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Speaker 1: I want to welcome everyone back to the Pegana Show.

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John Field houses back. How's it going on, John John Well,

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sir cool? All right. We're gonna read this, uh, this

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article here by Martin Van Krevel called Warren Migration. It

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appears in I think it's volume ten of There Will

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Be War, which was put together by Jerry Jerry Pornell. Yes, sir, okay, No,

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I was gonna ask you, you know, to talk as

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you know, give us an introduction into Van Krevel, then

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Pornell the work, because you're the one who introduced me

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to you know, to this work.

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Speaker 2: So yeah, go right, sure, yeah, just real brief introduction

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that I know we're going to talk a different time

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about Pornell. But this is volume Pornell of Jerry Pornell's

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There Will Be War. Jerry Pornell, you can look up

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the Wikipedia who he was. He's most famous as being

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a science fiction writer. Most of his career he was

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basically doing strategic forecasting and you know, future studies for

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the Air Force and NASSA and whatnot. He was actually

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the guy in charge of the Human Factors Lab during

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the Apollo projects of the guys who assessed astronaut candidates

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whether or not they would become astronauts. Which the most

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important thing about that is, this is a guy who

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wrote sci fi who literally selected who would get to

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go into space. And he never actually opened any of

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his speeches with that, which tells me more than anything

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about the man. So Jim Bang commissioned him to write

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a bunch of well, originally one volume. It was a

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anthology of called Their Rull Be War, which would be

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about the future of armed conflict. Excuse me, and Portnell

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took a combination of science fiction writing some of his

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own stuff, some other people's stuff, along with nonfiction essays,

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you know, actual real world essays, some of his own stuff,

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a lot more of other people's stuff, and it was

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based around a specific topic. He either some cases he

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would solicit stuff and say, hey, write me something on this.

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Usually it was somebody he went out there. He either

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got their work that they'd already written, or he said

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he wanted something on a specific theme from people he

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you know, both fiction and nonfiction that he said thought

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had somebody really important to say with that, and either

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they wrote it specifically or in the case of this,

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I think it's more of a case of Van Krebled

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took what he had on there on the shelf and

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probably just turned it into an essay that meant these requirements. Well, sorry,

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I'm a little sick, so I'm a little short of breath,

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so I have to pause in between. So yeah, there

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was one volume. Then they did another eight volumes after that,

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up to nine volumes. Walk came down in ninety one,

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and there wasn't much of a market for people talking

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about war in the future after ninety one to about

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I don't know ninety eight ninety nine, because we all

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thought that we had reached the end of history and

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there would never be war again, and we were always

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proven wrong anytime people think there will be an end

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of war, because again, only the dead have seeing the

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end of war. The tenth volume came out twenty ten

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sometime Fox Day Castilia House got the rights to republish

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the first original nine volumes from Pornell. Jerry. Actually, doctor

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Pornell included a new intro to a number of those books,

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and like I tell people, just reading the intro and

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conclusions to those anthologies as some of the best writing

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on strategic thinking that I could recommend to anybody. So

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he republished those nine books and then he published a

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tenth volume which this comes from. And here we are

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sadly Jerry Pornell died. I believe in twenty seventeen. Castilia

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House has released one or two new anthology of the

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same type under different supervision. They've actually talked about releasing

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an eleventh volume because they have the rights from port

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Neells's state to do stay, but that hasn't happened, so

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that's the there will be war. I didn't know if

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you had any other questions or comments, but that's.

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Speaker 1: Sir, No, that's great. You can still like go on

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Amazon and by the by the paperbacks and everything, so

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they are available. But you know, you can also find

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if you look online, you can find them. Why don't

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you give us an introduction about Van Kreveld and this

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essay in particular.

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Speaker 2: Sure, okay, Martin van Kreveld, he is in Israelia story

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and yes he is Israeli. Yes he is Jewish. Born

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nineteen forty six in the Netherlands, Rotterdam era area. Excuse me,

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obviously that's a really interesting time to be born as

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a you know, a Jewish person in the Netherlands. I've

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heard it alleged that his parents he was actually born

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in a concentration camp. I don't know if that was

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or wasn't the case. Keep in mind that immediately postwar

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a lot of the refugee centers were literally they took

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people who were in camps of various types and moved

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them next door into wherever the into the barracks, wherever

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the guards have been located. So when you say he

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may have been born in a concentration camp, that doesn't

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necessarily mean behind the wire, but that's his birth nineteen

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fifty they immigrated to Israel. Van Krebld actually has an

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interesting biography that was published by Castelia House with an

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audiobook for version that, sadly I think Amazon has taken down,

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but if you can get the chance to get it

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from Castillia House's really great book for an intellectual historian,

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which back up a second. The reason I recommend this

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and one reason I tell people to go read Van

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krebl is these probably the premier scholar of insurgency and

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nonstate warfare in the world right now. So that's what

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makes him important. That's why he's taught all kinds of

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you know, unusual places like the Marine Corps Amphibious Warfare College.

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He's taught a lot at either him directly or you know,

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using his materials as taught at US Army or excuse me,

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you a United States Special Operations Command. He's taught at

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the Mesa's Institute. So again he's an interesting guy. He

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will engage with lots of people who wouldn't necessarily you

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would think you would engage with. But heways back to

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his bio. Yeah, he immigrated Israel nineteen fifty. Weird time.

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He was born with a cleft palada that made him

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unfit for military service, which in Israel it's always been

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kind of weird to not serve because the implication is

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you're a draft dodger. But being medically exempt, he got

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to finish his bachelor's degree early and he actually got

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to start grad school early and go ought to get

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his PhD and come back, and he was probably the

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youngest PhD in Israel at that time, just because again

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he didn't have to go through military service, which he

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went to London School of Economics. His PhD thesis was

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on excuse me, the Behrmacht in Greece and Italy. Excuse me,

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Greece and Yugoslavia during the Second World War, which bring

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how he got into military history, which people point out

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the one scholar in his country of his time without

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a military record. It's kind of a little ironic that

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he's the guy most known for military history, but that's

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what he got into. Long story, Throughout his career, he's

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always been known as sort of the guy who either

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not necessarily pushed the envelope, but the guy who took

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hardcore scholarship into sort of like the peripheral subjects of

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military history that civilians don't generally pay attention, Like you

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looked at Command in War literally has a book called

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Command in War which deals just that, the history of command,

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What is the nature of command? How do we develop commanders?

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How have we attempted to develop or people attempted to

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develop commanders in the past, What are the consequences? He

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got another book on logistics, The History of Military Logistics,

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which it's been pointed out that at that time it

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was only the second scholarly textbook on a scholarly research

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excuse me, scholarly book on military logistics in the world.

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There was somebody in the Austro Hungarian Empire produced a

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book earlier in the twentieth century, but nobody really paid

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attention to that. And again, logistics drives war and army

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travels on that stomach. As a remind everybody. Nobody likes

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to talk about logistics, but things like food and ammunition

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matter a great deal if you want to win a war,

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especially if you have you know, advanced weapons system If

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you can't, I tell people it's you can have a tank,

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you can have a fighter plane, you can have the

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best you know systems in the world. But if I can't,

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you know, put fuel and ammunition in your tank or

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a fighter playing which you have is a giant paperweight.

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He also did he did a history of the is

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the Israeli military. He did some really cool work that

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I actually used in my grad school research about the development,

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the professionalization, development of officer training in the West, which

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is really interesting because long story is short, most of

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the West we pretend that we're imitating Prussian German military

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culture while really doing a lot of French military culture

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combined with a lot of managerialism, and that sort of

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accounts for a lot of our problems in war. Probably

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the thing he's most known for is ninety one he

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did a book called The Transformation of War that gets

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into again what it says, you know, what it says

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in the box, transformation of war from a traditional convinctional

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war into unconventional war. And then what we were beginning

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to see in ninety one, which we've very much seen

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since then, is non state actors becoming combatants, you know,

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groups like Hezblat and whatnot, and the you know, the

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breakdown of the station between when is a true state

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and what is a non state actor. From there, he

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sort of expanded his thesis into the rise and decline

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of the state, which is how he got in with

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the thesis, guys. And at a certain point in between

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all those things, he started writing about, you know, the

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history of equality in the West, history of feminism and stuff,

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which really made a lot of people unhappy because essentially

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he was accused of becoming an extreme far rightist, whereas

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he would just say he's being intellectually honest based upon

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the evidence. So he's extremely critical of fieminism as well

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as a lot of the complaints and things like mine,

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affirmative action and minority politics. He's known a lot for

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criticizing things like that, So yeah, that's the man, that's

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the work. And again part of why we're why we

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know about this guy, why he became so influential is

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Israeli academic or Israeli academia. Rather, the language of academics

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in Israel is English. Obviously they speak Hebrew as the

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first language. But keep in mind throughout Western countries there

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are only so many languages that are used for high

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level academics because again, if you have a small population

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language then nobody else speaks. It doesn't do you any

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good to just do academics in your language, so you

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tend to do one of the Big four or five,

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like English or French or Russian or Spanish. In Israel

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uses English academics are used as English language for academics rather.

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So that's how we got to know him. This book,

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excuse me, this essay, it's deals explicitly with the concept

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of war and migration. It is titled War and Migration.

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The very short I would say conclusion to it if

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you have you know it's too long for you to read,

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which we're going to read it for you, is that

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war and migration are fundamentally the same things. If you

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have mass migration, especially assisted mass migration into an area

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with a host population has no connection to you, where

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you're a foreign outside force migrating in, whether you intend

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to or not substantively, that it's no different than warfare.

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And I think that pretty much sums it up, Sir.

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Speaker 1: I think it's interesting that his family moved to Israel

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in nineteen fifty and he would come to the conclusion

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that a mass migration into an area would be considered war.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think he actually deals with that issue directly.

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And here one of the things he brings up in

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his biography is his father joked routinely that they moved

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to Israel just because they didn't want to feel like

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they were Jewish anymore. He comes from a fairly assimilated family.

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He describes himself as a Dutch Calvinist who happens to

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be an atheist Jew. He says that explicitly in his biography.

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He's one of those people who would say it's almost

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sort of an accident of ancestry that his family is Jewish,

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and he's not anti Semitic in the slightest. He's not,

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you know, he's not a self hating Jew in any

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sense of the word. But he's somebody's very honest that,

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you know, Judaism is it's not really a defining aspect

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of himself so much as it's the religion that defines

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so much civic life in his country. And even then

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he said, he said his family would probably much rather

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have stayed in the Netherlands, but it wasn't you know,

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exactly the greatest time to be there for anyone. And

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the fact that he could get to the kid to

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Israel's sponsor to go to Israel, his family get sponsored

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to go to Israel, whereas they couldn't get sponsored someplace

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like the United States, is just the way it happened

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in the accident of history.

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Speaker 1: And didn't he write a book that basically pretty much

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got him banned from Germany?

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Speaker 2: Well, my understanding is the book is actually illegal in

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Germany or they, or at least I know the original

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cover is illegal called Hitler in Hill, Hitler in Hell.

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Excuse me, got some shortness of breath because I'm sick

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right now, Yeah, which is also published by Castali House.

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When I spoke to him, he described it as an

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autobiography of Hitler because he said, you know, as a

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military historian who did so much of World War Two,

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everybody said he needed to do a biography on Hitler,

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and he made it clear that it's like, what was

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he going to say new that nobody else had said,

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And he said he decided he was going to do

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it as a fictional autobiography. The thing is one of

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the issues of any time you you actually understand the

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target of your research, you very much have to make

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whatever effort you can to see from there will view

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their perspective. You know, one of the things that our

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friend Dale Cooper has gotten a lot of hate for

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recently is, you know, explaining what the issues were concerning

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Germans in Germany in nineteen forties. Well, Van Krebled is

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one of the people who did this a lot earlier,

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probably a lot deeper than any of our friends have done,

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and consequently he made a lot of enemies. It's just

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Van Kreveld being Jewish, being Israeli and his parents are

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being survivors of the Holocaust. It's you can't really throw

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many stones at in at least nothing will really stick.

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Speaker 1: Gotcha, all right? And sorry, man, If I had have

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known you were sick, I would have postponed this.

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Speaker 2: I it's complications about a case I did not know

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until like twenty minutes ago.

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Speaker 1: Okay, all right, I'm gonna start reading and stop me

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whenever it seems like mister Parnell throws a gets a

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little boomerash in the introduction here, or so if you

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want to stop at any time there, Like I said, I.

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Speaker 2: Love Pournelle and I tell people to read them, but

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not all of his stuff is the greatest stuff ever.

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Speaker 1: All right, So this is Parnell's editor's introduction to Warren

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Migration by Martin van krebbl. Martin van Kreubled is arguably

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the world's most pre eminent military historian. Here he presents

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us with an analysis of Warren migration and reaches the

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inevitable conclusion war is often indistinguishable from migration, although sometimes

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it takes longer. The Governor of Louisiana, Bobby Jandal, himself

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an assimilated child of immigrants, says that migration without the

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intent of aim assimilate assimilation is invasion, an act of war.

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It is often said that the United States is a

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nation of immigrants. This is true enough, but it is

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a nation created by the melting pot by assimilated immigrants

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who entered legally and came to be Americans, or at

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least were not opposed openly opposed to the idea. As

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Bill Buckley said, one could study to become an American

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in a way that one could not become Swiss or

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a Swede. Assimilation was not always easy, and for freed

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slaves it was difficult, but it was generally the goal.

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The story of America and migration is as old as America.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I was just going to say, just the idea

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that in a European country you can't become you know,

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Swiss or Swedish. You know, we've seen a complete attack

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on that principle in the decade since then.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I would wonder if I wonder if Pornell would

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still feel the same way about after witnessing what's what's

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been happening, whether he'd feel the same way about all this.

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Speaker 2: Probably more insistent about it being war.

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Speaker 1: The more recent migrants do not all accept the assimilation

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as a goal. They seek to preserve their diversity. E

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pluribus unim is not the goal of the caliphate. Open

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rejection of toleration without dimitude is proclaimed. The United States

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faces numerous decisions after migration, immigration, and assimilation. Doctor van

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Krevel gives us crucial information on the history of migration

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from the times before the Trojan War to the present.

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Starting the body of the text Warre and Migration by

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Martin van Krevel, Warre and migration have always been closely related.

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The relationship was recorded as early as thirteen hundred BC,

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when we were informed the Israelites followed Moses out of

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Egypt to embark upon the enterprise and ultimately led them

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to the promised land of Canaan. As you will no

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doubt recall, they promptly conquered it, and since that time,

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for over thirty three hundred and fifteen years, the link

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between war and the large scale movement of people from

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one place to another has never been broken. Yet, despite

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the way these mass movements of people have had a

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profound effect on human history, there has never been a

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systematic effort to explore the ways in which the two

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great phenomena, war and migration interact. This essay is a

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preliminary attempt to rectify the situation. One from the Exodus

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to the Greek, From the Exodus to the Great Trek.

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The Old Testament tells the famous story of the Israelites,

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which begins sometime around eighteen hundred BC, when Canaan was

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visited by famine. This caused a patriarch, Jacob and his

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extended family to travel to Egypt, where they and their

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offspring were initially welcomed but later enslaved. Four centuries later,

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having multiplied considerably, a leader by the name of Moses arose.

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Under his divinely inspired command, they left Egypt. He's jumping

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out and ignoring a big part of the story, but

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that's okay. I would hope most people know the story.

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After crossing the Red Sea, they marched into the Sinai Desert,

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where God, who was waiting for them, gave them the Pentateuch.

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From the desert, they proceeded very slowly to what is

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known today as the Kingdom of Jordan. It is said

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that Moses must have been the first general staff officer,

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for who else would have required forty years to cross

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what is actually a very small desert.

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Speaker 2: It's a professional inside jog.

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Speaker 1: And after finally arriving on the threshold of the Holy

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Land four decades later he died. His successor Joshua, who

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subsequently proved to be a formidable military commander buried Moses

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then led the Israelites across the river, and is a

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Canaan proper. These intrepid immigrants swiftly conquered the land and

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settled it after killing or enslaving most of the inhabitants.

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Whether or not the tale of the conquest of Canaan

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is historical has been debated for generations, and particular scholars

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have questioned whether the Israelites could realistically have fielded a

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six hundred thousand man army, not counting the women and children.

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Israel's first Prime Minister, David Bengurion, fancied himself a biblical

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scholar and considered six thousand to be a more acceptable figure.

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You brought him into a media conflict with Israel's Orthodox rabbis,

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who consider literally every word of the Old Testament to

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be gospel truth.

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Speaker 3: That's a funny, uh yeah, And keep in mind the

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context of in israelis he's basically pointing out that internal

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society being divided between those who are religious and those

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who aren't.

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Speaker 2: And the biggest issue in modern Israel has always been

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that non religious people are always making religious based arguments

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that they don't get believe in in any other circumstance.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, even I read Shahak's book Jewish History Jewish Religion.

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He makes that point throughout. But for our purposes it

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does not really matter whether the story is historic, historical,

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or symbolic. Still less do the details concern us. What

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is important is that, after all these years, the story

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of geographical relocation and conquest is still commemorated by all

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Jews around the world. In other words, myration was war

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in fact, in so far as ancient war frequently involved

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not only soldiers in armies, but entire nations who left

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their homeland mitmann undros undewagen with man and horse and wagon.

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As the Germans say, war was migration.

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Speaker 2: And this is, more than anything, is the most important

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part of the essay. If you got this, highlight this

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right here, I would tell the reader that is the

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fundamental thesis of this essay.

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Speaker 1: The exodus was far from the only episode of its kind.

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For example, the Doririans are believed to have entered Greece

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from the north in the years around eleven hundred BC,

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as with the conquest of Canaan. The question of whether

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the Dorian migration really took place or not has been

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much disputed Thucydides has the following to say about the

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topic of the introductions to his book on the Peloponnesian War,

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quoting the country now called Hellas had no settled population

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in ancient times. Instead, or was a series of migrations,

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as the various tribes, being under the constant pressure of

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invaders who were stronger than they were, were always prepared

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to abandon their own territory in the belief that day

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to day necessities of life could be secured just as

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well in one place as in another. They showed no

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reluctance in moving from their homes, and therefore built no

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cities of any size or strength, nor acquired any important resources.

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Where the soil was most fertile, there were the most

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frequent changes of population, as in what is now called

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Thessaly in Boetia. In most of Peloponnese, except Arcadia, and

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in others are the richest parts of Hellas. For in

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these fertile districts it was easier for individuals to secure

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greater powers than their neighbors. This led to disunity, which

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often caused the collapse of these states, which, in any

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case were more likely than others to attract the attention

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of foreign invaders. There's a lesson for today, isn't it.

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I guess that's eternal, ternal lesson.

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Speaker 2: Very little in human nature has ever changed.

401
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Speaker 1: It is interesting to observe that Attica, which because of

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the poverty of her soil, was remarkably free from political disunity,

403
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has always been inhabited by the same race of people. Indeed,

404
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this is an important example of my theory that it

405
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was because of migrations that there was uneven development elsewhere.

406
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For when people were driven out from other parts of

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Greece by war or by disturbances, the most powerful of

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them took refuge in Athens. As being a stable society.

409
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They then became citizens and soon made the city even

410
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more populous than it had been before, with the result

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that later Attica became too small for inhabitants, and colonies

412
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were sent forth to Ionia.

413
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Speaker 2: Without getting too bogged down in the weeds of Greek history,

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for an American especially, it's important to understand Greece obviously

415
00:24:51,880 --> 00:24:55,359
number one. The area extended far beyond what's modern Greece, right,

416
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so Asia Minor, you know, the whole peninsula that makes

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the bulk a Turkey. He was historically part of Hellas

418
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and it started to extend north and east into the Balkans.

419
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But anyways, that are very jagged coastline, which means, despite

420
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being a relatively small country, you have huge coastlines throughout,

421
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some of which actually lead to inland rivers that go

422
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pretty deep inland, and within the country itself proper, you

423
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have a few very fertile areas combined with lots of

424
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areas that are either relatively mountainous, very rough, or somewhat arid.

425
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So it's a weird population center situation in Greece historically,

426
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where you have some areas that support large populations, a

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coastline that you can use to go basically anywhere in

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the world, and large parts of the interior of the

429
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country that are just rough that nobody really wants to

430
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live there.

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Speaker 1: There are other examples besides the Israelites and the Dorians.

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The Etruscans migrated from Armenius to central Italy around eight

433
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to fifty BC. According to a recent study, the.

434
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Speaker 2: Guy Gales's outs pronounced I don't know if these the

435
00:26:08,480 --> 00:26:12,039
same gales from Ireland in Scotland.

436
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Speaker 1: That's what I was wondering. The Gaels launched numerous attacks

437
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on the Hellenistic kingdoms and the Balkans and Asia Minor

438
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in the third and second centuries BC, although they were

439
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ultimately repulsed. And in fifty eight BC, as Caesar tells us,

440
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the Helveti wished to migrate from their homeland in southern

441
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Germany to southeastern Gaul and asked him the newly established

442
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Proconsul of Gaul, for permissions across the Roman occupied territory

443
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on the way. After he refused to grant it, they

444
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fought him, were badly beaten, and were forced to turn back.

445
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That failed migration triggered a whole series of wars, which

446
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ended in the Roman conquests of the entirety of Gaul

447
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within six years. The nomadic Arabs, who occupied much of

448
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the territory of the Byzantine Empire in the sixth and

449
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eighth centuries, provide another informative example. So did the Magyars,

450
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whose original home was in the southern Ukraine and who

451
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reached what is Hungary today in the tenth century AD.

452
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Their westward migration was halted in nine fifty five when

453
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they were defeated at the Battle of Lechfield near present

454
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day Augsburg. The Mongol and Manchurian conquests of China twelve

455
00:27:20,279 --> 00:27:23,759
o five to seventy nine and sixteen eighteen to sixteen

456
00:27:23,920 --> 00:27:27,480
forty four, respectively, also led to large scale migrations as

457
00:27:27,559 --> 00:27:31,759
various people retreated to the west, displacing other nations in turn.

458
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Speaker 2: And just for context, say, the huns advance into Western

459
00:27:37,480 --> 00:27:42,160
Europe probably was a consequence of much earlier expansion from

460
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what is currently Mongolia, you know, putting pressure in their homelands,

461
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the Hawnish homelands.

462
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Speaker 1: The largest and most famous migratory episode, if that is

463
00:27:52,720 --> 00:27:55,000
the correct label for a process a stretched out over

464
00:27:55,039 --> 00:27:59,039
several centuries, was the so called Vulgar vander Rung, the

465
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migration of people. It's entirely transformed Europe from about the

466
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middle of the second century AD to the middle of

467
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the sixth century, destroying countless old polities and creating an

468
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equally large number of new ones. Driven out of the

469
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East by their more formidable neighbors, wave after wave of

470
00:28:16,519 --> 00:28:21,000
barbarian tribe crashed into central and western Europe. Some bypassed

471
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the Roman Empires to the north, whereas others crossed its

472
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frontiers and entered its territory to wage war on the inhabitants.

473
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The Saxons reached Spain, the Visigoths southwestern France, Spain and Portugal.

474
00:28:32,839 --> 00:28:38,079
The Vandals invaded North Africa. The Burgundians, whose original home

475
00:28:38,160 --> 00:28:40,440
was in Poland, traveled to the land that is now

476
00:28:40,519 --> 00:28:44,640
named after them, Burgundy. The Huns, whose original habitat was

477
00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:50,240
the Caucaus Caucasus. Is it Caucasus and never remember how

478
00:28:50,279 --> 00:28:50,680
to pronounce you.

479
00:28:50,759 --> 00:28:52,599
Speaker 2: I think it's usually Caucuses.

480
00:28:53,079 --> 00:28:57,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, because that makes it sound plural. That's why

481
00:28:57,200 --> 00:28:58,359
it doesn't sound right in my head.

482
00:28:58,559 --> 00:29:01,559
Speaker 2: Yeah, it is where we get the word Caucasian though, correct.

483
00:29:01,640 --> 00:29:02,079
Speaker 3: Yeah.

484
00:29:02,240 --> 00:29:06,559
Speaker 1: The Huns, whose original habitat was the Caucasus and Central Asia,

485
00:29:06,759 --> 00:29:10,400
traveled west, slaying and conquering everyone and everything on their way,

486
00:29:10,480 --> 00:29:13,920
until a coalition of Romans and Visigothts finally stopped them

487
00:29:14,119 --> 00:29:18,359
at Cologne in four point fifty one, but the defeat

488
00:29:18,359 --> 00:29:21,200
of Attila did not, by any means, put an end

489
00:29:21,240 --> 00:29:24,160
to the series of migrations. The Huns were followed by

490
00:29:24,160 --> 00:29:27,839
the Lombards, the Lombards by the Bulgars, and between them

491
00:29:27,920 --> 00:29:31,160
they changed the maps and the very name place names

492
00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:32,119
of Europe.

493
00:29:32,519 --> 00:29:34,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, and just so they know, the Huns obviously the

494
00:29:35,000 --> 00:29:38,880
Huns we know about, who probably had from Central Asia

495
00:29:38,920 --> 00:29:42,039
putting pressure again, probably an expansion out of what is

496
00:29:42,119 --> 00:29:47,319
now Mongolia. But the voltagurvonder Rung, that's literally the Germanic

497
00:29:47,359 --> 00:29:50,599
people's migrations, and which is a huge part of what

498
00:29:50,640 --> 00:29:54,640
destroyed the Roman Empire. It's also why we're speaking, you know,

499
00:29:54,880 --> 00:29:59,200
a bastardized Germanic language in English.

500
00:30:00,200 --> 00:30:02,799
Speaker 1: All these migrating people, as well as many others that

501
00:30:02,880 --> 00:30:06,599
could be mentioned, were relatively simple tribal societies. In terms

502
00:30:06,640 --> 00:30:10,960
of organization, technology, military civilization, literature of the arts and

503
00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:14,079
the like. They could not match the settled, more civilized

504
00:30:14,079 --> 00:30:18,240
societies they encountered and often conquered. The Book of Joshua

505
00:30:18,319 --> 00:30:21,200
describes Canaan as the land bristling with fortified cities, and

506
00:30:21,279 --> 00:30:25,160
yet they were quickly defeated by the nomadic Israelites at

507
00:30:25,160 --> 00:30:28,160
a time when Roman power, encompassing practically all the lands

508
00:30:28,160 --> 00:30:32,000
around the Mediterranean, was approaching. In Zenith, Rome's enemies in

509
00:30:32,039 --> 00:30:35,559
Germany and Gaul consisted of endlessly shifting tribes who lived

510
00:30:35,599 --> 00:30:40,039
in wooden huts. Four centuries later, the Germanic Visigoths sacked Rome.

511
00:30:41,759 --> 00:30:52,480
The Huns Ammianus Marcellinius Marcellinus says were a race savage

512
00:30:52,519 --> 00:30:58,079
beyond all parallel. He described them in distinctly unfavorable terms, quoting,

513
00:30:58,920 --> 00:31:01,480
they are certainly in the shape of men, however uncouth,

514
00:31:01,759 --> 00:31:05,279
and are so hardy that they require neither fire nor

515
00:31:05,319 --> 00:31:07,839
well flavored food, but live on the roots of such

516
00:31:07,839 --> 00:31:09,799
herbs as they get in the fields, or on the

517
00:31:09,839 --> 00:31:12,759
half raw flesh of any animal, which they merely warm

518
00:31:12,880 --> 00:31:15,559
rapidly by placing it between their own thighs and the

519
00:31:15,559 --> 00:31:20,920
back of their horses. They never shelter themselves under roofed houses,

520
00:31:21,319 --> 00:31:23,640
nor is there even to be found among them a

521
00:31:23,680 --> 00:31:27,319
cabin thatched with reeds. But they wander about, roaming over

522
00:31:27,359 --> 00:31:29,920
the mountains and the woods, and accustom themselves to bear

523
00:31:30,000 --> 00:31:34,599
frost and hunger and thirst from their very cradles, just.

524
00:31:34,519 --> 00:31:36,799
Speaker 2: To a point when he talks about, you know, sitting

525
00:31:36,799 --> 00:31:41,720
on stuff on horseback in order to make meat edible

526
00:31:41,759 --> 00:31:43,359
if you salt it, and then you do that, it's

527
00:31:43,359 --> 00:31:43,960
called jerky.

528
00:31:47,880 --> 00:31:52,920
Speaker 1: The anonymous Roman author of De Rebus Belicus Riding early

529
00:31:53,000 --> 00:31:55,920
in the fifth century a d. Speaks of other migratory

530
00:31:56,000 --> 00:32:00,160
tribes of baying barbarians, baying may have been all the

531
00:32:00,160 --> 00:32:02,880
these barbarians were capable of, but they did so with

532
00:32:03,000 --> 00:32:06,519
sword in hand. Although the process might take time, such

533
00:32:06,559 --> 00:32:10,920
as the five hundred and fourteen years separated the Simbrian

534
00:32:11,039 --> 00:32:14,960
War from the Sack of Rome, very often the barbarians

535
00:32:14,960 --> 00:32:18,160
eventually managed to defeat their more developed opponents and take

536
00:32:18,160 --> 00:32:21,480
over their lands. There are two cardinal factors that explain

537
00:32:21,559 --> 00:32:24,359
the frequent victory of the simple and less civilized migrants

538
00:32:24,720 --> 00:32:30,839
over their more sophisticated stationary opponents. First, while the settled

539
00:32:30,880 --> 00:32:35,160
societies enjoyed technological superiority in terms of jewels of energy

540
00:32:35,359 --> 00:32:39,160
available per capita, the primary sources of mechanical energy were

541
00:32:39,200 --> 00:32:43,319
stationary devices such as windmills and water mills. When it

542
00:32:43,319 --> 00:32:46,319
came to war, In battle, which are intrinsically mobile, both

543
00:32:46,319 --> 00:32:49,839
the civilized soldiers and their barbarian enemies depended entirely upon

544
00:32:49,880 --> 00:32:53,319
the muscles of men and beasts. As a result, most

545
00:32:53,359 --> 00:32:56,880
of the technological advantage enjoyed by the civilized societies was

546
00:32:56,920 --> 00:32:59,519
irrelevant because it could not be brought to bear on

547
00:32:59,559 --> 00:33:05,119
the battle field. Second, the migrations were usually long drawn

548
00:33:05,160 --> 00:33:09,279
out processes, Though armed invasions and battles were frequent, there

549
00:33:09,279 --> 00:33:12,720
were also long periods of peace. Therefore, there was plenty

550
00:33:12,759 --> 00:33:15,240
of time for both sides to take each other's measure

551
00:33:15,519 --> 00:33:18,680
and to learn from each other. Renegades and captives taken

552
00:33:18,720 --> 00:33:21,559
a war often played a large role. This exchange of

553
00:33:21,559 --> 00:33:24,720
information almost invariably worked to the benefit of the less

554
00:33:24,759 --> 00:33:30,599
civilized parties. For example, the Mongol armies which conquered China

555
00:33:30,839 --> 00:33:33,440
and came close to overrunning Europe in the mid thirteenth

556
00:33:33,440 --> 00:33:38,559
century included many specialists who utilized technologies learned from the Chinese,

557
00:33:38,680 --> 00:33:43,039
including various types of siege engines. Two hundred years later,

558
00:33:43,079 --> 00:33:46,000
the Ottoman Turks did the same in their westward drive

559
00:33:46,039 --> 00:33:47,880
towards Constantinople and beyond.

560
00:33:48,519 --> 00:33:51,039
Speaker 2: Yeah, this is a really important part to understand that

561
00:33:52,480 --> 00:33:56,200
migration is conquest. The assimilation by the migrants is a

562
00:33:56,240 --> 00:33:59,759
huge part of how they win the Siege of Constantinople.

563
00:34:00,640 --> 00:34:06,279
Most of the artillery pieces were actually manned by Christians

564
00:34:07,039 --> 00:34:10,599
and basically all of their cannons were produced by Christians.

565
00:34:11,119 --> 00:34:15,119
The Mongol cons quest of China, all the siege engines

566
00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:21,079
were you know, various Chinese people, usually ethnic Chinese specialists,

567
00:34:21,440 --> 00:34:25,760
and even then the Germanic migrants, migrations. We know, just

568
00:34:25,880 --> 00:34:29,480
upon some weird y half of groups you see in

569
00:34:29,519 --> 00:34:32,199
parts of Europe that they had to have picked up

570
00:34:32,199 --> 00:34:34,880
and assimilated some amount of people in their migrations and

571
00:34:35,039 --> 00:34:38,679
integrated them into the migrant cultures. So you know, in

572
00:34:38,760 --> 00:34:41,000
boasts of the words, the ability to assimilate is part

573
00:34:41,000 --> 00:34:42,320
of how you conquer the enemy.

574
00:34:44,199 --> 00:34:50,920
Speaker 1: The migratory phenomenon was nuts. That's yeah, that's uh, learning

575
00:34:50,960 --> 00:34:57,199
the language, looking like them, dressing like them, and sometimes.

576
00:34:56,880 --> 00:34:59,480
Speaker 2: Key technologies, right, Like one of the most obvious ones

577
00:34:59,639 --> 00:35:01,920
are if you were talked to a military store and

578
00:35:02,440 --> 00:35:05,159
maybe not to the layman, is you know, different ways

579
00:35:05,199 --> 00:35:09,920
of putting devices on horses or animals, you know, like

580
00:35:10,000 --> 00:35:11,760
I think it was the Onns who actually introduced the

581
00:35:11,800 --> 00:35:14,639
stirrup to Western Europe, which you know may not sound

582
00:35:14,719 --> 00:35:16,840
very important to us, but understand, until you put a

583
00:35:16,880 --> 00:35:20,159
stirrup on the horse or on the saddle, you know,

584
00:35:20,199 --> 00:35:23,679
a cavalryman couldn't use a lance and couldn't charge with that,

585
00:35:23,719 --> 00:35:26,960
which meant that prior to that, cavalry was mostly something

586
00:35:27,079 --> 00:35:29,400
used for scouting and on the screens the outside of

587
00:35:29,400 --> 00:35:32,360
a formation, where suddenly, with a stirrup you start getting

588
00:35:32,440 --> 00:35:35,840
bigger and bigger cavalry and eventually like heavy armored knights

589
00:35:35,840 --> 00:35:39,039
in the Middle Ages. So yeah, technology is a huge

590
00:35:39,079 --> 00:35:41,159
part of what spreads, and it's not something that's readily

591
00:35:41,159 --> 00:35:43,039
apparent at the time. A lot of times.

592
00:35:44,840 --> 00:35:48,559
Speaker 1: The migratory phenomenon was not solely a Eurasian one. Africa

593
00:35:48,639 --> 00:35:53,639
also abounds with stories of armed migration, some historical, other's mythological.

594
00:35:54,559 --> 00:35:57,400
Three thousand years are said to have passed since the

595
00:35:57,480 --> 00:36:00,880
bound Tu tribes began expanding out of their oridgetional homelands

596
00:36:01,320 --> 00:36:04,400
in what are today Cameroon and Nigeria, and now they

597
00:36:04,400 --> 00:36:06,519
can be found all over the central and southern parts

598
00:36:06,519 --> 00:36:10,719
of the continent. The Zulu established Quaisulu Nation in South

599
00:36:10,760 --> 00:36:15,719
Africa after migrating southward along Africa's east coast. Many of

600
00:36:15,719 --> 00:36:19,199
these migrations bear strong resemblances to the exodus described in

601
00:36:19,239 --> 00:36:22,880
the Pentateuch. In every case, the movement was said to

602
00:36:22,920 --> 00:36:25,880
be have been initiated by one or more gods. On

603
00:36:26,000 --> 00:36:29,320
their way, the migrants witnessed many different miracles which confirmed

604
00:36:29,320 --> 00:36:31,559
that there were in fact they were in fact doing

605
00:36:31,599 --> 00:36:34,400
the right thing. One of the best known African migration

606
00:36:34,519 --> 00:36:37,800
tales is that of Ashanti, a marshall tribe that migrated

607
00:36:37,800 --> 00:36:40,760
westward from Ghana into the Ivory Coast, who on their

608
00:36:40,760 --> 00:36:44,800
way received Sikadoi the Golden Stool, a royal and divine

609
00:36:44,880 --> 00:36:48,199
throne believed to have housed the spirit of the Ashanti people.

610
00:36:50,559 --> 00:36:53,519
One of the last and most peculiar African migrations was

611
00:36:53,599 --> 00:36:57,320
the Trek of the Boors. The Bores were European settlers

612
00:36:57,360 --> 00:37:00,639
of Dutch and Hugenot descent who left Cape Province in

613
00:37:00,719 --> 00:37:03,239
order to remain independent in the face of a growing

614
00:37:03,239 --> 00:37:07,000
British presence there. The Trek lasted from eighteen thirty five

615
00:37:07,039 --> 00:37:10,119
to eighteen forty six and was unusual in the sense

616
00:37:10,159 --> 00:37:12,840
that the Boers set out to settle in lands inhabited

617
00:37:12,880 --> 00:37:17,239
by less civilized and less technologically advanced kafirs, mostly Bantu

618
00:37:17,400 --> 00:37:21,320
and hot and taught tribes, thus reversing the usual pattern

619
00:37:21,320 --> 00:37:26,000
of migratory conflict. But like these less civilized antecedents, the

620
00:37:26,119 --> 00:37:29,639
Bores never hesitated to use their superior arms against anyone

621
00:37:29,679 --> 00:37:33,719
who stood in their way. The Trek also resembled other

622
00:37:33,760 --> 00:37:36,800
previous migrations in the sense that the migrants were strict

623
00:37:36,840 --> 00:37:41,239
Calvinists who believe they acted under divine guidance. Visiting the

624
00:37:41,280 --> 00:37:44,840
region around Pretoria back in late nineteen ninety four, I

625
00:37:44,880 --> 00:37:48,159
saw the famous Monument to the var Trekkers. It must

626
00:37:48,159 --> 00:37:50,760
be said, to the credit of the African National Congress

627
00:37:50,760 --> 00:37:53,840
who took over South Africa after apartheid, the region's new

628
00:37:53,920 --> 00:37:56,800
rulers have not demolished it yet.

629
00:37:57,840 --> 00:37:59,719
Speaker 2: Deep in mind, these things were written in twenty seventeen

630
00:37:59,719 --> 00:38:03,679
at the latest. Dints before you know a lot of destruction,

631
00:38:04,599 --> 00:38:05,880
and part of it, I think has to do with

632
00:38:05,920 --> 00:38:08,960
the fact that the more monument is sort of in

633
00:38:09,000 --> 00:38:13,320
the middle of nowhere, and urban blacks probably don't want

634
00:38:13,320 --> 00:38:14,039
to visit that area.

635
00:38:17,000 --> 00:38:20,159
Speaker 1: So migration was war and war was migration. Aside from

636
00:38:20,199 --> 00:38:24,440
relatively equal situations in Africa and North America, when tribal

637
00:38:24,440 --> 00:38:28,039
societies fought each other, militarized migrations were chiefly a matter

638
00:38:28,079 --> 00:38:32,760
of less developed mobile societies attacking more developed, settled civilizations.

639
00:38:33,800 --> 00:38:37,519
That likely explains why in the more technologically advanced parts

640
00:38:37,559 --> 00:38:40,400
of the world, migration wars came to an end in

641
00:38:40,440 --> 00:38:44,320
the fifteenth century, as the history of the American West illustrates.

642
00:38:44,320 --> 00:38:46,519
Once tribal warriors were able to lay their hands on

643
00:38:46,559 --> 00:38:50,360
modern weapons, particularly firearms. They quickly learned to use them

644
00:38:50,440 --> 00:38:53,119
just as well as their opponents. But what they could

645
00:38:53,320 --> 00:38:57,079
not do was produce to weapons and require ammunition for themselves.

646
00:38:57,800 --> 00:39:00,400
The development of firearms was a decisive shift in the

647
00:39:00,440 --> 00:39:04,519
balance of power towards more technologically advanced societies, particularly those

648
00:39:04,559 --> 00:39:07,360
of the West. How long this advantage will last as

649
00:39:07,360 --> 00:39:10,320
in open question, but there are indications that it is

650
00:39:10,400 --> 00:39:19,119
already on the wayne. Section two Ethnic cleansing. Thucidides illustrated

651
00:39:19,119 --> 00:39:22,840
how the process works in both directions. Migration usually leads

652
00:39:22,880 --> 00:39:25,960
to war, but war can also lead to migration. For

653
00:39:26,000 --> 00:39:29,360
after war takes place, one of the common consequences is

654
00:39:29,400 --> 00:39:33,280
the forced migration that is currently known as ethnic cleansing.

655
00:39:34,159 --> 00:39:37,000
Some of the earliest migrations of this kind are recorded

656
00:39:37,000 --> 00:39:40,119
in the Old Testament. The Assyrian kings had an established

657
00:39:40,159 --> 00:39:43,559
policy of exiling half the population from the lands they conquered.

658
00:39:44,119 --> 00:39:47,639
One they followed after conquering the Kingdom of Israel. A

659
00:39:47,719 --> 00:39:50,239
century later, the Babylonians sent part of the population of

660
00:39:50,360 --> 00:39:54,760
Judah into exile after subjugating that kingdom. The small quasi

661
00:39:54,800 --> 00:39:57,960
Jewish communities in Kurdistan, as well as the larger pre

662
00:39:58,079 --> 00:40:01,039
nineteen forty eight ones in Iraq are said to consist

663
00:40:01,079 --> 00:40:03,960
of descendants of the Israelites forced to leave Israel by

664
00:40:04,000 --> 00:40:08,840
the Assyrians. Both empires have made a habit of bringing

665
00:40:08,840 --> 00:40:11,159
in other peoples to take place of those that they

666
00:40:11,199 --> 00:40:15,480
had exiled. Thus, the Samaritans, a small community of under

667
00:40:15,519 --> 00:40:17,880
a thousand people who currently live in Israel and the

668
00:40:17,920 --> 00:40:21,000
West Bank, are believed to be descended from settlers brought

669
00:40:21,000 --> 00:40:24,119
into the region by its Assyrian conquerors during the seventh

670
00:40:24,280 --> 00:40:25,719
and sixth centuries b C.

671
00:40:26,800 --> 00:40:29,239
Speaker 2: And part of this too, the unstated part, is internal

672
00:40:29,800 --> 00:40:32,960
Israeli politics about who's really Jewish, which has always become

673
00:40:33,000 --> 00:40:38,519
an issue, especially after the last major Jewish populations have

674
00:40:38,880 --> 00:40:42,400
migrated to Israel in the United States. So it's you know,

675
00:40:42,440 --> 00:40:45,639
they're looking at smaller and smaller populations and arguing amongst

676
00:40:45,679 --> 00:40:47,719
themselves so whether or not they're really Jewish and whether

677
00:40:47,760 --> 00:40:49,760
or not they can really be assimilated into Israel.

678
00:40:52,119 --> 00:40:56,079
Speaker 1: The spectacular reliefs that the British museum that originally decorated

679
00:40:56,079 --> 00:40:59,440
the palace of the Assyrian king Senekareb reigned seven oh

680
00:40:59,480 --> 00:41:03,840
sixtus s eighty one BC at at NINEVAH provide us

681
00:41:03,880 --> 00:41:06,800
with some idea of what Nessyrian ethnic cleansing operation may

682
00:41:06,840 --> 00:41:09,360
have looked like. The subject of the release is the

683
00:41:09,400 --> 00:41:12,519
siege of Lackish, a city in the Jidean plane in

684
00:41:12,559 --> 00:41:16,440
seven oh one BC. In addition to the military operations,

685
00:41:16,440 --> 00:41:18,559
they also show us what happened to the prisoners and

686
00:41:18,559 --> 00:41:22,280
deserters who left the city. Men were decapitated. There are

687
00:41:22,280 --> 00:41:25,920
a lot of headless corpses lying around or impaled. Women

688
00:41:25,960 --> 00:41:28,320
and children were left more or less unharmed and were

689
00:41:28,320 --> 00:41:31,639
taken away by the victors, accompanied by wagons laden with lute.

690
00:41:32,280 --> 00:41:36,159
Since Lakish was never rebuilt, the captives presumably went to

691
00:41:36,199 --> 00:41:39,559
places from whence they never returned. This suggests that women

692
00:41:39,599 --> 00:41:42,719
and children represented the majority of those who went into exile,

693
00:41:43,000 --> 00:41:45,440
although accounts from the Old Testament suggest that on at

694
00:41:45,559 --> 00:41:50,360
least some occasions men were spared to share their fate, very.

695
00:41:50,239 --> 00:41:52,840
Speaker 2: Often depending on the fane skills their ability that were

696
00:41:52,840 --> 00:41:53,760
wanted by a conquer.

697
00:41:56,559 --> 00:41:59,280
Speaker 1: The Romans preferred not to exile those they defeated, but

698
00:41:59,320 --> 00:42:03,400
to subjugate rule and levy taxes on them. Ciso called

699
00:42:03,440 --> 00:42:07,559
such taxes a perpetual penalty for defeat. However, during the

700
00:42:07,599 --> 00:42:09,960
period between two hundred BC and one twenty a d

701
00:42:10,400 --> 00:42:14,840
they regularly took enormous numbers of prisoners. These prisoners, men, women,

702
00:42:14,920 --> 00:42:18,800
and children, were then transported to the slave markets, especially

703
00:42:18,880 --> 00:42:22,039
the famous ones of roads in Dellas, and sold there.

704
00:42:22,719 --> 00:42:26,559
Entire communities, including great cities such as Corinth and Carthage,

705
00:42:26,599 --> 00:42:31,360
were left almost devoid of inhabitants. This conquest, best based

706
00:42:31,400 --> 00:42:35,599
slave trade, brought a wide variety of different tribes, cultures,

707
00:42:35,639 --> 00:42:39,199
and religions together and transformed Rome, the greatest slave market

708
00:42:39,239 --> 00:42:43,480
of all, into a new Babylon. The men who followed Spartacus,

709
00:42:43,559 --> 00:42:48,000
the Thracian gladiator who led the great slave revolts against

710
00:42:48,039 --> 00:42:50,760
Rome in seventy three to seventy one BC, came from

711
00:42:50,760 --> 00:42:54,599
many different lands. Spartacus's goal was for them to all

712
00:42:54,679 --> 00:42:58,199
return to their countries of origin, but his men refused,

713
00:42:58,800 --> 00:43:01,920
preferring to stay in Italy where they could kill, pillage,

714
00:43:01,960 --> 00:43:07,400
and rape. They were eventually defeated at Bronzanium by eight

715
00:43:07,519 --> 00:43:13,719
legions led by Marcus Licinius Crossus, and hundreds were crucified

716
00:43:13,760 --> 00:43:17,159
along the Appian Way. Spartacus himself is believed to have

717
00:43:17,159 --> 00:43:19,679
been killed in the battle, but his body was never found.

718
00:43:20,559 --> 00:43:23,079
Speaker 2: That's part of why we say there's only one successful

719
00:43:23,079 --> 00:43:29,239
slave revolt in history, that's Haiti. And again the Spartacus

720
00:43:29,239 --> 00:43:32,400
revolt could potentially have been successful, but they decided they

721
00:43:32,440 --> 00:43:34,639
just wanted to hang out and loiter in the area

722
00:43:34,679 --> 00:43:37,480
that they just escaped from, so they were destroyed in

723
00:43:37,519 --> 00:43:37,920
the open.

724
00:43:40,000 --> 00:43:42,280
Speaker 1: In sixty six to seventy AD and again in one

725
00:43:42,400 --> 00:43:45,079
thirty five to thirty seven eighty, the Jews of Palestine

726
00:43:45,119 --> 00:43:48,679
rose against their Roman conquerors. The Romans suppressed both rebellions

727
00:43:48,719 --> 00:43:52,599
and responded by engaging in extensive ethnic cleansing. Hundreds of

728
00:43:52,639 --> 00:43:54,920
thousands of people were driven out, and, to use an

729
00:43:54,920 --> 00:43:59,559
expression coin, nearly two thousand years later, Jerusalem was made Judenfrei.

730
00:44:01,000 --> 00:44:03,639
Jews were prohibited from living in the city and even

731
00:44:03,840 --> 00:44:07,199
entering it. Such episodes are by no means rare in history.

732
00:44:07,280 --> 00:44:10,000
The reason so many Jewish examples exist is that despite

733
00:44:10,039 --> 00:44:13,280
the forced migrations they experience, they managed to preserve their

734
00:44:13,320 --> 00:44:16,880
religion and their ethnic identity. Other peoples forced to leave

735
00:44:16,920 --> 00:44:20,719
their homelands were either less fortunate or less determined. That

736
00:44:20,760 --> 00:44:24,199
does not necessarily mean that Jews kept their race pure However,

737
00:44:24,480 --> 00:44:27,679
for as modern genetic studies show, Jews settled in different

738
00:44:27,679 --> 00:44:31,039
countries tend to genetically resemble the host populations more than

739
00:44:31,079 --> 00:44:31,960
they do each other.

740
00:44:32,679 --> 00:44:34,840
Speaker 2: And again, he's willing to stick a thumb in the

741
00:44:34,880 --> 00:44:39,239
eye of sort of mainstream opinion in his own country.

742
00:44:41,320 --> 00:44:44,599
Speaker 1: Not all forced migrations were the results of war. For example,

743
00:44:44,599 --> 00:44:47,599
throughout the Middle Ages and the early Modern period, Jews

744
00:44:47,639 --> 00:44:50,880
were regularly expelled from many countries, but this had little

745
00:44:50,880 --> 00:44:53,280
to do with war. During the century and a half

746
00:44:53,360 --> 00:44:57,280
after the Reformation, there were reciprocal expulsions of Catholics by

747
00:44:57,320 --> 00:45:01,159
Protestants and Protestants by Catholics throughout Europe. The most famous

748
00:45:01,199 --> 00:45:06,079
example of these forced migrations was Louis the Fourteenth decision

749
00:45:06,239 --> 00:45:10,719
to revoke the Edict of Nantes in sixteen eighty five,

750
00:45:10,760 --> 00:45:14,440
which resulted in four hundred thousand Hugenots being exiled from France.

751
00:45:15,199 --> 00:45:17,960
Even in Switzerland, the Cantons were divided on the basis

752
00:45:18,000 --> 00:45:21,519
of being Catholic or Protestant, and much smaller force migrations

753
00:45:21,559 --> 00:45:26,280
took place. Large scale ethnic cleansing again raised its ugly

754
00:45:26,320 --> 00:45:29,320
head during the early years of the twentieth century. The

755
00:45:29,360 --> 00:45:31,880
Balkan Wars led to the expulsions of Muslims from the

756
00:45:31,880 --> 00:45:34,920
Balkan states that broke free of the Ottoman Empire. Soon

757
00:45:34,960 --> 00:45:37,360
after the outbreak of World War One, the Turks, fearing

758
00:45:37,440 --> 00:45:40,320
lest the Christian Armenians might aid and a bet the

759
00:45:40,480 --> 00:45:45,960
Russian enemy, enacted the first modern genocide. Hundreds of thousands

760
00:45:45,960 --> 00:45:48,840
of Armenian men were massacred. The rest of the population

761
00:45:49,000 --> 00:45:51,239
was expelled and driven to the Syrian desert, where they

762
00:45:51,239 --> 00:45:54,559
were left to die. The Turks also expelled the Jews

763
00:45:54,599 --> 00:45:59,199
of southern Palestine and drove them from the drove them north,

764
00:45:59,440 --> 00:46:02,840
although some were taken to Alexandria Egypt by American ships.

765
00:46:03,599 --> 00:46:05,679
No sooner had the Great War ended than the Cirks

766
00:46:05,719 --> 00:46:09,400
again initiated a massive ethnic cleansing campaign, this time against

767
00:46:09,440 --> 00:46:13,320
the Greeks of Western Anatolia. This region has been home

768
00:46:13,360 --> 00:46:16,599
to important Greek communities for over three millennia, but barely

769
00:46:16,639 --> 00:46:18,519
five thousand Greeks remained there today.

770
00:46:19,119 --> 00:46:22,119
Speaker 2: Yeah, I see, Dale Cooper's got a really good episode

771
00:46:22,159 --> 00:46:27,000
with Jacko Willink about the Armenian genocide. But one of

772
00:46:27,039 --> 00:46:29,679
the consequences of this is that's why you have ethnic

773
00:46:29,760 --> 00:46:34,199
Armenian communities throughout the former Soviet Union, not just in

774
00:46:34,320 --> 00:46:39,280
Armenia proper, but other places. You have ethnic Armenian communities

775
00:46:39,320 --> 00:46:43,239
are big in Israel, you have them big in a

776
00:46:43,320 --> 00:46:46,239
number of other countries. And even then, the issue of

777
00:46:46,239 --> 00:46:50,960
who is considered Greek, the Turks actually called them Romanois

778
00:46:50,960 --> 00:46:54,519
I literally called them Romans, which was a Greek speaker

779
00:46:54,599 --> 00:46:58,159
of the Eastern Orthodox Church. So a lot of times

780
00:46:58,199 --> 00:47:02,519
that's the only thing that firmly finds who's Greek in

781
00:47:02,599 --> 00:47:05,400
Asia minor, just because most of the people who were

782
00:47:05,480 --> 00:47:08,079
Turks or call themselves Turks aren't even really descendant from

783
00:47:08,079 --> 00:47:11,559
the Turkish people proper. There, you know, descendants of Greeks

784
00:47:11,639 --> 00:47:15,440
who converted and had some amount of intermixing with outsiders.

785
00:47:15,480 --> 00:47:18,880
So again, war our migration is war.

786
00:47:20,760 --> 00:47:24,119
Speaker 1: The period nineteen nineteen nineteen twenty one also witnessed the

787
00:47:24,159 --> 00:47:27,519
expulsion of Hungarians from Romania and of Germans from what

788
00:47:27,599 --> 00:47:31,320
had been West Prussia and Cilicia but was claimed by

789
00:47:31,360 --> 00:47:34,559
Poland after the war. Twenty years later, the jack Boot

790
00:47:34,599 --> 00:47:37,199
was on the other foot, having defeated the Poles Hitler

791
00:47:37,239 --> 00:47:39,480
to expelled the masses of them from the western from

792
00:47:39,480 --> 00:47:43,440
Western Poland and replaced them with Germans. He also expelled

793
00:47:43,440 --> 00:47:47,360
the Jews of Alsace, Lorraine, driving them into France, after

794
00:47:47,400 --> 00:47:50,239
which they were subsequently re expelled to the gas chambers

795
00:47:50,239 --> 00:47:54,480
in Eastern Europe. As these events touch upon one of

796
00:47:54,639 --> 00:47:57,480
history's most infamous crimes, it is important to note that

797
00:47:57,519 --> 00:48:01,719
the series of complicated campaigns of expulsions directed primarily against

798
00:48:01,760 --> 00:48:05,400
Europe Europe's Jews and Gypsies and Slavs, that ended in

799
00:48:05,400 --> 00:48:07,719
the murder of millions could never have taken place if

800
00:48:07,719 --> 00:48:10,039
it had not been for the cover provided by war.

801
00:48:10,760 --> 00:48:15,079
In Hitler's mind, the war and the and lo sung

802
00:48:15,360 --> 00:48:20,079
de Judenfraj or Final Solution of the Jewish Question, were linked.

803
00:48:20,280 --> 00:48:23,039
Speaking to intimates in August nineteen forty one, the Fear

804
00:48:23,079 --> 00:48:25,000
of the Third Right claimed the fact that so many

805
00:48:25,039 --> 00:48:28,239
Germans had lost their homes after World War One justified

806
00:48:28,280 --> 00:48:31,840
the humane expulsion of Germany's Jews. Five months later, at

807
00:48:31,840 --> 00:48:34,840
the von Se Conference, the policies that lay the foundation

808
00:48:34,920 --> 00:48:36,760
for the Holocaust were worked out in detail.

809
00:48:37,239 --> 00:48:40,039
Speaker 2: Yeah, and again that needs to be very much understood

810
00:48:40,039 --> 00:48:43,280
by Americans. I'm not in any way justifying any of

811
00:48:43,280 --> 00:48:47,599
the genocides of the twentieth century, but keep in mind

812
00:48:47,639 --> 00:48:50,920
that there was a situation post World War One where

813
00:48:51,760 --> 00:48:55,039
large portion, maybe even the majority, of ethnic Germans in

814
00:48:55,079 --> 00:48:59,400
Europe lived outside of Germany, Austria and Switzerland proper.

815
00:49:02,400 --> 00:49:05,000
Speaker 1: There were more forced migrations to the east. After being

816
00:49:05,119 --> 00:49:08,760
unexpectedly attacked by his ally Hitler in violation of the

817
00:49:08,840 --> 00:49:13,920
nineteen thirty nine malotsof Ribbentrop, pack Stalin ordered the evacuation

818
00:49:14,000 --> 00:49:19,039
of the tatters. Should that be is that tatters or tar?

819
00:49:19,119 --> 00:49:23,679
It should be pronounced totter, the totters totter, Yeah, from.

820
00:49:23,480 --> 00:49:27,159
Speaker 2: The half breed descendants of Mongols.

821
00:49:26,480 --> 00:49:30,360
Speaker 1: Okay from the Crimea. His rationale was the same as

822
00:49:30,440 --> 00:49:33,760
many others before him. He feared the totters might join

823
00:49:33,800 --> 00:49:36,800
the advancing Germans. But the expulsion of the totters from

824
00:49:37,480 --> 00:49:40,039
was nothing compared to the huge migrations that took place

825
00:49:40,039 --> 00:49:42,039
from nineteen forty four to nineteen forty six.

826
00:49:43,199 --> 00:49:45,599
Speaker 2: Yeah, and to his point, a large number of totters

827
00:49:45,599 --> 00:49:49,159
did side with the Third Reich. Yeah, and again these

828
00:49:49,159 --> 00:49:51,760
are the half fredscendants of Mongols.

829
00:49:53,559 --> 00:49:56,199
Speaker 1: As the Soviet Red Army marched west towards Berlin, it

830
00:49:56,280 --> 00:49:58,880
was often joined by local militias in the Eastern European

831
00:49:58,920 --> 00:50:02,119
countries that occupied. Twelve million Germans were driven out of

832
00:50:02,119 --> 00:50:07,480
their homelands in Romania, Hungary, Ygoslavia, Slovenian Croatia, Czechoslovakia, Poland,

833
00:50:07,519 --> 00:50:10,960
West Prussia, East Prussia, and Cilicia, and about one six

834
00:50:11,000 --> 00:50:13,559
of them died in the process. As the war came

835
00:50:13,599 --> 00:50:15,440
to an end, tens of millions of people were on

836
00:50:15,480 --> 00:50:19,480
the move across the continent. Refugees, slave workers, former concentration

837
00:50:19,559 --> 00:50:22,719
camp prisoners, prisoners of war. Almost all had nothing but

838
00:50:22,840 --> 00:50:25,400
rags to their names and were trying to either escape

839
00:50:25,440 --> 00:50:28,480
the advancing Russians or simply return home.

840
00:50:28,920 --> 00:50:33,079
Speaker 2: Yeah, and again that this part cannot be really emphasized

841
00:50:33,199 --> 00:50:35,159
enough because it's something Americans we like to think that,

842
00:50:35,199 --> 00:50:37,519
you know, the war ended in nineteen forty five with

843
00:50:37,599 --> 00:50:40,719
this beautiful parade, and suddenly there was peace throughout Europe,

844
00:50:41,400 --> 00:50:43,719
which is complete and total bullshit. And you know, obviously

845
00:50:43,760 --> 00:50:48,039
everything the Red Army was doing, you know, in their

846
00:50:48,119 --> 00:50:50,800
territory of operation, which again Daryl Cooper has a really

847
00:50:50,800 --> 00:50:55,119
good episode on this called The Anti Humans. But we

848
00:50:55,199 --> 00:50:58,440
tend to think of countries and their borders on the

849
00:50:58,440 --> 00:51:02,159
ground being very concrete, while ethnic groups are kind of soft,

850
00:51:02,320 --> 00:51:05,400
whereas Eastern Europe it's sort of the opposite. Ethnic groups

851
00:51:05,400 --> 00:51:09,239
tend to be fairly cohesive, fairly distinct. But even if

852
00:51:09,239 --> 00:51:11,519
you have a distinct country, you know where does the

853
00:51:11,559 --> 00:51:14,400
border end. That changes a lot throughout history, especially in

854
00:51:14,440 --> 00:51:21,000
Eastern Europe. To the point with Ukrainians, there's all the

855
00:51:21,119 --> 00:51:24,920
Ruthenian people absolutely exist throughout history. The numbers of them

856
00:51:24,920 --> 00:51:28,280
that are called Ukrainian is always a matter of debate.

857
00:51:29,000 --> 00:51:32,599
But because Ukraine literally means the borderland. But where exactly

858
00:51:32,719 --> 00:51:35,760
is the Ukraine? Well, it's somewhere between the eastern part

859
00:51:35,800 --> 00:51:38,599
of Russia and you know, central Poland, and that's gone

860
00:51:38,639 --> 00:51:41,360
back and forth throughout history, which is part of the

861
00:51:41,400 --> 00:51:44,280
current fight in Eastern Europe. That to be clear, I

862
00:51:44,320 --> 00:51:47,400
don't have any side in that fight. But again, there

863
00:51:47,400 --> 00:51:49,880
are ethnic groups that are on both sides of different

864
00:51:49,920 --> 00:51:54,360
lines throughout the world, throughout Eastern Europe, with huge number

865
00:51:54,400 --> 00:51:57,079
of ethnic Germans that have been there for centuries, who

866
00:51:57,559 --> 00:52:03,599
stylein forcibly moved west towards into Eastern Germany or excuse me,

867
00:52:03,639 --> 00:52:06,719
into what became the Democratic Republic of Germany East Germany.

868
00:52:07,400 --> 00:52:09,079
And keep in mind some of these groups had been

869
00:52:09,119 --> 00:52:12,760
gone for so long that they never even bothered to

870
00:52:12,800 --> 00:52:16,159
speak proper modern Germany, which was an invention of the

871
00:52:16,199 --> 00:52:18,840
you know, the nationalist movements of the nineteenth century. There

872
00:52:18,840 --> 00:52:21,719
had been German languages, there are German languages, but you know,

873
00:52:21,760 --> 00:52:24,079
a formal German hadn't been established. So these are people

874
00:52:24,480 --> 00:52:27,519
in some cases had hard times even communicating in proper German,

875
00:52:28,840 --> 00:52:31,079
who were, you know, uprooted from places they'd been for

876
00:52:31,119 --> 00:52:35,599
four hundred years or so. So it is impossible for

877
00:52:35,679 --> 00:52:39,320
Americans to understand the amount of forced migration that took

878
00:52:39,360 --> 00:52:42,119
place after the ind of fighting in World War Two.

879
00:52:44,000 --> 00:52:47,440
Speaker 1: Well, he talks about people trying to escape the advancing Russians.

880
00:52:47,440 --> 00:52:50,679
Here famously, there are many reports of well, there are

881
00:52:50,719 --> 00:52:56,719
reports of a few camps that were liberated and the

882
00:52:56,760 --> 00:53:00,760
prisoners chose to escape with the German Is rather than

883
00:53:01,519 --> 00:53:03,039
wait for the Russians to show up.

884
00:53:03,239 --> 00:53:07,239
Speaker 2: There are multiple cases, in some cases maybe half or

885
00:53:07,239 --> 00:53:10,960
more of the prisoner population going with them.

886
00:53:12,199 --> 00:53:14,679
Speaker 1: The force migrations in ethnic cleansing did not end in

887
00:53:14,760 --> 00:53:18,960
nineteen forty five. The nineteen forty seven Indo Pakistani Wars

888
00:53:19,159 --> 00:53:22,920
divided British India into two different countries and caused millions

889
00:53:22,920 --> 00:53:26,199
of people terrified by the interreligious violence to cross the

890
00:53:26,239 --> 00:53:29,880
newly established frontier between India and Pakistan in both directions,

891
00:53:30,519 --> 00:53:34,199
triggered by the flight of ten million Bengali refugees from

892
00:53:34,239 --> 00:53:37,360
what was then known as East Pakistan. The Third Indo

893
00:53:37,440 --> 00:53:40,679
Pakistani War, which broke out in nineteen seventy one, brought

894
00:53:40,719 --> 00:53:45,800
about the creation of the independent Bangladesh. After the Pakistani surrender,

895
00:53:45,840 --> 00:53:49,719
the refugees returned and a smaller, though still considerable number

896
00:53:49,719 --> 00:53:53,159
of Pakistanis were driven out of Bangladesh into West Pakistan.

897
00:53:54,039 --> 00:53:56,400
The end of the Vietnam War led to the expulsion

898
00:53:56,400 --> 00:53:58,840
of two hundred and fifty thousand ethnic Chinese.

899
00:53:59,480 --> 00:53:59,760
Speaker 3: Is that ho.

900
00:54:02,079 --> 00:54:06,079
Speaker 2: Oh? I think it's oh yeah, Chinese And they don't

901
00:54:06,119 --> 00:54:08,519
even usually use that. Usually they call them young in

902
00:54:08,559 --> 00:54:11,719
real life. But yeah, there are huge numbers of ethnic

903
00:54:11,800 --> 00:54:15,559
Chinese in Southeast Asia, and despite being there for centuries,

904
00:54:15,559 --> 00:54:19,239
they are still distinctively ethnic Chinese, despite the fact that

905
00:54:19,280 --> 00:54:22,039
the average American thinks that all the East Asians look

906
00:54:22,079 --> 00:54:22,440
the same.

907
00:54:24,159 --> 00:54:25,880
Speaker 1: The end of the Vietnam War lands of the expulsion

908
00:54:25,920 --> 00:54:28,360
of two hundred and fifty thousand ethnic Chinese ho from

909
00:54:28,400 --> 00:54:30,719
that country, as well as the migration of the two

910
00:54:30,760 --> 00:54:34,400
million Vietnamese boat people, over half of whom ultimately settled

911
00:54:34,400 --> 00:54:38,760
in the United States. The nineteen eighty Russian invasion of

912
00:54:38,800 --> 00:54:42,039
Afghanistan caused as many as a million Afghanis across the

913
00:54:42,079 --> 00:54:47,039
border into Pakistan's northwestern provinces. Despite being settled in refugee

914
00:54:47,119 --> 00:54:50,000
camps there, they eventually came to jeopardize their host control

915
00:54:50,039 --> 00:54:53,519
over the region, a problem that may very well present

916
00:54:53,599 --> 00:54:55,920
itself in other parts of the world in the future.

917
00:54:57,440 --> 00:54:59,239
Some of the wars that have taken place in Africa

918
00:54:59,280 --> 00:55:06,159
since the nineteen seventies, particularly those in the Sudan Eritrea, Somalia, Uganda, Rwanda, Burundi,

919
00:55:06,440 --> 00:55:10,679
the Congo, Liberia, Angola and Mozambique, also led to enforced

920
00:55:10,719 --> 00:55:15,000
migration on a massive scale, and after forty two year hiatus,

921
00:55:15,079 --> 00:55:18,079
ethnic cleansing returned to Europe when, following the death of

922
00:55:18,119 --> 00:55:22,480
longtime dictator Tito, Yugoslavia broke up. When Bosnia Hers and

923
00:55:22,480 --> 00:55:27,159
no Colovino, whose population is predominantly Muslim, declared independence from Belgrade,

924
00:55:27,239 --> 00:55:29,719
the Serb minority and the province embarked on an all

925
00:55:29,760 --> 00:55:33,280
out effort to avoid coming under Muslim rule. Their efforts

926
00:55:33,320 --> 00:55:36,559
were supported by the Serbian government under Slovan and Melosovich,

927
00:55:36,840 --> 00:55:42,599
who provided its kinsmen with men, weapons and money. The

928
00:55:42,639 --> 00:55:45,760
Bosnian War, which lasted from nineteen ninety two to nineteen

929
00:55:45,800 --> 00:55:49,559
ninety five, witnessed widespread ethnic cleansing. The war was brought

930
00:55:49,599 --> 00:55:52,239
to an end by NATO aircraft launching air strikes at

931
00:55:52,280 --> 00:55:55,480
the stronger Serbian forces. It later turned out that there

932
00:55:55,559 --> 00:55:57,840
was little difference between the two sides, both of whom

933
00:55:57,840 --> 00:56:01,880
committed atrocities, including mass execution. The number of people who

934
00:56:01,920 --> 00:56:06,119
displaced who were displaced by that war has been estimated

935
00:56:06,119 --> 00:56:08,440
at two point two million, including two hundred and fifty

936
00:56:08,480 --> 00:56:14,000
thousand Serbs who were driven out of the Krajina Pryina.

937
00:56:14,280 --> 00:56:18,320
Speaker 2: Thank you just because I watched CNN in the day.

938
00:56:19,039 --> 00:56:22,440
Speaker 1: That fact did not prevent the world, with President Clinton

939
00:56:22,440 --> 00:56:24,639
at its head, from pointing to the Serbs as the

940
00:56:24,679 --> 00:56:29,719
culprits and condemning them by every available means. The current

941
00:56:29,760 --> 00:56:33,280
wars in Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan and several other countries in

942
00:56:33,320 --> 00:56:36,599
Asia and Africa are also creating large numbers of migrants.

943
00:56:36,960 --> 00:56:40,159
Often they are prepared to do almost anything to escape

944
00:56:40,159 --> 00:56:42,280
the fighting, even though life is a refugee is a

945
00:56:42,280 --> 00:56:45,599
perilous endeavor. Women are in particular danger, as they run

946
00:56:45,639 --> 00:56:49,000
the risk of being kidnapped and sold as prostitutes. According

947
00:56:49,039 --> 00:56:51,239
to the New York Times, there are currently sixty million

948
00:56:51,280 --> 00:56:53,639
people who have been forced to leave their homes. That

949
00:56:53,679 --> 00:56:56,800
represents just under one percent of the entire global population.

950
00:56:57,760 --> 00:57:01,239
Of the sixty million homeless, one third are refugees who

951
00:57:01,239 --> 00:57:04,760
are presently living abroad. The remaining forty million have been

952
00:57:04,760 --> 00:57:07,880
displaced by the civil war but remain inside their own countries.

953
00:57:08,480 --> 00:57:10,960
Since the figures include millions of children who were born

954
00:57:11,000 --> 00:57:15,159
to refugees, even second generation refugees, or displaced people after

955
00:57:15,199 --> 00:57:19,480
they fled, it is possible that they are inflated. That

956
00:57:19,599 --> 00:57:21,960
is especially true in the case of the Palestinians, whose

957
00:57:22,079 --> 00:57:25,880
number whose number the Palestinian authority puts at an incredible

958
00:57:25,920 --> 00:57:28,920
at a literally incredible six million. Yeah, that number is

959
00:57:28,960 --> 00:57:33,079
literally incredible. However, there is every sign that the number

960
00:57:33,119 --> 00:57:37,559
of displaced people is only going to grow and increase

961
00:57:37,559 --> 00:57:40,679
the size of the global mass migration in coming years.

962
00:57:41,440 --> 00:57:43,280
Speaker 2: Like I said, there's always a lot of subtext with

963
00:57:43,360 --> 00:57:43,880
his writing.

964
00:57:45,880 --> 00:57:48,559
Speaker 1: Same with Littbakret Litwakret.

965
00:57:48,760 --> 00:57:51,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, which again both of them are reading people we should.

966
00:57:51,440 --> 00:57:56,360
Speaker 1: Read yes, absolutely. For example, Israel's war of independence, which

967
00:57:56,360 --> 00:57:59,599
the Palestinians call the Nakba Catastrophe, actually led to the

968
00:57:59,639 --> 00:58:03,000
expelled of about six hundred thousand people. The June nineteen

969
00:58:03,039 --> 00:58:07,719
sixty seven war created at most another three hundred thousand refugees. Nevertheless,

970
00:58:07,719 --> 00:58:10,519
do the refugee camps near Jericho have become ghost towns

971
00:58:10,559 --> 00:58:13,679
and have largely remained so to the present day. As

972
00:58:13,719 --> 00:58:17,159
of twenty fifteen, large numbers of Palestinian refugees are scattered

973
00:58:17,159 --> 00:58:20,639
in the Gouza Strip, the West Bank, Jordan, Syria, and Lebanon,

974
00:58:20,920 --> 00:58:23,760
while others have joined the ongoing Muslim migration to Europe

975
00:58:23,800 --> 00:58:28,599
and the United States because Israel's Arab neighbors find it

976
00:58:28,719 --> 00:58:31,239
useful to have no intention of permitting it to go away.

977
00:58:31,440 --> 00:58:34,960
The plight of the displaced Palestinians is both the most

978
00:58:35,320 --> 00:58:38,519
persistent refugee situation as well as the one that has

979
00:58:38,559 --> 00:58:43,519
attracted the most sustained international attention. Unfortunately, the future does

980
00:58:43,559 --> 00:58:46,440
not bode well, since the possibility that Jordan will eventually

981
00:58:46,480 --> 00:58:51,519
fall to diesh Isis is all too real. Should that

982
00:58:51,559 --> 00:58:54,360
come to pass, it is not inconceivable that the government

983
00:58:54,440 --> 00:58:57,360
in Jerusalem would deem it necessary for reasons of national

984
00:58:57,440 --> 00:59:00,920
security to drive out the two million Palestinians in the

985
00:59:00,920 --> 00:59:04,840
West Bank as well. Yeah, huh he is.

986
00:59:05,000 --> 00:59:08,320
Speaker 2: Uh, it was, And I guess we're probably near the

987
00:59:08,320 --> 00:59:11,119
point where we want to take a break. But part

988
00:59:11,119 --> 00:59:13,159
of what you have to understand about voud Kravel is this,

989
00:59:13,199 --> 00:59:18,280
despite being a national security historian who does so much

990
00:59:18,280 --> 00:59:22,000
on special operations, he is really persona non grata with

991
00:59:22,039 --> 00:59:26,360
the Israeli Defense Force. So he's known for having a

992
00:59:26,360 --> 00:59:29,119
lot of sources who are again because everybody serves in

993
00:59:29,159 --> 00:59:32,760
the military, veterans who give him information and leaked documents

994
00:59:32,760 --> 00:59:36,880
to him. But the formal IDF has repeatedly criticized him

995
00:59:36,920 --> 00:59:39,519
about all kinds of things, to the point that he

996
00:59:39,639 --> 00:59:42,280
was not allowed to give speeches to like IDF officer

997
00:59:42,440 --> 00:59:45,320
schools because they were worried about him starting fights.

998
00:59:46,599 --> 00:59:49,920
Speaker 1: That's great, all right, we'll cut it here and pick

999
00:59:50,000 --> 00:59:51,840
up for part two. I think we can get through

1000
00:59:51,840 --> 00:59:53,039
this in two parts, right.

1001
00:59:53,440 --> 00:59:56,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, let me see you just pulling up.

1002
00:59:56,559 --> 00:59:58,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, see how many pages we have left?

1003
00:59:59,039 --> 01:00:00,639
Speaker 2: Yeah, we only got like five pages left.

1004
01:00:01,199 --> 01:00:02,239
Speaker 1: You want to finish it now?

1005
01:00:04,559 --> 01:00:05,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, we can do that.

1006
01:00:05,960 --> 01:00:07,280
Speaker 1: Okay, have you got time?

1007
01:00:07,679 --> 01:00:08,960
Speaker 3: Yeah? All right.

1008
01:00:10,480 --> 01:00:15,360
Speaker 1: Three voluntary war related migration. Though the use of force

1009
01:00:15,519 --> 01:00:18,920
is war's outstanding characteristic, not all war related migrations are

1010
01:00:18,960 --> 01:00:22,039
carried out by force. Very often people decide to leave

1011
01:00:22,039 --> 01:00:24,280
a war torn region out of their own free will.

1012
01:00:25,079 --> 01:00:27,599
One reason for doing so, which played an important role

1013
01:00:27,679 --> 01:00:30,559
during the twentieth century, is the desire to avoid conscription.

1014
01:00:31,440 --> 01:00:34,639
In the decades following the development of the French Revolutionary Army,

1015
01:00:34,920 --> 01:00:38,880
conscription became common throughout Europe and was origidly enforced. Many

1016
01:00:38,920 --> 01:00:42,519
of those willing to evade force evade forced military service

1017
01:00:42,559 --> 01:00:45,320
went to the USA, the British colonies in Latin America.

1018
01:00:45,800 --> 01:00:50,039
Speaker 2: A huge portion of the American excuse me, ethnic German

1019
01:00:50,079 --> 01:00:52,559
migration in North America was from people who wanted to

1020
01:00:52,599 --> 01:00:59,360
avoid conscription. Ironically, a huge amount of the of israelis

1021
01:01:00,079 --> 01:01:01,440
And I tell people, if you ever get a chance,

1022
01:01:01,440 --> 01:01:04,920
watch the Travel Channel. Inevitably you'll hear about somebody from

1023
01:01:04,960 --> 01:01:06,559
Israel who's got to go back to take over a

1024
01:01:06,599 --> 01:01:08,880
family business. And the unstated part is this is somebody

1025
01:01:08,920 --> 01:01:11,800
who went abroad for school, made sure they were gone

1026
01:01:11,800 --> 01:01:13,679
so long they couldn't get drafted. And now that they're

1027
01:01:13,679 --> 01:01:15,760
old enough and they can't be drafted. They're going home

1028
01:01:15,880 --> 01:01:20,159
because you know there's no risk to them.

1029
01:01:20,480 --> 01:01:23,559
Speaker 1: Today, Eritrea is the country that produces the largest number

1030
01:01:23,599 --> 01:01:26,800
of refugees trying to avoid national service, military or other.

1031
01:01:27,480 --> 01:01:31,440
The country is governed by a desk spot named isaiahs Afwerki.

1032
01:01:32,559 --> 01:01:35,800
Freedom and human rights are unknown. Men and unmarried women

1033
01:01:35,800 --> 01:01:39,559
are conscripted, often for life. This has caused thousands of Eritreans,

1034
01:01:39,559 --> 01:01:42,679
particularly young men, to flee to Ethiopia. From there, they

1035
01:01:42,760 --> 01:01:45,480
usually continue on towards any other country they can enter

1036
01:01:45,679 --> 01:01:47,000
legally or illegally.

1037
01:01:48,320 --> 01:01:50,760
Speaker 2: Again, another part of the subtextas he's from a country

1038
01:01:50,760 --> 01:01:55,039
that tries to have universal conscription to include women.

1039
01:01:57,440 --> 01:02:00,519
Speaker 1: War also leads to migration in another way. From the

1040
01:02:00,559 --> 01:02:03,760
earliest days of war, Victoria's soldiers have been besieged by

1041
01:02:03,760 --> 01:02:06,599
the women of the defeated in search of safety, food,

1042
01:02:06,760 --> 01:02:14,639
and not least sheer masculine force. Yeah, that's a very

1043
01:02:14,800 --> 01:02:16,039
that's him being diplomatic.

1044
01:02:16,800 --> 01:02:21,639
Speaker 2: What a polite way to say that.

1045
01:02:21,639 --> 01:02:27,440
Speaker 1: That still remains the case. Armies often prohibit frightenization, as

1046
01:02:27,440 --> 01:02:29,920
the Allied ones did in Germany after World War Two.

1047
01:02:31,679 --> 01:02:34,639
Some states even forbade marriages between their troops and women

1048
01:02:34,679 --> 01:02:38,599
from the occupied population. Usually these efforts are to no avail.

1049
01:02:39,000 --> 01:02:43,159
In World War Two, American soldiers overpaid, over sex, and overhear,

1050
01:02:43,920 --> 01:02:47,480
as their British allies described them, often had the time

1051
01:02:47,519 --> 01:02:50,440
of their lives. After the war's end. Most of them

1052
01:02:50,480 --> 01:02:55,239
eventually returned home alone, but an estimated sixty thousand American

1053
01:02:55,239 --> 01:02:59,360
soldiers brought back a signorina or a Freudlein as a

1054
01:02:59,400 --> 01:03:00,519
wartime soir.

1055
01:03:01,639 --> 01:03:04,760
Speaker 2: Eventually, it got so common for them to seek other

1056
01:03:04,800 --> 01:03:10,280
ways of getting their girlfriend's home that eventually the occupation

1057
01:03:10,400 --> 01:03:13,480
command just abandoned the restrictions and allowed them to marry.

1058
01:03:15,920 --> 01:03:18,880
Speaker 1: But bubbah. The Korean War is known to have produced

1059
01:03:18,920 --> 01:03:21,639
an even larger migration, most likely because of the ban

1060
01:03:21,719 --> 01:03:25,199
on marrying Japanese women. Japan served as a principal US

1061
01:03:25,280 --> 01:03:29,199
base during the Korean War was lifted from nineteen forty

1062
01:03:29,239 --> 01:03:31,559
two to nineteen fifty two. The number of Gis who

1063
01:03:31,559 --> 01:03:33,760
married foreign women was around one million.

1064
01:03:34,360 --> 01:03:36,400
Speaker 2: That's also a very polite way of saying that a

1065
01:03:36,440 --> 01:03:38,639
generation of Japanese men had largely been.

1066
01:03:38,559 --> 01:03:43,760
Speaker 1: Destroyed the wars in Southeast Asia from nineteen sixty five

1067
01:03:43,760 --> 01:03:46,280
to nineteen seventy five. That involved about two point five

1068
01:03:46,360 --> 01:03:51,360
million American troops generated another crop of war brides, but

1069
01:03:51,440 --> 01:03:54,760
although the phenomenon is not entirely unknown, in Afghanistan and Iraq,

1070
01:03:55,039 --> 01:03:58,280
it is much less common. The difference is that Muslims

1071
01:03:58,320 --> 01:04:00,719
are extremely jealous of their women and segregate them as

1072
01:04:00,800 --> 01:04:03,960
much as possible. Hence, the US military, in the hope

1073
01:04:03,960 --> 01:04:07,000
of not further inflaming the occupied populations, has done its

1074
01:04:07,039 --> 01:04:10,079
best to discourage the troops from fraternizing with the local women.

1075
01:04:11,920 --> 01:04:14,440
Much more important than either of these forms of post

1076
01:04:14,440 --> 01:04:16,559
war migration is the kind which is driven by the

1077
01:04:16,599 --> 01:04:19,760
hope of a safer, more orderly, and more prosperous life abroad.

1078
01:04:20,480 --> 01:04:24,480
This describes the majority of modern migrations. Their destinations are

1079
01:04:24,519 --> 01:04:27,440
primarily the rich countries of the West, as well as Australia.

1080
01:04:28,440 --> 01:04:31,519
Migrants with a Christian background are normally absorbed without too

1081
01:04:31,599 --> 01:04:34,800
many problems, especially if they are white, as refugees from

1082
01:04:34,800 --> 01:04:39,119
the former Yugoslavia are. However, the Lebanese Christian the aspora

1083
01:04:39,159 --> 01:04:42,639
has shown that even those from Arab backgrounds can adapt

1084
01:04:42,719 --> 01:04:46,320
to the West. Hindus and Buddhists also tend to do well.

1085
01:04:47,519 --> 01:04:51,199
Speaker 2: Just for a completely unofficial point, of reference. I have

1086
01:04:51,440 --> 01:04:54,280
never met people were quite as racist as Arab Christians

1087
01:04:54,320 --> 01:04:55,639
who moved to the West.

1088
01:04:56,639 --> 01:04:59,880
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I know, a couple.

1089
01:05:02,079 --> 01:05:04,480
Speaker 2: Off white nationalism or off white supremacy.

1090
01:05:07,679 --> 01:05:11,199
Speaker 1: By contrast, most Muslim migrants are fanatically opposed to any

1091
01:05:11,239 --> 01:05:15,079
kind of cultural assimilation. Using their mosques as community centers

1092
01:05:15,079 --> 01:05:19,639
and accepting religious imams as imams as their leaders, they

1093
01:05:19,679 --> 01:05:23,079
actively resist any attempt to integrate them. Some even begin

1094
01:05:23,159 --> 01:05:26,440
proselytizing for their way of life, as they have every

1095
01:05:26,480 --> 01:05:32,960
right to do in a democratic country. I love that sentence.

1096
01:05:34,280 --> 01:05:39,360
Speaker 2: He is incredibly is sometimes polite with how he says

1097
01:05:39,440 --> 01:05:41,800
offensive things, but he is blunt.

1098
01:05:44,119 --> 01:05:46,199
Speaker 1: Their objective is to spread their views on what the

1099
01:05:46,280 --> 01:05:51,239
late Samuel Huntington used to call identity. Identity, as Huntington describes,

1100
01:05:51,280 --> 01:05:54,760
it includes the relations between God and man, the individual

1101
01:05:54,840 --> 01:05:57,679
and the group, the citizen and the state, parents and children,

1102
01:05:57,800 --> 01:06:00,239
husband and wife, as well as differing views of the

1103
01:06:00,320 --> 01:06:05,320
relative importance of rights and responsibilities, liberty and authority, equality

1104
01:06:05,519 --> 01:06:06,239
and hierarchy.

1105
01:06:06,960 --> 01:06:10,239
Speaker 2: The simple fact that he cites Huntington says a lot

1106
01:06:10,280 --> 01:06:13,039
about his intellectual position.

1107
01:06:15,280 --> 01:06:18,559
Speaker 1: It also includes general relations between sexes, as well as

1108
01:06:18,599 --> 01:06:21,239
the rights of homosexuals, as well as many of the

1109
01:06:21,320 --> 01:06:24,280
rights many Westerners hold deer in both their private lives

1110
01:06:24,599 --> 01:06:29,599
and at the socio political arena. As of twenty fifteen,

1111
01:06:29,719 --> 01:06:32,000
Muslims form about eight percent of the population of the

1112
01:06:32,039 --> 01:06:35,280
European Union. I wonder what that is now.

1113
01:06:36,159 --> 01:06:40,119
Speaker 2: Yeah, that is also why the unofficial reason why basically

1114
01:06:40,159 --> 01:06:45,280
everybody opposed Turkey's admission into the European Union because Turkey

1115
01:06:45,280 --> 01:06:49,920
would immediately become the most populous state in the European Union,

1116
01:06:51,679 --> 01:06:54,679
so it would be a huge shift in balance in

1117
01:06:54,760 --> 01:06:59,039
terms of Muslims there. I will say that, keep in

1118
01:06:59,079 --> 01:07:03,039
mind because citizenship laws are so much different in Western Europe,

1119
01:07:03,199 --> 01:07:06,719
that eight percent probably does not reflect huge numbers of

1120
01:07:06,719 --> 01:07:09,400
long term migrants, to include people who are, you know,

1121
01:07:09,480 --> 01:07:12,320
their third generation in a country, who are not citizens

1122
01:07:13,039 --> 01:07:14,559
of their respective countries.

1123
01:07:17,239 --> 01:07:20,760
Speaker 1: In large cities, especially wealthy ones situated on important communication

1124
01:07:20,880 --> 01:07:24,039
lines for featuring seaports, the percentage of Muslims tends to

1125
01:07:24,119 --> 01:07:27,360
be much higher. In some cities, entire neighborhoods have been

1126
01:07:27,360 --> 01:07:30,360
taken over and reshaped in accordance with the migrants' preferences.

1127
01:07:30,840 --> 01:07:34,679
These neighborhoods, such as Tower Hamlets in East London and

1128
01:07:34,760 --> 01:07:39,800
the Kurrigham district in Brussels have assumed a decidedly Mohammedan character,

1129
01:07:40,159 --> 01:07:47,400
complete with mosques, veiled women and Muish moisans moisans calling

1130
01:07:47,440 --> 01:07:51,159
the faithful to prayer. Most of those neighborhoods are slums

1131
01:07:51,199 --> 01:07:55,320
where the inhabitants tend to be unskilled, under educated, and unemployed.

1132
01:07:56,079 --> 01:07:58,199
Many of their residents cannot even speak the language of

1133
01:07:58,239 --> 01:08:01,880
their hosts. Further hitting the situation, the newcomers lose their

1134
01:08:02,360 --> 01:08:05,519
accustomed control over wives and children, who tend to be

1135
01:08:05,559 --> 01:08:10,199
more amenable to integration. This ongoing intra family conflict not infrequently,

1136
01:08:10,199 --> 01:08:14,639
at least to domestic violence. Muslim immigrants often feel underprivileged

1137
01:08:14,639 --> 01:08:18,680
and discriminated against, even though they are living off the largesse.

1138
01:08:19,039 --> 01:08:21,479
One might even say the tribute of the people whose

1139
01:08:21,560 --> 01:08:23,760
lands they occupy or are occupying.

1140
01:08:24,319 --> 01:08:25,960
Speaker 2: I was going to take a moment to point out

1141
01:08:25,960 --> 01:08:28,960
that the issue with language not only do they do

1142
01:08:29,039 --> 01:08:31,960
a poor job of adopting the language of their host country,

1143
01:08:32,359 --> 01:08:34,960
the fact they're cut off from the education system in

1144
01:08:35,000 --> 01:08:38,119
their original country of origin. Large number of their children

1145
01:08:38,119 --> 01:08:41,319
don't grow up speaking you know, proper Arabic or do

1146
01:08:41,560 --> 01:08:43,880
or whatever. So you get a lot of people who

1147
01:08:43,960 --> 01:08:47,560
speak the equivalent of I don't know what's the best

1148
01:08:47,600 --> 01:08:50,960
way to say ebonics, except they're not obviously black. They're

1149
01:08:50,960 --> 01:08:54,119
speaking a non language that's of such a poor qualility

1150
01:08:54,159 --> 01:08:57,880
that it's like they're not educated in anything.

1151
01:08:59,720 --> 01:09:05,600
Speaker 1: What's interesting here is when he talks about the losing

1152
01:09:06,079 --> 01:09:11,600
losing control to becoming a customed and becoming integrated. That's

1153
01:09:11,640 --> 01:09:14,239
exactly what happened to the Jews when they were in

1154
01:09:14,399 --> 01:09:19,119
countries that liberalized. They were able to come out from

1155
01:09:19,199 --> 01:09:23,159
under the uh under the power of their rabbis, and

1156
01:09:23,399 --> 01:09:26,119
they basically that they would then petition for their own

1157
01:09:26,199 --> 01:09:27,920
rights to get away from their rabbis.

1158
01:09:28,279 --> 01:09:31,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, it is a secular person who's ethnically Jewish who

1159
01:09:32,800 --> 01:09:35,119
you know he would probably say that explicitly.

1160
01:09:36,319 --> 01:09:41,159
Speaker 1: Yeah, but what was this one further complicated the situation.

1161
01:09:41,239 --> 01:09:43,840
The newcomers losed our custom control over wives and children.

1162
01:09:43,880 --> 01:09:46,479
It's send to be more amenable to integration. This ongoing

1163
01:09:46,479 --> 01:09:49,920
intra family conflict not in frequent, at least a domestic violence.

1164
01:09:50,199 --> 01:09:54,039
Muslim immigrants often feel underprivileged and discriminated against, even though

1165
01:09:54,039 --> 01:09:56,119
they were living off the largest One might even say

1166
01:09:56,119 --> 01:09:58,720
tribute to the lib I already read that sorry. It

1167
01:09:58,800 --> 01:10:00,439
is true that only a small person serge of the

1168
01:10:00,520 --> 01:10:04,600
immigrants in question turn to violence, let alone politically motivated violence.

1169
01:10:04,760 --> 01:10:07,079
But it is also true that in all the countries

1170
01:10:07,079 --> 01:10:10,520
to which they have immigrated, Muslim immigrants are committing crimes

1171
01:10:10,560 --> 01:10:13,520
that a rate that far exceeds the native population. A

1172
01:10:13,560 --> 01:10:16,199
portion of this crime represents a continuation of politics that

1173
01:10:16,279 --> 01:10:20,319
is indistinguishable from terrorism and will inevitably lead to harsh

1174
01:10:20,359 --> 01:10:23,199
countermeasures and eventually reprisals.

1175
01:10:23,560 --> 01:10:25,199
Speaker 2: Again, migration is war.

1176
01:10:26,880 --> 01:10:29,520
Speaker 1: The present situation is more than a little reminiscent of

1177
01:10:29,600 --> 01:10:32,960
past migration inspired wars and bodes ill for the future.

1178
01:10:33,199 --> 01:10:35,560
It is estimated that as many as five million of

1179
01:10:35,560 --> 01:10:41,920
France's Muslims already live in zone zones orbanes, sensibly where

1180
01:10:41,960 --> 01:10:45,880
the French police and government have relatively little control, what

1181
01:10:45,920 --> 01:10:50,680
we call no go zones. The modern form of economic

1182
01:10:50,720 --> 01:10:53,560
migration is not caused by war, but it is threatening

1183
01:10:53,600 --> 01:10:57,199
to turn into a cause of war, and as has

1184
01:10:57,239 --> 01:11:01,079
happened many times before. An informative exams of how minority

1185
01:11:01,159 --> 01:11:03,920
majority conflict can lead to violence can be seen in

1186
01:11:03,960 --> 01:11:07,560
the sixteenth century France. For thirty years following John Calvin's

1187
01:11:07,600 --> 01:11:11,079
break from the Roman Church in fifteen thirty, Catholics and

1188
01:11:11,159 --> 01:11:14,880
Huguenots looked at each other with increasing mistrust. This mistrust

1189
01:11:14,880 --> 01:11:19,720
occasionally sparks sporadic violence, and over time the violence gradually escalated.

1190
01:11:20,039 --> 01:11:23,479
In fifteen sixty two, with the Ugenots outnumbering with the

1191
01:11:23,479 --> 01:11:26,319
Eugonots numbering twelve point five percent of the French population,

1192
01:11:26,840 --> 01:11:30,159
full scale war finally broke out. The religious issues were

1193
01:11:30,159 --> 01:11:34,359
intertwined with political differences in foreign powers such as England

1194
01:11:34,399 --> 01:11:39,199
Spain and England Spain, the Low Countries, various German princes,

1195
01:11:39,399 --> 01:11:42,880
and even the Papacy were drawn into the battle. By

1196
01:11:42,920 --> 01:11:45,439
the time Henry the Fourth was finally able to put

1197
01:11:45,479 --> 01:11:47,960
an end to the Eight Wars of Religion in fifteen

1198
01:11:48,039 --> 01:11:52,560
ninety eight by issuing the Edict of Nuntis, more Frenchmen

1199
01:11:52,640 --> 01:11:55,239
had been killed than in any other conflict prior to

1200
01:11:55,239 --> 01:12:03,119
World War I, including the French Revolution and the Napoleonic Wars. Conclusions,

1201
01:12:05,079 --> 01:12:08,600
war is far from the only cause of migration. Other reasons,

1202
01:12:08,640 --> 01:12:11,800
primarily economic, have always played an important part in encouraging

1203
01:12:11,800 --> 01:12:14,920
people to leave their native lens, as the examples of

1204
01:12:14,960 --> 01:12:18,039
the Puritans and the Hugonots show religious motives can also

1205
01:12:18,079 --> 01:12:21,359
be a factor. Yet, even when these other reasons were

1206
01:12:21,399 --> 01:12:24,399
the cause, war and migration have been closely linked in

1207
01:12:24,479 --> 01:12:28,760
various and complex ways. At some times, war and migration

1208
01:12:28,840 --> 01:12:31,359
were essentially the same, as in the Great Migration of

1209
01:12:31,399 --> 01:12:35,439
peoples during the first few centuries after Christ, the Arab

1210
01:12:35,520 --> 01:12:38,159
expansion after six point thirty two a d. The Maggiar

1211
01:12:38,279 --> 01:12:41,520
invasion of Europe, the Mongol invasions of China, and the

1212
01:12:41,560 --> 01:12:43,840
movements of many African tribes from one part of the

1213
01:12:43,840 --> 01:12:47,279
continent to another. At other times, the relationships between the

1214
01:12:47,279 --> 01:12:50,439
two phenomena were more complicated, such as ethnic cleansings that

1215
01:12:50,479 --> 01:12:54,960
rendered war unnecessary or took place after war's end, massi

1216
01:12:54,960 --> 01:12:58,840
avoidance of conscription, or soldiers bringing home concubines and war brides.

1217
01:12:59,800 --> 01:13:04,119
These various forms have often intermingled. All appear regularly in

1218
01:13:04,159 --> 01:13:07,359
the annals of human history, and all will doubtless will

1219
01:13:07,359 --> 01:13:11,279
doubtless continue to do so in the future. The only

1220
01:13:11,319 --> 01:13:14,600
thing that changes in their relative importance at any their

1221
01:13:14,680 --> 01:13:17,720
only thing that changes is their relative importance at any

1222
01:13:17,760 --> 01:13:21,840
given point in time. As far as the West is concerned,

1223
01:13:21,880 --> 01:13:25,239
the most significant migration today is the massive influx of Muslims.

1224
01:13:25,760 --> 01:13:28,600
The reason is that, unlike the people of the secularized West,

1225
01:13:28,800 --> 01:13:31,439
Muslims take their religion and the way of life it

1226
01:13:31,520 --> 01:13:35,319
prescribes seriously. As a consequence, they are much harder to

1227
01:13:35,359 --> 01:13:38,359
integrate than other more malleable immigrants.

1228
01:13:39,079 --> 01:13:42,199
Speaker 2: Understand, this is basically the only reason anybody in the

1229
01:13:42,279 --> 01:13:45,479
establishment in the West is concerned about this issue. It's

1230
01:13:45,520 --> 01:13:48,239
also a large part of why, you know, parts of

1231
01:13:48,239 --> 01:13:50,439
the interior of America, like the South, especially why the

1232
01:13:50,560 --> 01:13:55,640
establishment hates us is because where people who still believe

1233
01:13:55,680 --> 01:13:58,479
in religion and still live it as opposed to just

1234
01:13:58,560 --> 01:14:00,640
treating it as a window, dressing them means nothing.

1235
01:14:03,479 --> 01:14:06,119
Speaker 1: For the present. It would be going too far to

1236
01:14:06,159 --> 01:14:08,520
say that the refuge It would be going too far

1237
01:14:08,600 --> 01:14:10,960
to say that the refugees, as well as those who

1238
01:14:11,000 --> 01:14:13,439
are responsible for their plight back in their homelands, are

1239
01:14:13,479 --> 01:14:16,760
actively waging war against the West. They lack the leadership

1240
01:14:16,800 --> 01:14:19,800
and organization required for the effective large scale violence at

1241
01:14:19,840 --> 01:14:22,960
war entails. However, it must be recognized that more than

1242
01:14:23,000 --> 01:14:24,960
a few in their midst are not averse to using

1243
01:14:25,039 --> 01:14:28,199
violence in order to achieve their aims. They have, after all,

1244
01:14:28,279 --> 01:14:30,800
invaded numerous countries without regard for the will of the

1245
01:14:30,800 --> 01:14:33,920
people of those countries, and their presence is no less

1246
01:14:33,960 --> 01:14:38,640
likely to spark resistance than armed invasions of the past.

1247
01:14:39,279 --> 01:14:44,920
Since war, as Klaus klaus Witz teaches, has a built

1248
01:14:44,920 --> 01:14:48,079
in tendency to escalate, the resistance can be expected to

1249
01:14:48,119 --> 01:14:53,239
graduate into all out armed conflicts over time, especially as

1250
01:14:53,239 --> 01:14:56,720
seems likely if the influx continues and all the valiant

1251
01:14:56,720 --> 01:15:01,159
efforts at integration proved feudal from Berlin to Jerusalem. Let

1252
01:15:01,199 --> 01:15:07,960
those with ears to listen, listen and that's it.

1253
01:15:08,239 --> 01:15:10,199
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, the.

1254
01:15:11,680 --> 01:15:12,439
Speaker 1: What was I going to say?

1255
01:15:12,439 --> 01:15:12,720
Speaker 3: There?

1256
01:15:13,560 --> 01:15:19,199
Speaker 1: The if we see this now? Yeah, there there are

1257
01:15:19,199 --> 01:15:24,359
reports coming out of Springfield that Haitians are just walking

1258
01:15:24,359 --> 01:15:27,359
into gun stores and they're selling them guns.

1259
01:15:28,000 --> 01:15:30,760
Speaker 2: Mm hmmm. Well again, I mean part of the problem

1260
01:15:30,880 --> 01:15:33,560
is if you were not to sell them, you know,

1261
01:15:33,640 --> 01:15:35,920
one report to the ATF and you're probably going to

1262
01:15:35,960 --> 01:15:38,800
lose your license because race is now the sin.

1263
01:15:39,279 --> 01:15:44,000
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, I mean FFL officially, anybody who holds an

1264
01:15:44,039 --> 01:15:47,840
f FL is allowed to refuse sale to anyone for

1265
01:15:47,880 --> 01:15:50,960
any reason. Yeah, that is officially.

1266
01:15:50,680 --> 01:15:53,760
Speaker 2: Officially, But if that reason is racism, you know, suddenly

1267
01:15:53,800 --> 01:15:56,880
all of your justifications go out that's the magic word

1268
01:15:56,880 --> 01:15:59,920
that ends up their magic word, that is the state

1269
01:16:00,159 --> 01:16:02,119
exception in contemporary society.

1270
01:16:03,520 --> 01:16:07,439
Speaker 1: And also he mentions that they have no leadership to

1271
01:16:07,479 --> 01:16:10,840
expect them to wage war, they have no leadership they

1272
01:16:10,880 --> 01:16:14,359
have well, I mean it almost seems like they do now.

1273
01:16:14,479 --> 01:16:17,720
I mean if they're being flown in here, yeah, and

1274
01:16:17,840 --> 01:16:22,880
given basically given places to live and given vehicles, and

1275
01:16:22,920 --> 01:16:27,479
they're allowed to buy they One may not say that

1276
01:16:28,479 --> 01:16:32,439
some that power is colluding with them to commit violence,

1277
01:16:32,760 --> 01:16:37,399
but one could say that power is definitely creating the

1278
01:16:37,479 --> 01:16:40,399
opportunity and then looking the other way, and not only

1279
01:16:40,399 --> 01:16:43,600
looking the other way, but would do anything to if

1280
01:16:43,800 --> 01:16:46,520
somebody were to get jammed up by the law, to

1281
01:16:46,600 --> 01:16:48,439
make sure that they walk away.

1282
01:16:48,720 --> 01:16:51,159
Speaker 2: Yeah, and leadership doesn't have to always be internal. It

1283
01:16:51,159 --> 01:16:55,359
can be external. It can even be hidden. As much

1284
01:16:55,359 --> 01:16:57,920
as I generally think most conspiracy theories are bullshit, that

1285
01:16:57,920 --> 01:17:01,560
doesn't mean that people don't conspire and that some of

1286
01:17:01,560 --> 01:17:05,439
these actions don't achieve some level of scale. So Yeah,

1287
01:17:05,439 --> 01:17:08,520
whether or not it's explicit, I think a lot of

1288
01:17:08,520 --> 01:17:12,000
it is in a thousand or probably a billion, you know,

1289
01:17:12,119 --> 01:17:15,279
little nudges along the way to produce a result. Which

1290
01:17:15,279 --> 01:17:21,359
functionally is the same thing. Again, migration is war, and

1291
01:17:22,039 --> 01:17:24,319
you know, very little in human nature has ever changed,

1292
01:17:24,399 --> 01:17:28,960
and we continue to be human, which, again I think

1293
01:17:29,079 --> 01:17:34,119
progressivism is largely a rejection of the fundamentals of human nature.

1294
01:17:35,600 --> 01:17:40,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I appreciate. I appreciate you bringing this one

1295
01:17:40,640 --> 01:17:42,720
up and bringing it to my attention so that we

1296
01:17:42,760 --> 01:17:45,319
could get out here and read it, for joining me,

1297
01:17:45,439 --> 01:17:49,239
for comments on it, and yeah, we'll do this again

1298
01:17:49,279 --> 01:17:52,279
real soon. I appreciate it and hope you feel better,

1299
01:17:52,399 --> 01:17:55,560
right problem, Take care man, Thank you.

1300
01:17:56,279 --> 01:17:56,479
Speaker 2: Don