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Speaker 1: It's actually been a fun adventure collecting all the conversations

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I have since twenty sixteen with those that have been

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featured on NBC's The Voice. Now, the question is can

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we put them all in one place and not let

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them be forgotten in history? Yeah you can. It's called

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arro dot net a R r Oe dot net. Look

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for that voice. Enjoy the exploration. Dax, I love your name, man.

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Why didn't you market that and put it up on

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like a rock star tour or something like that, and

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you know, make your way around the world with Madonna

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or even Bieber.

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Speaker 2: Right, you know what I mean. Well, listen, there's there's

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Dax Shephard. He's you know, he's out there doing his thing.

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You know, there's a whole story about these this. There's

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a few Daxes out there, and I've encountered a bunch

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of them. There's a new generation, but a bunch of

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us I found at one point, I know, we got

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to get into the story. But at one point someone

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put together a Twitter group and added me to it.

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This is years ago, and it was for all the

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Daxes that and I do think that there were a

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bunch of us that were probably born around the same time,

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whose parents saw the same movie and named us Dax.

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So that's what I that's what, you know, a little

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bit of the story.

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Speaker 1: Your podcast, Crying Wolfe. It really does get into an

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emotional place because one of the things that you know,

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we live in this age where it seems like that

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everybody's got a podcast, but my god, yours is the

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one that's sticking out right now, and it's like, what,

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what do you think is the secret sauce that you

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put into it?

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Speaker 2: Well, first of all, thank you. You know, there's a

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lot of incredible work out there, and you know, I'm

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impressed in aught every day by the things people are doing,

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the stories people are telling, and the way these folks

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are expanding the medium. And you're right though, there is

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a out there in the world. I think, honestly, man,

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you got to get out and do some real reporting. Yes,

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I think, I mean, I mean, this is no disparagement

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on folks, but I think there's a there's a you know,

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it's the podcast medium has enabled many of us to

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set it up and just get it going and start talking.

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You know, do we can do interviews, but to go

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out and do some footwork and get out in the

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world and get doing some deep research and talking to

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people and putting together soundscapes and really trying to pull

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We had to go through twenty years of prison interviews,

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between prison conversations between Robert and and and and Lee.

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I mean, this is this is a level of work

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in detail that my production team at Chalk and Blade

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did that. I'm just like in awe of myself. I

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am a small part of this story and just grateful

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to be part of it.

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Speaker 1: Well, I love your honesty and transparency on that when

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you call yourself something small, but yet you are the

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main driving force behind it. But I mean, but a

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lot of people don't have these beautiful teams such as yours.

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How is it you're able to keep it together? Because

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I mean, we live in twenty twenty five. There are

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a lot of egos out here.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I mean, my goodness, I think for me,

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I come to this work from print. You know, I've

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toiled away in the you know, in that old analog

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world for a long time, and so all I know

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is deep storytelling and all I know and someone has

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told me recently because this has been a year that

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I've rediscovered my own voice in a lot of ways,

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and this story is a part of it, which was

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that you do it for the people who are out

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there listening. You don't if you only do it thinking

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that the if you measure, if you only measure is

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if you get to the million people listening and x

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number of followers, then you know, good luck with that.

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But that's not going to be most people. But if

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you're doing it because you believe that there's somebody in

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the corner of the world that really is going to

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be touched by something you are doing, and you believe

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in that, then that's something different. And I'll say I'll

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add this last piece. You know, I always I'm being

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transparent like this. I I you know, someone like me doesn't.

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I don't get paid a lot of money to a

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project like this. You have to really care about it.

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You have to care about it, and you can't do

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it for that thing other than the fact that, like,

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I have an opportunity to tell a really powerful and

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important story and I'm gonna damn well do the best

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thing I can do and tell it as truthfully as

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I can.

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Speaker 1: One of the things that you do inside this is

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that you kind of really open up the eyes of

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anybody who might be you know, in prison or on

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the outside, going how can I get my guy my

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woman outside of prison? Because I don't know what we're

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doing right today, but a lot of people are coming out.

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What is it that you saw that is opening a

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lot of doors that we couldn't do back in the

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seventies or eighties.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I mean the short answer is like forensics,

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you know, short answer is D. But the longer answer is,

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I think momentum and movements. You know, once momentums, Once

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a momentum becomes a movement, a movement becomes a force

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of its own, and it starts to you know, capture

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different people who may not have always been the most extreme,

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like progressive life. This kind of a movement, I think

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captures people who are even more who are more mainstream

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in terms of their views regarding the criminal legal system,

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because I think all of us want to make sure

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we get it right. All of us want to make

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sure we get it right, because there before the grace

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of God goes us, you know, and these kinds of

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stories I think tell us that over and over again,

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Like this guy was walking down the street, this guy

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happened to be doing this. It could happen. You think

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it may not be you, but it could happen. So

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I think it's the movement. It's the momentum that becomes

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a movement. I think it's the technology and the forensics,

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and I think it's the broader awareness that we all

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have because of the storytelling that people have been done

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doing for so long. Now, over twenty some years, people

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have been telling stories, and I think it's helped us

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a lot.

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Speaker 1: Planted your listeners into the city of Chicago nineteen eighty nine,

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and you know what, My wife is from Chicago and

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she knows this story all too well. And it becomes

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you know, the star witness is your star suspect, and

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it's like, oh my god. You know if that doesn't

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sound like Hollywood, that's not supposed to happen in real life.

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Speaker 2: Oh it's you know. I think that's the thing that So,

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you know what drew me to it because I had

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just finished another podcast when I was was approached about

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working on this. I just finished them one on the

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Burden and we had done four year Deep Dive. I

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was like, I'm done. I can't do any moore of

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these wrongful convictions that just too gut wrenching. And then

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I got this invitation and I saw that piece, the

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crying wolf element of it, which is a guy Lee

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Harris is not you know, he doesn't have to clean

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his hands in the world. Let's be clear. He would

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you know, he'd be happy to sell up. But he'd

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be happy to sell up, sell some a you know,

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an unaware and a tourist entering Chicago, a bag of

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a regano and say and say it's something else. He'd

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be happy to do some little little jive hustle to

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get over. But he wasn't. He was a petty a

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petty criminal, a petty thief. He was not a murderer.

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He was not a killer, and that was never part

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of his mo So I think, like, you know, it's

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a it's a, it's a it's a. This story is

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is really powerful because it was powerful to me. It

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was because of the friendship between him and Robert. It

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was powerful because the way things flipped it is actually

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it's frightening. This guy goes from being star witness, meaning

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being he's being put up in a hotel by the detectives.

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He's being whined and dying for back of a better

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way of describing it. He's being brought, he there having it.

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He does twenty two statements for them, for the police

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as a witness, and then one day he becomes the guy.

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Speaker 1: Can you imagine No, no, no, we I you know

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more than most of us, but we all fear that

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moment where you know, wrong place at the wrong time,

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and sorry, the rest of your life is now. I

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don't know you're gonna get You're gonna get lost in

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a system right now.

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Speaker 2: I mean, he's he's a very expended he was an

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expendable person, unfortunately, and that's what I think happens quite often.

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But I'll stop there.

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Speaker 1: Wow, wow, you know you talk about that friendship and

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right away and maybe this is just the empathy or

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the compassion coming out of my soul, and it's like, wow, now,

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all of a sudden, that friendship is visible. Now. Now

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I've never been to prison. I don't know what prison

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is like, but when I hear that things are visible,

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you know, I have to take a second and a

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third breath.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, you know, I think it's important to

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even recognize, like Robert Chatler was this young guy who

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got himself into he became an addict, for the lack

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of a better way of describing it. And he became

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an addict, and his addiction became so ferocious that he was,

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you know, stealing anything and everything from everybody in his life,

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selling anything and everything. And he was a young man,

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early twenties, and his life had just taken a really,

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really hard wrong turn, and he ends up in prison

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and he has he actually has a couple of sellis

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before he meets Lee that are kind of frightening guys.

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But when he meets Lee and he enters the cell

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with Lee, Lee shows him, shows him a kindness that

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no one has shown him in a long time, you know,

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and it's simple kindness, like you can use my radio

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his his I don't. Lee didn't smoke himself, but he

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always kept a pack of cigarettes because that was currency

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he gives. Because he would give cigarettes to Robert because

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he knew Robert needed him. They were cooked together, you know,

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they would they would do all sorts of things. And

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in many ways, Lee is twenty years older than this guy.

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I mean, it's they're not They wouldn't have been friends

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on the street. It's a black guy from the projects,

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a white guy from the suburbs and they find in

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a bond and ultimately, you know, the funny thing is

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Lee actually kicks him out. Lee actually asks to have

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him kicked out of the cell because he smokes too much.

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But even when even when Robert was leaving, even when

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Robert was walking out of the prison, he stopped and

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told Lee, I'm gonna look into your case. And he

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kept and he kept his damn word, please.

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Speaker 1: Do not move. There's more with Dax Stevelan Ross coming

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up next the name of his podcast, Crying Wolf. We

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are back with podcaster Dax s Devlin Ross. Maybe this

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is just my judgmental self, because we're all judgers, and

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that is when when they were moving, Robert Sell closer,

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I'm gonna tell you, I mean, in my heart, I'm

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going what are they up to? What are they doing?

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Are they going to try to do something? Are they

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going to try to get information? What's going on? You know,

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I mean, all of a sudden, you know, you're a

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part of an episode of Perry Mason.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, it's funny because you know, Lee was already

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in largely because of a quote unquote jail house snitch,

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and that's a big part of the story is that

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there was a guy he actually never met but who

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said that he met, and he met Lee while they

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were he was in jail before he was actually convicted,

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and Lee confessed to him. So this had already happened

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to Lee. Somebody had already like tried to use the

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jail house snitch against him and been successful. And it

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was only because Lee's lawyers went through and found the

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FBI had paid this same informant in previous cases. That

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this guy his name was David Toles. The only ways

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they were able to start to really un open up

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Lee's case agame is because they were able to find

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out and pinpoint the fact that this jailhouse informant was

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on the payroll basically of the FBI, and that the

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city of Chicago knew about it and held it as

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and did not with and withheld that information from Lee's attorneys.

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So there was a Brady violation. For those of who

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know anything about Brady violations, you're not allowed to withhold

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information that could be exculpatory at least could be instrumental

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for the other side, and they had done so. They

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knew this guy had been paid by the FBI in

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the past for his jailhouse informant information and they didn't

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tell Lee's attorneys that became very uncritical in opening up

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Lee's opportunity to go to prison.

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Speaker 1: See now, now, come on, be honest with me, Dax.

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Would you trust anybody if they went through that, because

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all of a sudden, my trust factor factor is down

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and I wouldn't know where to jump from there, because

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it's like, Okay, I'm seeing something happen here, I'm feeling something.

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But man, trust is everything to me, and it's not

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always right though.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean the reality is that, like you know,

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right when Robert first started and so Robert, you know,

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he was able to get his hands on all the transcripts,

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you know, very back in the early two thousand, he

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would pour through them. He found out about this David

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Toles character, he found out about him a long time ago.

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But it was the fact of the matter to your point,

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even when he found out that David Toles had been

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basically put up to and was actually willing to go

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on record and say he had been you know, paid

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or if you know, by by the police for his

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for his testimony against Lee. Least Lee's attorney said that's

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that's valueless. No one will care. It's actually not significant

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because because David Toles was not a credible person, right,

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so your point is actually true, Like you're right, Like

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trust is everything and credibility is everything, and David Tolds

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had no credibility. Even so, even when he tried to

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recant his statement in the early two thousands, the courts like,

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whatever nobody cares, doesn't matter because you are not credible.

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Speaker 1: So now, but but but now, when you said that

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you know that that ian these these you know, investigative

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reports of getting know, freeing people from prison and stuff

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has taken its toll on you. Let me ask you

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this deep inside, because we all deal with post production

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blues as podcasters, how did you get beyond that? Are

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you a d fragger in the Are you going in

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there and asking yourself then your own questions and then

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questioning the answers because you've got you've got to replenish

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that soul before you jump into that next story.

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Speaker 2: You're gonna love this. You're gonna find this hilarious. And

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maybe I shouldn't say it's gonna say I actually, as

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soon as I get off the call with you, guys,

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say I got to go to the studio and record

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the two last the bonus episodes for this project, because

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so I haven't even got to that point, but I

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can anticipate it. I'm actually feeling I'm going to the

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studio for the last time in a couple of hours

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and I'm gonna have to now to your point and deal.

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I don't even listen to the podcast. I can't listen

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to it, you know, And I don't know how you feel.

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I don't both. I don't like my voice, but whatever,

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that's the different story altogether. But I struggle with it

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because I think with your naming is that it comes

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like there's stuff that comes up because you just get

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through it. You just go in the studio, you do

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the work, but you're right and the stuff that you

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got to sit with, and I know it's going to

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hit me. I know it's gonna hit me, but I'm

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not even gonna I can't go there yet. I can't

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even let myself go there because I'm not done. You know.

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The second story, the bonus episodes are actually if you will,

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you know, indulge me for a moment. Last week in Chicago,

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there was a hearing involving a guy named Anthony Garrett,

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who's been in prison as well for thirty some years

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for a crime that happened in nineteen ninety two, the

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killing of a young boy named Dontrell Davis, seven years old.

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He was killed in Kaberini, being projects Garrett had always been.

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He was convicted of the crime same detective as Lee Harris.

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He had the same detective and Garrett had always maintained

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that he had been tortured and his conviction had been coerced.

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So this detective, his name is Zuli, who was actually

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Lee Harris's detective as well, also goes to Guantanamo Bay

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in the early two thousands. Yes, and he is the

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main detective, or he's the main interrogator of you of

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a man named Mohammadu Slahi, who is the star of

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a film that came out a few years ago called

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The Mauritanian starring Jerdy Foster and Benedict Cumberbatch. Right, so, people,

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this is a wild story that we're talking about. In

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any event, this case is still being litigated right now

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in Chicago and slow. He actually testified last week on

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behalf of Garrett to show and to talk about the

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torture he experienced at the hands of the same detective.

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Point of the matter is that this is live we

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are still waiting for the determination of that hearing. And

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the last two bonus episodes are all about this. What's

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gonna happen to Anthony Garrett who's been in prison for

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thirty some years for a crime he said he didn't

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commit and actually was. You know, so this is this

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is I'm in it, man, I can just say I'm in.

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Speaker 1: It minute, you know, And I was gonna save this

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or maybe not even go to it. But because you

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have touched on it, you know, you can't have a

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true crime podcast until you have a corrept detective. And

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my god, you're the one that brought it up. So

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there you go. So again, you cannot have a true

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crime until you have a corrupt detective.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, man, listen. You know, in my last podcast, we

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had a guy named Scarcella, you know, Louis Scarcella. He

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was quite a character, quite a character, you know, unbelievable,

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and he cooperated and he was not just a coo.

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He wasn't He was an enthusiastic voice in the project.

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In this in this story, it's the complete opposite. Zuli

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Detective Zuli has his He's wanted no parts of the story.

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He's never wanted to go on record. He's been able

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to even avoid any kind of He's not even been

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able to be They've not even been able to sit

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down and do an interview with him. He's avoided all

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of that. And he's always said and maintained, he's always

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maintained that he did nothing wrong. And so you can't

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even actually unpack the extent to which he actually engaged

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in full on. And I'm not even going to go

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on record and saying that we have he has this alleged.

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At this point, I have to legally say it's all alleged.

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But there are a number of cases, a number of

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cases involving this guy, and all of them point to

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the same sort of behavior, meaning like he doesn't he's

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not the physical one. He's not the guy who goes

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in and beats people up. There was a guy named

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John Birds who would actually he was a physical abuser

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of people, you know, and interrogation processes. This wasn't the

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same thing with Zuli. Zuli was much more psychological. He

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was much more, at least in his estimation, sophisticated in

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the way he operated, he would leave the room. At

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least that's what the story is. He would leave the

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room and have other people come in and do the

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physical violence, and then he would come back in. You know.

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So this is the thing, and that's part of what

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happened in Guantonimo as well. The same story that Anthony

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Garrett is telling in nineteen ninety two in Chicago is

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the story that Slah he tells from two thousand and one,

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two thousand and three, two thousand and four in Guantanamo Bay,

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and it's about the same guy comes in. He's white, charismatic,

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he's compelling, and he leaves the room and people come

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in and do the dirty work, and he comes back

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in the room, right, and that's his love.

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Speaker 1: Yep, yep. You know. I gotta ask you a question,

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and this is between a listener and a podcaster, and

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that is is that how does your stomach not get upset?

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Because in listening to it and experiencing the podcast, I

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do get an upset stomach because you get me so

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worked up on this. But that's your passion, that that

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is your emotion, that is your drive to, like you said,

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dig into the story. But how do you stay with

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no twisted tummy.

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Speaker 2: M I think honestly, man, you know, I mean it's

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gonna sound a little bit hokey, but you know, you

387
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you have it as well like Ero. You know you

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you're fortunate enough to be you know, have some some

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gifts in the world. Mine one of mine is listening

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deeply and being able to help translate people's stories. So

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I think I sit in this space of gratitude and

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appreciation of a gift and a responsibility to use the gift.

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And I'm a vessel for that work. You know, it's

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not about me, It's happening through me. That's why I said,

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I'm a small part of the story. And I'm a

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very fortunate person to be able to help tell a

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story that opens people's eyes and helps gifts some folks

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some closure and the sense of their story is being heard.

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And to me, that's a real there's a there's a

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sense of satisfaction associated with that to be part of

401
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that work, because there's a lot army of us out

402
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here doing this kind of work. And I am again

403
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like just a foot soldier in that army, and I'm

404
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a proud person to be doing it. And I mean,

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that's what helps me.

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Speaker 1: Man, Well, you've got to come back to this show

407
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anytime in the future, Dax. You know that door is

408
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always going to be open for you.

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Speaker 2: I appreciate you, I really do, and I just thank you.

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I appreciate you for listening, for sharing with your audience

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and sharing me with your audience. And you know, for

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all those out there listening, I want to say, I know,

413
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it's the holiday season. It's been a long, long year.

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Maybe a story, but a wrongful conviction. Its not sounded

415
00:18:26,359 --> 00:18:29,039
like very appetizing, but I promise you there's some funny moments,

416
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there's some light moments. There's a lot of levity in

417
00:18:31,079 --> 00:18:34,160
this project. It's not just all about the wrongful conviction.

418
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It's about friendship too, and it's about what happens.

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Speaker 1: You know, you'd be brilliant today.

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Speaker 2: Okay, okay, you do the same. Happy Holidays,