1 00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:04,160 Speaker 1: You're listening to the Mind Over Murder podcast. 2 00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:09,679 Speaker 2: My name is Bill Thomas. I'm a writer, consulting, producer, 3 00:00:09,720 --> 00:00:12,839 and now podcaster. I am now trying to use my 4 00:00:12,919 --> 00:00:15,800 experience as the brother of a murder victim to help 5 00:00:15,839 --> 00:00:18,600 other victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book 6 00:00:18,679 --> 00:00:21,440 on the unsolved Colonial Parkway murders, and I'm the co 7 00:00:21,519 --> 00:00:24,760 administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with 8 00:00:24,839 --> 00:00:25,519 Kristin Dilly. 9 00:00:26,079 --> 00:00:27,359 Speaker 3: My name is Kristin Dilly. 10 00:00:27,519 --> 00:00:31,199 Speaker 4: I'm a writer, a researcher, a teacher, and a victim's advocate, 11 00:00:31,359 --> 00:00:34,719 as well as the social media manager and co administrator 12 00:00:34,799 --> 00:00:37,799 for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner 13 00:00:37,840 --> 00:00:38,560 in crime. 14 00:00:38,359 --> 00:00:43,640 Speaker 3: Bill Thomas. Welcome to Mind Ever Murder. I'm Kristin Dilly 15 00:00:43,679 --> 00:00:46,799 and I'm Bill Thomas. Would I saw you off entirely 16 00:00:46,840 --> 00:00:49,000 one day if I said I'm Bill Thomas, what would 17 00:00:49,039 --> 00:00:49,399 you say? 18 00:00:49,520 --> 00:00:51,560 Speaker 2: I know you threatened that a few weeks ago. I 19 00:00:51,600 --> 00:00:53,719 would roll with it and I would pretend to be 20 00:00:53,840 --> 00:00:58,840 You wouldn't even face me. I'm ready because you've hinted 21 00:00:58,880 --> 00:01:02,240 at it twice now and it just shows quite how 22 00:01:02,320 --> 00:01:04,040 dangerous and deranged you can be. 23 00:01:04,680 --> 00:01:06,040 Speaker 3: Oh yeah, I could just show that. 24 00:01:06,959 --> 00:01:10,519 Speaker 2: And I'm prepared, I'm nimble, I'm ready. You can throw 25 00:01:10,560 --> 00:01:13,680 anything you want at me and I will not even 26 00:01:13,760 --> 00:01:14,280 be phazed. 27 00:01:15,079 --> 00:01:17,680 Speaker 3: Cool. So mental gymnastics are a thing that you can 28 00:01:17,719 --> 00:01:18,359 do with ease. 29 00:01:18,560 --> 00:01:21,680 Speaker 2: And when's the last time someone called you dangerous and deranged? 30 00:01:22,480 --> 00:01:23,719 Speaker 3: My therapist? Two weeks? 31 00:01:26,480 --> 00:01:28,640 Speaker 2: Oh, I can see that we're. 32 00:01:28,519 --> 00:01:33,599 Speaker 3: Kidding, folks, just kidding potentially. Oh, it is a snowy 33 00:01:33,719 --> 00:01:37,280 day here in coastal Virginia, and Bill is rolling his 34 00:01:37,359 --> 00:01:40,280 eyes because I just got the phone call that we 35 00:01:40,359 --> 00:01:43,079 have a snow day tomorrow, and I realized. 36 00:01:42,760 --> 00:01:44,280 Speaker 2: That's snow day number two. 37 00:01:45,200 --> 00:01:47,640 Speaker 3: Actually tomorrow is going to be snow day number three, 38 00:01:47,719 --> 00:01:50,439 because we were off this past Friday, we were off today, 39 00:01:50,439 --> 00:01:51,560 We're gonna be off tomorrow. 40 00:01:51,760 --> 00:01:55,920 Speaker 2: I know, when the Commonwealth of Virginia is paralyzed by 41 00:01:55,959 --> 00:02:00,159 a four inch snowstorm, I must take the opportunity to 42 00:02:00,200 --> 00:02:03,680 tease just a little bit. But I guess the fact 43 00:02:03,719 --> 00:02:07,239 that the Commonwealth only owns two snowplows does create a 44 00:02:07,319 --> 00:02:08,159 bit of a problem. 45 00:02:08,639 --> 00:02:11,639 Speaker 3: Sure, yeah, that's probably what it is. I will say 46 00:02:11,719 --> 00:02:15,039 that people who come up here from Florida would probably 47 00:02:15,120 --> 00:02:18,599 be paralyzed by less than four inches of snows You 48 00:02:18,680 --> 00:02:20,120 gotta give us a little bit of credit. 49 00:02:20,560 --> 00:02:20,879 Speaker 2: I do. 50 00:02:21,120 --> 00:02:24,159 Speaker 3: Maybe you don't. Maybe you don't. You're the person who 51 00:02:24,240 --> 00:02:26,719 moved into the middle of the ice box of Connecticut, 52 00:02:26,719 --> 00:02:28,800 and you have to deal with this stuff all the time. 53 00:02:29,000 --> 00:02:33,360 Speaker 2: This is true, and it can be dangerous. I do understand, 54 00:02:33,400 --> 00:02:35,719 and I don't want terrible things to happen to our 55 00:02:35,759 --> 00:02:38,159 friends in Virginia or anywhere. So if you have to 56 00:02:38,199 --> 00:02:40,080 take the day off, you have to take the day off. 57 00:02:40,599 --> 00:02:43,960 Speaker 3: I'm curious, what does it take to close schools in Connecticut? 58 00:02:44,719 --> 00:02:49,479 Speaker 2: Oh, seriously, yifs legitimately they have the same kind of standards. 59 00:02:49,840 --> 00:02:53,000 None of us want to see kids or school buses 60 00:02:53,360 --> 00:02:56,919 in accidents or anything like that. I would say, four 61 00:02:57,000 --> 00:02:59,120 or five six inches of snow, you're definitely going to 62 00:02:59,199 --> 00:03:01,879 have a snow day. Crap, there's no question about it. 63 00:03:02,599 --> 00:03:05,479 Speaker 3: Right, fair enough? And here we are at four inches, 64 00:03:05,560 --> 00:03:08,639 so we have hit your respectable amount there. I think 65 00:03:08,639 --> 00:03:11,280 it's four inches now. I haven't outside, it's too cold. 66 00:03:11,479 --> 00:03:14,800 Speaker 2: I stand corrected. I but I will continue to tease 67 00:03:14,919 --> 00:03:18,159 my good friends in Virginia who are paralyzed by four 68 00:03:18,199 --> 00:03:20,960 inches of snow it's a good time to go out 69 00:03:21,000 --> 00:03:23,439 and do snow angels if you're familiar. 70 00:03:24,319 --> 00:03:26,360 Speaker 3: It's too cold. I'm not going to go outside of inches. 71 00:03:26,759 --> 00:03:31,280 Speaker 2: Okay, then you come in and you have hot coco. 72 00:03:31,479 --> 00:03:32,599 That's just how it works. 73 00:03:32,800 --> 00:03:35,599 Speaker 3: Yeah, that is true. However, it is cold and dark 74 00:03:35,719 --> 00:03:38,680 as it gets to be in the winter, and I 75 00:03:38,680 --> 00:03:40,919 will not go out in this right now. Maybe I'll 76 00:03:40,960 --> 00:03:43,599 take a little walk later five to ten minutes and 77 00:03:43,680 --> 00:03:44,479 get my fill of it. 78 00:03:44,719 --> 00:03:45,919 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's it. Yeah. 79 00:03:46,479 --> 00:03:49,400 Speaker 3: We are continuing our ask Us anything, and as you 80 00:03:49,400 --> 00:03:51,560 guys know who've been with us for a while, ask 81 00:03:51,639 --> 00:03:56,039 us anythings very rarely stay at one episodee. They usually 82 00:03:56,080 --> 00:03:59,280 go to two. It's three, sometimes even four. And we 83 00:03:59,360 --> 00:04:02,199 had so many amazing questions come in to us from 84 00:04:02,280 --> 00:04:04,319 our various stute listeners that we wanted to try to 85 00:04:04,360 --> 00:04:07,560 answer as many as we possibly could. When we left 86 00:04:07,560 --> 00:04:12,120 off last time, we were answering a question from Robert, 87 00:04:12,120 --> 00:04:15,520 one of our loyal listeners. I'm going to reread the 88 00:04:15,639 --> 00:04:19,399 question and get to his next line of thought and 89 00:04:19,439 --> 00:04:22,519 then his question beyond that, and we can go from there. 90 00:04:23,279 --> 00:04:26,800 The question that we answered last episode was this one. 91 00:04:27,120 --> 00:04:29,720 Three of Wilmer's four victims have some degree of connection 92 00:04:29,800 --> 00:04:33,120 to Liberty Security. If the Pettenger and call Haley cases 93 00:04:33,120 --> 00:04:35,680 are eventually tied to Wilmer, even more victims would have 94 00:04:35,720 --> 00:04:38,959 a connection to that company. Does this make you rethink 95 00:04:39,000 --> 00:04:42,040 whether these are actually crimes of opportunity or do you 96 00:04:42,079 --> 00:04:44,959 think there's a chance these were more planned and premeditated 97 00:04:44,959 --> 00:04:48,720 attacks committed with intention of targeting a specific victim due 98 00:04:48,720 --> 00:04:51,199 to their connection to Liberty Security. So that was asked 99 00:04:51,199 --> 00:04:55,439 and answered last episode. I also like this little bit 100 00:04:55,480 --> 00:04:59,000 of information here that Robert gave at the end. He said, 101 00:04:59,319 --> 00:05:02,519 the dissonance I'm trying to resolve is if Wilmer was 102 00:05:02,560 --> 00:05:06,519 purely opportunistic in selecting victims at random, how does it 103 00:05:06,639 --> 00:05:09,240 end up that a significant portion of these victims have 104 00:05:09,319 --> 00:05:14,000 a connection to a single security company, and nonetheless a 105 00:05:14,079 --> 00:05:18,199 company owned by a sketchy character who inserted himself into 106 00:05:18,240 --> 00:05:21,639 the Colonial Parkway murder cases. I don't know what to 107 00:05:21,680 --> 00:05:25,279 make of this bill for anybody who isn't familiar with 108 00:05:25,399 --> 00:05:28,480 the way that Ron Little inserted himself into the investigation, 109 00:05:28,959 --> 00:05:30,800 can you do a quick reminder on that? 110 00:05:31,439 --> 00:05:35,040 Speaker 2: Sure, Robert's hitting us with a lot, but let's focus 111 00:05:35,160 --> 00:05:39,360 on the part you steered us towards first. In nineteen 112 00:05:39,800 --> 00:05:45,279 eighty eight, Ron Little, who had emigrated from his native 113 00:05:45,319 --> 00:05:50,800 New Zealand to California. Initially he moved to Tracy, California. 114 00:05:51,360 --> 00:05:54,040 He tracked down a woman that he knew from New 115 00:05:54,160 --> 00:05:58,319 zealand ended up wooing her, as my father would say, 116 00:05:58,639 --> 00:06:02,079 marrying her, having a and then they split up, and 117 00:06:02,120 --> 00:06:06,040 then for reasons we still don't completely understand. This is 118 00:06:06,199 --> 00:06:08,920 one of our many questions about Ron Little. We're not 119 00:06:09,120 --> 00:06:14,000 quite sure how Ron Little, New Zealander moves from California 120 00:06:14,040 --> 00:06:18,480 to Gloucester, Virginia. And we're not putting down Gloucester at all. 121 00:06:18,519 --> 00:06:22,360 It's a beautiful place, but it's an odd choice. What's 122 00:06:22,439 --> 00:06:25,480 the California to Virginia connection. So this is something we're 123 00:06:25,519 --> 00:06:29,319 still looking for more information about. If anybody who's listening 124 00:06:29,360 --> 00:06:32,839 to our podcast has any idea, we're welcome to it. 125 00:06:33,639 --> 00:06:38,040 So Ron Little ended up working for Liberty Security. He 126 00:06:38,199 --> 00:06:41,680 was attending classes at what was then called Thomas Nelson 127 00:06:41,720 --> 00:06:46,720 Community College. He ended up supposedly purchasing Liberty Security, and 128 00:06:46,759 --> 00:06:48,680 I have some doubts as to whether that was a 129 00:06:49,040 --> 00:06:51,560 real purchase. I'm not sure he would have had the 130 00:06:51,560 --> 00:06:55,920 financial wherewithal to buy a small security company outright. I 131 00:06:55,959 --> 00:06:58,079 think that may have been a straw man purchase from 132 00:06:58,199 --> 00:07:02,079 the previous owner, a man named John Knight. Hawthorne. Little 133 00:07:02,519 --> 00:07:06,120 inserted himself in the Colonial Parkway murders in a very 134 00:07:06,160 --> 00:07:09,959 bizarre way, around the time of Brian Pattinger and Lorian 135 00:07:10,040 --> 00:07:13,759 Powell's murder and the disappearance of Keith Collin. Cassandra Haley 136 00:07:13,800 --> 00:07:16,279 s this is nineteen eighty eight. He ends up making 137 00:07:16,439 --> 00:07:20,959 public statements that he is going to solve the Colonial 138 00:07:21,000 --> 00:07:25,160 Parkway murders, that he knows who is committing these murders, 139 00:07:25,279 --> 00:07:28,920 and that he is going to bring them to justice. Effectively, 140 00:07:29,000 --> 00:07:31,759 I'm rolling my eyes a bit. He ended up doing 141 00:07:31,839 --> 00:07:36,639 interviews with local newspapers and local television. I know there's 142 00:07:36,639 --> 00:07:40,120 one video clip that we've seen several times which has 143 00:07:40,319 --> 00:07:44,600 run Little wearing this very eighties style pink jacket, walking 144 00:07:44,639 --> 00:07:50,399 along talking to longtime Wavy reporter and friend of the podcast, 145 00:07:50,519 --> 00:07:54,079 Andy Fox, making these claims that he knows who's committing 146 00:07:54,079 --> 00:07:58,759 the Colonial Parkway murders. He ended up writing this bizarre 147 00:07:59,199 --> 00:08:02,600 multi page letter. You can tell this is the eighties 148 00:08:02,680 --> 00:08:06,160 because it goes to this cast of characters. It's hard 149 00:08:06,199 --> 00:08:09,560 to believe just from memory. It wrote to a letter 150 00:08:09,639 --> 00:08:13,759 complaining that the FBI was harassing him because of his 151 00:08:13,920 --> 00:08:16,720 advocacy in the Colonial Parkray murders and that they were 152 00:08:16,759 --> 00:08:18,920 threatening they were going to deport him back to New Zealand, 153 00:08:18,959 --> 00:08:21,920 which they eventually did. But he also sent the letter 154 00:08:22,040 --> 00:08:27,879 to the United States Senators, Congress, people, to Oprah Oprah. 155 00:08:27,920 --> 00:08:30,199 Of course, I love the fact that the letter went 156 00:08:30,240 --> 00:08:33,919 to Oprah of all people, and just a bizarre cross 157 00:08:33,960 --> 00:08:38,320 section of nineteen eighties America, complaining that he was being 158 00:08:38,360 --> 00:08:42,279 harassed by the FBI for being this outspoken kind of whistleblower. 159 00:08:42,320 --> 00:08:48,600 Almost it's really bizarre behavior, without question. Eventually, by nineteen 160 00:08:48,720 --> 00:08:51,600 eighty nine, reading into it a little bit, but it 161 00:08:51,639 --> 00:08:54,919 almost sounds like the FBI had enough of Ron little 162 00:08:55,120 --> 00:08:59,039 and in looking into his background, they discovered that he 163 00:08:59,080 --> 00:09:03,200 had an extensive criminal background in New Zealand, his native country, 164 00:09:03,320 --> 00:09:07,440 and had probably entered the United States under false pretenses. 165 00:09:07,480 --> 00:09:10,159 Because you're supposed to answer these questions honestly, and they 166 00:09:10,200 --> 00:09:12,039 do ask you if you've ever been arrested or if 167 00:09:12,080 --> 00:09:15,799 you have a police record, which he did. Eventually, the 168 00:09:15,840 --> 00:09:18,559 FBI kind of went after a Little, And I don't 169 00:09:18,559 --> 00:09:21,480 think actually Little was completely wrong in saying the FBI 170 00:09:21,600 --> 00:09:24,200 was harassing him, because I think they were. He had 171 00:09:24,279 --> 00:09:27,039 become this kind of loud mouth claiming that he knew 172 00:09:27,080 --> 00:09:29,399 all these things about the murders and that we had 173 00:09:29,399 --> 00:09:33,399 this very strange connection, as we've discussed on mind Over Murder, 174 00:09:33,480 --> 00:09:36,919 where a number of these victims in the Colonial Parkway 175 00:09:37,000 --> 00:09:41,919 murders had connections to his security company, Liberty Security. So 176 00:09:42,120 --> 00:09:46,399 by August nineteen eighty nine, the FBI had questioned him, 177 00:09:46,799 --> 00:09:50,960 and then I think made a huge mistake by deporting 178 00:09:51,320 --> 00:09:54,879 Little back to his native New Zealand. The FBI and 179 00:09:54,919 --> 00:09:59,879 thes Immigration and Naturalization Service sent Little back to New Zealand. 180 00:10:00,480 --> 00:10:04,519 I think they made a serious error because I actually 181 00:10:04,559 --> 00:10:07,559 think they should have taken a much harder look at 182 00:10:07,639 --> 00:10:11,559 Ron Little for potential involvement in the Colonial Parkway murders. 183 00:10:12,240 --> 00:10:15,480 It's a bizarre story. Some of it might make you 184 00:10:15,600 --> 00:10:18,559 laugh because some of it's just so crazy why we're 185 00:10:18,559 --> 00:10:21,960 writing to Oprah. But at the same time, this is 186 00:10:22,000 --> 00:10:24,679 a series of unsolved murders. A number of them are 187 00:10:24,720 --> 00:10:27,759 still unsolved to this day. Just in the past few weeks, 188 00:10:27,799 --> 00:10:30,320 we've had what is more or less a solve in 189 00:10:30,399 --> 00:10:34,799 the Lorine Powell murder, linking her to Wilmer. Now you 190 00:10:34,840 --> 00:10:39,080 and I are exploring other potential linkages there as well, 191 00:10:39,279 --> 00:10:44,440 involving Ron Little. So it's a very weird story. I'm 192 00:10:44,480 --> 00:10:47,360 not saying we've never chuckled about it. When you step 193 00:10:47,440 --> 00:10:50,399 back and think about it, it probably isn't quite so funny. 194 00:10:51,039 --> 00:10:53,440 Speaker 3: I think it's important to mention that before he put 195 00:10:53,559 --> 00:10:57,000 himself on the radar, the FBI said, we've never heard 196 00:10:57,000 --> 00:10:59,159 of this guy. We were taking a look at some 197 00:10:59,240 --> 00:11:03,399 of our information that we have from Joyce called Canada's 198 00:11:03,480 --> 00:11:08,960 Father's Archives. Richard call really made sure that he took 199 00:11:09,039 --> 00:11:12,799 note of everything in the press regarding the Colonial Parkway murders. 200 00:11:12,919 --> 00:11:16,360 And he has this wonderful file that Joyce has kept 201 00:11:16,440 --> 00:11:20,080 up and it really is just like a timeline of 202 00:11:20,159 --> 00:11:24,120 everything related to the case. He's got some great articles 203 00:11:24,159 --> 00:11:26,639 in there about Ron Little, and in a number of 204 00:11:26,639 --> 00:11:29,480 those articles, the FBI agents in charge of the case said, 205 00:11:29,480 --> 00:11:31,799 we have never heard of this guy. If he's a suspect, 206 00:11:31,799 --> 00:11:35,200 that's news to us. Little had styled himself as the 207 00:11:35,240 --> 00:11:39,559 family spokesman for Brian Pattenger and for Lorin Powell, which 208 00:11:39,639 --> 00:11:42,799 again is odd when he set himself as the person 209 00:11:42,799 --> 00:11:46,080 who was going to investigate and solve them. The FBI 210 00:11:46,120 --> 00:11:50,360 wouldn't have been harassing him amusing their quotes there if 211 00:11:50,399 --> 00:11:52,799 he hadn't put himself in the middle of this thing 212 00:11:52,960 --> 00:11:56,279 in the first place. So it is very odd. The 213 00:11:56,320 --> 00:11:59,639 fact that he inserted himself in this investigation and then 214 00:11:59,679 --> 00:12:05,080 eventually ended up getting himself deported very interesting and definitely 215 00:12:05,120 --> 00:12:08,559 I think a connection that is worth looking into now. 216 00:12:08,799 --> 00:12:12,440 Robert asked us three more questions along the sort of 217 00:12:12,519 --> 00:12:14,840 train of thoughts, so let's go ahead and continue these 218 00:12:14,919 --> 00:12:17,879 before we move to others. Robert's third question is do 219 00:12:17,919 --> 00:12:20,679 you think homicide or sexual assault was the primary motive 220 00:12:20,720 --> 00:12:23,639 in the four cases tied to Wilmer so far? What 221 00:12:23,679 --> 00:12:27,279 do you make of Wilmer switching between solo females and couples. 222 00:12:27,519 --> 00:12:29,799 I actually want to give that one a shot, if 223 00:12:29,799 --> 00:12:31,519 that's all right with you, and then we'll kick it 224 00:12:31,559 --> 00:12:36,039 back your way. At this point, we have positive DNA 225 00:12:36,399 --> 00:12:42,919 linkages between Wilmer and Robin Edwards, Laurian Powell, and Teresa Howell. 226 00:12:43,440 --> 00:12:47,200 To my mind, that leads me to think that sexual 227 00:12:47,240 --> 00:12:50,720 assault was the primary motive in these cases so far. 228 00:12:51,399 --> 00:12:54,559 The fact that David was there as well at the 229 00:12:54,639 --> 00:12:58,399 time that he approached Robin may very well have just 230 00:12:58,519 --> 00:13:02,639 been another channel. Okay, I want to assault this girl, 231 00:13:02,679 --> 00:13:04,039 and I'm going to have to go through the guy 232 00:13:04,120 --> 00:13:08,000 to do it. But it seems to me that it 233 00:13:08,159 --> 00:13:11,919 seems like the primary motive in this case is sexual assault. 234 00:13:12,360 --> 00:13:14,759 As to what do I make of Wilmer switching between 235 00:13:14,799 --> 00:13:18,200 solo females and couples we talked about this last episode. 236 00:13:18,600 --> 00:13:21,879 I think Wilmer was willing to attack whoever was affording 237 00:13:22,000 --> 00:13:26,080 him the opportunity at that point. I am wondering if 238 00:13:26,240 --> 00:13:28,639 because Laurie was on her own and Terry was on 239 00:13:28,720 --> 00:13:32,600 her own, that was an easier target for him, and 240 00:13:33,039 --> 00:13:35,240 that maybe he was just willing to go through David 241 00:13:35,320 --> 00:13:38,360 to get to Robin. Bill, do you have any thoughts 242 00:13:38,399 --> 00:13:38,639 on that. 243 00:13:39,120 --> 00:13:41,960 Speaker 2: I'm going to disagree with you on some level. Cool, 244 00:13:42,039 --> 00:13:46,200 Let's not forget that Alan Wade Wilmer Sr. Is an 245 00:13:46,320 --> 00:13:51,759 avid hunter. He is a crack shot. He is also 246 00:13:52,039 --> 00:13:56,799 an championship archer. He won archery competitions. He's a hunter 247 00:13:57,000 --> 00:14:00,440 and he loves the woods and the water. And knows 248 00:14:00,639 --> 00:14:05,720 these areas backwards and forwards. I think that Alan Wade 249 00:14:05,720 --> 00:14:11,000 Wilmer Senior liked a challenge Joseph DiAngelo, the Golden State 250 00:14:11,159 --> 00:14:15,360 Killer and others. He escalates, so I think he may 251 00:14:15,639 --> 00:14:19,519 be opportunistic in that if he sees a woman, and 252 00:14:19,720 --> 00:14:22,360 let's remember we talked about this last time, I think 253 00:14:22,440 --> 00:14:27,320 Lorient Powell and Teresa Howell were both somewhat inebriated, they'd 254 00:14:27,320 --> 00:14:30,440 been drinking. Their judgment might not have been the best. 255 00:14:30,679 --> 00:14:33,559 They were both known to hitchhike by the way, and 256 00:14:33,799 --> 00:14:36,919 Teresa was having car trouble the weekend that she was 257 00:14:37,080 --> 00:14:41,759 assaulted and killed. We know that Loriane Powell was pretty fearless. 258 00:14:42,080 --> 00:14:45,279 She knew a lot of people in Gloucester. She often 259 00:14:45,360 --> 00:14:47,480 hit strides and then of course a lot of times 260 00:14:47,559 --> 00:14:50,799 small town people would come along and if Loorie was there, 261 00:14:51,000 --> 00:14:52,919 they would see her, they would stop, they would give 262 00:14:52,960 --> 00:14:54,919 her a ride if they were headed in that direction. 263 00:14:55,519 --> 00:15:00,399 I think Wilmer might have enjoyed the escalation of going 264 00:15:00,440 --> 00:15:05,200 after couples, just a challenge of it, and attacking two 265 00:15:05,240 --> 00:15:08,440 people and controlling two people, as we've talked about on 266 00:15:08,480 --> 00:15:12,679 the podcast before, is a significant challenge, and I think 267 00:15:12,759 --> 00:15:15,480 he may have wanted to see can I do this? 268 00:15:16,159 --> 00:15:19,000 If we go back to Kathy and Becky, the first 269 00:15:19,120 --> 00:15:22,320 victims in the Colonial Parkway murders, there's a struggle. Kathy 270 00:15:22,480 --> 00:15:27,080 clearly struggled with their attacker. Yeah. Could he have gone 271 00:15:27,159 --> 00:15:31,000 up to two women in a car and attacked them? Absolutely, 272 00:15:31,519 --> 00:15:35,759 these other situations, certainly, as far as we know, these 273 00:15:35,759 --> 00:15:38,799 couples are either traveling in a car or parked in 274 00:15:38,840 --> 00:15:44,759 a car, are approached by Wilmer. That may heighten his excitement. 275 00:15:45,039 --> 00:15:47,519 And this is something that our friends Fits and Ray, 276 00:15:48,000 --> 00:15:51,879 both former FBI profilers, We're telling us that this may 277 00:15:51,919 --> 00:15:56,200 be part of this escalation where you know, he's killed 278 00:15:56,360 --> 00:15:59,080 single women, and then he'll also think to himself, I 279 00:15:59,080 --> 00:16:02,799 could take on a car, I could control this couple. 280 00:16:03,200 --> 00:16:08,120 And remember this isn't necessarily just about sex. Yeah, as 281 00:16:08,159 --> 00:16:11,240 our friends like Laura Richards, Jim Clementi and others have 282 00:16:11,360 --> 00:16:15,039 said to us, it's about power and control. Yep, exactly, 283 00:16:15,240 --> 00:16:20,480 I guess. Look sexualities mixed in here. Yes, for sure. 284 00:16:20,799 --> 00:16:24,840 We know that Wilmer was married and his wife broke 285 00:16:24,919 --> 00:16:28,080 up with him, left him. We know that Wilmer had 286 00:16:28,120 --> 00:16:32,039 a girlfriend in Williamsburg, and that she broke up with 287 00:16:32,159 --> 00:16:36,440 him and then married another man shortly thereafter. Could these 288 00:16:36,559 --> 00:16:42,279 be precipitating events that helped drive him to this lashing 289 00:16:42,320 --> 00:16:46,799 out in this way, murdering both women and couples. Years ago, 290 00:16:47,120 --> 00:16:50,759 when the Colonial Parkeray murders were first happening, FBI and 291 00:16:50,840 --> 00:16:54,399 Virginia State Police profilers talked about the fact that they 292 00:16:54,440 --> 00:16:58,279 thought the killer or killers might be someone who hated romance, 293 00:16:58,440 --> 00:17:02,399 or hated couples, or hated sexuality, because you think about 294 00:17:02,480 --> 00:17:06,799 a couple parked in cars engaging in romantic or sexual behavior. 295 00:17:07,279 --> 00:17:11,519 These breakups that took place in Wilmer's life where his 296 00:17:11,720 --> 00:17:15,240 wife left him several years later, his girlfriend left him 297 00:17:15,319 --> 00:17:19,519 for another man, and this could really grind on a guy. 298 00:17:19,559 --> 00:17:22,039 These things could be the kind of things that pushed 299 00:17:22,119 --> 00:17:26,480 him over the edge into this kind of heinous behavior 300 00:17:26,519 --> 00:17:27,599 that he was engaged in. 301 00:17:28,039 --> 00:17:30,400 Speaker 3: It could very will be. I also think it's a 302 00:17:30,400 --> 00:17:33,599 good idea to just remind people that because he has not, 303 00:17:33,880 --> 00:17:36,799 to our knowledge, left journals, notes, or anything else, we're 304 00:17:36,839 --> 00:17:39,599 never really going to know motive for him. I'm always 305 00:17:39,640 --> 00:17:44,400 a little hesitant to ascribe motive just because human psychology 306 00:17:44,519 --> 00:17:46,920 is fluid in a lot of ways. I think even 307 00:17:47,079 --> 00:17:51,359 fitz and Ray would maybe hesitate on a signing motive 308 00:17:51,519 --> 00:17:54,400 to somebody like Wilmer if they weren't able to talk 309 00:17:54,440 --> 00:17:57,319 to him or see any of his writings. But I 310 00:17:57,480 --> 00:18:00,720 think what you said is there's very like is some 311 00:18:00,839 --> 00:18:03,839 truth to that. And you'll notice that for long time 312 00:18:03,960 --> 00:18:06,519 listeners and new ones too, you'll notice that we don't 313 00:18:06,559 --> 00:18:09,440 always have to agree with each other on every aspect 314 00:18:09,640 --> 00:18:13,319 of a case. I think that once we learn more 315 00:18:13,319 --> 00:18:16,240 about Wilmer, and once more comes out about his crimes, 316 00:18:16,279 --> 00:18:18,599 we may have a better idea about how to answer that. 317 00:18:19,359 --> 00:18:21,839 We don't always have to agree. And that's one hundred 318 00:18:21,920 --> 00:18:26,240 percent fine. The next question from Robert again gets right 319 00:18:26,279 --> 00:18:28,960 into the heart of what we just talked about. He says, 320 00:18:28,960 --> 00:18:32,039 if Wilmer's found responsible for Brian Pettinger's murder, how does 321 00:18:32,079 --> 00:18:35,160 this make you rethink potential motive killing a single male 322 00:18:35,200 --> 00:18:37,640 would be an outlier compared to these other cases where 323 00:18:37,640 --> 00:18:40,440 a female and sexual assault is involved and the only 324 00:18:40,480 --> 00:18:43,319 male victims are within the context of a couple. Is 325 00:18:43,319 --> 00:18:46,799 there evidence that Wilmer's sexually targeted female and male victims? 326 00:18:46,920 --> 00:18:49,640 Has this angle been explored. I think the only thing 327 00:18:49,640 --> 00:18:51,839 we can come up with this one is supposition, because 328 00:18:51,880 --> 00:18:54,480 we don't know what's been going on inside the investigation 329 00:18:54,559 --> 00:18:55,640 into Brian Pettinger. 330 00:18:56,359 --> 00:18:59,480 Speaker 2: I think Brian Pettinger's murder has everything to do with 331 00:18:59,599 --> 00:19:04,960 Liberty Security. He worked at Liberty Security. If Pettinger's murder 332 00:19:05,000 --> 00:19:07,240 is solved, then we hope that it is. I think 333 00:19:07,279 --> 00:19:11,000 Brian Pettinser's murder has something to do with his employment 334 00:19:11,079 --> 00:19:15,319 at Liberty Security, much in the same way. I think 335 00:19:15,480 --> 00:19:18,920 we can no longer ignore the fact that three of 336 00:19:18,920 --> 00:19:23,440 our four victims currently identified are linked to Liberty Security. 337 00:19:23,480 --> 00:19:28,880 The only one that's not is Teresa Howell Pettinger's murder, 338 00:19:28,920 --> 00:19:32,880 which is so remarkably similar to the murder of Lorianne Powell. 339 00:19:33,440 --> 00:19:37,440 I remind everybody she also worked at Liberty Security. This 340 00:19:37,640 --> 00:19:43,119 feels inevitable. I don't think that Brian Pettinger's murder as 341 00:19:43,160 --> 00:19:45,680 a result of a sexual assault. I'm not saying he 342 00:19:45,799 --> 00:19:49,160 wasn't sexually assaulted. I don't know. I think there's a 343 00:19:49,440 --> 00:19:54,599 strong possibility that Pettinger's murder is linked to Liberty Security, 344 00:19:54,799 --> 00:19:55,599 without question. 345 00:19:56,039 --> 00:19:59,279 Speaker 3: I agree. And then Robert's final question, this is this 346 00:19:59,359 --> 00:20:01,599 is an interesting I like this, If you could do 347 00:20:01,680 --> 00:20:05,920 a ride along with any true crime investigator, forensic specialist, psychologist, 348 00:20:06,000 --> 00:20:09,079 or professional that you've had on the podcast and shadow 349 00:20:09,160 --> 00:20:11,319 them for a day, who would it be? 350 00:20:11,599 --> 00:20:14,559 Speaker 2: Oh man, I think each one of us would want 351 00:20:14,640 --> 00:20:17,480 to answer that. That's a tough one. We've had so 352 00:20:17,599 --> 00:20:22,119 many amazing people on the podcast, and we still always 353 00:20:22,200 --> 00:20:25,359 have a list of people that we'd like to get. 354 00:20:25,960 --> 00:20:31,400 John Douglas, a former FBI profiler. We've met mister Douglas, 355 00:20:31,400 --> 00:20:34,720 We've had our pictures taken with mister Douglas. We sat 356 00:20:34,759 --> 00:20:38,279 in like the third row of a packed auditorium at 357 00:20:38,319 --> 00:20:41,279 Crime Con when he spoke. First of all, he was brilliant, 358 00:20:41,440 --> 00:20:44,920 and he was hysterically funny, which I hadn't anticipated. And 359 00:20:44,960 --> 00:20:47,960 we've read his books and we know his co author. 360 00:20:48,839 --> 00:20:51,440 I might go with John Douglas, But who would you 361 00:20:51,519 --> 00:20:51,839 go with? 362 00:20:52,640 --> 00:20:56,440 Speaker 3: Yeah, my original thought was John because he's really the 363 00:20:56,519 --> 00:21:00,640 person who cut me into true crime and profiling. It 364 00:21:00,720 --> 00:21:03,799 is a real case of a hero worship for me, really, 365 00:21:04,240 --> 00:21:07,240 any of our profiling friends, though, I would love to 366 00:21:07,359 --> 00:21:11,519 do a one hundred percent let's sit down and work 367 00:21:11,640 --> 00:21:14,960 this case start to finish for me, it would be 368 00:21:15,240 --> 00:21:20,960 really any profiler, so Lara Richards, Jim Clemente, Jim Fitzgerald, 369 00:21:21,039 --> 00:21:24,240 Ray Carr, John Douglas, and at this point too, I 370 00:21:24,279 --> 00:21:27,559 would say Marco Ohlshaker knows enough about profiling from working 371 00:21:27,599 --> 00:21:29,400 with John that I want to sit down and just 372 00:21:29,440 --> 00:21:31,720 have a cool And it really is interesting because I've 373 00:21:31,759 --> 00:21:34,319 met all of these people. I work with all of 374 00:21:34,359 --> 00:21:37,240 these people, but I really want to have an actual 375 00:21:37,559 --> 00:21:41,200 let's go to the FBI Academy sit down at one 376 00:21:41,200 --> 00:21:44,279 of the worktables. I'm desperate to go to the FBI Academy. 377 00:21:44,319 --> 00:21:48,400 You guys can idea, you have no idea, Like the best, 378 00:21:48,680 --> 00:21:51,240 the most amazing thing that could ever happen to me 379 00:21:51,279 --> 00:21:53,880 with getting a trip to the FBI Academy and being 380 00:21:53,880 --> 00:21:55,720 able to run the Yellow Brook Road. If somebody can 381 00:21:55,759 --> 00:21:57,319 make that happen, Please make it happen. 382 00:21:57,400 --> 00:21:59,400 Speaker 2: I think happen no pessure. 383 00:22:00,119 --> 00:22:02,039 Speaker 3: But it has to, it has to. But yeah, and 384 00:22:02,079 --> 00:22:05,519 I think it's just because the profiling aspect of it, 385 00:22:05,720 --> 00:22:07,720 the one part of all of this that I can 386 00:22:07,759 --> 00:22:11,119 really get behind. I can't do blood and guts, so 387 00:22:11,200 --> 00:22:14,119 I could never hang out with somebody like doctor Boden 388 00:22:14,200 --> 00:22:17,839 or a forensic specialist. It would be awful. I don't 389 00:22:17,880 --> 00:22:21,440 know that I would be able to really hold my 390 00:22:21,519 --> 00:22:24,319 own at a crime scene, so hanging out with Mac 391 00:22:24,440 --> 00:22:27,119 for a day would be It would be cool, but 392 00:22:27,200 --> 00:22:29,400 I know that I'd be able to handle it very well. 393 00:22:29,480 --> 00:22:30,960 Speaker 2: Oh, I would do that in a heartbeat. 394 00:22:31,440 --> 00:22:33,839 Speaker 3: I really think it would have to be one of 395 00:22:33,880 --> 00:22:36,400 my profiling friends, because that's the part that I think 396 00:22:36,400 --> 00:22:38,319 I'm equipped to handle. Give me a little bit of 397 00:22:38,359 --> 00:22:41,039 training and tell me where I'm going wrong with some 398 00:22:41,079 --> 00:22:45,119 of my suppositions and help me become a better understanding 399 00:22:45,319 --> 00:22:47,880 person when it comes to psychology. That would be it. 400 00:22:47,920 --> 00:22:50,799 I would love a ride along or work along with 401 00:22:50,839 --> 00:22:53,079 any of our profiling friends, as long as we can 402 00:22:53,119 --> 00:22:54,279 do it at the FAI Academy. 403 00:22:54,559 --> 00:22:57,960 Speaker 2: All Right, Just so we're clear here, We've had John 404 00:22:58,000 --> 00:23:02,359 Douglas's co author Mark Olshaker on the podcast a couple 405 00:23:02,359 --> 00:23:05,119 of times, and he's always welcome to come back because 406 00:23:05,119 --> 00:23:07,839 he's so interesting. But I think even he would push 407 00:23:07,960 --> 00:23:10,599 back politely because he's that kind of guy that he's 408 00:23:10,680 --> 00:23:14,640 not an FBI trained profiler, but he has worked with 409 00:23:15,000 --> 00:23:19,160 one of the guys that helped develop the modern profiling unit, 410 00:23:19,359 --> 00:23:22,839 the Bau and I'd be real open to sitting down 411 00:23:22,839 --> 00:23:25,119 with any of these folks, and we really consider it 412 00:23:25,200 --> 00:23:27,599 a privilege just to be able to ask them questions 413 00:23:27,640 --> 00:23:28,599 and listen and learn. 414 00:23:29,359 --> 00:23:32,559 Speaker 3: Oh, I got one hundred and ten percent, one hundred 415 00:23:32,559 --> 00:23:35,559 and twenty percent. Even we're out here trying to do 416 00:23:35,680 --> 00:23:38,440 good work. I think sometimes we're doing great work and 417 00:23:38,480 --> 00:23:41,519 other times I'm not entirely sure that we're moving the needle. 418 00:23:42,039 --> 00:23:45,440 Those are people who have really gone out there. They've 419 00:23:45,480 --> 00:23:49,440 done the work, They've changed people's lives, they've saved people's lives. 420 00:23:49,920 --> 00:23:51,920 Those are the people that want to hang out with 421 00:23:52,079 --> 00:23:52,680 and get to know. 422 00:23:54,119 --> 00:23:56,799 Speaker 2: You're listening to Mind over Murder. We'll be right back 423 00:23:57,079 --> 00:24:04,400 after this word from our sponsors. We're back here at 424 00:24:04,400 --> 00:24:05,279 mindover Murder. 425 00:24:06,960 --> 00:24:09,440 Speaker 3: Let's see, we're going to skip back over to Colonial 426 00:24:09,519 --> 00:24:14,960 Parkway murders. This is a question from Holly who asks 427 00:24:15,200 --> 00:24:19,000 what do you think the possible sequence of events or 428 00:24:19,119 --> 00:24:23,200 logistics were in the Call Haley case? Where do you 429 00:24:23,319 --> 00:24:25,319 think they might have been accosted. 430 00:24:25,839 --> 00:24:29,200 Speaker 2: I think they were accosted at or very close to 431 00:24:29,279 --> 00:24:32,880 the party. I agreed at Christopher Newport University at the 432 00:24:33,039 --> 00:24:36,440 University Square apartments, which are long gone. We heard from 433 00:24:36,480 --> 00:24:39,000 some people, and over the years I've talked to a 434 00:24:39,200 --> 00:24:42,160 number of people that were there at the party. You 435 00:24:42,240 --> 00:24:45,720 got to remember, this is multiple apartments, a lot of 436 00:24:45,759 --> 00:24:49,839 young people coming in, going, people having a lot of fun. 437 00:24:50,119 --> 00:24:54,240 A party held at those apartments, which was mostly college kids, 438 00:24:54,279 --> 00:24:58,839 didn't necessarily happen in only one location. People would wander 439 00:24:58,960 --> 00:25:01,720 down the hall and pop into another apartment where the 440 00:25:01,799 --> 00:25:04,680 door was open, and it'd be kegs of beer and 441 00:25:04,720 --> 00:25:07,319 people were having a really good time. As a result, 442 00:25:07,480 --> 00:25:09,920 a lot of people would come and go over the 443 00:25:09,960 --> 00:25:12,559 course of the evening. Some people have told us that 444 00:25:12,599 --> 00:25:16,599 there were one or two older men who attended those 445 00:25:16,720 --> 00:25:19,920 parties that night. I should probably say parties plural. And 446 00:25:19,960 --> 00:25:23,680 remember these are eighteen to twenty one year old kids basically, 447 00:25:24,319 --> 00:25:28,559 so somebody that was thirty plus would be older to them. 448 00:25:28,799 --> 00:25:32,359 And there's these odd stories we've heard about the possibility 449 00:25:32,400 --> 00:25:35,319 that there was an older man at these parties that 450 00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:39,880 night who had a snake. Now Ron Little is really 451 00:25:40,039 --> 00:25:44,079 into snakes, which is odd whatever, And he was a 452 00:25:44,279 --> 00:25:47,720 very big show off. He was always trying to be 453 00:25:47,799 --> 00:25:51,960 the center of attention, attract attention to himself, always hitting 454 00:25:52,039 --> 00:25:57,079 on young and even underage girls in his capacity at 455 00:25:57,119 --> 00:26:00,319 Liberty Security. So this story that we've heard that there 456 00:26:00,400 --> 00:26:03,240 might have been an older man or older men plural 457 00:26:03,359 --> 00:26:06,559 at these parties that night, possibly with a snake. And 458 00:26:06,599 --> 00:26:09,519 then we have a picture of Ron Little with a 459 00:26:09,559 --> 00:26:12,519 snake around his shoulders, which this must be like a 460 00:26:12,519 --> 00:26:13,359 Boa constriction. 461 00:26:13,359 --> 00:26:16,240 Speaker 3: It's a huge snake. Yeah, it's like a Boa constrictor. 462 00:26:16,799 --> 00:26:19,960 Speaker 2: I think this is super creepy. From my perspective, that 463 00:26:20,200 --> 00:26:23,920 possibility is very real. First of all, I want to 464 00:26:23,960 --> 00:26:26,839 express my disappointment that I've talked to a number of 465 00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:29,880 people that were there at the party that night where 466 00:26:30,000 --> 00:26:32,559 Keith and Sandy were last seen. I think they were 467 00:26:32,599 --> 00:26:36,839 accosted there. My disappointment is that I was shocked at 468 00:26:36,880 --> 00:26:39,440 how many people who were there at the party were 469 00:26:39,480 --> 00:26:42,799 never interviewed by the FBI. Now, this is an FBI 470 00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:46,799 case because Keith and Sandy disappeared along the Colonial Parkway 471 00:26:46,799 --> 00:26:50,160 and the FBI asserted jurisdiction, but they didn't seem to 472 00:26:50,200 --> 00:26:52,960 ever interview all the people that were at the party. 473 00:26:53,000 --> 00:26:56,319 And this is the last place that those young people, 474 00:26:56,480 --> 00:26:59,960 Keith and Sandy were seen. Lisa Brown, who was one 475 00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:02,880 of the people who was scheduled to be interviewed by 476 00:27:02,960 --> 00:27:06,079 the FBI, said the FBI agent was a no show, 477 00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:08,880 stood her up and never she never met him, and 478 00:27:08,920 --> 00:27:13,000 then they never rescheduled her interview, and she was talking 479 00:27:13,240 --> 00:27:17,000 to Keith Called for hours that night in the kitchen 480 00:27:17,240 --> 00:27:20,200 of the apartment. He was singing the blues about his 481 00:27:20,279 --> 00:27:24,319 temporary breakup with his then girlfriend. Remember Sandy is his 482 00:27:24,519 --> 00:27:28,079 classmate on a first date, so they weren't necessarily any 483 00:27:28,160 --> 00:27:31,160 kind of serious couple. He was actually seeing his high 484 00:27:31,160 --> 00:27:34,079 school girlfriend for years. Then they had gone to separate 485 00:27:34,160 --> 00:27:37,480 colleges and they were on a temporary, short term break. 486 00:27:37,599 --> 00:27:39,279 And the Call family has told us they think they 487 00:27:39,279 --> 00:27:42,039 would have probably gotten back together because they were pretty 488 00:27:42,079 --> 00:27:45,200 serious couple for a number of years. When you find 489 00:27:45,200 --> 00:27:48,680 out from Lisa that she chatted with Keith for the 490 00:27:48,680 --> 00:27:51,359 better part of the evening and the FBI stood her 491 00:27:51,480 --> 00:27:53,920 up for her interview. So she's still to this day 492 00:27:54,240 --> 00:27:58,400 never been interviewed by the responsible agency who were looking 493 00:27:58,480 --> 00:28:01,920 into his disappearance. And I find that incredibly frustrating. 494 00:28:02,359 --> 00:28:06,240 Speaker 3: Yeah, very odd. Let's see here, hold on, I'm trying 495 00:28:06,240 --> 00:28:09,880 to find out of our questions. Okay, So let's asks 496 00:28:10,119 --> 00:28:13,039 has there been a good reason given as to why 497 00:28:13,079 --> 00:28:16,960 the FBI would throw away Kathy and Becky's rape kits. 498 00:28:17,240 --> 00:28:19,960 Was it procedure, Was it an accident? Or is there 499 00:28:20,079 --> 00:28:22,039 more to this part of the story. 500 00:28:22,519 --> 00:28:26,799 Speaker 2: Oh hell no, It's definitely quite deliberate on their part. Okay, 501 00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:31,119 let's recap as we understand it, Kathy and Becky were 502 00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:35,599 both given rape kits at their autopsies. Based on the 503 00:28:35,640 --> 00:28:39,240 standards of nineteen eighty six, it does not appear that 504 00:28:39,279 --> 00:28:42,880 my sister Kathy or her girlfriend Rebecca were raped. Eight 505 00:28:43,079 --> 00:28:47,920 years later, the York Pocosin County Sheriff's Department was working 506 00:28:48,119 --> 00:28:52,839 on a rape case that they were moving towards trial. 507 00:28:53,279 --> 00:28:58,599 This case required evidence which was currently in the evidence 508 00:28:58,680 --> 00:29:03,079 locker at FBI Norfolk. They requested this evidence in this 509 00:29:03,279 --> 00:29:06,160 other unrelated rape I think it was a rape murder case. 510 00:29:06,440 --> 00:29:09,720 It was sent over. When the evidence clerk at York 511 00:29:09,759 --> 00:29:14,519 Pekoson County Sheriff's Department opened up the bag with these 512 00:29:14,640 --> 00:29:18,079 various items in it, they noticed that, in addition to 513 00:29:18,279 --> 00:29:22,319 the evidence that they had requested, Kathy Thomas and Rebeccadowski's 514 00:29:22,400 --> 00:29:26,039 rape kits were included with the other evidence. It doesn't 515 00:29:26,039 --> 00:29:28,519 mean the evidence was blended. Everything was in its own 516 00:29:28,559 --> 00:29:32,319 little packages. The clerk, as I understand it, reached back 517 00:29:32,400 --> 00:29:36,279 out to the evidence clerk at FBI Norfolk and said, 518 00:29:36,440 --> 00:29:40,079 you sent over evidence from the Thomas Sdowski case. We 519 00:29:40,160 --> 00:29:42,240 didn't ask for that, We asked for this other stuff. 520 00:29:42,279 --> 00:29:46,559 So FBI evidence clerk asks York Pecoson County evidence clerk 521 00:29:46,640 --> 00:29:49,480 to put the evidence aside in their evidence lock up. 522 00:29:49,759 --> 00:29:52,480 And then, as I understand it, it ends up being 523 00:29:52,480 --> 00:29:57,079 a bureaucratic pissing contest. FBI wants York Pekoson County to 524 00:29:57,240 --> 00:30:00,799 run the evidence back over to the FBI off York 525 00:30:00,799 --> 00:30:03,759 Precosson County says something along the lines of you guys 526 00:30:03,759 --> 00:30:06,319 are the ones that made the mistake. You send somebody 527 00:30:06,319 --> 00:30:09,160 over here to pick up the evidence. So they got 528 00:30:09,160 --> 00:30:13,640 into this pissing contest and the evidence just sat. Finally, 529 00:30:13,880 --> 00:30:18,599 after some time had elapsed, the FBI sent a letter 530 00:30:18,960 --> 00:30:23,039 via fact I know the letter exists, and they ordered 531 00:30:23,279 --> 00:30:28,759 York Pecoson County to destroy Kathy Thomas and Rebecca Dowski's 532 00:30:28,960 --> 00:30:32,680 rape kits, which York Pacoson County included it in what 533 00:30:32,720 --> 00:30:35,920 they call a burn bag, and that evidence was burned 534 00:30:36,079 --> 00:30:39,960 as medical waste. I talked to the Commonwealth of Virginia 535 00:30:40,279 --> 00:30:44,599 Chief Medical Examiner Marcella Fierro, who was absolutely wonderful, really 536 00:30:44,720 --> 00:30:47,720 nice lady. But she said, mister Thomas, my understanding is 537 00:30:47,720 --> 00:30:50,559 that your sister and Missdowski were not raped. She said, 538 00:30:50,839 --> 00:30:55,319 you never know what test will come along in twenty ten. 539 00:30:55,680 --> 00:30:59,000 Keeping in mind we're having this conversation around November two 540 00:30:59,039 --> 00:31:01,960 thousand and nine. He said, you never know what test 541 00:31:02,039 --> 00:31:04,440 will come along in twenty ten that will be much 542 00:31:04,480 --> 00:31:09,119 more refined and might be able to extract DNA evidence 543 00:31:09,359 --> 00:31:13,000 from your sister in Missdowski's rape kits. And she said, 544 00:31:13,160 --> 00:31:18,759 even failing that those would have represented super clean DNA 545 00:31:18,920 --> 00:31:23,000 samples for comparison purposes at any point during the course 546 00:31:23,000 --> 00:31:25,960 of the investigation. And she told me flat out, she said, 547 00:31:26,119 --> 00:31:30,519 I don't care what the FBI says. Now, they're lying. 548 00:31:31,119 --> 00:31:34,400 She said, for them to say your sister and Missdowski's 549 00:31:34,480 --> 00:31:38,279 rape kits were of no value and it doesn't matter 550 00:31:38,359 --> 00:31:42,000 because they weren't sexually assaulted, she said, that's not true. 551 00:31:42,079 --> 00:31:45,559 That's a lie. She said, you never ever throw away 552 00:31:45,559 --> 00:31:48,079 evidence in an unsolved murder case. And I said, did 553 00:31:48,119 --> 00:31:49,920 they take up a lot of room. And she said, 554 00:31:50,000 --> 00:31:53,240 imagine if you ordered business cards and they come in 555 00:31:53,279 --> 00:31:56,400 a little box roughly the size of two cigarette packs, 556 00:31:56,640 --> 00:31:59,400 and now they fit in an envelope, so they fit 557 00:31:59,440 --> 00:32:01,480 on shelves a little bit more easily. But she said 558 00:32:01,519 --> 00:32:03,680 it didn't take up a lot of room. And she said, 559 00:32:03,720 --> 00:32:06,480 and they absolutely should have been sent back. And it 560 00:32:06,519 --> 00:32:09,640 doesn't matter whether FBI picks them up or York, because 561 00:32:09,720 --> 00:32:12,359 in the county drops them off. She said, what they're 562 00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:15,759 telling you is not true. And I know they don't 563 00:32:15,799 --> 00:32:18,480 like to throw their law enforcement partners under the bus, 564 00:32:18,720 --> 00:32:20,799 but they also knew they were lying to me, and 565 00:32:20,920 --> 00:32:23,559 I called them out on it publicly. To this day, 566 00:32:23,680 --> 00:32:26,480 I have never heard an adequate explanation. And it seems 567 00:32:26,480 --> 00:32:31,279 like the FBI is completely incapable of ever admitting fault 568 00:32:31,440 --> 00:32:34,400 or mistake. Heaven forbid. I wouldn't expect them to say 569 00:32:34,480 --> 00:32:38,400 I'm sorry, at least admit it shouldn't have happened, We're 570 00:32:38,480 --> 00:32:41,720 sorry that it happened, and let's move forward, but they 571 00:32:41,799 --> 00:32:45,160 won't even do that. I know that's a long answer 572 00:32:45,200 --> 00:32:48,279 to the question, but it was really a bureaucratic foul up, 573 00:32:48,319 --> 00:32:49,839 and it should have never happened. 574 00:32:50,160 --> 00:32:51,640 Speaker 3: I don't even want to call it a foul up. 575 00:32:51,759 --> 00:32:53,799 Let's call it what it was, because you said it exactly. 576 00:32:53,799 --> 00:32:58,680 It was a pissing contest between two jurisdictions and York 577 00:32:58,680 --> 00:33:01,480 because we should not have listened in the FBI, said Burnett. 578 00:33:01,519 --> 00:33:04,160 They shouldn't have. Somebody should have had the integrity to go, 579 00:33:04,200 --> 00:33:06,240 you know what that in a murder investigation, we shouldn't. 580 00:33:06,319 --> 00:33:09,559 But really, the FI has more culpability here. And while 581 00:33:09,599 --> 00:33:13,880 we're on the subject of FBI culpability, because it always 582 00:33:13,960 --> 00:33:17,720 bears repeating, let's just make sure that we're aware how 583 00:33:17,799 --> 00:33:22,720 many screwups the FBI has committed in this case. Oh no, 584 00:33:22,920 --> 00:33:24,400 I know, but I'm going to do it this time 585 00:33:24,440 --> 00:33:27,079 because I want to feel righteously angry about it. You 586 00:33:27,200 --> 00:33:30,759 just recounted one of them. The FBI ordered their rape 587 00:33:30,799 --> 00:33:34,039 kids burned as medical waste. Big No. Number one. Number two, 588 00:33:34,400 --> 00:33:39,599 they lost control of seventy highly graphic crime scene photos 589 00:33:39,960 --> 00:33:43,880 allowed those to be released. That is also a foul 590 00:33:43,960 --> 00:33:46,759 up that should never have happened because the FBI couldn't 591 00:33:46,799 --> 00:33:49,720 keep control of them. That's number two. Number three. They 592 00:33:49,759 --> 00:33:53,680 had Alan Wade Wilmer in their sites as their primary 593 00:33:53,759 --> 00:33:58,079 suspect in nineteen eighty eight in the disappearance and probable 594 00:33:58,160 --> 00:34:01,720 murders of keep Calcusator Hailey, and they let him go 595 00:34:01,920 --> 00:34:04,839 and as a direct result of that, Terry Howell is dead. 596 00:34:05,400 --> 00:34:07,799 There is no getting around that one. So that's three 597 00:34:07,839 --> 00:34:10,039 screw ups on the part of the FBI. And I'll 598 00:34:10,079 --> 00:34:12,599 go ahead and add a fourth to what you said 599 00:34:12,639 --> 00:34:14,840 a little bit earlier. The FBI should have taken a 600 00:34:14,840 --> 00:34:17,440 harder look at round little before they shipped him back 601 00:34:17,480 --> 00:34:20,519 out to New Zealand, where we know that he went 602 00:34:20,599 --> 00:34:24,760 on to a life of crime, drug dealing, and various 603 00:34:24,800 --> 00:34:28,239 other things. There are four screw ups here from the FBI, 604 00:34:28,760 --> 00:34:32,199 and there's probably more, and there are probably more. Again, 605 00:34:32,280 --> 00:34:34,880 for anybody who is either new to the podcast or 606 00:34:34,880 --> 00:34:36,880 who thinks that maybe we're being a little too tough 607 00:34:36,880 --> 00:34:39,840 on the FBI, you just heard four reasons why we 608 00:34:39,960 --> 00:34:43,480 are not being too tough on the FBI. And that's 609 00:34:43,519 --> 00:34:45,639 also if you want to go down the conspiracy theory 610 00:34:45,719 --> 00:34:48,280 rabbit hole. I thought, so, four good reasons why they 611 00:34:48,360 --> 00:34:49,800 might not want this case solved. 612 00:34:50,320 --> 00:34:53,800 Speaker 2: At this point, it's clear that the Colonial Parkway murders 613 00:34:53,920 --> 00:34:57,239 is a massive embarrassment for the FBI. And I'm going 614 00:34:57,320 --> 00:34:59,519 to point out something that ought to be obvious, but 615 00:34:59,559 --> 00:35:01,400 I'm not sure sure that it will be to everyone. 616 00:35:01,760 --> 00:35:05,599 Notice how the Virginia State Police are still working this case, 617 00:35:05,880 --> 00:35:08,320 and we've got to give them a lot of credit. 618 00:35:08,440 --> 00:35:11,920 I've criticized the Virginia State Police more than once on 619 00:35:12,039 --> 00:35:16,079 various aspects of the Colonial Parkway murders investigation. But who's 620 00:35:16,119 --> 00:35:20,480 moving this investigation forward, Who's applying for the Sexual Assault 621 00:35:20,599 --> 00:35:24,679 Kit Initiative sake Grant's Virginia State Police. And then we 622 00:35:24,679 --> 00:35:28,239 were literally begging the Virginia State Police about five years 623 00:35:28,239 --> 00:35:32,400 ago to please test the last bit of remaining evidence 624 00:35:32,519 --> 00:35:35,519 from the Robin Edwards rape kit. We knew it was 625 00:35:35,559 --> 00:35:39,199 a long shot. We knew that the evidence was highly degraded, 626 00:35:39,360 --> 00:35:41,960 and it was a very small amount of DNA left 627 00:35:42,039 --> 00:35:45,199 after previous tests had consumed some of the evidence in 628 00:35:45,320 --> 00:35:49,559 Robin's rape kit. God love them, they actually took the chance, 629 00:35:49,880 --> 00:35:53,440 applied for the grant, sent it down to DNA Labs International, 630 00:35:53,559 --> 00:35:56,519 and they got a hit and that led directly to 631 00:35:56,760 --> 00:36:01,039 Robin Edwards, David Nobling, and then Teresa Howell murders all 632 00:36:01,079 --> 00:36:04,800 being solved and now I've expressed some frustration as to 633 00:36:04,880 --> 00:36:07,159 why it took two and a half years to get 634 00:36:07,199 --> 00:36:10,719 around to applying for a Osaki grant and sending the 635 00:36:10,760 --> 00:36:15,559 evidence in Lorian Powell's rape kit. And Peter Dujardin in 636 00:36:15,639 --> 00:36:18,920 the Daily Press did an excellent article that just broke 637 00:36:18,960 --> 00:36:22,079 a couple of days ago that talked about how the 638 00:36:22,599 --> 00:36:25,920 Compton and Powell families were not aware of the fact 639 00:36:26,000 --> 00:36:29,639 that Lorian Powell had been raped, but they were informed 640 00:36:29,719 --> 00:36:32,840 some months back that they were applying for Asaki grant 641 00:36:32,840 --> 00:36:35,239 and they were going to continue to be working that case. 642 00:36:35,960 --> 00:36:39,239 While we're seeing this slow but steady progress by the 643 00:36:39,320 --> 00:36:43,079 Virginia State Police, I will remind everybody we are hearing 644 00:36:43,400 --> 00:36:48,320 literally nothing from the FBI. They call me once a 645 00:36:48,400 --> 00:36:50,320 month to tell me they have nothing to tell me. 646 00:36:50,760 --> 00:36:53,960 I wish I was joking, I'm not. They have not 647 00:36:54,280 --> 00:36:58,920 provided an update on DNA evidence that they promised us 648 00:36:59,159 --> 00:37:04,440 results for over a year ago, and we have heard nothing. 649 00:37:04,599 --> 00:37:08,519 They give us the straight arm. They barely speak to us. 650 00:37:09,400 --> 00:37:11,360 As I said, they call once a month to tell 651 00:37:11,440 --> 00:37:14,159 us we got nothing to tell you. The Virginia State 652 00:37:14,199 --> 00:37:17,840 Police are proceeding, maybe not at the pace I might 653 00:37:18,039 --> 00:37:20,920 like or that the other families would like. But they 654 00:37:21,000 --> 00:37:24,840 are working this case and they are coming up with 655 00:37:24,960 --> 00:37:29,159 solutions in the meantime. The FBI, and as you said, Kristen, 656 00:37:29,360 --> 00:37:32,000 neither one of us are conspiracy theorists. But you start 657 00:37:32,000 --> 00:37:34,079 to think to yourself, maybe you don't want to solve 658 00:37:34,119 --> 00:37:37,880 this case because it will further embarrass the FBI. But 659 00:37:38,000 --> 00:37:42,360 the FBI brought this on themselves, and their horrific work 660 00:37:42,480 --> 00:37:46,119 in this case is right there for anyone that wants 661 00:37:46,159 --> 00:37:48,199 to take a look at it. They have done a 662 00:37:48,400 --> 00:37:52,239 horrible job in this case. The only way to rectify 663 00:37:52,320 --> 00:37:54,800 this is for them to work the case as hard 664 00:37:54,840 --> 00:37:58,239 as the Virginia State Police are and tell us who 665 00:37:58,360 --> 00:38:03,039 killed Kathy Thomas at Kadowski, Keith Call and Cassandra Haley. 666 00:38:03,239 --> 00:38:07,039 Those four murders are on their beat because they happen 667 00:38:07,280 --> 00:38:11,159 inside the National Park. So step up and do your jobs. 668 00:38:12,199 --> 00:38:16,039 Speaker 3: Agreed. As always, we want to thank everybody for your 669 00:38:16,199 --> 00:38:21,840 excellent questions, your comments, your support. We asked a couple 670 00:38:21,920 --> 00:38:26,480 of weeks back for people to write in excellent reviews, 671 00:38:26,880 --> 00:38:30,920 and boy did you guys deliver. It was wonderful to 672 00:38:31,000 --> 00:38:34,880 see all those wonderful reviews come rolling in. We appreciate 673 00:38:34,920 --> 00:38:38,079 it more than we can tell you, because while we 674 00:38:38,159 --> 00:38:42,480 do enjoy doing this very much, it is also sometimes 675 00:38:42,599 --> 00:38:46,920 very difficult to do, and so kind words and thanks 676 00:38:46,920 --> 00:38:50,679 for our efforts are always appreciated. So to everybody who 677 00:38:50,719 --> 00:38:55,679 has been listening, watching, commenting, and cheering for us, either 678 00:38:55,719 --> 00:39:00,000 in the comment section or on the sidelines, we appreciate you. Thinks. 679 00:39:00,000 --> 00:39:03,400 Thank you so much, and please keep all of that coming. 680 00:39:03,880 --> 00:39:06,280 With your energy and with your help, we're going to 681 00:39:06,360 --> 00:39:09,599 get to a new year and hopefully more answers in 682 00:39:09,679 --> 00:39:13,760 the Colonial Parkway Murders cases. That's going to do it 683 00:39:13,800 --> 00:39:16,679 for this episode of mind Over Murder. Thank you so 684 00:39:16,800 --> 00:39:19,320 much for listening. We'll see you next time. 685 00:39:28,760 --> 00:39:32,280 Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and 686 00:39:32,400 --> 00:39:33,840 Another Dog Productions. 687 00:39:34,400 --> 00:39:37,719 Speaker 2: Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley. 688 00:39:38,039 --> 00:39:40,480 Speaker 1: Our logo art is by Pamela Arnois. 689 00:39:41,119 --> 00:39:43,199 Speaker 2: Our theme music is by Kevin McLoud. 690 00:39:43,719 --> 00:39:48,000 Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is distributed in partnership with Coral Space Media. 691 00:39:48,400 --> 00:39:51,559 Speaker 2: You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram. 692 00:39:51,760 --> 00:39:54,360 Speaker 1: You can also follow our page on the Colonial Parkway 693 00:39:54,440 --> 00:39:56,320 Murders on Facebook. 694 00:39:56,039 --> 00:39:59,039 Speaker 2: And finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at 695 00:39:59,079 --> 00:39:59,719 Bill Thomas. 696 00:40:00,119 --> 00:40:04,119 Speaker 1: Five six Thank you for listening to Mind Over Murder.