WEBVTT 1 00:00:52.920 --> 00:01:03.039 Yeah, oh what under little Briss's ouse, leader, rational self 2 00:01:03.119 --> 00:01:06.200 interest and individual ones. 3 00:01:09.120 --> 00:01:17.159 This is the Ran Brook Show, all right, everybody, welcome 4 00:01:17.200 --> 00:01:21.359 to here on Brook Show on this Monday, Sober twenty second. 5 00:01:21.560 --> 00:01:26.840 Pretty first, skipping ahead already second show today, and I'm 6 00:01:26.879 --> 00:01:32.959 really delighted to have with me today. Robert Mayhew rob It, 7 00:01:33.599 --> 00:01:35.000 for those of you who don't know who he is, 8 00:01:35.359 --> 00:01:39.239 is a professor philosophy at Seaton Hall University. He's been 9 00:01:39.599 --> 00:01:44.239 teaching there for over twenty years. Over thirty years. I've 10 00:01:44.280 --> 00:01:49.719 got an old bio. Doctor Maye's primary research interest is 11 00:01:49.959 --> 00:01:55.480 ancient philosophy, but he also has a serious scholarly interest 12 00:01:55.519 --> 00:01:58.319 in Ironrand and has done a lot of work related 13 00:01:58.799 --> 00:02:02.680 to iron Rand, from authoring books and editing, collection of 14 00:02:02.840 --> 00:02:08.520 essays and writing and speaking and doing talks regular talks 15 00:02:08.599 --> 00:02:15.639 at OCONN about irand Doctor Mehue also serves on the 16 00:02:15.719 --> 00:02:18.840 board of the Ironman Institute and the Anti Foundation for 17 00:02:18.840 --> 00:02:22.919 Objective Scholarship. Welcome, thanks for joining me. 18 00:02:23.560 --> 00:02:25.599 Great to be here. This is my first time and 19 00:02:25.800 --> 00:02:27.919 you had wondered about that on your earlier show. And 20 00:02:28.439 --> 00:02:32.400 yeah it's we been on panels a lot and all 21 00:02:32.520 --> 00:02:33.360 kinds of other stuff. 22 00:02:33.840 --> 00:02:38.159 Yes, so let's let's start with your interest in ancient philosophy. 23 00:02:38.199 --> 00:02:39.840 Maybe tell us a little bit how you got into 24 00:02:41.400 --> 00:02:43.599 ancient philosophy. What was the kind of the path that 25 00:02:43.879 --> 00:02:44.840 led you in that direction. 26 00:02:45.680 --> 00:02:48.960 Sure, it actually connects, I think to interest, you know, 27 00:02:49.599 --> 00:02:51.039 things that would interest your audience. 28 00:02:51.560 --> 00:02:51.919 I was. 29 00:02:53.560 --> 00:02:57.960 I thought philosophy was political philosophy when I was getting 30 00:02:58.000 --> 00:03:02.919 interested in ideas and reading iin Rand and or at 31 00:03:03.000 --> 00:03:07.360 least starting to. And so I was thinking, when it 32 00:03:07.439 --> 00:03:11.479 came time for my PhD, I would work on Hobbes 33 00:03:11.520 --> 00:03:14.240 and Locke and the Founding Fathers and try to show 34 00:03:14.240 --> 00:03:16.800 that Locke is very different from Hobbes and things like that. 35 00:03:17.879 --> 00:03:20.680 And then I was reading reading Atlas Shrugg for the 36 00:03:20.759 --> 00:03:24.520 second time, and I mean I had noticed the references 37 00:03:24.639 --> 00:03:29.919 to Aristotle before, but hadn't really done anything with the information. Okay, Aristotle, 38 00:03:30.120 --> 00:03:32.520 and then but this time it really caught Why is 39 00:03:32.639 --> 00:03:36.639 Aristotle the greatest of your philosophers? And why does she 40 00:03:36.800 --> 00:03:40.319 have a character reading this obscure you that this stuff 41 00:03:40.960 --> 00:03:46.120 from Aristotle's metaphysics in the Valley? And I thought, I 42 00:03:46.240 --> 00:03:48.680 want to look into this. Why Aristotle? You know, I'm thinking, 43 00:03:48.800 --> 00:03:51.360 you know what he's I don't think he's a champion 44 00:03:51.439 --> 00:03:54.680 of capitalism. And so I went to the very beginning 45 00:03:54.879 --> 00:03:59.479 of the complete works of Aristotle and it was the 46 00:03:59.560 --> 00:04:03.800 category worries, and it's you know it it. I couldn't 47 00:04:03.840 --> 00:04:07.360 see the value in it at all, but I but 48 00:04:07.479 --> 00:04:10.840 I became fascinated with that. And while doing that, I 49 00:04:10.960 --> 00:04:13.800 got really into not just Aristotle, but ancient Greek culture, 50 00:04:14.719 --> 00:04:16.839 and I kind of made it a mission to find 51 00:04:16.879 --> 00:04:21.720 out what was valuable in Aristotle. I started taking courses 52 00:04:21.800 --> 00:04:23.639 in ancient Greek because I knew if I wanted to 53 00:04:23.720 --> 00:04:28.959 make this my specialty, I needed, you know, to read 54 00:04:29.120 --> 00:04:31.560 the text in the original. And so that's how I 55 00:04:31.680 --> 00:04:35.759 got into it. And by the time I was, you know, 56 00:04:37.000 --> 00:04:42.839 really serious about doing graduate work, I I that was 57 00:04:42.879 --> 00:04:44.560 the field I wanted. And you know, I wrote my 58 00:04:44.600 --> 00:04:49.439 dissertation on Aristotle's politics, his his uh criticisms of of 59 00:04:49.519 --> 00:04:52.639 Plato's Republic, and that was that was that. 60 00:04:52.959 --> 00:04:56.639 So I was hooked. So so what what made you 61 00:04:57.160 --> 00:04:59.519 make that switch? That is what what took you from 62 00:05:01.120 --> 00:05:06.000 you know, the irrelevance of categories and metaphysics to no, 63 00:05:06.279 --> 00:05:08.199 I get it. This is amazing. 64 00:05:09.040 --> 00:05:13.360 I wish I remembered it, but it wasn't. It was 65 00:05:13.519 --> 00:05:16.399 just something about the breadth and the depth of his 66 00:05:16.600 --> 00:05:20.480 thought and trying to connect it to what Ainran said 67 00:05:20.600 --> 00:05:24.120 was valuable about him, because she it's very terse remarks, 68 00:05:24.160 --> 00:05:29.360 you know, the objective reality and sorry, the efficacy of 69 00:05:30.040 --> 00:05:33.439 the mind, and you don't really see that in those terms. 70 00:05:33.480 --> 00:05:36.439 I mean, she saw it in Arisotoa. She knew the 71 00:05:36.600 --> 00:05:41.639 history of his influence on Western culture. But I just 72 00:05:42.959 --> 00:05:48.680 became very interested in him generally, and then his critique 73 00:05:48.720 --> 00:05:54.120 of Plato, his criticisms of the forms of the communism 74 00:05:54.199 --> 00:05:55.839 of the Republic and all of that. And then I 75 00:05:56.000 --> 00:05:59.720 kind of I had this same interest in political philosophy 76 00:06:00.240 --> 00:06:03.000 that that really grew out of kind of my interest 77 00:06:03.120 --> 00:06:09.759 in reading dystopia novels and you know, anti communy, you know, Soviets, 78 00:06:10.199 --> 00:06:12.480 you know, criticism of the Soviet Union, and that com 79 00:06:12.560 --> 00:06:15.399 me into politics and and so it they kind of merged, 80 00:06:15.439 --> 00:06:20.120 and I started doing work on Ariosotle's politics, and but 81 00:06:20.199 --> 00:06:22.639 I wish there wasn't this aha moment. It was kind 82 00:06:22.680 --> 00:06:25.360 of just trying to figure out why would I Ran, 83 00:06:25.839 --> 00:06:29.600 you know, you know, recognize him. Then when I started 84 00:06:29.600 --> 00:06:31.680 to read the non fiction and she refers to him 85 00:06:32.120 --> 00:06:34.399 in for who, you know, for the new intellectual and 86 00:06:35.240 --> 00:06:37.879 you know he is the founder of you know, everything. 87 00:06:37.959 --> 00:06:40.240 And then she has that one line about everything we 88 00:06:40.360 --> 00:06:45.399 you know, our language, you know, progress, industry, it all, 89 00:06:45.920 --> 00:06:48.439 you know, the founding of America. She she laid on 90 00:06:48.600 --> 00:06:52.319 his shoulder, put on his shoulders, and that I found, 91 00:06:53.560 --> 00:06:55.759 it's kind of bizarre. It can't be right. And yet 92 00:06:55.879 --> 00:07:00.240 you know, so I really dug into that, and uh, yeah, 93 00:07:00.240 --> 00:07:02.240 that that kept me going for a long time, not 94 00:07:02.439 --> 00:07:05.600 just through through the pH d. But if you remember 95 00:07:05.680 --> 00:07:09.720 long ago when you when you organized conferences, you had one, 96 00:07:09.839 --> 00:07:13.920 that wonderful one in Italy, and and uh that's where 97 00:07:13.920 --> 00:07:16.519 I gave the lectures on I gave a pair of 98 00:07:16.639 --> 00:07:20.639 lectures Aristotle and the and the Renaissance, because I you 99 00:07:20.680 --> 00:07:22.800 know what she said that, you know, he made the 100 00:07:22.839 --> 00:07:27.199 Renaissance possible, you know, was against everything that you read, 101 00:07:27.240 --> 00:07:31.480 you know, you hear in in courses in medieval philosophy 102 00:07:31.560 --> 00:07:35.720 and in into the modern era. And I wanted to 103 00:07:35.800 --> 00:07:39.680 look into that. Yeah, I think they I think they 104 00:07:39.759 --> 00:07:43.199 exist somewhere. Someone at the time said you should write 105 00:07:43.240 --> 00:07:44.879 this into a popular you know, you should write a 106 00:07:44.879 --> 00:07:47.720 bokular book. I said, no, no, you know, I'm a scholar, 107 00:07:47.759 --> 00:07:50.040 and no one would would buy it anyway. And then 108 00:07:50.079 --> 00:07:53.120 I think two years later, Aristotle's Children came out and 109 00:07:53.199 --> 00:07:56.680 made millions. You know, it's all about timing. 110 00:07:56.800 --> 00:08:03.040 So so so was gonna ask, to what extent is 111 00:08:03.360 --> 00:08:10.160 it recognized in academia or among scholars that Aristota plays 112 00:08:10.199 --> 00:08:12.439 this role in the West. I mean, we've got Aristotle's children, 113 00:08:12.480 --> 00:08:16.079 We've got Caven the light right it was? I mean, 114 00:08:16.279 --> 00:08:20.279 but to what extent is that view unique time vand 115 00:08:20.399 --> 00:08:25.040 or is it becoming more acceptable within kind of uh philosophy, 116 00:08:25.199 --> 00:08:26.240 the history of philosophy. 117 00:08:26.920 --> 00:08:29.600 I think it's becoming more acceptable, But I think the 118 00:08:29.680 --> 00:08:32.679 way people interpret it is that the story is messier 119 00:08:32.840 --> 00:08:36.960 than you know, anyone you know statement can make. So 120 00:08:37.320 --> 00:08:40.799 when I was in graduate school, the line, the standard 121 00:08:40.840 --> 00:08:43.519 line was Aristotle was the philosopher of the Middle Ages 122 00:08:44.320 --> 00:08:48.759 and Plato was the philosopher of the Renaissance. And what 123 00:08:48.919 --> 00:08:51.480 they had in mind was that when Aristotle's works were 124 00:08:51.519 --> 00:08:55.200 rediscovered and reintroduced into the Latin West, I mean, they 125 00:08:55.600 --> 00:09:01.440 were immediately regarded as important, although they were also censored 126 00:09:01.480 --> 00:09:04.159 and put on lists. And you know, the Church was 127 00:09:04.960 --> 00:09:07.799 keeping an eye on that on it because they knew 128 00:09:08.120 --> 00:09:15.639 this was it wasn't kosher to mix religions. So but 129 00:09:16.039 --> 00:09:17.840 you know, and by the time you get to Aquinas 130 00:09:17.879 --> 00:09:21.399 for example, I'm actually by the I think it was 131 00:09:21.519 --> 00:09:25.440 twelve fifty four something like that, to teach philosophy in 132 00:09:25.600 --> 00:09:29.120 the universities in the Latin West was to teach Aristotle. 133 00:09:30.039 --> 00:09:32.960 And I mean he was so that's why they saw 134 00:09:33.039 --> 00:09:36.159 him as this medieval figure. And then in the Renaissance 135 00:09:36.320 --> 00:09:40.399 you get people like Galileo and others sort of pushing 136 00:09:40.480 --> 00:09:45.399 back or objecting to, rejecting this sort of ossified Aristotle 137 00:09:45.480 --> 00:09:48.480 that you know, Aristotle's view of the universe, his view 138 00:09:48.519 --> 00:09:51.480 of the solar system, that was you know, part of 139 00:09:51.600 --> 00:09:56.159 his philosophy. And at the same time, Plato's works, which 140 00:09:56.200 --> 00:09:59.320 weren't much known in the Middle Ages, were rediscovered in 141 00:09:59.360 --> 00:10:02.720 the Renaissance and people loved them. You know. You you 142 00:10:02.840 --> 00:10:06.399 get these, you know, all a lot of these figures, 143 00:10:06.440 --> 00:10:08.559 even some of the really good ones who saw themselves 144 00:10:08.559 --> 00:10:14.600 as Platonists. So it gets very confusing. But what what 145 00:10:14.759 --> 00:10:18.639 people are starting to just to spend more time I 146 00:10:18.679 --> 00:10:21.600 think working on, is is that that story doesn't really 147 00:10:22.559 --> 00:10:26.159 fit that that Aristotle. Yeah, there were these people who 148 00:10:26.879 --> 00:10:30.279 were pushing back against Arisotole. But even Galileo, for example, says, 149 00:10:30.759 --> 00:10:37.240 you know, while he's objecting to these these Catholic Aristotelians 150 00:10:37.399 --> 00:10:41.320 who won't look through microscope through through telescopes, he's also saying, 151 00:10:42.519 --> 00:10:46.679 I'm the real parapatetic. If you really understand Aristotle, I'm 152 00:10:46.960 --> 00:10:49.519 you know, because he wants to look at the world 153 00:10:49.559 --> 00:10:52.440 and use your reason to describe it. Yeah, and I 154 00:10:52.559 --> 00:10:56.279 think you see that. I mean, Aristotle's works were really 155 00:10:56.399 --> 00:10:59.159 influential at the University of Padua and where you had 156 00:10:59.480 --> 00:11:03.039 Galilee and William Harvey and people like that. Jim Lennox 157 00:11:03.159 --> 00:11:06.559 is doing work, I think on on the the Aristotelian influence, uh, 158 00:11:06.720 --> 00:11:12.120 the unacknowledged influence of Aristotle on on science and things 159 00:11:12.159 --> 00:11:16.240 of that sort. So this story that you have Aristotle 160 00:11:16.360 --> 00:11:20.600 arrives in the Latin West, he's influential on a Quinas, 161 00:11:21.120 --> 00:11:23.720 he becomes this dogma in effect, which in a way 162 00:11:23.799 --> 00:11:27.600 is true. That's what what happens. And then uh, and 163 00:11:27.679 --> 00:11:29.960 then you have these really good people who are you know, 164 00:11:31.120 --> 00:11:34.279 empirically minded in a good sense if there is one, 165 00:11:34.519 --> 00:11:36.679 and well, you know what I mean. And then you know, 166 00:11:36.759 --> 00:11:40.600 based on century observation and reasoning based on that and 167 00:11:40.679 --> 00:11:45.759 a good scientific method, and there's there's definitely an Aristotelian 168 00:11:45.919 --> 00:11:49.480 influence there, but it just doesn't it's not as clean, 169 00:11:49.639 --> 00:11:51.679 you know, clear cut as you would you would see. 170 00:11:52.759 --> 00:11:56.840 So that kind of understanding of the both the complexity 171 00:11:56.919 --> 00:12:00.519 of the story but the underlying the underlying value of 172 00:12:00.600 --> 00:12:04.879 Aristotle that is becoming more prevalent among the Stabians and 173 00:12:05.000 --> 00:12:07.080 Stabians philosophy it's not my. 174 00:12:07.120 --> 00:12:09.039 Fields, so right, haven't kept up, but you do get 175 00:12:09.039 --> 00:12:12.679 these popular books about you know, about Aristotle and his 176 00:12:13.159 --> 00:12:18.600 influence of the books you mentioned, and I wouldn't be 177 00:12:18.679 --> 00:12:21.720 surprised if there's more work of that kind. I mentioned 178 00:12:21.799 --> 00:12:23.519 Jim Lennox, but you know he has a nine Ran 179 00:12:23.600 --> 00:12:26.639 connection and not that that I mean, he could have 180 00:12:26.679 --> 00:12:29.960 done it independently of that, I think, but but there 181 00:12:30.039 --> 00:12:32.360 must be work on that. I mean, he's done work 182 00:12:32.440 --> 00:12:35.720 on even you know, Aristotle's influence on Darwin, and you know, 183 00:12:35.919 --> 00:12:42.919 there's there's these interesting connections that haven't been thoroughly explored. 184 00:12:42.679 --> 00:12:48.159 I think, and of course philosophy. I mean, like Aristotle's 185 00:12:48.279 --> 00:12:52.240 impact on you know, he impacts the culture and then 186 00:12:52.279 --> 00:12:54.399 the culture can impact an individual. It doesn't always go 187 00:12:54.440 --> 00:12:58.480 into direct line weed the person in order to So 188 00:12:58.799 --> 00:13:01.080 before we I want to go back to I want 189 00:13:01.120 --> 00:13:03.879 to go back to Aristotle and ancient philosophy. But tell 190 00:13:04.000 --> 00:13:06.519 us how you discovered iron Rand and kind of the 191 00:13:06.600 --> 00:13:09.600 influence she had on you in terms of kind of 192 00:13:09.639 --> 00:13:11.080 your academic trajectory. 193 00:13:13.039 --> 00:13:15.960 Well, I was reading in junior high, so I think 194 00:13:15.960 --> 00:13:22.200 it was thirteen or fourteen. I started reading these dystopian novels, 195 00:13:22.799 --> 00:13:27.799 and you know, I read Animal Farm, nineteen eighty four, 196 00:13:28.240 --> 00:13:32.399 Brave New World, and then my And this is, you know, 197 00:13:32.519 --> 00:13:34.600 if you were writing a novel, you wouldn't have your 198 00:13:34.720 --> 00:13:37.960 mother influence you. I mean, that just doesn't work. And 199 00:13:38.120 --> 00:13:39.559 so but there it is. I have to tell the truth. 200 00:13:39.679 --> 00:13:41.919 And she said, oh, have you read Anthem? That's one 201 00:13:42.000 --> 00:13:44.840 of those novels. And I said, no, I hadn't. So 202 00:13:44.919 --> 00:13:49.200 I read Anthem and it was clearly the best I 203 00:13:49.279 --> 00:13:51.000 know you could say that. I mean, nineteen eighty four 204 00:13:51.159 --> 00:13:55.759 was a longer novel, you know, it was. It was 205 00:13:56.039 --> 00:13:58.639 well longer, had a lot more events and stuff like that. 206 00:13:59.360 --> 00:14:01.240 But there was some thing about Anthem that I couldn't 207 00:14:01.279 --> 00:14:03.559 put my finger on at the time that was so 208 00:14:03.759 --> 00:14:08.840 much better and more inspiring. And I wasn't a really good, 209 00:14:09.679 --> 00:14:12.639 very confident reader. So I went looking for her other 210 00:14:12.879 --> 00:14:15.879 novels and I saw Fountain had no that's too fat. 211 00:14:16.000 --> 00:14:19.559 I don't read these fat novels, you know. But you know, 212 00:14:19.639 --> 00:14:21.840 a couple of years later I did read it, of course, 213 00:14:21.919 --> 00:14:26.120 and then that led to Atlas Shrugged. And at the 214 00:14:26.159 --> 00:14:28.159 time I had no idea. I mean, neither of my 215 00:14:28.240 --> 00:14:30.480 parents went to college. I didn't have I didn't know 216 00:14:30.679 --> 00:14:34.799 what academia was or I was much more interested in 217 00:14:35.399 --> 00:14:38.159 in high school and backpacking around Europe and in saving 218 00:14:38.240 --> 00:14:40.399 up my money to do that. I didn't have any 219 00:14:41.159 --> 00:14:44.159 I didn't know what I was going to do. So 220 00:14:44.279 --> 00:14:46.720 you know, I went to college not knowing what I 221 00:14:46.799 --> 00:14:49.000 was going to major in or anything like that. But 222 00:14:49.159 --> 00:14:53.960 I was becoming interested in ideas, and especially politically ideas. 223 00:14:54.000 --> 00:14:58.240 And also during this time, I'm starting to read anti 224 00:14:58.399 --> 00:15:02.320 Soviet literature, a lot of it, and that tied in with, 225 00:15:02.480 --> 00:15:03.960 you know, when I finally got around to we the 226 00:15:04.000 --> 00:15:08.960 living that was there, So I'm becoming I thought of 227 00:15:09.039 --> 00:15:13.000 myself as conservative, but that there were things I didn't 228 00:15:13.200 --> 00:15:16.279 like about being a conservative, particularly because of iron Rand. 229 00:15:16.759 --> 00:15:19.960 Like you know, I read Wreckage of the Consensus. Okay, 230 00:15:20.120 --> 00:15:22.360 there goes the Draft. Because I didn't have a good 231 00:15:22.440 --> 00:15:25.799 integrated view, I thought, well, if I have to choose, 232 00:15:25.799 --> 00:15:29.399 I'm clearly a conservative, not a liberal. But then reading 233 00:15:29.480 --> 00:15:31.279 iron Ran, the more you read at this, the little 234 00:15:31.320 --> 00:15:34.440 parts of it get chipped away. No, there goes God, 235 00:15:34.840 --> 00:15:37.360 there goes the Draft. And it became clear that there 236 00:15:37.480 --> 00:15:43.000 was something very different about her. And then I did 237 00:15:43.120 --> 00:15:44.799 one of the most important things to do, I think 238 00:15:44.799 --> 00:15:47.240 when you're this point in your development. I went to 239 00:15:47.320 --> 00:15:52.519 a libertarian meeting and it became clear it was odd 240 00:15:52.639 --> 00:15:55.080 because someone had told me the Libertarians are the followers 241 00:15:55.120 --> 00:15:56.600 of Iron Rand, and what did I know. I was 242 00:15:56.679 --> 00:15:59.399 twenty or nineteen something like that. So I went there 243 00:15:59.519 --> 00:16:03.759 and they were so it was so I felt, you know, 244 00:16:04.000 --> 00:16:08.840 almost an esthetic negative reaction. And then there was a 245 00:16:09.000 --> 00:16:12.200 speaker there. This was the Maryland Libertarian Partner or something 246 00:16:12.279 --> 00:16:15.840 like that, and he was defending Palestine and the and 247 00:16:15.960 --> 00:16:19.960 the American Indians. And I'm thinking, well, as the kids 248 00:16:20.000 --> 00:16:25.039 say today, WTF, you know, what the hell is this? 249 00:16:25.279 --> 00:16:28.320 And then someone made a critical remark about iin Ran 250 00:16:28.399 --> 00:16:31.600 because I mentioned the influence and so in a way 251 00:16:31.639 --> 00:16:34.320 it was that was it for the libertarians, you know, 252 00:16:35.960 --> 00:16:40.039 that was that was enough? And then yeah, so she 253 00:16:40.320 --> 00:16:45.240 was really I mean, you know, clearly was an important 254 00:16:45.279 --> 00:16:47.200 influence in kind of getting me in the right direction, 255 00:16:47.360 --> 00:16:50.320 even a very you know, this is before I read 256 00:16:50.919 --> 00:16:53.840 anything about epistemology, and I believe I read Virtue of 257 00:16:53.919 --> 00:16:57.840 Selfishness by around twenty or twenty one, and reading the novel, 258 00:16:57.919 --> 00:17:00.399 but just reading it and so much of it, you know, 259 00:17:00.799 --> 00:17:03.600 going past. But I was kind of figuring out what 260 00:17:03.799 --> 00:17:07.359 I was. And you know, like I said, if they're 261 00:17:07.400 --> 00:17:09.640 not really integrated, if you hold a set of beliefs, 262 00:17:09.680 --> 00:17:13.640 because you know this is this must be I must 263 00:17:13.680 --> 00:17:15.880 be a conservative. So I guess they're in favor of 264 00:17:15.960 --> 00:17:18.200 the draft, I suppose, But those sort of things that 265 00:17:18.279 --> 00:17:22.400 aren't held very well, very totally, they're easily you know, uh, 266 00:17:22.839 --> 00:17:26.200 jettison and I mean reading Wreckage of the Consensus, Yeah, 267 00:17:26.279 --> 00:17:28.880 that is a violation of the individual rights. And then 268 00:17:29.400 --> 00:17:31.400 reading I think some of the brand and stuff. When 269 00:17:31.440 --> 00:17:34.200 I found that the University of Maryland had the the 270 00:17:34.279 --> 00:17:37.799 Objectivist New Newsletter and and those volumes, I kind of 271 00:17:37.880 --> 00:17:43.039 read through those and yeah, so that's that really got 272 00:17:43.119 --> 00:17:45.599 me in the in the right direction, and I even 273 00:17:45.720 --> 00:17:48.160 I found that one of the things I was very 274 00:17:48.200 --> 00:17:52.559 proud of. When when I was starting to write papers, 275 00:17:52.640 --> 00:17:55.039 it looked like I was gonna I was majoring in 276 00:17:55.720 --> 00:18:00.880 political science and minoring in philosophy. I started to look 277 00:18:00.920 --> 00:18:05.039 at what did I like about Iinrand's writing. I mean, 278 00:18:05.079 --> 00:18:07.519 this sounds presumptuous or whatever, but there was something very 279 00:18:07.640 --> 00:18:11.720 clear and logical about it, and I started trying to 280 00:18:11.799 --> 00:18:14.079 emulate that in the sense of at least having a 281 00:18:14.160 --> 00:18:17.680 good structure and all that. And I was getting good grades, 282 00:18:17.720 --> 00:18:20.720 and I got good feedback from my professors who liked 283 00:18:20.759 --> 00:18:24.000 my writing, and so that made me think, well, maybe 284 00:18:24.039 --> 00:18:26.759 I could, Maybe I could do what these guys are doing, 285 00:18:27.359 --> 00:18:29.039 because I really, like I said, I didn't have a 286 00:18:29.119 --> 00:18:30.640 clue of what academia was. 287 00:18:31.240 --> 00:18:33.279 And so I. 288 00:18:35.319 --> 00:18:40.599 Went to Georgetown originally to study political science or government 289 00:18:40.680 --> 00:18:42.359 I think they called it, with which the idea that 290 00:18:42.440 --> 00:18:46.000 I do political theory. And then after two years of that, 291 00:18:46.200 --> 00:18:47.960 they allowed me to do something which I think would 292 00:18:48.000 --> 00:18:52.000 be unheard of now. I jumped ship from the government 293 00:18:52.119 --> 00:18:56.279 department to philosophy and started working on ancient philosophy. And 294 00:18:56.480 --> 00:18:59.960 the first semester there it was just serendipity. Alan Gohel 295 00:19:00.240 --> 00:19:04.839 was visiting professor, and that was wonderful. It was really 296 00:19:05.160 --> 00:19:07.759 that was my first semester, you know, officially as a 297 00:19:07.799 --> 00:19:12.599 philosophy student, and I met Allan and then you know it, 298 00:19:12.920 --> 00:19:15.759 I was kind of set. So you know, by the 299 00:19:15.799 --> 00:19:20.160 time I got my my PhD, it was really just 300 00:19:20.240 --> 00:19:22.240 a question can I get a job or not? And 301 00:19:23.960 --> 00:19:26.960 that was that. But well, I should mention going back. 302 00:19:28.119 --> 00:19:30.279 I mean, the first conference was in eighty three and 303 00:19:30.359 --> 00:19:34.279 I went to that and and that really you know, 304 00:19:34.359 --> 00:19:37.480 the the not OCON, but it was the Thomas Jefferson Institute, 305 00:19:37.480 --> 00:19:38.480 I think it was called. 306 00:19:38.279 --> 00:19:42.599 And yes, there was the predecessor of OCON, so it 307 00:19:42.680 --> 00:19:45.119 was right right right, So I went on similar format, 308 00:19:45.240 --> 00:19:46.839 not exactly but some similar format. 309 00:19:47.000 --> 00:19:50.480 But they were every other year for sixteen weeks. 310 00:19:51.440 --> 00:19:52.759 What's that for two weeks? 311 00:19:53.039 --> 00:19:56.160 Yeah, three weekends, I remember, and it was it was 312 00:19:56.279 --> 00:19:58.720 amazing because you've got to meet people. And I met 313 00:19:58.759 --> 00:20:00.960 the person I ended up marrying, And I mean we 314 00:20:01.079 --> 00:20:03.599 met in eighty three, we hit it off in eighty five, 315 00:20:03.720 --> 00:20:06.400 and then why do you need another conference? So we 316 00:20:06.480 --> 00:20:08.160 didn't go in eighty sex. We got married in eighty 317 00:20:08.240 --> 00:20:11.039 seven and eventually by the by the time I returned, 318 00:20:11.200 --> 00:20:14.319 with one exception, I think I was teaching at the 319 00:20:14.400 --> 00:20:17.200 conferences and then you know I did that with the 320 00:20:17.279 --> 00:20:20.920 Lyceum conferences and all those and yep, well i've been 321 00:20:21.039 --> 00:20:22.920 you know, I've been involved ever since. 322 00:20:23.039 --> 00:20:25.160 But yeah, yeah, but. 323 00:20:26.960 --> 00:20:29.400 Yeah, there was just something about the ancient Greek culture 324 00:20:29.680 --> 00:20:33.920 that I really fell in love with, including you know, 325 00:20:34.039 --> 00:20:38.480 the tragedies, Sophocles and Homer. I've been returning to work 326 00:20:38.559 --> 00:20:41.839 on Homer. Yeah, that's all. It's all been. 327 00:20:42.480 --> 00:20:44.160 So tell us a little bit about your work on 328 00:20:44.680 --> 00:20:48.480 kind of the the I'm curious about Homer. About Homer, 329 00:20:48.559 --> 00:20:50.119 what kind of work do you do? Are you doing 330 00:20:50.200 --> 00:20:50.559 on him? 331 00:20:50.720 --> 00:20:54.519 And well, it's connected, it's not directly on Homer, although 332 00:20:54.559 --> 00:20:58.119 it kind of it sort of is. I became very 333 00:20:58.200 --> 00:21:03.799 interested in the lost works of Aristotle. All we have 334 00:21:04.000 --> 00:21:08.599 everything Plato ever wrote. Everything Plato wrote has survived Aristotle. 335 00:21:08.680 --> 00:21:12.759 We have about a fifth of what he wrote and there, 336 00:21:12.799 --> 00:21:15.240 but there's a lot of fragments. And fragments can mean 337 00:21:15.319 --> 00:21:20.480 either works that survive from antiquity that quote Aristotle a 338 00:21:20.559 --> 00:21:23.359 quota work that doesn't survive, or I mean more literal 339 00:21:23.599 --> 00:21:27.559 the Pyrus fragments something like that and one of the 340 00:21:27.599 --> 00:21:30.279 works he wrote. And there's kind of a big move 341 00:21:30.400 --> 00:21:34.000 now there's there's one guy in particular I've been working 342 00:21:34.039 --> 00:21:37.880 closely with at the University of Padua. The idea is 343 00:21:37.920 --> 00:21:41.759 that we need to reassess all the evidence for Aristotle's 344 00:21:41.799 --> 00:21:45.359 lost works, and the first work I have actually I 345 00:21:45.480 --> 00:21:48.319 have my books here, some of them. Anyway, I don't 346 00:21:48.319 --> 00:21:51.279 know if you can see that. Is it aristotle Lost 347 00:21:51.319 --> 00:21:55.799 Homeric Problems? Yeah, that and you know it's Oxford University Press, 348 00:21:55.880 --> 00:21:57.240 and I mentioned the Irate Institute. 349 00:21:57.599 --> 00:21:58.279 That's great with. 350 00:22:00.000 --> 00:22:04.000 Dollars of ancient philosophy, Lucus Caancer. But anyway, uh so 351 00:22:04.160 --> 00:22:07.359 that was the first work of his lost work that 352 00:22:07.599 --> 00:22:10.640 I've I published on and published a lot on. Namely, 353 00:22:11.160 --> 00:22:13.960 he wrote a work called the Homeric Problems, which was 354 00:22:15.599 --> 00:22:17.640 said to be in six books. That would have been 355 00:22:17.680 --> 00:22:21.119 six papyrus roles scrolls, so you know it would be 356 00:22:21.160 --> 00:22:25.200 a substantial work, and it was probably I mean, there 357 00:22:25.279 --> 00:22:30.039 was emerging a kind of culture where the they weren't 358 00:22:30.119 --> 00:22:34.039 sacred texts, but Homer's epics were very important to the 359 00:22:34.319 --> 00:22:37.079 I mean, if you were an aristocratic young male, you know, 360 00:22:37.359 --> 00:22:43.000 being educated, you would be reading and discussing Homer, I mean, 361 00:22:43.079 --> 00:22:46.160 and and and there'd be questions that would arise, and 362 00:22:46.720 --> 00:22:49.839 these became known as Homeric problems. And it was probably 363 00:22:49.880 --> 00:22:52.319 Aristotle who got this started, but there may have been 364 00:22:53.400 --> 00:22:58.559 and partly was it was to discuss you know, problematic 365 00:22:58.640 --> 00:23:03.960 texts or parent contradictions and characterization. But also there was 366 00:23:04.759 --> 00:23:07.720 there were critics of Homer, like Plato in the Republic 367 00:23:07.799 --> 00:23:12.279 says Homer should be banned and uh. And one response 368 00:23:12.359 --> 00:23:15.559 to that was to say, well, we'll, we'll, we'll interpret 369 00:23:15.640 --> 00:23:20.559 him allegorically. And Aristota rejected both of those, you know, Uh, 370 00:23:20.720 --> 00:23:23.519 he shouldn't be banned, you know, and for reasons deeper 371 00:23:23.599 --> 00:23:27.279 than just one's appraisal of Homer his view of art 372 00:23:28.039 --> 00:23:31.799 or literature anyway. But so I became really fascinated in that. 373 00:23:32.359 --> 00:23:32.440 Uh. 374 00:23:32.559 --> 00:23:37.039 And I've published well, this one book, uh and then uh, 375 00:23:37.119 --> 00:23:41.119 several articles where most of the fragments survive in the 376 00:23:41.440 --> 00:23:46.039 margins of the the manuscripts of Homer that have survived 377 00:23:46.160 --> 00:23:49.640 to the Middle Ages, right, And so they're very you know, 378 00:23:49.680 --> 00:23:53.319 they're difficult to read, and but I rely on mostly 379 00:23:53.359 --> 00:23:55.440 I rely on other scholars for that. But some of 380 00:23:55.480 --> 00:23:58.279 the some of the stuff I've looked at directly, and 381 00:23:58.480 --> 00:24:01.799 I'm just find that really fascinating. Uh to dig up 382 00:24:01.839 --> 00:24:06.319 this old Aristotle and and try to, uh, you know, 383 00:24:06.440 --> 00:24:08.039 figure out what what's going on? 384 00:24:08.240 --> 00:24:13.160 And uh so I'm curious now, So so what so 385 00:24:13.559 --> 00:24:18.160 we're all familiar I think with uh, with with Homer. 386 00:24:18.279 --> 00:24:22.319 So what what what value did Aristotle see in Homer 387 00:24:22.799 --> 00:24:24.319 that that obviously Plato did not. 388 00:24:25.640 --> 00:24:30.920 Well, Aristotle thought that Homer was the he was the 389 00:24:31.160 --> 00:24:35.559 paradigm of epic poetry. I mean, because Aristotle wrote a 390 00:24:35.599 --> 00:24:38.200 work in two books called the Poetics. The second book 391 00:24:38.319 --> 00:24:41.160 is lost, which was probably it was almost It was 392 00:24:41.200 --> 00:24:45.200 certainly on comedy, you know, ancient Greek comedy, the plays 393 00:24:45.359 --> 00:24:49.519 like Aristophanes and stuff, and also similar kinds of like 394 00:24:49.720 --> 00:24:54.440 there's a there was a genre called lampoons, and he 395 00:24:54.559 --> 00:24:57.960 probably talked about that as well. But the first, the 396 00:24:58.279 --> 00:25:00.880 first book of the Poetics, which is the one that survives, 397 00:25:01.480 --> 00:25:05.880 is on tragedy and epic and especially tragedy, but which 398 00:25:05.920 --> 00:25:09.200 I think Aristotle probably I think he regarded as a 399 00:25:09.279 --> 00:25:13.640 superior form to Homer. But he did think Homer was 400 00:25:13.680 --> 00:25:21.720 a genius and brilliant and the main difference, though because 401 00:25:21.720 --> 00:25:24.119