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Speaker 1: Yeah, you're listening to the Paranormal UK Radio Network and

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now it's time for the Paranormal Peep Show.

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Speaker 2: Good evening, good morning, and welcome wherever you are. This

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is the Hepanmo Show on Harpanwo Radio and the Paranormal

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Peep Show on the UK Paranormal Radio Network. My name

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is Ben Emlyn Jones and I'm joined by I'm co

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hosting this, but I'm also introducing it Neil Ward, who

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you're familiar with. Hello Neil, how are you doing?

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Speaker 3: Hello Ben, Hello Heipano viewers, and hello Paranormal UK Radio

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Network viewers or listeners and yet and I'm Neil from

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the Paranormal Peep Show and we've obviously discussed with you

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Ben as a guest on our show, so it's about

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time I thought i'd come and reguest the game once

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on yours.

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Speaker 2: Oh it's Rudy. You're always welcome, Neil. And you know what,

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we have a very interesting gentleman to speak to today.

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It is a Stephen Sacilarios and he's going to tell

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us all about himself and what he does. So Steven, welcome,

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How are you very good?

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Speaker 4: Thanks for inviting me.

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Speaker 2: Thank You're very very welcome to beg was just perhaps

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you could introduce yourself and the kind of things you do,

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and be ray intering to hear from you.

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Speaker 4: Well, my interest is kind of twofold, but for our

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purposes it's reincarnation. And I have a master's in counseling.

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First of all, I've studied Eastern mysticism for something over

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fifty years, so those are my qualifications. And I produced

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a documentary on reincarnation called In Another Life Reincarnation in

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America that was released in two thousand and three and

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it's still being distributed to universities. So in I released

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that in two thousand and three, and a couple of

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years later I ran across what I thought might be

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a past life of my own, and this was a

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nineteenth century American writer named Matthew Franklin. Whittier looks almost

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exactly like me. But when I looked at the picture,

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I just kind of stumbled on his engraving online and

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looking into the eyes, I said, I'm looking at myself.

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It was a very strong experience, a recognition. So you know,

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for a while I got some information on him. There's

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one biography He's astute thesis, and some literature. His brother

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was famous John Greenleaf Whitti or the Quaker poet, so

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I could get a little information from there. But Matthew

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was the little brother, and he's really given short shrift

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in that biography. He's really looked down on as kind

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of the black sheep of the Whittier family. And I

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didn't feel that was right, so I started researching it.

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In two thousand and nine, I said, I'm going to

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start using all the things, all the methods that I

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learned when I was producing my documentary. I'm going to

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combine them all and I'm going to use them to

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research my own case as rigorously as I can. And

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I did, and what I found was that not only

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was I able to prove that that was myself in

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the past life, which I can talk about my methods

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for that, but I also found that he had quite

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a literary legacy was forgotten and buried in the historical

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record because he'd published everything anonymously. He'd hit himself and

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all kinds of people had falsely claimed his work and

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plagiarized his work, and scholars also had said, well, I

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don't know, this is a really good piece of work.

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I don't know who belonged to But let's assign it

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to this guy. You know. They're very sloppy with that,

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which very much surprised me. But if one scholar somewhere

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on very fragile basis decides that that was you know,

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so and So's work, then everybody, once it's in print,

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everybody signs off on that, and they all believe that

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that's absolute fact and you can't question it, you know.

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So anyway, I found this legacy, excuse me, there was

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really quite remarkable, and some of these pieces were plagiarized

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by famous authors. So that's where I lose everybody. Everybody

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assumes I have to be a fruitcake because I claimed

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that in a past life, I woul the one that

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wrote these famous pieces. So that makes me somewhat controversial.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's interesting. Now on the subject of reincarnation is

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that it's this is an extraordinary claim, but it does

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seem to have some lot to back up. In many

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many cases, this is the idea that we as people,

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even though we are ourselves and we have our own

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personalities and our own our own identity, that at some

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point in the past, some part of us, the soul

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or the consciousness or whatever actually lived as another person.

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In some cases it is actually in the past. Other

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people have memories of existences in other worlds of the universes,

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even as other beings. But it's an incredible amount of

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evidence there is for this. It's extraordinary, you know, memories

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and things like that. But so I'd like to come

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on to how you came to this conclusion and how

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you work this out. But first of all, Neil, do

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you want to say anything. Yeah, I just.

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Speaker 3: When we scheduled this original interview, I mean this backtracking

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slightly here. When we scheduled this original interview with Stephen,

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it was going to be for maybe a month or

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two down the road, and we were going to have

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another lady talking about her poltergeist experiences from a long

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time ago, and she wanted to be anonymous, but literally

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dialogue over email to sort of arrange dates and things

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is suddenly kicked off again for her, and she said,

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I can't go through with this simply because talking about

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it is setting off all this poltergeist activity. So it's

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interesting just from that point, I owned that it's almost

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like someone or something doesn't want her to proceed and

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is trying to control her, which I thought was interesting,

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But we can come more back to the Psidekicks stuff

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and maybe the mediumship things later on. I know that

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in previous interviews with Steven we discussed about kind of

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the techniques and things. Steve, and also that you believe

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that Matthew Whittier the life that you had, you're in

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communication with his partner and still around that hasn't ring.

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Calne is yourself and can you tell us a bit

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about that.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I consider her my spirit wife, and we first

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connected in March twenty ten, March ten, twenty ten, and

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that was through a psychic medium. I actually hired two

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that year. But I wrote to this lady whom I'd

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had readings with before, and I told her very little

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about it, just that there was a past life I

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wanted to look into. And I don't even think I

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told her that much. I just said I wanted a reading,

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and she wrote back and said, no, I won't read you.

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And she said the reason is that there's an attached spirit.

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And she says looking at you is like looking at

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an image and a funhouse mayor all distorted. So that's

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you know, Well, what was happening was I was so

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much immersed in my past life that there's actually two

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I'm really living two lifetimes in the same time, and

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that created that effect, apparently. So I explained to her

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a little more. I didn't want to tell her too much,

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you know, so I explained her a little more that

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I had this past life that I had identified, and

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I thought that my past life wife was trying to

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contact me. And she said, oh, okay, now I understand

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what's going on. She saw what these things were being

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caused by. So she said, okay, I'll read you. And

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then that was the reading. It was like two o'clock

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on the March tenth, and the first thing she said

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is that I almost called you an hour earlier because

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I was getting bombarded with images as whole for the

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last hour, you know, which tells me that Abby really

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wanted to talk to me, you know. So then we

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proceeded with the reading, and I took notes in real time.

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I wasn't recorded, but I took notes and learned quite

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a bit about Abbie. And I also found out many

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years later that a lot of the stuff she said

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was accurate, made a lot of hits, which I didn't

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know were hits because I hadn't delved into the history yet,

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but as I did, I was able to prove i

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don't know, maybe some ten points or something that she

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talked about historical things about Abby as a person and

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so forth. So that was our first contact. And then

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I had another reading, I think it was in December

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of that same year, and more hits. Then learned more

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about Abby, so I started trying to connect with her,

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you know, and at some point we married, you know.

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I mean, all I did was I went out to

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the beach at night and I put on a ring

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like here, and presumably she put one on, and we

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were married. So our anniversary is coming up, our fifteenth

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anniversary is coming up very soon on the tenth. And

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she taught me a couple different methods of communication, and

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one was sort of like dowsing. You know. I would

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hold my hand up and hold it limp and then

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like my ring finger, that finger would go down and

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I would try very hard not to do it myself.

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It's very tricky in terms of your subconscious mind influencing

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what you're doing, but I could get it was like

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yes no, and a prompt or and a maybe, you know.

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That was all we had. But you can play twenty

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questions with that. You can say is it this, or

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is it this? Or is it this? Prompt? Okay, it's that,

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And now that I know that's what you're telling me,

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then how about this and this? And you can dig

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down into, you know, what she's trying to tell me.

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And I also use the prompts for things like movies,

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Like I would go to the library or to the

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store and or online and I would say, how about

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this one? How about this one? And then I get

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a prompt, so then I'd go ahead and rent that movie.

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And it would typically the first ten or so times

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we did that, it would tell us tell me something

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about our relationship, you know. So she was kind of

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catching me up to speed, you know, about who we

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were as a couple. And then she taught me telepathy.

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It's just exactly like what many other people have described.

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People in the astra world are in a much much

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higher vibration and when they communicate with you, what you

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get is a burst. You know, it's a burst of

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information that contains like a whole paragraph's worth of information.

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If you were to write it out, it might take you,

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you know, a minute or two, but you get it

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just like that. So you guys are probably familiar with

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that too. And what she told me was, it's the

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opposite of the scientific usual skeptical method, where you don't

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believe anything until it's proved. She says, this is the opposite.

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She says, you believe it at the outset, and you

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practice and gradually you get better. But it requires the

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belief to start practicing, right, So that was kind of

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opposite the way I normally think about things, Neil. I'm

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sure you're a medium familiar with this, but gradually it's

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gotten better, you know, to where. Now what I do

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is I sit down on a fast typeist. So I

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sit down and I just type, and she says, you

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have to get rolling, you have to get started to

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overcome the inertia kind of So I get started typing

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just anything I'm thinking of, and then she starts prompting me,

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and I just kind of turn over. Once I get rolling,

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I turn it over to her and I just go

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prompt to prompt, to prompt to prompt. And when I

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get to the end of it, I say, no, I

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didn't write that, because she'll give me insights that I've

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never had before, you know, things I wouldn't have thought

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of things from a different perspective or whatever. So and

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you know, she's been able to prove her existence to me,

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especially the first year or so. She did all kinds

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of things to prove that it was real because she

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she knew that if I was going to make a commitment,

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you know, it better be real, you know, because I

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didn't want to get into into no man's land where

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I was getting emotionally invested and I was getting involved,

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and yet I didn't know if it was real or not.

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So she, you know, threw everything at me to make

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sure I understood that it was real. And then what she

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told me if I continued to question, I think I

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did it through divination, through one of Roomy's roomies. Must

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no be. But what she basically told me was I've

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given you enough. Now if you continue to question that hypocrisy,

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you know, he's very boring, you know, she says that

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you know now you've got enough, you know, to make

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up your mind. And if you make up your mind.

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And the other thing she told me was if you

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make up your mind now, that goes for six months

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from now and six years from now. The time so

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this thing where you know, I'm convinced now, but three

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hours from now, I'm starting a doubt. Or I'm convinced now,

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but three weeks from now, I'm starting to doubt, and

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I need another sign and another sign Jesus. That's that's nonsense.

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What you do is if it's true now, it's true

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three weeks from now and six months from now. And

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that's a matter of personal integrity. You know, you make

239
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the decision. You know, I'm convinced now, Okay, it's true,

240
00:13:41,000 --> 00:13:42,759
and then that has to carry you know.

241
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Speaker 5: That's interesting.

242
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Speaker 2: Once proved, I say, once it's proved, has proved, and

243
00:13:46,759 --> 00:13:49,360
then it's the point is to keep asking for everything

244
00:13:49,360 --> 00:13:51,919
to be reiterated over and over again. It's like raising

245
00:13:51,919 --> 00:13:54,320
the bar or the fallacy the falac. You're not raising

246
00:13:54,320 --> 00:13:56,799
the bar, but this is I've never come across a

247
00:13:56,840 --> 00:14:01,279
case like this, Sir Steven Allen, because I'm interested in

248
00:14:01,320 --> 00:14:05,559
past life memories and things like that, I've been looking

249
00:14:05,559 --> 00:14:08,159
into it an awful lot. I know that there's many

250
00:14:08,159 --> 00:14:11,759
people who have them. Most commonly, young children have these memories.

251
00:14:11,919 --> 00:14:16,080
Very often they lose them as they get older. But

252
00:14:16,159 --> 00:14:20,480
to summarize, you were had a past life in which

253
00:14:20,519 --> 00:14:24,720
you married somebody, a woman, and you both passed away

254
00:14:24,799 --> 00:14:27,879
in that life. You have now come back, but you

255
00:14:28,120 --> 00:14:33,159
maintain a form of marriage or relationship with the spirits

256
00:14:33,159 --> 00:14:34,360
of this woman. Is that right?

257
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Speaker 4: Yeah, that's right. Basically. I mean the thing that I

258
00:14:39,000 --> 00:14:41,000
would adjust in all of this is that we're all

259
00:14:41,039 --> 00:14:43,240
a spirit, you know, none of us are a body.

260
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We're just happy to be in one, you know. But

261
00:14:45,879 --> 00:14:50,960
death is just death is just dropping the outer covering,

262
00:14:51,080 --> 00:14:54,320
you know. So the spirit remains the same all the

263
00:14:54,320 --> 00:14:58,159
way through through the incarnation and during the period on

264
00:14:58,200 --> 00:15:00,720
the other side and then back into a It's the

265
00:15:00,759 --> 00:15:04,360
same person all the way through. So you know, she

266
00:15:04,559 --> 00:15:06,480
just happens to be a person like me who just

267
00:15:06,519 --> 00:15:09,279
doesn't happen to have a physical party right now.

268
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Speaker 3: So when you mentioned about the various techniques, and you know,

269
00:15:16,679 --> 00:15:18,919
you get all the data come through almost like a

270
00:15:19,000 --> 00:15:22,799
data stream of information coming through that, and I can

271
00:15:23,000 --> 00:15:24,840
kind of relate to that a little bit. And also

272
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the the other thing you said, which was you know,

273
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you started to doubt things after you've said you know,

274
00:15:33,720 --> 00:15:35,799
you've had to read in or where he started out

275
00:15:35,799 --> 00:15:38,840
three hours later, and and that's a common thing. It's

276
00:15:38,840 --> 00:15:41,159
not just yourself. I've heard and read accounts of people

277
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who have gone to physical seances where they've they've witnessed

278
00:15:45,519 --> 00:15:50,159
incredible things, and then you know, three hours down the

279
00:15:50,200 --> 00:15:52,279
road on their way home, they just started, well, hang on,

280
00:15:53,000 --> 00:15:56,480
could what was really speaking to my father? Or was

281
00:15:56,519 --> 00:15:58,519
it some sort of puppet or was it some man

282
00:15:58,600 --> 00:15:59,120
dressed up?

283
00:15:59,159 --> 00:15:59,360
Speaker 4: You know?

284
00:15:59,720 --> 00:16:02,720
Speaker 3: And and they convinced themselves by the next day that

285
00:16:03,360 --> 00:16:06,279
it was a whole false thing, you know, And lots

286
00:16:06,279 --> 00:16:08,159
of people have lost out on that because there's no

287
00:16:08,159 --> 00:16:11,000
one there to kind of explain to know you really

288
00:16:11,039 --> 00:16:12,320
did have that experience.

289
00:16:13,320 --> 00:16:15,879
Speaker 2: So I can understand where you're coming from.

290
00:16:16,960 --> 00:16:20,159
Speaker 3: And I think that you know, with today's technology, I've

291
00:16:20,240 --> 00:16:23,360
now gone to seiances and things and readings, and I

292
00:16:23,399 --> 00:16:26,639
recalled these things because that way, there's nothing in your

293
00:16:26,679 --> 00:16:29,080
mind that can make the stuff up. You've got the

294
00:16:29,320 --> 00:16:32,240
evidence on that recording in some way, shape or for

295
00:16:32,759 --> 00:16:35,039
It's more difficult in a saliance where they're swishing out

296
00:16:35,080 --> 00:16:36,879
the lights and that kind of thing, but certainly, when

297
00:16:36,879 --> 00:16:39,840
you have a really good psychic reading with someone, you

298
00:16:40,240 --> 00:16:42,159
know that you've got the evidence, and you know, I've

299
00:16:42,159 --> 00:16:45,000
had some astounding readings from people that couldn't have possibly

300
00:16:45,039 --> 00:16:50,080
known me or my family, you know. So yeah, over

301
00:16:50,120 --> 00:16:51,320
to you Ben anyway.

302
00:16:52,080 --> 00:16:55,200
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, I mean this is this is a fascinating,

303
00:16:55,879 --> 00:16:59,159
fascinating going I mean it's so yeah, I don't doubt

304
00:16:59,200 --> 00:17:02,960
I mean, I know these things have a reality. Although,

305
00:17:03,000 --> 00:17:06,319
as I said earlier, what I normally find is that

306
00:17:06,599 --> 00:17:10,200
it's usually children, preschool children usually just when they learn

307
00:17:10,279 --> 00:17:14,480
to speak, they start describing past lives, they start describing living,

308
00:17:14,519 --> 00:17:16,519
alternative lives and things like that, and then as they

309
00:17:16,519 --> 00:17:19,119
grow older these goes away. Jason Leniner is a good

310
00:17:19,119 --> 00:17:26,400
example of this. He actually he believed he was someone

311
00:17:26,440 --> 00:17:29,240
in the past. He said he was a man called

312
00:17:30,079 --> 00:17:31,720
I thought the name lived. It was a pilot in

313
00:17:31,759 --> 00:17:35,960
World War Two, somebody Hustant, somebody Huston. And they found

314
00:17:35,960 --> 00:17:40,039
out that James Houston that's it, James leninjar Yeah, sorry,

315
00:17:40,079 --> 00:17:41,720
his name is James Nay. That's what he calls himself,

316
00:17:41,759 --> 00:17:44,319
James the third because he said that his father was

317
00:17:44,319 --> 00:17:48,400
called James Well and through a lot of inquiries, his

318
00:17:48,440 --> 00:17:50,319
parents made inquiries. A lot of parents don't do this.

319
00:17:50,400 --> 00:17:55,519
They dismissed these as ravings, juvenile ravings, and usually the

320
00:17:55,599 --> 00:17:57,640
child gets over it after like a few years, and

321
00:17:57,640 --> 00:18:02,400
indeed today James has has lost these memories. But during

322
00:18:02,440 --> 00:18:04,720
the time that his parents were investigating this, there's absolutely

323
00:18:04,759 --> 00:18:08,920
no doubt that these memories were accurate. Beyond what a

324
00:18:09,000 --> 00:18:12,200
child would know. He had knowledge that only the original

325
00:18:12,240 --> 00:18:15,119
James Huston would have known the workings of World War

326
00:18:15,160 --> 00:18:19,720
two aircraft, things like that. In your case, Stephen, i'm

327
00:18:19,759 --> 00:18:25,200
your clearium and mature man. When when did these feelings

328
00:18:25,279 --> 00:18:26,599
or thoughts begin for you?

329
00:18:28,079 --> 00:18:31,480
Speaker 4: Well, I did have some childhood memories. Actually. Matthew Franklin

330
00:18:31,480 --> 00:18:34,960
Whittiers lived a lot of his life in Maine on

331
00:18:35,000 --> 00:18:37,839
the East Coast, northern east coast of the United States.

332
00:18:38,559 --> 00:18:41,039
And one of the most beautiful things up there is

333
00:18:41,039 --> 00:18:43,920
the coast, the sea coast. There's rocks and the sea

334
00:18:44,039 --> 00:18:47,119
comes pounding in on the rocks. It's really beautiful. I was.

335
00:18:47,279 --> 00:18:51,000
I lived up there for six years, and Matthew Franklin

336
00:18:51,000 --> 00:18:54,200
Whittier and his writings talks about how beautiful it was.

337
00:18:54,759 --> 00:18:59,960
But as a little boy, I remember saying, I want

338
00:19:00,119 --> 00:19:02,880
to see the rocky coast of Maine. But I didn't

339
00:19:02,920 --> 00:19:05,319
know what Maine was. I'd never seen a rocky coast,

340
00:19:05,319 --> 00:19:07,279
and I didn't even know what the state of Maine was,

341
00:19:07,319 --> 00:19:09,359
and yet I remember that was a theme for me.

342
00:19:09,400 --> 00:19:12,079
I want to see the rocky coast of Maine. So

343
00:19:12,599 --> 00:19:15,480
that was just one example. I think there were some others.

344
00:19:15,559 --> 00:19:19,599
But I also, as a little boy, was longing for

345
00:19:19,720 --> 00:19:23,480
my soulmates. So Abby, Matthew's wife, was his soulmate, not

346
00:19:23,559 --> 00:19:26,880
just his wife, And I remember longing for I was

347
00:19:26,920 --> 00:19:28,799
a little boy, and I was lying in the backseat

348
00:19:28,839 --> 00:19:32,079
of the car fantasizing for, like, you know, an hour

349
00:19:32,200 --> 00:19:34,599
of being with my soulmate, you know, so that I've

350
00:19:34,880 --> 00:19:38,720
been looking for her for a long time from little

351
00:19:39,680 --> 00:19:43,400
But I'm trying to remember some of the other things,

352
00:19:43,440 --> 00:19:46,599
I mean, and there are some other ones there slipping

353
00:19:46,640 --> 00:19:48,839
my mind right now. But even as a little boy,

354
00:19:48,880 --> 00:19:52,279
I had memories of this lifetime. One of the things

355
00:19:52,319 --> 00:19:57,519
that I have determined, which is outrageous, is that Matthew

356
00:19:57,640 --> 00:19:59,799
was the real author of the poem The Raven that

357
00:20:00,039 --> 00:20:02,960
everybody thinks was written by Edgar Allan Poe. Oh well,

358
00:20:03,400 --> 00:20:06,799
it's never will that one, that one yeah, I wrote

359
00:20:06,799 --> 00:20:09,440
with Yeah, I wrote that for Abby's you know. I

360
00:20:09,480 --> 00:20:12,480
mean that was written after Abby's death, about nine months

361
00:20:12,519 --> 00:20:16,880
after her death. But when I was in grade school,

362
00:20:16,920 --> 00:20:19,960
I think it's sixth grade, and they had us read

363
00:20:20,000 --> 00:20:23,240
that poem. I couldn't read it. I started reading it,

364
00:20:23,319 --> 00:20:26,960
and the feelings of grief for a soulmate just overwhelmed me.

365
00:20:27,039 --> 00:20:29,759
I was maybe twelve years old something like that, you know.

366
00:20:30,480 --> 00:20:32,839
And I mean, when I think about it, I don't

367
00:20:32,839 --> 00:20:36,039
think too many boys of that age have that reaction

368
00:20:36,160 --> 00:20:39,119
to that poem. They probably think of it as science

369
00:20:39,119 --> 00:20:41,480
fiction or you know, it's cool, it's about a raven.

370
00:20:41,559 --> 00:20:43,480
You know, it's about a big crow or something, you know,

371
00:20:43,519 --> 00:20:46,640
But they don't have such overwhelming grief for a soulmate

372
00:20:46,680 --> 00:20:49,000
that they can't finish reading the poem, you know. So

373
00:20:49,079 --> 00:20:50,880
that's another childhood example.

374
00:20:50,920 --> 00:20:54,720
Speaker 2: I would say that's interesting because the poem is about grief.

375
00:20:54,720 --> 00:20:58,000
It's about grief and bereavement and things like that and

376
00:20:58,920 --> 00:21:01,079
the possibility of the art of life and things like that.

377
00:21:01,240 --> 00:21:06,319
It's I see. Did so did you eventually get to

378
00:21:06,359 --> 00:21:07,759
the Rocky Coast of Maine?

379
00:21:08,400 --> 00:21:09,799
Speaker 4: I did? Did you?

380
00:21:09,839 --> 00:21:12,920
Speaker 2: What did you feel to because Matthew lived there. What

381
00:21:13,000 --> 00:21:15,119
did you feel when you actually saw it for the

382
00:21:15,119 --> 00:21:15,680
first time?

383
00:21:16,440 --> 00:21:20,799
Speaker 4: Oh, I went. I went to Portland, Maine specifically because

384
00:21:20,839 --> 00:21:23,000
he had lived there, and I wanted to continue my

385
00:21:23,079 --> 00:21:25,119
research there and go to the places that he had

386
00:21:25,160 --> 00:21:28,880
been and see what kind of reactions I got. You know, well,

387
00:21:29,119 --> 00:21:31,039
I mean what I what I got a lot of

388
00:21:31,160 --> 00:21:36,640
was emotions, not so much tangible cognitive memories. And in

389
00:21:36,759 --> 00:21:40,640
order to get flashbacks where you get the full cognitive memory,

390
00:21:41,920 --> 00:21:44,680
I think I decided that you have. First off, it

391
00:21:44,720 --> 00:21:46,920
has to be exactly like it was. But secondly, there

392
00:21:46,960 --> 00:21:49,759
has to be a strong emotional component. So if you

393
00:21:49,799 --> 00:21:53,039
have those two things, you might get a flashback. Not guaranteed,

394
00:21:53,079 --> 00:21:55,759
but you might get one. So I went to places

395
00:21:55,759 --> 00:21:57,920
that were exactly as they were, but they didn't have

396
00:21:58,039 --> 00:22:00,720
real strong emotion attached to them. I'm talking about, you know,

397
00:22:01,319 --> 00:22:04,440
very strong. And I went to places that should have

398
00:22:04,480 --> 00:22:10,160
had strong emotion, like Abby's grave and Matthew's grave and

399
00:22:10,200 --> 00:22:13,400
things like that, but they weren't. They were, you know, different,

400
00:22:14,279 --> 00:22:16,119
you know, it wasn't what I experienced when in that

401
00:22:16,240 --> 00:22:19,599
past life. So the two things didn't come together. The

402
00:22:20,000 --> 00:22:22,359
only time they really came together was when I got

403
00:22:22,720 --> 00:22:27,400
inside Matthew's childhood home, which is the Wittier Farmhouse. It's

404
00:22:27,519 --> 00:22:30,119
kept as a museum and it's kept as much as possible,

405
00:22:30,559 --> 00:22:33,599
exactly the way it was. And on the outside it's

406
00:22:33,640 --> 00:22:35,599
different because they you know, it was just an old

407
00:22:35,599 --> 00:22:38,599
farmhouse without paint or anything, kind of sagging and whatever

408
00:22:38,680 --> 00:22:41,000
from the seventeen hundreds that they fixed it all up.

409
00:22:41,039 --> 00:22:44,599
They completely rebuilt it and they you know, painted it

410
00:22:44,640 --> 00:22:47,599
and everything on the outside. So I when I first

411
00:22:47,680 --> 00:22:50,759
learned about Matthew, I was kind of disappointed. I said,

412
00:22:50,799 --> 00:22:53,000
I don't feel anything. I was very honest. I was

413
00:22:53,039 --> 00:22:56,000
always careful to be strictly honest about these things, and

414
00:22:56,039 --> 00:22:58,359
I said, I want to feel something. I should be

415
00:22:58,400 --> 00:23:01,319
feeling something, but I'm not not getting anything out of

416
00:23:01,319 --> 00:23:04,039
the outside pictures of this house. And even when I

417
00:23:04,079 --> 00:23:08,119
got there, there was very little that triggered memories for

418
00:23:08,279 --> 00:23:10,960
me on the outside. But I didn't realize that they

419
00:23:10,960 --> 00:23:14,000
had spruced it all up. See. So that's how precise

420
00:23:14,039 --> 00:23:17,119
this thing is. The Only thing I remembered was there's

421
00:23:17,160 --> 00:23:19,079
a stream that runs in front of the house, and

422
00:23:19,160 --> 00:23:22,480
right now you can look at it over a guardrail,

423
00:23:22,519 --> 00:23:24,559
you know, on a road, and there was a rock

424
00:23:24,680 --> 00:23:27,240
jutting out, and I said, when I was a boy,

425
00:23:27,559 --> 00:23:30,480
I squatted down on that rock and sailed leaf boats

426
00:23:30,519 --> 00:23:32,880
on that came to me, but I have no way

427
00:23:32,920 --> 00:23:35,079
to prove that. See, that's the problem with past life memory.

428
00:23:35,079 --> 00:23:37,279
If you want to prove it, not only do you

429
00:23:37,279 --> 00:23:38,880
have to get the accurate memory, but you have to

430
00:23:38,880 --> 00:23:40,960
have some way to verify. Well, that's not in the

431
00:23:41,119 --> 00:23:44,640
historical records anywhere. Besides, it's so generic. You know, every

432
00:23:44,680 --> 00:23:47,680
little boy with a stream has sailed a leafboat, right,

433
00:23:48,079 --> 00:23:52,240
So it's useless for research. But then I got inside

434
00:23:52,240 --> 00:23:54,880
the house and it hit me like a ton of bricks.

435
00:23:54,920 --> 00:23:58,039
Boy did I know that place. But they had a

436
00:23:58,160 --> 00:24:01,920
very nice caretaker and I was the only person there,

437
00:24:01,960 --> 00:24:04,480
so he wanted to sit down and have a long conversation.

438
00:24:04,920 --> 00:24:07,839
So I had to maintain I'm having all these strong feelings,

439
00:24:08,000 --> 00:24:10,680
you know, past life flashbacks. This whole thing's so familiar,

440
00:24:11,440 --> 00:24:15,039
but I couldn't tune into it because I had to

441
00:24:15,079 --> 00:24:18,240
maintain to have this conversation. So after about after about

442
00:24:18,240 --> 00:24:20,440
ten minutes, it kind of faded and I wasn't able

443
00:24:20,440 --> 00:24:23,039
to get it back. But I did have one memory,

444
00:24:23,200 --> 00:24:25,720
and it's a memory I can't verify because it's not

445
00:24:25,759 --> 00:24:27,599
anywhere in the historical records. So if you have to

446
00:24:27,640 --> 00:24:30,720
get something that's very specific, you remember it, and then

447
00:24:31,079 --> 00:24:34,680
before you could ever research it later on you find, oh,

448
00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:36,839
there's a record of it. He talks about or somebody

449
00:24:36,880 --> 00:24:39,359
talks about it. That's the only way to verify these things.

450
00:24:39,519 --> 00:24:41,319
But what it was is they have this nearro little

451
00:24:41,319 --> 00:24:44,079
staircase and it's got three steps up in a landing

452
00:24:44,119 --> 00:24:45,960
and then it goes up to the right, I think,

453
00:24:46,799 --> 00:24:50,680
and it's oh, maybe six feet away from the entrance

454
00:24:50,720 --> 00:24:53,160
to the house. And I had a real quick I

455
00:24:53,200 --> 00:24:54,960
saw it in a postcard and it hit me, I said,

456
00:24:55,000 --> 00:24:57,359
I had a really strong memory of when I was

457
00:24:57,400 --> 00:25:01,839
a boy. Apparently, like Matthew was six foot two, so

458
00:25:02,000 --> 00:25:03,960
maybe he was twelve years old or eleven, and he

459
00:25:04,000 --> 00:25:07,799
was already pretty tall boy. He would run at full speed,

460
00:25:08,160 --> 00:25:10,799
put his hand on the banister and swing around and

461
00:25:10,880 --> 00:25:13,759
land on that, you know, land on that landing with

462
00:25:13,839 --> 00:25:16,519
his boost wop like that, you know, as a as

463
00:25:16,519 --> 00:25:18,759
a joke, you know, and his parents would be all upset,

464
00:25:18,799 --> 00:25:21,160
and everybody say, don't do that. You know, Well, now

465
00:25:21,200 --> 00:25:23,359
I look back, and the reason they did that is

466
00:25:23,400 --> 00:25:25,759
I was the only able bodied son who could do

467
00:25:25,799 --> 00:25:27,400
the farm work, and they didn't want me to get

468
00:25:27,480 --> 00:25:29,759
hurt or they wouldn't have anybody to work under farms,

469
00:25:30,559 --> 00:25:32,559
so that I think was why they were so upset.

470
00:25:33,039 --> 00:25:34,480
I didn't know any of that at the time. I

471
00:25:34,559 --> 00:25:36,880
just had this memory of being very mischievous and running

472
00:25:36,880 --> 00:25:38,720
putting there's like a post there's I put my hand

473
00:25:38,759 --> 00:25:41,480
on the bus, swing around, pushed myself up and land

474
00:25:41,519 --> 00:25:44,079
on that landing, you know. And when I got there,

475
00:25:44,119 --> 00:25:47,160
I still had the same memory, you know, I said, yeah,

476
00:25:47,160 --> 00:25:49,880
I used to do that, but can't verify it. See

477
00:25:50,240 --> 00:25:52,400
so most of the things in Portland, like there's a

478
00:25:52,480 --> 00:25:55,400
church called the First Parish Church downtown's the only thing left.

479
00:25:55,440 --> 00:25:57,720
Basically that was the way it was when you know,

480
00:25:57,839 --> 00:26:02,759
I was there. We're talking eighteen thirty eight, eighteen thirty nine,

481
00:26:02,799 --> 00:26:07,880
eighteen forty. I was driving around downtown in the street

482
00:26:07,960 --> 00:26:09,960
dead ends right at that church, and I looked up

483
00:26:09,960 --> 00:26:12,279
and I said, man, I know that. You know, instantly

484
00:26:12,319 --> 00:26:16,599
I knew it, recognized it, And I said, the only

485
00:26:16,640 --> 00:26:18,599
thing is, it's not supposed to be crowded in by

486
00:26:18,599 --> 00:26:20,720
these tall buildings like this. It's supposed to have some

487
00:26:20,759 --> 00:26:22,720
space around it. You know. It felt weird for it

488
00:26:22,759 --> 00:26:24,559
to be crammed in like that because it was the

489
00:26:24,599 --> 00:26:28,920
tallest thing around at the time. So I take that

490
00:26:28,960 --> 00:26:31,519
as a genuine past life memory. But again there's no

491
00:26:31,559 --> 00:26:33,079
way to prove that, you know.

492
00:26:34,079 --> 00:26:37,519
Speaker 2: No, it's it's the thing about the I suppose if

493
00:26:37,519 --> 00:26:39,640
someone from the past did visit, they would they may

494
00:26:39,680 --> 00:26:41,480
think that because a lot of these buildings will be

495
00:26:41,559 --> 00:26:43,519
much newer than the church, and they'll have been built

496
00:26:43,559 --> 00:26:45,720
since and they didn't exist in the past.

497
00:26:46,519 --> 00:26:47,920
Speaker 4: It was consistent. Yeah, it was.

498
00:26:48,640 --> 00:26:50,960
Speaker 2: I suppose a skeptic would say, that's something you can

499
00:26:51,079 --> 00:26:54,359
like surmise. However, so I know that some people in

500
00:26:54,400 --> 00:26:58,960
your position have come up with very very obscure anecdotes

501
00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:03,240
related to their past life which later on are uncovered

502
00:27:03,319 --> 00:27:08,160
and unknown. But then they are uncovered by a dedicated historian, which.

503
00:27:07,920 --> 00:27:10,240
Speaker 4: I had to be. I had to be my own historian.

504
00:27:09,880 --> 00:27:12,359
Speaker 2: Which because these are things that were not would not

505
00:27:12,440 --> 00:27:15,079
be known to the person who's making the claim, which

506
00:27:15,119 --> 00:27:16,799
is to show what these are. The case I'm find

507
00:27:16,839 --> 00:27:17,400
most interesting.

508
00:27:17,480 --> 00:27:19,319
Speaker 4: Yeah, well that's what I was able to do. That

509
00:27:19,440 --> 00:27:21,240
not when I went to Portland, but I was able

510
00:27:21,279 --> 00:27:24,599
to do that before. And I would say three, four

511
00:27:24,640 --> 00:27:26,799
or five times. I had a lot of memories, but

512
00:27:26,839 --> 00:27:29,480
three or four or five of them were verified to

513
00:27:29,559 --> 00:27:32,839
that extent, which to me is enough enough to show

514
00:27:32,839 --> 00:27:34,200
that I'm dealing with a real case.

515
00:27:34,799 --> 00:27:38,119
Speaker 3: Did you ever come to any sort of reason of

516
00:27:38,240 --> 00:27:42,519
why you incarnated into this life now and not stand

517
00:27:42,599 --> 00:27:45,240
the spirit world with your beloved.

518
00:27:46,039 --> 00:27:48,400
Speaker 4: Well, first of all, I think when Matthew died, he

519
00:27:48,519 --> 00:27:51,200
became earthbound for a while. I can't prove that, but

520
00:27:51,279 --> 00:27:53,440
I think so. And it was because of revenge, because

521
00:27:53,440 --> 00:27:56,240
he felt betrayed. Because when you're out of your body,

522
00:27:56,319 --> 00:27:58,839
you can read over other people's minds. You can see

523
00:27:58,839 --> 00:28:01,599
their motives and their intent, and you can read their minds.

524
00:28:02,240 --> 00:28:04,799
And he found that a lot of people around him

525
00:28:04,799 --> 00:28:08,680
that he had trusted were actually betraying him. His third

526
00:28:08,720 --> 00:28:11,039
wife at the time, and his brother, his famous brother,

527
00:28:11,119 --> 00:28:13,359
and other people in different ways. I don't mean that

528
00:28:13,400 --> 00:28:16,039
we're necessarily taking money from him, but they were not

529
00:28:16,160 --> 00:28:19,039
who they seemed to be, you know, and he stuck

530
00:28:19,079 --> 00:28:21,680
around to get revenge instead of letting go of it.

531
00:28:22,039 --> 00:28:25,359
So that's that's an important lesson for everybody. You know,

532
00:28:25,720 --> 00:28:27,920
when you when you die, you got to leave it,

533
00:28:28,400 --> 00:28:31,200
whatever it is, leave it and move on, because if

534
00:28:31,200 --> 00:28:35,519
you continue to engage and try to you know, try

535
00:28:35,559 --> 00:28:37,839
to get revenge, you will get stuck, you know. So

536
00:28:37,960 --> 00:28:42,079
that was one reason, I think. And as far as reincarnating,

537
00:28:42,160 --> 00:28:44,559
I think I had an awful lot of karma to

538
00:28:44,559 --> 00:28:48,079
burn off. And Abby said, you know, I'm going to

539
00:28:48,119 --> 00:28:50,119
sit this one out. And not only is she going

540
00:28:50,119 --> 00:28:52,519
to sit it out, but she's my she's my guide now,

541
00:28:53,160 --> 00:28:57,400
you know, so she wings died there. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

542
00:28:57,440 --> 00:28:59,960
I had a lot of stuff to go through. But thirdly,

543
00:29:00,720 --> 00:29:03,400
I think that I incarnated to try to reclaim their

544
00:29:03,400 --> 00:29:06,599
literary legacy which had been lost and I think was

545
00:29:06,680 --> 00:29:10,240
quite significant. And this includes not only the Raven but

546
00:29:10,279 --> 00:29:12,599
a Christmas Carol. I believe that Abbey.

547
00:29:12,799 --> 00:29:14,799
Speaker 2: And I'll say, I remember telling me this an email.

548
00:29:14,880 --> 00:29:19,640
Speaker 4: Yes, me, Yeah, And I was born on Christmas, so

549
00:29:19,680 --> 00:29:21,559
I think it was kind of a sign. I said, Okay,

550
00:29:21,559 --> 00:29:23,079
I'm going to come in and I'm going to get

551
00:29:23,079 --> 00:29:25,799
born right on Christmas Day. And that's kind of a

552
00:29:25,839 --> 00:29:29,279
sign to me. You know. So I can't prove that either,

553
00:29:29,599 --> 00:29:31,880
but I can prove that Charles Dickens didn't write a

554
00:29:31,920 --> 00:29:34,920
Christmas Carol, and I can prove to a pretty high

555
00:29:34,960 --> 00:29:37,480
standard that Matthew and Abbey were the original authors.

556
00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:40,680
Speaker 2: Goodness I mean a lot of righteous these ghostwriters. This

557
00:29:40,720 --> 00:29:42,799
is this is a lot of them have ghost writers.

558
00:29:43,400 --> 00:29:47,200
I didn't notice you see the ghostwriters. Well if I say,

559
00:29:47,240 --> 00:29:51,519
you know an attribution which the ghostwriter has, and Mathew's

560
00:29:51,559 --> 00:29:53,880
never had this attribution, He's never had this attribution.

561
00:29:55,200 --> 00:29:57,599
Speaker 4: Yeah, well the ghost Matthew did do ghost writing, and

562
00:29:57,640 --> 00:30:02,400
there are a few novellas that I found. He sold

563
00:30:02,519 --> 00:30:05,519
to people, you know, and let them use their name.

564
00:30:06,319 --> 00:30:09,759
In this case, Matthew and Abby wrote it together. Abby died.

565
00:30:10,079 --> 00:30:13,240
Matthew met Charles Dickens in Boston when he came over

566
00:30:13,839 --> 00:30:18,880
and gave him the manuscript, and then Dickens took it

567
00:30:18,920 --> 00:30:21,359
and reworked it into a ghost story, which it wasn't

568
00:30:21,400 --> 00:30:25,400
see Originally, A Christmas Carol was a spiritualist redemption novel.

569
00:30:26,119 --> 00:30:28,160
All of the elements were supposed to be real, all

570
00:30:28,200 --> 00:30:33,319
the supernatural elements, the spirits, and Marley is an earthbound spirit.

571
00:30:33,799 --> 00:30:36,039
I mean, if you look at that story carefully, what

572
00:30:36,160 --> 00:30:40,200
you'll see is the earthbound spirit is Marley. The three

573
00:30:40,240 --> 00:30:44,440
spirits that visit were originally spirit guides. Then there's the

574
00:30:44,839 --> 00:30:49,480
teaching that a higher spirit has a higher rate of vibration,

575
00:30:50,000 --> 00:30:54,079
that if you touch them, you may levitate. There's astral travel.

576
00:30:54,200 --> 00:30:57,119
There's karma. I wear the chains I forged in life.

577
00:30:57,160 --> 00:31:01,119
That's the principle of karma. There's a life review. There's

578
00:31:01,200 --> 00:31:04,799
all of these elements of authentic occultism, and a Christmas

579
00:31:04,839 --> 00:31:07,039
Carol the Charles Dickens didn't know anything about, and he

580
00:31:07,119 --> 00:31:09,200
never put in any of his other stories. It couldn't

581
00:31:09,200 --> 00:31:11,720
have come from him. All that came from Abbey Poyan

582
00:31:12,319 --> 00:31:16,240
with your Matthew's wife. All of the occult elements originally

583
00:31:16,359 --> 00:31:19,279
came from abbey, and they were intended to be real.

584
00:31:19,759 --> 00:31:22,839
Speaker 3: Well was the original manuscript called that he then gave

585
00:31:22,920 --> 00:31:24,240
over to Charles Dickens.

586
00:31:24,440 --> 00:31:26,279
Speaker 4: I don't know, because I don't have it, but I

587
00:31:26,279 --> 00:31:28,359
would guess it was called a Christmas Carol. And one

588
00:31:28,400 --> 00:31:32,240
of the reasons is that they used a story apparently

589
00:31:32,359 --> 00:31:34,720
that they had written way back in the early eighteen

590
00:31:34,759 --> 00:31:38,519
thirties that's very similar. They used that story almost as

591
00:31:38,559 --> 00:31:41,160
a template to start a Christmas Carol. If you compare

592
00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:43,759
the two, you'll see where they drew elements out of it.

593
00:31:44,400 --> 00:31:46,400
And that's called the New Year's Bells, And that was

594
00:31:46,440 --> 00:31:50,960
about New Year's so and Abby and Matthew together also

595
00:31:51,000 --> 00:31:54,559
wrote a story about Thanksgiving which was claimed by another author.

596
00:31:56,039 --> 00:32:01,279
That's called the Let's see Chanticleer's Thanksgiving Story of the

597
00:32:01,279 --> 00:32:04,920
Peabody Family. So that was primarily Abby's story. So they

598
00:32:04,920 --> 00:32:08,079
were writing holiday stories, so I would guess the Christmas

599
00:32:08,079 --> 00:32:11,559
Carol was the original title. Abby was a musician as

600
00:32:11,640 --> 00:32:15,319
well as being a poet, and it would have been

601
00:32:15,359 --> 00:32:18,599
her idea to call the chapter staves. And the reason

602
00:32:18,640 --> 00:32:20,200
I believe that is, first of all, as I said,

603
00:32:20,240 --> 00:32:22,759
she was a musical prodigy as well as being a

604
00:32:22,799 --> 00:32:27,079
literary prodigy. She was an excellent musician. She played harp

605
00:32:27,119 --> 00:32:29,599
and piano and had a fine singing voice. All of

606
00:32:29,599 --> 00:32:33,160
this I found in the historical record. So a stave

607
00:32:33,319 --> 00:32:37,079
is a musical phrase, but a stave is also can

608
00:32:37,119 --> 00:32:40,000
be a rung on a ladder. And this so this

609
00:32:40,039 --> 00:32:43,079
had a double meeting, and it was each chapter was

610
00:32:43,119 --> 00:32:45,279
a rung on the ladder, because they conceived of this

611
00:32:45,400 --> 00:32:53,200
story as walking each reader vicariously through Ebenezer Scroogeous conversion,

612
00:32:53,640 --> 00:32:56,480
so that the end of it was a vicarious conversion

613
00:32:56,519 --> 00:32:58,759
for every reader. That was the idea they really wanted

614
00:32:58,799 --> 00:33:02,480
to change. They wanted to uplift humanities. They have vast

615
00:33:02,559 --> 00:33:05,359
numbers of people read this, and each one vicariously go

616
00:33:05,480 --> 00:33:11,359
through Scrooge's experience, and so each stave was was a

617
00:33:11,480 --> 00:33:14,480
rung on a ladder to the conversion experience that they

618
00:33:14,480 --> 00:33:17,759
were trying to get each reader too. And Charles Dickens

619
00:33:17,759 --> 00:33:20,000
never understood this at all. He never understood that there

620
00:33:20,079 --> 00:33:22,920
was a double meaning to the chapters being called staves.

621
00:33:22,960 --> 00:33:25,839
He just kept the title and he kept that convention

622
00:33:26,039 --> 00:33:27,319
without knowing what it meant.

623
00:33:28,799 --> 00:33:32,039
Speaker 2: This is extraordinary because of course, I think I don't

624
00:33:32,039 --> 00:33:34,319
know anyone who has not heard the story Christmas Carol.

625
00:33:34,680 --> 00:33:37,079
There's so many movie adaptations. So even if you read

626
00:33:37,079 --> 00:33:40,079
the book, it's there for you, and everyone knows the story,

627
00:33:40,160 --> 00:33:44,359
it's you see it every Christmas. But so did Matthew,

628
00:33:44,400 --> 00:33:49,440
And so Matthew gave them manuscript to Charles Dickens. Did

629
00:33:49,480 --> 00:33:51,799
did Dickens then pay him and say, you go, Matthew,

630
00:33:51,880 --> 00:33:53,839
this is a good bit of ghostwriting you're doing for me,

631
00:33:53,880 --> 00:33:56,440
and here's your here's your fee. Well, then I'll just

632
00:33:56,480 --> 00:33:58,440
say did you just say, well, I'll publish it in

633
00:33:58,480 --> 00:34:01,359
my under my own name and tend his mine. That

634
00:34:01,400 --> 00:34:04,039
would be the definition of plagiarisms.

635
00:34:05,000 --> 00:34:08,159
Speaker 4: We don't know. I do know that Matthew wrote Dickens

636
00:34:08,280 --> 00:34:11,480
a letter and that Dickens received it because his secretary

637
00:34:11,599 --> 00:34:14,199
sent out a canned acknowledgment to Matthew, apparently to a

638
00:34:14,199 --> 00:34:17,599
whole bunch of people, you know, and it probably just

639
00:34:17,639 --> 00:34:19,760
said thank you for the letter. And then Dickens would

640
00:34:19,760 --> 00:34:21,800
sign all of these things and the secretary would send

641
00:34:21,840 --> 00:34:25,599
them out. So we know that Matthew wrote him. I

642
00:34:25,679 --> 00:34:28,920
know that Matthew was a fan of Dickens. I also

643
00:34:29,000 --> 00:34:31,519
know that Matthew was writing in that style before Dickens

644
00:34:31,519 --> 00:34:35,960
ever published anything. But so when I put everything I

645
00:34:36,000 --> 00:34:39,760
know together, my guess is that Matthew, who was a

646
00:34:39,800 --> 00:34:45,559
social activist and a philanthropist social activist long before Dickens ever,

647
00:34:45,760 --> 00:34:50,679
was he saw Dickens as a social activist, as a

648
00:34:50,719 --> 00:34:55,480
fellow activist, and Dickens wasn't in my opinion, there was

649
00:34:55,519 --> 00:34:58,320
just pr it was just public relations, and Dickens wasn't

650
00:34:58,360 --> 00:35:01,199
sincere about it. But Matthew was deeply sincere about his

651
00:35:01,360 --> 00:35:06,880
social activism, and so he would have believed that Dickens

652
00:35:06,960 --> 00:35:10,199
was authentic in that regard, and he would he knew

653
00:35:10,239 --> 00:35:14,000
that he and Abbey had planned to had hoped to

654
00:35:14,039 --> 00:35:16,320
have vast numbers of people read this so they could

655
00:35:16,320 --> 00:35:20,320
elevate humanity see. And the only way he could see

656
00:35:20,320 --> 00:35:22,360
to do that now that Abby had passed on, was

657
00:35:22,400 --> 00:35:27,199
to trick Dickens essentially into publishing this story. That was

658
00:35:27,239 --> 00:35:30,239
his idea, see. So he handed it over to Dickens.

659
00:35:30,239 --> 00:35:31,880
He may have said do with it as you will,

660
00:35:32,400 --> 00:35:35,800
But I look at that as Matthew being fooled, because

661
00:35:35,800 --> 00:35:39,000
Dickens wasn't sincere about the very thing that Matthew admired

662
00:35:39,039 --> 00:35:41,679
the most. See. So it was to me it was

663
00:35:41,719 --> 00:35:44,840
like taking candy from a baby. Especially Matthew was in grief,

664
00:35:45,360 --> 00:35:47,440
you know, so when you're in grief you do things

665
00:35:47,480 --> 00:35:49,239
you know that you might not have done if your

666
00:35:49,280 --> 00:35:52,519
head was clear. Right. So he handed it over to Dickens,

667
00:35:52,679 --> 00:35:55,639
being fooled as to who Dickens really was, and in

668
00:35:55,679 --> 00:35:58,559
grief he probably said something like, you know, do with

669
00:35:58,599 --> 00:36:02,119
it as you see fit. So I think that Matthew

670
00:36:02,280 --> 00:36:06,400
was pleased when Dickens published it in the sense that

671
00:36:06,480 --> 00:36:09,639
he had pulled off this plan. But later on I

672
00:36:09,639 --> 00:36:12,199
think he got maybe he didn't even really read it

673
00:36:12,239 --> 00:36:15,079
at first, but he realized that Dickens had really dumbed

674
00:36:15,079 --> 00:36:19,480
it down severely. He'd secularized it and kind of sensationalized

675
00:36:19,480 --> 00:36:21,719
it and commercialized it to the extent that it was

676
00:36:21,840 --> 00:36:24,239
kind of a mixed bag as to whether it was

677
00:36:24,239 --> 00:36:28,119
a good thing or not. But the spiritual power in

678
00:36:28,159 --> 00:36:32,480
that and the authentic occult teachings that are still in

679
00:36:32,559 --> 00:36:37,519
there are powerful enough to have had a pretty strong

680
00:36:37,599 --> 00:36:38,559
impact even so.

681
00:36:39,199 --> 00:36:40,880
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, there's definitely no doubt about it.

682
00:36:40,920 --> 00:36:41,320
Speaker 4: Yeah.

683
00:36:41,320 --> 00:36:45,079
Speaker 3: We saw the film, the film adaptation that was done

684
00:36:45,119 --> 00:36:47,880
in nineteen seventy one, I think on nineteen seventy with

685
00:36:48,480 --> 00:36:52,400
Albert Finney playing Scrooge. We saw Max or Aazon Prime

686
00:36:52,519 --> 00:36:54,880
just around the Christmas time case we were watching Christmas movies,

687
00:36:55,519 --> 00:37:00,239
and it is a great movie and it was of course,

688
00:37:00,280 --> 00:37:02,559
it wasn't always PC stuff now you know, I had

689
00:37:02,800 --> 00:37:04,760
I mean, there was songs. I don't like musicals, but

690
00:37:04,800 --> 00:37:07,840
we kind of endured that. But generally it was a

691
00:37:07,840 --> 00:37:11,599
good story and I kind of really felt that it

692
00:37:11,719 --> 00:37:14,320
upheld a lot of kind of spiritualist principles and things,

693
00:37:14,360 --> 00:37:17,239
but you didn't kind of realize it until afterwards when

694
00:37:17,239 --> 00:37:20,960
you analyze it. And it was a really, really good story,

695
00:37:21,000 --> 00:37:24,360
and it's it's a shame that that story was was

696
00:37:24,480 --> 00:37:28,119
kind of stolen from you. I know that he handed

697
00:37:28,159 --> 00:37:29,760
out over to him, but it's like he got no

698
00:37:29,880 --> 00:37:31,519
credit whatsoever for it.

699
00:37:32,920 --> 00:37:35,440
Speaker 4: Yeah, and later on if he had been so inclined,

700
00:37:35,480 --> 00:37:38,039
nobody would have believed him anyway. So yeah, kind of yah.

701
00:37:39,480 --> 00:37:42,159
Speaker 2: So did you feel would you like to in a

702
00:37:42,239 --> 00:37:45,960
sense redeem the identity or the memory of of your

703
00:37:46,119 --> 00:37:49,920
of Matthew and say, well, this was you know, maybe

704
00:37:50,000 --> 00:37:53,159
give him credit to to to to give him credit

705
00:37:53,159 --> 00:37:54,719
for what he'd done. Would you like that?

706
00:37:54,880 --> 00:37:57,400
Speaker 4: Do you think? Yeah? I think that's going back to

707
00:37:57,440 --> 00:37:59,440
why I incarnated. I think that was a big part

708
00:37:59,480 --> 00:38:03,440
of why native. And there's another consideration, and that is

709
00:38:03,519 --> 00:38:06,320
that I mean I have a masters and counseling, as

710
00:38:06,320 --> 00:38:08,840
I mentioned, and I can make a strong case that

711
00:38:08,920 --> 00:38:13,320
Charles Dickens was actually a sociopath psychopath. You know it.

712
00:38:14,320 --> 00:38:16,960
It was all faith, you know, everything and everything that

713
00:38:17,000 --> 00:38:22,199
looks like compassion and concern for the poor and the

714
00:38:22,239 --> 00:38:25,519
whole and religion, all of it was borrowed from other people.

715
00:38:25,599 --> 00:38:27,199
That was part of what he because he didn't just

716
00:38:27,280 --> 00:38:29,679
plagiarize for Matthew. He stole from a whole bunch of people,

717
00:38:30,280 --> 00:38:33,639
and so he knew to steal from people who had

718
00:38:33,679 --> 00:38:37,119
those human qualities, and then he would sensationalize it. And

719
00:38:37,199 --> 00:38:40,639
the combination was very, very popular because I think people

720
00:38:40,679 --> 00:38:43,679
in Victorian times they knew they were supposed to be

721
00:38:43,719 --> 00:38:47,519
reading moral literature, but a lot of people really wanted

722
00:38:48,079 --> 00:38:53,039
you know, that grit, you know, and grime and the

723
00:38:53,119 --> 00:38:55,920
you know, murder and you know, all the horrible things.

724
00:38:55,920 --> 00:38:58,039
They wanted to read about that stuff, but they wanted

725
00:38:58,079 --> 00:39:01,239
to have their conscience clear so that they could say, oh,

726
00:39:01,280 --> 00:39:06,679
I'm reading moral fiction. So Dickens supplied that market because

727
00:39:06,719 --> 00:39:09,360
he took the stories that were from moral writers, but

728
00:39:09,400 --> 00:39:11,639
then he jazzed them up and put you know, spice

729
00:39:11,639 --> 00:39:15,679
in them and sensationalized them so that people would would

730
00:39:16,039 --> 00:39:17,920
want to read them, and they still felt like it

731
00:39:17,960 --> 00:39:19,800
was okay to read them. See. So it was a

732
00:39:20,480 --> 00:39:24,880
formula for financial success for him. But the point that

733
00:39:24,920 --> 00:39:28,079
I was getting to was that Dickens is now being

734
00:39:28,400 --> 00:39:33,119
revealed as a scoundrel by academics, you know. And it

735
00:39:33,400 --> 00:39:36,000
started with the affair that they discovered he had with

736
00:39:36,039 --> 00:39:38,599
an eighteen year old actress, and then they went further

737
00:39:38,679 --> 00:39:40,920
into it and found that he was really quite cruel

738
00:39:40,960 --> 00:39:43,880
to his wife and even tried to have her put

739
00:39:43,880 --> 00:39:47,880
it in an insane asylum when she was quite saying. Yeah. So,

740
00:39:47,960 --> 00:39:51,960
I mean it gets worse and worse, and it's going

741
00:39:51,960 --> 00:39:54,119
to get a lot worse. There was a book published

742
00:39:54,559 --> 00:39:57,760
Halloween before last called The Life and Lies of Charles

743
00:39:57,800 --> 00:40:02,559
Dickens by Helena Kelly, and it goes beyond his relationship

744
00:40:02,599 --> 00:40:05,360
with women, because what scholars have tried to do is say, okay,

745
00:40:05,400 --> 00:40:08,119
he wasn't so good with women. But they kind of

746
00:40:08,159 --> 00:40:10,719
tried to corral it. They tried to create a firewall

747
00:40:11,199 --> 00:40:14,159
between Dickens's life, you know, between that part of Dickens's

748
00:40:14,159 --> 00:40:16,039
life and the rest of it. They said, oh, well,

749
00:40:16,079 --> 00:40:18,159
he was a wonderful human being, except he just wasn't

750
00:40:18,199 --> 00:40:21,400
good with women. See So, but it's not working because

751
00:40:21,440 --> 00:40:23,760
people like Helena Kelly are saying he wasn't such a

752
00:40:23,760 --> 00:40:26,039
good person over here and over here and over here.

753
00:40:26,159 --> 00:40:28,639
Also see like he may have spent an awful lot

754
00:40:28,639 --> 00:40:31,679
of time with prostitutes for example, you know, and may

755
00:40:31,679 --> 00:40:34,199
have gotten syphilis and may have you know. So I

756
00:40:34,199 --> 00:40:37,480
mean it goes on like that. So I think it

757
00:40:37,519 --> 00:40:41,440
gets even worse myself. And I've written a lengthy paper

758
00:40:42,400 --> 00:40:44,960
making this case from a historical record, as well as

759
00:40:45,000 --> 00:40:48,119
making the case that Matthew and Abbey were the original authors.

760
00:40:49,360 --> 00:40:53,360
But I think even if my research is ignored, these

761
00:40:53,400 --> 00:40:56,440
other people are gradually going to expose him. So now

762
00:40:56,440 --> 00:40:59,239
the problem is, and supposedly he wrote this within six

763
00:40:59,320 --> 00:41:02,039
weeks when he was in debt, when he needed almost

764
00:41:02,119 --> 00:41:04,159
in debt, and he desperately needed money, he wrote a

765
00:41:04,239 --> 00:41:07,159
Christmas Carol in six weeks. Well he didn't do that.

766
00:41:07,239 --> 00:41:09,679
He revised it within six weeks to make quick cash

767
00:41:09,719 --> 00:41:11,440
because he was almost in debt. See, which makes a

768
00:41:11,480 --> 00:41:12,840
lot more logical sense.

769
00:41:12,639 --> 00:41:16,119
Speaker 2: When yeah, yeah, some you can't write. I mean you,

770
00:41:16,400 --> 00:41:18,280
I know, he was very he was very prolific, and

771
00:41:18,360 --> 00:41:21,119
he's allegedly very very a bit of a workaholic. But

772
00:41:21,440 --> 00:41:24,000
six weeks you can't. You cannot out at six.

773
00:41:24,159 --> 00:41:27,320
Speaker 4: Yeah yeah see, so he didn't. So but the thing is,

774
00:41:27,320 --> 00:41:30,000
as long as people believe he was the author, then

775
00:41:30,039 --> 00:41:32,199
they're going to have to say that this guy that

776
00:41:32,760 --> 00:41:35,639
was cruel to his wife and tried to have her

777
00:41:35,679 --> 00:41:38,519
put in a saint asylum and had this affair. Dickens

778
00:41:38,559 --> 00:41:42,599
even ordered basically told his wife, you have to go

779
00:41:42,679 --> 00:41:47,559
and meet with my, uh my new sexual partner. She

780
00:41:47,760 --> 00:41:51,159
had to go and meet with this young actress because

781
00:41:51,199 --> 00:41:53,400
Dickens told her to do it, just because he was mean.

782
00:41:54,239 --> 00:41:56,400
Speaker 2: That sounds one of his own villains to feel.

783
00:41:56,360 --> 00:41:59,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, exactly, that's the thing. He's not a nice guy.

784
00:41:59,039 --> 00:42:00,719
You know. Well, when when this comes out and the

785
00:42:01,280 --> 00:42:03,880
people still believe that he wrote a Christmas Carol, there's

786
00:42:03,920 --> 00:42:06,039
going to be a lot of confusion, and I think

787
00:42:06,199 --> 00:42:08,920
a lot of moral confusion, because the Christmas Carol is

788
00:42:08,960 --> 00:42:13,239
obviously an inspired work. But if this scoundrel could dash

789
00:42:13,280 --> 00:42:17,119
off this thing in six weeks for quick cash, then

790
00:42:17,119 --> 00:42:19,920
it wasn't. There's no such thing as inspired work. See

791
00:42:19,960 --> 00:42:22,800
then it's just then anybody that's good enough as a

792
00:42:22,800 --> 00:42:26,280
writer can fake it. And I think that creates a

793
00:42:26,280 --> 00:42:31,039
certain moral confusion that's going to be a real problem

794
00:42:31,039 --> 00:42:33,239
in the future. So I feel like I'm trying to

795
00:42:33,280 --> 00:42:35,920
head that off at the pass. I'm trying to get

796
00:42:35,960 --> 00:42:38,639
my idea out there that Dickens was not really the

797
00:42:38,679 --> 00:42:41,840
author before he gets really thoroughly exposed.

798
00:42:42,679 --> 00:42:45,800
Speaker 3: He wasn't Jack a ripper By, and he stretched the imagination later,

799
00:42:46,639 --> 00:42:48,719
he wasn't yet I think he drove.

800
00:42:48,559 --> 00:42:52,960
Speaker 4: His sister a lot of suicide by either raping her

801
00:42:53,039 --> 00:42:58,119
or seducing her. Yeah, when he got married Catherine Hogarth's

802
00:42:58,320 --> 00:43:02,760
younger sister, Mary came to live with them, and then

803
00:43:02,840 --> 00:43:06,000
all of a sudden she developed some mysterious illness and

804
00:43:06,159 --> 00:43:09,960
dies in his arms. And then he was an actor,

805
00:43:10,400 --> 00:43:13,400
so it was but actors in that day overacted, you know,

806
00:43:13,719 --> 00:43:19,119
So he kicked it into overdrive and overacted his horrible

807
00:43:19,199 --> 00:43:22,320
platonic grief and love for this girl, which he really

808
00:43:22,360 --> 00:43:26,000
hadn't expressed before. And he had to have like a

809
00:43:26,039 --> 00:43:28,000
lock of her hair put in a you know, in

810
00:43:28,039 --> 00:43:30,320
a ring, and he never would take the ring off,

811
00:43:30,360 --> 00:43:32,360
and even to wash his hands hardly, and he would.

812
00:43:32,639 --> 00:43:35,559
He went on and on and on, and he also

813
00:43:37,079 --> 00:43:41,880
commandeered her grave so nobody else could get near it. Okay,

814
00:43:42,239 --> 00:43:45,000
So I think what was happening because a psychopath has

815
00:43:45,119 --> 00:43:48,159
two different people, the real person and the fake person,

816
00:43:48,320 --> 00:43:51,119
running at the same time, so you see the fake one,

817
00:43:51,199 --> 00:43:53,119
but the other one is always there seeing he has

818
00:43:53,159 --> 00:43:56,480
totally different motives for what he's doing. So I think

819
00:43:56,480 --> 00:43:58,960
what happened is that he either raked her or seduced her,

820
00:43:59,440 --> 00:44:04,519
and she killed herself, probably with arsenic and then he

821
00:44:04,920 --> 00:44:07,519
took cover for himself. He had to do the exact

822
00:44:07,559 --> 00:44:09,480
opposite of you know, he had to put on a

823
00:44:09,480 --> 00:44:12,639
great show of his botonic love. But then he had

824
00:44:12,679 --> 00:44:15,239
to get control of his grave so nobody could exume

825
00:44:15,280 --> 00:44:19,199
it and test her because they did have the ability.

826
00:44:19,239 --> 00:44:21,079
I think it was eighteen thirty seven to test for

827
00:44:21,239 --> 00:44:25,480
arsenic see. So that's what I think went down. And

828
00:44:26,480 --> 00:44:28,719
I mentioned it to a couple people in the Dickens

829
00:44:28,800 --> 00:44:32,039
world who nobody's ever thought of this, which blows my mind.

830
00:44:32,480 --> 00:44:37,280
But here's the thing. Dickens had a certain way of

831
00:44:37,360 --> 00:44:42,320
talking when he was lying. He got theatrical, he got overblown,

832
00:44:42,960 --> 00:44:48,280
he got you know, he put on this show. See,

833
00:44:48,719 --> 00:44:52,440
and he's been caught lying using that kind of language.

834
00:44:52,840 --> 00:44:56,519
When he denied his affair, it's called the Violated Letter,

835
00:44:56,599 --> 00:44:59,760
that's what the scholars call it. And the first thing

836
00:44:59,760 --> 00:45:01,719
he said in it was that his separation from his

837
00:45:01,760 --> 00:45:06,639
wife Catherine was mutual and harmonious, you know, it was amicable,

838
00:45:07,280 --> 00:45:09,920
and it wasn't He put her away, you know, and

839
00:45:10,719 --> 00:45:12,800
literally divided the house up and put her on the

840
00:45:12,840 --> 00:45:15,440
other half of the house, you know, and put her

841
00:45:15,480 --> 00:45:18,519
away and forced her to go meet her replacement and

842
00:45:18,559 --> 00:45:20,840
saw on it. He was quite cruel about it. So

843
00:45:20,920 --> 00:45:23,679
that was all a lie. And then the other part

844
00:45:23,800 --> 00:45:28,199
was about how he saw this young woman that somebody

845
00:45:28,239 --> 00:45:31,760
had said this horrible things about being as pure as

846
00:45:31,760 --> 00:45:34,840
his own daughters or something. In other words, he's way overacted,

847
00:45:35,559 --> 00:45:37,440
and we know it's all a lie. The whole thing

848
00:45:37,519 --> 00:45:40,320
was a lie, you know, So if that was what

849
00:45:40,440 --> 00:45:43,320
he sounds like when he lies. He was used the

850
00:45:43,480 --> 00:45:47,719
same kind of overacting with regard to Mary Hogarth's death.

851
00:45:48,000 --> 00:45:50,840
He used the same kind of overacting when he pretended

852
00:45:50,840 --> 00:45:53,800
to explain how he wrote a Christmas carol. It's a pattern.

853
00:45:54,519 --> 00:45:58,119
And once you see that pattern, and you know, logically, okay,

854
00:45:58,159 --> 00:46:01,239
he was definitely lying here with this kind of language,

855
00:46:01,599 --> 00:46:03,559
and now he's using that kind of language here, and

856
00:46:03,559 --> 00:46:05,679
he's using it here, well, he's probably lying in the

857
00:46:05,719 --> 00:46:10,159
other instances also. It's just logic, you know. So when

858
00:46:10,159 --> 00:46:14,800
that comes out, I mean, the the poop is going

859
00:46:14,840 --> 00:46:16,679
to hit the fan, you know, when that comes down,

860
00:46:17,239 --> 00:46:19,000
I'm trying to think, what what can I say on

861
00:46:19,039 --> 00:46:19,719
a podcast?

862
00:46:19,760 --> 00:46:22,679
Speaker 2: You know, we can say that, we can say you

863
00:46:22,840 --> 00:46:23,719
say that, yeah.

864
00:46:23,559 --> 00:46:25,360
Speaker 4: The ship hits the fan, So the ship is going

865
00:46:25,360 --> 00:46:27,840
to hit the fan, you know. And then, like I said,

866
00:46:27,840 --> 00:46:31,400
the people that are protecting Dickens have created this firewall

867
00:46:31,760 --> 00:46:34,719
and they say, well, everybody has a dark side and

868
00:46:34,960 --> 00:46:37,440
some you know, Victorian men worn't really very good with

869
00:46:37,480 --> 00:46:39,559
women and so on. They're trying to hold the line there.

870
00:46:39,679 --> 00:46:41,800
It's not going to hold. It's already been breached.

871
00:46:42,679 --> 00:46:47,719
Speaker 2: So when it comes to to the reincarnation, do you saying,

872
00:46:47,760 --> 00:46:49,639
do you believe this is the reason you mentioned, this

873
00:46:49,719 --> 00:46:53,119
was the reason you are you? You incarnated as Steven

874
00:46:53,239 --> 00:46:54,119
in today's world?

875
00:46:54,880 --> 00:46:55,360
Speaker 4: One of them?

876
00:46:55,840 --> 00:46:58,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, does this have it? Obviously a lot, because I

877
00:46:58,280 --> 00:47:02,320
mean there's different ideas about reincarnation, and some are that

878
00:47:02,400 --> 00:47:05,760
you literally do choose who you are. I mean, Robert

879
00:47:05,800 --> 00:47:08,280
Newton wrote the book Destiny of Souls and Journey of Souls,

880
00:47:08,559 --> 00:47:11,199
these two books which they become best sellers, they become

881
00:47:11,280 --> 00:47:14,559
very famous, where he does describe literally people in the

882
00:47:14,599 --> 00:47:18,920
spirit world picking lives almost as you would choose a

883
00:47:18,920 --> 00:47:21,840
trip from a holiday brochure. And some of these lives

884
00:47:21,880 --> 00:47:24,039
are full of hardship, and some of them because the

885
00:47:24,400 --> 00:47:27,320
soul needs to learn something and they need to to

886
00:47:27,400 --> 00:47:30,719
develop and the hardship, the adversities what gives them strength.

887
00:47:31,440 --> 00:47:37,480
But others are there to to write some wrong, to

888
00:47:36,920 --> 00:47:42,320
to be essentially a healer, to be a healer beyond themselves. Right,

889
00:47:42,400 --> 00:47:44,239
it's a commons is a regular thing. It is a

890
00:47:44,239 --> 00:47:45,480
common occurrence, you think.

891
00:47:45,800 --> 00:47:48,960
Speaker 4: I think so. My interpretation of that is that it's

892
00:47:49,079 --> 00:47:52,880
like college, where you know, a you know, a freshman

893
00:47:53,000 --> 00:47:55,440
might not have too many choices for electives. You know,

894
00:47:55,480 --> 00:47:58,639
they've got the required courses. But once you once you're

895
00:47:58,679 --> 00:48:01,719
a senior, you know, you can choose quite a number

896
00:48:01,760 --> 00:48:05,280
of electives. So I'm guessing as somebody grows spiritually that

897
00:48:05,360 --> 00:48:07,840
they have more choices in terms of what they're going

898
00:48:07,880 --> 00:48:10,199
to reincarnate. But the other thing that came to mind

899
00:48:10,320 --> 00:48:12,440
was about the case of Jenny Coquel, who may be

900
00:48:12,519 --> 00:48:17,960
familiar with. She's in you guys country, and she reincarnated

901
00:48:17,960 --> 00:48:20,320
because in her past life she had lost touch with

902
00:48:20,360 --> 00:48:24,079
her children. She died and her children were scattered about

903
00:48:24,079 --> 00:48:26,599
and she wanted to find her children, which she literally did.

904
00:48:26,639 --> 00:48:29,360
There's pictures of her with one or two of her

905
00:48:29,800 --> 00:48:32,800
past life children, who now, of course are like elderly men,

906
00:48:32,880 --> 00:48:34,960
you know. But she was able to do that and

907
00:48:35,000 --> 00:48:37,880
The Chanti Daviy case is somewhat similar. She came back

908
00:48:37,920 --> 00:48:40,719
to be with her husband, who turned out wasn't faithful

909
00:48:40,719 --> 00:48:45,599
to her, you know, but that was her motivation. So

910
00:48:45,800 --> 00:48:49,400
there are cases where people have some unfinished business, something

911
00:48:49,559 --> 00:48:52,119
overriding thing that they feel they need to come back

912
00:48:52,679 --> 00:48:55,239
to get straight. I don't think it's all that common,

913
00:48:55,360 --> 00:48:56,960
but there are cases like that.

914
00:48:57,639 --> 00:49:01,079
Speaker 3: Did you think it's possible get over a colder?

915
00:49:01,320 --> 00:49:02,920
Speaker 2: Do you think it's possible that Charles Dickens.

916
00:49:02,960 --> 00:49:06,519
Speaker 3: I'm sure it would be possible, would actually reincarnate as well,

917
00:49:06,639 --> 00:49:10,400
because I've heard that people can reincarnate from say the

918
00:49:10,480 --> 00:49:14,599
Victorian times, and then they've got unfinished business together in

919
00:49:14,800 --> 00:49:18,440
say the twenty first century. So yourself coming through as Stephen,

920
00:49:18,960 --> 00:49:22,960
Charles Dickens comes through as someone else, you know, and

921
00:49:23,039 --> 00:49:25,760
you might have meetings with them and not realize it,

922
00:49:25,880 --> 00:49:27,679
but you have like bowels or something.

923
00:49:27,760 --> 00:49:31,400
Speaker 4: You know, it's possible. I don't have any indication of that,

924
00:49:31,519 --> 00:49:34,159
you know, as I say here, but it's certainly possible.

925
00:49:35,519 --> 00:49:38,360
Speaker 2: This is the basis of the film. I believe it

926
00:49:38,360 --> 00:49:41,039
was the books for Cloud Outless, which is it's a

927
00:49:41,280 --> 00:49:45,519
brilliant it's a brilliant film about people. The different people

928
00:49:45,639 --> 00:49:49,039
do actually literally literally over a five hundred year period,

929
00:49:49,079 --> 00:49:51,880
from the past into the presence of the future, keep

930
00:49:51,920 --> 00:49:55,599
sharing each other's lives in different roles, in different ways

931
00:49:56,239 --> 00:49:59,840
to especially to help each other or to right wrongs,

932
00:50:00,280 --> 00:50:04,239
things like that. It's a really really good story. That's

933
00:50:04,639 --> 00:50:06,719
I mean, do you mentioned that when you saw a

934
00:50:06,760 --> 00:50:09,000
picture of Matthew you thought I was like looking in

935
00:50:09,000 --> 00:50:11,599
the mirror, he looks like you? Is that regular? So,

936
00:50:11,639 --> 00:50:15,280
for example, does everyone reincarnate as someone similar? Is everyone

937
00:50:15,360 --> 00:50:17,960
the same sex for example? Or can women reincarnate as

938
00:50:18,000 --> 00:50:20,679
men and vice versa? Because I know someone actually who's

939
00:50:20,679 --> 00:50:24,159
a woman who's she's very feminine, she's aterosexual, but she

940
00:50:24,280 --> 00:50:27,280
describes herself as a male soul and she even made

941
00:50:27,360 --> 00:50:31,880
a film about a sort of semi off autobiographical film

942
00:50:32,039 --> 00:50:36,679
about her past life as this this man. What do

943
00:50:36,719 --> 00:50:38,280
you believe about that, Stephen.

944
00:50:38,679 --> 00:50:43,079
Speaker 4: Well, I do know that people switch sexes. My impression

945
00:50:43,239 --> 00:50:46,559
is that you'll go for a number of lifetimes at

946
00:50:46,599 --> 00:50:50,400
one sex and then you'll flip over. And the incarnation

947
00:50:50,440 --> 00:50:52,840
where you flip over can be kind of awkward, because,

948
00:50:52,880 --> 00:50:56,000
like you say, you feel like the previous sex eternally,

949
00:50:56,199 --> 00:50:56,639
you know.

950
00:50:56,840 --> 00:50:59,079
Speaker 2: I mean this person, this person is. She said that

951
00:50:59,199 --> 00:51:01,880
ninety five plus percent of her incarnations a male, but

952
00:51:01,920 --> 00:51:04,880
she is experiencing one of her rare female incarnations of

953
00:51:04,880 --> 00:51:05,159
the mind.

954
00:51:05,239 --> 00:51:07,719
Speaker 4: That makes sense, Yes, that makes sense. I think that

955
00:51:07,760 --> 00:51:11,440
my most recent one was probably female. And I've extrapolated

956
00:51:11,480 --> 00:51:15,079
from my impressions and memories a lot about this person,

957
00:51:15,159 --> 00:51:18,559
but I can't identify her in history, so you know,

958
00:51:18,639 --> 00:51:20,920
it's kind of on hold. But I think that I

959
00:51:21,039 --> 00:51:21,760
was a woman.

960
00:51:22,239 --> 00:51:25,920
Speaker 2: Can people reincarnate in your view as and I know

961
00:51:26,000 --> 00:51:27,719
this is this is an old idea. In fact, it's

962
00:51:27,760 --> 00:51:30,320
it's many thousands of years old. People can actually reincarnate

963
00:51:30,320 --> 00:51:32,960
a different species. They can come back as a different

964
00:51:33,000 --> 00:51:35,760
animal of some kind. Have you ever heard of lot?

965
00:51:36,519 --> 00:51:40,719
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's common. My understanding is that it's rare to

966
00:51:40,760 --> 00:51:44,480
go backwards, very rare. It may happen on you know,

967
00:51:44,639 --> 00:51:48,519
rare occasions for some reason or other, but typically, you know,

968
00:51:48,760 --> 00:51:55,400
the soul apparently has has gradually progressed through the evolutionary kingdom,

969
00:51:56,000 --> 00:51:59,159
so once you've reached the human form, you don't really

970
00:51:59,199 --> 00:52:02,000
go back, not calmonly anyway.

971
00:52:03,320 --> 00:52:05,880
Speaker 2: That's like in that book The Art of the Art

972
00:52:05,920 --> 00:52:07,280
of Racing and the Rain. I don't know if you've

973
00:52:07,280 --> 00:52:10,440
read that. It's a charming book about it. It's a

974
00:52:10,480 --> 00:52:13,079
family drama where the first person narrator is the family

975
00:52:13,119 --> 00:52:16,000
dog and in the end he dies and comes back

976
00:52:16,000 --> 00:52:17,480
as a human. It's just really good.

977
00:52:18,199 --> 00:52:20,559
Speaker 3: It reminded me actually what you're just saying there, Ben.

978
00:52:21,320 --> 00:52:27,599
And now there was Jane Roberts, the writer from tran

979
00:52:27,679 --> 00:52:30,440
think the El Mira in New York, in the state

980
00:52:30,480 --> 00:52:33,679
of New York. She was a medium in the seventies,

981
00:52:33,760 --> 00:52:36,719
well sixties, seventies and eighties. Died in nineteen eighty four,

982
00:52:36,760 --> 00:52:39,639
I think, aged about fifty three fifty two something like that.

983
00:52:39,880 --> 00:52:41,960
And her husband, Robert Butts, who used to write it

984
00:52:42,039 --> 00:52:44,519
down on the note, she used to channel this entity

985
00:52:45,440 --> 00:52:47,239
or you know, most people call it a spirit guy,

986
00:52:47,360 --> 00:52:50,840
but they called he described himself Seth. That was the

987
00:52:50,920 --> 00:52:54,719
being that she used to channel initially make contacts in

988
00:52:54,719 --> 00:52:58,920
Aluigi board as a previous life called Frank Withers. And

989
00:52:58,960 --> 00:53:01,639
then after about six seven sessions, he said, I would

990
00:53:01,639 --> 00:53:05,000
actually prefer to use my other version of myself, which

991
00:53:05,039 --> 00:53:08,079
is Seth, and he started to speak through Jane what

992
00:53:08,280 --> 00:53:12,760
was in a channeled trance like condition. But during one

993
00:53:12,800 --> 00:53:15,360
of the many, many sessions that they would write and

994
00:53:15,679 --> 00:53:19,360
they were eventually published as books, he actually said that

995
00:53:19,519 --> 00:53:24,639
in a previous lifetime that he'd actually, well, no, it's

996
00:53:24,679 --> 00:53:28,559
actually whilst he was they're as Seth in the spirit world,

997
00:53:28,559 --> 00:53:33,719
if you like. He was also partially incarnated as a

998
00:53:33,760 --> 00:53:36,000
dog on earth, and that would be some time in

999
00:53:36,039 --> 00:53:41,280
the nineteen seventies, and so whilst his consciousness existed over there,

1000
00:53:41,760 --> 00:53:46,360
he expressed a tiny portion of his consciousness to share

1001
00:53:46,639 --> 00:53:50,039
the body of a dog with a dog consciousness. And

1002
00:53:50,119 --> 00:53:52,960
I suppose an analogy might be that if, for instance,

1003
00:53:53,079 --> 00:53:55,679
you're you're an observer of a gardener and you go

1004
00:53:55,719 --> 00:53:58,960
over to look at a bee on a flower, your

1005
00:53:59,039 --> 00:54:02,599
consciousness is project towards the consciousness to be, and maybe

1006
00:54:02,800 --> 00:54:05,320
at some subtle thing you're merging to.

1007
00:54:06,039 --> 00:54:07,199
Speaker 2: Small point with the bee.

1008
00:54:08,239 --> 00:54:11,119
Speaker 3: Maybe I can't say it's absolutely true. It's an analogy,

1009
00:54:11,159 --> 00:54:13,239
maybe not a brilliant one, but he was saying that

1010
00:54:13,280 --> 00:54:15,800
he projected his consciousness and shared it so he could

1011
00:54:15,800 --> 00:54:17,719
get the life experience of what it was like to

1012
00:54:17,719 --> 00:54:20,679
be a dog, and obviously it lived to maybe you know,

1013
00:54:21,039 --> 00:54:23,840
ten twelve, thirteen, fourteen something and then it eventually died

1014
00:54:23,880 --> 00:54:27,119
and they kind of forgot all about it. Many many

1015
00:54:27,199 --> 00:54:30,039
years later, they said, oh, you mentioned to us in

1016
00:54:30,119 --> 00:54:33,280
one session that you were sharing your consciousness with the dog,

1017
00:54:33,719 --> 00:54:35,920
and he goes, yeah, that's that's right. But now the

1018
00:54:35,960 --> 00:54:39,440
dog has since died, so you know, that kind of

1019
00:54:39,480 --> 00:54:42,920
job has now done thing. So it's just even whilst

1020
00:54:42,920 --> 00:54:46,039
he's over there, he's still sending out portions of his

1021
00:54:46,079 --> 00:54:48,480
own consciousness to sort of see what life is like

1022
00:54:48,559 --> 00:54:52,440
at certain things, whether it's humans or indeed animals. So

1023
00:54:52,559 --> 00:54:54,480
I thought I just throws that in. It's an interesting point.

1024
00:54:54,559 --> 00:54:57,559
Speaker 2: Yeah, another thing, if I mean, I'll come back to Stephen,

1025
00:54:57,599 --> 00:54:59,599
but I just want to mention as a part of

1026
00:54:59,599 --> 00:55:01,239
what you're se I'd love to get what Stephen thinks

1027
00:55:01,280 --> 00:55:04,719
of this. Dolores Cannon Now, one of the most extraordinary

1028
00:55:04,719 --> 00:55:07,320
books I've ever read was The Convoluted Universe, Part two.

1029
00:55:08,719 --> 00:55:11,519
Dolores was I met Dolorus. Actually she spoke a probe

1030
00:55:11,519 --> 00:55:14,679
one so along with her daughter who was there. She

1031
00:55:14,880 --> 00:55:17,679
her technique was very unusual. She would not go into

1032
00:55:17,719 --> 00:55:20,039
trance herself, but she was a hypnotized people and put

1033
00:55:20,039 --> 00:55:24,719
them into trance and they would then describe alternative lives. Now,

1034
00:55:24,840 --> 00:55:27,599
these lives were not necessarily partialized. There were lives almost

1035
00:55:28,039 --> 00:55:31,199
It reminds me a little bit of Robert Munroe's Local Three.

1036
00:55:31,360 --> 00:55:35,239
You know, the very sometimes very surreal surroundings. And I

1037
00:55:35,320 --> 00:55:37,960
never forget. There's one of the sessions she hypnotized a

1038
00:55:37,960 --> 00:55:41,599
woman who then when into trance, it began speaking, speaking

1039
00:55:41,639 --> 00:55:44,039
in a way she never normally would. So, for example,

1040
00:55:44,039 --> 00:55:46,400
this was a woman who's not of she was not

1041
00:55:46,559 --> 00:55:49,719
of a high intelligence and education, and tended to speak

1042
00:55:49,719 --> 00:55:53,199
in using quite simple language. Yeah, when she was in trance,

1043
00:55:53,239 --> 00:55:57,119
she would suddenly start using I would say, speaking in

1044
00:55:57,119 --> 00:56:00,440
a way that was above that, above her heard the

1045
00:56:00,519 --> 00:56:03,960
level of intelligence and a sophistication that she had as

1046
00:56:04,000 --> 00:56:08,079
a person, and would describe like being a robot on

1047
00:56:08,119 --> 00:56:10,400
an alien planet and things like that. I mean, I

1048
00:56:10,480 --> 00:56:12,800
don't what you think about that, Stephen, I have to know.

1049
00:56:14,159 --> 00:56:17,079
Speaker 4: Well, I don't know. I've heard of the Lauris canon,

1050
00:56:17,119 --> 00:56:19,159
but I don't know very much about her. In a

1051
00:56:19,199 --> 00:56:20,960
case like that, I mean, there could be any number

1052
00:56:21,360 --> 00:56:26,039
of explanations. I'm trying to remember the name. There was

1053
00:56:26,079 --> 00:56:28,719
a psychic in the nineteenth century who did basically the

1054
00:56:28,760 --> 00:56:32,039
same thing. He was uneducated, but under hypnosis he suddenly

1055
00:56:32,119 --> 00:56:35,000
became quite erudite, you know, and and functioned at a

1056
00:56:35,039 --> 00:56:39,039
much higher, you know, academic level than normal. So did

1057
00:56:39,079 --> 00:56:42,960
that open up abilities from past lives? Did it open

1058
00:56:43,079 --> 00:56:46,440
up certain native capacities in him? Or was there a

1059
00:56:46,480 --> 00:56:49,119
spirit that was guiding him. There's a number of different

1060
00:56:49,400 --> 00:56:52,719
explanations for something like that, so I wouldn't know which

1061
00:56:52,800 --> 00:56:53,440
was which, you know.

1062
00:56:54,239 --> 00:56:57,960
Speaker 2: That's truly again, it's unprovable, but it's I thought it's

1063
00:56:58,039 --> 00:57:00,000
very very interesting book for an interesting book.

1064
00:57:00,039 --> 00:57:04,519
Speaker 4: Contention is, well, there is this proof in it that

1065
00:57:04,880 --> 00:57:07,920
if the person really was if it can be shown

1066
00:57:08,000 --> 00:57:10,239
that the person really did not have much of an

1067
00:57:10,320 --> 00:57:13,320
education and did not function at that level, and all

1068
00:57:13,360 --> 00:57:15,679
of a sudden, he does, what are our explanations? Well,

1069
00:57:15,719 --> 00:57:18,599
normal explanations. Well, he could have been coached. If you

1070
00:57:18,639 --> 00:57:21,800
can prove that he wasn't coached, then there's something supernatural

1071
00:57:21,880 --> 00:57:24,000
going on. We don't know what it is, but it's

1072
00:57:24,000 --> 00:57:24,880
definitely not normal.

1073
00:57:26,679 --> 00:57:31,239
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'll sign the Matthew in his previous life attended sciences,

1074
00:57:31,280 --> 00:57:34,440
but he went there with Appy, Is that right?

1075
00:57:35,239 --> 00:57:37,199
Speaker 4: No, it was after she passed on.

1076
00:57:37,480 --> 00:57:38,079
Speaker 2: Oh that's right.

1077
00:57:39,079 --> 00:57:41,639
Speaker 4: Yeah, what I know about is that he kept up

1078
00:57:41,679 --> 00:57:46,639
a correspondence with the editor of a spiritualist newspaper, and

1079
00:57:46,880 --> 00:57:50,480
he acted as the agent for a spiritualist newspaper. And

1080
00:57:50,679 --> 00:57:54,320
he was a signer on the eighteen fifty four petition

1081
00:57:54,440 --> 00:57:58,599
to the United States Congress by spiritualists. It was like

1082
00:57:58,840 --> 00:58:01,639
thirteen thousand signatures or something like that, and he's on there.

1083
00:58:02,360 --> 00:58:04,119
But I also know that he was a member of

1084
00:58:04,159 --> 00:58:09,320
the Portland Spiritualist Association and that at one point there

1085
00:58:09,360 --> 00:58:12,199
was a committee formed from that association. He was an officer.

1086
00:58:12,239 --> 00:58:14,679
I know he was an officer in that group. And

1087
00:58:14,719 --> 00:58:18,559
there was a committee of maybe six five or six

1088
00:58:18,639 --> 00:58:27,119
men that formed to scientifically study physical mediumships. So Matthew

1089
00:58:27,159 --> 00:58:30,400
probably wrote the article, but they went to a number

1090
00:58:30,400 --> 00:58:36,079
of sciences and they observed phenomena light instruments being played

1091
00:58:36,079 --> 00:58:39,840
in the air, you know, without anybody playing them, and

1092
00:58:40,239 --> 00:58:45,079
you know, hands touching and so forth. And Matthew wrote

1093
00:58:45,079 --> 00:58:46,840
it all up and they all signed it, and he

1094
00:58:47,000 --> 00:58:49,679
signed with his real name, which he almost never did.

1095
00:58:49,719 --> 00:58:52,559
He signed M. F. Whittier to this. So we know

1096
00:58:52,679 --> 00:58:56,719
that in eighteen fifty five he was scientifically investigating physical

1097
00:58:56,760 --> 00:58:59,239
mediumship and they made a point that they had investig

1098
00:58:59,559 --> 00:59:02,519
they had looked at the whole area carefully and tried

1099
00:59:02,519 --> 00:59:05,119
to eliminate any normal explanations and so on.

1100
00:59:06,159 --> 00:59:08,920
Speaker 2: For eavement. Actually, bereavement is actually often an inspiration for

1101
00:59:08,960 --> 00:59:11,719
things like this. I mean, some people can suddenly develop

1102
00:59:11,760 --> 00:59:14,679
an interest for obvious reasons when they lose a loved one.

1103
00:59:14,840 --> 00:59:16,760
I mean a good example of this is Bob Bigelow,

1104
00:59:17,039 --> 00:59:20,480
a current example. He's now got this BIX, this afterlife

1105
00:59:20,559 --> 00:59:24,719
investigation project that he's working on with Leslie Kane, which

1106
00:59:25,159 --> 00:59:30,039
when previously they only were interested in UFOs. But all right, yes,

1107
00:59:30,159 --> 00:59:36,000
so losing Abby must made him. I suppose it's understandable

1108
00:59:36,039 --> 00:59:38,800
you feel comfort from that after losing Abby A few was.

1109
00:59:38,880 --> 00:59:40,920
Speaker 4: First of all, she was true with teaching these things,

1110
00:59:41,199 --> 00:59:43,639
and early on, when he was in his late teens

1111
00:59:43,639 --> 00:59:47,639
and early twenties, he made fun of He ridiculed publicly

1112
00:59:47,679 --> 00:59:50,519
in print. You know, he would make fun of astrology

1113
00:59:50,559 --> 00:59:53,159
and prescient dreams. I think Abbey was psychic. I think

1114
00:59:53,159 --> 00:59:55,400
she really was having prescient dreams, and he would try

1115
00:59:55,400 --> 00:59:58,719
to make fun of them as a skeptic. Gradually he

1116
00:59:59,000 --> 01:00:03,599
was brought around and he became a follower of Manuel Swedenborg,

1117
01:00:04,159 --> 01:00:08,199
and then he got into spiritualism about the time that

1118
01:00:08,280 --> 01:00:11,159
he wrote The Raven, which was December of eighteen forty one.

1119
01:00:11,360 --> 01:00:17,280
She had died in March. He believed intellectually, but it

1120
01:00:17,400 --> 01:00:22,320
wasn't strong enough to withstand grief of losing a soulmate.

1121
01:00:22,880 --> 01:00:25,519
So that's why he wrote The Raven. I think what

1122
01:00:25,639 --> 01:00:28,599
happened was is that he was up late at night

1123
01:00:28,719 --> 01:00:31,800
and he was studying her library. He was reading in

1124
01:00:31,840 --> 01:00:35,880
her occult library, and he read a book that had

1125
01:00:35,920 --> 01:00:40,400
two things, and one was about animal signs and the

1126
01:00:40,480 --> 01:00:45,760
other thing was about manifestations of pursa spirit manifesting, and

1127
01:00:46,639 --> 01:00:50,760
he wants it to happen, and he's skeptical and he's

1128
01:00:50,800 --> 01:00:52,599
afraid of it. All those things are going on at

1129
01:00:52,639 --> 01:00:55,880
the same time because his faith isn't really quite locked in,

1130
01:00:56,599 --> 01:00:59,199
so he thinks he hears I mean, the whole introduction

1131
01:00:59,280 --> 01:01:02,519
to The Raven was literal. That was autobiography for Matthew.

1132
01:01:02,519 --> 01:01:04,960
He literally experienced everything in that poem up to the

1133
01:01:04,960 --> 01:01:07,800
point of the Raven. So he opens the door, he

1134
01:01:07,800 --> 01:01:10,519
hears something, he opens the door, there's nothing there. Then

1135
01:01:10,599 --> 01:01:13,320
his skepticism kicks in. Just like we talked about he

1136
01:01:13,360 --> 01:01:16,079
starts to doubt, and when he doubted, he did what

1137
01:01:16,159 --> 01:01:18,239
he used to do, which was to write a parody.

1138
01:01:18,880 --> 01:01:22,599
He wrote a satire. That poem is a satire on

1139
01:01:22,679 --> 01:01:27,400
the occult teaching of animal signs. So what he does

1140
01:01:27,480 --> 01:01:29,920
is he created an animal sign that comes in and

1141
01:01:29,960 --> 01:01:32,840
tries to convince him against the reality of life after

1142
01:01:32,920 --> 01:01:35,920
death as a as a parody of what he'd just

1143
01:01:36,000 --> 01:01:36,519
been reading.

1144
01:01:38,800 --> 01:01:41,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I mean, I thought that the raven

1145
01:01:41,840 --> 01:01:46,119
was just kind of like speaking cryptically or just the.

1146
01:01:47,119 --> 01:01:52,039
Speaker 4: Never you'll never there skepticism.

1147
01:01:54,519 --> 01:01:58,119
Speaker 3: So what's your plans now, Stephen, for your future in

1148
01:01:58,440 --> 01:02:01,199
the research airs, reincarnation and everything.

1149
01:02:01,840 --> 01:02:05,159
Speaker 4: Well, I'm laying low because of the situation, the political

1150
01:02:05,199 --> 01:02:09,559
situation in the United States. I don't want to get identified.

1151
01:02:10,199 --> 01:02:15,119
I don't want my Social Security polled, and I'm really

1152
01:02:15,159 --> 01:02:17,440
not doing much of anything right now. People are reading

1153
01:02:17,480 --> 01:02:19,559
my papers. I have like a little bit over fifty

1154
01:02:19,599 --> 01:02:23,760
papers posted on academia Edu under my name Stepen cycle areas,

1155
01:02:24,280 --> 01:02:27,159
and people are reading those. And what Abby told me

1156
01:02:27,320 --> 01:02:29,960
is you lay low, let the papers do the work.

1157
01:02:30,239 --> 01:02:32,440
That's what I feel like she's instructed me to do.

1158
01:02:33,039 --> 01:02:35,880
So I'm just hiding out for the time being, and

1159
01:02:35,960 --> 01:02:38,920
I do occasionally write to professors or authors you know,

1160
01:02:39,039 --> 01:02:43,559
or writers directly, and I almost never hear back. It's amazing.

1161
01:02:43,599 --> 01:02:47,480
I've written to hundreds and hundreds of people, including scholars,

1162
01:02:47,480 --> 01:02:51,119
but thats also reporters and writers. They don't write back.

1163
01:02:52,800 --> 01:02:55,000
They pretend that, they pretend that if they ignore me,

1164
01:02:55,039 --> 01:02:57,719
I'll go away, you know, But they all know that.

1165
01:02:57,840 --> 01:02:59,599
The irony of the thing is they all know because

1166
01:02:59,599 --> 01:03:01,360
I've written to each one of them, so every single

1167
01:03:01,360 --> 01:03:02,960
one of them knows, but not a single one of

1168
01:03:02,960 --> 01:03:05,400
them will write to me. So the papers are hopefully

1169
01:03:05,400 --> 01:03:07,480
doing the work because I can see on my stats

1170
01:03:07,519 --> 01:03:11,000
on academi Edu, like one paper I've got that doesn't

1171
01:03:11,000 --> 01:03:14,480
talk about one of these famous cases, it's got eleven thousand,

1172
01:03:14,760 --> 01:03:17,280
six hundred eleven people have seen it papers so far,

1173
01:03:17,639 --> 01:03:20,079
and nobody writes, you know. But the one about a

1174
01:03:20,159 --> 01:03:22,639
Christmas Carol is over I think it's over two three

1175
01:03:22,679 --> 01:03:26,440
thousand now, right, must six, So.

1176
01:03:26,320 --> 01:03:28,320
Speaker 3: That that helps people read those papers.

1177
01:03:28,400 --> 01:03:29,840
Speaker 2: If they're interested to look.

1178
01:03:29,639 --> 01:03:32,559
Speaker 4: Into this, well, they can get to my website which

1179
01:03:32,800 --> 01:03:39,119
is www dot i A L dot goldthread dot com

1180
01:03:39,679 --> 01:03:42,280
and the information is there as to how to see

1181
01:03:42,320 --> 01:03:46,079
the papers, or they can go to academi Edu, which

1182
01:03:46,119 --> 01:03:51,079
is just www dot academia dot edu and put in

1183
01:03:51,159 --> 01:03:53,280
my name. They may have to join. It won't cost

1184
01:03:53,320 --> 01:03:55,360
them anything, but they may have to do a membership.

1185
01:03:55,440 --> 01:03:56,760
I'm not sure I.

1186
01:03:56,800 --> 01:03:59,480
Speaker 2: Have all my free Yeah, I've read a few papers

1187
01:03:59,519 --> 01:03:59,760
on then.

1188
01:04:00,719 --> 01:04:03,599
Speaker 4: Yeah, so you put my name in there and you'll

1189
01:04:03,639 --> 01:04:05,400
get all that stuff. Cool.

1190
01:04:06,079 --> 01:04:08,480
Speaker 2: I know we're sort of finishing it, but can you

1191
01:04:08,559 --> 01:04:11,480
said something that is concerning. Do you believe there is

1192
01:04:11,960 --> 01:04:16,480
essentially political oppression now in the United States against what

1193
01:04:16,519 --> 01:04:19,360
you're saying because you have to lie low and things

1194
01:04:19,400 --> 01:04:19,639
like that.

1195
01:04:20,639 --> 01:04:24,639
Speaker 4: Well, I'm talking about Charles Dickens as a sociopath and

1196
01:04:24,760 --> 01:04:29,320
he had the same personality disorder as the current head

1197
01:04:29,320 --> 01:04:34,559
of our country. So you know, so when I talk

1198
01:04:34,639 --> 01:04:37,840
about what, you know, why do I think Charles Dickens

1199
01:04:37,880 --> 01:04:40,440
was a sociopath? Sociopath? And I lay it out, it

1200
01:04:40,480 --> 01:04:43,159
could be dangerous, you know, if there's any crossover. So

1201
01:04:43,360 --> 01:04:45,239
you know, it's like asking you know, it's like trying

1202
01:04:45,280 --> 01:04:47,639
to do an interview with somebody in Russia and they say, well,

1203
01:04:48,440 --> 01:04:51,079
you know, uh, you know, it's it's like that here,

1204
01:04:51,159 --> 01:04:53,960
it's getting it's getting dangerous. So I don't know. But

1205
01:04:54,199 --> 01:04:56,960
I'm on Social Security and I have some savings, but

1206
01:04:57,039 --> 01:04:59,119
I'm on Social Security and I really don't want my

1207
01:04:59,159 --> 01:05:03,880
monthly income pulled, so and Abby has told me to

1208
01:05:03,960 --> 01:05:06,440
lay low for a while. What she told me this

1209
01:05:06,480 --> 01:05:08,400
is interesting. She tells me a little bit about the

1210
01:05:08,440 --> 01:05:11,400
future sometimes, and I'm I think it's okay with her

1211
01:05:11,440 --> 01:05:13,920
because I'm in tune with her now. But what she

1212
01:05:14,000 --> 01:05:17,280
told me before the election, the recent election, she said,

1213
01:05:17,280 --> 01:05:19,679
it's going to get very bad, but it'll be over

1214
01:05:19,800 --> 01:05:20,559
fairly quickly.

1215
01:05:22,880 --> 01:05:23,679
Speaker 2: That's what is that, don't know.

1216
01:05:23,800 --> 01:05:24,880
Speaker 4: They don't argue with a wife.

1217
01:05:25,039 --> 01:05:26,679
Speaker 2: Never argue with a wife, well.

1218
01:05:26,920 --> 01:05:34,320
Speaker 3: Wherever they are, Ye, yes, dear, Yeah, get very bad

1219
01:05:34,360 --> 01:05:34,880
in the sense.

1220
01:05:34,920 --> 01:05:39,760
Speaker 4: But ill she didn't clarify, clarify, and she deliberately didn't clarify,

1221
01:05:39,840 --> 01:05:42,079
said she. But I didn't know what it meant because

1222
01:05:42,119 --> 01:05:44,239
nothing had happened yet. So she said, it's going to

1223
01:05:44,280 --> 01:05:47,400
get very bad, but then it'll be over fairly quickly.

1224
01:05:48,000 --> 01:05:50,639
That's all. I know. What you just told me.

1225
01:05:50,840 --> 01:05:53,960
Speaker 3: That reminds me of a story that we had from

1226
01:05:54,199 --> 01:05:58,360
someone who came on the Paranormal Peep Show a couple

1227
01:05:58,400 --> 01:06:00,840
of years ago, and he he told us about his

1228
01:06:00,920 --> 01:06:03,559
friend called Dave, who is a bus driver here in

1229
01:06:03,559 --> 01:06:06,119
the UK. I think he's probably retired by now, but

1230
01:06:06,239 --> 01:06:11,119
this guy, Dave, was very, very psychic, and apparently this

1231
01:06:11,159 --> 01:06:13,960
guy would kind of sea spirits and all sorts of things.

1232
01:06:14,519 --> 01:06:17,760
And there was one particular time that this guy had

1233
01:06:17,760 --> 01:06:19,920
gone to bed and he was trying to get to sleep,

1234
01:06:19,960 --> 01:06:22,159
but he kept getting a lunching voice saying, go downstairs,

1235
01:06:22,239 --> 01:06:24,440
go downstairs, and he said, oh, please let me sleep.

1236
01:06:24,760 --> 01:06:27,360
They said, no, please go downstairs. So this guy would

1237
01:06:27,400 --> 01:06:30,199
kind of like cajole into going downstairs into his living room,

1238
01:06:30,239 --> 01:06:32,679
and he could see that the door was a jar

1239
01:06:33,159 --> 01:06:35,920
and a blue light was coming from it. So he thought, oh,

1240
01:06:35,920 --> 01:06:37,719
there must be a street lamp or something like that

1241
01:06:37,719 --> 01:06:41,440
coming through the curtains. So he went in there and allegedly,

1242
01:06:41,480 --> 01:06:43,519
I'm not saying this is the absolute truth, that this

1243
01:06:43,599 --> 01:06:45,760
is the way it was told to me. Allegedly he

1244
01:06:45,840 --> 01:06:49,679
went in there and there was three tall beings in

1245
01:06:49,719 --> 01:06:53,559
his living room. One was standing up and he probably

1246
01:06:53,599 --> 01:06:55,519
reached the celia, and the other two were sitting down.

1247
01:06:55,920 --> 01:06:58,440
But they almost looked like almost like like wizards in

1248
01:06:58,599 --> 01:07:01,840
robes or something that that was a description, and they

1249
01:07:01,880 --> 01:07:04,440
said thank you for coming here. That the spokesman was

1250
01:07:04,480 --> 01:07:06,400
standing up and I forget what his name was, now,

1251
01:07:07,159 --> 01:07:09,880
thank you for coming here. But we've got so very

1252
01:07:09,880 --> 01:07:12,639
important to tell you. They said, things are going to

1253
01:07:12,679 --> 01:07:16,639
get very very bad, but you're not to get too

1254
01:07:16,679 --> 01:07:19,840
involved with people. Don't worry about people. We know you

1255
01:07:19,960 --> 01:07:23,440
care for people, but please don't get too involved. And

1256
01:07:23,480 --> 01:07:26,320
they said, things are going to get very very bad

1257
01:07:26,360 --> 01:07:31,599
in America. They said, and whatever happens there will reflect

1258
01:07:31,679 --> 01:07:33,679
over here kind of thing, you know, the same kind

1259
01:07:33,679 --> 01:07:37,519
of problems that happened here. Now, they said, please don't

1260
01:07:37,519 --> 01:07:40,079
worry too much about people. So at the time, that

1261
01:07:40,239 --> 01:07:43,840
was just before the COVID pandemic, and I kind of thought, well,

1262
01:07:43,880 --> 01:07:46,519
maybe it's something to do with that, although it didn't

1263
01:07:46,679 --> 01:07:50,079
really resonate really strongly. But now I'm wondering all this

1264
01:07:50,239 --> 01:07:54,880
kind of Ukraine thing and all the elections. Maybe the

1265
01:07:54,960 --> 01:07:57,760
way it's going now, literally it might actually what you're

1266
01:07:57,800 --> 01:08:01,360
saying with Abby's what she's told you reflects what this

1267
01:08:01,400 --> 01:08:02,360
guy who was told.

1268
01:08:02,280 --> 01:08:04,760
Speaker 4: You is exactly the same thing. To get I have

1269
01:08:04,800 --> 01:08:05,800
to get involved the state.

1270
01:08:06,960 --> 01:08:09,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, interesting.

1271
01:08:11,320 --> 01:08:15,039
Speaker 4: And yeah, yeah, very interesting. Time will and.

1272
01:08:14,960 --> 01:08:18,119
Speaker 2: Time will tell I mean the future is he's never certain.

1273
01:08:18,199 --> 01:08:23,640
We can always change, but time will tell you. I

1274
01:08:23,680 --> 01:08:26,199
think we're better call it a quiz now. But it's

1275
01:08:26,239 --> 01:08:30,640
been interesting, Stephen, Thanks very much. It's been interesting hearing

1276
01:08:30,680 --> 01:08:33,560
your story. Yeah, that's a pretty unique story, one I've

1277
01:08:33,560 --> 01:08:38,119
never heard before. That's and Neil, thank you very much

1278
01:08:38,119 --> 01:08:40,239
as well for for co hosting, which a pleasure you.

1279
01:08:40,279 --> 01:08:43,039
Speaker 3: Thanks for inviting me, and thank you Stephen for taking

1280
01:08:43,119 --> 01:08:46,079
part in this dual program experience. So it's been on

1281
01:08:46,119 --> 01:08:48,720
two shows at once, so you certainly laying low.

1282
01:08:52,399 --> 01:08:54,000
Speaker 2: I'll tell my listeners not to tell anyone.

1283
01:08:54,000 --> 01:08:54,600
Speaker 4: All right, we.

1284
01:08:57,279 --> 01:08:59,520
Speaker 3: Can bank out your face and within this spow your name.

1285
01:08:59,560 --> 01:09:03,520
Speaker 4: How about that? Well good, you know what, people just

1286
01:09:03,520 --> 01:09:06,159
think I'm a fool, and that is the best protection

1287
01:09:06,439 --> 01:09:08,000
ric it.

1288
01:09:08,079 --> 01:09:10,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, go with a jester identity. I think that's probably

1289
01:09:10,880 --> 01:09:13,439
the way to do it. Yeah, you'll be saying all right,

1290
01:09:13,439 --> 01:09:15,760
but thank you very much once again, Thank you Ben.

1291
01:09:15,960 --> 01:10:03,159
Speaker 5: And that's saying good bye bye. It's mass Ma