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Speaker 3: Plus, you are now listening to True Murder, the most
Speaker 3: shocking killers in true crime history and the authors that
Speaker 3: have written about them Gaesy, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker Dck.
Speaker 3: Every week, another fascinating author talking about the most shocking
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Speaker 3: your host journalist and author Dan Zufanski.
Speaker 6: Good evening. Nina, a new graduate from fashion design in college,
Speaker 6: gladly accepts the offer to have her palm read as
Speaker 6: a graduation gift. Smiling, The palm reader tells Nina that
Speaker 6: she has a long life lifeline as she traces it
Speaker 6: on her hand. As soon as the words are uttered,
Speaker 6: the palm reader's facial expression turns to one of fear.
Speaker 6: In broken English, she whispers, break, very bad, break in
Speaker 6: the middle of life. Maybe you die. Nina does come
Speaker 6: close to death at age thirty four, when she and
Speaker 6: her family are involved in a serious auto accident. She
Speaker 6: assumes she has successfully cheated the death that the palm
Speaker 6: reader prophesied. Unfortunately, the sinister and tragic break in the
Speaker 6: lifeline and its deliverer are yet to be revealed. The
Speaker 6: book that we're featuring this evening is Maybe You Die,
Speaker 6: The true story of a couple living the All American
Speaker 6: Nightmare with my special guest author, Nancy Lee. Welcome to
Speaker 6: the program, and thank you very much for a Greenness interview.
Speaker 7: Nancy Lee, thank you for inviting me.
Speaker 6: Thank you so much. This is a remarkable story and
Speaker 6: let's get right to this Maybe You Die. You opened
Speaker 6: this fascinating book with your experience with a psychic name,
Speaker 6: Mary Kubiachi, sixty year old, just sixty year old woman,
Speaker 6: you say is very mysterious, and you at that time
Speaker 6: were had your aspirations. You were a fashion designer. Tell
Speaker 6: us what happens at this faithful meeting with Mary Kubiachi
Speaker 6: this reading? What did she say?
Speaker 7: That was my last day of school and she was
Speaker 7: going to give me a gift, and she read my
Speaker 7: palm and told me this and the shocking news that
Speaker 7: maybe I would die. And then suddenly she just turned
Speaker 7: her demeanor and says, but if you live, you live
Speaker 7: long time. And with that, my professor heard her and
Speaker 7: took her by the arm and was dragging up the stairs,
Speaker 7: warning her she's not suppose to be telling fortunes, right,
Speaker 7: And then the books start.
Speaker 6: Yeah, you also say that you asked her when this
Speaker 6: thing might happen, This event might happen, She said, maybe
Speaker 6: thirty or forty. But like as you say, if you
Speaker 6: live long life, if you live, you live long life.
Speaker 6: Now in the book, you segue right too. You being
Speaker 6: in the hospital in dire straits, tell us what your
Speaker 6: feelings are and tell us your predicament at that time.
Speaker 6: Why are you there?
Speaker 7: Yeah? The book starts at my being in the hospital
Speaker 7: on the operating table and noticing how my mouth is
Speaker 7: filled with blood, and I'm in an out of consciousness
Speaker 7: and I hear people talking, and I asked them if
Speaker 7: they would please to get a priest for me because
Speaker 7: I'm dying, and some man's voice says, no, we're doing
Speaker 7: all we can to keep that from happening. And then
Speaker 7: all of a sudden, I hear a man's voice saying
Speaker 7: that you've asked for a priest, and they said yes,
Speaker 7: and he said, would you like to I would like
Speaker 7: to hear your confession. Would you like to do that?
Speaker 7: And it threw me because no, I wasn't looking for
Speaker 7: a confession. I was looking for a priest to give
Speaker 7: me the last last rites. And he said, okay, let's
Speaker 7: go from there, and then all of a sudden, I
Speaker 7: started with the pain was subsiding that I was feeling
Speaker 7: all over, and it just got quieter, and the voice
Speaker 7: this got quieter, and suddenly there was I was in
Speaker 7: no more pain, right. And then the next thing I
Speaker 7: remembered was on the next day, and I think it
Speaker 7: was the next day, and somebody was touching my head
Speaker 7: and I'm I'm saying, oh, you know, I hurt. I hurt.
Speaker 7: And she said, I said, these bandages, something is on
Speaker 7: me and she said yes, she said, their compression bandages.
Speaker 7: She said, there are parts of your scalp that are missing,
Speaker 7: and she said that we have to put pressure on them.
Speaker 7: And she said, you'll be all right? Can you be okay?
Speaker 7: God is with you? Do you are? You are a miracle.
Speaker 6: Right?
Speaker 7: And you then go ahead.
Speaker 6: So you then reminisce you are settled, and you realize
Speaker 6: where you are, you have people, you are safe, your
Speaker 6: friends come to visit, that there are people around you.
Speaker 6: You realize that you're okay. Then you realize, as you
Speaker 6: do in the book, you reminisce about how this all
Speaker 6: started your marriage with Bob before your children arrived, and
Speaker 6: as you do, you tell us about who you were
Speaker 6: before you met Bob and you grew up. So tell
Speaker 6: us tell our audience how you met Bob before before that,
Speaker 6: how you grew up where you grew up.
Speaker 7: I grew up in a Polish neighborhood in Chicago. They
Speaker 7: were all like little neighborhoods. And I went to both
Speaker 7: at the Art Institute for a while and also the
Speaker 7: Chicago Academy of Fine Arts is where I got my
Speaker 7: my degree in fashion design. And I worked part time
Speaker 7: at Marshall Fields and I I went to school over there,
Speaker 7: you know, at downtown Chicago. I I was very happy.
Speaker 7: I got the top job and offer, and it was
Speaker 7: to design for Maidenforum. And you would think that that
Speaker 7: is not That was the highest paid job then. And
Speaker 7: it was just my last day, I mean at school
Speaker 7: when Mary uh came and started talking about this. But
Speaker 7: we had a big Polish wedding. It was supposed to
Speaker 7: just be a nice, little formal wedding, and then Bob's
Speaker 7: parents said, you know, we've been going to weddings all
Speaker 7: of our years, and we would like all more people.
Speaker 7: And before you knew it, our wedding that we were
Speaker 7: planning was totally out of control and it was our
Speaker 7: parents' wedding, and I made the dresses and the you know,
Speaker 7: my dress, all the bride'smaid dresses. And then we Rich
Speaker 7: was Bob Rich's cousins and that was helping me with
Speaker 7: some of the stuff. But anyhow, Bob Bob wanted to
Speaker 7: finish more schooling and so we ended up in Houston,
Speaker 7: Texas for one of the most UH prestigious photography studios
Speaker 7: in the world. And I got that job as a
Speaker 7: receptionist just because UH our Before that, we lived in
Speaker 7: Bloomington as he finished the year before, and I worked
Speaker 7: at a studio and they suggested I go there, and
Speaker 7: that was one of the experienced great experiences of my life.
Speaker 7: They were associated with the back Rock Studio and our
Speaker 7: clients were the President and the UH and the royalty
Speaker 7: of the world. And from that we came UH to
Speaker 7: the Midwest, back here for him to get his job,
Speaker 7: and then I had We decided to settle down here
Speaker 7: for a couple of years with the promise that we
Speaker 7: would go back to Chicago and I could continue my career.
Speaker 7: But in those days, a lot of us women UH
Speaker 7: we we bent to our husband to their career, and
Speaker 7: so I put mine on the back stage so that
Speaker 7: we could further his and I had we bought a home,
Speaker 7: a student home, uh no Ah, a student house for
Speaker 7: college students to live. And so I had s seventeen
Speaker 7: students that I had to take care of, plus working
Speaker 7: my job and he worked his job. And I had
Speaker 7: got pregnant and had a miscarriage and was told had
Speaker 7: had to have major surgery and was told that I
Speaker 7: would never be able to have children. There was just
Speaker 7: too much damage. And so we adopted a beautiful little
Speaker 7: baby girl, and then lo and behold, I got pregnant
Speaker 7: and the doctor said there was no way, there was
Speaker 7: too much missing, and yet there it was. I had
Speaker 7: three children, and in the meantime we were into We
Speaker 7: bought a pet, Saint Bernard, and then we took her
Speaker 7: to obedience school and found out she was pretty good,
Speaker 7: so they said show her, so we showed her, and
Speaker 7: before you knew it, we were showing this dog and
Speaker 7: getting interested in the breeding program and showing and Rich's
Speaker 7: career or his first name is Bob, middle name, but
Speaker 7: we called him that. So Bob's career was had taken
Speaker 7: off and we were doing well, and we decided to
Speaker 7: build a kennel to board and groom dogs. And it
Speaker 7: was so beautifully done that Ralston Perina came out, took pictures.
Speaker 7: It was in the newspapers and everything. So now I
Speaker 7: was at the head of that while he was working
Speaker 7: his job, and we had people helping with the house
Speaker 7: and the children, and life seemed very very good and
Speaker 7: we were very happy.
Speaker 6: You talk about then you were sorry you would talk
Speaker 6: about your career. Aspirations though that you actually wants.
Speaker 7: Were put on the back burner.
Speaker 6: Right, But your plans always were to head to Chicago.
Speaker 6: But all these plans were on the back burner. But
Speaker 6: let me let me ask you about your relationship. We
Speaker 6: haven't talked about. I mean, obviously you fell in love.
Speaker 6: It was you thought it was an idyllic marriage. You
Speaker 6: had goals. He loved the idea of adopting. When you
Speaker 6: realized that you might not be able to well, you
Speaker 6: were told you weren't being able to have children. When
Speaker 6: you did have children, he was excited. He was a
Speaker 6: good father, he was a participant. Your marriage was strong.
Speaker 6: So you thought, these are the kinds of things in
Speaker 6: his personality that you loved about him. And at some
Speaker 6: point during this time, things changed, but it took a
Speaker 6: long time for you to see any changes in him whatsoever.
Speaker 6: He was a happy person, you said, at some point
Speaker 6: before you noticed anything untoward, you noticed a difference in
Speaker 6: his behavi just towards you.
Speaker 7: His his his person he was. He was such a
Speaker 7: jovial person. He loved everybody, and everybody loved him. And
Speaker 7: I mean I never never would think that he would
Speaker 7: not just be the perfect husband as he had been
Speaker 7: a wonderful father. Oh my gosh, life was good. The
Speaker 7: kennel was growing, and everything was beautiful. I mean, it
Speaker 7: was just like a dream.
Speaker 8: You know.
Speaker 7: We couldn't have children, and then we did. And uh,
Speaker 7: and this one day and he started a new a
Speaker 7: new business for for someone doing his type of work.
Speaker 7: And we had to go on a vacation to know.
Speaker 7: It was before we went on the vacation, we were
Speaker 7: invited to one of his nurse's homes for dinner. And
Speaker 7: I said, and we had a wonderful time. And the
Speaker 7: children were with him, and they had three children. And
Speaker 7: I said to him as we got in the car,
Speaker 7: I said, gee, I said, I can't believe how she
Speaker 7: could have you know, the house that meet with three
Speaker 7: children working and and it was just overwhelming that she
Speaker 7: could do all that. And he said, sometimes the house
Speaker 7: isn't that clean. And suddenly something was wrong and I said,
Speaker 7: you've been here before, and he stuttered and said, well,
Speaker 7: a couple times. Her husband couldn't get there to the
Speaker 7: clinic to pick her up. So I drove her home
Speaker 7: and we're in the car and he's starting it, and
Speaker 7: it was autumn, and the little tiny leaves were dancing
Speaker 7: across the hood of the car as he started it,
Speaker 7: and I started shaking. It seemed I felt like something
Speaker 7: is different in our life now that was never there before.
Speaker 7: And that's when I first picked up on something I
Speaker 7: had hoped that I didn't, that I didn't, that wasn't real,
Speaker 7: But it was the beginning of the end in a way.
Speaker 6: You talked about that when you grew up, your parents
Speaker 6: seemed to always fight, and then you thought that Bob's
Speaker 6: parents had a good relationship, and so you became You
Speaker 6: did get close to these people and counted on them
Speaker 6: for help with the children, obviously, and everything that ever
Speaker 6: happened to you, including the accident and all the hospitalizations.
Speaker 6: These people were there for you.
Speaker 7: Always, and I was there for them to the day
Speaker 7: they died. We had an excellent, excellent family relationship and
Speaker 7: so but things started going wrong, you know. There was
Speaker 7: just that stealing when we went to Florida. He's sending
Speaker 7: little cards to the old nurse that worked with him,
Speaker 7: not to this one that I was concerned about. And
Speaker 7: I said, you're sending cards because he never would send,
Speaker 7: you know, a car to anybody. And it was just
Speaker 7: another thing that started me worrying about what was going on.
Speaker 7: And then one day I had to I had to
Speaker 7: go to the kennel to get it opened. Waiting for
Speaker 7: the receptionist to come in. I came back to the
Speaker 7: house and bumped into him, and he should have already
Speaker 7: left for the hospital, and I said, and he's standing
Speaker 7: there holding sleeping bags that I came from the girl's closet.
Speaker 7: And I said, what are you doing? And he said, oh,
Speaker 7: I noticed these needed repairing. And I said they need
Speaker 7: repairing and I said, they don't need repairing. What are
Speaker 7: you doing in their closet? He said, He said that.
Speaker 7: I just looked at something was sticking out of the
Speaker 7: of the shelf and I walked by and I picked
Speaker 7: him up, and I was gonna show it to you
Speaker 7: and thought that there was something wrong. So I at
Speaker 7: that point was thinking, no, he's taking them out somewhere
Speaker 7: for the afternoon, for the lunch, to go to the
Speaker 7: park or something like that. And that was my first thing. Mm.
Speaker 7: Then there were other instances where I knew that he
Speaker 7: was going out at night and sneaking in and realized
Speaker 7: that there was something going on. And and I had
Speaker 7: to go to the university with a puppy and leave
Speaker 7: my youngest son with one of my friends who had
Speaker 7: a child that age. And when I left him, sh
Speaker 7: I was shaking all over. That was the day rather
Speaker 7: that the b they he was had the blank it's
Speaker 7: And she said, what's the matter And I said nothing,
Speaker 7: and she said, yes, there is something, and she said
Speaker 7: you need to sit down and listen to what I
Speaker 7: have to say. And she said, all of us in
Speaker 7: the kennel club are getting these strange phone calls and
Speaker 7: they are just saying how nervous you are and this,
Speaker 7: And she said, we all know you better than that.
Speaker 7: And she said everyone's talking, but nobody's telling you. She said, Nancy,
Speaker 7: she said, I think there's something going on. And I
Speaker 7: said I do too, And I said I don't know
Speaker 7: what to do. And I said, you know, she says,
Speaker 7: why don't you prove it so that one way or another?
Speaker 7: And I said, well, how do I do that? And
Speaker 7: she said, Hi, you're a detective. I said, I can't
Speaker 7: afford a detective. The kennel is just hanging on up there,
Speaker 7: red it's new, and so anyhow, I went to the
Speaker 7: University of Illinois, I had the puppy checked, and came
Speaker 7: back home and picked up my child and went to
Speaker 7: the kennel and opened the phone book and there was
Speaker 7: enough money I opened because the Christmas boarders were checking out.
Speaker 7: And I called a detective and I told him my
Speaker 7: suspicions of the different things that were happening. And he said,
Speaker 7: piece the cake. And I said, well, what are you
Speaker 7: talking about. He said, I'll have him. I'll have him
Speaker 7: disproven for you in a day or two. I said,
Speaker 7: you're kidding. He said no. He said he's gotten so
Speaker 7: cocky now that he that it will be easy. And
Speaker 7: so I paid him the money and he put a
Speaker 7: trap on the car or under the wheels through what
Speaker 7: they do, and they followed them to the park with
Speaker 7: different sleeping bags, and so it was just such a relief,
Speaker 7: because I had been thinking of going crazy that this man,
Speaker 7: this cannot be happening. He is just the best person
Speaker 7: in the whole world, you know, and you're doubting yourself.
Speaker 7: I'm tyed and doubting me, you know, like, what is
Speaker 7: what's going on here with? You know, we have everything
Speaker 7: going for us, But I guess it looked pretty good
Speaker 7: to somebody else too. And that night he was going
Speaker 7: to bowling with it with the group, and the detective
Speaker 7: called me from the bowling out.
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Speaker 7: And he said, did he just call you? And I
Speaker 7: said no, and he said he said, And he said,
Speaker 7: what do you say? Because the heaps of standing in
Speaker 7: line behind him waiting for the phone. And he told
Speaker 7: me that he was going to drive somebody home, and
Speaker 7: he said, okay, I'll follow you him. And when he
Speaker 7: followed him, he followed him to her house. And then
Speaker 7: an hour later he called me and said he's leaving
Speaker 7: and he had a flat tire and so there was
Speaker 7: middle of nothing, and so he had to call me
Speaker 7: to tell me to pick him up. And it was
Speaker 7: rather joyous and in a way because I knew that
Speaker 7: I wasn't crazy, because that was really starting to, you know,
Speaker 7: work on me that I'm imagining that this great guy
Speaker 7: could do this. So anyhow, I filed for divorce and
Speaker 7: he said, no, let's go for consoling. Let's go for
Speaker 7: conson Let's go to this priest. Let's go to a priest.
Speaker 7: He won't charge us. So we go to the priest
Speaker 7: and we both talked to him, and then he said,
Speaker 7: I want to talk to each of you for one hour.
Speaker 7: And then he said, I'll let you know whether I
Speaker 7: can come console you, and I will call you Nancy.
Speaker 7: And he never called. So a couple of days went
Speaker 7: by and I called him and he said, I've decided
Speaker 7: I can't console you. His problems are too deep. I said,
Speaker 7: what are you talking about? His problems? He just he's
Speaker 7: having a fling. What kind of problems does he have?
Speaker 7: And he's said, he says, my suggestion is you got
Speaker 7: to see a psychiatrist, and you both have to go
Speaker 7: if you want to save this marriage. He said, but
Speaker 7: my honest feelings are get the divorce, don't go. But
Speaker 7: I know I'm not going to give up. So I
Speaker 7: went to the psychiatrist two times and he refused to go.
Speaker 7: And then one of my friends says that she says,
Speaker 7: why don't we try my reverend. He's a Presbyterian and
Speaker 7: he was the head pastor at a one at the
Speaker 7: big prisons in the United States. She said, you can
Speaker 7: tell him anything, and so can so can your husband, Bob.
Speaker 7: And I said okay, And we went to him for constantly,
Speaker 7: and for months it was very nice. Everything was like
Speaker 7: back to normal. And then all of a sudden, something
Speaker 7: is wrong, just something is wrong that I can't put
Speaker 7: my fingers on. And I didn't know what to do.
Speaker 7: And I went back to the reverend and he said, Nancy,
Speaker 7: He said, I've never known a woman to say that.
Speaker 7: She knows. You're built in with special equipment in your brains,
Speaker 7: and you know something is wrong, and it is then wrong.
Speaker 7: She said now, He said, now, you must get out
Speaker 7: of this. You must get out of this marriage. It
Speaker 7: is not healthy. And he said it's a man's world.
Speaker 7: You know, You've got to get everything you can, but
Speaker 7: you've got to get out of this now. And I'm
Speaker 7: still not you know, just I'm not ready to let go.
Speaker 7: And but in the meantime, this story goes along of
Speaker 7: my being in the hospital and all of the day,
Speaker 7: each day, each day something new in the hospital. Sixteen
Speaker 7: days and ironically, we had been married sixteen years. And
Speaker 7: each day I find a different thing. First couple of days,
Speaker 7: just that I'm alive, and then how much damage I
Speaker 7: think the third or for the day, the three doctors
Speaker 7: come in once in a suit. When two are in,
Speaker 7: there are and they're said, hey, you're looking pretty good, lady,
Speaker 7: and I'm of course looking at them. I have no
Speaker 7: idea who they are, and they are introducing themselves, and
Speaker 7: of course I barely see and I still don't know,
Speaker 7: and they're just saying, look, look, let's let's let's check
Speaker 7: you out and see how you're doing. And they're looking
Speaker 7: at my head and they said, look at that. He said,
Speaker 7: we did a good job. He said, those ears made it.
Speaker 7: I said, what ears made it? They said, well, your
Speaker 7: ears were cut off except for the facial tissue holding
Speaker 7: them on, and we did our best under the circumstances,
Speaker 7: you know that, to hope that we could get them
Speaker 7: to stay on. I said, my m I I might
Speaker 7: not have ears. And with that, I don't remember anything
Speaker 7: else that they said. I was just in such a
Speaker 7: state of shock that I think I just I fainted away.
Speaker 7: And each day different doctors would come in and check
Speaker 7: me for different things on my head and uh telling
Speaker 7: me where I stood. I had no idea what I
Speaker 7: looked like. I know that that uh A plastic surgeon
Speaker 7: came in and he picked me up and put me
Speaker 7: on the window sill to take a good look. And
Speaker 7: he said, wow, he said, you know this is amazing.
Speaker 7: Your face is cracked completely in half on this side,
Speaker 7: the whole face, and the other one just partly. He said,
Speaker 7: but it according to the X rays, it looks like
Speaker 7: it's going back together with I just can't believe without
Speaker 7: having to get in there and pin it. He said,
Speaker 7: you're gonna have some scars you're gonna need and a
Speaker 7: lot of scars. You have a lot of scars. We're
Speaker 7: gonna have to remove your scalp at the top and
Speaker 7: pull it up over a little bit to hide. There's
Speaker 7: so many up at the top there. And I'm just
Speaker 7: listening and thinking, oh my god, what do I look like.
Speaker 7: I must be a monster because of these things, and
Speaker 7: I don't want I'm not looking at myself. I'd asked
Speaker 7: the nurse the day before to turn the mirror that
Speaker 7: was way up in front on the wall around. I
Speaker 7: was afraid to look at me because I'd already heard
Speaker 7: about the ears, and now I'm hearing about this. In
Speaker 7: each day it was something else. An eye doctor was
Speaker 7: there all the time, and then they had a dentist
Speaker 7: come in in another day, and this just went on
Speaker 7: and on and on.
Speaker 6: Five hundred stitches in your face and your head.
Speaker 7: You right, pardon how many.
Speaker 6: Five hundred stitches?
Speaker 8: Oh?
Speaker 7: Yes, they said they lost track on the operating table.
Speaker 7: That's when they lost me. That's when I died. That's
Speaker 7: when the priest was there. I died when the priest
Speaker 7: was there. They were counting. They just couldn't believe there
Speaker 7: was so much damage, and and they had got to that,
Speaker 7: and then then of course there went Then it was
Speaker 7: the time to save my life and stop counting stitches.
Speaker 6: And pardon you if you were in the hospital. You're
Speaker 6: in the hospital recovering, and every day you chronicle that
Speaker 6: in the book and talk about things getting better, but
Speaker 6: also that you also learn things as time goes on.
Speaker 6: Of course, at first, because Bob, because of Bob, and
Speaker 6: we haven't got to what exactly happened, but because of this,
Speaker 6: they don't. You're not even having phone contact with anybody,
Speaker 6: and there's a guard outside the hospital in case, when
Speaker 6: you're in the hospital as well, you talk to somebody
Speaker 6: and it's a very important phone call with Sue's husband, Chuck.
Speaker 6: What does he say to you?
Speaker 7: Yes? And that was that was later. That was a
Speaker 7: little bit later when I was already thinking that maybe
Speaker 7: because the attorneys wouldn't take him as a client unless
Speaker 7: he committed himself. You know that he had had been
Speaker 7: arrested and he had enough money for the kennel to
Speaker 7: bail himself out, but he had to commit himself to
Speaker 7: the mental ward before they would take him as a client,
Speaker 7: and he did, and the police gave him a truth
Speaker 7: serum drug to have him tell the truth, and he hyperventilated.
Speaker 7: He knows enough about medicine that if you do that,
Speaker 7: they won't do it again. And they chose not to
Speaker 7: do it again, so they'd got no information out of him.
Speaker 7: And they did run medical test and find out that
Speaker 7: he had hypoglycemia and sort of the opposite of sugar diabetes.
Speaker 7: And they sometimes can make people do strange things, but
Speaker 7: this was more than strange. And then he was able
Speaker 7: to be free, and like he every day, I learned
Speaker 7: something new about what was happening to me. What condition
Speaker 7: I was in, what things I was going to have
Speaker 7: to have done when I got out of the hospital.
Speaker 7: I hadn't talked to my children, and at one point
Speaker 7: I thought about that. I thought, oh my god, I
Speaker 7: haven't even thought about the kids. Where is my head?
Speaker 7: You know? I mean, is everybody okay? And that I
Speaker 7: mean I was just still so out of it for
Speaker 7: such a long time and nearing There was a point
Speaker 7: that came to nearing the end, and I was thinking, maybe,
Speaker 7: you know, going for for help.
Speaker 5: That.
Speaker 7: I needed to think about, think about this, that he
Speaker 7: has said he's got a problem, and maybe I should
Speaker 7: rethink of this. And the phone ring and it was
Speaker 7: her ex husband. She divorced him and in the year
Speaker 7: and a half that we were separated. You know, that
Speaker 7: meant we weren't separated, but that we were having this problem.
Speaker 7: I'm still married, but sh he divorced her. And he said,
Speaker 7: he said, does anyone He said, I know that you're
Speaker 7: thinking of going back. And he said, you need to
Speaker 7: hear this before you do. He said, oh, not even
Speaker 7: a year ago. The phone rang and I was on
Speaker 7: a different shift, and he said I heard them talking,
Speaker 7: and I thought I was sleep dreaming sleeping. He said,
Speaker 7: I paid little attention until now. And he said, what
Speaker 7: I heard was, he said, did you have any kind
Speaker 7: of surgery? And I said, yes, I had some veinstripping.
Speaker 7: And I said, I had a really rough time all
Speaker 7: of the incisions infected. He said, and did, And I said,
Speaker 7: and as a matter of fact, you're what And I'm
Speaker 7: accusing them still of having an affair. And she calls
Speaker 7: me and asks me to drive me to the doctor
Speaker 7: from my checkup. And I thought that was so strange.
Speaker 7: But it was later in the same day that I
Speaker 7: fainted at the kennel. I was at the kennel and
Speaker 7: I just and I'm getting ready to go to the
Speaker 7: doctor to have him check my incisions. And I'm at
Speaker 7: the kennel just checking everything is okay, everybody's there that's
Speaker 7: supposed to be there, and I'm going to go, and
Speaker 7: I fainted and I called my husband, Bob, and I
Speaker 7: told him, and he said, don't go driving. I said,
Speaker 7: why not. I said, this doesn't mean you know, I said,
Speaker 7: I'm okay now. I said, I just probably turned my
Speaker 7: head too fast or something. And then his girlfriend to
Speaker 7: be called me and asked to drive me. And he
Speaker 7: said it was such a weird conversation that I never
Speaker 7: never mentioned it to you, he said, But today something
Speaker 7: happened and that made me go back to this weird conversation.
Speaker 7: And he said, and this was when I was getting
Speaker 7: close to leaving the hospital fourteenth day or something like that,
Speaker 7: and he said, does anybody spill a certain brand of
Speaker 7: dog food? And I said, no, nobody in the country
Speaker 7: has it. One of the breweries is starting to make it,
Speaker 7: and they gave you know, they'd be give us. We
Speaker 7: bought four ton of it to have it right. And
Speaker 7: he said, well, I thought that your you and your
Speaker 7: husband are thinking about getting back together, and I just
Speaker 7: wanted you to know there were ten bags of it
Speaker 7: on our porch because they had one of our dogs.
Speaker 7: They bought one from us. And he said, and that
Speaker 7: conversation that I heard last year close to it came
Speaker 7: back to me. You know that I should. I should
Speaker 7: tell you, no matter how bizarre it is, because if
Speaker 7: they're if there's nothing going on it and he wants
Speaker 7: to get back to you, why does she have this
Speaker 7: dog food? He said? You know I've been so naive
Speaker 7: all of this time, Nancy that uh Nina, you know
Speaker 7: that you need to know, you need to know that
Speaker 7: that this may still be going on. And so right
Speaker 7: then and there I decided, Okay, that was it, that
Speaker 7: that was it. But even before that happened, I, you know,
Speaker 7: I was giving you know, to that to that point.
Speaker 7: There was another point that besides going to Reverend Gates,
Speaker 7: I went back to call the priest to see, you know,
Speaker 7: if he would consider I was trying everything desperately to
Speaker 7: keep my family together foolishly. And I called the priest
Speaker 7: and the housekeeper answered and then said father's in the hospital.
Speaker 7: He's having minors surgery and he's such a sissy about it.
Speaker 7: She said, I'm going to call him and tell him
Speaker 7: you're going to go, because we've talked about you over
Speaker 7: the last year, and he'll be glad to see you.
Speaker 7: And so I went up to see him at the
Speaker 7: hospital and he said, these are just all of these
Speaker 7: things are scattered, but they're in the book and make
Speaker 7: the piece together beautifully. I'm not doing a good job
Speaker 7: of it. And I went to see him and he said,
Speaker 7: I'm so glad you're here. And I said, I'm so
Speaker 7: glad you're going to counsel us. And he said, oh no, no, no, no,
Speaker 7: I'm not going to console you. He said, I have
Speaker 7: thought about this and thought about us. And remember when
Speaker 7: I suggested you go to a psychiatrist. He said, I
Speaker 7: could see something that you know of danger, And how
Speaker 7: could I tell you I'm a psychologist, But I just
Speaker 7: knew the problems were so deep within this person. And
Speaker 7: he said, I want you to leave, Nina. I want
Speaker 7: you to leave right now and go file and get
Speaker 7: out of this marriage while you still can. And I
Speaker 7: was shaking so bad, and I had to go to
Speaker 7: that dark parking deck to get my car, and I
Speaker 7: was shaking and I couldn't get the damn key into
Speaker 7: the lock of the car. And I finally got it,
Speaker 7: and I jumped into the car and I put my
Speaker 7: head on the steering wheel and just sat there for
Speaker 7: a little bit to try to get my composure before
Speaker 7: I start driving. And there was a bang on the
Speaker 7: car door and I looked and screamed, and the person
Speaker 7: was an elderly man and he screamed and he just
Speaker 7: happened to be in the car next to me, and
Speaker 7: he thought I was sick and I said, no, no,
Speaker 7: I'm okay. And I said I'm okay, I'm just thinking,
Speaker 7: and I hurried up and got out of there, and
Speaker 7: over all the years to this day, I worry about
Speaker 7: that man. I worry. Oh my god, I could have
Speaker 7: killed him. I hope I didn't, you know, I just
Speaker 7: he was He was so terrified and I was so terrified.
Speaker 7: And then right after that is when when all of
Speaker 7: this stuff happened. And it's tell us book is written
Speaker 7: where it goes very smoothly a day in the hospital
Speaker 7: and a day of our life. And the reviews have
Speaker 7: been just wonderful, saying how well written it is, and
Speaker 7: I'm so proud of it, so much better than my
Speaker 7: talking on the pomcast.
Speaker 8: I'm sorry, I wanted to I wanted to go back
Speaker 8: a little bit because again we haven't talked about this
Speaker 8: actual what he did, what he actually.
Speaker 6: Did, and why we talk about. When you mentioned you're
Speaker 6: in the hospital recovering and you talk to Chuck, he
Speaker 6: also told you, you know, you had to get out
Speaker 6: that that you're that the suspicions you had were true.
Speaker 6: But he gave you some startling information about this car
Speaker 6: accident you were involved with with your husband and your
Speaker 6: children where you were almost killed and the idea of
Speaker 6: the antibiotic that you were prescribed when you had the
Speaker 6: very coast vein incisions and operation when it.
Speaker 7: Became In fact, that was part of the conversation, is that,
Speaker 7: I mean, some of what you're saying is a little
Speaker 7: bit out of orders. So on the conversation, he said,
Speaker 7: were you taking any pills? I said, yes, I was
Speaker 7: going to the doctor to check my legs for the surgery.
Speaker 7: This is, you know, months and months before the actual murder.
Speaker 7: And he her husband, asked me, Chuck said, did you
Speaker 7: were you taking medicine? And I said yes, I was
Speaker 7: taking an antibiotic and muscle relaxant and he said, and
Speaker 7: you know, and did anything happen? And I said, yes,
Speaker 7: I fainted, but I thought it was just because I
Speaker 7: had turned around too quickly, or so when I went
Speaker 7: to the kennel to check to make sure everything was okay,
Speaker 7: and I was going to the doctor to have him
Speaker 7: checked my legs, and he said they about taking medicine
Speaker 7: out of a capsule and putting sleeping medicine in it.
Speaker 7: And I said, oh my god, that's what happened. Because
Speaker 7: when I went to the doctor, he said he had
Speaker 7: never seen all of those incisions in fact, he said,
Speaker 7: once in a while, you'll get one, you know that
Speaker 7: you'll have one incision, but a whole row of them
Speaker 7: all infected. Were you taking your antibiotics? And I said yes,
Speaker 7: And then that led me to what what Chuck had said,
Speaker 7: is that, oh my god, they had taken my antibiotic
Speaker 7: medicine out of the capsules and poured sleeping medicine. And
Speaker 7: that's why I collapsed on the floor. And I could
Speaker 7: have gotten into a car accident. And I did go
Speaker 7: ahead and drive, and I didn't notice anything else. But
Speaker 7: I could have killed people. I could have killed me.
Speaker 7: But they they wanted me to sleep so that they
Speaker 7: could get out at night, and that they didn't know
Speaker 7: that during the day I had an appointment to go
Speaker 7: to the doctor, and that now I didn't know. Do
Speaker 7: you want me to tell the act, the actual the
Speaker 7: actual event, Well.
Speaker 6: What happened? We need to hear this because, as you
Speaker 6: write in the book, all along this time that you're
Speaker 6: in the recovery, after the phone restrictions are lifted, Bob calls,
Speaker 6: and Bob expresses his love and his commitment to the family,
Speaker 6: and then tells you about this hypogosmia that he's offering
Speaker 6: from and that if he just gets medication, he'd be
Speaker 6: back to normal, and he professes his love and then
Speaker 6: he's just sick. But let's go back to when you're
Speaker 6: separated and then want what happens in this actual attack?
Speaker 6: What leads up to this? Tell us about that.
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Speaker 7: What to the attack? We were doing We were doing better,
Speaker 7: We seemed to be doing better, and yet he was
Speaker 7: very strange. It was just like there was a coldness
Speaker 7: there that had never been nothing mean or anything. And
Speaker 7: I didn't notice him going, no more escaping at night
Speaker 7: or any of those things. And he said that she
Speaker 7: was dating some policeman, and so I figure she's out
Speaker 7: of the radar. And we had plans to go to
Speaker 7: a friend's house about twenty miles away to play cards
Speaker 7: and go out to dinner. And it was a blizzard.
Speaker 7: It was a horrible blizzard, and I said we can't go.
Speaker 7: So I called, you know, my groom, or said, you
Speaker 7: got to be quite crazy. She said, I'm getting out
Speaker 7: of here now as soon as I'm done with these dogs.
Speaker 7: And she said, youn't got to be nuts, you better
Speaker 7: call And I called him and I said, Bob, I said,
Speaker 7: we're not going. That's it. Call them and we're not
Speaker 7: going anywhere. I said, it's a snows already. And it
Speaker 7: ended up being one of Furia's worst blizzards ever. And
Speaker 7: I said, we're just we're just going to stick right here.
Speaker 7: And he said, no, we're not. We're going. And I said,
Speaker 7: you gotta be kidding. He said, we've canceled three times
Speaker 7: or twice or whatever it was on them. And I said,
Speaker 7: so what they're going to understand? They wouldn't come here,
Speaker 7: why would we go there? And he said we are going.
Speaker 7: I said, all right, you're driving. And I thought we
Speaker 7: would be taking He had the the smaller car that
Speaker 7: he that he used, not we had a big twelve
Speaker 7: passenger van because we were hauling Saint Bernard's and that
Speaker 7: to dog shows. And we go and Lucy, the nurse
Speaker 7: that had been babysitting for us. There are other as
Speaker 7: incidents that have happened that were that were very powerful
Speaker 7: in the book that you won't hear to you read
Speaker 7: the book. But anyhow, Lucy was here and I said, Lucy,
Speaker 7: this is crazy, and you know, I said, you know,
Speaker 7: we should not be going. And I said, you know this,
Speaker 7: this is dangerous. This is very dangerous. And I said,
Speaker 7: for some reason, he sure wants to get me out tonight.
Speaker 7: And so she just laughed and he said, I'll probably dry.
Speaker 7: I'll drive you home tonight, Lucy, because it'll be too
Speaker 7: bad for you to go home. And I thought, too bad.
Speaker 7: I said, I don't know how she got here. She's
Speaker 7: an old woman, has a little old car and drives, like,
Speaker 7: you know, thirty miles an hour. And so we go,
Speaker 7: we get and and oh, we're taking the van. I said,
Speaker 7: why on earth are we taking the big van? The
Speaker 7: little car holds the road a lot better than this
Speaker 7: big thing is going to you know. And he said
Speaker 7: we're and I said, we're going to take the van.
Speaker 7: I said, okay, you're driving, you know. And and so
Speaker 7: we went to dinner, and we got done with dinner
Speaker 7: with our friends and they're getting ready to go home,
Speaker 7: and and Bob says, no, we're gonna play cards. They said,
Speaker 7: you've got to be kidding, you know, it's like six
Speaker 7: inches deep already. We don't need to play cards. And
Speaker 7: my husband says, yes, we do. We planned this and
Speaker 7: planned this, and these said the road, there's nobody got
Speaker 7: much on the road, and we're not going to have
Speaker 7: any problems. And it's just so bizarre that we're going
Speaker 7: to do this. And so we play cards for an
Speaker 7: hour and then we get into We're getting into the
Speaker 7: car and he said, you drive. I said me, I
Speaker 7: never drive this thing, especially in this kind of weather.
Speaker 7: Why would you want me to drive? And he said,
Speaker 7: I've got a headache and I'm going to go lay
Speaker 7: down on the back seat. And it was a twelve
Speaker 7: passenger a van, so there were several rows of seats.
Speaker 7: And I said, you better sit right behind me because
Speaker 7: I don't even know where the edge of the road is.
Speaker 7: I don't even see a car. We're on a small
Speaker 7: interstate I mean, I'm on a small state road. And
Speaker 7: I said, I don't even see a car. I'm not
Speaker 7: even sure where the edge of the road is. And
Speaker 7: he said, i'll guide you. So anyhow, he's guiding me.
Speaker 7: And we've driven just about fifteen minutes and he said
Speaker 7: I'm going to lay down. I said, you got to
Speaker 7: be kidding. You can't go lay down. You can't go
Speaker 7: lay down, I said, I cannot see anything. And he said,
Speaker 7: he said, okay, pull over over. There there's an animal
Speaker 7: clinic that we have gone to and there's a big
Speaker 7: wide mouth to the driveway. You can just pull over.
Speaker 7: And I said, why don't you just put your head
Speaker 7: out the window and vomit, you know, because he said
Speaker 7: he had to vomit. And I said, because this is
Speaker 7: this is crazy. It is crazy. We can't pull off.
Speaker 7: We're not sure we're on and he said, we're on it. Now.
Speaker 7: Put the car. What the hell? Why am I putting
Speaker 7: the car in park? He said, put the car in
Speaker 7: park and it won't slide. I said, where's it gonna slide?
Speaker 7: We're on that flat space. And he's adamant about my
Speaker 7: putting the car in park. And I do that. I
Speaker 7: put it in park. Should I tell the rest?
Speaker 6: Yes?
Speaker 7: Okay? And anyhow, I put the car in park, and
Speaker 7: all of a sudden, I feel something hit my head
Speaker 7: and I thought a car may have run into us.
Speaker 7: And I look over my shoulder and he's there and
Speaker 7: he has this big mechanical tool, some kind of a tool.
Speaker 7: I don't know what it is. And he hit me
Speaker 7: again and and I'm screaming, what are you doing? What
Speaker 7: are you doing? I love you? I love you? Why
Speaker 7: are you? What are you doing to me? And he
Speaker 7: doesn't say a worthy, just looks cold and icy and
Speaker 7: makes no comments, and he just keeps hitting me. And
Speaker 7: at one point I could feel it slide across the
Speaker 7: front of me, and I grabbed it with my arm
Speaker 7: and held it and held it. And it's a great,
Speaker 7: big tool. It's some kind heavy, heavy and he jumps
Speaker 7: over the top of me, facing me, and he hits
Speaker 7: me with his fist on my face. And I noticed
Speaker 7: he's wearing my new leather gloves I gave him for Christmas.
Speaker 7: And he hits me again and again, and I'm begging
Speaker 7: and and I'm saying, you can't do that, and I'm
Speaker 7: praying to my mom, Mom, please watch over me, because
Speaker 7: you warned him, You warned me years ago that he
Speaker 7: could be dangerous. And I thought you just drank too
Speaker 7: much that night, and I passed it off. And I
Speaker 7: feel her there now helping me, trying to say the
Speaker 7: right thing, and I said stop. And at one point
Speaker 7: he hits this vein on my head and the blood
Speaker 7: goes escorts on this huge windshield and it goes from
Speaker 7: one side to the other like a rainbow, and it
Speaker 7: just dripping down and I said, please stop. Stop. We'll
Speaker 7: say we got in an accident. And he stops, and
Speaker 7: I said, we'll say that we skid it off the
Speaker 7: road and you went to the farmhouse over there to
Speaker 7: get help and a car hit us, and that's how
Speaker 7: I got so hurt, he said. Then he says, okay,
Speaker 7: because I think he had just had it. I don't know,
Speaker 7: and so he climbs over me. He helps move me
Speaker 7: to the passenger seat, and I still got this tool
Speaker 7: whatever it is, under my arm, and he didn't pay
Speaker 7: any attention to it. He just moved me over and
Speaker 7: I said, please get me to the emergency room. I'm
Speaker 7: dying and he said you're not dying. I said, please
Speaker 7: get me there. So he had me rehearse on the
Speaker 7: way there to the hospital. He's actually taking me to
Speaker 7: the hospital and the I've still got the tool and
Speaker 7: he said, throw that out of the window. So I
Speaker 7: opened the window and instead I just let it slip
Speaker 7: right down the side of me and held on to it, thinking,
Speaker 7: you know nothing else, I'll fall out of the car.
Speaker 7: I'll open the car and fall out, you know, And
Speaker 7: we we pull up actually, and you know, I'm still
Speaker 7: thinking there's no way, there's no way we're gonna we're
Speaker 7: gonna go, and he's not gonna take me there, but
Speaker 7: he's taking me there, and so we promptly. I said,
Speaker 7: I can't, I can't talk anymore. My mouth hurts so much.
Speaker 7: I can't I know what I'm gonna say. And then
Speaker 7: first when you pulled up to the emergency room, the
Speaker 7: policeman comes and then he sees me and he starts
Speaker 7: screaming to people to get you know, the stretcher and
Speaker 7: that kind of thing. And then he goes and he's
Speaker 7: talking to my husband and I have no idea what
Speaker 7: he's saying to him. And and then the person opens
Speaker 7: the door and gets gets me ready and I'm holding
Speaker 7: onto this thing in my arm and he said, whoa.
Speaker 7: He said, that's the biggest commercial pipe wrench I've ever seen.
Speaker 7: So that's what it was. It was a commercial that
Speaker 7: he had probably taken from the hospital to clinic whatever.
Speaker 7: And then you know, I go. They take me into
Speaker 7: the thing and I'm still able to give my parents'
Speaker 7: names and numbers and that kind of thing and tell
Speaker 7: them just to tell the children we were in a
Speaker 7: car accident, but we're okay. And then I remember them
Speaker 7: cutting my clothes off there, you know, and the lady said, oh,
Speaker 7: my goodness, this is your rah so beautiful, and I said, yeah,
Speaker 7: it's brand new. He just bought it for me. He
Speaker 7: bought me. Oh, he never buys me anything. And he
Speaker 7: bought me a a brand new coat with the fur collar,
Speaker 7: and my suit and everything. And I was dressed in
Speaker 7: all of that and they're cutting it off and apologizing,
Speaker 7: and I'm getting sick, and they said, she's hurry up,
Speaker 7: get a pan, she's gonna vomit. So then I've I'm
Speaker 7: starting to vomit, and then I lose it a little
Speaker 7: bit until I get into the operating room. And when
Speaker 7: I get there, I'm not even sure i'm there. I
Speaker 7: just know that my mouth is so full of blood.
Speaker 7: And that's when it goes on to my asking for
Speaker 7: a priest, and that's when I die, uh on the
Speaker 7: operating table. And I did not know that I died
Speaker 7: on the operating table for many days. And the only
Speaker 7: reason I found that out was by accident. One of
Speaker 7: our friends is the doctor, and and a lot of
Speaker 7: them were and and he it was you know, like
Speaker 7: nine o'clock at night. He had come to see me
Speaker 7: and I could see him. Then it was like, I
Speaker 7: don't know, eight days somewhere around there, and he is drunk,
Speaker 7: and he's got a tuxedo on and his ties crooked,
Speaker 7: and he said, hi, babe, and he said, I just
Speaker 7: didn't have the nerve to come and see you. And
Speaker 7: so he so he's he's he's sitting with me, holding
Speaker 7: my hand, and incomes of somebody else and he said, Hi,
Speaker 7: you don't recognize me, and I said no. He said,
Speaker 7: I'm the Anasty's theologist and he said I he said, Mac.
Speaker 7: He said, there's no reason for this gal to be here.
Speaker 7: He said, it's the second time in my career. I
Speaker 7: had to go home, he said, And I've been at
Speaker 7: this a long time, you know that, Mac, And he said.
Speaker 7: He said, we're operating on her, and she's telling us
Speaker 7: Polish jokes, and he says, and then then she goes unconscious,
Speaker 7: and then she comes back and tells us another Polish joke,
Speaker 7: because she's Polish and she hears all of the jokes.
Speaker 7: And he said, we're just looking at each other and
Speaker 7: we're trying to peace what we can you know back
Speaker 7: and and he said, I lost her. He said, I
Speaker 7: lost her, Mac, And he said, I want you to know,
Speaker 7: and Mac, you remember to remind her that her blood
Speaker 7: pressure And he said. Years will pass by and different
Speaker 7: things will happen, but you remember this because in all
Speaker 7: my life, this never happened. He said. When my blood
Speaker 7: pressure drips dropped, it went out and he said, we
Speaker 7: had a hard time getting it back. It didn't went
Speaker 7: from normal, and he said, we couldn't believe it's staying
Speaker 7: at normal. And he said, and then it was gone.
Speaker 7: And he said, I want you to know that so
Speaker 7: that when you have other surgeries or anything in your life,
Speaker 7: you will be able to tell them that this is
Speaker 7: something they need to look out for. And so I
Speaker 7: remembered that, and that's how I found out that I
Speaker 7: died on the operating table. And true what he said,
Speaker 7: three different times that happened to me after I had anesthesia.
Speaker 7: So uh, he knew that no matter how much it's
Speaker 7: all the new technology, and that it was still you know,
Speaker 7: it happened three times and too minor, two minor surgery
Speaker 7: and one major. My blood pressure dropped drastically low but
Speaker 7: came right back up. That's the thing. And they never
Speaker 7: had to do anything, although one time they did get
Speaker 7: the crash cart, but it just went back up like
Speaker 7: it never happened.
Speaker 6: You talked about this, he reached out to pardon you
Speaker 6: talk about you reached out to Lucy when you were
Speaker 6: being attacked, or not reached out to Lucy, but you
Speaker 6: mentioned reference Lucy. You said to him, listening, Lucy knows what. Yes,
Speaker 6: Lucy's the his.
Speaker 7: His nurse, babysitter, our baby sitter, and and my husband's
Speaker 7: old reception nurse. He when he moved from one hospital
Speaker 7: to another. He loved her. She was very old, she
Speaker 7: couldn't get another job, so he had them hire her
Speaker 7: as part of them hiring him.
Speaker 6: When you were attacked, you mentioned her name. You referenced
Speaker 6: her name and said, listen, Lucy knows about this murder plot.
Speaker 6: Lucy knows you didn't. You just said that to him,
Speaker 6: but you can well talk.
Speaker 7: There was you know, I had touch base with Lucy
Speaker 7: a couple times on the phone, saying, Lucy, you know
Speaker 7: what's going on, don't you know? Over there with him
Speaker 7: and you know, and this woman, And she said, I
Speaker 7: can't say anything. I can't say anything, but there was
Speaker 7: another incident that happened. There are several things, but Lucy,
Speaker 7: Lucy knew that this affair was going on, and there
Speaker 7: was another incident. Do I have time?
Speaker 6: Well, all I wanted you to tell the incident is fine.
Speaker 6: But what I wanted to mention was that it seemed
Speaker 6: to be in this from reading this, is that your
Speaker 6: references to Lucy knowing about this may have prevented him
Speaker 6: from doing more damage to you. Yeah, because he did
Speaker 6: respect this woman. And you said, listen, Lucy knows what
Speaker 6: you're doing, what you're doing, the plan to kill me,
Speaker 6: and he said, no, she doesn't. She doesn't know any
Speaker 6: of this. So I think it was one of the
Speaker 6: more vivid moments in this attack that somehow or other
Speaker 6: that respect for that woman and you knew that instinctfully,
Speaker 6: that you just said that to him. Was the latic
Speaker 6: part of me.
Speaker 7: Mentioned it before too. Other things, you know, Lucy knows them,
Speaker 7: and she would just you know, like always say what
Speaker 7: can I say? Her job is hanging, you know there,
Speaker 7: And but maybe that's why he stopped because it had
Speaker 7: gone too far and I don't know, and Lucy, Lucy
Speaker 7: would have to say what I my suspicions were all along.
Speaker 6: Did yes, what you have in this book as well
Speaker 6: that I mentioned that while you're recovering, Bob calls you,
Speaker 6: and Bob says, listen, I have this hypoglocemia again, this disease,
Speaker 6: he called it, this thing that he just found out
Speaker 6: he had. Apparently this caused him to kill you, try
Speaker 6: to kill you, want to kill you, attempt to kill you. Now,
Speaker 6: what is the this is His lawyer says he won't
Speaker 6: take the case unless he goes to psychiatric evaluation and
Speaker 6: within a short period of time ten days, he's out.
Speaker 6: He gets to visit with your children while you're still
Speaker 6: in the hospital. Yes, So what happens from this You
Speaker 6: finally talked to Chuck people finally, because even when you're
Speaker 6: being attacked, you're saying you're sick. I'm going to cover
Speaker 6: for you. So it's incredible that you still care for
Speaker 6: this person and trust this person. Unbelievably, now that you
Speaker 6: have this realization when you're in the hospital, that's enough.
Speaker 6: I've heard enough. I cannot love this person enough to
Speaker 6: continue with him. But he has this defense for this
Speaker 6: horrendous attack on you. What happens from those charges from
Speaker 6: that investigation from what the police know has been done
Speaker 6: to you, what happens as a result.
Speaker 7: I'm The attorneys got together and they even talked to
Speaker 7: the psychiatrist, the head of the head of psychiatry and that,
Speaker 7: and he felt that I am no longer in any danger.
Speaker 7: That it's over. He's lost. He wanted He did this
Speaker 7: because not he hated me, but because he wanted to
Speaker 7: keep the kennel and the kids and all of that.
Speaker 7: He wanted to have all of that. He didn't want
Speaker 7: to lose this, this this kennel that we designed, and
Speaker 7: that that meant more to him than anything. And he's
Speaker 7: you know, he was going to lose it. And the
Speaker 7: attorneys said, for once, you know, let us think about
Speaker 7: this Nina and what she's going to face. Uh, with
Speaker 7: four children, we have no I mean, he's no matter
Speaker 7: what kind of disease he has, because uh, we we
Speaker 7: have grounds to put him in jail. Now, what are
Speaker 7: we what are we doing for the kids If we
Speaker 7: do this, They're going to have a father in jail
Speaker 7: and no income. And what is it safe for them
Speaker 7: for their life? You know? What? Or where is their father?
Speaker 7: What does he do? He's in jail, he's lost the
Speaker 7: things that he really wants. Now, let's see if we
Speaker 7: can and we do. I we owned a couple apartment
Speaker 7: houses that we had just purchased that were highly highly
Speaker 7: in debt, uh cause we just got them. And that
Speaker 7: he said, let's see if this this excuse the hypoglycemia.
Speaker 7: Nancy Nina, Nancy Nina and her f and her friend
Speaker 7: Nancy that she talked to Ed said, you know, what,
Speaker 7: what do we have? What what should we do? What
Speaker 7: do you think? And so the atturney got together and
Speaker 7: they said, you've got to go to the grand jury
Speaker 7: and you tell you tell what you know? You never lie?
Speaker 7: Had he ever done this before? No? Is the answer,
Speaker 7: And if they go further than that, you have to
Speaker 7: answer honestly. If that's as far as they go. We're
Speaker 7: trying to work out a deal with Bob and the
Speaker 7: two of us are trying to look out for you
Speaker 7: that we will say that this happened. Because of this,
Speaker 7: he will continue to work and keep his license as
Speaker 7: a therapist, and he will then he will give child
Speaker 7: support to you. If we put him in jail, we
Speaker 7: can put him in there for a long time because
Speaker 7: we can pull out some other things and that, but
Speaker 7: looking after you. After you, he can have her if
Speaker 7: he wants her, you know. But this is the gamble
Speaker 7: that you take, that we're all taking. And so I
Speaker 7: had to go to the grand jury and I did
Speaker 7: not lie. That's the only question they asked me. Had
Speaker 7: he ever done anything like that before?
Speaker 8: No?
Speaker 7: So that then he will not be he will not
Speaker 7: lose his license for attempted murder or murder, and children
Speaker 7: will get child support. I will get all the properties.
Speaker 7: And that's what happened. He got married a month after
Speaker 7: we got divorced to her. He slept on the sofa
Speaker 7: for seven of the ten years I think that they
Speaker 7: were married. He passed away some time ago.
Speaker 6: So aren't very interesting, very interesting in this arrangement that
Speaker 6: you have because.
Speaker 7: I've yes happened nowadays?
Speaker 6: Why do you say that?
Speaker 7: Well, just because I think you know, they would just immediately,
Speaker 7: you know, go for the thing. They wouldn't be out
Speaker 7: the attorneys protecting a person that was so wounded and everything,
Speaker 7: trying to make sure that she had a way to
Speaker 7: support her family and taking the risk, the risk that
Speaker 7: he's loose. And do you think I wasn't frightened? For
Speaker 7: two years for two years. If anyone touched me when
Speaker 7: I was at the kennel, or a noise or anything happened,
Speaker 7: I would faint, Yes, I would just faint and t
Speaker 7: embarrassing that it would happen. And my groomor was constantly
Speaker 7: getting me up and walking me to our home which
Speaker 7: was close by you.
Speaker 6: You write about this decision that the court talked you
Speaker 6: into in retrospect, you you would have a different if
Speaker 6: if it were today, You say, it would be different nothing, But.
Speaker 8: I don't know.
Speaker 7: I don't know that anybody would you get at all?
Speaker 7: This is what people tell me, you know, I mean
Speaker 7: the court. No, the court did their job, and I
Speaker 7: did my and I answered honestly. They told me if
Speaker 7: they asked more than I would have to give him
Speaker 7: the rest of the and then this deal could not work.
Speaker 6: Was this a deal?
Speaker 7: Would not they would? You know? They would be he
Speaker 7: would be you know, put in jail and tried.
Speaker 6: Of course, is this a deal you were totally comfortable with?
Speaker 6: Though you don't really, I mean, how comfortable were you
Speaker 6: with this? Of course you get the explanation, but at
Speaker 6: some point you realize he tried to kill you. And
Speaker 6: then you write, and he did a psychiatrist that the
Speaker 6: psychiatrist that that said, okay, he's hypoglycemic.
Speaker 7: Yeah, he never knew the other attempts that that Bob
Speaker 7: had made on me. The psychiatrist didn't and I didn't
Speaker 7: know that you know until you know, just would till
Speaker 7: the until we start getting into it with the attorneys
Speaker 7: and everything that they did not he didn't the psychiatrist
Speaker 7: didn't know the other attempts and they really weren't attempt
Speaker 7: Like there was a lake incident that and we never
Speaker 7: talked about that, but nothing came of it. And that
Speaker 7: had made other attempts but nothing came of it. Had
Speaker 7: that been brought out, then.
Speaker 6: Well those are those are ones that might police might say, well,
Speaker 6: they're interesting, but you could have never brought up that,
Speaker 6: I believe in court as a proof of anything, regardless
Speaker 6: of whether. But at the same time, though, the thing
Speaker 6: that would have been much different and many years ago
Speaker 6: even would have been this obvious motive. He gets married
Speaker 6: to this woman, he maintains his relationship with this woman.
Speaker 6: You know, this woman and this man, this man would
Speaker 6: not be the first man that a prosecutor would use,
Speaker 6: would put out the motive possible that this person wanted
Speaker 6: to get rid of his wife, avoid a divorce, and
Speaker 6: carry on with his new life. That's I think what
Speaker 6: a prosecutor would seriously contemplate in this case, given all
Speaker 6: the information.
Speaker 7: Don't you think I don't know if this is the
Speaker 7: way it worked. And I lived in fear for a
Speaker 7: long time. You know was It was what they thought
Speaker 7: was the most practical thing to keep a family alive.
Speaker 6: And you've obviously thrived. You've obviously thrived from this, Pa,
Speaker 6: we do.
Speaker 7: No, we didn't thrive. I had to sell everything. I
Speaker 7: was single for twenty one years. I worked at one
Speaker 7: point for foreign a half years. I worked seventy hours
Speaker 7: a week a week until I went into shock. Everything
Speaker 7: was highly mortgaged. Nothing had any kind of value to it.
Speaker 7: But they got they got child support, and he lied
Speaker 7: about that. My accounting firm discovered it, and he came
Speaker 7: up with a few thousand dollars. So I did not thrive.
Speaker 7: I did not drive. My children say the real book
Speaker 7: is the next one. Mom. When I cleaned, when I
Speaker 7: was grooming, doing dog rooming, dressmaking, working at a factory
Speaker 7: for alcohola and cleaning house for my best friend. My
Speaker 7: best friend, and nobody knew, which nobody was told. We'd
Speaker 7: be sitting playing cards with my girlfriends and her and
Speaker 7: she'd say, oh, you have a new housekeeper, and she
Speaker 7: would just say yes. And that went on for five years.
Speaker 7: I cleaned her house and nobody knew it, and then
Speaker 7: I came back that day and played cards with them.
Speaker 7: I had it so really rough, and you can ask
Speaker 7: any of my children that it was really difficult, and
Speaker 7: yet they were raised with it's going to be grade school,
Speaker 7: high school, college, that's it. And everybody got through, and
Speaker 7: everybody had loans.
Speaker 6: So you did. It didn't crush you, pardon didn't get it.
Speaker 6: Didn't just didn't crush you.
Speaker 7: It didn't crush me. It was difficult. It was more
Speaker 7: than difficult. It was scary. It was scary. And the
Speaker 7: only thing that still stays with me is is I
Speaker 7: get frightened if something happens behind me, but I don't
Speaker 7: wet my pants anymore. But that happened for almost two years.
Speaker 6: Yes, you recovered your life enough to write this book.
Speaker 6: I know this is a cliche question, but how important
Speaker 6: was it for you to complete this book, to write
Speaker 6: this book and now have this book finally released?
Speaker 7: I wrote it thirty years ago. And I never changed
Speaker 7: it the order of it. We just changed the wording
Speaker 7: here and there to make it more legible. It was
Speaker 7: important to me that I survived it, and and I
Speaker 7: look at what I accomplished, and I see four wonderful
Speaker 7: human beings right that I got to raise.
Speaker 6: What is there? What is their attitude towards this? I
Speaker 6: know that they were protected. You say the boys were
Speaker 6: younger than the girls. The boys didn't have any idea,
Speaker 6: and the girls knew a little bit more. Of course,
Speaker 6: you tried to keep everything as an accident and try
Speaker 6: to protect them from this terrible event. But obviously they
Speaker 6: grew up. Obviously they watched the news. Even the girls
Speaker 6: saw the news. If and the boys did see their father,
Speaker 6: what is there? What is their attitude?
Speaker 7: The of course it was on the paper, it was
Speaker 7: in on television, it was on everything. And the girls
Speaker 7: one just eleven eleven nine, let's see you No. Five seven,
Speaker 7: nine eleven. But the oldest girl knows, you know, I mean,
Speaker 7: they all knew. The boys knew something, but their babies,
Speaker 7: you know, their babies. But over the years, there's no
Speaker 7: hiding it. There was no hiding what happened, and little
Speaker 7: by little, of course, I had to sell off the
Speaker 7: properties and that was mainage. Managed to keep this and
Speaker 7: in the summertime when the children were got good jobs
Speaker 7: at a factory to help, you know, with their schooling
Speaker 7: and everything. They even gave me money to make sure
Speaker 7: I didn't lose the house. I lost everything else I
Speaker 7: didn't lose it. I sold it but didn't make any money.
Speaker 7: Everything was heavily mortgaged. Yes, And now you know the boys,
Speaker 7: the boys have still one of them, you know, was
Speaker 7: with his dad not long before he passed away. He
Speaker 7: was already an Adulton's out of school college. And do
Speaker 7: they love him? The boys I think still love him.
Speaker 7: One likes him but doesn't love him. The other when
Speaker 7: the old the older boy loves his dad, got to
Speaker 7: watch some football games with him, and that one went
Speaker 7: and spent the summer with him, and it came home early.
Speaker 7: The girls have nothing for him, or to have very
Speaker 7: little love for him. I I still love part of
Speaker 7: him and think, how how can you do this? Still,
Speaker 7: you know, how could you do this? How could you
Speaker 7: do this to me? I still question it and still
Speaker 7: wonder at times, you know, what could I have done?
Speaker 7: What could I have done to change the scenario.
Speaker 6: What about the hypoglycemia for people listening, I.
Speaker 7: Mean, I have it's a sugar imbalance or something like that,
Speaker 7: but it's supposed to be the opposite of sugar diabetis
Speaker 7: you were.
Speaker 6: But you were convinced that this was serious enough to
Speaker 6: mitigate the idea that he murdered you intentionally, that somehow
Speaker 6: he was sick. He was it's a disease, and that
Speaker 6: the disease actually created this, despite what you know about
Speaker 6: the affair, despite you know about the difference in his behavior.
Speaker 6: I know you were convinced of that, But how convinced
Speaker 6: are you that it was the disease and not just
Speaker 6: a change in this person? And I know it's something
Speaker 6: hard to contemplate.
Speaker 7: No, I knew he did it purposely, and I just
Speaker 7: think it got to be too much and he woke
Speaker 7: up like and said he can't go any further the
Speaker 7: day he did that.
Speaker 6: In what way he couldn't go any further?
Speaker 7: You mean I couldn't. He couldn't keep beating me. I
Speaker 7: don't know why. I don't know why. I don't have
Speaker 7: that answer. Why he didn't just finished the job right there?
Speaker 7: Maybe because of what I'm yelling at him the net.
Speaker 7: Maybe he just realized.
Speaker 6: It's incredible. It's incredible, the incredible, the love you had
Speaker 6: for this man though. It's so admirable, how much you
Speaker 6: would stand behind this person after all of this, and
Speaker 6: even pick up the phone and listen to this person
Speaker 6: when you were sitting near death in a hospital or
Speaker 6: just recovered from near death experience. It's I think a
Speaker 6: testament of his ability to convince you. I hate to
Speaker 6: say this as much of a con but you know
Speaker 6: he was calling immediately telling you, professing the love, wanting
Speaker 6: to keep the marriage together, and then you find out no,
Speaker 6: he's still continuing in the first blatant, outright lies, and
Speaker 6: yet he had the ability to still have that little
Speaker 6: bit of charm that you fell in love with a
Speaker 6: long time ago.
Speaker 7: I don't know that it was the charm. I think
Speaker 7: it was the trying to keep everything together, our dream
Speaker 7: of building the kennel, and the children, the children. I
Speaker 7: just didn't want them c caught in in in this.
Speaker 7: I didn't I didn't want I didn't want to ruin
Speaker 7: our family, our family. It just meant everything to me,
Speaker 7: thinking I would never have one and had a beautiful one, yes,
Speaker 7: and I don't know. Uh I would. I would probably
Speaker 7: take a bunch of psychiatrists to figure this whole thing out.
Speaker 7: And yet there's still, like I said, some part of
Speaker 7: me that says, I wish I knew the magic t
Speaker 7: to to make it work, to see did I do something?
Speaker 7: Are you doing something? No, it just happened somebody. It
Speaker 7: just that he couldn't let go of the possessions and
Speaker 7: that's why. So yeah, I didn't think about how we
Speaker 7: were going to separate it. The attorneys did and they
Speaker 7: informed me, and I said, it's okay, you know, this
Speaker 7: is what we're going to do. My head still was not,
Speaker 7: was not, you know, thinking what should we do? What
Speaker 7: shouldn't we do? They said, look at this is what
Speaker 7: we're thinking about. What do you think? Yeah, okay, I
Speaker 7: have the properties, I can sell them. I have something something. Yet,
Speaker 7: because somehow we have to live, I gave up my career.
Speaker 7: I'm I can't go back to it now.
Speaker 6: Yeah, absolutely, you did what was best. That's very, very,
Speaker 6: very admirable. I want to I think it's interesting too,
Speaker 6: when we go back to your graduation gift in the
Speaker 6: palm reading, when the Mary said, if you have a
Speaker 6: long life. I mean, if you live, you will have
Speaker 6: a long life. So I guess she was right about
Speaker 6: a lot of things. Yes she was done.
Speaker 7: Yes she was. I have had a long li you know,
Speaker 7: I've had a long life. I'm very lucky. And Mary
Speaker 7: was very right. She was very right that if I live,
Speaker 7: I live a long time. And I've lived a long time.
Speaker 7: And I had a good life. You know, I was
Speaker 7: single twenty one years and then got married and was
Speaker 7: married twenty two years.
Speaker 6: So nice.
Speaker 7: And I you know, I had a hard life. I
Speaker 7: had a hard life. And my children they know what
Speaker 7: it is to work. They know the word board. They
Speaker 7: would never ever use the word to be bored because
Speaker 7: they would have so many projects. They never use it again.
Speaker 7: I hear children nowadays talking about being bored. Well, and
Speaker 7: they all look at it, might look at each other
Speaker 7: and they say, I'm not in this house.
Speaker 6: Yeah.
Speaker 7: They all they all had responsibilities and they're good, ye,
Speaker 7: good decent human beings and well educated. I'm very proud
Speaker 7: of that. And I'm proud that the girls didn't give
Speaker 7: up their their education, you know, like I did. I
Speaker 7: gave up mine with the belief that you know, this
Speaker 7: was going to happen. I got the top job in
Speaker 7: the class, and Marshall Fields wanted me to be a buyer.
Speaker 7: And at that time, all their buyers were from Princeton
Speaker 7: and Yale. And when they were talking to me to
Speaker 7: be a buyer, they kept saying, do you know what
Speaker 7: you're passing up? Of course not. I'm getting married and this.
Speaker 7: How can you know? You can't look in the future.
Speaker 7: You know, I knew that. You know that everyone was
Speaker 7: telling me that this is that offer to just anybody.
Speaker 7: Look at all these people that are their buyers. You know,
Speaker 7: they come from a lot higher higher schooling than I had.
Speaker 7: And you're being offered this often. Are you sure you
Speaker 7: want to give it up? No, at that time to.
Speaker 6: Give it up. You did give it up for the
Speaker 6: dream and we're going.
Speaker 7: To get finishes and then we were going to start online.
Speaker 6: Yeah. I want to thank you, Nancy. I want to
Speaker 6: thank you Nancy for coming on and talking about Maybe
Speaker 6: You Die, the true story of a couple living the
Speaker 6: all American nightmare. Thank you so much for sharing this
Speaker 6: very personal story. I know it's hard to go back
Speaker 6: and talk of the attack and this entire thing, but
Speaker 6: I want to thank you for sharing this story of
Speaker 6: Maybe You Die, the true story of a couple living
Speaker 6: the All American nightmare. I know for people that might
Speaker 6: want to look, it's on Amazon, this book, but it's
Speaker 6: also on Apple Books, so people can look for that there.
Speaker 6: I want to thank you very much, Nancy for this interview.
Speaker 6: I want to thank you very much and you have
Speaker 6: a great evening.
Speaker 7: Thank you for having me
Speaker 6: Thank you, good night, good night.