Speaker 1: It's actually been a fun adventure collecting all the conversations
I have since twenty sixteen with those that have been
featured on NBC's The Voice. Now, the question is can
we put them all in one place and not let
them be forgotten in history? Yeah you can. It's called
arro dot net a R r Oe dot net. Look
for that voice. Enjoy the exploration. Dax, I love your name, man.
Why didn't you market that and put it up on
like a rock star tour or something like that, and
you know, make your way around the world with Madonna
or even Bieber.
Speaker 2: Right, you know what I mean. Well, listen, there's there's
Dax Shephard. He's you know, he's out there doing his thing.
You know, there's a whole story about these this. There's
a few Daxes out there, and I've encountered a bunch
of them. There's a new generation, but a bunch of
us I found at one point, I know, we got
to get into the story. But at one point someone
put together a Twitter group and added me to it.
This is years ago, and it was for all the
Daxes that and I do think that there were a
bunch of us that were probably born around the same time,
whose parents saw the same movie and named us Dax.
So that's what I that's what, you know, a little
bit of the story.
Speaker 1: Your podcast, Crying Wolfe. It really does get into an
emotional place because one of the things that you know,
we live in this age where it seems like that
everybody's got a podcast, but my god, yours is the
one that's sticking out right now, and it's like, what,
what do you think is the secret sauce that you
put into it?
Speaker 2: Well, first of all, thank you. You know, there's a
lot of incredible work out there, and you know, I'm
impressed in aught every day by the things people are doing,
the stories people are telling, and the way these folks
are expanding the medium. And you're right though, there is
a out there in the world. I think, honestly, man,
you got to get out and do some real reporting. Yes,
I think, I mean, I mean, this is no disparagement
on folks, but I think there's a there's a you know,
it's the podcast medium has enabled many of us to
set it up and just get it going and start talking.
You know, do we can do interviews, but to go
out and do some footwork and get out in the
world and get doing some deep research and talking to
people and putting together soundscapes and really trying to pull
We had to go through twenty years of prison interviews,
between prison conversations between Robert and and and and Lee.
I mean, this is this is a level of work
in detail that my production team at Chalk and Blade
did that. I'm just like in awe of myself. I
am a small part of this story and just grateful
to be part of it.
Speaker 1: Well, I love your honesty and transparency on that when
you call yourself something small, but yet you are the
main driving force behind it. But I mean, but a
lot of people don't have these beautiful teams such as yours.
How is it you're able to keep it together? Because
I mean, we live in twenty twenty five. There are
a lot of egos out here.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I mean, my goodness, I think for me,
I come to this work from print. You know, I've
toiled away in the you know, in that old analog
world for a long time, and so all I know
is deep storytelling and all I know and someone has
told me recently because this has been a year that
I've rediscovered my own voice in a lot of ways,
and this story is a part of it, which was
that you do it for the people who are out
there listening. You don't if you only do it thinking
that the if you measure, if you only measure is
if you get to the million people listening and x
number of followers, then you know, good luck with that.
But that's not going to be most people. But if
you're doing it because you believe that there's somebody in
the corner of the world that really is going to
be touched by something you are doing, and you believe
in that, then that's something different. And I'll say I'll
add this last piece. You know, I always I'm being
transparent like this. I I you know, someone like me doesn't.
I don't get paid a lot of money to a
project like this. You have to really care about it.
You have to care about it, and you can't do
it for that thing other than the fact that, like,
I have an opportunity to tell a really powerful and
important story and I'm gonna damn well do the best
thing I can do and tell it as truthfully as
I can.
Speaker 1: One of the things that you do inside this is
that you kind of really open up the eyes of
anybody who might be you know, in prison or on
the outside, going how can I get my guy my
woman outside of prison? Because I don't know what we're
doing right today, but a lot of people are coming out.
What is it that you saw that is opening a
lot of doors that we couldn't do back in the
seventies or eighties.
Speaker 2: I mean, I mean the short answer is like forensics,
you know, short answer is D. But the longer answer is,
I think momentum and movements. You know, once momentums, Once
a momentum becomes a movement, a movement becomes a force
of its own, and it starts to you know, capture
different people who may not have always been the most extreme,
like progressive life. This kind of a movement, I think
captures people who are even more who are more mainstream
in terms of their views regarding the criminal legal system,
because I think all of us want to make sure
we get it right. All of us want to make
sure we get it right, because there before the grace
of God goes us, you know, and these kinds of
stories I think tell us that over and over again,
Like this guy was walking down the street, this guy
happened to be doing this. It could happen. You think
it may not be you, but it could happen. So
I think it's the movement. It's the momentum that becomes
a movement. I think it's the technology and the forensics,
and I think it's the broader awareness that we all
have because of the storytelling that people have been done
doing for so long. Now, over twenty some years, people
have been telling stories, and I think it's helped us
a lot.
Speaker 1: Planted your listeners into the city of Chicago nineteen eighty nine,
and you know what, My wife is from Chicago and
she knows this story all too well. And it becomes
you know, the star witness is your star suspect, and
it's like, oh my god. You know if that doesn't
sound like Hollywood, that's not supposed to happen in real life.
Speaker 2: Oh it's you know. I think that's the thing that So,
you know what drew me to it because I had
just finished another podcast when I was was approached about
working on this. I just finished them one on the
Burden and we had done four year Deep Dive. I
was like, I'm done. I can't do any moore of
these wrongful convictions that just too gut wrenching. And then
I got this invitation and I saw that piece, the
crying wolf element of it, which is a guy Lee
Harris is not you know, he doesn't have to clean
his hands in the world. Let's be clear. He would
you know, he'd be happy to sell up. But he'd
be happy to sell up, sell some a you know,
an unaware and a tourist entering Chicago, a bag of
a regano and say and say it's something else. He'd
be happy to do some little little jive hustle to
get over. But he wasn't. He was a petty a
petty criminal, a petty thief. He was not a murderer.
He was not a killer, and that was never part
of his mo So I think, like, you know, it's
a it's a, it's a it's a. This story is
is really powerful because it was powerful to me. It
was because of the friendship between him and Robert. It
was powerful because the way things flipped it is actually
it's frightening. This guy goes from being star witness, meaning
being he's being put up in a hotel by the detectives.
He's being whined and dying for back of a better
way of describing it. He's being brought, he there having it.
He does twenty two statements for them, for the police
as a witness, and then one day he becomes the guy.
Speaker 1: Can you imagine No, no, no, we I you know
more than most of us, but we all fear that
moment where you know, wrong place at the wrong time,
and sorry, the rest of your life is now. I
don't know you're gonna get You're gonna get lost in
a system right now.
Speaker 2: I mean, he's he's a very expended he was an
expendable person, unfortunately, and that's what I think happens quite often.
But I'll stop there.
Speaker 1: Wow, wow, you know you talk about that friendship and
right away and maybe this is just the empathy or
the compassion coming out of my soul, and it's like, wow, now,
all of a sudden, that friendship is visible. Now. Now
I've never been to prison. I don't know what prison
is like, but when I hear that things are visible,
you know, I have to take a second and a
third breath.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, you know, I think it's important to
even recognize, like Robert Chatler was this young guy who
got himself into he became an addict, for the lack
of a better way of describing it. And he became
an addict, and his addiction became so ferocious that he was,
you know, stealing anything and everything from everybody in his life,
selling anything and everything. And he was a young man,
early twenties, and his life had just taken a really,
really hard wrong turn, and he ends up in prison
and he has he actually has a couple of sellis
before he meets Lee that are kind of frightening guys.
But when he meets Lee and he enters the cell
with Lee, Lee shows him, shows him a kindness that
no one has shown him in a long time, you know,
and it's simple kindness, like you can use my radio
his his I don't. Lee didn't smoke himself, but he
always kept a pack of cigarettes because that was currency
he gives. Because he would give cigarettes to Robert because
he knew Robert needed him. They were cooked together, you know,
they would they would do all sorts of things. And
in many ways, Lee is twenty years older than this guy.
I mean, it's they're not They wouldn't have been friends
on the street. It's a black guy from the projects,
a white guy from the suburbs and they find in
a bond and ultimately, you know, the funny thing is
Lee actually kicks him out. Lee actually asks to have
him kicked out of the cell because he smokes too much.
But even when even when Robert was leaving, even when
Robert was walking out of the prison, he stopped and
told Lee, I'm gonna look into your case. And he
kept and he kept his damn word, please.
Speaker 1: Do not move. There's more with Dax Stevelan Ross coming
up next the name of his podcast, Crying Wolf. We
are back with podcaster Dax s Devlin Ross. Maybe this
is just my judgmental self, because we're all judgers, and
that is when when they were moving, Robert Sell closer,
I'm gonna tell you, I mean, in my heart, I'm
going what are they up to? What are they doing?
Are they going to try to do something? Are they
going to try to get information? What's going on? You know,
I mean, all of a sudden, you know, you're a
part of an episode of Perry Mason.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, it's funny because you know, Lee was already
in largely because of a quote unquote jail house snitch,
and that's a big part of the story is that
there was a guy he actually never met but who
said that he met, and he met Lee while they
were he was in jail before he was actually convicted,
and Lee confessed to him. So this had already happened
to Lee. Somebody had already like tried to use the
jail house snitch against him and been successful. And it
was only because Lee's lawyers went through and found the
FBI had paid this same informant in previous cases. That
this guy his name was David Toles. The only ways
they were able to start to really un open up
Lee's case agame is because they were able to find
out and pinpoint the fact that this jailhouse informant was
on the payroll basically of the FBI, and that the
city of Chicago knew about it and held it as
and did not with and withheld that information from Lee's attorneys.
So there was a Brady violation. For those of who
know anything about Brady violations, you're not allowed to withhold
information that could be exculpatory at least could be instrumental
for the other side, and they had done so. They
knew this guy had been paid by the FBI in
the past for his jailhouse informant information and they didn't
tell Lee's attorneys that became very uncritical in opening up
Lee's opportunity to go to prison.
Speaker 1: See now, now, come on, be honest with me, Dax.
Would you trust anybody if they went through that, because
all of a sudden, my trust factor factor is down
and I wouldn't know where to jump from there, because
it's like, Okay, I'm seeing something happen here, I'm feeling something.
But man, trust is everything to me, and it's not
always right though.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean the reality is that, like you know,
right when Robert first started and so Robert, you know,
he was able to get his hands on all the transcripts,
you know, very back in the early two thousand, he
would pour through them. He found out about this David
Toles character, he found out about him a long time ago.
But it was the fact of the matter to your point,
even when he found out that David Toles had been
basically put up to and was actually willing to go
on record and say he had been you know, paid
or if you know, by by the police for his
for his testimony against Lee. Least Lee's attorney said that's
that's valueless. No one will care. It's actually not significant
because because David Toles was not a credible person, right,
so your point is actually true, Like you're right, Like
trust is everything and credibility is everything, and David Tolds
had no credibility. Even so, even when he tried to
recant his statement in the early two thousands, the courts like,
whatever nobody cares, doesn't matter because you are not credible.
Speaker 1: So now, but but but now, when you said that
you know that that ian these these you know, investigative
reports of getting know, freeing people from prison and stuff
has taken its toll on you. Let me ask you
this deep inside, because we all deal with post production
blues as podcasters, how did you get beyond that? Are
you a d fragger in the Are you going in
there and asking yourself then your own questions and then
questioning the answers because you've got you've got to replenish
that soul before you jump into that next story.
Speaker 2: You're gonna love this. You're gonna find this hilarious. And
maybe I shouldn't say it's gonna say I actually, as
soon as I get off the call with you, guys,
say I got to go to the studio and record
the two last the bonus episodes for this project, because
so I haven't even got to that point, but I
can anticipate it. I'm actually feeling I'm going to the
studio for the last time in a couple of hours
and I'm gonna have to now to your point and deal.
I don't even listen to the podcast. I can't listen
to it, you know, And I don't know how you feel.
I don't both. I don't like my voice, but whatever,
that's the different story altogether. But I struggle with it
because I think with your naming is that it comes
like there's stuff that comes up because you just get
through it. You just go in the studio, you do
the work, but you're right and the stuff that you
got to sit with, and I know it's going to
hit me. I know it's gonna hit me, but I'm
not even gonna I can't go there yet. I can't
even let myself go there because I'm not done. You know.
The second story, the bonus episodes are actually if you will,
you know, indulge me for a moment. Last week in Chicago,
there was a hearing involving a guy named Anthony Garrett,
who's been in prison as well for thirty some years
for a crime that happened in nineteen ninety two, the
killing of a young boy named Dontrell Davis, seven years old.
He was killed in Kaberini, being projects Garrett had always been.
He was convicted of the crime same detective as Lee Harris.
He had the same detective and Garrett had always maintained
that he had been tortured and his conviction had been coerced.
So this detective, his name is Zuli, who was actually
Lee Harris's detective as well, also goes to Guantanamo Bay
in the early two thousands. Yes, and he is the
main detective, or he's the main interrogator of you of
a man named Mohammadu Slahi, who is the star of
a film that came out a few years ago called
The Mauritanian starring Jerdy Foster and Benedict Cumberbatch. Right, so, people,
this is a wild story that we're talking about. In
any event, this case is still being litigated right now
in Chicago and slow. He actually testified last week on
behalf of Garrett to show and to talk about the
torture he experienced at the hands of the same detective.
Point of the matter is that this is live we
are still waiting for the determination of that hearing. And
the last two bonus episodes are all about this. What's
gonna happen to Anthony Garrett who's been in prison for
thirty some years for a crime he said he didn't
commit and actually was. You know, so this is this
is I'm in it, man, I can just say I'm in.
Speaker 1: It minute, you know, And I was gonna save this
or maybe not even go to it. But because you
have touched on it, you know, you can't have a
true crime podcast until you have a corrept detective. And
my god, you're the one that brought it up. So
there you go. So again, you cannot have a true
crime until you have a corrupt detective.
Speaker 2: Yeah, man, listen. You know, in my last podcast, we
had a guy named Scarcella, you know, Louis Scarcella. He
was quite a character, quite a character, you know, unbelievable,
and he cooperated and he was not just a coo.
He wasn't He was an enthusiastic voice in the project.
In this in this story, it's the complete opposite. Zuli
Detective Zuli has his He's wanted no parts of the story.
He's never wanted to go on record. He's been able
to even avoid any kind of He's not even been
able to be They've not even been able to sit
down and do an interview with him. He's avoided all
of that. And he's always said and maintained, he's always
maintained that he did nothing wrong. And so you can't
even actually unpack the extent to which he actually engaged
in full on. And I'm not even going to go
on record and saying that we have he has this alleged.
At this point, I have to legally say it's all alleged.
But there are a number of cases, a number of
cases involving this guy, and all of them point to
the same sort of behavior, meaning like he doesn't he's
not the physical one. He's not the guy who goes
in and beats people up. There was a guy named
John Birds who would actually he was a physical abuser
of people, you know, and interrogation processes. This wasn't the
same thing with Zuli. Zuli was much more psychological. He
was much more, at least in his estimation, sophisticated in
the way he operated, he would leave the room. At
least that's what the story is. He would leave the
room and have other people come in and do the
physical violence, and then he would come back in. You know.
So this is the thing, and that's part of what
happened in Guantonimo as well. The same story that Anthony
Garrett is telling in nineteen ninety two in Chicago is
the story that Slah he tells from two thousand and one,
two thousand and three, two thousand and four in Guantanamo Bay,
and it's about the same guy comes in. He's white, charismatic,
he's compelling, and he leaves the room and people come
in and do the dirty work, and he comes back
in the room, right, and that's his love.
Speaker 1: Yep, yep. You know. I gotta ask you a question,
and this is between a listener and a podcaster, and
that is is that how does your stomach not get upset?
Because in listening to it and experiencing the podcast, I
do get an upset stomach because you get me so
worked up on this. But that's your passion, that that
is your emotion, that is your drive to, like you said,
dig into the story. But how do you stay with
no twisted tummy.
Speaker 2: M I think honestly, man, you know, I mean it's
gonna sound a little bit hokey, but you know, you
you have it as well like Ero. You know you
you're fortunate enough to be you know, have some some
gifts in the world. Mine one of mine is listening
deeply and being able to help translate people's stories. So
I think I sit in this space of gratitude and
appreciation of a gift and a responsibility to use the gift.
And I'm a vessel for that work. You know, it's
not about me, It's happening through me. That's why I said,
I'm a small part of the story. And I'm a
very fortunate person to be able to help tell a
story that opens people's eyes and helps gifts some folks
some closure and the sense of their story is being heard.
And to me, that's a real there's a there's a
sense of satisfaction associated with that to be part of
that work, because there's a lot army of us out
here doing this kind of work. And I am again
like just a foot soldier in that army, and I'm
a proud person to be doing it. And I mean,
that's what helps me.
Speaker 1: Man, Well, you've got to come back to this show
anytime in the future, Dax. You know that door is
always going to be open for you.
Speaker 2: I appreciate you, I really do, and I just thank you.
I appreciate you for listening, for sharing with your audience
and sharing me with your audience. And you know, for
all those out there listening, I want to say, I know,
it's the holiday season. It's been a long, long year.
Maybe a story, but a wrongful conviction. Its not sounded
like very appetizing, but I promise you there's some funny moments,
there's some light moments. There's a lot of levity in
this project. It's not just all about the wrongful conviction.
It's about friendship too, and it's about what happens.
Speaker 1: You know, you'd be brilliant today.
Speaker 2: Okay, okay, you do the same. Happy Holidays,