Speaker 1: Hello everybody, and welcome back to the show that You
Can't Be Serious Podcast. We are here today with a
very special episode. It is Indiana Jones and the Ten
Commandments of a proper sequel.
Speaker 2: We have with us today our good buddy from the
film by podcast, Jeff Johnson. Jeff, how you doing, man.
Speaker 3: Hiy, I'm doing great, guys. Thank you for having me
over to have this conversation.
Speaker 2: Actually, I should have referred to you correctly. I'm sorry
I didn't interduce you properly. This is Cincinnati, Jeff Johnson.
To my right here is Arkansas d Graves.
Speaker 1: Have you heard of me?
Speaker 2: Not Arkansas, Dave Rubah, Arkansas Di Graves. And then I,
of course am Oklahoma Jason Colden.
Speaker 1: I don't think anything sounds as good as Indiana.
Speaker 3: No, it doesn't. You can't beat you can't beat that one.
Speaker 1: Although Cincinnati is pretty cool. Cincinnati is be pretty cool.
Speaker 3: Came down Cincinnati, Johnson, I could go with that.
Speaker 1: Well, guys, we are here today because there has been
a recent release of yet another Indiana Jones sequel called
Indiana Jones and the Dial of Destiny, and up until
two days ago, for me, the Indiana Jones series was
just a trilogy, that is it. I had seen approximately
nine and a half minutes of the Kingdom of the
Crystal Skull, and I turned it off about ten years
ago or so and have not ventured to see it again.
But I was forced to buy my wife, and I endured.
I endured every bit of it. I paused it to
see how long it took me before I would have
normal turned it off. Disney doesn't give you a time stamp,
but I can tell you it was before they went
into the warehouse.
Speaker 2: That's not very long into the movie.
Speaker 3: I mean that's.
Speaker 1: That's yeah, that is better after that brief So we incepted,
if you will, if you'll let me verbis that word.
We incepted this particular episode because Jeff just saw the
most recent movie, Dial of Destiny and engaged mister Colvin
over here in a It's Oklahoma.
Speaker 2: I like Oklahoma.
Speaker 1: You call him Doctor Paulmdall engaged him in a conversation
about all of the various shortcomings of the newest movie.
And it was upon that that the realization happened that
we needed to have a list of what you do,
do not do in order to have a good Indiana
Jones sequel.
Speaker 2: That's right. Jeff and I were talking. We were like, Okay,
it doesn't have this, it doesn't have this. It needed this,
it needed that. What the heck are they thinking? We
can see it plain as day. Why can't they figure
this out? It has since been thirty four years since
we've had a good Indiana Jones movie, That's absolutely true.
We started talking about the shortcomings of the Disney era
Indiana Jones films, and then we start talking about the
original trilogy and what it got right, we start talking
about like, well, what would it take to make a
proper sequel to Indiana Jones. So we're going to start
this off. This is actually going to be the Ten
Commandments of an Indiana Jones movie. You either have to
have or can't have these ten items that we have here, right, that's.
Speaker 1: All short at just one point is guilty of breaking
all of them there, It is right there. As long
as we're telling the ten Commandments here, might as well
keep it biblical.
Speaker 2: He clearly has been.
Speaker 3: A Sunday school. Didn't you guys go to Sunday School?
Speaker 1: So the Ten Commandments, which we are about to start.
Before we get going, it's important to Note that both
Jason and Jeff, that is, Cincinnati and Oklahoma, have seen
the most recent Indiana Jones movie. I have not. I
do not know after hearing their impressions whether I'm inclined
to do so. We will do our best to keep
this spoiler free, but something may slipped out of passion.
Speaker 2: Cincinnati, Jeff Johnson, are you ready?
Speaker 3: I am ready? Let's do this.
Speaker 2: Arkansas, D. Graves are you ready?
Speaker 1: Fortune and Glory, Kid, Fortune and Glory.
Speaker 2: We know what a careful fellow you guys are, so
let's dive in, starting with commandment number one one, thou
shalt always have the proper Indiana Jones uniform that includes
a fedora, a leather jacket, a bull whip, and a gun.
Speaker 3: Pretty simple. One more item though, okay with you? This
is an item that he's going to have more so
than the leather jacket. Cases talk about his shoulder bag,
his purse, Yeah, yeah, his satchel. It's you know, actually
it's actually a Mark seven British gas mask bag. That's
not era appropriate because it's a mid forties, early to
mid forties and obviously indi'es galivanting around in nineteen thirty
four thirty five, thirty six. But yeah, he's got to
have the shoulder bag to put all his true his
idols in stones and what hags of sand and all that. Yeah,
his bags of sand, its crosses of Coronado.
Speaker 1: So just I saw this today. Apparently when mel Brooks
went to George Lucas to say, Hey, I want to
do a parody of the Star Wars trilogy, and you know,
my I'm going to have a guy who's kind of
a Han Solo character. George Lucas said, I will let
you do the parody without complaint, but you cannot dress
him like Han Solo. You can't give him that standard
on Solo garb. And so what he did instead was
to dress him like Indiana Jones. Nice, no fedora, but
he did have the leather jacket, the padre, the pants,
but fedora, leather jacket, bull whipping gun. I think we're
all of the features that Fielberg and Lucas discussed whenever
they were building sand castles and Hawaii coming up with
the idea for this movie in the first place.
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely necessary. Gotta have all those now. Then quick question, Jeff, Yes,
does Indiana Jones carry a gun in the Dial of Destiny.
The fact that you have to think about it, yeah,
says it all right.
Speaker 3: I honestly don't recall him carrying one.
Speaker 2: I don't think he does. I don't think he's spoilers.
He steals a gun and he and he shoots a guy,
but he used it that guy's own gun against him.
I don't think he carried a gun the entire movie.
Speaker 3: No, I don't. I don't recall him ever having one
in the movie, now that you think about.
Speaker 2: It, Okay, Now, then does he wearries fedora?
Speaker 3: He does? He does indeed have the fedora.
Speaker 2: Does he wear his leather jacket?
Speaker 3: He does have the leather jacket.
Speaker 2: Okay. Does he use the bullwhep?
Speaker 3: He And this is no spoiler because you've seen it
in the trailer. He's he's menacing with the bullwhip. He
you know in the in the Cairo market scene, but
uh a Morocco scene. But uh, I think that's all
he does with it. If if cracks it a couple
of times, cracks it a few times, you know, get back. Yeah,
I'm our god, I'm our godfather. Yeah. I think that's
the only time you even see him use the whip.
Speaker 2: I agree, with you. So he really didn't use his gun,
and he really didn't use his bullwhip. So I think
the caveat we should add is that he has to
use these items.
Speaker 3: Right, well, yeah, I mean I think every every film,
the first four films, he makes significant use of his accessories,
you know, of his.
Speaker 1: Tour, a comedical effect when he tries to use it
but can't.
Speaker 2: That's right, that would be I would be good.
Speaker 1: Within the bridge on the rope Bridge at Temple of Doom.
Speaker 2: That's right. Okay, quick question. I don't want to detail
the whole podcast here, but is Harrison Ford mandatory to
have an Indiana Jones movie?
Speaker 3: This is a tough question because here's where I'm at
with it. We have fallen in love when you talk
about iconic heroes, and on the silver screen, we're talking Superman,
James Bond, Sherlock Holmes, Batman. We're in love with these characters.
But we've had forty to fifty years to see different
iterations of them. Right. There has always been you know,
when someone signs up to play a superhero role, you know, okay,
well we're gonna have them for a good five ten
years maybe hopefully, and then someone's they're going to pass
the torch. Same thing with James Bond, the thing with Indy.
We've only had Harrison Ford, you know, this entire time.
So where the generations have had an opportunity to move
on with new actors for their beloved characters, the original
generation for Indiana Jones and the current generation for India
Jones and everyone in between, we haven't had that. Ford
is Indiana Jones. So it's a tricky thing to answer,
but in my heart of hearts, I have to say,
he showed us the way, but the character should not
die with him. Give it five years, give it ten years,
give it, give us a break, you know, let us
miss the character and process the end of Harrison Ford's run.
That's what I would say.
Speaker 1: You guys watched the Indiana Jones chronicles, the Young Indiana
Jones chronicles.
Speaker 2: I've seen, yep, some of them.
Speaker 1: Yes, So no Harrison Ford. There, you had Sean Patrick
Flannery as Indiana Jones, as Young Indiana Jones and those
and so I don't know, I haven't seen those movies.
I don't know if that's worthy, but I think as
far as Harrison Ford is concerned, it has to be
Harrison Ford. He's like, nobody else can be Indiana Jones
as long as I'm alive, and so as far as
he's concerned, that's the way it is.
Speaker 3: Now.
Speaker 2: If you look at that's not his call to make.
Speaker 1: Well, I was gonna say, if you look at James Bond,
which this was was the inspiration kind of behind this
whole character. Obviously you've up multiple actor changes throughout its history.
Can you do it? Yeah, I think you could do
it if you've got the right guy. But I think
it needs to be an entirely new thing. It's just,
you know, we're starting back over it. It has to
be a reboot, and that's that's where I think that goes.
Speaker 2: I think what you touched on right there, the model
franchise for Indiana Jones movies is the James Bond franchise.
What if Sean Connery had held onto that for forty.
Speaker 3: Years, it wouldn't be believable.
Speaker 2: It wouldn't be believable. We would have missed out on
a ton of movies and it would have held that
character back. So thank you, Harrison Ford. You have given
us one of the most iconic characters of all time.
Try to pass the torch.
Speaker 3: Let's go, thank you for your service. Let's let's see
the next generation.
Speaker 1: I'm not ready to kick him off the boat yet.
Speaker 2: But wait till you see him in action.
Speaker 3: Well, yeah, I would say action is a strong word there, Jason.
You know, wait till you see him in the new film.
That's what I would. I think that's a better way
to say.
Speaker 2: In Crystal Skull, he was what sixty five or so, yep,
and still capable of doing a lot of his stunts
in action and throwing punches. In this one he looked old.
Speaker 3: You know, say what you yeah, say what you about
Crystal Skull. But at least in that film, we had
Indiana Jones running around, Indiana jonesing. He was. He was
cracking the whip, he was punching guys out, he was running,
he was, he was Indiana Jones. Still the second commandment too,
thou shalt not over complicate thy my guffin. So look,
here's the deal. The key to all these films, these
these these amazing movies, is what's motivating him. What is
he going after? It should have historical significance, It should
border on the supernatural, and it above and beyond. It
should be. It should be mysterious, right, it should provoke wonder.
Speaker 2: I guess what we've had so far as the Ark
of the Covenant really in Raiders, you also have kind
of the miss sterious the head piece to the staff
of Raw you know, you have that, you do Egyptian stuff,
that's a lot of fun. You have the shunkarstones from
Temple of Doom. They have mysterious properties.
Speaker 3: Mm hmm.
Speaker 2: You have the Holy Grail, the Cup of Christ from
the third one, and then.
Speaker 3: We move into.
Speaker 2: Crystal skulls and UFOs and that type of thing.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I understand that Lucas you know, he was kind
of compelled to say, hey, this is Indian the fifties
and what was what was the fifties all about? The
sci fi rage had started, right, UFOs and men from
Mars and that, you know, whereas the original trilogy in
the thirties it was all about those original serials, you know,
and movies like Treasures Sarah Madre with Humpri Bogart. Now
we're in the fifties, so I understand why he went
where he went, but it doesn't mean that it worked.
Speaker 2: What do you think about the Numcguffin?
Speaker 3: I think it was a great idea lousy execution.
Speaker 2: Okay, you know you and I were talking. They name
it about three different things.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I was scratching my head because I was like, wait,
I thought we were going after the Dial of Destiny.
Oh we're not. We're going after Jason. I actually can't
even remember all the names that they use, but it's
like it's record on Carrosa or something like that. Yeah,
the anti Thria or yeah, I don't know, it's it's
I do recall them talking about like like I didn't
at least three different names. Yeah, so I was like, wait,
are we going after three different things? Or oh, it's
the same thing. It's just but you know, it's like
if you say Grail, we know that it's the Holy
Grail or the Cup of Christ. You can say that
because it's it makes sense, you know, the Arc or
the Ark of the Covenant. But something weird like this,
you don't want to give it multiple names. I think
for me that was as a viewer, that was confusing
and kind of pointless.
Speaker 2: Okay, And just to double down on what you said,
the Second Commandment, Indiana Jones at his heart is a
treasure hunter slash grave robber slash archaeologist.
Speaker 3: Right, yeah, I could. I could do abug grave robber.
You know you sound like chatter lull there at Pancott,
But it was his misunderstanding equities.
Speaker 2: There it is, yes, there, it is there. It is
all right.
Speaker 3: We are two.
Speaker 1: Commandment number three three thou shalt tell stories of action adventure,
never science fiction, which according to you guys, also includes
time travel. And I have to agree that can't be
your central issue. And this goes back to our kind
of key point about Commandment number two. It needs to
have historical significance. This needs to be a real historical thing.
And from what I gathered, the Dial of Destiny is
not an actual, real historical thing. It's just something they
kind of made up. And there it's so many lost
treasures out there that you have the opportunity to do
something with. Why make something up like this?
Speaker 3: I know it's based off of an actual thing that
was found, which people now nowadays are saying this is
this is kind of like the workings of like the
very first computer, and that people in each and Greece
shouldn't have had the precision gears that it had. That's
about as far as it goes in reality and then
the rest, you know, the whole time travel angle has
been added to it.
Speaker 1: I mean, the whole basis of the original idea Raiders
have lost arc Grail. All of it is that India
is a doubter. He is a doubter in the supernatural.
His character arc for each of those movies is to
move from doubter to believer. That's the whole point. That's
what that's what we are here to see. And so
if your mcguffin is a scientific instrument, it doesn't have
any magical unexplainable by science powers, Well, what's the big
deal in him coming to believe in this thing? There's
not one. It doesn't make any sense. It's kind of
it's the same way I feel about Kingdom of the
Crystal Skull. They've taken something and given it like historical significance,
but it's based completely in science and not at all
in the belief beyond our current realm.
Speaker 2: Now now you can actually see it on his face
when he goes to the map room in Raiders and
he's got the headpiece of Steph of raw at the
right time of day with the sunlight coming through, and
you get that swell of music from John Williams, and
it blows up that spot where the Well of Souls
is and you see the look on Harrison Port's face
or Indian A Jones's face, and all of a sudden,
he's like, oh my gosh, this is really happening. Like
God is speaking through this crystal.
Speaker 1: Of the chorus of oz behind.
Speaker 2: It's amazing.
Speaker 3: Right, he becomes a true believer.
Speaker 2: Hey, you know, before we go any further, is it
fair for us to compare any movie to Raiders?
Speaker 1: I I still maintain that the third movie, that Last Crusade,
is arguably better than Raiders. I love Raiders. I mean
I hold it in the highest regard, but I think
that Last Crusade is equally as good, if not in
some respects better. I know some people think Temple of
Doom is better, but the formula that they followed in
each of those movies is beautiful, and I think they
do it. I think they top themselves by bringing Henry
Jones Sr. Into the mix, who just happens to be
a former James Bond guy. I mean, it's just it's too.
Speaker 2: Perfect, So desays yes, Jeff, what do you think.
Speaker 3: I say Raiders is a perfect film. I could imagine
changing a single frame of that. So is it fair? No?
Do we have to do it? Yeah? The fourth Commandment four,
thou shalt not take thy heroes name in vain. His
name is Indiana Jones, doctor Jones to his colleagues, Indy
to his friends, it's not Henry. And and Tod's point
talking about Last Crusade, I don't recall a single moment
where his father calls him Henry. He calls him Junior
through the whole movie, which is acceptable if you're Sean
Connery's character, even Henry Jones Senr. The one time he
references his name, he says, Indiana, let it go.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's exactly right.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's not Henry. It bothered me in Crystal Skull
when when Oxley kept calling him that it's not Henry
and it's definitely not jonesy. I cannot stand that. Jason,
we were talking about Crystal Skull earlier, about the Mac character.
My take was cut him out of the movie completely.
He's a pointless character. He's not likable. He's not unlikable
enough to register, you know, like ah, that that's an
awful guy. He's a pointless character. He bothers me. Ray
Winstone is a great actor, but every time he says
Jonesy in that movie, I WinCE. And you better believe
I was wincing hard when someone when Helena Shaw was
using it in the New One.
Speaker 2: So yeah, absolutely, don't ever ever call him.
Speaker 1: Henry, call him doctor Jones, doll.
Speaker 2: It's really not that hard. Don't call him Henry. It's Indiana.
He likes Indiana. Commandment number five five thou shalt always
use the acquisition of knowledge as the final superpower of
Indiana Jones. Now, then this is a little bit complex,
so I want to just state my case on this one.
Speaker 1: Okay.
Speaker 2: So Indy and Belloc are basically identical in Raiders of
the Lost Ark. They're both smart.
Speaker 3: We reflection, that's it.
Speaker 2: It would only take us a nudge to push him
into the But basically, they're smart, they're capable, they're respected,
they know what they're doing, they know what they're going after,
they know how to do it. What's the difference, Andy
tells Marion, shut your eyes, Marian, don't look at it.
He has become a believer, and therefore that acquisition, that
belief is what gives him the edge over his enemies.
It also happens when he is choosing the cup of
a Carpenter in the Last Crusade. Now, then Donovan completely
arbitrarily just picks one and does the completely stupid thing.
And just what do you think, Elsa, which one is? Okay?
Speaker 3: This one?
Speaker 2: Yeah sounds good, let's drink.
Speaker 1: He chose. He chose.
Speaker 2: But he uses his brains to choose the cup of
a Carpenter. Obviously it's not gonna be jewel and crustard.
It's just gonna be a wooden cup. So using his
brains as his final superpower is a must for the
Indiana Jones character.
Speaker 3: I agree.
Speaker 1: So you didn't like it when they just decided to
run away at the end of Kingdom of the Crystal Skull,
like that was the solution. All these aliens are come
to life run away.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's one thing I want to bring up spoiler free.
There is a puzzle that is not solved by Indiana
Jones in the Dial of Destiny that I wanted to
stand up and throw my coke at the screen.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I know exactly what you're talking about. Thank goodness.
This in the new one, Thank goodness, the sidekick doesn't
have to solve the puzzles, because are you know, the
the new the new hero was there to take care
of that for us.
Speaker 2: And you know, sad, very sad betrayal, betrayal, well, especially.
Speaker 3: When Indy's just sitting there like, uh, tell tell me more,
you know, I'm at your feet A wise one. Yeah,
man Command number six six thou shalt not bear false
witness with CGI. Okay, so you guys have heard me
complain about CGI before. Jason I recently did a recording
of an episode where we did the worst sequels of
the eighties. And not to give away anything, but caddy
Shack two did come up, and Jason talked about his
reaction to the new round hog gopher thing in Caddyshack
two and is absolute disdain for it. And I will
say right now, Spike in the Football, bad practical effect
gopher from Caddyshack two is still much better than CGI.
Speaker 1: Round hogs from the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull.
Speaker 3: Wow.
Speaker 2: Spike in the Football, Wow, that's big time right there.
Speaker 3: I don't I don't know that I can disagree with him.
The gophers in Crystal Skull are so card too.
Speaker 2: It's ludicrous.
Speaker 3: It's one thing that they look cartoony, but the fact
that they act like Disney animated characters, you know, with
their whole curious, quizzical nature and silliness. I couldn't stand it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and again, absolutely unnecessary. Number one, I get what
you're trying to do with the groundhog hole at the
beginning in the shape of the mountain, but number one,
I thought it was offensive. I just was just like, really,
unless you are coming out and saying, hey, guys, for
our fourth Indiana Jones, we are going to make fun
of ourselves. Unless you come out and say that like
they did with like lethal weapon for or whatever, then
doing stuff like that is just like spitting in the
face of your fans.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I could drive thirty minutes down the road to
the Oklahoma City Zoo, I get you some footage of gophers,
real groundhogs, real groundhogs, and it would look totally fine.
Speaker 3: Yeah. I mean again, you know, we've always started these
movies with a transition from the paramount logo to an
actual mountain, and I thought that was when I first
saw it. I was like, Oh, that's that's that's cool,
that's brilliant, right, you could have just had an actual
roundhaul come out of that thing at that point, but
you didn't. You had a cartoon pop out and say hello, sough.
You almost wonder do we start off with such a
ludicrous CGI effect just so the rest of what you
saw you're like, okay, well it was at least it
wasn't the gopher. You know, it's not that bad. I
don't know. Maybe they are like setting trying to set.
Speaker 1: A gopher to to burst out and go to bit.
Speaker 2: Oh my god.
Speaker 1: By the way, go check out our podcast with Dayton
Johnson on the Docking Base seventy seven podcast where we
talk about who framed Roger Rabbit.
Speaker 2: So I was talking to Def Dave about this before
we started. It's not just the overuse of CGI, it's
the lack of practical effects. Oh thing about raiders that
made it so great and Timple and last crusade Erison
Ford is dirty, he's gritty, he's scraped up, he's bruised,
he's broken. He gets thrown out of a windshield, he
falls over the front of a truck, he goes underneath
the truck. You see a guy being drug by a truck.
I remember that was on That's incredible. I mean it
was a big deal in these hard, practical stunts. When
Indy jumps from a tuck tuck to another tuck tuck
in dial A Destiny, you see it in the trailer,
Indy can barely get out of bed. Are you telling
me that he makes that acrobatic leap?
Speaker 3: And let's talk about the CGI there too, because and
this is you you see this in the trailer. It's
not so much that he jumps from one. It's it
almost looks like someone's throwing a rag doll from one
to the other. It's like he kind of like does
like a lateral sway. Yeah, yeah, it's uh. I didn't
buy for one second. And the CGI in the new
one is more egregious than Crystal Skull in my opinion,
because we get how many pointless chasing that are just
a CGI blurry mess that that going far too long
and are boring, boring should never be used in an
Indiana Jones film.
Speaker 2: That's right, that's right. In fact, Dave just text me
and said it has to be fun. So like one
of his commandments is that it's gotta be fun. Before
I'm accused of talking out of both sides of my mouth,
I want to I want to pose this to you guys.
So you guys watch The Mandalorian. Oh yeah, okay, the
last episode of season two, I believe, I can't remember exactly,
A beloved character shows up in The Mandalorian and they
deage him with computer graphics. And I was doing backflips
because I thought it was freaking awesome.
Speaker 1: You didn't like it, did not?
Speaker 2: Okay?
Speaker 3: Wow? I love it?
Speaker 2: Cgi So do we think that this worked? The d
aging of Harrison Ford? Did this work in Dialodestiny?
Speaker 3: So here's where I'm at with it. It's it's a
magic trick. Okay, you do a slighter hand, I don't
catch it, and I'm mystified, right, But if you slow
it down and you give me a chance to really
look hard, really look close, then I can start to
find some flaws. I love the opening sequence, Jason, we
talked about. I love the opening sequence of Dialodestiny. I
thought it was a fantastic throwback to the last Crusade
era for Indiana Jones. But it maybe went on a
little too long. And the longer it went, the more
you could start to see, like, well, wait, the eyes
are kind of weird, you know, like that what they
call the dead eye when anytime they d age someone,
there's always that that thing where they can't just capture
the eyes right, right, And that's a minor thing. But
the real problem for me was just hearing Harrison Ford's craggy, grumpy,
eighty year old voice coming out coming out of a
forty year old Harrison Ford. And I didn't understand why
they didn't digitally clean that up, you know, much of
the way they did with Val Kilmer in Maverick.
Speaker 2: You and I talked about that the other night. Yeah,
and it's the voice does not match, the face doesn't
match what we're seeing, and you got to gravelly old Harrison,
but you pointed it out. They did that and Top
done average where they cleaned up Valcimra's voice and they
computer generated it based on all of his other movies
and stuff like that.
Speaker 3: And I was like, yeah, so how do you there
is a just a treasure trove of material for Harrison Ford.
I mean you think about everything that that they could
have got they could have pulled from. Truthfully, he wouldn't
even have to utter the dialogue. They could have just
made a sound board based off what he said before.
Similar what they did with Valcolmer, you know, but the
fact that they didn't, I felt that that was lazy honestly,
not that it's CGI, but it's you know, it's part
of that computer generated effect.
Speaker 1: So yeah, I think your magic trick analogy captures it perfectly.
If if I can tell, like if I can see
what the what the sleight of hand is, then you
haven't done a good job with it. And with a
movie of this magnitude, with this much funding, you should
fool me.
Speaker 3: Yes, And if.
Speaker 1: Your groundhogs look like cartoons and your de aging looks
like a computer filter on an Instagram, you didn't do
it right. And it's so easy to fix because half
of Indiana's face is always in the shadow, Like I mean,
just darken it, darken the place where he is, put
those shadows around. That's I mean. I said the same
thing with the beloved character and the Mandalorian. If he'd
kept his hood on have been great. You never would
have had worried about. But it's like they want to
show off. And then when they show off, it's like
it's like your five year old showing off their artwork.
You're like, didn't I do great? Doesn't looking exactly like
a bear.
Speaker 3: Oh sure, I quote Marcus Brody, they're meddling with powers.
They cannot understand.
Speaker 2: Commendment number seven seven thou shalt not believe in thy
perfect hero. All right, So on this one, I want
to make sure that we understand Indiana Jones. He makes mistakes.
He's not perfect, he's not a superhero. He gets hurt,
he gets scraped and scratched and bruised. The scene in
Raiders where after he's been drugged by the truck, he's
been punched by every German known de man, and then
Marian's trying to nurse him a little bit and he
can barely get his shirt off. That's great. We want
our heroes to be just like us. He gets shot
and Raiders are lost dark, It skims, it goes in
and out of his shoulder. You can just see the
pain on his face. This is killing me. That guy's
punching him in the already dying, right.
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, think about Raiders, and I don't want to
get a soft track. But when he's fighting the German
mechanic and that guy levels him just the way Harrison
Ford wobbles his knees as he drops, like I felt
that punch and if you've ever been hitting the face,
you know you know what that what that feels like,
and you know what your body does, how your body reacts.
Marian trying to help him with his shirt off, and
he's like, ah, oh you believe it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, never been shot out before. This happens to me
all the You call this archaeology. So this, I mean,
I had already given up on the movie well in
advance of the scene. But this is really to your point.
The place that you lose him as a normal human
being happens in the crystal skull. Whenever he goes into
the refrigerator, he is blasted out by an atomic blast.
He lands in the refrigerator. I have no idea why
it's the only thing that gets blasted out of the
fake town is the refrigerator by itself, but that's what happens.
And then it shows you him looking at the mushroom cloud.
That's big, like it's not often the distance a thousand miles,
it's huge. He would be dead as he stood, you'd
be dead as he stood. As it turns out, all
he had to get was a little scrubbing, and he's
perfectly fine. There's no bruises, there's no cuts. He's been
blasted fifty miles in a refrigerator and has no purple
mark on him at all and is relaxing with his
thought at the end of the day. I mean, it's
just absurd.
Speaker 3: D If I put you, If I put you inside
of a lead lined refrigerator and I just drop you
ten feet off off a building, how many broken bones
are you getting when that thing pops open? Because yeah,
you're right, man, he just he kind of rolls out
and kind of groggy AND's like, you know, gives us
a little Harrison Ford grumpy grel and no problem.
Speaker 2: It was lead lined bad bad, by the way, I'll
just say the John McClean stories movies have made the
same mistake.
Speaker 1: It needs to be fun. I think the Bullet Dune
lost of fun with that dark tone, So you gotta
keep it fun. Thank you, def Dave for your take
on that commandment number eight.
Speaker 3: Eight.
Speaker 1: Thou shalt not give any sitting exposition these movies because
they have historical significance that has to be explained. I
understand it. Exposition is necessary with this type of movie.
You've got to lay your ground rules. You've got to
lay your history. I get it. But in Kingdom of
the Crystal Skull it happens twice, and both times both
Indie and the character he is speaking to are just
sitting at a table, and it's awful. It grinds the
movie to a halt and it drives me nuts. In
Kingdom the Crystal Skull happens whenever they are sitting, just
after he's been scrubbed for his nuclear waist, sitting at
a table, and he mentioned something about the Air Force
incident in forty seven, which sounds like a better story
to me than what they're talking about already. That's great,
but he sits. The other guy that he's talking to sits,
he explains something that I still don't understand.
Speaker 3: Having seen the whole movie.
Speaker 1: And then later on he gives exposition to a character
in a diner. In a diner, are you kidding me? What?
You're sitting at a table and nothing is happening except
that you're explaining things that still don't seem to have
a significant impact on the movie. If you're going to
have exposition, it needs to be key to the movie
and it needs to be well explained. And what they
did in Raiders what do they do. They have him
with a blackboard and chalk and he's drawn the lines
from the staff of Raw and he's opening up the
giant book that has the pictures of the lightning coming
out of the Arc of the Covenant. It's beautifully done when.
Speaker 3: They do it.
Speaker 1: In the Last Crusade, they're in the library looking around
for the clue. Right, X never marks the spot, except
that it does in this circumstance. And you've got this
great exposition as things are happening. You can't sit and
stare at another character and give exposition and have it
be a proper Indiana Jones sequel. I'm off my soapbox,
you guys.
Speaker 3: No, you're you're preaching the choir there, because there's more
of that happening in Crystal Skull, where at least they're
in the gravesite and they're kind of walking and talking
and you're in on the adventure.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I agree with you. Sitting around uh and just
having a milkshake and talking about it does not work,
not at all.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: In fact, I think in Last Crusade he's explaining what's
going on to Elsa while they're you know, the Arc
of the Covenant's written on the wall and they've got
rats all around, you got petroleum everywhere, And yeah, the
exposition happens while you are discovering things with Indiana Jones.
Speaker 3: Now the Last Crusade. That's a good moment where two
people are sitting at a table and having a great
conversation and it's meaningful to the movie. And I'm talking
about when they're when they're on the blimp and they're
kind of they're kind of hashing out their their family issues, huh,
and having a little bit of fun with it too,
where he's like, you know, she's old enough to be
your ordered to be your grandfather, you know, and you know,
and then you know it starts to get serious for
a second. And then and then Henry Jones Senior I'm
talking about like he gets excited, He like you know,
moves his chair of his saying, look we're this is
how close we are and sharing his diary and like
it's a great father son moment. That that's a good
moment where you can have exposition with just two people
sitting there talking. But other than that, and the first
scene of Raiders, like you're wasting our time and.
Speaker 2: We don't stay there very long.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's it's not wrong if they sit at a table.
I mean you have Bellock and Indy sitting at a
table on the very first episode, and it's awesome. You
want to talk to God? Yeah, because it's emotional, it's
charged up. It's not let me explain a historical story
to you. That's terrible.
Speaker 2: Raiders is a perfect movie. This is I think it's
unfair to compare anything to Raiders because everything they do
is so well executed. The whole story just keeps moving,
keeps me and keeps moving. Commandment number nine nine, thou
shalt remember that Indiana Jones is a lone wolf. And
I told Jeff you and I were talking about this.
I'm like, this is my biggest problem with a certain
movie that I'm trying to remain spoiler. Indiana Jones doesn't
need your freaking help. If some of his friends want
to hang around and help a little bit, that's okay,
But he's going after the arc. He literally takes on
the entire Nazi army pretty much by himself, with a
little bit of help from Salah and a little bit
of help from Marion in the first movie. In the
second movie, he has to. I mean, Willie is an
obstacle the entire time, Shorty, she is around to throw
him his whip every once in a while. You're getting
ready to defend Willie Scott for us.
Speaker 3: That's that's a bold that's a bold statement. I won't
defend her, but I will say she does technically save
their lives at least once.
Speaker 2: Yes, and then she almost gets them killed immediately after that.
Speaker 3: You're right, yeah, but no, I get what you're saying though,
Like you know, they're along, you know her in short round,
they're along for the ride and there they help when
they when they can't help.
Speaker 2: Maybe maybe lone Wolf is a bit strong. He does
need his friends, but he's not taking a back seat
to anyone.
Speaker 1: He's first, little second fiddle he got I can go
along with. I'm like, I'm thinking a lot of situations
where it was important to have those other characters there.
But yeah, he can never be second fiddle.
Speaker 2: He's the guy who sees the X on the on
the floor. Now then the important thing too to remember
with Indiana Jones, you have the Superman and the Clark
Kent here. Okay, you have the Professor Jones who wears
glasses and a and a bow tie. And then you've
got the bare knuckled fedora wearing leather jacket Indiana Jones.
And there's a distinct break between those two versions of
himself that may or may not show up in the
fifth movie.
Speaker 3: I don't think he shows up at all. And to
D's point, yes, he can't be second Fiddle, but he's
sure as heck can't be the roadie for the second Fiddle.
And there's there's a lot of moments in the third
one where I feel like he's maybe he's not even
the sidekick. He's he's in the back seat. You know,
he's not even riding shotgun. I have one thought though, Yeah,
but you know about about him like the lone wolf behavior,
because I know Jason, when we talk to you, you know,
you were saying, yeah, he's you prefer to be more
of a bond. Let's think about this though. I think
part of the reason that he needs to always be
on his own at the end of the day, he
needs to be on his own because these movies always
see him betrayed. He's never finding that family unit or
that that person has settled down with because he he's
you know, he's betrayed every time. You know, Raiders opens
and closes with Indie getting betrayed. Soapedo double crosses him
with the in the Hoovito's Cave or whatever. Yeah, exactly, Yeah,
the US government promises, Yeah, the museum gets the arc
and you guys can study it, and then it gets
put away, so that uhh, who can look at it?
Speaker 4: D hop Man, top man, top yeah man, Yeah, yeah,
but but Temple of Doom lu Chi double crosses him
on the deal right right to open the movie, Doctor
Elsa Snyder double crosses him.
Speaker 3: Mac Mac double cross he macks a double agent, triple
at whatever. I know, I've said my piece about Mac,
but he betrays him and even in the new one,
and again it's not it's not spoiler because you if
you saw the trailer, you know, Helena Shaw double crosses
him and you know, locks him in with with the
rogue Cia Nazis that are about to kill him, and
she's like, sorry, yeah, he's always getting betrayed. Who can he.
Speaker 1: Count on himself?
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's good, Jeff, that's good. By the way, does
anybody have a problem with him Marion Marion marrying Marian.
Speaker 1: If they had done it right, I wouldn't have a
problem with it. Okay.
Speaker 3: I feel like the best ending for this, for this
character is the last Crusade galloping off in the sunset.
I don't think we could have got better. I think
if you're going to even try and get close, you're
not going to hit a bulls eye, but you might
hit the board. With him marrying Marian.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean James Bond got married. Yeah, I realized.
I mean, spoiler alert, she dies. But I think that
they could have done something as effective with Marian for sure.
Speaker 3: The thing about Marion, think about where we're in introduced
to her. This is a woman that can clearly hold
her own and take care of herself. She has never
been a damsel distress. Even when she was a damsel distress,
you know, it's.
Speaker 1: The perfect soil for him.
Speaker 2: She was a child. Yes, it was wrong, and you
know it.
Speaker 3: She come on, she knew what she was doing. Now,
I would have been okay with Marion still going her
separate ways and doing you know, following in Abner's work
and getting in her own adventures. You know, because she
was a strong She's a strong enough character to do that.
Our tenth and Final Commandment ten honor thy composer. So
let's let's talk about this. There are several people that
have been key to the success of these movies. You
gotta have Lucas, you gotta have Spielberg, that's the brain trust.
You have to have Harrison Ford may or may not
depending on how we look at it in the next
ten years. The fourth guy on that list that you
have to have is John Williams and his iconic school
or his beautiful score. Granted, we know this might be
the last score, the Dialadestiny might be the last score
that John Williams does. You know, I think he's planning
on doing a little bit of limited touring. We might
not get another soundtrack from this guy. In my mind,
he's the greatest of all time. Anyone that has to
follow in his footsteps. You got to come correct and
you got to hit those beats.
Speaker 2: Do you think he did a good job in Dialodestiny.
Speaker 3: You know, Dave and I talked about this on our
back to the box Office review, and I felt guilty
for saying it was lazy, because at the same time,
you know, a bad John Williams score is a great
film score. You know, at the end of the day,
I feel like he maybe he phoned it in a
little bit. Some of the beats that I feel are
necessary we're missing, whether we're talking dialadestiny or we're talking
ten years down the road. When someone does a new theme,
there's certain things that have to be there. The iconic march,
right the Raiders, what's known as the Raiders March. After Raiders,
it still showed up in every movie and it then
became what's known as endo credits. We got to have it.
There's two other themes that you have to have as well.
One of them would be the I'll call this one
the one the heart theme, because you know in Raiders
it's called Marion's Theme. R you know, it's that soft,
slowed down version, and we get we get some of
that a little bit with the flirtatious banter with him
and Willie Scott, when Sean Connery takes out the Nazi
plane with the by using the birds and like, you know,
using his umbrella, and Harrison Ford has that he just
has that great look and just you know, and you
had that soft music, yeah, that soft beat. And then lastly,
I would say there's there's always that ominous theme. Maybe
it's ominous, maybe it's a little bit spooky. And that's
when you're just you're maybe kind of giving us a
little bit of exposition on what this mcguffin can really do.
Speaker 2: You know, you think about Raiders, and again we're comparing
to a perfect movie. But and he has a theme,
Marion has a theme, the head piece to the staff
of Raw has a theme. The arc has a theme.
And then when they open the Arc, you got maybe
the most terrifying piece of music I've ever heard. My
Oh yeah, that doesn't even mention whatever they play when
he's chasing down the truck on the horse and getting
thrown through the windshield, all that, all that thing everybody
was hitting on all cylinders for Raiders, and then this one.
I do we hear the march one time? I think
maybe we heard the march one time.
Speaker 3: I think we briefly heard it in the opening sequel
opening Yep, you know when he's well, I want to
say anything, but yeah, I think you hear a little
bit of it there, and uh, I definitely remember not
hearing it. At the end, I was like, you know what,
give me my Raiders march? So I know that the
movie's over, and then it gave us a different theme,
and I was like, I looked over David, I'm like, well,
they can't even get the ending right, the final credit
music right? Come on?
Speaker 2: You know we talked about it in our when we
covered Raiders. There's two themes. So John Williams came to
Steven Spielberg and said, all right, here's this theme d
D D and then there's this other theme dun da
du and Spielberg's like, love them both, put them together.
Speaker 3: Yep, I want both of them.
Speaker 2: The composer is so important to these movies.
Speaker 3: Think about some of your other iconic franchises. This is
a rarity where you have the director and the star
and the composer always coming back together again. Could you
imagine Last Crusade or Temple of Doom with a different composer.
It would have felt wrong.
Speaker 2: Any final thoughts, guys.
Speaker 1: You have not convinced me to go see the Dial
of Destiny.
Speaker 2: I didn't really want this to be a Dial of
Destiny bash fest. But to do the good you have
to talk about the bad too.
Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, well you have to talk about the bad,
which is Crystal Skull, and you have to talk about
the ugly, which is Tylo Destiny, the good, the bad,
And I'll tell you right now, my goal was not
to convince you to go see the new one, live
blissfully with the original trilogy and know that that is
that's it, right there, that's it.
Speaker 2: I'm a completionist. I could not not go.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I would have been I would have been perfectly
happy to end the trilogy writing into the Sunset as
it should have been.
Speaker 3: And I stand by what I said. My feelings on
Kingdom of the Crystal Skull are documented, but I'm telling
you Dialodestiny is a far worse movie than Kingdom of
the Crystal Skull. That's where I'm at with it.
Speaker 1: And how do you feel? Do you feel that it's
worse than the Crystal Skull.
Speaker 2: I feel like the movie is better, the story was
better than Crystal Skull. But Crystal Skull left the Indiana
Jones character that I love more intact, and so it's
easier for me to swallow Crystal Skull. So there you go. Okay,
quick question before we go, Jeff, can this franchise be saved?
Speaker 3: Yes?
Speaker 2: D Can this franchise be saved?
Speaker 1: Yes?
Speaker 2: Sounds like it's a tough job. We start over in
ten years, twenty years ten.
Speaker 1: There have been some really bad James Bond movies, it's
and they managed to bring it back and make some
of the best I've ever seen.
Speaker 2: All Right, Well, that's gonna wrap it up for us.
I hope you've enjoyed these ten commandments to make a
proper Indiana Jones movie. Jeff, thanks for joining us.
Speaker 3: Man, Hey, I appreciate it. Thank you for giving me
a chance to vent a little bit of frustration after
dial Destiny and talk about what could make this a
great franchise. Again. I appreciate that.
Speaker 2: Hey, tell us where we can find you, guys.
Speaker 3: You can find us streaming wherever you get your streaming from,
or you can always check us out at www dot
afilm by podcast dot com. You can check out all
of our episodes. The website's been changed up a little bit,
so now you can go to you just want to
look at eighty six stuff, or back to the box
office stuff or film at forty five stuff. We have
narrowed it down for you so now there's like a
it's much more user friendly. You can find exactly what
you're looking for. But other than that, we are on
social media at a film buy. We always happy to talk,
always happy to interact and hear feedback and give thee.
Speaker 1: That always find Jeff, thanks for coming over.
Speaker 3: Appreciate Dee.
Speaker 2: All Right, guys, we will see you down the road.
Follow me, I know the way.
Speaker 1: I mean literally. At some point and when we were
watching The Crystal Skull, she was like, you know, you
don't have to keep watching this if you don't want to.
I was like, really, I don't, really, I've been here
for an hour. I can't quit now. I see this
through to the end.