1 00:00:11,599 --> 00:00:15,199 Speaker 1: Hey everybody, and welcome to life as a gamble. My 2 00:00:15,400 --> 00:00:21,320 guest today is a self described podcast slut. He is 3 00:00:21,760 --> 00:00:26,640 a lawyer and comedian and welcome to life as a gamble. 4 00:00:26,800 --> 00:00:29,519 Speaker 2: Charles Starr, thank you so much for having me on. 5 00:00:30,559 --> 00:00:34,560 Speaker 1: So first of all, I didn't know of you at 6 00:00:34,560 --> 00:00:39,520 all until I heard you on David Hill's podcast American 7 00:00:39,520 --> 00:00:43,039 Gambler book Club, which I highly recommend to people who 8 00:00:43,079 --> 00:00:45,200 still read books. I know there are some of us 9 00:00:45,280 --> 00:00:48,600 out there that still do that, sure, But the thing 10 00:00:48,640 --> 00:00:52,560 that caught my attention was you are trying to do 11 00:00:53,119 --> 00:00:55,679 as a guest. You are trying to do fifty three 12 00:00:55,759 --> 00:01:00,600 podcasts in fifty two weeks, and that doesn't count podcast 13 00:01:00,719 --> 00:01:05,640 that you produce yourself. So is this on a bet 14 00:01:05,840 --> 00:01:08,560 or how did this happen? What is it? What happened there? 15 00:01:08,879 --> 00:01:11,239 Speaker 2: It is on a bet, but a bet on the 16 00:01:11,359 --> 00:01:17,640 level of trading places you know like there, And it's 17 00:01:17,680 --> 00:01:21,319 not a bet, it is more it is more me 18 00:01:21,599 --> 00:01:25,680 being kind of a jerk for laughs. What happened was 19 00:01:26,079 --> 00:01:29,120 and I'm not going to shy away from promoting my colleague, 20 00:01:29,159 --> 00:01:31,920 but Josh Berman, who has two of his own podcasts, 21 00:01:32,439 --> 00:01:38,319 decided around December of last year, Christmasy said, I want 22 00:01:38,359 --> 00:01:40,519 to promote my own stuff and to promote my own 23 00:01:40,560 --> 00:01:43,000 stuff and to you know, kind of put my marker 24 00:01:43,040 --> 00:01:46,079 down on forcing me to do that. I want to 25 00:01:46,120 --> 00:01:48,439 get on fifty two podcasts. I want to average a 26 00:01:48,439 --> 00:01:51,799 podcast a week in twenty twenty six. And I saw 27 00:01:51,840 --> 00:01:54,519 that and I just as a joke, but it's only 28 00:01:54,640 --> 00:01:57,799 sort of joking on the square because I also very 29 00:01:57,879 --> 00:02:02,000 much meant it, said I all I want is to 30 00:02:02,040 --> 00:02:06,159 be on one more podcast than Josh and so and 31 00:02:06,200 --> 00:02:09,439 so that established the challenge is now he wants to 32 00:02:09,439 --> 00:02:11,840 do fifty two, and so I said, okay, I want 33 00:02:11,879 --> 00:02:14,360 to do fifty and if he beats it, I still 34 00:02:14,400 --> 00:02:20,639 have to beat him by one. So you know, we 35 00:02:20,680 --> 00:02:24,439 are just we are now in an arms race. 36 00:02:24,719 --> 00:02:27,400 Speaker 1: And did to start it as of January first. 37 00:02:27,719 --> 00:02:31,599 Speaker 2: As of January first, Yeah, calendar calendar year twenty twenty six. 38 00:02:31,680 --> 00:02:34,719 Speaker 1: And we are now nearing the end of July. And 39 00:02:34,800 --> 00:02:36,360 where do you guys stand. 40 00:02:36,479 --> 00:02:42,080 Speaker 2: At the end of July? In released podcasts, he is 41 00:02:42,240 --> 00:02:47,479 winning thirty four to thirty three. But including this recording, 42 00:02:48,199 --> 00:02:52,759 I have an undisclosed number in the can awaiting release 43 00:02:53,759 --> 00:02:58,919 from people who who have the podcasts and have to 44 00:02:59,039 --> 00:03:02,680 edit them. I am comfortable with my position. I also 45 00:03:02,719 --> 00:03:06,520 have a very busy week because I have no self 46 00:03:06,560 --> 00:03:10,919 control and oh, the next few days are going to 47 00:03:10,960 --> 00:03:16,719 be a combination thrill ride nightmare as everything revolves around 48 00:03:16,759 --> 00:03:19,520 me being back in front of my computer. Another podcast. 49 00:03:20,080 --> 00:03:24,240 Speaker 1: So in addition to all of that, you have two 50 00:03:24,439 --> 00:03:28,400 of your own podcasts that you do so and what 51 00:03:28,520 --> 00:03:29,599 are those two? 52 00:03:29,599 --> 00:03:32,800 Speaker 2: Okay, Well, I do have two, though only one of 53 00:03:32,840 --> 00:03:35,680 them is currently running. The one that's currently running is 54 00:03:35,719 --> 00:03:38,400 called No Homework, which I do with two of my 55 00:03:38,759 --> 00:03:41,360 friends who I have met in real life but I 56 00:03:41,439 --> 00:03:45,960 know through social media and shared interest in sports and 57 00:03:46,039 --> 00:03:49,800 left wing politics basically. And that one is called No Homework, 58 00:03:50,639 --> 00:03:56,039 and we don't really have We say it's about hardly 59 00:03:56,159 --> 00:04:00,199 bad jobs and hardly working, but we don't really stick 60 00:04:00,280 --> 00:04:02,240 to that theme at all. It's like in any other 61 00:04:02,319 --> 00:04:07,000 podcast about three white guys and then and then we 62 00:04:07,120 --> 00:04:11,479 have and then we have guests on from time to time, 63 00:04:11,680 --> 00:04:13,759 and it's a lot of fun. I think it's a 64 00:04:13,759 --> 00:04:16,920 lot of fun. The second one we only do during 65 00:04:17,000 --> 00:04:20,279 football season, and that is City Sat Country Saint, which 66 00:04:20,360 --> 00:04:24,800 I do with one of my colleagues from no homework 67 00:04:25,240 --> 00:04:28,959 because he is also, like me, a New Orleans Saints fan, 68 00:04:29,199 --> 00:04:32,079 and so that's a football season, so that one's coming up, 69 00:04:32,360 --> 00:04:34,360 but we don't do it for the preseason games. Like 70 00:04:34,399 --> 00:04:39,839 we'll do one pre season preview episode. We did a 71 00:04:39,920 --> 00:04:43,480 draft episode if you know are if you know a 72 00:04:43,519 --> 00:04:49,920 ref Hassan who you know has a great football newsletter 73 00:04:50,480 --> 00:04:54,600 called Wide Left and a vikings podcast and another like 74 00:04:54,720 --> 00:05:02,160 goofy football podcast is his vikings podcast is I'm promoting 75 00:05:02,199 --> 00:05:08,480 everyone else's stuff. It's no Norse something but now I'm forgetting. 76 00:05:08,839 --> 00:05:11,360 And he's got one called sixty Minute Drill, which he doesn't. 77 00:05:11,439 --> 00:05:14,680 So he's like a great football writer and think talker 78 00:05:14,759 --> 00:05:18,040 and stuff. So we had him do a draft analysis 79 00:05:18,480 --> 00:05:21,560 of the Saints drass and so that's our only off season. 80 00:05:22,519 --> 00:05:25,439 And then in the past I've had three other like 81 00:05:26,279 --> 00:05:29,639 podcast experience, like things that you know I did for 82 00:05:29,680 --> 00:05:31,279 a while that were kind of. 83 00:05:31,279 --> 00:05:33,879 Speaker 1: Law comedy thing law comedy, right. 84 00:05:33,759 --> 00:05:37,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, because we're all like those podcasts were all lawyers. Yeah, 85 00:05:37,360 --> 00:05:39,959 those podcasts were I'm also a lawyer. We you know, 86 00:05:40,040 --> 00:05:45,120 we would take the law seriously, uh society and ourselves 87 00:05:45,120 --> 00:05:48,519 a lot less. So it was a very kind of 88 00:05:48,680 --> 00:05:52,199 jaded that the way the world is failing us. 89 00:05:52,240 --> 00:05:56,959 Speaker 1: All right, So your background is you went to law school, 90 00:05:57,160 --> 00:06:00,600 you were a lawyer with a big firm, and you 91 00:06:00,879 --> 00:06:03,360 gave that all up to do stand up comedy. 92 00:06:03,519 --> 00:06:06,959 Speaker 2: Is that right? Yeah? Yeah, yeah, I mean I really 93 00:06:08,079 --> 00:06:12,319 I graduated in ninety eight from law school, and I 94 00:06:12,360 --> 00:06:15,279 just went path of least resistance. You know. I went 95 00:06:15,319 --> 00:06:17,959 to a good law school, which makes it really easy, 96 00:06:17,959 --> 00:06:19,639 and I went to a good law school in New 97 00:06:19,720 --> 00:06:23,000 York City, which makes it really easy to get a 98 00:06:23,040 --> 00:06:30,000 pretty good job in New York without necessarily blowing the 99 00:06:30,079 --> 00:06:34,319 doors off your law school grades. And so I, you know, 100 00:06:34,480 --> 00:06:36,879 I fell into it. I didn't really want to do it, 101 00:06:36,920 --> 00:06:40,439 but I had a lot of loans, and I stuck 102 00:06:40,480 --> 00:06:43,319 it out for six years. You know. I had one 103 00:06:43,399 --> 00:06:46,879 firm that I didn't like working for, one firm that 104 00:06:47,000 --> 00:06:49,240 I didn't really like being a lawyer, but I like 105 00:06:49,360 --> 00:06:55,480 the people for four years and then that firm kind 106 00:06:55,480 --> 00:06:58,920 of collapsed when you know, the gods on Olympus couldn't 107 00:06:58,959 --> 00:07:02,360 get along anymore, and it fractured into a bunch of 108 00:07:02,360 --> 00:07:07,160 different pieces, and the you know, the peons below just 109 00:07:07,279 --> 00:07:10,160 followed one of the partners and then the guy who 110 00:07:10,199 --> 00:07:13,240 I stuck with went to another really really big firm, 111 00:07:13,800 --> 00:07:16,680 and so after a year of that, I was like, 112 00:07:16,759 --> 00:07:19,040 I would rather do anything of them. And you know, 113 00:07:19,120 --> 00:07:20,639 I had always wanted to be a comic, so I 114 00:07:20,720 --> 00:07:21,079 just quit. 115 00:07:22,000 --> 00:07:24,759 Speaker 1: Yeah, I used to work in the film business, and 116 00:07:24,800 --> 00:07:29,040 it seemed like every time I turned around, the guy 117 00:07:29,319 --> 00:07:33,959 running to get coffee was a lawyer who who had 118 00:07:34,000 --> 00:07:38,560 given up law. And you know, those people very quickly 119 00:07:38,800 --> 00:07:41,600 rose through the ranks and became producers and things. But 120 00:07:43,360 --> 00:07:46,839 you know, one friend said to me, I really loved 121 00:07:47,839 --> 00:07:51,120 law school, and then once I got out, I realized 122 00:07:51,160 --> 00:07:52,680 I hated practicing law. 123 00:07:53,199 --> 00:07:57,120 Speaker 2: That's very much me. Ye, that's very much me. And 124 00:07:57,199 --> 00:07:59,759 I will say the film industry, I think, is a 125 00:07:59,800 --> 00:08:03,120 lot of people who are either on their way too 126 00:08:03,439 --> 00:08:06,639 or on their way from law school. Because the other 127 00:08:06,759 --> 00:08:09,839 thing that law schools are full of is people whose 128 00:08:09,879 --> 00:08:14,199 creative dreams didn't quite work out. Like it is in 129 00:08:14,519 --> 00:08:17,319 like a lot of people who have a way with 130 00:08:17,480 --> 00:08:22,680 words really see like the law as a kind of 131 00:08:22,839 --> 00:08:27,680 different application of that skill. You know, they think about 132 00:08:27,680 --> 00:08:31,839 brief writing, they think about persuasive argument, and so you 133 00:08:31,920 --> 00:08:34,440 see a lot of people in law school who are 134 00:08:34,480 --> 00:08:38,039 going who start in their you know, mid to late 135 00:08:38,120 --> 00:08:42,559 twenties instead of just out of college, who want it 136 00:08:42,600 --> 00:08:45,960 to be writers and hope to be one day again, 137 00:08:46,559 --> 00:08:53,360 but also kind of want a larger apartment, and so 138 00:08:53,399 --> 00:08:55,399 the law school is their path to comfort. 139 00:08:56,039 --> 00:08:59,639 Speaker 1: Yeah. They have really valuable skills in the film industry too, 140 00:08:59,679 --> 00:09:04,120 and any of them become agents and were uh yeah, 141 00:09:04,279 --> 00:09:07,519 or producers as I said, Yeah, some of them have 142 00:09:07,679 --> 00:09:13,399 aspirations to be writers. But you know that writers don't 143 00:09:13,399 --> 00:09:17,000 make any money unless you know, it's kind of like uh, 144 00:09:17,200 --> 00:09:19,440 as I said on my last episode, it's kind of 145 00:09:19,480 --> 00:09:20,360 a lottery job. 146 00:09:20,519 --> 00:09:20,799 Speaker 2: Yeah. 147 00:09:20,840 --> 00:09:23,679 Speaker 1: You either make a lot of money or you starve. 148 00:09:23,919 --> 00:09:26,879 Speaker 2: So yeah, that's right. I think I think that's right. 149 00:09:26,960 --> 00:09:33,320 And I and I decided that after six years of 150 00:09:33,399 --> 00:09:38,279 being an attorney, when I was miserable, gaining weight, just 151 00:09:38,320 --> 00:09:42,200 in really bad mood, I thought that I had fuck 152 00:09:42,279 --> 00:09:46,279 you money and could just walk away. And I had 153 00:09:46,279 --> 00:09:50,759 a very bad idea of us because I I was 154 00:09:50,919 --> 00:09:54,600 just I burned through cash so fair. I had just 155 00:09:54,639 --> 00:09:58,399 bought an apartment, you know, like I just didn't know 156 00:09:59,240 --> 00:10:03,480 like how quick it goes through your fingers when you 157 00:10:03,679 --> 00:10:07,960 have any kind of expenses and so I went back 158 00:10:08,039 --> 00:10:13,600 to the law very quickly, really, but in a temp 159 00:10:13,799 --> 00:10:16,759 like I basically worked as a temp for the next 160 00:10:17,080 --> 00:10:20,519 ten years. But you know, it's better than it's not 161 00:10:20,600 --> 00:10:24,720 like you know, the typing pool kind of temp. You know, 162 00:10:24,799 --> 00:10:28,480 you're getting paid, You're getting paid better than that, you know. 163 00:10:28,639 --> 00:10:31,360 So like by American standards, I'm not going to complain 164 00:10:32,000 --> 00:10:34,559 about what I was making, but by lawyer standards, I 165 00:10:34,600 --> 00:10:35,679 was a peasant. 166 00:10:35,960 --> 00:10:39,159 Speaker 1: Right And New York City is a very expensive place 167 00:10:39,200 --> 00:10:39,919 to live too. 168 00:10:40,159 --> 00:10:44,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean I had, like I felt like 169 00:10:44,360 --> 00:10:47,279 I was sharing my brother and I bought an apartment together. 170 00:10:47,440 --> 00:10:50,440 That was the apartment I owned, And so I had, 171 00:10:50,639 --> 00:10:53,679 like with any kind of job, I had, like an 172 00:10:53,720 --> 00:11:00,320 affordable enough lifestyle. Really I couldn't not work. But you know, 173 00:11:00,399 --> 00:11:03,440 I mean back then as a temp, you know, working 174 00:11:03,919 --> 00:11:06,440 the kind of overtime that they make you work, I 175 00:11:06,480 --> 00:11:10,639 was still you know, making somewhere between sixty which is 176 00:11:10,679 --> 00:11:13,519 not you know, living high on the hog. But I 177 00:11:13,519 --> 00:11:18,320 could afford my apartment, and so it's like nothing to 178 00:11:18,360 --> 00:11:21,879 complain about. And so I don't, you know, it was 179 00:11:22,480 --> 00:11:24,600 it was just less than I could have made if 180 00:11:24,600 --> 00:11:27,440 I wanted to be miserable. My ah life. 181 00:11:28,120 --> 00:11:32,759 Speaker 1: Yeah, so what happened? What was the comedy plan? Was 182 00:11:32,799 --> 00:11:35,480 it the late nights open mics? 183 00:11:35,840 --> 00:11:39,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it was. It was very much just doing 184 00:11:40,000 --> 00:11:43,759 it without a net, like feeling like I was funny. 185 00:11:43,840 --> 00:11:47,360 I was thirty three at that point, and I was like, 186 00:11:47,440 --> 00:11:51,399 I feel like I have enough of a voice that 187 00:11:51,480 --> 00:11:56,120 I can find my way through. And you know, it 188 00:11:56,240 --> 00:11:58,720 worked a little. I never made any money at it, 189 00:11:59,240 --> 00:12:01,799 but I know, like I said, I had a job, 190 00:12:02,159 --> 00:12:04,559 Like there was a It was just a weird confluence 191 00:12:04,559 --> 00:12:08,320 of things because I started doing comedy literally, like I 192 00:12:08,399 --> 00:12:11,799 quit my job and in that week I met the 193 00:12:11,840 --> 00:12:15,919 woman who would become my wife and remain so somehow 194 00:12:16,519 --> 00:12:22,279 and uh and also did my first open mic, right 195 00:12:22,519 --> 00:12:25,600 and so you know, so now I've like I have 196 00:12:25,639 --> 00:12:31,399 a job, and I have this uh passion project, and 197 00:12:31,440 --> 00:12:36,120 I have a girlfriend for the first time really and forever, 198 00:12:36,240 --> 00:12:39,279 if you know, you want to get technical, maybe even ever. 199 00:12:39,919 --> 00:12:43,039 And so it was like I had a lot going 200 00:12:43,080 --> 00:12:47,519 on at that point, and so I I feel like 201 00:12:47,759 --> 00:12:50,559 I made it to the second step really quickly, but 202 00:12:50,679 --> 00:12:53,480 the third step is the one. And so I never 203 00:12:53,799 --> 00:12:57,639 I had like enough highs in my comedy life to 204 00:12:57,840 --> 00:13:01,600 like like it. You know, look back, I still do 205 00:13:01,720 --> 00:13:05,080 it every once in a while. But it was a blast. 206 00:13:05,840 --> 00:13:08,080 It was like a real blast to have a second 207 00:13:08,120 --> 00:13:12,879 thing to do, you know when I was, uh, because 208 00:13:12,919 --> 00:13:17,240 I really hated that job. I really hated that job, 209 00:13:17,600 --> 00:13:21,480 which which being a temp, being a temp attorney. You know, 210 00:13:21,639 --> 00:13:24,879 you're just you know, like your job is doing like 211 00:13:25,159 --> 00:13:30,080 reviewing documents for discovery and litigation. So you're just like 212 00:13:30,159 --> 00:13:34,240 a drone checking boxes on a computer. Relevant, not relevant, 213 00:13:34,240 --> 00:13:38,559 privileged not privileged. It meets one of the you know, 214 00:13:38,720 --> 00:13:44,759 thirty k specific criteria that the attorneys care about. It's 215 00:13:44,840 --> 00:13:49,320 really mindless stuff, you know, at and they want you 216 00:13:49,360 --> 00:13:53,519 to do it at volume, and so it's I it's 217 00:13:53,639 --> 00:13:58,600 really really rough going and so that you know, being 218 00:13:58,639 --> 00:14:01,879 able to go out and open mics, it's like the 219 00:14:01,919 --> 00:14:02,840 only thing that comes. 220 00:14:03,480 --> 00:14:07,120 Speaker 1: And what happened, I mean, eventually after ten years you 221 00:14:07,240 --> 00:14:07,759 quit that. 222 00:14:08,399 --> 00:14:11,840 Speaker 2: Well, what happened? What happened really is I mean I 223 00:14:11,919 --> 00:14:16,000 did it pretty you know, pretty hard, but not as 224 00:14:16,039 --> 00:14:18,480 hard maybe as I could have when you look back 225 00:14:18,519 --> 00:14:20,200 at it. But I was doing a bunch of shows 226 00:14:20,240 --> 00:14:23,639 a week, and I got a couple of festivals, and 227 00:14:24,039 --> 00:14:26,879 I you know, performed around the city and made a 228 00:14:26,879 --> 00:14:30,360 couple of bucks here and there, but very little. And 229 00:14:31,080 --> 00:14:35,120 you know, I had a kid, you know, I had 230 00:14:35,159 --> 00:14:39,200 a kid, you know, a few like four years in 231 00:14:40,039 --> 00:14:42,159 and so I took a break and then I went 232 00:14:42,279 --> 00:14:45,480 back to it. But once you're married with a kid 233 00:14:45,519 --> 00:14:48,279 and you have a day job, how much can you 234 00:14:48,360 --> 00:14:51,720 really do? Right, Like, if you are if you have 235 00:14:51,960 --> 00:14:56,519 like this day job and you're really, really really trying 236 00:14:56,679 --> 00:15:00,840 to do like you know, ten eleven mics week where 237 00:15:00,879 --> 00:15:04,440 you're getting up constantly, constantly, constantly meeting people, going to 238 00:15:04,519 --> 00:15:07,639 shows that you're not even on, Like your whole life 239 00:15:07,879 --> 00:15:11,279 just is soundtracked by cats in the cradle, right, Like 240 00:15:12,639 --> 00:15:15,399 when am I ever going to see that kid? When 241 00:15:15,519 --> 00:15:18,840 is my wife ever going to get a break from, 242 00:15:19,600 --> 00:15:24,639 you know, the less desirable aspect of motherhood, right, So, 243 00:15:25,279 --> 00:15:29,320 like that just sort of slows it down naturally if 244 00:15:29,360 --> 00:15:32,519 you're not close enough to lift off. And I wasn't 245 00:15:32,559 --> 00:15:36,639 remotely close to, you know, achieving any kind of career 246 00:15:36,759 --> 00:15:41,799 liftoff which would make it worth the sacrifice of my 247 00:15:42,080 --> 00:15:45,600 entire family life, and so it just kind of fizzled 248 00:15:45,639 --> 00:15:53,399 out and led to I think prolonged depression because of it, 249 00:15:53,919 --> 00:15:58,679 and then you know, Twitter as a place to tell 250 00:15:58,799 --> 00:16:03,600 jokes at the time time, and then podcasts became the 251 00:16:03,679 --> 00:16:07,960 kind of lifeline where you sort of re establish your 252 00:16:08,039 --> 00:16:12,200 creative self because I was back telling jokes again, like 253 00:16:12,399 --> 00:16:13,120 all the time. 254 00:16:14,000 --> 00:16:17,120 Speaker 1: That's yeah, actually that's kind of exactly. What happened to 255 00:16:17,159 --> 00:16:23,639 me with podcasting was, you know, I had stopped working 256 00:16:23,639 --> 00:16:28,480 in the film industry and I had written a book 257 00:16:28,519 --> 00:16:32,399 that was a collection of interviews, and you make no money, 258 00:16:32,480 --> 00:16:35,279 you know about it's about like being a comedian, they 259 00:16:35,320 --> 00:16:42,679 pay about equally. And I realized, well, podcasting is just 260 00:16:42,840 --> 00:16:46,600 interviewing people without all the work, without all the editing 261 00:16:46,759 --> 00:16:51,159 of the manuscript for you know, hundreds of hours and 262 00:16:51,200 --> 00:16:55,080 all of that kind of stuff. So yeah, it became 263 00:16:55,159 --> 00:16:56,360 a creative outlet. 264 00:16:56,519 --> 00:17:02,120 Speaker 3: And and I know it's point though, I gotta say, 265 00:17:02,200 --> 00:17:06,559 I envy making a career out of gaming, like I'm 266 00:17:06,559 --> 00:17:07,839 making a career out. 267 00:17:07,759 --> 00:17:12,160 Speaker 2: Of you know, the green felt. I mean that's pretty nice. 268 00:17:13,119 --> 00:17:16,279 Speaker 1: Yeah, well yeah, but but it is work, right. 269 00:17:16,200 --> 00:17:18,359 Speaker 2: I mean, yeah, of course, yeah. Yeah. I guess at 270 00:17:18,400 --> 00:17:23,519 a certain point it stops being fun and then it's like, yes. 271 00:17:23,559 --> 00:17:27,759 Speaker 1: No, still fun. Really, I mean the part that's fun 272 00:17:27,880 --> 00:17:30,359 is is you know, I've always said if I had 273 00:17:30,359 --> 00:17:35,240 to play alone, I wouldn't play right. I've always had teammates, partners, 274 00:17:35,400 --> 00:17:38,960 and and that's where the fun comes in, you know stuff. 275 00:17:39,200 --> 00:17:43,039 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean I definitely prefer live poker to 276 00:17:43,039 --> 00:17:46,680 to online. I couldn't. It was like real, that was 277 00:17:46,799 --> 00:17:47,759 that really an't go. 278 00:17:47,880 --> 00:17:51,279 Speaker 1: For Yeah, And you know, I had a foray into 279 00:17:51,319 --> 00:17:55,519 sports betting for a couple of years, and that's that 280 00:17:55,680 --> 00:18:02,640 felt like an accounting job. Really. It was just hours 281 00:18:02,680 --> 00:18:06,079 of time, had spreadsheets keeping track of all the bets 282 00:18:06,119 --> 00:18:09,400 and you know, yeah, you have all these different people 283 00:18:09,480 --> 00:18:11,720 you're working with and they all have a different deal, 284 00:18:11,880 --> 00:18:13,920 and yeah, it was a nice Yeah. 285 00:18:13,799 --> 00:18:19,599 Speaker 2: No, I was. I was corrected onto the straight and 286 00:18:19,680 --> 00:18:23,680 narrow on sports betting very young because I was a 287 00:18:23,680 --> 00:18:27,680 sophomore in high school and one of my one of 288 00:18:27,720 --> 00:18:32,200 the kids in my homeroom from the Bronx definitely had 289 00:18:32,240 --> 00:18:35,400 either a bookie in the family or whatever. But he 290 00:18:35,480 --> 00:18:40,640 brought betting slips to school. And it wasn't the slips 291 00:18:40,640 --> 00:18:43,960 that got me. It was the You'll remember the year 292 00:18:44,039 --> 00:18:46,599 because for some reason, I'm drawing a blank on it, 293 00:18:46,640 --> 00:18:50,279 but I think it was the eighty five playoffs I 294 00:18:50,359 --> 00:18:54,640 gave him three to one on the Cardinals coming back 295 00:18:54,880 --> 00:18:58,519 from three to one down against the Astros and lost, 296 00:18:59,480 --> 00:19:02,240 and then and double or nothing on the Cardinals coming 297 00:19:02,279 --> 00:19:04,920 back from three to one down against the Blue Jays 298 00:19:05,599 --> 00:19:06,759 and then lost again. 299 00:19:07,640 --> 00:19:10,960 Speaker 1: And now, how are you giving him three to one when. 300 00:19:10,880 --> 00:19:13,480 Speaker 2: You're there because I was taking the winning team. I 301 00:19:13,640 --> 00:19:16,480 was taking the team that was up three to one. 302 00:19:17,440 --> 00:19:18,759 Speaker 1: Oh oh oh oh, I'm sorry. 303 00:19:18,839 --> 00:19:23,119 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I'm not dumb, but I was like, honestly, 304 00:19:23,240 --> 00:19:26,160 three to one are pretty good odds for like winning 305 00:19:26,240 --> 00:19:29,640 one of the next three games, in my opinion, But 306 00:19:29,839 --> 00:19:33,519 I by busted both times. And it's not like I 307 00:19:33,559 --> 00:19:36,480 grew up poor, but all that money wasn't mine. So 308 00:19:36,559 --> 00:19:38,359 all of a sudden, I owe this kid in my 309 00:19:38,440 --> 00:19:41,160 homeroom sixty bucks and I'm like, what the fuck did 310 00:19:41,200 --> 00:19:44,440 that happen? And so I was out of the sports 311 00:19:44,440 --> 00:19:47,480 betting game real quick. I'm like, I am not built 312 00:19:47,519 --> 00:19:47,839 for this. 313 00:19:49,640 --> 00:19:52,119 Speaker 1: Yeah, well, it sounds like you had way the best 314 00:19:52,119 --> 00:19:52,319 of it. 315 00:19:52,519 --> 00:19:56,440 Speaker 2: So yeah, I mean, I think, as they say, the 316 00:19:56,440 --> 00:19:59,319 Sklansky dollars were in my favor, but I became I 317 00:19:59,400 --> 00:20:00,680 think more converse. 318 00:20:02,160 --> 00:20:05,519 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's yeah. Get to get into the 319 00:20:05,559 --> 00:20:09,480 gambling business. You have to get over that. Yeah, you 320 00:20:09,559 --> 00:20:13,640 need to learn to deal with with risk and with fluctuations. 321 00:20:14,079 --> 00:20:16,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, I've made it back, and like, I like, that's 322 00:20:16,759 --> 00:20:18,440 the thing. I play poker now, but I would like 323 00:20:18,480 --> 00:20:22,440 sports betting. I'm like, I know, I know nothing. I know, 324 00:20:22,599 --> 00:20:25,400 I know nothing compared to the people make a living 325 00:20:25,440 --> 00:20:27,559 at this. I'm just someone who wants to watch the game. 326 00:20:28,000 --> 00:20:31,559 Speaker 1: Yeah, so at some point you got rid of the 327 00:20:31,599 --> 00:20:33,920 temp job, and what happened then? 328 00:20:34,880 --> 00:20:38,000 Speaker 2: Uh? Well what happened? Well, first of all, the temp 329 00:20:38,079 --> 00:20:41,039 job became a permanent job. Like one of those firms 330 00:20:41,039 --> 00:20:43,839 that I worked as temp for a while hired me. 331 00:20:44,640 --> 00:20:51,359 And I kept trying to I didn't really keep trying 332 00:20:51,440 --> 00:20:53,480 to do stand up. I did try to get a 333 00:20:53,519 --> 00:20:56,960 few writing jobs, and I came very close to like 334 00:20:57,119 --> 00:21:00,799 political comedy shows like Late Night Political many shows. I 335 00:21:00,880 --> 00:21:05,960 was submitting writing packets, like. I never wrote anything sitcom structured, 336 00:21:06,319 --> 00:21:10,839 like I think Elizabeth like writes for that kind of show, right, 337 00:21:11,240 --> 00:21:12,440 Am I wrong about that? 338 00:21:12,839 --> 00:21:19,079 Speaker 1: She's writing for a drama we're talking about, okay, Michael, Yeah, yeah, 339 00:21:19,119 --> 00:21:21,079 Who's last my last episode? 340 00:21:21,319 --> 00:21:24,680 Speaker 2: Yeah? So I never wrote anything like that because I've 341 00:21:24,720 --> 00:21:29,480 never written anything script structured. But I could write monologue jokes, 342 00:21:29,480 --> 00:21:32,759 I could write sketches, you know, in this in the 343 00:21:32,839 --> 00:21:37,279 vein of John Stewart and John Oliver, you know. And 344 00:21:37,319 --> 00:21:40,640 so I would submit packets to those shows, and I 345 00:21:40,720 --> 00:21:42,880 made it past the first round a bunch of times, 346 00:21:42,920 --> 00:21:45,640 and I made it past the second round, and so 347 00:21:46,400 --> 00:21:52,119 it it was like very, uh, very rough to keep 348 00:21:52,160 --> 00:21:56,640 getting to keep getting close without actually closing the deal. 349 00:21:57,119 --> 00:21:59,960 And uh and then I kind of just gave up 350 00:22:00,079 --> 00:22:03,279 for a while and just did my job. And you know, 351 00:22:04,720 --> 00:22:08,079 Twitter was really at that point, literally the only kind 352 00:22:08,079 --> 00:22:11,920 of lifeline was telling Joe, building a small following and 353 00:22:12,440 --> 00:22:16,200 that sort of thing, until I started doing podcast stuff. 354 00:22:16,200 --> 00:22:19,240 And I was like ten years ago when I started 355 00:22:19,279 --> 00:22:24,319 guesting on a friends podcast as his like courts guy. 356 00:22:25,160 --> 00:22:28,039 You know, it was like a comedy news podcast. And 357 00:22:28,079 --> 00:22:31,960 then he would have me on every few episodes to 358 00:22:32,079 --> 00:22:34,599 talk about what was going on in the courts. And 359 00:22:34,640 --> 00:22:38,400 it's like also left wing politics, and so he was 360 00:22:38,480 --> 00:22:41,079 like well versed in the politics of it, but not 361 00:22:41,160 --> 00:22:44,960 necessarily the nuance of court opinions. He's not keeping up 362 00:22:45,039 --> 00:22:48,160 with like appellate decisions. So we would have stuff to 363 00:22:48,240 --> 00:22:51,480 talk about in that regard, and that was my friend 364 00:22:51,559 --> 00:22:55,680 Jeb Lund who's podcast This Week in Atrocity, and that 365 00:22:55,920 --> 00:23:01,440 became my first legal podcast because my appearances on that 366 00:23:02,119 --> 00:23:05,279 inspired some of me and some of my friends to 367 00:23:05,359 --> 00:23:08,519 start our own thing, which at the time was called 368 00:23:08,559 --> 00:23:12,680 Mike Dicta, which is a meaningless football pun and a 369 00:23:12,759 --> 00:23:20,559 really stupid lead, and so we did that. We did 370 00:23:20,599 --> 00:23:25,079 like twenty episodes of that, and it was like, really 371 00:23:25,559 --> 00:23:28,880 for a podcast that came out of nowhere, you know, 372 00:23:28,960 --> 00:23:32,799 by a bunch of nobodies, pretty popular for a little while, 373 00:23:34,119 --> 00:23:38,000 but then, you know, personality clash is largely my fault, 374 00:23:38,039 --> 00:23:39,559 but it fell apart. 375 00:23:40,039 --> 00:23:40,119 Speaker 1: And. 376 00:23:41,720 --> 00:23:43,400 Speaker 2: So then there were just a few more years in 377 00:23:43,440 --> 00:23:50,200 the woods until I started doing a lab series which 378 00:23:50,319 --> 00:23:54,240 was again but that was more legal culture than you know, 379 00:23:54,440 --> 00:23:59,119 case by case analysis, and that just stood for all 380 00:23:59,200 --> 00:24:03,519 lawyers or best there. It's in the acab sense, uh, 381 00:24:03,920 --> 00:24:07,880 And so that was really fun and I joined those guys, 382 00:24:07,920 --> 00:24:10,519 which were some of the same people Dick. I rejoined 383 00:24:10,519 --> 00:24:13,759 them for a while. I had my own thing for 384 00:24:13,799 --> 00:24:19,440 a little bit called Hostile Witness, and you know, some 385 00:24:19,519 --> 00:24:21,200 of that, I like, some of that is the best 386 00:24:21,200 --> 00:24:24,680 work I've ever done. Those podcasts because they were very 387 00:24:24,880 --> 00:24:29,599 They were very funny while being thoughtful and serious and 388 00:24:30,400 --> 00:24:33,640 you know, serious about the law, serious about the social 389 00:24:33,720 --> 00:24:36,839 impact of the law, but a bunch of funny people 390 00:24:36,880 --> 00:24:41,720 telling funny jokes throughout it. And you know, and then 391 00:24:41,799 --> 00:24:45,200 when I on Hostile Witness, I did you know, after 392 00:24:46,880 --> 00:24:51,599 the first trans rights case, when Gorsa shocked the world 393 00:24:51,720 --> 00:24:58,279 by coming down on the side of transgenderism being covered 394 00:24:58,920 --> 00:25:05,799 by title set Wait, I always title nine being covered 395 00:25:05,799 --> 00:25:08,880 by title Well, now I'm forgetting whichever it is it's 396 00:25:08,920 --> 00:25:11,480 the gender, because now I'm forgetting if it's just one 397 00:25:11,519 --> 00:25:14,200 is employment and one is school, I think that's what 398 00:25:14,240 --> 00:25:17,160 it is, that nine is education and seven is employed, 399 00:25:17,400 --> 00:25:25,680 but gender discrimination in employment was covered transgenderism. And uh. 400 00:25:25,759 --> 00:25:30,079 And so I did an interview with two legal scholars 401 00:25:30,720 --> 00:25:34,720 where we just spent an hour talking about that case 402 00:25:34,960 --> 00:25:39,440 and its impact and really how I thought Gorsuch was 403 00:25:39,559 --> 00:25:43,359 leaving himself a back door to eventually change his mind 404 00:25:43,559 --> 00:25:47,400 and screw all the trans people all over again, which 405 00:25:47,440 --> 00:25:52,200 he then did this past year. So, you know, so 406 00:25:52,400 --> 00:25:56,319 some real good I thought, some real good, thoughtful work 407 00:25:56,359 --> 00:26:00,200 in addition to the you know, hours an hour of 408 00:26:00,279 --> 00:26:01,279 jokes field. 409 00:26:01,359 --> 00:26:06,200 Speaker 1: Did you ever you know, a popular topic for us 410 00:26:06,240 --> 00:26:10,880 in the gambling world is civil asset forfeiture. Did you 411 00:26:10,920 --> 00:26:12,119 ever cover that? 412 00:26:12,359 --> 00:26:14,720 Speaker 2: We talked about it. We talked about it a little. 413 00:26:15,039 --> 00:26:17,640 I had. I wrote about it for my friend. My 414 00:26:17,720 --> 00:26:22,960 friend Luke O'Neill has a newsletter, and I wrote about 415 00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:27,079 a pretty horrible civil asset forfeiture case out of the 416 00:26:27,160 --> 00:26:30,880 Ninth Circuit. Oh wait, no, that was a qualified immunity 417 00:26:30,960 --> 00:26:33,160 kit because it was the cop I mean, it failed. 418 00:26:33,240 --> 00:26:36,839 It feels like civil forfeiture because it was literally cop 419 00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:42,160 stealing evidence from the result of a raid, Like they 420 00:26:42,240 --> 00:26:45,640 just stole the guy's coin collection. And the Ninth Circuit 421 00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:48,839 found that that was covered by qualified immunity because apparently, 422 00:26:49,440 --> 00:26:55,519 uh that they couldn't do that was not already established 423 00:26:55,559 --> 00:26:57,799 in the law. But I've I mean, I've read and 424 00:26:57,880 --> 00:27:00,599 talked about civil civil asset forfiture. I don't know that 425 00:27:00,640 --> 00:27:03,640 I've ever actually done a podcast on it. But yeah, 426 00:27:03,680 --> 00:27:06,160 you're people who drive around with a lot of cash, 427 00:27:06,240 --> 00:27:09,440 I guarantee. Yeah, that seems like something that would come 428 00:27:09,519 --> 00:27:10,039 up a lot. 429 00:27:10,200 --> 00:27:14,200 Speaker 1: The police in many places have just literally become highway robbers. 430 00:27:14,519 --> 00:27:17,559 Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, yeah, what is the place that I 431 00:27:17,640 --> 00:27:23,079 think of the most is there's a place in Texas 432 00:27:23,160 --> 00:27:25,759 that has become famous for that in a real like 433 00:27:26,160 --> 00:27:30,000 real Rosco peak coal Traine shit where they just sort 434 00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:33,480 of pull you over and pretext to search your car 435 00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:36,519 and if you've got too much cash on hand, they 436 00:27:36,599 --> 00:27:38,480 just sees it and make you prove that it's not 437 00:27:38,640 --> 00:27:40,319 drug money exactly. 438 00:27:40,480 --> 00:27:43,839 Speaker 1: Yeah. And we literally had a guy on our show 439 00:27:44,599 --> 00:27:49,000 who was pulled over and the reason was because he 440 00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:53,440 was driving the speed limit. Yeah, and that was suspicious 441 00:27:53,480 --> 00:27:58,079 to nobody drives exactly the speed limit, right exactly. That 442 00:27:58,200 --> 00:27:59,599 was their Uh. 443 00:28:00,359 --> 00:28:04,240 Speaker 2: That's you know, you read enough cases and you see 444 00:28:04,279 --> 00:28:09,039 that probable cause is itself a dog's breakfast of cop nons. 445 00:28:09,480 --> 00:28:13,200 You know, like if you read cases about like profiling 446 00:28:13,279 --> 00:28:18,680 drug couriers, like the excuses that law enforcement agencies give. 447 00:28:18,759 --> 00:28:20,920 It's like, well, they're walking too fast, or they're walking 448 00:28:20,960 --> 00:28:23,680 too slow, or they're walking too normal, or they look 449 00:28:23,759 --> 00:28:27,119 too nervous, or they look too calm, like everything that 450 00:28:27,200 --> 00:28:30,920 you could do. And you what you eventually figure out 451 00:28:31,519 --> 00:28:36,400 is either they know you are doing it through whatever means, 452 00:28:36,440 --> 00:28:39,039 but they have to figure out a pretext to stop 453 00:28:39,119 --> 00:28:42,640 you as an individual, or you are just the guy 454 00:28:42,680 --> 00:28:46,480 whose number came up that day, and then they retcon 455 00:28:46,599 --> 00:28:49,079 of reason to have stopped you in the first place 456 00:28:49,240 --> 00:28:53,519 if they hit the jackpot and you have something incriminating 457 00:28:53,759 --> 00:28:58,119 or a plausibly incriminating on you. So if you're wondering 458 00:28:58,799 --> 00:29:05,519 why all of my podcasts or left, that feeds into 459 00:29:05,559 --> 00:29:06,079 it a lot. 460 00:29:06,920 --> 00:29:09,440 Speaker 1: Have you Have you ever listened to The Moth? 461 00:29:10,319 --> 00:29:11,480 Speaker 2: Sure? Sure? 462 00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:15,799 Speaker 1: Okay, because you know what this reminds me of. I'm 463 00:29:15,839 --> 00:29:20,160 a big fan of The Moth, and I have participated 464 00:29:20,200 --> 00:29:25,839 in many, many story slams. But I remember a particular 465 00:29:25,920 --> 00:29:29,480 story about a lawyer in Michigan who had a case 466 00:29:29,599 --> 00:29:34,000 that went all the way to the Supreme Court, basically 467 00:29:34,480 --> 00:29:39,680 defending a guy who, uh, he was somewhere in public 468 00:29:39,799 --> 00:29:42,319 I forget where, at a picnic or something where there 469 00:29:42,319 --> 00:29:45,720 were a lot of people around, families with children, and 470 00:29:45,920 --> 00:29:49,279 something happened and the guy just lost his ship and 471 00:29:49,359 --> 00:29:52,319 started yelling fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck, and the 472 00:29:52,359 --> 00:29:59,559 police arrested him for some weird, some weird archaic law 473 00:29:59,680 --> 00:30:04,039 about you know, using foul language. Yeah, the ladies or 474 00:30:04,079 --> 00:30:09,200 something like them. Anyway, it was it was a great story. 475 00:30:09,240 --> 00:30:12,920 What was the weirdest case you ever came across. 476 00:30:13,759 --> 00:30:17,960 Speaker 2: Well along these lines. The one that I'm thinking of was, 477 00:30:18,000 --> 00:30:21,079 I believe there are two I'm going to give you. 478 00:30:21,480 --> 00:30:25,720 One is like this and one is a very bad maraice. 479 00:30:25,920 --> 00:30:28,720 Because I'm talking to a non legal audience, so you 480 00:30:28,799 --> 00:30:31,160 may not have heard the second one. The first one 481 00:30:31,200 --> 00:30:39,039 was in North Carolina case where a guy is driving 482 00:30:39,519 --> 00:30:43,279 down the road and he sees a cop giving someone 483 00:30:43,319 --> 00:30:46,759 a ticket, and he and I'm not going to remember 484 00:30:46,799 --> 00:30:50,440 this perfectly, but this is roughly what it was. He 485 00:30:50,519 --> 00:30:54,279 gives from the passenger seat. He gives the cop the fingers. 486 00:30:54,319 --> 00:30:57,680 He drives, as you know, his wife drives by, and 487 00:30:57,720 --> 00:31:01,599 the cop, all pissed off, gets in his car and 488 00:31:01,680 --> 00:31:06,799 chases him down. And first and like, the reason they 489 00:31:06,799 --> 00:31:10,559 were kept arresting it arrested him kept changing because at 490 00:31:10,599 --> 00:31:13,960 a certain point he's now suing to he's like either 491 00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:17,039 trying to exclude certain evidence, or he's trying to get 492 00:31:17,079 --> 00:31:20,160 the case dismissed, or he's bringing a civil suit. Like 493 00:31:20,200 --> 00:31:24,160 it's all very fuzzy now. But the cop first like 494 00:31:24,759 --> 00:31:27,559 tries to pull them over for some kind of endangerment, 495 00:31:28,039 --> 00:31:30,400 and then he try pulls him over for some kind 496 00:31:30,440 --> 00:31:34,680 of public you know, obscenity and like it's all nonsense, 497 00:31:34,759 --> 00:31:41,359 And it took multiple rounds of appellate litigation before the 498 00:31:41,400 --> 00:31:45,640 North Carolina Court finally, like Supreme Court through it, but 499 00:31:45,720 --> 00:31:49,240 the lower courts had let it stand on the complete 500 00:31:49,279 --> 00:31:54,039 pretext of what the police had. The second one is 501 00:31:54,279 --> 00:32:00,559 infamous in cop circle, I'm sorry. In law circle, guy 502 00:32:00,640 --> 00:32:07,000 in Louisiana gets arrested. And you know the basics of Miranda, right, 503 00:32:07,039 --> 00:32:09,839 if you ask for a lawyer, they have to stop 504 00:32:09,960 --> 00:32:13,720 questioning you. Their exceptions in the Supreme Court keeps creating 505 00:32:13,759 --> 00:32:17,720 more exceptions, but the basics are, if you ask for 506 00:32:17,759 --> 00:32:21,480 a lawyer, they have to stop questioning you until you 507 00:32:21,599 --> 00:32:26,599 have been provided count. And this guy is being questioned 508 00:32:27,440 --> 00:32:31,920 and he goes, I need a lawyer dog and the 509 00:32:31,960 --> 00:32:35,839 cops say, well, you know maybe, and then they go 510 00:32:35,920 --> 00:32:40,119 back to questioning it. And in writing the opinion, and 511 00:32:40,160 --> 00:32:43,559 this was like a secondary opinion, It wasn't the main opinion, 512 00:32:43,799 --> 00:32:46,319 but it was important enough that this one judge put 513 00:32:46,359 --> 00:32:50,759 it in writing, is that he said it was ambiguous 514 00:32:51,359 --> 00:32:55,480 as to whether he was asking for a lawyer Comma 515 00:32:55,920 --> 00:33:02,440 dog referring to the officer or a canine attorney. And 516 00:33:03,160 --> 00:33:06,839 if you are going that far. Judge actually put that 517 00:33:06,960 --> 00:33:12,119 in writing. This is an appellate judge in Louisiana put 518 00:33:12,119 --> 00:33:16,440 it in writing to defend the post the actions of 519 00:33:16,480 --> 00:33:21,359 the police by saying it wasn't a sufficiently clear statement 520 00:33:21,400 --> 00:33:25,119 of interest in it in an attorney because it had 521 00:33:25,160 --> 00:33:30,200 a linguistic ambiguity, And it's a linguistic ambiguity that only 522 00:33:30,599 --> 00:33:37,680 exists if you are trying to excuse police misconda. Wow, yeah, yeah, 523 00:33:37,720 --> 00:33:39,960 I mean that's literally I shot the clerk from my 524 00:33:40,039 --> 00:33:44,640 cousin Vinnie, where I swhear a statement phrased as a question. 525 00:33:45,160 --> 00:33:48,599 If you just change the punctuation because the question mark 526 00:33:48,640 --> 00:33:53,440 comes in tone, not in grammar, then it becomes a confession. Right, 527 00:33:53,880 --> 00:33:57,359 I shot the clerk. I shot the clerk right now, 528 00:33:57,400 --> 00:33:59,920 it's now it's a quo. Now you change a question 529 00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:02,880 mark to a period in the transcript and it's a confession. 530 00:34:03,599 --> 00:34:04,160 Speaker 1: Right Yeah. 531 00:34:04,160 --> 00:34:08,639 Speaker 2: But nonsense. And that's what lawyer dog is. So that 532 00:34:08,679 --> 00:34:10,119 one is pretty infant. 533 00:34:10,559 --> 00:34:17,960 Speaker 1: So what about what is the most realistic lawyer show 534 00:34:19,119 --> 00:34:23,039 in television? And what is the most ridiculous lawyer show? 535 00:34:23,159 --> 00:34:26,559 I mean, willing to go back, however far back you want. 536 00:34:26,440 --> 00:34:33,159 Speaker 2: To go, I watched twenty minutes of suits and was like, 537 00:34:33,239 --> 00:34:36,400 I can ever watch this? Yeah, and so I don't 538 00:34:36,400 --> 00:34:40,599 know anything ridiculous. I don't know if that gets less ridiculous, 539 00:34:40,639 --> 00:34:43,320 but I just know that the first thing that I 540 00:34:43,480 --> 00:34:48,400 learned was that one guy was faking his law degree, 541 00:34:48,639 --> 00:34:52,119 and then there was some interaction that I thought was ridiculous, 542 00:34:52,119 --> 00:34:54,920 and then there was that one actor who had like 543 00:34:54,960 --> 00:34:57,920 the something about Mary Choppers, and I'm like, I'm out, 544 00:35:00,039 --> 00:35:04,079 and I'm thinking, I'm trying to think of they don't 545 00:35:04,119 --> 00:35:08,880 really have realistic law shows because any kind of realistic 546 00:35:08,960 --> 00:35:12,119 law show is too boring to put on television. You know, 547 00:35:12,360 --> 00:35:17,960 it's all backroom stuff and there's nothing that approaches the complete, 548 00:35:18,760 --> 00:35:23,679 you know, urge in miasma of what actual courtroom testimony 549 00:35:23,800 --> 00:35:27,679 looks like. You know, you're going through paper documents. There's 550 00:35:27,679 --> 00:35:33,039 no dramatic confrontations, none of it's real. I guess Absence 551 00:35:33,079 --> 00:35:38,559 of Malice as a movie was an interesting It hasn't 552 00:35:38,559 --> 00:35:40,440 been a long time since I've seen it. But that's 553 00:35:40,480 --> 00:35:45,840 like Paul Newman and Sally Field. I thinkspoon very young 554 00:35:45,840 --> 00:35:49,519 and then no, no, no, no, no. Reese Witherspoon's parents probably 555 00:35:49,519 --> 00:35:54,159 hadn't met yet. This is absence of malice is like 556 00:35:54,360 --> 00:35:59,119 a prime Paul Newman and prime Sally Field. This is 557 00:35:59,159 --> 00:36:04,639 like a movie from like seventies where where Paul Newman 558 00:36:04,760 --> 00:36:08,440 is some kind of uh It's like a combination courtroom 559 00:36:08,519 --> 00:36:15,400 drama and newspaper like journalism criticism, where he is this 560 00:36:15,480 --> 00:36:19,800 guy who I guess is being falsely charged in the press, 561 00:36:20,400 --> 00:36:24,360 but he's also being like all of this reporting is 562 00:36:24,400 --> 00:36:28,000 being done, but because he's a public figure, you know, 563 00:36:28,199 --> 00:36:31,599 under the New York Times, he Sullivan standard. An absence 564 00:36:31,639 --> 00:36:35,360 of malice means that a falsehood printed about a person 565 00:36:36,199 --> 00:36:40,280 doesn't give grounds for a libel suit, you know, And 566 00:36:40,320 --> 00:36:43,199 I remember that. It's been a while, but I remember 567 00:36:43,280 --> 00:36:47,719 that being a little closer, you know, like Law and 568 00:36:47,840 --> 00:36:51,280 Order is. You know, I do believe that the DA 569 00:36:51,719 --> 00:36:56,559 commits constitutional violations every week. But the ones you know 570 00:36:56,599 --> 00:36:59,480 that go on in that show sometimes they you know, 571 00:36:59,559 --> 00:37:03,599 they make the judges bend to the will of the plot, 572 00:37:04,199 --> 00:37:07,679 you know, like they don't really they don't really craft 573 00:37:07,840 --> 00:37:13,239 the arguments in applausible way in either direction both times. 574 00:37:13,519 --> 00:37:20,199 And so even though I'm addicted to it, yeah, I 575 00:37:20,239 --> 00:37:22,639 have a real love hate relationship with Law and Order, 576 00:37:22,800 --> 00:37:24,519 it's like one of those shows where it's like the 577 00:37:25,639 --> 00:37:29,599 it's like the Sopranos, where I don't really like the 578 00:37:29,639 --> 00:37:34,559 District Attorney's office and I don't you shouldn't like Tony Soprano. 579 00:37:34,679 --> 00:37:38,199 But the way they make Tony Soprano likable is his 580 00:37:38,760 --> 00:37:43,280 agonists are always worse people than he is, right, Like, 581 00:37:43,639 --> 00:37:46,199 it's a lot easier to root for Tony Soprano when 582 00:37:46,199 --> 00:37:51,159 the alternative is Ralph sifarero right, so they kind of 583 00:37:51,400 --> 00:37:54,519 like they you end up being taken down this garden 584 00:37:54,599 --> 00:38:00,480 path of rooting for this obvious monster because of the 585 00:38:00,519 --> 00:38:02,559 structure of the show in the career. 586 00:38:02,639 --> 00:38:05,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, did you ever watch Boston Legal? 587 00:38:06,360 --> 00:38:08,679 Speaker 2: A little bit but a long time ago? Like I 588 00:38:08,719 --> 00:38:11,599 feel like I saw no, you know what, I never 589 00:38:11,679 --> 00:38:14,440 saw Boston Legal. I was confusing it mad with Alan McBeal. 590 00:38:14,960 --> 00:38:17,679 I never I know, No, I didn't watch Boston Legal 591 00:38:18,000 --> 00:38:20,199 because there's any one of those totally ridiculous. 592 00:38:20,280 --> 00:38:22,480 Speaker 1: But but it was a very funny show. 593 00:38:22,519 --> 00:38:24,360 Speaker 2: And yeah, sure, I think there's a lot of that. 594 00:38:24,679 --> 00:38:28,239 But in the same it's like my brother in law 595 00:38:28,519 --> 00:38:31,639 is funeral director and he couldn't watch Six Feet Under, 596 00:38:32,000 --> 00:38:36,800 and I bet It's very hard for doctors to watch 597 00:38:36,920 --> 00:38:40,800 hospital shows, you know, because all you do. 598 00:38:40,960 --> 00:38:46,239 Speaker 1: Is any movie that has gambling in it, you know, right, Yeah, 599 00:38:46,320 --> 00:38:47,639 they just never get it right. 600 00:38:48,280 --> 00:38:48,519 Speaker 2: Yeah. 601 00:38:48,599 --> 00:38:50,840 Speaker 1: I mean like I supposed to be a news show 602 00:38:50,960 --> 00:38:53,440 like sixty minutes. They just never get it. 603 00:38:53,440 --> 00:38:57,039 Speaker 2: Right, right, right, I mean think about the end of 604 00:38:57,039 --> 00:39:01,119 the Cincinnati Kid, right, oh yeah, going to an inside 605 00:39:01,159 --> 00:39:05,639 straight flush, Like literally the logic of his gambling was 606 00:39:06,039 --> 00:39:11,880 I have enough money to just keep doubling down for infinity. 607 00:39:13,599 --> 00:39:16,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, so you know. 608 00:39:18,360 --> 00:39:24,039 Speaker 2: Them, Yeah, it's anything like It's like it's called Gellman amnesia, 609 00:39:24,239 --> 00:39:28,199 which is a kind of a it works mostly as 610 00:39:28,280 --> 00:39:31,239 conservative media criticism, but I give them credit for it 611 00:39:31,239 --> 00:39:35,840 because I've seen it enough. But Gellman amnesia is if 612 00:39:35,880 --> 00:39:38,880 you see the news media writing about anything that you 613 00:39:39,039 --> 00:39:43,400 know about, you know that they have screwed it up, right, 614 00:39:43,719 --> 00:39:45,679 you know it in nuance and you're like, I can't 615 00:39:45,679 --> 00:39:48,159 believe that they paid someone to write this. And then 616 00:39:48,159 --> 00:39:49,800 you turn the page and you read the news and 617 00:39:49,840 --> 00:39:53,159 you go, oh my god, that's horrible, right, because you've 618 00:39:53,159 --> 00:39:56,960 already forgotten how they're not experts in that either, and 619 00:39:57,039 --> 00:40:00,000 so you've they're probably somewhat at least a little world 620 00:40:00,719 --> 00:40:04,880 about that too, you know, And so that's usually used 621 00:40:04,920 --> 00:40:09,760 to bash the liberal media, but I also think it's 622 00:40:09,880 --> 00:40:15,679 generally of anyone kind of getting over their skis about topics. 623 00:40:15,920 --> 00:40:20,320 Speaker 1: Enough about Well, this has been great. I have really 624 00:40:20,559 --> 00:40:21,079 enjoyed it. 625 00:40:22,199 --> 00:40:23,559 Speaker 2: Oh wait, I wanted. 626 00:40:23,320 --> 00:40:26,840 Speaker 1: To ask you. You said you had some travel stories. 627 00:40:27,000 --> 00:40:29,840 Speaker 2: Oh, I guess, as life is a gamble. There were 628 00:40:30,719 --> 00:40:33,199 two things that I did when I was a kid, 629 00:40:33,239 --> 00:40:35,039 which I think is the kind of thing you can 630 00:40:35,159 --> 00:40:39,360 only do when you're in your twenties. The first was 631 00:40:39,559 --> 00:40:43,400 I was like right out of college, and I was, 632 00:40:43,800 --> 00:40:47,199 you know, I was. I wasn't smart enough to really 633 00:40:47,239 --> 00:40:51,960 know how to backpack around Europe, but I could take 634 00:40:52,119 --> 00:40:55,239 luggage to London. And so I was staying in a 635 00:40:55,280 --> 00:40:59,199 hostel in London, and I decided I wanted to get 636 00:40:59,199 --> 00:41:02,559 out of the city, but I wanted to travel light. 637 00:41:03,199 --> 00:41:04,960 When I got out of the city, and I was 638 00:41:04,960 --> 00:41:09,280 staying in a hostel that had like a three day limit, 639 00:41:09,360 --> 00:41:11,400 but I was like, okay, I'm going to be here 640 00:41:11,440 --> 00:41:14,400 for three days. I'm going to like go, you know 641 00:41:14,559 --> 00:41:17,079 somewhere else in England. I don't even remember where I went. 642 00:41:17,119 --> 00:41:19,280 I think maybe I went to Cambridge. I don't know 643 00:41:19,400 --> 00:41:22,480 I was I'm too old to remember exactly what a 644 00:41:22,519 --> 00:41:27,920 trip when I was nineteen was. But so I decided, 645 00:41:28,360 --> 00:41:33,320 against every posted thing, to just take my luggage and 646 00:41:33,519 --> 00:41:36,599 stick it in the back of their storage room which 647 00:41:36,679 --> 00:41:42,320 had like everything I was traveling with, and just roll 648 00:41:42,400 --> 00:41:45,239 the dice on being able to get as and it's 649 00:41:45,280 --> 00:41:47,440 always full, Like the time of the year that I 650 00:41:47,559 --> 00:41:50,880 was there, it's like always full. And I was like, 651 00:41:51,360 --> 00:41:54,280 I am going to try I'm going to just leave 652 00:41:54,320 --> 00:41:56,400 it there and hope that when I come back to 653 00:41:56,519 --> 00:42:00,280 London in four days that I can stay here for 654 00:42:00,320 --> 00:42:05,320 two days with my bags. And it was there, and 655 00:42:05,440 --> 00:42:09,239 so I went and I just went to the airport 656 00:42:09,320 --> 00:42:14,239 after those last two days, after just letting them watch 657 00:42:14,320 --> 00:42:19,320 my bags, you know, for for a few days. And 658 00:42:19,719 --> 00:42:24,480 the second one was after law school. I really wanted 659 00:42:24,519 --> 00:42:28,880 to take a trip and I had one thing which 660 00:42:28,960 --> 00:42:30,960 was kind of planned, and then the person I was 661 00:42:31,039 --> 00:42:33,519 doing it with couldn't do it, and so it fell through. 662 00:42:34,039 --> 00:42:36,840 And now I'm like a month from starting my job 663 00:42:37,800 --> 00:42:40,559 out of law school and I haven't traveled anywhere, and 664 00:42:40,599 --> 00:42:43,760 I'm like, well, and so I decided to fly jump 665 00:42:43,800 --> 00:42:48,360 seat on whatever was available, and so this, you know, 666 00:42:48,440 --> 00:42:52,920 this is where you are like the meat sack accompanying 667 00:42:53,679 --> 00:42:58,320 some like thing that has to be shipped internationally. But 668 00:42:58,360 --> 00:43:02,599 they need someone to a courier. They need someone to 669 00:43:02,639 --> 00:43:05,480 act as Yeah, jump seat is when you're like an 670 00:43:05,599 --> 00:43:10,000 extra staff person, like just hopping on your own airline. Yeah, 671 00:43:10,000 --> 00:43:13,679 so courier flight. And so they're like, well, we have 672 00:43:13,719 --> 00:43:16,119 a trip to Hong Kong for two weeks. And I 673 00:43:16,159 --> 00:43:21,360 was like, okay, I'll do that, I guess, And I 674 00:43:21,440 --> 00:43:23,760 flew to Hong Kong for two weeks. And I thought 675 00:43:23,840 --> 00:43:29,039 that because it was only recently an English colony that 676 00:43:29,880 --> 00:43:39,079 everyone would speak and most of non financial center Hong 677 00:43:39,159 --> 00:43:43,159 Kong was so happy to be rid of the English 678 00:43:43,920 --> 00:43:48,320 that it was like a real drag of two weeks, 679 00:43:48,800 --> 00:43:51,280 because two weeks is a long time to be in 680 00:43:51,360 --> 00:43:55,960 Hong Kong unless you're really wealthy and don't speak any Chinese. 681 00:43:57,880 --> 00:44:00,400 So that was like, that was real mixed. The only 682 00:44:00,480 --> 00:44:03,559 thing I really remember enjoying in Hong Kong, other than 683 00:44:03,559 --> 00:44:06,840 the food, which you know, really cheap food, very good. 684 00:44:07,039 --> 00:44:11,559 Wherever I went, it was like very cool unless they 685 00:44:11,800 --> 00:44:13,920 just gave you the white person's menu. Then it was 686 00:44:14,000 --> 00:44:18,039 just like ordering kind of place on flat bushet Avenue. 687 00:44:18,519 --> 00:44:24,239 But but going to the racetrack was always was like 688 00:44:24,480 --> 00:44:29,400 that's the universal language. It's just going and betting small 689 00:44:29,440 --> 00:44:33,840 amounts of money, you know, off of a half assed 690 00:44:33,920 --> 00:44:37,599 review of a racing form. And so wherever you are 691 00:44:37,639 --> 00:44:39,519 in the world, that was always a blast. 692 00:44:40,159 --> 00:44:42,880 Speaker 1: Well. And also the race tracks in Hong Kong there 693 00:44:42,880 --> 00:44:48,079 were only two, and racing is really really popular there 694 00:44:48,239 --> 00:44:52,079 and it's exciting at the racetrack there as opposed to it. 695 00:44:53,840 --> 00:44:57,519 Speaker 2: Yeah, oh yeah, and Chatin was really cool, Like Chatin 696 00:44:57,639 --> 00:44:59,559 is the one that's like outside of the city, like 697 00:44:59,599 --> 00:45:02,719 in the a little north in the suburbs or something, 698 00:45:02,880 --> 00:45:09,440 and like it's beautiful and you know the gallery is, 699 00:45:10,199 --> 00:45:12,760 you know, the place to go and watch for free, 700 00:45:13,559 --> 00:45:17,239 was packed like a subway platform, but you could get 701 00:45:17,280 --> 00:45:20,639 like a seat with an like elevated and looking at 702 00:45:20,679 --> 00:45:23,840 it was like three dollars. Yeah, you know, like it 703 00:45:23,880 --> 00:45:26,280 was really like not you know, you're not sitting in 704 00:45:26,360 --> 00:45:29,760 like the polo club or anything, but you are sitting 705 00:45:29,920 --> 00:45:35,360 in like a really comfortable seat, you know, with your 706 00:45:35,400 --> 00:45:41,159 own like you know, nice bedding window. Back then, it 707 00:45:41,199 --> 00:45:44,199 costs like nothing to be like a little comfortable, and 708 00:45:44,239 --> 00:45:47,440 so it was really I love that play. Yeah. 709 00:45:47,639 --> 00:45:50,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, Hong Kong I really like if I was going 710 00:45:50,559 --> 00:45:53,400 to live in Asia, I think Hong Kong would be it. 711 00:45:53,519 --> 00:45:57,400 And as far as the food, I've had better Thai 712 00:45:57,559 --> 00:46:02,360 food in Hong Kong than I have in Thailand. So yeah, 713 00:46:02,400 --> 00:46:04,480 the food there is is just tremendous. 714 00:46:04,519 --> 00:46:07,920 Speaker 2: So yeah, yeah, I developed a minor kanji addiction. 715 00:46:08,760 --> 00:46:14,400 Speaker 1: Uh my uh. I always ask my guests their favorite 716 00:46:14,440 --> 00:46:17,239 restaurant Las Vegas that is not in a casino. 717 00:46:18,559 --> 00:46:21,039 Speaker 2: I can't say that I have a ton of experience, 718 00:46:21,400 --> 00:46:26,480 but the time I've only been to I've only been 719 00:46:26,519 --> 00:46:29,000 to Las Vegas once, and when I was there, I 720 00:46:29,119 --> 00:46:32,920 went with a friend who took me to a Tokyo 721 00:46:33,119 --> 00:46:39,440 style Italian place called Nakamura Yah, which was interesting and fun, 722 00:46:40,119 --> 00:46:43,880 and so that would that that is the only actual 723 00:46:43,960 --> 00:46:45,360 recommendation I could give. 724 00:46:45,920 --> 00:46:51,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, I have been combination of Japanese and Italian food. 725 00:46:51,840 --> 00:46:55,599 Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, my my friend, I my friend Aaron Kessler, 726 00:46:55,639 --> 00:46:58,639 who some of your listeners may know because he's gaming 727 00:46:58,679 --> 00:47:02,920 industry guy. He said, I asked him to remind me 728 00:47:03,000 --> 00:47:06,719 the name of the Italian Japanese fusion play, and he 729 00:47:07,119 --> 00:47:11,920 chided me in response that it is not fusion, but 730 00:47:12,119 --> 00:47:15,519 rather Tokyo style Italian, So I don't want to get 731 00:47:15,519 --> 00:47:20,480 on his bad side or theirs or theirs right or there. 732 00:47:22,480 --> 00:47:26,719 Speaker 1: Well, Charles, this is this has been great. I've enjoyed 733 00:47:26,719 --> 00:47:29,400 it immensely and I just want to thank you for 734 00:47:29,440 --> 00:47:30,239 coming on the show. 735 00:47:30,639 --> 00:47:32,760 Speaker 2: Thank you so much, and to everyone. If you want 736 00:47:32,760 --> 00:47:36,639 to check out the podcast, it's at No homework Dot website. 737 00:47:37,280 --> 00:47:42,880 And if you want to help me defeat my horrible foe, Josh, 738 00:47:43,400 --> 00:47:46,880 just reach out to me. Just google my n It's 739 00:47:46,920 --> 00:47:47,320 super great. 740 00:47:47,400 --> 00:47:49,960 Speaker 1: You know, I have to say googling your name, it's 741 00:47:50,199 --> 00:47:52,679 it's not as easy to find you as you would think. 742 00:47:52,719 --> 00:47:56,719 First of all, I expected, you know, every comedian has 743 00:47:56,920 --> 00:48:02,079 like YouTube videos and Instagram reels, and I don't know 744 00:48:02,320 --> 00:48:03,519 either of those. For you. 745 00:48:04,360 --> 00:48:06,840 Speaker 2: I think I hit all of my stand up because 746 00:48:06,840 --> 00:48:11,119 the only stuff that I had was over twenty years old. 747 00:48:11,159 --> 00:48:13,760 And I don't need to answer for anything that I 748 00:48:13,800 --> 00:48:20,119 said as a child. The Statute of Limitations has expired 749 00:48:20,159 --> 00:48:26,840 on my opinions from the early two thousands and and 750 00:48:28,000 --> 00:48:29,880 I get, but you know you spell it with one 751 00:48:30,079 --> 00:48:32,440 R and it directs youat of my social media. 752 00:48:32,599 --> 00:48:38,480 Speaker 1: So yeah, okay, you're you're no longer on Twitter, right. 753 00:48:38,679 --> 00:48:41,719 Speaker 2: No, but I am a Blue Sky I am that 754 00:48:41,840 --> 00:48:46,400 is my new uh that is my new retirement home. 755 00:48:47,320 --> 00:48:52,119 Speaker 1: Yeah all right, okay, well thanks again and just want 756 00:48:52,159 --> 00:48:56,239 to say the listeners you can, I welcome your feedback. 757 00:48:56,800 --> 00:48:59,960 You can always reach me at Life is a Game, 758 00:49:00,039 --> 00:49:04,320 humblepodat gmail dot com, or you can still find me 759 00:49:04,400 --> 00:49:08,480 on Twitter at our WM twenty one. Have a good one, 760 00:49:08,519 --> 00:49:09,239 everybody good. 761 00:49:09,239 --> 00:49:16,280 Speaker 2: A free audio post production biophonic dot com