WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.280 --> 00:00:03.080 With the Lucky land Slots, you can get lucky just 2 00:00:03.160 --> 00:00:04.080 about anywhere. 3 00:00:04.919 --> 00:00:07.799 It's your captain speaking. We've got clear runway and the 4 00:00:07.799 --> 00:00:09.759 weather's fine, but we're just gonna circle up here a 5 00:00:09.759 --> 00:00:13.039 while and get lucky. No, no, nothing like that. It's 6 00:00:13.119 --> 00:00:15.720 just these cash prizes add up quick, so I suggest 7 00:00:15.720 --> 00:00:17.719 you sit back, keep your trade table up right, and 8 00:00:18.000 --> 00:00:18.839 start getting lucky. 9 00:00:19.719 --> 00:00:22.559 Play for free at Lucky Landslots dot com. Are you 10 00:00:22.640 --> 00:00:26.320 feeling lucky? No purchase necessary void. We're prohibited by Law 11 00:00:26.399 --> 00:00:30.280 eighteen plus. Terms and conditions apply. See website for details. 12 00:00:30.760 --> 00:00:32.840 Hello, it is Ryan and I was on a flight 13 00:00:32.880 --> 00:00:35.079 the other day playing one of my favorite social spin 14 00:00:35.200 --> 00:00:37.719 slot games on chumbacasino dot com. I looked over at 15 00:00:37.719 --> 00:00:39.520 the person sitting next to me, and you know what 16 00:00:39.560 --> 00:00:42.359 they were doing. They were also playing Chumba Casino. Coincidence, 17 00:00:42.479 --> 00:00:44.799 I think not everybody's loving having fun with it. Chumpa 18 00:00:44.840 --> 00:00:47.240 Casino's home to hundreds oft casino style games you can 19 00:00:47.280 --> 00:00:51.200 play for free anytime, anywhere, even at thirty thousand feet. 20 00:00:51.240 --> 00:00:53.520 So sign up now at Chumbuck Casino dot com to 21 00:00:53.520 --> 00:00:56.759 claim you're free. Welcome bonus. That's Chumbuck Casino dot com 22 00:00:56.840 --> 00:00:59.520 and Live the Chumba Laine, No, We're necessary, I Daly Voidhever, 23 00:00:59.560 --> 00:01:01.079 everybody lost, MS conditions being plus. 24 00:01:08.319 --> 00:01:11.719 You are now listening to True Murder The most shocking 25 00:01:11.840 --> 00:01:14.840 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 26 00:01:14.959 --> 00:01:22.200 written about him Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK. Every 27 00:01:22.280 --> 00:01:25.920 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 28 00:01:26.040 --> 00:01:30.200 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your 29 00:01:30.280 --> 00:01:33.439 host journalist and author Dan Zupanski. 30 00:01:42.760 --> 00:01:45.840 Good evening from the award winning author of True Crow 31 00:01:46.000 --> 00:01:50.920 Sorrow comes another historical true crime story about secret identities, deception, 32 00:01:51.359 --> 00:01:53.879 and murder. At the turn of the century, an ex 33 00:01:54.000 --> 00:01:58.079 convict from Ireland arrives in the backcountry of rural Nova, Scotia, 34 00:01:58.599 --> 00:02:01.480 whereupon he is accused murdering a man and bearing him 35 00:02:01.480 --> 00:02:04.000 in the victim's own cellar under a pile of potatoes. 36 00:02:04.760 --> 00:02:08.039 Rooted in deception, follows the life of John Cavanaugh and 37 00:02:08.240 --> 00:02:11.719 how this petty criminal deceives everyone in his path until 38 00:02:11.759 --> 00:02:14.439 he is eventually accused of a heinous and violent murder 39 00:02:14.599 --> 00:02:17.319 for which he is ultimately hanged. But how much of 40 00:02:17.360 --> 00:02:19.639 the tragedy was of his own doing and how much 41 00:02:19.759 --> 00:02:23.240 had been woven by his enemies. Told from a variety 42 00:02:23.280 --> 00:02:26.759 of perspectives, including that of the accused, the book creates 43 00:02:26.800 --> 00:02:29.680 a sympathetic case for a man who may deserve none. 44 00:02:30.280 --> 00:02:34.639 Using primary sources including newspaper articles, trial transcripts, and actual 45 00:02:34.719 --> 00:02:37.439 letters from the accused. The true story of the murder 46 00:02:37.520 --> 00:02:41.120 of Freeman Harvey is told using creative nonfiction devices to 47 00:02:41.199 --> 00:02:44.599 fill in the gaps of the narrative. Rooted in Deception 48 00:02:44.840 --> 00:02:48.000 follows Two Crow Sorrow, which was awarded the twenty twenty 49 00:02:48.120 --> 00:02:51.960 Bronze Award for Best Creative Nonfiction by the Miramachi Reader. 50 00:02:52.560 --> 00:02:54.719 The book that we're featured in this seting is Rooted 51 00:02:54.840 --> 00:02:59.000 in Deception, with my special guests, journalist and author Laura 52 00:02:59.240 --> 00:03:02.159 Churchill Dous. Welcome to the program and thank you for 53 00:03:02.240 --> 00:03:05.639 this interview. Laura, Cheerchill Duke Hi, thank you so much, 54 00:03:05.719 --> 00:03:08.919 Dan for having me. Thank you so much. Congratulations on 55 00:03:09.080 --> 00:03:13.400 this fascinating, fascinating book. Let's talk about how you came 56 00:03:13.639 --> 00:03:16.360 to be the author, how you first heard about this story. 57 00:03:16.520 --> 00:03:18.599 Give us some of the details on the background of 58 00:03:18.680 --> 00:03:21.280 how you came to be the author of Rooted Interception. 59 00:03:21.719 --> 00:03:22.879 Sure, that's great, So. 60 00:03:23.280 --> 00:03:26.240 I, as you mentioned, I live in rural Nova Scotia 61 00:03:26.439 --> 00:03:30.120 in Canada here and I was taking part one evening 62 00:03:30.400 --> 00:03:33.759 in something called Valley Ghost Walks. So these are historical 63 00:03:33.840 --> 00:03:36.360 walks that we have throughout our region where people go 64 00:03:36.520 --> 00:03:40.599 around and basically characters from the past are brought back 65 00:03:40.639 --> 00:03:42.680 to life to share their stories. And that's all done 66 00:03:42.680 --> 00:03:45.800 through something called Valley Ghost Walks. And I was participating 67 00:03:45.840 --> 00:03:47.719 in one of these walks in the evening and I 68 00:03:47.879 --> 00:03:51.639 heard this story about the murder of Freeman Harvey. And 69 00:03:52.199 --> 00:03:55.120 the story is so peculiar and odd that it kind 70 00:03:55.120 --> 00:03:58.479 of just it's stuck in my mind something really interesting 71 00:03:58.560 --> 00:04:01.240 that I might like to learn more. As you mentioned, 72 00:04:01.479 --> 00:04:04.360 I do have another novel that I had finished writing. 73 00:04:04.439 --> 00:04:06.960 It was called Two Crows Sorrow, and that was also 74 00:04:07.120 --> 00:04:10.439 a true crime murder that happened in nineteen oh four, 75 00:04:11.080 --> 00:04:14.039 also here in the Annapolis Valley of Nova Scotia. And 76 00:04:14.560 --> 00:04:17.759 after having written that and really caught the research bug, 77 00:04:17.839 --> 00:04:21.199 I had begun thinking about what could I possibly research 78 00:04:21.360 --> 00:04:23.920 and write about next. And I am a true crime junkie, 79 00:04:24.480 --> 00:04:27.680 so that is when this story the murder of Freeman 80 00:04:27.759 --> 00:04:30.920 Harvey came to mind, and I really wanted to research 81 00:04:31.000 --> 00:04:31.439 it some more. 82 00:04:32.319 --> 00:04:35.600 You say that when you started your research, and we'll 83 00:04:35.680 --> 00:04:38.639 talk about how you do start that research, you knew 84 00:04:38.680 --> 00:04:41.240 two things. What were the two things that you knew 85 00:04:41.360 --> 00:04:42.560 only about this case? 86 00:04:42.720 --> 00:04:45.720 Yeah, so we knew that Freeman Harvey had been murdered, 87 00:04:45.800 --> 00:04:49.439 and we knew that the convicted murderer was a man 88 00:04:49.560 --> 00:04:52.360 that they were calling George Stanley Kavanaugh. 89 00:04:52.480 --> 00:04:55.439 What we knew was that he was really a con 90 00:04:55.600 --> 00:04:56.920 man and a trickster. 91 00:04:57.120 --> 00:04:59.160 So basically what we knew, we weren't sure if we 92 00:04:59.279 --> 00:05:03.000 really knew it, but based on newspaper reports and some 93 00:05:03.120 --> 00:05:05.639 of the trial transcripts at the time, the two facts 94 00:05:05.639 --> 00:05:08.079 that I did know is that he came from a small. 95 00:05:07.839 --> 00:05:09.240 Town in Ireland. 96 00:05:09.560 --> 00:05:14.680 And I also knew approximately when he was born and 97 00:05:15.079 --> 00:05:18.879 approximately some of the names that this con man had used. 98 00:05:18.959 --> 00:05:20.519 And that was all I had to go on. 99 00:05:20.800 --> 00:05:23.800 Now, you talk about the person that was responsible for 100 00:05:23.959 --> 00:05:27.480 helping you out and the organization that was also instrumental 101 00:05:27.560 --> 00:05:30.600 in helping you. Tell us about that instrumental health. 102 00:05:30.839 --> 00:05:33.480 Yeah, So to me, almost this kind of backstory is 103 00:05:33.519 --> 00:05:36.360 what is most exciting about putting this whole novel together, 104 00:05:36.759 --> 00:05:39.480 is that, as I said, I knew that convicted murderer. 105 00:05:39.600 --> 00:05:42.040 He was from a small town called Ross Craig in 106 00:05:42.759 --> 00:05:46.000 Ireland and so I actually just on a whim, I 107 00:05:46.439 --> 00:05:49.519 sent an email to the historical society there. 108 00:05:49.639 --> 00:05:53.160 And I said, I have this guy. His name could 109 00:05:53.240 --> 00:05:55.959 be this, this or this, and I believe he's from 110 00:05:56.040 --> 00:05:58.040 your town. What can you help me with? 111 00:05:58.319 --> 00:06:01.040 And then that started a relationship with Pamela a Kin 112 00:06:01.279 --> 00:06:04.439 of the Ross Cray Heritage Society there in Ireland, and 113 00:06:04.600 --> 00:06:08.519 she and another fellow historian they started rooting through records 114 00:06:08.680 --> 00:06:12.040 and it was just so exciting because they actually found 115 00:06:12.319 --> 00:06:14.399 this man in all their town records. So I have 116 00:06:14.519 --> 00:06:17.120 his first certificate, I have his school records, I have 117 00:06:17.319 --> 00:06:20.759 his church records, I have his parents' marriage certificates. He 118 00:06:20.879 --> 00:06:23.959 even went and showed me the house where he actually 119 00:06:24.199 --> 00:06:27.120 lived in Ross Cray as well, so we do know 120 00:06:27.279 --> 00:06:30.360 his real name was John Cavanaugh from Ross Cray. So 121 00:06:30.480 --> 00:06:33.160 that was the exciting part. It's forming this relationship with 122 00:06:33.240 --> 00:06:34.720 the historical society there. 123 00:06:34.959 --> 00:06:40.079 Very interesting. You write, Liverpool, England, December fourth, nineteen oh five. 124 00:06:40.600 --> 00:06:44.120 John Cavanaugh is dead, so you say the new John 125 00:06:44.680 --> 00:06:47.959 is at this Albert Docks in Liverpool. Tell us what's 126 00:06:48.000 --> 00:06:51.800 happening and who he is assuming an identity of. 127 00:06:52.000 --> 00:06:54.959 Yeah, so that's you've just read there. Dan is the 128 00:06:55.040 --> 00:06:58.759 opening line of the story rooted interception, and it's kind 129 00:06:58.800 --> 00:07:01.920 of this point. It's kind of as in John Cavanaugh's 130 00:07:01.959 --> 00:07:05.839 life where he has spent much time in Ireland, most 131 00:07:05.879 --> 00:07:08.279 of his life actually in the prison system there, and 132 00:07:08.560 --> 00:07:11.040 he is out we call kind of bail or probation, 133 00:07:11.399 --> 00:07:13.839 and he decides at that point of time to go 134 00:07:14.000 --> 00:07:17.920 to England, and from the Liverpool Docks, he leaves there 135 00:07:18.199 --> 00:07:23.120 and he journeys over to Nova Scotia on the ship register. 136 00:07:23.240 --> 00:07:25.279 I have that as well. When he comes over, he 137 00:07:25.439 --> 00:07:27.720 actually uses the name John Ryan. 138 00:07:27.920 --> 00:07:31.519 So at that point he's creating another identity to start 139 00:07:31.560 --> 00:07:34.519 his life all over again in Nova Scotia. So he 140 00:07:34.639 --> 00:07:38.879 does leave through Liverpool, England, comes arrives in Halifax, Nova 141 00:07:38.879 --> 00:07:43.920 Scotia here where he is involved in many a con 142 00:07:44.079 --> 00:07:47.399 here in Halifax before he makes his way down further 143 00:07:47.639 --> 00:07:51.399 into rural Nova Scotia where he assumes yet another name 144 00:07:51.519 --> 00:07:55.519 and another identity and becomes involved in this murder case. 145 00:07:55.519 --> 00:07:59.040 Let's talk about. Right from the very beginning he uses 146 00:07:59.079 --> 00:08:02.040 this alias John Ryan. But it's very interesting as you 147 00:08:02.160 --> 00:08:05.600 write that immediately he meets someone named Thomas Forcey and 148 00:08:05.680 --> 00:08:09.680 he's very gregarious, this John Ryan, and he tells the 149 00:08:09.759 --> 00:08:13.199 story of where he has come from, and he befriends 150 00:08:13.240 --> 00:08:15.800 this person, and this person says, well, I just happened 151 00:08:15.800 --> 00:08:19.079 to be my wife's running a boarding house. And he 152 00:08:19.360 --> 00:08:23.000 told again just this beginning of the myriad of lies 153 00:08:23.199 --> 00:08:26.279 that this person tells. He says he's a tailor by trade, 154 00:08:26.360 --> 00:08:29.079 and he says, well, I mean there's this big employer 155 00:08:29.160 --> 00:08:32.440 in town Clayton, and Sons is your best bet now. 156 00:08:32.600 --> 00:08:35.440 And he also tells him about a rich uncle that 157 00:08:35.519 --> 00:08:37.759 he has and he's about to send him some money. 158 00:08:37.919 --> 00:08:41.399 So tell us more about this Thomas Forcey and just 159 00:08:41.519 --> 00:08:46.039 the kind of characteristic methodology that this John Ryan uses 160 00:08:46.200 --> 00:08:48.759 to ingratiate himself into the community. 161 00:08:49.039 --> 00:08:51.120 Yeah, so this is kind of a pivotal moment for 162 00:08:51.679 --> 00:08:54.480 John well our John Cavanaugh's when he comes over. He 163 00:08:54.720 --> 00:08:57.480 meets this man Thomas Forcy, as you said on the ship, 164 00:08:57.559 --> 00:09:00.919 and it's kind of this moment where everything together. As 165 00:09:00.960 --> 00:09:04.679 I mentioned before, John Cavanaugh, he is a notorious con 166 00:09:04.799 --> 00:09:08.679 man and a thief, and he's just I picture him 167 00:09:08.799 --> 00:09:12.759 as this wonderful, gregarious, outgoing man you have to be 168 00:09:12.840 --> 00:09:14.360 if you're going to be a con man and you 169 00:09:14.480 --> 00:09:17.879 want to pull people into your deception, you need to 170 00:09:17.960 --> 00:09:20.399 be likable. People need to believe you and they want 171 00:09:20.480 --> 00:09:22.399 to believe you. And of course we're a very trusting 172 00:09:22.799 --> 00:09:25.960 society here too, so that also helps. And yes, he 173 00:09:26.080 --> 00:09:28.320 really did meet this man named Thomas Horsey on the 174 00:09:28.360 --> 00:09:32.080 ship who he and his wife did own a boarding house, 175 00:09:32.320 --> 00:09:36.360 So that was very pivotal moment because from then John 176 00:09:36.440 --> 00:09:39.639 did come to Halifax, lived with Thomas and his wife 177 00:09:39.720 --> 00:09:43.440 Jesse for a while and gets involved in some scams right. 178 00:09:43.399 --> 00:09:46.720 There, stealing from the people with whom he is staying. 179 00:09:46.879 --> 00:09:49.799 The police are involved, so it is just from that 180 00:09:50.039 --> 00:09:53.639 moment it's like John Cavanaugh almost has this compulsion. He's 181 00:09:53.840 --> 00:09:57.879 unable to stop and really form a real relationship with anybody. 182 00:09:57.960 --> 00:10:00.600 He's telling lies right from the g He's got a 183 00:10:00.679 --> 00:10:02.840 rich uncle, he's got a sister who's coming to move 184 00:10:03.039 --> 00:10:05.919 with him. Of course, reading in hindsight, you can see 185 00:10:05.919 --> 00:10:07.799 why you shouldn't believe anything he said, but you can 186 00:10:07.879 --> 00:10:10.240 also see how people, especially at the time, are so 187 00:10:10.399 --> 00:10:14.240 trusting and just taken in by this charismatic irishman. He's 188 00:10:14.360 --> 00:10:16.879 only about five two five three. I picture him is 189 00:10:17.000 --> 00:10:20.039 this is lovely gentleman. My husband does say, My problem 190 00:10:20.159 --> 00:10:21.200 is I liked him too much. 191 00:10:21.799 --> 00:10:24.480 Yeah, he is a very interesting character. 192 00:10:24.720 --> 00:10:28.679 It's interesting right away you tell that he is caught 193 00:10:28.840 --> 00:10:32.480 and suspected of stealing at this boarding house, and of 194 00:10:32.559 --> 00:10:36.039 course they notify the police about their suspicions and want 195 00:10:36.120 --> 00:10:40.240 him arrested. The police dilly dally and don't and say, well, 196 00:10:40.440 --> 00:10:43.360 tomorrow will be soon enough, And sure enough, this John 197 00:10:43.480 --> 00:10:45.480 Ryan is gone in the wind, isn't he. 198 00:10:45.639 --> 00:10:46.679 Yes, that's absolutely right. 199 00:10:46.799 --> 00:10:49.679 And there's a lot of research done too in the 200 00:10:49.759 --> 00:10:52.480 in Nova Scotia two of just about that police chief himself, 201 00:10:52.639 --> 00:10:55.360 who had a notoriously bad reputation as well for not 202 00:10:55.519 --> 00:10:58.080 really doing great police work, and this was a prime 203 00:10:58.159 --> 00:11:01.480 example of head John Ryan and John Kavanaugh have been 204 00:11:01.519 --> 00:11:05.120 caught at that moment, everything that happens afterwards would probably 205 00:11:05.279 --> 00:11:06.960 well definitely would have been prevented. 206 00:11:07.159 --> 00:11:09.519 You're right that the only thing that he left behind 207 00:11:09.759 --> 00:11:12.600 was a pair of old boots, and they recognized the 208 00:11:12.679 --> 00:11:15.879 boots as the kinds of boots that convicts would wear. 209 00:11:16.200 --> 00:11:19.440 The next date that you have is January sixteenth, So 210 00:11:19.639 --> 00:11:23.639 soon after you take us to Bedford, Nova Scotia, and 211 00:11:24.399 --> 00:11:28.000 John Ryan is in a hotel room and checked in 212 00:11:28.159 --> 00:11:32.039 as mister Doyle. Of course his bill is to be paid, 213 00:11:32.080 --> 00:11:34.639 and of course he's probably telling the same story about 214 00:11:34.679 --> 00:11:37.679 the rich uncle and the money coming anytime soon. Tell 215 00:11:37.759 --> 00:11:40.960 us what happens at this Bedford, Nova Scotia hotel room. 216 00:11:41.200 --> 00:11:44.080 Right, So Bedford is just right outside of Halifax, So 217 00:11:44.200 --> 00:11:46.519 he's escaped from Halifax from courting House and he's gone 218 00:11:46.519 --> 00:11:49.240 to Bedford, which is really like a stone stowaway, so 219 00:11:49.320 --> 00:11:50.159 he's really. 220 00:11:49.960 --> 00:11:50.679 Not far away. 221 00:11:50.759 --> 00:11:54.080 And then, of course point in time, the hotelier wants 222 00:11:54.120 --> 00:11:57.559 his money paid, and so John realizes, why you don't 223 00:11:57.559 --> 00:12:00.200 have the money to pay, so he tells the man 224 00:12:00.200 --> 00:12:02.519 at the hotel get the money for you, and he 225 00:12:02.600 --> 00:12:05.960 leaves and again takes off and never comes back. All 226 00:12:06.039 --> 00:12:08.679 of this information does to say what we're talking about here. 227 00:12:08.799 --> 00:12:11.559 All is the result information that later comes out in 228 00:12:11.639 --> 00:12:14.480 newspaper articles with all these people being interviewed. 229 00:12:14.080 --> 00:12:14.879 As to what happened. 230 00:12:14.919 --> 00:12:16.840 So that's how we kind of are putting the sequence 231 00:12:16.879 --> 00:12:20.600 events all together. But basically he takes off again, does 232 00:12:20.639 --> 00:12:24.399 it pay, and leaves Bedford to head towards more rural 233 00:12:24.440 --> 00:12:25.000 Nova Scotia. 234 00:12:25.159 --> 00:12:27.440 Take us at January twenty sixth, and there is another 235 00:12:28.080 --> 00:12:32.559 center called Eller House, Nova Scotia, and another hotel, Eller 236 00:12:32.639 --> 00:12:37.279 House Hotel. And this John Ryan, you say, comments because 237 00:12:37.320 --> 00:12:40.559 it's he's a foreigner in the country. This is pure woodland. 238 00:12:40.799 --> 00:12:44.399 This is pure wilderness that this guy has found himself in, 239 00:12:44.919 --> 00:12:46.519 not knowing where exactly he's going. 240 00:12:46.759 --> 00:12:46.919 Yeah. 241 00:12:46.960 --> 00:12:49.600 Absolutely, And this is one of the key factors that 242 00:12:49.720 --> 00:12:52.080 I think is the reason that he decided to stay 243 00:12:52.120 --> 00:12:54.600 in Eller's house. I believe he took the train from 244 00:12:54.679 --> 00:12:59.519 Halifox into Eller's house. Driving it takes maybe forty five minutes, 245 00:12:59.559 --> 00:13:01.519 and it really is even to this day, it is 246 00:13:01.720 --> 00:13:05.639 still very woodland, really rural, Nova Scotia. 247 00:13:05.799 --> 00:13:09.399 And I believe that is why John Ryan and John 248 00:13:09.440 --> 00:13:10.960 Cavanaugh decided. 249 00:13:10.519 --> 00:13:13.960 To stay in Eller's house because it really, really truly 250 00:13:14.120 --> 00:13:16.399 is in the middle of nowhere in the woods, which 251 00:13:16.399 --> 00:13:19.320 would make a very perfect place to hide and for 252 00:13:19.480 --> 00:13:21.480 him even just to regroup or figure out. 253 00:13:21.399 --> 00:13:23.440 What he's going to do next. And so at this 254 00:13:23.600 --> 00:13:24.919 time he assumes the. 255 00:13:25.000 --> 00:13:28.399 Name George Stanley, and that's really what he's called to 256 00:13:28.519 --> 00:13:31.200 and refer to in most of the trial information. From there, 257 00:13:31.240 --> 00:13:34.200 he's known as George Stanley. But he then gets involved 258 00:13:34.399 --> 00:13:37.759 himself in another scam with the people of Eller's House 259 00:13:38.000 --> 00:13:40.320 and trying to get them to sign up to have 260 00:13:40.879 --> 00:13:44.200 telephones installed. This is the time nineteen oh six course, 261 00:13:44.279 --> 00:13:47.399 where we're just starting to see those telephones happening. But 262 00:13:47.480 --> 00:13:50.519 what really interests me at this time is that although 263 00:13:50.559 --> 00:13:52.399 he may have a long list of people who want 264 00:13:52.519 --> 00:13:56.240 to sign up for his telephones, but he never collects 265 00:13:56.360 --> 00:13:59.279 money from anybody, which I find is very interesting. 266 00:13:59.480 --> 00:14:00.440 So he is a scam. 267 00:14:00.519 --> 00:14:04.120 He's ingratiating himself into the community, but yet he is 268 00:14:04.200 --> 00:14:06.799 not yet collecting money, but he's still making a name 269 00:14:06.840 --> 00:14:07.320 for himself. 270 00:14:07.399 --> 00:14:10.440 You're right that he's talking to the hotel Eller House 271 00:14:10.519 --> 00:14:14.200 hotel owner Charles Reich, and he tells him that he's 272 00:14:14.240 --> 00:14:16.399 from London and he's been here a couple of weeks, 273 00:14:16.799 --> 00:14:20.600 and it also lied and told that others similar in 274 00:14:20.679 --> 00:14:23.360 business had signed up for his service as well with 275 00:14:23.480 --> 00:14:26.440 this Western Union telephone. But he also at that time 276 00:14:27.200 --> 00:14:31.039 is asking if there's any farms for sale, and then 277 00:14:31.159 --> 00:14:34.960 so this Charles Reich says, well there's he did hear 278 00:14:35.080 --> 00:14:38.879 that old mister Harvey might be wanting to sell with 279 00:14:39.039 --> 00:14:43.039 his wife working in town, and he's left there all 280 00:14:43.360 --> 00:14:46.960 most of the time by himself and getting on in age, 281 00:14:47.039 --> 00:14:49.840 and and he's maybe having a hard time with the farm. 282 00:14:50.159 --> 00:14:54.799 So that's what this George Stanley gets to hear at 283 00:14:54.879 --> 00:14:58.519 this Charles Reich's hotel. So he continues with this scam 284 00:14:58.759 --> 00:15:02.320 and talking to other people, but he is his interest 285 00:15:02.399 --> 00:15:05.440 has been peeped by the talk of old mister Harvey 286 00:15:05.559 --> 00:15:07.559 and his farm and some of the details that he 287 00:15:07.679 --> 00:15:09.759 has been given by this hotel owner. 288 00:15:09.919 --> 00:15:11.759 That's right, and I think that's kind of what planted 289 00:15:11.799 --> 00:15:15.480 a seed, saying, oh, okay, here's another venue, another option, 290 00:15:15.679 --> 00:15:18.519 another thing that I could try exploring. So the big question, 291 00:15:18.600 --> 00:15:21.639 of course is does he really mean to purchase the 292 00:15:21.720 --> 00:15:23.919 farm or is he just seeing this as really as 293 00:15:23.960 --> 00:15:27.159 an easy target, an older man living by himself. 294 00:15:27.360 --> 00:15:30.159 And so, of course John Cavanaugh he goes to the 295 00:15:30.200 --> 00:15:30.919 house to see the. 296 00:15:30.919 --> 00:15:33.799 Old man and he asks for to make change or 297 00:15:33.879 --> 00:15:36.720 something like that, and he realizes that Freeman Harvey is 298 00:15:36.759 --> 00:15:39.440 the one responsible for collecting the school taxes. He actually 299 00:15:39.480 --> 00:15:42.000 went George door and collected cash and he had it 300 00:15:42.080 --> 00:15:45.399 all in his house. So John Cavanaugh knows that this 301 00:15:45.720 --> 00:15:47.799 old man is in this house. He has lots of 302 00:15:47.879 --> 00:15:51.519 money available, easy target. He's alone, he's older, he's very 303 00:15:51.600 --> 00:15:52.480 very deaf as well. 304 00:15:53.159 --> 00:15:55.759 Now he's also asked because he doesn't have a place 305 00:15:55.840 --> 00:15:59.840 to stay. And even the mister Harvey, old man Harvey, 306 00:16:00.279 --> 00:16:03.279 when he asked if who's interest in selling his farm, said, 307 00:16:03.440 --> 00:16:05.159 you don't really look like kind of guy that has 308 00:16:05.279 --> 00:16:09.639 enough money. So he also says to the farmer or 309 00:16:10.039 --> 00:16:12.360 mister Harvey, he says that you know any cheap place 310 00:16:12.440 --> 00:16:15.120 in the area that I could stay while I'm waiting 311 00:16:15.200 --> 00:16:18.600 for this windfall of money. And so he suggests the 312 00:16:18.720 --> 00:16:22.399 Fisher family. Tell us about the Fisher family and are 313 00:16:22.480 --> 00:16:24.919 they willing to take in this George Stanley. 314 00:16:25.039 --> 00:16:29.679 Yeah, the Fisher family. They become very involved with George 315 00:16:30.080 --> 00:16:32.480 George Stanley John A Kabnat I never quite know how 316 00:16:32.519 --> 00:16:35.600 to keep referring Tommy. They become very involved with him, 317 00:16:35.600 --> 00:16:37.840 and they do have kind of like a boarding house 318 00:16:38.039 --> 00:16:42.399 sort of and John ends up renting a room from them. Now, 319 00:16:42.519 --> 00:16:45.840 the Fisher family is I would definitely call them like 320 00:16:45.960 --> 00:16:48.279 a product of the time periods. 321 00:16:48.279 --> 00:16:49.840 Again, we're right at the turn of the century. 322 00:16:50.000 --> 00:16:54.440 This is a very very very poor family and illiterate 323 00:16:54.799 --> 00:16:59.240 uneducated family again in the middle of nowhere. So those 324 00:16:59.360 --> 00:17:03.159 kind of are all circumstances that are around that family 325 00:17:03.320 --> 00:17:05.799 kind of creating leading to what's going to happen next. 326 00:17:05.920 --> 00:17:09.039 But as I say, they're uneducated, they have no ideas. 327 00:17:09.119 --> 00:17:12.640 So they are very taken in by John Cavanaugh, who 328 00:17:12.680 --> 00:17:16.039 we've already said is like a charlatan. He's really gregarious, 329 00:17:16.160 --> 00:17:18.279 and they definitely, for lack of better words, they fall 330 00:17:18.319 --> 00:17:21.000 in love with him. They becomes a part of their family, 331 00:17:21.279 --> 00:17:24.200 and by all accounts and all the newspapers, all the 332 00:17:24.279 --> 00:17:27.720 trial transcripts, this family is really described as, for a 333 00:17:27.799 --> 00:17:30.240 lack of better words, not the sharpest tools. 334 00:17:30.000 --> 00:17:30.440 In the shed. 335 00:17:30.759 --> 00:17:34.000 So they really have no idea what is happening to 336 00:17:34.240 --> 00:17:37.680 them or around them, and especially when they welcome this 337 00:17:38.000 --> 00:17:42.039 character into their home and their son Jim, who's about 338 00:17:42.240 --> 00:17:45.680 twenty five ish, John Bryan is about forty. They become 339 00:17:45.799 --> 00:17:50.400 fast friends and John promises that the son Jim, that 340 00:17:50.519 --> 00:17:53.200 he could have a job working with the telephone company. 341 00:17:53.480 --> 00:17:57.319 Then he also promises the Fisher family, well you can 342 00:17:57.680 --> 00:17:59.720 you can live in Freeman Harvey's house. 343 00:17:59.599 --> 00:18:00.319 Once I by it. 344 00:18:00.680 --> 00:18:02.960 I'm going to give you this farm and this house 345 00:18:03.160 --> 00:18:05.480 to take care of so of course they're even more 346 00:18:05.519 --> 00:18:06.599 smitten with him because of. 347 00:18:06.599 --> 00:18:07.440 That news as well. 348 00:18:07.599 --> 00:18:10.519 You're also talk that the matriarch of this family, the 349 00:18:10.599 --> 00:18:13.400 head of this family is Mary Anne and you say 350 00:18:13.680 --> 00:18:18.880 inarticulate and uneducated and very very very gullible. Now George 351 00:18:18.920 --> 00:18:23.920 Stanley goes to see Harvey to see the farmer. What 352 00:18:24.319 --> 00:18:26.920 happens in this discussion? How does it come about? And 353 00:18:27.160 --> 00:18:29.880 with this person so hard at hearing tell us about 354 00:18:30.319 --> 00:18:34.079 his coming to this farm and having discussion with this 355 00:18:34.279 --> 00:18:35.039 old man Harvey. 356 00:18:35.240 --> 00:18:37.880 Yeah, so this is the part too where so Freeman 357 00:18:37.960 --> 00:18:41.319 Harvey does have a conversation with John Ryan about purchasing 358 00:18:41.400 --> 00:18:44.200 the farm. We do know that this happens, but as 359 00:18:44.319 --> 00:18:47.519 for really what really happens at that particular moment on 360 00:18:47.920 --> 00:18:50.640 everything kind of blows up starts taking place on the 361 00:18:50.720 --> 00:18:54.440 Friday afternoon, we do know that John or George Stanley, 362 00:18:54.480 --> 00:18:56.880 he goes to visit Fuldman Freeman Harvey to talk about 363 00:18:56.920 --> 00:18:58.160 the purchasing of the farm. 364 00:18:58.279 --> 00:19:01.319 As I mentioned before, was a really really going to 365 00:19:01.400 --> 00:19:02.240 buy this farm? 366 00:19:02.599 --> 00:19:04.880 And if so, what was the money he was going 367 00:19:04.920 --> 00:19:07.359 to use to purchase the farm or was this just 368 00:19:07.440 --> 00:19:10.240 a ploy to get the money that he thought was 369 00:19:10.279 --> 00:19:10.839 in the house. 370 00:19:11.000 --> 00:19:14.359 So basically John Cob now he does go there on 371 00:19:14.440 --> 00:19:15.079 the Friday. 372 00:19:14.839 --> 00:19:17.759 Afternoon, and then the Saturday morning he goes back to 373 00:19:17.880 --> 00:19:21.279 the Fisher's house and he says, he waves some papers 374 00:19:21.319 --> 00:19:23.319 in the air and says, look, I have the deeds 375 00:19:23.359 --> 00:19:26.279 to the farm. You can now go and move into 376 00:19:26.640 --> 00:19:29.759 the farm. Freeman Hervey he has gone to Halifax. He's 377 00:19:29.799 --> 00:19:31.960 gone to the city to work out the paperwork and 378 00:19:32.160 --> 00:19:34.680 do all the legal things for the selling of the farm. 379 00:19:34.759 --> 00:19:35.440 So he's not there. 380 00:19:35.640 --> 00:19:38.880 You come, you move in, and that's like the Saturday morning, 381 00:19:39.000 --> 00:19:41.720 and that kind of sets the whole thing for the 382 00:19:41.839 --> 00:19:44.119 scene for what happens over the weekend. 383 00:19:44.480 --> 00:19:47.480 You talk about though, that George Stanley borrows a knife 384 00:19:47.599 --> 00:19:50.759 I believe from one of the Fisher boys, David, I believe, 385 00:19:50.960 --> 00:19:53.880 And David says, what for, what do you need the knife? Well, 386 00:19:54.000 --> 00:19:56.480 I'm doing some business and I need the knife. He says, 387 00:19:56.519 --> 00:19:59.319 well it's pretty dull, and he says that's okay. He 388 00:19:59.400 --> 00:20:02.079 still borrows, says I need to do some business with 389 00:20:02.200 --> 00:20:04.000 this knife. I'll give it back to you. He gives 390 00:20:04.039 --> 00:20:07.119 that knife back the next day. What does this David 391 00:20:07.319 --> 00:20:08.920 note about that knife? 392 00:20:09.200 --> 00:20:11.799 Yeah, so he again, Yeah, he borrows the jack knife. 393 00:20:11.839 --> 00:20:14.440 He goes down to see Freeman Harvey, comes back the 394 00:20:14.519 --> 00:20:16.440 next day, returns the knife, and all of a sudden, 395 00:20:16.480 --> 00:20:18.559 the knife is a lot sharper and a whole lot 396 00:20:18.720 --> 00:20:21.440 cleaner than he when he first. 397 00:20:21.440 --> 00:20:23.680 Leant out the knife. So that was a little bit 398 00:20:23.720 --> 00:20:24.359 of a suspicion. 399 00:20:24.400 --> 00:20:26.759 I'm not sure David Fisher really would have picked up 400 00:20:26.839 --> 00:20:29.839 on all that information, but right, he does make. 401 00:20:29.720 --> 00:20:30.480