WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.320 --> 00:00:02.560 Oh hey, it's that incense that reminds you of freshman 2 00:00:02.640 --> 00:00:04.839 year so much that you can only smell it sometimes 3 00:00:04.919 --> 00:00:07.919 because you don't want the nostalgia to fade. Ali Ward 4 00:00:08.279 --> 00:00:11.320 back with a follow up as promised episode of Ologies 5 00:00:11.400 --> 00:00:15.000 that serves as a companion piece to last week's fire 6 00:00:15.039 --> 00:00:18.079 Ecology episode. So perhaps listen to that one first, come 7 00:00:18.120 --> 00:00:22.359 here from more context, or don't. Ultimately, none of my beeswax. Okay, 8 00:00:22.440 --> 00:00:25.839 so just a little behind the scenes on this one's format. 9 00:00:26.079 --> 00:00:28.079 Format is a little different than what you're used to. 10 00:00:28.320 --> 00:00:30.320 I spoke with this ologist while she was up in 11 00:00:30.359 --> 00:00:34.119 the wilderness of Canada on vacation, and the internet was spotty, 12 00:00:34.159 --> 00:00:36.159 So the first ten minutes or so, it's not the 13 00:00:36.200 --> 00:00:38.920 finest quality audio we've ever had on Ologies, but we 14 00:00:38.960 --> 00:00:42.960 did our best, and then she sent some standalone recordings 15 00:00:43.000 --> 00:00:46.200 answering more questions, and then after the break, we're featuring 16 00:00:46.320 --> 00:00:50.520 excerpts from her own indigenous fire ecology podcast, Good Fire 17 00:00:50.600 --> 00:00:53.520 with Matt Christoph, making this a real community effort and 18 00:00:53.759 --> 00:00:57.200 a fire mosaic episode. Indeed, so this ologist got her 19 00:00:57.240 --> 00:01:01.039 master's and PhD and hazard management and fire science and 20 00:01:01.119 --> 00:01:05.159 works as a fire social scientist for the Canadian Forest Service. 21 00:01:05.400 --> 00:01:08.280 She is a Metea woman from Treaty six territory on 22 00:01:08.359 --> 00:01:11.640 land now known as Canada, and has authored papers such 23 00:01:11.640 --> 00:01:15.400 as social science Research on Indigenous wildfire management in the 24 00:01:15.400 --> 00:01:18.719 twenty first century and future research needs, so she is 25 00:01:19.079 --> 00:01:21.239 well schooled on this. And then I saw she has 26 00:01:21.280 --> 00:01:24.840 a podcast called good Fire recorded with Matt Christoff, who 27 00:01:24.879 --> 00:01:28.400 also hosts the Your Forest podcast. So this ologist was 28 00:01:28.439 --> 00:01:31.000 on vacation. I desperately wanted to chat with her the 29 00:01:31.040 --> 00:01:33.560 one week she was trying to relax, but she luckily 30 00:01:33.640 --> 00:01:35.840 was very up to take a little break and chat 31 00:01:35.879 --> 00:01:39.319 amid spotty internet and some techtifs. Huge thanks to Matt 32 00:01:39.319 --> 00:01:41.959 for getting us in touch and for lending us excerpts 33 00:01:42.000 --> 00:01:44.319 from Your Forest and good Fire at the Future. Also 34 00:01:44.319 --> 00:01:46.599 thank you to everyone at patreon dot com slash ologies 35 00:01:46.599 --> 00:01:49.760 for making the show possible. This episode was informed by 36 00:01:49.760 --> 00:01:53.200 the questions you left about indigenous fire stewardship, and thanks 37 00:01:53.200 --> 00:01:55.760 to everyone who rates and reviews podcasts. It matters more 38 00:01:55.760 --> 00:01:58.040 than you will ever know, and I read them all 39 00:01:58.280 --> 00:02:00.319 so I can prove it with a fresh shadow out 40 00:02:00.400 --> 00:02:03.120 for one left this week, such as Sarah ib who 41 00:02:03.200 --> 00:02:05.280 wrote I started listening to this podcast and got to 42 00:02:05.319 --> 00:02:08.599 the gynecological episode and decided to make my first Obgian 43 00:02:08.680 --> 00:02:12.400 appointment after turns out I have endometrial cancer. I had 44 00:02:12.400 --> 00:02:15.280 a hysterectomy and I'm currently doing radiation therapy. Thank you, 45 00:02:15.319 --> 00:02:20.919 Dad Ford for this informative podcast. Sarah, what what sending you? 46 00:02:21.319 --> 00:02:23.879 The biggest, biggest hugs and the best vibes for a 47 00:02:23.919 --> 00:02:27.759 speedy defeat of that, and thank you for getting checked out. Okay, 48 00:02:27.919 --> 00:02:31.360 onward to the episode. Etymology is Simple Indigenous means native 49 00:02:31.400 --> 00:02:34.719 fire has a root meaning fire and ecology the study 50 00:02:34.719 --> 00:02:37.520 of where we live. So we'll be covering cultural burns, 51 00:02:37.680 --> 00:02:43.039 dripped torches, forest debris, healthy trees, the legality of indigenous 52 00:02:43.080 --> 00:02:47.800 fire stewardship, fighting fires with strategy, napping on the fire line, 53 00:02:48.000 --> 00:02:53.639 evacuations and more with Fire Scientist Advocate podcast host Canadian 54 00:02:53.680 --> 00:02:59.759 Forest Service employee, scholar and Indigenous fire ecologist doctor Amy Christiansen. 55 00:03:18.520 --> 00:03:21.120 Yeah, no problem at all. It's great too to have 56 00:03:21.240 --> 00:03:23.479 so much like attention on this topic as well. 57 00:03:23.960 --> 00:03:28.479 Oh, it's wonderful, wonderful to have you. So now, are 58 00:03:28.520 --> 00:03:31.000 you at the top of a mountain right now trying 59 00:03:31.039 --> 00:03:31.879 to get cell service? 60 00:03:33.000 --> 00:03:35.879 No, I'm actually at my parents' cabin, but they do 61 00:03:36.039 --> 00:03:38.280 not have great internet. But does it sound okay? 62 00:03:38.879 --> 00:03:40.280 Yeah, it sounds great so far. 63 00:03:40.680 --> 00:03:44.000 Literally they're at like the very north end of a 64 00:03:44.080 --> 00:03:47.800 lake called Shoeshwap Lake and currently we're actually surrounded by 65 00:03:47.879 --> 00:03:49.159 three fires as well. 66 00:03:50.240 --> 00:03:53.080 Oh my gosh. And is that an area that you're 67 00:03:53.120 --> 00:03:54.960 pretty familiar with? Has your family been there for a 68 00:03:54.960 --> 00:03:55.400 long time? 69 00:03:55.680 --> 00:03:57.800 Yeah, my parents have this cabin that we've had in 70 00:03:57.840 --> 00:04:00.439 our family, I think for about thirty years now. 71 00:04:00.479 --> 00:04:04.120 Have you seen a change at all in how the 72 00:04:04.159 --> 00:04:08.680 summers go in terms of say, being surrounded by fire. 73 00:04:09.120 --> 00:04:11.280 So the area that we're in is actually kind of 74 00:04:11.280 --> 00:04:15.120 a rainforest area. We always kind of jokingly refer to 75 00:04:15.159 --> 00:04:17.240 it as that, and we used to get so much 76 00:04:17.399 --> 00:04:20.720 rain out here in the summer. In probably the last 77 00:04:20.759 --> 00:04:24.160 ten years, we've noticed it's been getting warmer in this 78 00:04:24.279 --> 00:04:27.279 area and we've been getting less rain and even the 79 00:04:27.279 --> 00:04:30.560 cedars are really starting to not look as healthy. And 80 00:04:30.600 --> 00:04:34.519 then the last probably five years, we've had more summers 81 00:04:34.519 --> 00:04:38.800 of smoke. So it's really been Yeah, I've really noticed 82 00:04:38.839 --> 00:04:40.839 a change just even in my lifetime. 83 00:04:41.319 --> 00:04:44.879 And how long have you been studying fire? How long 84 00:04:44.920 --> 00:04:46.600 had you been a fire scientist? 85 00:04:47.079 --> 00:04:50.439 I grew up in northern Alberta. There's always kind of 86 00:04:50.519 --> 00:04:53.959 fires around my family, although we didn't kind of have 87 00:04:54.120 --> 00:04:58.040 the connection. We were disconnected from cultural burning practices, but 88 00:04:58.480 --> 00:05:01.800 my family was kind of always you know, I've been 89 00:05:01.839 --> 00:05:05.680 involved in fire and my husband's a wildland firefighter, and yeah, 90 00:05:05.800 --> 00:05:08.120 just growing up it seemed like kind of a normal 91 00:05:08.240 --> 00:05:11.000 thing in the north. And when I moved down south 92 00:05:11.040 --> 00:05:14.639 to an urban center, that was when I really realized, 93 00:05:14.680 --> 00:05:17.720 you know, that other people didn't have that, or you know, 94 00:05:17.879 --> 00:05:21.279 we're weren't so used to that. I guess I started 95 00:05:21.560 --> 00:05:25.079 actually as a geologist, but I always loved hazards, but 96 00:05:25.160 --> 00:05:28.040 more volcanic hazards and things that I was interested in. 97 00:05:28.480 --> 00:05:31.040 So I did two years actually in New Zealand, where 98 00:05:31.040 --> 00:05:34.800 I did my masters on volcanic hazard management. But you know, 99 00:05:34.920 --> 00:05:37.199 I always kind of feel like bound to the forest 100 00:05:37.519 --> 00:05:41.240 in Alberta. So I ended up kind of coming back. 101 00:05:41.279 --> 00:05:44.319 And I even said to my PhD supervisor, like, you know, 102 00:05:44.439 --> 00:05:47.319 I'll study anything but fire. You know, I don't want 103 00:05:47.959 --> 00:05:50.480 to have fire in my life because I just, you know, 104 00:05:50.560 --> 00:05:53.360 it was around it all the time, and wanted something different. 105 00:05:53.439 --> 00:05:56.680 But yeah, kind of slowly got pulled back into the 106 00:05:56.759 --> 00:05:59.759 field and yeah, I've been at the Canadian Forest Service 107 00:05:59.800 --> 00:06:01.759 now for about ten years. 108 00:06:02.360 --> 00:06:05.519 Just when I thought I was out, they pulled me back. 109 00:06:06.519 --> 00:06:09.199 Oh my god, what is your what is your work like? 110 00:06:09.319 --> 00:06:12.639 And have you grown to appreciate it all? Are you 111 00:06:12.680 --> 00:06:16.560 still like fire? Here we are again, you and me fire? 112 00:06:16.759 --> 00:06:18.519 Yeah, no, I think yeah, it's kind of one of 113 00:06:18.600 --> 00:06:21.399 those things you have to realize that maybe you're just 114 00:06:21.759 --> 00:06:24.120 like I don't know, No, I don't want to say 115 00:06:24.160 --> 00:06:26.800 destined to be, but you know, I think that living 116 00:06:26.839 --> 00:06:29.439 in the North, it's just you know, I think that 117 00:06:29.519 --> 00:06:32.920 you have that experience with fire and seeing it around you. 118 00:06:33.000 --> 00:06:35.399 And that's one thing I always find interesting is when 119 00:06:35.439 --> 00:06:39.639 I meet, you know, other fire scientists who aren't, you know, 120 00:06:39.800 --> 00:06:42.720 from areas that experience fire, and I think sometimes it's 121 00:06:42.720 --> 00:06:46.079 maybe hard for them to relate, especially when we're talking 122 00:06:46.079 --> 00:06:49.120 about fire risk and kind of how people act during 123 00:06:49.160 --> 00:06:50.000 a fire event. 124 00:06:50.519 --> 00:06:53.519 So one of doctor Christensen's areas of research and work 125 00:06:53.639 --> 00:06:57.399 is studying evacuations, so when to leave your home with 126 00:06:57.600 --> 00:07:00.600 just a few possessions and your life for what might 127 00:07:00.680 --> 00:07:03.279 be the last time. And it's something that she says 128 00:07:03.439 --> 00:07:06.360 fire scientists who haven't grown up around fire and had 129 00:07:06.360 --> 00:07:10.000 to themselves evacuate. Might not understand, and if you listened 130 00:07:10.040 --> 00:07:12.439 to last week's episode, I mentioned that my parents lived 131 00:07:12.439 --> 00:07:15.920 in the remote Sierra Nevadas for years and coercing them 132 00:07:16.160 --> 00:07:19.399 to evacuate during the King Fire was not easy, even 133 00:07:19.439 --> 00:07:21.439 with the promise of a night or two at the 134 00:07:21.439 --> 00:07:23.560 fantasy end with a mirrored ceiling. 135 00:07:24.079 --> 00:07:27.000 When I first started at the Canadian for Service, there 136 00:07:27.079 --> 00:07:31.160 was like no interest really in indigenous fire management or 137 00:07:31.279 --> 00:07:35.160 cultural burning practices or indigenous firefighters. So I would say 138 00:07:35.160 --> 00:07:39.040 it was like a very lonely kind of first five 139 00:07:39.199 --> 00:07:42.079 or six years. And so most of my colleagues are 140 00:07:42.079 --> 00:07:47.519 actually international folks, so mainly folks from actually California and 141 00:07:47.639 --> 00:07:50.959 Australia who are in this field as well. But I 142 00:07:51.000 --> 00:07:53.920 think like pretty much since we've started having the big 143 00:07:53.959 --> 00:07:57.759 fire events in Canada, that's really what's forced people to 144 00:07:57.839 --> 00:08:00.639 kind of look at maybe a different way of looking 145 00:08:00.680 --> 00:08:04.360 at fire off the landscape. My interest in fire is 146 00:08:04.399 --> 00:08:08.240 also tied to like my own family's history. So my 147 00:08:08.360 --> 00:08:11.959 family's Mayti, so we're from northern Alberta, the Cardinal and 148 00:08:12.040 --> 00:08:16.120 labcan families, and we kind of had like a weird 149 00:08:16.319 --> 00:08:20.079 kind of disconnection from culture, which most Mayti families in 150 00:08:20.160 --> 00:08:25.600 Canada actually experience during colonization, and so it's basically we 151 00:08:25.600 --> 00:08:28.759 weren't allowed to practice any of our traditions and other things. 152 00:08:28.879 --> 00:08:31.720 It's interesting to be because it almost parallels fire in 153 00:08:31.800 --> 00:08:35.360 a way. So when settlers, you know, first came to Canada, 154 00:08:35.440 --> 00:08:37.320 one of the first things that they brought with them 155 00:08:37.399 --> 00:08:41.320 was actually fire suppression. And as they moved kind of 156 00:08:41.399 --> 00:08:46.480 west across Canada, they basically just put into place fire 157 00:08:46.519 --> 00:08:50.000 suppression policies wherever they went. And the big reason for 158 00:08:50.080 --> 00:08:52.600 that was, you know that they saw the forest of 159 00:08:52.720 --> 00:08:56.559 this wilderness is this kind of natural place. But really 160 00:08:56.720 --> 00:08:59.360 now we know, like and lots of scientific studies now 161 00:08:59.360 --> 00:09:02.320 are pointing out the that wasn't natural, Like many of 162 00:09:02.360 --> 00:09:06.000 those areas were actually stewarded by indigenous people to look 163 00:09:06.039 --> 00:09:09.080 that way. Actually, the first fire suppression campaign was in 164 00:09:09.159 --> 00:09:12.840 sixteen ten in Newfoundland in Canada, where that was like 165 00:09:12.919 --> 00:09:15.200 kind of the first you know, enactment of you know, 166 00:09:15.360 --> 00:09:18.559 thou shelt not light fires on the landscape. 167 00:09:18.840 --> 00:09:21.679 Amy says that she's from northern Alberta and there were 168 00:09:21.679 --> 00:09:25.519 only two fire rangers for the entire province. 169 00:09:27.279 --> 00:09:30.600 So even though they had like a fire suppression policy. 170 00:09:30.840 --> 00:09:33.480 You know, those guys couldn't be everywhere obviously, so there 171 00:09:33.519 --> 00:09:35.879 was still a lot of cultural burning that went on. 172 00:09:36.399 --> 00:09:38.799 So I would say that in where I'm from, it 173 00:09:38.879 --> 00:09:42.279 really only kind of stopped or halted around the sixties 174 00:09:42.360 --> 00:09:46.039 or the seventies where fire really stopped being allowed on 175 00:09:46.080 --> 00:09:49.360 the landscape in the north. And what we've seen with that, 176 00:09:49.519 --> 00:09:52.720 you know, is just a massive increase in fuel loading 177 00:09:52.759 --> 00:09:56.879 and also kind of these like monoculture forests where there 178 00:09:56.879 --> 00:10:00.279 are the stands are you know, all one speci these 179 00:10:00.399 --> 00:10:04.360 like all similar age, and they're really vulnerable to pests. 180 00:10:04.399 --> 00:10:08.320 There's other disturbances like fire, and so we're getting these massive, 181 00:10:08.320 --> 00:10:12.279 big fire events that have come through. And so for 182 00:10:12.360 --> 00:10:15.720 indigenous people, you know, like my family and others, they 183 00:10:15.840 --> 00:10:19.440 my family were actually buffalo hunters, and they used fire 184 00:10:19.679 --> 00:10:22.679 in the buffalo hunt, but also afterwards to improve the 185 00:10:22.720 --> 00:10:26.039 habitat for buffalo and other things that to help them 186 00:10:26.039 --> 00:10:29.759 in their hunting. When the settlers started coming across and 187 00:10:29.799 --> 00:10:32.279 saying like no, you can't do this, like you don't 188 00:10:32.279 --> 00:10:35.000 know as much as us, like, you know, it really 189 00:10:35.039 --> 00:10:38.120 devalued indigenous people and their knowledge and then when you 190 00:10:38.200 --> 00:10:41.080 add into that, you know, we had residential schools in 191 00:10:41.120 --> 00:10:44.519 Canada where indigenous people you know, were sent there and 192 00:10:44.600 --> 00:10:48.120 basically told you know that, you know, it said they 193 00:10:48.120 --> 00:10:51.440 were savages, that their way of knowing their family, of 194 00:10:51.519 --> 00:10:54.480 knowing the earth wasn't proper, and you know that they 195 00:10:54.519 --> 00:10:56.919 had to learn this new way that was much better. 196 00:10:57.080 --> 00:11:00.720 So we, like my colleagues fives a mula. He was 197 00:11:00.759 --> 00:11:04.960 telling me that they called that like a cultural severance activity, 198 00:11:05.000 --> 00:11:08.799 where basically you're just told that, you know, suddenly you know, 199 00:11:08.840 --> 00:11:12.480 you cannot practice your culture anymore. And so the impacts 200 00:11:12.519 --> 00:11:16.559 of that are just massive on people, not only on like, 201 00:11:16.840 --> 00:11:19.559 you know, their ability to use fire, but also just 202 00:11:19.600 --> 00:11:22.039 on who they are as a person, their pride and 203 00:11:22.080 --> 00:11:25.159 their family and other things. And so I too, like 204 00:11:25.279 --> 00:11:28.039 even now I still have a lot of anger about that, 205 00:11:28.240 --> 00:11:31.039 and you know how I wasn't able to learn from 206 00:11:31.080 --> 00:11:35.519 my elders about landscape, stewardship and other things because of that, 207 00:11:35.559 --> 00:11:38.440 you know, like kind of dominant Western worldview. 208 00:11:38.919 --> 00:11:41.639 Do you know or has there been research into how 209 00:11:41.720 --> 00:11:43.879 much of that knowledge is lost? 210 00:11:44.480 --> 00:11:47.120 Yeah? So actually Henry and Lewis, who is a researcher, 211 00:11:47.360 --> 00:11:49.759 he actually started in California, but then was at the 212 00:11:49.879 --> 00:11:51.279 University of Alberta. 213 00:11:51.360 --> 00:11:56.279 Doctor Henry T. Lewis aka Hank was an anthropology professor 214 00:11:56.360 --> 00:11:58.799 at the University of Alberta and was one of the 215 00:11:58.799 --> 00:12:03.120 first researchers to really document indigenous fire stewardship and its 216 00:12:03.200 --> 00:12:05.840 role in shaping the landscape. And he wrote the paper 217 00:12:06.039 --> 00:12:08.639 A Time for Burning. It was published in nineteen eighty 218 00:12:08.639 --> 00:12:11.559 two and a PDF to it is linked on my site. 219 00:12:11.639 --> 00:12:15.279 It's typewritten on a typewriter, it's wild and it details 220 00:12:15.360 --> 00:12:18.240 all of the different biomes and how indigenous cultures shaped 221 00:12:18.279 --> 00:12:22.679 them with fire and if you're like no reading, need visuals. 222 00:12:23.039 --> 00:12:27.279 He also made a sixteen millimeters documentary titled The Fire's Spring. 223 00:12:27.639 --> 00:12:30.159 All of this was managed by people who had developed 224 00:12:30.159 --> 00:12:34.799 a complex technology of fire to assure a continued successful 225 00:12:34.799 --> 00:12:37.000 adjustment to the northern ural forest. 226 00:12:37.240 --> 00:12:39.320 Somehow this ended up on YouTube. 227 00:12:39.480 --> 00:12:42.919 Hank god he went up and worked with the woodland 228 00:12:43.080 --> 00:12:46.960 kreen Denny people in northern Alberta, so actually kind of 229 00:12:46.960 --> 00:12:50.000 where my family's from as well. And what he was 230 00:12:50.039 --> 00:12:52.960 saying within the nineteen seventies when he did his work 231 00:12:53.000 --> 00:12:56.000 that he thought that between ninety and ninety five percent 232 00:12:56.039 --> 00:12:58.879 of that knowledge had been lost, So I mean that 233 00:12:59.080 --> 00:13:01.320 was now like as hard to believe it almost fifty 234 00:13:01.399 --> 00:13:04.399 years ago, right when that was happening. So for me, 235 00:13:04.600 --> 00:13:08.679 like I often hear people say in meetings like you know, 236 00:13:08.879 --> 00:13:12.360 oh well, indigenous knowledge is inapplicable to today and cultural 237 00:13:12.399 --> 00:13:15.840 burning practices because you know, now we have climate change, 238 00:13:15.879 --> 00:13:18.840 like now there's more values on the landscape in terms 239 00:13:18.879 --> 00:13:22.480 of thinking about structures and other things. But I always 240 00:13:22.600 --> 00:13:25.919 argue against that because for me, like, it's not about 241 00:13:27.080 --> 00:13:31.279 like indigenous people, like we're alive today, we're part of society, 242 00:13:31.440 --> 00:13:34.840 like we see all these things, like indigenous people are 243 00:13:34.879 --> 00:13:37.600 on the front lines of climate change, like of course 244 00:13:37.720 --> 00:13:41.960 we don't if that's occurring. And you know, indigenous knowledge, 245 00:13:42.120 --> 00:13:45.039 the most beautiful thing about it is how adaptable it 246 00:13:45.120 --> 00:13:49.720 is to the local environment. So like for like, because 247 00:13:49.759 --> 00:13:53.080 you know you're living in that environment, you're dependent on it. 248 00:13:53.639 --> 00:13:56.600 Okay, So Amy's internet cut out again, so we tried 249 00:13:56.679 --> 00:13:58.879 a new way of recording just via the phone and 250 00:13:58.919 --> 00:14:01.600 her laptop, and it sounds much better, which is great. 251 00:14:01.840 --> 00:14:03.879 So clear in fact, you may even be able to 252 00:14:03.919 --> 00:14:07.360 discern the pitter pattern of children's footsteps on the cabin 253 00:14:07.440 --> 00:14:10.000 stairs as her family vacationed around her. 254 00:14:10.639 --> 00:14:14.840 Hi, maybe this will work. I can hear you great 255 00:14:15.080 --> 00:14:16.919 at home. It's funny because I have a pretty good 256 00:14:16.919 --> 00:14:21.919 setup with a podcasting microphone, headphones, and of course I'm like, oh, 257 00:14:21.960 --> 00:14:24.600 it's this week when I'm gone, But no worries. 258 00:14:25.200 --> 00:14:28.639 But where were we? Yes that indigenous fire knowledge is 259 00:14:28.679 --> 00:14:32.159 starting to get more attention as climate change worsens and 260 00:14:32.240 --> 00:14:36.360 larger fires erupt. And as a fire scientist, what is 261 00:14:36.399 --> 00:14:37.080 her workday? 262 00:14:37.200 --> 00:14:41.039 Like? Sure, yeah, So with my job with the CFS, 263 00:14:41.080 --> 00:14:44.279 I most fire research scientists, I say, kind of do 264 00:14:44.559 --> 00:14:48.080 the same thing. So we have our research projects that 265 00:14:48.120 --> 00:14:50.080 we run or that we're a part of. So a 266 00:14:50.120 --> 00:14:53.159 lot of my day is actually kind of meeting about 267 00:14:53.200 --> 00:14:56.679 research and other things that are going on. So really 268 00:14:56.720 --> 00:15:00.840 similar to like you know, an academic researcher for me university. 269 00:15:01.360 --> 00:15:03.360 But then as well, we also kind of have the 270 00:15:03.360 --> 00:15:06.440 policy or the government side, So I said, on a 271 00:15:06.480 --> 00:15:10.519 lot of like national or international committees or working groups, 272 00:15:10.879 --> 00:15:13.960 you know, looking at fire and trying to direct policy. 273 00:15:14.840 --> 00:15:18.639 We just recently in Canada finished the blueprint for Wildland 274 00:15:18.639 --> 00:15:22.720 Fire Science for twenty nineteen to twenty twenty nine. So 275 00:15:22.879 --> 00:15:26.320 looking at you know, topics that we should really be 276 00:15:27.440 --> 00:15:31.200 spending money basically in time doing research on. And one 277 00:15:31.240 --> 00:15:35.120 of those the themes from that was actually on indigenous fires. 278 00:15:35.200 --> 00:15:39.519 So we also have an evacuation database actually with the 279 00:15:39.559 --> 00:15:44.440 Canadian Forces, where we've tracked wildfire evacuations in Canada since 280 00:15:44.559 --> 00:15:48.360 nineteen eighty. So during this summer, like that's one thing 281 00:15:48.480 --> 00:15:50.720 is that we have like lots of our staff working 282 00:15:50.759 --> 00:15:53.720 on that doing data entry into it. Yeah, it's a 283 00:15:53.759 --> 00:15:57.039 big job this summer. Like in twenty twenty, I think 284 00:15:57.080 --> 00:16:00.840 we only had twenty different evacuations in Canada, but this 285 00:16:00.960 --> 00:16:02.960 year I think we're already at one hundred and twenty 286 00:16:03.000 --> 00:16:06.840 five different evacuation events. So it's a huge job. 287 00:16:07.440 --> 00:16:11.120 So this Blueprint for a Wildland Fire Science in Canada 288 00:16:11.159 --> 00:16:14.799 twenty nineteen to twenty twenty nine outlines, in its own words, 289 00:16:15.000 --> 00:16:19.159 a business case to increase investment in wildland fire science. 290 00:16:19.360 --> 00:16:22.559 And it is fifty seven pages of really great strategies 291 00:16:22.639 --> 00:16:27.960 covering themes like understanding fire in a changing world, recognizing 292 00:16:28.000 --> 00:16:32.200 Indigenous knowledge, and enhancing knowledge exchange mechanisms to improve the 293 00:16:32.200 --> 00:16:35.600 ways in which wildland fire science and technology are shared, understood, 294 00:16:35.600 --> 00:16:38.720 and implemented. So Amy's team had been working on that, 295 00:16:38.919 --> 00:16:40.840 and for the curious, I will link to the full 296 00:16:40.879 --> 00:16:45.799 pdf on my website. Now, as far as the increasing evacuations, 297 00:16:46.159 --> 00:16:50.440 that issue gets more personal as this episode unfolds, even 298 00:16:50.519 --> 00:16:53.639 more personal than my parents in an hourly motel in RightNow. 299 00:16:54.080 --> 00:16:56.080 And this is something I think a lot of people 300 00:16:56.159 --> 00:17:00.080 have trouble wrapping their brain around, and maybe they're there 301 00:17:00.200 --> 00:17:04.960 is no good answer. But is it climate change? Is 302 00:17:05.000 --> 00:17:11.640 it human ignition and carelessness? Is it not letting the 303 00:17:11.720 --> 00:17:15.440 forest burn? Is it naturally would how do you scientists 304 00:17:15.480 --> 00:17:19.000 come up with plans to tackle this issue if it's 305 00:17:19.079 --> 00:17:20.799 kind of like a trifle problem. 306 00:17:21.640 --> 00:17:24.400 Yeah, I agree with you. It's just such a complex issue. 307 00:17:24.400 --> 00:17:27.000 I mean, there's also the fact that people are just 308 00:17:27.160 --> 00:17:30.440 building more in you know, areas that are of higher 309 00:17:30.599 --> 00:17:33.559 risk to fire. You know, as communities get larger and 310 00:17:33.640 --> 00:17:36.440 kind of expand out into what you know, some people 311 00:17:36.480 --> 00:17:40.640 call the wildline urban interface, it's really increasing fire risks. 312 00:17:40.759 --> 00:17:42.559 I think that that's the hard thing too, is that 313 00:17:42.599 --> 00:17:48.519 there's no magic bullet solution, right like even with cultural burning, 314 00:17:48.599 --> 00:17:51.519 Like you know, I'm such a strong proponent of getting 315 00:17:51.519 --> 00:17:54.319 that back on the ground, but that doesn't at all 316 00:17:54.400 --> 00:17:57.359 tackle you know, how vulnerable some homes and other things 317 00:17:57.400 --> 00:17:58.680 are to fire at the moment. 318 00:17:59.119 --> 00:18:02.240 Climate change, she said, is also a pretty big frickin deal. 319 00:18:02.559 --> 00:18:05.240 But the one thing you know that I think locally, 320 00:18:05.440 --> 00:18:07.359 like you know, in our towns and stuff, that we 321 00:18:07.480 --> 00:18:10.960 can control is the fuels that are available to burn. 322 00:18:11.480 --> 00:18:14.640 And so that's why, you know, I think that cultural 323 00:18:14.680 --> 00:18:18.680 burning or landscape level fuel management as well as the 324 00:18:18.720 --> 00:18:23.000 community wildfare mitigation is so important to do in combination. 325 00:18:23.160 --> 00:18:25.720 And lately too, I've been seeing I don't know if 326 00:18:25.759 --> 00:18:27.599 you are seeing it in the States as much, but 327 00:18:27.680 --> 00:18:29.680 in Canada there's a bit of a movement to just 328 00:18:29.799 --> 00:18:33.359 kind of you know, fireproof communities or you know, keep 329 00:18:33.720 --> 00:18:38.440 homes or you know, structures safe from fire. But to me, 330 00:18:38.519 --> 00:18:42.400 that's really missing the point of like the landscape around 331 00:18:42.400 --> 00:18:45.599 your home. Like for me, I don't want to be living, 332 00:18:45.720 --> 00:18:48.480 you know, if my home is standing in like the 333 00:18:48.519 --> 00:18:51.759 middle of you know, a black and landscaping. In Canada, 334 00:18:51.839 --> 00:18:54.640 it can take a long time for the force to regenerate, 335 00:18:55.079 --> 00:18:58.480 sometimes you know, twenty thirty forty years, and even then 336 00:18:58.680 --> 00:19:01.400 they're finding up north in the Boyal forests, the burns 337 00:19:01.440 --> 00:19:04.279 are just so hot that they're basically kind of killing 338 00:19:04.680 --> 00:19:09.440 the soil and any vegetation around. So, yeah, it's quite 339 00:19:09.480 --> 00:19:12.839 a complex issue. But I think when I think as 340 00:19:12.880 --> 00:19:15.559 an indigenous person, I look at the forest, I don't 341 00:19:15.599 --> 00:19:18.400 just see it as trees or timber values or other things. 342 00:19:18.720 --> 00:19:20.720 You see it as like part of who you are, 343 00:19:20.839 --> 00:19:24.559 right like your relations So you want to be able 344 00:19:24.599 --> 00:19:28.079 to you know, steward and protect that area as much 345 00:19:28.079 --> 00:19:30.960 as you do you know, your own home or structure. 346 00:19:31.400 --> 00:19:36.160 And can you describe a little bit about prescribed fires 347 00:19:36.440 --> 00:19:42.480 and indigenous fire stewardship versus cultural burns. I think a 348 00:19:42.480 --> 00:19:44.440 lot of people maybe want to lump them in together, 349 00:19:44.480 --> 00:19:46.440 but can you describe a little bit about how they 350 00:19:46.480 --> 00:19:47.480 work or what they are. 351 00:19:48.400 --> 00:19:50.920 Yeah, so there's a bit of a danger of that 352 00:19:51.000 --> 00:19:54.039 this whole thing now where we're seeing prescribed fire and 353 00:19:54.119 --> 00:19:58.640 just kind of throwing cultural burning into that. So prescribe 354 00:19:58.720 --> 00:20:01.880 fire is you know, you know generally what agencies do, 355 00:20:02.039 --> 00:20:05.519 so where they're setting fire on the landscape, but in 356 00:20:05.599 --> 00:20:09.599 many cases they're setting you know, high severity fires. It's 357 00:20:09.599 --> 00:20:12.680 burning really fast and they want to burn a lot 358 00:20:12.720 --> 00:20:15.279 of land in a little bit of time. So we 359 00:20:15.400 --> 00:20:19.079 see like lots of aerial ignition of fires we see 360 00:20:19.200 --> 00:20:24.480 them using, you know, basically like helicopter ignition, and in Canada, 361 00:20:24.559 --> 00:20:27.400 like lots of times, people put that together as you know, 362 00:20:27.480 --> 00:20:30.039 being a crown fire being these big, bad, kind of 363 00:20:30.079 --> 00:20:32.759 out of control fires that are burning up you know, 364 00:20:32.960 --> 00:20:36.359 mountain sides. That's generally the media that we see in 365 00:20:36.400 --> 00:20:41.039 Canada about prescribed fire, But it really differs from cultural 366 00:20:41.079 --> 00:20:45.039 burning because cultural burning is more about achieving a cultural 367 00:20:45.079 --> 00:20:48.960 objective around the forest around where you live, So you 368 00:20:49.000 --> 00:20:52.559 don't really want to have these big, large, stand replacing 369 00:20:52.599 --> 00:20:56.039 fires that go through and and can kill everything in 370 00:20:56.079 --> 00:21:01.319 a prescribed fire event. That sometimes is what happens in Ca. Yeah, 371 00:21:01.440 --> 00:21:04.039 So for cultural fire too, the thing is that most 372 00:21:04.079 --> 00:21:07.759 fires are actually pretty low intensity. In Australia they call 373 00:21:07.799 --> 00:21:10.759 them like slow burns or cool burns, and they generally 374 00:21:10.880 --> 00:21:14.960 move through the understory and they're done it certain times 375 00:21:14.960 --> 00:21:19.880 of year where the potential fire behavior is very low risks, 376 00:21:19.960 --> 00:21:22.720 so you know where you're not getting, you know, potential 377 00:21:22.720 --> 00:21:25.799 of crown fire. There's lots of natural fuel breaks around 378 00:21:25.799 --> 00:21:29.519 the fire. In Canada that's usually snow still on the ground. 379 00:21:30.119 --> 00:21:33.599 For indigenous people, cultural burning too is like a family 380 00:21:33.640 --> 00:21:36.400 a community activity, so like when I'm doing burns and 381 00:21:36.440 --> 00:21:40.200 things like I take my daughters. My mom was on 382 00:21:40.279 --> 00:21:41.680 the last one that we did. 383 00:21:42.119 --> 00:21:44.200 There's a great photo that's run in a few news 384 00:21:44.240 --> 00:21:47.599 articles about Amy's work, and she's standing in a golden 385 00:21:47.880 --> 00:21:51.519 grassy field. It's hazy with smoke as a cultural burn 386 00:21:51.559 --> 00:21:55.119 grass fire she's overseeing lurches behind her, and there's a 387 00:21:55.200 --> 00:21:57.839 husky wolfy dog sitting to her right staring off. And 388 00:21:57.880 --> 00:22:01.119 Amy's wearing black leggings and a red flannel shirt and 389 00:22:01.279 --> 00:22:04.039 is pregnant with what would be her second daughter. So 390 00:22:04.079 --> 00:22:07.599 the mood is very calm, unlike what most people's experience 391 00:22:07.680 --> 00:22:09.559 of land on fire might be. 392 00:22:10.160 --> 00:22:13.200 Lots of times, you know, we don't wear personal protective equipment, 393 00:22:13.279 --> 00:22:15.359 you know, like the kind of gnomes that you usually 394 00:22:15.359 --> 00:22:20.000 see firefighters wearing, because usually the fires are honestly just 395 00:22:20.160 --> 00:22:23.720 so slow and most people find them I think a 396 00:22:23.720 --> 00:22:26.200 bit boring too, because it can take a really long 397 00:22:26.279 --> 00:22:29.839 time to burn a really small piece of land, and 398 00:22:29.920 --> 00:22:33.240 so for agencies it doesn't really work well, right because 399 00:22:33.240 --> 00:22:36.559 that for them means more staffing, dollars and other things 400 00:22:36.920 --> 00:22:39.920 to achieve, like you know, a smaller area burned. 401 00:22:40.440 --> 00:22:46.039