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Speaker 1: These are the elders I was talking about, right, They're

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not just olders. Let's make that distinction. It's not just

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because somebody's old. Elder means you have suffered enormously direct

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contact with the complexity of life and have metabolized that

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into a capacity to be in more relationship, more intimate

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relationship with reality. You know, when you look at the fathers,

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say well, who are they? Well, they were guys who

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were up here and what they said is true. But

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until you can connect it to something that you can

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actually own in your own experience, you don't have piece these.

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You have knowledge, and knowledge isn't going to do you

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much good in reality. Piece these will do you great

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in reality. And that I think is the real pivot

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that we have to make, is to say, look, we

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cannot be saved from suffering. That's not how it works.

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In fact, as Christians, we kind of recognize that if

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we're told to follow me, we know we're following me

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leads we cannot be saved from suffering. We're choosing to

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enter into that reality. That's the reality we're entering into. Well,

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one of the aspects of suffering is that it's not

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call it it's not a bug. The problem of suffering

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is not the problem. The problem maybe is meaningless suffering.

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We're suffering, we don't actually put it to proper use.

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Speaker 2: That's a problem.

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Speaker 3: This is Jonathan Pegel, Welcome to the symbolic world.

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Speaker 4: We were talking in private for a while and we

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didn't We haven't done a podcast in a very long time,

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so it seems like it's a yeah, it's good to

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catch up and to see you know, how things have

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been doing.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. In fact, I think I might be wrong. You know,

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these things have been going on forever, but I don't

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think that the last time you and I spoke, let's

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say publicly, I had come out of the closet.

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Speaker 4: That's right. And the last time we talked you hadn't.

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At least you had started saying the publicly that you're

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a Christian, and then we had some conversations in private

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and so so and so. Yeah, so it is the

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first official time that we talked since you you came out.

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Speaker 5: You say you came out of the clout. That's funny.

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Speaker 1: And I think appropriating terms is perfectly legitimate.

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Speaker 4: Yes, appropriate, perfectly legitm And so let's say, how how

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has it been for you, like in the transition towards

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towards Christianity, Like I mean, because it's changed. I mean,

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your whole life is probably quite different.

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Speaker 1: Now, Okay, well, I'm gonna maybe have to use a

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kind of a crazy metaphor. But it's the first step.

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The first step of the metaphor is a little bit

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life going over a waterfall.

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Speaker 2: Uh huh.

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Speaker 1: The second step of the metaphor is even crazier, which

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is you begin to realize that there's no bottom to

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the waterfall. And then the third step is you begin

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to notice that the whole thing is actually learning how

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to swim in a bottomless waterfall. Something like that. I mean,

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everything just moves, it's move. Things are just moving continuously,

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rapidly and with an increasing level of the right way

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of describing it, like secure surprise, something like that. Yeah,

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it's been amazing. Yeah.

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Speaker 4: And and so let's say, I mean, for the people

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that are watching, you know, my question would be because

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one of the things that that you are known for

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is trying to think of.

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Speaker 3: Let's say, solutions or ways of ways of seeing.

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Speaker 4: The world that can help us figure out what's going

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on and also help us, you know, try to see

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what direction we should be aiming, you know, individually, but

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also let's say as communities, uh, and even globally. Let's say,

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and so my question to you is, you know, since

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you've converted to Christianity, has that changed your perception let's say,

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when you think strategically, or when you think about, you know,

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how how we should act as a society, or how

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we should align ourselves.

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Speaker 5: Like, what, how has that change for you?

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Speaker 1: And that's a very it's a very subtle questions. Let

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me see if I can respond with something like clarity.

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The framework that I think is maybe the best is

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one that a friend of mine gave a while back,

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which is this notion of the in music, the movement

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from rhythm to tone. So you have a rhythm that

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has a certain bpms, you say, start at ten right,

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such just a beat, and then as you increase the bpm,

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it starts to happen. What happens is you can kind

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of graph it this. This is a visual me putting

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on an X Y graph as the as the as

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the beat starts to accelerate, it has this really interesting

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thing where it transitions to a tone. I think it

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changes from just a series of beats that have no

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tonality to them and kind of magically converts into something

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that your ear now actually hears as a quality of tone.

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And that ability the fact that reality consists of the

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capacity to move from quantity increasing beats to quality. The

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presence of tone is on the one hand, by the way,

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super fundamental. But in this case it also has to

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do with what the supply, say, rationality or strategy or

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the application of intelligence across energy. These are all more

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or less of the same plane, and as there's a

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process of endeavoring or even needing to increase those in

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velocity or bandwidth would be the actual, weirdly technical term.

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What begins to happen is you notice there's a lift,

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of vertical lift that is of a qualitative nature. And

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so a way of saying it is something like we

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have exited the realm where the concept of strategy is

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applicable or viable.

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Speaker 5: That's interesting, or.

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Speaker 1: Are shortly going there, we're heading there rapidly, and that

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could be concrete, for example, the notion of we kind

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of move us to a slightly different domain that has

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the same pattern. Let's just talk about, say, the tension

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between AI and the human mind that thinks that it

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is something like AI. And what I mean is, you know,

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the the arc of the Enlightenment had this really interesting

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thing where it started taking human beings as being more

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like machines I call the mediocre machines. And like the

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really concrete examples, we literally had people whose job was

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to calculate, to do reliably and quickly they were calculators yea,

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and the folks realized you could make digital calculators that

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were better. Okay, well, that whole function of the human mind.

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There are no more calculators, except for maybe for fun

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who was replaced by tech calculators. But the broader point

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is that's actually sort of commonplace, like effectively all functions.

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At the end of kind of modern modernity and the

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version of capitalism that is subordinated to modernity are situations

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where the human has been converted into something like a

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mediocre machine. What do you want accounting?

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Speaker 5: Yeah, factory worker is the ultimate example.

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Speaker 4: Basically like just doing a repetitive gesture until I get

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a machine that can do it for you and.

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Speaker 1: Then for you. And then the point is like we say, okay,

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what are more advanced things like software engineer or doctor

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you're like, wait a minute, that's just a more sophisticated,

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mediocre machine. Because as we accelerate towards AI, we begin

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to notice that AI can kind of do that and

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maybe kind of do it better. Yeah, oh well, now

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you have this problem. Do you, as a human say, well,

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the thing I have to do is now like race

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faster than AI, so I can stay ahead of the

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event horizon of than nothing as it consumes all human activity.

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And you can for a while, but you won't. It

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won't work because it's going faster. Or oh, wait a minute,

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there's a vertical dimension that's completely different modally in nature,

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which is not just part of what is human, but

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is actually more human, vastly more human, and of which

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AI has new relationship at all. So that's like one

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example of this notion that makes any sense.

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Speaker 2: Sorry, Oh, it.

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Speaker 4: Makes a lot of sense, And I think it's I

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think you're the way you present it is extremely useful,

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and it's it's useful for people to understand also what

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AI is and why the dream of AI becoming more

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than human it's muddled because people don't understand the difference

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between like power, let's say, the capacity to just do

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a bunch of stuff, and the reason why you do

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the things, like the reason why you do the things,

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there is a vertical relationship to the capacity to do it.

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And AI doesn't have access to the reason in itself,

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like it just doesn't.

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Speaker 1: By nature, it's just that by what it is.

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Speaker 4: And also because everything about it is a derivative of

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human and so it will unless I mean, at least

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in the current state, it will always be a derivative

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of man, right.

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Speaker 1: Right, And there's nothing in the current trajectory that will

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change that current state. Although who knows, right the world

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this is not that's above our pay grade, but it's

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critical when we look at something and we say, okay,

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AI has produced something that looks like art. What it's

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done is it's done bricolage, and it's taken art as

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manifested by humans and combined them in a way that

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is so sophisticated as a combination that the artistic element

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that was in the substrate that was manipulating, Oh, okay, interesting,

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that's there. And of course to the human eye, the

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human eye looks at it and applies its pattern recognizing

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capacity to it, and that connects. But the thing, the

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thing that is is the art, the connection to the transcendent,

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which is what art is, is just sort of strictly

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not available.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, and it also.

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Speaker 4: Even I think one of the problems we have, let's

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say that in that domain, is that we've forgotten what

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art was for, Like we've forgotten even humans have struggle

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to understand what the reason we make art is for.

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But even in the AI, we still provide the vertical

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like even with the II production of an image, because

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we are the ones telling the I.

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Speaker 5: What to make. We give it the prompt.

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Speaker 4: Like the AI doesn't just start generating images out of

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its own will because it doesn't care. We give it

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the prompt, and then it manifests the prompt based on

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the vertical direction that we give it. Uh, it's dangerous

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in the sense that then it means now that I mean,

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it means now that we can give power to any

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whim that we have, like we can basically give give

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massive amounts of power to any type of vertical whim.

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Speaker 5: That that can be a.

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Speaker 4: Kind of sinful wim you could say, like a because

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there's some aspect of verticality which is which is dangerous

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if it's not well aligned, because it's it's a there

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are mediocre humans too. Let's say it that way, in

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the sense that there are things that we can want

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that are vertical that are not sufficient, right if we

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and that like, for example, that the idea of just.

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Speaker 5: Of being a slave to a desire is a good example.

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Speaker 4: Like if you just want sex, that's actually a vertical

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it's a vertical thing because it acts down on on

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on the reality, but it's not sufficient. And so if

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you have infinite power that gives you access to that

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little vertical thing, then then you're then you're in trouble.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, okay, so this is that's a really good bridge.

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Speaker 4: So but in relationship to Christianity, I think, I think,

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or to your transformation and to your life. I think

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it's interesting to think that when you talk about this

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change from the horizontal to the vertical, uh, being aware

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of the verse article already, just being aware that this

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is something that we need to be engaged with h

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is a huge difference because most people are just kind

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of blind to it. They just act and they don't

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have a sense that, oh, wait a minute, there are

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things that I can want that should be ordered properly

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towards something which is transcendent. If not, then I have this,

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then I have the problem.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and you're sort of that case. It's you're playing

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out something that has already happened, and then there's this

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sort of flattening that will occur over time. What do

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you mean there's the verticality? Is there anyway? There's no

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way of putting it. But if you're not aware of

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it or not connected to it, then this kind of

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like a nerve. It's like when you take silly putty

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and you kind of form it into a pyramid. You

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did it right, that happened, but then when you let go,

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it can welcome to the last three hundred years. So yeah,

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so what happened? I'm trying to figure out. This feels

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like this is an interesting like a confession. So the

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way that I was dealing with this problem of the

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acceleration of the playing out of the secular dynamics, meta

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crisis cascades, like the way that different systems interact with

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different systems, what happens and the rate of agency just

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continues to feed back on itself and various the technological

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expansion explosion things like that intensity, like bigger and bigger

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perturbations like This was the thing that I was really

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worried about, maybe up until about two or three years ago.

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And what happens is that the term is actually what

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is invariant under transformation, as the set of context becomes broader.

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If you're trying to figure out how do you respond

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to a larger set of context, or to a set

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of context where you can't quite predict what it is

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you're dealing with, you have to look for strategies that

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are invariant under more and more possible contexts. You know,

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some point would be like, let's make it very concrete,

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seek the high ground. It doesn't necessarily matter exactly what

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you're situation is. It's a very good strategic rule of thumb.

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Like sun Zoo when he writes The Art of War,

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what he's basically saying is like, guys, here's a whole

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bunch of stuff that's probably going to work. Like I

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don't know where you are, what you're doing, but if

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you choose the battlefield and the enemy has to fight

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you on your choice at battlefield, good rule of thumb.

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I see, these are rules that are invariant under lots

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of different contexts. Okay, what happens if you continue to

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sort of recurs on that what are more invariant, what

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are the most invariant, What is the most invariant in principle?

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So this is like you're climbing this pyramid of the

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things that are the most fundamental, which is to say,

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ultimately you're beginning to move from the imminent into the transcendent.

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You're looking for things that are now eternal principles that

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are not bound to the playing out of time at all,

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and then you're noticing that the eternal principles have a

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structure that is intrinsic to the eternal principles. This is me,

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by the way, moving up and by the way, always

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trying to figure out how to move out of the

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pure abstraction into okay, what are the actual embodiments of

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these eternal principles. So Dalloism, for example, is very high

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on the stack of actually perceiving the structure of the

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internal principles and then knowing how that embodies itself in life,

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and not that hard to get from these points. At

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the highest level of the stack, you find yourself. I

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found myself going okay, I'm at a certain level. I'm

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actually really able to almost like literally physically notice how

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these principles interact and operate. But I'm continuing to have

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to focus because the magnitude of what we're actually dealing

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with in this moment in time is larger than anything's

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ever happened in history by a lot, by orders of magnitude,

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maybe six, seven, eight, nine, ten orders of magnitude, is incomprehensible.

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So if we want to find a way to navigate

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it properly, we want to have a kind of a

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scope of vision which is symmetric with the magnitude of

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the scope of the problem. We have to just keep

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going up that st stack. And so what happened was

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I got, as you know, as high up the stack

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as I could get under my own power, and it

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didn't work. It was unable to handle the pressures of

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what needed to happen, the kind of the shearing strengths.

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So I was gifted then with the possibility of profound humility,

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and in the field of profound humility, and with some

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help yourself included, I picked up the last you know,

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the last book. Huh man, Now, these Christian guys, really,

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how could that possibly be? You know, the thing is

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at the very top of the stack that seems implausible

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for lots of reasons, by the way, like doing a

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retcon how we got there to that, to that posture

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that relationship for me and for so many other people

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in this culture. But because of the experience I had

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of actually going to church and being in a state

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of very, very deep I don't know exactly how this

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stuff works. I'm not in charge of it. I can't

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understand it. It's beyond my It's strictly beyond my capacity.

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So how do you begin to kind of more respond

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to what's happening and seeing what you know, the people

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in my church, like literally just those people, they're doing

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something which is clearly from a theoretic perspective, that's exactly

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what it should look like. And there's something going on

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that is actually a mysterious that I can't could never

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have produced. On my note, No strategy, no strategy in principle,

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could figure this out what's happening in any effort, by

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the way to do it, by means the strategy definitely

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kills it or produces something even uglier, like a simulacruma

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of wholesomeness. Okay, well, I'm gonna have to go from

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the inside out, like just I don't listen, like absorb,

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read the Bible, talk to Christian side, find out what's

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going on here, and assemble it. And then there's a

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certain point where I was like, oh wow, that's it,

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found it. That's the point, that's the location, which is

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the highest of the high and then everything else orders

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out underneath that and that's you know, that's that's where

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we end up. So in some sense, the answer is

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this is the logical logical Yeah, logical logos, right, the

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logos conclusion of that work with continuity, every step following

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every step, and the piece is coming in and there's

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nothing about it. From my point of view looking back,

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that is of the sort of like I don't know,

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abandonment or nonsense, but rather quite the opposite, like this

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is actually the proper way of responding to the circumstances

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that we find ourselves in.

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Speaker 5: So when you so when you let's say, when you say.

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Speaker 4: You you you you go to the church or you

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you encounter these groups of Christians and you see the

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thing that's at the top of the stack.

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Speaker 3: What is it that you are seeing, Like, what is

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it that you are perceiving.

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Speaker 5: In there?

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Speaker 4: Like in the way that they are or the way

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they're interacting, or the way that they're they're they're acting

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between each other.

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Speaker 1: Well, okay, there's two ways of saying that, and you

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try the second one first. So it's with the way

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I would describe it is being in the presence of God,

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the ability to actually notice that there's something that means something.

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The presence of God is an experience that is something

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that one can notice. There's a difference between that and

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being in the presence of God. And for me it

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actually happened. Ah, that's how interesting in two very distinct ways,

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and they interfaced with each other. One was maybe the

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level of I want to say mental but faculties like

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the interior faculties, reading, thinking, talking, trying to make sense

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of what these concepts meant, and very specifically actually ultimately

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focusing on the Trinity, so really what is this and

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delving in and reading like the kind of the three

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hundred AD and the Desert Fathers and the form of

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the guys who are really putting those ideas together, trying

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to understand what they were saying from the inside out.

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At the same time, going back to church and going

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back into house church and going back into community and

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going back into communion and being in the experience. That's

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the third, being in the actual experience of communion. And

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then something happened where I noticed that there was a

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quality of capital peak presence, and that there was something

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about that quality of capital p presence that was well,

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it shifted, right, it's the theoretical shifted to relational. The

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relational at the community level shifted into communion. That makes sense.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, you must.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So that's that's the best I can do at

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this point.

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Speaker 4: On August twenty seventh, we are going to start to

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ascend the mountain of purgatory. Richard and I was trying

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to continue on the second Dante class, so you can

376
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please go and sign up. You know, the first class

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was just an absolute blast and everybody really enjoyed it.

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So we're hoping that everybody will continue on the track

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with us.

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Speaker 6: And yes, so we're as as Jonathan said, were starting

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August the twenty seventh. Can get the course now at

382
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Symbolic World Courses. There are payment plans and everything there

383
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to make it convenient for you. It's going to be incredible.

384
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Purgatorio is actually my favorite book of the whole comedy

385
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to teach, it's the one that most people when you're

386
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in school you start, you read Inferno when that's all

387
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you read. If you read Dante at all in like

388
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high school or college, you probably only read Inferno. Purgatory

389
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is my favorite one to teach. It's the one that

390
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is kind of, you could say, in a certain sense,

391
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the most relevant to where many of us are in

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our Christian life. That is to say, Purgatorio is about

393
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the purification, right, It's about the process of becoming saints

394
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and so whereas you know, in Fronto is like about

395
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sort of rejecting sid and then Paradise is about what

396
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is what even is holiness?

397
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Speaker 1: And Paradise is the hardest.

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Speaker 5: One to teach.

399
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Speaker 6: We are going to be doing it later this year.

400
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Paradise is the hardest one to sease though, because it's

401
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very hard to explain to somebody exactly what it means

402
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to be holy. But I think all of us can

403
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understand what it's like to try to become holy. So anyway,

404
00:22:02,880 --> 00:22:05,160
join us for Purgatorio. It's kind of be really awesome.

405
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All the juicy stuff is in Inferno, you know, because

406
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like it's really fun to look at these sinners getting

407
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there you know, what's coming to them or whatever. But

408
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Purgatorio is in many ways it's the most practical because

409
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it's it really hits us right where at right now.

410
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So August to twenty seven of the folks, please please

411
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please come and join us for the class.

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Speaker 1: You won't regret it.

413
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Speaker 6: It'll be five amazing weeks of really getting deep into

414
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the question of what does it mean to be purified?

415
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And I think you will enjoy it.

416
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Speaker 5: So all right, we'll see there everybody.

417
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Speaker 4: No, And I think that because I'm what I'm looking for,

418
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and you probably see what I'm looking for, is that,

419
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you know, for people that are listening, people that are watching.

420
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Speaker 5: You know.

421
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Speaker 4: Sometimes one of the issues we've had in the past

422
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two hundred years is that many much of the theological

423
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language has become debased. And so when we when we

424
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say things like God, or we say things like communion,

425
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and I'm not saying those things don't have a reality.

426
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Speaker 5: That of course they do.

427
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Speaker 4: But one of the difficulties is that it's been cheapened

428
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by you know, just our history and materialism and all

429
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these issues like when we say love or we say spirit,

430
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and we use all these words, And so because I

431
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know you've thought you know you because I admire the

432
00:23:20,160 --> 00:23:22,880
way that you see things and how you think of it,

433
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you know, I you know to me it's it's a

434
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good idea to get your description of that experience like

435
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or they get.

436
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Speaker 5: And I think you you explained it very clearly.

437
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Speaker 4: And talking about a shift, and the shift is you know,

438
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in some ways it's the shift of a it's a

439
00:23:38,440 --> 00:23:41,799
shift of participation, or it's a shift to attention, not

440
00:23:42,359 --> 00:23:46,319
just abstract attention, but attention like you said, the attention

441
00:23:46,400 --> 00:23:49,160
that you give to a child, you know, when you're

442
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caring for it is not the same attention that you

443
00:23:51,920 --> 00:23:54,200
give to a problem when you're thinking about it in

444
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an analyt right. Yeah, and that that's a real qualitative

445
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difference that that that you seem to be trying to

446
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account for.

447
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Speaker 1: Yeah, let me see if I can I can hit

448
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on that. So, as a part of the process that

449
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the kind of I began to cultivate over the period

450
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of say fifteen years from when the meta crisis first landed,

451
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was the recognition that there's a proper way of learning.

452
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And what I'm trying to do is I'm trying to

453
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distinguish between the thing that our education system calls learning, which,

454
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oddly enough, Gary Da more or less perfectly described. It's

455
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this horizontal relationship between signifiers that are all happening disconnected

456
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from experience, disconnected from embodied experience. And so the process

457
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of oh wait, embodiment is actually more fundamental than the

458
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ability to move signs back and forth. FYI, if you

459
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happen to be listening to this right now and you're

460
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still stuck in the mode of thinking you understand things

461
00:24:55,880 --> 00:24:58,880
by a virtue of doing kind of the discursive relationship

462
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between signifiers. I would like to urge you to not

463
00:25:02,519 --> 00:25:05,880
think that's true and actually notice that become like unto

464
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a child, meaning learn from your experience. Reconnect a concept

465
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to something that you've actually experienced phenomenologically like in your

466
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actual life, and then you can own it like it

467
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lands in you, and then you can be in the

468
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process of moving back up. So that's the that's the

469
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practice of embodyment. So so pistis so let's let's let's

470
00:25:30,039 --> 00:25:36,480
call it renovate, resuscitate, revalorize. Right. An actual word from theology,

471
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we have this word pieces, which in English is translated

472
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as faith, which in the contemporary world that Darie daw

473
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thinks is actually how reality works largely means maximally degenerate delusion.

474
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And that's what the word faith sort of largely means

475
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that in sort of the postmodern sensibility, and which is

476
00:25:57,079 --> 00:26:00,319
postmodernism is a version of modernity, by the way, course,

477
00:26:01,160 --> 00:26:02,640
but it doesn't mean that at all. Right, What it

478
00:26:02,680 --> 00:26:09,720
actually means is embodied, the embodied form of relationship, and

479
00:26:09,759 --> 00:26:12,160
it's actually a cultivated thing and you can make it

480
00:26:12,359 --> 00:26:14,480
very trust.

481
00:26:14,599 --> 00:26:17,440
Speaker 4: The word trust helps you understand the word faith. Trust

482
00:26:17,559 --> 00:26:20,920
is not is a it's a relational term. It's not

483
00:26:21,160 --> 00:26:25,480
it's not just like the belief in propositions that I

484
00:26:25,519 --> 00:26:28,200
don't have proof for right, that's not what And so

485
00:26:28,279 --> 00:26:30,640
it's like faith is something like it's like more like

486
00:26:30,680 --> 00:26:31,400
a trust fall.

487
00:26:31,519 --> 00:26:33,359
Speaker 5: Like you you you you.

488
00:26:33,279 --> 00:26:36,960
Speaker 4: Basically give yourself to the other in a manner that

489
00:26:37,599 --> 00:26:40,160
you're like, oh, I'm going to make this. It's a risk, right,

490
00:26:40,279 --> 00:26:43,119
there is a risk to it, but it's but it's

491
00:26:43,160 --> 00:26:46,359
a risk that and it's leading you somewhere, right, It's

492
00:26:46,400 --> 00:26:49,279
not just like you trust someone to lead you somewhere.

493
00:26:49,559 --> 00:26:51,920
Speaker 5: That's not the same as like this idea.

494
00:26:51,559 --> 00:26:55,640
Speaker 4: Of you have faith in someone, right, like, not in

495
00:26:55,680 --> 00:26:58,480
the sense like again, not in sense of just believing

496
00:26:58,759 --> 00:27:01,480
propositions that you can't proof, which is which a lot of.

497
00:27:01,440 --> 00:27:03,480
Speaker 1: People still think that that's what I say, is well,

498
00:27:03,599 --> 00:27:04,920
and we can make it like if you do a

499
00:27:04,960 --> 00:27:06,359
trust fall, well it's evening it make it like a

500
00:27:06,359 --> 00:27:11,440
bigger tableau. But the acrobats right, swinging on the trapiez Right,

501
00:27:11,480 --> 00:27:13,440
there's a process where the guy lets go of the

502
00:27:13,519 --> 00:27:15,119
girl and she flips in the air and then she

503
00:27:15,119 --> 00:27:17,559
puts her arms out and then she gets caught. Yeah,

504
00:27:17,599 --> 00:27:19,359
that's a serious trust fall. That's a trust fall of

505
00:27:19,440 --> 00:27:22,839
significant magnitude. Well, here's the thing. If you just kind

506
00:27:22,839 --> 00:27:24,599
of do that with your friends and you say, like

507
00:27:24,680 --> 00:27:28,160
I trust, that's not the same thing, right, that's just stupid,

508
00:27:28,240 --> 00:27:31,519
That's that's foolishness, that's that's bullshit. But if you go

509
00:27:31,640 --> 00:27:37,279
through a process of continuing to engage in practicing more

510
00:27:37,319 --> 00:27:41,359
and more intense versions of this activity, starting very simply right, literally,

511
00:27:41,400 --> 00:27:43,279
an actual trust fall where that you just lean back

512
00:27:43,279 --> 00:27:45,359
and they catch you and you only fall like a foot,

513
00:27:45,599 --> 00:27:48,160
but you begin to notice with them right in the

514
00:27:48,160 --> 00:27:51,240
category of the relationship, and think about the relationship as

515
00:27:51,279 --> 00:27:54,480
having an identity that it's not just you know, how

516
00:27:54,480 --> 00:27:57,640
do you say ephemeral, But it's actually you're cultivating the relationship.

517
00:27:57,640 --> 00:28:02,000
The relationship is beginning to build a an embodiment, a reality,

518
00:28:02,119 --> 00:28:05,039
a capacity that is stronger and stronger and stronger. And

519
00:28:05,079 --> 00:28:07,079
so of course, the three people, the two guys catching

520
00:28:07,119 --> 00:28:10,079
in the girl being thrown, they practice and they practice,

521
00:28:10,079 --> 00:28:12,599
and they practice lower and lower like small big, and

522
00:28:12,640 --> 00:28:16,279
finally get to the point where the strength of their faith, right,

523
00:28:16,400 --> 00:28:22,720
the reality, the capacity of their relationship can hold this possibility,

524
00:28:22,799 --> 00:28:25,839
and then it happens. And so that's the notion, is okay,

525
00:28:26,480 --> 00:28:28,640
that's what we're called to. That's the thing that is

526
00:28:28,680 --> 00:28:32,599
actually underlying our ability to do these sort of higher

527
00:28:32,720 --> 00:28:36,119
order activities is we have to cultivate a relationship. Now,

528
00:28:37,599 --> 00:28:39,720
you and I can cultivate a relationship, and we'll begin

529
00:28:39,799 --> 00:28:42,400
to build something like faith. Now, what's the highest the

530
00:28:42,440 --> 00:28:45,240
highest is what does it mean to build cultivated relationship

531
00:28:45,359 --> 00:28:48,400
with God? Right with the trying gun. And the beauty

532
00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:51,759
of the trying God is the trying God is relational

533
00:28:51,920 --> 00:28:57,200
and endeavoring continuously with maximum commitment and sophistication to cultivate

534
00:28:57,200 --> 00:29:01,079
a relationship with us, so that otherwise be in deep trouble.

535
00:29:01,960 --> 00:29:04,440
Speaker 4: So what you're saying, I mean, I think that it's

536
00:29:04,480 --> 00:29:07,960
so interesting what you're saying, like, and also it makes

537
00:29:07,960 --> 00:29:13,200
me think out how the difficulty of the atheist position

538
00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:17,240
in the sense that that's like just one of the

539
00:29:17,240 --> 00:29:21,759
things that seems to happen is that if we understand

540
00:29:21,799 --> 00:29:27,519
the infinite right as something else than a relational thing, right,

541
00:29:28,079 --> 00:29:30,359
if we understand the source of reality as something else

542
00:29:30,400 --> 00:29:33,519
than relational, you know, one of the one of the

543
00:29:33,559 --> 00:29:37,240
problems that happens, and this is this is the argument

544
00:29:37,279 --> 00:29:39,880
that people would set against you, is to say, the

545
00:29:40,000 --> 00:29:46,160
relational right it's idiosyncratic, and it's subjective and cannot be

546
00:29:46,200 --> 00:29:52,079
trusted because it is it's not based on uh, it's

547
00:29:52,079 --> 00:29:54,960
not based on truth. It's based on feelings. It's based

548
00:29:55,000 --> 00:29:59,359
on experience, which can be which can be deluded. All

549
00:29:59,400 --> 00:30:02,039
of these the these things are the argument against what

550
00:30:02,079 --> 00:30:06,400
you're saying. So, like, if you engage in if you

551
00:30:06,440 --> 00:30:09,279
talk about this motive, this modal being, like this this

552
00:30:09,359 --> 00:30:12,000
motive being where you're entering into communion with others and

553
00:30:12,039 --> 00:30:15,160
you're building a body basically through trust and all of this,

554
00:30:16,240 --> 00:30:20,039
and you say it's phenomenological. A lot of people will say, well,

555
00:30:20,039 --> 00:30:23,079
that means that it's idiosyncratic, that it's not that it

556
00:30:23,200 --> 00:30:26,759
can't be trusted because it's just subjective, right, all of

557
00:30:26,759 --> 00:30:29,240
these terms. Obviously I don't think that, But how would

558
00:30:29,279 --> 00:30:31,920
you answer someone brings.

559
00:30:31,559 --> 00:30:36,119
Speaker 1: That up, Well, hold on neat. So I think that

560
00:30:36,160 --> 00:30:38,920
we're actually entering into a moment like in our in

561
00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:43,279
this niper conversation, where we're almost like doing microsurgery. We

562
00:30:43,319 --> 00:30:46,519
have to really be careful zooming in on things. I

563
00:30:46,599 --> 00:30:49,039
noticed that I had a long conversation with Jim Rudd

564
00:30:49,079 --> 00:30:51,799
about the trinity, and what I realized is that we

565
00:30:51,839 --> 00:30:54,640
actually hadn't cultivated the capacity to really zoom in at

566
00:30:54,680 --> 00:30:56,640
the right level. I noticed it when I was actually

567
00:30:56,680 --> 00:30:58,960
watching your conversation I think last week with Bishop Baron

568
00:30:59,079 --> 00:31:02,559
talking about fractals and how fractal orders can you can

569
00:31:02,599 --> 00:31:04,880
move zoom in and out at levels of scale. And

570
00:31:04,960 --> 00:31:06,640
the point is there's a point at that level of

571
00:31:06,680 --> 00:31:12,319
scale where you actually get to a well, a level

572
00:31:12,359 --> 00:31:16,440
of subtlety that's very difficult to hold in your mind.

573
00:31:17,519 --> 00:31:18,640
And that's where we are. We have to get to

574
00:31:18,680 --> 00:31:21,359
that level of subtlety. So the first chance would be

575
00:31:21,440 --> 00:31:24,599
something like personal make an argument that the trust is

576
00:31:24,640 --> 00:31:28,640
strictly upstream of truth. And one of the things I'll

577
00:31:28,680 --> 00:31:33,519
do so a second proposition, memory is a spiritual act.

578
00:31:35,079 --> 00:31:38,920
So two plus two equals four. You know, does that

579
00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:42,960
sound true? How do you know that what's actually happening

580
00:31:43,039 --> 00:31:45,799
inside your mind and by the way, inside your neurology

581
00:31:45,799 --> 00:31:48,599
if you'd like, that allows you to have the sensation,

582
00:31:49,240 --> 00:31:55,000
the feeling that that particular construct, for example, isn't just nonsense. Yeah,

583
00:31:55,519 --> 00:32:00,799
it seems sensible. Delays a logic dessons. He actually zooms

584
00:32:00,799 --> 00:32:03,000
in on that zone, like, what's the point where you

585
00:32:03,119 --> 00:32:07,079
have the experience, the phenomenal logical experience that you are

586
00:32:07,079 --> 00:32:09,799
in relationship with something that is of the category of sense,

587
00:32:10,240 --> 00:32:13,400
not nonsense, And it moves from the category of sense

588
00:32:13,440 --> 00:32:17,160
to this version the subset of sense called truth. I

589
00:32:17,160 --> 00:32:19,559
hate to break it to you, guys, all of that

590
00:32:19,759 --> 00:32:23,079
is in the category of trust. You are trusting, for example,

591
00:32:23,440 --> 00:32:27,319
your memory. You're trusting a series of basic feeling faculties

592
00:32:27,319 --> 00:32:31,200
that you have that allows you to orient towards this

593
00:32:31,599 --> 00:32:36,240
domain where you can say truth. And that's the point, Like,

594
00:32:36,319 --> 00:32:37,960
right there, we can get in that little piece and

595
00:32:38,000 --> 00:32:40,440
really they literally just do you can do it meditatively?

596
00:32:41,240 --> 00:32:43,480
What does it feel like that makes you able to

597
00:32:43,559 --> 00:32:49,480
distinguish between an assertion tuplostuquals five tublosuqus four. How do

598
00:32:49,519 --> 00:32:51,519
you get that distinction? You can go you can go

599
00:32:51,559 --> 00:32:53,400
all the way down as light as you want to

600
00:32:53,440 --> 00:32:55,640
get at the level of logic, at the level of

601
00:32:55,640 --> 00:32:58,400
the construct, to notice that there's a quality of feeling

602
00:32:59,359 --> 00:33:04,720
that strictly precedes the ability to have a conviction at

603
00:33:04,720 --> 00:33:07,200
the level of truth. That's just the order of how

604
00:33:07,279 --> 00:33:14,720
things operate. Beauty precedes truth, and not so psychophenomenologically. Like,

605
00:33:14,759 --> 00:33:16,319
if you want to look at it as an atheist,

606
00:33:16,359 --> 00:33:18,119
if you can, if you can do the really hard

607
00:33:18,119 --> 00:33:20,279
work as an atheist of actually being in a first

608
00:33:20,319 --> 00:33:23,359
person experience. And I'm not a kidding at all, by

609
00:33:23,359 --> 00:33:25,160
the way, because the primary thing that happens with an

610
00:33:25,160 --> 00:33:27,599
atheist that you can't help but obligately try to be

611
00:33:27,640 --> 00:33:30,759
in the third person experience. Sure, and that's the problem, Like,

612
00:33:30,799 --> 00:33:32,960
that's actually the that's where the that's the where things

613
00:33:33,000 --> 00:33:37,160
fall apart, is that you have this weird thing that

614
00:33:37,319 --> 00:33:40,799
their default mode is third person, which means that first

615
00:33:40,839 --> 00:33:46,440
person things are have you occluded or mysterious, which which

616
00:33:46,480 --> 00:33:48,720
is how you can get to these absurd constructions that

617
00:33:49,240 --> 00:33:53,759
take consciousness or free will doesn't exist. Well, of course,

618
00:33:54,279 --> 00:33:56,240
if you're if you're a will get third person, then

619
00:33:56,240 --> 00:33:59,079
everything you've already you've already sort of you've reached that

620
00:33:59,119 --> 00:34:02,799
you raw the conclude by your premise or pistemological stance

621
00:34:02,799 --> 00:34:06,920
a third person. The things that are intrinsically first person

622
00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:09,760
aren't part of that, and so you're stuck. But the

623
00:34:09,760 --> 00:34:11,519
point is you can come here, You can be in

624
00:34:11,519 --> 00:34:14,000
the first person. You can notice that you have experiences

625
00:34:14,360 --> 00:34:18,079
and sort of contemplate them deeply from that point of view.

626
00:34:18,400 --> 00:34:21,519
And what you will notice is one hundred percent of

627
00:34:21,599 --> 00:34:23,920
that which you are able to identify as true in

628
00:34:23,960 --> 00:34:26,679
any fashion is by means of a first person set

629
00:34:26,679 --> 00:34:30,440
of faculties that we will categorize as feelings. Now, we

630
00:34:30,519 --> 00:34:33,039
may need to go through a process of valorizing feelings

631
00:34:33,320 --> 00:34:36,199
because we don't mean how do I say this right,

632
00:34:36,880 --> 00:34:39,280
certainly don't mean the willy nilliy emotions at the end,

633
00:34:39,599 --> 00:34:40,000
that's right.

634
00:34:41,440 --> 00:34:43,920
Speaker 4: I think that we need to not confuse it with emotion.

635
00:34:44,079 --> 00:34:48,119
Insight is not an emotion the same the same way

636
00:34:48,159 --> 00:34:50,800
that you get from eating like a good piece of cake. Like,

637
00:34:51,280 --> 00:34:52,760
it's not pleasure, it's not pain.

638
00:34:52,920 --> 00:34:53,599
Speaker 5: Insight is.

639
00:34:55,239 --> 00:34:57,840
Speaker 4: It is related to pleasure to some extent, but it's

640
00:34:57,880 --> 00:34:59,559
a different type of experience.

641
00:35:00,039 --> 00:35:02,320
Speaker 1: Whoof Yeah, the weird thing is it's actually part of

642
00:35:02,360 --> 00:35:06,119
the incarnation of the second person. That's what's happening. How

643
00:35:06,199 --> 00:35:08,239
is it right now that I have some capability of

644
00:35:08,280 --> 00:35:14,800
mapping the notions? Are these things that are ideas into

645
00:35:14,840 --> 00:35:19,480
words in English in in order and selecting a vocabulary

646
00:35:19,519 --> 00:35:22,719
that has this capacity to be transmitted to you so

647
00:35:22,760 --> 00:35:25,239
that you can actually be in the same space mentally

648
00:35:25,239 --> 00:35:29,000
as I am. Like, how's that part of reality at all?

649
00:35:29,159 --> 00:35:32,039
Like that? How does that even? We don't have a

650
00:35:32,079 --> 00:35:34,119
way of describing how that's part of reality unless we

651
00:35:34,159 --> 00:35:36,840
decide to remove the ideas in the first place, in

652
00:35:36,840 --> 00:35:39,719
which case we're back to AI chatbots. Right, So going

653
00:35:39,719 --> 00:35:42,400
back to that point, but we're pretty confidently not AI

654
00:35:42,480 --> 00:35:44,840
chat bots, Like I'm the degree which I'm confident in

655
00:35:44,880 --> 00:35:47,280
that is actually one hundred percent more confident than I

656
00:35:47,320 --> 00:35:51,760
am than the opposite. Okay, well, there's something going on there.

657
00:35:51,880 --> 00:35:54,320
That thing going on there, that set of faculties which

658
00:35:54,360 --> 00:35:58,039
are part of what we are intrinsically, that's the basis.

659
00:35:58,159 --> 00:36:01,320
So that's the argument, that's the place, that's where this

660
00:36:01,440 --> 00:36:03,880
conversation stay with the atheist or anybody else. We have

661
00:36:03,960 --> 00:36:05,679
to get down to the level of being able to

662
00:36:05,719 --> 00:36:11,320
have that level of precision in first person, third person trust, truth,

663
00:36:12,159 --> 00:36:15,440
mind expression that these are very precise things. We have

664
00:36:15,519 --> 00:36:18,840
to notice what we're doing. And I'll give you another

665
00:36:18,840 --> 00:36:22,440
example that it's a little bit esoteric, but it worked

666
00:36:22,440 --> 00:36:24,840
for me. I was having my conversation with Jim and

667
00:36:24,920 --> 00:36:27,239
we were talking about the way that the Trinity, by

668
00:36:27,280 --> 00:36:30,519
its very nature is of the transcendent, in this case eternal,

669
00:36:31,960 --> 00:36:40,880
and that time, specifically chronological time is how do I say, derivative,

670
00:36:41,000 --> 00:36:44,400
Like it's a second order. There's a whole bunch of

671
00:36:44,400 --> 00:36:46,119
stuff that happens, Like how okay, well, how does how

672
00:36:46,159 --> 00:36:49,800
can you move from eternal to chronological? Well, you can't

673
00:36:49,840 --> 00:36:53,400
do it chronologically. That can't be how it works. And

674
00:36:53,440 --> 00:36:56,400
then I listened to another conversation he had with Stuart Kaufman,

675
00:36:56,440 --> 00:37:01,119
who's a lovely individual. Stuart's a Santa Fe Institute like

676
00:37:01,239 --> 00:37:05,920
polymathic genius in the sciences, and they were riffing on

677
00:37:06,360 --> 00:37:09,320
a very scientific way of thinking about the origin of

678
00:37:09,360 --> 00:37:14,159
space time. Yeah, but the problem is when I was

679
00:37:14,199 --> 00:37:15,960
listening to it, and I don't know exactly where they

680
00:37:15,960 --> 00:37:18,679
were off you, off paper. Every time they spoke about

681
00:37:18,719 --> 00:37:21,159
the origin of space time, I'll just focus on the

682
00:37:21,199 --> 00:37:29,000
time piece, the important temporality, the important causation conceptization. Right, Well,

683
00:37:29,599 --> 00:37:32,719
where'd that come from? We have not time yet, right,

684
00:37:33,119 --> 00:37:35,000
So what does it mean to be thinking about the

685
00:37:35,039 --> 00:37:38,559
relationship between the eternal and the temporal? You gotta that's

686
00:37:38,639 --> 00:37:40,039
you got to get in between there if you want

687
00:37:40,079 --> 00:37:40,719
to be able to do it.

688
00:37:40,800 --> 00:37:43,119
Speaker 4: Every time somebody talks about the Big Bang, I can't.

689
00:37:43,159 --> 00:37:45,679
I can't but roll my eyes anymore. I just really

690
00:37:45,719 --> 00:37:51,719
struggle because it's so difficult for people to to understand

691
00:37:51,840 --> 00:37:55,679
that the exactly the notion that you if you use

692
00:37:56,320 --> 00:37:58,719
analogies of space time to talk about the origin of

693
00:37:58,760 --> 00:38:01,519
space time, you have to be very in at least

694
00:38:01,760 --> 00:38:05,119
acknowledging that you're using analogy when you're doing it. But

695
00:38:05,239 --> 00:38:08,360
when you don't, then it becomes this weird thing where

696
00:38:08,400 --> 00:38:09,800
it's like a kind of blind spot.

697
00:38:10,480 --> 00:38:13,639
Speaker 1: Yeah, it is, in fact a conceptual blind spot, because

698
00:38:13,679 --> 00:38:18,239
your mind grabs these concepts intuitively and then uses them

699
00:38:18,320 --> 00:38:21,360
to produce themselves, and then you'll end it for a paradox.

700
00:38:21,400 --> 00:38:24,599
And wait, but it's not a necessary I say it right.

701
00:38:24,679 --> 00:38:27,760
There's a way of actually thinking about this properly, which

702
00:38:27,760 --> 00:38:29,960
of course means that at a certain point you stop

703
00:38:30,159 --> 00:38:35,280
thinking and you begin relating. And that's the deeper substrate.

704
00:38:35,480 --> 00:38:39,440
You know, Piecetis is strictly more fundamental than a piece.

705
00:38:39,480 --> 00:38:42,480
To me, this is Plato brought them out, but he

706
00:38:42,559 --> 00:38:45,199
had them reversed, which is a part of a long air.

707
00:38:45,280 --> 00:38:46,719
And a piece to me is all well and good.

708
00:38:47,079 --> 00:38:49,519
Don't get me wrong. It's great to have, but it

709
00:38:49,559 --> 00:38:52,280
sits on top of the substrate of pieces, which is

710
00:38:52,519 --> 00:38:56,920
much much larger, and conventionally that's very easy. Like if

711
00:38:56,920 --> 00:38:58,840
you talk to somebody who is a master of some

712
00:38:58,920 --> 00:39:01,920
skill and you say, can you explain to me how

713
00:39:01,920 --> 00:39:04,039
you do that? Yeah, they can kind of explain it

714
00:39:04,079 --> 00:39:05,360
to you. But if you think about it, like, the

715
00:39:05,360 --> 00:39:07,920
thing that they can explain is about that why, and

716
00:39:08,000 --> 00:39:10,920
the thing they're actually doing is that why? And the

717
00:39:11,000 --> 00:39:13,480
right answer is kind of no, you just have to

718
00:39:13,480 --> 00:39:13,719
do it.

719
00:39:13,760 --> 00:39:14,000
Speaker 2: We can.

720
00:39:14,079 --> 00:39:15,920
Speaker 1: I can do it with you, maybe walk you through

721
00:39:15,920 --> 00:39:17,719
a set of stages that get you from where you

722
00:39:17,760 --> 00:39:19,400
are and where you want to go. We can put

723
00:39:19,440 --> 00:39:23,159
you on a path to mastery, but I can't explain

724
00:39:23,199 --> 00:39:25,800
it to you because it's much bigger than explanation as

725
00:39:25,840 --> 00:39:30,199
a category. That's the idea. The ontology of faith is

726
00:39:30,800 --> 00:39:35,880
a different order than the epistemology as a category, and

727
00:39:36,440 --> 00:39:39,360
that's where we are. Like, that's that's reality. And if

728
00:39:39,360 --> 00:39:41,679
you can't get that, then you're stuck at that point.

729
00:39:41,840 --> 00:39:44,000
Speaker 3: So how okay, So how do you deal with the

730
00:39:44,039 --> 00:39:44,559
problem of.

731
00:39:46,239 --> 00:39:51,320
Speaker 4: Delusion or the problem of because let's say you have groups,

732
00:39:51,760 --> 00:39:54,280
even in a person or in a group, that will

733
00:39:54,639 --> 00:39:56,000
have faith in the wrong thing.

734
00:39:56,320 --> 00:39:57,760
Speaker 5: Right, you think that way.

735
00:39:58,239 --> 00:40:03,280
Speaker 4: And because of that, then the consequences, you know, will

736
00:40:03,400 --> 00:40:06,119
manifest themselves, like if you if you trust the wrong person,

737
00:40:06,239 --> 00:40:08,320
you buy the wrong car, right, I mean, there's a

738
00:40:08,519 --> 00:40:13,199
there's a really boring are really kind of mundane versions

739
00:40:13,239 --> 00:40:15,199
of it where you know, you you trust someone you

740
00:40:15,239 --> 00:40:17,920
shouldn't be trusting or whatever. But you could scale that

741
00:40:18,119 --> 00:40:22,760
right and understand that you could have something like false religions, right,

742
00:40:23,199 --> 00:40:26,079
or people that gather together in the name of something

743
00:40:26,119 --> 00:40:30,559
which is not the right thing, and they're engaging all

744
00:40:30,559 --> 00:40:33,760
the mechanisms of trust and faith but there's something which

745
00:40:33,840 --> 00:40:37,000
is leading it awry and ends with you know, drinking

746
00:40:37,039 --> 00:40:38,800
the kool aid, you know, something like that. I mean,

747
00:40:38,880 --> 00:40:42,440
that's an excessive one, but there are there are less

748
00:40:42,440 --> 00:40:45,119
destructive versions of that, let's say totally.

749
00:40:45,239 --> 00:40:49,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, So golly. The way, the way that I've really

750
00:40:49,440 --> 00:40:51,719
thought about this, and I'm sure this is helpful to anybody,

751
00:40:51,760 --> 00:40:55,440
is that the way that shows up categorically, way it

752
00:40:55,440 --> 00:41:00,360
constantly shows up is when we replace faith with a

753
00:41:00,440 --> 00:41:05,159
simulacrum of faith generated by epistemology or in this case,

754
00:41:05,239 --> 00:41:08,719
let's use the simpler term ideology. So what happens is

755
00:41:09,280 --> 00:41:13,800
we we aren't actually able to be in relationship by

756
00:41:13,920 --> 00:41:19,400
virtue of having cultivated our relational competence, and or we've

757
00:41:19,440 --> 00:41:22,480
just been turned upside entirely by an absolutely degenerate culture.

758
00:41:22,559 --> 00:41:25,559
But and we get this notion that the right way

759
00:41:25,599 --> 00:41:27,639
of doing it is to try to model it in

760
00:41:27,679 --> 00:41:31,679
our minds and produce a mental construct that allows us

761
00:41:31,760 --> 00:41:35,719
to imagine that we are now masters of this event.

762
00:41:36,599 --> 00:41:40,800
And then we'll get stuck there. And so let me

763
00:41:40,840 --> 00:41:42,440
see if I can give you some examples of what

764
00:41:42,480 --> 00:41:45,079
that looks like or how oh yeah, this is nice.

765
00:41:45,079 --> 00:41:48,920
So like a very simple one. This is actually, weirdly enough,

766
00:41:48,960 --> 00:41:51,679
this is actually a really good example. If you're dealing

767
00:41:51,679 --> 00:41:54,320
with kids in the ages of like five and six

768
00:41:55,320 --> 00:41:58,679
and they're beginning to ride a bike, you know what

769
00:41:58,800 --> 00:42:01,840
you'll notice is they'll tell a lot of stories about

770
00:42:01,840 --> 00:42:04,599
how they can ride the bike and how they're going

771
00:42:04,639 --> 00:42:07,800
to be riding the bike, but they cannot yet actually

772
00:42:07,920 --> 00:42:10,719
ride a bike, right, And as an adult you're looking

773
00:42:10,800 --> 00:42:12,800
at them going, yeah, telling the story isn't the same

774
00:42:12,840 --> 00:42:15,880
thing as actually doing the thing. But until you actually

775
00:42:15,880 --> 00:42:18,000
get on the bike and try to ride it, it's

776
00:42:18,039 --> 00:42:20,079
really easy to tell yourself a story because it's a

777
00:42:20,079 --> 00:42:22,199
lot easier and you feel a lot more comfortable. The

778
00:42:22,239 --> 00:42:23,920
story is, yeah, I can ride the bike, and I'm

779
00:42:23,920 --> 00:42:25,480
going to do You get on the bike and you

780
00:42:25,519 --> 00:42:29,159
fall right. So the reality of engaging with reality is

781
00:42:29,199 --> 00:42:32,320
a different kind of thing than the thing that happens

782
00:42:32,360 --> 00:42:34,239
when I can tell the story and living in the narrative.

783
00:42:34,719 --> 00:42:37,320
So they mean I'll do some We're gonna split a

784
00:42:37,320 --> 00:42:39,000
couple of different pieces here, a lot of stuff. So

785
00:42:39,039 --> 00:42:42,960
one is the more you live in a culture where

786
00:42:43,039 --> 00:42:47,679
engagement with reality is prior to the social or the

787
00:42:47,679 --> 00:42:50,679
theoretic layer, the less the problem you raise is a

788
00:42:50,719 --> 00:42:55,400
real problem because the checksum of smacking into reality orients

789
00:42:55,440 --> 00:42:58,280
you towards. Oh yeah, that's right, I can't actually ride

790
00:42:58,280 --> 00:42:59,920
a bike. It turns out I need to learn how

791
00:42:59,920 --> 00:43:01,960
to ride a bike. Get what I'm saying. But the

792
00:43:01,960 --> 00:43:05,199
more you live in a culture where your experience with

793
00:43:05,320 --> 00:43:09,440
reality is mediated by social environments, where telling the story

794
00:43:10,000 --> 00:43:12,320
is good enough or even maybe better. So an example

795
00:43:12,320 --> 00:43:14,840
would be, do you know how to fix a leak

796
00:43:15,039 --> 00:43:17,639
in your plummet? Well, if you live out in the

797
00:43:17,639 --> 00:43:20,119
country and there's nobody to call, the answers yes or

798
00:43:20,159 --> 00:43:22,320
no in a very clear fashioned to fix it? You don't.

799
00:43:22,719 --> 00:43:25,360
You try to fix it. It doesn't work. It doesn't work. Right.

800
00:43:25,880 --> 00:43:28,039
If you live in the suburbs, how do you solve

801
00:43:28,039 --> 00:43:30,559
that problem? When you call a plumber? Do you know

802
00:43:30,599 --> 00:43:32,239
how to as a kid watching it, do you know

803
00:43:32,280 --> 00:43:34,599
how to fix a leak? Well, the answer is yeah,

804
00:43:34,639 --> 00:43:36,559
you call a plumber. Do you know how to fix

805
00:43:36,559 --> 00:43:39,000
a leak? No, it turns out not at all. If

806
00:43:39,039 --> 00:43:41,440
you live in the city, you don't even call the plumber, right,

807
00:43:41,480 --> 00:43:44,760
you call the super Right. You're so distant from concrete

808
00:43:44,800 --> 00:43:47,719
reality that you live like in yourself. Somebody asked you, well,

809
00:43:47,719 --> 00:43:49,599
you've got to fix a leak. You may even in

810
00:43:49,639 --> 00:43:51,840
your mind have a sense the answer is yes, because

811
00:43:51,880 --> 00:43:55,119
the agency is I have a problem. I can solve

812
00:43:55,159 --> 00:43:57,360
that problem. Oh well, how do you solve the problem

813
00:43:57,440 --> 00:44:01,400
by virtue of your competence in relationship with the ground reality. No,

814
00:44:01,519 --> 00:44:03,239
at the end of the day, my ability to manipulate

815
00:44:03,280 --> 00:44:05,559
other people by means of narrative. So that's one fork

816
00:44:05,960 --> 00:44:07,760
very important right when we live in the world that

817
00:44:07,800 --> 00:44:10,840
we live in, where particularly people who live in cities

818
00:44:11,320 --> 00:44:14,679
have very little actual relationship with ground reality and their

819
00:44:14,719 --> 00:44:18,039
stock and trade, and the way of navigating success is

820
00:44:18,079 --> 00:44:20,880
by means of being able to manipulate symbols and manipulate

821
00:44:21,159 --> 00:44:24,039
human social relationships. You're going to get into a problem.

822
00:44:24,079 --> 00:44:26,440
More bullshit is very difficult to prove that it is bullshit,

823
00:44:26,639 --> 00:44:30,840
and so therefore it becomes gold. It becomes a fabric

824
00:44:30,880 --> 00:44:33,119
of actually being able to at least be perceived as

825
00:44:33,159 --> 00:44:38,639
being successful. The other side is, let me see if

826
00:44:38,639 --> 00:44:46,360
I get they're so the distinction between certainty and let's

827
00:44:46,360 --> 00:44:49,840
good with confidence isn't quite right, But actually competence is nice.

828
00:44:50,199 --> 00:44:54,320
So what happens is this imagine a group of people.

829
00:44:55,760 --> 00:44:57,960
Let's actually go way back. So let's imagine an indigenous

830
00:44:57,960 --> 00:45:00,360
group of people who are living in a valley, and

831
00:45:00,400 --> 00:45:02,079
they've lived in a valley for as long as anybody

832
00:45:02,119 --> 00:45:04,719
remembers who's alive. I'm actually using a very specific story

833
00:45:04,719 --> 00:45:08,840
from Tyson Juncoporta. So we're actually in Australia and there's

834
00:45:08,840 --> 00:45:10,800
been a drought, and the drought is actually longer than

835
00:45:10,800 --> 00:45:13,280
almost anybody remembers, except for like two or three very

836
00:45:13,320 --> 00:45:17,599
old people, like the oldest of the old. And there's

837
00:45:17,599 --> 00:45:20,440
a point where the oldest of the old go, guys, look,

838
00:45:21,000 --> 00:45:23,519
I know it's super risky for us to leave this valley.

839
00:45:24,039 --> 00:45:25,920
None of you even have had any experience of that.

840
00:45:27,360 --> 00:45:29,199
But I remember when I was a kid, there was

841
00:45:29,239 --> 00:45:31,559
a drought. It was terrible, and the old people told

842
00:45:31,639 --> 00:45:33,559
us then that we needed to leave the valley and

843
00:45:33,599 --> 00:45:36,800
go to this other place. And I remember it enough

844
00:45:36,840 --> 00:45:38,360
that I can lead us there. It's going to be risky,

845
00:45:38,400 --> 00:45:41,639
but it's the right thing to do, all right. So

846
00:45:41,679 --> 00:45:45,000
that's that's a mature relationship with the fact we can't

847
00:45:45,039 --> 00:45:48,880
actually control reality with precision, and the notion of certainty

848
00:45:49,039 --> 00:45:51,039
is actually not a real thing in the context of

849
00:45:51,119 --> 00:45:54,119
complex reality. But we can have the best that we

850
00:45:54,159 --> 00:45:55,639
can get. So what do the old people do? Well,

851
00:45:55,679 --> 00:45:58,039
they get together and they talk and they compare notes,

852
00:45:58,280 --> 00:46:00,280
and they say, okay, hold on, you remember having that?

853
00:46:00,320 --> 00:46:02,480
Okay with this the stars? You remember, oh yeah, the weather,

854
00:46:02,760 --> 00:46:06,559
And they build a gathering. They gather, and in their

855
00:46:06,639 --> 00:46:11,159
gathering they deposit the highest level of wisdom that they

856
00:46:11,199 --> 00:46:15,280
can deposit in their individual and collective capacity, and then

857
00:46:15,320 --> 00:46:18,840
the group makes decisions on that basis. That's the reality

858
00:46:18,840 --> 00:46:20,880
of how we actually do this, how humans do this

859
00:46:20,960 --> 00:46:23,360
kind of thing. Ever, you're not going to escape that.

860
00:46:23,800 --> 00:46:25,480
You're never going to be able to have something like

861
00:46:25,559 --> 00:46:30,159
mathematical precision on complex reality. Okay, fair enough, But what

862
00:46:30,199 --> 00:46:32,960
happens when everybody's an immature adolescent? What happens when your

863
00:46:33,000 --> 00:46:35,559
culture doesn't produce grown ups? What happens the only thing

864
00:46:35,599 --> 00:46:39,320
your culture produces is very bright adolescence. Well, then you're

865
00:46:39,320 --> 00:46:42,320
in real trouble because nobody actually has depth of maturity,

866
00:46:42,320 --> 00:46:46,320
nobody actually has wisdom, nobody actually has experience in complex reality.

867
00:46:46,559 --> 00:46:49,400
And what they do have is they do have, for example,

868
00:46:49,599 --> 00:46:54,920
the ability to formulate pithy phrases with incisive sarcasm, or

869
00:46:54,960 --> 00:46:59,400
to grab pieces of other people's work and assemble it

870
00:46:59,440 --> 00:47:03,840
in ways that showed that are shiny and impressive. I

871
00:47:03,880 --> 00:47:06,559
actually called this simulated thinking in a essay, an essay

872
00:47:06,559 --> 00:47:10,519
I wrote many years ago. Well, now you're now you're

873
00:47:10,519 --> 00:47:13,920
in real trouble because you're still facing issues of risk.

874
00:47:14,320 --> 00:47:16,280
And what you do is you think that you can

875
00:47:16,320 --> 00:47:21,559
actually produce something using this simulated thinking, using the kinds

876
00:47:21,599 --> 00:47:23,599
of stuff that you'll get you an A plus on

877
00:47:23,639 --> 00:47:25,559
a paper, and the kinds of stuff that will get

878
00:47:25,559 --> 00:47:29,480
you uh, we call it elevated to a VP inside

879
00:47:29,480 --> 00:47:32,480
a fortune five hundred company, which, by the way, has

880
00:47:32,559 --> 00:47:35,440
nothing to do with actually effectively managing and stewarding the

881
00:47:35,480 --> 00:47:37,800
responsibilities of that company in the world, and everything to

882
00:47:37,840 --> 00:47:41,840
do with being good at politics. And therefore you get concerned.

883
00:47:42,119 --> 00:47:44,840
You get concerned that, wait, this thing called wisdom, this

884
00:47:44,920 --> 00:47:48,760
thing called making good choices, is actually not even a thing.

885
00:47:49,280 --> 00:47:50,559
And what I need to do is I need to

886
00:47:50,599 --> 00:47:53,400
have some way of being sure that I'm not being

887
00:47:53,440 --> 00:47:57,800
bamboozled by politicians or by my own bullshit. Does that

888
00:47:57,840 --> 00:47:58,679
make sense what I'm saying?

889
00:47:58,880 --> 00:47:59,880
Speaker 5: Yes?

890
00:48:00,000 --> 00:48:02,639
Speaker 1: So this is this is this is like the issue

891
00:48:02,639 --> 00:48:05,719
that you're raising, which is a serious tissue. Happens to

892
00:48:05,760 --> 00:48:08,719
do with the fact that we're very very far away

893
00:48:08,960 --> 00:48:11,400
from the reality of what it is like to just

894
00:48:11,559 --> 00:48:16,280
have an embodied experience of wisdom and relationship with complex choices.

895
00:48:16,519 --> 00:48:19,880
Speaker 4: Okay, so let's take you know, let's let's let's take

896
00:48:20,679 --> 00:48:22,880
because we're we taught. We started the conversation talking about

897
00:48:22,960 --> 00:48:27,360
about Christianity becoming christian So we have Christianity. We have

898
00:48:27,480 --> 00:48:30,639
this situation, which is that we're dealing with an event

899
00:48:30,719 --> 00:48:34,079
that happened two thousand years ago, right, and we have

900
00:48:34,639 --> 00:48:38,639
a book, and then we also have traditions, and we

901
00:48:38,719 --> 00:48:44,239
have ways of doing things which to some extent could

902
00:48:44,320 --> 00:48:48,960
be described or expressed as this remove that you're talking about,

903
00:48:48,960 --> 00:48:49,719
which is an issue.

904
00:48:49,800 --> 00:48:49,960
Speaker 1: Right.

905
00:48:50,000 --> 00:48:51,800
Speaker 5: It's like we have an account of.

906
00:48:51,760 --> 00:48:54,280
Speaker 4: Someone that lived a very long time ago, and then

907
00:48:54,320 --> 00:48:57,920
we have accounts, you know, people who followed their teaching.

908
00:48:58,119 --> 00:49:00,320
But then you know, and those teaching produced root.

909
00:49:00,239 --> 00:49:00,719
Speaker 5: In their life.

910
00:49:00,719 --> 00:49:02,559
Speaker 3: But that's what we have. We have these accounts and

911
00:49:02,639 --> 00:49:03,440
so here we.

912
00:49:03,440 --> 00:49:06,599
Speaker 4: Are now in the modern world, and we have you

913
00:49:06,639 --> 00:49:13,840
know that say, thousands of churches in North America. How

914
00:49:13,880 --> 00:49:18,000
do we Okay, so, how do we navigate that the problem,

915
00:49:18,519 --> 00:49:22,679
the problem of on the one hand, wanting to connect

916
00:49:22,679 --> 00:49:25,199
to that right, to the resurrections of Christ, to the

917
00:49:25,199 --> 00:49:29,360
story of Christ, to the teaching, and then living living

918
00:49:29,400 --> 00:49:33,239
today right in the way that you're talking about, which

919
00:49:33,280 --> 00:49:38,400
is the desire to cultivate wisdom, to live true communion

920
00:49:38,599 --> 00:49:41,679
to do that, Like how do we find the cause?

921
00:49:41,679 --> 00:49:43,719
You'll find Like I'll give you two extremes, right, just

922
00:49:43,760 --> 00:49:46,639
to give an example, like, so you'll have the Bible

923
00:49:46,679 --> 00:49:49,760
tells you so people right or not? Just Bibles fathers

924
00:49:49,800 --> 00:49:51,960
tell you so. Like in the Orthodox rts, it'll be

925
00:49:52,079 --> 00:49:53,760
similar to Bible tells you to like this is what

926
00:49:53,800 --> 00:49:54,639
the fathers say?

927
00:49:54,760 --> 00:49:57,119
Speaker 5: This is it? Like this is the thing. If the

928
00:49:57,119 --> 00:49:58,440
Bible says it, that's true.

929
00:49:58,599 --> 00:50:01,320
Speaker 4: Just just believe it and it doesn't matter if you

930
00:50:02,519 --> 00:50:04,880
And then if you believe it, basically you're saved. Something

931
00:50:04,920 --> 00:50:07,599
like that, right, if you if you trust them, if

932
00:50:07,639 --> 00:50:09,039
you trust these guys and you kind of believe what

933
00:50:09,079 --> 00:50:10,159
they said, then you're saved.

934
00:50:10,519 --> 00:50:11,039
Speaker 5: Uh. You know.

935
00:50:11,119 --> 00:50:15,800
Speaker 4: The other excess excess of that would be something like

936
00:50:16,159 --> 00:50:18,360
you know, what, what's what the Bible says or what

937
00:50:18,440 --> 00:50:20,760
the fathers say? What the traditions are with the theology.

938
00:50:20,800 --> 00:50:22,760
It doesn't matter. As long as you're nice and you

939
00:50:22,960 --> 00:50:25,239
like people, you kind of love people, and you're a

940
00:50:25,280 --> 00:50:29,559
good person. You know, that's enough, right, And so that

941
00:50:30,320 --> 00:50:34,360
I'm giving you caricature obviously, But how do you see

942
00:50:34,360 --> 00:50:36,280
that we can navigate in that?

943
00:50:37,000 --> 00:50:40,119
Speaker 1: Man? Yeah, well, so let me put take both of

944
00:50:40,119 --> 00:50:41,679
those right, and here's what to say that those are

945
00:50:41,679 --> 00:50:44,679
both adolessent. That's the point. Those are both just straight

946
00:50:44,719 --> 00:50:47,920
up ado lesson. That's that's and the answer. There's a

947
00:50:48,039 --> 00:50:50,880
there's a vertatality here called maturity, and those are they're

948
00:50:50,920 --> 00:50:53,960
just completely different categories. So I've been having this conversation

949
00:50:54,079 --> 00:50:57,519
now recently in the context of our church because you

950
00:50:57,639 --> 00:51:00,320
imagine you're you're talking with the teenage boy, you like,

951
00:51:00,360 --> 00:51:05,559
in that fifteen sixteen zone, and he still is thinking

952
00:51:05,599 --> 00:51:09,039
about the choices he's making on the basis of is

953
00:51:09,079 --> 00:51:11,960
he going to get into trouble? The father says, the

954
00:51:11,960 --> 00:51:15,559
book says, the rules say whatever, you could do the

955
00:51:15,559 --> 00:51:17,519
same thing on the other side. The point is that

956
00:51:17,559 --> 00:51:19,360
ain't the right way to think about it, but the

957
00:51:19,440 --> 00:51:22,519
right way to think about it? Is it right? Well,

958
00:51:22,519 --> 00:51:24,039
how do you know that it's right? Well, the book

959
00:51:24,079 --> 00:51:25,960
said no, no, no, no, no, you know what's right

960
00:51:25,960 --> 00:51:29,599
because you've lived with life. You've got these patterns that

961
00:51:29,639 --> 00:51:31,920
are around you to help you make sense of what's happening.

962
00:51:31,960 --> 00:51:34,760
But the first thing is you touched the hot stove

963
00:51:35,760 --> 00:51:42,000
and it was hot, and then second you said, oh hot, right,

964
00:51:42,119 --> 00:51:43,480
not the other way around. If you do it that

965
00:51:43,519 --> 00:51:46,159
the other way around, you don't Actually you don't know anything.

966
00:51:46,400 --> 00:51:48,880
Somebody says, don't touch it it's hot. Don't touch it's hot.

967
00:51:48,960 --> 00:51:50,719
As a rule, you're running these rules in your head

968
00:51:50,760 --> 00:51:53,199
like a computer, and then you have this problem of

969
00:51:53,239 --> 00:51:56,000
constantly and now analyzing reality. Oh is that what is hot?

970
00:51:56,119 --> 00:51:56,199
Speaker 5: Is?

971
00:51:56,280 --> 00:51:58,039
Speaker 1: What is hot? Actually? Kind of I don't know, but

972
00:51:58,079 --> 00:51:59,320
I know if I touch it it's bad like that

973
00:51:59,400 --> 00:52:00,880
kind of stuff. That's rule following.

974
00:52:00,960 --> 00:52:01,079
Speaker 2: No.

975
00:52:01,079 --> 00:52:03,440
Speaker 1: No, The point is you have to cultivate wisdom. If

976
00:52:03,599 --> 00:52:06,280
you touch the hot thing, you know what hot is

977
00:52:06,280 --> 00:52:08,440
and you know why hot it's bad, and then you

978
00:52:08,440 --> 00:52:10,480
can map that. Now you can use that, So they did.

979
00:52:10,559 --> 00:52:12,719
You have to actually cultivate and bided experience. You have

980
00:52:12,719 --> 00:52:15,199
to cultivate faith or you have to live life and

981
00:52:15,239 --> 00:52:17,039
you have to suffer like you have to actually make

982
00:52:17,079 --> 00:52:21,000
big mistakes and you have to have integrated those big

983
00:52:21,039 --> 00:52:24,480
mistakes into a deeper relationship with what the fricken thing is,

984
00:52:24,679 --> 00:52:26,760
what life is and how it works. And this is

985
00:52:26,800 --> 00:52:28,440
these These are the elders I was talking about, right,

986
00:52:28,480 --> 00:52:31,079
They're not just olders. Let's make that distinction. It's not

987
00:52:31,119 --> 00:52:35,039
just because somebody's old. Elder means you have suffered enormously

988
00:52:35,800 --> 00:52:40,239
direct contact with the complexity of life and have metabolized

989
00:52:40,280 --> 00:52:44,119
that into a capacity to be in more relationship, more

990
00:52:44,159 --> 00:52:48,320
intimate relationship with reality. And that's the difference between these two.

991
00:52:48,719 --> 00:52:50,599
And so you know, when you look at the you know,

992
00:52:50,639 --> 00:52:52,519
the fathers say, well who are they? Well, they were

993
00:52:52,559 --> 00:52:56,039
guys who were up here, and what they said is true.

994
00:52:56,440 --> 00:52:58,599
But until you can connect it to something that you

995
00:52:58,639 --> 00:53:01,719
can actually own in your own experience, you don't have

996
00:53:01,840 --> 00:53:05,719
piece these. You have knowledge, and knowledge isn't going to

997
00:53:05,760 --> 00:53:08,199
do you much good in reality. Piece these will do

998
00:53:08,199 --> 00:53:10,400
you great in reality. And that, I think is the

999
00:53:10,440 --> 00:53:12,360
real pivot that we have to make, is to say, look,

1000
00:53:12,639 --> 00:53:15,920
we cannot be saved from suffering. That's not how it works.

1001
00:53:16,199 --> 00:53:18,480
In fact, as Christians, we kind of recognize that if

1002
00:53:19,079 --> 00:53:21,440
if we're told to follow me, we know we're following

1003
00:53:21,519 --> 00:53:24,280
me leads we cannot be saved from suffering. We're choosing

1004
00:53:24,320 --> 00:53:27,920
to enter into that reality. That's the reality we're entering into. Well,

1005
00:53:27,960 --> 00:53:29,800
one of the aspects of suffering is that it's not

1006
00:53:30,639 --> 00:53:33,320
call it. It's not a bug. It's not that there's

1007
00:53:33,559 --> 00:53:35,480
the problem of suffering is not the problem. The problem

1008
00:53:35,519 --> 00:53:38,079
maybe is meaningless suffering or suffering we don't actually put

1009
00:53:38,079 --> 00:53:41,119
it to proper use. That's a problem. But that's how

1010
00:53:41,119 --> 00:53:42,440
you do it, right. The reality is you have to

1011
00:53:42,480 --> 00:53:45,320
actually just live life. You have to notice your experience

1012
00:53:45,440 --> 00:53:48,880
is rich. Your experiences is across a diversity of things.

1013
00:53:48,920 --> 00:53:51,119
And by the way, now, in relationship with other people,

1014
00:53:51,480 --> 00:53:53,800
have you noticed that other people have different experiences than you,

1015
00:53:54,800 --> 00:53:57,280
and sometimes their experience has a wisdom and an insight

1016
00:53:57,320 --> 00:54:00,559
that is deeply gives you a new perspective then yours does.

1017
00:54:01,280 --> 00:54:02,800
So that's what it means to be in communion is

1018
00:54:02,840 --> 00:54:06,760
to have the ability to have a coherent relationship with

1019
00:54:06,840 --> 00:54:09,159
other people's perspective. And I'll sit this in a very

1020
00:54:09,159 --> 00:54:12,320
nerdy way, which increases your capacity to have a mature

1021
00:54:12,360 --> 00:54:17,599
relationship with reality geometrically. So that's how you do it.

1022
00:54:17,840 --> 00:54:20,760
So when somebody comes and cond tries to sell you ideology,

1023
00:54:20,800 --> 00:54:23,960
I try to sell you bullshit. If you are operating

1024
00:54:23,960 --> 00:54:26,199
from an adolescent point of view, you're in deep trouble.

1025
00:54:26,760 --> 00:54:29,719
You're you're an easy mark. If you're operating in a

1026
00:54:29,760 --> 00:54:32,679
mature point of view, you're immediately going to be noticing

1027
00:54:32,719 --> 00:54:35,519
the difference between bullshit and reality. And if you're in

1028
00:54:35,599 --> 00:54:38,639
communion with a group of people who are operating from

1029
00:54:38,639 --> 00:54:41,360
a mature point of view, your immune system to bullshit

1030
00:54:41,400 --> 00:54:44,239
gets stronger and stronger and stronger, and your ability to

1031
00:54:44,280 --> 00:54:48,559
actually navigate complex reality, always risky, get stronger and stronger

1032
00:54:48,599 --> 00:54:50,599
and stronger, and that's it's as good as you can get.

1033
00:54:50,920 --> 00:54:53,840
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, I think I think what you're saying it

1034
00:54:53,920 --> 00:54:55,679
rings a lot of bells to me in the you know,

1035
00:54:55,719 --> 00:54:57,679
because one of the things that's important, for example, in

1036
00:54:57,679 --> 00:54:59,920
the in the Orthodox tradition, is the idea of the

1037
00:55:00,000 --> 00:55:03,559
living saints, right that we kind of live downstream from

1038
00:55:03,719 --> 00:55:08,360
people that are alive and have reached the highest pinnacle

1039
00:55:08,480 --> 00:55:13,400
of transformation and of uh, you know, and that even

1040
00:55:13,400 --> 00:55:16,480
though some people will have direct access to them, you know,

1041
00:55:16,519 --> 00:55:19,039
it's like you people are always looking to have at least

1042
00:55:19,039 --> 00:55:21,679
secondary access to these to this wisdom. Right, it's like, Okay,

1043
00:55:21,760 --> 00:55:24,400
so I haven't talked to the actual elder, but he's

1044
00:55:24,440 --> 00:55:27,760
alive now and he said this, So if he's saying

1045
00:55:27,800 --> 00:55:30,360
this today, it means that it has there's something about

1046
00:55:30,400 --> 00:55:33,320
that's relevant to our world now, because it's not just

1047
00:55:33,360 --> 00:55:36,320
something that someone recounted from thousands of years ago, Like

1048
00:55:36,400 --> 00:55:39,039
how do I connect to that? So there's that aspect

1049
00:55:39,079 --> 00:55:41,880
which I think is is real. And then there's also

1050
00:55:42,119 --> 00:55:46,679
the reality, for example, of.

1051
00:55:46,480 --> 00:55:51,280
Speaker 5: The reality of confession and union. Right, It's like that

1052
00:55:52,159 --> 00:55:53,840
whatever theoretical idea you.

1053
00:55:53,880 --> 00:55:57,480
Speaker 4: Have about religion, it's like when you go to confession,

1054
00:55:57,800 --> 00:56:00,400
you know that gets smacked out of you because it's like,

1055
00:56:00,519 --> 00:56:03,639
you know, it gets down to the dumbest things and

1056
00:56:03,679 --> 00:56:06,320
to the dumbest thoughts, to the and to the most

1057
00:56:06,360 --> 00:56:10,119
embarrassing moments and to like humiliating.

1058
00:56:09,400 --> 00:56:10,679
Speaker 5: Things, and it's there's nothing.

1059
00:56:11,719 --> 00:56:14,000
Speaker 4: You can have all the lofty thoughts you want about

1060
00:56:14,079 --> 00:56:17,119
the trinity, for example, but you know, but that moment

1061
00:56:17,159 --> 00:56:19,519
when you lie just to impress this other person and

1062
00:56:19,559 --> 00:56:23,079
there's absolutely no reason, like it actually didn't bring anything

1063
00:56:24,039 --> 00:56:26,800
like to your life except for this little moment of

1064
00:56:27,000 --> 00:56:29,360
like just being a little yeah. And then you and

1065
00:56:29,400 --> 00:56:31,239
you're like, what the hell you go to confession? You

1066
00:56:31,280 --> 00:56:33,760
have to say that it's like, at least for me,

1067
00:56:34,239 --> 00:56:37,480
you know that that's the kind of SmackDown that has

1068
00:56:37,639 --> 00:56:41,559
like hopefully brings you slowly towards wisdom and towards a

1069
00:56:41,639 --> 00:56:43,719
real embodied practice of this.

1070
00:56:44,039 --> 00:56:44,199
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1071
00:56:44,239 --> 00:56:45,480
Speaker 1: And by the way, if you wanted to kind of

1072
00:56:45,519 --> 00:56:47,760
do the test, get a bunch of people who are

1073
00:56:47,800 --> 00:56:53,159
like the highest level right now in developmental psychology, educational theory,

1074
00:56:53,159 --> 00:56:55,400
and I mean like real practitioners, people who are really

1075
00:56:55,400 --> 00:56:58,360
really good at that, and said, design what an optimal

1076
00:56:58,440 --> 00:57:01,679
learning environment looks like? It turns out they're going to

1077
00:57:01,719 --> 00:57:04,239
design something looks an awful lot like the best practices

1078
00:57:04,280 --> 00:57:07,400
inside the Chrichan Church. H confession is going to be there.

1079
00:57:07,400 --> 00:57:09,880
But confession is a very specific kind of thing, right,

1080
00:57:09,960 --> 00:57:11,559
It's in a context of communion, right.

1081
00:57:11,559 --> 00:57:13,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, of course it has to be. It's very dangerous.

1082
00:57:14,039 --> 00:57:17,800
Speaker 1: It's very dangerous. Exactly. So now that the we call

1083
00:57:17,800 --> 00:57:19,559
it a safe space, well, yeah, safe space is a

1084
00:57:19,599 --> 00:57:23,320
simulacrum of communion, which you're saying is communion, And there's

1085
00:57:23,360 --> 00:57:27,719
something so much more profound and deeper in complex reality

1086
00:57:27,760 --> 00:57:30,599
and in relationship with the transcendent that's in communion that

1087
00:57:30,719 --> 00:57:34,079
this simulacrium that you produce called safe space is demonic.

1088
00:57:34,119 --> 00:57:38,679
It's actually perfectly terrible and it creates exactly the wrong results, unless,

1089
00:57:38,719 --> 00:57:39,599
by the way, that's your intent.

1090
00:57:41,199 --> 00:57:43,880
Speaker 4: So yeah, because confession has a safety to it in

1091
00:57:43,880 --> 00:57:46,679
the sense that you know that the priest is bound

1092
00:57:46,880 --> 00:57:49,840
to secrecy and all of that. But it's not a

1093
00:57:49,880 --> 00:57:53,679
safe space because he's got he's you can gotta smack

1094
00:57:53,760 --> 00:57:56,079
you around a little bit and say, you know, and

1095
00:57:56,119 --> 00:57:58,199
make and make you understand that it's not it's a

1096
00:57:58,239 --> 00:58:01,360
safe space, but it's a space that's geared towards transformation,

1097
00:58:01,679 --> 00:58:03,480
not to coddle you and to make you feel like,

1098
00:58:03,960 --> 00:58:06,199
you know, although I had confessors once a while that

1099
00:58:06,440 --> 00:58:08,280
were too nice where I was like, oh, it's okay,

1100
00:58:08,360 --> 00:58:09,519
you know, God loves.

1101
00:58:09,360 --> 00:58:10,679
Speaker 5: You, and I'm like, I'm not sure I want to

1102
00:58:10,679 --> 00:58:10,960
hear this.

1103
00:58:11,599 --> 00:58:13,519
Speaker 4: You know, I need I need to be tightened a

1104
00:58:13,559 --> 00:58:17,159
little bit so that I re redirect my you know,

1105
00:58:17,280 --> 00:58:17,800
my aim.

1106
00:58:17,920 --> 00:58:21,800
Speaker 1: Let's say safe, he's a lion. He's not safe. Good

1107
00:58:22,320 --> 00:58:22,639
but not.

1108
00:58:22,679 --> 00:58:24,840
Speaker 5: Safe exactly exactly.

1109
00:58:25,199 --> 00:58:27,159
Speaker 1: And that's like, so back to good parenting and same

1110
00:58:27,159 --> 00:58:29,800
thing in the same category what's what's a good parenting context,

1111
00:58:30,039 --> 00:58:32,639
which is of course is learning context. That's the parenting right,

1112
00:58:32,679 --> 00:58:35,360
is to cultivate these individuals you happen to have a

1113
00:58:35,440 --> 00:58:41,119
very parsticular relationship with as as a steward of mine.

1114
00:58:41,480 --> 00:58:43,280
Speaker 4: So here we are, like we're here, you know, like

1115
00:58:43,760 --> 00:58:46,840
I'm a Christian YouTuber for all intents and purposes. Hopefully

1116
00:58:46,840 --> 00:58:49,960
I'm more than that. But let's you know, that's a reality,

1117
00:58:50,000 --> 00:58:50,719
which is that you.

1118
00:58:50,679 --> 00:58:52,559
Speaker 1: Know, we make it increasingly by the way in the

1119
00:58:52,800 --> 00:58:58,159
pocket square phase of being a Christian YouTuber, the pocket

1120
00:58:58,159 --> 00:59:01,199
square phase, right, the high production value, right yeah.

1121
00:59:01,079 --> 00:59:04,400
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, and so and so that's a reality that's there,

1122
00:59:04,519 --> 00:59:05,360
right uh.

1123
00:59:05,440 --> 00:59:07,440
Speaker 5: And the same with this, like this conversation.

1124
00:59:07,639 --> 00:59:13,559
Speaker 4: The same with you know, for example, the education moving online.

1125
00:59:14,639 --> 00:59:17,760
How do you how do you see us finding some

1126
00:59:18,639 --> 00:59:20,800
a way to let's say, use the technology, because we

1127
00:59:20,920 --> 00:59:26,239
if we, I can't deny that this technology.

1128
00:59:25,840 --> 00:59:29,440
Speaker 5: Has been useful to some extent, Like definitely.

1129
00:59:29,400 --> 00:59:32,800
Speaker 4: Is it is in some ways a little trail that

1130
00:59:32,840 --> 00:59:37,119
helps people find their way back, but it's clearly not sufficient.

1131
00:59:37,159 --> 00:59:39,840
And it's also very dangerous because you know, you can

1132
00:59:39,960 --> 00:59:42,920
have people who just sit in their basement watching YouTube

1133
00:59:43,000 --> 00:59:46,159
videos feel like they're that they're that they're up here,

1134
00:59:46,320 --> 00:59:49,840
when in fact, you know, not the it's all up

1135
00:59:49,920 --> 00:59:50,480
in their mind.

1136
00:59:51,440 --> 00:59:53,000
Speaker 5: And so how do we I mean.

1137
00:59:52,960 --> 00:59:54,400
Speaker 4: I don't know if you have a solution is but like,

1138
00:59:54,880 --> 00:59:56,519
have you thought a little bit about how can we

1139
00:59:56,599 --> 00:59:58,880
find ways to bridge those worlds?

1140
00:59:59,119 --> 01:00:00,880
Speaker 1: Yeah? I mean I have. I have thought about it

1141
01:00:00,920 --> 01:00:04,800
for sure, tremendously, even to the point, let's put it

1142
01:00:04,800 --> 01:00:09,760
this way, in somewhere around I guess twenty eighteen, the

1143
01:00:10,159 --> 01:00:14,480
theory was now demanding that the moment of theory was

1144
01:00:14,519 --> 01:00:17,719
over and the only available next move was the moment

1145
01:00:17,760 --> 01:00:21,440
of embodyment. So practice so, and this is kind of

1146
01:00:21,440 --> 01:00:23,679
what you're saying. Hey, if if all you're doing is

1147
01:00:23,719 --> 01:00:27,960
consuming youtubees, what I'd like to say is that the

1148
01:00:28,000 --> 01:00:30,880
point of every YouTube video consumed that is vaguely pointing

1149
01:00:30,920 --> 01:00:33,679
you towards the truth, is telling you to go outside

1150
01:00:33,719 --> 01:00:37,119
and do something besides consuming YouTube videos. There's a terminal

1151
01:00:37,119 --> 01:00:39,480
point where that's the only signal that's actually in all

1152
01:00:39,559 --> 01:00:42,679
of them. And remember there's a discernment vector, so many

1153
01:00:42,719 --> 01:00:44,880
of them are actually saying no, no, keep watching YouTube videos.

1154
01:00:45,239 --> 01:00:49,000
That's diabolical. So don't do that. And everything that's not diabolical.

1155
01:00:49,039 --> 01:00:51,000
What it's telling you to go out and actually engage

1156
01:00:51,079 --> 01:00:56,159
in complex life. So in some sense the question is

1157
01:00:56,199 --> 01:00:59,880
a little bit simple, and it's just what's it like

1158
01:01:00,039 --> 01:01:02,000
live a wholesome life? What are the ingredients of living

1159
01:01:02,000 --> 01:01:05,679
a wholesome life? Put like, what's your kind of time management?

1160
01:01:05,760 --> 01:01:09,800
Like what's your attention allocation function? And the answer would

1161
01:01:09,800 --> 01:01:14,000
be sort of like, okay, first prayer and first are

1162
01:01:14,000 --> 01:01:18,320
you actually allocating your time to your relationship with God?

1163
01:01:18,920 --> 01:01:20,840
And how much like a decent chunk. It's got to

1164
01:01:20,880 --> 01:01:22,800
be a pretty solid chunk and in the right order

1165
01:01:23,000 --> 01:01:27,239
when you wake up in the morning. What comes first? Bone, Twitter,

1166
01:01:28,280 --> 01:01:31,880
even a even a really nice suite Jonathan Pegio YouTube video.

1167
01:01:32,519 --> 01:01:36,039
Or or is it are you actually, you know, having

1168
01:01:36,079 --> 01:01:38,360
a relationship with God? Are you reading scripture? Are you praying? Right?

1169
01:01:38,880 --> 01:01:41,840
The order matters? So time matters and order matters. And

1170
01:01:41,840 --> 01:01:43,599
then okay, how much time are spending in your body

1171
01:01:43,599 --> 01:01:45,760
and life? Are you going outside? Are you engaging with

1172
01:01:45,840 --> 01:01:48,960
other human beings in your community in physical relationship and

1173
01:01:48,960 --> 01:01:50,360
events that matter with stake?

1174
01:01:50,599 --> 01:01:50,679
Speaker 4: Right?

1175
01:01:50,800 --> 01:01:55,159
Speaker 1: Is this in some sense it's crazy simple. Do the

1176
01:01:55,199 --> 01:01:58,760
thing that ordinary, like an ordinary wise person would just say,

1177
01:01:59,639 --> 01:02:02,239
have a wife, raise kids, spend time with your wife

1178
01:02:02,239 --> 01:02:04,360
and kids, care about them, care about how their lives go.

1179
01:02:04,800 --> 01:02:07,360
You know, which is the thing is. It's crazy simple

1180
01:02:07,440 --> 01:02:12,719
and just like dieting and our contemporary culture is super hard. Yeah,

1181
01:02:13,239 --> 01:02:15,960
my wife and I have a continuous process of frustration

1182
01:02:16,039 --> 01:02:19,159
and surprise at the fact that we know prioritizing our

1183
01:02:19,199 --> 01:02:21,679
relationship is important, and yet when we do like a

1184
01:02:21,719 --> 01:02:23,320
monthly out out of how much time did we actually

1185
01:02:23,360 --> 01:02:27,000
spend together and we're not actually living according to our values.

1186
01:02:27,079 --> 01:02:30,280
We've we've clarified our values, we've identified what we think

1187
01:02:30,519 --> 01:02:33,039
the hierarchy of values actually is, and then we don't

1188
01:02:33,039 --> 01:02:35,519
live that way. And then of course we read Paul

1189
01:02:35,519 --> 01:02:37,360
Paul's like, yeah, yeah, I get it. That's how it works.

1190
01:02:39,000 --> 01:02:42,639
So that's it. It starts with God, and then the

1191
01:02:42,760 --> 01:02:45,920
very second thing after that are your actual lived relationships

1192
01:02:45,960 --> 01:02:49,000
in a concentric circle with your you know, your your

1193
01:02:49,039 --> 01:02:51,880
wife in this in this case, and your kids, and

1194
01:02:51,920 --> 01:02:54,679
then you know the closer friends usually in your church

1195
01:02:54,679 --> 01:02:56,639
as very helpful, like you get a synergy value out

1196
01:02:56,639 --> 01:02:58,440
of that, Like if your time with your wife and

1197
01:02:58,480 --> 01:03:01,519
you and your wife are also in relationship with God,

1198
01:03:01,599 --> 01:03:04,519
than that. You now you're not having a double you know,

1199
01:03:05,280 --> 01:03:08,079
it's simple viies right, It makes things smoother. Same thing

1200
01:03:08,079 --> 01:03:09,960
with your kids, right, same thing with your friends and

1201
01:03:10,000 --> 01:03:14,840
your community. And it's the kind of monastery sensibility. And

1202
01:03:14,920 --> 01:03:17,639
you engage with complex reality man like fixed things with

1203
01:03:17,679 --> 01:03:20,119
your hands, like deal with plumbing and deal with your

1204
01:03:20,199 --> 01:03:21,880
change your cars oil. And I don't mean this because

1205
01:03:21,880 --> 01:03:24,440
you're saving money. I mean that's a practice, like it's there,

1206
01:03:24,480 --> 01:03:27,239
it's it's how you cultivate pieces. And notice that there

1207
01:03:27,280 --> 01:03:32,239
is something deeply deeply theological about the fine art of carpentry.

1208
01:03:32,480 --> 01:03:35,480
There's deeply deeply theological about actually learning how to fish

1209
01:03:35,519 --> 01:03:38,239
and noticing that you can't bullshit yourself into fishing. And

1210
01:03:38,280 --> 01:03:40,880
the more you learn the skillfulness of the distinction of

1211
01:03:40,960 --> 01:03:43,920
what requires competence and what can be bullshitted, the more

1212
01:03:43,920 --> 01:03:48,000
discernment you have about that distinction in general, and more

1213
01:03:48,039 --> 01:03:50,559
people you notice than other people who have that distinction,

1214
01:03:50,920 --> 01:03:53,320
and you begin to form relationships with people who have

1215
01:03:53,400 --> 01:03:56,000
that distinction, you notice that something stronger happened. So just

1216
01:03:56,280 --> 01:03:58,159
we have to live our way into that. And the

1217
01:03:58,199 --> 01:04:02,079
core discipline is just that ality. Didn't know what is

1218
01:04:02,119 --> 01:04:05,599
the right order of values and how terribly am I

1219
01:04:05,639 --> 01:04:07,360
not living in accord with my own values?

1220
01:04:07,480 --> 01:04:10,039
Speaker 4: M h yeah, it makes sense. It makes makes a

1221
01:04:10,039 --> 01:04:12,400
lot of sense, you know. And I'm leaving with a

1222
01:04:12,480 --> 01:04:14,599
lesson too. It's like we know it, but we don't,

1223
01:04:14,639 --> 01:04:17,440
like you said, we don't always do it in the

1224
01:04:17,559 --> 01:04:21,639
right way, because I mean, and in some ways it

1225
01:04:21,840 --> 01:04:24,840
is there's an illusion that we have, like the fires

1226
01:04:24,920 --> 01:04:27,000
go start burning, and then you start to pay attention

1227
01:04:27,079 --> 01:04:29,920
to all these fires and you don't realize, you know,

1228
01:04:30,000 --> 01:04:33,800
that the reason why you should care about the emergencies

1229
01:04:33,840 --> 01:04:37,360
that are kind of popping off, You know, they're more

1230
01:04:37,400 --> 01:04:40,400
important than those emergencies, even though the emergencies are screaming.

1231
01:04:41,840 --> 01:04:45,599
You know that there's a kind of emptiness to I mean,

1232
01:04:45,639 --> 01:04:47,880
I say that, but I mean the past few months

1233
01:04:47,880 --> 01:04:50,480
of my life have been like just this NonStop fires, right, like,

1234
01:04:50,559 --> 01:04:52,440
just like all these things that are happening that you

1235
01:04:52,480 --> 01:04:53,880
have to take care of, and then you start to

1236
01:04:53,960 --> 01:04:58,039
forget the like you said, the core, right, the core

1237
01:04:58,119 --> 01:05:00,039
of saying, well, it's like, you know, actually, what what

1238
01:05:00,159 --> 01:05:02,760
is it that I actually care about? And I raiship

1239
01:05:02,760 --> 01:05:05,079
with my family, like you said, the relationship with God

1240
01:05:05,639 --> 01:05:08,280
and so why am I just paying attention to all

1241
01:05:08,280 --> 01:05:08,960
these fires?

1242
01:05:09,000 --> 01:05:11,519
Speaker 5: But it's a tough one. It's hard to do well.

1243
01:05:11,920 --> 01:05:14,320
Speaker 1: So I'm seeing like three different things that come out

1244
01:05:14,360 --> 01:05:16,239
of that that it's going to be useful to tease out.

1245
01:05:17,559 --> 01:05:19,320
Two of them are very similar, and I see this

1246
01:05:19,400 --> 01:05:22,440
a lot, particularly maybe in the world that includes both

1247
01:05:22,440 --> 01:05:29,280
of us. So one is I call it the philanthropists deception.

1248
01:05:30,239 --> 01:05:33,119
So the philanthropist deception is the devil on your shoulder

1249
01:05:33,760 --> 01:05:37,039
who says it's okay to not live according to your

1250
01:05:37,119 --> 01:05:40,000
values all the time because there's a way to buy

1251
01:05:40,079 --> 01:05:44,440
your way back into them. Basically, right, don't actually have

1252
01:05:44,559 --> 01:05:46,639
all of your choices be in alignment with your values.

1253
01:05:46,880 --> 01:05:49,920
It's okay to have some of your choices be extractive

1254
01:05:50,000 --> 01:05:52,639
and maybe a lie to people or deceive, manipulate so

1255
01:05:52,679 --> 01:05:55,159
you can make more money. And then you can take

1256
01:05:55,159 --> 01:05:57,159
that money, you can put that into this really really

1257
01:05:57,159 --> 01:05:59,840
good thing, like super good, and if you add them together,

1258
01:06:00,360 --> 01:06:02,440
good just went up. You actually have a net net

1259
01:06:02,599 --> 01:06:06,719
increasing good. Yeah, and this is extremely subtle. I was

1260
01:06:06,760 --> 01:06:08,679
actually talking to my pastor about this, and he had

1261
01:06:08,679 --> 01:06:11,239
this experience where he had put some money into an

1262
01:06:11,280 --> 01:06:14,639
investment and the investment was doing really well. And what happens, right,

1263
01:06:14,679 --> 01:06:18,800
the devil on his shoulder who's wearing like an Angels costume, goes, man,

1264
01:06:18,840 --> 01:06:21,760
you're gonna be able to really support missions. Now you're

1265
01:06:21,760 --> 01:06:23,719
gonna you're gonna you're gonna be like so many good

1266
01:06:23,760 --> 01:06:26,119
things you'll be able to do with this and that

1267
01:06:26,199 --> 01:06:27,760
that's how it gets you. It has to sneak in

1268
01:06:28,000 --> 01:06:30,159
and a little flash of like a Lamborghini here, just

1269
01:06:30,159 --> 01:06:34,920
but just a little bit. Oh no, no, not Lamborghin's. You know,

1270
01:06:35,000 --> 01:06:39,280
I'm gonna I'm gonna pay for starving orphans. But that's

1271
01:06:39,280 --> 01:06:41,119
one right, So that's one trick. Same trick happens over

1272
01:06:41,159 --> 01:06:44,239
here at the level of fires. If you've identified how

1273
01:06:44,320 --> 01:06:46,840
you say it, doing good work in the context of

1274
01:06:47,320 --> 01:06:50,199
you know, I have responsibilities, like these are important things,

1275
01:06:50,440 --> 01:06:52,519
so I gotta take care of and maybe I'm unique

1276
01:06:52,599 --> 01:06:54,159
in the world being able to actually take care of

1277
01:06:54,199 --> 01:06:56,320
these problems. And it could be a small problem, like

1278
01:06:56,320 --> 01:06:59,679
it could be really practically, there's an oil fire in

1279
01:06:59,679 --> 01:07:01,159
my kid. Well, I'm the one who has to put

1280
01:07:01,159 --> 01:07:03,159
it out. That's a real fire. But it could also

1281
01:07:03,199 --> 01:07:06,000
be like, oh my gosh, like civilization's falling apart. Fill

1282
01:07:06,039 --> 01:07:08,239
in the blank. You know, somebody says something really wrong

1283
01:07:08,280 --> 01:07:11,840
on the internet. I gotta deal with that immediately. And

1284
01:07:11,920 --> 01:07:14,519
of course that's the same thing, right. The point, yeah,

1285
01:07:14,679 --> 01:07:17,840
the problem is who's making that choice. How do you

1286
01:07:17,880 --> 01:07:21,639
know whether or not that's actually the your cross or

1287
01:07:21,719 --> 01:07:23,719
if it's somebody else has crossed it. You're racism described

1288
01:07:23,760 --> 01:07:29,119
yourself too, right, And uh, that's that's that's that's subtle.

1289
01:07:29,320 --> 01:07:31,719
That's that's in the level of like where the I

1290
01:07:31,719 --> 01:07:35,760
guess that'd be Luciferian. The Luciferian sense of temptation. Right,

1291
01:07:35,800 --> 01:07:39,320
temptation is the exact inverse of communion and temptation. If

1292
01:07:39,320 --> 01:07:41,079
it if it gets you just right, it's tricky. The

1293
01:07:41,079 --> 01:07:43,400
whole point is it is tricky, and you really really

1294
01:07:43,400 --> 01:07:45,760
think you're doing the right thing. That's the part, Like

1295
01:07:45,880 --> 01:07:49,280
the stupid temptation if I'm gonna eat you know whatever, Uh,

1296
01:07:49,360 --> 01:07:51,360
you know, fifty donuts and gets sick, fair enough. But

1297
01:07:51,400 --> 01:07:53,679
the point is there's the really subtle those.

1298
01:07:53,519 --> 01:07:54,400
Speaker 5: Are the worst ones.

1299
01:07:54,440 --> 01:07:57,599
Speaker 4: Like you said, the lucifer In temptations of your point

1300
01:07:57,679 --> 01:07:59,880
is great, you know to think like, oh, I have

1301
01:08:00,079 --> 01:08:01,800
to take care of this because.

1302
01:08:02,000 --> 01:08:03,760
Speaker 5: You know, like that's so special.

1303
01:08:03,960 --> 01:08:06,320
Speaker 4: You know and that you know and this this, like

1304
01:08:06,360 --> 01:08:08,199
you said, the guy getting aimed to the internet, that's

1305
01:08:08,239 --> 01:08:10,840
a that's such a perfect example because like you know,

1306
01:08:11,119 --> 01:08:15,119
I mean, I definitely found myself you know, that they're

1307
01:08:15,119 --> 01:08:17,720
paying way too much attention, you know, to that type

1308
01:08:17,720 --> 01:08:23,000
of stuff and realize hopefully, yeah, some hopefully at some point.

1309
01:08:22,800 --> 01:08:25,439
Speaker 5: Realizing that, you know, what does it matter?

1310
01:08:25,520 --> 01:08:27,319
Speaker 4: Like it doesn't really and all of the a lot

1311
01:08:27,359 --> 01:08:30,439
of especially like the news cycle stuff, a lot of

1312
01:08:30,439 --> 01:08:32,800
it is just flashing the pans, stuff that we won't

1313
01:08:32,840 --> 01:08:36,079
remember three months from now. And we've spent so much

1314
01:08:36,159 --> 01:08:39,800
attention focusing on all these scandals and all of these things,

1315
01:08:39,800 --> 01:08:43,079
and this especially during the American election year. It's crazy.

1316
01:08:43,159 --> 01:08:46,000
Like going on Twitter is like it'll drag you into

1317
01:08:46,079 --> 01:08:47,119
hell really fast.

1318
01:08:47,399 --> 01:08:48,359
Speaker 1: Uh and it.

1319
01:08:48,479 --> 01:08:50,640
Speaker 4: Just and then it just captures you and you and

1320
01:08:50,680 --> 01:08:53,960
you realize that you've spent an hour scrolling down Twitter,

1321
01:08:54,000 --> 01:08:56,119
and it's like that hour could have been spent in

1322
01:08:56,359 --> 01:09:03,439
far more useful things, you know, including nothing, concluding nothing exactly.

1323
01:09:04,000 --> 01:09:06,600
Speaker 1: It's funny. So as a practice, I've actually tried to

1324
01:09:06,640 --> 01:09:12,319
cultivate noticing aesthetically the difference between the for you tab

1325
01:09:12,399 --> 01:09:15,640
and the following tab mm hmm, right, because you can

1326
01:09:15,640 --> 01:09:17,920
tell if you pay attention to the four you tab

1327
01:09:18,159 --> 01:09:23,680
is palpably luciferian. Oh yeah, I'm palpably and you're like,

1328
01:09:23,960 --> 01:09:26,920
wait a minute, man, the taste. Oh I'm in the

1329
01:09:26,920 --> 01:09:27,479
for you tab.

1330
01:09:29,159 --> 01:09:30,560
Speaker 5: So they also switch you over.

1331
01:09:30,640 --> 01:09:33,039
Speaker 4: I think like without you, it's not let's you switch

1332
01:09:33,039 --> 01:09:34,199
you over to the fore you til you don't even

1333
01:09:34,239 --> 01:09:37,000
know that why are we seeing all this stuff?

1334
01:09:37,039 --> 01:09:39,640
Speaker 1: Like it gets okay, so this thing goes to the

1335
01:09:39,640 --> 01:09:41,520
piece that's the top of that pyramid. With regard to

1336
01:09:41,520 --> 01:09:44,239
the fires, because then there's there's some fires that you're

1337
01:09:44,239 --> 01:09:46,720
actually supposed to deal with. Yeah, right, The point is

1338
01:09:46,720 --> 01:09:49,159
you're actually here for a purpose. And okay, so how

1339
01:09:49,159 --> 01:09:51,840
do you discern that? How do you notice, for example,

1340
01:09:51,880 --> 01:09:54,319
that oftentimes the struggling with the fire is the purpose.

1341
01:09:55,560 --> 01:09:57,399
It's not putting the fire out that was the thing.

1342
01:09:57,840 --> 01:10:02,039
It's actually your engagement with the choice is this mine

1343
01:10:02,119 --> 01:10:05,720
or not? And the cultivation of competence in relation, which

1344
01:10:05,760 --> 01:10:09,760
could be very complex competence the grief of recognizing that

1345
01:10:09,800 --> 01:10:12,239
you got drawn into something and it separated you from

1346
01:10:12,239 --> 01:10:14,760
your kids and now they've got like a ripple in

1347
01:10:14,800 --> 01:10:16,880
their experience that is going to be with them forever

1348
01:10:17,079 --> 01:10:18,880
or you know, the dealing with that and healing that's

1349
01:10:18,880 --> 01:10:21,439
going to be real challenge. Okay, And this is a

1350
01:10:21,439 --> 01:10:24,479
complex thing, man, Reality is so far beyond our capacity.

1351
01:10:24,720 --> 01:10:27,640
It's really critical to grasp that, like, you cannot master

1352
01:10:27,720 --> 01:10:31,680
this thing at all, not even a little bit. And okay,

1353
01:10:31,840 --> 01:10:33,840
and this, yeah, we come back to the kind of

1354
01:10:33,840 --> 01:10:37,199
the Christian discipline at the center. It is actually at

1355
01:10:37,199 --> 01:10:40,319
the center is to recognize the degree to which you

1356
01:10:40,439 --> 01:10:44,039
have no idea what's going on, You have no ability

1357
01:10:44,079 --> 01:10:48,279
to actually plan properly how to engage with this thing. Well, right,

1358
01:10:48,840 --> 01:10:51,560
you can do like you've been given a very specific

1359
01:10:51,640 --> 01:10:53,920
amount of agency and it's not much, and you can

1360
01:10:53,960 --> 01:10:55,760
do a little bit. Yeah you can. You can probably

1361
01:10:55,800 --> 01:10:58,279
make eggs. You can you can maybe drop your kid

1362
01:10:58,319 --> 01:11:00,439
to school without getting in a wreck. Right, that's like okay,

1363
01:11:01,039 --> 01:11:04,159
beyond like literally that level. I'm being facetious, but beyond

1364
01:11:04,159 --> 01:11:06,399
that level. If you think you've got to handle on

1365
01:11:06,439 --> 01:11:09,359
things beyond that, you're actually getting yourself further and further

1366
01:11:09,399 --> 01:11:10,520
away from reality.

1367
01:11:10,760 --> 01:11:11,079
Speaker 5: M hm.

1368
01:11:11,600 --> 01:11:16,800
Speaker 1: Oh. But but glory is it turns out that God's

1369
01:11:16,880 --> 01:11:20,279
right there and that there's actually an entire thing that's

1370
01:11:20,319 --> 01:11:23,199
helping you. And if you just learn how to build faith,

1371
01:11:23,279 --> 01:11:25,560
like to learn how to let go of that first

1372
01:11:25,600 --> 01:11:28,039
person and flip through the air, there is another person

1373
01:11:28,079 --> 01:11:29,600
on this side that's going to grab your hands. Right,

1374
01:11:29,600 --> 01:11:31,960
You've got to build that competence of being in relationship

1375
01:11:32,239 --> 01:11:36,640
with the actual infinite which is specifically here to help

1376
01:11:36,880 --> 01:11:39,520
not help you, to guide you and navigate you for

1377
01:11:40,000 --> 01:11:44,680
big capital peak purposes through complex reality. Right. That's the

1378
01:11:45,039 --> 01:11:46,880
you know, that's the kind of the was that that's

1379
01:11:46,920 --> 01:11:48,520
a version of the Gospel right right in the middle

1380
01:11:48,520 --> 01:11:49,680
of that spear in the center.

1381
01:11:50,279 --> 01:11:53,079
Speaker 5: That's amazing. That's amazing, It's everything. Jordan, listen.

1382
01:11:53,560 --> 01:11:56,239
Speaker 4: I think we think we've I think we've come to

1383
01:11:56,239 --> 01:11:59,800
the end of our conversation. I I'm really, I mean really,

1384
01:12:00,039 --> 01:12:02,359
I want to just express that I was I've been

1385
01:12:02,600 --> 01:12:06,039
finding a lot of joy and seeing your journey and

1386
01:12:06,039 --> 01:12:08,600
seeing your path and uh and you know the things

1387
01:12:08,600 --> 01:12:11,039
that you're talking about. You know, I remember when I

1388
01:12:11,079 --> 01:12:14,840
first encountered your work. You know, you you were trying

1389
01:12:15,039 --> 01:12:17,359
often trying to think of how to disrupt, right, how

1390
01:12:17,359 --> 01:12:19,800
to disrupt the system, how to disrupt the machine? How

1391
01:12:20,079 --> 01:12:21,720
you know, And I was like, I could I kind

1392
01:12:21,720 --> 01:12:23,680
of understood what you're saying, but I feel like you

1393
01:12:23,680 --> 01:12:27,000
know what you're presenting with us, what you're presenting to

1394
01:12:27,079 --> 01:12:32,039
us now is is a far deeper way of understanding

1395
01:12:32,079 --> 01:12:33,840
and in the end, and the thing is that it

1396
01:12:34,000 --> 01:12:37,359
is the ultimate disruption in a way. You know, it's

1397
01:12:37,399 --> 01:12:39,600
not a planned disruption in the sense of like, here's

1398
01:12:39,600 --> 01:12:42,239
how we can strategically kind of you know, let's say,

1399
01:12:42,279 --> 01:12:45,239
break the machine that's setting itself up.

1400
01:12:45,279 --> 01:12:46,920
Speaker 5: It's rather ascend.

1401
01:12:46,640 --> 01:12:50,520
Speaker 4: Vertically to become more than the than just this mediocre

1402
01:12:50,560 --> 01:12:54,399
machine that that we're that we're living in. Uh and

1403
01:12:54,520 --> 01:12:57,800
uh and yeah, it's a it's a beautiful it's beautiful journey.

1404
01:12:57,640 --> 01:12:59,880
Speaker 1: But I'm sure you understand this, but you have some

1405
01:13:00,079 --> 01:13:02,760
a substantial amount of contribution to that. So I have

1406
01:13:02,800 --> 01:13:04,880
a tremendous amount of gratitude.

1407
01:13:04,479 --> 01:13:08,159
Speaker 5: Glory to God for any help that I provided.

1408
01:13:08,199 --> 01:13:11,920
Speaker 4: And we'll be watching and discussion and hopefully collaborating more

1409
01:13:11,920 --> 01:13:12,439
in the future.

1410
01:13:12,479 --> 01:13:13,640
Speaker 5: Jordan, it's good to talk to you.

1411
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Speaker 1: Wonderful. Yeah.

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Speaker 4: If you enjoy these videos and podcasts, please go to

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the Symbolic World dot com website and see how you

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can support what we're doing. There are multiple subscriber tiers

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with perks. There are apparel and books to purchase, So

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go to the Symbolic World dot com and thank you

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for your support.