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<v Speaker 5>You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking

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<v Speaker 5>Killers in True crime History and the authors that have

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<v Speaker 5>written about him, Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker, Bck. Every

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<v Speaker 5>week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and

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<v Speaker 5>infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your

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<v Speaker 5>host journalist and author Dan Zufanski.

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<v Speaker 6>Good Evening. Criminologist Anthony Mioli said, Sondra London broke round

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<v Speaker 6>in publishing the Confessions of serial killer Danny Rowling, but

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<v Speaker 6>only part of that story could be told in nineteen

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<v Speaker 6>ninety six. Now, in this unique new volume, the controversy

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<v Speaker 6>surrounding the making of a serial killer is revealed in

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<v Speaker 6>a series of interviews and appearances including NBC Dateline, Court

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<v Speaker 6>TV Talk Radio and Courtroom Drama. The only shows off

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<v Speaker 6>Rolling's art with a stunning painting Rolling called his masterpiece

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<v Speaker 6>and his handwritten explanation of its symbolism. Podcasters Dan Supaski

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<v Speaker 6>True Murder and Ariel Kooxie Malice share thought provoking conversations

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<v Speaker 6>that elicit new revelations about London's work with Rolling, and

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<v Speaker 6>in a sensational Secret interview with Rolling is finally revealed.

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<v Speaker 6>The book that we're featuring this evening is Danny Rolling

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<v Speaker 6>Serial Killer Interviews with my special guest, journalists and author

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<v Speaker 6>Sondra London. Welcome back to the program, and thank you

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<v Speaker 6>so much for this interview, Sondra London.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh, dame, it's always a pleasure to be a guest

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<v Speaker 2>on your show. You're such a good host and you

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<v Speaker 2>ask some great questions.

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<v Speaker 6>Huh. Thank you so much. Your a great guest and

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<v Speaker 6>one of the most thought provoking programs that we ever

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<v Speaker 6>have are when you appear. So let's get right to this.

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<v Speaker 6>You appeared recently on True Murder. We talked about the

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<v Speaker 6>making of a serial killer and why this book at

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<v Speaker 6>this time and why this approach.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, well, you know I set out to do an intensive,

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<v Speaker 2>in depth study of Danny Rowling, and I didn't have

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<v Speaker 2>any structures upon me, no deadline, or nobody to please,

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<v Speaker 2>so it was a completely untrammeled research project that went

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<v Speaker 2>on about six years directly with Danny Rowling, and my

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<v Speaker 2>goal there was to learn because I had been presented

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<v Speaker 2>with the mystery of the mind of a serial killer

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<v Speaker 2>years before in the person of Gerard John Schaeffer. And

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<v Speaker 2>when I got through working with Shaeffer and published the

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<v Speaker 2>book Killer Fiction, I still was not done. I still

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<v Speaker 2>was mystified by this phenomenon. So when Danny Rowling contacted

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<v Speaker 2>me and offered me the privilege of access to him,

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<v Speaker 2>I considered it a great privilege, and I was very

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<v Speaker 2>happy to be able to allow to do this course

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<v Speaker 2>of study under whatever I had no idea of. No

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<v Speaker 2>one could imagine the conditions that developed from me doing

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<v Speaker 2>this story, but I was very committed to doing this,

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<v Speaker 2>so at any rate, we did the book. Well. It

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<v Speaker 2>turns out that doing the book is historian itself, and

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<v Speaker 2>a book can only be one book link long, and

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<v Speaker 2>so far as I'm concerned, one subject. So out of

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<v Speaker 2>all that work, the Making of a serial Killer, it

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<v Speaker 2>runs about two hundred pages, and it's only the material

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<v Speaker 2>that really relates to that title, and I only covered

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<v Speaker 2>that much. But in the course of working the Danny

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<v Speaker 2>Rowlings of an enormous amount of material was generated. And

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<v Speaker 2>I would like to think I was done with that

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<v Speaker 2>case by doing the Making of a Serial Killer, But

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<v Speaker 2>it turns out there's some really, really more interesting things

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<v Speaker 2>that follow on, And so I purposed to do a

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<v Speaker 2>book I call Beyond the Making of a Serial Killer.

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<v Speaker 2>And I got about one hundred and fifty pages into

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<v Speaker 2>that project when now you did my interview with Anthony

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<v Speaker 2>me only Oh my goodness. This turned out to be

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<v Speaker 2>a four hour marathon interview and we just we just

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<v Speaker 2>stayed on it and very wide ranging topics from other

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<v Speaker 2>cases that he and I had both worked. And we're

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<v Speaker 2>talking so much about the use of the artwork as

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<v Speaker 2>being able to convey the essence of the personality. And

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<v Speaker 2>so those are the things that we talked about. And well,

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<v Speaker 2>it turned out to be about one hundred and twenty

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<v Speaker 2>pages long, and I said, wow, you know it's going

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<v Speaker 2>to take over the whole book. And so I said,

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<v Speaker 2>you know what, let me just break that out into

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<v Speaker 2>another book and put some more interviews in it, and

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<v Speaker 2>just do a book only of interviews. So in my mind,

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<v Speaker 2>I thought I had all these interviews transcribed and I

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<v Speaker 2>would just kind of, you know, I'll slap this together

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<v Speaker 2>and no time at all, it would be like it

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<v Speaker 2>did itself. You know, it didn't turn out that way.

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<v Speaker 2>Transcribing is very hard. I used to be a professional

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<v Speaker 2>transcriptionist for medical but not now. I don't want to

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<v Speaker 2>do any more transcribing because and then you use the

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<v Speaker 2>robot and you get all the us and ums, and

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<v Speaker 2>you know, it's more work to go through there and

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<v Speaker 2>pick them out than it would be if you just

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<v Speaker 2>sat and typed it. So anyway, that was my concept.

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<v Speaker 2>That was why I decided to do this book, and

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<v Speaker 2>I decided to get this out and then go back

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<v Speaker 2>to work on Beyond the Making of a Serial Killer,

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<v Speaker 2>which is really back more to the subject of Danny

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<v Speaker 2>Rowling's crimes, because in that book, I will reveal the

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<v Speaker 2>confessions to the triple murder in Louisiana, and I'm also

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<v Speaker 2>including some of Danny Rowling's fiction. He had specialized on

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<v Speaker 2>a long project called the Legends of the Black Marsh,

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<v Speaker 2>kind of like fairy tales from the Middle Ages with

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<v Speaker 2>witches and gypsies and princes and princesses and you know,

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<v Speaker 2>fiery steeds, you know, But he did within that body

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<v Speaker 2>of work he started doing contemporary fiction. He still called

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<v Speaker 2>it Legends of the Black Marsh, but it wasn't it

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<v Speaker 2>was contemporary. So I put a couple of those in there,

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<v Speaker 2>because he deals. The protagonist in the story is, of

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<v Speaker 2>course Danny Rowling right, So it's another way to see it.

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<v Speaker 2>So that's what's going to be in beyond the making

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<v Speaker 2>of a serial killer when I get it done. Meanwhile,

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<v Speaker 2>I put out this book of interviews, and to me,

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<v Speaker 2>it's not like what you'd call a regular true crime book.

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<v Speaker 2>It's more like a magazine in a way, because you

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<v Speaker 2>can pick up any part and just read that part.

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<v Speaker 2>You don't have to read it in order, and in fact,

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<v Speaker 2>there is no order. It's not in chronological order by

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<v Speaker 2>any means. If anything, it's the opposite. Because I put

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<v Speaker 2>the interview with Meoli up front. I just feel that

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<v Speaker 2>it's very conversational and there's lots of interesting artwork. At

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<v Speaker 2>the end of when Meoli and I have our little chat,

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<v Speaker 2>there's a story that the any rolling Road for Meoli

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<v Speaker 2>and it's included here, and it's called Rooftop. So he

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<v Speaker 2>wrote that story after he left my companionship and my elaboration,

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<v Speaker 2>and I made some observations about how Danny had changed

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<v Speaker 2>since we last worked together, and it comes out in

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<v Speaker 2>that story. I included his handwriting because it's become starting

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<v Speaker 2>to annoy me. People are saying that he didn't write

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<v Speaker 2>anything that I wrote. It okay, And I find myself

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<v Speaker 2>having to defend myself in the form of putting the handwriting,

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<v Speaker 2>and I clean up the image from artifacts so you

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<v Speaker 2>don't see the wrinkles and that you just see a

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<v Speaker 2>black and white image of his what he inscribed against

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<v Speaker 2>the white page. And there's a lot of information in that.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, there's a whole body of study about handwriting

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<v Speaker 2>graphology and people who say that your handwriting reveals things

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<v Speaker 2>about yourself. And so I considered that as much a

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<v Speaker 2>part of it as a drawing of a face. Right here,

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<v Speaker 2>he's using his whole self to inscribe these words. They're

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<v Speaker 2>not edited. There's no sound for London in the mix.

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<v Speaker 2>Uh So there, that's it. So that's just please don't

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<v Speaker 2>pursue that area of inquiry because it's fruitless. That would

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<v Speaker 2>defeat my whole purpose in being there. If I wanted

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<v Speaker 2>to make things up, I would write fiction.

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<v Speaker 6>Mm hmm. Right now, the thing is you you, it's

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<v Speaker 6>we need to explain or you need to explain that

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<v Speaker 6>not only had me only spoken to many other killers

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<v Speaker 6>before he had a chance to this six hour face

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<v Speaker 6>to face with Rolling, but did you had also spoke

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<v Speaker 6>to several serial Killers before you got a chance to

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<v Speaker 6>speak to Rolling. So the thing is that when you

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<v Speaker 6>gave you write that you gave him basically a creative

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<v Speaker 6>writing a crash creative writing course, so that he was

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<v Speaker 6>able to be able to communicate. And also as just

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<v Speaker 6>from the very beginning he used artwork and symbols and

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<v Speaker 6>you can explain, but the way he expressed himself, so

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<v Speaker 6>it wasn't like you were directing him to do this,

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<v Speaker 6>which just happens to be very entertaining way of presentation.

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<v Speaker 6>Like you say, very much like a magazine though with artwork, poems, writing,

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<v Speaker 6>it's very very decorative. Tell us why was essential that

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<v Speaker 6>he communicate this way?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, I did work with a famous author by the

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<v Speaker 2>name of Joel Norris who wrote this book Serial Killers

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<v Speaker 2>to growing right, and people probably don't realize he had

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<v Speaker 2>a degree in art therapy. Well, I worked with him,

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<v Speaker 2>and we worked and interviewed artist Tool and he was illiterate. Okay,

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<v Speaker 2>So at that point when I began to work with Tool,

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<v Speaker 2>I had gone from Schaeffer who had a degree in

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<v Speaker 2>creative writing and criminal justice double bachelor's degrees, to artist Tool,

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<v Speaker 2>who was functionally Elizabeth And I said, well, how am

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<v Speaker 2>I gonna get me anything from him? And it was

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<v Speaker 2>then that I introduced the very idea that I later

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<v Speaker 2>called killer art. And I'm just like, well, you can't write,

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<v Speaker 2>send me pictures. And so then we got to meet

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<v Speaker 2>him and questioned him about his pictures in person and

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<v Speaker 2>do a drawing there and you know, watch him do it,

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<v Speaker 2>work with him on that. So I learned how you

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<v Speaker 2>can use that form of expression, and then if you

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<v Speaker 2>want to, you can go further and delve with the

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<v Speaker 2>person and say, you know, well, I see why that

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<v Speaker 2>your figure is missing one part of the body's what's missing.

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<v Speaker 2>And they can't even figure out that they haven't drawn

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<v Speaker 2>any feet on it. And that has to do with

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<v Speaker 2>not being grounded literally, because our psychology and our body

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<v Speaker 2>are intimately they're they're part of the same entity. Okay,

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<v Speaker 2>So it's like you can't separate your foot from your leg.

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<v Speaker 2>You can't separate your psychological or spiritual self from your body.

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<v Speaker 2>So when the body does, if you want to know

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<v Speaker 2>about the mind, then you can delve in that direction.

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<v Speaker 2>When with Danny Rowling, we were participating consensually in revealing

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<v Speaker 2>the inner workings of his mind. And he has often

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<v Speaker 2>said I don't understand myself. When asked if he was

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<v Speaker 2>dangerous over me, he was killed again and he said,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, I really can't say. You know, he says,

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<v Speaker 2>my mind has betrayed me and I really don't know.

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<v Speaker 2>So and then look at the appearance he made in court.

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<v Speaker 2>It's so famous. They played this on TV all the time,

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<v Speaker 2>where he sings to me and I'm standing there looking

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<v Speaker 2>really sappy and he's singing away. But listen to the

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<v Speaker 2>words he's the words are what were my words? All

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<v Speaker 2>my tears run together? What were my words? Because at

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<v Speaker 2>that point it was understood that, you know, he was

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<v Speaker 2>half unconscious and youth in the arts, the music gestures

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<v Speaker 2>anything nonverbal is closer to the unconscious. You're trying to

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<v Speaker 2>probe and to the unconscious and find out what's hiding

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<v Speaker 2>in there and who is Jemini? You know, and you

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<v Speaker 2>know in order to get to that level, you can't.

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<v Speaker 2>The person is not a machine that you walk up

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<v Speaker 2>and put a quarter in and you get your answers

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<v Speaker 2>on ice.

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<v Speaker 6>That's right.

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<v Speaker 2>What you get depends on you have to give. You

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<v Speaker 2>have to participate to get anything of any lasting significance.

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<v Speaker 6>You talk about the the use of the third person

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<v Speaker 6>narrative to be able to explain things and not be

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<v Speaker 6>able to admit the things but in this other personality.

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<v Speaker 6>And Ted Bundy is a famous case, but you also

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<v Speaker 6>talk about you know, you also talked about him, Danny Rowling,

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<v Speaker 6>being able to do that as well. You say that

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<v Speaker 6>this is necessary.

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<v Speaker 2>Why, well, there's too much pain involved, isn't there. I mean,

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<v Speaker 2>for such a dramatic breakdown of the one's nature to occur,

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<v Speaker 2>you have to have an enormous amount of trauma and

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<v Speaker 2>pain behind it.

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<v Speaker 6>And so.

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<v Speaker 2>Going into that it's not easy and it's not fun,

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<v Speaker 2>and it can really you know, throw your schedule off

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<v Speaker 2>for your regularly scheduled activities because you can break yourself

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<v Speaker 2>down going back into that place where you were broke down.

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<v Speaker 2>I remember when I co authored this book with Diane Fitzpatrick,

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<v Speaker 2>and she had been under several forms of torture, especially

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<v Speaker 2>as a child, and we worked all that out, took

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<v Speaker 2>thirteen years, and at the end it was a comment

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<v Speaker 2>that she made to me, you know, now I don't

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<v Speaker 2>have to go down into the hole anymore. I've been there.

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<v Speaker 2>I know what it is. It's the whole.

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<v Speaker 6>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>So you and coming to terms with these painful traumas

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<v Speaker 2>is what I would call the subject. There is a

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<v Speaker 2>painful experience.

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<v Speaker 6>You talk about that. Anthony Meoli, like yourself, considered him

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<v Speaker 6>quite unique. Uh In when he asked him questions again

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<v Speaker 6>and this third person narrative that he would respond. He

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<v Speaker 6>asked him about the three murders in Louisiana and he

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<v Speaker 6>said that his eyes changed, and you commented that that

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<v Speaker 6>was very similar to your experience. Tell us about what

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<v Speaker 6>you discussed about this change when they were discussing these

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<v Speaker 6>murders and this exchange between me and rolling.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, I'm sorry, I can't address your question directly. I

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<v Speaker 2>can talk about a little bit about that, though. You

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<v Speaker 2>could say, you know what, he's one of those people

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<v Speaker 2>with those hazel eyes anyway, you know, and it's quite

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<v Speaker 2>common for people to say those people's eyes change, isn't it.

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<v Speaker 2>You don't hear that much about brown eyed people's eyes changing.

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<v Speaker 2>But he has those kind of in the middle, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>kind of a pale eyes, so for his eyes to change. Now,

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<v Speaker 2>remember Anthony Muoli was there in person with Danny, and

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<v Speaker 2>I have never been allowed to be there in person

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<v Speaker 2>with Danny. All of our work was in writing and

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<v Speaker 2>it's really as we experienced it. At the time, we

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<v Speaker 2>wanted visitation. The state knew we wanted visitation, so they

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<v Speaker 2>withheld it to manipulate him to confess. Okay, So being

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<v Speaker 2>in the middle in the first person, it was, well,

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<v Speaker 2>we just want to have the station so we can

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<v Speaker 2>talk about the things about his life story and his crimes. Well,

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<v Speaker 2>the state thought they were hurting us by denying that,

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<v Speaker 2>but guess what all that did was ensure that everything

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00:20:23.000 --> 00:20:27.599
<v Speaker 2>we did was in writing. So there's no question did

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00:20:27.640 --> 00:20:30.599
<v Speaker 2>it happen or not. There's no question is this sound

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<v Speaker 2>for London saying this or is it Danny Rowling saying it?

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00:20:36.200 --> 00:20:42.359
<v Speaker 2>Because every single thing that happened is in writing. So

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<v Speaker 2>I think it's kind of ironic that in the attempt

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00:20:45.799 --> 00:20:51.079
<v Speaker 2>to defeat our purpose and to make me stop doing

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00:20:51.319 --> 00:20:58.759
<v Speaker 2>my project, they really were part of helping to create

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00:20:58.839 --> 00:21:03.279
<v Speaker 2>it as the a very useful document historically, because it

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00:21:03.400 --> 00:21:11.720
<v Speaker 2>is a document. It isn't just me saying this.

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<v Speaker 6>This information that Meoli gathered, and he's a respected criminologist.

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<v Speaker 6>You interviewed him extensively and shared a lot of the things.

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<v Speaker 6>You've shared a lot of the same ideas. It was

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<v Speaker 6>certainly about the value of the art work, and not

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00:21:29.799 --> 00:21:34.039
<v Speaker 6>so much interpretive, but just in whatever he thought he

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<v Speaker 6>was communicating. It was very interesting that he had an

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<v Speaker 6>extensive painting collection given to him by Danny Rolling. So

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<v Speaker 6>both you have extensive art collections, Yes, from Danny Rolling,

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00:21:47.519 --> 00:21:47.839
<v Speaker 6>don't you.

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<v Speaker 2>I think it's very interesting. And in fact, Meoli wants

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00:21:52.000 --> 00:21:58.279
<v Speaker 2>to do a book of Killer art and he wants me,

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00:21:58.400 --> 00:22:00.720
<v Speaker 2>you know, the co author, and I'm not sure what

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00:22:00.839 --> 00:22:02.960
<v Speaker 2>I can contribute to the one.

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00:22:02.839 --> 00:22:03.920
<v Speaker 6>With all the artwork.

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00:22:04.000 --> 00:22:10.119
<v Speaker 2>He has probably the biggest artwork Killer artwork collection extant today,

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00:22:12.039 --> 00:22:14.440
<v Speaker 2>and I encouraged him to do it. I wish he

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00:22:14.480 --> 00:22:18.759
<v Speaker 2>would put out a full color book of his art collection.

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00:22:20.960 --> 00:22:24.480
<v Speaker 6>So this is impressive, the collection that you put together.

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00:22:24.559 --> 00:22:26.839
<v Speaker 6>Here some of the examples of Danny Rolling's art. But

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00:22:26.920 --> 00:22:29.759
<v Speaker 6>also we've got to say that also some of your

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00:22:29.759 --> 00:22:32.960
<v Speaker 6>own sketches of Danny Rolling are quite interesting and I

316
00:22:33.000 --> 00:22:33.920
<v Speaker 6>was impressed with them.

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<v Speaker 2>So you you know, people ask why are all these

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00:22:39.880 --> 00:22:44.039
<v Speaker 2>prisoners so talented? And my answer is, well, if we

319
00:22:44.119 --> 00:22:46.839
<v Speaker 2>locked you up in a cage and took your TVU

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<v Speaker 2>and everything else away, and your visits and all your

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00:22:52.759 --> 00:22:55.680
<v Speaker 2>other activities, and gave you a piece of paper and

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00:22:55.720 --> 00:22:58.759
<v Speaker 2>a pencil, all that we'd find out you had talent too,

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00:23:00.160 --> 00:23:03.400
<v Speaker 2>you know. I think it's just something that we don't

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00:23:03.440 --> 00:23:08.480
<v Speaker 2>do much these days, take a penant, paper, you know.

325
00:23:09.400 --> 00:23:13.519
<v Speaker 2>But I think it's it's not that exceptional, and I

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00:23:13.559 --> 00:23:17.240
<v Speaker 2>think it looks more exceptional when you look at prisoner. Prisoners,

327
00:23:17.240 --> 00:23:21.359
<v Speaker 2>but jet remembered they're they're in a cage. They're deprived

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00:23:21.400 --> 00:23:25.160
<v Speaker 2>of normal lives, is the main thing about a prisoner,

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00:23:26.440 --> 00:23:26.759
<v Speaker 2>you know.

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<v Speaker 5>Mm hmm.

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<v Speaker 2>Uh.

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<v Speaker 6>Let's talk about an interview you had with Don Snyder

333
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<v Speaker 6>or pardon me, an interview Don Snyder had with Danny Rowling.

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00:23:37.079 --> 00:23:39.759
<v Speaker 6>And then you've got a copy of this after they

335
00:23:39.839 --> 00:23:42.920
<v Speaker 6>killed this story. Well it was from People magazine, I

336
00:23:42.920 --> 00:23:45.960
<v Speaker 6>believe at that time. Tell us a little bit about this, uh,

337
00:23:46.000 --> 00:23:48.680
<v Speaker 6>this tape and really, what did you what did you

338
00:23:48.759 --> 00:23:49.880
<v Speaker 6>learn from listening to it?

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00:23:53.400 --> 00:23:59.079
<v Speaker 2>Don Snyder was uh had been pre eminent in that

340
00:23:59.160 --> 00:24:05.440
<v Speaker 2>whole media empire for years before they even founded People magazines,

341
00:24:05.480 --> 00:24:09.400
<v Speaker 2>and he was like a kind of a senior journalist

342
00:24:09.559 --> 00:24:16.200
<v Speaker 2>emeritus working on special projects at will and so within

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00:24:16.319 --> 00:24:19.440
<v Speaker 2>that context, and he had contacted me, he came to

344
00:24:19.519 --> 00:24:22.720
<v Speaker 2>visit me, and he had some kind of politicerprise winning

345
00:24:22.759 --> 00:24:29.799
<v Speaker 2>photographer with him took all these pictures. And but Don

346
00:24:29.960 --> 00:24:35.599
<v Speaker 2>Sider was very, very thoughtful and in depth thinker, and

347
00:24:35.680 --> 00:24:39.240
<v Speaker 2>he spent enough time with me to find out that

348
00:24:41.160 --> 00:24:43.680
<v Speaker 2>I think there I'm just not going to say he

349
00:24:43.799 --> 00:24:46.960
<v Speaker 2>said this, but I think he found out that what

350
00:24:47.319 --> 00:24:52.599
<v Speaker 2>they wanted was not the real story. And he said

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00:24:52.640 --> 00:24:55.720
<v Speaker 2>he had come to respect me. I sent me Christmas

352
00:24:55.720 --> 00:24:59.000
<v Speaker 2>cards and checked up on me from time to time.

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<v Speaker 2>And so when he went in and got that tape,

354
00:25:05.920 --> 00:25:09.640
<v Speaker 2>and so when they killed the story, I took it

355
00:25:09.680 --> 00:25:13.839
<v Speaker 2>as a gesture of his own personal goodwill that he

356
00:25:13.920 --> 00:25:17.359
<v Speaker 2>gave me that tape. He said, it's yours. Do whatever

357
00:25:17.400 --> 00:25:23.240
<v Speaker 2>you want with it, because evidently there was some kind

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00:25:23.359 --> 00:25:28.799
<v Speaker 2>of kind of a you know, get a kind of

359
00:25:29.880 --> 00:25:36.240
<v Speaker 2>program going on there, reaching through People magazine, and evidently

360
00:25:36.359 --> 00:25:41.519
<v Speaker 2>Don Cider didn't want to play to that audience, right,

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<v Speaker 2>So that's how we got the tape. Now, what did

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00:25:44.960 --> 00:25:48.039
<v Speaker 2>I learn from that tape? I was able to really

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<v Speaker 2>hear Danny change personalities in an audio in real time,

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<v Speaker 2>and that was kind of shocking. First time I heard it,

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00:26:00.960 --> 00:26:04.200
<v Speaker 2>I was like, who's that? A different voice comes in,

366
00:26:04.279 --> 00:26:07.720
<v Speaker 2>you know, and I was like, what, wait a minute.

367
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<v Speaker 2>When he says, oh my god, that's him, and he

368
00:26:14.279 --> 00:26:18.279
<v Speaker 2>tells this part where he's talking about how Gemini came

369
00:26:18.319 --> 00:26:23.720
<v Speaker 2>and whispered in his ear and all, and he uses

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<v Speaker 2>the voice of Gemini and it's kind of a whisper,

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<v Speaker 2>and he whispers the words that jem and I said

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<v Speaker 2>to him. And then right after that, then he says,

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<v Speaker 2>in Danny's voice, he says, and I let that thing

374
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<v Speaker 2>into me. I let that Gemini spirit into me. And

375
00:26:45.960 --> 00:26:52.079
<v Speaker 2>you can tell you can hear him changing his point

376
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<v Speaker 2>of view.

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<v Speaker 6>Yeah, well incredible.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, So that was really that was really important in

379
00:27:03.759 --> 00:27:11.400
<v Speaker 2>my uh, in terms of understanding him, because I, like

380
00:27:11.480 --> 00:27:14.720
<v Speaker 2>I said that dissociation is normal. We all do it.

381
00:27:15.599 --> 00:27:18.319
<v Speaker 2>And if I'm if you're there playing with your two

382
00:27:18.359 --> 00:27:21.720
<v Speaker 2>year old child and you talk and baby talk and

383
00:27:21.799 --> 00:27:24.880
<v Speaker 2>your boss calls you, you pick up the phone your

384
00:27:25.039 --> 00:27:29.759
<v Speaker 2>you don't talk baby talk to your boss, you instantly

385
00:27:31.279 --> 00:27:37.000
<v Speaker 2>react in a different mode without thinking. Because that's normal,

386
00:27:37.759 --> 00:27:44.839
<v Speaker 2>you see, it's normal to have different presentations for different circumstances.

387
00:27:45.759 --> 00:27:50.759
<v Speaker 2>What the difference there between normal and Danny Rowling is

388
00:27:50.799 --> 00:27:56.279
<v Speaker 2>that his condition was so much more extreme that that

389
00:27:56.400 --> 00:28:01.400
<v Speaker 2>he had lost control of it, and if you were

390
00:28:01.440 --> 00:28:08.319
<v Speaker 2>just normal, you could control and modulate your presentation accordingly.

391
00:28:08.519 --> 00:28:11.119
<v Speaker 2>You know, whether you're with the you know, leading the

392
00:28:11.160 --> 00:28:15.839
<v Speaker 2>brownie troop, or whether you're the CEO you know of

393
00:28:15.960 --> 00:28:20.200
<v Speaker 2>a company deploying one hundred and fifty people, you could

394
00:28:20.200 --> 00:28:24.680
<v Speaker 2>easily do both things. It's not any kind of weird

395
00:28:24.920 --> 00:28:29.880
<v Speaker 2>pathology involved. The way we get into the weird pathology

396
00:28:30.079 --> 00:28:36.000
<v Speaker 2>is when the break is so strong, it's so extreme,

397
00:28:36.799 --> 00:28:42.480
<v Speaker 2>that the different ways of being don't they're not merged,

398
00:28:42.759 --> 00:28:47.519
<v Speaker 2>they don't flow one to the other. It's rigid, they're separated.

399
00:28:48.440 --> 00:28:49.880
<v Speaker 2>You get one or the other.

400
00:28:54.440 --> 00:28:59.519
<v Speaker 6>Your philosophy is throughout this entire book as well. We're

401
00:28:59.559 --> 00:29:03.200
<v Speaker 6>we talking about censorship. Of course, that's raised in this

402
00:29:03.240 --> 00:29:06.640
<v Speaker 6>book as well through some of the interviews and some

403
00:29:06.720 --> 00:29:09.799
<v Speaker 6>of the things that you were subjected to. And it's

404
00:29:09.920 --> 00:29:13.279
<v Speaker 6>very very interesting that you were able to provide this

405
00:29:13.400 --> 00:29:16.880
<v Speaker 6>in this book to show that again, the philosophy of

406
00:29:16.960 --> 00:29:22.440
<v Speaker 6>the entire truth, I think, especially in ninety six was

407
00:29:22.480 --> 00:29:25.279
<v Speaker 6>something novel and I still think it is. Maybe you

408
00:29:25.319 --> 00:29:28.640
<v Speaker 6>can explain what you mean by that and why you're

409
00:29:28.640 --> 00:29:33.960
<v Speaker 6>not an apologist for all the graphic detail and all

410
00:29:34.000 --> 00:29:37.400
<v Speaker 6>of the things that Danny Rowling was willing to say

411
00:29:37.440 --> 00:29:39.400
<v Speaker 6>about the truth about.

412
00:29:39.119 --> 00:29:42.440
<v Speaker 2>The murders, Well, you just lay out about a whole

413
00:29:42.440 --> 00:29:47.519
<v Speaker 2>book's worth of dissertation for me to respond to. I

414
00:29:47.519 --> 00:29:51.480
<v Speaker 2>don't know. I'll probably won't cover all that, So let

415
00:29:51.480 --> 00:29:58.319
<v Speaker 2>me know what I leave out there. The issue about

416
00:29:58.640 --> 00:30:05.240
<v Speaker 2>censorship and telling the whole ugly truth. I will directly

417
00:30:05.359 --> 00:30:12.160
<v Speaker 2>connect that to Gerard John Schaeffer, because that was his philosophy,

418
00:30:13.079 --> 00:30:20.079
<v Speaker 2>and I fought him on this, and I refused to

419
00:30:20.200 --> 00:30:23.039
<v Speaker 2>publish things that he sent me. If you want to

420
00:30:23.079 --> 00:30:27.480
<v Speaker 2>call it censorship, you could call it that. And he

421
00:30:27.559 --> 00:30:33.720
<v Speaker 2>continually argued his position that it was important for me

422
00:30:33.839 --> 00:30:38.759
<v Speaker 2>to recognize that we're dealing with pathology, and if you

423
00:30:39.000 --> 00:30:46.720
<v Speaker 2>don't present the pathology, it is a cheat. So I

424
00:30:46.799 --> 00:30:51.400
<v Speaker 2>got that from John Shaeffer, and like I say, that

425
00:30:51.559 --> 00:30:57.720
<v Speaker 2>was not my own idea. I had to be convinced

426
00:30:57.759 --> 00:31:01.960
<v Speaker 2>of it. And so once he condensed me, then I

427
00:31:02.039 --> 00:31:05.200
<v Speaker 2>begin to see it that way, because I begin to

428
00:31:05.279 --> 00:31:13.599
<v Speaker 2>see that entertainment uses mortality as a dramatic device, and

429
00:31:13.640 --> 00:31:17.519
<v Speaker 2>we use the idea that someone might die or be

430
00:31:17.680 --> 00:31:21.359
<v Speaker 2>killed to build interest in a story, and sects it

431
00:31:21.440 --> 00:31:26.160
<v Speaker 2>up to because we're talking literally about life and death.

432
00:31:27.559 --> 00:31:35.480
<v Speaker 2>There's nothing more interesting than life and death. So entertainment

433
00:31:36.640 --> 00:31:43.519
<v Speaker 2>requires that you produce a feeling of wanting to buy

434
00:31:43.559 --> 00:31:47.519
<v Speaker 2>the sponsor's product at the end of the experience, so

435
00:31:48.200 --> 00:31:52.640
<v Speaker 2>they don't really serve their interest to take you on

436
00:31:52.680 --> 00:31:55.960
<v Speaker 2>a trip that you know, a horror is a true

437
00:31:56.000 --> 00:32:01.160
<v Speaker 2>horror show will leave you unsettled, you wondering. You know,

438
00:32:02.640 --> 00:32:06.000
<v Speaker 2>if your next door neighbor might like autist tool said,

439
00:32:06.039 --> 00:32:09.799
<v Speaker 2>just pick up an ac accent, start hitting you with it.

440
00:32:10.960 --> 00:32:13.119
<v Speaker 2>And that's what he said. He said, anybody can go

441
00:32:13.200 --> 00:32:18.039
<v Speaker 2>off anytime, you don't know, but to think that way,

442
00:32:18.240 --> 00:32:21.240
<v Speaker 2>to leave your audience that way, is not a satisfying

443
00:32:21.400 --> 00:32:28.880
<v Speaker 2>esthetic experience. Now you know, Shakespeare was a success. He

444
00:32:29.079 --> 00:32:32.720
<v Speaker 2>was the rock star of his time, and he never

445
00:32:32.960 --> 00:32:39.759
<v Speaker 2>let a play end without leaving the stage littered with corpses. Yeah, okay,

446
00:32:40.440 --> 00:32:45.000
<v Speaker 2>So to present that experience to the audience in a

447
00:32:45.039 --> 00:32:47.839
<v Speaker 2>way and then to wrap it up in a way

448
00:32:47.960 --> 00:32:53.359
<v Speaker 2>that leaves them intact and maybe with something to think about,

449
00:32:53.400 --> 00:32:57.960
<v Speaker 2>but not really disturbed, you know, to the point where

450
00:32:58.000 --> 00:33:01.440
<v Speaker 2>they don't want to come to the next play. So

451
00:33:01.640 --> 00:33:05.200
<v Speaker 2>I think that those the demands of entertainment have shaped

452
00:33:05.960 --> 00:33:11.319
<v Speaker 2>what we want to hear about. And I, for example,

453
00:33:11.400 --> 00:33:15.079
<v Speaker 2>I'll use Anne rule. UH was probably the definition of

454
00:33:15.160 --> 00:33:19.960
<v Speaker 2>successful uh true crime. And UH I knew Anne, and

455
00:33:20.000 --> 00:33:24.079
<v Speaker 2>we had several talks about this and the things that

456
00:33:24.160 --> 00:33:27.119
<v Speaker 2>I was pursuing. You said, Oh, I stay away from that.

457
00:33:27.680 --> 00:33:30.640
<v Speaker 2>You know, the uh JFK assassination. Oh I stay away

458
00:33:30.640 --> 00:33:33.799
<v Speaker 2>from that. Uh the hand of death cult. Oh no, no,

459
00:33:33.839 --> 00:33:36.400
<v Speaker 2>I I don't have anything to do with it. And

460
00:33:36.440 --> 00:33:40.200
<v Speaker 2>then she has said publicly things like who cares if

461
00:33:40.240 --> 00:33:46.440
<v Speaker 2>one whino bashes another whino over the head? It's not interesting?

462
00:33:48.160 --> 00:33:50.960
<v Speaker 2>And that goes all the way back to our theories

463
00:33:51.319 --> 00:33:54.680
<v Speaker 2>uh uh in esthetics that we developed uh from the

464
00:33:54.680 --> 00:34:00.440
<v Speaker 2>the Greeks and the Romans, that we're concerned with people

465
00:34:00.559 --> 00:34:04.720
<v Speaker 2>of significance in what happens with them. We don't care

466
00:34:04.720 --> 00:34:07.799
<v Speaker 2>about the bums out there in the alley hitting each

467
00:34:07.799 --> 00:34:12.679
<v Speaker 2>other over the head. There's no stakes, there's nothing that

468
00:34:12.719 --> 00:34:18.079
<v Speaker 2>we care about involved there. Okay, So I've given a

469
00:34:18.159 --> 00:34:21.960
<v Speaker 2>lot of thought of this and how entertainment shape what

470
00:34:22.039 --> 00:34:26.920
<v Speaker 2>our audiences want. And then instead of becoming another in

471
00:34:27.239 --> 00:34:31.199
<v Speaker 2>rule and providing exactly what they want, I'm doing the opposite.

472
00:34:31.719 --> 00:34:35.000
<v Speaker 2>Why Because I'm more interested in doing things that other

473
00:34:35.199 --> 00:34:41.599
<v Speaker 2>people have left undone. Okay, if you want the same

474
00:34:41.760 --> 00:34:45.800
<v Speaker 2>old thing, then you can get it easily, and so

475
00:34:45.920 --> 00:34:49.840
<v Speaker 2>you don't need me. So since I'm here, why don't

476
00:34:49.880 --> 00:34:52.079
<v Speaker 2>I go ahead and do the things that you don't

477
00:34:52.159 --> 00:34:55.039
<v Speaker 2>dare to do. I say the things that you don't

478
00:34:55.079 --> 00:34:57.960
<v Speaker 2>dare to say, because at least it's not the same

479
00:34:58.000 --> 00:35:06.239
<v Speaker 2>old thing. Working with for Shaeffer, who really a terrible

480
00:35:06.320 --> 00:35:13.519
<v Speaker 2>experience and having to be treated to the kind of

481
00:35:13.519 --> 00:35:17.280
<v Speaker 2>assaults that he would perpetrate with his writing that he

482
00:35:17.400 --> 00:35:23.840
<v Speaker 2>sent to me to publish it was. It was very painful.

483
00:35:24.119 --> 00:35:29.039
<v Speaker 2>But then to come to Danny Rowling again, he has

484
00:35:29.119 --> 00:35:33.719
<v Speaker 2>a different reason for wanting to participate. When I meet

485
00:35:33.800 --> 00:35:38.519
<v Speaker 2>this person, he has already committed his crime. That's a given.

486
00:35:39.159 --> 00:35:42.400
<v Speaker 2>You can't get stuck on that level. You can't just

487
00:35:42.480 --> 00:35:45.840
<v Speaker 2>keep saying over and over but he got her head off,

488
00:35:46.280 --> 00:35:52.000
<v Speaker 2>How could you talk to him? Okay, that was already

489
00:35:52.280 --> 00:35:57.960
<v Speaker 2>done before the very beginning, so it has to be given.

490
00:35:59.039 --> 00:36:01.400
<v Speaker 2>So what do you do then? And what he wanted

491
00:36:01.440 --> 00:36:05.199
<v Speaker 2>to do was try to give back at least some

492
00:36:05.440 --> 00:36:10.239
<v Speaker 2>understanding of what could be learned from the story of

493
00:36:10.280 --> 00:36:14.800
<v Speaker 2>his life, from what he had done, what had shaped him,

494
00:36:15.199 --> 00:36:18.519
<v Speaker 2>the things that had happened to him, and then he

495
00:36:18.559 --> 00:36:22.880
<v Speaker 2>did not shirk in any way personal responsibility for what

496
00:36:23.039 --> 00:36:28.440
<v Speaker 2>he had done. So it's the whole picture right there,

497
00:36:30.280 --> 00:36:35.320
<v Speaker 2>that he wanted to do something good for the world,

498
00:36:36.480 --> 00:36:39.199
<v Speaker 2>and I wanted to do something good for the world

499
00:36:40.199 --> 00:36:44.159
<v Speaker 2>because I wanted to look into this dark corner of secrets.

500
00:36:44.440 --> 00:36:48.840
<v Speaker 2>Everyone's too afraid to go in there with the monster,

501
00:36:50.440 --> 00:36:53.519
<v Speaker 2>and so you don't find out anything. And he could

502
00:36:53.519 --> 00:36:55.880
<v Speaker 2>have lived and died none of this, and we'd never

503
00:36:55.960 --> 00:37:00.599
<v Speaker 2>known any of this. And as far as I didn't

504
00:37:00.639 --> 00:37:04.719
<v Speaker 2>teach him. And I go back to what Diane Fitzpatrick

505
00:37:04.800 --> 00:37:09.280
<v Speaker 2>said about being in the MK Ultra program. She said, now,

506
00:37:09.360 --> 00:37:12.960
<v Speaker 2>this isn't after we wrote the book in personal correspondence,

507
00:37:13.000 --> 00:37:17.920
<v Speaker 2>she said, it's not like they taught us anything. She said,

508
00:37:18.039 --> 00:37:25.519
<v Speaker 2>it's like they enabled us to bring it out in ourselves, right, Okay,

509
00:37:26.039 --> 00:37:31.039
<v Speaker 2>So to create a condition to allow the person to

510
00:37:31.199 --> 00:37:33.920
<v Speaker 2>come forth in their own way, it's not the same

511
00:37:34.000 --> 00:37:38.360
<v Speaker 2>as teaching them how to write. And the case of

512
00:37:38.480 --> 00:37:42.639
<v Speaker 2>Danny Rolling, the biggest characteristic he had when I started

513
00:37:42.639 --> 00:37:48.119
<v Speaker 2>with him was zero self esteem. He hated himself so much,

514
00:37:48.159 --> 00:37:55.280
<v Speaker 2>and he did not consider himself in any way worth anything.

515
00:37:56.400 --> 00:37:59.280
<v Speaker 2>And so when he began sending me these letters, and

516
00:37:59.400 --> 00:38:02.000
<v Speaker 2>he would burn first into graphics in the middle of

517
00:38:02.079 --> 00:38:05.239
<v Speaker 2>the word, it'd just be writing along in words. Then

518
00:38:05.280 --> 00:38:08.679
<v Speaker 2>all of a sudden, it's a picture, you know, and

519
00:38:08.719 --> 00:38:13.960
<v Speaker 2>I'm like, what is this? Okay? I said. Finally, I said, Danny,

520
00:38:15.159 --> 00:38:19.199
<v Speaker 2>you are an artist. And I said, if you want

521
00:38:19.239 --> 00:38:24.400
<v Speaker 2>to draw pictures, please just start a new page, draw picture,

522
00:38:25.039 --> 00:38:30.320
<v Speaker 2>sign it, and date it, because you are an artist.

523
00:38:31.440 --> 00:38:35.320
<v Speaker 2>And anyone who had any contact at Danny Rolling from

524
00:38:35.360 --> 00:38:38.599
<v Speaker 2>then on knows very well that how much he took

525
00:38:38.639 --> 00:38:43.280
<v Speaker 2>that to heart. Every single page he ever wrote, he

526
00:38:43.400 --> 00:38:50.039
<v Speaker 2>dated and initialed okay. And then he began once once

527
00:38:50.159 --> 00:38:57.360
<v Speaker 2>someone was there to validate him, to see to see something,

528
00:38:57.519 --> 00:39:01.280
<v Speaker 2>to see himself as reflect that in the eyes of

529
00:39:01.360 --> 00:39:06.519
<v Speaker 2>someone who saw something there. Okay. He would look into

530
00:39:06.559 --> 00:39:08.719
<v Speaker 2>my eyes and I would see he would see that

531
00:39:08.800 --> 00:39:13.320
<v Speaker 2>I respected him and that he was valuable and interesting.

532
00:39:14.280 --> 00:39:24.599
<v Speaker 2>And so from that he gained enough ego nourishment to

533
00:39:24.639 --> 00:39:28.519
<v Speaker 2>come forth with his art, which I did not teach

534
00:39:28.599 --> 00:39:32.960
<v Speaker 2>him art, and that's for sure, Yeah, but I just

535
00:39:33.199 --> 00:39:36.719
<v Speaker 2>uh worked with him until he was a person who

536
00:39:36.800 --> 00:39:40.639
<v Speaker 2>had enough self respect that he would allow that artistic

537
00:39:40.760 --> 00:39:43.719
<v Speaker 2>talent to come out into and to mature and grow.

538
00:39:43.800 --> 00:39:47.400
<v Speaker 2>And Danny, before he died, he had become I think

539
00:39:47.480 --> 00:39:50.559
<v Speaker 2>other people will say that he had become one of

540
00:39:50.639 --> 00:39:56.239
<v Speaker 2>the most preeminent killer artists that of modern times. He's

541
00:39:56.280 --> 00:40:00.480
<v Speaker 2>done an incredible body of work. And the thing that

542
00:40:00.559 --> 00:40:04.360
<v Speaker 2>I find most compelling about what came out of that

543
00:40:04.559 --> 00:40:08.960
<v Speaker 2>was that it is not just decorative. It's not oh,

544
00:40:09.000 --> 00:40:12.039
<v Speaker 2>he's a good artist. It's that he used the graphic

545
00:40:12.079 --> 00:40:17.360
<v Speaker 2>cards to probe his own mind. And that's what we're

546
00:40:17.400 --> 00:40:22.000
<v Speaker 2>here for. He's not there to make pretty pictures like

547
00:40:22.039 --> 00:40:26.760
<v Speaker 2>Elmer Wayne Henley make the prettiest little landscapes you will

548
00:40:26.800 --> 00:40:34.280
<v Speaker 2>ever saw. You know, uh Malveaux, And I think Malvaux

549
00:40:34.360 --> 00:40:39.639
<v Speaker 2>is a fabulous artist, but he never created anything that

550
00:40:40.840 --> 00:40:45.320
<v Speaker 2>delved into his mind. And so that's why I think

551
00:40:45.639 --> 00:40:49.840
<v Speaker 2>Danny Rowling's artwork turned out to be significant.

552
00:40:50.679 --> 00:40:53.639
<v Speaker 6>Yeah, let's usus Sondra as an opportunity to stop for

553
00:40:53.679 --> 00:40:58.599
<v Speaker 6>a second for our sponsor, which is ritual. We deserve

554
00:40:58.639 --> 00:41:00.639
<v Speaker 6>to know what we're putting in our body and why,

555
00:41:00.880 --> 00:41:03.480
<v Speaker 6>especially when it comes to something we take every day.

556
00:41:04.079 --> 00:41:08.000
<v Speaker 6>Ritual's clean Vegan friendly multivitamin is formulated with high quality

557
00:41:08.079 --> 00:41:12.800
<v Speaker 6>nutrients in bioavailable forms your body can actually use what

558
00:41:12.880 --> 00:41:17.280
<v Speaker 6>you won't find sugars, GMOs, major allergens, synthetic fillers and

559
00:41:17.360 --> 00:41:21.800
<v Speaker 6>artificial colorants. Plus the fresh taste and delayed release capital

560
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<v Speaker 6>design make taking your vitamins easy. I chose to take

561
00:41:26.280 --> 00:41:29.639
<v Speaker 6>Ritual Essential for Men fifty plus about six months ago

562
00:41:30.000 --> 00:41:33.000
<v Speaker 6>when it became available for men and teens and I

563
00:41:33.039 --> 00:41:35.280
<v Speaker 6>tried it. I decided to try because my wife, Lisa,

564
00:41:35.280 --> 00:41:38.119
<v Speaker 6>has been taking Ritual Essential for Women for over two

565
00:41:38.239 --> 00:41:41.199
<v Speaker 6>years and she is impressed with the results of taking

566
00:41:41.280 --> 00:41:44.440
<v Speaker 6>Ritual daily. She has felt it has made a significant

567
00:41:44.440 --> 00:41:48.440
<v Speaker 6>difference in her health. I want to experience Ritual for myself.

568
00:41:48.480 --> 00:41:52.440
<v Speaker 6>Their research into bioavailable vitamin and mineral sources has sold

569
00:41:52.440 --> 00:41:57.519
<v Speaker 6>me on Ritual. Ritual is the multivitamin reimagined. A multivitamin

570
00:41:57.559 --> 00:42:00.639
<v Speaker 6>should cane contain key nutrients in form your body can

571
00:42:00.679 --> 00:42:04.239
<v Speaker 6>actually use to help fill gaps in the diet, no

572
00:42:04.360 --> 00:42:10.199
<v Speaker 6>shady extras. Ritual's delayed release capsule design delivers high quality nutrients,

573
00:42:10.239 --> 00:42:14.199
<v Speaker 6>including vitamin D three in just two daily pills. Your

574
00:42:14.280 --> 00:42:17.079
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575
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576
00:42:23.079 --> 00:42:25.639
<v Speaker 6>and if you don't love Ritual within your first month,

577
00:42:25.679 --> 00:42:29.880
<v Speaker 6>they'll refund your first order key Nutrients without the BS.

578
00:42:30.280 --> 00:42:33.559
<v Speaker 6>Ritual was offering my listeners ten percent off during your

579
00:42:33.639 --> 00:42:38.159
<v Speaker 6>first three months. Visit ritual dot com slash murder to

580
00:42:38.239 --> 00:42:43.960
<v Speaker 6>start your ritual today. Now, you were talking about the

581
00:42:44.079 --> 00:42:49.920
<v Speaker 6>value of publishing and the value of encouraging Danny Rolling

582
00:42:50.400 --> 00:42:54.079
<v Speaker 6>and his artwork. But there was a whole group of

583
00:42:54.119 --> 00:42:57.840
<v Speaker 6>people that were in sense that you would dare do

584
00:42:57.960 --> 00:43:01.679
<v Speaker 6>anything like that and share have any feelings for this

585
00:43:01.880 --> 00:43:04.719
<v Speaker 6>Danny Rowling, And we'll get to that a little bit later,

586
00:43:04.800 --> 00:43:11.559
<v Speaker 6>but will let you include a particularly interesting interview with

587
00:43:11.760 --> 00:43:15.679
<v Speaker 6>Dateline with Jane Paully and Jane Paully has somebody named

588
00:43:15.760 --> 00:43:17.880
<v Speaker 6>Jennifer Frake on the program. And then you join a

589
00:43:17.920 --> 00:43:21.960
<v Speaker 6>little bit later as you as it is demonstrated in

590
00:43:22.039 --> 00:43:27.440
<v Speaker 6>this interview or illustrated, what exactly happens, what is the

591
00:43:27.480 --> 00:43:29.360
<v Speaker 6>premise of it? Tell us a little bit more about

592
00:43:29.360 --> 00:43:33.599
<v Speaker 6>your invite onto this with Jane Paully on Dateline and

593
00:43:33.719 --> 00:43:37.199
<v Speaker 6>Jennifer Frake's appearance. Tell us more about what happens.

594
00:43:37.800 --> 00:43:43.199
<v Speaker 2>Haha. I'm happy to talk about NBC. Boy. They started

595
00:43:43.480 --> 00:43:47.800
<v Speaker 2>when I was down at the trial, at the murder trial,

596
00:43:48.360 --> 00:43:51.320
<v Speaker 2>and they sent a producer down from New York specifically

597
00:43:51.400 --> 00:43:54.559
<v Speaker 2>to camp out on me and get me to agree

598
00:43:54.800 --> 00:44:02.840
<v Speaker 2>to an interview. And I told them no. Okay, I

599
00:44:02.880 --> 00:44:06.920
<v Speaker 2>haven't gone into this part yet in print, but I'll

600
00:44:06.960 --> 00:44:10.480
<v Speaker 2>just go into it with you now. I was under

601
00:44:10.599 --> 00:44:15.599
<v Speaker 2>contract to Maury Terry, who's been in the news again recently,

602
00:44:17.280 --> 00:44:22.679
<v Speaker 2>and Maury Terry had me under contract and told me

603
00:44:23.559 --> 00:44:28.559
<v Speaker 2>that he was going to arrange exclusive coverage and for

604
00:44:28.719 --> 00:44:34.400
<v Speaker 2>me to tell everyone no. And so that's what happened.

605
00:44:34.880 --> 00:44:39.800
<v Speaker 2>I told everyone no. And the other part of it

606
00:44:39.920 --> 00:44:42.679
<v Speaker 2>what Mary Terry was going to do for me and

607
00:44:42.840 --> 00:44:46.280
<v Speaker 2>manifest for me. That didn't work out quite that way.

608
00:44:46.480 --> 00:44:51.239
<v Speaker 2>But let's go back to NBC. So NBC's down there

609
00:44:51.360 --> 00:44:56.599
<v Speaker 2>and there the part the motel I stayed in for

610
00:44:56.679 --> 00:45:00.320
<v Speaker 2>the trial. I had to talk to them about my,

611
00:45:00.559 --> 00:45:07.480
<v Speaker 2>uh my privacy and instructed them not for no one

612
00:45:07.519 --> 00:45:11.280
<v Speaker 2>there to I was there or where ourves and they

613
00:45:11.360 --> 00:45:14.519
<v Speaker 2>breached that. They weaked that out to the press, so

614
00:45:16.239 --> 00:45:18.119
<v Speaker 2>every time I had to step out of my door,

615
00:45:18.159 --> 00:45:21.760
<v Speaker 2>they would be camping out there. So NBC sent the

616
00:45:21.880 --> 00:45:27.119
<v Speaker 2>one down and it was kind of funny. I told her, sure,

617
00:45:27.440 --> 00:45:29.360
<v Speaker 2>I said, so we can talk. You can take me

618
00:45:29.440 --> 00:45:32.119
<v Speaker 2>out to dinner at the outback. That would be great.

619
00:45:32.360 --> 00:45:34.800
<v Speaker 2>And then she's like, ooh, I'm vegan and everything. I said,

620
00:45:34.840 --> 00:45:37.000
<v Speaker 2>that's cool. You don't have to eat it, you know,

621
00:45:37.760 --> 00:45:41.800
<v Speaker 2>and oh, I'm a marathon running around. That's wonderful. Okay,

622
00:45:41.840 --> 00:45:45.840
<v Speaker 2>we're going to the outback right and and you know

623
00:45:46.320 --> 00:45:48.760
<v Speaker 2>that's it. That's my commitment to you. I'll let you

624
00:45:48.800 --> 00:45:51.119
<v Speaker 2>take me to the outback. So then she comes to

625
00:45:51.159 --> 00:45:53.360
<v Speaker 2>pick me up. Oh, why don't we go to Streak

626
00:45:53.440 --> 00:45:59.960
<v Speaker 2>and Shake instead. I'm like goodbye, And so that when

627
00:46:00.239 --> 00:46:05.559
<v Speaker 2>on and then that did not succeed, and they sent

628
00:46:05.719 --> 00:46:12.559
<v Speaker 2>a third producer down from New York to Bird dog Me. Okay,

629
00:46:13.039 --> 00:46:17.960
<v Speaker 2>this one got sent to Maury Terry. So they were

630
00:46:18.079 --> 00:46:22.360
<v Speaker 2>negotiating back and forth. Maury Terry was saying this, Oh,

631
00:46:22.480 --> 00:46:24.719
<v Speaker 2>we don't pay for news. She said, well, you pay

632
00:46:24.800 --> 00:46:30.199
<v Speaker 2>for entertainment. You want to do an entertainment story and

633
00:46:30.239 --> 00:46:35.320
<v Speaker 2>then you pay for it, you know. And they were like, ooh, no,

634
00:46:35.400 --> 00:46:39.440
<v Speaker 2>it's not entertainment, it's news. So that didn't go anywhere. Okay.

635
00:46:39.480 --> 00:46:44.480
<v Speaker 2>So those were the three producers that came down to

636
00:46:45.159 --> 00:46:53.440
<v Speaker 2>Gainesville to bother me in person. After that they switched

637
00:46:53.480 --> 00:47:01.519
<v Speaker 2>to calling me at work and insisting ending and then

638
00:47:01.559 --> 00:47:04.480
<v Speaker 2>they're like, well, we're going to do this story anyway,

639
00:47:04.559 --> 00:47:11.320
<v Speaker 2>whether you participate or not, okay, And so I did

640
00:47:11.360 --> 00:47:15.960
<v Speaker 2>agree to do this story. Now, this was a transcript

641
00:47:16.360 --> 00:47:21.000
<v Speaker 2>of the first appearance I did on NBC Dayline, and

642
00:47:21.079 --> 00:47:24.480
<v Speaker 2>I just couldn't believe they had the nerve to call

643
00:47:24.599 --> 00:47:29.679
<v Speaker 2>me again and want me to go on again. And

644
00:47:29.719 --> 00:47:33.920
<v Speaker 2>in fact, I did go on again, but I had

645
00:47:34.440 --> 00:47:39.239
<v Speaker 2>some secret weapons. My good friend and alumnus had been

646
00:47:40.320 --> 00:47:44.239
<v Speaker 2>very high up in the DA's office in New York

647
00:47:44.360 --> 00:47:49.320
<v Speaker 2>State and organized crime, and he trained prosecutors for the state.

648
00:47:49.880 --> 00:47:55.840
<v Speaker 2>He came down from Albany to my hotel in New

649
00:47:55.920 --> 00:48:02.159
<v Speaker 2>York City and put me through coaching session, uh par excellence,

650
00:48:02.960 --> 00:48:05.119
<v Speaker 2>and then he would throw me questions and then he

651
00:48:05.400 --> 00:48:07.119
<v Speaker 2>and I went answer and he said no, no, no,

652
00:48:07.159 --> 00:48:10.880
<v Speaker 2>you can't be angry. You can't be angry. Now I'll

653
00:48:10.960 --> 00:48:15.360
<v Speaker 2>do it again. And so I had that training session

654
00:48:15.400 --> 00:48:20.679
<v Speaker 2>with him because he was my friend, and so I

655
00:48:20.719 --> 00:48:23.960
<v Speaker 2>did the second appearance, you know, and it was just

656
00:48:24.039 --> 00:48:28.599
<v Speaker 2>as UH damaging. I had over two hundred and fifty

657
00:48:28.719 --> 00:48:32.559
<v Speaker 2>death threats uh and UH when I tried to report

658
00:48:32.599 --> 00:48:36.199
<v Speaker 2>it to UH law enforcement, UH, they said that they

659
00:48:36.400 --> 00:48:42.760
<v Speaker 2>didn't accept that that kind of report. Okay, And I

660
00:48:42.840 --> 00:48:46.599
<v Speaker 2>stopped counting after the two hundred and fiftieth threat that

661
00:48:46.639 --> 00:48:50.639
<v Speaker 2>I was keeping track of. But all this was UH

662
00:48:50.800 --> 00:48:53.519
<v Speaker 2>deliberately done. And I, as I told them, when they

663
00:48:53.519 --> 00:48:55.639
<v Speaker 2>were trying to argue me into appearing all that, I

664
00:48:55.679 --> 00:48:58.079
<v Speaker 2>would say, look at I'm not that big of a story.

665
00:48:58.119 --> 00:49:01.360
<v Speaker 2>What's the big deal? You know? Why are you so

666
00:49:01.440 --> 00:49:08.000
<v Speaker 2>determined to get me? You know? And now I realize

667
00:49:09.519 --> 00:49:15.320
<v Speaker 2>that they were getting their marching orders from intelligence, frankly,

668
00:49:17.320 --> 00:49:20.880
<v Speaker 2>because I've learned more since then, you know, from other

669
00:49:20.960 --> 00:49:23.679
<v Speaker 2>people and other sources that now I realize that's what

670
00:49:23.719 --> 00:49:30.039
<v Speaker 2>that was. Okay. So so here we have what happened

671
00:49:30.079 --> 00:49:34.239
<v Speaker 2>in this story there that's in the book Janet Freke.

672
00:49:34.599 --> 00:49:38.840
<v Speaker 2>All right. The Making of a Serial Killer includes one

673
00:49:39.000 --> 00:49:44.679
<v Speaker 2>chapter where Danny wrote about committing a rape in Sarasota.

674
00:49:45.119 --> 00:49:49.280
<v Speaker 2>Danny Rowling did not know the woman's name and did

675
00:49:49.280 --> 00:49:54.880
<v Speaker 2>not name her or identify her in any way. Okay,

676
00:49:56.360 --> 00:50:03.719
<v Speaker 2>And so the and they come forth with this bogus story

677
00:50:06.400 --> 00:50:11.360
<v Speaker 2>that she was in her local Barnes and Noble browsing

678
00:50:11.480 --> 00:50:15.000
<v Speaker 2>the books, which people who knew her and Sarasota said

679
00:50:15.079 --> 00:50:20.920
<v Speaker 2>was absolutely preposterous, knowing her reputation and her you know,

680
00:50:21.039 --> 00:50:25.880
<v Speaker 2>other other activities. But she was browsing the books and

681
00:50:26.039 --> 00:50:29.639
<v Speaker 2>Burned and Noble when she found this book and she

682
00:50:29.800 --> 00:50:33.360
<v Speaker 2>opened it up and she saw what he was. He

683
00:50:33.559 --> 00:50:38.159
<v Speaker 2>was writing about her, and she fell to her knees

684
00:50:38.639 --> 00:50:46.480
<v Speaker 2>there in the aisle. Okay, she literally fell to her knees. Oh,

685
00:50:46.599 --> 00:50:53.320
<v Speaker 2>she was so devastated at this write up. And then

686
00:50:53.400 --> 00:50:57.000
<v Speaker 2>the other handle on this story was the hero cop.

687
00:50:57.880 --> 00:51:03.039
<v Speaker 2>Now the hero cop, oh legedly, according to the story presented,

688
00:51:05.719 --> 00:51:08.920
<v Speaker 2>heard about his rape, not not for reading the book

689
00:51:09.000 --> 00:51:13.280
<v Speaker 2>or anything, you know, couldn't say that. So he just

690
00:51:13.360 --> 00:51:18.360
<v Speaker 2>knew about it, I guess. And so he ran her

691
00:51:18.760 --> 00:51:27.039
<v Speaker 2>DNA against Danny Rowling and got a hit. Now, why

692
00:51:27.199 --> 00:51:33.320
<v Speaker 2>is this nonsense? Because the statute of limitations on rape

693
00:51:33.800 --> 00:51:40.079
<v Speaker 2>had run. Okay. That means that there was no active

694
00:51:40.360 --> 00:51:46.760
<v Speaker 2>case open, okay, And that means that any law enforcement

695
00:51:46.800 --> 00:51:49.840
<v Speaker 2>agency in the state of Florida that expects to get

696
00:51:49.880 --> 00:51:53.519
<v Speaker 2>the services of the State lab has to fill out

697
00:51:53.559 --> 00:51:58.199
<v Speaker 2>a form with the case number on it, okay, to

698
00:51:58.400 --> 00:52:03.440
<v Speaker 2>even file it. Okay. The next thing is, during that

699
00:52:03.480 --> 00:52:06.880
<v Speaker 2>same time frame, I had a murder suspect and we

700
00:52:07.039 --> 00:52:11.639
<v Speaker 2>got his DNA and it took the state lab eighteen

701
00:52:11.880 --> 00:52:15.559
<v Speaker 2>months to get around to it, even though it had

702
00:52:15.760 --> 00:52:20.719
<v Speaker 2>a case number. Okay. So that's that's the state of

703
00:52:20.800 --> 00:52:26.639
<v Speaker 2>the art of the State clime labs. They are underfunded,

704
00:52:27.119 --> 00:52:31.199
<v Speaker 2>their way behind. You don't just run down there and

705
00:52:31.480 --> 00:52:37.000
<v Speaker 2>check the DNA. He said, quote unquote, he checked it

706
00:52:37.599 --> 00:52:43.639
<v Speaker 2>rolling on a hunch, on a hunch? What hunch? And

707
00:52:43.719 --> 00:52:46.519
<v Speaker 2>what about your boss? How did he approve of you

708
00:52:46.639 --> 00:52:51.800
<v Speaker 2>spending your time that way on a case of rape

709
00:52:51.800 --> 00:52:57.039
<v Speaker 2>that had been committed over seven years earlier. None of

710
00:52:57.039 --> 00:53:00.840
<v Speaker 2>that's holds up. That just doesn't hold up. Didn't happen.

711
00:53:02.000 --> 00:53:05.760
<v Speaker 6>But Sondra, that's what Jane Pauley was, you know, I

712
00:53:05.760 --> 00:53:08.920
<v Speaker 6>mean the way the interview went and the way it

713
00:53:09.000 --> 00:53:11.880
<v Speaker 6>was produced. Obviously, then they interview you and then they

714
00:53:12.000 --> 00:53:15.559
<v Speaker 6>put voiceovers and yeah, and it's very very dramatic and

715
00:53:15.639 --> 00:53:19.480
<v Speaker 6>obviously one sided to say the least, and that they

716
00:53:19.599 --> 00:53:24.360
<v Speaker 6>just empathize with with with Frank Janet Frake. But the

717
00:53:24.400 --> 00:53:28.400
<v Speaker 6>thing is is that you talked about that this is

718
00:53:28.440 --> 00:53:32.320
<v Speaker 6>all entertainment. But at the same time you have to

719
00:53:32.400 --> 00:53:35.360
<v Speaker 6>admit that you made a conscious decision to not be

720
00:53:35.440 --> 00:53:39.119
<v Speaker 6>a writer like Anne Rule and saw the future and

721
00:53:39.199 --> 00:53:43.079
<v Speaker 6>were more was more interested in the way which were

722
00:53:43.119 --> 00:53:46.000
<v Speaker 6>sent a book differently than Ann Rule. Not everybody wrote

723
00:53:46.039 --> 00:53:49.360
<v Speaker 6>like Ann Rule even at the time, but to be successful.

724
00:53:49.760 --> 00:53:51.360
<v Speaker 6>So the thing is, I got to say that you

725
00:53:51.639 --> 00:53:56.280
<v Speaker 6>also use controversy, and not to say you deserve the

726
00:53:56.440 --> 00:54:00.760
<v Speaker 6>ridicule and the humiliation and the attacks and the trying

727
00:54:00.800 --> 00:54:06.519
<v Speaker 6>to end your career economically, but I'm saying that it

728
00:54:06.599 --> 00:54:10.400
<v Speaker 6>seems that Jane Pauley is is poking you with the

729
00:54:10.480 --> 00:54:13.639
<v Speaker 6>idea that you don't have enough empathy and how dare

730
00:54:13.719 --> 00:54:17.440
<v Speaker 6>you have feelings? Or a serial killer? And that's the

731
00:54:17.480 --> 00:54:21.679
<v Speaker 6>way they're the way they're painting this, And so why

732
00:54:21.679 --> 00:54:26.519
<v Speaker 6>do you present this in the book? And again people

733
00:54:26.960 --> 00:54:32.360
<v Speaker 6>see this as you are somewhat attacking or criticizing Janet Frake.

734
00:54:33.840 --> 00:54:36.760
<v Speaker 6>Why is it not that, why.

735
00:54:36.599 --> 00:54:38.800
<v Speaker 2>Is it not that? I don't know what that means?

736
00:54:38.840 --> 00:54:40.320
<v Speaker 2>What do you mean? Why is what not? What?

737
00:54:41.760 --> 00:54:43.880
<v Speaker 6>Well? The thing is with with Janet, like I say

738
00:54:43.960 --> 00:54:47.880
<v Speaker 6>that you talk about her, her family, taking a movie deal.

739
00:54:48.000 --> 00:54:49.360
<v Speaker 6>You talk about this in the book, and.

740
00:54:50.320 --> 00:54:53.000
<v Speaker 2>That's the murder victims family.

741
00:54:53.840 --> 00:54:55.000
<v Speaker 6>That's not okay.

742
00:54:55.039 --> 00:55:00.239
<v Speaker 2>Now, Janet Frakes did file suit against Danny Rowling for

743
00:55:00.280 --> 00:55:05.119
<v Speaker 2>a million dollars, right, that was not the state lean.

744
00:55:06.679 --> 00:55:10.480
<v Speaker 6>Right. And this lawsuit you write though, too, is that

745
00:55:10.719 --> 00:55:14.639
<v Speaker 6>she because of the statute and there was no way

746
00:55:14.679 --> 00:55:17.280
<v Speaker 6>that she would have collected any of the money. So

747
00:55:17.360 --> 00:55:20.440
<v Speaker 6>you say this is disingenuous some of these stants that

748
00:55:20.519 --> 00:55:25.119
<v Speaker 6>she takes, because it's just not she's not going to

749
00:55:25.159 --> 00:55:26.800
<v Speaker 6>get any money from this and she's not going to

750
00:55:26.760 --> 00:55:27.760
<v Speaker 6>any recourse.

751
00:55:28.199 --> 00:55:33.480
<v Speaker 2>Well, here's the ultimate irony. I nor Danny Rowling revealed

752
00:55:33.480 --> 00:55:36.559
<v Speaker 2>to the world her name and her face. Jane Pauley

753
00:55:36.679 --> 00:55:41.039
<v Speaker 2>did that, right, Okay, So if that's such a heinous

754
00:55:41.039 --> 00:55:46.000
<v Speaker 2>offense that the story of what happened to her should

755
00:55:46.039 --> 00:55:49.960
<v Speaker 2>be known. If that's so offensive, then what's Jane Paully doing?

756
00:55:51.559 --> 00:55:56.360
<v Speaker 6>Yeah, that's right. Well, like I said, I think it's.

757
00:55:56.519 --> 00:55:58.960
<v Speaker 2>No one would have ever known that the person in

758
00:55:59.000 --> 00:56:03.440
<v Speaker 2>the story with her. There was no way, and it

759
00:56:03.519 --> 00:56:07.360
<v Speaker 2>didn't matter. Jane Pauley went and dug it up and

760
00:56:07.400 --> 00:56:11.800
<v Speaker 2>put her on TV and striking all these moral poses

761
00:56:11.840 --> 00:56:15.119
<v Speaker 2>and I'll tell you a little dialogue that was off

762
00:56:15.480 --> 00:56:19.280
<v Speaker 2>the record on that deal. And when we got through

763
00:56:19.360 --> 00:56:22.119
<v Speaker 2>taping and everything, and we were standing around and everything,

764
00:56:22.199 --> 00:56:25.679
<v Speaker 2>I said, Jane, I said, you know, you can strike

765
00:56:26.000 --> 00:56:30.039
<v Speaker 2>poses at might expense all you want. I said, but

766
00:56:30.159 --> 00:56:36.599
<v Speaker 2>you can't keep from saying my name. And she laughed.

767
00:56:36.639 --> 00:56:41.760
<v Speaker 2>She said, you're right, you know, because that's the ultimate irony.

768
00:56:41.800 --> 00:56:44.719
<v Speaker 2>And this is what I brought out in the controversy

769
00:56:44.800 --> 00:56:48.440
<v Speaker 2>with the state governor of Wyoming who wanted me banned

770
00:56:48.480 --> 00:56:52.400
<v Speaker 2>from AOL and went on Larry King to say, I

771
00:56:52.519 --> 00:56:56.800
<v Speaker 2>want to thank the governor for catapulting me into the spotlight.

772
00:56:57.559 --> 00:57:02.119
<v Speaker 2>I was working in obscurity until he chose to bring

773
00:57:02.159 --> 00:57:05.960
<v Speaker 2>me to the attention of millions of people all over

774
00:57:06.000 --> 00:57:11.320
<v Speaker 2>the world. CNN was on two hundred something countries, you know.

775
00:57:12.440 --> 00:57:17.159
<v Speaker 2>And I say, all of a sudden, my my website

776
00:57:17.280 --> 00:57:19.679
<v Speaker 2>is flooded with you know, people wanting to and I

777
00:57:19.800 --> 00:57:22.079
<v Speaker 2>all these offers to do interviews, and I said, I

778
00:57:22.119 --> 00:57:25.719
<v Speaker 2>just want to thank the governor, you know, for bringing

779
00:57:25.760 --> 00:57:28.480
<v Speaker 2>me to the attention of all these new and this

780
00:57:28.719 --> 00:57:32.000
<v Speaker 2>new audience. And that was the same thing I would

781
00:57:32.039 --> 00:57:34.039
<v Speaker 2>say to Jane polly Well. I said, it in a

782
00:57:34.079 --> 00:57:41.320
<v Speaker 2>different way. And she also said she also said, O

783
00:57:41.360 --> 00:57:45.719
<v Speaker 2>weur attorneys, uh have believed that you are in the

784
00:57:45.840 --> 00:57:51.000
<v Speaker 2>right on the state lawsuit. And I said, oh, so

785
00:57:51.559 --> 00:57:55.199
<v Speaker 2>will they fire and will they file an amicus brief?

786
00:57:56.280 --> 00:57:59.599
<v Speaker 2>Oh no, she said, that's gonna happen.

787
00:58:01.960 --> 00:58:06.079
<v Speaker 6>Yeah, this this son of Sam legislation too. You talk

788
00:58:06.119 --> 00:58:08.800
<v Speaker 6>about this thing already being struck down, and then yet

789
00:58:08.840 --> 00:58:12.280
<v Speaker 6>at the same time this has already been deemed unconstitutional,

790
00:58:12.280 --> 00:58:16.360
<v Speaker 6>and then you are still being you know, tried in

791
00:58:16.440 --> 00:58:19.760
<v Speaker 6>the in the media over this as well. So I was.

792
00:58:19.719 --> 00:58:26.639
<v Speaker 2>Being tried in court, took all of my money, and

793
00:58:26.719 --> 00:58:28.079
<v Speaker 2>they were further than that.

794
00:58:30.519 --> 00:58:34.199
<v Speaker 6>What was the premise? And what was the premise though?

795
00:58:34.199 --> 00:58:38.079
<v Speaker 6>Because the idea that the the perpetrator is not the

796
00:58:38.119 --> 00:58:40.960
<v Speaker 6>profit from the notoriety of his crimes. What's that got

797
00:58:41.000 --> 00:58:43.519
<v Speaker 6>to do with you? How can we get around that?

798
00:58:44.760 --> 00:58:47.440
<v Speaker 2>Here's what they did. They attached me to the to

799
00:58:47.480 --> 00:58:53.360
<v Speaker 2>the sellon under a legal principle that they invented, and

800
00:58:53.400 --> 00:58:59.480
<v Speaker 2>they called it unique and special. Okay, just let's just

801
00:58:59.599 --> 00:59:01.840
<v Speaker 2>say or the sound of that for a minute. If

802
00:59:01.880 --> 00:59:07.400
<v Speaker 2>you know anything about law, unique and special means unprecedented,

803
00:59:07.719 --> 00:59:12.000
<v Speaker 2>either in law or in custom. No one has ever,

804
00:59:12.119 --> 00:59:16.679
<v Speaker 2>and he said that himself when he was given the

805
00:59:16.880 --> 00:59:21.880
<v Speaker 2>Attorney General was given a lifetime Achievement award for what

806
00:59:22.039 --> 00:59:28.039
<v Speaker 2>he did to me. Okay. And when the Associated Press

807
00:59:28.239 --> 00:59:33.440
<v Speaker 2>covered that, he admitted, but he didn't say it as

808
00:59:33.480 --> 00:59:37.639
<v Speaker 2>if he should be ashamed of it. He said it

809
00:59:37.760 --> 00:59:43.280
<v Speaker 2>as if it was evident of what a brilliant attorney

810
00:59:43.320 --> 00:59:48.719
<v Speaker 2>he was. He said, I haven't heard of anyone this

811
00:59:48.920 --> 00:59:54.280
<v Speaker 2>law has been used against who was not a fellon. Okay,

812
00:59:54.320 --> 00:59:58.719
<v Speaker 2>So that was his He was so creative. I don't

813
00:59:58.760 --> 01:00:01.719
<v Speaker 2>know of any other case when one of these type

814
01:00:01.719 --> 01:00:07.239
<v Speaker 2>of cases was brought against a non convicted person, okay.

815
01:00:08.000 --> 01:00:11.199
<v Speaker 2>And he told the Associated Press he always wanted to

816
01:00:11.239 --> 01:00:15.880
<v Speaker 2>be successful, but he never suspected that his success would

817
01:00:15.920 --> 01:00:21.760
<v Speaker 2>be measured by how well he prevented someone else's. So

818
01:00:22.960 --> 01:00:27.119
<v Speaker 2>they had no real legal precedent and no way to

819
01:00:27.199 --> 01:00:32.320
<v Speaker 2>attach me to this action. In addition, there was no

820
01:00:32.480 --> 01:00:37.639
<v Speaker 2>money Okay, no money was ever paid to Danny Rowling,

821
01:00:37.719 --> 01:00:43.679
<v Speaker 2>and that's easily proven because his accounts or public record. Okay,

822
01:00:43.719 --> 01:00:48.559
<v Speaker 2>there was never any money. The lawsuit was brought under

823
01:00:48.679 --> 01:00:55.000
<v Speaker 2>prior restraint, which again is improper illegal. I was sued

824
01:00:55.440 --> 01:01:04.239
<v Speaker 2>before these stories were written. They were not written. Yeah, okay,

825
01:01:04.800 --> 01:01:09.199
<v Speaker 2>when I was sued. So there's you know, I could

826
01:01:09.280 --> 01:01:15.599
<v Speaker 2>go on and on about how bogus this action was,

827
01:01:16.079 --> 01:01:22.159
<v Speaker 2>but I will bow to the wisdom of Steve Dunlevy,

828
01:01:23.119 --> 01:01:27.559
<v Speaker 2>or the anchor on a current affair that I brought

829
01:01:27.639 --> 01:01:31.239
<v Speaker 2>this to because I was already doing stories for him,

830
01:01:31.800 --> 01:01:37.320
<v Speaker 2>and he said, nobody gives a bleep about the First Amendment.

831
01:01:37.719 --> 01:01:43.320
<v Speaker 2>It's not a story. And you know, I don't want

832
01:01:43.360 --> 01:01:49.840
<v Speaker 2>to hear that either, but I'm afraid that that's the

833
01:01:49.880 --> 01:01:53.800
<v Speaker 2>way it is. The eyes glaze over. It says, if

834
01:01:55.360 --> 01:02:00.639
<v Speaker 2>our constitutional protections against abuse, as if that's just nothing,

835
01:02:00.719 --> 01:02:05.960
<v Speaker 2>that's just a bore. That's a big boar, okay. And

836
01:02:06.000 --> 01:02:08.880
<v Speaker 2>if there was an injustice done to you as a journalist,

837
01:02:09.239 --> 01:02:15.719
<v Speaker 2>who cares? Have you got another story? You know, it's

838
01:02:15.880 --> 01:02:20.039
<v Speaker 2>not a story. So the fact that I don't really

839
01:02:20.119 --> 01:02:23.119
<v Speaker 2>want to leave the stage without putting it on the record,

840
01:02:24.480 --> 01:02:27.360
<v Speaker 2>the things that I had to go through because I

841
01:02:27.440 --> 01:02:33.360
<v Speaker 2>did the story, and this book here, Danny Rowling Serial

842
01:02:33.480 --> 01:02:39.760
<v Speaker 2>Killer Interviews, does put those things on the record, or

843
01:02:39.840 --> 01:02:47.679
<v Speaker 2>some of them, and it gives you an idea that

844
01:02:48.000 --> 01:02:57.079
<v Speaker 2>this was a historically significant event, bringing this book into

845
01:02:57.119 --> 01:03:01.440
<v Speaker 2>being being the making of a serial killer, the effect

846
01:03:01.480 --> 01:03:10.039
<v Speaker 2>that all these spinall were generated in terms of the impact.

847
01:03:13.079 --> 01:03:16.400
<v Speaker 6>So yeah, Like we mentioned that he said that this

848
01:03:16.559 --> 01:03:20.679
<v Speaker 6>was groundbreaking in the publishing The Confessions of a serial

849
01:03:20.760 --> 01:03:24.559
<v Speaker 6>Killer Danny Rowling, especially in nineteen ninety six. Let's Jesus

850
01:03:24.599 --> 01:03:27.079
<v Speaker 6>as an opportunity to stop for a second for these messages.

851
01:03:28.039 --> 01:03:32.159
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869
01:04:22.639 --> 01:04:28.800
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870
01:04:30.440 --> 01:04:34.639
<v Speaker 6>Now, we talked about this groundbreaking journalism that you were

871
01:04:34.639 --> 01:04:39.920
<v Speaker 6>doing and other people weren't understanding, and getting back to

872
01:04:40.000 --> 01:04:42.639
<v Speaker 6>these interviews that are involved in here. Know, we had

873
01:04:42.679 --> 01:04:46.800
<v Speaker 6>an interview October twentieth, twenty twenty about the making of

874
01:04:46.800 --> 01:04:50.320
<v Speaker 6>a serial killer, but you also had an interesting interview

875
01:04:50.400 --> 01:04:55.760
<v Speaker 6>with Ariel Kooxie from the Malice podcast and a lot

876
01:04:55.800 --> 01:04:58.039
<v Speaker 6>of things I found very very interesting some of the

877
01:04:58.039 --> 01:05:01.400
<v Speaker 6>things that were revealed, and you just disgust and came

878
01:05:01.440 --> 01:05:04.280
<v Speaker 6>out of that interview. So tell us a little bit

879
01:05:04.320 --> 01:05:07.519
<v Speaker 6>about that interview and what was had from it.

880
01:05:10.400 --> 01:05:14.320
<v Speaker 2>I don't really have a response to that. If you

881
01:05:14.360 --> 01:05:16.880
<v Speaker 2>want to ask me about, you know, something we talked

882
01:05:16.920 --> 01:05:21.519
<v Speaker 2>about there, and I could expand on I mean, doing

883
01:05:21.559 --> 01:05:25.800
<v Speaker 2>an interview, I'm just there and it starts and it

884
01:05:25.840 --> 01:05:27.000
<v Speaker 2>goes and then it ends.

885
01:05:28.760 --> 01:05:32.000
<v Speaker 6>Yeah, well you talk about that when she asked about

886
01:05:32.039 --> 01:05:37.639
<v Speaker 6>Danny Rowling and you talk about this hatred was not

887
01:05:37.840 --> 01:05:42.440
<v Speaker 6>just so specific to the victims, but society more at large.

888
01:05:42.480 --> 01:05:45.760
<v Speaker 6>So you talked about maybe the impetus for all of

889
01:05:45.800 --> 01:05:48.960
<v Speaker 6>this was the abuse that he suffered at the hands

890
01:05:48.960 --> 01:05:52.039
<v Speaker 6>of his father and that disappointing rejection and lack of love.

891
01:05:52.559 --> 01:05:55.719
<v Speaker 6>How did that you discuss that? So tell us what

892
01:05:55.800 --> 01:05:58.480
<v Speaker 6>you discussed about that that abuse.

893
01:06:00.199 --> 01:06:03.280
<v Speaker 2>Well, I can say this that I think that if

894
01:06:03.280 --> 01:06:05.639
<v Speaker 2>it was just his father, he would have been a

895
01:06:05.679 --> 01:06:10.360
<v Speaker 2>simple patricide. And if a count attempt between him and

896
01:06:10.440 --> 01:06:14.679
<v Speaker 2>his father had come to court, he would have been

897
01:06:16.320 --> 01:06:20.119
<v Speaker 2>exonerated under self defense because his father shot at him

898
01:06:20.480 --> 01:06:27.039
<v Speaker 2>six times before he fired back. And so, but the

899
01:06:27.599 --> 01:06:32.960
<v Speaker 2>drama with the father playing the central role, if he

900
01:06:33.119 --> 01:06:37.119
<v Speaker 2>was simply a patricide, then they would not be a story.

901
01:06:37.880 --> 01:06:42.719
<v Speaker 2>But what happened there was that society played a role,

902
01:06:42.880 --> 01:06:48.840
<v Speaker 2>and society refused to protect the child, okay, and society

903
01:06:48.920 --> 01:06:53.840
<v Speaker 2>indemnified the father because he was a good officer, and

904
01:06:53.880 --> 01:06:57.119
<v Speaker 2>those things could go on. And I would say that

905
01:06:57.159 --> 01:07:00.280
<v Speaker 2>if there was a turning point where this child could

906
01:07:00.280 --> 01:07:05.559
<v Speaker 2>have been saying, that was it when society allowed the

907
01:07:05.800 --> 01:07:12.280
<v Speaker 2>abuse and indemnified it. And from that point on, eventually

908
01:07:12.519 --> 01:07:15.960
<v Speaker 2>it coalesced in his mind that his enemy was not

909
01:07:16.360 --> 01:07:24.280
<v Speaker 2>his father, It was society. So under the terms that

910
01:07:24.320 --> 01:07:28.960
<v Speaker 2>he presents as the drama that went on within his mind,

911
01:07:30.480 --> 01:07:38.000
<v Speaker 2>it was a deal expressed in terms of one life

912
01:07:38.440 --> 01:07:43.639
<v Speaker 2>for every year that you were tortured in prison. So

913
01:07:44.840 --> 01:07:50.920
<v Speaker 2>that is an abstraction. That's not a love rivalry or

914
01:07:51.360 --> 01:07:55.079
<v Speaker 2>trying to sell body parts or any of the things

915
01:07:55.119 --> 01:08:00.000
<v Speaker 2>that we have for these multiple homicides. It was an

916
01:08:00.119 --> 01:08:03.039
<v Speaker 2>abstraction and really had nothing to do with who these

917
01:08:03.119 --> 01:08:07.480
<v Speaker 2>victims were. It wasn't you know, when you get out

918
01:08:07.519 --> 01:08:10.679
<v Speaker 2>of prison, you're gonna hunt like with Schaeffer. Oh, he

919
01:08:10.880 --> 01:08:15.360
<v Speaker 2>threatened the defense attorney, he threatened the prosecutor, he threatened

920
01:08:15.400 --> 01:08:18.720
<v Speaker 2>the judge. You know, he threatened the sheriff. He was

921
01:08:18.800 --> 01:08:20.479
<v Speaker 2>going to get out. He was going to have his

922
01:08:20.640 --> 01:08:24.239
<v Speaker 2>organized crime people go after them. Well, that's not what

923
01:08:24.279 --> 01:08:29.760
<v Speaker 2>this was. This was against what someone with the heavily

924
01:08:29.920 --> 01:08:34.399
<v Speaker 2>Christian background might refer to as powers and principalities.

925
01:08:36.159 --> 01:08:39.600
<v Speaker 6>Yes, what we talked about when we alluded to us

926
01:08:39.720 --> 01:08:43.159
<v Speaker 6>there was that his aunt, I believe, went to the

927
01:08:43.319 --> 01:08:48.279
<v Speaker 6>police and reported the abuse of the father, and the

928
01:08:48.319 --> 01:08:50.920
<v Speaker 6>police said no, but he's a good cop, and so

929
01:08:51.119 --> 01:08:53.840
<v Speaker 6>we're not going to interfere into anything domestics like that

930
01:08:54.239 --> 01:08:57.359
<v Speaker 6>and you say this is good enough. Impetus for sure.

931
01:08:58.720 --> 01:09:01.479
<v Speaker 6>He also talked about this is that it was.

932
01:09:01.479 --> 01:09:06.960
<v Speaker 2>A turning point that in his mind that made him

933
01:09:07.000 --> 01:09:12.840
<v Speaker 2>a serial killer. It wasn't because he, you know, wanted

934
01:09:12.880 --> 01:09:16.039
<v Speaker 2>to stalk this victim and find them and target them

935
01:09:16.119 --> 01:09:19.439
<v Speaker 2>and learn about them and tease them or like b

936
01:09:19.600 --> 01:09:23.199
<v Speaker 2>Dkay send things to the paper about them. He was

937
01:09:23.520 --> 01:09:31.479
<v Speaker 2>working out a revenge type concept against society. So who

938
01:09:31.520 --> 01:09:33.880
<v Speaker 2>did he choose, Well, he said he didn't choose. He

939
01:09:34.000 --> 01:09:37.439
<v Speaker 2>say he'd say Gemini that chose. But okay, why did

940
01:09:37.520 --> 01:09:43.640
<v Speaker 2>Gemini choose that victimology? And my answer would be because

941
01:09:43.800 --> 01:09:50.279
<v Speaker 2>these were young people who belonged and were cherished by society.

942
01:09:50.479 --> 01:09:54.840
<v Speaker 2>Their parents put them in school and took care of them.

943
01:09:55.119 --> 01:09:59.439
<v Speaker 2>They were well kempt, they were valued. And I see,

944
01:09:59.520 --> 01:10:02.079
<v Speaker 2>if there was only one image of Danny Rowling, it

945
01:10:02.119 --> 01:10:06.479
<v Speaker 2>would be a guy with his nose pressed up against

946
01:10:06.479 --> 01:10:09.760
<v Speaker 2>the window of life, watching life go by and knowing

947
01:10:09.880 --> 01:10:13.159
<v Speaker 2>he could never be part of it.

948
01:10:14.479 --> 01:10:17.279
<v Speaker 6>And you talk about this revenge on society as well.

949
01:10:18.680 --> 01:10:22.960
<v Speaker 6>Anthony Mioli does a very interesting statistic and you remark

950
01:10:23.039 --> 01:10:26.279
<v Speaker 6>that is very interesting about this one to two percent

951
01:10:26.319 --> 01:10:31.079
<v Speaker 6>of serial killers in his experience, are people that would

952
01:10:31.199 --> 01:10:33.880
<v Speaker 6>pose a body like Danny rolling dish.

953
01:10:34.039 --> 01:10:38.600
<v Speaker 2>Oh, yes, okay, Well, there's an extra emphasis on anything

954
01:10:38.720 --> 01:10:42.760
<v Speaker 2>you do at a homicide beyond just ending the life

955
01:10:42.760 --> 01:10:45.920
<v Speaker 2>of the victim. If you have ended the life of

956
01:10:45.960 --> 01:10:51.039
<v Speaker 2>the victim, the hitman's point of view, or the businessman's

957
01:10:51.079 --> 01:10:53.880
<v Speaker 2>point of view is get the heck out of dodge

958
01:10:54.439 --> 01:10:59.640
<v Speaker 2>and live to kill again another day for whatever reason.

959
01:11:00.479 --> 01:11:03.279
<v Speaker 2>If you do any if you stay there at the

960
01:11:03.359 --> 01:11:05.840
<v Speaker 2>scene of a crime, for any reason, it has to

961
01:11:05.880 --> 01:11:11.720
<v Speaker 2>be given great weight because what were you doing?

962
01:11:13.359 --> 01:11:14.600
<v Speaker 1>That's right, that was.

963
01:11:14.560 --> 01:11:20.560
<v Speaker 2>More important than getting out of getting away getting away

964
01:11:20.560 --> 01:11:25.680
<v Speaker 2>with murder. Why were you still there? Well, there was

965
01:11:25.840 --> 01:11:28.600
<v Speaker 2>more to do. And the way he would express it

966
01:11:28.720 --> 01:11:33.439
<v Speaker 2>he would go into a spiritual terminology and to say

967
01:11:33.479 --> 01:11:38.279
<v Speaker 2>that he had to exemplify evil, pure evil, and that

968
01:11:38.359 --> 01:11:44.640
<v Speaker 2>he had to destroy the works of God, the human figures,

969
01:11:44.680 --> 01:11:47.399
<v Speaker 2>the works of God, the beauty of the works of God,

970
01:11:48.039 --> 01:11:52.960
<v Speaker 2>that he had to destroy that because why. And that

971
01:11:53.039 --> 01:11:55.600
<v Speaker 2>took a while, because he kept saying, well, I don't

972
01:11:55.640 --> 01:11:58.960
<v Speaker 2>know why. And he gets saying I don't have a message.

973
01:11:59.119 --> 01:12:01.439
<v Speaker 2>And I said, well, oh, everyone says you do, and

974
01:12:01.520 --> 01:12:06.159
<v Speaker 2>so and he said, any days, any message, it's geminized MESSAGESLF. Well,

975
01:12:06.319 --> 01:12:10.079
<v Speaker 2>you asked Gemini, you know him, I don't, And so

976
01:12:10.399 --> 01:12:16.640
<v Speaker 2>eventually it just came through from that type of dialogue

977
01:12:18.279 --> 01:12:22.840
<v Speaker 2>saying that evil walks this world like a natural man

978
01:12:23.760 --> 01:12:28.520
<v Speaker 2>and that he was there to show that evil is real.

979
01:12:30.359 --> 01:12:33.199
<v Speaker 2>So that's as far as we're going to get with that,

980
01:12:33.479 --> 01:12:38.920
<v Speaker 2>my friend, Well, there's no other source. There's no other

981
01:12:39.079 --> 01:12:41.439
<v Speaker 2>source on that. That's as far as it goes.

982
01:12:43.840 --> 01:12:48.960
<v Speaker 6>You talk about that while his case was ongoing and

983
01:12:49.039 --> 01:12:52.560
<v Speaker 6>while his life was in jeopardy. Yeah, he cared. He

984
01:12:52.680 --> 01:12:55.720
<v Speaker 6>cared very much about this book, and he cared very

985
01:12:55.760 --> 01:12:58.920
<v Speaker 6>much about your agreement. We haven't mentioned that is that

986
01:12:58.960 --> 01:13:01.359
<v Speaker 6>you were very experienced with other people. And what was

987
01:13:01.479 --> 01:13:06.039
<v Speaker 6>unique was your agreement with Danny Rowling. What was unique

988
01:13:06.119 --> 01:13:08.960
<v Speaker 6>about what he did concerning your agreement?

989
01:13:09.479 --> 01:13:14.880
<v Speaker 2>Mm, well, what was unique is did Danny you would

990
01:13:14.920 --> 01:13:18.199
<v Speaker 2>think that someone would be thinking about their case and

991
01:13:18.279 --> 01:13:21.880
<v Speaker 2>he he never expressed any interest in it, and things

992
01:13:21.880 --> 01:13:24.520
<v Speaker 2>will appear in the news, and I would think that

993
01:13:24.800 --> 01:13:27.159
<v Speaker 2>I want to know his reaction. He didn't even know

994
01:13:27.600 --> 01:13:31.239
<v Speaker 2>he would get the the the uh legal work in

995
01:13:31.279 --> 01:13:34.880
<v Speaker 2>the mail, not even open it, and uh he when

996
01:13:34.880 --> 01:13:37.840
<v Speaker 2>it came time for him to plead, decided what to plead.

997
01:13:37.880 --> 01:13:40.520
<v Speaker 2>He wrote to me and he said, there there were

998
01:13:40.600 --> 01:13:43.319
<v Speaker 2>several things I need to consider and when I plead,

999
01:13:43.560 --> 01:13:46.119
<v Speaker 2>And the first number one how is this going to

1000
01:13:46.159 --> 01:13:52.199
<v Speaker 2>affect our story? And then there were two other things.

1001
01:13:52.279 --> 01:13:55.840
<v Speaker 2>The last one was the victim's families. And then he

1002
01:13:55.920 --> 01:13:59.479
<v Speaker 2>went into his discussion of his bullet points, and he

1003
01:14:00.319 --> 01:14:03.840
<v Speaker 2>talk totally about how is this going to affect our story?

1004
01:14:04.199 --> 01:14:07.079
<v Speaker 2>He never got to the part about the victim's family

1005
01:14:08.479 --> 01:14:13.920
<v Speaker 2>item that he listed. And I called his lawyers when

1006
01:14:13.920 --> 01:14:15.960
<v Speaker 2>I got this letter, and I said, you better go

1007
01:14:16.079 --> 01:14:19.880
<v Speaker 2>down there and get a hold of him. I said,

1008
01:14:20.119 --> 01:14:24.119
<v Speaker 2>he is more concerned about this story than he is

1009
01:14:24.159 --> 01:14:27.399
<v Speaker 2>about his own life. And his lawyers said to me,

1010
01:14:28.079 --> 01:14:31.960
<v Speaker 2>that's how it's always been with Danny.

1011
01:14:31.920 --> 01:14:39.000
<v Speaker 6>Yeah, you do an interview with Ron and Ron and

1012
01:14:39.039 --> 01:14:42.159
<v Speaker 6>what I found interesting is, again I mentioned it again,

1013
01:14:42.279 --> 01:14:46.439
<v Speaker 6>is that you provide you include information and material in

1014
01:14:46.479 --> 01:14:50.279
<v Speaker 6>this book that many people would not include. They would

1015
01:14:50.319 --> 01:14:53.520
<v Speaker 6>take out anything where like a negative review. People would

1016
01:14:53.560 --> 01:14:54.960
<v Speaker 6>if they had their way, they would take all of

1017
01:14:54.960 --> 01:14:56.800
<v Speaker 6>those and never ever get to see them. But you've

1018
01:14:56.800 --> 01:15:01.039
<v Speaker 6>included this and one of the biggest change exchanges on

1019
01:15:01.079 --> 01:15:04.600
<v Speaker 6>this radio show is that callers call in and talk

1020
01:15:04.640 --> 01:15:08.279
<v Speaker 6>about your culpability and that you should fry along with

1021
01:15:08.720 --> 01:15:12.680
<v Speaker 6>oh yeah, and that they can't understand your viewpoint on

1022
01:15:12.720 --> 01:15:15.800
<v Speaker 6>the death penalty. So you do talk about that viewpoint,

1023
01:15:16.439 --> 01:15:21.560
<v Speaker 6>tell us how you feel and what people might say

1024
01:15:20.960 --> 01:15:25.000
<v Speaker 6>in contrast to what you're saying about the death penalty.

1025
01:15:25.640 --> 01:15:30.039
<v Speaker 2>About the death penalty, I say that if you have

1026
01:15:30.880 --> 01:15:33.880
<v Speaker 2>a feeling in your heart and you cultivate it that

1027
01:15:34.000 --> 01:15:38.439
<v Speaker 2>you want someone to be killed, then you are exactly

1028
01:15:38.600 --> 01:15:44.199
<v Speaker 2>the same as a murderer, because murder under even under

1029
01:15:44.199 --> 01:15:47.760
<v Speaker 2>the law, doesn't exist unless you have men's rea or

1030
01:15:47.760 --> 01:15:51.680
<v Speaker 2>the guilty mind. So you could literally kill someone, but

1031
01:15:51.760 --> 01:15:54.640
<v Speaker 2>if you didn't have that evil intention in your heart,

1032
01:15:54.760 --> 01:15:58.800
<v Speaker 2>it wouldn't be murdered. Okay. That's what makes it murder,

1033
01:15:59.560 --> 01:16:03.399
<v Speaker 2>is that tension in your heart. So if this is

1034
01:16:03.479 --> 01:16:10.000
<v Speaker 2>the intention that you're expressing, it's ironic because you're blaming

1035
01:16:10.159 --> 01:16:16.319
<v Speaker 2>someone else for being homicidal while you are expressing the

1036
01:16:16.439 --> 01:16:23.159
<v Speaker 2>desire for a living person to be killed. And I

1037
01:16:23.199 --> 01:16:27.159
<v Speaker 2>wish that that irony were made more prominent if it

1038
01:16:27.199 --> 01:16:28.039
<v Speaker 2>were possible.

1039
01:16:29.760 --> 01:16:32.680
<v Speaker 6>And you say too, that this is evidenced by people

1040
01:16:32.880 --> 01:16:36.600
<v Speaker 6>literally jumping up and down with glee and rejoicing. This

1041
01:16:36.680 --> 01:16:40.119
<v Speaker 6>is not a somber, you know, closure thing. This is

1042
01:16:40.479 --> 01:16:42.439
<v Speaker 6>exactly what you describe.

1043
01:16:42.640 --> 01:16:44.680
<v Speaker 2>Well, And that's why I wrote the song, and they

1044
01:16:44.720 --> 01:16:49.000
<v Speaker 2>played the song on the radio. And I wrote the

1045
01:16:49.039 --> 01:16:53.520
<v Speaker 2>song after going through the murder trial there with Rolling

1046
01:16:53.960 --> 01:16:56.960
<v Speaker 2>and it was so traumatic. I remember that I lost

1047
01:16:57.000 --> 01:17:03.640
<v Speaker 2>my voice and only got my voice back while I

1048
01:17:03.800 --> 01:17:09.640
<v Speaker 2>was driving back home from Gainesville and making up the song.

1049
01:17:10.479 --> 01:17:12.960
<v Speaker 2>I got my voice back by singing this song. I

1050
01:17:13.079 --> 01:17:22.840
<v Speaker 2>was writing about death row and the verse about the

1051
01:17:22.840 --> 01:17:26.239
<v Speaker 2>the those who are dancing, I'll just tell you it says,

1052
01:17:26.840 --> 01:17:30.279
<v Speaker 2>undead memories of the lives you've taken. They won't let

1053
01:17:30.359 --> 01:17:33.880
<v Speaker 2>you rest. Every night you'll awake and they're dancing on

1054
01:17:33.920 --> 01:17:39.199
<v Speaker 2>your grave, demanding nothing less than your whole life. Cause

1055
01:17:39.239 --> 01:17:42.439
<v Speaker 2>you've been dancing with the reaper. Now every day you

1056
01:17:42.520 --> 01:17:47.560
<v Speaker 2>see him in your own eyes. So this goes on,

1057
01:17:47.680 --> 01:17:49.880
<v Speaker 2>and then at the end I speak, and this is

1058
01:17:49.920 --> 01:17:53.119
<v Speaker 2>what I would like to say. If I only had

1059
01:17:53.199 --> 01:17:57.680
<v Speaker 2>a few words. My last words would be Execution makes

1060
01:17:57.840 --> 01:18:01.920
<v Speaker 2>us killers too. I know, well I'm a killer, and

1061
01:18:02.039 --> 01:18:08.199
<v Speaker 2>so are you. Vengeance demands the killer die. When will

1062
01:18:08.239 --> 01:18:13.399
<v Speaker 2>we stop? And wonder why God help us.

1063
01:18:13.439 --> 01:18:23.680
<v Speaker 6>Ale Yes, it's a very, very fascinating collection you've put together.

1064
01:18:24.199 --> 01:18:27.960
<v Speaker 6>Danny Rowling serial Killer Interviews. I want to thank you

1065
01:18:28.079 --> 01:18:32.479
<v Speaker 6>very much for this again fascinating interview for those that

1066
01:18:32.560 --> 01:18:34.199
<v Speaker 6>might want to take a look at other work or

1067
01:18:34.279 --> 01:18:38.239
<v Speaker 6>find this out. Can you tell us about the Amazon page, website, etc.

1068
01:18:40.079 --> 01:18:42.920
<v Speaker 2>Well, my books are on Amazon, but I'd like people

1069
01:18:42.960 --> 01:18:45.199
<v Speaker 2>to know that I have a website called songs a

1070
01:18:45.399 --> 01:18:49.279
<v Speaker 2>London dot com and if you go there and there

1071
01:18:49.359 --> 01:18:54.880
<v Speaker 2>are excerpts from all the books and then links appear

1072
01:18:54.960 --> 01:18:58.319
<v Speaker 2>there to the Amazon page where you can buy it,

1073
01:18:58.800 --> 01:19:04.520
<v Speaker 2>but you can get pre use and reviews. As Dan mentioned,

1074
01:19:04.920 --> 01:19:08.439
<v Speaker 2>the bitter with the Sweet, you know, that's that's what

1075
01:19:08.520 --> 01:19:10.279
<v Speaker 2>controversy means.

1076
01:19:10.880 --> 01:19:15.319
<v Speaker 6>Yeah. Absolutely, it's an impressive, impressive collection and I think

1077
01:19:15.359 --> 01:19:17.600
<v Speaker 6>it'll be a collector's item. As to tell you the truth,

1078
01:19:17.680 --> 01:19:20.239
<v Speaker 6>I really do. Thank you so much for coming on

1079
01:19:20.319 --> 01:19:22.840
<v Speaker 6>and talking about this latest Danny Rolling serial Killer and

1080
01:19:22.880 --> 01:19:26.399
<v Speaker 6>we look forward to speaking to you again when finally

1081
01:19:26.439 --> 01:19:29.199
<v Speaker 6>you talk about Beyond the making of a serial Killer.

1082
01:19:29.600 --> 01:19:32.039
<v Speaker 6>Thank you so much, Sondra London. You have a great

1083
01:19:32.039 --> 01:19:35.079
<v Speaker 6>evening and hope you're talking again.

1084
01:19:35.199 --> 01:19:38.359
<v Speaker 2>So much. Dan I'm always happy to appear on your show.

1085
01:19:39.439 --> 01:19:41.560
<v Speaker 6>Thank you so much, it's always a pleasure. You have

1086
01:19:41.600 --> 01:19:42.199
<v Speaker 6>a great inning.

1087
01:19:43.199 --> 01:19:43.600
<v Speaker 2>Good night,