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True Murder with your 32 00:01:34.719 --> 00:01:37.879 host journalist and author Dan Zupanski. 33 00:01:47.959 --> 00:01:52.120 Good Evening. Fifty years ago, a serial killer proud the 34 00:01:52.239 --> 00:01:56.560 quiet city of London, Ontario, marking it as his hunting grounds. 35 00:01:57.400 --> 00:02:01.560 As young women and boys were abducted, raped, murdered, residents 36 00:02:01.599 --> 00:02:04.319 of the area held their loved ones closer and closer, 37 00:02:04.879 --> 00:02:10.400 terrified of the monster or monsters stocking the streets. Homicide 38 00:02:10.439 --> 00:02:14.400 detective Denis Alcep began hunting the killer in the nineteen sixties, 39 00:02:14.840 --> 00:02:17.879 and he didn't stop searching until his death forty years later. 40 00:02:18.719 --> 00:02:23.120 For decades, detective's actual and arm chair and the victims 41 00:02:23.120 --> 00:02:26.759 families and friends continued to ask questions who was the 42 00:02:26.759 --> 00:02:30.360 Forest City Killer. Was there more than one person? Or 43 00:02:30.439 --> 00:02:33.759 did a depraved individual commit all of these crimes on 44 00:02:33.840 --> 00:02:38.479 his own? Combing through the files, Detective Alcep left behind 45 00:02:39.080 --> 00:02:44.319 research of Vanessa Brown reopens the cases, revealing previously unpublished 46 00:02:44.319 --> 00:02:50.039 witness statements, details of evidence, and astonishing revelations. And through 47 00:02:50.080 --> 00:02:55.120 her investigation, Vanessa posits the unthinkable. Is it possible that 48 00:02:55.159 --> 00:02:58.080 the Forest City Killer is still alive and, like the 49 00:02:58.120 --> 00:03:02.599 notorious Golden State Killer, a simple DNA test could bring 50 00:03:02.680 --> 00:03:05.879 him to justice. The book that we're featuring this evening 51 00:03:06.080 --> 00:03:10.120 is The Forest City Killer, a serial murderer, a cold 52 00:03:10.159 --> 00:03:13.960 case sleuth, and a search for justice with my special guest, 53 00:03:14.000 --> 00:03:17.719 researcher and author Vanessa Brown. Welcome to the program, and 54 00:03:17.759 --> 00:03:20.680 thank you very much for agreeing to this interview. Vanessa Brown. 55 00:03:22.400 --> 00:03:24.240 Hi, Van, it's great to be here. 56 00:03:25.319 --> 00:03:28.719 Thank you very much for joining me with this incredible book, 57 00:03:28.719 --> 00:03:32.840 The Forest City Killer. Tell our audience a little bit 58 00:03:32.879 --> 00:03:37.919 about before we start about your occupation and your background 59 00:03:38.400 --> 00:03:41.680 and your interest in all things London. Tell us a 60 00:03:41.680 --> 00:03:45.000 little bit about your background before we talk about your 61 00:03:45.639 --> 00:03:49.680 faithful meeting with Dennis Alcep Junior. 62 00:03:51.319 --> 00:03:56.240 Sure, my day job is at a bookstore. I own 63 00:03:56.680 --> 00:04:01.039 with my husband an antiquarian bookstore in downtown and so 64 00:04:01.319 --> 00:04:05.759 an antiquarian bookstore. In addition to having general used books 65 00:04:05.800 --> 00:04:11.280 for people to enjoy and read, we also specialized in 66 00:04:11.400 --> 00:04:16.240 rare books, so first editions, signed editions, hard to find, 67 00:04:16.319 --> 00:04:21.519 limited prints, paper matter, old letters, the semera, and all 68 00:04:21.560 --> 00:04:24.199 sorts of interesting things anything printed on paper. 69 00:04:24.839 --> 00:04:27.040 So that's my day job, and that. 70 00:04:27.120 --> 00:04:31.800 Means I work a lot in researching history and the 71 00:04:31.839 --> 00:04:36.680 importance of cultural artifacts that come under my nose. And 72 00:04:36.759 --> 00:04:40.319 I also work a lot with libraries and archives. We 73 00:04:40.399 --> 00:04:43.399 really help members of the public who might have something special, 74 00:04:43.879 --> 00:04:47.079 something unique or interesting that should be kept in an archive. 75 00:04:47.560 --> 00:04:51.839 We help them get in touch with those librarians and archivists. 76 00:04:52.439 --> 00:04:54.920 And we also find things ourselves sometimes when we're out 77 00:04:54.959 --> 00:04:59.360 hunting for material. So you know, I've developed an understanding, 78 00:04:59.480 --> 00:05:03.040 I think more than the average person about how libraries 79 00:05:03.040 --> 00:05:05.920 and archives work and the kind of resources that are 80 00:05:05.920 --> 00:05:09.000 available for members of the public to access when it 81 00:05:09.000 --> 00:05:13.000 comes to doing research. But I'm also a lifelong Londoner. 82 00:05:13.360 --> 00:05:17.839 I've lived here my entire life, and you know, it's 83 00:05:17.879 --> 00:05:21.560 a community that I love. So my previous two books 84 00:05:21.600 --> 00:05:24.879 are about London, Ontario and its history. I wrote a 85 00:05:24.879 --> 00:05:28.959 book about a historic hotel that's no longer here, and 86 00:05:29.000 --> 00:05:32.000 my husband and I wrote a book about one hundred 87 00:05:32.040 --> 00:05:35.879 and fifty cultural moments in London's history. So, in addition 88 00:05:35.920 --> 00:05:38.160 to being an antiquarian bookseller, I think I'm a. 89 00:05:38.079 --> 00:05:39.519 Bit of a local history buff. 90 00:05:40.000 --> 00:05:42.000 I like to know what's happened in my city, and 91 00:05:42.519 --> 00:05:45.279 I like the unusual aspects of my city's history. 92 00:05:46.040 --> 00:05:47.959 So, you know, we all can. 93 00:05:48.240 --> 00:05:50.279 You can look in any history book about London to 94 00:05:50.319 --> 00:05:54.639 find out about its founding and important businesses and schools 95 00:05:54.680 --> 00:05:57.319 and churches and all of those things. But to me, 96 00:05:57.399 --> 00:06:00.439 the really interesting stories are the odd balls that are 97 00:06:00.480 --> 00:06:04.959 harder to find, that really tell the story about how 98 00:06:05.000 --> 00:06:07.279 our city became the unique place that it is. 99 00:06:09.240 --> 00:06:12.600 You write about a book you discovered in twenty fifteen 100 00:06:13.079 --> 00:06:18.199 from Michael Arnfield, a book called Murder City. What does 101 00:06:18.240 --> 00:06:23.439 he suggest in that book? And you talk about the 102 00:06:23.519 --> 00:06:27.600 anomaly that was that he refers to he suggests about London. 103 00:06:28.399 --> 00:06:30.720 Tell us about the population of London, a little bit 104 00:06:30.759 --> 00:06:34.639 about its access to Toronto and Detroit, and tell us 105 00:06:34.800 --> 00:06:39.120 about Michael Arnfield's book and his suggestion. 106 00:06:40.839 --> 00:06:44.680 Sure, Mike Arnfield is a professor of at Western University, 107 00:06:45.160 --> 00:06:48.160 and in twenty fifteen he released a book called Murder 108 00:06:48.199 --> 00:06:52.720 City about London, Ontario and the anomalous number of serial 109 00:06:52.839 --> 00:06:56.319 killers that were here, mainly in the nineteen sixties and 110 00:06:56.439 --> 00:07:01.680 nineteen seventies. He purported that London is the serial killer 111 00:07:01.759 --> 00:07:05.839 capital of Canada, if not the world. Now, I can't 112 00:07:05.879 --> 00:07:09.240 speak to that thesis. I'm not a criminologist or a sociologist, 113 00:07:09.360 --> 00:07:13.319 but it immediately grabbed my attention and I met with Mike, 114 00:07:13.560 --> 00:07:16.879 I interviewed him, I reviewed his book for a local publication, 115 00:07:17.560 --> 00:07:19.920 and I was sort of hooked on the subject matter. 116 00:07:21.240 --> 00:07:23.920 In Mike's book, one of the things he talks about 117 00:07:24.000 --> 00:07:28.720 is London's unique makeup as a silo city. So you 118 00:07:28.839 --> 00:07:34.120 have these sort of independent silo communities where people are 119 00:07:34.360 --> 00:07:38.120 very self referential, but it creates these little pockets of independence, 120 00:07:38.160 --> 00:07:40.560 and it's very good for test markets. 121 00:07:41.079 --> 00:07:43.279 So London's been. 122 00:07:42.720 --> 00:07:44.879 Known as a test market city, and I like to 123 00:07:44.879 --> 00:07:48.480 say we were the test market for chicken McNuggets, for 124 00:07:48.839 --> 00:07:52.279 Tim Horton's Dark Roast coffee, and unfortunately, we were a 125 00:07:52.319 --> 00:07:57.160 test market for serial killers. London is located, of course 126 00:07:57.879 --> 00:08:02.879 equidescent between Detroit and Toronto along a super highway like 127 00:08:02.920 --> 00:08:03.560 an interstate. 128 00:08:04.639 --> 00:08:06.720 So it's a very easy. 129 00:08:06.399 --> 00:08:09.040 City to come in and get out of quickly if 130 00:08:09.160 --> 00:08:09.720 you need to. 131 00:08:10.720 --> 00:08:15.800 And it's sort of a waspy, conservative place. And in 132 00:08:15.879 --> 00:08:18.079 nineteen sixty eight, when the. 133 00:08:18.079 --> 00:08:21.040 Spate of murders, the main section of murders in my 134 00:08:21.079 --> 00:08:25.959 book starts, the city had a population of about one 135 00:08:26.040 --> 00:08:30.040 hundred and sixty thousand people, And of course that included 136 00:08:30.120 --> 00:08:34.000 some annexed rural territory around the city that had been 137 00:08:34.120 --> 00:08:37.639 annexed the year before, so that's actually an elevated number 138 00:08:38.159 --> 00:08:41.440 of the population was probably something more like one hundred 139 00:08:41.440 --> 00:08:43.559 and forty or one hundred and thirty thousand in the 140 00:08:43.559 --> 00:08:47.759 city proper. So it's not a big place. And in 141 00:08:47.960 --> 00:08:52.799 two years we have nine unsolved homicide sexual homicide related 142 00:08:52.799 --> 00:08:55.559 to women and children, and that's the focus of my book. 143 00:08:57.840 --> 00:09:01.480 Now, you write that when you were reading Michael Arn'tfield's 144 00:09:01.480 --> 00:09:04.759 book Murder City, that you read in particular about the 145 00:09:04.840 --> 00:09:08.960 Jackie English case, and you said that despite being you know, 146 00:09:09.000 --> 00:09:11.480 a local history buff, you didn't know about a lot 147 00:09:11.559 --> 00:09:14.440 of these unsolved cases. They really did. You weren't aware 148 00:09:14.879 --> 00:09:19.240 whatsoever and reading about Jackie English's case and your research 149 00:09:20.559 --> 00:09:24.679 you found Dennis Alsop Junior tell us about this faithful 150 00:09:24.759 --> 00:09:29.879 meeting between you both and how it came that you met. 151 00:09:30.279 --> 00:09:31.320 What were you looking at on them? 152 00:09:33.159 --> 00:09:36.720 I was looking at this incredible website called Unsolved Canada 153 00:09:37.279 --> 00:09:42.000 dot ca, which is unfortunately no longer working, and that's 154 00:09:42.399 --> 00:09:46.519 very disappointing because it was an incredible treasure traive of information, 155 00:09:47.120 --> 00:09:52.440 kind of like Canadian webslutes, but even more so, there 156 00:09:52.440 --> 00:09:56.519 were you know, family members, victims, family members and community 157 00:09:56.559 --> 00:09:59.960 members really working hard together and bringing all their skills 158 00:10:00.080 --> 00:10:02.960 to the table to try and solve these crimes on 159 00:10:03.000 --> 00:10:03.399 their own. 160 00:10:04.240 --> 00:10:06.600 People going into the archives. 161 00:10:06.159 --> 00:10:11.399 And paying for reproductions of photos, maps, there were people 162 00:10:11.960 --> 00:10:16.480 doing you know, pseudo scientific testing on car paint in 163 00:10:16.600 --> 00:10:22.519 different lights, historic car paint colors, and you know, water testing. 164 00:10:22.039 --> 00:10:24.559 And all sorts of It's really very. 165 00:10:24.399 --> 00:10:28.080 Impressive what this community of people were doing. So when 166 00:10:28.120 --> 00:10:32.000 I read Murder City, I found that website of course, 167 00:10:32.120 --> 00:10:37.320 just googling the cases, and that was impressive. But of 168 00:10:37.360 --> 00:10:41.279 course Mike wrote about Dennis Junior in his book, and 169 00:10:41.320 --> 00:10:46.679 I guess I should tell you who Dennis is. Dennis 170 00:10:46.840 --> 00:10:50.200 Alsop Senior was the lead investigator on the Jackie English 171 00:10:50.279 --> 00:10:53.679 murderer and the other murders that took place that are 172 00:10:53.759 --> 00:10:57.159 unsolved and insults as well, but mainly the unsolved cases. 173 00:10:57.759 --> 00:11:00.679 And he died in twenty twelve and his son was 174 00:11:00.720 --> 00:11:04.720 going through his things. He found three banker's boxes filled 175 00:11:04.759 --> 00:11:08.679 with notes and files from his father's time as a 176 00:11:08.679 --> 00:11:12.600 homicide investigator for the Ontario Provincial Police, which is sort 177 00:11:12.639 --> 00:11:17.919 of like our state police, I guess for your American listeners. 178 00:11:17.960 --> 00:11:18.879 And Dennis has. 179 00:11:19.200 --> 00:11:23.399 Had looked through all of these and he realized that 180 00:11:23.440 --> 00:11:26.639 there were answers for the family members in those files, 181 00:11:27.919 --> 00:11:29.840 people who didn't know what had happened to their loved 182 00:11:29.879 --> 00:11:32.399 ones and didn't realize, you know, there was more information 183 00:11:32.480 --> 00:11:33.519 I think that they were given. 184 00:11:34.320 --> 00:11:36.240 So, you know, Dennis. 185 00:11:35.840 --> 00:11:39.320 Felt this responsibility to carry on his father's legacy, and 186 00:11:39.960 --> 00:11:42.720 the Jackie English case in particular was one that he 187 00:11:42.840 --> 00:11:50.080 had continued to work on until his death. So Dennis Junior, sorry, 188 00:11:50.080 --> 00:11:56.480 go ahead, no, go ahead. Dennis Junior had wanted to 189 00:11:56.519 --> 00:11:59.759 reach out to the families, but that's a very sort 190 00:11:59.759 --> 00:12:04.559 of not tedious, a challenging task. You want to make 191 00:12:04.600 --> 00:12:07.039 sure that you don't offend people, or bring up terrible 192 00:12:07.080 --> 00:12:09.759 memories for them, or hurt them in any way. Some 193 00:12:09.799 --> 00:12:12.399 people don't want to talk about those kinds of tragedies, 194 00:12:12.440 --> 00:12:17.879 you know. So Dennis had been reading the newspaper and 195 00:12:17.919 --> 00:12:22.879 he read about the Walk for Jackie. The Walk for 196 00:12:23.000 --> 00:12:27.120 Jackie takes place every year, and Jackie English is one 197 00:12:27.120 --> 00:12:30.080 of the murder victims the main focus of my book 198 00:12:30.360 --> 00:12:36.440 and her surviving sister, and English remembers her sister annually. 199 00:12:37.120 --> 00:12:40.840 She goes to the same place where her sister disappeared 200 00:12:41.600 --> 00:12:45.080 on the same date, at the same time, and she 201 00:12:46.279 --> 00:12:49.159 re walks what she calls her sister's last steps of 202 00:12:49.159 --> 00:12:50.360 freedom every year. 203 00:12:51.240 --> 00:12:52.919 And this was covered in the newspaper. 204 00:12:53.039 --> 00:12:58.080 And when Dennis Junior read the article, he thought this 205 00:12:58.279 --> 00:13:00.720 is a good opportunity to reach out because he could 206 00:13:00.759 --> 00:13:04.039 reach out through the newspaper reporter, so there was sort 207 00:13:04.039 --> 00:13:06.559 of a natural buffer there. And if Anne didn't want 208 00:13:06.600 --> 00:13:07.799 to talk to him, she didn't have to. 209 00:13:08.519 --> 00:13:11.919 But she did, of course. She wanted to know all the. 210 00:13:11.879 --> 00:13:16.720 Information Dennis had and connected them and that meeting really 211 00:13:17.240 --> 00:13:21.279 was a catalyst for all of the citizens, loops and 212 00:13:21.360 --> 00:13:23.960 community members who have been working to find resolution to 213 00:13:24.000 --> 00:13:27.039 these cases. Because it really opened up the door for 214 00:13:27.120 --> 00:13:30.159 any victims' families who wanted to find out more, to 215 00:13:30.320 --> 00:13:32.799 be able to talk to Dennis and see what his 216 00:13:32.879 --> 00:13:34.080 father had left behind. 217 00:13:35.679 --> 00:13:41.279 Right now, Dennis was an identification officer in special training 218 00:13:41.279 --> 00:13:46.039 and fingerprints, so he's especially valuable to the police. You 219 00:13:46.080 --> 00:13:55.279 talk about October nineteen sixty nine and Jackie English. You 220 00:13:55.360 --> 00:14:00.960 opened this book with this scene where detect Divalso becomes 221 00:14:00.960 --> 00:14:04.840 involved and he just gets a call. Of course he's 222 00:14:04.840 --> 00:14:07.279 doing something else, but he has to rush to this 223 00:14:07.360 --> 00:14:11.679 crime scene. Tell us about Jackie English a little bit 224 00:14:11.720 --> 00:14:14.759 about her background before we talk about her disappearance and 225 00:14:14.799 --> 00:14:15.960 then the investigation. 226 00:14:18.360 --> 00:14:20.960 Yeah, Jackie was a fifteen year old girl. 227 00:14:21.080 --> 00:14:26.039 She was born that April seventeenth was her birthday, and 228 00:14:26.120 --> 00:14:30.120 she she came from an interesting family. She had a 229 00:14:30.159 --> 00:14:32.120 single mom and she lived with her mom and her brother. 230 00:14:32.679 --> 00:14:35.440 Her older sister had moved away actually to live with 231 00:14:35.519 --> 00:14:40.399 her fiance in Hamilton, where her dad actually was in 232 00:14:40.440 --> 00:14:43.360 the hospital for cancer, so their family was. 233 00:14:43.360 --> 00:14:45.120 Sort of spread apart a little bit. 234 00:14:45.320 --> 00:14:47.759 But you know, Jackie had a home with her mom 235 00:14:47.840 --> 00:14:50.600 and her brother, and they were a working class family. 236 00:14:50.679 --> 00:14:54.879 They had jobs, they all worked and contributed to the household. 237 00:14:55.399 --> 00:14:57.440 So Jackie got a job. 238 00:14:57.480 --> 00:15:00.000 At the Latin Quarter restaurant, which was like a say 239 00:15:00.039 --> 00:15:02.879 and see restaurant in downtown London, and she got that 240 00:15:03.000 --> 00:15:05.960 job through her mom and they worked there together, and 241 00:15:06.360 --> 00:15:09.559 Jackie really enjoyed making money. So, you know, the summer 242 00:15:09.600 --> 00:15:13.000 when she was fifteen, she sort of made this decision 243 00:15:13.039 --> 00:15:15.679 that she was going to probably drop out of school 244 00:15:15.720 --> 00:15:18.720 and start working, which her mom did not approve of 245 00:15:18.720 --> 00:15:19.519 her dropping. 246 00:15:19.200 --> 00:15:20.279 Out of school. Actually she. 247 00:15:21.759 --> 00:15:24.200 Didn't tell her mom that she hadn't gone back to school. 248 00:15:24.240 --> 00:15:27.879 But she got a second job. And the second job 249 00:15:27.960 --> 00:15:31.480 was at this sort of discount mall in a plaza 250 00:15:32.480 --> 00:15:35.519 way out in the south end of the city. And 251 00:15:35.639 --> 00:15:38.000 of course, the posh restaurant she worked at with her 252 00:15:38.039 --> 00:15:42.000 mom was right downtown near their house, and this one 253 00:15:42.039 --> 00:15:44.759 was way out by the highway, so you actually had 254 00:15:44.759 --> 00:15:49.240 to cross over the overpass to get to the restaurant. 255 00:15:49.679 --> 00:15:52.600 And it was like a discount department store and it 256 00:15:52.679 --> 00:15:54.960 had a restaurant in it, like a diner, and she 257 00:15:55.120 --> 00:15:58.080 worked at the diner at the counter, serving customers as 258 00:15:58.080 --> 00:16:02.240 the waitress. So that was Jackie, And you know, she 259 00:16:02.440 --> 00:16:04.480 kept a diary and I was able to read that 260 00:16:04.600 --> 00:16:06.960 diary and sort of get to know her as a person, 261 00:16:07.759 --> 00:16:11.480 and she really was like a fun, loving, incredible fifteen 262 00:16:11.559 --> 00:16:14.519 year old girl. And you know, I think in a 263 00:16:14.519 --> 00:16:17.720 lot of true crimes, it's very easy to go back 264 00:16:17.799 --> 00:16:19.879 and sort of venerate the victims, you know, like she 265 00:16:20.000 --> 00:16:22.480 was a perfect angel and. 266 00:16:22.159 --> 00:16:22.600 All of that. 267 00:16:23.679 --> 00:16:27.440 I'm not gonna say that about Jackie. I don't think 268 00:16:27.440 --> 00:16:29.919 she was a perfect angel, but I think she was 269 00:16:30.080 --> 00:16:38.320 a very relatable, smart, fun young woman and she I 270 00:16:38.320 --> 00:16:41.120 think she would have been an awesome adult woman to know. 271 00:16:41.600 --> 00:16:44.279 She was no nonsense. She came from like a no 272 00:16:44.279 --> 00:16:51.080 nonsense family. She liked really colorful clothes. She wore taboo perfume, which, 273 00:16:51.519 --> 00:16:54.759 as anyone knows about perfumes, that's not it's no Chanelle 274 00:16:54.840 --> 00:16:55.320 number five. 275 00:16:55.399 --> 00:16:58.320 It's a distinctive sense. She was a. 276 00:16:58.320 --> 00:17:04.200 Strong personality, but also a very generous person. And she 277 00:17:04.200 --> 00:17:07.000 she was raised with the values of giving, you know, 278 00:17:07.039 --> 00:17:10.319 basically giving her paycheck to her family, so you know, 279 00:17:10.400 --> 00:17:13.000 they all worked together and there was this sort of 280 00:17:13.039 --> 00:17:17.119 a survival aspect to that which I really admire. So 281 00:17:17.519 --> 00:17:21.680 that was Jackie. She had I guess related to the case. 282 00:17:21.920 --> 00:17:26.079 You know, this was her first summer exploring, you know, 283 00:17:26.160 --> 00:17:30.039 being a little bit boy crazy, you know, noticing that 284 00:17:30.640 --> 00:17:32.319 older guys were looking at her. 285 00:17:32.960 --> 00:17:35.160 She was developing into, you know. 286 00:17:35.079 --> 00:17:39.559 A pretty attractive young lady, and she noticed that she 287 00:17:39.680 --> 00:17:44.599 got the attention she wanted. And she wasn't promiscuous, She 288 00:17:44.680 --> 00:17:47.519 wasn't living anything I would call a high risk lifestyle 289 00:17:47.599 --> 00:17:50.480 at all. She wasn't a party animal, but she was, 290 00:17:50.559 --> 00:17:52.960 you know, doing the normal fifteen year old things for 291 00:17:53.079 --> 00:17:54.559 nineteen sixty nine for sure. 292 00:17:57.680 --> 00:18:01.759 How is it that she goes missing and then immediately 293 00:18:02.559 --> 00:18:06.640 police look at people surrounding her and she has a boyfriend, 294 00:18:06.759 --> 00:18:11.240 then another interest at work, there's a search. Tell us 295 00:18:11.319 --> 00:18:16.000 about her disappearance, the search, What happens? What's everyone's reaction? 296 00:18:17.839 --> 00:18:19.960 Oh, people were worried right away. 297 00:18:20.039 --> 00:18:23.039 I mean Jackie was very independent, but she was also 298 00:18:23.200 --> 00:18:26.839 very reliable, Like was she held down two jobs. Well, 299 00:18:27.799 --> 00:18:30.440 she was mature beyond her years because of the life 300 00:18:30.480 --> 00:18:32.960 that she had led, and mature in a good way. 301 00:18:33.279 --> 00:18:35.279 So when she didn't show up for her shift. 302 00:18:35.440 --> 00:18:38.839 And she wasn't at home, people knew something was wrong immediately. 303 00:18:39.359 --> 00:18:41.880 So her mother checked her out of the hospital and 304 00:18:42.599 --> 00:18:46.359 checked herself out of the hospital. That was something I 305 00:18:46.440 --> 00:18:50.119 need to rewind here. When Jackie went missing after work, 306 00:18:51.720 --> 00:18:55.119 she usually got a ride home with her mom from 307 00:18:55.200 --> 00:18:58.640 her job at the Metropolitan, which it was, as I say, 308 00:18:59.559 --> 00:19:01.920 way on the edge of town, like there was you 309 00:19:01.960 --> 00:19:04.680 could catch a bus, but it came like once an hour, 310 00:19:05.440 --> 00:19:08.440 and it was probably a twenty minute walk from the restaurant. 311 00:19:09.039 --> 00:19:15.160 So you know, that night on October fourth, nineteen sixty nine, 312 00:19:15.880 --> 00:19:21.599 Jackie left her shift at ten pm. Usually she would 313 00:19:21.599 --> 00:19:25.920 walk over to an industrial building called Northern Electric where 314 00:19:25.920 --> 00:19:28.079 her mom worked, and her mom would get off an 315 00:19:28.119 --> 00:19:29.880 hour after her and they would get. 316 00:19:30.000 --> 00:19:32.160 She would get a ride downtown again with her mom. 317 00:19:32.480 --> 00:19:34.799 But her mom was in the hospital that week having 318 00:19:34.799 --> 00:19:38.519 a minor surgery, like a routine surgery. Of course, back 319 00:19:38.559 --> 00:19:42.079 in the sixties there weren't these in and out surgeries. 320 00:19:42.119 --> 00:19:45.279 You stayed for a week. So Jackie didn't have a 321 00:19:45.359 --> 00:19:49.160 ride home, and she didn't ask for a ride. She 322 00:19:49.519 --> 00:19:52.640 started to walk over the overpath towards the bus stop, 323 00:19:52.759 --> 00:19:55.960 so presumably she was going to catch the bus, but 324 00:19:56.079 --> 00:19:58.519 a car pulled up next to her, and there are 325 00:19:58.640 --> 00:20:01.440 several eyewitness accounts of her get into the car. There 326 00:20:01.480 --> 00:20:04.519 was no struggle, She didn't have her sum out, so 327 00:20:04.559 --> 00:20:07.279 she wasn't sort of generally hitching a ride. So the 328 00:20:07.319 --> 00:20:10.359 idea is that it's probably someone she recognized got into 329 00:20:10.400 --> 00:20:13.519 the car and then she disappeared. So you know, the 330 00:20:13.599 --> 00:20:16.920 next day, the restaurant staff at the Latin Quarter were 331 00:20:16.960 --> 00:20:18.759 expecting her to show up for work, and when she 332 00:20:18.799 --> 00:20:21.960 didn't show up, they actually used some of their connections 333 00:20:22.279 --> 00:20:25.960 with the police who were customers at the restaurant to 334 00:20:26.039 --> 00:20:29.839 start getting the investigation going. And the family got together 335 00:20:29.920 --> 00:20:33.519 and they all sort of congregated in the apartment building 336 00:20:33.559 --> 00:20:37.119 where they lived, and they there was no official police 337 00:20:37.119 --> 00:20:41.240 search for Jackie. They didn't comb fields, they didn't go 338 00:20:41.279 --> 00:20:44.000 out with a search dog. It was really just family 339 00:20:44.039 --> 00:20:47.440 and friends following up on any lead that they got 340 00:20:47.599 --> 00:20:49.440 to see if they could find her. 341 00:20:51.880 --> 00:20:55.839 There was a diary found and by her mother Doris, 342 00:20:56.440 --> 00:20:59.720 what clues, if any, are in that diary? And we 343 00:20:59.799 --> 00:21:03.599 talked talked about how police didn't conduct a search, and 344 00:21:03.640 --> 00:21:06.720 that is consistent in a lot of these cases in 345 00:21:06.759 --> 00:21:11.079 this book that Knew Chronicle, but also that the idea 346 00:21:11.160 --> 00:21:15.680 that this boyfriend was known to be boyfriend David Papple, 347 00:21:15.720 --> 00:21:18.039 that she had said that she had a love for David, 348 00:21:18.440 --> 00:21:21.119 She developed a love for David that he would be 349 00:21:21.200 --> 00:21:23.680 involved with the family in the search while there was 350 00:21:23.720 --> 00:21:28.400 no official police search. But tell us what if any 351 00:21:28.559 --> 00:21:30.000 clues were found in that diary. 352 00:21:31.559 --> 00:21:34.000 Yeah, they searched her room, sort of hoping to get 353 00:21:34.039 --> 00:21:36.720 some tidbits about where she might be, and they did 354 00:21:36.720 --> 00:21:37.559 find her diary. 355 00:21:37.720 --> 00:21:39.680 And okay, round two. 356 00:21:40.039 --> 00:21:41.480 Name something that's not. 357 00:21:41.920 --> 00:21:43.839 Boring laundry. 358 00:21:45.799 --> 00:21:49.599 Computer solitaire huh. 359 00:21:48.960 --> 00:21:53.799 Oh, Sorry, we were looking for Chumbuck Casino to chum. 360 00:21:54.279 --> 00:21:56.720 That's right, Chumbuck Casino dot com as over one hundred 361 00:21:56.799 --> 00:21:59.240 casino style games joined today and the play for free 362 00:21:59.279 --> 00:22:03.519 for your chance to need some serious prizes Chump Chump 363 00:22:03.519 --> 00:22:04.799 by casino dot com. 364 00:22:06.240 --> 00:22:08.200 Eighty plus tarts the conditions of the busy website details. 365 00:22:08.359 --> 00:22:12.559 With Lucky Land Slots, you can get lucky just about anywhere. 366 00:22:12.279 --> 00:22:14.400 Dearly beloved, we are gathered here today. 367 00:22:14.839 --> 00:22:17.400 Has anyone seen the bride and groom? 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So sometimes, you know, 380 00:22:48.480 --> 00:22:51.359 if if you hear about this case, some people get 381 00:22:51.440 --> 00:22:53.920 very excited that there is a secret code in the diary, 382 00:22:54.319 --> 00:22:57.799 but unfortunately it's not that compelling. There are two other 383 00:22:57.880 --> 00:23:01.279 compelling clues in the diary. Code was really just about 384 00:23:01.279 --> 00:23:05.119 her kissing boys. It does tell us, though, a lot 385 00:23:05.160 --> 00:23:06.680 about her as a person. 386 00:23:07.480 --> 00:23:08.519 If you know she. 387 00:23:08.640 --> 00:23:12.319 Was doing anything more a lift or risky, you would 388 00:23:12.359 --> 00:23:14.839 expect her to have recorded that in her diary in 389 00:23:14.880 --> 00:23:18.519 that code, and she didn't. The most risky things Jazzie 390 00:23:18.599 --> 00:23:22.160 wrote about really were kissing boys, so you know, she 391 00:23:22.319 --> 00:23:25.119 was still a rather naive and an innocent young girl 392 00:23:25.400 --> 00:23:28.759 in many ways. But in the diary there are two 393 00:23:29.480 --> 00:23:34.200 clues that are still unresolved. The first is a picture 394 00:23:34.400 --> 00:23:38.000 of a young man that is unidentified. The picture has 395 00:23:38.279 --> 00:23:41.160 a dark haired young man sitting on steps of some 396 00:23:41.200 --> 00:23:46.559 sort of building, like an early twentieth century late nineteenth century, 397 00:23:46.680 --> 00:23:50.519 looking sort of Romanesque architecture building. 398 00:23:51.799 --> 00:23:55.079 Smiling. This snapshot had a name written on the back, 399 00:23:55.880 --> 00:23:56.559 and the name. 400 00:23:56.440 --> 00:24:00.920 Is Ricardo Fropo. Of course I can't find a record 401 00:24:00.960 --> 00:24:03.960