Speaker 1: What is going on at Skinwalker Ranch.
Speaker 2: As soon as you pass the gates, you get this
feeling that they're like, there's something there, there's something not normal.
You're entering a place that has this entity there.
Speaker 3: Something is there, batteries draining, drones dropping, equipment going dead.
Speaker 1: But when everybody leaves, nothing happens.
Speaker 2: It's when you introduce people into the property. It's when
you start seeing all the crazy things going on.
Speaker 1: Some say it goes further than that.
Speaker 2: The people that feel that have been you know, basically
their consciencens abducted have much more profound experiences than people
that say that they were physically abducted.
Speaker 3: So he built a sensor network, put it in people's homes,
and what came back changed everything.
Speaker 2: These people claim to have experiences during those periods of
anomalist signal, upload pictures of you know, their anatomy that
has like rashes and lesions and bloody noses and all
sorts of things that happen to them.
Speaker 3: Tonight, the physicists who study we need Skinwalker Ranch and
the science behind what's really going on. Let's find out. Hey, everybody,
welcome to the Good Trouble Show. I'm Matt Ford, So
tonight we're going somewhere most shows won't go. And on
our show here we've talked a lot about UAP, about
disclosure and what the government knows and isn't telling us,
plus all the stuff going on with UAP and Congress.
But what about the people who are actually experiencing this stuff,
the ones who see something, feel something, and then wake
up with injuries they can't explain.
Speaker 1: Our guest is a physicist.
Speaker 3: And mechanical engineer who studied under doctor how put Off
and was assigned to Skinwalker Ranch to investigate medical injuries
linked to anomalist phenomena on the property. Since then, he's
built a first of its kind global sensor network that
is measuring what actually happens to people and their environment
during these crazy anomalous experiences, all in real time, all
from inside their homes. Please welcome to the show, doctor
Jim Sigala. Doctor Sagala, how are you, sir?
Speaker 2: I'm very good and I'm glad to be here on
your show to talk to your audience.
Speaker 1: I am so excited to have you here.
Speaker 3: Do you prefer doctor Sagala or Jim or or what
should I call you?
Speaker 2: I prefer Jim just keep casual.
Speaker 3: Okay, cool, awesome, very good. Well, super super happy to
meet you. So glad you're here. So you were a
mechanical engineer. You had a really great career. What made
you tell your wife, you know what, I'm going to
go back to school and become a physicist.
Speaker 2: Well, when I first went to graduate school, you know,
I got a master's in mechanical engineering. I always looked
at those guys that were like getting their pH ds
as Wow, that's and being scientists. I said, I was
really jealous. But then you know, life gets in the way.
You have kids and you have to, you know, get
a real job. You can't do all the fun things.
So but I always said I was going to go back.
And when my kids graduated high school, or the day
they graduated high school, I made the announcement on going
back to school to get a PhD. And at that
point I said I was going to go get a
PhD or in engineering. But as I took courses and
I was taking taking electors and physics and things like that,
I just fell in love with it and just started
I said I'm switching over. So I switched over to physics.
Speaker 1: Wow, So was it everything you kind of expected it
to be. Was it?
Speaker 3: You know when you when you went into it, did
you immediately know that's where your focus would be?
Speaker 2: Yes? And no. I mean as an engineer, my whole
family was built of all engineers. I mean so and
engineers are very pragmatic, they're very practical. Everything's a bolt
and nut. Physicists are very They think in a whole
different way. It's like it esoteric and it's like, oh,
we're going to imagine some forces and we're going to
imagine this. So thinking as an engineer and then tran
for into thinking like a physicist was a big stretch
for me, and it took a little while. I mean
when I was with students that were pure physicists, you know,
right from the beginning you can tell that they had
a better grasp of the esoteric type of things that
you learned in like quantum mechanics and things like that.
But I eventually got got the hang of it.
Speaker 1: And what kind of engineer are you?
Speaker 2: Mechanical so it's all like machinery and you know, stress
and all that kind of you know, building things.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I was actually a doubt electrical engineering technology major.
Speaker 1: Nice I found that uh.
Speaker 3: Being an engineer requires you to actually understand and be
you know, pretty pretty good at math, and which is
not me. So I, uh, yeah, I ended up dropping
out of that. But but I do have a love
for engineering and and like I love machining. I've got
a cee and see in my garage, and you know,
I love all love all things nice mechanical. I'm a
total geek when it comes to that sort of sort
of stuff. Now I understand, I understand you ended up
studying with doctor Howe put Off, and this is the
guy who you have studied remote viewing and advised bigelow
on kind of the weird stuff going on there.
Speaker 1: And we'll talk about that here in a bit.
Speaker 3: What what did he teach you in terms of studying
what in many ways is the unstudiable as far as
I know, but maybe maybe it'll surprise me later with
this move past thing.
Speaker 2: So when you work with somebody like how you So
when you go to school, you learn how to do physics,
you learn how to do science, but you don't know
how to really form scientific things. How teaches you that.
I mean you go out in the field and it's
more of like a like an internship. Then that's what
I got originally. And you work with him and you
find out the wrong way to do things and you
find the right way to do things, and he's a
coach that helps you to understand how things are going.
You know how to take data, how to take statistics,
how to get it right, and how to publish, and
how to how to make it so that the community,
the scientific community will accept what you're doing. And that's
so so important. A lot of people come out of
school and they go right into it and find out
that they're you know, they're just not very good grounded
scientists because they really don't know how to make that
discovery and make it believable by the whole community.
Speaker 3: And were you sort of surprised, like how much of
a change was it for you before you really started
interfacing with doctor Putoff versus after was it? Did he like,
you know, completely open a new world or had you
experienced anything anomalous beforehand before Skinwalker Ranch?
Speaker 2: So for that type, So when I first started there,
this was back in twenty ten ish, I was working
on quantum mechanical experiments and doing things like that, so
you know, I was it was being involved in some
of the you know, you know, fringy type of things,
but not not the WU type of things. But then
Bigelow brought back all this data from Skinwalker that was
in the era when Bigelow was and how Putov was
his science advisor, so a lot of the data came
back to his organization in Texas. And I started looking
at that and started thinking, like somebody investigating a phenomena
that you can't you know, measure and feel and see.
It's some unknown phenomena that I started investigating. And that's
when I started to realize that this stuff is is there,
It's true, it's making it's making differences in people's life,
it's making different differences in the in the environment. And
that's when I started to basically fell in love with
that subject.
Speaker 3: And let's let's talk about Skinwalker Ranch. I'm actually a huge, huge,
huge fan of the show. How did you become involved
in that?
Speaker 2: So when Bigelow sold the property, he you know, talked
to How and How was very supportive and he was
looking for somebody to actually get it, and he How
knew Brandon Pugel. He also knew him from some other
things that they had done, you know, called a brand
and say, you know, would you like to buy this
piece of property? And they, you know, they they got
together and they bought the property. And then Hal stayed
on as science advisor to Brandon for you know, the
first incarnation of his ownership. And then when Brandon said, look,
you know, I don't have anybody to do science, to
do investigations, he said, well, you know, we've got We've
got a guy here that you know, has all this ability,
has done a lot of things. They were they were
at that time looking at so what I worked with
how on Skinwalker Ranch stuff? Who was always on medical events,
medical events that happened where people got significantly hurt. And
when Brandon took over with the property, he was starting
to see people getting hurt. So he went to Hell
and said, you know, what do you what do you got?
You know, can you give me a scientist that I
could work with that will help me understand what the
heck's going on my property? And I in myself and
another scientist was basically assigned to Skinwalker Ranch to help
them figure things out, you know, on an ongoing basis.
Speaker 3: When you were first assigned to this, were you kind
of skeptical of what was going on in terms of
the physical injuries. You know, what did you sort of
think that you were walking into before he actually showed
up on showed up on the ranch.
Speaker 2: So I never physically went there while I was looking
at the data from Bigelow. But from Bigelow's data, it
was apparent there was something going on because he had,
you know, he was very stringent with his scientific investigation.
He had people walking the property every day and taking
seismographic and taking much a magnetic spectrum all over the property.
So I was seeing anomalies happening well before I even
got to the ranch. But when I got to the ranch,
I was allowed to do instrumentation and you know, interview
people that I were having medical events, and you just
like a lot of things started to click and make
a lot of sense to say, well, you know, phenomena
that happens over here, you know it could be caused
by something that's happening over here. So you start piecing
it together in your mind.
Speaker 3: Okay, so let's let's go to the first day that
you walk on to Skinwalker Ranch.
Speaker 1: Walk me through that.
Speaker 3: What did you feel, what did you measure, and what
was the first sort of anomaloust thing you experienced there.
Speaker 2: So there was a point of time when, you know,
we did go and investigate. There was an injury that
occurred on the ranch that myself in a medical doctor,
went to investigate. You know, we actually went to the hospital,
looked at their medical records, did all that kind of stuff.
But when you get to the property, as soon as
you pass the gates, you get this feeling that they're like,
there's something there. There's something not normal. You know, I
wouldn't say normal, there's something that you're passing out. You're
going over a threshold where you know, you're basically entering
a place that has this entity there. Something is there
and you could feel it and sense it. So as
soon as you cross the gate, that's that's the first
thing you feel. And as you get more and more
in there and you start walking around and looking at
the places and being shown different areas, you start seeing this.
You know, there is something very strange. And I was
looking over your shoulder, like, what the heck's going on
over there?
Speaker 3: Yeah, I actually I don't know. If I don't know,
we we'll see. But if Brandon ever invites me there,
I would really have to kind of, you know, really
kind of think about whether that's I would feel safe
going there. But this twenty seventeen injury that kind of
started all of this without like breaking confidentiality, of course,
sure what exactly was this injury?
Speaker 2: So it was reported back to the medical doctor that
this person suffered some type of lesion in the back
of the head, some injury that they felt that was
not caused by some natural thing like there was no
trauma involved or anything like that. And the medical doctor
actually came to the conclusion that whatever it was was happening,
something had entered his body to do this, to make
this injury happen. So we went there and we looked
around with for possibilities, wrote a report. This is all
funded by a Halputos pod, So this has nothing to
do with Brandon. This is all to do with how
Putov funded the whole investigation. Wrote the report for our
the sponsor, and you know, the conclusion was that there
was some type of locromagnetic energy that was present on
the property during the time that the person might have
been there, But later found out that the person was
actually not on the property when that when he had
gotten hurt, he was, you know, off traveling someplace el
So you know, that was the kind of a not
so much so letdown, but it was more of a okay,
that's a data point, you know, that's that's interesting. But
that was the impetus to say, okay, well this is
a neat little area. You know, Skinwalker is a great
great I used to call it, you know, one of
the one of the best scientific laboratories because it's very
contained and a lot of things happened. But come to
find out that the entire YU went to base and
it is just chocked full of the exact same type
of things. So even though it doesn't really happen too
often on Skinwalker, it happens a lot out in the
You went to basins, So that's when I kind of
turned out and said, look, you know, let's look around
and see what else is going on here.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it certainly seems that that the whatever's happening there
is quite quite extensive off the ranch with the people
that I've spoken with as well. So did you actually
ever like stay on the ranch, did you sleep there
or were you stay at the hotel not hanging out?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I was, Yeah, we were Invernal, which is probably
twenty thirty miles away. You know, I knew people that
slept there, and you know, they always reported some weird
things going on, and there was some instrumentation that was
placed there that actually showed that there was some weird
things happening during the evening when they say things were happening.
So you know, it was very apparent that there was
some phenomena on the property that was causing people to
have these very profound experiences.
Speaker 3: Now on the TV show, which again I freaking it's
the only reality show.
Speaker 1: That I watch.
Speaker 2: Actually I was only on first season, so.
Speaker 1: Right, right, So.
Speaker 3: They talk about this or doctor Travis Taylor talks about
this one point six gigahertz signal being detected repeatedly.
Speaker 1: Did you observe that signal.
Speaker 3: During your time and can you explain, you know, or
have any hypotheses as far as what this one point
six gigahertz energy seems to be.
Speaker 2: So I did not there in that time. It was
really discovered I think, well like a couple of years
later and on that property. So but we I did
sense that type of frequency in other areas of EU
at debase, and so it's it is it is in
the way. So you have to realize that underneath that
whole area, it's just full of caverns and electromagnetic energy. Yeah,
electromagnetic energy low. Some might some are filled with water,
some are empty, But there's a lot of caverns under
the whole thing. So even though it's like all this
desert and mountainous area underneath is like this, This whole
ecosystem has got like tons of things under there, and
electromagnetic energy, no matter where it emanates from, will travel
down there, down those caverns and end up places that
you would never think of. So it's probably what my
speculator is. And we found this, you know, when I
was on Black Bog Ranch. In fact, I spend a
lot of time on blink Frog Ranch. We measured that
particular frequency, not so much in that band, but we
measured things close to that band, And I just speculate
that there's a lot of oil drilling going on and
they communicate in that frequency range, and there's a lot
of other things going on, you know, in that area
that might just attribute to that frequency and it travels long,
long distances, and.
Speaker 1: You're saying that frequency is used in oil drilling.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so they communicate with the heads and you know,
you know, they put these these drill heads out and
they go cruising through the surface and they're go horizontal
and they're communicating with it. So those communications are you know,
high energy microwaves that are you know, try through the earth.
And one thing that people don't realize that when you
take a lectromagnetic beam and you send it through the Earth,
it will actually change frequency as it goes through different materials.
So what started off is maybe two two gigahertz might
after it went through some material end up to be
one point six. So it fools you sometimes because what
they call they call these things wave guides, and wave
guides are something that people use all the time. And
then but you can do frequency changes. You can see
that these harmonics, like I'm sure you've seen. It's like
when when somebody strums like a guitar, you hear you
don't hear a perfect signal. You hear a signal plus
a little bit of side band, so it sounds kind
of fuzzy. And those are those are harmonics. And then
so when you get these oil drills that are that
are paying and they're doing all sorts of stuff, we
might be hearing harmonics that are not the true signal,
but something that's related to that signal. So I'm not
saying that it's not Yeah, it's very possible that it's
some other thing, but when they get consistent and they
repeatable things, then you have to question whether or not
this is something that may not be natural, but it's
something that might be human generated.
Speaker 3: Now on the in the book skin Walker's at the Pentagon,
the os App report documented things like a camera is
having their wires physically ripped out. As I understand it,
like other cameras that were maybe aimed at the camera
that had it so wires ripped out, didn't record anything.
Did you experience any kind of equipment sabotage you can't
talk this morning sabotage or anything that just completely was bizarre.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, absolutely So. It was like actually during the
filming because I was you know, during the first season,
they had a lot of cameras, there, a lot of electronics,
and constantly batteries were being drained and this wone work.
Drones won't fly, and it's like it's kind of funny
because you're out in the middle of nowhere, literally in
the middle of nowhere, so there's no big industrial thing.
It's you know, basically you can see oil wells, you know,
being all over you know, and on the horizon, but
right there there's nothing said what the heck is causing
all this crazy things to happen. So when you know,
people say, is there's some strange phenomena there that I
don't know, it's it's basically, it's it's interfacing with the
equipment and making the equipment not functional.
Speaker 3: And what's crazy too, is like I think it's like
one thing if there's some kind of electronic jamming, but
for like things to be physically disconnected, I mean.
Speaker 2: That's that's strange. Yeah, I've never seen I haven't seen
things like that, but I've seen electronic which heavily relies
on lecromagnetic and and a lot of gamma particles. So
you get when when things are going on and you
get a lot of high energy things in the environment,
you get a lot of gamma ray showers, you know,
doing things just decaying, and you get these crazy particles
that come out, and then that gets into the electronics,
and electronics of course it's gonna you know, they're gonna reset,
they're gonna batteries are going to drain, they're going to
do all sorts of crazy things. So we measured quite
a bit of a gamma rate in our high energy particles,
well above the microwave range out in that area and
all over the all over the basin.
Speaker 3: One of the things that I've noticed on the show,
at least as far as how they tell the story,
is like right before, right when the test is to begin,
like they set all the equipment up.
Speaker 1: I'm sure they test and whatnot.
Speaker 3: Then when they go to actually run the test, it's
as if the phenomenon knows and it actively starts interfering
with the equipment at that moment in time. Did you
see any kind of correlation with that, like like you
almost felt like the phenomenon was you know.
Speaker 1: Like you guys were actively being watched.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so you get that, like I said, you get
that feeling that you're when you're in that in that environment,
that there is something on the outside that's intervening into
what you're doing. And you know so, and Bigelow was so.
And that's one of the reasons Bige sold his properties
because he just got so frustrated with it that he
would set up an experiment, spend you know, lots of
time and personnel and getting things set up, and then
when he would run the experiment, nothing would happen there.
But you know, one hundred yards over here where nobody's looking,
some crazy thing would happen. You know, one of the
pieces of equipment would break down or or you know,
one of his big caterpillars would would stop working or
something like that. So and that's fairly typical, and that
happens a lot. I mean, so a lot of equipment happened,
a lot of equipment problems. So we have people in
our in our study throughout the unit to base and
that constantly complained that they're always changing the every you know,
every year they have to change their TV out, every year,
they have to get a new washer dryer. So it's like,
for some reason, whatever is going on here, and we're
you know, we're hoping to measure a lot of these
things that we have measured it that we can get
to the bottom of what is causing these these things
that affect people, and it affects physically equipment and dogs
go barking and and things. You know, things are physically
changing in your tests.
Speaker 3: When when you were there, did like what what kind
of sort of anomalies would you see in terms of
and again I'm not like a scientist, I you know,
barely barely.
Speaker 1: Barely graduated college.
Speaker 3: Uh, but in terms of like data points that would
be completely off the sort of baseline. Would you see
things like r F energy spike or whatnot during these
experience experiments? Or what were the sort of things signal
wise that you would record that seemed to indicate that
there was some kind of sort of active interference going on.
Speaker 2: So one of the interesting things that happens in that area,
especially you know in the higher arnument to base and
up and more towards the canyon, we were experiencing a
lot of gyroscopic So if you look at the actual
you know what we what we live in, our our
you know space time. You know, there's a lot of
energy that's holding us together. But it when you have
something high energy that enters it, it has a tendency
to shake a little bit and wiggle and turn a
little bit. So there's a sensor called a gyroscope. A gyroscope,
you know, a gyroscope that basically measures how much this
metric is twisting that seems to be the one that
gets pinned a lot and it creates an anomaly, and
it's also one of the things that you can't fake.
There's no way on earth that you're going to change
You're going to go and wiggle this thing without changing
anything else. So that was one of the indications that
we started to see a lot of gyroscopic motion, meaning
that something entered the atmosphere or something entered the environment
that was very energetic and actually turned a little bit
and it's a very slight thing. It's like, you know,
microns of twisting that caused this sensor to have these
anomalous blips. And I can actually show you a few
of these that are pretty profound sometimes. But then you
know the typical gamma so you get these gamma ray
showers that come in unexplained and you basically we measure
those during times when people say that they've had some
very strange experience, like they would have this, you know,
the point where they kind of lose a little conscious
of they go, you know, slight catatonia just for a second,
and then when you look at the DATI, you say,
wait a minute, exactly when you told me that, you know,
I saw this big gamma ray spike, so that's probably
what your brain was doing, was trying to contend with
the energy coming in there.
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or super things. Means the world to us. So let's
get back to the interview with doctor Jim Sigala. So
what is your personal theory, Like, do you think that
there's something physical buried under Skinwalker Ranch, Like based on
maybe your sensor data or your your anything that you saw,
what is your personal opinion as far as what may
be going on there, Like, do you think there's a
craft buried under Skinwalker Ranch, under the mesa underground command
post that maybe has US personnel in it, any any
kind of theories.
Speaker 2: Well, the big theory that I've always established is that
there is an energy on the property and you know,
again all over the place, and it interacts with not
the property, interacts with the people on the property. So
you can leave that that and it's happened, and you know,
basically that property gets left for eleven months and then
you know, everybody descends on it to make a show
for one month or two months oft of the year.
During the off time, very little happens. There's nothing that's
going on. It's when you introduce people into the property.
It's when you start seeing all the crazy things going
on in there, and the scientifically relevant type of phenomena
that you can actually draw conclusions off of happen when
there's somebody on the property, and the better the person
is at actually experiencing these things and they're attuned to it,
and it's, you know, something Gary Nolan has worked a
lot on the bigger the anomalies are, or they're more
profound the anomalies are. So one of the conclusions, it's
not a concludion you can ever really conclude anything, is
that you have to intermix the people into it. And
I think that's what this phenomenon is, interacting with the people.
The property is a conduit or a place that has
a higher energy value or a lower energy value, depending on,
you know what, the type of energy you're looking at.
But for the most part, when you introduce people, that's
when the stuff happened.
Speaker 3: So in a way, it's like the people kind of
act really sort of as antennas, and certain people, certain
people's antennas, seem to be more attuned to picking up
whatever this stuff is.
Speaker 2: Yeah, if you think about it, this phenomena, why would
the phenomena want to go to a place where there's nothing,
you know, sentient objects are I think one of the
more interesting things to investigate. If they were interacting with
something and there's nothing on the property, that kind of
sounds a little boring to you know, to do. We
wouldn't do that we wouldn't go in the middle of
desert and set up to look at a barren place.
You would wait to have some trees or whatever. So
youet to think that they are basically interacting with us,
and that we are the ones that are actually the
reason that this phenomenon has gained some insight into what
we're doing and what's going on the property.
Speaker 3: Speaking as someone that's worked on reality TV, I'm again
not a big fan of it, but I know in
some of the reality shows that I've worked on in
my professional career in television, a lot of what you
end up seeing in the end, as far as what
the audience sees, is really kind of pretty heavily produced.
Did any of that sort of thing happen on that
particular show or what you saw on camera was pretty
much what you would regularly what you would see if
you weren't on camera.
Speaker 2: Well, that's a really good question, and I don't want
to step on their toes or you know anyway, But
one of the reasons that I left was because it
was a lot of drama. It was a lot of sure,
you know, you know, that's what if you think it
is a reality show, and that's what they want, So
it was it was very difficult to do the science
stuff there. That we would do an experiment and then
that was it. You know, they would just basically say, well,
we just wanted to film the experiment and then we
don't really want to do anything with it. So it
kind of got a little disheartening. That's why I said,
you know, that's not a really cool place to do it.
And that's why I said, I want to go look
to other places. So you know, TV's TV, Yeah, Hollywood, Hollywood,
So they're gonna they're gonna make it entertainable for that thing.
One of the things I don't you know, I don't know.
If I was on a show Blink Frog Ranch, that's
a different that's a different venue. That is more of
a discovery show where they're actually looking for something and
it's more scientific, and they don't do those kind of things.
They don't care about drama. They really care about discovery
and they care about things like that. So that's a
little different.
Speaker 1: Gotcha.
Speaker 3: Okay, So so you leave after season one, what happens
after that?
Speaker 1: What's what's the sort of next thing you move on to.
Speaker 2: Well, so that was interesting. So when I did leave
all the people that I interfaced with in you at
the base and contacted me. It said, you know, we
need your expertise to help us, because they were actually
involved in some of the work that I was doing
during that time. You know, we were interfacing with these
people talking to them, and I got reached out by literally,
you know, like fifty people and said, you know, where
the held you go, you have to help us. We
started to feel a little better about all the crazy
things happening in our life since you were there helping
us trying to understand it. So that's when I kicked
off the first study through you know, funding from how
where we said, okay, you're going to you're going to
you know, log all these things. You're going to have
an instrument that that kind of looks at your environment
and records, and we're going to try to understand what's
going on when it goes on, what you're feeling, how
does it go away, how does it come in. So
that was the first study that we kicked off back
you know, back in twenty nineteen.
Speaker 1: And this is the moopas system.
Speaker 2: Correct, this was the first incarnation. It wasn't called that
at that time, but this is the first incarnation of
that whole study funded by how and basically the idea
is to understand what the what are these people experiencing
and why are they having these profound experiences. Most of
the people that were contacted, that contacted us had medical
evidence that something happened to them. You know, they would
have some lesions, they would have, you know, something some
subcutaneous objects in their in their bodies that they had
medical reports that showed it. Or they would have things
that were very strange in their brain, you know, some
traumatic brain brain injury that they couldn't explain. It wasn't
trauma based, but it was sure enough. There. We're going
to talk about some other stuff, like the Havana syndrome,
stuff that is very very similar to the things that
were going on in the Basin at that time, which
was a you know, a big question markets and what
the heck's going on here if people in Havana are
having similar things going on.
Speaker 3: So, and before we kind of dig into some of
your presentations, which you have some amazing stuff there, just
in kind of a general overall sense, what are these
detectors listening for recording? Is it radiation, magnetic fields, heat,
you know, what are what would be some of the
things that you would want to collect on.
Speaker 2: Well, there's two sides of that. One is we want
to know what are the things that are in the
environment that change when something energetic comes in and then
what are the thin Then second question and what are
the things in the environment. What are the values in
the environment that could affect our physiology and make us
have these profound experiences like go into a catatonic shock
or have an experience or see a craft or something
like that. So you get you know, the cast of
characters would then be, you know, gamma rayse looks a
magnetic energy, your im you your acceleration vech, your magnetic vector,
gravity vector, your gyroscoptic vector. In ProSound is a big
eie so when when big things come in your area,
you get these infra sounds that travel over the earth
of any kind of indicators like that. Initially we didn't
do any biometrics, but now we're getting into the biometrics
where we're actually looking at tremors and heart rate and
blood pressures and watching that spike while people are having
these experiences. But that's that's the first thing.
Speaker 1: Oh sorry, right, no, no, please don't catch off.
Speaker 2: Well, that was the first you know, the first thing
we did is that looked and we said, well, let's
let's figure out what we want to do. Put it
all in there, figure out which are very important ones.
So that's what we kind of did.
Speaker 3: And as I understand that during that first phase of
the study, participants didn't know what you were measuring, and
you didn't know what they experienced until you sort of
correlated the data later.
Speaker 1: Is that doing right?
Speaker 2: So they they never well, some of like one or
two of them did, but most of them. There was
thirty six participants that came in and out, and we
didn't really have thirty six. We had more than that,
but we like some of them weren't very good, and
then we swapped them out. We had maybe fifty. Anyway,
those people wouldn't really see their data. What they would
do is that every day they would go and they
would journal, they would put in their narratives like you
know today I had this at four o'clock. You know,
I felt like, you know, somebody was watching me, blah
blah blah. And then what we would do is then
take that data because we were getting all the data
real time and then we would store it up in
the cloud and then we would take their narratives and
then we would match it with what was ever going
on in their environment, so like if they had to
watch or something like that, or they had a device,
and then we would see correlations. And we had some
rules that that we didn't really have any good We
wouldn't accept a data point unlessen you know, fill into
some metric, and so we had some rules established on
what constitutes a really good data point. Then we would
then filter all the other ones out. And it turned
out that over the three years that we ran the
study with thirty six people, we only got out of
the thousands than thousands of possible points, we only kept
three hundred of them. Okay, so which is not a lot.
I mean, that's that's pretty small percentage. But those were
good points that we collected. So they wouldn't know that.
But we would then go back after the fact, like
maybe a few days later or some even a week later,
and we would tell them, during this time, you had
this experience and you had this so this is this
is a methodology. That's it's a reinforcement thing to keep
people interested in but not skew them. That important thing
was never to skew their data or put their personal
knowledge into the experiment, which would be you know, of
course you want to do double blogs and things like that.
Speaker 3: And was this device using kind of like commercial off
the shelf technology or or was it sort of purpose
built for these sort of observations.
Speaker 2: Well, it was just constructed of these little sensors that
you can buy. They call mems sensors. They're very very
tiny little sensors that basically are these micro micro mechanical devices.
Within these are integrated chips that you that are like
the gyroscopic and all those little sensors, their tiny little
little devices, and then we packaged all that into one
little thing that people could put on their on their
table or you know, even in the watch. And so
it was off the shelf, but we packaged it and
made it nice and clean for people to put in
their environment.
Speaker 3: At the end of the study, were you able to
correlate certain signals with a particular experience, Like if somebody
claimed they were abducted, that they would have a certain
set of signals that would be outliers, versus if they
somebody said they saw an orb Was there any sort
of pattern that you could sort of determine based on
what the person was experiencing.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so in fact, I could show you the actual
report if that keeps online, and I can show you
where it is. But we established that we were able
to We came to a statistical success of four point
five sigma, which means that if somebody else report, So
if somebody else did the experiment with completely different people
different they would come up within you zero point four
to five sigma of what we came up with. And
we were able to predict the remember the three hundred
that I talked about, those those data points, We were
able to predict those data points within some statistical accuracy.
And like I said, that was just a major accomplishment
to be able to get. Now, it's not great. Four
point five is not great. We were really wanted five.
Five is like the golden statistical mean, but we did.
We only had thirty six people. So now what we're
doing is we're increased that up to ten thousand people
and now we hope to push it well past the
five sigma. So five sigma is like the accepted scientific
standard that when you publish with a five sigma result,
you get passed through the review process.
Speaker 3: Now time of the study, which is currently what's going on.
How that came about? I think that story is pretty interesting.
Tell us about that.
Speaker 2: So it was, yeah, actually it was kind of interesting.
So I I after three years, I sent an email
to everybody and said, you know, guy, this is great.
I have all this information, I wrote my report everything,
you know, I got this result. Thank you so much.
And it went away. So and I said, you know,
you can keep the equipment, you can do whatever you want.
I don't, you know, never want it back. And then
I started getting phone calls from people. This is you
know this, this this stuff changed my life. I now
can deal with what's going on in my life because
I had this. I had this bility to give my
narratives and in journal and have this device and see
these things and know somebody was watching over me that
you know, crazy things weren't going to happen. So these
start people started to ask me, said what the hell
you're doing? You can't just stop. So after a while
and then there was a group of people in there,
a group of people that represented a bunch of experiencers
that contacted me and said, you know what can we
do to help you become a you know, to kick
off the next phase of your study. So you know,
I'm not going to say that I was brought into
this kicking and screaming, but I was like the I
thought we ended it. I thought he wrote a report,
and I submitted the report. But then you know, they said,
we want we want you to continue this thing. And
one of the people that were in the original study
came to me and said, look, if you do kick
off another study, we want to fund it. So they said,
we're going to pay for whatever devices that people would
need to join your study. So now the phase two,
I said, okay, So we kicked off phase two. We
redesigned everything to make it a little bit more easy
for people to use, and have made it much cheaper,
got somebody to fund it, to actually pay for the
devices when people want to, you know, take them. And
so now we've got the queer. I have to ask
my wife, who soon handled all that. I think we're approaching.
We're approaching the five hundred or the four hundred mark,
I think so, which is a lot more than thirty
and being they're all over the world, and that was
another issue that we had with the first study is
that was concentrated in that you went to basin area,
But we did have stuff around the United States, but
nothing outside of the United States. Now we're all over
the place. They were in Australia, there's there was going
to Puerto Rico. They're all over the place.
Speaker 1: I'm curious.
Speaker 3: During that first study, so you said like the majority
of the censors were in the Unitah basin.
Speaker 1: Am I saying that right? Unita?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it's you went you went to Okay, Yeah.
Speaker 3: Anyway, did you find that people that were not in
the you went to basin they had like maybe the
same sort of intensity of signal or or during the
same sort of like a person that saw a ORB
in Los Angeles, did they have sort of the same
sort of signatures as someone that saw it in the
Unitah basin? Or was unitad tended to have like higher
numbers if I'm sort of describing that correctly.
Speaker 2: So it is more frequent, I would say more frequent
there the intensity, I would say no, because one of
the metrics that we went through or we had, is
that they had to have a certain level of So
we send everything through an ai l M, which basically
gives us the intensity of what they're narrating to us, right,
they'll put like a paragraph to describe what it is,
and then we put it through this AI model, which says,
you know, this person had an intensity of you know,
one through or one through ten, and they would give
like an eight. And so they all seemed to have
and we had a threshold that had to be above
like a I think it was four in order to
even qualify as a point. But most of the people
that put these narratives in all had these intensities well
into the high you know, eights and things like that.
So when they say that they had an experiment experience
and they felt like they went out their body or
they saw something they saw in orbit, saw a crap,
they all had the same intensity. And then the signals
were basically the same as well, So the instrumentation would
pick up these signals. They were all basically the pinnacle
of it or the height of it were usually the same.
So it would get up to twenty two K or
get up to twenty three K, and that might just
be a function of the equipment that's measuring. But what
you find is that you went to basin it was
more regular they instead of doing it all, instead of
having an event like once every month or once every
two months, and some of the people you went to
basin would have one like every two weeks or things
like that. So it's just more more regular.
Speaker 1: So let's let's talk about phase two. You mentioned you
have new equipment and whatnot.
Speaker 3: Can you show us some of that and maybe sort
of a yeah, how the signals and everything work?
Speaker 2: All right, So this is the portal that the participants
would view and most of it is the historical data.
So you can see I've got three different devices up here,
one at blink Frog Ranch, which is just a device
that's sitting out there in blind Frog Ranch. There's one
Hestelin Valley right now. You know, they're deep into their day.
I don't even know it's late. Oh it's in the morning.
Actually that's interesting. And then there's another test device here.
But basically what you see here is what the data
is from these devices that are out in the all
over the world, and it's collecting continually collecting data. And
you can see that. You know, as as I go
through my day, these these waveforms change and I can
go through and select all sorts of different things like
I can for my device, I could this is the
Geiger counter that's looking at radiation of gamma rays. This
is this is the so this is the magnometer. So
this is something that if you look at this, this
is the magnetic field that's around you, and this is
the gyroscopic Now right now, there's really nothing going on.
But you know, if I maybe switched to say, okay,
how's it going for the entire day, you know, this
is the look for the This is the look for
the entire day that we're going through. So we'll put
it back to our and then so basically this is
what the system is gathering continuously throughout the day. So
for this device, or say a blind Frog ranch will
look at blind Frog Ranch's data and basically what you
get here is just like these waveforms that come through. Now,
this is not a very big spike right here. That's
only eleven k. Usually when you have a nominalous events,
they're probably up into the twenty two thirty two, you
know something, and like you'll see a major device of
but then you might see also a gamma spike of
So if you look over here and this is the
gamma one of the Gama sensors in the next direction
that's you know, going horizontal and maybe there's a you know,
a big spike there. If we get a big spike
at the same time that we have a spike in
one of the other fields, that's when we consider it
to be a something of very significance and something that
we want to look at. And then of course we
can switch over to some real time stuff and look
at it in real time, and then we can see,
you know, what's going on with we can see what's
going on with the data in real time amazing.
Speaker 3: And is and clearly there's there's and this stuff is
like it's it's recording twenty four to seven, right.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So it's streaming back to the cloud. So we
use the AZOR, which is Microsoft's cloud, which is all
hip A compliant and basically you know, you can't break
into it, so whatever data gets up there is safe.
So a lot of our all of our participants are
very worried about you know, their personal data things all
lo like that, so we make sure that everything that
they do is all protected from you know, anybody intrusion
or something like that. And so what we also have,
so these are three devices that I'm looking at one
the Hasselton Valley black Frog Ranch, and then a test device.
But we also have a lot of other devices available
for people. So we've got these public devices all throughout
the world. Basically that when you become a when you
become a member of the study, you get to monitor.
And so we got restland forests, We've got this is
a person down in Chile that has a really really
amazing things going on. We've got Carla Crusher, which is somebody.
Oh that's the person, you know, Yeah, that's one of
his his his device that he's made public. Very nice
of him. And then we have a bunch of other ones.
Thunderstrike Branch was another ranch in uh and you you
went to base and that is very very crazy. And
then you know, so we have all these and then
you have what's great is that you also have access
to your own personal devices. So I've got a bunch
of personal devices I can look at, and then I
have other data feeds, so I can look at ADSB,
I can look at satellite trackers, you know, all within
this the confines of this system, you know, I can
monitor these things, and you know, I can look at imagery,
so This is imagery coming from the device. These are
spectrums coming from the device, and these are all things
that you know, you can look at. So but when
somebody interests is study a lot of this stuff, we
don't let them see for another three days. So although
it's it's you know current right now, I'm mine, So
this is my device and I get real time. Somebody
else would come in and not be able to see
this for three days because we want them to not
influence what's going on and say, oh, you know, look
at that. You know, I had an experience and stuff
like that. And then they would come over here into
this area and they would enter like you know, on
you know whatever data. I had a strange sensation that
somebody was watching me, and they can upload pictures, I
mean so and then like over here they say, I
woke up and there was you know, there was you know,
while I was walking outside, I felt lightheaded and then
I looked up. And so this is their journal system
that they can go and they can add you know,
whatever they want into the system and provide us with
some if you know, some narrative or this is their
journaling system that they're allowed to do. So this is
all super private. Nobody has access to this except for them,
and basically even we don't see it. I mean we
don't we don't really look at this data. We have
our AI models look at them that pull out all
the information that we're interested in seeing.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that was actually going to be my next question.
I'm looking at this going wow, this is a ton
of a ton of data to process, and was curious,
how how you how you analyze that? I mean, that's
got to be just a bucketload of stuff every day.
Speaker 2: So at one o'clock in the morning, what happened is
that we have if something can't kicks off, a little
program or not a big program that kicks off that
takes all the data from all three hundred devices and
all the annotations that have been put in throughout the day.
They run it through a model and it looks to
see it looks for events that happen. This is just
a sample of this particular device. So like for instance,
there was a you know, there's you know, sudden spike
in humidity, and then there is you know, there is
there is things that are created by this this this
device doesn't have anything. This is a test device, so
it doesn't really have anything, but these devices get this
these events that happen that are then sent out as
an alert or notification to people, so they don't really
have to look at you know, they don't have to
look at this thing constantly. But we have these AI
bots that go in and look for these anomalies. They
try to find a point where like the incident reports
and a narratives match up with some anomalous event that
actually create these these notifications that we send out. So
people are basically are going to sit there and then
they can click on the notification and see what the
data looked like, you know, back you know, they don't
get the notification like if something happened right now to somebody,
you know, in a couple of days from now, they
would get a notification to say, you know, back two
days ago, this is what happened. Here's the data that happened.
And then it lets them kind of understand what's going on,
and it gives them a sense of a powerful sense
of being able to control what's going on because they
can actually see it. Once you can measure something, you
basically get this feeling of control.
Speaker 3: And so when when you left phase, when phase one
ended and you started hearing from these people. I was curious, like,
you know what about this made them sort of feel
feel better about what was going on. So essentially, as
I understand it, the fact that they're able to see
data and go okay, yeah, I didn't imagine that something
did obviously right.
Speaker 2: If something did happen right, and that's and that's a
that's a way of doing it. I forgot what the
exact name of it is, but that's a psychological thing
that that a lot of interviewers do to reinforce that
to make them really want to really want to be
more explicit with their narratives and be more involved in
the system. So these are I'm going to switch screens
on you a little bit. So here is some of
the anomalies that happened over the past where you could
see like this is the gyroscope and it made a
very funny thing. But at the same time, somebody put
a narrative and sometimes they sign off and allow me
to actually put the narratives in Like lights flickered, bones glitched,
so something happened, and at the same time we had
this crazy reading in the gyroscopic sensor. This is one
where we had something happened letromagnetic the microwave radiation sensor.
Where we were going along, it looked like just random
noise and all of a sudden, crazy stuff happened. But
every time, this red box only occurs when we have
a narrative associated with this data. So when we saw
this data, well you know, I didn't physically see it.
When the AI model saw this data, it said, oh
wait a minute, that's crazy. It looks up in the
narratives and says, is the narrative enough to spark a
data point? And is it within some timeframe of this
of this event happening. And then it kicks off, says okay,
this is a valid point, and then it you know,
it logs it, it sends out these alerts. I want
to call them alerts notifications. So these are all events
that happened. You know, we've got three hundred of these.
These are the good ones, you know, the things that
really happen. But you could see that there's a spike here,
and around this time somebody you know, made mention that
something happened to them. There were some spikes here. My
wife had a stabbing headache for two minutes. I see.
So again these are narratives that we were allowed to
put on here because people signed off and they said,
yeah you could, you can put these in. But most
of this stuff is super personal, right like for instance,
the person said that Orban was created and you know
there was an orb here. A lot of things kind
of happened during this time. So you know, this is
this is sampling that I wanted to show everybody that
you know, we do collect this crazy data. Look, you know,
this is an enormous spike. You know, how do you
create that in nature without something anomalous happening. So this
is the kind of thing that the system's looking for
and trying to marrying it to what people are saying
in their narratives. And then it kicks off that point
and says, okay, yeah, this is a legit point and
it could be used you know, in our in our
scientific investigation. And then so that's one of them. And
then we had another situation where we instrumented a property
in New Hampshire and there was a whole bunch of
people that got involved in this project. So like Gary
Nolan uh uh, Travis actually got involved with this, David
Shraeber and we actually instrumented this person's property that was
seeing almost every two or three weeks, they were seeing
these crafts that fly around and you can see these crafts.
They were taking pictures of them. And what we did
is we instrumented it with one of our devices and
we found out that it was this amazing situation that
happened is that, you know, during one of these episodes
where they saw something, they you know, they saw something
with their camera. So camera took a picture of something
on This is in twenty twenty four, okay. And during
the time that that showed up, that ORB showed up,
we were getting This is the data that came out
of there. So this green line was the gamma and
during that time the gamma spike. Normally the gamma is
this bottom line here. It just stays there all the time,
and then all of a sudden, when that ORB showed up,
it went crazy. And then this is this purple line
here is actually when the ORB was visible on the camera,
but you could see it had this enormous spike. And
this that's the green line. The blue line is the
electromagnetic spectrum. Normally, the blue line sits between these two
red dotted lines and it just sits there and just
you know, this has wavy lines. But during the time
when the ORB was present, it went way up and
it just all this electromagnetic energy. And then this again
with the man. This is the magnometer, which is basically
the magnetism in the area, like the gravity vector and
things like that. During the time the ORB was present,
this thing just spiked and it spiked in the gyroscope
as well. So that was one of the things back
on the twenty fourth in twenty twenty four. Since then,
there's been quite a few other ones that have happened
that are probably just as good or maybe even better
than this. But this is one that we documented and
I'm allowed to actually show this one. The other ones
I'm not allowed to.
Speaker 3: Show sure although, and were they seeing solid craft or
just orbs, Well, that's the thing we don't know.
Speaker 2: They illuminated in a camp, so whether or not they
were solid or not, it remains to be understood. But
we know that they they were emanating electromagnetic energy because
we read it with a camera. So it was a
dot on a camera and when it appeared, it gave
off these signals. But it wasn't super bad. I mean,
most people think UFO is going to come screaming by.
It was slow. It was going maybe you know, maybe
one hundred miles an hours or a time, I mean
like ten miles an hour. We just went past the property.
But then again it was way out there, so we
don't know how fast it was going actually because we
didn't have a depth perception. But it went by the property.
It probably took about ten minutes to go past the
entire property, so it was going pretty slow. Yeah, yeah,
So and then of course we looked at ADSB. We said,
is it an aircraft? Is it a satellite? We went
through all of that stuff and then nothing was reported.
But we did get these crazy signals when it went
through when buy the property, but we were never able
to understand what it physically was.
Speaker 3: Now, the spikes in gamma radiation, is that enough to
negatively affect a human who would.
Speaker 1: Be in that area?
Speaker 2: You know, yes, because I've seen this happen. I've seen
this happen before on devices to get to this level,
to get up to this level, and that's when people, Now,
this person didn't report anything, you know, may the whole
family was inside. This was something that was all done
outside at I think of the middle of the night. Wow, yeah,
this is I guess in the middle of the night.
But I've seen this magnitude of gamma and then people
would report, you know, going back to this guy, people
would report, I don't have one available, but we do
have some gamma spikes where people reported that they did
have an experience. They did, you know, feel that they
were being watched, or they had this out of body
or they felt they were abducted or something like that.
Speaker 3: Would any of them with this amplitude have of you know,
negative effects like overexposure to radiation type stuff.
Speaker 2: So I also they upload, so a lot of the
people so I allow them to when they had incidents
like that, I allow them to upload pictures and they can.
I've had a lot of people like add in pictures
of like lesions or rashes that appeared or something that
happened on their face. So we've got a lot of
that that happened. And you know, it is very surprising that,
you know, these people love to put this stuff on there.
We don't know who they are, you know, I know
who they are, but you know, the audience to people
that look at this stuff don't know who they are,
but you know, they're willing to provide the data for
us to look at and use it in our in
our system. So it's it's very interesting that these people
claim to have experiences during those periods of anomalist signal,
show upload pictures of you know, their anatomy that has
like rashes and lesions and you know, bloody noses and
all sorts of things that happened to them. So, yeah,
absolutely amazing.
Speaker 3: Now I would love to see what this equipment actually
looks like.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so right now we have two different two different
pipes of equipment. Right now we have the mupas Mini,
which is a desktop version. I can actually show you.
I can show you that one. It's a it's a
very small device that sits on your you know, basically
people put them in like their family room or they're
most visited part of the house where a lot of
the experiences happened and they just sit there and it
just collects data all day long. And you can plug
in a whole bunch of stuff. You could put plug
in radiation detectors, you can plug in a camera, you know,
some you can some people put cameras in them. So
they can get the anomalous things going by and put
the camera in the window looking up at the stars,
and you can put in spectrometers and things like that
into this device. So this is one of the devices
that we have that we provide to them and they,
you know, have the ability. And then here's all the sensors.
So there's accelerometers, the magnometers, the gyroscopes, subs, gravity sensors,
the acoustic sensors, humidity, barometric pressure, temperature. We even look
at bock gases that you know might be making a
difference GPS. Then we can also have an optional microwave sensor.
And then we you know, it all comes with a
this this portal, you know that I show you that
you can go online and you know, view your data,
view the notifications and all that kind of stuff and
put in your narratives. And then we have another one.
This is our biometric This actually is about a year old.
We hadn't really it wasn't in the beginning, but we
noticed that people kept saying that, look, you know, when
the cool thing happened, I'm not home, I'm out in
my car, I'm in school. So I said, okay, so
we came up with this Moupas Biometric, which is basically
a smart watch that we connected to the system. And
this thing actually does this really cool stuff and it
has heart rate, it has find most find muscle motion,
which means it can sense tremors. And this is what
we used. The tremor sensing is what we use to
see what the excitement or the nervousness of the person
is when they're having these experiences. Right, if somebody was
calm and relaxed and everything was cool, that's you know,
then maybe they're not. But if it's like they're they're
shaking and things like that, that means that this is
a significant experience that they were you know, really getting into.
And then you does all the same stuff. Microwave does
a little gamma and has accelerometer and all this other
stuff all built into it and it sits on your
smartphone and then they have the same access to their
you know, all their data and stuff like that. So
these are the two devices that we we have available
that people have been using. Wow, and then we've got
I think, like I said, I think we're up to
four hundred. I'd have to check, but I think we're
up to four.
Speaker 3: Hundred and are you wanting to get to ten thousand?
Speaker 1: And do you think you'll reach that number?
Speaker 2: We're funded to ten thousand, so we have so if
you look at this is a write up that we
provide for everybody to tell them that you know we're funded,
you know you help us, so we need to get up.
So what we did is about when we first started
the study, we said what do we need to reach
the reach the goal of five sigma because right now
we're four point five segment, which is okay but not great.
To get to phase two, we said, we want to
go to five sigma, which is the you know, the
standard for everything. And we did a calculation. What do
we need for population, what do we need for statistics,
what do we need for spread of devices? You know,
we want to have concentrations and devices, And we figured
out we needed at least ten thousand devices or experiencers
worldwide to basically get to the point where we have
the right amount of statistics. So ten thousand is our goal.
And our sponsor, the person that actually is funding this,
has said that they would stick with us up to
ten thousand.
Speaker 1: That's a lot.
Speaker 3: And because I'm sure you'll have the skeptics and the
debunkers come back and say, oh, these are solar flares
or somebody's WiFi or maybe a police car going by
on his radio. Having this number of data points, does
that solidify or make producing a paper, a peer reviewed
paper more likely to pass. I would think it would.
Speaker 2: Well, it is in that we're marrying to the Advantage
that we have is that we're not just taking the
environmental data, which you see here, so this is just
one piece of the data. What we're doing is we're
marrying in what these people are actually seeing through the incidents.
It's through ports. So when you take those together, it's
not if it's a police card they want buy, they
wouldn't have an experience, they wouldn't be documenting, or you know,
if it was a solar flare, they wouldn't be documenting
the things that actually make it. So that data point
is legit. So we're doing so we're collecting data from
the human and we're collecting data from the environment, and
we're marrying them together in a statistical model, and that's
what makes it a relevant point.
Speaker 3: Now, how does someone apply to be a part of
this study? And do you have to pay for Uh,
does a consumer if you want to call them a consumer.
Speaker 1: Uh, do they have to pay for the device? Like?
How does all of that work?
Speaker 2: Yeah? So basically it's all written up in here and
what you have to do. So we basically ask you to,
you know, to sign up. You sign up, and we
ask for a one time fee, which is the fee
to make sure that we don't get like hordes of
people coming in. So and then we return that fee
after they're in, you know, because we got a lot
of people that come in and they don't you know,
they don't follow through, and it's like, okay, so we
just asked for like thirty bucks and then we give
it back to them. And then we asked them to
take a survey. And their survey is important because if
we don't we don't know something about them, then we
really can't understand what's going on with them. So we
ask them to fill out a survey which gives us
a little information about them. Then they select one of
the devices, either a miny or a watch, and then
basically they you know, they sign an agreement that said
they won't throw in the garbage, and then we send
it to them. And then what we do is we
ask them to contribute a certain amount per month that
we send back to them if they participate regularly. So
we have people that don't pay anything because they're constantly
going on putting in nervous What we want when we
have somebody come into the study, we want them to
put in narrative. So if they you know, if they
come in every day and they put in narratives, then
basically they don't really pay anything and we give them
the money back for the thirty dollars. But and then
we also don't charge them for you know, if they
participate and they're actively putting in narratives and they're participating
in this study, then they're basically it doesn't cost them
a penny. And then here's if they if anybody's interested,
here's you know, you could look at the QR and
you could scan the cure code or go to this
this site to get to Actually it's this page over
here that you know that you come to, but this
is the site that we have.
Speaker 3: Now, how long do you get to keep this device
or or how long is phase two going to last?
Speaker 1: Let's say I got one tomorrow, how long how long
would I have this thing.
Speaker 2: That's a good question. I think that people are going
to get what happened if it happened. The same way
is that people experiencers don't stop experiencing. They have these
profound experiences throughout their lives. When once they start, they
continue to do things things for a very long period
of time. So I would estimate that these people would
not want to give up and stay in the study
because it gives them that sense of control over what's
going on with them. So I don't really have anything
to say that you know, it's going to end after
a year or something like that. My goal is to
get to sigma five point zero sigma. Once I get
to that point, you know, who knows, I would like
to continue and move on and do other things and
experiment and do a lot of interpersonal experiments, like have
people like try to see if they can influence other
members and you know, try to make it so they
can intent on somebody else and change their data without
their data actually being affected by some environmental signals.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that is really amazing because I think so many
people were all used to hearing the stories, which most
of which I believe, but to see that there's actually
data scientific data that correlates with it. I think that
is that is really something I'm curious, Like the whole
alien abduction thing. You'll hear people say, yeah, you know,
I saw these beings at the foot of my bed,
floated out of the room, et cetera. And then you'll
also hear people say that it was more of like
a dream or they feel that it happened, but it
was like in a dream state. Have you noticed any
difference between the two in terms of signals.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so we do get that both. You do get
the people that feel they were physically abducted and the
people that feel that they're conscious was abducted. And I
think the conscious abducted is prevalent. I mean, I mean,
like one hundred and one that they're the quantity. So,
but the people that feel that they're conscious where they
feel that they go on someplace. So they were brought someplace,
either on a craft or someplace remote, and they acting
with what was ever there. So they feel that they
physically left their body. And of course they don't feel
that they you know, I shouldn't say physically their their
their consciousness, consciousness left their body. The people that claim
that they physically were abducted. Those people sometimes don't really
And what's interesting is that the narratives that you get
from these people, you could put it through their AI
models and see exactly you know, you know, did they
go away, did they did they were they frightened, were
they anxious? Were they you know, what was their sentiment
at that particular point. And what you find out is
that the people that feel that had been you know,
basically their consciousness abducted have much more profound experiences than
people that say that they were physically abducted. So you
tend to believe that, you know, there's a big difference
between the two of them. But there's a lot of
problems with physical abduction. You know, how did you get
you know, how did they get you through the walls?
How do they do all these things? But biousness is
an intellectual thing that seems to be a lot better
to understand and rationalize how that could happen.
Speaker 3: So, like you said, I barely passed college, and I
certainly certainly failed college physics. But this thought came to
me one day, and I'm curious if you think that
it could this hypothesis could be possible, because I was thinking,
it's like, okay, you know, you you here in the literature,
all these people you know, floating you know, through walls
or through the ceiling, or beings coming through the walls
and whatnot.
Speaker 1: And so I've been.
Speaker 3: Thinking it's like, well, how how would that physically happen?
And I remembered the graphic on the God the documentary
that just came out having a.
Speaker 2: Sea, Yeah, the one that just said you're to ye
what we're.
Speaker 3: Both Yeah, the folks at home probably know what we're
talking about, but this, it was this graphic that showed
this kind of like space time warp bubble around the craft.
So I thought, okay, well, what if the mechanical way
of them doing this is a craft hovers above a home.
And obviously this craft, would you know, to propel itself,
has the ability to manipulate space time. What if it
had the ability to expand that bubble such that it
encompassed the home or a bedroom or something like that.
Would could that possibly be if somebody's within that time distortion?
Could that possibly be like how they would get floated
through a wall or whatever.
Speaker 2: Absolutely? Yeah, So when we talk about the gyroscopic sensor
going off, and we started talking about the gamma rays
going off. If you had this warp bubble or this
metric that was around their ship, did they expand it
out and encompass the other people? The sensor would then say, Okay,
something's going on, and so it would pass through the
sensor and the sensor would do a jiggle. Right, you'd
see this jiggle going on, or you'd see a bunch
of gamma rays because every time you have something like that,
something energetic, you have a lot, you have a shower
of these gamma particles that you would then the sensor
picks up. So yeah, I think that's probably one of
the better hypotheses is that whatever they're doing, they're actually
enveloping this hole, their environment in this bubble, so it
appears to them that, you know, time hasn't changed. You know,
they're just basically living in there in this due time frame.
But then when they return back and they go back
through the bubble, they're back in their normal time. So
that's very, very possible. And then the question is how
far away is this crap doesn't necessarily I mean wormholes
of One of the things that I worked with Travis
with is these you know, is it possible that a
lot of the phenomenon that we're saying is because there's
wormholes that are being created by some remote civilization that
actually ends up looking at us. And that's really just
a censor. I mean, no matter to passes through, but
a consciousness information could pass through, So you could be
living your consciousness could be living within that within that wormhole,
and end up being you know, millions of miles away.
Speaker 3: So if I do end up going back to college
and I take physics again, I might actually might actually
pass this time.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it just better maybe FaceTime metric. Yeah, and find
out that it's it's it's a real thing.
Speaker 1: Wow, Yeah, yeah, it's Yeah. The whole thing just boggles
my mind.
Speaker 3: But speaking of something else that kind of boggles my mind,
is this whole hitchhiker effect that we hear about. Sure,
tell us what in your view the hitchhiker effect is.
Speaker 1: Do you think it's real?
Speaker 3: And when did you realize that it was truly a
recognizable pattern?
Speaker 2: Well, you asked the question earlier about you know, my uh,
if I had any reservations about going on the ranch
or anything like that, or going in that area and
stuff like that, and at that point when I was
first introduced to this, I didn't really think about that
or know about that. But there are a lot of
people that won't go anywhere near the ranch because they
don't really feel that they're going to get hurt. They
feel that they're going to bring something back and their
family is going to get hurt or their friends are
going to get hurt. And it's possible, it's statistically relevant
that people that do visit these areas, and not just
Skinwalker but the whole area end up having other issues
back home or wherever they're normally staying, and other people
start having issues. So it's more than just a casual
of coincidence that there was, you know, a bunch of people.
Colin Keller, her and Kick Green and all those scientists.
They've spent time understanding this hitchhiker effect and actually, you know,
came up with some statistics to say that, in fact,
it is true that people when people come back, it
is statistically significant that they do sometimes pass on the
phenomena to other people and they start having experiences and
injuries or illnesses or things like that that are unexplainable.
Speaker 3: I mean, I can understand how a dog is going
to follow you home. But how what is the hypothesis
of how this phenomenon follows somebody home hundreds of miles
away from the ranch. Is it like a virus that
spreads What could be the mechanism of how this might work.
Speaker 2: Well, just think about it in terms of like a connection,
a communication between these people. So they bring it home,
and then once they're connected to this individual, they say, oh,
that's an interesting individual too, so they might include that
person and their communication, and then that person starts interacting
with that phenomena. So it's like I said, it's the
people that spark the phenomena to start acting in very
anomalous ways. So that's and it doesn't matter where you are.
I mean, we find out not a distance case, because
we've had things happened, you know, across the world where
you know, somebody over here would have an experience and
somebody over here would have an experience and they would
have very similar experiences and at the same exact time.
We've had a lot of those cases. So it's just
when they have the experience, it's you know, is the
is this phenomena interfering interacting with them? And then what's
to say that that it's not skipping to the next
person that they are interacting with, you know, the person's
interacting with, so I you know, it's you know, there's
a lot of work done. It says that the hitchhiker
is real enough to say, well, and there's a lot
of people scared of it, and they said, I'm not
going to go anywhere near those place because I'm worried
about bringing some home.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you can count me in that group.
Speaker 3: So, so, does this stuff actually wear off or once
you're pitch hiked so to speak, is it permanent?
Speaker 2: According to the people that we've ever talked to, once
they start having these things, it's continuous. They just continue
to have them throughout their lives. And there's people that are,
you know, in their seventies that say, you know, they
had their original experience when they were you know, very young,
you know, in their twenties, and then ever since they've
had these things go. So I've never heard of so
that's actually not true. So I've heard of a lot
of people lately, and a lot of people that are
in the study and they use the devices for this,
they learn how to remove this phenomena from them, so
they actually make it so they can continuate and make
the because when you know something about the phenomena, it
tends to go away. It tends to go away. So
they've learned how to make it go away just by
being involved in the studies. So, you know, a lot
of people don't want to have it in their lives.
They're you know, it's dangerous to them, or they're you know,
they it's upsetting to them, and they want to get
rid of it. So they join the study and they
get control, not control of it, but you know, they
kind of have a feel of it, and then from
that they're allowed to, uh, you know, they slowly make
it go away.
Speaker 3: You hear like people that have like paranormal stuff or
Poulter guysed stuff in their house, like if they burn
sage or doing, you know, do things like that that
to me, it seems like it wouldn't do anything, but
they claim that it really works. So do you think
it could be a similar sort of mechanism, Like how
much does being open to it or inviting it versus
you saying no, you're not welcome in my home.
Speaker 1: How effectual is that?
Speaker 2: Well, I don't know the exact process. These people use.
But there's some people that are coaching others. We have
a thing in our in our system where you can
actually talk to a subject matter expert and somebody that
can actually go through and help you. So we have
those like it's like not a consular but it's somebody
that helps you do this and they have methods to
help them help other people deal with these experiences. Again,
these people, you know, some of these people are traumatized
by these things. So you know, is it you know,
I guess you could teach us to teach whatever it
is to you can control it. Actually, I guess that's
more of a way to put it.
Speaker 3: So Jim, I have to ask, have you brought anything home?
Have you experienced the hitchhiker effect yourself?
Speaker 2: I have not, but you you know, I don't believe
I have because it's very difficult to actually tell. You
have you raise your eyebrow with certain things? They say, well,
you know why that person gets sick, and there's not
a genetic thing in our family or things like that.
So there are situations where people will pick up these
strange autoimmune diseases that are you know, very prevalent in
experiencers and no genetic evidence that is prevalent in any family.
So you know, my personal experience has been that it's
a little big, it's a question mark there. So I
don't really know if I brought something back, and I
would never admit it to them anyway.
Speaker 3: Okay, okay, we've spoken about the view into basin and
if you know Skinwalker, Skinwalker hitchhikes people and you have
this at blind Frog Ranch, are there other hot spots
in the world that maybe people are not as familiar
with where this sort of stuff is spreading.
Speaker 1: For lack of a better way of explaining it.
Speaker 2: Well, Hesselden out in Norway is an area that gets
a lot of off strains things. We've got three or
devices oh in Norway, yeah, Held Valley. Yeah, so it's
a it's a big hot spot. It's been for years,
a lot of things happening. We've got three devices there
that constantly monitor and we can look at that and
people can comment on it. And then there's some people
that are actually in the valley there that actually get it.
So and then there's a lot of other stuff going on.
Australia is just chalk full of areas that have very
very strange things going on. So we've got like four
or five devices in there that record some amazing things.
So and there's places all over the you know, the
world that have a lot of hotspots, So just because
and you know, it's kind of interesting that one of
the reasons that we want to get to ten thousand
devices because if we can map the world and show
where the hotspots are and kind of get a like
a heat map over the world to see where this
experiences are prevalent. I mean, of course you have to
count for populations, and you have to count for weathers
and things like that, but we you know, one of
the reasons to get the numbers at high is because
we want to be able to answer that question where
are the other hotspots and are they concentrated in areas?
Are they you know, are they remote? Are they in
population areas and things like that. So there's a lot
of interesting questions that could be answered once you get
your number of people that high enough.
Speaker 1: Okay, we've heard from Gary Nolan.
Speaker 3: Doctor Gary Nolan has been on our show quite a
few times, and he's spoken about how people that have
encountered UAP, either working for the government or not, have
often received sort of like brain injury, and I'm not
going to even attempt to describe what it is because
I'll totally butcher the thing. But I want to talk
about Havana syndrome. And I know this is something you've
looked into, so US diplomats getting these same sort of
mysterious brain injuries. You've studied this are UAP brain injuries
and Havana syndrome. Literally the same thing in terms of
you know, same kind of like signature, symptoms, signals that
you would see in a MRIs or anything distinguishable.
Speaker 1: Between the two.
Speaker 2: Yeah, a fact, there was one of the things going
back when the Havana Center people started going out, so
they were you know, they were publishing. We didn't get
all full data at that point, but as data started
coming up, we started hearing information like the National Academy
of Sciences published, We had a lot of information available
to us. We found out that a lot of the
patients that came in a prevalent amount of the patients
that were diagnosed with this had these accidental breaks. That
means that your action on the things that interconnect your
brain would break basically and would start to bleed. You
get these micro bleeds which show up on a certain MRIs,
and the people that had gotten these MRIs, most of
the people that were in the that were categorized and
diagnosed with this had these accidental bleeds acconal bleeds. And
so we said, oh, that's interesting. So we went back
to a lot of the people that we were looking
at we had medical information on. We went back and
looked at their MRIs and churn up a lot of
them had the same acconal bleeds. So and it's like,
if you think about it, if like a boxer, you know,
gets hit with a punch, your head in credit trauma,
and then you're because your accents are sitting in water,
mostly they'll they'll they'll break and bleed. It happens when
you're hit your head with a car. So normally, accidental
bleeding is done when you have some trauma to your head,
like a car accident or a boxer or something happens
to you. But these people didn't, they didn't have anything.
They were, you know, sitting in their own rooms or
these people that saw UFOs, they were just you know,
in their houses or driving in their cars. They didn't
have any trauma. Yet they had the same type of
injuries that the Havanas syndrome people have. So now that's
one of the indicators that there is, you know, Havana syndrome.
A patient is to look at their MRIs and see
if they go through this ttis they go through the
special MRI, which shows that they have these microbleeds in there. Unfortunately,
the microbleeds the blood that comes out of your accents
are so tiny and anticipates it takes about a year
to dissipate. It's hard to go back to these people
after a long period of time to see what it is. So,
you know, that's unfortunate. But that's just the way it is.
Speaker 3: One thing that I've heard, and I'm just curious your
personal opinion kind of a conspiracy theory. Do you think
that the havana weapon that foreign adversaries could be using
came from reverse engineered UAP technology. Is it something that
just appeared on the scene all of a sudden, or
does this like date back to the forties that kind
of thing.
Speaker 2: It could very well. I mean some of the stuff
you think about it to do what it did is
pretty damn advanced. You don't see the products or you
don't see the technologies that would have come along with
it appearing. Some of this stuff is just insane that
it would happen. So and to do that big of
population that much energy, If you go through and figure
out how much energy it actually needs, it's incredible. So
when you look at the National Academy of Science, they
published something back about two years ago and they said
it was some type of energy device that actually produced
this thing. But to have that large of a volume,
it must have been enormous. So how do you do
that without being detected? Because they said they didn't know
where it came from, but they know what they knew
what it was, you know, they and then there was
another well well read application from another scientific group that
said basically, yeah, we agree that it's a some electromagnetic
spike pulse that that came and did this. So, you know,
is it the government thing? Who knows? If it is?
Why haven't we seen some other things that would relate
to that technology being available for that type of thing. Usually,
like when somebody invents something super terrific that's used in weapons,
eventually it matriculates down to the rest of the products
in technologies.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's it's I know a couple of people that
have been have vanded one one was in national security
in the first Trump administration, and I also people that
are used to be in the intelligence world that experienced
it as as as well. So I mean this what
you're the work you're doing is is just amazing with
this uh, with this move past?
Speaker 1: Am I saying it right? Mopass study?
Speaker 3: And again, how can folks go and apply to be
a part of this study?
Speaker 2: Yeah, So we have a website that you can go
to that will explain exactly what we have available and
what the devices are, what you do, you know, how
do you get involved? And you can scan the QR code.
You can go to this site and basically you can
come over here and it brings you to this and
you can read all about it. You can look at
the devices, you can click and you can look at
the Phase one study results. You can see all the
information that we gathered for Phase one, which is you know,
public information. Now that it's been it's been out there,
we have so much information available that you know, how
we did it, what we did, what are the results,
and things like that. So you know, if you're interested
in looking at and being involved and understanding what we're
doing and why we're doing it. You can have a
nice little website here that provides that information so you know, again,
so this is the website, THEURL experience for studies dot
com oopous study two, or you can just scan this
on your phone and it'll actually go right to it.
Speaker 3: The microbleeds are could any of them be related.
Speaker 1: To sort of poor.
Speaker 3: Habits in terms of high blood pressure or high cholesterol
and also being above say like fifty.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm not a medical doctor, but I don't believe.
So I think that one of the conclusions that the
microbleed is a trauma based thing. So you're actually shocking
your neurons and they're basically sharing and they're moving apart.
So it's a physical thing that happens. What we did
show is that you can get that through an electromagnetic
type of pulse. So electromagnetic pulse can go through your
head and because of the way your your physiology is
inside your accent, it'll actually would tear it apart. But
it's not a you know, it's not a health thing.
It can't really your body can't just simultaneous or spontaneously
you know, share your accents. But it's it's so suspicious
because it's your your accents are splitting and bleeding, and
the only way to do that is to have a
physical mechanical force that actually does it. So it's either
through electromagnetic pulses doing it, or you have some type
of brain trauma, which is, you know, you get hit
in the head, or you you know, you have a
car accident where your head hits the airbag or whatever.
So that's you know, ninety nine point nine percent of
the people that have this is from head trauma.
Speaker 3: Jim, what needs to happen for universities and mainstream science
to finally take this stuff seriously?
Speaker 1: I mean, clearly there's a there there.
Speaker 3: What is the kind of tipping point that you think
we would need to reach for this not to be
a taboo subject.
Speaker 2: Well, I think that publishing a report that shows a
five sigma result would wake everybody up and say, wait
a minute, all right, see you've got a five Let's
see if we can go at it another way, another
another bunch of hypotheses and questions. You know, maybe we
can get that published. So but one of the things
that we're doing is that we're working with two universities now,
one of the East coast on the West coast, which
are there the archival type of repositories for other type
of data. And what we're allowing is that scientists, the
rule of scientists out there that want to get involved,
we're offering the data coming from this study to them,
of course in a very stripped down way that we
don't give out any personal information and let them go
forward so they can then propose to their people. Look,
I'm going to get this data from these studies you know,
millions of people, you know, millions of you know, pieces
of information, and I'm going to go try to answer
this particular question and to get funding. So we're going
to say from twofold or say, look, we're going to
show that it's okay to published here because if we
get the decent when we get our results, and also
we're going to provide the data that other people could
start producing.
Speaker 1: Well, Jim, thanks for joining us.
Speaker 3: This has really been something else, and congratulations on this
absolutely amazing study. I'm just incredibly excited about about this
and what is.
Speaker 1: Going to come out of it.
Speaker 3: Do you think that or do you have kind of
like a kind of time estimate as far as when
you think this paper would be produced. Is there a
critical mass? So are you not going to do it
until you hit that ten thousand? What will be the
sort of point where you say, okay, let's let's write
this paper.
Speaker 2: Well, I think the first paper that normally you write
is the process paper. Basically, what you do is you
write up this, say this is how I did it,
and you publish that. So that'll be done very very
soon because we want other people to do this. We
don't want to be you know, the worst thing you
can do is publish a paper that the only one
that did it. You want do you want to publish
a paper and say, look, there's three other groups doing this.
So the first paper that will come out and very
soon will be the published paper that said this is
how we did it, this is the statistical model, and
all that kind of stuff. And then once we start
hitting our milestones of significance in our statistical model, then
we'll start publishing and say okay, here's our result, and
then we might follow it up with another one says okay,
here here's another one, and then start following it up.
So I would say that once we hit the thousand mark,
which we're starting to get to pretty quickly. We're going
to start getting to the point where we can start
putting this down on paper and publishing and hitting the
journals with some dcent you get some really good Like
I said, there's these universities are very high level university,
so we can publish so easily with them.
Speaker 1: Fantastic.
Speaker 3: So, Jim, how can folks at home, if they're not
going to join the study, how can they at a
bare minimum follow your work? And you know these studies
that are going to come out.
Speaker 2: So we do have our social media, so growth to Facebook,
we have a whole bunch of things like that. We
have a Reddit channel. If you guys want to go
on Reddit, there is a place you can go and
you know, put comments in and listen to other people
talking and things like that. We're and then you can
go to the experiencer Reddit group. They're constantly talking about
this stuff. But you know, social media Twitter, Facebook and
all those things that you could follow us on and
then you know, get involved in the study. There's a
lot of podcasts out there that we've done and so
we're pretty much all over social media.
Speaker 1: Awesome.
Speaker 3: Well, Jim, thanks for joining us, and I look forward
to hearing having you back on the show to tell
us what you're finding out there.
Speaker 2: Yep, that'd be great. Thanks for having me folks.
Speaker 3: If you enjoyed our conversation with doctor Jim Sigala, you
will love this episode. Thanks for tuning in and if
you love our channel, please hit that subscribe button.
Speaker 1: See you next time.