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Speaker 1: People keep telling me that I need to have faith

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in something, that I need to believe in something greater

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than myself. So I did what any sensible modern person

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would do. I got a pet rock. Yes, this humble,

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little chunk of sediment has all the perks of a

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God without the need for tithes, offering genocide, or endless

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desire to have his ego stroked. Another astounding fact about

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pet rocks, Well, they answer prayer exactly the same rate

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as God. They fulfill exactly as many Messianic prophecies as Jesus,

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but they've married one less child than Muhammad. Now I

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understand there are some theists here that are offended that

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I'm comparing Jesus or Mohammad to a rock. But the

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reality is my rock actually exists and I can prove it. However,

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nobody here can prove that your God exists. Nevertheless, we

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welcome you to try. The lines are open and the

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show starts now. Well, friends, today is October twelfth, twenty

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twenty five. I'm your host, Justin. You might know me

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as decon Instruction Zone, and I'm joined right now by

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my good friend and co host Jim Borrows. Jim, my

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friend how are you.

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Speaker 2: Oh, I'm doing pretty good. How about yourself?

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Speaker 1: No, I don't know if I could be better.

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Speaker 2: That's always good. We had a little bit of a scare.

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We had some rain earlier today and that seemed to

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take out my internet and my power. So all of

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you who are praying for me not to show up,

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you failed, although you might almost have succeeded.

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Speaker 1: If only their God could answer prayer been successful.

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Speaker 2: It would have been a great time. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So I am shocked by the amount of times the

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Bible itself entices you to pray, suggesting that God will

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answer your prayers, or says things like in Matthew, you

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just says don't even worry about your clothes, what you'll wear,

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or what you eat, because God will give it to you.

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But the reality is there are three million children starving

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to death every year, and some of them I have

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no clothes, much less any food to eat. Like, where

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these are Christian people? Where's how come he can't follow

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through on the promise?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, exactly, And you know he'd be free like

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the sparrows and the birds. Well, even at that time

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where he was living, that wasn't really possible because you know,

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it's a little bit of a desert. Food's a little

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bit scarce. You got to bring it in, you gotta

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grow it, you gotta do all this this stuff to live.

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And he says, nope, no, just live like the sparrows.

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Wait a minute, So I tried to do that.

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Speaker 1: It didn't work out too well. I don't know, let

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me know. If your results differ, my results may not

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be your results.

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Speaker 2: There was a Greek philosopher who lived that way. It

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wasn't epicurious. It was shoot. I can't think of who

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was off the top of my head, but yeah, he

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was generally considered crazy, although some of his thoughts still

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survive today. But yeah, good luck with obeying all the

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commandments in the Bible. You'll either get arrested or get down.

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Speaker 1: That is that is actually a fact. That is certainly

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a fact.

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Speaker 2: So but yeah, that's that's the fun part.

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Speaker 1: Friends. The number to call in should be on the screen,

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or at least be on the screen shortly, So we

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welcome anyone who wants to talk with their God to

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call in. I will be here for proxibly the next

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two hours. We'd love to hear from you. If you've

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got a good argument or a good evidence that would

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lead us to believe that your God is real. Shoot,

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maybe you'll see us Sunday morning in church. Maybe with

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the right argument, we could be in your mosque next week.

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Who knows, We just need a good argument.

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Speaker 2: Well, Justin will be Richard, because we'll be on the

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atheist too, theist circuit making that kind of money instead of,

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you know, volunteering for what we do right here.

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Speaker 1: Do you imagine how much money we could make if

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we started doing evangelism. I was one of the cold

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Hart atheists and then I met.

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Speaker 2: We have we have proof. Unlike most of the uh

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you know evangelists that are out there now that claim

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to have been atheists a one time, we actually have proof.

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We have many, many hours of proof between the two

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of us. So we would make more money than them

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because we'd go, yeah, see look, this is this is

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this is me.

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Speaker 1: Well, we have one guest already cued up, Jim. We've

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got Robert from California, not to be confused with the

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famous Robert California, says has questions for atheists and wants

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to give his testimony through conversation. Well, what could go

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wrong with a good testimony? Robert, Welcome to the athets experience.

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Can you hear us?

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Speaker 3: I can hear you, guys just flying? How you guys

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doing this afternoon?

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Speaker 1: Thank complain?

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Speaker 2: How are you absolutely wonderful? So why do we care

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about your your testimony? Because anecdotal evidence is just that, anecdotal,

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and that's all your testimony is is anecdotal.

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Speaker 3: Okay, well I could gently throw it back at you,

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but we're not going to get into some I don't

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want to go on circles. I can say the same

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thing about your evolution. You guys can talk about all your.

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Speaker 2: Lot's a lot of bullshit, razor No. So in order

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to deny evolution, you have to deny genes exist, because

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the definition of evolution is a change in a little

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frequency over time in population. So are you when you

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deny evolution? Are you denying that genes exist?

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Speaker 3: I believe that Jesus created God. I believe that God questions.

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Speaker 2: That's not an answer the question. Can you answer the question?

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You answer the question your genes exist.

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Speaker 3: Genes do exist, and guess what God created the genes and.

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Speaker 2: Guess what that proves evolution? Thank you very much. You

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can't deny evolution, nor can you say it's just anecdotal.

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So what were you saying about your anecdotal stuff there?

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You were trying to preach, and we're just not going

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to allow it, so you don't have to.

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Speaker 3: I'd really like to give my testimony, so let's do that.

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But at first, before.

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Speaker 2: That, that's preaching. Why should I take your testimony as

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anything but anecdotal evidence?

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Speaker 3: You guys talk about anecdotal evidence. Your evolution, your evolution

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is theory is garbage.

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Speaker 2: You just admitted that evolution is true when you admitted

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genes exist. So stay off the evolution stuff because you've

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already been proven wrong, or you have to deny genes exists.

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Speaker 3: Not true?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it is, because how's what's the definition of evolution?

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Speaker 3: Genes? Genes? Absolutely? And who created the genes? So is God?

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And like, uh, talk about evolution?

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Speaker 2: Hold on, we're going to know. No, we're going to

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talk about evolution, and we're going to talk about Since

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you admit that genes exist, then you admit that evolution exists.

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Because the definition of evolution is to change in a

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lieal frequency over time and a population. So you have

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admitted if you admit genes exist, you admit that evolution exists,

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and that's not anecdotal evidence. That's backed up by the

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best science we have. And so again, why should I

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take your anecdote of your testimony as.

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Speaker 3: True because the Bible says it.

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Speaker 2: Bible says it's true. Your and your your your testimony

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says it's true. And around and around week ago, the

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wheels of the argument, you know, keep on turning. So

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what okay, try again?

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Speaker 3: Well here here's okay, here's the point. Here's the point

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on this.

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Speaker 1: So Robert, we we actually would be interested to talk

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about the Bible or your religion and whatnot. I think

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these would be fruitful conversations. I don't know if your

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story is all that helpful, because like we hear stories

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from Muslims and other religions too, right, sure, but if

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you've got an argument that is like a logical argument

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or an evidence based argument from the Bible, we definitely

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be down for that.

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Speaker 3: Okay, So here's here. Thank you, Thank you, justin I

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appreciate that. So here's where we start. I I've been

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a Christian for thirty five years. Okay. What happened to

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me is I was born totally blind, so I have

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no sight. I was I was born premature. I'm going

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to show you guys how God walked with me through

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my life. I was born primau. You're always born in

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seven months instead of nine months. I died twice. The

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doctors brought me back, by the grace of God. And

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you didn't die an incubator for two No, by the

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grace of God, I didn't die.

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Speaker 2: So yeah, no, no, So my girlfriend's an icy U nurse.

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And if the doctors can bring you back, you were

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not dead well.

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Speaker 3: And guess what what if? Who made the doctors bring

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me back? Jim, That's what I like to know.

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Speaker 2: Science just buy it own. God created that old Evolution

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has nothing to do with bringing people back. Good medical

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science and good medical technology does.

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Speaker 3: Okay, Well, I hope you don't cut me off again.

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I don't cut you off. I hope you'll respect what

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I have to say. So anyway, like I was saying, so,

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I was born provemachure. I was born in seven instead

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of nine. I died twice, I came back. I grew

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up in a New Age religion. My father happened to

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be a famous entertainer. I was born in Beverly Hills

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with a silver spoon in my mouth, YadA, YadA, YadA.

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So you know, he brought me into the New Age religion, okay,

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when I was six years old. So yeah, yeah, God,

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there's no such thing as God. God is within you. Heaven,

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there's no such thing as heaven or Hell. Heaven is

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on earth. Satan doesn't exist. So I grew up, you know,

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believing this garbage. So in when I turned back in

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nineteen eighty seven, I was nineteen, and my friends kept

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telling me you need to accept Jesus Christ into your life,

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and I kept denying, and I'm like, man, I'm a

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new ager, you know all and all that kind of bullshit.

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So what ends up happening is I start having these

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crazy dreams. When I was twenty back in nineteen eighty eight,

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I started dreaming that I.

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Speaker 1: Was son Robert. I don't want to interrupt you, because

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you sounds like a nice guy, but the problem is,

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like your personal experience is never going to be evidence

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for us, like this is just a story. That's why

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we're looking for something more concrete, like, oh, something verifiable

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in science or the Bible, or maybe even a logical argument,

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like maybe you gave us a logical argument and the

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old conclusion could be that God existed.

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Speaker 3: Okay, okay, so here's so here's my point. So here's

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my point. All right. So, like I told you about

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the light before, I was saying, this light would burn

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me on the back of the right hand. Okay. It

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kept burning me until nineteen ninety June nineteenth of nineteen

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ninety I got saved. So now here's where the Bible

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quote comes in. This light put me on the back

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of my right hand. What does it say in What

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does it say in Revelation thirteen versus no? What did

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it say?

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Speaker 1: Oh, don't don't do that. Oh Robert, you didn't call in.

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You didn't call in and get cooked on the mark

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of the beast in Revelation thirteen? Did you well?

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Speaker 3: Well, now, if the light burned me on the back

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of the right hand, what do you guys think that is?

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He was trying to let God was trying to let

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me know, Satan is burning me on the back of

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the right hand to get right now before you burned?

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Speaker 1: Certainly don't think so. The mark of the beast is

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obviously a reference to Neiro. It has nothing to do

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with anything burning your hand. Also, it's quite true that

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the mark of the beast is. It's not supposed to

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be something physical that's on your hand or your forehead.

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It's a reference to the practice that the introduced had

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where they would bind the Torah the law to their

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hand or to their forehead. It comes up again in

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the next section if you keep reading, in the chapter fourteen,

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it comes up again, and it's certainly clear that it's

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not referring to like a literal mark that people are

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going to get on their body. It's about pledging allegiance

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to the enemy, to Babylon, to Nero.

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Speaker 4: Okay, well, guys.

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Speaker 3: We can agree to disagree if you guys, look at

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what's going on the world is starting to go digital.

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The Bible said that the war was going to start.

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You know that we were going to live in a

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cash this society. And you guys.

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Speaker 1: Didn't say that. Didn't say we're going to live in

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a cashless society.

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Speaker 3: Hey, we're going to no whether.

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Speaker 1: The passage and quote me the passage where it says

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we're going to have a cashless society.

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Speaker 3: Oh, read it and re re justin read it.

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Speaker 1: And I have read revelation. I've read every last word

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of the Bible. That's why I'm asking you to quote

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it because I know it's not in there.

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Speaker 3: It's it's in Revelation. You'll find it right there.

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Speaker 1: Give me the verse. But where do you think it

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exists in Revelation because it's not in there.

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Speaker 3: Uh, you know, to be honest with you, I've read it.

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I don't know which chapter it is in, but I

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know if you read Revelation you will find it. Also. Uh, okay,

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when I got when I got saved a gentle light,

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uh sealed me in the forehead. Now, if you read Revelations.

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Speaker 2: Well, what's your evidence for this was the evidence for

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your hand burning?

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Speaker 3: Because well, yeah, when I when I when I got

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burned on the back of the right hand, I heard

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I heard a voice tell me you need to come

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into the family of God.

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Speaker 2: You need to do you have to take a picture

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of that. By by anyway, the burn on your hand,

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did you have it checked out by a medical doctor?

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Speaker 3: Jim? It was in a dream. It was spiritual.

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Speaker 2: This is why you know it wasn't your real real

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right hand. You were just in a dream. You're just

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in a dream. Is that correct? It wasn't your real

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right hand, It was just in a dream.

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Speaker 3: It was my right hand when it burns, then.

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Speaker 2: Did you take your right hand, you in your right hand,

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go to a doctor to find out what the burn was.

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Speaker 3: There's no need to do that, sir. The Bible already

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showed me what the burn was. And I'm going to

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say this to you.

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Speaker 2: See, so you don't know what caused the burn got it?

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Speaker 3: Oh, I know exactly what caused the burn. It was

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Satan and God told me you need to come.

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Speaker 2: You haven't proved that Satan or God exists yet, so

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why should I believe either?

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Speaker 3: Because the Bible says so. And if you guys, so.

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Speaker 2: God says the Bible is true. The Bible says the

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God is true. And the wheels on the argument turned

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round and round, the wheels on the argument turned around

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in round circular argument. Don't care, not a good argument,

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Give me something better.

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Speaker 3: Evolution. Evolution is nothing. You guys going to akam.

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Speaker 2: We're not talking about evolution. I've already destroyed you on

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that because you admit that genes exist and as long

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as jeans exist, evolution is true. You can't get around that.

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And I know that your high school education hasn't prepared you.

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If you remember your high school science education, biology education

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hasn't prepared you for that, that particular argument. But that

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is the fact. So get off of that. Give me

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evidence for God.

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Speaker 3: I already did, and I'll tell you what he didn't.

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Speaker 2: You've made claims about God. You haven't actually that God

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can do something. Before you can say that somebody did something,

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you first need to prove that that somebody exists. And

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you haven't done that.

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Speaker 3: I just did well because you guys a quote.

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Speaker 2: Okay, do say it again. Let's try it again, say

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it again.

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Speaker 3: Let's try this again. Absolutely, it got when I had

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when I when I first got saved, like I said,

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I was in a new age. Okay, God started showing

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me through my friends, through people. Then after that I started, how.

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Speaker 2: Do you know it was God? Do you how do

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you know it was God?

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Speaker 3: Because I heard you? Didn't hear me before? Did gym?

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I said, God? When when I got burned, God told

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me you need to accept How do you know it

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was God? The family of Jesus Christ.

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Speaker 2: How do you know it was God?

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Speaker 4: Well said it.

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Speaker 3: Verse Revelation thirteen, verse sixteen, Sir, open your eyes. That

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happened to be?

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Speaker 2: That doesn't That doesn't but that that does not refer

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to your burned hand, right, you now need to well,

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first you need to prove that refers to your burned

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hand and not to niro As Justin, who's actually a

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biblical scholar and you're not, has said that it's about narrow.

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But now you need to prove that that your mark

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on your hand is the mark of the beast. Can

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you do that?

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Speaker 3: Well, well, you know, yeah, it's it would be the future.

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If I would have not accepted Jesus Christ into my life,

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I would have received the mark of the beast, just

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like you guys are going to receive. You guys better

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be How do you?

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Speaker 2: How do you? But again, you haven't proven any of this.

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You're just making claims. So you need to prove that

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God and Satan exists and that this mark of the

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beast is a real thing. And you haven't done any

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of that. You're just making claims. No, you didn't. You

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made a claim, Jim, ok No, you made a claim

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about God existing in God doing something and God talking

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to you. Haven't proved that God talks to you because

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you haven't proven God exists. You know what we're going

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to do.

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Speaker 3: We're going to keep going in circles. If I could

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just comment, I'll let you.

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Speaker 1: Guys, I think we well, I think we I think

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we can have a better productive conversation on a slightly

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different topic, right, because like, personal experience is something you

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can never prove. It's only meaningful to you, it's not

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meaningful to us. But like I suspect that, like the

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reason why your personal experience is so meaningful is because

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you think the Bible is true already. So let me

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ask you a question, like what percentage of the Bible

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is true?

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Speaker 3: One?

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Speaker 1: I'm sure? Can you do? You have a Bible with

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you want to read it with me?

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Speaker 3: I don't, to be honest with you, my Bible. I

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have two different Bibles because Brail is Brail. The cells

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are huge.

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Speaker 1: So it's well, I can read it for you. I've

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got it, so John three point thirteen. Jesus says no

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one has ascended into heaven except the one who descended

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from heaven, the son of man. Is that a true state?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yes it is.

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Speaker 1: So no man ascended into heaven other than Jesus.

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Speaker 3: Paul ascended into heaven later after Jesus did, but.

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Speaker 1: No before Jesus heaven before.

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Speaker 3: You know what that for Jesus, have you, every everybody.

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Speaker 1: Kings Because in Second Kings it says that Elijah ascended

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into Heaven in a whirlwind. Second King's two eleven says,

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Elijah ascended into heaven.

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Speaker 3: Okay, but he didn't die. He didn't die. And not

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only that, I won't say anything about death for the

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Old Okay, for the Old Testament saints they went, they

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went into Abraham's bosom, which means that they went into

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a different apartment of hell.

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Speaker 1: Says heaven. Read that there's no Abraham's bosom in the

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Old Testament. So to be clear, Second King's two eleven

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says that he went in a whirlwind into heaven. The

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Hebrew word for heaven is hashamayim, and it just means

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the sky that's the abode of God in the Hebrew Bible.

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It's the same place, in fact, where Jesus says no

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man has gone in John three point thirteen. But it

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uses the Greek counterpart to that.

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Speaker 3: All right, Well, you know I say.

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Speaker 1: Somebody certainly did go to heaven.

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Speaker 3: Well, well, either he went to heaven or he went

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he went to the lord depths of heaven. You know,

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before Jesus died. After Jesus died on the cross, he

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took all the saints to Heaven, to where God is,

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And so that's what he died. So yes, it says.

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It says it in Luke. It says it in Luke

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and John. It says in Luke and John, he took

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all the saints to Heaven, all the left head.

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Speaker 1: All the dead are in the sky.

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Speaker 3: Now he took the keys from Satan and the debt

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he took. He took the keys from Satan and all

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the demons, and he took the people that were in

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Abraham's bosom and ascended into heaven. But here's my point.

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Speaker 1: I'm going to say this, because he gave the keys

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of the kingdom to the disciples already in Matthew sixteen.

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Speaker 3: He sure did, He sure did.

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Speaker 1: How many keys are there? He's just giving these keys

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out all willy nilly, isn't he?

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Speaker 5: Oh?

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Speaker 3: Oh man, he gave me keys. He gave me keys.

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And I can tell you all sorts of experiences that

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I've had, and we're not going to that because I did.

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Speaker 1: So, Like, why would we believe any of this nonsense

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about Jesus. Like Jesus has demonstrated over over again in

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the Bible that he doesn't actually know what's in his

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own religion. He doesn't even know how to read Hebrew.

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The guy goofs it he reads from the Greek text

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all the time and doesn't even understand what the Greek

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text is talking about. Well, he's a goof man to disagree.

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Speaker 3: We can agree.

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Speaker 1: Well I could demonstrate it for you. Well, i'll demonstrate it.

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I'll just let you. I'll let you see for yourself

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what I'm what I'm actually talking about. Matthew does it

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a lot too. But like I'm going to take you

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to a passage real quick in Isaiah. If you don't mind,

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have you read Isaiah sixty one before I have not?

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You'll recognize it when I read it to you. Verse

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one says, the spirit of the Lord God is upon

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me because the Lord has annoyed me. He has sent

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me to bring good news to the oppressed, to bind

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up the broken hearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives

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and release to the prisoners, to proclaim the year of

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the Lord's favor and the day of vengeance of our God,

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and to comfort all who mourn, and to provide for

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those who mourn in Zion, so and so forth. So

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on face value, this is a pretty open ended passage.

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It's hard to know what he's talking about until you

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get the verse four. Then it's actually abundantly clear. Says

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they will build up the ancient ruins, They shall raise

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up the former devastations. They shall repair the ruined cities,

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the devastations of many generations. Strangers will stand and feed

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your flocks, and foreigners will till your land and dress

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your vines. So the passage in Isaiah sixty one is

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a restoration prophecy after the Babylonian exile, which is what

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Deutero and Trudeau Isaiah are referring to. This is the

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latter part of Isaiah. So it's true to Isaiah, this

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is referring to the restoration of the people after they

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come back from the exile, Is it not? Oh sure, yes, sure,

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I mean this is pretty clear.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 1: It's just a message to the exiles, for those morning

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that are left in Zion, saying, hey, it's okay, you

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can be happy now you're coming back from exile. Your

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lands are going to be rebuilt, the cities that have

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been destroyed, It's okay. They're going to be rebuilt.

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Speaker 2: Now.

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Speaker 1: The problem with this is if you go to Luke

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four down to verse seventeen, it says the scroll of

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the prophet Isaiah was given to Jesus. He unrolled the

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scroll and found the place where it was written. The

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spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has

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annointed me to bring good news of the poor. He

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has sent me to proclaime release of the captives, recovery

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of sight to the blind that's not in the Hebrew text,

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and to set free those who are oppressed, to proclaim

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the year of the Lord's favor. He rolled up the scroll,

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gave it back to the intended, and sat down. The

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eyes of all the synagogue were fixed on him. Then

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he began to say to them, today, the scripture has

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been fulfilled in your hearing. But that scripture absolutely was

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not fulfilled in their hearing because Israel wasn't restored, their

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cities weren't rebuilt, and shortly after this they were devastated

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by the Romans.

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Speaker 3: Well, let me ask you a question. Justin where is

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Israel now? Israel is flourishing, Israel is doing fantastic.

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Speaker 1: And no, thanks to Jesus, it's enclosing.

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Speaker 2: Well Jenius. There's no king in Israel either, just to

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point that out. There's no king in Israel.

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Speaker 3: There's no king in Israel. But the Antichrist is coming soon, guys,

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And whether you got I'm sure, yeah you.

471
00:22:01,799 --> 00:22:04,160
Speaker 2: Christian has been saying that for the last two thousand years,

472
00:22:04,160 --> 00:22:06,319
and so far he hasn't shown up.

473
00:22:06,559 --> 00:22:06,720
Speaker 5: Well.

474
00:22:06,799 --> 00:22:09,759
Speaker 3: Like Peter said, beware of the scoffers because they will

475
00:22:09,799 --> 00:22:13,799
say our fathers haven't seen Jesus. We haven't seen Jesus,

476
00:22:14,160 --> 00:22:16,359
and Jesus is going to appear appear like a thief

477
00:22:16,440 --> 00:22:19,279
in the night. So I would simply so Peter said that.

478
00:22:19,680 --> 00:22:22,519
Speaker 2: Peter said that. Peter said that Peter see Jesus. So

479
00:22:22,519 --> 00:22:24,680
why would he say I haven't seen Jesus. That makes

480
00:22:24,680 --> 00:22:25,160
no sense.

481
00:22:25,359 --> 00:22:28,000
Speaker 3: He didn't say. He didn't say he hasn't seen Jesus.

482
00:22:28,160 --> 00:22:31,400
That's not what he said. He hasn't seen Jesus. Justin

483
00:22:31,519 --> 00:22:32,720
I'm gonna make I'm gonna make.

484
00:22:32,680 --> 00:22:35,759
Speaker 1: When did when did Jesus say he was coming back?

485
00:22:35,799 --> 00:22:38,119
Because he tells you on a couple occasions when he's

486
00:22:38,119 --> 00:22:38,599
coming back.

487
00:22:38,680 --> 00:22:42,279
Speaker 3: No no, no, no, no, no no no. Nobody knows the

488
00:22:42,440 --> 00:22:44,480
hour or the time when he's coming.

489
00:22:45,440 --> 00:22:47,400
Speaker 1: We didn't say the hour, but he gave you a

490
00:22:47,480 --> 00:22:50,200
cut off. Have you read Matthew sixteen.

491
00:22:50,319 --> 00:22:53,279
Speaker 3: Okay, and and and that's supposed to apply.

492
00:22:53,759 --> 00:22:55,640
Speaker 1: So yeah, yeah, it says the Son of Man is

493
00:22:55,640 --> 00:22:58,319
to come with his angels in the glory of his father.

494
00:22:58,680 --> 00:23:01,480
Then he will repay everybody for their deeds. Truly, I

495
00:23:01,519 --> 00:23:03,319
tell you, there are some standing here who will not

496
00:23:03,440 --> 00:23:05,559
taste death before they see the Son of Man coming

497
00:23:05,559 --> 00:23:07,920
in his kingdom. And all those people standing there with

498
00:23:08,000 --> 00:23:11,079
Jesus are dead. He did not, in fact, come on

499
00:23:11,160 --> 00:23:13,440
the clouds with all the angels to repay everybody for

500
00:23:13,480 --> 00:23:14,000
their deeds.

501
00:23:14,119 --> 00:23:18,319
Speaker 3: Ah. But that's where you're wrong. That's where you're wrong. Okay,

502
00:23:18,359 --> 00:23:21,119
maybe he didn't, maybe he didn't have the angels come

503
00:23:21,519 --> 00:23:24,519
with the amount of angels. But John saw him, and.

504
00:23:24,680 --> 00:23:25,359
Speaker 1: That's what he said.

505
00:23:25,559 --> 00:23:29,720
Speaker 3: The other disciple was all the other disciples were martyred. Okay.

506
00:23:30,079 --> 00:23:34,440
So so so John got a chance, right because in the.

507
00:23:34,400 --> 00:23:41,480
Speaker 1: Bible over right back the disciple, let's not get distracted

508
00:23:41,480 --> 00:23:43,880
on the martyrdom. Just yeah, I mean, that's a good topic.

509
00:23:44,000 --> 00:23:48,960
But he has finished Matthew sixteen. So in Matthew sixteen

510
00:23:49,079 --> 00:23:50,839
it says that he's going to do it. He doesn't

511
00:23:50,839 --> 00:23:52,519
say that someone's going to get a vision of it.

512
00:23:52,680 --> 00:23:54,640
He says, the Son of Man is to come, is

513
00:23:54,680 --> 00:23:58,119
to come. That means he's coming. Doesn't mean you're going

514
00:23:58,160 --> 00:24:00,559
to see a dream of me coming. He says, the

515
00:24:00,559 --> 00:24:02,599
Son of Man is to come with his angels in

516
00:24:02,599 --> 00:24:04,720
the glory. And he says, some of you are standing

517
00:24:04,880 --> 00:24:08,319
hill will not taste death before that happens. And to

518
00:24:08,359 --> 00:24:11,279
be sure, some is not one person, some is some

519
00:24:11,480 --> 00:24:12,480
is always more than one.

520
00:24:13,119 --> 00:24:16,000
Speaker 3: Oh the some is that what you're saying like som

521
00:24:16,119 --> 00:24:17,119
is that what you're saying.

522
00:24:17,039 --> 00:24:18,799
Speaker 1: Or word, some is always more than one.

523
00:24:18,880 --> 00:24:21,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, okay, I get that, all right, I understand that.

524
00:24:21,359 --> 00:24:24,359
Well again, I go right back to revelation and and

525
00:24:24,359 --> 00:24:26,519
and when Jesus does come back, he is coming back

526
00:24:26,559 --> 00:24:28,799
with his angels. We win.

527
00:24:29,319 --> 00:24:32,000
Speaker 2: So you you admit he did not come back before

528
00:24:32,039 --> 00:24:34,839
any of his disciples died, despite him saying he would.

529
00:24:35,039 --> 00:24:38,319
Speaker 3: Well, he came. He came back when he rose from

530
00:24:38,359 --> 00:24:41,720
the dead while his disciples were still alive. And then

531
00:24:42,079 --> 00:24:44,960
and then when he left, you know, the angels said

532
00:24:45,319 --> 00:24:50,519
he will come again. So yes, and Jesus appeared over five.

533
00:24:50,400 --> 00:24:53,680
Speaker 2: Hundreds that's not the sequence he told He told him

534
00:24:53,720 --> 00:24:56,519
that he would come back after after he had died.

535
00:24:56,640 --> 00:24:59,599
So this is after he supposedly resurrected. He told them

536
00:24:59,599 --> 00:25:01,559
that they that they would that he would come back

537
00:25:01,599 --> 00:25:04,200
before any of his disciples died. That's a sequence.

538
00:25:04,240 --> 00:25:05,400
Speaker 3: He came back and he did.

539
00:25:05,680 --> 00:25:08,319
Speaker 2: No, he did not come back a third time. He

540
00:25:08,359 --> 00:25:10,160
has not come back a third time. That's what he's

541
00:25:10,200 --> 00:25:10,759
talking about.

542
00:25:11,319 --> 00:25:13,319
Speaker 3: He's going to come back the third time. He's going

543
00:25:13,400 --> 00:25:15,400
to come back. We just we don't know when. And

544
00:25:15,440 --> 00:25:16,880
I would make a suggestion to.

545
00:25:16,839 --> 00:25:22,160
Speaker 2: Both of you. You you, you really don't listen very well. Jim,

546
00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:24,920
you you don't. You don't listen very well. So again,

547
00:25:25,400 --> 00:25:29,279
just be quiet for a second and listen. After he resurrected,

548
00:25:29,680 --> 00:25:33,680
he told his disciples that before they died, he would

549
00:25:33,720 --> 00:25:37,559
come back. That's the sequence you're missing. This isn't before

550
00:25:37,559 --> 00:25:41,039
he died the first time. This is before he is

551
00:25:41,079 --> 00:25:44,079
after he resurrected. So he did not come back before

552
00:25:44,119 --> 00:25:46,000
any of his disciples died.

553
00:25:46,160 --> 00:25:49,039
Speaker 3: No, he came back. He came back after his resurrection.

554
00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:50,440
And that's where you guys miss it.

555
00:25:50,480 --> 00:25:53,559
Speaker 2: You didn't listen when he came again. You didn't listen.

556
00:25:54,799 --> 00:25:58,599
You did not listen. He died, he came back. He

557
00:25:58,759 --> 00:26:01,880
told the disciples that he will come back again for

558
00:26:02,039 --> 00:26:04,680
a third time before his disciples died.

559
00:26:05,039 --> 00:26:08,400
Speaker 3: Okay, well we're his we're his modern day disciples. We

560
00:26:08,480 --> 00:26:11,319
are his modern day disciples.

561
00:26:13,440 --> 00:26:17,079
Speaker 2: Wow, you're just making excuses. Hey that this that this,

562
00:26:17,559 --> 00:26:19,119
what he said is not true.

563
00:26:19,319 --> 00:26:22,200
Speaker 3: But hey, hey, Jim, you keep on driving your off

564
00:26:22,279 --> 00:26:25,359
race driving jeeps, and I'll see you both at the

565
00:26:25,359 --> 00:26:27,839
Great White Throne judgment when you burn in hell and

566
00:26:27,920 --> 00:26:28,440
for all of you.

567
00:26:31,400 --> 00:26:34,839
Speaker 2: That's all they got is the threat when they're done. Yeah,

568
00:26:35,440 --> 00:26:38,200
you know, the Christian is done with everything when they

569
00:26:38,200 --> 00:26:39,359
start threatening you with hell.

570
00:26:40,119 --> 00:26:42,200
Speaker 1: Hey, Robert, are you afraid of Muslim Hell?

571
00:26:42,440 --> 00:26:43,039
Speaker 3: Is the truth?

572
00:26:43,200 --> 00:26:44,640
Speaker 1: Robert, are you afraid of Muslim hell?

573
00:26:45,200 --> 00:26:47,319
Speaker 3: Muslims are going to hell? Almost?

574
00:26:47,680 --> 00:26:49,759
Speaker 1: That wasn't my question. My questions are you afraid of

575
00:26:49,799 --> 00:26:50,400
the Muslim Hell?

576
00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:53,680
Speaker 3: I'm not afraid of the Muslim hell because there isn't.

577
00:26:53,759 --> 00:26:55,759
Speaker 1: And why hell is there? You go, and we're not

578
00:26:55,839 --> 00:26:58,200
afraid of Christian hell because there is no Christian hell.

579
00:26:58,359 --> 00:27:01,240
So like you, threatening us with hell is most meaningless

580
00:27:01,240 --> 00:27:02,920
statement that could have ever been uttered.

581
00:27:03,160 --> 00:27:05,720
Speaker 3: Okay, well, justin I'm gonna say this you go back

582
00:27:05,759 --> 00:27:07,640
to I remember you made a comment a couple of

583
00:27:07,640 --> 00:27:10,720
weeks ago about comparing the Bible and contradictions, and you

584
00:27:10,759 --> 00:27:12,720
made a point to a gentleman that we're going to

585
00:27:12,759 --> 00:27:14,799
pick up a couple of tea one day and we're

586
00:27:14,799 --> 00:27:17,960
going to say, you know, maybe there are some compared

587
00:27:18,079 --> 00:27:22,200
some contradictions in the Bible. Notta smule I would suggested

588
00:27:22,279 --> 00:27:23,880
both of you. You guys are going to be on

589
00:27:23,920 --> 00:27:24,960
your deskbedge one day.

590
00:27:25,039 --> 00:27:28,960
Speaker 2: Okay, Well didn't we Yeah did we? Didn't we in

591
00:27:29,000 --> 00:27:31,599
fact prove there's a contradiction in the Bible. Actually, so

592
00:27:31,960 --> 00:27:33,480
justin just improove it twice.

593
00:27:33,559 --> 00:27:34,440
Speaker 3: No, you didn't know.

594
00:27:34,880 --> 00:27:37,680
Speaker 1: Let's do Let's do this because Robert really wants to

595
00:27:38,240 --> 00:27:40,240
worly wants to preach. So Robert, here's what we'll do.

596
00:27:40,319 --> 00:27:42,559
I know there's like we've interrupted you a lot, and

597
00:27:42,599 --> 00:27:44,680
you really want to get some things out. So I'm

598
00:27:44,680 --> 00:27:46,960
going to give you we got to move on, but

599
00:27:46,960 --> 00:27:49,000
I'm going to give you the next minute to say

600
00:27:49,039 --> 00:27:51,960
anything you want, completely unterrupted, and I promise I won't

601
00:27:51,960 --> 00:27:52,440
interrupt you.

602
00:27:52,440 --> 00:27:55,480
Speaker 3: Okay, fair enough, fair enough, Okay, let me say this

603
00:27:55,559 --> 00:27:59,319
to all of youss pray for these people, and I'll say.

604
00:27:59,160 --> 00:28:02,400
Speaker 1: You want Oh no, he got dropped. I don't know

605
00:28:02,440 --> 00:28:03,119
what happened there.

606
00:28:03,359 --> 00:28:10,680
Speaker 2: Oh yes, yeah, I know that happens. So that was

607
00:28:12,400 --> 00:28:15,119
I don't know why he expected it to go any differently.

608
00:28:15,279 --> 00:28:18,880
He apparently listens to you, and he apparently has listened

609
00:28:18,920 --> 00:28:20,759
to the show before because you knew who I was,

610
00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:24,640
so and he thought this would go somewhat differently because

611
00:28:24,680 --> 00:28:25,640
of his testimony.

612
00:28:25,880 --> 00:28:27,319
Speaker 1: I have no idea why I thought that was going

613
00:28:27,400 --> 00:28:30,960
to go. Wells A, that's out there. Well listen, friends,

614
00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:33,920
I got some announcements before bring in our next caller.

615
00:28:34,119 --> 00:28:36,720
The Atheist Experience is a product of the Atheist Community

616
00:28:36,759 --> 00:28:39,920
of Austin, a five to one c three nonprofit organization

617
00:28:40,319 --> 00:28:44,039
dedicated to the promotion of atheism, critical thinking, second humanism,

618
00:28:44,240 --> 00:28:49,160
and the separation of religion and government. Also, if you

619
00:28:49,279 --> 00:28:51,720
are watching now while I'm doing the announcements, is the

620
00:28:51,720 --> 00:28:54,640
perfect time to click the like and subscribe button and

621
00:28:54,759 --> 00:28:57,799
enable the notification so that you never miss a live stream.

622
00:28:57,880 --> 00:29:00,400
Another way to support us is by sending super We

623
00:29:00,440 --> 00:29:04,000
read them on screen between calls. After calls, we read

624
00:29:04,039 --> 00:29:07,640
as many as we can. And also, please do join

625
00:29:07,680 --> 00:29:10,359
our weekly watch parties if you're available at the Free

626
00:29:10,359 --> 00:29:14,160
Thought Library on Sundays for live viewings of Talkithen and

627
00:29:14,200 --> 00:29:17,359
the Atheist Experience every Sunday, doors open at noon. It's

628
00:29:17,359 --> 00:29:20,000
a great place to build community. Also, we want to

629
00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:22,599
send a big, big, big thank you out to the

630
00:29:22,640 --> 00:29:25,000
crew who put the show together every week. We've got

631
00:29:25,079 --> 00:29:29,119
video operators, audio operators, note takers, call screeners, chat moderators,

632
00:29:29,160 --> 00:29:32,519
and they make this show possible. I'm just talking ahead.

633
00:29:32,559 --> 00:29:34,359
Jim and I just kept here and talk. They're the

634
00:29:34,400 --> 00:29:36,640
ones actually doing all the work. So big round of

635
00:29:36,680 --> 00:29:40,319
applause for our friends actually making the show possible. And Jim,

636
00:29:40,319 --> 00:29:42,920
we've got two theis waiting to get in. I don't

637
00:29:42,920 --> 00:29:45,079
know if you have a preference. Walter wants to talk

638
00:29:45,079 --> 00:29:48,240
about C. S. Lewis and Benji wants to talk about

639
00:29:48,480 --> 00:29:51,000
where he thinks the idea of sin came from.

640
00:29:51,240 --> 00:29:53,839
Speaker 2: Yeah, I guess we could do C. S Lewis's argument.

641
00:29:53,880 --> 00:29:56,720
I mean, he's only got loss, only has three from desire,

642
00:29:56,839 --> 00:29:59,640
from reason, and form reality, none know which are very good.

643
00:29:59,720 --> 00:30:01,559
But wing and see what the caller has to say.

644
00:30:01,880 --> 00:30:05,480
Speaker 1: Indeed, all right, let's grab Walter here. I think he's

645
00:30:05,480 --> 00:30:09,400
loading up one second, Walter, thank you for joining us.

646
00:30:09,519 --> 00:30:12,039
It says that you've got an arguments for the existence

647
00:30:12,079 --> 00:30:15,319
of God from the mere Christianity book. Which one did

648
00:30:15,319 --> 00:30:15,880
you want to run?

649
00:30:16,119 --> 00:30:18,319
Speaker 5: Well? I think it's basic when there is a moral argument.

650
00:30:18,839 --> 00:30:24,200
Speaker 2: Oh no, the argument for morals. Yeah, it's the argument

651
00:30:24,240 --> 00:30:27,920
for morals. So first of all, is God is God?

652
00:30:28,119 --> 00:30:30,440
Is what God does moral? Because it's God? Or does

653
00:30:30,440 --> 00:30:32,440
God do moral things? I mean that's kind of the

654
00:30:32,440 --> 00:30:33,599
first thing you need to clear up.

655
00:30:34,240 --> 00:30:37,720
Speaker 5: Well, I think yeah, it creates an either or there.

656
00:30:37,720 --> 00:30:40,559
We both don't work. But if morality is in fact

657
00:30:40,559 --> 00:30:43,079
inherently in God's nature, then he's not doing it by

658
00:30:43,160 --> 00:30:45,119
it just he doesn't will it to be moral. And

659
00:30:45,160 --> 00:30:47,359
he's also not above a higher he's not coming under

660
00:30:47,359 --> 00:30:49,160
a higher law. It's just part of his nature.

661
00:30:49,240 --> 00:30:51,960
Speaker 2: Okay. So everything in the that God does in the Bible.

662
00:30:51,720 --> 00:30:53,839
Speaker 5: Is moral, absolutely, yeah.

663
00:30:53,480 --> 00:30:54,279
Speaker 2: Trusting.

664
00:30:55,400 --> 00:31:00,400
Speaker 1: You to Okay, Well, before we before we tie this

665
00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:03,640
particular claim, let me ask you a question, Like, if

666
00:31:03,680 --> 00:31:07,519
it was immoral to sexually assault somebody today, was it

667
00:31:07,559 --> 00:31:10,559
immoral to sexually assault them five thousand years ago as well?

668
00:31:10,799 --> 00:31:11,480
Speaker 5: That would be true.

669
00:31:11,559 --> 00:31:14,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, because like if it's immoral to do something.

670
00:31:14,039 --> 00:31:16,400
It's not really time dependent, right, that's great?

671
00:31:16,599 --> 00:31:16,920
Speaker 2: Okay.

672
00:31:17,119 --> 00:31:20,200
Speaker 1: Yeah. So that being said, was there ever a time

673
00:31:20,240 --> 00:31:25,079
period where it was moral to punish somebody with being

674
00:31:25,119 --> 00:31:25,960
sexually assaulted?

675
00:31:26,640 --> 00:31:27,079
Speaker 5: No?

676
00:31:27,079 --> 00:31:30,039
Speaker 1: No, that that certainly wouldn't be the case. Have you

677
00:31:30,119 --> 00:31:31,799
do you have a Bible with you? Would you read

678
00:31:31,799 --> 00:31:32,799
a Bible passage with me?

679
00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:33,759
Speaker 5: Absolutely?

680
00:31:33,960 --> 00:31:37,279
Speaker 1: Yeah, We're going to go to there's so many pick

681
00:31:37,359 --> 00:31:41,079
from Second Samuel. Let's go to chapter twelve. We're gonna

682
00:31:41,119 --> 00:31:43,160
verse eleven. Let me know when you get there.

683
00:31:43,319 --> 00:31:44,000
Speaker 5: Okay, got it.

684
00:31:44,200 --> 00:31:47,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, So this is a punishment handed down for what

685
00:31:47,359 --> 00:31:50,640
happened between David and Bathsheba. So Nathan is giving the

686
00:31:50,720 --> 00:31:54,240
prophecy from God about the punishment, and there are two punishments.

687
00:31:54,279 --> 00:31:57,640
One is that the baby born from Bathsheba is going

688
00:31:57,720 --> 00:32:00,359
to get sick and pass away. The other punishment it

689
00:32:00,359 --> 00:32:03,799
says this, I will raise up trouble against you from

690
00:32:03,839 --> 00:32:06,119
within your own household, and I will take your wives

691
00:32:06,160 --> 00:32:08,079
before your eyes and give them to your neighbor, and

692
00:32:08,119 --> 00:32:10,559
he shall lie with your wives in broad daylight. For

693
00:32:10,680 --> 00:32:13,079
you did it secretly, but I'll do this thing before

694
00:32:13,200 --> 00:32:15,960
all Israel and broad daylight. And then in chapter sixteen

695
00:32:16,279 --> 00:32:19,480
ten of David's wives get sexually assaulted by Abslom on

696
00:32:19,599 --> 00:32:20,559
the roof of the palace.

697
00:32:20,599 --> 00:32:21,759
Speaker 2: Okay, so that was.

698
00:32:21,759 --> 00:32:25,200
Speaker 1: Moral behavior, right when God had ten innocent women punished

699
00:32:25,200 --> 00:32:27,079
for the crimes of their husband with sexual assault.

700
00:32:27,240 --> 00:32:30,119
Speaker 5: Well, you asked if something that's moral today but with

701
00:32:30,279 --> 00:32:32,359
moral today would have been moral back then, and immoral

702
00:32:32,400 --> 00:32:34,559
today would have been immoral back then. And I agree

703
00:32:34,599 --> 00:32:36,759
with you. But now you're bringing God into the equation

704
00:32:36,880 --> 00:32:39,559
and God, what God does in the situation is different

705
00:32:39,559 --> 00:32:40,599
than what a human being does.

706
00:32:41,519 --> 00:32:45,119
Speaker 1: Did God sexually assault the women or who did it? Oh?

707
00:32:45,240 --> 00:32:48,359
Speaker 5: God? But God permitted a sexual so I'm sure that

708
00:32:48,759 --> 00:32:51,559
the assault or wasn't seeking to do the will of God.

709
00:32:51,599 --> 00:32:52,559
He just did as a thing.

710
00:32:52,720 --> 00:32:54,119
Speaker 3: But God, God.

711
00:32:53,759 --> 00:32:56,400
Speaker 1: Says he's causing it Verse eleven. He says, I will

712
00:32:56,440 --> 00:32:58,799
raise up trouble against you from within your own house,

713
00:32:58,799 --> 00:33:01,000
and I will take your wife before your eyes. So

714
00:33:01,200 --> 00:33:02,640
God is saying he's the one causing it.

715
00:33:02,960 --> 00:33:05,079
Speaker 5: That's only because God, in the sense, is CAUs all

716
00:33:05,079 --> 00:33:07,559
of everything, because he either does it, or permits it,

717
00:33:07,680 --> 00:33:09,680
or allows it or helps it.

718
00:33:10,400 --> 00:33:12,599
Speaker 1: If God causes everything, that means there's no such thing

719
00:33:12,599 --> 00:33:12,960
as sin.

720
00:33:13,440 --> 00:33:15,680
Speaker 5: Now, it means that when God does it, it's not sin,

721
00:33:15,759 --> 00:33:17,759
but when the person who he caused does it, it is.

722
00:33:17,920 --> 00:33:20,359
Speaker 2: So there's a different set of morals for God than

723
00:33:20,400 --> 00:33:23,880
there is for us, not so much for God.

724
00:33:24,480 --> 00:33:25,039
Speaker 5: Does God?

725
00:33:25,079 --> 00:33:27,279
Speaker 1: Does God have different morals than we do? Oh?

726
00:33:27,440 --> 00:33:29,960
Speaker 5: The moral law is something for man, it's something.

727
00:33:30,160 --> 00:33:32,279
Speaker 1: But what I'm asking is, does God have a different

728
00:33:32,319 --> 00:33:33,400
moral law than we do?

729
00:33:33,759 --> 00:33:33,839
Speaker 3: No?

730
00:33:34,200 --> 00:33:36,240
Speaker 1: Oh, okay, so then it would be immral for God

731
00:33:36,279 --> 00:33:37,440
to have women's sexual assaulted.

732
00:33:37,480 --> 00:33:38,039
Speaker 2: Do well.

733
00:33:38,079 --> 00:33:40,240
Speaker 5: What I'm what I'm saying is when you see a

734
00:33:40,319 --> 00:33:42,839
causal statement God, I'm going to God says I'm going

735
00:33:42,880 --> 00:33:45,200
to do this, it doesn't necessarily mean that God is

736
00:33:45,240 --> 00:33:47,720
going to directly because God's going to command someone to

737
00:33:47,759 --> 00:33:49,880
do it. There's no there's no state he's that he

738
00:33:49,920 --> 00:33:50,519
commands it.

739
00:33:50,759 --> 00:33:52,559
Speaker 1: No, he says he's doing it. He says, I will

740
00:33:52,640 --> 00:33:55,160
raise up trouble against you. He's the one raising up

741
00:33:55,200 --> 00:33:56,839
the trouble. Absolom's the trouble.

742
00:33:57,079 --> 00:33:59,440
Speaker 5: That's only because everything that happens in the universe is

743
00:33:59,480 --> 00:34:01,920
either done by I, got allowed by God, or helped

744
00:34:01,920 --> 00:34:03,559
by God. But it doesn't just happen by it.

745
00:34:03,640 --> 00:34:06,920
Speaker 1: I mean, listen, that's an adorable cope. But if that's

746
00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:09,599
the case, then sin doesn't exist. That means God's causing

747
00:34:09,639 --> 00:34:11,920
everyone to sin. So I don't think that's the argument

748
00:34:11,960 --> 00:34:13,039
you want, causing.

749
00:34:12,840 --> 00:34:16,000
Speaker 5: It by allowance. But interestingly, this is going far.

750
00:34:16,119 --> 00:34:19,320
Speaker 1: Oh you don't. You don't cause it by allowance. Causation

751
00:34:19,480 --> 00:34:21,199
is a separate thing from allowance.

752
00:34:21,440 --> 00:34:24,639
Speaker 5: Well, on what basis what's the canon of that logic?

753
00:34:25,639 --> 00:34:27,599
Speaker 1: Causation is not is not allowance.

754
00:34:28,119 --> 00:34:30,239
Speaker 2: So I'm saying if I allow somebody to get in

755
00:34:30,280 --> 00:34:32,199
front of me in a line, I don't cause them

756
00:34:32,239 --> 00:34:33,840
to get in front of me in the line. There's

757
00:34:33,880 --> 00:34:37,719
a difference. I am permitting something allowing somebody permitting something

758
00:34:37,760 --> 00:34:40,679
to do X. Now, if I allow somebody to borrow

759
00:34:40,800 --> 00:34:44,320
my car and they wreck it and cause an injury

760
00:34:44,360 --> 00:34:47,400
while doing that, I am not liable because I allowed them.

761
00:34:47,679 --> 00:34:49,400
I didn't but I allowed them to use my car,

762
00:34:49,400 --> 00:34:52,440
but I did not cause the car accident. That's the difference.

763
00:34:52,559 --> 00:34:56,079
And so if you say God is allowing things then

764
00:34:56,360 --> 00:34:59,599
when he could have prevented them, that's a whole different thing.

765
00:34:59,679 --> 00:35:03,119
So I allow somebody to rob a bank, I am

766
00:35:03,119 --> 00:35:04,079
now culpable for that.

767
00:35:04,599 --> 00:35:06,440
Speaker 5: So and that's and that's kind of the point The

768
00:35:06,480 --> 00:35:08,840
problem is you and I are not presuming that there

769
00:35:08,840 --> 00:35:11,000
were a God. You and I are not God. And

770
00:35:11,039 --> 00:35:13,000
so there are many things that happen that they don't

771
00:35:13,039 --> 00:35:15,239
happen because we allow them they happen. We don't really

772
00:35:15,239 --> 00:35:16,480
have any control the other.

773
00:35:16,679 --> 00:35:19,039
Speaker 1: But but God has ultimate control.

774
00:35:19,599 --> 00:35:23,039
Speaker 5: Is if I drown you in the water, I'm committing murder.

775
00:35:23,159 --> 00:35:25,119
Speaker 2: But if I see you, you caused it to happen.

776
00:35:25,599 --> 00:35:28,519
Speaker 1: Yeah, one is caused, one one you know, one is

777
00:35:28,719 --> 00:35:30,880
you causing it, and one is you not doing anything

778
00:35:30,920 --> 00:35:33,280
about it. That's why the causing it is the problem.

779
00:35:33,599 --> 00:35:33,760
Speaker 2: Right.

780
00:35:33,920 --> 00:35:35,199
Speaker 5: But if I let you go?

781
00:35:36,679 --> 00:35:39,880
Speaker 1: In Second Samuel twelve, does God say I'm allowing it?

782
00:35:40,000 --> 00:35:41,239
Or does he say I'm causing it?

783
00:35:41,320 --> 00:35:43,639
Speaker 5: Well, let's get the actual verse? Which one was the year?

784
00:35:43,800 --> 00:35:48,519
Speaker 1: I tell you it's Canadian mckeem, which means behold, I

785
00:35:48,599 --> 00:35:53,440
am causing to be raised up? What I'm I'm causing

786
00:35:53,519 --> 00:35:54,760
the trouble to be raised up?

787
00:35:54,880 --> 00:35:56,039
Speaker 5: What firse are you looking at?

788
00:35:56,199 --> 00:36:00,360
Speaker 1: I don't containment twelve eleven, Verse eleven. Gods stick credit

789
00:36:00,440 --> 00:36:02,480
for it. He's happy about it, he's proud of it.

790
00:36:02,960 --> 00:36:04,880
Speaker 5: I think what's happening there? And again, this is a

791
00:36:04,920 --> 00:36:07,320
far cry from my original question. But I think what's

792
00:36:07,360 --> 00:36:10,320
happening there is that whereas all kinds of things happen

793
00:36:10,360 --> 00:36:11,840
in the world that you and I don't cause we

794
00:36:11,840 --> 00:36:13,719
don't even allow them, we don't even know about them.

795
00:36:13,880 --> 00:36:15,840
If there is God, and if he's able to do it,

796
00:36:16,000 --> 00:36:18,280
if he allows something when he could have stopped it,

797
00:36:18,320 --> 00:36:18,920
he caused it.

798
00:36:19,039 --> 00:36:21,519
Speaker 1: Listen, Walter saying the same bad argument over again doesn't

799
00:36:21,519 --> 00:36:25,239
make it better. So the word machim in Hebrew is

800
00:36:25,239 --> 00:36:28,360
in the causative stem. It means the person who is

801
00:36:28,480 --> 00:36:31,159
doing it is causing it. That's what that means. That's

802
00:36:31,159 --> 00:36:35,039
why it's translated as God causing it to happen, because

803
00:36:35,079 --> 00:36:38,119
in the original text is literally in the first person

804
00:36:38,239 --> 00:36:39,119
causative form.

805
00:36:39,519 --> 00:36:42,760
Speaker 5: And so that heap that heap that Hebrew phrasing. When

806
00:36:42,800 --> 00:36:46,079
it involves human beings, there's a significant difference between causing

807
00:36:46,119 --> 00:36:46,639
and allowing.

808
00:36:46,760 --> 00:36:49,360
Speaker 1: But when we're talking about that said causing everything, and

809
00:36:49,400 --> 00:36:52,599
then there's no such thing as sin. If God causes

810
00:36:52,840 --> 00:36:56,360
everything to happen, then he caused every sin that was

811
00:36:56,360 --> 00:36:58,000
ever committed, caused.

812
00:36:57,679 --> 00:36:58,440
Speaker 5: It by allowing it.

813
00:36:58,519 --> 00:37:00,719
Speaker 1: Yees, No, I didn't say I said.

814
00:37:00,559 --> 00:37:02,719
Speaker 5: Cause I know you didn't say it, but I did.

815
00:37:03,199 --> 00:37:06,199
Speaker 1: I know you're trying to equivocate two words that aren't

816
00:37:06,199 --> 00:37:09,079
the same. I'm talking about causing something to happen, not

817
00:37:09,159 --> 00:37:12,760
allowing it. Do you agree that if you saw somebody's sin,

818
00:37:12,920 --> 00:37:14,079
you didn't cause that sin.

819
00:37:14,440 --> 00:37:16,239
Speaker 5: I'm just by seeing it? Yes, I agree?

820
00:37:16,320 --> 00:37:19,559
Speaker 1: Yeah, Okay, So just by watching something happen, just by

821
00:37:20,400 --> 00:37:23,039
or even not stopping it, allowing it to play out,

822
00:37:23,400 --> 00:37:26,519
doesn't mean that you were the cause of that sin.

823
00:37:26,599 --> 00:37:29,440
The person who did the sin is necessarily the cause.

824
00:37:29,559 --> 00:37:32,639
Just like when God says I am raising up trouble

825
00:37:32,679 --> 00:37:35,679
against you, God is taking credit for it. Now you're

826
00:37:35,679 --> 00:37:37,599
just telling me you hate what God says. You hate

827
00:37:37,639 --> 00:37:39,239
the Bible. Why do you hate the Bible?

828
00:37:39,480 --> 00:37:42,440
Speaker 5: Now? You're where's in my mouth? And you're putting cannons

829
00:37:42,440 --> 00:37:44,559
of logic in my mouth that don't exist either. The

830
00:37:44,599 --> 00:37:46,840
fact that you're dealing with the unique, you're dealing with

831
00:37:47,400 --> 00:37:49,920
in terms of like in mathematical when you have it,

832
00:37:49,960 --> 00:37:52,199
when you have a set, if God exists, he's the

833
00:37:52,239 --> 00:37:53,440
only one in the set.

834
00:37:53,320 --> 00:37:54,719
Speaker 1: Well, you're making it worse that better.

835
00:37:55,000 --> 00:37:56,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, because that has absolutely nothing to do with what

836
00:37:56,920 --> 00:37:59,800
justice we're talking to you about. Because You're trying to

837
00:37:59,840 --> 00:38:04,440
make allow and cause into synonyms, and they aren't synonyms.

838
00:38:04,519 --> 00:38:08,039
And that's the problem. Justin is telling you what the

839
00:38:08,039 --> 00:38:10,719
the Hebrew words are and where do they come from,

840
00:38:10,800 --> 00:38:13,719
and what they actually mean, and that you can't make

841
00:38:13,920 --> 00:38:17,119
allow and cause synonyms. You just can't do it. Otherwise

842
00:38:17,159 --> 00:38:21,559
you're changing words to fit your particular belief and that's

843
00:38:21,679 --> 00:38:22,880
just that's bad logic.

844
00:38:23,119 --> 00:38:25,000
Speaker 5: I was I was or daina minister in eighty five.

845
00:38:25,039 --> 00:38:27,280
I studied both Hebrew and Greek, and I'm very familiar

846
00:38:27,360 --> 00:38:29,320
with the language. But I'm also saying.

847
00:38:29,119 --> 00:38:33,039
Speaker 2: That God, well you should know that God is.

848
00:38:32,960 --> 00:38:34,679
Speaker 5: The only one in the set, and so you and

849
00:38:34,719 --> 00:38:37,320
I there's a huge difference in my causing and my allowing.

850
00:38:37,360 --> 00:38:40,000
But in God's case, and he even allowing is causing.

851
00:38:40,039 --> 00:38:42,920
The very fact that he created the world means that everything.

852
00:38:42,960 --> 00:38:45,119
Speaker 1: I don't know how Walter, how many times are you

853
00:38:45,119 --> 00:38:46,880
going to say the same bad talking point. It's like

854
00:38:46,920 --> 00:38:49,760
you're like you're stuck on a loop. It's like you're

855
00:38:49,880 --> 00:38:52,519
you're like you like you can't get out of the

856
00:38:52,800 --> 00:38:55,239
hamster wheel. You're stuck, buddy, going round and round and

857
00:38:55,280 --> 00:38:57,559
seeing the same thing. It didn't work the first ten

858
00:38:57,639 --> 00:38:59,960
times that it's not going to work. The eleventh time, when God,

859
00:39:00,000 --> 00:39:03,800
God says I'm causing it to happen, the only mature

860
00:39:03,880 --> 00:39:07,119
thing to do is to admit that God is causing

861
00:39:07,159 --> 00:39:08,800
it to happen, because that's what he said.

862
00:39:09,079 --> 00:39:11,000
Speaker 5: All God is saying by that is he's saying that

863
00:39:11,079 --> 00:39:13,039
this event that you might see is a random event

864
00:39:13,079 --> 00:39:15,400
coming in the future. I have control over it, and

865
00:39:15,440 --> 00:39:17,360
I'm going to allow that to happen for my honor

866
00:39:17,360 --> 00:39:18,400
and glory.

867
00:39:18,519 --> 00:39:20,800
Speaker 1: But did he say that? Did he say I'm allowing it?

868
00:39:20,960 --> 00:39:23,119
Speaker 5: Didn't use that word, but he's speaking.

869
00:39:23,280 --> 00:39:26,800
Speaker 1: Okay, so we'll try this again and say yes or no.

870
00:39:26,960 --> 00:39:28,639
Did he say I'm allowing it?

871
00:39:28,760 --> 00:39:30,840
Speaker 2: He didn't use those words yes or no.

872
00:39:31,000 --> 00:39:32,519
Speaker 1: Did he say I'm allowing it?

873
00:39:33,000 --> 00:39:33,239
Speaker 5: No?

874
00:39:33,920 --> 00:39:37,039
Speaker 1: Okay, what did he say? What were his actual words?

875
00:39:37,400 --> 00:39:38,280
Speaker 5: I'm causing it?

876
00:39:38,400 --> 00:39:41,639
Speaker 1: There you go. That means he is causing it. Anything

877
00:39:42,000 --> 00:39:44,679
other than that is lying on the book. God said

878
00:39:44,760 --> 00:39:47,119
I'm causing it. And you know how we know that

879
00:39:47,159 --> 00:39:51,360
God is causing it because it's a punishment, the punishment

880
00:39:51,440 --> 00:39:54,760
for somebody's actions. Meaning, had David not done it, this

881
00:39:54,800 --> 00:39:57,440
wouldn't have happened. To his wives. The same reason why

882
00:39:57,480 --> 00:40:01,559
the child wouldn't have died is a punishment that God chose.

883
00:40:01,599 --> 00:40:03,440
He decided this is the punishment, right.

884
00:40:03,679 --> 00:40:06,760
Speaker 5: But God didn't go and sexually assault anyone. God allowed

885
00:40:06,960 --> 00:40:07,679
someone else.

886
00:40:07,480 --> 00:40:10,119
Speaker 2: To cast He caused it.

887
00:40:10,159 --> 00:40:12,079
Speaker 5: So we're just we're just going to differ on the

888
00:40:12,079 --> 00:40:14,159
meaning of the word there. But it's not due to

889
00:40:14,239 --> 00:40:15,239
long Hebrew.

890
00:40:14,920 --> 00:40:17,559
Speaker 1: Anymore or different different on the meaning of what word

891
00:40:17,599 --> 00:40:18,519
he says he causes it.

892
00:40:19,199 --> 00:40:20,880
Speaker 5: Bye by you saying it over and over again, you're

893
00:40:20,880 --> 00:40:22,760
in a hamster wheel too. So maybe we should get

894
00:40:22,760 --> 00:40:24,119
to my original question, which.

895
00:40:24,119 --> 00:40:27,800
Speaker 1: Because because I'm hoping eventually you'll be honest, did God

896
00:40:27,920 --> 00:40:29,079
cause this event to happen?

897
00:40:29,119 --> 00:40:29,280
Speaker 3: Yes?

898
00:40:29,360 --> 00:40:29,559
Speaker 6: Or no?

899
00:40:30,320 --> 00:40:31,639
Speaker 5: Lewis doesn't that was it?

900
00:40:32,440 --> 00:40:35,119
Speaker 1: Was it God's decision on whether or not this event

901
00:40:35,159 --> 00:40:35,719
would happen.

902
00:40:36,079 --> 00:40:38,599
Speaker 5: You know, Lewis says he's going to prove God without

903
00:40:38,599 --> 00:40:39,920
the Bible, and you insist on going.

904
00:40:40,039 --> 00:40:43,760
Speaker 1: This's crazy that you can't actually pay attention. Would this

905
00:40:43,920 --> 00:40:46,320
event have happened if God didn't cause it?

906
00:40:46,519 --> 00:40:48,559
Speaker 5: You can't answer my question. I'm very sorry to hear that.

907
00:40:48,599 --> 00:40:50,960
Speaker 1: I wish you don't even heard your question, Walter, because

908
00:40:50,960 --> 00:40:54,079
we're waiting for you to stop running away from second Samuel.

909
00:40:54,199 --> 00:40:57,519
So would the raping of the ten wives had happened

910
00:40:57,840 --> 00:40:59,119
if God didn't cause.

911
00:40:58,920 --> 00:41:01,360
Speaker 5: It's nothing in the world world that happens that. If God

912
00:41:01,400 --> 00:41:03,360
doesn't cause it, because God is the first cause.

913
00:41:03,800 --> 00:41:07,760
Speaker 1: Then again, if that is your point, you're strictly a determinist,

914
00:41:07,760 --> 00:41:09,960
and there's no such thing as sin. It was predetermined.

915
00:41:10,239 --> 00:41:13,000
You keep neutering your own religion. Why do you keep

916
00:41:13,000 --> 00:41:15,159
doing this? This is a horrible talking point.

917
00:41:15,320 --> 00:41:18,480
Speaker 5: Because when God causes a sin, that doesn't mean God's sins.

918
00:41:19,280 --> 00:41:22,000
Speaker 1: I didn't say God sinned. That never left my mouth.

919
00:41:22,079 --> 00:41:25,000
I said, did God cause this event to happen?

920
00:41:25,360 --> 00:41:28,599
Speaker 5: Okay? And I agree he did, But but you were trying.

921
00:41:28,400 --> 00:41:32,920
Speaker 1: To Okay, fantastic. So God caused this event to happen,

922
00:41:33,039 --> 00:41:37,840
which means God caused the punishment for David sin to

923
00:41:37,880 --> 00:41:40,760
be the raping of twelve women or I'm sorry, a

924
00:41:40,840 --> 00:41:47,039
ten women. God caused something that you said was objectively immoral, right, I.

925
00:41:47,000 --> 00:41:48,920
Speaker 5: Said, it would be immoral for a person to.

926
00:41:48,840 --> 00:41:51,320
Speaker 1: Do it, But go You didn't say that. You know,

927
00:41:51,519 --> 00:41:53,960
God caused a person to do it, which means it's immral.

928
00:41:54,239 --> 00:41:56,239
Speaker 5: You asked me if morals are the same today and.

929
00:41:56,239 --> 00:41:59,840
Speaker 1: Sorry, I said, yeh is Absolom a human being?

930
00:42:00,400 --> 00:42:01,000
Speaker 5: Yes he was.

931
00:42:01,199 --> 00:42:05,280
Speaker 1: Did God cause Abslom to do what he did? No wrong?

932
00:42:05,320 --> 00:42:05,559
Speaker 7: Again?

933
00:42:05,679 --> 00:42:07,920
Speaker 1: The answer is yes, He did cause Abslom to do it.

934
00:42:08,000 --> 00:42:09,559
He says he's he's doing it.

935
00:42:09,679 --> 00:42:12,239
Speaker 5: Well, you can say it's wrong, but you're just saying it,

936
00:42:12,280 --> 00:42:13,159
and you are wrong.

937
00:42:13,159 --> 00:42:15,360
Speaker 1: You already admitted it. You said that this event wouldn't

938
00:42:15,360 --> 00:42:17,760
have happened unless God cause it to happen. That means

939
00:42:17,840 --> 00:42:21,159
you know that it wouldn't have happened other than God's doing.

940
00:42:21,320 --> 00:42:24,280
And if Abslom was the instrument of the doing, that

941
00:42:24,400 --> 00:42:27,880
means God caused Absolom to do something horrific.

942
00:42:28,039 --> 00:42:30,639
Speaker 5: But if God caused Abslin to do something horrific, it's

943
00:42:30,639 --> 00:42:33,000
not the same as God doing something horrific himself.

944
00:42:33,159 --> 00:42:35,800
Speaker 1: I didn't say it was, and trust me it is

945
00:42:35,840 --> 00:42:39,239
because when God causes something to happen, you can't like

946
00:42:39,320 --> 00:42:41,199
I don't know if you're a Calvinist, but you're sounding

947
00:42:41,239 --> 00:42:43,920
quasi calvinists. Can you thwart God's will?

948
00:42:45,320 --> 00:42:48,440
Speaker 5: You can't his final will that you can certainly, Oh

949
00:42:48,480 --> 00:42:49,159
so you can't.

950
00:42:49,239 --> 00:42:52,920
Speaker 1: If you can't thwart God's will, can you make God

951
00:42:52,960 --> 00:42:56,079
wrong about what he knows in the future. Okay, so

952
00:42:56,119 --> 00:42:57,880
if you can't make God wrong about what he knows

953
00:42:57,920 --> 00:43:00,480
about the future, that means abslin didn't have a choice.

954
00:43:00,480 --> 00:43:04,119
He had to rape those women have a choice, he didn't.

955
00:43:04,320 --> 00:43:06,599
God can't be wrong about what he knows. And God

956
00:43:06,719 --> 00:43:09,840
pricked it before it would happen, which means Absolom had

957
00:43:09,880 --> 00:43:11,159
no choice. It was determined.

958
00:43:11,639 --> 00:43:13,880
Speaker 5: If God is able to know the future, some would

959
00:43:13,880 --> 00:43:16,039
say that means there can't be any free will, just

960
00:43:16,119 --> 00:43:18,519
like if science can determine the future, some would say

961
00:43:18,519 --> 00:43:19,599
there can't be any free will.

962
00:43:19,719 --> 00:43:20,559
Speaker 1: No, I don't agree with that.

963
00:43:21,280 --> 00:43:24,119
Speaker 5: Your point that I happen to think it's possible for

964
00:43:24,199 --> 00:43:26,320
God to know something will happen, and yet it's still

965
00:43:26,360 --> 00:43:27,679
someone's free choice to do it.

966
00:43:27,800 --> 00:43:31,559
Speaker 1: Oh, I disagree. I can know all things and not

967
00:43:32,280 --> 00:43:39,440
fall into like a predestination situation. God can't know all

968
00:43:39,519 --> 00:43:42,519
things without predestination because God is the one who kicked

969
00:43:42,519 --> 00:43:44,760
everything off from the beginning of creation. He is the

970
00:43:44,760 --> 00:43:47,960
one who tweaked all the recipe parameters. He got to

971
00:43:48,039 --> 00:43:50,159
change any recipe parameber he wanted to. He could have

972
00:43:50,440 --> 00:43:52,880
made like one wiggle of the nose and made it

973
00:43:52,920 --> 00:43:55,239
so that I would be a televangelists. He could have

974
00:43:55,239 --> 00:43:56,880
done that. That's something he could have done before he

975
00:43:57,159 --> 00:43:59,960
created anything, and he chose not to. He saw the

976
00:44:00,159 --> 00:44:02,800
future and said, yes, this is the future I want.

977
00:44:03,039 --> 00:44:06,599
That means everything in the God worldview is predetermined.

978
00:44:06,800 --> 00:44:08,840
Speaker 5: Okay, let me ask you a question. Do you believe

979
00:44:08,840 --> 00:44:09,400
in free will?

980
00:44:10,039 --> 00:44:11,360
Speaker 1: No? In fact, you don't either.

981
00:44:11,639 --> 00:44:13,199
Speaker 5: Well I didn't ask what I did, I asked it

982
00:44:13,280 --> 00:44:13,519
you do.

983
00:44:14,039 --> 00:44:18,840
Speaker 1: I'm I'm a little bit agnostic on whether or not

984
00:44:18,920 --> 00:44:21,760
we have freedom of choice, but I know for a

985
00:44:21,800 --> 00:44:25,119
fact we don't have free will. Like, libertarian free will

986
00:44:25,199 --> 00:44:25,639
is not a thing.

987
00:44:26,920 --> 00:44:28,920
Speaker 5: I do you distinguish free wills for free choice?

988
00:44:28,960 --> 00:44:32,039
Speaker 1: Well, libertarian free will just means you are acting without

989
00:44:32,079 --> 00:44:37,360
any outside influences, meaning there's nothing that would influence my decision.

990
00:44:37,559 --> 00:44:40,280
But the reality is neither of us actually have that. Now,

991
00:44:40,320 --> 00:44:42,800
you might say we have freedom of choice, but I

992
00:44:42,840 --> 00:44:45,159
don't know if we really have freedom of choice. I'm

993
00:44:45,239 --> 00:44:48,400
the jury's out in my world about determinism. I'm still

994
00:44:48,400 --> 00:44:51,280
trying to figure out if determinism is the best viewpoint

995
00:44:51,320 --> 00:44:54,599
for my position. But the reality is, in your worldview,

996
00:44:54,800 --> 00:44:57,360
everything is predetermined. Ephesians chapter two says so.

997
00:44:57,639 --> 00:45:00,639
Speaker 5: Well, a Calvinist interpretation of Ephesian two. And I did

998
00:45:00,679 --> 00:45:02,519
start out as a calvin but not any.

999
00:45:02,480 --> 00:45:04,800
Speaker 1: I mean the Ephesian's one. I apologize.

1000
00:45:06,599 --> 00:45:07,800
Speaker 2: Do you know what the problem? Do you know what

1001
00:45:07,880 --> 00:45:10,480
the problem with God determining everything else? From a moral

1002
00:45:10,519 --> 00:45:13,800
point of view? Are you familiar with the depraved indifference

1003
00:45:13,880 --> 00:45:15,519
or depraved heart murder laws?

1004
00:45:15,719 --> 00:45:16,400
Speaker 5: Yeah? I am.

1005
00:45:16,599 --> 00:45:19,639
Speaker 2: Ah, Well, your God, if your God created a world

1006
00:45:19,719 --> 00:45:23,880
in which he knew people would die and commit murder

1007
00:45:23,880 --> 00:45:26,320
and do all of the things that we agree are immoral,

1008
00:45:27,199 --> 00:45:31,440
isn't he then not moral? Because you know, because we

1009
00:45:31,480 --> 00:45:35,159
look at depraved heart and indifference is being wrong.

1010
00:45:35,400 --> 00:45:37,920
Speaker 5: No, because again, God is the only one in a set.

1011
00:45:38,079 --> 00:45:40,079
If there is a God, he's the only one.

1012
00:45:39,960 --> 00:45:42,400
Speaker 2: That has nothing to do with it, right, God, God

1013
00:45:42,519 --> 00:45:46,639
knows everything. God has the ability to change everything. And

1014
00:45:46,719 --> 00:45:50,039
God is supposed to be benevolent according to you. Therefore,

1015
00:45:50,079 --> 00:45:52,559
when God started the universe, he started the universe to

1016
00:45:52,639 --> 00:45:53,440
kill his own son.

1017
00:45:53,840 --> 00:45:56,079
Speaker 5: No, I don't believe God has the ability to do anything.

1018
00:45:56,159 --> 00:45:58,519
I don't believe God can make two plus two equal five.

1019
00:45:58,960 --> 00:46:01,320
Speaker 2: That's not what I mean. He knew everything is logically possible.

1020
00:46:01,440 --> 00:46:04,719
He's omnipotent. He can do anything that is logically possible.

1021
00:46:05,239 --> 00:46:07,400
So no, he can't square circle, and he can't make

1022
00:46:07,440 --> 00:46:09,079
a married bachelor, and he can't do any of those

1023
00:46:09,119 --> 00:46:12,719
other nonsense things. But what he can do is create

1024
00:46:12,760 --> 00:46:14,599
a universe where he doesn't have to kill his own son.

1025
00:46:14,719 --> 00:46:18,440
And yet he didn't and had to kill his own son. Therefore,

1026
00:46:19,079 --> 00:46:21,079
he created the universe to kill his own son.

1027
00:46:21,559 --> 00:46:23,719
Speaker 5: If he wanted, if he wanted, to create a universe

1028
00:46:23,760 --> 00:46:26,639
where free will existed as the results and fruit of

1029
00:46:26,679 --> 00:46:27,039
free will.

1030
00:46:27,079 --> 00:46:29,960
Speaker 2: So he's not omnipotent because he's limited by free will.

1031
00:46:30,079 --> 00:46:31,800
Speaker 5: He limits himself by free will.

1032
00:46:31,960 --> 00:46:35,239
Speaker 2: He's not omnipotent because and you're you're saying, the only

1033
00:46:35,280 --> 00:46:39,079
way he can change anything is through free will. Except

1034
00:46:39,079 --> 00:46:43,440
that we know that mental states are a thing, so

1035
00:46:43,599 --> 00:46:46,199
we can tell up to almost three seconds before somebody

1036
00:46:46,239 --> 00:46:47,760
is going to make a decision what they're going to

1037
00:46:47,800 --> 00:46:50,800
make by looking at their mind. Therefore, everybody's mind is

1038
00:46:50,840 --> 00:46:56,000
a noble state. So means that God knows the state

1039
00:46:56,039 --> 00:46:58,239
of all of our minds. He knows what will have

1040
00:46:58,400 --> 00:47:01,679
us make certain choices and what won't. He knows what

1041
00:47:01,719 --> 00:47:05,119
will allow some people to be serial killers, and some

1042
00:47:05,159 --> 00:47:08,760
people not, and he made a world where that's not possible,

1043
00:47:08,800 --> 00:47:12,440
and he made a world where his son died. Therefore,

1044
00:47:12,440 --> 00:47:13,320
he killed his own son.

1045
00:47:13,880 --> 00:47:17,079
Speaker 5: So you're you're taking a different position than you than

1046
00:47:17,159 --> 00:47:19,440
your partner on the issue of free will. You're saying

1047
00:47:19,440 --> 00:47:21,840
that the jury, he's kind of saying the jury is

1048
00:47:21,880 --> 00:47:24,079
not in yet, whether or not it exists, You're.

1049
00:47:23,960 --> 00:47:26,800
Speaker 1: Quite mean, that's what I'm saying. That's that's my opinion.

1050
00:47:26,840 --> 00:47:29,880
I don't know if determinism is a view. My my

1051
00:47:30,039 --> 00:47:33,159
view on determinism isn't. I'm not speaking for Jim when

1052
00:47:33,199 --> 00:47:34,039
I want to do that.

1053
00:47:34,440 --> 00:47:37,199
Speaker 2: And to be clear, if you have someone who is

1054
00:47:37,280 --> 00:47:40,519
a serial killer generally has some sort of defect in

1055
00:47:40,559 --> 00:47:43,320
the brain, so free will doesn't even end to it.

1056
00:47:43,559 --> 00:47:46,320
In fact, you could make it. Some psychologists may, and

1057
00:47:46,400 --> 00:47:49,079
I don't know this for sure, may make the claim

1058
00:47:49,159 --> 00:47:51,679
that it is not free will that allows that they

1059
00:47:51,679 --> 00:47:53,719
don't have free will to not be a serial killer.

1060
00:47:53,760 --> 00:47:57,320
But either way, it's a problem with the brain. It's physical.

1061
00:47:57,880 --> 00:48:01,559
God knew that would happen. God is at least responsible

1062
00:48:01,599 --> 00:48:05,400
for every serial killer. God knows every possible brainstake. He

1063
00:48:05,440 --> 00:48:08,320
knows what choices we're going to make and why, and

1064
00:48:08,360 --> 00:48:12,239
created a universe knowing all of this, where he had

1065
00:48:12,280 --> 00:48:13,199
to kill his own son.

1066
00:48:13,400 --> 00:48:15,199
Speaker 5: Well, first of all, I don't believe he killed his

1067
00:48:15,239 --> 00:48:17,559
own son. He allowed his son to be killed by people.

1068
00:48:17,719 --> 00:48:18,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, depraved indifference.

1069
00:48:19,199 --> 00:48:22,199
Speaker 1: It was prophesied, it had to happen, Jesus said so,

1070
00:48:22,320 --> 00:48:24,719
he said he had to get betrayed and handled over

1071
00:48:24,800 --> 00:48:25,840
to fulfill the prophecy.

1072
00:48:26,159 --> 00:48:28,000
Speaker 5: That's where God and us are different. Where you and

1073
00:48:28,079 --> 00:48:30,000
I could be charged with depraved and difference in a

1074
00:48:30,079 --> 00:48:32,360
court of law. God could be charged with depraved and

1075
00:48:32,360 --> 00:48:35,280
difference for anything that ever happens anywhere, because he knows everything.

1076
00:48:35,400 --> 00:48:40,079
Speaker 2: You can go, yeah, yes, that.

1077
00:48:41,840 --> 00:48:42,360
Speaker 1: Maniac.

1078
00:48:46,039 --> 00:48:49,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, you're right. God is not moral. There's your

1079
00:48:49,320 --> 00:48:52,760
moral argument. It's dead, dead on arrival because God is

1080
00:48:52,800 --> 00:48:55,199
not moral. But you would know why else it's dead

1081
00:48:55,239 --> 00:48:57,159
on arrival. We can get into some science if you want.

1082
00:48:57,320 --> 00:48:59,440
Speaker 5: No, that's all right, that's the right. I'm just I'm

1083
00:48:59,519 --> 00:49:01,280
kind of cure as to why you guys don't want

1084
00:49:01,320 --> 00:49:03,679
to don't want to address Lewis's argument, Perhaps neither want

1085
00:49:03,679 --> 00:49:04,280
to read I do.

1086
00:49:04,400 --> 00:49:06,199
Speaker 1: Go ahead, go ahead and give it, give me the

1087
00:49:06,280 --> 00:49:08,199
give me the argument from top to bottom of address it.

1088
00:49:08,320 --> 00:49:10,440
Speaker 5: Well, he starts that with the fact that we seem

1089
00:49:10,480 --> 00:49:12,960
to all have a sense of right and wrong, and

1090
00:49:13,000 --> 00:49:15,559
then he tries to go through various theories as to

1091
00:49:15,599 --> 00:49:18,679
what causes that, and he ends up saying that there

1092
00:49:18,719 --> 00:49:21,159
is no real theory other than believe in God.

1093
00:49:21,440 --> 00:49:24,599
Speaker 2: Yeah, so Lewis lived in the early nineteen hundreds. He

1094
00:49:24,639 --> 00:49:27,639
didn't know what we know today about biology. And what

1095
00:49:27,679 --> 00:49:31,840
we know today about biology is that behavior that we

1096
00:49:31,920 --> 00:49:38,159
call moral exists all throughout nature. Right, So scientists have

1097
00:49:38,239 --> 00:49:41,639
taken rats and they've taught rats that if you do this,

1098
00:49:41,719 --> 00:49:44,119
you get a reward. Then they taught the rat that

1099
00:49:44,159 --> 00:49:46,079
if you do this, you get a reward, and you'll

1100
00:49:46,079 --> 00:49:48,519
harm this rat you don't know. One hundred percent of

1101
00:49:48,519 --> 00:49:51,280
the time, rats won't harm that other rat, even if

1102
00:49:51,320 --> 00:49:53,920
they don't know them, something humans don't do. So in

1103
00:49:53,960 --> 00:49:57,360
this one respect, rats are more moral than humans, right

1104
00:49:57,440 --> 00:49:59,920
because they do they do the right thing every time.

1105
00:50:00,480 --> 00:50:05,320
So that's a problem. Chimpanzees and dogs understand that they

1106
00:50:05,360 --> 00:50:07,159
if they can do the same thing and don't get

1107
00:50:07,159 --> 00:50:10,400
rewarded the same the same they will get jealous. They

1108
00:50:10,480 --> 00:50:13,000
understand that that is not fair. So we see moral

1109
00:50:13,039 --> 00:50:18,679
behavior there we see moral behavior in everywhere, right, and

1110
00:50:18,760 --> 00:50:22,039
so we even see more the beginnings I won't say

1111
00:50:22,320 --> 00:50:26,719
the begin very beginnings of moral behavior in bacteria, where

1112
00:50:26,800 --> 00:50:29,800
a strain of bacteria, two strains of bacteria will cooperate,

1113
00:50:29,880 --> 00:50:32,559
one will decide to cheat, and if the other one

1114
00:50:33,000 --> 00:50:36,159
detects it, they will stop cooperating with them. It's really

1115
00:50:36,239 --> 00:50:39,320
really basic, and I hesitate to even call it morals

1116
00:50:39,360 --> 00:50:41,920
because it's kind of just the basics. But we see

1117
00:50:41,960 --> 00:50:45,320
this throughout nature. And a reason we see it throughout

1118
00:50:45,400 --> 00:50:49,760
nature is because cooperation is a survival strategy, and if

1119
00:50:49,920 --> 00:50:52,119
organisms are going to cooperate, they have to have a

1120
00:50:52,159 --> 00:50:53,880
certain set of rules. They have to be able to

1121
00:50:53,920 --> 00:50:57,400
trust each other. That's where morals come from. So he

1122
00:50:57,559 --> 00:51:00,400
was completely wrong, and what he knew that is not

1123
00:51:00,519 --> 00:51:04,440
what we know today about behavior across the spectrum. That's

1124
00:51:04,519 --> 00:51:05,039
the problem.

1125
00:51:05,679 --> 00:51:08,079
Speaker 5: First of all, I think you're answer morphizing animals.

1126
00:51:08,159 --> 00:51:11,320
Speaker 2: Nope, nope, nope, nope, nope. Like I said, you go,

1127
00:51:12,079 --> 00:51:14,119
I could actually provide you the research if you give

1128
00:51:14,119 --> 00:51:17,039
me a couple of minutes. But the rats research, there's

1129
00:51:17,079 --> 00:51:21,719
a research on chimpanzee. Not chimpanzees, it's another monkey and

1130
00:51:21,760 --> 00:51:23,840
the understanding of fairness. You can do if you have

1131
00:51:23,920 --> 00:51:26,400
two dogs, get them do the same thing, give one

1132
00:51:26,440 --> 00:51:29,679
a better reward than the other. See what happens. They've

1133
00:51:29,800 --> 00:51:36,719
studied meerkats marcats, who will, in many cases, uh make

1134
00:51:36,800 --> 00:51:39,960
a loud noise to warn somebody of predators. Some people

1135
00:51:40,000 --> 00:51:44,000
think that that actually will attract predators and makes them

1136
00:51:44,039 --> 00:51:46,360
more liable. But since they're the first ones to see it,

1137
00:51:46,400 --> 00:51:49,719
they may have gone in. But we see behavior that

1138
00:51:49,760 --> 00:51:54,599
we would call moral everywhere, and that's not anthropomorphizing animals

1139
00:51:54,599 --> 00:51:57,920
by any stretch of the imagination. Has just behavior that

1140
00:51:57,960 --> 00:52:01,039
we see. I mean, what else? What else would you

1141
00:52:01,119 --> 00:52:05,320
call it? When a rat refuses to be rewarded for punishing,

1142
00:52:05,440 --> 00:52:10,360
for punishing, not punishing, but for causing harm to another rap?

1143
00:52:10,920 --> 00:52:13,280
Is that moral behavior? What would you call that behavior?

1144
00:52:13,679 --> 00:52:15,840
Speaker 5: I would just call it behavior. I don't know what

1145
00:52:15,920 --> 00:52:17,679
to call it because I can't get inside a rat

1146
00:52:17,679 --> 00:52:18,760
and know how a rat thinks.

1147
00:52:19,239 --> 00:52:23,239
Speaker 2: Who cares? I mean, humans do the same thing, doesn't

1148
00:52:23,280 --> 00:52:24,119
matter what they think.

1149
00:52:24,320 --> 00:52:26,559
Speaker 5: Well, let me just forsake of argument, say that your

1150
00:52:26,639 --> 00:52:29,440
argument is correct. Lewis does address that you're saying, He

1151
00:52:29,440 --> 00:52:32,000
didn't address it. They didn't know that He definitely addresses

1152
00:52:32,000 --> 00:52:35,159
the cooperation theory, the theory that the so called moral

1153
00:52:35,199 --> 00:52:37,280
law is not divine, but it's just that we've learned

1154
00:52:37,440 --> 00:52:39,719
as a society that it makes more sense to behave

1155
00:52:39,760 --> 00:52:42,480
in certain ways. He addresses that argument. But the problem

1156
00:52:42,519 --> 00:52:44,480
is then you end up with something like if that's

1157
00:52:44,519 --> 00:52:47,559
all just a very complex form of the survival of

1158
00:52:47,639 --> 00:52:50,320
the fittest, then what about somebody who willingly gives up

1159
00:52:50,320 --> 00:52:52,719
their life to save someone else? That makes no sense

1160
00:52:52,760 --> 00:52:54,400
in the survival of the fittest context.

1161
00:52:55,039 --> 00:52:57,880
Speaker 2: Actually, so you're I think you're using survival of the

1162
00:52:57,920 --> 00:53:02,440
fitist incorrectly. It's fittest does not mean someone can go

1163
00:53:02,480 --> 00:53:06,599
and do CrossFit or anything about physical fitness. It does

1164
00:53:06,679 --> 00:53:10,760
mean about adaptability to their environment. So it's a fitting

1165
00:53:10,880 --> 00:53:16,239
into the environment. So but yes, actually we will see

1166
00:53:16,280 --> 00:53:20,519
you know, dogs have sacrificed themselves for humans before they've

1167
00:53:20,519 --> 00:53:24,039
sacrificed themselves. Sheep dogs, you know, throw themselves in front

1168
00:53:24,079 --> 00:53:26,599
of wolves. So to say that we don't see that

1169
00:53:26,679 --> 00:53:29,559
and that's not moral behavior, that doesn't make any sense

1170
00:53:29,599 --> 00:53:33,159
to me. So, I mean we see that behavior in animals,

1171
00:53:33,320 --> 00:53:35,199
so again doesn't address it.

1172
00:53:35,280 --> 00:53:37,280
Speaker 5: I don't know what an animal thinks, but I know

1173
00:53:37,360 --> 00:53:40,280
that with a human being, if I was absolutely convinced

1174
00:53:40,400 --> 00:53:43,840
that this life is all there is, that there's nothing afterwards,

1175
00:53:43,880 --> 00:53:45,920
and that giving my life is giving up the only

1176
00:53:45,960 --> 00:53:48,039
thing I have, I don't see how I have any

1177
00:53:48,159 --> 00:53:50,840
justification to give my life to say, somebody else.

1178
00:53:50,639 --> 00:53:54,519
Speaker 1: Well, so they do that empathy atheists don't, right, And the.

1179
00:53:54,440 --> 00:53:56,440
Speaker 2: Other problem that you have not only is there an

1180
00:53:56,440 --> 00:53:59,800
empathy issue there, but when if you go and talk

1181
00:53:59,840 --> 00:54:02,880
to people who have risked their lives, with the exception

1182
00:54:03,000 --> 00:54:05,480
of first responders who trained for it and plan on

1183
00:54:05,519 --> 00:54:09,000
doing that, people who do it spontaneously, the first thing

1184
00:54:09,000 --> 00:54:10,639
out of their mouth is I didn't even think about

1185
00:54:10,639 --> 00:54:13,519
the RESK. I just went and did it. So in

1186
00:54:13,559 --> 00:54:17,039
those cases they're also not thinking. So again, the state

1187
00:54:17,079 --> 00:54:20,039
of mind doesn't make any difference. You're assuming that humans

1188
00:54:20,079 --> 00:54:22,880
reason all the time, and that's an assumption you really

1189
00:54:22,920 --> 00:54:28,079
shouldn't make because we're patterned recognition machines. We are not

1190
00:54:28,480 --> 00:54:30,559
logical engines by any stretchgy imagination.

1191
00:54:30,960 --> 00:54:33,400
Speaker 5: When I said survival of fitis I wasn't talking about

1192
00:54:33,440 --> 00:54:36,000
physical fitness. I was talking about the fact that the

1193
00:54:36,039 --> 00:54:39,639
whole concept of evolution is that the type of behavior

1194
00:54:39,960 --> 00:54:43,400
that dies out, that doesn't evolve its way through dies out.

1195
00:54:43,400 --> 00:54:45,159
And the part that doesn't die out is the part

1196
00:54:45,199 --> 00:54:48,000
that has survival value. But there is no survival value

1197
00:54:48,400 --> 00:54:49,280
to giving your life.

1198
00:54:49,360 --> 00:54:51,760
Speaker 1: Well, so I guess, yeah, yeah, there is because we

1199
00:54:51,800 --> 00:54:54,400
survive them as species, not as an individual, right.

1200
00:54:54,880 --> 00:54:58,360
Speaker 2: And we see that dogs will sacrifice their lives and

1201
00:54:58,480 --> 00:55:02,119
risk their lives to save humans and cheap and other dogs.

1202
00:55:02,159 --> 00:55:05,519
We see this in other We see this in behavior

1203
00:55:05,840 --> 00:55:09,000
in other animals. So to say this is exclusive to humans,

1204
00:55:09,519 --> 00:55:13,079
that's not the case. There is no behavior we humans

1205
00:55:13,199 --> 00:55:16,960
do that we don't also see in other animals to

1206
00:55:17,159 --> 00:55:18,599
one degree or another.

1207
00:55:18,800 --> 00:55:20,360
Speaker 5: Well that would be that would be a whole other

1208
00:55:20,360 --> 00:55:24,239
point that would take a while to follow through. But basically,

1209
00:55:24,320 --> 00:55:27,000
I think that whatever animals do or don't think, we

1210
00:55:27,079 --> 00:55:28,920
think we're capable of thinking.

1211
00:55:28,760 --> 00:55:30,880
Speaker 2: And we don't do it all the time. Yeah, we

1212
00:55:30,920 --> 00:55:35,239
don't think all the time, right, because we're pattern recognition engines, right,

1213
00:55:35,760 --> 00:55:41,320
So there's a part of our brain that does just that.

1214
00:55:41,440 --> 00:55:43,159
But when we actually try and think, what if I say,

1215
00:55:43,719 --> 00:55:46,559
back up, if I say two plus two equals and

1216
00:55:46,639 --> 00:55:49,159
you say four, you didn't do the math. Your brain

1217
00:55:49,280 --> 00:55:52,639
recognized the pattern and came up with the answer. Now,

1218
00:55:52,639 --> 00:55:56,480
if I say, what is five billion times three billion, well,

1219
00:55:56,639 --> 00:55:58,519
that's easier. You're still going to say fifteen billion because

1220
00:55:58,519 --> 00:56:01,519
you recognize that pattern. What's the square root of fifty

1221
00:56:01,559 --> 00:56:04,079
five and thirty two? Now you're going to actually have

1222
00:56:04,159 --> 00:56:06,760
to think about it. Thinking is a high energy thing,

1223
00:56:07,039 --> 00:56:10,239
which is why we don't always do it. And we

1224
00:56:10,400 --> 00:56:14,880
also know that humans will sacrifice themselves without thinking, because

1225
00:56:14,880 --> 00:56:17,800
we know this from people who have rescued others who

1226
00:56:17,800 --> 00:56:19,920
have come back and survived it and said, I didn't

1227
00:56:19,920 --> 00:56:23,239
even think about the danger. I just did it. So again,

1228
00:56:23,480 --> 00:56:26,280
the thought process has nothing to do with this, right.

1229
00:56:26,119 --> 00:56:28,320
Speaker 5: But I'm now talking about a situation where there is

1230
00:56:28,320 --> 00:56:30,440
a thought process where you're not doing something.

1231
00:56:30,239 --> 00:56:35,199
Speaker 8: In coolily Okay, the survival of the fittist can involve

1232
00:56:35,679 --> 00:56:38,559
being willing to give up oneself for survival of the species.

1233
00:56:38,599 --> 00:56:41,000
I say that makes no sense in an atheistic concept,

1234
00:56:41,159 --> 00:56:42,119
because sure does it.

1235
00:56:42,400 --> 00:56:47,679
Speaker 2: It's basic evolution. What are you talking about? It's basic evolution, dude?

1236
00:56:48,119 --> 00:56:52,199
Speaker 1: Yeah, are you telling me that the atheist? To be sure, Walter,

1237
00:56:52,880 --> 00:56:54,840
I would die for my child in a second. There's

1238
00:56:54,840 --> 00:56:57,880
nothing I wouldn't do for my child, Even if that

1239
00:56:57,960 --> 00:57:00,920
meant give in my life for my child, that directly

1240
00:57:01,039 --> 00:57:04,719
allows my child to continue living. When the parent has

1241
00:57:04,800 --> 00:57:07,639
that biological factor built in that allows them to self

1242
00:57:07,639 --> 00:57:10,760
sacrifice for their own children, it's wired into us because

1243
00:57:10,760 --> 00:57:11,639
it helps us survive.

1244
00:57:11,880 --> 00:57:14,559
Speaker 5: So you think that if you would sacrifice for your child,

1245
00:57:14,599 --> 00:57:16,119
it's just because it's wired into you.

1246
00:57:16,400 --> 00:57:17,920
Speaker 1: I think that's part of it. Yeah, I think a

1247
00:57:17,960 --> 00:57:20,599
lot of our behaviors are developed through evolution.

1248
00:57:21,000 --> 00:57:23,320
Speaker 5: But you don't think it's a moral thing. So let's say,

1249
00:57:23,320 --> 00:57:25,519
if you sacrifice yourself for your child and some other

1250
00:57:25,559 --> 00:57:27,880
father to forget it, I'll let the child go and

1251
00:57:27,599 --> 00:57:29,880
I'll look out for number one. You don't think your

1252
00:57:29,920 --> 00:57:32,360
behavior is more moral than that person's, well.

1253
00:57:32,320 --> 00:57:35,239
Speaker 1: I would subjectively disagree with them. I would say, I

1254
00:57:35,280 --> 00:57:37,559
don't agree with that opinion, but I don't believe in

1255
00:57:37,599 --> 00:57:40,519
objective morals, which is actually the end point of the

1256
00:57:40,559 --> 00:57:42,960
conversation you want to get to. You want to use CS.

1257
00:57:43,079 --> 00:57:45,880
Lewis's argument for objective morals, but I know for a

1258
00:57:45,920 --> 00:57:48,480
fact that you can't demonstrate that objective morals exist.

1259
00:57:48,800 --> 00:57:50,880
Speaker 5: Then, so when you say that you would in a

1260
00:57:50,880 --> 00:57:53,960
second give your life for your child, that's not objectively right.

1261
00:57:53,960 --> 00:57:55,400
That just happens to be your choice.

1262
00:57:55,440 --> 00:57:56,320
Speaker 1: That's my decision.

1263
00:57:58,079 --> 00:58:01,400
Speaker 2: It's a behavior we call moral, right, there's no such

1264
00:58:01,440 --> 00:58:05,360
thing as morals. There's behavior we call moral, and there's

1265
00:58:05,400 --> 00:58:09,039
behavior we call immoral. But it's just behavior. Because as

1266
00:58:09,079 --> 00:58:12,039
soon as you take that behavior, that willingness for a

1267
00:58:12,119 --> 00:58:14,519
parent to sacrifice as child, and we apply it to

1268
00:58:14,599 --> 00:58:17,599
any other animal that does the same thing, you're going

1269
00:58:17,679 --> 00:58:20,960
to say that doesn't count. And the only difference is

1270
00:58:21,159 --> 00:58:24,880
humans doing it versus animals doing it, And so that's

1271
00:58:24,960 --> 00:58:26,039
the exception you're making.

1272
00:58:26,320 --> 00:58:28,280
Speaker 5: I think the difference is that animals are doing it

1273
00:58:28,320 --> 00:58:31,039
by instinct and human beings are making a choice.

1274
00:58:31,159 --> 00:58:34,960
Speaker 2: Well, again, you made that point before, and I've already

1275
00:58:35,039 --> 00:58:38,840
beaten that point to death right. Not everybody thinks and

1276
00:58:38,920 --> 00:58:41,639
mental states don't matter. What matters is to behavior.

1277
00:58:41,800 --> 00:58:46,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's clearly a combination of like evolutionary instincts and

1278
00:58:46,440 --> 00:58:49,199
maybe a little bit of thought processing. But for most people,

1279
00:58:49,559 --> 00:58:51,559
I wouldn't I wouldn't think about it, Like if my

1280
00:58:51,639 --> 00:58:54,239
child was in danger, I wouldn't be thinking, oh, should

1281
00:58:54,239 --> 00:58:55,840
I do this thing for my child? No, I'm just

1282
00:58:55,880 --> 00:58:57,559
going to go do it. It's just wired into me.

1283
00:58:57,840 --> 00:59:00,199
Not everybody has that, by the way, but I know

1284
00:59:00,239 --> 00:59:02,239
that I do. But let me ask you a better question,

1285
00:59:02,280 --> 00:59:04,239
because I feel like we're going round and round on

1286
00:59:04,280 --> 00:59:06,199
this particular point and I don't think it's going to

1287
00:59:06,360 --> 00:59:09,159
lead us anywhere. Walter, do you have an argument that

1288
00:59:09,199 --> 00:59:11,719
would end in morals being objective?

1289
00:59:12,480 --> 00:59:14,039
Speaker 5: I would Yeah, I could say yes to that.

1290
00:59:14,119 --> 00:59:15,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'd love to hear the argument.

1291
00:59:16,039 --> 00:59:18,280
Speaker 5: Well, I think he presents the argument. Again. I just

1292
00:59:18,280 --> 00:59:20,679
think he does it. I can do it fairly well,

1293
00:59:20,679 --> 00:59:22,280
but I think he does it a lot better. He

1294
00:59:22,360 --> 00:59:25,119
presents the argument that we all, you know, have a

1295
00:59:25,199 --> 00:59:27,519
sense of of some kind of a moral law because

1296
00:59:27,559 --> 00:59:30,800
we hold each other accountable, and we don't then say,

1297
00:59:30,880 --> 00:59:33,199
oh to hell with your moral law. You know, we

1298
00:59:33,519 --> 00:59:36,360
say that wasn't fair, you cheated, that wasn't right, Why

1299
00:59:36,360 --> 00:59:38,159
did you take my seat? Why did you step on

1300
00:59:38,239 --> 00:59:38,679
my foot?

1301
00:59:38,880 --> 00:59:42,039
Speaker 1: And we with objective morals?

1302
00:59:42,159 --> 00:59:44,559
Speaker 5: Yeah, in in other words, it's objective. And he even

1303
00:59:44,599 --> 00:59:46,760
points out in the book that if I step on

1304
00:59:46,880 --> 00:59:49,360
if I step on your toe accidentally, you're going to

1305
00:59:49,400 --> 00:59:51,960
make allowance for that. But if I it's very different

1306
00:59:51,960 --> 00:59:53,679
than if I step on your toe deliberately.

1307
00:59:53,880 --> 00:59:57,639
Speaker 1: And so we know what about that requires objective morals?

1308
00:59:57,760 --> 00:59:58,519
That's what I'm asking.

1309
00:59:58,760 --> 00:59:59,599
Speaker 5: What about the what?

1310
00:59:59,599 --> 01:00:02,440
Speaker 1: What about any of that requires objective morals to exist?

1311
01:00:02,559 --> 01:00:05,559
Speaker 5: Oh, because we all have a sense that that's right

1312
01:00:05,599 --> 01:00:08,159
and that's wrong, and it's not. It's not just purely subjective.

1313
01:00:08,159 --> 01:00:12,039
Speaker 1: We don't, you know objective, it's entirely subjective.

1314
01:00:12,599 --> 01:00:14,960
Speaker 2: Have you ever watched dogs at play? And I have

1315
01:00:15,039 --> 01:00:18,639
ever noticed that when a dog accidentally does something to

1316
01:00:18,719 --> 01:00:21,639
cause harm to another dog that they apology, That there's

1317
01:00:21,679 --> 01:00:23,719
behavior that is apologetic.

1318
01:00:23,960 --> 01:00:27,480
Speaker 5: Well, I see behavior that answer morphively looks apologetic.

1319
01:00:27,800 --> 01:00:30,719
Speaker 2: No, it is, it is apologetic. Go talk to a

1320
01:00:30,719 --> 01:00:33,960
dog behavior, so they'll tell you it's apologetic. They're apologizing

1321
01:00:34,519 --> 01:00:36,599
or making sure the other dog knows it's an accident.

1322
01:00:37,320 --> 01:00:38,519
Horses do the same thing.

1323
01:00:38,880 --> 01:00:41,480
Speaker 5: But you're just observing behavior. But you can't you're not

1324
01:00:41,559 --> 01:00:43,280
a dog. But you don't know how they realize.

1325
01:00:43,239 --> 01:00:47,719
Speaker 2: That's that's entirely my point. The behavior is what we

1326
01:00:47,840 --> 01:00:50,559
call moral. There are no there's nothing as moral, there's

1327
01:00:50,559 --> 01:00:53,480
only behavior. Right, you're making this, you're cutting out the

1328
01:00:53,559 --> 01:00:57,800
special case for humans that humans are doing something and

1329
01:00:58,440 --> 01:01:02,519
but animals do it too, So you're not You can't

1330
01:01:02,599 --> 01:01:06,559
carve out there's moral, these objective morals that humans do

1331
01:01:07,159 --> 01:01:10,800
without also addressing the same behavior and other animals.

1332
01:01:11,039 --> 01:01:14,400
Speaker 5: Well, I guess I'll just ask you one question. Maybe

1333
01:01:14,400 --> 01:01:16,320
you don't have the same answer, but to both of

1334
01:01:16,360 --> 01:01:18,639
you believe that morals are completely subjective.

1335
01:01:18,800 --> 01:01:22,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, yes, until someone can demonstrate that they that they're objective.

1336
01:01:22,440 --> 01:01:25,920
That's just this default position. The default position is that

1337
01:01:25,960 --> 01:01:27,800
they're subjective until proven otherwise.

1338
01:01:28,239 --> 01:01:29,960
Speaker 5: So here's the thing. When you just said a few

1339
01:01:30,000 --> 01:01:32,519
minutes ago that you know you would, you know in

1340
01:01:32,519 --> 01:01:34,480
a second, you'd give your life for your child. I

1341
01:01:35,000 --> 01:01:37,639
wanted to say, well, I commend that, I really approve

1342
01:01:37,719 --> 01:01:40,119
of that. But if someone else said, well I don't

1343
01:01:40,119 --> 01:01:42,800
think that at all, I'd easily give up my child,

1344
01:01:42,840 --> 01:01:44,599
I'd say, well I don't approve of that. Now. Is

1345
01:01:44,639 --> 01:01:46,079
that purely a value judgment?

1346
01:01:46,599 --> 01:01:49,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's my opinion. That's why morals are subjective because

1347
01:01:49,480 --> 01:01:53,159
we can't agree on what is properly moral as a species.

1348
01:01:53,320 --> 01:01:57,440
For example, almost all of human history, mankind and their

1349
01:01:57,480 --> 01:02:01,159
gods were okay with slavery. And now we're not your god.

1350
01:02:01,199 --> 01:02:04,239
The god in your book said to do slavery, said

1351
01:02:04,480 --> 01:02:06,800
that women would be permanent slaves, that you can make

1352
01:02:06,840 --> 01:02:10,039
slaves of the Heathen nations around you, but we agree

1353
01:02:10,079 --> 01:02:13,760
now that that's not something we should be doing. So

1354
01:02:13,960 --> 01:02:17,639
that tells me that morals are in fact subjective, because

1355
01:02:17,760 --> 01:02:20,280
people back then didn't see the problem, but we see

1356
01:02:20,280 --> 01:02:20,679
it now.

1357
01:02:20,960 --> 01:02:23,800
Speaker 5: Right, Except God never commands slavery. He regulates it.

1358
01:02:23,880 --> 01:02:26,079
Speaker 1: No, he commands it. Want me to show you where

1359
01:02:27,000 --> 01:02:29,119
I will never understand why pastors gont appear in lie

1360
01:02:29,119 --> 01:02:31,119
on their own book. When a man sells his daughter

1361
01:02:31,199 --> 01:02:33,280
as a slave, she shall not go out as the

1362
01:02:33,280 --> 01:02:37,800
male slaves do. This is preceded by a passage. This

1363
01:02:37,920 --> 01:02:41,639
is preceded by a passage about male Hebrew slaves.

1364
01:02:41,679 --> 01:02:41,960
Speaker 2: Is it not?

1365
01:02:42,280 --> 01:02:45,159
Speaker 5: Didn't it start by saying, when a man sells his daughter?

1366
01:02:45,199 --> 01:02:45,880
Is that what you said?

1367
01:02:46,400 --> 01:02:49,519
Speaker 1: When a man sells his daughter as a slave, and

1368
01:02:49,559 --> 01:02:54,400
then the clause she shall not go out as the

1369
01:02:54,480 --> 01:02:57,119
male slaves do. So God could have said, when a

1370
01:02:57,119 --> 01:02:59,880
man sells his daughter as a slave, she goes free,

1371
01:02:59,880 --> 01:03:02,239
the same as the male slaves do. He didn't say that.

1372
01:03:02,440 --> 01:03:05,559
He says, when a man sells his daughter, she doesn't

1373
01:03:05,599 --> 01:03:06,320
go free.

1374
01:03:06,440 --> 01:03:08,800
Speaker 5: But what I'm saying is regardless of the male female,

1375
01:03:08,800 --> 01:03:11,480
that's the whole other subject. But God doesn't say you

1376
01:03:11,559 --> 01:03:14,039
shall have slaves, he says, while you're.

1377
01:03:13,840 --> 01:03:18,760
Speaker 1: Happy, I didn't say he commanded you that you had

1378
01:03:18,760 --> 01:03:21,800
to have slaves. That's entirely not what my claim was.

1379
01:03:22,639 --> 01:03:25,360
The God in your book does in fact instruct you

1380
01:03:25,760 --> 01:03:28,239
to make slaves, though, and the way that you do

1381
01:03:28,360 --> 01:03:30,880
it is by telling him, when you sell your daughter

1382
01:03:30,880 --> 01:03:34,079
as a slave, make her a permanent slave. That's God

1383
01:03:34,119 --> 01:03:38,239
instructing to make slaves. Same thing with the chapter verse four.

1384
01:03:38,239 --> 01:03:40,039
In the same chapter, he says, if a master gives

1385
01:03:40,119 --> 01:03:42,559
him a wife, referring to the Hebrew, if a master

1386
01:03:42,679 --> 01:03:45,079
gives him a wife and she bears some sons or daughters,

1387
01:03:45,079 --> 01:03:47,440
the wife and her children shall be her master's, and

1388
01:03:47,480 --> 01:03:50,159
he shall go it alone. But if the slave declares,

1389
01:03:50,199 --> 01:03:51,760
I love my master, so on and so forth. So

1390
01:03:52,039 --> 01:03:55,320
in verse four he literally saying, if a hebrew man

1391
01:03:55,400 --> 01:03:58,960
comes in and you give him a wife while he's enslaved,

1392
01:03:59,119 --> 01:04:01,559
and then he leaves, he doesn't get to take those

1393
01:04:01,599 --> 01:04:04,679
kids with them or the woman. There's still property. There's

1394
01:04:04,679 --> 01:04:07,480
still property forever of the owner. He couldn't he could

1395
01:04:07,519 --> 01:04:09,599
have said anything else. He could have said no, no, no, no,

1396
01:04:09,840 --> 01:04:12,119
treat them the same way you would a Hebrew male.

1397
01:04:12,199 --> 01:04:14,199
Let him go free. But he didn't say that. He

1398
01:04:14,239 --> 01:04:15,519
said to do the opposite of that.

1399
01:04:15,679 --> 01:04:17,920
Speaker 5: But all My only point was that God is not

1400
01:04:18,000 --> 01:04:20,880
at any at any point commanding slavery. He's regulating and

1401
01:04:21,320 --> 01:04:21,920
the institution.

1402
01:04:22,239 --> 01:04:23,199
Speaker 1: No, he commanded it.

1403
01:04:24,000 --> 01:04:26,719
Speaker 2: Why would God allow something that's evil? Why would God

1404
01:04:26,719 --> 01:04:27,760
allow something that's evil.

1405
01:04:28,400 --> 01:04:30,760
Speaker 5: He didn't allow something that's evil. He wouldn't have created

1406
01:04:30,800 --> 01:04:32,159
free will, and he wouldn't have created us.

1407
01:04:32,280 --> 01:04:35,880
Speaker 2: No, we have laws. So you're saying that the laws

1408
01:04:35,920 --> 01:04:39,159
we have against slavery violate free will?

1409
01:04:39,440 --> 01:04:43,159
Speaker 1: No, oh shit, we're violating free will right now. I didn't.

1410
01:04:44,519 --> 01:04:47,760
Speaker 2: He just said no. So why couldn't God have just said,

1411
01:04:47,800 --> 01:04:51,239
dona slaves as a law instead of making laws about

1412
01:04:51,239 --> 01:04:54,159
how to regulate slavery. And yes, it's chattle slavery if

1413
01:04:54,159 --> 01:04:55,559
you're going to go there, don't.

1414
01:04:56,960 --> 01:04:59,559
Speaker 5: I guess you know. God could have had a law

1415
01:04:59,559 --> 01:05:02,679
about us to everything. But instead he regulated the human

1416
01:05:02,719 --> 01:05:03,400
condition at all.

1417
01:05:03,440 --> 01:05:06,920
Speaker 1: Wrong, He didn't regulate it. What did he regulate? Name

1418
01:05:07,000 --> 01:05:10,199
one thing he said that you can't do that they

1419
01:05:10,199 --> 01:05:12,960
would have been doing otherwise in regards to slavery.

1420
01:05:13,079 --> 01:05:14,559
Speaker 5: That's the verse. And you didn't give me the verse,

1421
01:05:14,599 --> 01:05:16,039
so I didn't I didn't find it.

1422
01:05:16,079 --> 01:05:18,119
Speaker 2: But twenty one four.

1423
01:05:18,280 --> 01:05:20,760
Speaker 1: You're a pastor, you should know. If you don't know

1424
01:05:20,760 --> 01:05:22,519
who this is, you're not. You shouldn't have been in

1425
01:05:22,719 --> 01:05:23,199
the pulpit.

1426
01:05:24,360 --> 01:05:27,239
Speaker 5: You just so diverse. There a few pastors on earth

1427
01:05:27,239 --> 01:05:29,039
that can take any verse and tell you exactly where

1428
01:05:29,079 --> 01:05:30,599
it came from without you giving me a reference.

1429
01:05:30,679 --> 01:05:32,920
Speaker 1: I tell you should be a pretty damn sure at

1430
01:05:33,000 --> 01:05:36,679
least what chapter it came from your pastor. Slavery comes up,

1431
01:05:36,800 --> 01:05:39,440
you're going to get asked, well, you know you can.

1432
01:05:39,480 --> 01:05:41,320
Speaker 5: You can go that route if you want. But the

1433
01:05:41,360 --> 01:05:43,480
fact is, when you start a sentence with when a

1434
01:05:43,519 --> 01:05:47,000
man sells his daughter, God is not commanding anything. He's saying,

1435
01:05:47,039 --> 01:05:48,559
there's this thing that's already happening.

1436
01:05:48,599 --> 01:05:53,400
Speaker 2: I'm right, And you've already said that slavery doesn't violate

1437
01:05:53,440 --> 01:05:55,719
free will, and God could have created a log against slavery,

1438
01:05:56,039 --> 01:05:58,880
and here he's giving a law on what to do

1439
01:05:58,920 --> 01:06:00,000
with Slavs.

1440
01:06:00,000 --> 01:06:02,719
Speaker 1: So just to be clear, in the context we're speaking

1441
01:06:02,760 --> 01:06:05,679
of a slave is somebody who doesn't go free and

1442
01:06:05,920 --> 01:06:09,360
an indentured servant gets to go free. Right, that's correct? Yeah, Okay,

1443
01:06:09,599 --> 01:06:12,280
so when he says when a man sells his daughter

1444
01:06:12,360 --> 01:06:15,039
as a slave, her default position, if she's a Hebrew,

1445
01:06:15,119 --> 01:06:18,400
is already as an indentured servant. So the next thing

1446
01:06:18,480 --> 01:06:21,880
he says is she shall not go out as the

1447
01:06:21,920 --> 01:06:25,400
male slaves do. That they command to take her from

1448
01:06:25,440 --> 01:06:29,639
indentured servant to a slave. God's command is to not

1449
01:06:29,920 --> 01:06:32,679
let her be an indentured servant, make her a slave.

1450
01:06:32,920 --> 01:06:35,599
Speaker 5: I'd have to look at that more closely, especially because

1451
01:06:35,639 --> 01:06:36,239
I don't I still have.

1452
01:06:36,280 --> 01:06:39,119
Speaker 1: The reference, which is I just told you Exced twenty

1453
01:06:39,159 --> 01:06:41,079
one seven. And then he goes on in the same

1454
01:06:41,159 --> 01:06:43,880
chapter and says, you can beat your slaves so severely

1455
01:06:43,960 --> 01:06:46,639
that if they accidentally die a couple of days later,

1456
01:06:46,920 --> 01:06:48,239
you're not going to get punished for it.

1457
01:06:48,800 --> 01:06:51,280
Speaker 2: And some versions of that translation say for they are

1458
01:06:51,400 --> 01:06:55,639
your property, and other translations say for they are your money.

1459
01:06:55,880 --> 01:06:57,880
I like see, because they are your money one rather

1460
01:06:57,920 --> 01:06:58,800
than the property one.

1461
01:06:58,880 --> 01:07:02,400
Speaker 1: But that is literal is cussif in Hebrew, which just

1462
01:07:02,480 --> 01:07:03,639
means silver or money.

1463
01:07:03,960 --> 01:07:07,119
Speaker 2: Oh wow, So okay, so the correct translation is they

1464
01:07:07,119 --> 01:07:10,599
are your money. Excellent, because that's my favorite interpretation because

1465
01:07:10,639 --> 01:07:12,880
it makes it really, really clear that that slaves are

1466
01:07:12,960 --> 01:07:13,760
chattel slavery.

1467
01:07:13,960 --> 01:07:17,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, he commands the Israelites in Levitica's twenty five not

1468
01:07:17,880 --> 01:07:21,320
to make slaves of their own Hebrew male brethren. Why

1469
01:07:21,320 --> 01:07:24,519
couldn't he have made the same claim for non Hebrews.

1470
01:07:24,719 --> 01:07:26,960
Speaker 5: But let me ask you a question. So you're asking

1471
01:07:27,039 --> 01:07:28,079
why God is doing it?

1472
01:07:28,119 --> 01:07:30,239
Speaker 1: Crazy that you think you're going to ask You're going

1473
01:07:30,320 --> 01:07:33,079
to answer a question with a question. Listen, you can

1474
01:07:33,159 --> 01:07:36,320
ask whatever you question you want to after you answer mine.

1475
01:07:36,639 --> 01:07:40,760
In Levitica's twenty nine thirty nine through thirty nine through

1476
01:07:41,079 --> 01:07:45,480
forty three, he explicitly tells the Israelites not to make

1477
01:07:45,559 --> 01:07:49,559
slaves permanently of your own Hebrew brethren and to let

1478
01:07:50,039 --> 01:07:52,320
let them go free at the year of Jubilee, only

1479
01:07:52,360 --> 01:07:55,280
the only the men, and only the Hebrews. And then

1480
01:07:55,360 --> 01:07:57,480
he goes on and says, you can make permanent slaves

1481
01:07:57,480 --> 01:08:01,280
of the foreigners. So he's already laying down rules saying,

1482
01:08:01,320 --> 01:08:05,000
don't enslave these people. Then he says, but you can't

1483
01:08:05,079 --> 01:08:08,719
enslave these people. What was preventing them from just saying, hey, listen,

1484
01:08:08,800 --> 01:08:11,360
treat everybody the same way you would treat a Hebrew male.

1485
01:08:11,679 --> 01:08:14,960
Don't enslave them. Perpetually let them serve for seven years

1486
01:08:14,960 --> 01:08:15,880
and then then go free.

1487
01:08:16,439 --> 01:08:18,680
Speaker 5: He was making a distinction between the way he treated

1488
01:08:18,880 --> 01:08:20,600
the Hebrews and the way he treated others because they

1489
01:08:20,640 --> 01:08:21,560
were his chosen people.

1490
01:08:21,720 --> 01:08:24,439
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, they were his slaves. He says in Livica

1491
01:08:24,479 --> 01:08:27,479
twenty five. You won't make your own Hebrew brethren your slaves,

1492
01:08:27,520 --> 01:08:30,319
because they are my slaves who I brought out of Egypt.

1493
01:08:30,479 --> 01:08:33,960
So God's jealous someone's taking his slaves. This is the

1494
01:08:34,039 --> 01:08:36,560
property to dispute. That's all it is. He doesn't care

1495
01:08:36,600 --> 01:08:39,039
if the Israelites own other people as slaves.

1496
01:08:39,600 --> 01:08:42,439
Speaker 5: Here's an interesting thing. You're saying that morals are relative,

1497
01:08:42,600 --> 01:08:45,520
that morals are subjective, but that you're making moral judgments

1498
01:08:45,520 --> 01:08:47,319
about God and saying God things.

1499
01:08:47,119 --> 01:08:50,159
Speaker 1: That we're there, we go, We finally got there. I

1500
01:08:50,239 --> 01:08:52,680
knew you'd figure it out, Walter, Thank you. So this

1501
01:08:52,720 --> 01:08:55,039
is called an internal critique, right. We start with the

1502
01:08:55,039 --> 01:08:58,479
fact that you think slavery is wrong and you think

1503
01:08:58,600 --> 01:09:02,399
morals are objective. I started this conversation by saying that

1504
01:09:02,600 --> 01:09:05,479
morals are subjective. I'm sorry you think they're objective. I

1505
01:09:05,479 --> 01:09:08,359
think they're subjective. And the proof that they're subjective is

1506
01:09:08,359 --> 01:09:11,520
that people back then thought that slavery was chill, and

1507
01:09:11,560 --> 01:09:15,039
people today don't think that slavery is chill. I'm on

1508
01:09:15,119 --> 01:09:17,319
the side that doesn't think that slavery is chill, which

1509
01:09:17,359 --> 01:09:22,159
proves morals are subjective, not objective. But if they are objective,

1510
01:09:22,600 --> 01:09:25,880
you've got a problem. Because your God said to do slavery,

1511
01:09:26,159 --> 01:09:28,840
and you think slavery is wrong, that you left.

1512
01:09:28,680 --> 01:09:29,840
Speaker 5: Out another possibility.

1513
01:09:29,960 --> 01:09:30,600
Speaker 1: I'm all yours.

1514
01:09:30,680 --> 01:09:33,520
Speaker 5: Okay. You know the thing is, I'm watching this on

1515
01:09:33,560 --> 01:09:35,159
YouTube and a there's a delay, so I've got the

1516
01:09:35,279 --> 01:09:38,119
sound down, but I'm watching you, but you're you're you're

1517
01:09:38,159 --> 01:09:41,680
not speaking in terms of the words. The other reason

1518
01:09:41,720 --> 01:09:44,359
to look at it is that slavery. I'm against slavery,

1519
01:09:44,479 --> 01:09:46,960
but I'm not against it for moral reasons. I'm against

1520
01:09:47,000 --> 01:09:48,640
it for technologtical reasons.

1521
01:09:48,720 --> 01:09:51,039
Speaker 1: So you don't think that slavery was morally wrong.

1522
01:09:51,279 --> 01:09:54,760
Speaker 5: I don't think it was ever morally wrong, But I

1523
01:09:54,760 --> 01:09:56,600
I think that I think. You know what I think

1524
01:09:56,680 --> 01:09:59,800
was that was the ultimate cause of the downfall of slavery,

1525
01:10:00,079 --> 01:10:06,279
invention of the printing press.

1526
01:10:06,159 --> 01:10:10,479
Speaker 1: To the printing press. Part of me I thought it

1527
01:10:10,520 --> 01:10:13,079
was the motherfuckers out here trying to end it. That's

1528
01:10:13,079 --> 01:10:15,760
what I thought. It was all along als we needed

1529
01:10:15,800 --> 01:10:18,720
with the printing press. That's crazy, very simple.

1530
01:10:18,840 --> 01:10:22,479
Speaker 6: I's got a world where where there's a happen because

1531
01:10:22,479 --> 01:10:24,760
some people read, some people can't, you're going to have

1532
01:10:24,760 --> 01:10:27,479
a slave class. But when you have to, everybody has

1533
01:10:27,479 --> 01:10:31,399
the ability to read, and to you, that's a leveling process.

1534
01:10:31,439 --> 01:10:34,399
I think that the printing press was an inherent leveling process,

1535
01:10:34,479 --> 01:10:36,359
and it just took a while to catch up and

1536
01:10:36,399 --> 01:10:37,920
give us the abolitionary Yeah.

1537
01:10:38,000 --> 01:10:41,840
Speaker 1: England before Yeah, because everyone could read. Yeah, that's what happened.

1538
01:10:42,600 --> 01:10:45,800
Speaker 2: When you're making a moral argument now, right, because you're

1539
01:10:45,840 --> 01:10:49,199
still saying that slavery was wrong, and you're just saying

1540
01:10:49,199 --> 01:10:52,319
that we had slavery because education was different back then

1541
01:10:52,399 --> 01:10:56,239
than it is now, and so now now it's so

1542
01:10:56,399 --> 01:10:59,680
moral to you enslave educated people.

1543
01:10:59,880 --> 01:11:01,199
Speaker 5: I'm not saying it was ever wrong.

1544
01:11:01,880 --> 01:11:04,239
Speaker 2: You're saying it's wrong now. That's what that's my point is,

1545
01:11:04,560 --> 01:11:05,960
you are, in fact saying a trunk.

1546
01:11:06,159 --> 01:11:08,880
Speaker 5: I'm saying it's pragmatically and expedient. That's why I'm all

1547
01:11:08,920 --> 01:11:11,279
in favor of abolition. I'm glad we had it magic for.

1548
01:11:11,479 --> 01:11:14,039
Speaker 2: Right, So if so, we should go and find people

1549
01:11:14,079 --> 01:11:17,199
on the planet who are uneducated and enslaved them. That

1550
01:11:17,199 --> 01:11:18,840
you're saying that is okay Now, I.

1551
01:11:18,840 --> 01:11:20,840
Speaker 5: Think it's much better to teach them to read instead

1552
01:11:21,000 --> 01:11:22,359
and let them use the printy.

1553
01:11:22,399 --> 01:11:24,760
Speaker 1: Well, why would it be wrong in your world view?

1554
01:11:24,800 --> 01:11:26,279
Would it be wrong if we own slaves.

1555
01:11:27,039 --> 01:11:29,000
Speaker 5: I don't think it's morally wrong. I just I just

1556
01:11:29,039 --> 01:11:31,640
think it's I don't think it's necessary, and I'm in

1557
01:11:31,680 --> 01:11:33,720
favor of having legislation against.

1558
01:11:33,439 --> 01:11:36,720
Speaker 1: It because everything that God commands is because everything that

1559
01:11:36,760 --> 01:11:38,600
God commands is permissible, right.

1560
01:11:38,479 --> 01:11:40,600
Speaker 5: Everything that God commands is permissibly yet right?

1561
01:11:40,680 --> 01:11:44,279
Speaker 1: Yeah, So like if God said, like, you can go

1562
01:11:44,520 --> 01:11:47,199
and execute these infants, it would be good to a

1563
01:11:47,279 --> 01:11:47,720
big God.

1564
01:11:48,119 --> 01:11:50,000
Speaker 5: I don't believe he would, But yeah, I didn't.

1565
01:11:50,000 --> 01:11:51,439
Speaker 1: I didn't ask you if you would. First of all,

1566
01:11:51,479 --> 01:11:54,439
we know he would. First Samuel fifteen three says so dudeemy.

1567
01:11:54,520 --> 01:11:55,800
Chapter twelve says so as well.

1568
01:11:55,960 --> 01:11:56,199
Speaker 2: Uh.

1569
01:11:56,279 --> 01:11:58,520
Speaker 1: Chapter twenty I'm sorry says so as well, So we

1570
01:11:58,560 --> 01:12:01,479
know he would. Okay, So if God did tell you,

1571
01:12:01,600 --> 01:12:04,119
then he said, Walter, I needed to go and burn

1572
01:12:04,159 --> 01:12:06,600
down this orphanage over here. It would be good to

1573
01:12:06,640 --> 01:12:07,239
obey God.

1574
01:12:07,560 --> 01:12:09,439
Speaker 5: He wouldn't, but yes, it would be good if he did.

1575
01:12:09,479 --> 01:12:12,720
Speaker 1: Okay, And if God said, Walter, I need you before

1576
01:12:12,720 --> 01:12:14,960
you burn down the orphanage, to take the children out

1577
01:12:14,960 --> 01:12:17,399
of the orphanage, put them through a meat grinder, and

1578
01:12:17,439 --> 01:12:21,279
make yourself some nice burger patties for dinner, that would

1579
01:12:21,279 --> 01:12:22,079
be the right thing to do.

1580
01:12:22,439 --> 01:12:24,359
Speaker 5: No, he wouldn't say that, because that would.

1581
01:12:24,800 --> 01:12:27,319
Speaker 1: I didn't say say he would. I said if he did,

1582
01:12:27,319 --> 01:12:28,439
would it be the right thing to do.

1583
01:12:29,199 --> 01:12:31,680
Speaker 5: You're trying to make me a theological voluntarist and I'm not.

1584
01:12:32,000 --> 01:12:34,920
Speaker 1: No, No, I'm not. I'm saying, if God in fact

1585
01:12:35,000 --> 01:12:37,560
command you to do something, would it be good to obey?

1586
01:12:37,880 --> 01:12:39,960
Because in your world view, there's no limit. If God

1587
01:12:39,960 --> 01:12:42,720
told you to do anything, it's always good to obey,

1588
01:12:42,760 --> 01:12:43,119
isn't it.

1589
01:12:43,239 --> 01:12:45,279
Speaker 5: If God told me to do something, he'd do it.

1590
01:12:45,399 --> 01:12:47,199
He tell me to do it because it's in accordance

1591
01:12:47,239 --> 01:12:49,119
with his nature, which is good, So it.

1592
01:12:49,119 --> 01:12:51,840
Speaker 1: Would be good to obey him and make baby burger patties.

1593
01:12:51,920 --> 01:12:54,359
Speaker 5: Right, he wouldn't do that. That opposes everything.

1594
01:12:54,399 --> 01:12:56,560
Speaker 1: And ask if he would. I never asked if he would.

1595
01:12:56,600 --> 01:12:57,399
I said if he did.

1596
01:12:57,800 --> 01:13:01,199
Speaker 5: I think that's a question like plus two equal five.

1597
01:13:01,239 --> 01:13:01,720
I think it's.

1598
01:13:02,399 --> 01:13:06,039
Speaker 1: Walter, it's not because God tells the Israelite he's going

1599
01:13:06,119 --> 01:13:08,239
to cause them to cannibalize their own children. He says

1600
01:13:08,239 --> 01:13:10,199
it on three different occasions, and he makes it happen.

1601
01:13:10,279 --> 01:13:13,600
Is recorded lamentations, then, Jeremiah, So God will absolutely make

1602
01:13:13,640 --> 01:13:17,319
you make baby burger patties. I'm asking you if God,

1603
01:13:17,680 --> 01:13:20,199
if God commands you to make the baby burger patties,

1604
01:13:20,239 --> 01:13:21,239
would it be good to do it?

1605
01:13:21,399 --> 01:13:24,520
Speaker 5: That's the allowance thing. Again, he never commands them to cannibalize.

1606
01:13:24,680 --> 01:13:28,119
Speaker 1: Try try, Walter, focus. I know you're terrified of answering

1607
01:13:28,119 --> 01:13:30,840
the question, but try to stand track. If God told

1608
01:13:30,880 --> 01:13:33,079
you to make baby burger patties, would it be right

1609
01:13:33,279 --> 01:13:33,760
to do it?

1610
01:13:33,920 --> 01:13:35,720
Speaker 5: You wouldn't do it. I can't answer the question.

1611
01:13:35,920 --> 01:13:38,239
Speaker 1: I again, I didn't ask you if he would. It's

1612
01:13:38,279 --> 01:13:41,560
a hypothetical. All of a sudden, you're real sheepish about hypotheticals.

1613
01:13:41,640 --> 01:13:45,319
If God told you to make the baby burger patties, logically,

1614
01:13:46,159 --> 01:13:48,600
is it entailed that we would be good to obey.

1615
01:13:48,920 --> 01:13:51,159
Speaker 5: You don't want me to answer a question with a question.

1616
01:13:51,000 --> 01:13:53,319
Speaker 1: But if you can answer yes or no, it's a

1617
01:13:53,399 --> 01:13:55,359
yes or no. I need a yes or no out

1618
01:13:55,359 --> 01:13:57,520
of you. Let me actually, let me, let me try.

1619
01:13:57,640 --> 01:14:00,159
Let me try it with Jim. Jim. If God told

1620
01:14:00,199 --> 01:14:02,159
you to make baby burger patties, do you think it

1621
01:14:02,159 --> 01:14:02,960
would be good to do?

1622
01:14:03,279 --> 01:14:07,680
Speaker 2: Absolutely? No way under anything. Yeah, would be good to

1623
01:14:07,760 --> 01:14:08,199
do that.

1624
01:14:08,399 --> 01:14:11,159
Speaker 1: That was easy because he got subjective morals. He doesn't

1625
01:14:11,199 --> 01:14:13,760
have divine command theory. You've got divine command theory. So

1626
01:14:13,840 --> 01:14:16,399
we'll try this again. If God told you to make

1627
01:14:16,439 --> 01:14:19,199
baby burger patties, would it be right to obey him?

1628
01:14:19,279 --> 01:14:21,359
Speaker 5: It's a non question, so I can't answer it.

1629
01:14:21,359 --> 01:14:23,880
Speaker 1: It is a it's a real question. You can't answer it.

1630
01:14:23,960 --> 01:14:25,640
We need to take your tail out from between your

1631
01:14:25,720 --> 01:14:28,880
legs and grow a backbone. Be a man now and

1632
01:14:28,920 --> 01:14:31,520
answer the question if God told you to make baby

1633
01:14:31,520 --> 01:14:34,600
burger patties. If God told you to make baby burger patties,

1634
01:14:34,600 --> 01:14:35,880
would it be right to obey him?

1635
01:14:36,079 --> 01:14:38,840
Speaker 5: You usually stoop to insulting when your logic gets weak.

1636
01:14:39,000 --> 01:14:42,960
Speaker 1: He can't, he can't help himself. He's terrified. He's terrified

1637
01:14:42,960 --> 01:14:44,000
of a hypothetical.

1638
01:14:44,239 --> 01:14:46,760
Speaker 2: And I don't understand why he's terrified. It's not like

1639
01:14:46,800 --> 01:14:48,199
you're laying a trap for him.

1640
01:14:48,479 --> 01:14:50,600
Speaker 1: I'm certainly not laying a trap for him. I'm just

1641
01:14:50,640 --> 01:14:54,000
showing him the logical conclusion of divine command theory. That's it.

1642
01:14:54,239 --> 01:14:58,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, that is the logical conclusion that you're and you're assuming.

1643
01:14:58,399 --> 01:15:01,399
So you're making a couple of of assumptions here, because

1644
01:15:02,199 --> 01:15:05,600
unless you're going to say that when God flooded the

1645
01:15:05,640 --> 01:15:12,239
planet that babies didn't die. God killed babies, right, that's correct. Okay,

1646
01:15:12,560 --> 01:15:15,800
So killing babies is okay for God to do, why

1647
01:15:15,880 --> 01:15:18,079
is it not good for humans to do? If everything

1648
01:15:18,119 --> 01:15:19,039
God does is.

1649
01:15:19,000 --> 01:15:21,560
Speaker 5: Good, God is the only one in the set, and

1650
01:15:21,600 --> 01:15:24,880
if you or I kill somebody, we've completely lost contact

1651
01:15:24,880 --> 01:15:25,439
with that person.

1652
01:15:25,640 --> 01:15:27,920
Speaker 2: You have one set of morals for God and one

1653
01:15:27,960 --> 01:15:31,239
set of morals for humans, that's what you're saying. Therefore,

1654
01:15:31,279 --> 01:15:35,359
there is no objective morals because objective morals would exist

1655
01:15:35,920 --> 01:15:40,119
outside of any type of brain that includes gods. So

1656
01:15:40,159 --> 01:15:42,279
there are no objective morals. So you've destroyed your own

1657
01:15:42,319 --> 01:15:42,960
moral argument.

1658
01:15:43,119 --> 01:15:43,720
Speaker 5: I don't think so.

1659
01:15:44,000 --> 01:15:46,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, So where's the objective morals? If there's one set

1660
01:15:46,319 --> 01:15:48,439
of morals for God one set of morals for humans,

1661
01:15:48,640 --> 01:15:50,000
where's the objectivity in that?

1662
01:15:50,239 --> 01:15:52,279
Speaker 5: If God is the one who creates the moral law,

1663
01:15:52,319 --> 01:15:54,079
it's a little different then.

1664
01:15:54,279 --> 01:15:55,960
Speaker 2: Nope, it's God's opinion at that point.

1665
01:15:56,039 --> 01:15:58,079
Speaker 5: See, when you're dealing with God and life and death,

1666
01:15:58,079 --> 01:15:59,279
it's very different because you and I.

1667
01:15:59,439 --> 01:16:01,760
Speaker 2: When you're dealing with the word objective, it means it

1668
01:16:01,800 --> 01:16:04,399
applies outside of a mind, including God's.

1669
01:16:04,680 --> 01:16:06,640
Speaker 5: Is it would it be wrong for me to move

1670
01:16:06,680 --> 01:16:08,399
someone from one side of a door to the other.

1671
01:16:10,159 --> 01:16:11,880
Speaker 2: I have absolutely no idea because I don't know what

1672
01:16:12,279 --> 01:16:15,880
the circumstances are, because trying to figure out what morals

1673
01:16:15,920 --> 01:16:18,960
are are often complicated because there are gray areas. It

1674
01:16:19,039 --> 01:16:22,439
is not always wrong to kill somebody, for instance, even

1675
01:16:22,560 --> 01:16:25,079
though you may get charged with murder, for.

1676
01:16:25,079 --> 01:16:27,119
Speaker 5: God to move someone from life to death as much

1677
01:16:27,119 --> 01:16:29,399
as moving them from one room into another. So he's

1678
01:16:29,439 --> 01:16:32,560
in a different situation. So it's not that moral is subjective.

1679
01:16:32,640 --> 01:16:34,600
Is that he's in a different situation than we are.

1680
01:16:34,720 --> 01:16:38,199
Speaker 2: Oh so God can kill people because but when people

1681
01:16:38,279 --> 01:16:40,239
kill people, we're not moving them from one door to

1682
01:16:40,279 --> 01:16:40,600
the other.

1683
01:16:40,640 --> 01:16:45,000
Speaker 1: Apparently Walter's pro abortion. Now, thanks for letting us know.

1684
01:16:45,439 --> 01:16:48,239
Speaker 5: We're moving them completely outside of our realm. That's why

1685
01:16:48,239 --> 01:16:49,439
we're commanded not to do it.

1686
01:16:49,520 --> 01:16:51,199
Speaker 2: But we're just moving them from what we're doing, the

1687
01:16:51,239 --> 01:16:54,079
same thing. God's doing. When God kills, he moves them

1688
01:16:54,119 --> 01:16:56,359
from one side to the other. When we kill, we

1689
01:16:56,399 --> 01:16:58,000
move them from one side to the other. It's the

1690
01:16:58,039 --> 01:16:58,840
same behavior.

1691
01:16:59,279 --> 01:17:02,479
Speaker 5: When he does there's still there's still he's able to

1692
01:17:02,520 --> 01:17:04,199
watch over them on both sides of the door.

1693
01:17:04,279 --> 01:17:06,800
Speaker 2: We're not, so he's not able to watch over people

1694
01:17:06,840 --> 01:17:08,760
on both sides of the door of weak gls on body.

1695
01:17:09,439 --> 01:17:11,000
Speaker 5: That's not what I said. I agree.

1696
01:17:14,520 --> 01:17:16,439
Speaker 2: I mean this is this is a problem with your

1697
01:17:16,439 --> 01:17:19,720
objective morals is you end up with morals for God

1698
01:17:19,800 --> 01:17:23,359
morals for humans, and so morals can't exist outside of

1699
01:17:23,359 --> 01:17:25,960
a human mind or outside of a mind period. Whether

1700
01:17:25,960 --> 01:17:28,920
it's God's or humans or or dogs, makes no difference.

1701
01:17:29,159 --> 01:17:32,279
In order for something to be objective, it has to

1702
01:17:32,319 --> 01:17:34,880
exist outside of a mind, and you don't have morals

1703
01:17:34,880 --> 01:17:37,800
that do it because you're and that's that's exactly what

1704
01:17:37,800 --> 01:17:40,359
you're doing. When you say God has morals that we don't.

1705
01:17:40,399 --> 01:17:43,239
When God can do things that we can't, you're saying

1706
01:17:43,279 --> 01:17:45,960
that that there are no objective morals, that everything is

1707
01:17:46,000 --> 01:17:47,079
subjective to God.

1708
01:17:47,600 --> 01:17:51,000
Speaker 8: You made your own definition of objective morals to no, No,

1709
01:17:51,039 --> 01:17:54,159
I'm using the correct definition for objective connection.

1710
01:17:54,239 --> 01:17:56,399
Speaker 2: Give out. I don't know. I still show him is

1711
01:17:56,439 --> 01:17:57,920
on on college studio.

1712
01:17:57,600 --> 01:18:00,439
Speaker 1: And says he's there, I mean himself. He might have

1713
01:18:00,560 --> 01:18:03,239
maybe Lord finally got embarrassed with the conversation and took him.

1714
01:18:05,439 --> 01:18:09,239
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well that's the problem with the moral argument, right

1715
01:18:09,520 --> 01:18:12,359
is you can't Well, it looks like he just dropped.

1716
01:18:12,520 --> 01:18:15,800
Speaker 1: Not sure why I took care of it. So we've

1717
01:18:15,800 --> 01:18:17,880
got time for one more caller. I'm going to read

1718
01:18:17,920 --> 01:18:22,119
some superchat real coick. Also remember on any baby paste

1719
01:18:22,600 --> 01:18:27,680
edible example, Jeremiah nineteen nine is clear God says I

1720
01:18:27,760 --> 01:18:30,079
will make them eat the flesh of their sons and

1721
01:18:30,119 --> 01:18:33,319
their daughters. God is more than happy to cause people

1722
01:18:33,319 --> 01:18:37,319
to cannibalize their children. So yeah, saying God wouldn't tell

1723
01:18:37,359 --> 01:18:39,640
me to do it just means you haven't read your book.

1724
01:18:39,680 --> 01:18:41,560
It's okay, We're used to it. Christians don't read this thing.

1725
01:18:41,600 --> 01:18:43,720
But let's grab some super chats and we'll get our

1726
01:18:43,800 --> 01:18:47,760
last guest, Benji into the show. We've got a super

1727
01:18:47,840 --> 01:18:52,960
chat from Crispin slit for two pounds, says me. Yeah, well, hey,

1728
01:18:53,000 --> 01:18:55,920
welcome Crispin, thank you for the meout chat. And Duke

1729
01:18:56,279 --> 01:18:58,960
then in a ten euro chat, says I'm allowing this

1730
01:18:59,079 --> 01:19:02,119
tax to duckle do to appear on my bank statement.

1731
01:19:02,159 --> 01:19:04,479
And you got it. Friend, make sure to do your

1732
01:19:04,520 --> 01:19:06,880
taxes and don't forget about this donation. Thank you for

1733
01:19:06,960 --> 01:19:09,920
that though, and ecta fool with a two dollars supertest says,

1734
01:19:09,920 --> 01:19:14,039
I hoped a pastor might have higher quality lies. Nope,

1735
01:19:14,119 --> 01:19:17,279
as the next pastor myself. They don't have any better

1736
01:19:17,359 --> 01:19:19,640
coping mechanism than the people in the pew. That's where

1737
01:19:19,640 --> 01:19:21,399
they're learning it from in the pew, is from their

1738
01:19:21,439 --> 01:19:24,600
pastor who has no idea what's happening. And another one

1739
01:19:24,640 --> 01:19:28,399
from our friend Duke Shaska says apes we are apes,

1740
01:19:28,439 --> 01:19:32,279
not monkeys, and we sacrifice ourselves because our strategy is

1741
01:19:32,319 --> 01:19:36,600
survival of the herd, not the individual. Couldn't agree more, friend,

1742
01:19:36,880 --> 01:19:39,159
and Phil, oh, thank you for the five dollars supertest says,

1743
01:19:39,159 --> 01:19:43,359
how does one regulate something and not approve of it? Think, Walter,

1744
01:19:43,479 --> 01:19:45,920
think that's exactly you know. I should have brought this up.

1745
01:19:45,960 --> 01:19:48,239
I've done it before. But like if if my son

1746
01:19:48,520 --> 01:19:51,880
is hitting somebody with a toy and I say, okay,

1747
01:19:52,199 --> 01:19:54,439
you can only hit her ten times, not one hundred times,

1748
01:19:54,680 --> 01:19:56,520
Well I'm the asshole. I should have said, don't hit

1749
01:19:56,600 --> 01:19:59,279
that child at all. Like regulating something that you could

1750
01:19:59,319 --> 01:20:01,319
easily end isn't better.

1751
01:20:01,279 --> 01:20:04,640
Speaker 2: Right, And we regulated behavior all the time because behavior

1752
01:20:04,960 --> 01:20:09,680
in certain cases is okay. So it's okay to hit

1753
01:20:09,720 --> 01:20:12,520
somebody if you're a UFC fighter. It's not okay to

1754
01:20:12,560 --> 01:20:16,319
hit somebody because they took your toy as a child.

1755
01:20:16,439 --> 01:20:18,399
Right now, if they stole your car, that's still not

1756
01:20:18,439 --> 01:20:21,960
okay to hit somebody, right, So we regulate the behavior

1757
01:20:22,000 --> 01:20:26,119
because we approve of the behavior in certain narrow circumstances.

1758
01:20:26,359 --> 01:20:29,079
Speaker 1: Right, And Verna Smith, thank you for the two dollars,

1759
01:20:29,079 --> 01:20:33,520
super chest says, may all living things be free? Fuck slavery. Hey,

1760
01:20:33,600 --> 01:20:36,479
I'm with you, vern I'm with you. Verna fill oh

1761
01:20:36,520 --> 01:20:39,039
with another five dollars. Super Chest says, so Walter is

1762
01:20:39,199 --> 01:20:45,119
an excuses excuse it just with a chronic severe case

1763
01:20:45,239 --> 01:20:50,199
of Godzheimer's. Get help, Walter, please get it sued. Might

1764
01:20:50,960 --> 01:20:52,600
it may or me not be the case. We don't

1765
01:20:52,680 --> 01:20:56,319
do any medical advice here, friends, and doctor David Wassembla

1766
01:20:56,359 --> 01:20:59,159
thank you for the five pound chat says Glad I

1767
01:20:59,239 --> 01:21:02,199
caught part of this, albeit late due to work. Great job,

1768
01:21:02,319 --> 01:21:05,159
Justin and Jim Profits of Doug, I'll have to catch

1769
01:21:05,199 --> 01:21:08,000
up tomorrow as it's eleven fifty pm here. Well, we

1770
01:21:08,079 --> 01:21:09,920
hope that you get lots of rest and we really

1771
01:21:09,960 --> 01:21:11,880
appreciate you being here and support in the channel. And

1772
01:21:12,039 --> 01:21:15,520
also our friend Jimmy Junior is in the house with

1773
01:21:15,560 --> 01:21:18,279
a ten dollars super great to see is says in

1774
01:21:18,359 --> 01:21:22,399
fourteen forty. The printing press was invented. In fifteen seventeen,

1775
01:21:22,439 --> 01:21:25,520
the Lutheran Church splintered from the Catholic Church. People being

1776
01:21:25,560 --> 01:21:27,760
able to read was the beginning of the downfall of

1777
01:21:27,760 --> 01:21:31,000
the Catholic Church. That is a fact actually, and last

1778
01:21:31,039 --> 01:21:34,680
one from Dustin Hopkins for fourtine and nine, says Doug Blass.

1779
01:21:34,720 --> 01:21:36,520
We agree. We're you going to say, Jim sorry about that.

1780
01:21:36,640 --> 01:21:39,920
Speaker 2: Oh, I was just say with anything as historical is

1781
01:21:39,960 --> 01:21:42,079
a downfall of the Catholic Church, it's always more than

1782
01:21:42,119 --> 01:21:45,880
one thing. But yeah, you could definitely point to the

1783
01:21:45,880 --> 01:21:49,239
printing press as being where people could read the Bible

1784
01:21:49,279 --> 01:21:51,439
for themselves. And I think that's also where we go

1785
01:21:51,560 --> 01:21:55,479
from having a single Catholic, unified church as unified as

1786
01:21:55,520 --> 01:21:57,319
something as large as the Catholic Church at the time

1787
01:21:57,399 --> 01:22:02,039
could be anyway to ten thousand different. I mean, we've

1788
01:22:02,079 --> 01:22:05,520
seen that happen just on the show today, right with

1789
01:22:05,600 --> 01:22:10,439
people with wildly different and weird interpretations of the Bible.

1790
01:22:10,520 --> 01:22:15,239
Stuff is just not there, so you know, it's it's problematic.

1791
01:22:15,520 --> 01:22:18,640
Speaker 1: Well, let's get our last caller in here. I'm having

1792
01:22:18,640 --> 01:22:20,720
so much fun, Jim, it's hard to believe it's already

1793
01:22:20,760 --> 01:22:22,800
seven o'clock. I wish we could stay on for like

1794
01:22:22,800 --> 01:22:23,720
another three hours, but.

1795
01:22:23,880 --> 01:22:27,039
Speaker 2: We can go. We go school.

1796
01:22:27,640 --> 01:22:28,159
Speaker 1: We're out of.

1797
01:22:31,319 --> 01:22:34,199
Speaker 2: Hey, I am not Jimbo. Did not ever call me

1798
01:22:34,239 --> 01:22:36,159
that again, or I'll just cut you off immediately.

1799
01:22:36,399 --> 01:22:37,479
Speaker 9: I've done.

1800
01:22:37,520 --> 01:22:40,520
Speaker 2: It was in that name, sorrype, My name is Jim.

1801
01:22:40,560 --> 01:22:41,840
That's why it says Jim on there.

1802
01:22:42,039 --> 01:22:45,960
Speaker 9: Oh sorry, Well I was going to say that, Yeah,

1803
01:22:46,000 --> 01:22:49,079
the printing press, which I was thinking Benjamin Franklin because

1804
01:22:49,079 --> 01:22:51,680
I know that he was a newspaper guy when he

1805
01:22:51,840 --> 01:22:54,640
was a kid, and I was thinking that he invented

1806
01:22:54,680 --> 01:22:57,720
it because he printed papers, which I mean even at

1807
01:22:57,720 --> 01:23:01,079
the time when papers were printed, you know, like newspapers

1808
01:23:01,079 --> 01:23:03,760
and stuff. I was in there thinking that because I know,

1809
01:23:04,199 --> 01:23:07,640
you know, they had slaves even when there was paper, right,

1810
01:23:07,920 --> 01:23:12,600
like like papers, you know, newspapers and stuff and articles.

1811
01:23:12,119 --> 01:23:15,279
Speaker 4: So I knew that, like, yeah, that that didn't make

1812
01:23:15,279 --> 01:23:18,520
any sense. Yeah, because he was we had, you know,

1813
01:23:18,840 --> 01:23:22,560
slavely disappeared because of the printing press. And I'm sitting

1814
01:23:22,600 --> 01:23:24,319
there and going, no, that don't make.

1815
01:23:24,159 --> 01:23:27,560
Speaker 1: Sense, Benji. It says that you want to talk about

1816
01:23:27,600 --> 01:23:29,920
the idea of sin and where it came from before

1817
01:23:29,960 --> 01:23:32,119
we get a feel for the call. Can you tell

1818
01:23:32,199 --> 01:23:34,479
us what your position is? Are you a believer in

1819
01:23:34,520 --> 01:23:36,279
some kind of a god, and if so, which kind?

1820
01:23:36,920 --> 01:23:37,319
Speaker 5: Well?

1821
01:23:37,640 --> 01:23:42,279
Speaker 4: Yeah, so I'm a gnostic mostly. I mean I've been

1822
01:23:42,399 --> 01:23:46,000
Catholic and Baptists and everything throughout the decades. I've been

1823
01:23:46,039 --> 01:23:48,680
around a while, but I also believe in limbo. But

1824
01:23:48,720 --> 01:23:51,279
I'm still pretty much a gnostic at this point.

1825
01:23:52,640 --> 01:23:55,319
Speaker 1: Did we talk before you? Did you talk with Forrest.

1826
01:23:55,079 --> 01:23:55,680
Speaker 2: And I ones?

1827
01:23:55,840 --> 01:23:59,680
Speaker 4: Yeah, I talked to a lot of y'all. Gym okay, yeah,

1828
01:23:59,720 --> 01:24:01,960
that's up to him. A few times. I talked to you,

1829
01:24:02,239 --> 01:24:05,039
I talked to doctor Ben. I talked to the other one,

1830
01:24:05,560 --> 01:24:08,960
other doctor guy, I can't remember his name. And then

1831
01:24:09,000 --> 01:24:14,119
I talked to guy he's a he's one guy to

1832
01:24:14,159 --> 01:24:17,359
talk to, and then the other one I can't remember.

1833
01:24:17,600 --> 01:24:18,359
Speaker 1: So what's the question?

1834
01:24:19,279 --> 01:24:24,119
Speaker 4: Yeah, Yeah, so I was I was thinking, because I

1835
01:24:24,199 --> 01:24:27,039
was going to argue for sin that then I've told

1836
01:24:27,079 --> 01:24:31,880
the stream callers like like ause, y'all would argue against sin, right,

1837
01:24:32,119 --> 01:24:34,560
and then even if I argued for sin, it wouldn't

1838
01:24:34,560 --> 01:24:37,640
wantly make much sense because like, well, well, my idea

1839
01:24:38,319 --> 01:24:40,000
idea of sin is stupid anyway.

1840
01:24:40,159 --> 01:24:42,520
Speaker 1: But to be sure, like if if we're an atheist,

1841
01:24:42,560 --> 01:24:44,520
we don't believe sin exists, because sin is like the

1842
01:24:44,600 --> 01:24:48,159
disobedience against like a deity, and so like obviously you'd

1843
01:24:48,159 --> 01:24:50,079
have to prove a dity before you prove sin.

1844
01:24:50,439 --> 01:24:52,960
Speaker 4: Well, I was going with JA was going to argue

1845
01:24:53,000 --> 01:24:55,319
against the idea of sin, and I was going to

1846
01:24:55,439 --> 01:24:59,039
argue for the idea of sin. But either way, because y'all,

1847
01:24:59,199 --> 01:25:02,279
I mean, Jim's been on both sides. I don't know

1848
01:25:02,319 --> 01:25:04,960
if you've always been an atheist or not, but I

1849
01:25:04,960 --> 01:25:08,079
know Jims was a Catholic at one point, was.

1850
01:25:08,079 --> 01:25:10,640
Speaker 1: A Christian for about twenty years.

1851
01:25:10,960 --> 01:25:15,640
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, would y'all want to argue against sin

1852
01:25:15,920 --> 01:25:17,880
or just say that you don't believe it at all?

1853
01:25:18,399 --> 01:25:20,600
Speaker 2: The argument against sin is that we don't believe that

1854
01:25:20,600 --> 01:25:23,239
God exists, and sin is an offense against a God.

1855
01:25:23,840 --> 01:25:26,119
So that's our entire argument. So if you want to

1856
01:25:26,239 --> 01:25:30,039
argue for sin, you should probably start with what you're

1857
01:25:30,119 --> 01:25:32,439
defining a god, then trying to prove that God exists,

1858
01:25:32,840 --> 01:25:34,840
and then show us what offends that God.

1859
01:25:35,399 --> 01:25:38,399
Speaker 4: Well, a lot of sets there.

1860
01:25:38,960 --> 01:25:39,720
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1861
01:25:39,760 --> 01:25:43,640
Speaker 7: Well, the god that I was arguing for was going

1862
01:25:43,680 --> 01:25:49,359
to be the if he blew it god of the Yeah,

1863
01:25:49,520 --> 01:25:53,920
so the God of the Bible basically. And then which

1864
01:25:54,000 --> 01:25:55,840
I mean even in a lot of people don't know this,

1865
01:25:55,960 --> 01:25:59,920
but even in the Bible, those multiple gods. But anyway, Yeah,

1866
01:26:00,199 --> 01:26:03,920
the thing I was going to try to do, sorry,

1867
01:26:03,920 --> 01:26:04,720
what I.

1868
01:26:04,640 --> 01:26:08,239
Speaker 2: Was agreeing with you that the Bible actually is uh

1869
01:26:08,840 --> 01:26:11,079
as multiple guys aren't.

1870
01:26:11,119 --> 01:26:15,039
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, a lot of people don't know that. But yeah,

1871
01:26:15,079 --> 01:26:17,239
and then uh, I.

1872
01:26:17,199 --> 01:26:20,680
Speaker 1: Mean I I just let's try to frame the conversation

1873
01:26:20,720 --> 01:26:23,239
a little bit, Benny, because we're short on time. Benjamin,

1874
01:26:24,399 --> 01:26:28,600
do you have a conversation or an argument or something

1875
01:26:28,640 --> 01:26:31,359
that would end with the conclusion that God is real?

1876
01:26:31,439 --> 01:26:34,720
Because before we can move to any sin discussion, we

1877
01:26:34,800 --> 01:26:36,720
need to first prove that God is real.

1878
01:26:37,119 --> 01:26:45,399
Speaker 4: Well, object to morality obviously wouldn't work.

1879
01:26:45,880 --> 01:26:47,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, we shouldn't do that one again.

1880
01:26:52,800 --> 01:26:56,800
Speaker 4: Well, I mean it doesn't only matter what's argument I do,

1881
01:26:56,880 --> 01:27:00,239
because most of them all have already heard or Polly olive.

1882
01:27:01,119 --> 01:27:04,159
Speaker 2: All of them. Yeah, there aren't that many, and everybody

1883
01:27:04,279 --> 01:27:07,199
uses them and they're all bad. Do you love me?

1884
01:27:07,319 --> 01:27:07,960
Speaker 5: Just pick one?

1885
01:27:09,720 --> 01:27:13,640
Speaker 2: No? I mean we're getting close to the end, and uh,

1886
01:27:13,800 --> 01:27:16,039
you know if you're if you're going to argue it

1887
01:27:16,119 --> 01:27:18,880
just for the sake of argument, then that's not doing

1888
01:27:18,920 --> 01:27:20,760
anybody any good at all. Yeah.

1889
01:27:21,199 --> 01:27:24,760
Speaker 1: Well, I mean, Benji, I've talked to you. I've talked

1890
01:27:24,760 --> 01:27:27,319
to you before, and I don't think the conversation was able

1891
01:27:27,359 --> 01:27:29,479
to go anywhere because you just wanted to play Devil's

1892
01:27:29,520 --> 01:27:32,199
advocate and will that could be fun. I'd love to

1893
01:27:32,199 --> 01:27:35,239
shoot the breeze with somebody on that doing that particular thing.

1894
01:27:35,279 --> 01:27:36,760
That's not really the point of this show.

1895
01:27:37,000 --> 01:27:37,159
Speaker 3: You know.

1896
01:27:37,239 --> 01:27:39,680
Speaker 1: The point of this show is to debate positions that

1897
01:27:39,720 --> 01:27:42,640
you actually hold, and so I think for that reason,

1898
01:27:42,680 --> 01:27:44,520
maybe we have to terminate.

1899
01:27:44,159 --> 01:27:47,640
Speaker 4: The talk about what I think subsin. But I mean

1900
01:27:47,680 --> 01:27:49,760
I actually just not try to prove cent and just

1901
01:27:49,840 --> 01:27:52,279
talk about what my opinion is osin if.

1902
01:27:52,199 --> 01:27:55,359
Speaker 1: That would work, we need the argument for God first,

1903
01:27:55,479 --> 01:27:58,760
that that's the reduction of your position, which was in

1904
01:27:58,840 --> 01:28:01,640
order before before your opinion on sin matters, you have

1905
01:28:01,720 --> 01:28:05,159
to determine that God exists.

1906
01:28:06,119 --> 01:28:09,479
Speaker 4: Well, I mean that's kind of that's the idea I

1907
01:28:09,520 --> 01:28:10,600
had to call in about.

1908
01:28:11,479 --> 01:28:11,880
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1909
01:28:11,920 --> 01:28:14,560
Speaker 1: Well, well, listen, I'm sorry it didn't work out for you, Benji,

1910
01:28:14,600 --> 01:28:17,239
but we really appreciate that you're nice and you're kind,

1911
01:28:17,279 --> 01:28:19,680
and you're funny, and you're good to talk to. Like that,

1912
01:28:20,119 --> 01:28:22,439
those are really good qualities to have, even if you're

1913
01:28:22,479 --> 01:28:25,760
not on the atheistic worldview. So just know that, like,

1914
01:28:25,800 --> 01:28:29,000
we appreciate that you're coming up here with such good candor.

1915
01:28:29,119 --> 01:28:31,319
But next time you come, we want to hear your

1916
01:28:31,560 --> 01:28:33,760
very best argument for why God exists.

1917
01:28:33,760 --> 01:28:35,039
Speaker 2: Okay, well I'll.

1918
01:28:34,920 --> 01:28:37,000
Speaker 4: Try, but I'm pretty sure it'll fail.

1919
01:28:37,880 --> 01:28:40,920
Speaker 1: Okay, It's okay, It'll be funny either way, all right,

1920
01:28:40,960 --> 01:28:45,279
chirs friend, Well, next Sunday, I'm not on. I'm not sure,

1921
01:28:45,319 --> 01:28:47,279
but somebody also would be on. I'm positive that.

1922
01:28:47,720 --> 01:28:50,319
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, i'll have something really good on. Yeah. We're

1923
01:28:50,399 --> 01:28:52,680
usually on about once a month, sometimes twice a month.

1924
01:28:52,680 --> 01:28:54,399
It kind of depends on how the scheduling falls.

1925
01:28:54,439 --> 01:28:57,720
Speaker 1: Scheduling falls, so yeah, well let me let me run

1926
01:28:57,800 --> 01:28:59,720
our last super chat and that I want to hear

1927
01:29:00,079 --> 01:29:04,119
Jimmy's input. I think if I know anything about Jamie's input,

1928
01:29:04,119 --> 01:29:05,960
if I know anything about Jamie, He's got some things

1929
01:29:06,039 --> 01:29:10,520
to say. I'm still thinking of that super chat from

1930
01:29:10,560 --> 01:29:13,479
Jimmy Junior, God's Sinner, thank you for the fin diary,

1931
01:29:13,479 --> 01:29:17,920
Supergensis on behalf of the Big Nick. Take his book,

1932
01:29:18,119 --> 01:29:22,880
read it, but don't interpret it unless you're Christian. From Carakel. Yeah,

1933
01:29:23,000 --> 01:29:25,279
I mean it's hard not to interpret a book while

1934
01:29:25,560 --> 01:29:29,039
you're reading it, but yeah, for sure, Like if if

1935
01:29:29,039 --> 01:29:31,720
you're a Christian and you're reading that book, we understand

1936
01:29:31,800 --> 01:29:33,960
that you have to do the putzels, like you have

1937
01:29:34,039 --> 01:29:36,880
to look at these passages and do the dance of

1938
01:29:36,960 --> 01:29:39,840
words don't mean words. But if you're an atheist, you

1939
01:29:39,880 --> 01:29:41,880
can read this book and you just have fun with it.

1940
01:29:41,960 --> 01:29:44,159
You can read it and like, oh, this motherfucker over

1941
01:29:44,199 --> 01:29:46,479
here thinks you should eat your children, Like it's just

1942
01:29:46,560 --> 01:29:48,199
a good time, you know what I mean.

1943
01:29:49,399 --> 01:29:51,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think atheists are the only people who

1944
01:29:51,840 --> 01:29:54,319
can actually claim that we do not interpret the book

1945
01:29:54,640 --> 01:29:56,960
because we're more than willing to accept that there are

1946
01:29:57,439 --> 01:30:00,880
two stories in Genesis that are completely incapable with each other,

1947
01:30:01,199 --> 01:30:05,119
and so we can read those literally. We can read

1948
01:30:05,399 --> 01:30:07,399
the story of the flood and realize that there are

1949
01:30:07,439 --> 01:30:11,359
two stories embedded in the same story, because we can

1950
01:30:11,439 --> 01:30:15,800
see where we have two story beginnings, and it makes

1951
01:30:15,800 --> 01:30:18,279
no sense in any other interpretation. And so we can

1952
01:30:18,439 --> 01:30:22,000
read this stuff literally. And Christians can't because they have

1953
01:30:22,039 --> 01:30:24,600
to come up with a single narrative, and there isn't

1954
01:30:24,680 --> 01:30:28,159
There's what sixty six different narratives, and some books have

1955
01:30:28,399 --> 01:30:31,439
two or three narratives inside of them, so you know,

1956
01:30:31,600 --> 01:30:32,560
it just doesn't work.

1957
01:30:32,760 --> 01:30:35,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I agree. One of the few things I

1958
01:30:35,560 --> 01:30:37,960
agree with in the Bible is eat and drink, be

1959
01:30:38,119 --> 01:30:41,279
merry because tomorrow we may die. Those are those are

1960
01:30:41,279 --> 01:30:44,399
pretty decent words. But let's bring up Jamie. Jamie, I'd

1961
01:30:44,399 --> 01:30:47,399
love to hear your thoughts on some of these calls.

1962
01:30:47,439 --> 01:30:49,520
Speaker 10: Oh there, am O got Yes, I can't tell when

1963
01:30:49,520 --> 01:30:51,720
I'm on and when I'm musing because it's so far away,

1964
01:30:52,560 --> 01:30:59,960
real quick. Roberts Paul Spiel was extremely aggrificing. But I'm

1965
01:31:00,079 --> 01:31:02,319
found I've found in the I'm in the dilemma that

1966
01:31:02,359 --> 01:31:09,079
I have to keep pose law in mind but also

1967
01:31:09,359 --> 01:31:12,159
take people on their word and his his his arguments

1968
01:31:12,159 --> 01:31:16,760
were so base level nonsense and trying to equivocate if

1969
01:31:16,800 --> 01:31:18,960
evolution and stuff. But the thing is that I said

1970
01:31:19,079 --> 01:31:21,439
straight at the start. Two things he said that obviously

1971
01:31:21,560 --> 01:31:24,560
specifically to me, made me interested was he was blind

1972
01:31:24,600 --> 01:31:27,920
from birth, and he said he was his Bible was

1973
01:31:27,920 --> 01:31:31,920
in Braille, right, And anytime anyone claims that that that

1974
01:31:31,920 --> 01:31:35,239
that that they're as part of their story they're blind,

1975
01:31:35,520 --> 01:31:38,239
my first thought is to say, oh, what condition do

1976
01:31:38,279 --> 01:31:41,000
you have, because not to be not to not to

1977
01:31:41,159 --> 01:31:43,560
cast a spurgeons on someone who's not to defend themselves.

1978
01:31:43,680 --> 01:31:45,800
I don't think he could tell me because I'm not

1979
01:31:45,880 --> 01:31:48,239
certain he has one, because I could tell you exactly

1980
01:31:48,239 --> 01:31:51,479
what's wrong with my eyes, and I think most people

1981
01:31:51,560 --> 01:31:54,399
who have a visual impairment can also do the same.

1982
01:31:54,520 --> 01:31:58,039
But anyway, then there was Walter, and Walter was a

1983
01:31:58,159 --> 01:32:02,840
quite example of command theory, and I wasn't so I

1984
01:32:02,840 --> 01:32:04,960
don't think you can see me while I'm in studio,

1985
01:32:05,159 --> 01:32:07,000
because you kind of when I'm streaming from home. But

1986
01:32:07,119 --> 01:32:12,199
I was going absolutely fucking spare. I was like because

1987
01:32:13,119 --> 01:32:16,439
because he's like, oh no, when he says it causes it,

1988
01:32:16,439 --> 01:32:17,800
it's he just allows it.

1989
01:32:17,880 --> 01:32:18,920
Speaker 2: And then oh it was slavery.

1990
01:32:18,960 --> 01:32:21,600
Speaker 10: He just allows it so and it's it's it's the

1991
01:32:21,640 --> 01:32:25,560
flipping picking, the cherry picking, or picking winds and the winds.

1992
01:32:25,640 --> 01:32:28,479
Anytime anything good happens that God says he causes, he

1993
01:32:28,520 --> 01:32:31,640
caused it. Anytime anything bad happens, he just allowed it.

1994
01:32:31,760 --> 01:32:34,920
Outside of that, it's divine command theory. And as soon

1995
01:32:35,000 --> 01:32:37,800
as he said that he would, he would allow, like

1996
01:32:38,000 --> 01:32:41,119
he would kill babies. But I trust God won't won't

1997
01:32:41,159 --> 01:32:46,560
tell me to do that. I'm like, I'm almost I'm like, oh, Walter.

1998
01:32:47,079 --> 01:32:50,640
Speaker 2: Abraham killing his son. There are Bible scholars who think

1999
01:32:50,720 --> 01:32:53,239
the ending of that was added, Yeah, that he actually

2000
01:32:53,279 --> 01:32:55,600
did kill his son, because if he take that out

2001
01:32:55,600 --> 01:32:58,920
and continue to read, it actually makes more sense.

2002
01:32:59,079 --> 01:33:02,159
Speaker 10: And then there's jetths do you know it's like and it's, oh,

2003
01:33:02,199 --> 01:33:04,960
he allowed him to immolate his daughter as a burnt

2004
01:33:05,000 --> 01:33:08,239
offering and that kind of thing, and yeah, nahl, did

2005
01:33:08,279 --> 01:33:11,439
anyone go up to heaven? I actually read Two Kings too.

2006
01:33:11,600 --> 01:33:16,159
I actually read it well drunk on camera recently. The

2007
01:33:16,199 --> 01:33:22,279
way Yeah, punching roots, half wild ship anyway, it's kind

2008
01:33:22,279 --> 01:33:27,239
of Moses light. But the whole thing is that the

2009
01:33:27,800 --> 01:33:31,880
divine command theory plus a lovely, lovely side order of

2010
01:33:31,920 --> 01:33:35,560
special pleading, like everything God does is good, but there's

2011
01:33:35,600 --> 01:33:38,479
only one morality that is objective. But God doesn't have

2012
01:33:38,560 --> 01:33:41,439
to God isn't moral, He doesn't apply to morals, but

2013
01:33:41,640 --> 01:33:43,880
he doesn't have morals, but he is moral, and he

2014
01:33:43,920 --> 01:33:47,920
made the morals. And I'm like, ugh, it's it's just avoidance.

2015
01:33:47,960 --> 01:33:50,720
It's just I've not seen dodging like that since the

2016
01:33:50,800 --> 01:33:53,439
last no Hit playthrough of Devil May Cry three that

2017
01:33:53,520 --> 01:33:56,239
I watched on on the YouTube's So thank you for

2018
01:33:56,279 --> 01:33:58,279
having me up, guys. You did a fantastic bang up

2019
01:33:58,359 --> 01:33:59,039
job as usual.

2020
01:33:59,279 --> 01:33:59,840
Speaker 2: Take us out.

2021
01:34:00,159 --> 01:34:03,239
Speaker 1: Thank you so much, Jamie, and thank you everybody for

2022
01:34:03,319 --> 01:34:06,640
being here today. Thank you Jim for joining me on

2023
01:34:06,640 --> 01:34:08,680
the screen. I think we always have a blast when

2024
01:34:08,680 --> 01:34:12,600
we're together. Always a pleasure. And we'll see you next week,

2025
01:34:12,840 --> 01:34:15,680
same time, same place. Make sure y'all show up and

2026
01:34:15,680 --> 01:34:18,439
support who's ever hosted next week, friends, take us out,

2027
01:34:18,920 --> 01:34:26,960
glad we start up, Stop.

2028
01:34:28,760 --> 01:34:35,720
Speaker 11: Sam watch Talking and Live Sundays at one pm Central.

2029
01:34:35,800 --> 01:34:38,720
Visit tiny dot c c slash y T T H

2030
01:34:38,840 --> 01:34:43,000
and call into the show at five one two four two.

2031
01:34:43,119 --> 01:34:45,560
Connect to the show online at tiny dot c c.

2032
01:34:46,039 --> 01:34:46,359
Speaker 10: Haled