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Speaker 5: You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking
Speaker 5: Killers in True crime History and the authors that have
Speaker 5: written about him, Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker, Bck. Every
Speaker 5: week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and
Speaker 5: infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your
Speaker 5: host journalist and author Dan Zufanski.
Speaker 6: Good Evening. Criminologist Anthony Mioli said, Sondra London broke round
Speaker 6: in publishing the Confessions of serial killer Danny Rowling, but
Speaker 6: only part of that story could be told in nineteen
Speaker 6: ninety six. Now, in this unique new volume, the controversy
Speaker 6: surrounding the making of a serial killer is revealed in
Speaker 6: a series of interviews and appearances including NBC Dateline, Court
Speaker 6: TV Talk Radio and Courtroom Drama. The only shows off
Speaker 6: Rolling's art with a stunning painting Rolling called his masterpiece
Speaker 6: and his handwritten explanation of its symbolism. Podcasters Dan Supaski
Speaker 6: True Murder and Ariel Kooxie Malice share thought provoking conversations
Speaker 6: that elicit new revelations about London's work with Rolling, and
Speaker 6: in a sensational Secret interview with Rolling is finally revealed.
Speaker 6: The book that we're featuring this evening is Danny Rolling
Speaker 6: Serial Killer Interviews with my special guest, journalists and author
Speaker 6: Sondra London. Welcome back to the program, and thank you
Speaker 6: so much for this interview, Sondra London.
Speaker 2: Oh, dame, it's always a pleasure to be a guest
Speaker 2: on your show. You're such a good host and you
Speaker 2: ask some great questions.
Speaker 6: Huh. Thank you so much. Your a great guest and
Speaker 6: one of the most thought provoking programs that we ever
Speaker 6: have are when you appear. So let's get right to this.
Speaker 6: You appeared recently on True Murder. We talked about the
Speaker 6: making of a serial killer and why this book at
Speaker 6: this time and why this approach.
Speaker 2: Okay, well, you know I set out to do an intensive,
Speaker 2: in depth study of Danny Rowling, and I didn't have
Speaker 2: any structures upon me, no deadline, or nobody to please,
Speaker 2: so it was a completely untrammeled research project that went
Speaker 2: on about six years directly with Danny Rowling, and my
Speaker 2: goal there was to learn because I had been presented
Speaker 2: with the mystery of the mind of a serial killer
Speaker 2: years before in the person of Gerard John Schaeffer. And
Speaker 2: when I got through working with Shaeffer and published the
Speaker 2: book Killer Fiction, I still was not done. I still
Speaker 2: was mystified by this phenomenon. So when Danny Rowling contacted
Speaker 2: me and offered me the privilege of access to him,
Speaker 2: I considered it a great privilege, and I was very
Speaker 2: happy to be able to allow to do this course
Speaker 2: of study under whatever I had no idea of. No
Speaker 2: one could imagine the conditions that developed from me doing
Speaker 2: this story, but I was very committed to doing this,
Speaker 2: so at any rate, we did the book. Well. It
Speaker 2: turns out that doing the book is historian itself, and
Speaker 2: a book can only be one book link long, and
Speaker 2: so far as I'm concerned, one subject. So out of
Speaker 2: all that work, the Making of a serial Killer, it
Speaker 2: runs about two hundred pages, and it's only the material
Speaker 2: that really relates to that title, and I only covered
Speaker 2: that much. But in the course of working the Danny
Speaker 2: Rowlings of an enormous amount of material was generated. And
Speaker 2: I would like to think I was done with that
Speaker 2: case by doing the Making of a Serial Killer, But
Speaker 2: it turns out there's some really, really more interesting things
Speaker 2: that follow on, And so I purposed to do a
Speaker 2: book I call Beyond the Making of a Serial Killer.
Speaker 2: And I got about one hundred and fifty pages into
Speaker 2: that project when now you did my interview with Anthony
Speaker 2: me only Oh my goodness. This turned out to be
Speaker 2: a four hour marathon interview and we just we just
Speaker 2: stayed on it and very wide ranging topics from other
Speaker 2: cases that he and I had both worked. And we're
Speaker 2: talking so much about the use of the artwork as
Speaker 2: being able to convey the essence of the personality. And
Speaker 2: so those are the things that we talked about. And well,
Speaker 2: it turned out to be about one hundred and twenty
Speaker 2: pages long, and I said, wow, you know it's going
Speaker 2: to take over the whole book. And so I said,
Speaker 2: you know what, let me just break that out into
Speaker 2: another book and put some more interviews in it, and
Speaker 2: just do a book only of interviews. So in my mind,
Speaker 2: I thought I had all these interviews transcribed and I
Speaker 2: would just kind of, you know, I'll slap this together
Speaker 2: and no time at all, it would be like it
Speaker 2: did itself. You know, it didn't turn out that way.
Speaker 2: Transcribing is very hard. I used to be a professional
Speaker 2: transcriptionist for medical but not now. I don't want to
Speaker 2: do any more transcribing because and then you use the
Speaker 2: robot and you get all the us and ums, and
Speaker 2: you know, it's more work to go through there and
Speaker 2: pick them out than it would be if you just
Speaker 2: sat and typed it. So anyway, that was my concept.
Speaker 2: That was why I decided to do this book, and
Speaker 2: I decided to get this out and then go back
Speaker 2: to work on Beyond the Making of a Serial Killer,
Speaker 2: which is really back more to the subject of Danny
Speaker 2: Rowling's crimes, because in that book, I will reveal the
Speaker 2: confessions to the triple murder in Louisiana, and I'm also
Speaker 2: including some of Danny Rowling's fiction. He had specialized on
Speaker 2: a long project called the Legends of the Black Marsh,
Speaker 2: kind of like fairy tales from the Middle Ages with
Speaker 2: witches and gypsies and princes and princesses and you know,
Speaker 2: fiery steeds, you know, But he did within that body
Speaker 2: of work he started doing contemporary fiction. He still called
Speaker 2: it Legends of the Black Marsh, but it wasn't it
Speaker 2: was contemporary. So I put a couple of those in there,
Speaker 2: because he deals. The protagonist in the story is, of
Speaker 2: course Danny Rowling right, So it's another way to see it.
Speaker 2: So that's what's going to be in beyond the making
Speaker 2: of a serial killer when I get it done. Meanwhile,
Speaker 2: I put out this book of interviews, and to me,
Speaker 2: it's not like what you'd call a regular true crime book.
Speaker 2: It's more like a magazine in a way, because you
Speaker 2: can pick up any part and just read that part.
Speaker 2: You don't have to read it in order, and in fact,
Speaker 2: there is no order. It's not in chronological order by
Speaker 2: any means. If anything, it's the opposite. Because I put
Speaker 2: the interview with Meoli up front. I just feel that
Speaker 2: it's very conversational and there's lots of interesting artwork. At
Speaker 2: the end of when Meoli and I have our little chat,
Speaker 2: there's a story that the any rolling Road for Meoli
Speaker 2: and it's included here, and it's called Rooftop. So he
Speaker 2: wrote that story after he left my companionship and my elaboration,
Speaker 2: and I made some observations about how Danny had changed
Speaker 2: since we last worked together, and it comes out in
Speaker 2: that story. I included his handwriting because it's become starting
Speaker 2: to annoy me. People are saying that he didn't write
Speaker 2: anything that I wrote. It okay, And I find myself
Speaker 2: having to defend myself in the form of putting the handwriting,
Speaker 2: and I clean up the image from artifacts so you
Speaker 2: don't see the wrinkles and that you just see a
Speaker 2: black and white image of his what he inscribed against
Speaker 2: the white page. And there's a lot of information in that.
Speaker 2: You know, there's a whole body of study about handwriting
Speaker 2: graphology and people who say that your handwriting reveals things
Speaker 2: about yourself. And so I considered that as much a
Speaker 2: part of it as a drawing of a face. Right here,
Speaker 2: he's using his whole self to inscribe these words. They're
Speaker 2: not edited. There's no sound for London in the mix.
Speaker 2: Uh So there, that's it. So that's just please don't
Speaker 2: pursue that area of inquiry because it's fruitless. That would
Speaker 2: defeat my whole purpose in being there. If I wanted
Speaker 2: to make things up, I would write fiction.
Speaker 6: Mm hmm. Right now, the thing is you you, it's
Speaker 6: we need to explain or you need to explain that
Speaker 6: not only had me only spoken to many other killers
Speaker 6: before he had a chance to this six hour face
Speaker 6: to face with Rolling, but did you had also spoke
Speaker 6: to several serial Killers before you got a chance to
Speaker 6: speak to Rolling. So the thing is that when you
Speaker 6: gave you write that you gave him basically a creative
Speaker 6: writing a crash creative writing course, so that he was
Speaker 6: able to be able to communicate. And also as just
Speaker 6: from the very beginning he used artwork and symbols and
Speaker 6: you can explain, but the way he expressed himself, so
Speaker 6: it wasn't like you were directing him to do this,
Speaker 6: which just happens to be very entertaining way of presentation.
Speaker 6: Like you say, very much like a magazine though with artwork, poems, writing,
Speaker 6: it's very very decorative. Tell us why was essential that
Speaker 6: he communicate this way?
Speaker 2: Well, I did work with a famous author by the
Speaker 2: name of Joel Norris who wrote this book Serial Killers
Speaker 2: to growing right, and people probably don't realize he had
Speaker 2: a degree in art therapy. Well, I worked with him,
Speaker 2: and we worked and interviewed artist Tool and he was illiterate. Okay,
Speaker 2: So at that point when I began to work with Tool,
Speaker 2: I had gone from Schaeffer who had a degree in
Speaker 2: creative writing and criminal justice double bachelor's degrees, to artist Tool,
Speaker 2: who was functionally Elizabeth And I said, well, how am
Speaker 2: I gonna get me anything from him? And it was
Speaker 2: then that I introduced the very idea that I later
Speaker 2: called killer art. And I'm just like, well, you can't write,
Speaker 2: send me pictures. And so then we got to meet
Speaker 2: him and questioned him about his pictures in person and
Speaker 2: do a drawing there and you know, watch him do it,
Speaker 2: work with him on that. So I learned how you
Speaker 2: can use that form of expression, and then if you
Speaker 2: want to, you can go further and delve with the
Speaker 2: person and say, you know, well, I see why that
Speaker 2: your figure is missing one part of the body's what's missing.
Speaker 2: And they can't even figure out that they haven't drawn
Speaker 2: any feet on it. And that has to do with
Speaker 2: not being grounded literally, because our psychology and our body
Speaker 2: are intimately they're they're part of the same entity. Okay,
Speaker 2: So it's like you can't separate your foot from your leg.
Speaker 2: You can't separate your psychological or spiritual self from your body.
Speaker 2: So when the body does, if you want to know
Speaker 2: about the mind, then you can delve in that direction.
Speaker 2: When with Danny Rowling, we were participating consensually in revealing
Speaker 2: the inner workings of his mind. And he has often
Speaker 2: said I don't understand myself. When asked if he was
Speaker 2: dangerous over me, he was killed again and he said,
Speaker 2: you know, I really can't say. You know, he says,
Speaker 2: my mind has betrayed me and I really don't know.
Speaker 2: So and then look at the appearance he made in court.
Speaker 2: It's so famous. They played this on TV all the time,
Speaker 2: where he sings to me and I'm standing there looking
Speaker 2: really sappy and he's singing away. But listen to the
Speaker 2: words he's the words are what were my words? All
Speaker 2: my tears run together? What were my words? Because at
Speaker 2: that point it was understood that, you know, he was
Speaker 2: half unconscious and youth in the arts, the music gestures
Speaker 2: anything nonverbal is closer to the unconscious. You're trying to
Speaker 2: probe and to the unconscious and find out what's hiding
Speaker 2: in there and who is Jemini? You know, and you
Speaker 2: know in order to get to that level, you can't.
Speaker 2: The person is not a machine that you walk up
Speaker 2: and put a quarter in and you get your answers
Speaker 2: on ice.
Speaker 6: That's right.
Speaker 2: What you get depends on you have to give. You
Speaker 2: have to participate to get anything of any lasting significance.
Speaker 6: You talk about the the use of the third person
Speaker 6: narrative to be able to explain things and not be
Speaker 6: able to admit the things but in this other personality.
Speaker 6: And Ted Bundy is a famous case, but you also
Speaker 6: talk about you know, you also talked about him, Danny Rowling,
Speaker 6: being able to do that as well. You say that
Speaker 6: this is necessary.
Speaker 2: Why, well, there's too much pain involved, isn't there. I mean,
Speaker 2: for such a dramatic breakdown of the one's nature to occur,
Speaker 2: you have to have an enormous amount of trauma and
Speaker 2: pain behind it.
Speaker 6: And so.
Speaker 2: Going into that it's not easy and it's not fun,
Speaker 2: and it can really you know, throw your schedule off
Speaker 2: for your regularly scheduled activities because you can break yourself
Speaker 2: down going back into that place where you were broke down.
Speaker 2: I remember when I co authored this book with Diane Fitzpatrick,
Speaker 2: and she had been under several forms of torture, especially
Speaker 2: as a child, and we worked all that out, took
Speaker 2: thirteen years, and at the end it was a comment
Speaker 2: that she made to me, you know, now I don't
Speaker 2: have to go down into the hole anymore. I've been there.
Speaker 2: I know what it is. It's the whole.
Speaker 6: Yeah.
Speaker 2: So you and coming to terms with these painful traumas
Speaker 2: is what I would call the subject. There is a
Speaker 2: painful experience.
Speaker 6: You talk about that. Anthony Meoli, like yourself, considered him
Speaker 6: quite unique. Uh In when he asked him questions again
Speaker 6: and this third person narrative that he would respond. He
Speaker 6: asked him about the three murders in Louisiana and he
Speaker 6: said that his eyes changed, and you commented that that
Speaker 6: was very similar to your experience. Tell us about what
Speaker 6: you discussed about this change when they were discussing these
Speaker 6: murders and this exchange between me and rolling.
Speaker 2: Well, I'm sorry, I can't address your question directly. I
Speaker 2: can talk about a little bit about that, though. You
Speaker 2: could say, you know what, he's one of those people
Speaker 2: with those hazel eyes anyway, you know, and it's quite
Speaker 2: common for people to say those people's eyes change, isn't it.
Speaker 2: You don't hear that much about brown eyed people's eyes changing.
Speaker 2: But he has those kind of in the middle, you know,
Speaker 2: kind of a pale eyes, so for his eyes to change. Now,
Speaker 2: remember Anthony Muoli was there in person with Danny, and
Speaker 2: I have never been allowed to be there in person
Speaker 2: with Danny. All of our work was in writing and
Speaker 2: it's really as we experienced it. At the time, we
Speaker 2: wanted visitation. The state knew we wanted visitation, so they
Speaker 2: withheld it to manipulate him to confess. Okay, So being
Speaker 2: in the middle in the first person, it was, well,
Speaker 2: we just want to have the station so we can
Speaker 2: talk about the things about his life story and his crimes. Well,
Speaker 2: the state thought they were hurting us by denying that,
Speaker 2: but guess what all that did was ensure that everything
Speaker 2: we did was in writing. So there's no question did
Speaker 2: it happen or not. There's no question is this sound
Speaker 2: for London saying this or is it Danny Rowling saying it?
Speaker 2: Because every single thing that happened is in writing. So
Speaker 2: I think it's kind of ironic that in the attempt
Speaker 2: to defeat our purpose and to make me stop doing
Speaker 2: my project, they really were part of helping to create
Speaker 2: it as the a very useful document historically, because it
Speaker 2: is a document. It isn't just me saying this.
Speaker 6: This information that Meoli gathered, and he's a respected criminologist.
Speaker 6: You interviewed him extensively and shared a lot of the things.
Speaker 6: You've shared a lot of the same ideas. It was
Speaker 6: certainly about the value of the art work, and not
Speaker 6: so much interpretive, but just in whatever he thought he
Speaker 6: was communicating. It was very interesting that he had an
Speaker 6: extensive painting collection given to him by Danny Rolling. So
Speaker 6: both you have extensive art collections, Yes, from Danny Rolling,
Speaker 6: don't you.
Speaker 2: I think it's very interesting. And in fact, Meoli wants
Speaker 2: to do a book of Killer art and he wants me,
Speaker 2: you know, the co author, and I'm not sure what
Speaker 2: I can contribute to the one.
Speaker 6: With all the artwork.
Speaker 2: He has probably the biggest artwork Killer artwork collection extant today,
Speaker 2: and I encouraged him to do it. I wish he
Speaker 2: would put out a full color book of his art collection.
Speaker 6: So this is impressive, the collection that you put together.
Speaker 6: Here some of the examples of Danny Rolling's art. But
Speaker 6: also we've got to say that also some of your
Speaker 6: own sketches of Danny Rolling are quite interesting and I
Speaker 6: was impressed with them.
Speaker 2: So you you know, people ask why are all these
Speaker 2: prisoners so talented? And my answer is, well, if we
Speaker 2: locked you up in a cage and took your TVU
Speaker 2: and everything else away, and your visits and all your
Speaker 2: other activities, and gave you a piece of paper and
Speaker 2: a pencil, all that we'd find out you had talent too,
Speaker 2: you know. I think it's just something that we don't
Speaker 2: do much these days, take a penant, paper, you know.
Speaker 2: But I think it's it's not that exceptional, and I
Speaker 2: think it looks more exceptional when you look at prisoner. Prisoners,
Speaker 2: but jet remembered they're they're in a cage. They're deprived
Speaker 2: of normal lives, is the main thing about a prisoner,
Speaker 2: you know.
Speaker 5: Mm hmm.
Speaker 2: Uh.
Speaker 6: Let's talk about an interview you had with Don Snyder
Speaker 6: or pardon me, an interview Don Snyder had with Danny Rowling.
Speaker 6: And then you've got a copy of this after they
Speaker 6: killed this story. Well it was from People magazine, I
Speaker 6: believe at that time. Tell us a little bit about this, uh,
Speaker 6: this tape and really, what did you what did you
Speaker 6: learn from listening to it?
Speaker 2: Don Snyder was uh had been pre eminent in that
Speaker 2: whole media empire for years before they even founded People magazines,
Speaker 2: and he was like a kind of a senior journalist
Speaker 2: emeritus working on special projects at will and so within
Speaker 2: that context, and he had contacted me, he came to
Speaker 2: visit me, and he had some kind of politicerprise winning
Speaker 2: photographer with him took all these pictures. And but Don
Speaker 2: Sider was very, very thoughtful and in depth thinker, and
Speaker 2: he spent enough time with me to find out that
Speaker 2: I think there I'm just not going to say he
Speaker 2: said this, but I think he found out that what
Speaker 2: they wanted was not the real story. And he said
Speaker 2: he had come to respect me. I sent me Christmas
Speaker 2: cards and checked up on me from time to time.
Speaker 2: And so when he went in and got that tape,
Speaker 2: and so when they killed the story, I took it
Speaker 2: as a gesture of his own personal goodwill that he
Speaker 2: gave me that tape. He said, it's yours. Do whatever
Speaker 2: you want with it, because evidently there was some kind
Speaker 2: of kind of a you know, get a kind of
Speaker 2: program going on there, reaching through People magazine, and evidently
Speaker 2: Don Cider didn't want to play to that audience, right,
Speaker 2: So that's how we got the tape. Now, what did
Speaker 2: I learn from that tape? I was able to really
Speaker 2: hear Danny change personalities in an audio in real time,
Speaker 2: and that was kind of shocking. First time I heard it,
Speaker 2: I was like, who's that? A different voice comes in,
Speaker 2: you know, and I was like, what, wait a minute.
Speaker 2: When he says, oh my god, that's him, and he
Speaker 2: tells this part where he's talking about how Gemini came
Speaker 2: and whispered in his ear and all, and he uses
Speaker 2: the voice of Gemini and it's kind of a whisper,
Speaker 2: and he whispers the words that jem and I said
Speaker 2: to him. And then right after that, then he says,
Speaker 2: in Danny's voice, he says, and I let that thing
Speaker 2: into me. I let that Gemini spirit into me. And
Speaker 2: you can tell you can hear him changing his point
Speaker 2: of view.
Speaker 6: Yeah, well incredible.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So that was really that was really important in
Speaker 2: my uh, in terms of understanding him, because I, like
Speaker 2: I said that dissociation is normal. We all do it.
Speaker 2: And if I'm if you're there playing with your two
Speaker 2: year old child and you talk and baby talk and
Speaker 2: your boss calls you, you pick up the phone your
Speaker 2: you don't talk baby talk to your boss, you instantly
Speaker 2: react in a different mode without thinking. Because that's normal,
Speaker 2: you see, it's normal to have different presentations for different circumstances.
Speaker 2: What the difference there between normal and Danny Rowling is
Speaker 2: that his condition was so much more extreme that that
Speaker 2: he had lost control of it, and if you were
Speaker 2: just normal, you could control and modulate your presentation accordingly.
Speaker 2: You know, whether you're with the you know, leading the
Speaker 2: brownie troop, or whether you're the CEO you know of
Speaker 2: a company deploying one hundred and fifty people, you could
Speaker 2: easily do both things. It's not any kind of weird
Speaker 2: pathology involved. The way we get into the weird pathology
Speaker 2: is when the break is so strong, it's so extreme,
Speaker 2: that the different ways of being don't they're not merged,
Speaker 2: they don't flow one to the other. It's rigid, they're separated.
Speaker 2: You get one or the other.
Speaker 6: Your philosophy is throughout this entire book as well. We're
Speaker 6: we talking about censorship. Of course, that's raised in this
Speaker 6: book as well through some of the interviews and some
Speaker 6: of the things that you were subjected to. And it's
Speaker 6: very very interesting that you were able to provide this
Speaker 6: in this book to show that again, the philosophy of
Speaker 6: the entire truth, I think, especially in ninety six was
Speaker 6: something novel and I still think it is. Maybe you
Speaker 6: can explain what you mean by that and why you're
Speaker 6: not an apologist for all the graphic detail and all
Speaker 6: of the things that Danny Rowling was willing to say
Speaker 6: about the truth about.
Speaker 2: The murders, Well, you just lay out about a whole
Speaker 2: book's worth of dissertation for me to respond to. I
Speaker 2: don't know. I'll probably won't cover all that, So let
Speaker 2: me know what I leave out there. The issue about
Speaker 2: censorship and telling the whole ugly truth. I will directly
Speaker 2: connect that to Gerard John Schaeffer, because that was his philosophy,
Speaker 2: and I fought him on this, and I refused to
Speaker 2: publish things that he sent me. If you want to
Speaker 2: call it censorship, you could call it that. And he
Speaker 2: continually argued his position that it was important for me
Speaker 2: to recognize that we're dealing with pathology, and if you
Speaker 2: don't present the pathology, it is a cheat. So I
Speaker 2: got that from John Shaeffer, and like I say, that
Speaker 2: was not my own idea. I had to be convinced
Speaker 2: of it. And so once he condensed me, then I
Speaker 2: begin to see it that way, because I begin to
Speaker 2: see that entertainment uses mortality as a dramatic device, and
Speaker 2: we use the idea that someone might die or be
Speaker 2: killed to build interest in a story, and sects it
Speaker 2: up to because we're talking literally about life and death.
Speaker 2: There's nothing more interesting than life and death. So entertainment
Speaker 2: requires that you produce a feeling of wanting to buy
Speaker 2: the sponsor's product at the end of the experience, so
Speaker 2: they don't really serve their interest to take you on
Speaker 2: a trip that you know, a horror is a true
Speaker 2: horror show will leave you unsettled, you wondering. You know,
Speaker 2: if your next door neighbor might like autist tool said,
Speaker 2: just pick up an ac accent, start hitting you with it.
Speaker 2: And that's what he said. He said, anybody can go
Speaker 2: off anytime, you don't know, but to think that way,
Speaker 2: to leave your audience that way, is not a satisfying
Speaker 2: esthetic experience. Now you know, Shakespeare was a success. He
Speaker 2: was the rock star of his time, and he never
Speaker 2: let a play end without leaving the stage littered with corpses. Yeah, okay,
Speaker 2: So to present that experience to the audience in a
Speaker 2: way and then to wrap it up in a way
Speaker 2: that leaves them intact and maybe with something to think about,
Speaker 2: but not really disturbed, you know, to the point where
Speaker 2: they don't want to come to the next play. So
Speaker 2: I think that those the demands of entertainment have shaped
Speaker 2: what we want to hear about. And I, for example,
Speaker 2: I'll use Anne rule. UH was probably the definition of
Speaker 2: successful uh true crime. And UH I knew Anne, and
Speaker 2: we had several talks about this and the things that
Speaker 2: I was pursuing. You said, Oh, I stay away from that.
Speaker 2: You know, the uh JFK assassination. Oh I stay away
Speaker 2: from that. Uh the hand of death cult. Oh no, no,
Speaker 2: I I don't have anything to do with it. And
Speaker 2: then she has said publicly things like who cares if
Speaker 2: one whino bashes another whino over the head? It's not interesting?
Speaker 2: And that goes all the way back to our theories
Speaker 2: uh uh in esthetics that we developed uh from the
Speaker 2: the Greeks and the Romans, that we're concerned with people
Speaker 2: of significance in what happens with them. We don't care
Speaker 2: about the bums out there in the alley hitting each
Speaker 2: other over the head. There's no stakes, there's nothing that
Speaker 2: we care about involved there. Okay, So I've given a
Speaker 2: lot of thought of this and how entertainment shape what
Speaker 2: our audiences want. And then instead of becoming another in
Speaker 2: rule and providing exactly what they want, I'm doing the opposite.
Speaker 2: Why Because I'm more interested in doing things that other
Speaker 2: people have left undone. Okay, if you want the same
Speaker 2: old thing, then you can get it easily, and so
Speaker 2: you don't need me. So since I'm here, why don't
Speaker 2: I go ahead and do the things that you don't
Speaker 2: dare to do. I say the things that you don't
Speaker 2: dare to say, because at least it's not the same
Speaker 2: old thing. Working with for Shaeffer, who really a terrible
Speaker 2: experience and having to be treated to the kind of
Speaker 2: assaults that he would perpetrate with his writing that he
Speaker 2: sent to me to publish it was. It was very painful.
Speaker 2: But then to come to Danny Rowling again, he has
Speaker 2: a different reason for wanting to participate. When I meet
Speaker 2: this person, he has already committed his crime. That's a given.
Speaker 2: You can't get stuck on that level. You can't just
Speaker 2: keep saying over and over but he got her head off,
Speaker 2: How could you talk to him? Okay, that was already
Speaker 2: done before the very beginning, so it has to be given.
Speaker 2: So what do you do then? And what he wanted
Speaker 2: to do was try to give back at least some
Speaker 2: understanding of what could be learned from the story of
Speaker 2: his life, from what he had done, what had shaped him,
Speaker 2: the things that had happened to him, and then he
Speaker 2: did not shirk in any way personal responsibility for what
Speaker 2: he had done. So it's the whole picture right there,
Speaker 2: that he wanted to do something good for the world,
Speaker 2: and I wanted to do something good for the world
Speaker 2: because I wanted to look into this dark corner of secrets.
Speaker 2: Everyone's too afraid to go in there with the monster,
Speaker 2: and so you don't find out anything. And he could
Speaker 2: have lived and died none of this, and we'd never
Speaker 2: known any of this. And as far as I didn't
Speaker 2: teach him. And I go back to what Diane Fitzpatrick
Speaker 2: said about being in the MK Ultra program. She said, now,
Speaker 2: this isn't after we wrote the book in personal correspondence,
Speaker 2: she said, it's not like they taught us anything. She said,
Speaker 2: it's like they enabled us to bring it out in ourselves, right, Okay,
Speaker 2: So to create a condition to allow the person to
Speaker 2: come forth in their own way, it's not the same
Speaker 2: as teaching them how to write. And the case of
Speaker 2: Danny Rolling, the biggest characteristic he had when I started
Speaker 2: with him was zero self esteem. He hated himself so much,
Speaker 2: and he did not consider himself in any way worth anything.
Speaker 2: And so when he began sending me these letters, and
Speaker 2: he would burn first into graphics in the middle of
Speaker 2: the word, it'd just be writing along in words. Then
Speaker 2: all of a sudden, it's a picture, you know, and
Speaker 2: I'm like, what is this? Okay? I said. Finally, I said, Danny,
Speaker 2: you are an artist. And I said, if you want
Speaker 2: to draw pictures, please just start a new page, draw picture,
Speaker 2: sign it, and date it, because you are an artist.
Speaker 2: And anyone who had any contact at Danny Rolling from
Speaker 2: then on knows very well that how much he took
Speaker 2: that to heart. Every single page he ever wrote, he
Speaker 2: dated and initialed okay. And then he began once once
Speaker 2: someone was there to validate him, to see to see something,
Speaker 2: to see himself as reflect that in the eyes of
Speaker 2: someone who saw something there. Okay. He would look into
Speaker 2: my eyes and I would see he would see that
Speaker 2: I respected him and that he was valuable and interesting.
Speaker 2: And so from that he gained enough ego nourishment to
Speaker 2: come forth with his art, which I did not teach
Speaker 2: him art, and that's for sure, Yeah, but I just
Speaker 2: uh worked with him until he was a person who
Speaker 2: had enough self respect that he would allow that artistic
Speaker 2: talent to come out into and to mature and grow.
Speaker 2: And Danny, before he died, he had become I think
Speaker 2: other people will say that he had become one of
Speaker 2: the most preeminent killer artists that of modern times. He's
Speaker 2: done an incredible body of work. And the thing that
Speaker 2: I find most compelling about what came out of that
Speaker 2: was that it is not just decorative. It's not oh,
Speaker 2: he's a good artist. It's that he used the graphic
Speaker 2: cards to probe his own mind. And that's what we're
Speaker 2: here for. He's not there to make pretty pictures like
Speaker 2: Elmer Wayne Henley make the prettiest little landscapes you will
Speaker 2: ever saw. You know, uh Malveaux, And I think Malvaux
Speaker 2: is a fabulous artist, but he never created anything that
Speaker 2: delved into his mind. And so that's why I think
Speaker 2: Danny Rowling's artwork turned out to be significant.
Speaker 6: Yeah, let's usus Sondra as an opportunity to stop for
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Speaker 6: start your ritual today. Now, you were talking about the
Speaker 6: value of publishing and the value of encouraging Danny Rolling
Speaker 6: and his artwork. But there was a whole group of
Speaker 6: people that were in sense that you would dare do
Speaker 6: anything like that and share have any feelings for this
Speaker 6: Danny Rowling, And we'll get to that a little bit later,
Speaker 6: but will let you include a particularly interesting interview with
Speaker 6: Dateline with Jane Paully and Jane Paully has somebody named
Speaker 6: Jennifer Frake on the program. And then you join a
Speaker 6: little bit later as you as it is demonstrated in
Speaker 6: this interview or illustrated, what exactly happens, what is the
Speaker 6: premise of it? Tell us a little bit more about
Speaker 6: your invite onto this with Jane Paully on Dateline and
Speaker 6: Jennifer Frake's appearance. Tell us more about what happens.
Speaker 2: Haha. I'm happy to talk about NBC. Boy. They started
Speaker 2: when I was down at the trial, at the murder trial,
Speaker 2: and they sent a producer down from New York specifically
Speaker 2: to camp out on me and get me to agree
Speaker 2: to an interview. And I told them no. Okay, I
Speaker 2: haven't gone into this part yet in print, but I'll
Speaker 2: just go into it with you now. I was under
Speaker 2: contract to Maury Terry, who's been in the news again recently,
Speaker 2: and Maury Terry had me under contract and told me
Speaker 2: that he was going to arrange exclusive coverage and for
Speaker 2: me to tell everyone no. And so that's what happened.
Speaker 2: I told everyone no. And the other part of it
Speaker 2: what Mary Terry was going to do for me and
Speaker 2: manifest for me. That didn't work out quite that way.
Speaker 2: But let's go back to NBC. So NBC's down there
Speaker 2: and there the part the motel I stayed in for
Speaker 2: the trial. I had to talk to them about my,
Speaker 2: uh my privacy and instructed them not for no one
Speaker 2: there to I was there or where ourves and they
Speaker 2: breached that. They weaked that out to the press, so
Speaker 2: every time I had to step out of my door,
Speaker 2: they would be camping out there. So NBC sent the
Speaker 2: one down and it was kind of funny. I told her, sure,
Speaker 2: I said, so we can talk. You can take me
Speaker 2: out to dinner at the outback. That would be great.
Speaker 2: And then she's like, ooh, I'm vegan and everything. I said,
Speaker 2: that's cool. You don't have to eat it, you know,
Speaker 2: and oh, I'm a marathon running around. That's wonderful. Okay,
Speaker 2: we're going to the outback right and and you know
Speaker 2: that's it. That's my commitment to you. I'll let you
Speaker 2: take me to the outback. So then she comes to
Speaker 2: pick me up. Oh, why don't we go to Streak
Speaker 2: and Shake instead. I'm like goodbye, And so that when
Speaker 2: on and then that did not succeed, and they sent
Speaker 2: a third producer down from New York to Bird dog Me. Okay,
Speaker 2: this one got sent to Maury Terry. So they were
Speaker 2: negotiating back and forth. Maury Terry was saying this, Oh,
Speaker 2: we don't pay for news. She said, well, you pay
Speaker 2: for entertainment. You want to do an entertainment story and
Speaker 2: then you pay for it, you know. And they were like, ooh, no,
Speaker 2: it's not entertainment, it's news. So that didn't go anywhere. Okay.
Speaker 2: So those were the three producers that came down to
Speaker 2: Gainesville to bother me in person. After that they switched
Speaker 2: to calling me at work and insisting ending and then
Speaker 2: they're like, well, we're going to do this story anyway,
Speaker 2: whether you participate or not, okay, And so I did
Speaker 2: agree to do this story. Now, this was a transcript
Speaker 2: of the first appearance I did on NBC Dayline, and
Speaker 2: I just couldn't believe they had the nerve to call
Speaker 2: me again and want me to go on again. And
Speaker 2: in fact, I did go on again, but I had
Speaker 2: some secret weapons. My good friend and alumnus had been
Speaker 2: very high up in the DA's office in New York
Speaker 2: State and organized crime, and he trained prosecutors for the state.
Speaker 2: He came down from Albany to my hotel in New
Speaker 2: York City and put me through coaching session, uh par excellence,
Speaker 2: and then he would throw me questions and then he
Speaker 2: and I went answer and he said no, no, no,
Speaker 2: you can't be angry. You can't be angry. Now I'll
Speaker 2: do it again. And so I had that training session
Speaker 2: with him because he was my friend, and so I
Speaker 2: did the second appearance, you know, and it was just
Speaker 2: as UH damaging. I had over two hundred and fifty
Speaker 2: death threats uh and UH when I tried to report
Speaker 2: it to UH law enforcement, UH, they said that they
Speaker 2: didn't accept that that kind of report. Okay, And I
Speaker 2: stopped counting after the two hundred and fiftieth threat that
Speaker 2: I was keeping track of. But all this was UH
Speaker 2: deliberately done. And I, as I told them, when they
Speaker 2: were trying to argue me into appearing all that, I
Speaker 2: would say, look at I'm not that big of a story.
Speaker 2: What's the big deal? You know? Why are you so
Speaker 2: determined to get me? You know? And now I realize
Speaker 2: that they were getting their marching orders from intelligence, frankly,
Speaker 2: because I've learned more since then, you know, from other
Speaker 2: people and other sources that now I realize that's what
Speaker 2: that was. Okay. So so here we have what happened
Speaker 2: in this story there that's in the book Janet Freke.
Speaker 2: All right. The Making of a Serial Killer includes one
Speaker 2: chapter where Danny wrote about committing a rape in Sarasota.
Speaker 2: Danny Rowling did not know the woman's name and did
Speaker 2: not name her or identify her in any way. Okay,
Speaker 2: And so the and they come forth with this bogus story
Speaker 2: that she was in her local Barnes and Noble browsing
Speaker 2: the books, which people who knew her and Sarasota said
Speaker 2: was absolutely preposterous, knowing her reputation and her you know,
Speaker 2: other other activities. But she was browsing the books and
Speaker 2: Burned and Noble when she found this book and she
Speaker 2: opened it up and she saw what he was. He
Speaker 2: was writing about her, and she fell to her knees
Speaker 2: there in the aisle. Okay, she literally fell to her knees. Oh,
Speaker 2: she was so devastated at this write up. And then
Speaker 2: the other handle on this story was the hero cop.
Speaker 2: Now the hero cop, oh legedly, according to the story presented,
Speaker 2: heard about his rape, not not for reading the book
Speaker 2: or anything, you know, couldn't say that. So he just
Speaker 2: knew about it, I guess. And so he ran her
Speaker 2: DNA against Danny Rowling and got a hit. Now, why
Speaker 2: is this nonsense? Because the statute of limitations on rape
Speaker 2: had run. Okay. That means that there was no active
Speaker 2: case open, okay, And that means that any law enforcement
Speaker 2: agency in the state of Florida that expects to get
Speaker 2: the services of the State lab has to fill out
Speaker 2: a form with the case number on it, okay, to
Speaker 2: even file it. Okay. The next thing is, during that
Speaker 2: same time frame, I had a murder suspect and we
Speaker 2: got his DNA and it took the state lab eighteen
Speaker 2: months to get around to it, even though it had
Speaker 2: a case number. Okay. So that's that's the state of
Speaker 2: the art of the State clime labs. They are underfunded,
Speaker 2: their way behind. You don't just run down there and
Speaker 2: check the DNA. He said, quote unquote, he checked it
Speaker 2: rolling on a hunch, on a hunch? What hunch? And
Speaker 2: what about your boss? How did he approve of you
Speaker 2: spending your time that way on a case of rape
Speaker 2: that had been committed over seven years earlier. None of
Speaker 2: that's holds up. That just doesn't hold up. Didn't happen.
Speaker 6: But Sondra, that's what Jane Pauley was, you know, I
Speaker 6: mean the way the interview went and the way it
Speaker 6: was produced. Obviously, then they interview you and then they
Speaker 6: put voiceovers and yeah, and it's very very dramatic and
Speaker 6: obviously one sided to say the least, and that they
Speaker 6: just empathize with with with Frank Janet Frake. But the
Speaker 6: thing is is that you talked about that this is
Speaker 6: all entertainment. But at the same time you have to
Speaker 6: admit that you made a conscious decision to not be
Speaker 6: a writer like Anne Rule and saw the future and
Speaker 6: were more was more interested in the way which were
Speaker 6: sent a book differently than Ann Rule. Not everybody wrote
Speaker 6: like Ann Rule even at the time, but to be successful.
Speaker 6: So the thing is, I got to say that you
Speaker 6: also use controversy, and not to say you deserve the
Speaker 6: ridicule and the humiliation and the attacks and the trying
Speaker 6: to end your career economically, but I'm saying that it
Speaker 6: seems that Jane Pauley is is poking you with the
Speaker 6: idea that you don't have enough empathy and how dare
Speaker 6: you have feelings? Or a serial killer? And that's the
Speaker 6: way they're the way they're painting this, And so why
Speaker 6: do you present this in the book? And again people
Speaker 6: see this as you are somewhat attacking or criticizing Janet Frake.
Speaker 6: Why is it not that, why.
Speaker 2: Is it not that? I don't know what that means?
Speaker 2: What do you mean? Why is what not? What?
Speaker 6: Well? The thing is with with Janet, like I say
Speaker 6: that you talk about her, her family, taking a movie deal.
Speaker 6: You talk about this in the book, and.
Speaker 2: That's the murder victims family.
Speaker 6: That's not okay.
Speaker 2: Now, Janet Frakes did file suit against Danny Rowling for
Speaker 2: a million dollars, right, that was not the state lean.
Speaker 6: Right. And this lawsuit you write though, too, is that
Speaker 6: she because of the statute and there was no way
Speaker 6: that she would have collected any of the money. So
Speaker 6: you say this is disingenuous some of these stants that
Speaker 6: she takes, because it's just not she's not going to
Speaker 6: get any money from this and she's not going to
Speaker 6: any recourse.
Speaker 2: Well, here's the ultimate irony. I nor Danny Rowling revealed
Speaker 2: to the world her name and her face. Jane Pauley
Speaker 2: did that, right, Okay, So if that's such a heinous
Speaker 2: offense that the story of what happened to her should
Speaker 2: be known. If that's so offensive, then what's Jane Paully doing?
Speaker 6: Yeah, that's right. Well, like I said, I think it's.
Speaker 2: No one would have ever known that the person in
Speaker 2: the story with her. There was no way, and it
Speaker 2: didn't matter. Jane Pauley went and dug it up and
Speaker 2: put her on TV and striking all these moral poses
Speaker 2: and I'll tell you a little dialogue that was off
Speaker 2: the record on that deal. And when we got through
Speaker 2: taping and everything, and we were standing around and everything,
Speaker 2: I said, Jane, I said, you know, you can strike
Speaker 2: poses at might expense all you want. I said, but
Speaker 2: you can't keep from saying my name. And she laughed.
Speaker 2: She said, you're right, you know, because that's the ultimate irony.
Speaker 2: And this is what I brought out in the controversy
Speaker 2: with the state governor of Wyoming who wanted me banned
Speaker 2: from AOL and went on Larry King to say, I
Speaker 2: want to thank the governor for catapulting me into the spotlight.
Speaker 2: I was working in obscurity until he chose to bring
Speaker 2: me to the attention of millions of people all over
Speaker 2: the world. CNN was on two hundred something countries, you know.
Speaker 2: And I say, all of a sudden, my my website
Speaker 2: is flooded with you know, people wanting to and I
Speaker 2: all these offers to do interviews, and I said, I
Speaker 2: just want to thank the governor, you know, for bringing
Speaker 2: me to the attention of all these new and this
Speaker 2: new audience. And that was the same thing I would
Speaker 2: say to Jane polly Well. I said, it in a
Speaker 2: different way. And she also said she also said, O
Speaker 2: weur attorneys, uh have believed that you are in the
Speaker 2: right on the state lawsuit. And I said, oh, so
Speaker 2: will they fire and will they file an amicus brief?
Speaker 2: Oh no, she said, that's gonna happen.
Speaker 6: Yeah, this this son of Sam legislation too. You talk
Speaker 6: about this thing already being struck down, and then yet
Speaker 6: at the same time this has already been deemed unconstitutional,
Speaker 6: and then you are still being you know, tried in
Speaker 6: the in the media over this as well. So I was.
Speaker 2: Being tried in court, took all of my money, and
Speaker 2: they were further than that.
Speaker 6: What was the premise? And what was the premise though?
Speaker 6: Because the idea that the the perpetrator is not the
Speaker 6: profit from the notoriety of his crimes. What's that got
Speaker 6: to do with you? How can we get around that?
Speaker 2: Here's what they did. They attached me to the to
Speaker 2: the sellon under a legal principle that they invented, and
Speaker 2: they called it unique and special. Okay, just let's just
Speaker 2: say or the sound of that for a minute. If
Speaker 2: you know anything about law, unique and special means unprecedented,
Speaker 2: either in law or in custom. No one has ever,
Speaker 2: and he said that himself when he was given the
Speaker 2: Attorney General was given a lifetime Achievement award for what
Speaker 2: he did to me. Okay. And when the Associated Press
Speaker 2: covered that, he admitted, but he didn't say it as
Speaker 2: if he should be ashamed of it. He said it
Speaker 2: as if it was evident of what a brilliant attorney
Speaker 2: he was. He said, I haven't heard of anyone this
Speaker 2: law has been used against who was not a fellon. Okay,
Speaker 2: So that was his He was so creative. I don't
Speaker 2: know of any other case when one of these type
Speaker 2: of cases was brought against a non convicted person, okay.
Speaker 2: And he told the Associated Press he always wanted to
Speaker 2: be successful, but he never suspected that his success would
Speaker 2: be measured by how well he prevented someone else's. So
Speaker 2: they had no real legal precedent and no way to
Speaker 2: attach me to this action. In addition, there was no
Speaker 2: money Okay, no money was ever paid to Danny Rowling,
Speaker 2: and that's easily proven because his accounts or public record. Okay,
Speaker 2: there was never any money. The lawsuit was brought under
Speaker 2: prior restraint, which again is improper illegal. I was sued
Speaker 2: before these stories were written. They were not written. Yeah, okay,
Speaker 2: when I was sued. So there's you know, I could
Speaker 2: go on and on about how bogus this action was,
Speaker 2: but I will bow to the wisdom of Steve Dunlevy,
Speaker 2: or the anchor on a current affair that I brought
Speaker 2: this to because I was already doing stories for him,
Speaker 2: and he said, nobody gives a bleep about the First Amendment.
Speaker 2: It's not a story. And you know, I don't want
Speaker 2: to hear that either, but I'm afraid that that's the
Speaker 2: way it is. The eyes glaze over. It says, if
Speaker 2: our constitutional protections against abuse, as if that's just nothing,
Speaker 2: that's just a bore. That's a big boar, okay. And
Speaker 2: if there was an injustice done to you as a journalist,
Speaker 2: who cares? Have you got another story? You know, it's
Speaker 2: not a story. So the fact that I don't really
Speaker 2: want to leave the stage without putting it on the record,
Speaker 2: the things that I had to go through because I
Speaker 2: did the story, and this book here, Danny Rowling Serial
Speaker 2: Killer Interviews, does put those things on the record, or
Speaker 2: some of them, and it gives you an idea that
Speaker 2: this was a historically significant event, bringing this book into
Speaker 2: being being the making of a serial killer, the effect
Speaker 2: that all these spinall were generated in terms of the impact.
Speaker 6: So yeah, Like we mentioned that he said that this
Speaker 6: was groundbreaking in the publishing The Confessions of a serial
Speaker 6: Killer Danny Rowling, especially in nineteen ninety six. Let's Jesus
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Speaker 6: Now, we talked about this groundbreaking journalism that you were
Speaker 6: doing and other people weren't understanding, and getting back to
Speaker 6: these interviews that are involved in here. Know, we had
Speaker 6: an interview October twentieth, twenty twenty about the making of
Speaker 6: a serial killer, but you also had an interesting interview
Speaker 6: with Ariel Kooxie from the Malice podcast and a lot
Speaker 6: of things I found very very interesting some of the
Speaker 6: things that were revealed, and you just disgust and came
Speaker 6: out of that interview. So tell us a little bit
Speaker 6: about that interview and what was had from it.
Speaker 2: I don't really have a response to that. If you
Speaker 2: want to ask me about, you know, something we talked
Speaker 2: about there, and I could expand on I mean, doing
Speaker 2: an interview, I'm just there and it starts and it
Speaker 2: goes and then it ends.
Speaker 6: Yeah, well you talk about that when she asked about
Speaker 6: Danny Rowling and you talk about this hatred was not
Speaker 6: just so specific to the victims, but society more at large.
Speaker 6: So you talked about maybe the impetus for all of
Speaker 6: this was the abuse that he suffered at the hands
Speaker 6: of his father and that disappointing rejection and lack of love.
Speaker 6: How did that you discuss that? So tell us what
Speaker 6: you discussed about that that abuse.
Speaker 2: Well, I can say this that I think that if
Speaker 2: it was just his father, he would have been a
Speaker 2: simple patricide. And if a count attempt between him and
Speaker 2: his father had come to court, he would have been
Speaker 2: exonerated under self defense because his father shot at him
Speaker 2: six times before he fired back. And so, but the
Speaker 2: drama with the father playing the central role, if he
Speaker 2: was simply a patricide, then they would not be a story.
Speaker 2: But what happened there was that society played a role,
Speaker 2: and society refused to protect the child, okay, and society
Speaker 2: indemnified the father because he was a good officer, and
Speaker 2: those things could go on. And I would say that
Speaker 2: if there was a turning point where this child could
Speaker 2: have been saying, that was it when society allowed the
Speaker 2: abuse and indemnified it. And from that point on, eventually
Speaker 2: it coalesced in his mind that his enemy was not
Speaker 2: his father, It was society. So under the terms that
Speaker 2: he presents as the drama that went on within his mind,
Speaker 2: it was a deal expressed in terms of one life
Speaker 2: for every year that you were tortured in prison. So
Speaker 2: that is an abstraction. That's not a love rivalry or
Speaker 2: trying to sell body parts or any of the things
Speaker 2: that we have for these multiple homicides. It was an
Speaker 2: abstraction and really had nothing to do with who these
Speaker 2: victims were. It wasn't you know, when you get out
Speaker 2: of prison, you're gonna hunt like with Schaeffer. Oh, he
Speaker 2: threatened the defense attorney, he threatened the prosecutor, he threatened
Speaker 2: the judge. You know, he threatened the sheriff. He was
Speaker 2: going to get out. He was going to have his
Speaker 2: organized crime people go after them. Well, that's not what
Speaker 2: this was. This was against what someone with the heavily
Speaker 2: Christian background might refer to as powers and principalities.
Speaker 6: Yes, what we talked about when we alluded to us
Speaker 6: there was that his aunt, I believe, went to the
Speaker 6: police and reported the abuse of the father, and the
Speaker 6: police said no, but he's a good cop, and so
Speaker 6: we're not going to interfere into anything domestics like that
Speaker 6: and you say this is good enough. Impetus for sure.
Speaker 6: He also talked about this is that it was.
Speaker 2: A turning point that in his mind that made him
Speaker 2: a serial killer. It wasn't because he, you know, wanted
Speaker 2: to stalk this victim and find them and target them
Speaker 2: and learn about them and tease them or like b
Speaker 2: Dkay send things to the paper about them. He was
Speaker 2: working out a revenge type concept against society. So who
Speaker 2: did he choose, Well, he said he didn't choose. He
Speaker 2: say he'd say Gemini that chose. But okay, why did
Speaker 2: Gemini choose that victimology? And my answer would be because
Speaker 2: these were young people who belonged and were cherished by society.
Speaker 2: Their parents put them in school and took care of them.
Speaker 2: They were well kempt, they were valued. And I see,
Speaker 2: if there was only one image of Danny Rowling, it
Speaker 2: would be a guy with his nose pressed up against
Speaker 2: the window of life, watching life go by and knowing
Speaker 2: he could never be part of it.
Speaker 6: And you talk about this revenge on society as well.
Speaker 6: Anthony Mioli does a very interesting statistic and you remark
Speaker 6: that is very interesting about this one to two percent
Speaker 6: of serial killers in his experience, are people that would
Speaker 6: pose a body like Danny rolling dish.
Speaker 2: Oh, yes, okay, Well, there's an extra emphasis on anything
Speaker 2: you do at a homicide beyond just ending the life
Speaker 2: of the victim. If you have ended the life of
Speaker 2: the victim, the hitman's point of view, or the businessman's
Speaker 2: point of view is get the heck out of dodge
Speaker 2: and live to kill again another day for whatever reason.
Speaker 2: If you do any if you stay there at the
Speaker 2: scene of a crime, for any reason, it has to
Speaker 2: be given great weight because what were you doing?
Speaker 1: That's right, that was.
Speaker 2: More important than getting out of getting away getting away
Speaker 2: with murder. Why were you still there? Well, there was
Speaker 2: more to do. And the way he would express it
Speaker 2: he would go into a spiritual terminology and to say
Speaker 2: that he had to exemplify evil, pure evil, and that
Speaker 2: he had to destroy the works of God, the human figures,
Speaker 2: the works of God, the beauty of the works of God,
Speaker 2: that he had to destroy that because why. And that
Speaker 2: took a while, because he kept saying, well, I don't
Speaker 2: know why. And he gets saying I don't have a message.
Speaker 2: And I said, well, oh, everyone says you do, and
Speaker 2: so and he said, any days, any message, it's geminized MESSAGESLF. Well,
Speaker 2: you asked Gemini, you know him, I don't, And so
Speaker 2: eventually it just came through from that type of dialogue
Speaker 2: saying that evil walks this world like a natural man
Speaker 2: and that he was there to show that evil is real.
Speaker 2: So that's as far as we're going to get with that,
Speaker 2: my friend, Well, there's no other source. There's no other
Speaker 2: source on that. That's as far as it goes.
Speaker 6: You talk about that while his case was ongoing and
Speaker 6: while his life was in jeopardy. Yeah, he cared. He
Speaker 6: cared very much about this book, and he cared very
Speaker 6: much about your agreement. We haven't mentioned that is that
Speaker 6: you were very experienced with other people. And what was
Speaker 6: unique was your agreement with Danny Rowling. What was unique
Speaker 6: about what he did concerning your agreement?
Speaker 2: Mm, well, what was unique is did Danny you would
Speaker 2: think that someone would be thinking about their case and
Speaker 2: he he never expressed any interest in it, and things
Speaker 2: will appear in the news, and I would think that
Speaker 2: I want to know his reaction. He didn't even know
Speaker 2: he would get the the the uh legal work in
Speaker 2: the mail, not even open it, and uh he when
Speaker 2: it came time for him to plead, decided what to plead.
Speaker 2: He wrote to me and he said, there there were
Speaker 2: several things I need to consider and when I plead,
Speaker 2: And the first number one how is this going to
Speaker 2: affect our story? And then there were two other things.
Speaker 2: The last one was the victim's families. And then he
Speaker 2: went into his discussion of his bullet points, and he
Speaker 2: talk totally about how is this going to affect our story?
Speaker 2: He never got to the part about the victim's family
Speaker 2: item that he listed. And I called his lawyers when
Speaker 2: I got this letter, and I said, you better go
Speaker 2: down there and get a hold of him. I said,
Speaker 2: he is more concerned about this story than he is
Speaker 2: about his own life. And his lawyers said to me,
Speaker 2: that's how it's always been with Danny.
Speaker 6: Yeah, you do an interview with Ron and Ron and
Speaker 6: what I found interesting is, again I mentioned it again,
Speaker 6: is that you provide you include information and material in
Speaker 6: this book that many people would not include. They would
Speaker 6: take out anything where like a negative review. People would
Speaker 6: if they had their way, they would take all of
Speaker 6: those and never ever get to see them. But you've
Speaker 6: included this and one of the biggest change exchanges on
Speaker 6: this radio show is that callers call in and talk
Speaker 6: about your culpability and that you should fry along with
Speaker 6: oh yeah, and that they can't understand your viewpoint on
Speaker 6: the death penalty. So you do talk about that viewpoint,
Speaker 6: tell us how you feel and what people might say
Speaker 6: in contrast to what you're saying about the death penalty.
Speaker 2: About the death penalty, I say that if you have
Speaker 2: a feeling in your heart and you cultivate it that
Speaker 2: you want someone to be killed, then you are exactly
Speaker 2: the same as a murderer, because murder under even under
Speaker 2: the law, doesn't exist unless you have men's rea or
Speaker 2: the guilty mind. So you could literally kill someone, but
Speaker 2: if you didn't have that evil intention in your heart,
Speaker 2: it wouldn't be murdered. Okay. That's what makes it murder,
Speaker 2: is that tension in your heart. So if this is
Speaker 2: the intention that you're expressing, it's ironic because you're blaming
Speaker 2: someone else for being homicidal while you are expressing the
Speaker 2: desire for a living person to be killed. And I
Speaker 2: wish that that irony were made more prominent if it
Speaker 2: were possible.
Speaker 6: And you say too, that this is evidenced by people
Speaker 6: literally jumping up and down with glee and rejoicing. This
Speaker 6: is not a somber, you know, closure thing. This is
Speaker 6: exactly what you describe.
Speaker 2: Well, And that's why I wrote the song, and they
Speaker 2: played the song on the radio. And I wrote the
Speaker 2: song after going through the murder trial there with Rolling
Speaker 2: and it was so traumatic. I remember that I lost
Speaker 2: my voice and only got my voice back while I
Speaker 2: was driving back home from Gainesville and making up the song.
Speaker 2: I got my voice back by singing this song. I
Speaker 2: was writing about death row and the verse about the
Speaker 2: the those who are dancing, I'll just tell you it says,
Speaker 2: undead memories of the lives you've taken. They won't let
Speaker 2: you rest. Every night you'll awake and they're dancing on
Speaker 2: your grave, demanding nothing less than your whole life. Cause
Speaker 2: you've been dancing with the reaper. Now every day you
Speaker 2: see him in your own eyes. So this goes on,
Speaker 2: and then at the end I speak, and this is
Speaker 2: what I would like to say. If I only had
Speaker 2: a few words. My last words would be Execution makes
Speaker 2: us killers too. I know, well I'm a killer, and
Speaker 2: so are you. Vengeance demands the killer die. When will
Speaker 2: we stop? And wonder why God help us.
Speaker 6: Ale Yes, it's a very, very fascinating collection you've put together.
Speaker 6: Danny Rowling serial Killer Interviews. I want to thank you
Speaker 6: very much for this again fascinating interview for those that
Speaker 6: might want to take a look at other work or
Speaker 6: find this out. Can you tell us about the Amazon page, website, etc.
Speaker 2: Well, my books are on Amazon, but I'd like people
Speaker 2: to know that I have a website called songs a
Speaker 2: London dot com and if you go there and there
Speaker 2: are excerpts from all the books and then links appear
Speaker 2: there to the Amazon page where you can buy it,
Speaker 2: but you can get pre use and reviews. As Dan mentioned,
Speaker 2: the bitter with the Sweet, you know, that's that's what
Speaker 2: controversy means.
Speaker 6: Yeah. Absolutely, it's an impressive, impressive collection and I think
Speaker 6: it'll be a collector's item. As to tell you the truth,
Speaker 6: I really do. Thank you so much for coming on
Speaker 6: and talking about this latest Danny Rolling serial Killer and
Speaker 6: we look forward to speaking to you again when finally
Speaker 6: you talk about Beyond the making of a serial Killer.
Speaker 6: Thank you so much, Sondra London. You have a great
Speaker 6: evening and hope you're talking again.
Speaker 2: So much. Dan I'm always happy to appear on your show.
Speaker 6: Thank you so much, it's always a pleasure. You have
Speaker 6: a great inning.
Speaker 2: Good night,