Speaker 1: Hey, guys, I get it. Ads suck. I pay to
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Speaker 2: Achilles is the one who was meant to be the
Speaker 2: son of Zeus. He was meant to be immortal and
Speaker 2: meant to maybe even overthrow his father and be the
Speaker 2: king of the heavens. Instead, he's imbortal and justin I
Speaker 2: think you can imagine that throughout his young life, his
Speaker 2: mother probably kept reminding him, oh, my son, you short
Speaker 2: lived of all people, And that's what she says throughout
Speaker 2: the illio and every time she sees him, in fact,
Speaker 2: every time she sees somebody else, she says, have you
Speaker 2: heard about my son Achilles? Most short lived of all portals?
Speaker 2: So you can imagine that Achilles will be obsessed with
Speaker 2: his own mortality, And to me, that's the backstory, my
Speaker 2: amiliate here is a human being wrestling with his own mortality.
Speaker 3: The disclaimer to the fair season Karen's out there, how
Speaker 3: dare You? All guests only show do not reflect the
Speaker 3: opinions of the host. The purpose of the show is
Speaker 3: to have interesting conversations, stretch our minds and.
Speaker 4: Grow not what we want.
Speaker 3: If you are looking for an echo chamber, viewers and
Speaker 3: listener discretion's abused.
Speaker 4: You talk about extreme.
Speaker 1: What is happening and what is the Hold out your
Speaker 1: glass because we're about to feel.
Speaker 5: The join us as we travel and explore the vast unknown.
Speaker 5: It's a hero's journey with dragons to slay, damsels to save,
Speaker 5: and innumerable treasures to hoard, torches high, you know, look
Speaker 5: at it from a different perspective, different perspective, differ.
Speaker 6: Okay, Hey, what is happening and what is up? Hold
Speaker 6: out your glass.
Speaker 1: Because you have chosen wisely, because we are about to
Speaker 1: feel it. Welcome to the Prometheus Lins Podcast, the place
Speaker 1: with the conversations are always in lightning. I'm your host,
Speaker 1: Justin and here we like to use the allegory of
Speaker 1: the Prometheus Lens to take a second look at everything. Hey,
Speaker 1: if you knew to the channel, welcome to the Hero's Journey.
Speaker 1: Be sure and hit that like button and hit that
Speaker 1: subscribe button down below. We'll have our socials come down
Speaker 1: check us out our various platforms, and that would be
Speaker 1: much appreciated. But today we got a returning guest. We
Speaker 1: got Lou Marcos. We had a great conversation in my
Speaker 1: very first episode on The Hero's Journey. We recently had
Speaker 1: him on with doctor Judd Burton and we talked about
Speaker 1: the Greek Dark Ages and kind of laid out a timeline.
Speaker 1: It was a real good conversation, just to be a
Speaker 1: fly on the wall and set in. So I asked
Speaker 1: Lou to come back and take a deeper dive into
Speaker 1: the Iliad. So I'd like to welcome Lou back to
Speaker 1: the show. Lou, thank you for your time.
Speaker 4: Man.
Speaker 2: I appree, thanks, justin good to be back on.
Speaker 1: And we extended the invite to doctor Judd. He has
Speaker 1: some engagements he has, but I did send the email.
Speaker 1: He said that he may come in if he has time,
Speaker 1: so we may get a swinging guest in the middle
Speaker 1: of this discussion.
Speaker 2: Great.
Speaker 1: Well, for those that maybe miss those other episodes, Lou,
Speaker 1: just give everybody an introduction and let everybody know a
Speaker 1: little bit about yourself.
Speaker 2: Well. Thanks. My name is Lou Marcos and I'm a
Speaker 2: professor of English, scholar and residence at Houston Christian University.
Speaker 2: We used to be called Houston Baptist and I've been
Speaker 2: teaching that for thirty three years. I grew up in
Speaker 2: New Jersey and went to Colgate and Upset in New York,
Speaker 2: then on to the University of Michigan as an English professor.
Speaker 2: I teach the Romantic and Victorian poets, but I also
Speaker 2: do anything and everything with ancient Greece and Rome, and
Speaker 2: also at C. S. Lewis and jer R. Tolkien, and
Speaker 2: I've published lots of books, and lots of my books
Speaker 2: are about bringing Athens and Jerusalem together. That means, let's
Speaker 2: take our Greco Roman heritage and our Judeo Christian heritage
Speaker 2: and try to bring them together. So I write books
Speaker 2: with names like from Achilles to Christ, or from Plato
Speaker 2: to Christ, or next year, from Aristotle to Christ, or
Speaker 2: the myth main fact. And so I'm always interested in
Speaker 2: mythology and in archetypes, in what we can learn from
Speaker 2: myths and stories and these archetypes, these images or events
Speaker 2: or themes that keep repeating themselves across all different cultures
Speaker 2: and all different times. And what we'd like to do,
Speaker 2: like you do, justin, is to follow the argument wherever
Speaker 2: it leads. And so we want to go in a
Speaker 2: thinking holiday, if you will. And I love above all
Speaker 2: the epics, the Iliad, the Odyssey, the Eneid, Dante's Divine Comedy,
Speaker 2: Milton's Paradise Lost, all the way on up to Wordsworths Prelude,
Speaker 2: and Tennyson's in Memoriams. So I am particularly an epic fanboy.
Speaker 1: All right, me too? And the thing is is some
Speaker 1: people find it hard to separate whether these are historical accounts.
Speaker 1: Are these just you know, stories, legends, myths?
Speaker 2: Uh?
Speaker 1: Is there a distinction in these? And what's your opinion?
Speaker 1: Only the Iliad I think.
Speaker 2: I mean normally, when we talk about a myth like
Speaker 2: Perseus cutting off the head of Medusa, we seem to
Speaker 2: be in a very mythic world, more of a fantasy world.
Speaker 2: But when we move into legend, I think we've got
Speaker 2: a core of historical stuff, but it's elaborated on. And
Speaker 2: the best example of this in the world, in the
Speaker 2: Northern European world are the stories of King Arthur. I
Speaker 2: think there probably was a King Arthur, probably sometime between
Speaker 2: the downfall of Rome and the sort of Anglo Saxons
Speaker 2: taking over. Arthur seems to have been a transitional figure.
Speaker 2: He probably didn't do all the things that he does
Speaker 2: in the legends, but I think based in a real
Speaker 2: historical event and a real historical period, we start elaborating
Speaker 2: a good thing I remember doing and report as a
Speaker 2: kid on the Three Musketeers, and it turns out that
Speaker 2: there probably was an Athos, Porthos and Aramis, and some
Speaker 2: of the things that happened in the Three Musketeers probably happened,
Speaker 2: but not at the same time and with the same people.
Speaker 2: So Duma is joining things together. Maybe there wasn't Achilles,
Speaker 2: but maybe he didn't do everything that we attribute to him.
Speaker 2: But I think when we're in the world of legend,
Speaker 2: we have a foot in history, an attempt to understand
Speaker 2: past and what we stand for. Maybe the best simple
Speaker 2: example of legend is the story of George Washington cutting
Speaker 2: down the cherry tree. I cannot tell a lie. Father. Well,
Speaker 2: apparently most historians nowadays say that never happened, But in
Speaker 2: one sense it doesn't make a difference because we hold
Speaker 2: on to that because it tells us that our first
Speaker 2: president and America values honesty. I don't know if that's
Speaker 2: true anymore justin but it was true at a certain time.
Speaker 2: So legends like that have a foot in reality and
Speaker 2: are probably capturing a real memory and we talked about
Speaker 2: this a little bit before with Judd. A lot of
Speaker 2: legends are carried down by the oral tradition, where it's
Speaker 2: passed down by a series of bars, and those things
Speaker 2: were studied a lot, and it turns out that the
Speaker 2: oral tradition is much more reliable than we often think.
Speaker 2: I'm so tied Justine of the New Atheist. When they
Speaker 2: talk about the Bible or the Gospel stories, they always say,
Speaker 2: didn't you ever play the game telephone where you whisper
Speaker 2: in somebody's ear? First of all, I played telephone as
Speaker 2: a kid, and it never was wacko. Okay, First of all,
Speaker 2: they have this idea. And second of all, the oral
Speaker 2: tradition is not a game. I mean the oral tradition,
Speaker 2: especially amongst the Jews and the scribes passing things down,
Speaker 2: there was a system and a method to it that
Speaker 2: was reliable. It wasn't just some kid's game. It was
Speaker 2: I mean, especially if the oral tradition, it's when a
Speaker 2: civilization is illiterate, how are they going to carry down
Speaker 2: their values and their beliefs and the heroic acts of
Speaker 2: their ancestors, their forefathers. Well, they carry it down in
Speaker 2: an oral tradition until it is written down. Now, a
Speaker 2: lot of people say Genesis was oral tradition, and they
Speaker 2: think that that means it's not true. Well, mean it's
Speaker 2: not true. I do believe Moses gathered together the oral tradition,
Speaker 2: but he did it under the direct inspiration of God.
Speaker 2: So just saying something is oral tradition doesn't mean it
Speaker 2: is not true. Again, people play these games. We just
Speaker 2: got this studio value and you know what I mean,
Speaker 2: justin you've heard it. That's this ridiculous notion about telephone,
Speaker 2: and that's what's going on, and it is not going
Speaker 2: on that way in any shape or form. Our ancestors
Speaker 2: are always smarter than we think they are. Let's put
Speaker 2: it that way. They're the ones that build those incredible buildings,
Speaker 2: and we still don't know how they did it. We
Speaker 2: don't know who they got those giant stones up mountains
Speaker 2: and things like that. So we have to have a
Speaker 2: little humility and avoid what C. S. Lewis called chronological snobbery,
Speaker 2: the idea that newer must be better and older must
Speaker 2: be ignorant. And if we don't believe in something anymore,
Speaker 2: it must have been disproven. But nobody ever disproved miracles.
Speaker 2: David Hume thought he did the shoddiest chapter I've ever
Speaker 2: read miracles in any shape or form. But people still
Speaker 2: think that because most people, but the literary people, don't
Speaker 2: believe it. It's been disproven, and nobody ever disproved it.
Speaker 2: They just stopped believing in it because they don't like
Speaker 2: accountability basically.
Speaker 6: Oh yeah.
Speaker 1: And the thing is too is you know, you look
Speaker 1: back and you talk about the Megolithic structures and the legends,
Speaker 1: and yeah, they might have you know, elaborated, you know,
Speaker 1: and stretched the truth a little bit or you know,
Speaker 1: added some things to make the story more you know, fantastical.
Speaker 1: But at the same time, it's like you look at
Speaker 1: things like the Great Pyramid, you know, Manku Pichu and
Speaker 1: all this stuff, it's like, we can't do it today.
Speaker 1: And then the stuff they did try to build later
Speaker 1: was no, it couldn't hold a candle to it. So
Speaker 1: it's like it you know, it's reverse. It's you think
Speaker 1: things you get better at building things and doing things
Speaker 1: over time, but in fact, when we look in history,
Speaker 1: it's the opposite.
Speaker 2: It.
Speaker 1: Yeah, they're trying to recreate some of these things, and
Speaker 1: it's a really crappy job or crappy imitation. So it's like,
Speaker 1: we don't know what that world looked like back then.
Speaker 1: It might have been straight up Tolkien, you know, reducea
Speaker 1: snakehead people and stuff.
Speaker 2: You know, I mean, and you know, so many people
Speaker 2: have done these things where they'll take a picture of
Speaker 2: you know, like like an image on a temple or
Speaker 2: something of a dragon, and then they'll put it next
Speaker 2: to a dinosaur and they often look quite alike. I mean,
Speaker 2: it's amazing. And all over the world these talks of
Speaker 2: dragons and things like that. So again, a little humility,
Speaker 2: I mean, you know, also, the ancient world was more
Speaker 2: fluid than we think, going back and forth, traveling back
Speaker 2: and forth, engaged in trade and things like that. And
Speaker 2: it's just like today where trading partners are all of
Speaker 2: a sudden enemies and they have a war, and then
Speaker 2: after the war they become trading partners again. So and
Speaker 2: you know, this idea of not ader standing the difference
Speaker 2: between the absolute fact and a legend. How many times
Speaker 2: have you seen a movie based on historical events and
Speaker 2: it is basically true, but it's been dramatized, and you know,
Speaker 2: certain characters are collapsed together. The timetable is usually collapsed,
Speaker 2: but we still recognize it as a mostly true account
Speaker 2: of something that happened in history, so we can imagine
Speaker 2: it in film. But then we see it in an
Speaker 2: ancient book and we want to just, I don't know,
Speaker 2: somehow dismiss it as all just myth.
Speaker 1: Well, if we go into the Aliad itself, and basically
Speaker 1: for those that are unfamiliar with it, it's a Greek
Speaker 1: epic and it's about the ten year Trojan War, and
Speaker 1: it starts off basically and you kind of get like
Speaker 1: a backstory of the one of the main characters in
Speaker 1: the story of Achilles you want to go into.
Speaker 2: So who is Achilles? Okay, well, it's a very interesting
Speaker 2: backstory that you almost have to know it before you
Speaker 2: start reading the Ilien, which is kind of what's expected.
Speaker 2: Just like anybody watches a Life of Christ, they kind
Speaker 2: of know what's going to happen, right, I think they
Speaker 2: know he's not going to be let go, all right,
Speaker 2: but we bring it into this.
Speaker 1: So the backstory is a sixth prime example.
Speaker 2: Oh true.
Speaker 1: Yeah, they didn't elaborate much because everyone knew that story
Speaker 1: and they had oral tradition and.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and so it's almost just a little bit of
Speaker 2: a trigger to say, Okay, you know this, now, let's
Speaker 2: move on to the other details. So there was Zeus
Speaker 2: right now. First there was a guy named Aornos to heaven,
Speaker 2: and Aronos was overthrown by his son Promos, and then
Speaker 2: later on Pronos was overthrown by his son Zeus. Now Zeus,
Speaker 2: the god that we know Jupiter for the Romans, and
Speaker 2: Zeus heart a prophecy that he would have a son
Speaker 2: that would overthrow him, and he wanted to stop this
Speaker 2: from happening, and so he said, I have to identify
Speaker 2: who the goddess is who will give birth to a
Speaker 2: son that is stronger than his father. I can figure
Speaker 2: out who that goddess is, I will keep her as
Speaker 2: far away from me as possible, and so I will
Speaker 2: avoid this fate falling upon me. But he didn't know
Speaker 2: who that person was. So justin he turned to your buddy,
Speaker 2: mister Prometheus, whose name means forethought, and he said, tell
Speaker 2: me the name of the goddess. And Prometheus knew, but
Speaker 2: he wouldn't tell him because originally Prometheus had actually helped
Speaker 2: Zeus to overthrow his fellow Titans, because he believed that
Speaker 2: Zeus was more civilized, more just, But afterwards Zeus became
Speaker 2: a little more tyrannical. One of the things he did
Speaker 2: was he was cruel to the humans he created, and
Speaker 2: that's why Prometheus stole the fire to help man. And
Speaker 2: everybody knows that Prometheus was put up the rock, right,
Speaker 2: And that eagle hums every day and devours his liver,
Speaker 2: and during the night it grows back, so the next
Speaker 2: day the eagle can come and devour his liver again.
Speaker 2: And justin as I tell my students, people think that's
Speaker 2: a myth, but that eagle actually exists. It's called the irs. See,
Speaker 2: they devour money, they let it grow back, they devour
Speaker 2: it again. So there are always truth in myths. So
Speaker 2: what everybody thinks the only reason Zeus did that was
Speaker 2: because he stole the fire. But the other reason he
Speaker 2: did it in myth is that he would not divulge
Speaker 2: the name of the goddess. Well, after being punished on
Speaker 2: the rock for a thousand years, finally there was a
Speaker 2: reconciliation between the two. Hercules actually freed him and he
Speaker 2: told Zeus the name of the goddess was Thetus goddess
Speaker 2: of the sea, and so Zeus is like, that's it.
Speaker 2: I'm never going to go. But that was not enough.
Speaker 2: He said. The only way I can diffuse the danger
Speaker 2: is I'm going to force Thetis to marry a mortal name, right,
Speaker 2: and that's cruel because the mortal man will grow to die,
Speaker 2: Thetis will stay young forever. So she forces it, forces
Speaker 2: her to marry Pelias, a Greek king. But then Zeus
Speaker 2: feels bad about it, and so he decides, okay, to
Speaker 2: make up for it, I am going to give her
Speaker 2: the best wedding party that anyone has ever had. We're
Speaker 2: going to hold it up on Mount Olympus. We're going
Speaker 2: to invite everyone. It is going to be the wedding
Speaker 2: of the season. But because they wanted it to be fun,
Speaker 2: they did not invite eires eeris, which is the Greek
Speaker 2: word for discord or strife. She's the goddess of discord.
Speaker 2: Nobody wants her to come. Well, hm of course she
Speaker 2: found out and she crashed the party, very similar to
Speaker 2: Maleficen in this. In the Sleepy Beauty Stories, so Eras comes,
Speaker 2: but instead of insulting everybody, she takes a apple out
Speaker 2: of gold. She fashions a golden apple, and she writes
Speaker 2: on it to the fairest, and then she throws it
Speaker 2: into the group, and then she leaves, and immediately all
Speaker 2: the gods and goddesses claim the apple for themselves. After
Speaker 2: a long fight, after all the feathers come down and everything.
Speaker 2: There's three goddesses that refuse to relinquish the apple. One
Speaker 2: of them is here, the wife of Zeus. The other
Speaker 2: one is Athena, the goddess of wisdom and war, then
Speaker 2: also the daughter of Zeus. And the third is Aphrodite,
Speaker 2: also Zeus's daughter, the goddess of love. And all of
Speaker 2: them claim the apple, and they go to Zeus and
Speaker 2: say you choose, and Zeus says, I'm not falling into
Speaker 2: this trap. You ladies are all pretty in your own way.
Speaker 2: He's not messing around with it. None of the gods
Speaker 2: will answer, of course they're smart, but these main goddesses
Speaker 2: won't accept that, and so they go to the earth
Speaker 2: to find a stupid mortal who will judge. And they
Speaker 2: go down to what is modern day Turkey, and they
Speaker 2: find a shepherd named Paris leaning on his staff, and boom,
Speaker 2: they show up in front of three beautiful naked goddesses,
Speaker 2: and they say, you choose who the fairest is. But
Speaker 2: because they're vain, they want to hedge their bets, and
Speaker 2: so one by one they go up and whisper into
Speaker 2: Paris's ear a bribe. And so Harrah says, give me
Speaker 2: the apple, and I will make you the greatest king
Speaker 2: of all time. And then Athena whispers in his ear,
Speaker 2: give me the apple, and I will make you the
Speaker 2: greatest soldier, greatest of all warriors. And then Aphrodite Venus says,
Speaker 2: give me the apple, and I will give you the
Speaker 2: most beautiful woman in the world. And Paris, being young
Speaker 2: and stupid, chooses Aphrodite and gives her the apple, making
Speaker 2: perpetual enemies with Hera and Athena. Now he should have
Speaker 2: read the fine print, because if you find the most
Speaker 2: beautifulman in the world, she's probably already married to somebody else.
Speaker 2: She wouldn't wait around for you. Boz oh, come on.
Speaker 2: So the most beautiful in the world was named Helen,
Speaker 2: and she was married.
Speaker 1: Good for you, She's good for a few.
Speaker 2: That's that's what it's good. See A good way to
Speaker 2: put it. It's like, what wait for you, buddy? And
Speaker 2: so her name is Helen, and she's married to Middle
Speaker 2: Ages the Keeves Sparta, which is where my family is
Speaker 2: Probab by the way, Sparta. So the uh Now we
Speaker 2: need backstory to the backstory, because who's Helen. Well, one
Speaker 2: day Zeus fell in love, or we should really say
Speaker 2: he fell in lust with a mortal woman named Lyda Leda,
Speaker 2: and so he came down to seduce her, but in
Speaker 2: the form of a swan. There's a famous poem by
Speaker 2: William Butler Yates called Lyda and the Swan, and many
Speaker 2: many famous paintings of that. Event Lyda of the swanp
Speaker 2: she becomes pregnant. Nine months later, she gives birth to
Speaker 2: an egg. Out of the egg pops Helen the most
Speaker 2: beautiful woman in the world.
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Speaker 1: Hey, if you're tuning in every single week, then that
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Speaker 1: there is an all access pass for less than one
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Speaker 2: Now. At this time, Greece is a bunch of separate
Speaker 2: city states with their own kings scattered across, kind of
Speaker 2: like Italy was until one hundred and fifty years ago.
Speaker 2: All separate states, and they all wanted Helen as their wife,
Speaker 2: kind of a trophy wife. So Helen's earthly father said, look,
Speaker 2: I don't want to war here, so we're going to
Speaker 2: hold an event, sort of like an Olympics. Right, We'll
Speaker 2: all compete, and whoever wins can have my daughter's hand
Speaker 2: in marriage. So they got together and they were about
Speaker 2: to compete, but then Odysseus, who smart, says, wait a minute,
Speaker 2: what if somebody wins and somebody else steals her away,
Speaker 2: We're still going to have a war. So they all
Speaker 2: put their hands together and they pledge that whoever wins
Speaker 2: the contest will be the rightful husband of Helen, and
Speaker 2: they will all defend him if Helen is stolen away.
Speaker 2: Well you can see where this is going. Paris gets
Speaker 2: on a ship and he goes to visit Medilaius. Medialaius,
Speaker 2: being a good Greek hoast, takes him in, feeds him,
Speaker 2: gives him clothes, gives him a gift, and when he
Speaker 2: leaves to thank his host, Paris steals his wife. Whether
Speaker 2: Helen went willingly, whether she was really in love with Paris,
Speaker 2: whether she was forced to do so by Aphrodite, whatever reason,
Speaker 2: Helen goes off with Paris and they leave. Now, all
Speaker 2: of this would have been okay except for the fact
Speaker 2: justin that Paris is not just a shepherd. Paris is
Speaker 2: the son of King Prian, king of Troy, which is
Speaker 2: right on the Dardanelles across from Gallipoli. And what happened was,
Speaker 2: just before he was born, there was a prophecy that
Speaker 2: this child would destroy the city, and so kind of
Speaker 2: like now the snow White legend, they had somebody take
Speaker 2: the baby to die, but instead they felt pity, and
Speaker 2: so they gave the baby what we call a foundling,
Speaker 2: to be raised by a shepherd out there. And that's
Speaker 2: probably why in the Ilien he has two different names.
Speaker 2: He's called Paris, but he's also called Alexander. And I
Speaker 2: think that Paris was probably his shepherd name, and Alexander
Speaker 2: was probably his throne name. But that's probably why he
Speaker 2: has two different names in the Ilia. In fact, Alexander
Speaker 2: has used more of than Paris. Ugly but anyway, so
Speaker 2: when he goes back, it's kind of hard to figure
Speaker 2: out who realizes what. But instead he ends up going
Speaker 2: back to Paris, and his father, foolishly or whatnot, decides
Speaker 2: to defend his son. Maybe he still feels guilty, and
Speaker 2: that's what kicks off the Trojan War. Now you would
Speaker 2: think Menelaus would lead the troops, however, because his brother Agamemnon,
Speaker 2: the king of Myceni, was the strongest, and archaeology has
Speaker 2: shown us that Myceni was the most splendid gold in Mycenius,
Speaker 2: as Homer calls it was so splendid. We now know
Speaker 2: that's true. And so he led the vast navy across
Speaker 2: the Egean from Greece over to modern day Turkey and
Speaker 2: fought a war. Now what's interesting about this is I
Speaker 2: mentioned the wedding of Thetus and Pelias. Well, they had
Speaker 2: a son and his name is Achilles. So Achilles is
Speaker 2: the mortalier because the way Greek mythology works, you only
Speaker 2: get to be a god if both your mother and
Speaker 2: father are god. If it's one in one, you end
Speaker 2: up being a mortal you might be beautiful like Helen or
Speaker 2: strong like Achilles, but you're still immortal and oh, mortal,
Speaker 2: not importal, You're not important. So Achilles is the one
Speaker 2: who had was meant to be the son of Zeus.
Speaker 2: He was meant to be immortal and meant to maybe
Speaker 2: even overthrow his father and be the king of the heavens. Instead,
Speaker 2: he's a mortal and justin I think you can imagine
Speaker 2: that throughout his young life, his mother probably kept reminding him, oh,
Speaker 2: my son, you short lived of all people. And that's
Speaker 2: what she says throughout the idiot every time she sees them.
Speaker 2: In fact, every time she sees somebody else, she says,
Speaker 2: have you heard about my son Achilles? Most short lived
Speaker 2: of all mortals. So you can imagine that Achilles will
Speaker 2: be obsessed with his own mortality. And to me, that's
Speaker 2: the backstory, my Amelia. Here is a human being wrestling
Speaker 2: with his own mortality. The first half of the book,
Speaker 2: he is enraged that. The first line of the book
Speaker 2: is the wrath or the rage of Achilles. The first
Speaker 2: word is rage, maiden range obath, and it's a word
Speaker 2: that's only usually used of Apollo or Zeus, only of Achilles,
Speaker 2: is it used of a mortal So.
Speaker 1: You're going to have that occult ritual symbolism stuff too,
Speaker 1: where she's so worried about him, she does this ritual
Speaker 1: where she dips him into the river sticks to protect
Speaker 1: him from any mortal blows from a human, only a
Speaker 1: god good.
Speaker 2: And you know a lot of people have heard the
Speaker 2: phrase the Achilles heel, and according to the overall legend,
Speaker 2: Achilles died when Paris took a poisoned arrow and shot
Speaker 2: it and Apollo guided it into achilles heel and killed him.
Speaker 2: But the funny thing, justin is that Homer, though he
Speaker 2: would have known the story from the oral tradition, never
Speaker 2: ever mentions the Achilles heel. And to me, it's clear
Speaker 2: he wants us to understand that Achilles is the greatest
Speaker 2: soldier whoever took to the field, not because of a trick,
Speaker 2: but because he's the greatest soldier. They actually make fun
Speaker 2: of it in the movie Troy, where Brad Pitt actually
Speaker 2: does quite a good job playing Achilles, and somebody comes
Speaker 2: up to him and says, hey, I heard you have
Speaker 2: a pervious skin, and Brad Pitt says, really, then why
Speaker 2: do I bother wearing armor. They got to make fun
Speaker 2: of it. But it's a good thing because there's a
Speaker 2: big difference between Greek mythology and the Bible. Okay, Greek
Speaker 2: mythology is filled with contradictions because every poet and playwright
Speaker 2: tells the story the way they want. Now they can't
Speaker 2: change huge differences. The movie Troy is a very good movie,
Speaker 2: except for the fact that in the movie they kill Medialaius,
Speaker 2: which is something you absolutely positively cannot do. Medilaius is
Speaker 2: one of the few people that got home and had
Speaker 2: a good homecoming, so that was wrong. But other things
Speaker 2: you're allowed to play with them, like King Arthur. It eventually, uh,
Speaker 2: Lancelot and Guenevere have to have an affair, and and
Speaker 2: and Arthur, and there's certainly it's it's a tragic story
Speaker 2: in the end, but you can change it all different
Speaker 2: ways and play with it and whatnot. So Hoper wants
Speaker 2: to give us a pure shold soldier who was wrestling
Speaker 2: with his mortality, and there's that deep level for for
Speaker 2: a Christian leader. You know, in a sense, we're all
Speaker 2: wrestling with our mortality because you know, we were supposed
Speaker 2: to be immortal in the garden, right, we weren't supposed
Speaker 2: to due uh.
Speaker 1: And I think the gig say say it again, the
Speaker 1: Gilgamesh epic. You know, a great warrior battling with his immortality.
Speaker 2: That's right, he tries to get and he loses it, right,
Speaker 2: And and the horror of that. I mean that that's
Speaker 2: deeply written into our DNA, right into into it.
Speaker 4: You know.
Speaker 2: I love it, how you know, uh Jungi and people
Speaker 2: talking about archetypes. I always talking about all of these archetypes,
Speaker 2: all of these uh you know images come out of
Speaker 2: the collective unconscious, which is wonderful. Just because you give
Speaker 2: a name to something doesn't mean you understand it. Where
Speaker 2: did the collective unconscious come from? Right that? Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: we're created, you know, we have souls. Right. It's just
Speaker 2: so funny that people come up with a name for
Speaker 2: something and think they've explained a way a supernatural element.
Speaker 2: This is kind of crazy. And so yeah, I think
Speaker 2: we do have a collective unconscious. We recognize these archetypes,
Speaker 2: and that's one of the reasons Jordan Peterson is so powerful.
Speaker 2: He talks about those archetypes. He doesn't seem to be
Speaker 2: a believer yet, but he's certainly on the way. I
Speaker 2: wrote an essay recently where I started by saying, I
Speaker 2: think more people are praying for Jordan Peterson than any
Speaker 2: other celebrity in the world right now. I really think
Speaker 2: we're all like, come on, where youre going to become
Speaker 2: a Christian? His daughter is, his wife is, He's coming
Speaker 2: along and that he recognizes. That's why even though Jordan
Speaker 2: Peterson still, as far as I can tell, doesn't believe
Speaker 2: in the historical accuracy Genesis, he understands what it means,
Speaker 2: right like, he understands the deep meaning and the deep lesson.
Speaker 2: I just hope someday he can see that as C. S. Lewis,
Speaker 2: Tolkien and Chesterton would have said, it's a true myth.
Speaker 2: It's true because it actually happened. It's a myth because
Speaker 2: it speaks to our deepest needs and desires. It answers questions,
Speaker 2: who am I, Why am I here? Where am I going?
Speaker 2: What is my purpose? All of this sort of stuff,
Speaker 2: So you can have that now. Again, the Elite and
Speaker 2: the Odyssey are not historical and the way the Bible is,
Speaker 2: but it is they're very, very human. They understand. I
Speaker 2: like to say, when you read the Pagan classics. They
Speaker 2: may not have all the answers the way the Bible does,
Speaker 2: but they ask the questions in a very powerful way,
Speaker 2: and they understand what it is we need to wrestle
Speaker 2: with as mortal human beings who have an aspect to
Speaker 2: us that is immortal, our soul, our spirit. And we
Speaker 2: realize that even the secular side Tiphroms talking about how
Speaker 2: we cannot imagine our own death, it's like impossible to
Speaker 2: even imagine our own extinction. And we understand there is
Speaker 2: something within us that persists. And I think of the
Speaker 2: things that makes the Ilios so powerful is our hero wrestling.
Speaker 2: And so the first half of the book he is
Speaker 2: his rage is against Agamemnon because Academnon stole away his
Speaker 2: war prize. The second half of the book, roughly, he's
Speaker 2: wrath is against Hector because Hector killed his best friend Patroclus,
Speaker 2: not his cousin, which they ludicrously say in the movie,
Speaker 2: but he's best friend and he got But the real
Speaker 2: rage of Achilles is ultimately against his own mortality, wrestling
Speaker 2: against it, as in a sense, we all must wrestle
Speaker 2: with our mortality. It's not the way it should have been.
Speaker 1: M yeah, and that was something. You know, he is
Speaker 1: brought a up and his mother's a goddess and I'm
Speaker 1: sure he's you know, good, and God over told about
Speaker 1: how great he's going to be, and the story reads
Speaker 1: like he's a giant. He talks about, you know, he's
Speaker 1: this huge man. But not only is he just huge,
Speaker 1: he's the fastest. Said that he could outrun horses. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and just everyone feared him, and that his armor, you know,
Speaker 1: was just spectacular and it glowed, and just that he
Speaker 1: just looked like this god, you know, out in the field,
Speaker 1: and that people seen him and trembled and ran away
Speaker 1: and the only five you.
Speaker 2: Think he was.
Speaker 1: That's how he's That's how he's described.
Speaker 2: I think there's one scene when Achilles can't go back
Speaker 2: in because he needs new armor because Hector stole his armor,
Speaker 2: and he wants to help his men, so he walks
Speaker 2: up to the line of battle and he lets out
Speaker 2: a war cry, and the war cry is so terrifying
Speaker 2: that people immediately fall on their spears and are trampled
Speaker 2: and died. I mean that that's the terror. And the
Speaker 2: one scene when Achilles puts on his armor, if I
Speaker 2: can find it, it sounds exactly like Goliath. That's kind
Speaker 2: of kind of gonna be. And you know, Goliath, make
Speaker 2: me the last of the nephelment.
Speaker 1: You see if I can find And just the how
Speaker 1: that armor was described to it talked about the in
Speaker 1: thesea or what's his name, Hephaestus, that.
Speaker 8: Yeah, that's the one who makes the armor. That's yeah,
Speaker 8: the gods. And he was a titan, you know, yeah,
Speaker 8: that's true. He forges all the weapons for the gods.
Speaker 8: It's kind of like I thought of Mardoch in the
Speaker 8: they forge, you know, these weapons for this god to
Speaker 8: go into this epic battle. And then this shield it
Speaker 8: talks about. It's basically it's like cosmology, the constellations around
Speaker 8: it and yeah.
Speaker 2: And they believe that at the center was the Mediterranean
Speaker 2: and around it was all the land. But then around
Speaker 2: the land was ocean with a capital O that went
Speaker 2: all the way around. And in the full version of
Speaker 2: Oliver Nor Oliver Stones movie Alexandra, which is bitter than
Speaker 2: everybody said it's not worth watching, especially his director's cut,
Speaker 2: which is three and a half hours, it seemed that
Speaker 2: Alexander thought if he got down to India, he could
Speaker 2: grab a hold of ocean and go back on the ocean.
Speaker 2: And of course they didn't realize that's not exactly the
Speaker 2: way the world looks. But they're putting the whole thing.
Speaker 2: But listen when he puts it on. This is from
Speaker 2: book nineteen. First, Achilles placed along his legs the fair
Speaker 2: greaves linked with silver fastenings to hold the greaves at
Speaker 2: the ankles. Afterward, he girt on about his chest the corselet,
Speaker 2: and across his shoulders slung the sword with the nails
Speaker 2: of silver, a bronze sword, and caught up the great shield,
Speaker 2: huge and heavy. Next that sounds just like for Samuel
Speaker 2: as David. I'm sorry, as Goliath is putting on his
Speaker 2: armor with his huge right And it's interesting that you know,
Speaker 2: this is the myceny in Bronze age, and and and
Speaker 2: Achilles has a bronze ass spear that's so big only
Speaker 2: he can wield it. And when he allows his friend
Speaker 2: Patroclus to wear his armor, he does not give him
Speaker 2: the pelion ash spear of his father, because even Patroclus
Speaker 2: can't wield it. So that there is a power to
Speaker 2: that these these amazing figures of power and strength. And
Speaker 2: when he fights, you know, it's like it's like two
Speaker 2: gods fighting each other at something.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's what I was going to say, because he
Speaker 1: controlled the tampa of the war. Yeah, filed it first,
Speaker 1: and they were dominating the only thing that was keeping
Speaker 1: them safe the Trojans was their walls. And then when
Speaker 1: his war prize, which was a woman, was stolen from him,
Speaker 1: he's like, welly ain't going to fire for you no more,
Speaker 1: and he stops fighting. And then that's when the Trojans
Speaker 1: starts swinging the war and start winning again. And like
Speaker 1: you said, his friend takes his armor and goes into
Speaker 1: battle trying to rally the me in and thinking that
Speaker 1: Achilles is with them, and just him his presence them
Speaker 1: thinking that he was there, rallied them and they pushed
Speaker 1: the Trojans back to the wall. But Hector ends up
Speaker 1: killing him thinking it Tim steals his armor and then
Speaker 1: that's when it pisses him off enough that he's going
Speaker 1: to go in and fight, and his mom goes and
Speaker 1: has him some new armor forged by the gods and
Speaker 1: goes and kills Hector and drags his body across the
Speaker 1: camp for three days. And I mean, just his presence
Speaker 1: alone swung the entire war.
Speaker 2: It is terrifying. And you know, if the book ended
Speaker 2: there in book twenty two with him defiling the body,
Speaker 2: it would would be living in a world. But what
Speaker 2: happens in book twenty four is that Priam the Father
Speaker 2: sneaks into the Greek camp, helped by Hermes Mercury, and
Speaker 2: there's a reconciliation between Achilles and Priam. And in this amazing,
Speaker 2: amazing moment from the Mason and Bronze age, we have
Speaker 2: thousion powerful enemies. That's it.
Speaker 1: That was powerful.
Speaker 2: It was yeah, the two enemies. And I watched an
Speaker 2: interview with Peter O'Toole, the great actor Peter O'Toole who
Speaker 2: in the movie Troy plays Prime, and he said, the
Speaker 2: reason I wanted to do the movie, he said, agree
Speaker 2: to it is to be able to say the lines
Speaker 2: where Priam says, have pity on me, I kiss the
Speaker 2: hands of the man who killed my son and all
Speaker 2: my sons. Actually he killed almost all the Priam's sons.
Speaker 2: And that moment in which that human movement where they
Speaker 2: grieve together and actually Achilles is grieving in Patroclus and
Speaker 2: Priam is prief for pactoring that I've been grieving for
Speaker 2: the same person, but together they grieve and acknowledge their
Speaker 2: shared humanity. Because, as I teach my student, what it
Speaker 2: means to be mortal is not just that you will die.
Speaker 2: It means that, if you live long enough, you will
Speaker 2: have to grieve the loss of people you love. And
Speaker 2: sometimes that's the hardest part of being mortal. Even if
Speaker 2: you're a Christian you have full faith that you will
Speaker 2: be with the Lord, you're still gonna lose people. Jesus
Speaker 2: wept at the tomb of Lazarus. So it's not the way.
Speaker 2: I don't want to scare the Calvinist, but we're living
Speaker 2: in plan B. Okay, we're supposed to be in the garden.
Speaker 2: If we're living in Plan B, it's not the way
Speaker 2: it's supposed to be. And I believe that, just as
Speaker 2: you've heard the little poem in Adam's Fall, we sinned
Speaker 2: all we do participate in the sin of Adam, original sin,
Speaker 2: total privaty, what we're gonna call it. We participate in
Speaker 2: the sin of Adam. But I would argue, if we
Speaker 2: participate in the sin of Adam, then we must also
Speaker 2: participate in those few days that he was in the garden.
Speaker 2: I think we have an anti natal or pre native
Speaker 2: memory of Eden. That's why I think every one of
Speaker 2: us says the world should be better than it is. Well,
Speaker 2: the world's never been better than it is, but we
Speaker 2: we have. And you know, the Greeks and Romans they
Speaker 2: had a memory. They called it the Golden Age. They
Speaker 2: didn't call it the Garden of Eden, but it was
Speaker 2: the Golden Age when when when man and nature everybody
Speaker 2: was together, and even with the gods, and there was
Speaker 2: there was a time of peace. Men did not build
Speaker 2: ships and go to war. They did not dig into
Speaker 2: the earth to rape in of its jewels. They lived
Speaker 2: simple lives h and and I hate to say it,
Speaker 2: but sometimes they said they lived they lived vegetarian lives.
Speaker 2: You know, we from Texas, No, no, no, I mean
Speaker 2: we know that in the Garden of Eden that the
Speaker 2: fruit actually tasted like filet mignon right justin and we
Speaker 2: were sure that's right. Yeah, But there is that the
Speaker 2: memory of that memory of Eden, and I think is
Speaker 2: there and and of you know what what Milton calls
Speaker 2: paradise lost. We have a memory that we have lost
Speaker 2: paradise and the world should not be the way it
Speaker 2: is that's what we always want to say, maybe fifty
Speaker 2: years ago things were better. Well, no, we've never lived
Speaker 2: in a perfect world unless, in fact the guard to
Speaker 2: be as true as I believe it is. And we
Speaker 2: have that memory in us, and we struggle with that. Uh.
Speaker 2: And and you know again, they had celebrations looking back
Speaker 2: to that time of innocence that's been lost.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and being reminded of his humanity and his mortality
Speaker 1: is kind of the trigger for Achilles because of course
Speaker 1: he's upset at the loss of his friend. But his
Speaker 1: mother appears to him and tells him, you know, if
Speaker 1: you go into battle, there will be a great victory.
Speaker 1: You will slay Hector, and men will sing your praises
Speaker 1: for centuries. But you will go you will not see home.
Speaker 1: And he willingly chooses it. And then when he starts,
Speaker 1: you know, filing Hector's body and everything else, Zeus tells
Speaker 1: his mother go down and tell him to give the
Speaker 1: body up and show some decency and respect because his
Speaker 1: days are numbered also. So then he's like, okay, I agree.
Speaker 1: So then that's when Hermes goes to prim and tells
Speaker 1: him in a dream, you know, go to Achilles. He's
Speaker 1: going to give up the body. So he needed a
Speaker 1: little bit of a reminder, like, hey, you know, you're
Speaker 1: going to be in the land of she Old pretty soon,
Speaker 1: and if you don't want me to shove and pineapples
Speaker 1: up your butt in the afterlife, you better be nice here.
Speaker 2: It is like like I said, it's it's amazing that
Speaker 2: you know, when Achilles pulls out of the war, he's
Speaker 2: trying to come up with a different way to run society,
Speaker 2: one that doesn't take war, one that allows for peace.
Speaker 2: And but it doesn't work there in the Vegetable War,
Speaker 2: it doesn't work, and his attempt to pull out, to
Speaker 2: not go back in, I should say, leads to the
Speaker 2: death of the Trophicles. I compare it to One of
Speaker 2: the greatest tragedies of the twentieth century is that World
Speaker 2: War One is a war. I believe that could have
Speaker 2: been avoided with better diplomacy. It didn't have to happen.
Speaker 2: I mean, it just fell apart. It's crazy. It was
Speaker 2: not necessary war. And after World War One there was
Speaker 2: a serious peace movement in Europe. I mean it's not
Speaker 2: you know, people that don't want to get drafted and
Speaker 2: go to war. I mean, I'm talking about serious people
Speaker 2: that are older anyway, they wouldn't even be drafted right,
Speaker 2: so they're more objective, if you will. And there was
Speaker 2: an attempt to bring peace, but the trouble was that
Speaker 2: they had exactly the right idea at exactly the wrong time.
Speaker 1: Wrong time.
Speaker 2: Becau Zila was somebody that they had to fight. If
Speaker 2: we didn't fight, they were going to just keep taking
Speaker 2: over and over. That people don't realize that what was
Speaker 2: called the First Gulf War. That's even before you probably,
Speaker 2: but I remember it. The First Gulf War would was
Speaker 2: when Iraq was trying to take Kuwait and everybody's well, no,
Speaker 2: Iraq had like the third strongest army in the world
Speaker 2: at the time, and if we did nothing, it might
Speaker 2: have been a Hitler kind of thing where you can't
Speaker 2: stop them as they go again and again and again
Speaker 2: and again. But the trouble was because of this very
Speaker 2: good peace movement, good ideas, they delayed fighting Hitler and
Speaker 2: by the time they realized it, Hitler's army was so
Speaker 2: epense he was unstoppable. If they had stopped Hitler way
Speaker 2: back in the beginning when he went into what's it
Speaker 2: called the Sudatan Lank, they could have stopped him right,
Speaker 2: there'd be no problem, but they waited to. And so
Speaker 2: the tragedy the tragedy of the right idea at the
Speaker 2: wrong time, and that's kind of what happens with Achilles.
Speaker 2: But you know, he gives us this idea. He even
Speaker 2: suggests that. In book nine, Agamemnon realizes he was stupid,
Speaker 2: and so he sends Ajax and Odysseus and Phoenix, who
Speaker 2: was achilles tutor as a boy, sends them in a
Speaker 2: deputation an embassy to beg Achilles to come back, and
Speaker 2: offers him this incredible amount of war prizes, including yeah,
Speaker 2: one of his own daughters. I mean, it's unbelievably generous,
Speaker 2: and there's no reason why Achilles shouldn't come back in.
Speaker 2: Everything in the society tells them accept this and come
Speaker 2: back in, but he doesn't. And part of it is
Speaker 2: he's angry and resentful, but it's more than that, because
Speaker 2: he says that not worth the value of my life
Speaker 2: are all the prizes that were won at Troy. Then
Speaker 2: he says, amazingly, he says, they're trying to like, take
Speaker 2: these gifts, you'll have so much honor, which it's an
Speaker 2: honor based society. And he says, such honor is a
Speaker 2: thing I need not. That's like I don't know, elon
Speaker 2: musk or something, saying another million dollars, another billion dollars
Speaker 2: is something I don't need. I mean, no, it doesn't
Speaker 2: make any it makes sense right that this is this
Speaker 2: is the Paster Boy for the honor based warrior society
Speaker 2: where you get they call it the means of honors
Speaker 2: who are gathering needs that he.
Speaker 1: Really was struggling with the thought of death. That's the thanks.
Speaker 1: I don't have the extensive works. I just have, you know,
Speaker 1: smaller books that are summarizations, and they don't they don't
Speaker 1: portray that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, because it's a little more subtle when you read.
Speaker 2: But he actually says, not worth the value of my
Speaker 2: many says I. He goes, Okay, such honor is a
Speaker 2: thing I need not. I believe I'm already honored under
Speaker 2: the aegis of Zeus because I have breath in my
Speaker 2: lungs and spring in my knees. What he's saying is
Speaker 2: I have value simply because I'm alive. Now. I hope
Speaker 2: we believe that today in our Christian world, or at
Speaker 2: least Christian influence world, that every human being has intrinsic
Speaker 2: value and worth simply because they're alive. But that's not
Speaker 2: really what Achilles police. You have to read very carefully
Speaker 2: in book nine to see these incredible, shocking things that
Speaker 2: Achilles are saying, things that are inconceivable, to borrow from
Speaker 2: the princess bride inconceivable. And when he says it, everybody's like, oh,
Speaker 2: we're talking about this is not the way we think.
Speaker 2: Nobody understands that. Of course, Achilles can't do anything with
Speaker 2: it because nobody knows what he's talking about, and we're
Speaker 2: gonna have to wait. Well, ultimately we have to wait
Speaker 2: to Jesus, but first we have to wait to Socrates
Speaker 2: and Plato, where we see a little bit of that
Speaker 2: truth coming in. But ultimately it's going to be Jesus.
Speaker 2: And so again, all of these things are happening. It's
Speaker 2: that tragedy. And because he won't go in, he allows
Speaker 2: a kid. And you know, the Iliad is very civilized
Speaker 2: because you have to take good advice, Achilles tells Patroclus.
Speaker 2: Once you know, rout the enemy and send them away.
Speaker 2: Do not go after Hector or he will kill you.
Speaker 9: What a really unique book, and I love that your
Speaker 9: first book is something that is unique, and it's not
Speaker 9: something that's been written for you know, when I first started,
Speaker 9: my very very first book was a self published book
Speaker 9: that looking back, I don't think it's really all that
Speaker 9: great now, And I think you got a topic here
Speaker 9: that I haven't seen anybody write a book on. I mean,
Speaker 9: im not anything that I'm aware of, And it's really interesting,
Speaker 9: it's unique, there's a lot to learn, and I think
Speaker 9: they can actually provide a lot of context for people.
Speaker 9: So congratulations on your first book, and thank you so
Speaker 9: much for coming on the show and sharing it with us.
Speaker 2: And he goes after Activity is killed. Then Hector is warned,
Speaker 2: don't kill Patroclus or your death will follow, and he
Speaker 2: doesn't listen. And then Achilles is warned, don't kill Hector,
Speaker 2: or your death and he doesn't listen. Now his death
Speaker 2: happens outside the Idiot, but we know it's going to
Speaker 2: happen very soon, and ultimately that the downfall. But the
Speaker 2: so the Iliot is a world where it values honor
Speaker 2: and strength and prowess on the battlefield, but it also
Speaker 2: honors the wisdom of experience. We don't have a legal
Speaker 2: justice system back then to my students to say the
Speaker 2: closest is if you watch Pocahontas and see the old
Speaker 2: men sitting in a circle and making decisions. That's what
Speaker 2: you have. When things work well, you have the wise
Speaker 2: counselors who have the wisdom of experience that will speak
Speaker 2: together people like Nestor or Prying who have this experience.
Speaker 2: And when they listen to those people, things go well.
Speaker 2: But when they throw off good advice and are reckless,
Speaker 2: at least to their.
Speaker 1: Doubtfall that's a biblical thing too. I mean it talks
Speaker 1: about the elders.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, and listen, And I mean, as I like
Speaker 2: to tell to my students, Solomon is the wisest man
Speaker 2: who ever lived. That doesn't mean Solomon was a brain
Speaker 2: surgeon or a rocket scientist. The wisdom of Solomon was
Speaker 2: not the specialized wisdom that we overprize today. It was
Speaker 2: the wisdom of experience, is what the Bible calls. Discern
Speaker 2: it and disturbment comes with age and experience. And remember,
Speaker 2: do you remember why Solomon asks God for wisdom? Remember
Speaker 2: why you first better rule his people? Yeah, because I'm
Speaker 2: a young man, I'm twenty whatever, he's a young man.
Speaker 2: I'm a young man and exactly how to rule these people.
Speaker 2: So I'm looking for the wisdom that I might get
Speaker 2: when I'm sixty five. I don't have it when I'm twenty.
Speaker 2: And God gives him that wisdom and the proverbs. What
Speaker 2: we call proverbial wisdom is wisdom of experience. Yep.
Speaker 1: Now uh, Now with the Iliad focusing more like on
Speaker 1: uh like Paris, what do you think like his overall
Speaker 1: arching theme or archetype or morality? Uh, teaching lesson he
Speaker 1: is because like with me when I when I've seen that,
Speaker 1: I just got mad reading it, honestly, because when I
Speaker 1: was reading it, he comes out and he's like, I'll
Speaker 1: you know, he acts like he's all brave. He's like,
Speaker 1: I'll eat this war. Not another man will die. I
Speaker 1: will challenge somebody one on one and I'll defeat them
Speaker 1: and they'll go home. He gets his butt whooped, and
Speaker 1: then instead of dying honorably, he runs away and hides.
Speaker 1: And then they're in the war. They can't find him.
Speaker 1: He's up in the bed chambers of the women hiding.
Speaker 1: Hector calls him a girl and has to drag him
Speaker 1: back out on the battlefield. And then here's Achilles just
Speaker 1: defeated Hector, and he's out there and fighting valiantly, just
Speaker 1: defeating all these people. And then here's Paris, you know,
Speaker 1: hiding way back away, you know, away from danger and
Speaker 1: the safety of the wall, and shoots an arrow guided
Speaker 1: by Apollo and kills the great warrior Achilles. I'm like,
Speaker 1: what a freaking coward.
Speaker 2: He's kind of a pretty boy. There's one point I
Speaker 2: point out to my students where it says he dressed
Speaker 2: up and he slung a leopard hide over himself. And
Speaker 2: that's what I taught my students. You didn't know that
Speaker 2: Paris was the first cheetah girl, But yeah, he is.
Speaker 2: He's not very bad, and you can tell Helen's getting
Speaker 2: tired of this good for nothing boy. She wishes she'd
Speaker 2: run off with Hector's but he worthwhile, so Paris. It's
Speaker 2: not exactly that Paris is evil, but he's more cowardly
Speaker 2: and and he in one sense he lacks the will,
Speaker 2: but sometimes he's also very impulsive. It does silly things
Speaker 2: like stealing away Helen, so he can beat a child
Speaker 2: like a child. He doesn't really have a heart. He
Speaker 2: vacillates back and forth. He's nothing like his brother Hector.
Speaker 2: I mean, most people read the Iliot like Hector more
Speaker 2: than Achilles, because he's a very noble He's in a
Speaker 2: sense he's the first Night. And when you read medieval stuff,
Speaker 2: they treat Hector as the first Night. In fact, if
Speaker 2: you read Sart gambling in the Green Knight, they trace
Speaker 2: everything back to Troy and they talk about Hector and
Speaker 2: you know, the idea of the night. He was one
Speaker 2: of the nine Worthies of the ancient world, as they
Speaker 2: talked about in their Shakespeare minchs in one of his
Speaker 2: play I think it's Love's Labor's lost, but yeah, it was.
Speaker 2: It was Hector that becomes the the one that is
Speaker 2: like a knight, who is brave but also you know,
Speaker 2: pure and good. And of course Hector has his impulsive
Speaker 2: moments and it leads to his downfall as well. But
Speaker 2: the scene in book six when Hector says farewell to
Speaker 2: his wife androp making and his little boy is dieanexes
Speaker 2: one of the most human moments in the ancient world
Speaker 2: are all of literature, and these are really see justin
Speaker 2: I get so mad and they've been doing this evil
Speaker 2: when I was a kid, where they try to make
Speaker 2: you believe that before the modern world, before feminism, that
Speaker 2: all men looked upon their wives. God, I said, this
Speaker 2: is absolutely ridiculous. First of all, I try to tell
Speaker 2: the kids, they're talking about your grandmother and your great grandmother. Okay,
Speaker 2: was she cattle? Okay? There were good men and there
Speaker 2: were bad men back That's just like there are today.
Speaker 2: But all you have to do is read the farewell
Speaker 2: in book six of the Iliad between a kid and
Speaker 2: you understand the incredible love and intimacy. Or read about
Speaker 2: Odysseus and Pelopy in the Odyssey. Again, this is just ridiculous,
Speaker 2: but it's been We've been made to believe that. Look, Ben,
Speaker 2: you know, at my school is very, very diverse, and
Speaker 2: you know, I'm friends with lots of folks that are
Speaker 2: Muslim and from the Middle East. And I said, most
Speaker 2: Muslims treat their wives with more respect than Americans do.
Speaker 2: And now they treat them as women, they don't treat
Speaker 2: them as men with breasts. Okay. But a lot of
Speaker 2: things now, yeah, I mean there's lots of things in
Speaker 2: Islam in general that are very bad. But you meet
Speaker 2: the typical Middle Eastern person and you will see respect
Speaker 2: for their mother and the women and their that exceeds
Speaker 2: us who we think that being a good person is
Speaker 2: treating men and women exactly the same. That would have
Speaker 2: been called a sexist when I was a kid. Now
Speaker 2: you're called the sexist if you don't treat men and
Speaker 2: women similar ridiculous. We've lost any sense of, you know,
Speaker 2: the value of womanhood or manhood for that part, and
Speaker 2: so we've got to get away from this idea. There
Speaker 2: were bad people back then, just like they're bad people now.
Speaker 2: But again, you know, women have more political rights nowadays,
Speaker 2: But to say they're better off, they're more anxious, they're
Speaker 2: more modeally, they're more cut off, they're more disappointed. I mean,
Speaker 2: it's again, it's just that chronological snobbery again that makes
Speaker 2: us think we're better than all the past eras you know, crazing.
Speaker 1: And one thing that we kind of touched down with
Speaker 1: jud in our last discussion, but I'd like to just
Speaker 1: maybe go a little deeper and kind of gets your
Speaker 1: thoughts on it was this was not only a battle
Speaker 1: of humanity, but this was a battle of the gods.
Speaker 1: You get a lot of interplay back and forth of
Speaker 1: kind of like how the Bible talks about the Divine Council, right,
Speaker 1: you know, God sets on his throne amongst his holy
Speaker 1: ones and cast judgment. So it kind of goes back
Speaker 1: and forth, and you see that there's lines drone in
Speaker 1: the heavenly realm. The different gods kind of choose their sides,
Speaker 1: and throughout this war they actually take physical form and
Speaker 1: go down and they fight, and they encourage and they
Speaker 1: divise schemes and do all these things, and there's so
Speaker 1: much division even on Mount Olympus. At one point, Zeus
Speaker 1: has to play the good father and scream at everybody
Speaker 1: and tell them to stop fighting. And if anybody else interferes,
Speaker 1: I want to hit you with a thunderbolt. You know,
Speaker 1: I'm tighten you up like Southern man. He shows the bail.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: The thing is is that you read it and you
Speaker 2: recognize something like the Divine Council in the Bible. The
Speaker 2: difference is there's no God, right, Zeus has elements of Yahweh,
Speaker 2: but he's still a created being himself and is anywhere
Speaker 2: nowhere is near perfect in any way. But it's almost
Speaker 2: like the Pagan writers have an idea that there must
Speaker 2: be going because there are parts of Greek pathology where
Speaker 2: it says Zeus is stronger than all the other gods
Speaker 2: put together, and he really is raised up, but he's
Speaker 2: still a creative being. I mean, Poseidon and Hades are
Speaker 2: his brothers. They're brothers of the same father and mother,
Speaker 2: so they're not And if they say, if they want
Speaker 2: to read the Annuba Ilishu and the gods still come
Speaker 2: out of the chaos, right, there is no god that
Speaker 2: predates it, right, And what the gods try to do
Speaker 2: is make order out of chaos. You know. One of
Speaker 2: the reasons Jordan Peterson talks about order is masculine and
Speaker 2: chaos is feminine. He knows is a numa Eligi and
Speaker 2: Tiamot who is chaos, who is the dragon, is also feminine,
Speaker 2: and Marduke is the masculine principle that tries to bring
Speaker 2: order out of chaos. Now we all know that one time,
Speaker 2: oftentimes the flaw and a man is when we, as
Speaker 2: a father or whatever, become too orderly and crush everybody. Right,
Speaker 2: but still the order is needed to hold back the chaos,
Speaker 2: and we can see that played out. But again, whether
Speaker 2: in the Babylonia or the Greek or the Roman and
Speaker 2: the Norse, there is no God, who is I am
Speaker 2: that I am right? The gods in other words, only
Speaker 2: Yahweh does not have an origin story. Okay, every god
Speaker 2: has an origin story in all the mythology of the world.
Speaker 2: But God is right. He is the one who is
Speaker 2: and he creates everything. Right. You could even say that
Speaker 2: he creates the chaos that he then orders whatever, but
Speaker 2: you do I mean, for instance, people point to Daniel.
Speaker 2: Daniel is praying and after a long time, the ain
Speaker 2: is Michael. The angel comes to him and says, I
Speaker 2: am the answer to your prayer, and he's like, well,
Speaker 2: you took a long time, buddy. He said, well, I'm sorry.
Speaker 2: I was delayed because I was fighting against the Prince
Speaker 2: of Persia. And it seems pretty clear that what we're
Speaker 2: talking about is spiritual forces behind these earthly kings, because
Speaker 2: it makes no sense that this angelic being is fighting
Speaker 2: a human king of Persia. It is the is it
Speaker 2: the eloheme or the spiritual being that is behind the
Speaker 2: Prince of Persia. And so there is a war. Just
Speaker 2: like again that epics always take place on two levels,
Speaker 2: the earthly mortal level and the immortal level, and they're
Speaker 2: always rubbing against each other, right, and they're always influencing
Speaker 2: each other. Uh, something is going on in the earthly
Speaker 2: realms and something else is going on up in the heavenlys,
Speaker 2: and they influence each other. But once again, only in
Speaker 2: the Bible do you have God? Okay, you only there
Speaker 2: do you have a God? Who is I am? That
Speaker 2: I am? But yeah, we see it, You're right, you
Speaker 2: see it in the indead as well. But in a
Speaker 2: sense it's more powerful in the alien the Odyssey because
Speaker 2: the Eneid is a more self conscious work where Virgil
Speaker 2: is imitating Homer and doing other things. But when you
Speaker 2: get Homer, you're getting the raw, the raw oral tradition. Uh,
Speaker 2: you know, like coming out of bail Wolf or something
Speaker 2: like that, and you're you're catching a glimpse of how
Speaker 2: all these ancient people understand that there are two levels
Speaker 2: of action and not just what you know. What's his
Speaker 2: name Charles Taylor, right, the famous guy who wrote Secular Age.
Speaker 2: He said that before the modern period, before the Enlightenment,
Speaker 2: we lived in a porous universe, like water going back
Speaker 2: and forth, porous, So the supernatural realm is affecting the
Speaker 2: natural back and forth. It's porous. But since the Enlightenment
Speaker 2: we live in what he calls a buffered world. We
Speaker 2: are buffered and we don't feel any fear of that.
Speaker 2: And I can't remember who said this, but it was
Speaker 2: so brilliant that in the old porous world, when there
Speaker 2: was an understanding of spiritual forces and the ancestors and
Speaker 2: all that sort of stuff, you have all sorts of
Speaker 2: rituals to protect yourself from that unseen realm. And I
Speaker 2: love what this guy said. The kimberber was But in
Speaker 2: some ways, in the modern world, the way we treat
Speaker 2: hygiene as a religion. I'm not talking about just you know,
Speaker 2: bathe now and then and be careful. I'm talking about
Speaker 2: hygiene taught as a religion in our public schools.
Speaker 1: And it's nineteen was that two thousand nine?
Speaker 2: Thank you? That's right, that's right with the with covid Brook,
Speaker 2: where the ritual and regime of this is going to
Speaker 2: protect us from the invisible right now. I'm not saying
Speaker 2: that germs are not real. Germs are very real, and
Speaker 2: we do have to be careful and take care of ourselves.
Speaker 2: But we've turned it into a sort of religion. And
Speaker 2: by the way, CSMs makes fun of that in the
Speaker 2: very beginning of Voiage of the Dawn Treader, where Eustas
Speaker 2: Clarence scrub always got the highest marks in hygiene in school.
Speaker 2: So Lewis is making fun of that. If you read
Speaker 2: that first chapter, that's kind of funny. But but again
Speaker 2: it's we think we're safe, but we have a I
Speaker 2: think we have an in built understanding of an invisible
Speaker 2: realm that needs to be reckoned with. And like I said,
Speaker 2: we've just turned it into germs at all. Like that,
Speaker 2: there's no supernatural anymore. It's just jumps.
Speaker 1: It's kind And one thing that I seen, and I
Speaker 1: might have been looking too deep into it, and I'm
Speaker 1: guilty of that, was one of the interferences of the gods. Sorry.
Speaker 4: Uh.
Speaker 1: One of the interferences of the gods was a swing
Speaker 1: point in the war was the Trojans had them backed
Speaker 1: up to the ships, and this was during the time
Speaker 1: when Zeus told him no more interfering, and Harah tried
Speaker 1: to seduce Zeus and like you know, and so she
Speaker 1: ends up going to Afrodite and gets this girdle of
Speaker 1: desire and then gets a sleeping potion from the god
Speaker 1: of Sleep. So she's like, well, I want to go
Speaker 1: seduce him. Have sex with him, give him this potion.
Speaker 1: He's going to go to sleep. Then we can go
Speaker 1: down help the our opposing sides and do what we want.
Speaker 1: So it's like it took. Those were the two that
Speaker 1: honestly got kind of this thing started because those two
Speaker 1: gods were fighting over who was the fairest involved in
Speaker 1: Paris and caused this whole conflict. So by those two
Speaker 1: working together in the heavenles puting Zeus to sleep, restored
Speaker 1: balance back on the battlefield and ultimately wound up with
Speaker 1: Troy falling, which was sad for Troy, but ended up
Speaker 1: restoring everything back to the way it was.
Speaker 2: And see the ironny of all of this justice, This
Speaker 2: is why Zeus does have an element of God even
Speaker 2: though he's still a created big and Okay, all of
Speaker 2: this starts because Achilles makes a prayer to Zeus through
Speaker 2: his mother Fetus, and the reason Zeus has to accept
Speaker 2: Thetus is because he owes her one big time, right,
Speaker 2: I mean that's the backstory, And all the terrible prayer
Speaker 2: of Achilles is, oh, Zeus, let the Greeks start losing
Speaker 2: so that they'll realize how important I am, and then
Speaker 2: they'll beg me to come back right now, here's the thing.
Speaker 2: The reason that the reason that Hera does this to
Speaker 2: Zeus is because she believes that Zeus is helping Hector
Speaker 2: and the Trojans, and she hates the Trojans because Paris
Speaker 2: didn't give her the apple. But the irony is that
Speaker 2: overall he's only raising up Hector so that Achilles can
Speaker 2: defeat him. In other words, all along Zeus is actually
Speaker 2: on the side of the Greeks, and the Greeks are
Speaker 2: going to win, but hero doesn't know that because she's
Speaker 2: just looking at what's happening and jumpy to conclusions. So
Speaker 2: and of course, but then the other way Zeus is
Speaker 2: not like God is that when Hector is about to die,
Speaker 2: Zeus wants to save him. He forgets this was all
Speaker 2: his plot in the beginning. Earlier on, when Petroclis is
Speaker 2: going on a role, Zeus says as the king of
Speaker 2: the gods, he says, okay, Petroclus is going to be
Speaker 2: riled up, and he's going to go and fight, and
Speaker 2: he is going to gain glory, even killing my son Sarpedin.
Speaker 2: But then Hector will kill him, and then Achilles will
Speaker 2: kill Hector. So he has actually prophesied both the death
Speaker 2: of his son Sarpedin and the death of Hector, and
Speaker 2: both cases, when it's about to happen, he tries to
Speaker 2: stop it and is unable to. And when his son
Speaker 2: Sarpedin dies one of the most amazing moments in the
Speaker 2: whole Iliad, it says, and Zeus wept tears of blood. Wow,
Speaker 2: suddenly this incredible scene. And hera in that scene, it's Hara.
Speaker 2: In book twenty two, it's Athena. They both tell him, hey,
Speaker 2: can't save your beloved because it's going to be a
Speaker 2: real bad precedent. And then all the gods want to
Speaker 2: save their sons and their favorites. And there, you know,
Speaker 2: because a lot of the gods are almost patrons. Like
Speaker 2: la Athena loves Odysseus and always helps him, even though
Speaker 2: it's not her son. She's a virgin goddess first of all.
Speaker 2: But again, Zeus has a vision that surpasses the other gods,
Speaker 2: so that makes them like, yeahweh But ultimately he gets
Speaker 2: caught in his own traps like everybody else does, so
Speaker 2: he's not the ultimate god. He is also a created being.
Speaker 2: He's just stronger, so all you know, again, it's very,
Speaker 2: very complex. I mean, who When you read the Ilien
Speaker 2: and it's got all the repetition because it's based on
Speaker 2: an oral tradition, sometimes you think, God, this is just
Speaker 2: all plot. But the more you read it, the more
Speaker 2: incredible levels of complexity there are. Even sometimes Homer will
Speaker 2: use the repetition in a more thematic way, more powerful
Speaker 2: way to make connections between characters and themes and whatnot.
Speaker 2: So Homer did not write the stories. He got them
Speaker 2: from the oral tradition, but he perfected them. And a
Speaker 2: lot of people know that that, with maybe one or
Speaker 2: two exceptions, none of Shakespeare's plots are original. He borrowed
Speaker 2: his plots from all over the place. Sometimes they were like, well,
Speaker 2: we would call a soap opera plot, but then he
Speaker 2: took it and made it into something beautiful. As they said,
Speaker 2: Shakespeare could take a sal's ear, the pig of an ear,
Speaker 2: and turn it into a silk purse. And that's what
Speaker 2: Homer does as well. Because the past was not all
Speaker 2: based on originality, we think the only important thing is originality.
Speaker 2: That's not what anybody thought before the Romantic age. You'd
Speaker 2: take what was done before and you perfect it. You
Speaker 2: add your own genius to it. You're given a new
Speaker 2: shape in a new form, like they're doing with the Chosen. Right.
Speaker 2: We all know the Bible stories, but along comes Dallas
Speaker 2: Jenkins and says, let's take a new perspective basically perspective
Speaker 2: from the the the Disciples and see what's going on.
Speaker 2: And so we know the story, but the new perspective
Speaker 2: opens up levels of meeting we probably missed in the beginning.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's what's all about. That's one thing I always
Speaker 1: say in the show. You know, it's it's all about perspective,
Speaker 1: and sometimes we have to just take a second look
Speaker 1: at all these things from a different perspective.
Speaker 2: From a different lens, maybe a prometheus lens. That's the
Speaker 2: title for a show. Oh that's what it is. There
Speaker 2: we go. That's right. See was Zodi in here? Yeah,
Speaker 2: if you don't see a lot less hair than when
Speaker 2: you saw me last time, I just shaved it off
Speaker 2: for the new year. So we're too shiny here. You
Speaker 2: have to watch outline some of the people watching it.
Speaker 2: So we'll see if we can get a cloth there.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, for those that don't know spoiler alert, you know,
Speaker 1: the Trojans lose and it's all by trickery. They end
Speaker 1: up building this grand horse, and they put like twenty
Speaker 1: six guys or something like that in there, don't they.
Speaker 1: And then they pushed the horse out onto the battlefield
Speaker 1: and they act like they leave, and they leaving this
Speaker 1: gift to them in submission. And then they roll the
Speaker 1: big statue into the inside the walls, and while they're asleep,
Speaker 1: those men escape and let down the walls, and that
Speaker 1: is the fall of Troy.
Speaker 2: It's amazing. I sometimes I prefer the Trojan rabbit from
Speaker 2: money types into the Holy Grail, remember the Trojan rap
Speaker 2: They we got to put people in there, and then
Speaker 2: it comes kind of over anyway. But people don't understand
Speaker 2: that that's not where the alien ends. The Alien ends
Speaker 2: with the reconciliation of It ends with the reconciliation of
Speaker 2: Achilles and Prime, and then they agree to take a
Speaker 2: high in the war of two weeks so everybody can
Speaker 2: bury their dead, and the last line of the Trojan,
Speaker 2: the last line of the Ilia is and thus they
Speaker 2: buried Hector, Tamer of horses. So it ends in a lull.
Speaker 2: Now everybody knows that two weeks later it's going to start.
Speaker 2: All this terrible stuff's going to happen all to death
Speaker 2: and burning down to the city. But Homer Holker doesn't
Speaker 2: begin at the beginning, and he doesn't end at the end.
Speaker 2: It's a beautifully shaped esthetic thing. You might have learned
Speaker 2: this in high school, justin that epics don't begin at
Speaker 2: the beginning. They begin in medias rests, which is Latin
Speaker 2: for in the middle of things. We like dive in
Speaker 2: and then we find out. And old Hollywood movies were
Speaker 2: so good at that you just dive right in and
Speaker 2: then we get a flashback to find out what happened before.
Speaker 2: But for some reason, modern Hollywood thinks flashbacks are old fashioned,
Speaker 2: old fashion. If they work, they work. A lot of
Speaker 2: the old films were really tightly written, most of them
Speaker 2: because they were reading Aristotle poetics. Who teaches you how
Speaker 2: to write a tight play or a tight script? And
Speaker 2: I miss those kind of things. And for those people
Speaker 2: that like old Hollywood. This past summer I published a
Speaker 2: book called My Life in Film, How the Movie Shape
Speaker 2: My Soul? When I look at twenty movies from the
Speaker 2: Golden Age of Hollywood, that's the nineteen thirties and forties,
Speaker 2: Citizen Kane, Casablanca, Wuthering Heights, mister Smith goes to Washington.
Speaker 2: It's a wonderful life. All these wonderful films, and I
Speaker 2: talk about them and the message and how they shape
Speaker 2: me in things. So I'm always trying to do something different. C. S.
Speaker 2: Lewis is my role model. And C. S. Lewis wrote
Speaker 2: every kind of genre imaginable. So it's like, let's press
Speaker 2: ourselves and do things and fine goodness, truth and beauty
Speaker 2: in all different places, which is kind of what I
Speaker 2: try to do in my speaking and in my writing.
Speaker 2: And again look at it through the new lends and
Speaker 2: scene through.
Speaker 1: That's awesome. Yeah, comes out, man, Definitely have to bring
Speaker 1: you back on and we'll talk about the power of
Speaker 1: film and everybody that's already out.
Speaker 2: Yeah. The one that's coming out in the spring is
Speaker 2: passing the torch Uh an apology for classical Christian education,
Speaker 2: for an education that brings together Judeo Christian and Greco rum.
Speaker 8: And that's okay, okay, gotcha a lot of stuff to
Speaker 8: talk about.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, man, I love these conversations. Anytime we can
Speaker 1: get together and you're willing, I love sitting and just
Speaker 1: conversating with you. You're a deep well of knowledge. Lou
Speaker 1: and I like to get in and get me a
Speaker 1: swig whenever I can.
Speaker 2: We go, but make sure you choose rightly.
Speaker 1: Yeah, chose wisely.
Speaker 2: Wisely.
Speaker 1: Hey, before we go, lou let everybody know where they
Speaker 1: can find you. Man, thank you.
Speaker 2: The easiest thing is just go to Amazon comp dot
Speaker 2: com and type in Lewis Marcos m A R. KOs.
Speaker 2: It's a Greek name, and you'll see all my books
Speaker 2: are there. If you go to YouTube and type in
Speaker 2: Lewis Marcos, I got a YouTube channel with lots of
Speaker 2: free videos and stuff like that. But that's the best
Speaker 2: way to go to Amazon. I've got all my stuff
Speaker 2: on there and it's real easy.
Speaker 1: Nice. I will thank you so much, man, and I
Speaker 1: hope you have a very merry Christmas as the time
Speaker 1: of this recording, and you have a good, safe trip
Speaker 1: and a good time with your family.
Speaker 2: Brother. I should say before I get off, I forgot
Speaker 2: to say this that a new movie just came out
Speaker 2: called The Return with Ralph Fines and Juliette Binoche, and
Speaker 2: it's basically the last half of the Odyssey where Odysseus
Speaker 2: comes home and defeats the suitors. Now I have heard
Speaker 2: some good things. I was listening to Andrew Clavin, you know,
Speaker 2: that's the dude on the Daily Wire, and he was
Speaker 2: saying that even though it was well made, he did
Speaker 2: not like the way they modernized it and made it
Speaker 2: into an anti war book and all this sort of
Speaker 2: stuff that would have meant nothing to the audience. So
Speaker 2: I still need to see it. But most people are
Speaker 2: saying it is at least very well acted and very
Speaker 2: well shot, so I will see. But again, I've heard
Speaker 2: a few people say that, you know, it's trying to
Speaker 2: push a modern ethos on something would not But again,
Speaker 2: I'm sure it's really good. I'm rea need to see it.
Speaker 1: So yeah, yeah, when that trailer come out, Actually, jud
Speaker 1: had sent me that on Facebook. It was like, justin,
Speaker 1: you need to go check this out, and I forgotten
Speaker 1: about it until you mentioned it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and then see what it's like. I'm kind of excited.
Speaker 2: And you know, Ralph Fines and Julian Pinosch were in
Speaker 2: the movie The English Patient together, but that was like,
Speaker 2: I don't twenty five years ago or something. It went
Speaker 2: Best Picture, so it's kind of neat to have a
Speaker 2: reunion the first time they've worked together since then, and
Speaker 2: they're both really great actor and actress.
Speaker 1: All right, well we'll sign up, all right? Man, Well,
Speaker 1: thank you Lee, I appreciate it. Guys, be sure to
Speaker 1: check out loo stuff. Man, he's gotten so many great books.
Speaker 1: And honestly, next year, actually probably this year, by the
Speaker 1: time you watch this, this probably come out first a year.
Speaker 1: But I want to do a study with you guys
Speaker 1: for for my All Access Past members, and we're going
Speaker 1: to dive through the Myth Made Fact because I think
Speaker 1: that'd be a great study for us. We go through
Speaker 1: that he write that book is very well written, and
Speaker 1: it's made for study groups. It's got good questions on.
Speaker 2: That book by Michael Heiser before he died. Yes, all
Speaker 2: those connections and things like that, because I'm a Michael
Speaker 2: Heiser fan too.
Speaker 1: Well, guys, hope you enjoyed that. Be sure to check
Speaker 1: out his stuff. And hey, just remember the difference between
Speaker 1: the known and the unknown is the journey. Good journey.
Speaker 4: Guys, stand stand stand and Si