WEBVTT 1 00:00:01.560 --> 00:00:12.720 Special Operations Cobert as Spionage The Team House with your 2 00:00:12.839 --> 00:00:16.920 hosts Jack Murphy and David Park. 3 00:00:21.559 --> 00:00:23.960 Hi, everyone, welcome to episode three hundred and fifty of 4 00:00:24.000 --> 00:00:26.920 The Team House. I'm Jack Murphy here today with our 5 00:00:26.960 --> 00:00:30.600 guest Valerie Plame. She is the author of Fair Game, 6 00:00:30.719 --> 00:00:33.960 How a top CIA Agent was betrayed by her own government, 7 00:00:34.560 --> 00:00:38.200 and the book Fair Game was also turned into a 8 00:00:38.240 --> 00:00:43.520 feature film starring the always lovely Naomi Watts portraying Valerie 9 00:00:43.759 --> 00:00:48.240 and Sean Penn playing Valerie's late husband, Joe Wilson, who 10 00:00:48.399 --> 00:00:52.880 is a State Department ambassador to West Africa and some 11 00:00:52.960 --> 00:00:58.000 other places that we'll definitely get into. Valerie has an 12 00:00:58.039 --> 00:01:01.359 incredible story from her time at the Central Intelligence Agency, 13 00:01:01.520 --> 00:01:04.239 crossing over with some previous guests on The Team House, 14 00:01:04.239 --> 00:01:09.799 of course, and then eventually how the government outed her name. 15 00:01:10.040 --> 00:01:13.959 She was a protected CIA officer under the I believe 16 00:01:13.959 --> 00:01:18.879 it's the National Intelligence Identities Protection Act. It's kind of illegal, 17 00:01:19.000 --> 00:01:22.480 especially illegal for someone in the government to out a 18 00:01:22.640 --> 00:01:26.959 covered intelligence officer, and that was done to Valerie because 19 00:01:27.000 --> 00:01:31.719 of her husband's activism against the Iraq War. So we'll 20 00:01:31.760 --> 00:01:35.040 get into all of that in the interview. Valerie, thank you, 21 00:01:35.079 --> 00:01:35.760 for joining us. 22 00:01:36.400 --> 00:01:38.480 Thank you so much for having me. What a pleasure. 23 00:01:38.920 --> 00:01:44.239 Yeah, absolutely, So first question is about your origin story, 24 00:01:44.319 --> 00:01:45.959 if you tell us a little bit about how you 25 00:01:46.000 --> 00:01:47.640 grew up. And you know you grew up in a 26 00:01:47.680 --> 00:01:48.879 military family. 27 00:01:48.599 --> 00:01:52.319 Too, I did. My dad was an Air Force officer, 28 00:01:52.879 --> 00:01:55.519 he served in World War Two, my brother was a 29 00:01:55.560 --> 00:01:59.200 marine wounded in Vietnam. And my mother was a public 30 00:01:59.239 --> 00:02:02.519 school teacher. So I definitely came from a family of 31 00:02:03.159 --> 00:02:08.039 quiet public service. And I was given the opportunity to 32 00:02:08.439 --> 00:02:12.280 join the agency rather young, and I jumped at it. 33 00:02:12.439 --> 00:02:15.520 I thought, you know, what a great way to serve. 34 00:02:16.719 --> 00:02:20.639 I came in at a time when it was very 35 00:02:20.680 --> 00:02:23.199 clear who was wearing the black hats, the Soviets. We 36 00:02:23.199 --> 00:02:26.879 were the white guys wearing the white hats, and it 37 00:02:26.960 --> 00:02:30.400 seemed exciting, and the government was going to pay me 38 00:02:30.879 --> 00:02:33.400 and let me live and work overseas. So I was 39 00:02:33.560 --> 00:02:34.039 all in. 40 00:02:35.240 --> 00:02:37.400 And I imagine you must have had a college degree 41 00:02:37.439 --> 00:02:39.319 at this point, at least I did. 42 00:02:39.560 --> 00:02:42.360 Yeah, I did, but I ended up getting a few 43 00:02:42.360 --> 00:02:43.759 more degrees later. 44 00:02:44.599 --> 00:02:47.639 Well, yeah, that's interesting too. We'll get into your graduate 45 00:02:47.680 --> 00:02:52.719 school down the line. Your brother was a real bad ass. 46 00:02:52.759 --> 00:02:55.800 He was a recon marine in Vietnam. Sounds like a 47 00:02:55.800 --> 00:03:00.840 hardcore guy. And then so, how did you actually like 48 00:03:01.039 --> 00:03:04.000 get recruited by the CIA? Was it like a job's 49 00:03:04.039 --> 00:03:06.240 fare at your school or did you go to them? 50 00:03:06.280 --> 00:03:07.000 How did that work? 51 00:03:08.759 --> 00:03:13.479 They came on campus. I was undergraduate at Penn State University, 52 00:03:14.159 --> 00:03:18.039 and they had only recently begun to sort of expand 53 00:03:18.159 --> 00:03:23.639 their recruitment efforts beyond the IVS and beyond just white males. 54 00:03:24.319 --> 00:03:28.439 So under Casey, there was a huge build up in 55 00:03:28.479 --> 00:03:31.919 the intelligence budget because he really had President Reagan's ear, 56 00:03:32.759 --> 00:03:39.080 and they started looking wider, further afield, because we obviously 57 00:03:39.120 --> 00:03:41.879 have a global mission and the best way to accomplish 58 00:03:41.879 --> 00:03:44.360 that is to have a more diverse field to throw 59 00:03:44.439 --> 00:03:48.159 at it. Even though I know those are not words 60 00:03:48.159 --> 00:03:57.360 that are treasured today. Yeah, but I quite young, and 61 00:03:57.479 --> 00:04:01.919 I went through It's a very long, arduous recruitment process. 62 00:04:02.080 --> 00:04:08.400 It's psychological tests, it's vignettes, it's medical background checks, lots 63 00:04:08.400 --> 00:04:15.479 of psychological exams and so you know, fill in the blank, 64 00:04:15.919 --> 00:04:19.519 also written exams. And at the end of it, many 65 00:04:19.519 --> 00:04:24.160 many months later, they offered me a job. Okay, you know, 66 00:04:24.240 --> 00:04:27.800 when you're young, you really you think why not give it? 67 00:04:27.839 --> 00:04:31.480 A try. So I went in and I do my 68 00:04:31.519 --> 00:04:36.920 paramilitary training, which, as you quickly find out, it's not 69 00:04:37.279 --> 00:04:41.000 because they think they will drop you in behind lines 70 00:04:41.000 --> 00:04:44.000 in Mother Russia. It's really to build a spree de 71 00:04:44.120 --> 00:04:48.279 core and to double check exactly who it is that 72 00:04:48.360 --> 00:04:52.680 they have only recently hired. What is your character, What 73 00:04:52.920 --> 00:04:58.560 are you trustworthy? Do you have integrity? Are you can 74 00:04:58.600 --> 00:05:02.160 you be counted on? And find that out under very 75 00:05:02.360 --> 00:05:07.439 challenging conditions. It's not quite like basic training in the Marines, 76 00:05:07.519 --> 00:05:11.959 but they try to simulate that to ratchet up the stress. 77 00:05:12.240 --> 00:05:16.480 You guys did parachute training in seer type training, you know, 78 00:05:16.839 --> 00:05:20.360 detention and being interrogated to I guess you're saying that's 79 00:05:20.399 --> 00:05:24.399 to show you know your bravery, your resiliency, These sorts 80 00:05:24.439 --> 00:05:26.279 of personality traits they're looking. 81 00:05:26.040 --> 00:05:31.519 For absolutely, and some people do wash out. The agency 82 00:05:31.600 --> 00:05:33.959 tends to be kind and say, well, we can offer 83 00:05:34.000 --> 00:05:40.319 you a job here, you know, someplace else. But not 84 00:05:40.439 --> 00:05:44.879 everyone finishes who started, that's for sure. But I think 85 00:05:44.879 --> 00:05:51.240 in part because I was so young, and you know, 86 00:05:51.319 --> 00:05:54.040 you kind of ignorance is bliss right. You're like, oh, okay, 87 00:05:54.319 --> 00:05:55.959 I'm just going to do my best to keep up 88 00:05:55.959 --> 00:06:00.519 with these guys, and I loved it. It was hard, 89 00:06:02.199 --> 00:06:06.839 and you're being continuously evaluated. As you might imagine. The 90 00:06:06.839 --> 00:06:14.279 instructors at that time were badass former Vietnam vets, and 91 00:06:14.360 --> 00:06:18.160 they did not give you any slack. And they are 92 00:06:18.199 --> 00:06:22.759 constantly reporting back to headquarters on how you're doing. And 93 00:06:23.240 --> 00:06:27.240 most importantly I think, is your character? Do you show up? 94 00:06:27.279 --> 00:06:31.240 Are you responsible? You know? Do you you know? How 95 00:06:31.279 --> 00:06:33.319 do you take on a challenge? How do you respond 96 00:06:33.399 --> 00:06:35.079 as you say resiliency as well? 97 00:06:36.240 --> 00:06:39.600 And after the paramilitary training, did you go right into 98 00:06:39.800 --> 00:06:41.720 the farm and trade craft or do you have like 99 00:06:41.759 --> 00:06:43.399 some OJT in between. 100 00:06:43.800 --> 00:06:47.680 Some OJT in between? And then some months later I 101 00:06:47.759 --> 00:06:51.519 go back. I was hired on to go in Director 102 00:06:51.600 --> 00:06:55.240 of Operations, which I think it's that is the core 103 00:06:55.319 --> 00:06:59.000 emission of what the agency does. Recruit spies, foreign spies, 104 00:06:59.519 --> 00:07:05.759 pass that intelligence to senior US policymakers, and there's the 105 00:07:05.800 --> 00:07:08.800 Intelligence Directorate is that it was called at the time 106 00:07:10.040 --> 00:07:12.879 Director of Science and Technology. That's where we do our 107 00:07:12.920 --> 00:07:16.240 research and then ADMIN. So I was recruited to go 108 00:07:16.279 --> 00:07:19.959 into OPS, and which, to be fair, I really had 109 00:07:19.959 --> 00:07:24.279 no idea what I was doing. The Internet hadn't even 110 00:07:24.360 --> 00:07:26.560 been invented yet, And it's not like you could do 111 00:07:26.600 --> 00:07:29.439 a lot of reading on what the hell have I 112 00:07:29.519 --> 00:07:32.800 just said I'm going to do? But you just keep 113 00:07:32.839 --> 00:07:35.560 following it along and there were really good people for 114 00:07:35.600 --> 00:07:39.639 the most part. And so then you do the ops training, 115 00:07:39.680 --> 00:07:44.000 which is very much focused on tradecraft and the classic 116 00:07:44.079 --> 00:07:48.439 recruitment cycle, which is SPOT says, develop and recruit. How 117 00:07:48.480 --> 00:07:50.399 do you do that? How do you write a reports? 118 00:07:50.839 --> 00:07:55.360 How do you take clandestine photographs? How do you devise 119 00:07:55.560 --> 00:07:59.600 and implement sdr how do you keep yourself safe? How 120 00:07:59.600 --> 00:08:03.439 do you keep your assets safe? Many many different aspects 121 00:08:04.360 --> 00:08:06.639 besides the most important one of how do you recruit? 122 00:08:08.959 --> 00:08:14.759 And so you took to the training quite well, I think, yes. 123 00:08:14.680 --> 00:08:19.240 I mean I enjoyed it as grumbled like everyone else, 124 00:08:19.279 --> 00:08:22.639 I suppose, but yeah, I did really well. 125 00:08:22.759 --> 00:08:27.879 And what was your first assignment after graduating from the farm. 126 00:08:27.959 --> 00:08:30.279 I don't think I can say. I have to tread 127 00:08:30.360 --> 00:08:33.679 carefully because of everything that happened in two thousand and 128 00:08:33.799 --> 00:08:38.600 three with the outing of my true CIA identity, the 129 00:08:38.639 --> 00:08:45.480 agency has taken the stance that I can only you know, 130 00:08:45.919 --> 00:08:49.639 talk about certain things with clarity. 131 00:08:50.000 --> 00:08:53.279 After two thousand can I say Valerie because it's in 132 00:08:53.320 --> 00:08:58.759 your book. In the afterward, yes you can, I can. 133 00:08:58.960 --> 00:09:04.600 So Valerie's book is co written or you know. There's 134 00:09:04.639 --> 00:09:10.120 an apt afterward by Wara Rosen that kind of explores 135 00:09:10.159 --> 00:09:13.039 some of the sides of Valerie's career that the CIA 136 00:09:13.159 --> 00:09:15.799 Public Review Board would not allow her to publish. And 137 00:09:15.879 --> 00:09:19.159 so there's a pretty extensive chapter in there about you 138 00:09:19.360 --> 00:09:23.679 being in Athens, Greece and going after seventeen November, and 139 00:09:23.720 --> 00:09:25.600 some of the other stuff that was going on in 140 00:09:25.639 --> 00:09:26.840 that country at that time. 141 00:09:28.639 --> 00:09:35.080 There was, Yes, that whole episode of trying to get 142 00:09:35.399 --> 00:09:39.399 this book through the publication review Board was very painful 143 00:09:39.440 --> 00:09:44.720 for me. I had served the CIA loyally and well, 144 00:09:44.919 --> 00:09:48.320 I was very successful in my career. I was outed. 145 00:09:49.159 --> 00:09:51.679 I wanted to write about what happened. Of course, I 146 00:09:51.679 --> 00:09:55.639 would never reveal sources and methods, anything that was classified. 147 00:09:55.679 --> 00:09:59.399 Everyone signs a secrecy agreement at the beginning of their 148 00:09:59.440 --> 00:10:04.679 employment that is sacred. But there was clearly some retribution 149 00:10:04.879 --> 00:10:07.759 going on, and they wanted to make the book so 150 00:10:07.799 --> 00:10:12.720 that it wouldn't even be published. So what the publisher did, 151 00:10:12.919 --> 00:10:17.639 Simon and Schuster. They hired this investigative journalist who dug 152 00:10:17.759 --> 00:10:19.960 up all this. You know a lot of things that 153 00:10:20.039 --> 00:10:23.600 she then pieced together in the afterward, and I would say, 154 00:10:23.639 --> 00:10:25.799 for the most part it is correct. There were some 155 00:10:27.120 --> 00:10:30.120 things that she got wrong, but because there was this firewall, 156 00:10:30.279 --> 00:10:32.960 I truly did not even read it until after the 157 00:10:33.000 --> 00:10:34.039 book had been published. 158 00:10:35.240 --> 00:10:38.320 Hey, guys, our show is sponsored by ghost bed. Check 159 00:10:38.360 --> 00:10:42.360 them out please and make awesome mattresses, awesome pillows, awesome betting. 160 00:10:42.919 --> 00:10:47.080 Ghostpread provides high quality, is super comfortable, award winning mattresses 161 00:10:47.159 --> 00:10:50.159 crafted in the US and Canada. Did you know that 162 00:10:50.279 --> 00:10:52.799 sixty percent of US adults report being too hot when 163 00:10:52.840 --> 00:10:56.000 they're trying to sleep. That's me, I'm a sweaty little baby. 164 00:10:56.639 --> 00:10:59.039 That's why we designed all of our products with cooling 165 00:10:59.039 --> 00:11:02.240 features so you stay comfortable and a sleep all night long. 166 00:11:03.039 --> 00:11:06.240 Pair any of our mattresses with ghost Beds award winning 167 00:11:06.240 --> 00:11:10.559 adjustable base and get the ultimate sleep experience. Ghostpared rules 168 00:11:10.559 --> 00:11:14.279 the family owned business sixty thousand plus five star reviews. 169 00:11:14.679 --> 00:11:17.639 They have sleep experts on staff with twenty plus years 170 00:11:17.639 --> 00:11:19.639 of experience. If you have any questions, you can hit 171 00:11:19.679 --> 00:11:21.919 them up and ask them. You know, maybe what kind 172 00:11:21.919 --> 00:11:25.799 of mattresses work for you. Twenty plus year warranty that's 173 00:11:25.840 --> 00:11:29.559 two times the industry standard. Free shipping and returns on mattresses. 174 00:11:29.639 --> 00:11:32.440 Most of the products ship out within twenty four hours. 175 00:11:32.840 --> 00:11:35.960 They have in house customer support and sleep actress sleep 176 00:11:36.000 --> 00:11:41.000 experts chilling in Plantation, Florida. It rules, it's the best. 177 00:11:41.039 --> 00:11:44.440 They give you one hundred and one night's risk free 178 00:11:44.480 --> 00:11:46.480 to make sure that these beds are right for you. 179 00:11:46.879 --> 00:11:48.879 If you don't like it after one hundred and one nights, 180 00:11:48.919 --> 00:11:52.320 you could send it back full refund. When you purchase 181 00:11:52.360 --> 00:11:55.799 a ghost bed mattress, you're comfort guaranteed. I'm reading it 182 00:11:55.879 --> 00:11:59.840 right now, and it's capital letters guaranteed. Okay, they do 183 00:11:59.879 --> 00:12:02.440 the right thing and they're a great company. If you're 184 00:12:02.440 --> 00:12:04.879 not sure which Gospedd's right for you, like I said before, 185 00:12:04.879 --> 00:12:07.960 you could take you could take their mattress quiz online 186 00:12:08.120 --> 00:12:09.679 or you can give a call to one of their 187 00:12:09.799 --> 00:12:12.159 sleep experts and they'll help you with exactly what you 188 00:12:12.200 --> 00:12:15.399 possibly could need, what works for you, and what doesn't. 189 00:12:16.000 --> 00:12:19.639 And the best news about this is teamhouse listeners and viewers. 190 00:12:19.679 --> 00:12:22.360 You get an extra ten percent off sitewide for a 191 00:12:22.399 --> 00:12:26.080 limited time. You just go to goosped dot com slash 192 00:12:26.120 --> 00:12:29.000 house and use the code house at checkout one more time. 193 00:12:29.039 --> 00:12:32.799 That's go sped dot com slash house with the code 194 00:12:32.840 --> 00:12:37.200 house ho u se at checkout for an extra ten 195 00:12:37.240 --> 00:12:40.960 percent off site wide. I want to think go sped 196 00:12:41.000 --> 00:12:43.360 for their continued support. I want to thank all the 197 00:12:43.360 --> 00:12:46.759 fans that listen and watch for their continued support. Without you, guys, 198 00:12:46.799 --> 00:12:50.000 we are nothing. So thank you for supporting the show, 199 00:12:50.120 --> 00:12:52.480 and thank you for supporting the companies that help support 200 00:12:52.480 --> 00:12:55.879 the show. Go sped dot com slash house for ten 201 00:12:55.919 --> 00:12:58.960 percent off, made in the US, Made in Canada. Shout 202 00:12:58.960 --> 00:13:02.000 out to our brothers in Canada. They rock. Check them out. 203 00:13:02.120 --> 00:13:03.799 I love Ghost Bad. Thanks guys. 204 00:13:06.759 --> 00:13:09.919 Well as you're able to, to the extent you're able to, 205 00:13:10.120 --> 00:13:12.039 can you tell us about that first assignment what it 206 00:13:12.120 --> 00:13:12.440 was like? 207 00:13:14.000 --> 00:13:17.320 Well, your first assignment, you're you're putting into practice as 208 00:13:17.399 --> 00:13:19.240 things that they have taught you at the farm and 209 00:13:19.279 --> 00:13:24.399 a completely academic, relatively safe environment, and you know, how 210 00:13:24.399 --> 00:13:30.639 does this thing work? And I was going after indigenous 211 00:13:30.879 --> 00:13:35.320 terrorist groups. Of course, the Soviets were always the top 212 00:13:35.399 --> 00:13:39.759 target at that time. You're really the saying goes and 213 00:13:39.840 --> 00:13:43.559 it's true, you really it takes about five years to 214 00:13:43.559 --> 00:13:46.679 make a case officer. You are just You're just a baby. 215 00:13:46.759 --> 00:13:50.679 You are so green. You don't really get how this works. 216 00:13:51.440 --> 00:13:54.639 They hire you, They bring you in based on certain 217 00:13:55.039 --> 00:14:00.600 characteristics that you possess, curiosity, listening, ability in a person, skills, 218 00:14:00.600 --> 00:14:02.360 so for so on. You know, they do these in 219 00:14:02.399 --> 00:14:08.240 depth psychological examinations, but there's no way of knowing how 220 00:14:08.240 --> 00:14:11.399 that really works in the field. You're out there, and 221 00:14:11.480 --> 00:14:17.480 if you're lucky, you you have some mentors there. I was. 222 00:14:17.720 --> 00:14:20.799 I was just speaking to one of your former guests. 223 00:14:20.799 --> 00:14:23.440 He's a friend, Jim Lawler, and we were both reminiscing. 224 00:14:23.480 --> 00:14:25.200 And I don't know, maybe you've had him on the show. 225 00:14:25.840 --> 00:14:27.639 Have you had Joe Petnelly on your show? 226 00:14:28.080 --> 00:14:32.000 No, we haven't, but we did have Kiriaku on the show, 227 00:14:32.039 --> 00:14:34.639 who I think you must have crossed paths with at 228 00:14:34.639 --> 00:14:35.080 some point. 229 00:14:35.360 --> 00:14:40.759 Not not No, I knew him only when he became famous, 230 00:14:42.039 --> 00:14:45.720 but I didn't work with him. But Petnelly was one 231 00:14:45.759 --> 00:14:50.240 of my bosses a couple of times, and a wonderful mentor, 232 00:14:50.399 --> 00:14:54.559 and he we Jim and I Lawler and I both 233 00:14:54.559 --> 00:14:58.639 agreed one of the best recruiters in the agency. He 234 00:14:58.960 --> 00:15:04.240 just has a way about him that people you know, 235 00:15:04.480 --> 00:15:08.120 he doesn't recruit so much as people surrender to him. Okay, 236 00:15:08.320 --> 00:15:11.919 you know, Tailway, how could I possibly pass you intelligence? 237 00:15:12.759 --> 00:15:15.960 Because he and you can't teach that. You cannot teach that, 238 00:15:16.039 --> 00:15:20.080 but you can do your best to emulate some of 239 00:15:20.120 --> 00:15:20.759 the tactics. 240 00:15:20.840 --> 00:15:22.919 Well, what do you think that quality is that makes 241 00:15:22.919 --> 00:15:25.559 someone an exceptionally talented recruiter? 242 00:15:26.799 --> 00:15:32.559 Jim has it as well in spades. It is a 243 00:15:32.559 --> 00:15:39.240 couple things. A deep ability to listen carefully and then 244 00:15:39.679 --> 00:15:42.679 pick up on what you've heard, because that's how you 245 00:15:42.759 --> 00:15:47.399 find out what someone's motivation potentially could be to cooperate 246 00:15:47.440 --> 00:15:51.440 with the United States Intelligence. You know, there's also of 247 00:15:51.759 --> 00:15:57.480 the old saw of mice money, ideology, compromise, ego is always, 248 00:15:57.919 --> 00:16:03.240 to my experience, been a bit of each. It's rarely 249 00:16:03.559 --> 00:16:09.480 just one. Luck plays a role as well. But with 250 00:16:09.639 --> 00:16:15.000 people like Patnelly and Jim Lawler, Uh, not that they're 251 00:16:15.120 --> 00:16:20.080 James Bond, but they they really possess a heightened sense 252 00:16:20.960 --> 00:16:24.200 of sussing out in the other person what that motivation 253 00:16:24.519 --> 00:16:29.759 might be, as well as a deep sense that and 254 00:16:29.840 --> 00:16:34.080 it's true that they mean what they're what they say, 255 00:16:34.360 --> 00:16:37.879 and that they will keep you safe and you and 256 00:16:37.960 --> 00:16:43.720 you believe that and therefore go on to commit illegal 257 00:16:43.840 --> 00:16:46.720 acts in your own country. You know, see it whatever 258 00:16:46.799 --> 00:16:52.200 it is, and it is an ineffable, effable characteristic that 259 00:16:52.399 --> 00:16:54.080 I don't think can be bottled and sold. 260 00:16:57.600 --> 00:17:02.679 After that assignment, extensibly to grease you kind of went 261 00:17:02.720 --> 00:17:06.279 into a new role. It sounds like with nonofficial cover, 262 00:17:07.480 --> 00:17:08.960 what are you allowed to say about that? 263 00:17:10.880 --> 00:17:14.559 I can speak in general terms for your audience, who 264 00:17:14.680 --> 00:17:18.400 probably already knows this, But there's a wide spectrum of covers. 265 00:17:19.200 --> 00:17:21.599 On one end, you have official cover. That's where you 266 00:17:21.759 --> 00:17:26.640 are affiliated with the US government, and that typically you 267 00:17:26.759 --> 00:17:30.720 might be saying that you work in the political section 268 00:17:31.160 --> 00:17:34.440 at the embassy in so and so country. That is 269 00:17:34.480 --> 00:17:38.400 your cover, but in fact your real job is with 270 00:17:38.480 --> 00:17:41.599 the agency. At the other end of that spectrum is 271 00:17:41.680 --> 00:17:46.160 non official cover officer. You have no affiliation whatsoever with 272 00:17:46.680 --> 00:17:51.799 the United States government. You're working as a consultant for ACME, Stormdoor, whatever. 273 00:17:52.599 --> 00:17:56.559 And then there's a whole bunch of steps and different 274 00:17:56.599 --> 00:18:00.319 covers in between, depending on what the circumstances are. Do 275 00:18:00.359 --> 00:18:02.599 you need it just for the moment, do you need 276 00:18:02.640 --> 00:18:05.559 it to be quite deep? How far are they going 277 00:18:05.599 --> 00:18:07.759 to push? And of course in this day and age 278 00:18:07.759 --> 00:18:13.720 of Google and the Internet, that that is not so 279 00:18:13.920 --> 00:18:18.000 easy to create and maintain a legend. 280 00:18:18.799 --> 00:18:26.000 Right, And was it a little odd or unique? 281 00:18:26.000 --> 00:18:29.000 Maybe, I should say, for someone like you to go 282 00:18:29.079 --> 00:18:34.720 from serving under official cover in an embassy to nonofficial cover, 283 00:18:35.559 --> 00:18:40.480 it usually seems like it goes the other way around, right. 284 00:18:41.240 --> 00:18:48.880 And I think I can say that I advocated strongly. 285 00:18:48.920 --> 00:18:51.640 I wanted to go back to school and get some 286 00:18:51.680 --> 00:18:55.640 additional graduate work done, so it provided me a little 287 00:18:55.640 --> 00:18:58.519 bit of separation. But that is not typical. 288 00:19:00.880 --> 00:19:03.519 So I mean I think he went to was it 289 00:19:03.559 --> 00:19:05.960 the London School of Economics I did? 290 00:19:06.559 --> 00:19:08.799 And the College of Europe and Bruges. 291 00:19:09.279 --> 00:19:12.640 And so was that to develop your non official cover 292 00:19:12.759 --> 00:19:14.359 or was it the other way around that you wanted 293 00:19:14.359 --> 00:19:16.200 to go to graduate school and they're like, oh, maybe 294 00:19:16.200 --> 00:19:19.039 we can use this to send you somewhere. 295 00:19:19.559 --> 00:19:22.319 I think it's the latter. I can't speak too much 296 00:19:22.359 --> 00:19:26.920 to that, but it all worked out, yes, except for 297 00:19:26.920 --> 00:19:29.119 the fact that my career ended much sooner than I 298 00:19:29.839 --> 00:19:30.720 had nothing to do with that. 299 00:19:33.480 --> 00:19:33.759 Yeah. 300 00:19:33.799 --> 00:19:38.039 So again Laura talks about and you're afterward that you 301 00:19:38.079 --> 00:19:41.880 were working as an energy consultant, and that's also in 302 00:19:41.920 --> 00:19:45.680 the film too, working for an energy company called Brewster 303 00:19:45.799 --> 00:19:49.279 Jennings that probably you're not allowed to say anything about, 304 00:19:50.200 --> 00:19:53.559 but from there it sounds like was this about the 305 00:19:53.599 --> 00:19:57.640 timeframe that you start to intersect with Jim Waller and 306 00:19:57.680 --> 00:19:58.960 Paula Doyle doing. 307 00:19:58.799 --> 00:20:01.599 The counter Weapons of Mass Destruction mission? 308 00:20:02.240 --> 00:20:06.599 Correct. In nineteen ninety six or seven, the CIA sent 309 00:20:06.720 --> 00:20:11.319 up a set up there Counter Proliferation Division, so that 310 00:20:11.480 --> 00:20:15.799 is distinct from the geographical divisions of Africa, Europe or 311 00:20:15.880 --> 00:20:19.839 Latin America. This one was focused on the transnational issues 312 00:20:19.880 --> 00:20:24.559 of chemical, biological or nuclear weapons WMD. And I thought 313 00:20:24.920 --> 00:20:29.759 that is interesting because that is if I'm going to 314 00:20:30.720 --> 00:20:34.279 remain in the agency, I want to do something that 315 00:20:34.359 --> 00:20:40.119 is really meaningful, particularly in the nuclear aspect. So yes, 316 00:20:40.839 --> 00:20:44.200 I started working there in the kunter of Proliferation Division. 317 00:20:44.880 --> 00:20:48.960 And of course it's look, I was a liberal arts major. 318 00:20:49.319 --> 00:20:52.599 I'm not like a physics person. But the agency in 319 00:20:52.640 --> 00:20:55.480 the government is great at training you. And to be 320 00:20:55.519 --> 00:21:00.319 able to marry some knowledge about nuclear weapons with the 321 00:21:00.359 --> 00:21:03.319 operational aspect is what we were doing. And we were 322 00:21:03.359 --> 00:21:09.519 going after black marketeers and rogue nation states terrorists, of course, 323 00:21:10.839 --> 00:21:14.319 and just to back track one step or two, it all. 324 00:21:14.519 --> 00:21:17.759 I think what precipitated setting up that kind of proliferation 325 00:21:17.839 --> 00:21:22.400 division was in nineteen ninety five on the Tokyo Subway, 326 00:21:22.440 --> 00:21:25.359 if you recall, there was a staring gas attack by 327 00:21:25.599 --> 00:21:29.920 a cult Aram Sharinko, and I think that was really 328 00:21:30.000 --> 00:21:34.880 the first time that the US government sat up and said, huh, 329 00:21:34.960 --> 00:21:38.319 we really need to pay attention and pull together a 330 00:21:38.359 --> 00:21:44.960 lot of different strains in the US government to focus 331 00:21:45.079 --> 00:21:49.720 on this new and emergent WMD threat. And to me, 332 00:21:49.839 --> 00:21:52.480 I thought, yeah, put me in coach, you know, that's 333 00:21:52.680 --> 00:21:55.400 exactly what I want to be working on. 334 00:21:58.839 --> 00:21:59.039 Yeah. 335 00:21:59.480 --> 00:22:03.000 Reading between the reactions, especially in the first third of 336 00:22:03.039 --> 00:22:05.079 your book, it sounds like you spent quite a bit 337 00:22:05.079 --> 00:22:05.359 of time. 338 00:22:05.400 --> 00:22:06.960 It was at oak Ridge Laboratories. 339 00:22:08.759 --> 00:22:12.319 I've spent time at I can say all the laboratories, okay, 340 00:22:13.599 --> 00:22:18.079 And to be honest, I can say this. I live 341 00:22:18.119 --> 00:22:21.519 in New Mexico and the reason I first got out 342 00:22:21.559 --> 00:22:25.279 here was to come to Los Alamos National Lab and 343 00:22:25.599 --> 00:22:27.880 I was doing a lot of work out there, working 344 00:22:28.039 --> 00:22:32.759 in a liaison capacity between the lab and CIA headquarters, 345 00:22:33.440 --> 00:22:35.960 and I really fell in love with northern New Mexico, 346 00:22:36.279 --> 00:22:37.759 and so that's where I am now. 347 00:22:38.319 --> 00:22:40.880 And so this was to sort of like train you 348 00:22:41.039 --> 00:22:43.720 up on the nuclear physics side of it so that 349 00:22:43.759 --> 00:22:45.960 you knew what to look for and your work as 350 00:22:45.960 --> 00:22:47.319 an intelligence officer. 351 00:22:47.920 --> 00:22:53.079 Yes, and to work closely with them on very sensitive operations. 352 00:22:53.200 --> 00:22:56.000 Yeah. 353 00:22:56.359 --> 00:23:00.799 At the afterward of the book that talks about James 354 00:23:00.920 --> 00:23:04.240 Rising digging up a few ops that didn't turn out 355 00:23:04.240 --> 00:23:07.200 so well from the way it sounds. But as I 356 00:23:07.240 --> 00:23:10.480 was mentioned to you before the show, Tim Winer's new 357 00:23:10.480 --> 00:23:13.559 book which is coming out this summer, The Mission the 358 00:23:13.559 --> 00:23:16.400 CIA in the twenty first Century, there's a whole chapter 359 00:23:16.519 --> 00:23:20.240 in here about Jim Waller and Paula Doyle doing some 360 00:23:20.519 --> 00:23:24.519 epic stuff, like some epic counter WMD stuff. 361 00:23:25.200 --> 00:23:28.640 Yeah, Jim headed up what I guess we could call 362 00:23:28.759 --> 00:23:32.759 the aq Khn Takedown Team. I've heard him call it that, 363 00:23:32.799 --> 00:23:37.400 so I guess that's okay. Focused on aq Khan, who 364 00:23:37.440 --> 00:23:40.920 was actually not a nuclear physicist but a metallurgist by training, 365 00:23:41.000 --> 00:23:47.119 but certainly a nuclear entrepreneur responsible for the Pakistani nuclear bomb, 366 00:23:47.839 --> 00:23:52.039 and really without him and his efforts, we would not 367 00:23:52.200 --> 00:23:55.640 be so worried about an Iran nuclear program or a 368 00:23:55.720 --> 00:24:00.720 North Korean nuclear program. And thanks to Jim and Paula 369 00:24:01.039 --> 00:24:05.480 and so many others who worked with them. They really 370 00:24:05.640 --> 00:24:07.279 put a dent in that network. 371 00:24:08.200 --> 00:24:14.000 And so you mentioned h Jim Waller calling it the 372 00:24:14.079 --> 00:24:18.400 aq CON takedown team. You had another term in your book, 373 00:24:18.680 --> 00:24:20.240 the Island of Misfit Toys. 374 00:24:21.839 --> 00:24:25.119 Yeah, well that was the whole CPD division. And the 375 00:24:25.160 --> 00:24:30.160 reason I call it that is because nothing quite well. 376 00:24:30.359 --> 00:24:34.880 We had a what now they call fusion centers, the 377 00:24:34.960 --> 00:24:37.599 counter terrorist Center had been set up some years before 378 00:24:37.720 --> 00:24:40.279 where they brought this is unheard of where they put 379 00:24:40.279 --> 00:24:43.440 an analyst next to an operative Collie that you no 380 00:24:43.480 --> 00:24:48.240 one ever considered doing that. And that's we amplified that 381 00:24:48.400 --> 00:24:54.200 effort with CPD kind of proliferation division, bringing people experts, 382 00:24:54.359 --> 00:24:57.920 biological weapons experts from you know, some other place in 383 00:24:57.960 --> 00:25:01.839 the government, and there were analysts, and there were operatives, 384 00:25:01.920 --> 00:25:04.480 and we had what we were called, I think they 385 00:25:04.519 --> 00:25:07.200 still call him this targeteers. You know, look at a 386 00:25:07.200 --> 00:25:10.000 list of scientists, who's the one that we should go after? 387 00:25:10.160 --> 00:25:15.400 Who was a key there? So it was a brilliant 388 00:25:15.440 --> 00:25:21.720 scheme and it worked very well in making a dent 389 00:25:22.000 --> 00:25:24.640 in what the mission was WMD. 390 00:25:25.319 --> 00:25:28.079 And around this timeframe, I also feel like to tell 391 00:25:28.119 --> 00:25:31.440 the story I need to ask you about meeting your 392 00:25:31.480 --> 00:25:35.119 late husband, Joe Wilson, how that kind of came about, 393 00:25:35.160 --> 00:25:38.880 and that relationship came about I think somewhere during this timeframe. 394 00:25:39.480 --> 00:25:46.359 Yeah, correct, Although we were both living in Europe, we 395 00:25:46.440 --> 00:25:49.759 met in Washington, d C. And it was love at 396 00:25:49.759 --> 00:25:56.039 first sight and it got very serious, very quickly. And 397 00:25:56.119 --> 00:25:59.359 even though he wasn't with the agency as an ambassador 398 00:25:59.400 --> 00:26:05.240 and having spent his career in missions overseas, he certainly 399 00:26:05.279 --> 00:26:09.440 understood my world. So it was that was just right, 400 00:26:09.680 --> 00:26:12.440 you know. I felt he understood. I didn't have to 401 00:26:12.480 --> 00:26:15.519