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True Murder with your host, 62 00:02:34.919 --> 00:02:37.439 journalist and author Dan Zufanski. 63 00:02:47.159 --> 00:02:52.280 Good evening. Serial killer Herbert Mullen terrorized the Santa Cruz, 64 00:02:52.360 --> 00:02:55.560 California area at the same time the infamous co ed 65 00:02:55.680 --> 00:03:02.879 killer Edmund Kemper was active. Unlike Mullen killed anyone young, 66 00:03:03.240 --> 00:03:07.199 old men, women, children, and even a priest in a 67 00:03:07.280 --> 00:03:12.400 confession booth. He didn't adhere to a particular mo The 68 00:03:12.560 --> 00:03:17.800 Deadly Voices told him to kill, and he killed. The 69 00:03:17.840 --> 00:03:21.360 book that we're featuring this evening is Deadly Voices, The 70 00:03:21.479 --> 00:03:26.039 true story of serial killer Herbert Mullens, with my special guest, 71 00:03:26.840 --> 00:03:30.719 journalist and author C. L. Swinney. Welcome back to the program, 72 00:03:30.800 --> 00:03:32.800 and thank you very much for agreeing to this interview 73 00:03:33.039 --> 00:03:38.199 once again. Chris Swinney, Hey buddy, how are you doing. 74 00:03:38.360 --> 00:03:41.319 Thanks for another invite to this awesome show. I appreciate it. 75 00:03:42.400 --> 00:03:45.280 Thank you very much. You become a standard in the 76 00:03:45.719 --> 00:03:48.199 with the program, a favorite, one of the favorites, with 77 00:03:49.680 --> 00:03:52.240 the amazing cases that you do cover in your books. 78 00:03:52.360 --> 00:03:55.599 So here we are again this evening Deadly Voices true 79 00:03:55.639 --> 00:03:58.120 story of serial killer Herbert Mullen, one of the most 80 00:03:59.039 --> 00:04:03.599 infamous killers of all time and also very interestingly was 81 00:04:03.639 --> 00:04:06.879 we talked about in the introduction, tying in at the 82 00:04:06.960 --> 00:04:10.319 same time as the infamous co ed killer Edmund Kemper. 83 00:04:12.319 --> 00:04:17.040 Why this book? What really interested you about this case 84 00:04:18.040 --> 00:04:21.240 enough to want to take the effort to write a book. 85 00:04:23.000 --> 00:04:27.319 Well, this, this gentleman here, Herbert, he kind of fascinating 86 00:04:27.360 --> 00:04:30.759 to me because I have a narcotics background in law 87 00:04:30.839 --> 00:04:40.199 enforcement and also an interest in schizophrenia, especially paranoid schizophrenia. 88 00:04:40.839 --> 00:04:44.879 In this case with Herbert kind of combines both, and 89 00:04:45.040 --> 00:04:48.639 you don't always hear a lot of serial killers. 90 00:04:48.279 --> 00:04:49.199 That combined both. 91 00:04:49.560 --> 00:04:52.600 And then it was kind of even more fascinating that 92 00:04:53.680 --> 00:04:57.560 an area close to my my my current home and 93 00:04:57.720 --> 00:05:00.600 to my heart, the Santa Cruz area that one time 94 00:05:00.720 --> 00:05:03.879 was actually known as Murderville, USA. And so putting all 95 00:05:04.199 --> 00:05:07.560 those three together is what really got me. I'm interested 96 00:05:07.600 --> 00:05:09.800 in this case. So that's why I took it on. 97 00:05:12.160 --> 00:05:15.480 Now where this occurs as Santa Cruz, California, and you're 98 00:05:15.519 --> 00:05:23.360 talking about we first introduce when you talk about Herbert Mullen. 99 00:05:24.040 --> 00:05:27.279 His father was Brian Mullen or partner Bill Mullen, and 100 00:05:27.360 --> 00:05:30.000 he was a World War Two hero. And his mother 101 00:05:30.160 --> 00:05:34.519 was named Jean, and he was the youngest of two children. 102 00:05:35.240 --> 00:05:37.040 And you say, and this is important later and we 103 00:05:37.079 --> 00:05:40.680 won't give it away, but this date his birth April eighteenth, 104 00:05:40.759 --> 00:05:45.120 nineteen forty seven, also marked the anniversary of the nineteen 105 00:05:45.160 --> 00:05:49.360 oh six San Francisco earthquake and also the day Albert 106 00:05:49.399 --> 00:05:54.120 Einstein died. Anyway, you talk about his early life, So 107 00:05:54.319 --> 00:05:57.560 you talk about the family moving in nineteen fifty two 108 00:05:58.439 --> 00:06:00.800 just outside San Francisco. Tell tell us a little bit 109 00:06:00.839 --> 00:06:04.000 what the family life was like, what was Bill senior like, 110 00:06:04.279 --> 00:06:08.439 What did you discover about his early life and his upbringing? 111 00:06:10.079 --> 00:06:12.160 So Herbert had kind of a really. 112 00:06:14.040 --> 00:06:15.920 For me, you know, looking at serial killers, he had 113 00:06:15.920 --> 00:06:19.519 an uncharacteristic bringing upbringing because he was actually in a 114 00:06:20.360 --> 00:06:22.319 somewhat nurturing and loving home. 115 00:06:23.560 --> 00:06:24.720 You know, it's not the classic. 116 00:06:24.839 --> 00:06:27.240 While this kid was raised in a terrible environment and 117 00:06:27.279 --> 00:06:28.759 then turned into a serial killer. 118 00:06:29.319 --> 00:06:30.480 That was in the case with Herbert. 119 00:06:30.519 --> 00:06:31.439 I mean, his father. 120 00:06:32.759 --> 00:06:35.439 Was a World War Two veteran. He was super strict, 121 00:06:35.480 --> 00:06:38.959 but he wasn't abusive. He'd play a major role in 122 00:06:39.040 --> 00:06:44.879 this case as it unfolded. His mom was caring and 123 00:06:45.000 --> 00:06:50.079 kind and loved him tremendously. Herbert was a good looking kid, 124 00:06:50.199 --> 00:06:53.759 he was smart, He played athletics, he was super big 125 00:06:53.839 --> 00:06:57.680 in football. You know, his dad kind of was transient 126 00:06:57.720 --> 00:06:59.399 a little bit. He moved from place to place for 127 00:06:59.439 --> 00:07:02.120 a while until kind of found his niche in Fulton, 128 00:07:02.199 --> 00:07:06.240 which is just outside of Santa Cruz. But there's nothing 129 00:07:07.560 --> 00:07:11.600 in this case, either from his parents when they were 130 00:07:11.680 --> 00:07:14.879 alive and talking about this case, and when Herbert's been 131 00:07:15.360 --> 00:07:19.319 talking about this case, especially recently trying to speak to 132 00:07:19.399 --> 00:07:23.600 the parole board trying to get released from ione prison, 133 00:07:24.680 --> 00:07:28.240 he doesn't ever mention anything about being abused, whether it 134 00:07:28.360 --> 00:07:34.000 was sexually or physically or emotionally. And he basically his 135 00:07:34.160 --> 00:07:38.800 childhood was, you know, standard American life. A good kid, 136 00:07:39.079 --> 00:07:42.360 did good in school, played sports, family was loving and 137 00:07:42.480 --> 00:07:48.519 then just one catastrophic event kind of literally overnight changed 138 00:07:48.560 --> 00:07:49.519 Herbert as a person. 139 00:07:52.240 --> 00:07:57.360 You talk about this traumatic event, if you say, he 140 00:07:57.480 --> 00:08:01.519 was really athletic and very poper and had a lot 141 00:08:01.560 --> 00:08:04.240 of friends, and was very good at football, really loved football. 142 00:08:04.639 --> 00:08:07.439 And he had a friend named Dean Richardson. What happened 143 00:08:08.199 --> 00:08:11.600 that you say really is an important turning for in 144 00:08:11.959 --> 00:08:14.879 Herbert's life? Seems yeah, this is. 145 00:08:15.480 --> 00:08:17.360 You know, we talked about serial killers and having a 146 00:08:18.199 --> 00:08:20.720 defining moment if you will, that kind of makes them snap, 147 00:08:20.800 --> 00:08:26.800 and and for Herbert it was his best friend, Dean Richardson. 148 00:08:26.959 --> 00:08:30.319 So these guys graduated high school together. 149 00:08:30.319 --> 00:08:32.720 I think it was called San Lorenzo Valley High School. 150 00:08:35.240 --> 00:08:36.399 They graduated together. 151 00:08:36.600 --> 00:08:37.960 Their basically whole lives. 152 00:08:37.759 --> 00:08:38.559 Were in front of him. 153 00:08:39.320 --> 00:08:42.639 They were super tight. You know, we all have buddies 154 00:08:42.679 --> 00:08:45.080 that we can remember back in the day where he 155 00:08:45.279 --> 00:08:47.000 just you know, he played hide and go seet together 156 00:08:47.120 --> 00:08:49.000 and tag. I don't know he does that anymore, but 157 00:08:49.559 --> 00:08:51.000 you know we used to. You know, you have people 158 00:08:51.080 --> 00:08:53.559 he hung out with. Well, Dean was his best buddy, 159 00:08:53.879 --> 00:08:56.960 his best friend. They were kind of inseparable and shortly 160 00:08:57.039 --> 00:09:03.000 after they graduated high school. Dean actually was out taking 161 00:09:03.039 --> 00:09:05.360 a spin in his car and he actually crashed his 162 00:09:05.519 --> 00:09:11.240 vehicle and passed away. And it's just, you know, the 163 00:09:11.399 --> 00:09:16.200 community was tight, the community was shocked, but nobody took 164 00:09:16.279 --> 00:09:21.879 it worse than Herbert. He completely lost his mind after 165 00:09:21.960 --> 00:09:25.320 the incident and ended up locking himself in his room 166 00:09:25.879 --> 00:09:29.399 for almost two weeks, at which point he built he 167 00:09:29.840 --> 00:09:33.320 was in the process of building a shrine to Dean. 168 00:09:33.960 --> 00:09:36.240 And that was kind of the event that that basically 169 00:09:36.360 --> 00:09:39.639 set this whole story going forward. Was with the passing 170 00:09:39.720 --> 00:09:40.519 of his best friend. 171 00:09:43.039 --> 00:09:45.559 We forgot to mention that he had met someone that's 172 00:09:45.600 --> 00:09:49.399 important to this story then and later in this later 173 00:09:49.519 --> 00:09:52.440 in the story named Loretta, and it was his high 174 00:09:52.480 --> 00:10:00.960 school sweethearts. And so after this, after odd behavior in 175 00:10:01.000 --> 00:10:04.879 these shrines to his best friend, Dean, he tells Loretta 176 00:10:05.039 --> 00:10:08.519 something that's very odd as well, and just the beginning 177 00:10:08.720 --> 00:10:11.759 of odd behavior from people that seem to think they 178 00:10:11.879 --> 00:10:12.200 know him. 179 00:10:13.000 --> 00:10:17.759 What does he say to her, I'm not entirely remembering 180 00:10:17.799 --> 00:10:20.720 what you're talking about, but I know that he he 181 00:10:21.080 --> 00:10:25.120 began kind of fascinated with the whole concept of the occult. 182 00:10:25.799 --> 00:10:28.799 So he basically started saying that he was hearing voices 183 00:10:30.000 --> 00:10:33.840 that God was speaking to him. He also was interested 184 00:10:33.960 --> 00:10:38.200 in uh using narcotics, and he started to experiment with 185 00:10:39.320 --> 00:10:43.159 marijuana at first, but then he unfortunately was exposed to LSD. 186 00:10:44.360 --> 00:10:48.320 So I can't remember exactly what she said, if you could, well. 187 00:10:48.919 --> 00:10:51.080 Said he broke up with her. He broke up with 188 00:10:51.159 --> 00:10:54.759 her early, and he said, oh, was that about the 189 00:10:55.159 --> 00:10:58.919 feelings for homosexuality? So he said he was homosexual. So 190 00:10:59.679 --> 00:11:01.879 so then yeah, talk about its. 191 00:11:04.679 --> 00:11:04.919 Good. 192 00:11:06.120 --> 00:11:12.679 Oh yeah, that was a big deal though, because go ahead, 193 00:11:12.679 --> 00:11:17.440 but I keep cutting you off. Go ahead, no, go ahead. 194 00:11:19.840 --> 00:11:24.600 So the thing with him being homosexual actually was a 195 00:11:24.720 --> 00:11:28.000 huge thing for Loretta because at some point when they 196 00:11:28.080 --> 00:11:31.320 first got together and throughout high school, there was some 197 00:11:31.440 --> 00:11:33.080 talk about how they were going to settle down and 198 00:11:33.120 --> 00:11:37.159 have a family and stuff, and that whole mention of 199 00:11:37.279 --> 00:11:39.720 being homosexual really caught her off guard. 200 00:11:39.799 --> 00:11:41.039 But he didn't want anybody else to know. 201 00:11:41.879 --> 00:11:43.519 So it's kind of a secret that he had. And 202 00:11:43.600 --> 00:11:48.320 he actually would end up having some sexual encounters with men, 203 00:11:48.480 --> 00:11:51.480 but her and Loretta and him were not finished then 204 00:11:51.559 --> 00:11:55.480 at that point they'd still have a tenuous relationship for 205 00:11:55.639 --> 00:11:56.480 several more years. 206 00:11:59.159 --> 00:12:01.720 Yes, you talked about this back and forth and then 207 00:12:02.559 --> 00:12:07.639 other incidents later with Loretta, you talk about this experimentation 208 00:12:07.799 --> 00:12:11.840 with LSD, and he also we talked about his father 209 00:12:12.000 --> 00:12:15.720 being a World War Two veteran hero. What does he 210 00:12:16.399 --> 00:12:21.480 from LSD and just I guess disagreements with his father, 211 00:12:21.799 --> 00:12:24.600 with his parents, what did he believe in and what 212 00:12:24.720 --> 00:12:30.840 did he move towards in college as a result of LSD. 213 00:12:32.919 --> 00:12:36.000 So when he was experimenting with marijuana and got some 214 00:12:36.240 --> 00:12:40.039 that was laced with LSD, his whole mind kind of shifted. 215 00:12:40.120 --> 00:12:41.960 He had a lot of fallout with his father. 216 00:12:42.480 --> 00:12:45.039 They had a lot of arguments, no physical battles, but 217 00:12:45.440 --> 00:12:51.279 a lot of verbal arguments. He started experimenting with Buddhism 218 00:12:52.840 --> 00:12:55.720 and again he got sucked into this occult thing with 219 00:12:55.840 --> 00:13:01.679 the supernatural, and actually he Herbert tried to join the 220 00:13:01.720 --> 00:13:05.039 military and he kept getting kicked out, and so he 221 00:13:05.159 --> 00:13:06.879 wanted to make his dad proud, I think, but he 222 00:13:06.919 --> 00:13:10.919 couldn't get in. And then he just switched gears completely. 223 00:13:12.120 --> 00:13:17.039 He decided that, you know, a different way of looking 224 00:13:17.120 --> 00:13:18.759 at life would be better for him. 225 00:13:19.080 --> 00:13:21.159 He kind of shined off the system, if you will. 226 00:13:23.120 --> 00:13:25.200 He was not a big fan of. 227 00:13:25.519 --> 00:13:29.000 America for a certain period of his life because he 228 00:13:29.039 --> 00:13:31.480 couldn't be a marine, and he couldn't get into the 229 00:13:32.000 --> 00:13:34.200 coast Guard, and he couldn't get into the army, although 230 00:13:34.240 --> 00:13:36.720 he kept trying. And so he kind of got into 231 00:13:36.799 --> 00:13:41.039 this whole thing with with Buddhism and looking at different 232 00:13:44.279 --> 00:13:47.440 areas of religion, and he kind of used that as 233 00:13:47.519 --> 00:13:49.759 a kind of thing to kind of piss off his 234 00:13:49.879 --> 00:13:52.480 dad because he knew his dad was who was not 235 00:13:52.600 --> 00:13:53.639 going to be supportive of that. 236 00:13:55.480 --> 00:14:01.399 Right. You talk about him being also turning into really 237 00:14:01.480 --> 00:14:05.000 too and later he may have just done part of 238 00:14:05.039 --> 00:14:07.279 it at least to piss off his father. As you 239 00:14:07.320 --> 00:14:11.679 say he was a conscientious objector to the war. And 240 00:14:12.000 --> 00:14:15.960 also talking about Loretta being yeah, being back and forth 241 00:14:16.039 --> 00:14:18.039 with the Loretta too, that there was a time when 242 00:14:18.240 --> 00:14:20.960 he was engaged to Loretta and then he broke off 243 00:14:21.000 --> 00:14:25.919 the engagement to Loretta. He was telling people was bisexual. 244 00:14:26.080 --> 00:14:29.679 But you say that she broke off this because of 245 00:14:29.799 --> 00:14:33.679 his drug use. Yeah, So they did that. 246 00:14:33.840 --> 00:14:35.799 They did cat and mouse for almost a year and 247 00:14:35.840 --> 00:14:39.279 a half and she tried to stick with him, but 248 00:14:39.440 --> 00:14:42.720 he just was not the same person she knew. And 249 00:14:44.399 --> 00:14:46.480 he did tell her that he was homosexual and He 250 00:14:46.519 --> 00:14:49.440 did have some homosexual ideation for sure, and he was experimenting, 251 00:14:50.639 --> 00:14:53.720 but at some point he started getting So Herbert was 252 00:14:53.799 --> 00:14:57.480 never a violent person until a little bit after these 253 00:14:57.879 --> 00:15:00.399 incidents that were talking about. He was more the guy 254 00:15:00.480 --> 00:15:03.000 who was the life of the party, the class clown, 255 00:15:03.600 --> 00:15:07.080 always known to be smiling and laughing. Well he was, 256 00:15:07.279 --> 00:15:09.399 you know, he made a complete one eighty and now 257 00:15:09.440 --> 00:15:15.159 he was being aggressive, angry, short with Loretta, and even 258 00:15:15.240 --> 00:15:17.600 though she had tried to stick by him for almost 259 00:15:17.639 --> 00:15:20.399 a year and a half, I think her probably friends 260 00:15:20.480 --> 00:15:23.240 in her heart, said hey, this is not good, and 261 00:15:23.360 --> 00:15:27.960 so she actually was the one who called it off, 262 00:15:28.039 --> 00:15:30.639 which was the first time she had actually done that. 263 00:15:31.559 --> 00:15:35.279 So I think it was another event where Dean passed 264 00:15:35.279 --> 00:15:39.440 away his best friend. He's experimenting with drugs, he's experimenting 265 00:15:39.519 --> 00:15:44.039 with sexuality. He's view on American culture is a little 266 00:15:44.039 --> 00:15:47.120 bit skewed. But now he's been toying with Loretta and 267 00:15:47.200 --> 00:15:50.360 now she finally says I'm done and walks away, and 268 00:15:50.360 --> 00:15:52.039 I think that kind of slapped him in the face 269 00:15:52.240 --> 00:15:52.679 big time. 270 00:15:52.759 --> 00:15:53.440 Reality Chuck. 271 00:15:56.159 --> 00:15:57.879 You talk about too that he had a job at 272 00:15:57.919 --> 00:16:01.360 Goodwill Industries, but he quits job and he's because he's 273 00:16:01.399 --> 00:16:05.919 going to move to India. Instead, he moves to Sebastopol, California, 274 00:16:06.039 --> 00:16:08.919 probably mispronounced that and living in a trailer on his 275 00:16:09.559 --> 00:16:13.480 on his sister and his brother in law's ranch. So 276 00:16:14.360 --> 00:16:20.080 what happened shortly after him being there? And you also 277 00:16:20.159 --> 00:16:24.840 talk about Mendocino State Hospital, So what happens almost soon 278 00:16:24.919 --> 00:16:30.120 after he get getting there. Yeah, so he he's he's 279 00:16:30.200 --> 00:16:32.840 drifting and he's spiraling out of control. 280 00:16:33.200 --> 00:16:37.759 He doesn't know exactly what's going on. I think the 281 00:16:37.879 --> 00:16:43.440 paranoid schizophrenia is fully grasped him. He's upset with his 282 00:16:43.559 --> 00:16:48.559 folks and the Goodwill manager was you know, notice that 283 00:16:48.679 --> 00:16:51.799 he was basically a star employee and now he's not 284 00:16:51.919 --> 00:16:55.200 showing up and he's saying bizarre things. So Herbert kind 285 00:16:55.240 --> 00:16:57.279 of he threatened to go to India, but he didn't go. 286 00:16:58.000 --> 00:17:01.120 He ends up at his sister's ranch. It's actually his 287 00:17:01.279 --> 00:17:04.079 sister's husband's ranch. But as soon as he gets there, 288 00:17:04.160 --> 00:17:08.599 almost within a couple of days, he basically starts asking 289 00:17:08.759 --> 00:17:13.359 his sister and her husband if they would like to 290 00:17:13.440 --> 00:17:17.960 have sex with him. And obviously his sister who knew him, 291 00:17:18.039 --> 00:17:21.000 she's lived with him, her whole life, and she knows him. 292 00:17:21.039 --> 00:17:23.599 She knows that that's bizarre, and that's when she makes 293 00:17:23.640 --> 00:17:27.920 a call to the police up that way and they 294 00:17:28.559 --> 00:17:30.200 they come out and they do what's called a fifty 295 00:17:30.240 --> 00:17:33.400 one to fifty, which is a mental healthhold. So essentially 296 00:17:33.440 --> 00:17:35.640 what that means is is the law enforcement officer would 297 00:17:35.680 --> 00:17:37.880 show up, they would try to talk to Herbert, and 298 00:17:37.960 --> 00:17:40.720 based on what he's saying and how he's acting, he 299 00:17:40.759 --> 00:17:43.559 can place them on a hold for their mental health 300 00:17:43.640 --> 00:17:45.519 so they can go talk to somebody. So in this case, 301 00:17:45.559 --> 00:17:47.359 he went to that hospital and. 302 00:17:47.400 --> 00:17:49.359 That was good and bad. 303 00:17:50.319 --> 00:17:52.519 He got a little bit of stability in in the 304 00:17:52.599 --> 00:17:55.720 hospital and he liked it was kind of an earmark 305 00:17:55.759 --> 00:17:59.480 for this case because he likes structure, which we'll talk 306 00:17:59.519 --> 00:18:02.519 about late her But he also was this was the 307 00:18:02.559 --> 00:18:06.839 first time diagnosed with schizophrenia, and he took that as 308 00:18:07.079 --> 00:18:10.960 him nobody understanding him, nobody getting him, and he kind 309 00:18:10.960 --> 00:18:13.480 of took it personal. He ends up walking out of 310 00:18:13.519 --> 00:18:15.759 that hospital, so it kind of it was good and 311 00:18:15.880 --> 00:18:18.680 bad if you will, for that that period. But his 312 00:18:18.799 --> 00:18:22.799 sister did not want to completely kick him out, but 313 00:18:23.119 --> 00:18:26.200 she obviously could not have her brother there asking to 314 00:18:26.240 --> 00:18:28.039 try to have sex with her and her husband. So 315 00:18:28.559 --> 00:18:29.440 it was a bad scene. 316 00:18:33.079 --> 00:18:35.039 You talk about too, that he didn't agree with the 317 00:18:35.279 --> 00:18:38.519 assessment of doctors and he didn't take the meds, or 318 00:18:38.519 --> 00:18:42.480 at least he didn't regularly take any medication that they suggested. 319 00:18:42.559 --> 00:18:42.799 Did he. 320 00:18:44.480 --> 00:18:44.519 No? 321 00:18:45.359 --> 00:18:48.440 And he also he did not, and he dove into books. 322 00:18:48.480 --> 00:18:50.799 I mean, Herbert was a smart guy. I mean, he 323 00:18:51.000 --> 00:18:53.680 was going to college. He took some college classes. 324 00:18:53.799 --> 00:18:56.319 He wanted to do the college thing, and when he 325 00:18:56.480 --> 00:19:00.839 heard the term schizophrenia, which wasn't wildly used back then, 326 00:19:02.039 --> 00:19:04.960 he started reading books and trying to see, well, you. 327 00:19:05.000 --> 00:19:07.480 Know, what does that mean? How do I deal with it? 328 00:19:07.960 --> 00:19:10.960 But he was extremely adamant that he would not take 329 00:19:11.079 --> 00:19:14.000 any medication to try to help balance him, and I 330 00:19:14.119 --> 00:19:16.920 think that was what led to all the things that 331 00:19:17.039 --> 00:19:18.119 we would talk about later. 332 00:19:20.640 --> 00:19:22.960 He also wanted to change his major because he was 333 00:19:23.000 --> 00:19:25.640 in engineering, taking courses to be an engineer, and he 334 00:19:26.400 --> 00:19:28.720 wanted to switch, as you say, to something that was 335 00:19:30.039 --> 00:19:32.960 quite novel at the time, which was psychology at that time. 336 00:19:33.200 --> 00:19:39.160 So realizing that he had heard the term schizophrenia, now, 337 00:19:39.519 --> 00:19:43.279 what was his if any run ins with the law 338 00:19:43.599 --> 00:19:47.200 or violence at that time other than this odd behavior. 339 00:19:47.359 --> 00:19:51.519 Was there any incidents that anybody and was he telling 340 00:19:51.559 --> 00:19:56.079 anybody about any violence whatsoever? Was there any mention of 341 00:19:56.240 --> 00:20:00.720 violence from him his first run in that the year, 342 00:20:01.519 --> 00:20:03.920 I think it was like the end of nineteen sixty seven. 343 00:20:04.039 --> 00:20:07.200 That's when he he basically drops out of school, becomes 344 00:20:07.240 --> 00:20:12.839 a conscientious objective and basically just kind of wants to 345 00:20:13.240 --> 00:20:15.319 live on the streets and kind of do his own thing, 346 00:20:15.480 --> 00:20:20.960 you know, buck you know, buck the system. And it's 347 00:20:21.079 --> 00:20:23.440 it's when he kind of decided that hey, it's me 348 00:20:23.559 --> 00:20:26.920 and I'm going to do my thing. And he ends 349 00:20:27.000 --> 00:20:29.359 up getting contacted just shortly after. So I think it 350 00:20:29.440 --> 00:20:32.640 was like nineteen maybe the beginning or like mid of 351 00:20:32.720 --> 00:20:35.599 nineteen sixty eight when he had his first contact law enforcement. 352 00:20:37.440 --> 00:20:40.119 An officer, a local officer in Santa Cruz contacts him 353 00:20:40.160 --> 00:20:43.759 on the street, pats him down, find some marijuana on him, 354 00:20:43.799 --> 00:20:45.599 and you know, back in nineteen sixty eight, that was 355 00:20:45.640 --> 00:20:50.200 a crime, and so he was taken to he was 356 00:20:50.319 --> 00:20:53.559 arrested and taken to jail. He went to jail and 357 00:20:54.680 --> 00:20:58.160 went to court, wasn't aggressive with the officer, didn't fight, 358 00:20:58.319 --> 00:21:02.359 didn't fight with jail staffs, didn't argue in court. But 359 00:21:02.480 --> 00:21:05.400 it was his first kind of excuse me, interaction with 360 00:21:05.480 --> 00:21:09.559 law enforcement, and he never mentioned that it rubbed him 361 00:21:09.559 --> 00:21:12.000 the wrong way, but there would be more encounters with 362 00:21:12.119 --> 00:21:16.920 police that would start to get more violent. After that incident, 363 00:21:17.000 --> 00:21:21.319 he was contacted again not too long later excuse me, 364 00:21:23.039 --> 00:21:25.440 and he was contacted again. This time he's walking across 365 00:21:25.519 --> 00:21:29.079 the street. He's making kind of odd statements to the officer. 366 00:21:29.279 --> 00:21:31.880 The officer thinks he might be somebody suffering from a 367 00:21:31.920 --> 00:21:34.039 mental health issue, but he ends up finding a knife 368 00:21:34.960 --> 00:21:37.319 on Herbert, and Herbert also gets a little bit aggressive 369 00:21:37.680 --> 00:21:39.319 with the officer. He kind of scuffles with him a 370 00:21:39.359 --> 00:21:42.640 little bit, the knife comes out. The officer basically says, 371 00:21:42.720 --> 00:21:45.799 he go for it. You know, I'll shoot and kill you. 372 00:21:46.559 --> 00:21:49.359 And you know, back then, I mean probably even today, 373 00:21:49.480 --> 00:21:51.160 but back then they probably would have shot and killed 374 00:21:51.200 --> 00:21:53.480 him if he tried to grab that knife. So kind 375 00:21:53.519 --> 00:21:56.119 of changed his opinion, changed Herbert's opinion a little bit 376 00:21:56.400 --> 00:21:59.759 about law enforcement. But so we went from you know, 377 00:22:00.000 --> 00:22:03.400 he's ession of marijuana to possible mental health issue, armed 378 00:22:03.440 --> 00:22:03.920 with the knife. 379 00:22:03.960 --> 00:22:06.119 So it's starting to kind of move in that. 380 00:22:06.240 --> 00:22:09.240 Direction of becoming a little bit more violent. 381 00:22:10.240 --> 00:22:11.319 So it was starting to. 382 00:22:11.359 --> 00:22:15.160 Take on, you know, go in the wrong direction, but 383 00:22:15.279 --> 00:22:17.079 nobody really was there to. 384 00:22:17.319 --> 00:22:19.480 Coach him or talk him off the ledge, so to speak. 385 00:22:19.559 --> 00:22:21.000 So kind of got. 386 00:22:23.480 --> 00:22:25.880 It, kind of got worse, it didn't get any better, 387 00:22:25.920 --> 00:22:28.279 and there was nobody really kind of watching over him 388 00:22:28.359 --> 00:22:29.160 or trying to help him. 389 00:22:31.680 --> 00:22:34.079 You talk about before that too, in nineteen seventy he 390 00:22:34.880 --> 00:22:38.039 or in nineteen seventy pardon me, he has continued to 391 00:22:38.079 --> 00:22:43.440 do LSD. He gets to Maui with a friend, Pat Brown, 392 00:22:43.519 --> 00:22:47.400 and then he's on his own. There, he's introduced to methamphetamine, 393 00:22:48.119 --> 00:22:53.079 which doesn't help him whatsoever. And then he's basically in 394 00:22:53.599 --> 00:22:59.880 a clinic in Maui and he is diagnosis gezo effectos schizophrenia. 395 00:23:01.079 --> 00:23:02.960 And he stayed there for four weeks. And you say, 396 00:23:03.160 --> 00:23:07.119 there is a lot of evidence that this time and 397 00:23:07.200 --> 00:23:10.519 a few other times that there is a relative stability, 398 00:23:11.079 --> 00:23:13.400 and then he moved seems to move forward in his life. 399 00:23:13.440 --> 00:23:17.119 So tell us a little bit about his trying to 400 00:23:17.200 --> 00:23:22.359 readmission to Carillo College and some of the instances where 401 00:23:22.440 --> 00:23:27.920