WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.760 --> 00:00:08.560 You're listening to an Airwave Media podcast. 2 00:00:12.080 --> 00:00:17.039 Monster House presents Monster Talks, a proud member of the 3 00:00:17.079 --> 00:00:23.000 Airwave Media podcast network, home of such shows as kick 4 00:00:23.120 --> 00:00:29.839 Ass News, Movie Therapy and Therapist Uncensored. If you'd like 5 00:00:29.879 --> 00:00:36.520 to advertise on the show, contact sales at advertisedcast dot com. Oh. Look, 6 00:00:36.560 --> 00:00:38.600 here in the mailbag, I got a letter from a listener. 7 00:00:38.679 --> 00:00:40.439 Now we don't usually read these on the air, but 8 00:00:40.520 --> 00:00:43.840 this one surprise me, so I'm gonna go ahead and share. 9 00:00:43.960 --> 00:00:50.240 Listener Mike h asks, Dear Monster Talk, what the fuck 10 00:00:50.439 --> 00:00:55.320 is up with Zimbabwe goblins? You know, honestly, I didn't 11 00:00:55.359 --> 00:00:57.399 know the answer to that question, but put some effort 12 00:00:57.399 --> 00:00:58.880 in and I think if you stick with us by 13 00:00:58.920 --> 00:01:01.000 the end of this episode, you may join me in 14 00:01:01.119 --> 00:01:04.359 being slightly less ignorant about this topic. So let's head 15 00:01:04.400 --> 00:01:07.280 to Southern Africa and see if we can find ourselves 16 00:01:07.319 --> 00:01:15.200 some goblins. It's actually quite unlike anything we've ever seen before. 17 00:01:17.359 --> 00:01:22.920 A giant, hairy creature part part net in Luckness, a 18 00:01:23.000 --> 00:01:25.640 twenty four a mile long bottomless lake in the Highlands 19 00:01:25.640 --> 00:01:28.680 of Scotland. It's a creature known as the Luckness Monster. 20 00:01:51.000 --> 00:01:56.680 Monstert Welcome to Monster talk the Science Show about monsters. 21 00:01:57.000 --> 00:02:01.319 I'm Blake Smith and I'm Karen Stolsner. So today we're 22 00:02:01.319 --> 00:02:03.519 going to be talking about a belief quite common in 23 00:02:03.560 --> 00:02:07.519 Southern Africa. I'm usually quite reluctant to cover topics about 24 00:02:07.519 --> 00:02:10.639 monsters outside of the English speaking world, largely because I'm 25 00:02:10.719 --> 00:02:14.360 worried I'll have missed some important context that helps make 26 00:02:14.400 --> 00:02:17.319 sense of both the monster and the people who experience 27 00:02:17.400 --> 00:02:20.840 or believe in the monster. We all share a common humanity, 28 00:02:20.840 --> 00:02:23.960 but the varieties of culture are often unique to specific 29 00:02:24.000 --> 00:02:27.879 places and times, and thus an understanding of those environments 30 00:02:28.080 --> 00:02:31.800 are necessary to fully understand a concept our practice. Also, 31 00:02:32.479 --> 00:02:34.400 I had to overcome one of the biggest hurdles to 32 00:02:34.439 --> 00:02:39.199 tackling a completely new topic, the inertia of ignorance. Even 33 00:02:39.240 --> 00:02:41.800 though ignorance might be a sort of delightful blank slate 34 00:02:41.879 --> 00:02:45.199 upon which one can stack piles of easily obtained information, 35 00:02:45.599 --> 00:02:48.520 I've come to be very cautious about stacking up such 36 00:02:48.520 --> 00:02:51.639 info because it might be nonsense, or even worse, it 37 00:02:51.719 --> 00:02:55.280 might be quite recent nonsense masquerading as well aged fact. 38 00:02:56.039 --> 00:02:58.680 Those perils slow me down in my research, But I'm 39 00:02:58.719 --> 00:03:00.960 trying to be brave here trying to be diligent in 40 00:03:01.000 --> 00:03:04.599 my research and hopefully I'm not missing something huge. So 41 00:03:05.439 --> 00:03:07.560 for me, it's really hard sometimes to try and go 42 00:03:07.680 --> 00:03:10.919 from a negligible amount of knowledge to the minimum amount 43 00:03:11.080 --> 00:03:14.879 of knowledge about a topic where I feel confident and 44 00:03:14.919 --> 00:03:17.800 comfortable talking on the record about something. But I've done 45 00:03:17.800 --> 00:03:19.840 my best here and hopefully I haven't missed the mark. 46 00:03:19.960 --> 00:03:22.759 But if I have, we will come back with corrections. 47 00:03:23.439 --> 00:03:26.719 So for now, let's find out what the fuck is 48 00:03:26.840 --> 00:03:31.759 up with those Zimbabwe goblins Mobstrtle. I had to stick 49 00:03:31.800 --> 00:03:34.439 in two quick but important corrections here. When we were 50 00:03:34.479 --> 00:03:37.639 recording this, I kept sticking an R into the name 51 00:03:37.800 --> 00:03:40.080 of one of the key characters in the story. His 52 00:03:40.319 --> 00:03:45.280 name is Cobus Junker, not Corbus, and they called him 53 00:03:45.360 --> 00:03:48.439 dunker Junker, which is Dutch for dark Junker because of 54 00:03:48.479 --> 00:03:52.319 his work with occult crimes. And the second correction is 55 00:03:52.680 --> 00:03:55.240 that when we recorded it, I was working off of 56 00:03:55.280 --> 00:03:58.319 documents from the mid two thousands, and further reading revealed 57 00:03:58.360 --> 00:04:02.439 that this cult police work was actually dating back from 58 00:04:02.479 --> 00:04:06.000 the early nineteen nineties, which makes its close parallels to 59 00:04:06.080 --> 00:04:10.080 the USA's Satanic penning not just similar, but literally overlapping 60 00:04:10.560 --> 00:04:13.319 this period of time had many Satanic ritual abuse or 61 00:04:13.439 --> 00:04:18.160 SRA stories going international, with Canada, the United Kingdom, New Zealand, and, 62 00:04:18.600 --> 00:04:21.879 as we'll be obvious during this discussion, Southern Africa as 63 00:04:21.879 --> 00:04:24.879 well having satanic ritual abuse cases. 64 00:04:25.920 --> 00:04:30.480 Monstrutle. Here we are just the two of us again today, 65 00:04:31.079 --> 00:04:33.600 but I think this is going to be a really 66 00:04:33.639 --> 00:04:36.519 interesting topic that we're going to delve into. And I 67 00:04:36.519 --> 00:04:38.319 think you're going to have to tell the story because 68 00:04:38.519 --> 00:04:42.160 I didn't receive this email. You received a curious email 69 00:04:42.399 --> 00:04:45.439 recently about a topic that we haven't treated yet. 70 00:04:45.680 --> 00:04:47.839 Yeah. It was just a real simple email, and we 71 00:04:47.879 --> 00:04:49.959 don't normally read this on the air, but it just said, 72 00:04:50.040 --> 00:04:56.079 dear monster, talk, what the fuck is up with Zimbabwe goblins? 73 00:04:56.519 --> 00:04:58.279 That's a totally legit question. 74 00:04:58.399 --> 00:05:01.319 It was like, I don't don't know what is what 75 00:05:01.480 --> 00:05:04.120 is up with the Zimbabwe goblins? So I went and checked. 76 00:05:04.160 --> 00:05:07.040 I was like, oh, yeah, it's a thing. 77 00:05:07.160 --> 00:05:09.079 It's a thing. Well, and I had forgotten. I had 78 00:05:09.120 --> 00:05:10.800 actually looked at this a long time ago, but I 79 00:05:10.839 --> 00:05:14.120 didn't look it up as Zimbabwe goblins. I was reading 80 00:05:14.160 --> 00:05:16.800 about the tokolosh which is the local name. 81 00:05:17.439 --> 00:05:21.759 That's right, Yeah, a different name I've had several different pronunciations. 82 00:05:20.959 --> 00:05:23.959 As well, and yeah, yeah, yeah. 83 00:05:23.800 --> 00:05:28.160 That's right. Yeah, well, so not sure where to begin, 84 00:05:28.279 --> 00:05:30.639 but what are we talking about and where does the 85 00:05:30.720 --> 00:05:34.079 story come from? Because I believe it's not only Zimbabwe 86 00:05:34.399 --> 00:05:38.360 where these tokolosh or goblins are supposedly found. 87 00:05:38.800 --> 00:05:43.279 This is a creature of folklore that exists in the Zulu, 88 00:05:43.759 --> 00:05:48.959 the Josa, and the Swazi folklores of that region, but 89 00:05:49.759 --> 00:05:56.160 especially since colonialism existed South Africa, which is you know 90 00:05:56.399 --> 00:06:01.079 several sort of those cultural result controls. Old now is 91 00:06:01.120 --> 00:06:05.800 one political entity. They they it's a widely known creature there. 92 00:06:05.839 --> 00:06:10.000 It's a big part of It's not like Bigfoot, but 93 00:06:10.079 --> 00:06:14.000 it is as widely recognized as Bigfoot because these these 94 00:06:14.040 --> 00:06:18.879 are little goblin like creatures. They're often describes having big ears, 95 00:06:18.920 --> 00:06:21.680 being hairy, but usually invisible. 96 00:06:22.040 --> 00:06:22.879 What a nightmare. 97 00:06:23.000 --> 00:06:26.920 Yeah yeah, well, and they're widely known enough to show 98 00:06:27.040 --> 00:06:30.040 up in pop culture, like in commercials and stuff. 99 00:06:30.040 --> 00:06:33.639 So I found, yes, you sent me that that commercial 100 00:06:33.959 --> 00:06:37.720 and I was watching it and just reflecting too on 101 00:06:37.839 --> 00:06:41.160 how similar Australian English can be to South Africa beings. 102 00:06:41.199 --> 00:06:45.120 Oh yeah, yeah, absolutely, but it's that particular one is 103 00:06:45.120 --> 00:06:48.720 four other thinks kestrel, I think oil, but it's actually four. 104 00:06:49.160 --> 00:06:52.279 But it's a strange The commercial will make no sense 105 00:06:52.439 --> 00:06:54.680 if you don't know what a tocalosh is in the 106 00:06:54.720 --> 00:06:59.720 folklore around it, because it's basically two white guys and 107 00:06:59.759 --> 00:07:03.319 a black guys sitting around talking about a toko loce 108 00:07:03.360 --> 00:07:05.279 and how dangerous they are, and they're trying the two 109 00:07:05.319 --> 00:07:07.680 white guys are trying to scare the air, quoting here 110 00:07:07.920 --> 00:07:13.160 superstitious black guy. And then the surprise is it cuts 111 00:07:13.240 --> 00:07:17.480 to the white guy's bedroom where his bed is lifted 112 00:07:17.639 --> 00:07:20.040 way up in the air on a bunch of castrol 113 00:07:20.399 --> 00:07:23.000 of five gallon buckets of oil. 114 00:07:24.680 --> 00:07:24.920 Yeah. 115 00:07:25.000 --> 00:07:27.480 Right, there's the ad. But the joke is, you know, 116 00:07:27.800 --> 00:07:30.759 they're making fun of him, but really they're the superstitious ones, 117 00:07:30.800 --> 00:07:33.199 which is I guess progressive. I don't know what the 118 00:07:33.240 --> 00:07:33.600 point is. 119 00:07:33.639 --> 00:07:36.759 But it's an old ad too. Yeah, that wasn't a 120 00:07:36.839 --> 00:07:37.439 recent ad. 121 00:07:37.720 --> 00:07:40.879 No, No, it is an old ad, old ideas, but 122 00:07:40.879 --> 00:07:42.600 they are ideas that are still there and that's actually 123 00:07:42.639 --> 00:07:44.360 part of what we're going to talk about today with 124 00:07:44.480 --> 00:07:45.439 this story. 125 00:07:45.519 --> 00:07:47.720 Yeah, and what I think was so interesting is to 126 00:07:47.759 --> 00:07:50.839 say that that was an older ad and so you 127 00:07:50.920 --> 00:07:56.319 had this listener who contacted you about these goblins popping 128 00:07:56.399 --> 00:07:59.360 up in the media, and it's just interesting that it 129 00:07:59.360 --> 00:08:03.279 seems like they do have this kind of cycle. I 130 00:08:03.279 --> 00:08:07.079 guess where they're in the media and then they for us. 131 00:08:07.519 --> 00:08:10.040 I guess it's a different thing being here in the States, 132 00:08:10.920 --> 00:08:13.199 but it is this kind of constant thing that's been 133 00:08:13.240 --> 00:08:15.759 around for a long time. But I've been wondering, how 134 00:08:15.759 --> 00:08:18.720 do we get these kinds of stories here in the 135 00:08:18.839 --> 00:08:22.519 US or in Australia and Europe. Why are we hearing 136 00:08:22.560 --> 00:08:23.720 about these goblins. 137 00:08:23.800 --> 00:08:28.560 Yeah, so there's basically two main channels for these goblin 138 00:08:28.600 --> 00:08:32.919 slash tokalo stories coming into the English speaking world. One 139 00:08:32.919 --> 00:08:36.159 of them is more prevalent than the other, but I 140 00:08:36.159 --> 00:08:38.879 think they're both significant in how they frame the stories. 141 00:08:39.000 --> 00:08:42.120 So the first one is tabloid media. So it used 142 00:08:42.120 --> 00:08:44.440 to be that if you wanted international stories of monsters, 143 00:08:44.440 --> 00:08:46.960 the weekly World News, which we've talked about. 144 00:08:46.720 --> 00:08:49.440 Before, would provide would provide. 145 00:08:49.480 --> 00:08:52.440 Now, they absolutely made up a lot of their content, 146 00:08:52.480 --> 00:08:57.000 but they also stole content from other parts of the world, 147 00:08:57.120 --> 00:09:00.360 because if it was a UFO story from Brazil, much 148 00:09:00.360 --> 00:09:03.519 more exotic and exciting than a UFO story from Alabama, 149 00:09:03.639 --> 00:09:05.519 you know, so you know they went with it and 150 00:09:05.559 --> 00:09:08.679 it said World News on the cover. Here's a quick 151 00:09:08.759 --> 00:09:10.720 insert to clear up a little bit of a ramble 152 00:09:10.799 --> 00:09:13.480 from my first attempt to answer Karen's questions about tabloid 153 00:09:13.480 --> 00:09:17.320 coverage of Tokolosh. While stories of magical beliefs in Africa 154 00:09:17.399 --> 00:09:19.519 do show up in the papers of Europe, in the US, 155 00:09:19.600 --> 00:09:23.360 it's usually in the wildly overstated and inaccurate venue of 156 00:09:23.480 --> 00:09:28.039 tabloid newspapers. These are not journalistic entities concerned with sharing 157 00:09:28.159 --> 00:09:31.639 unbiased fact. Their attention and outrage engines designed to get 158 00:09:31.639 --> 00:09:35.000 you to feel things and to buy things. By far, 159 00:09:35.080 --> 00:09:38.159 the most egregious outlet for Tokolosh stories is the newspaper 160 00:09:38.200 --> 00:09:41.120 of The Daily Sun. This is a South African paper 161 00:09:41.200 --> 00:09:45.240 largely targeted at working class black South Africans. Their online 162 00:09:45.360 --> 00:09:47.679 archive search only took me back to twenty eighteen, but 163 00:09:47.759 --> 00:09:50.919 in that time they published one hundred and fifty five 164 00:09:51.039 --> 00:09:54.399 stories focused on the Tokolocean as hijinks. That's about twenty 165 00:09:54.399 --> 00:09:56.840 five stories a year for the past six years. These 166 00:09:56.879 --> 00:10:03.360 stories are about sex, masturbation, physical harassment, spiritual warfare, traditional medicine, 167 00:10:03.399 --> 00:10:07.080 and even the Tokelosh effects on technology. The Daily Sun 168 00:10:07.120 --> 00:10:10.759 coverage has been criticized for reinforcing racial stereotypes of apartheid 169 00:10:10.759 --> 00:10:14.639 era South Africa. The Daily Sun is owned by Naspar's Ltd, 170 00:10:15.240 --> 00:10:18.879 chaired by a billionaire named kuz Becker. When these stories 171 00:10:18.879 --> 00:10:21.039 of the Tokolosh do reach us here in the US 172 00:10:21.039 --> 00:10:24.159 and in Europe, they're not usually given the proper context 173 00:10:24.159 --> 00:10:27.039 about the local beliefs, even when the original context of 174 00:10:27.080 --> 00:10:29.720 The Daily Sun is intact, when it's happening right there 175 00:10:29.720 --> 00:10:33.000 in South Africa. It's sometimes difficult as an outsider to 176 00:10:33.080 --> 00:10:35.600 determine the point of some of these stories other than 177 00:10:35.600 --> 00:10:39.120 that they're often salacious or have frightening details. But these 178 00:10:39.120 --> 00:10:43.000 tabloid stories are like shooting stars. They appear regularly, yet 179 00:10:43.000 --> 00:10:45.480 they're not on a schedule, and they make some light 180 00:10:45.960 --> 00:10:49.320 but no larger impact. They're all they all look alike. 181 00:10:49.320 --> 00:10:52.600 They're these tabloid newspapers and they carry all these stories, 182 00:10:53.200 --> 00:11:00.679 and they tend to exaggerate the superstitious side, they aggurate 183 00:11:00.919 --> 00:11:07.120 the sexually suggested salt side. Yeah, the assault side, and 184 00:11:07.480 --> 00:11:12.120 if it makes the government look incompetent or that, they'll definitely, 185 00:11:12.440 --> 00:11:16.320 you know, look, these poor ignorant people, and how terrible 186 00:11:16.320 --> 00:11:20.159 they are dealing with this clearly superstition and imaginary creature. Right, 187 00:11:20.240 --> 00:11:23.600 it really is is other ring and I can't think 188 00:11:23.639 --> 00:11:25.279 of anything positive to say about it. 189 00:11:25.320 --> 00:11:27.960 All right, It's well, isn't that silly though, because as 190 00:11:27.960 --> 00:11:30.879 you're saying, these tabloids are all about this kind of thing, 191 00:11:31.000 --> 00:11:34.360 and yet they downplay it when it happens in these 192 00:11:34.360 --> 00:11:37.919 other countries and other cultures, and yet they're purporting the 193 00:11:37.960 --> 00:11:38.720 exact same thing. 194 00:11:38.919 --> 00:11:41.960 Well exactly, there's the other flight, right, The flip side is, yeah, 195 00:11:42.000 --> 00:11:45.159 look at those ignorant, superstitious people. They don't know about 196 00:11:45.159 --> 00:11:48.159 the real problem, which is lizard people in our pizza 197 00:11:48.240 --> 00:11:52.679 joints kidnapping our kids. Right, that's lines Yeah, So I 198 00:11:52.720 --> 00:11:58.639 mean we everybody believes weird stuff, but apparently that there's 199 00:11:58.679 --> 00:12:03.200 that low bar haha. Look at those guys. It makes 200 00:12:03.240 --> 00:12:06.320 you feel better about, you know, your dumb ideas because 201 00:12:06.360 --> 00:12:08.440 you're mocking someone else's you. 202 00:12:08.399 --> 00:12:11.440 Know, so hey show people. 203 00:12:12.840 --> 00:12:17.840 Exactly. So that's that's one channel. But that the other channel, 204 00:12:17.960 --> 00:12:20.360 which I think is maybe more troubling, and that's a 205 00:12:20.399 --> 00:12:24.799 bi directional channel, and that is Christian evangelicals who are 206 00:12:24.840 --> 00:12:32.759 taking this folklore and repurposing it as a deliverance demonic content, 207 00:12:33.000 --> 00:12:35.679 like for you know, only Jesus can protect you from 208 00:12:35.679 --> 00:12:38.759 these demons. They're not they're not totalish, they're not goblins. 209 00:12:38.759 --> 00:12:41.399 They're really demonic and they're called up by Satan, you know, 210 00:12:41.519 --> 00:12:45.840 So basically rewriting the local folklore to make it even 211 00:12:45.879 --> 00:12:49.279 more senior. Now it's already sinister because these totalish goblins 212 00:12:49.279 --> 00:12:51.080 in the folk lort they don't come after you just 213 00:12:51.120 --> 00:12:53.639 because they're out roaming around and having fun. They're typically 214 00:12:53.759 --> 00:12:57.879 sent by some magic person as a curse on you, 215 00:12:57.919 --> 00:13:00.960 and there's a whole put together or a magic bag 216 00:13:01.039 --> 00:13:04.360 of materials to summon the tokalos. They'll bury it near 217 00:13:04.399 --> 00:13:06.720 your house and now you've been cursed. And this stuff 218 00:13:06.840 --> 00:13:11.799 fits right into superstitious which cursed type folklore. It fits 219 00:13:11.840 --> 00:13:15.279 into uh, sleep paralysis because people you know, wake up 220 00:13:15.279 --> 00:13:16.679 and they camp, move and they feel like they're being 221 00:13:16.759 --> 00:13:20.200 oppressed by some christ identity. So it totally fits into that. 222 00:13:20.600 --> 00:13:25.200 And so there's there's it's it's a ride, but but 223 00:13:25.399 --> 00:13:29.240 by by repurposing it with evangelical Christianity, it's it's getting 224 00:13:29.279 --> 00:13:32.639 a lot of replay back in the English speaking world 225 00:13:33.000 --> 00:13:37.159 where missionaries talk about, you know, fighting demons and fighting. 226 00:13:36.840 --> 00:13:40.600 These entities and the story of fighting a demon in 227 00:13:40.639 --> 00:13:43.279 a village in Africa and trying to raise money for 228 00:13:43.360 --> 00:13:46.600 your missionary thing. Oh that's a winner. 229 00:13:46.799 --> 00:13:49.360 That is what that it is, it is, And you're 230 00:13:49.399 --> 00:13:51.559 totally making me think of people like bulb Last and 231 00:13:51.799 --> 00:13:57.360 yes Uh and his uh a spiritual warfare, I guess, 232 00:13:57.440 --> 00:14:00.000 as he calls it, and how he travels the country. 233 00:14:00.120 --> 00:14:03.120 At one point, I think he had headquarters here in 234 00:14:03.159 --> 00:14:06.799 the Denver area, and so I've been to a number 235 00:14:06.840 --> 00:14:12.120 of his what do you want to call them performances. Yeah, 236 00:14:12.159 --> 00:14:16.000 And you know, he does have a surprising amount of 237 00:14:17.519 --> 00:14:22.120 followers who are minorities, and I mean minorities here, not 238 00:14:22.200 --> 00:14:27.240 necessarily in the world. So people from maybe immigrants from 239 00:14:27.279 --> 00:14:31.440 Africa and immigrants from Mexico and places like that, who 240 00:14:32.360 --> 00:14:37.639 really he's manipulating them, I think, and acting as though 241 00:14:37.639 --> 00:14:43.600 he can save them from these cultural creatures and the 242 00:14:43.639 --> 00:14:46.679 inherent fears that they have in the societies that they 243 00:14:46.720 --> 00:14:49.120 grew up in. And he's just really playing on that. 244 00:14:49.200 --> 00:14:51.799 And as you say, he certainly has that whole stick 245 00:14:51.879 --> 00:14:53.919 down pat with. Oh, I'm going to be going to 246 00:14:53.960 --> 00:14:57.559 this country to teach them about you know, removing the 247 00:14:57.799 --> 00:15:00.960 demons and spiritual warfare and raising money for that, and 248 00:15:01.080 --> 00:15:02.799 it obviously lines his pockets. 249 00:15:02.960 --> 00:15:05.960 Yeah, and I think that that that's a cookie cutter 250 00:15:06.399 --> 00:15:11.320 U Ministry template, if you will, that's been reproduced all 251 00:15:11.360 --> 00:15:14.240 over the place, and it's certainly probably prevalent down there 252 00:15:14.320 --> 00:15:15.639 in South Africa. Yeah. 253 00:15:16.000 --> 00:15:19.759 Yeah, Well, so now that we've settle that, is there 254 00:15:19.759 --> 00:15:21.200 anything to these stories? 255 00:15:21.679 --> 00:15:25.960 Well it's a good question obviously that there's lots of 256 00:15:26.120 --> 00:15:29.320 news stories. I mean there's like, what do you call that, 257 00:15:29.320 --> 00:15:32.399 there's ink on paper about this, but but it's it's 258 00:15:32.480 --> 00:15:37.879 usually again very sensationalized stories about like a police precinct 259 00:15:37.879 --> 00:15:42.919 being cleared out because of a total ocean investigation or investation. 260 00:15:43.240 --> 00:15:45.039 Schools and yeah, yeah. 261 00:15:44.919 --> 00:15:48.200 Yeah, there's videos of people like trying to catch one 262 00:15:48.240 --> 00:15:52.399 on camera and you know, yeah it is Yeah, there's 263 00:15:52.399 --> 00:15:54.679 a lot of that. But I think the main thing is, 264 00:15:54.840 --> 00:15:57.360 you know, just like and when I say this, I 265 00:15:57.759 --> 00:16:03.080 don't mean it lightly. These experiences are almost identical to 266 00:16:03.159 --> 00:16:05.960 the sorts of things that happen in poltergeist cases or 267 00:16:06.399 --> 00:16:09.919 ghost cases or gen case you know, where people start 268 00:16:10.000 --> 00:16:13.600 to glove everything together as a syndrome, like it's all 269 00:16:14.000 --> 00:16:16.679 every weird thing that happens becomes part of the experience. 270 00:16:17.240 --> 00:16:20.720 Well, I'm really glad that you raised polargeist because that's 271 00:16:20.799 --> 00:16:23.320 exactly what I've seen in that the articles that I've 272 00:16:23.320 --> 00:16:27.039 read and the videos I've watched, they really do stories 273 00:16:27.039 --> 00:16:30.120 seem to align themselves to pulpergeist quaint, where you have 274 00:16:30.240 --> 00:16:35.440 some kind of malevolent ghost, noisy ghost that is causing 275 00:16:35.919 --> 00:16:39.679 all kinds of problems in the community. There was one 276 00:16:39.799 --> 00:16:44.039 video that I saw of a gentleman in a community, 277 00:16:44.200 --> 00:16:46.159 and I think it was in Zimbabwe, and he was 278 00:16:46.440 --> 00:16:50.960 talking about how this goblin kept attacking his family and 279 00:16:51.039 --> 00:16:54.360 would appear when the family were eating and would throw 280 00:16:54.559 --> 00:16:59.000 hot ash into the children's food. Did you hear that one? 281 00:16:59.200 --> 00:17:01.279 No, I was waiting to hear what happens next? 282 00:17:01.600 --> 00:17:05.599 Oh, well, it was continuing, and so it was destroying 283 00:17:05.599 --> 00:17:11.079 their food and they had, I think, sought support from 284 00:17:11.319 --> 00:17:16.440 the local housards of worship and from priests who had 285 00:17:16.480 --> 00:17:19.559 come in and blessed the place, and yet this was 286 00:17:19.640 --> 00:17:23.240 continuing to happen. But a lot of the activity really 287 00:17:23.279 --> 00:17:27.839 sounded like poltergeist. Yeah, paint and just people things being 288 00:17:27.880 --> 00:17:32.359 thrown around, things going missing, and just that kind of 289 00:17:32.359 --> 00:17:35.400 poltageist activity. So it really does seem to be a 290 00:17:35.400 --> 00:17:38.200 mishmash of planes and phenomena. 291 00:17:42.000 --> 00:17:44.599 There's almost like a poultry guist syndrome that you don't 292 00:17:44.599 --> 00:17:47.640 even have to have, like the explanation of poultrygeist, but 293 00:17:47.799 --> 00:17:51.279 that same sort of cluster of things being thrown, things 294 00:17:51.319 --> 00:17:55.240 being broken, and then it sort of escalates where people 295 00:17:55.319 --> 00:17:57.799 feel like they're being attacked and they don't know what's happening. Like, 296 00:17:57.880 --> 00:18:00.160 you know, you've lost that sense of there is a 297 00:18:00.160 --> 00:18:02.559 action that happened, and clearly there had to be agency, 298 00:18:02.839 --> 00:18:05.640 you know, and that's very disconcerting if you don't know 299 00:18:05.640 --> 00:18:08.960 what's going on. Now, if you have kids in the house, 300 00:18:09.319 --> 00:18:13.640 it's maybe less disconcerned because you know, those crazy kids 301 00:18:13.680 --> 00:18:16.359 are up to it again. But you know, if you 302 00:18:16.440 --> 00:18:20.160 lived alone, it would be really weird. But there can 303 00:18:20.279 --> 00:18:23.680 be natural explanations for why weird things happen, and you 304 00:18:23.799 --> 00:18:26.480 have to have that sort of stop lumping it all 305 00:18:26.519 --> 00:18:28.440 into I'm being haunted and start trying to figure out 306 00:18:28.480 --> 00:18:31.079 what each incident might be. Because one of the things 307 00:18:31.160 --> 00:18:33.440 we see, sorry, one of the things we see over 308 00:18:33.440 --> 00:18:36.799 and over again is things that we can clearly say, Look, 309 00:18:36.880 --> 00:18:39.240 that has to be a hoax. Someone's doing that to you, 310 00:18:39.880 --> 00:18:42.640 being mixed in with things that happened to everybody, but 311 00:18:42.759 --> 00:18:45.440 now it takes on special significance. You know, a clock 312 00:18:45.519 --> 00:18:48.359 falls off the wall, Well, sometimes nails fail, you know, 313 00:18:48.480 --> 00:18:50.519 that happens. But if it happens in the middle of 314 00:18:50.559 --> 00:18:52.359 a poultry guys thing, that's just another part of the 315 00:18:52.400 --> 00:18:52.960 poultry guys. 316 00:18:53.200 --> 00:18:54.480 So you can't out of the story. 317 00:18:54.559 --> 00:18:56.960 Yeah, just lumping it all together is a dangerous habit 318 00:18:57.000 --> 00:18:57.440 of mind. 319 00:18:58.240 --> 00:19:00.480 Yeah. Well, I mean another thing that you thinking of 320 00:19:00.599 --> 00:19:03.200 is through looking at some of the videos on YouTube, 321 00:19:03.559 --> 00:19:07.640 there were some really disturbing stories of children being abused 322 00:19:07.720 --> 00:19:13.400 or being attacked by these goblins, and they were in 323 00:19:13.480 --> 00:19:17.720 the care of babysitters or caregivers at the time, who 324 00:19:17.759 --> 00:19:20.200 would then take them to hospital and say there'd been 325 00:19:20.240 --> 00:19:22.920 this goblin attack, And so it seems like it was 326 00:19:22.920 --> 00:19:25.839 a kind of cultural excuse for abuse. 327 00:19:26.240 --> 00:19:26.599 Yeah. 328 00:19:26.880 --> 00:19:31.559 Yeah, that there's a physical abuse, and not that sexual 329 00:19:31.599 --> 00:19:35.079 abuse isn't physical abuse, but there's also sexual assault component 330 00:19:35.160 --> 00:19:39.160 to these stories, and not in the core literature, but 331 00:19:39.240 --> 00:19:41.599 in the sort of the meta literature around this stuff. 332 00:19:43.160 --> 00:19:48.160 Anthropologically speaking, medically speaking. People have hypothesized that the tokalosh 333 00:19:48.279 --> 00:19:53.359 may be a way for people to seek help when 334 00:19:53.400 --> 00:19:56.799 they're being attacked by someone they know who Otherwise, you know, 335 00:19:56.839 --> 00:19:59.160 it would like bring down the law, and you know 336 00:19:59.680 --> 00:20:03.720 it's complicated when a family member is assaulting you. But 337 00:20:04.160 --> 00:20:07.519 if you can deflect from that and just get I'm 338 00:20:07.519 --> 00:20:10.079 being attacked by a total ish, Look here are my wounds, 339 00:20:10.400 --> 00:20:12.440 you might be able to get assistance and help and 340 00:20:12.559 --> 00:20:17.400 protection without the incurring the wrath of the person who's 341 00:20:17.559 --> 00:20:19.039 doing the abusing. You know. 342 00:20:19.640 --> 00:20:22.119 So it's almost like a euphemistic thing way of being 343 00:20:22.160 --> 00:20:24.920 able to culturally talk about taboo topics. 344 00:20:25.119 --> 00:20:28.920 Yeah, yeah, exactly. And I don't know, like it's hard 345 00:20:28.960 --> 00:20:31.160 to say the scale of that, but it's it's come 346 00:20:31.240 --> 00:20:34.480 up in enough of these articles about this from people 347 00:20:34.519 --> 00:20:37.240 who seem to be well educated about the topic that 348 00:20:37.359 --> 00:20:39.880 I think there may be something to that. But I mean, 349 00:20:40.240 --> 00:20:42.440 there's a lot of meta literature around this, because it's 350 00:20:42.519 --> 00:20:45.359 really big in the southern regions of Africa. 351 00:20:46.680 --> 00:20:50.240 It's so some you'll find for a long time, right 352 00:20:50.279 --> 00:20:53.640 for a long long time, and you'll find articles about 353 00:20:53.640 --> 00:20:56.720 how the media covers the topic, which you know, not 354 00:20:56.759 --> 00:20:58.799 to whether it's true or not, but just literally just 355 00:20:59.200 --> 00:21:01.079 sort of like study the ways that the. 356 00:21:01.039 --> 00:21:06.839 Stories are perceived and presented in the public eye. That's 357 00:21:06.920 --> 00:21:09.359 not likely to go away, So I mean, it's a 358 00:21:09.400 --> 00:21:11.519 big part of the culture, will always probably be a 359 00:21:11.519 --> 00:21:14.839 big part of the culture. So I think understanding that 360 00:21:15.160 --> 00:21:18.759 and not trying to utter it because it's coming from 361 00:21:18.759 --> 00:21:20.799 Africa is maybe the best that we can do as 362 00:21:20.799 --> 00:21:22.400 English speakers to try to sort of get our head 363 00:21:22.480 --> 00:21:23.920 wrapped around this idea. 364 00:21:24.079 --> 00:21:26.519 Yeah. Yeah, and I think just given that there are 365 00:21:26.559 --> 00:21:31.119 so many immigrants here from Africa who brought those beliefs here. 366 00:21:31.559 --> 00:21:32.720 Yeah, yeah, and. 367 00:21:32.759 --> 00:21:34.920 Share them as well. But I'm just wondering with you 368 00:21:34.960 --> 00:21:39.559 talking about this sexual assault and the supernatural, I'm wondering 369 00:21:39.599 --> 00:21:42.279 if and you did kind of mention hagging as well, 370 00:21:42.359 --> 00:21:46.160 So what's the link there between this kind of thing 371 00:21:46.240 --> 00:21:48.319 and maybe sleep paralysis? 372 00:21:49.000 --> 00:21:51.920 Some of these cases that people report are just they 373 00:21:51.960 --> 00:21:54.839 sound exactly like sleep paralysis. Like they're in bed and 374 00:21:54.839 --> 00:21:56.880 they wake up and something's pressing on their chest. They 375 00:21:56.880 --> 00:21:59.640 can't breathe, They sense a presence in the room, you know, 376 00:21:59.640 --> 00:22:02.759 they sense malice. And as someone who's suffered from sleep 377 00:22:02.759 --> 00:22:05.319 paralysis and again, if this is the first time you've 378 00:22:05.440 --> 00:22:07.200 listened to the show or heard us talk about this, 379 00:22:07.599 --> 00:22:10.160 that's when there's sort of a disconnect between when your 380 00:22:10.200 --> 00:22:12.960 body is telling you go to sleep and it prevents 381 00:22:12.960 --> 00:22:15.799 you from moving, but if that gets out of sync 382 00:22:15.880 --> 00:22:18.119 and you wake up, you may still be paralyzed. That 383 00:22:18.240 --> 00:22:21.279 the paralysis keeps you from acting out your dreams. But 384 00:22:21.359 --> 00:22:24.200 sometimes people wake up out of sink and then they 385 00:22:24.200 --> 00:22:27.039 feel like they can't move because they can't they are or. 386 00:22:26.839 --> 00:22:30.640 They're hallucinating and they see shadow people or aliens or. 387 00:22:30.640 --> 00:22:35.279 Ghost Hypnogogic or hypnopompic hallucinations are very common with this. 388 00:22:36.519 --> 00:22:39.039 So that's that accounts for some of it, but obviously 389 00:22:39.160 --> 00:22:41.920 can't account for every story. And with anything that's got 390 00:22:41.920 --> 00:22:45.759 a complex syndrome, and you know, a collection of a 391 00:22:45.759 --> 00:22:51.319 cluster of symptoms or phenomenon, then you're you're gonna You're 392 00:22:51.359 --> 00:22:53.359 gonna get a variety. It's not gonna that's not going 393 00:22:53.440 --> 00:22:58.799 to explain it away. Speaking of explaining, there's a couple 394 00:22:58.880 --> 00:23:04.440 of things that I feel interesting. The Tokalosh is there's 395 00:23:04.480 --> 00:23:09.640 this story that maybe because if you live around a campfire, 396 00:23:09.640 --> 00:23:12.000 you sleep around a campfire, or maybe you're indoors and 397 00:23:12.000 --> 00:23:16.039 there's this cold and you have a fire. Sometimes the 398 00:23:16.160 --> 00:23:21.440 circumstances happened, especially around heating furnaces, where it releases carbon 399 00:23:21.519 --> 00:23:24.079 monoxide or there's too much CO two or these sort 400 00:23:24.119 --> 00:23:26.519 of things can build up and if you're sleeping on 401 00:23:26.559 --> 00:23:30.799