 6: oh sorry, with pictures that she'd never found another place for,
Speaker 6: or or newspaper articles over the years, or when she
Speaker 6: and Dawn UH traveled some uh she'd always you know,
Speaker 6: keep a a little journal. And I think the strangest
Speaker 6: coincident she ever told me is one time they were
Speaker 6: on a UH bus caravan trip to oh to the
Speaker 6: to uh Missouri where the where the old when the
Speaker 6: grand old opry is right, and and she said that
Speaker 6: that Johnny and Louise were on the same bus to
Speaker 6: her and I never had a way of confirming that,
Speaker 6: but she said they were. They were seated alphabetically, and
Speaker 6: you know, oh they would run into each other around
Speaker 6: town once every decade or something and never never spoke.
Speaker 4: But yeah, that's bizarre.
Speaker 6: You can't make up something like that.
Speaker 4: Really, No, No, that's bizarre, how cathartic. I mean, that's
Speaker 4: an overused word. But how cathartic? Was this?
Speaker 6: For?
Speaker 4: Bad? Your involvement this book? And what was her reaction
Speaker 4: to this book?
Speaker 6: Well, it was it was published after she died. She
Speaker 6: died in two thousand and eight, and I was working
Speaker 6: on it. But you know, it was really strange. She
Speaker 6: was a very no nonsense person and I can't tell
Speaker 6: you how many dozens of times she would say to me,
Speaker 6: she would ask me, you know, what are what are
Speaker 6: you doing? And it wasn't that she'd forgotten her had
Speaker 6: memory problems. She just kind of, uh, you know, I
Speaker 6: never quite sunk in. I mean, she always knew and
Speaker 6: she you know, gave me the rights to photographs and
Speaker 6: her own writings and and lots of things. So she was,
Speaker 6: you know, uh very much a player in it. But
Speaker 6: she I think she must have wondered, you know, you're
Speaker 6: watching Judge Judy with me, So what what does this
Speaker 6: have to do with the book? But yeah, I I
Speaker 6: just always think you have to you have to spend
Speaker 6: time with people to to really uh get to know them.
Speaker 6: So I don't know if it would be uh cathartic.
Speaker 4: It was.
Speaker 6: She died about uh two years before it was. It
Speaker 6: was finished. But you know, I think of her a lot,
Speaker 6: and and I think of how she you know, she
Speaker 6: was just such an incredibly a strong person, and she
Speaker 6: had a lot of heartache in her life, not just
Speaker 6: not just this, but you know, this is kind of
Speaker 6: the ultimate heartache.
Speaker 4: I just thought that it would be it would be
Speaker 4: interesting for all of the again reluctance by police, for
Speaker 4: the for the family, her and her husband to know
Speaker 4: much years later, to get this kind of confirmation. But
Speaker 4: then the police are reluctant to do anything. But I
Speaker 4: thought that your involvement, like you say, watching Judge Judy
Speaker 4: with her, you know, stopping or for a second, getting
Speaker 4: off of that author subject relationship and just watching television
Speaker 4: with her again asking for her story. She wanted to
Speaker 4: be a journalist, so she had all of this information
Speaker 4: chronicled to use that information to get that story out,
Speaker 4: to tell her story, the thing that she'd lived with.
Speaker 4: I just thought that your involvement would this book, even
Speaker 4: the the future book that she didn't know, she didn't
Speaker 4: get to see it, realized that that would be cathartic
Speaker 4: for her. There would have been helpful for her, someone
Speaker 4: to listen to her and understand that and she was a.
Speaker 6: Private person, and it may be that she at some
Speaker 6: point that she you know, it occurred to her. Yes,
Speaker 6: what Rebecca's doing is you know it, maybe something will
Speaker 6: come about. But she wasn't one to you know, talk
Speaker 6: about her emotions or feelings much. And she never she
Speaker 6: never said to me, you know, I think this is
Speaker 6: important and I hope someday we find out what happened. Right,
Speaker 6: she was just you know, letting me do whatever I
Speaker 6: you know, thought I needed to do, so it And
Speaker 6: I think she was, you know, she was that that year.
Speaker 6: That year, she you know, really faded. But I'll say
Speaker 6: that they're one of the things. And I I don't
Speaker 6: think I've ever written a book where I've pointed fingers
Speaker 6: at the police. I think I think it's very appropriate
Speaker 6: for an author to ask questions about, you know, why
Speaker 6: things were done a certain way or not done. But
Speaker 6: I will say that I don't understand it's now, it's
Speaker 6: now how many years since nineteen sixty One's fifty five,
Speaker 6: fifty six years? You know why the Tacoma police they
Speaker 6: never would speak to me, and this project started in
Speaker 6: two thousand and seven. They still won't speak to me.
Speaker 6: They won't tell Julie, the oldest sibling, what they took
Speaker 6: her d and a few years ago to test something
Speaker 6: and to test the blood sample they had of TEGs.
Speaker 6: They won't tell her what. They won't tell her the result.
Speaker 6: They won't well, they said it was kind of inconclusive.
Speaker 6: They won't tell her, well, what was there in the
Speaker 6: house that they were testing. And I know from the
Speaker 6: Susan Powell case in Utah, which is now she's been
Speaker 6: missing since two thousand nine, you know, and that case
Speaker 6: is you know, closed because the best suspect, you know, Josh,
Speaker 6: her husband is dead. And but they won't tell the
Speaker 6: things that they won't tell the parents. They won't you know,
Speaker 6: give them the police report. They won't tell 'em, you know,
Speaker 6: for for cases that are decades old. I just don't
Speaker 6: see the point in that. And I don't know if
Speaker 6: it's because they're not they're gonna come up, They're gonna
Speaker 6: be questions. Yeah, but I don't know.
Speaker 4: I think it's common. I've seen the same thing where
Speaker 4: it's a cold case and the family I'm working on
Speaker 4: this case, the family was never contacted when the case
Speaker 4: was reopened. It seemed like a friend in the police
Speaker 4: had initiated this or had to influenced the police to
Speaker 4: open up the case. And they still can't get any answers.
Speaker 4: They could never get a police report, they couldn't get anything.
Speaker 4: And so you know, again they said, well, it's still
Speaker 4: an open investigation, but it's a cold case, and none
Speaker 4: of the family, the father the mother, have received no information.
Speaker 4: So you have to take it from them to say,
Speaker 4: especially when they explain how far this is how I mean,
Speaker 4: I understand certain things being withheld from anyone in an
Speaker 4: open investigation, but like I said, I agree with you,
Speaker 4: there has to be some information released to the family
Speaker 4: that can be harmless.
Speaker 6: Chuck Cox, Susan Powell's father, you know, is trying. You know,
Speaker 6: he'd like to see the original police report on her
Speaker 6: on the day she went missing. That case, and you know,
Speaker 6: everybody's dead. I mean, you know, Susan's missing ten years.
Speaker 6: Her husband killed himself and the children, then then his
Speaker 6: brother killed himself, and now the father in law just
Speaker 6: died in prison or in jail. You know, why not
Speaker 6: show the parents wh what what you have. I don't
Speaker 6: get it. I don't get it, but that is certainly
Speaker 6: the case here. It's also the case with you know
Speaker 6: a little less so with the book you and I
Speaker 6: talked about a few weeks ago about the murder of
Speaker 6: my high school classmate fifty years ago. You know, I
Speaker 6: I everything was lost, the evidence was lost, the police
Speaker 6: report was lost, and finally found it. And and I
Speaker 6: don't know that in that case, if Dick Kitchell's parents
Speaker 6: were ever told, Okay, we've got we've got this suspect,
Speaker 6: this guy, he's flunked three polygraphs. We just can't arrest him.
Speaker 6: I don't know if they were even ever told that.
Speaker 6: I saw no sign of it.
Speaker 4: No, well likely not. So I just add to the
Speaker 4: despair of these people, you know, just.
Speaker 6: Just and it just you know, the thing is these
Speaker 6: nothing made in the new in the case may ever
Speaker 6: come up new. But but boy, knowing that that you're
Speaker 6: not allowed to you know, see everything, know everything that
Speaker 6: that that happened. I I just think that is I mean,
Speaker 6: I've seen it with families, just how frustrating it is.
Speaker 6: So I think, you know, Bev just decided this was
Speaker 6: you know, this was basically up to her and her
Speaker 6: and Don to keep it in the public eye. And
Speaker 6: they they did, you know, what they could, and you know,
Speaker 6: and I wrote a big article about her as I was,
Speaker 6: and then I started the book, and then I wrote
Speaker 6: a second piece, you know, right after she died that
Speaker 6: also addressed some of this, you know, just going all
Speaker 6: those those decades without knowing.
Speaker 4: Mm. Yeah, it's just well there's no real happy ending.
Speaker 6: Victims family felt the same way, you know.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's now there's no happy endings with
Speaker 4: this and just further torment, I think for family. So
Speaker 4: that's just the nature of true murder and true crime
Speaker 4: is that.
Speaker 6: And there's always more than one family. There's there's always
Speaker 6: you know, and I do think about the other the
Speaker 6: families of killers, and you.
Speaker 4: Know, I it's sure.
Speaker 6: Must be terribly hard to live with.
Speaker 4: Absolutely absolutely, yes. Well, I want to thank you very
Speaker 4: much Rebecca for coming on and talking about Ted and Anne,
Speaker 4: the mystery of a missing child and her neighbor, Ted Bundy.
Speaker 4: For those that might want to look at your rather work,
Speaker 4: you have a Facebook page website. Can you tell us
Speaker 4: about that?
Speaker 6: Yes, the Facebook page certainly, and the website address is
Speaker 6: Rebecca T. Middle initial T Morris dot com. And I
Speaker 6: let's see that Ted Nann was my first book, and
Speaker 6: since then I wrote Bad Apples about the wave of
Speaker 6: young female teachers having uh involvements with their teachers. Still
Speaker 6: the only book about why young women seduce their students
Speaker 6: or get involved with the fairs. And then some crime
Speaker 6: anthologies with Ray Olsen, and then If I Can't Have
Speaker 6: You about Susan Powell and killing an Homish country, about
Speaker 6: a rare, very rare murder among the Amish in Ohio.
Speaker 6: And then this this year's new book, The Murder in
Speaker 6: My Hometown, and so I'm onto another book. Now sounds great.
Speaker 4: Well, we hope you, thank you, thank you very much,
Speaker 4: and hope to talk to you again real soon. Thank
Speaker 4: you very much, Rebecca Morris, have a great evening.
Speaker 6: By thank you. M