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<v Speaker 1>This episode maintain content of a graphic nature, including descriptions

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<v Speaker 1>of physical and sexual violence against adults, children, and animals.

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<v Speaker 1>Listener discretion is advised. Hi, this is Tanya.

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<v Speaker 2>Hi this is Shannon, and we are.

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<v Speaker 1>Crimes and Consequences, a hardcore true crime podcast.

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<v Speaker 2>Hey Shannon, Hey Tanya, how are you?

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<v Speaker 1>I am doing well today?

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<v Speaker 2>How are you good? Good? Not too shabby?

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<v Speaker 1>That's awesome, you know, just kind of cruising.

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<v Speaker 2>We're in November now, yes, daylight savings time. Yeah. Oh

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<v Speaker 2>it's been dark since gosh, what five five thirty, So

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<v Speaker 2>I have no idea what time it is.

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<v Speaker 1>I know it could be ten pm, it could be six,

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<v Speaker 1>could be two ways. I don't know.

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<v Speaker 2>I have zero idea. So it's all been good.

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<v Speaker 1>It's so hard to get used to.

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<v Speaker 2>You know. It's like I've been feeling a little bit

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<v Speaker 2>of like lead jackety, you know, it was just like drainy.

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<v Speaker 2>Still feel a little congested just all around. I don't

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<v Speaker 2>have a bug. I'm not sick, thank god, but I'm

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<v Speaker 2>not feeling not feeling Shannon. Yeah, you know, it's more

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<v Speaker 2>like Shannon, I'm tired. Yeah, I have to sleep immediately,

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<v Speaker 2>and I have no energy. You know what it's the sun.

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<v Speaker 2>I gotta add vitamin D.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah, it makes me a lot of people, they say,

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<v Speaker 1>a large population in Michigan we suffer from vitamin D deficiency.

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<v Speaker 1>So yes, kelcapri.

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<v Speaker 2>Cal's sapriz money. But what she got? Where is this week? Oh?

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<v Speaker 1>I have a terrible story that comes out of Canada.

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<v Speaker 1>It's not very old. It's from twenty fourteen, so this century.

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<v Speaker 1>And before I start, I would just like to remind

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<v Speaker 1>everyone to hit the subscriber follow on whatever app you're

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<v Speaker 1>listening to. So are you ready?

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<v Speaker 2>I'm ready? Okay.

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<v Speaker 1>At first, there was only quiet. It was the kind

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<v Speaker 1>of silence that doesn't belong in a house where a

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<v Speaker 1>five year old has just spent the night. The kitchen

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<v Speaker 1>clock ticked softly in the background. The air felt still.

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<v Speaker 1>The hallway smelled faintly of metal and something sour. Jennifer

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<v Speaker 1>O'Brien stood at the threshold of her parents' home and felt,

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<v Speaker 1>before she understood, that something was terribly wrong. She'd come

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<v Speaker 1>early that Monday morning, June thirtieth, twenty fourteen, to pick

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<v Speaker 1>up her son, Nathan. The long weekend had been full.

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<v Speaker 1>Her parents, Elvin and Catherine Likeness, were preparing to move,

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<v Speaker 1>sorting through boxes and memories, and they had held an

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<v Speaker 1>estate sale that drew neighbor's friends and the curious. Nathan

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<v Speaker 1>had begged to stay overnight. He loved his grandparents fiercely,

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<v Speaker 1>the pancakes in the morning, the stories at bedtime, the

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<v Speaker 1>special attention that only grandparents can give. Jennifer relented. One night,

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<v Speaker 1>she said, I'll see you in the morning. Now it

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<v Speaker 1>was morning and they were gone. She took a few

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<v Speaker 1>steps inside. A chair was overturned, A framed photograph lay

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<v Speaker 1>face down on the floor. In the guest room, she

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<v Speaker 1>noticed a sheet twisted at the corner of the mattress,

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<v Speaker 1>a patch of carpet discolored by something she couldn't name.

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<v Speaker 1>Her mind raced through possibilities, a medical emergency, a break in,

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<v Speaker 1>but the front door hadn't been forced, and the keys

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<v Speaker 1>still hung on the hook by the entrance. When she

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<v Speaker 1>called nine one one, her voice shook. My parents and

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<v Speaker 1>my son are missing, she said, there's blood in the house.

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<v Speaker 1>Within an hour, Calgary police were unseen. By mid morning,

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<v Speaker 1>yellow tape fluttered in the suburban breeze, and neighbors stood

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<v Speaker 1>on lawns, whispering and disbelief. By afternoon, an amber alert

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<v Speaker 1>went out across Alberta, the longest one ever issued in

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<v Speaker 1>the province's history. Billboards, television crawls, radio stations, and cell

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<v Speaker 1>phones repeated the same message, missing Nathan O'Brien, five years old,

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<v Speaker 1>last scene with grandparents Alvin and Catherine likeness. The news

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<v Speaker 1>spread with the velocity of panic. Parents double checked their doors.

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<v Speaker 1>Grandparents clutched their grandchildren tighter. Calgary, a city that prided

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<v Speaker 1>itself on safety, prosperity, and community, found itself staring into

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<v Speaker 1>a void. By the first week of July twenty fourteen,

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<v Speaker 1>Ulgrey's collective anxiety had curled into dread. The amber alert,

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<v Speaker 1>still active, still unanswered, had entered its fifth day. Police

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<v Speaker 1>had received more than one thousand tips from across Alberta

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<v Speaker 1>and neighboring provinces, but nothing led to the missing family.

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<v Speaker 1>In the city's southwest quadrant, a home on thirty eight

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<v Speaker 1>A Avenue had become a monument to absence. Reporters lingered

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<v Speaker 1>outside the air, heavy with questions. Volunteers taped missing posters

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<v Speaker 1>to lamp posts. Their corners curling in the dry prairie wind,

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<v Speaker 1>each bore the same smiling faces, A bright eyed little

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<v Speaker 1>boy and his grandparents, the kind of image that gnaweded

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<v Speaker 1>even the most stoic viewer, and then came the name

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<v Speaker 1>Douglas Garland, the first solid lead since the disappearance. On

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<v Speaker 1>July first, Canada Day, detectives arrived at a modest acreage

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<v Speaker 1>near Airdrie, Alberta, about twenty five miles north of Calgary.

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<v Speaker 1>The property, hemmed in by willows and rusting machinery, belonged

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<v Speaker 1>to the Garland family. Duglin Garland lived there with his

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<v Speaker 1>elderly parents, Arthur and Gwendolen. The family kept largely to

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<v Speaker 1>themselves to neighbors. Douglas was ad but harmless, a middle

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<v Speaker 1>aged man who tinkered with engines and electronics. He was

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<v Speaker 1>known to make late night runs into Calgary for supplies,

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<v Speaker 1>but rarely stayed long enough to speak. What few remembered

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<v Speaker 1>was his past, the aliases, the fraud, the failed life

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<v Speaker 1>experiments that had accumulated like junk around the farm. In

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<v Speaker 1>nineteen ninety two, Garland had vanished for nearly seven years

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<v Speaker 1>after a drug related arrest, living under a false identity

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<v Speaker 1>in British Columbia. Before being caught. He had studied science

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<v Speaker 1>and university but never completed his degree. People described him

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<v Speaker 1>as intelligent, mechanical minded, but emotionally stunted, and he carried

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<v Speaker 1>grudges like Talismans. Years earlier, Garland had collaborated with Alvin

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<v Speaker 1>Likeness on a pump design for oil and gas extraction.

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<v Speaker 1>When Likeness filed for his own patent in two thousand

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<v Speaker 1>and seven, Garland felt robbed. Family members would later testify

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<v Speaker 1>that he'd spoken bitterly about Alvin for years, referring to

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<v Speaker 1>him with disdain. That resentment had festered long enough to

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<v Speaker 1>become obsession. The first time officers visited the Garland farm,

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<v Speaker 1>Douglas was polite, cooperative even He told them he hadn't

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<v Speaker 1>seen the Likenesses in years, but detectives noticed small inconsistencies

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<v Speaker 1>in his story. He referred to the Likeness's estate sale

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<v Speaker 1>before police had made that information public. He stammered when

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<v Speaker 1>asked about his whereabouts the night of June twenty ninth.

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<v Speaker 1>Police returned the next day with a search warrant. What

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<v Speaker 1>they found deepened their knees, tire tracks matching those seen

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<v Speaker 1>outside the Likeness home, shoes with a tread pattern resembling

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<v Speaker 1>one found in blood at the crime scene, a burn

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<v Speaker 1>barrel filled with partially melted plastic and unrecognizable debris. In

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<v Speaker 1>Garland's workshop, investigators discovered a trove of comical containers, cutting tools,

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<v Speaker 1>and a small homemade incinerator behind the house. In an

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<v Speaker 1>overgrown patch of grass, searchers found what appeared to be

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<v Speaker 1>drag marks, as if something heavy had been pulled across

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<v Speaker 1>the soil. It was enough to detain Garland for questioning.

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<v Speaker 1>The breakthrough came from what the forensic team called trace

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<v Speaker 1>persistence in Layman's terms, no one cleans perfectly. When specialists

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<v Speaker 1>combed through Garland's garbage, they found faint, reddish smea on

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<v Speaker 1>the edge of a tool chest. They swabbed it. The

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<v Speaker 1>DNA matched Nathan O'Brien. Further testing identified Alvin and Catherine

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<v Speaker 1>in separate samples throughout the property, on a saw, a

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<v Speaker 1>pair of rubber boots, and inside a truck bed. The

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<v Speaker 1>evidence suggested a night of methodical brutality. Forensic testimony later

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<v Speaker 1>described the sequence as quote abduction, transport, homicide, disposal end quote.

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<v Speaker 1>It was a kind of language meant to strip away emotion,

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<v Speaker 1>but everyone in the room knew what it meant. Police

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<v Speaker 1>returned to the likeness home. With new eyes, they reconstructed

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<v Speaker 1>the scene from blood spatter and scuff marks. The evidence

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<v Speaker 1>told a grim story. Garland entered after midnight, subdued the likenesses,

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<v Speaker 1>and abducted all three, taking Nathan because he was a witness.

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<v Speaker 1>He loaded them into his pickup drove norm and brought

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<v Speaker 1>them to his property, where the killings occurred within hours.

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<v Speaker 1>The bodies were never found. On July fourteenth, twenty fourteen,

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<v Speaker 1>Calgary Police announced that Douglas Garland had been charged with

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<v Speaker 1>three counts of first degree murder. At the press conference,

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<v Speaker 1>Chief Rick Hanson spoke slowly, visibly worn by the investigation.

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<v Speaker 2>Quote.

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<v Speaker 1>We believe we have the evidence to support that these

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<v Speaker 1>individuals are deceased, he said, and we believe we have

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<v Speaker 1>the same person responsible in custody end quote. The words

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<v Speaker 1>landed like thunder. For two weeks, Calgary had held out hope, fragile,

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<v Speaker 1>irrational hope that Nathan and his grandparents might still be alive,

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<v Speaker 1>that maybe somehow there'd been a ransom, a misunderstanding, a

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<v Speaker 1>miracle waiting to unfold. That hope died with Hanson's statement,

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<v Speaker 1>Jennifer O'Brien wept publicly that day. Her grief, raw and

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<v Speaker 1>defiant quote. I know my son is with my parents.

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<v Speaker 1>I know they're together. End quote. In the weeks that followed,

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<v Speaker 1>the city became a kind of memorial. Children left toy

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<v Speaker 1>cars and teddy bears outside the Likeness home. Sidewalk chalks

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<v Speaker 1>spelled love for Nathan. Churches held vigils, candles burned on porches.

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<v Speaker 1>Strangers embraced it intersections. It wasn't just grief, It was

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<v Speaker 1>disbelief that such a thing could happen here, to people

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<v Speaker 1>like this, in a neighborhood that it always seemed immune

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<v Speaker 1>to tragedy. Reporters wrote of the Calgary stillness, a collective

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<v Speaker 1>quiet that hung over the city that summer. Even after

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<v Speaker 1>Garland's arrest, the missing bodies left a hollow space in

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<v Speaker 1>every headline. No one wanted to believe that a little

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<v Speaker 1>boy's sleepover, that simplest, sweetest act of family, could end

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<v Speaker 1>in such horror, but the evidence was undeniable. The monsters,

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<v Speaker 1>it turned out, didn't always live from home. The Garland

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<v Speaker 1>farm sat at the edge of a gravel road that

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<v Speaker 1>dusted out towards the prairie horizon, an ordinary Alberta acreage

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<v Speaker 1>until police began to dig. In July twenty fourteen, the

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<v Speaker 1>Calgary Police Service transformed the Quiet Air Dree property into

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<v Speaker 1>one of the largest crime scenes in Canadian history. For

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<v Speaker 1>eight weeks, investigators sifted through soil, ash and metal scraps.

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<v Speaker 1>They cataloged every fragment, every burn pile, every stain. What

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<v Speaker 1>they found was a geography of horror. Detectives called it

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<v Speaker 1>the search of a lifetime. More than one hundred officers,

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<v Speaker 1>forensic technicians, and evidence recovery experts rotated through twelve hour shifts.

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<v Speaker 1>They combed through barns, sheds and fields. Specialized anthropologists from

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<v Speaker 1>the University of Alberta were brought in to identify bone fragments,

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<v Speaker 1>while fire andats mapped burn patterns across the site. They

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<v Speaker 1>unearthed thousands of items, a child's toothbrush, scorched fabric, and

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<v Speaker 1>the remains of power tools modified in disturbing ways. At

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<v Speaker 1>the center of the property was the clearing where Garland

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<v Speaker 1>had built what he called a burn barrel, a makeshift

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<v Speaker 1>incinerator fashioned from an old oil drum. Within it, police

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<v Speaker 1>found the remains of a small chain, a button from

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<v Speaker 1>children's pajamas, and traces of blood. Just beyond the main yard,

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<v Speaker 1>a second burn site stretched into the treeline. The ground

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<v Speaker 1>had been disturbed, the ash layer thick with melted plastic

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<v Speaker 1>and metal shards. When sifted through fine screens, the soil

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<v Speaker 1>revealed microscopic bone fragments, calcigned by fire and impossible to

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<v Speaker 1>identify through DNA. By the end of the eighth week,

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<v Speaker 1>searchers had recovered more than six hundred bone fragments, none

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<v Speaker 1>larger than a fingertip. If the farm was the final chapter,

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<v Speaker 1>the basement of the Garland homed was the prologue. The

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<v Speaker 1>scene of confinement. In a locked room beneath the stairs,

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<v Speaker 1>police discovered a cot, zip ties and restraints. Nearby was

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<v Speaker 1>a small table holding chemical containers, latex gloves, and duct tape.

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<v Speaker 1>Forensic biologists later testified that they found DNA belonging to

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<v Speaker 1>all three victims in the room, particularly on the floor

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<v Speaker 1>and the bindings. One detective called it a chamber of control.

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<v Speaker 1>They also found medical books and online printouts about dismemberment

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<v Speaker 1>and incineration techniques. Garland had apparently researched bone ash disposal

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<v Speaker 1>and destroying DNA and fire. He wasn't impulsive, he was methodical.

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<v Speaker 1>By the time the trial began, in January twenty seventeen,

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<v Speaker 1>prosecutors had assembled a narrative built from fragments physical, digital,

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<v Speaker 1>and psychological. They called it a case without bodies. In

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<v Speaker 1>place of corpses, there were ashes in place of eyewitnesses.

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<v Speaker 1>There were traces the kind of forensic whispers that spoke

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<v Speaker 1>louder than any confession. One of the prosecution's most damning

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<v Speaker 1>exhibits was the GPS data from Garland's truck On the

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<v Speaker 1>night of June twenty ninth. His vehicle had left the

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<v Speaker 1>Airdree farm around nine forty five pm, traveled to the

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<v Speaker 1>Likeness neighborhood, remained there for two and a half hours,

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<v Speaker 1>then returned home just before three am. At four fifteen am,

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<v Speaker 1>the truck's movement sensor detected activity again, the beginning of

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<v Speaker 1>what police believed was the destruction of evidence. Even Garland's

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<v Speaker 1>Internet history was a confession of sorts. He had searched

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<v Speaker 1>for terms like how to erase blood evidence, forensic DNA

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<v Speaker 1>heat resistance, and how long bones burn. When officers seized

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<v Speaker 1>his computer, they found folders labeled Pumps, family, and Chillingly Likeness.

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<v Speaker 1>Inside that last folder were photographs taken years earlier of

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<v Speaker 1>Alvin's workshop, his patent documents, and his house. This wasn't

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<v Speaker 1>random violence. It was a vendetta executed with surgical precision.

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<v Speaker 1>The Crown called it a slow burn of resentment. Prosecutors

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<v Speaker 1>traced the feedback to the early two thousands, when Garland

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<v Speaker 1>had worked briefly with Alvin Likeness on an oil field

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<v Speaker 1>pump prototype. When the patent was later filed under Likeness's

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<v Speaker 1>name alone, Garland felt erased. In his mind, Alvid had

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<v Speaker 1>taken not only his idea but his dignity. Family members

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<v Speaker 1>testified that Garland nursed that wound for nearly a decade,

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<v Speaker 1>replaying the perceived betrayal like a looped recording. And so

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<v Speaker 1>when Garland learned through a relative but that the Likenesses

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<v Speaker 1>were holding in a state sale, a detail that made

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<v Speaker 1>the news, he saw an opening, a public event, an

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<v Speaker 1>unlocked door. Investigators believed he planned the attack for weeks.

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<v Speaker 1>The presence of Nathan didn't deter him. It simply became

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<v Speaker 1>part of the logistics. When the trial opened it in

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<v Speaker 1>January twenty seventeen, the courtroom in Calgary's Court of Queen's

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<v Speaker 1>Bench was silent except for the hum of reporters, recorders,

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<v Speaker 1>Douglas Garland sat motionless, his expression unreadable. The Crown's case

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<v Speaker 1>unfolded with clinical precision, blood pattern analysis, DNA charts, photographs

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<v Speaker 1>of scorched debris. But behind each piece of evidence was

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<v Speaker 1>the quiet presence of Jennifer and Rod O'Brien, who attended

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<v Speaker 1>every session. They sat through it, all, the photographs, the testimony,

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<v Speaker 1>the unimaginable details. Prosecutor Shane Parker's closing words cut through

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<v Speaker 1>the air like glass quote. This was not spontaneous. This

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<v Speaker 1>was planned, delibered, and fueled by hate. Three people lost

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<v Speaker 1>their lives because of one man's bitterness. After just seven

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<v Speaker 1>hours of deliberation, the jury returned a unanimous verdict guilty

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<v Speaker 1>on all three counts of first degree murder. Justice David

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<v Speaker 1>Gates sent in Scarland to three concurrent life sentences with

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<v Speaker 1>no possibility of parole for seventy five years, effectively a

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<v Speaker 1>death sentence. By time, your actions are the most despicable

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<v Speaker 1>the Court has ever encountered, Justice Gates said. In the

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<v Speaker 1>public gallery, Jennifer O'Brien wept silently, clutching a photo of

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<v Speaker 1>her son outside a crowd gathered in the winter air.

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<v Speaker 1>People hugged strangers, others simply stood had bowed. The verdict

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<v Speaker 1>didn't bring closure, how could it, the bodies were never found.

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<v Speaker 1>But it brought something closer to peace, the certainty of guilt,

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<v Speaker 1>the acknowledgment of truth. In the months that followed, Calgary

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<v Speaker 1>built a small memorial garden in Nathan's name, the O'Brien

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<v Speaker 1>in likeness. Families withdrew from public view, tending to private grief,

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<v Speaker 1>while the community learned to live with the absence. The

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<v Speaker 1>case remained a benchmark in Canadian criminal history, not only

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<v Speaker 1>for its brutality, but for its endurance. The O'Brien's public

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<v Speaker 1>grace became a symbol of resilience in the face of

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<v Speaker 1>unspeakable loss. As one columnist wrote in the Calgary Herald, quote,

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<v Speaker 1>this was not a story about monsters hiding in the dark.

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<v Speaker 1>It was about one man who let hatred become his

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<v Speaker 1>purpose and a city that refused to let him have

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<v Speaker 1>the last word. For most people in Calgary, the summer

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<v Speaker 1>of twenty fourteen remains divided into before and after. Before

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<v Speaker 1>June thirtieth, when Nathan O'Brien's sleepover was a small, joyful

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<v Speaker 1>moment in an ordinary family's life, and after, when that

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<v Speaker 1>same night became a wound that would change the city forever.

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<v Speaker 1>Years later, the Likeness home on thirty eight A Avenue remains,

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<v Speaker 1>but the house is quieter now. The estate sale sign longne,

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<v Speaker 1>the walls repainted, the curtains replaced, But those who lived

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<v Speaker 1>through that time still drive past slowly. Some leave flowers,

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<v Speaker 1>others avert their eyes. The murders of Nathan, Alvin and

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<v Speaker 1>Catherine were not only a family tragedy. They became a

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<v Speaker 1>collective trauma, a test of civic compassion, in a case

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<v Speaker 1>that reshaped how Canada thinks about justice, vengeance, and forgiveness.

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<v Speaker 1>For months after Garland's conviction, Jennifer O'Brien continued to make

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<v Speaker 1>quiet appeals for information about the location of her family's remains.

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<v Speaker 1>She said it wasn't closure she sought, but truth. Quote.

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<v Speaker 1>You can't vary grief, she told CBC's The National. But

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<v Speaker 1>you can ground it, you can give it somewhere to

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<v Speaker 1>rest end quote. In private, she worked with police on

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<v Speaker 1>Kadet Ever, dog searches and aerial surveys around the Garland property,

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<v Speaker 1>hoping for even a small recovery. None came. The Royal

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<v Speaker 1>Canadian Mounted Police eventually declared it improbable that identifiable remains

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<v Speaker 1>would ever be found. Forensic experts testified that the bone

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<v Speaker 1>fragments collected had been reduced to calcium dust. Victims of

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<v Speaker 1>both violence and fire, the absence of bodies left a

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<v Speaker 1>peculiar ache, one that rippled through every conversation about the case.

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<v Speaker 1>The idea of disappearance became as heavy as the murder themselves.

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<v Speaker 1>Garland's sentence, life without parole for seventy five years, was

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<v Speaker 1>one of the harshest ever handed down in Canadian legal history,

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<v Speaker 1>but even that felt inadequate to many. Canada, a nation

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<v Speaker 1>without the death penalty, had little language for crimes of

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<v Speaker 1>such premeditated cruelty. Legal scholars debated whether the scents represented

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<v Speaker 1>deterrence or symbolism, a judicial declaration that some acts sit

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<v Speaker 1>beyond redemption. For the O'Brien's, it was enough that Garland

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<v Speaker 1>would never walk free. Quote. He doesn't get to erase them.

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<v Speaker 1>Jennifer sat outside the courthouse. He doesn't get to go home.

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<v Speaker 1>End quote. The judges words lingered to quote. In thirty

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<v Speaker 1>five years on the bench, I have never encountered such

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<v Speaker 1>depravity end quote. The courtroom was silent, then, not because

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<v Speaker 1>justice was complete, but because there was nothing left to say.

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<v Speaker 1>In twenty nineteen, the O'Brien family, joined by hundreds of Calgarians,

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<v Speaker 1>unveiled the Nathan O'Brien Children's Foundation field House, a bright,

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<v Speaker 1>open space filled with the sounds of laughter and play.

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<v Speaker 1>This is what healing sounds like, Jennifer said at the opening.

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<v Speaker 1>Her voice trembled, but her resolve did not. For those

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<v Speaker 1>who covered the story, the emotional imprint was permanent. Reporters

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<v Speaker 1>spoke of how the case blurred the lines between professional

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<v Speaker 1>detachment and shared grief. Police officers cried in their cars

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<v Speaker 1>after long shifts at the Garland farm. Volunteers who searched

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<v Speaker 1>the field said they still dream of the prairie wind

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<v Speaker 1>rustling through empty grass. Calgary, a city often defined by

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<v Speaker 1>oil and optimism, found itself defined for a time by mourning.

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<v Speaker 1>Yet that morning built something like unity. Churches opened their

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<v Speaker 1>doors around the clock, neighbors held vigils and parks. When

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<v Speaker 1>Garland's trial ended, one local columnist wrote quote, we came

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<v Speaker 1>to understand that evil doesn't need a reason, it only

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<v Speaker 1>needs space. But we also learned that community is stronger

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<v Speaker 1>than cruelty. In twenty twenty, three. Nearly a decade after

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<v Speaker 1>the murders, Jennifer O'Brien told The Globe and Mail she

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<v Speaker 1>no longer drives past her parents' old home. It's just

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<v Speaker 1>a house, she said, quietly. They're not there. What remained

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<v Speaker 1>instead is a memory and the quiet determination to fill

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<v Speaker 1>that memory with light rather than darkness. Quote. I want

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<v Speaker 1>people to remember Nathan's laugh. I don't want him to

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<v Speaker 1>be defined by what was taken, she said. In Kilary's

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<v Speaker 1>southwest suburbs, just beyond the bustle of Glenmore Trail, the

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<v Speaker 1>nights are peaceful again, but for money, the image remains.

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<v Speaker 1>A small boy's pajamas folded neatly in a bag, his

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<v Speaker 1>favorite game left on the floor, a promise to call

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<v Speaker 1>in the morning. He never got the chance. The sleepover

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<v Speaker 1>never ended, but neither did the love that refused to

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<v Speaker 1>forget him. And that, my friend, is.

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<v Speaker 2>That is an incredible story. It's so deep and tragic

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<v Speaker 2>and oh just heavy. I have so many emotions about it.

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<v Speaker 2>About this guy Douglas, the planning how you said it

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<v Speaker 2>was years of the pictures of the house. He had

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<v Speaker 2>a folder. He looked up stuff, this is this is

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<v Speaker 2>terrible And then he plans it for the twenty ninth

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<v Speaker 2>and just how nothing's an accident kind of thing. That's

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<v Speaker 2>when Nathan's like, that could have been a deterrent for

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<v Speaker 2>him the grandchild, Like you did that to the child,

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<v Speaker 2>because it made me think, this is two thousand you

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<v Speaker 2>said fourteen was giving law abiding citizen vibes. Have you

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<v Speaker 2>ever seen that movie?

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<v Speaker 1>Oh, who's in that?

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<v Speaker 2>Who's the guy who played in three hundred? Girard?

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<v Speaker 1>Oh, Gerard Butler?

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, yes, that's all but and Jamie Fox, but he

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<v Speaker 2>avenges the death of his It's very energetic in the beginning,

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<v Speaker 2>and his wife and daughter are killed by these two guys,

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<v Speaker 2>and Jamie Fox gets the guys off, and now, of course,

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<v Speaker 2>now Girard is going to take the law into his

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<v Speaker 2>own hands, and he does this methodical way he gets

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<v Speaker 2>the guy and he records it and it's just like

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<v Speaker 2>I've never seen the Saw movies, but I'd imagine it's

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<v Speaker 2>something just morbid and decrepit and horrible. And you know,

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<v Speaker 2>if he's sick enough to do that, then he had

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<v Speaker 2>them listen to each other, go, he had them, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>because that's a deep abysal hate.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I think, like, did he who did he kill first?

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<v Speaker 1>I'm thinking he killed Nathan first. He probably killed Jefron

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<v Speaker 1>act to make Alvin suffer the most emotionally.

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<v Speaker 2>But even like, yes, that is wow, that's just it

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<v Speaker 2>blew me away, that is I can't even believe how horrible.

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<v Speaker 2>And then as a grandmother, you know, it's just like yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, as a grandparent you can be all like, oh,

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<v Speaker 2>of course your baby's safe with Grandma and Papa, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>and that's like the furthest place you would think harm

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<v Speaker 2>would come to your child. And then Jennifer just doing

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<v Speaker 2>what a hero? I mean, how do you even say

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<v Speaker 2>a hero? What a phenomenal person.

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<v Speaker 1>She's just incredibly strong. I've thought about something happening to

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<v Speaker 1>my child and I would be destroyed, and her, she

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<v Speaker 1>is destroyed. And it's always amazing to see someone get

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<v Speaker 1>on with their lives, you know, yes, when such tragedy happens.

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<v Speaker 1>So I hope Jennifer is somewhere and she is okay.

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<v Speaker 1>Having the foundation in Nathan's name probably helps a lot,

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<v Speaker 1>I would think, you know, psychologically, it helps her, gives

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<v Speaker 1>her a purpose and you know, doesn't allow Nathan's memory

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<v Speaker 1>to die. And you know, she lost her parents.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm surprised the house still stands. Honestly, it was such

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<v Speaker 2>a benchmark case.

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<v Speaker 1>I know I'm surprised too.

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<v Speaker 2>But this guy, that's just terrible and it's so heinous.

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<v Speaker 2>I don't even know how I feel about having this

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<v Speaker 2>thought thought when you were explaining how Canada, because I

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<v Speaker 2>do have that view of Canada where I'm like, oh,

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<v Speaker 2>the Canadians are so nice. Oh hey, yeah, yeah, the

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<v Speaker 2>little yeah, and so to hear something so awful, I

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<v Speaker 2>would think, gosh, that sounds more America. Isn't that terrible

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<v Speaker 2>to think? Like, I'm like, how is it? You know,

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<v Speaker 2>so have that mark crime that unfortunately we've heard a

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<v Speaker 2>little bit more of here. To touch something as the

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<v Speaker 2>you know, Alberta and Calgary who knows, who've known nothing

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<v Speaker 2>of this depth of depravity is something to heal from.

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<v Speaker 2>So yeah, the whole area for sure. But thank you. Gosh,

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<v Speaker 2>I was I was on the edge of my seat.

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<v Speaker 2>I could barely make any of my inappropriate jokes.

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<v Speaker 3>I know, I know you're like, oh, I'm like, what right,

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<v Speaker 3>So it was a good it was, yes, thank yeah,

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<v Speaker 3>It's just that.

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<v Speaker 2>Is yeah, wow, that's just well, thank you for enduring it.

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<v Speaker 1>Miss Shannon, and thank you everyone.

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<v Speaker 2>For listen to endure you. Of course, thank.

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<v Speaker 1>You everyone for listening to this week's episode. And if

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<v Speaker 1>you haven't already, please hit the subscribe or follow button

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<v Speaker 1>on whatever you're listening to, and please go to our

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<v Speaker 1>website Crimes Andconsequences dot com. Also, we have a Patreon,

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<v Speaker 1>so if you are enjoying the episodes that you get

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00:29:28.160 --> 00:29:30.680
<v Speaker 1>to listen to for free, you could join our Patreon

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<v Speaker 1>and get an additional episode every week, or you can

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00:29:34.319 --> 00:29:38.200
<v Speaker 1>join through Apple podcast app. So I think that's everything,

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<v Speaker 1>all the business, all.

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<v Speaker 2>The business and grabbing those extra stories.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and to learn the best episode. My dear, I

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<v Speaker 1>will see you later.

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<v Speaker 2>I love you girl, I'll love you.

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<v Speaker 1>Bye bye
