WEBVTT 1 00:00:05.280 --> 00:00:08.599 Hey, welcome back to another episode of JavaScript Chamber. 2 00:00:09.160 --> 00:00:10.800 This week, on our panel, we have Dan. 3 00:00:10.679 --> 00:00:12.919 Shapier, Hello from Tel Aviv. 4 00:00:13.599 --> 00:00:16.359 I'm Charles Maxwood from Top End Devs, Hello from. 5 00:00:16.199 --> 00:00:20.120 Lehigh, Utah. We also have a special guest, and that 6 00:00:20.359 --> 00:00:22.280 is you have Abraham. 7 00:00:22.519 --> 00:00:24.160 I hope I got I hope I got close. 8 00:00:24.239 --> 00:00:25.079 Man, got it right? 9 00:00:27.559 --> 00:00:30.399 Yeah, I got on when you guys were chatting when 10 00:00:30.399 --> 00:00:32.159 I hopped on and I was like, yeah, my. 11 00:00:32.200 --> 00:00:37.280 Hebrews atrocious because I don't speak it. So yeah, anyway, yeah, 12 00:00:37.320 --> 00:00:41.640 so you're VP. Did I get that right? No Cto 13 00:00:41.960 --> 00:00:44.679 of Enterprise at Wicks, Right. 14 00:00:45.280 --> 00:00:49.479 I'm CITYO of Wicks Enterprise, which is like a it's 15 00:00:49.960 --> 00:00:52.920 funny to say, it's like a small startup of trying 16 00:00:52.960 --> 00:00:57.000 to take Wicks which is mostly consumer product and designer 17 00:00:57.079 --> 00:01:03.520 product and adapted to enterprise. And okay, so it's exciting. 18 00:01:05.200 --> 00:01:05.719 Very cool. 19 00:01:06.640 --> 00:01:11.719 So we actually had before just you know, I was 20 00:01:11.760 --> 00:01:16.000 gonna say, yeah, we had you off before about almost 21 00:01:16.040 --> 00:01:18.040 two years about two years ago, I think. 22 00:01:18.120 --> 00:01:22.079 Two years ago. I think, Yeah, that that was that 23 00:01:22.239 --> 00:01:26.319 was exciting. Was a very different topic, I think, and 24 00:01:27.319 --> 00:01:31.439 we had a very heated debate there about clouds and code. 25 00:01:31.239 --> 00:01:35.959 Ownership yeah, with a j. Unfortunately you cannot join today. 26 00:01:37.359 --> 00:01:40.959 Yeah, I'll put a link into the into the chats, 27 00:01:41.200 --> 00:01:43.959 so you're watching on YouTube, you can pick it up 28 00:01:43.959 --> 00:01:47.840 there and and go listen to that one too. So 29 00:01:47.840 --> 00:01:50.519 so besides your I guess your title at Wicks, what 30 00:01:50.519 --> 00:01:52.719 else has changed last few years? 31 00:01:53.760 --> 00:01:56.959 So, you know, the first thing that to change was 32 00:01:57.040 --> 00:02:02.159 that I used to be the d of weeks development platform, 33 00:02:02.280 --> 00:02:05.040 a co ed of that, and moved to another position. 34 00:02:05.799 --> 00:02:10.800 I'm also working on another initiative, which part of it 35 00:02:10.879 --> 00:02:14.599 is creating a new web framework, which is kind of 36 00:02:14.680 --> 00:02:18.159 why I'm very interested in that topic of web frameworks. 37 00:02:18.879 --> 00:02:25.080 And I think those are two major things. So when 38 00:02:25.120 --> 00:02:27.680 you talk about Israel, there is another big thing that 39 00:02:27.759 --> 00:02:30.360 happened in the last year and a half. I think 40 00:02:30.360 --> 00:02:33.080 they will probably live that out of the podcast. 41 00:02:33.879 --> 00:02:40.159 Yeah, yeah, the political situation there is a little bit everything, 42 00:02:40.199 --> 00:02:44.479 but yeah, the war I keep hearing about hostage is 43 00:02:44.639 --> 00:02:46.000 coming home, which is a good thing. 44 00:02:46.120 --> 00:02:51.080 So yeah, the last few weeks have been, you know, 45 00:02:52.080 --> 00:02:57.240 kind of a bright spot in this pretty dark tunnel 46 00:02:57.599 --> 00:03:01.199 that hostages that have been held for or coming on 47 00:03:01.280 --> 00:03:04.479 five hundred days, yeah, or finally being. 48 00:03:04.280 --> 00:03:05.599 Released basically a year and a half. 49 00:03:05.879 --> 00:03:12.039 Yeah, yeah, yeah, hopefully it will continue. They are being released, 50 00:03:12.800 --> 00:03:17.439 you know, in small batches every a few every week, 51 00:03:17.520 --> 00:03:21.759 and hopefully this will continue anyway. Yeah yeah, let's talk 52 00:03:21.840 --> 00:03:23.840 tech though, Yeah, let's talk tech. 53 00:03:24.520 --> 00:03:27.120 So so framework, So you said you're building your own framework, 54 00:03:27.159 --> 00:03:29.360 which you know, I guess it's been a week, so 55 00:03:29.439 --> 00:03:33.520 we can use another one. Do you want to just 56 00:03:33.919 --> 00:03:36.039 talk briefly about that and what you're pulling together. 57 00:03:36.240 --> 00:03:38.520 I don't know. Maybe Dan had a different direction he 58 00:03:38.560 --> 00:03:39.199 wanted to take this. 59 00:03:39.680 --> 00:03:41.759 No, it's fine, I think. 60 00:03:42.919 --> 00:03:47.159 Yeah. What I'm trying to solve is the problem of 61 00:03:47.319 --> 00:03:54.319 designer and developer collaboration. Oh okay, so it's trying to 62 00:03:54.560 --> 00:04:02.680 do a framework that allows a designer to basically publish 63 00:04:03.039 --> 00:04:08.240 or deployed application. Okay, you know, think about the designer 64 00:04:08.400 --> 00:04:11.919 changing the application and deploying the application. That's kind of 65 00:04:11.960 --> 00:04:16.639 what I'm trying to solve. It's a it is a 66 00:04:16.759 --> 00:04:22.079 very very big requirement. And the funny thing is that 67 00:04:22.279 --> 00:04:27.199 it actually turns, it actually becomes eident at some point 68 00:04:27.360 --> 00:04:31.160 that it is actually the same requirement as allowing you 69 00:04:31.240 --> 00:04:35.360 to consume the party components in a safe way. So 70 00:04:35.480 --> 00:04:40.319 think about using someone component of another company and not 71 00:04:41.079 --> 00:04:44.199 being exposed to the to the code in a way 72 00:04:44.240 --> 00:04:49.120 that can risk creater risk to your application. And it's 73 00:04:49.199 --> 00:04:55.720 some out in order to support designer developer collaboration. When 74 00:04:56.079 --> 00:04:59.199 when you break that requirement down into what it means, 75 00:04:59.240 --> 00:05:04.399 you get that other possibility as well. Again, it's still 76 00:05:04.480 --> 00:05:08.839 working progress. It's very very experimental. So I'm not going 77 00:05:08.920 --> 00:05:13.279 to go and still the podcast making announcements, go and 78 00:05:13.319 --> 00:05:16.360 look and use my framework. That's not the point, but 79 00:05:16.399 --> 00:05:19.920 it is something of why I'm very opionated and why 80 00:05:19.959 --> 00:05:22.519 I'm looked very deeply into different frameworks. 81 00:05:23.600 --> 00:05:27.959 It's an interesting thing that when JavaScript and the dome 82 00:05:28.040 --> 00:05:32.639 along with it were created, they were created specifically for 83 00:05:32.839 --> 00:05:39.519 designers or tinkers. The actual developers were supposed to be 84 00:05:39.600 --> 00:05:43.480 using Java or something like that, and it's interesting to 85 00:05:43.519 --> 00:05:49.000 see how the developers have kind of co opted JavaScript 86 00:05:49.120 --> 00:05:53.879 and typeescript and with the frameworks, the heavy duty frameworks 87 00:05:53.879 --> 00:05:57.079 that we have today, they are definitely year towards developers 88 00:05:57.120 --> 00:06:00.519 and much less towards designers or people like that. You know, 89 00:06:00.639 --> 00:06:04.519 I'm thinking like, if I'm you know, somebody learning to 90 00:06:04.639 --> 00:06:09.920 code and being thrown into React, that's it's easy to 91 00:06:10.000 --> 00:06:11.720 drown I think. 92 00:06:14.040 --> 00:06:17.920 I think it's even more than that. I think I'll 93 00:06:17.920 --> 00:06:23.560 take you in two different directions. One, think about these 94 00:06:24.439 --> 00:06:28.879 and system fifteen years ago. Fifteen years ago, a developer 95 00:06:28.959 --> 00:06:32.279 would never deploy an application that would never happen. They 96 00:06:32.279 --> 00:06:34.800 would build something up, then give it to end it 97 00:06:34.839 --> 00:06:39.240 over the system. They would do acceptant tests, and then 98 00:06:39.319 --> 00:06:42.920 after testing, checking, they would deploy the application at some point. 99 00:06:43.360 --> 00:06:46.360 And then we had develops which change the way we work. 100 00:06:46.439 --> 00:06:51.360 It moved the responsibility to deploy and application from system 101 00:06:51.399 --> 00:06:54.639 to the developer, and it gave developers the tools to 102 00:06:54.720 --> 00:06:57.680 make the application work, and all different tools than the 103 00:06:57.680 --> 00:07:00.959 ones that system. And what I'm looking to do now 104 00:07:01.240 --> 00:07:04.839 is to shift it again from the developer to the designer. 105 00:07:06.040 --> 00:07:08.160 Just think about it. A designer that there has no 106 00:07:08.279 --> 00:07:11.720 idea how to code, is no understanding of creating the 107 00:07:11.879 --> 00:07:17.240 running application or stable application, would deploy your application. That 108 00:07:17.360 --> 00:07:20.800 sounds scary, but that's actually what happened with system and 109 00:07:20.839 --> 00:07:24.639 developers fifteen years ago. Now, it also means that the 110 00:07:24.639 --> 00:07:28.439 tools that the designers are using are very different. They're 111 00:07:28.439 --> 00:07:31.959 not going to write HTMIL or CSS. That's not how 112 00:07:32.079 --> 00:07:34.279 they work. If you go and look at what you're 113 00:07:34.399 --> 00:07:39.519 using Photoshop, Figma. You know, there's CONSI file tools. It's 114 00:07:39.519 --> 00:07:43.240 not HTML and CSS, so you need to bridge a 115 00:07:43.319 --> 00:07:47.079 much larger gap and then and over the responsibility to them, 116 00:07:47.639 --> 00:07:50.240 and then over the tools to them so that they 117 00:07:50.360 --> 00:07:53.480 can be effective and own the application. 118 00:07:55.079 --> 00:08:02.920 That's what we have AI for now. Well, you know, 119 00:08:04.160 --> 00:08:04.519 a I. 120 00:08:04.519 --> 00:08:09.040 Can do a lot, but unfortunately, up until today it 121 00:08:09.120 --> 00:08:13.639 didn't replace the developer all the designer. We still have 122 00:08:13.879 --> 00:08:17.079 a few years for us at least. 123 00:08:18.600 --> 00:08:21.079 You know, when people ask me if I'm worried about 124 00:08:22.839 --> 00:08:27.680 AI replacing development developers, I say, well, you know, eventually 125 00:08:27.720 --> 00:08:31.160 AI will replace everybody, so it's just a question of 126 00:08:31.240 --> 00:08:36.279 time when they'll get to you. Nobody is safe anyway. 127 00:08:37.480 --> 00:08:40.759 Yeah, yeah, when people ask me the question as well, 128 00:08:41.759 --> 00:08:44.919 not yet. I mean, some of the tools are really nice, 129 00:08:45.080 --> 00:08:48.399 but at the end of the day, making the decisions 130 00:08:48.399 --> 00:08:50.399 that I make, they just are not there at all. 131 00:08:52.879 --> 00:08:56.440 I think the easiest way to understand that is if 132 00:08:56.480 --> 00:09:02.000 you'll give an AI to fly jetliner. It would do 133 00:09:02.039 --> 00:09:05.960 that very well, probably better than any human pilot. It 134 00:09:06.000 --> 00:09:10.200 would flew. It would fly a plane in a very 135 00:09:10.240 --> 00:09:14.000 correct way mountain. It would be very correct and a 136 00:09:14.240 --> 00:09:17.879 very smooth flight. But it's okay for it to fly 137 00:09:18.039 --> 00:09:21.879 into a mountain. So I think this is kind of 138 00:09:21.919 --> 00:09:23.000 the god with a I. 139 00:09:24.240 --> 00:09:27.159 You remind me, I had a friend who was an 140 00:09:27.159 --> 00:09:31.039 airline pilot and he basically described his job to me 141 00:09:31.240 --> 00:09:36.600 once as like one hundred hours of boredom and five 142 00:09:36.639 --> 00:09:37.799 minutes of pure terror. 143 00:09:42.759 --> 00:09:46.639 Yeah, we've had autopilot for years and it's been a 144 00:09:46.679 --> 00:09:50.240 tool that the pilots have used for years, and. 145 00:09:50.360 --> 00:09:51.279 It's worked great. 146 00:09:51.399 --> 00:09:55.679 You know, we typically don't see too many airline catastrophes 147 00:09:55.799 --> 00:10:01.960 the last week notwithstanding. And you know, but it's a 148 00:10:02.000 --> 00:10:04.759 different problem, it's a different set of problems than what 149 00:10:04.799 --> 00:10:05.879 we're talking about with programming. 150 00:10:05.919 --> 00:10:08.919 Well, it's actually easier for an AI to fly plane 151 00:10:08.960 --> 00:10:11.080 than to drive a car. But you know, let's pull 152 00:10:11.200 --> 00:10:14.039 let's I would like to pull us back to talk 153 00:10:14.120 --> 00:10:17.480 about frameworks. And I would actually like to start with 154 00:10:17.519 --> 00:10:19.679 something that I've been thinking about a lot, and in 155 00:10:19.720 --> 00:10:24.279 fact even had kind of a change of a perspective about. 156 00:10:24.600 --> 00:10:26.519 And I can talk about that, but I first would 157 00:10:26.559 --> 00:10:29.600 like to hear you you have and that's talking about 158 00:10:29.759 --> 00:10:36.399 what are in fact framework, what constitutes a framework versus say, 159 00:10:36.679 --> 00:10:39.360 you know, a library or a set of tools or 160 00:10:39.360 --> 00:10:40.720 an application or whatever. 161 00:10:42.519 --> 00:10:47.240 So you know. For me, the definition is actually actually 162 00:10:47.240 --> 00:10:53.840 pretty simple. Every software, everything, any kind of software in 163 00:10:53.879 --> 00:10:58.200 the world can be split into two kinds of interactions. 164 00:10:59.000 --> 00:11:01.840 There is an interaction that is going into your code 165 00:11:01.879 --> 00:11:05.440 something calling your code, and there is an interaction where 166 00:11:05.480 --> 00:11:11.000 your code is called calling something else. Now, when your 167 00:11:11.080 --> 00:11:15.039 code is calling something else, you have a choice. You 168 00:11:15.080 --> 00:11:18.639 can choose which tool you are going to use to 169 00:11:18.679 --> 00:11:22.120 call something else. Now you have to use a tool. 170 00:11:22.240 --> 00:11:25.039 There is no way to call something else without using 171 00:11:25.039 --> 00:11:28.360 a tool. Might be a system library, might be a 172 00:11:28.440 --> 00:11:32.120 built in library, might be some ail level library like 173 00:11:32.240 --> 00:11:36.879 NTM or some other package. But there is always you 174 00:11:37.559 --> 00:11:40.720 have the choice almost everywhere of what you use. That 175 00:11:40.840 --> 00:11:42.559 is where it is a set of tools you can 176 00:11:42.639 --> 00:11:47.399 just choose from. But when you are being called, you 177 00:11:47.440 --> 00:11:50.559 don't have the choice of who is calling you. You 178 00:11:50.759 --> 00:11:56.440 are building an application within some kind of a container 179 00:11:56.600 --> 00:11:59.840 that runs your code, or some kind of box that 180 00:12:00.759 --> 00:12:04.120 calls your code. This is what is a framework. It 181 00:12:04.240 --> 00:12:08.639 is a frame that is activating your code on different 182 00:12:08.799 --> 00:12:11.840 entry points. And then your code can choose to different 183 00:12:11.840 --> 00:12:15.279 teams and give and call some exit points, some using 184 00:12:15.320 --> 00:12:17.399 some utilities and some tools. 185 00:12:18.639 --> 00:12:24.600 So I had the exact same outlook on frameworks versus liberries. 186 00:12:24.879 --> 00:12:29.039 But then my point of view shifted a little bit, 187 00:12:30.159 --> 00:12:33.120 and now I think about it more in the context 188 00:12:33.159 --> 00:12:38.879 of architecture. When I think about when you're dictating the 189 00:12:39.039 --> 00:12:44.960 architecture its libraries, When the architecture is kind of dictated 190 00:12:45.000 --> 00:12:47.960 to you, that's a framework. 191 00:12:49.240 --> 00:12:50.399 But it's kind of the same same. 192 00:12:53.039 --> 00:12:56.840 Yeah, you's a big overlap, but it does shift the 193 00:12:56.919 --> 00:13:02.519 perspective a bit. I think that the best frameworks are 194 00:13:02.759 --> 00:13:06.799 the frameworks that the architect that they make the architecture 195 00:13:06.840 --> 00:13:11.480 of the solution that you're going to build more clearer. 196 00:13:11.679 --> 00:13:16.279 Let's let's put it this way. You know where the 197 00:13:16.320 --> 00:13:18.080 pieces are supposed to slide in. 198 00:13:20.039 --> 00:13:22.559 I think what you're talking here is about something a 199 00:13:22.600 --> 00:13:27.000 little bit different when you talk about, you know, frameworks. 200 00:13:27.039 --> 00:13:32.559 There's a few concepts that have emerged over time to 201 00:13:32.720 --> 00:13:38.440 make software to be easier to code against. One is 202 00:13:38.440 --> 00:13:42.320 the ability to make it easy to be tested in 203 00:13:42.360 --> 00:13:45.960 a simple environment. Another one is the concept of locality 204 00:13:46.279 --> 00:13:49.240 of definition, so that all of the concerns are in 205 00:13:49.320 --> 00:13:54.600 one file and not spread across multiple files. And another 206 00:13:54.679 --> 00:13:56.320 thing that is a bit of a little bit subtle 207 00:13:57.159 --> 00:14:02.279 is that the syntax is that when you read it, 208 00:14:02.600 --> 00:14:05.840 you can understand what it does. You know, people tend 209 00:14:05.840 --> 00:14:08.399 to call it no magic, but I don't like that 210 00:14:08.480 --> 00:14:13.000 definition because we as developers consider everything smart that someone 211 00:14:13.039 --> 00:14:16.919 has written as magic. So it's not. I won't say that. 212 00:14:16.960 --> 00:14:22.360 I would say that if it makes you right in 213 00:14:22.480 --> 00:14:27.080 a syntax that is easy for the average developer that 214 00:14:27.200 --> 00:14:30.200 is working with you to understand what's going on, then 215 00:14:30.320 --> 00:14:32.519 it is probably doing something good. 216 00:14:32.679 --> 00:14:37.480 That fair the principle of least surprise basically, yeah. 217 00:14:37.759 --> 00:14:39.519 So it's look yeah. 218 00:14:40.360 --> 00:14:44.039 So my question with that is, so, I mean, folks 219 00:14:44.080 --> 00:14:46.080 that listen to the show know that I do most 220 00:14:46.080 --> 00:14:48.559 of my work in Ruby on rails. And some of 221 00:14:48.600 --> 00:14:51.240 that is true, right, some of it if you really 222 00:14:51.279 --> 00:14:53.279 read stuff, or you read the code and it's you know, 223 00:14:53.320 --> 00:14:55.360 you pretty intuitively know what it does. 224 00:14:55.840 --> 00:14:56.440 So some of the. 225 00:14:56.399 --> 00:14:59.279 Stuff you pretty intuitively know what it does because you've 226 00:14:59.279 --> 00:15:01.879 been doing rails for twenty years, right, and so you 227 00:15:01.919 --> 00:15:03.559 look at it and you know what the conventions are 228 00:15:03.600 --> 00:15:04.200 and you follow it. 229 00:15:04.399 --> 00:15:05.879 So how much of it's one and how much of 230 00:15:05.919 --> 00:15:06.600 it's the other? Right? 231 00:15:06.639 --> 00:15:10.240 With react or view or any of these other tools 232 00:15:10.559 --> 00:15:13.440 that might give you that sense of Okay, I can 233 00:15:13.480 --> 00:15:14.639 look at this code and know what it is. 234 00:15:14.879 --> 00:15:15.720 How much of that is? 235 00:15:16.399 --> 00:15:19.039 Wow, it clarifies that that's what's going on here, and 236 00:15:19.039 --> 00:15:21.159 how much of that is I've been doing react for 237 00:15:21.200 --> 00:15:23.360 long enough that I know what that's what this code is. 238 00:15:24.600 --> 00:15:29.519 You know, the measure of ooh against uh. Theory about 239 00:15:29.519 --> 00:15:33.440 that when you go into a new system and you're like, hey, 240 00:15:33.559 --> 00:15:37.039 doing something really exciting. Whoa, and then you when you 241 00:15:37.159 --> 00:15:39.480 go into another and then you try to make it 242 00:15:39.519 --> 00:15:42.279 do something it doesn't work, and then you figure, ah, 243 00:15:42.559 --> 00:15:46.279 it has to work that way. That's not intuitive. You know, 244 00:15:46.360 --> 00:15:49.159 that's the measure. It's the measure how much times it's 245 00:15:49.200 --> 00:15:50.960 doing things in the way you expect it to be 246 00:15:51.039 --> 00:15:54.279 doing versus how much times it surprises you're doing something 247 00:15:54.320 --> 00:15:57.320 in a very unintuitive way. This is kind of a 248 00:15:57.399 --> 00:16:01.679 measure for APIs and the local tools to know how 249 00:16:01.720 --> 00:16:05.279 good they are the moments against the ouh moments. 250 00:16:06.039 --> 00:16:08.600 Yeah, I would like to add to that. You know, 251 00:16:08.639 --> 00:16:10.799 at the end of the day, I'm always drawn back 252 00:16:10.840 --> 00:16:15.559 to the No Silver Bullet article that talks about essential 253 00:16:15.720 --> 00:16:22.519 versus what was the other one? Essential complexity versus non 254 00:16:22.639 --> 00:16:28.080 essential complexity and you know, we are solving complicated problems, 255 00:16:28.159 --> 00:16:33.960 at least we strive to. And when you solve complicated problems, 256 00:16:34.039 --> 00:16:39.320 even when there are strong guidelines for what the architecture 257 00:16:39.360 --> 00:16:44.159 should be like, don't expect the solution to be trivial. 258 00:16:44.840 --> 00:16:47.279 That's point number one and point number two. You know, 259 00:16:47.399 --> 00:16:49.879 you try to make your system idiot proof, but then 260 00:16:49.960 --> 00:16:53.720 somebody goes along and invents a better idiot. So people 261 00:16:53.799 --> 00:16:57.519 will always find way to surprise you and work against 262 00:16:57.559 --> 00:17:04.599 the grain of what the framework encouragees you know. 263 00:17:04.640 --> 00:17:09.799 But I think, I think then sorry, you need you 264 00:17:09.880 --> 00:17:15.119 need to look at frameworks in in three different aspects. 265 00:17:15.839 --> 00:17:19.680 There is one which is the functional aspect does it that? 266 00:17:19.880 --> 00:17:23.079 Does does it doing? Is it doing what you needed 267 00:17:23.200 --> 00:17:29.400 to be doing? And are different frameworks similar in terms 268 00:17:29.440 --> 00:17:32.680 of the functional aspects of the framework regardless of the syntax. 269 00:17:33.559 --> 00:17:36.079 And then there is a second question, which is when 270 00:17:36.119 --> 00:17:40.920 you look at the non functionals like like performance, for instance, 271 00:17:42.240 --> 00:17:45.599 are the record or do you do you even care? 272 00:17:45.799 --> 00:17:50.200 Is the difference significant? And for example, is the fact 273 00:17:50.200 --> 00:17:55.160 that svelt is much more efficient then react? Is it 274 00:17:55.200 --> 00:17:58.240 something you really care about in your specific case, your 275 00:17:58.279 --> 00:18:02.519 specific application. And only after you're done with those two 276 00:18:02.599 --> 00:18:05.720 with the functional and non functional only then you come 277 00:18:05.799 --> 00:18:09.799 to syntax and you all knows you are with the developer. 278 00:18:12.160 --> 00:18:15.640 Yeah, but look, when I think about React, for example, 279 00:18:16.559 --> 00:18:20.759 for me, the core of React are a few well 280 00:18:20.799 --> 00:18:24.160 defined concepts, and now it's pretty unfortunate that a lot 281 00:18:24.200 --> 00:18:27.319 of React developers may not actually be familiar with these 282 00:18:27.359 --> 00:18:30.640 core concepts. And the core concepts, by the way, are 283 00:18:32.000 --> 00:18:37.839 regenerate the UI as a function, regenerating the entire UI 284 00:18:38.279 --> 00:18:41.880 from the state whenever the state changes and you need 285 00:18:41.920 --> 00:18:46.079 directional data flow. Maybe I'm missing one or another one, 286 00:18:46.319 --> 00:18:48.759 but those are like the core concepts for me when 287 00:18:48.759 --> 00:18:51.319 I'm thinking about React, and then when I think about 288 00:18:51.440 --> 00:18:55.039 let's say Solid, it has different core concepts. Or if 289 00:18:55.079 --> 00:18:58.279 I'm thinking about Spelt, it also has different core concepts. 290 00:18:58.599 --> 00:19:03.519 So a big part of ideally of choosing a framework 291 00:19:03.640 --> 00:19:08.440 would have been choosing the framework whose architecture or the 292 00:19:08.519 --> 00:19:13.519 architecture that it advocates for for building applications best suits 293 00:19:13.759 --> 00:19:17.240 your personal tastes. Now, unfortunately most of us don't go 294 00:19:17.319 --> 00:19:22.799 through this process. That's a framework choice is tendable. Yeah, 295 00:19:23.160 --> 00:19:25.319 just to finish because in a lot of cases, the 296 00:19:25.359 --> 00:19:28.039 framework choice is kind of dictated to us. 297 00:19:28.799 --> 00:19:33.440 You're right, it's again it's assuming that functional is equal 298 00:19:34.079 --> 00:19:36.880 and assuming that the non functional is equal, then you 299 00:19:36.960 --> 00:19:39.480 come to aesthetics. And what you're talking about is still 300 00:19:39.720 --> 00:19:43.119 just aesthetics. And you know React, you brought the concept 301 00:19:43.160 --> 00:19:49.480 of React. React is neither reactive nor functional today. You know, 302 00:19:49.720 --> 00:19:54.599 it's it's it has done a lot, does it done 303 00:19:54.880 --> 00:19:58.519 a huge work moving us forward, as you know, fronted 304 00:19:58.519 --> 00:20:02.680 developers it there is a reason why it is the 305 00:20:02.759 --> 00:20:05.799 number one firm of today in the world, right, but 306 00:20:05.880 --> 00:20:10.359 it's kind of not what it aimed at doing. You know, 307 00:20:10.960 --> 00:20:16.359 context is you could argue that props, context, and state 308 00:20:16.839 --> 00:20:19.759 are all different ways to get data into the function, 309 00:20:20.400 --> 00:20:21.680 and two of them are not functional. 310 00:20:24.319 --> 00:20:28.160 Well, you know, the dom is not functional. JavaScript is 311 00:20:28.200 --> 00:20:34.079 not functional, and you're kind of living within the framework 312 00:20:34.119 --> 00:20:37.839 itself is living within the confines of the environment that 313 00:20:37.880 --> 00:20:41.599 it's built on. There, you know, you could go with 314 00:20:41.759 --> 00:20:44.240 ELM if you know, if you really want to go 315 00:20:44.319 --> 00:20:47.839 to the extreme, but that you know, there's a price 316 00:20:47.880 --> 00:20:50.240 to pay for that as well. You know, let's say 317 00:20:50.759 --> 00:20:54.960 ditching JavaScript in favor of ELM or reason or something 318 00:20:55.039 --> 00:20:55.440 like that. 319 00:20:56.720 --> 00:20:59.599 No one said that the esthetics is simple getting the 320 00:20:59.599 --> 00:21:04.400 hostel of a FERMUK in the right way is super hard, 321 00:21:04.960 --> 00:21:07.400 and there is reason why we have lots of frameworks 322 00:21:07.759 --> 00:21:11.759 trying different directions and different things. You know, you look 323 00:21:11.759 --> 00:21:16.759 at what's happening today. There is one major direction going 324 00:21:16.799 --> 00:21:21.960 on today, which is signals. Everyone except React as signals today. 325 00:21:23.440 --> 00:21:25.480 There might be some old firms that don't have them, 326 00:21:25.519 --> 00:21:28.799 that they didn't adopt signals, but almost everyone except React 327 00:21:29.079 --> 00:21:33.160 are using signals as the main obstruction for state management. 328 00:21:33.960 --> 00:21:40.279 And there is a reason behind that. It Trying signals 329 00:21:40.319 --> 00:21:45.480 on different places, different frameworks, different syntaxes seems to work. 330 00:21:45.880 --> 00:21:50.039 Trying signals in terms of the non functional performance, Okay, again, 331 00:21:50.039 --> 00:21:52.079 it seems to work. It seems to be something that 332 00:21:52.119 --> 00:21:56.160 people comprint. By the way, signals is not a trivial team. 333 00:21:56.240 --> 00:21:58.559 It takes time to understand that, but once you do, 334 00:21:59.079 --> 00:22:03.000 it becomes something that is very robust to use. So 335 00:22:03.440 --> 00:22:05.359 again it's just aesthetics. 336 00:22:06.160 --> 00:22:10.640 Well for me, it's more than aesthetic actually, because it 337 00:22:10.880 --> 00:22:15.599 informs the way that you deconstruct or the problem and 338 00:22:15.640 --> 00:22:22.920 then construct the solution. So for example, first of all, 339 00:22:22.920 --> 00:22:25.240 I'd like to mention, by the way that when we 340 00:22:25.319 --> 00:22:29.480 had Joe Savona and Satia FROMETA to talk about the 341 00:22:29.519 --> 00:22:35.880 React compiler. Joe said very clearly that signals are not 342 00:22:36.039 --> 00:22:39.440 in reacts future. He basically said, you know, if if 343 00:22:39.599 --> 00:22:42.599 signals become a part of the JavaScript language, there is 344 00:22:42.640 --> 00:22:46.000 actually a proposal for that, then then we will, and 345 00:22:46.039 --> 00:22:50.680 I'm speaking for Joe, then we will support it. But otherwise, 346 00:22:51.319 --> 00:22:55.599 no signals for React because that's not the that's not 347 00:22:55.759 --> 00:23:01.000 their vision for how front and applications should be built. 348 00:23:02.400 --> 00:23:05.640 Their whole thing is about, you know, reconciliation and stuff 349 00:23:05.640 --> 00:23:06.039 like that. 350 00:23:08.559 --> 00:23:10.680 I'll talk at what you're saying right now. You're talking 351 00:23:10.720 --> 00:23:12.839 about opinions of. 352 00:23:12.799 --> 00:23:16.799 Course, frameworks, our opinions that that's kind of my point. 353 00:23:19.160 --> 00:23:22.279 Well, I to be honest, I don't agree. I think 354 00:23:22.319 --> 00:23:26.200 that this is kind of this is kind of this 355 00:23:26.319 --> 00:23:33.680 is kind of a state we arrived by forgetting the 356 00:23:33.759 --> 00:23:37.599 functional and unfunctional requirements, and we kind of set it 357 00:23:37.960 --> 00:23:42.319 very you know, very basic frameworks that are in your 358 00:23:42.519 --> 00:23:45.200 not really that are just competing with one another on 359 00:23:45.920 --> 00:23:49.359 aesthetics and performance and that's it. But there's a lot 360 00:23:49.440 --> 00:23:53.799 more other stuff that you can compete on, such as 361 00:23:55.559 --> 00:23:59.960 let's talk about web essentials. You know, web essentials is 362 00:24:00.039 --> 00:24:04.680 a list of I think probably thirteen fourteen items that 363 00:24:04.839 --> 00:24:07.480 when you're doing, when you are working as a web developer, 364 00:24:08.200 --> 00:24:11.240 you need to take care of. And there are things 365 00:24:11.319 --> 00:24:19.559 like creating responsive design, being performan breakpoints, multilingual, a BIT testing, 366 00:24:19.799 --> 00:24:21.799 so ABY testing is actually not a web essential, but 367 00:24:21.920 --> 00:24:28.400 it's nice to have cookies regulation in the EU, accessibility 368 00:24:28.480 --> 00:24:32.400 the new accessibility regulation in the U now a g 369 00:24:32.519 --> 00:24:35.480 DPR p i R, and there's more. 370 00:24:36.160 --> 00:24:39.279 And all of those are lists somewhere that I could 371 00:24:39.319 --> 00:24:40.400 just publish. 372 00:24:41.039 --> 00:24:43.279 I have it in my I have it somewhere I can, 373 00:24:43.319 --> 00:24:47.000 I can send it to you. And basically all of 374 00:24:47.000 --> 00:24:49.599 that list is anything you're doing, anything that is customer 375 00:24:49.720 --> 00:24:52.440 facing on the Internet, you have to take care of 376 00:24:52.599 --> 00:24:56.759 all of that list. If you're doing an enterprise behind 377 00:24:56.799 --> 00:24:59.519 the behind the look in, you need to take care 378 00:24:59.559 --> 00:25:03.359 of most of it. And your se O is another one. 379 00:25:03.960 --> 00:25:08.039 And all of the cost lot of money. Why aren't 380 00:25:08.160 --> 00:25:11.880 frameworks helping us with all of that list of stuff? 381 00:25:14.920 --> 00:25:21.680 I think when you start talking about these things, you're again, 382 00:25:21.720 --> 00:25:25.960 and it's an interesting distinction to make from what I see, 383 00:25:26.000 --> 00:25:31.319 you're starting to move from talking about frameworks to talking 384 00:25:31.359 --> 00:25:35.400 about meta frameworks, from talking about react to talking about 385 00:25:35.559 --> 00:25:38.279 the next JS, from talking about view to talking about 386 00:25:38.400 --> 00:25:41.640 next and so on and so forth. At least that's 387 00:25:41.680 --> 00:25:45.799 been my experience with these sorts of things. Most frameworks 388 00:25:45.799 --> 00:25:50.519 these days have a much lower bar in the in 389 00:25:50.559 --> 00:25:53.480 the functionality that they're trying to provide. There are more 390 00:25:53.519 --> 00:25:58.359 about you know, use us instead of using just the DOM. 391 00:26:00.640 --> 00:26:02.519 But keep in mind when you talk when you asked 392 00:26:02.559 --> 00:26:07.599 about what is the definition of framework, I framok is 393 00:26:07.640 --> 00:26:12.240 not defined as only something on the client that interacts 394 00:26:12.519 --> 00:26:16.599 with the don It is defined, as you said, as 395 00:26:16.640 --> 00:26:21.240 something that imposes an architecture on your application that guides 396 00:26:21.279 --> 00:26:25.599 you into building better software. With that definition, I would 397 00:26:25.599 --> 00:26:30.079 expect the sub the framework to help me with all 398 00:26:30.079 --> 00:26:32.559 of the web essentials as well, because it's something I 399 00:26:32.599 --> 00:26:35.400 have to do. It's something those are more constraints my 400 00:26:35.480 --> 00:26:39.400 applications to work with. I would expect the architecture of 401 00:26:39.480 --> 00:26:43.039