WEBVTT 1 00:00:30.320 --> 00:00:31.920 Welcome back to the Pathway Chili. 2 00:00:32.039 --> 00:00:35.880 I'm Robin, I'm Jules, and I'm Ashley. 3 00:00:36.200 --> 00:00:38.280 Let's dive right into this week's case. 4 00:00:39.560 --> 00:00:44.960 October sixth, nineteen eighty three, British Columbia, Canada, twenty seven 5 00:00:45.000 --> 00:00:48.119 year old Burned Erica and his twenty two year old fiance, 6 00:00:48.359 --> 00:00:51.560 Andrea Sharp are found shot to death next to a 7 00:00:51.640 --> 00:00:54.960 remote road. The couple hailed from West Germany and had 8 00:00:54.960 --> 00:00:58.920 been hitchhiking through Canada, but an unidentified man driving a 9 00:00:58.920 --> 00:01:02.039 pickup truck is he when using Andrea's travelers checks in 10 00:01:02.039 --> 00:01:06.000 the days following her death. Six years later, a suspect 11 00:01:06.040 --> 00:01:08.519 named Andy Rose is charged with the crime based on 12 00:01:08.599 --> 00:01:11.920 testimony from a former friend who claimed she heard him 13 00:01:11.920 --> 00:01:16.480 confess to the murders. After two trials and two overturned convictions, 14 00:01:16.799 --> 00:01:20.879 the charges against Andy are dropped when DNA testing excludes 15 00:01:20.920 --> 00:01:23.680 him as the perpetrator, but no one else is ever 16 00:01:23.840 --> 00:01:25.760 charged with killing Burned and Andrea. 17 00:01:26.799 --> 00:01:30.200 After that, the path went Chiley. So today we are 18 00:01:30.239 --> 00:01:32.640 going to be covering an unsolved cold case which led 19 00:01:32.680 --> 00:01:35.840 to a wrongful conviction. The nineteen eighty three murders of 20 00:01:35.879 --> 00:01:39.280 Burnt Gerica and Andrea Shirp. You know we love to 21 00:01:39.280 --> 00:01:42.120 cover wrongful conviction cases on a show because this is 22 00:01:42.159 --> 00:01:45.319 a topic that Ashley is very knowledgeable and passionate about. 23 00:01:45.560 --> 00:01:47.200 But this is the first time we have covered one 24 00:01:47.239 --> 00:01:50.159 of these stories from Jewels and I's home country of Canada. 25 00:01:50.959 --> 00:01:53.519 Our two victims were a West German couple named Burnt 26 00:01:53.519 --> 00:01:56.560 Gerica and Andrea Shirp, who have been making a lengthy 27 00:01:56.599 --> 00:02:00.000 two month trip through western Canada. They relied on hitch 28 00:02:00.079 --> 00:02:03.599 hiking as their primary mode of transportation, but unfortunately, while 29 00:02:03.599 --> 00:02:06.159 they were in British Columbia, it seemed like they hitch 30 00:02:06.200 --> 00:02:08.719 a ride with the wrong person, who fatally shot the 31 00:02:08.759 --> 00:02:11.520 couple and robbed them of all their personal possessions before 32 00:02:11.560 --> 00:02:14.400 dumping their bodies. It would not be until six years 33 00:02:14.439 --> 00:02:17.599 later when police finally charged a suspect named Danny Rose, 34 00:02:17.800 --> 00:02:20.240 a Newfoundland resident who had been living and working in 35 00:02:20.280 --> 00:02:23.599 British Columbia at the time of the murders. The problem 36 00:02:23.680 --> 00:02:26.400 was that the only evidence against Annie was the testimony 37 00:02:26.439 --> 00:02:28.199 of a woman who claimed that he showed up at 38 00:02:28.240 --> 00:02:30.759 her trailer one night while covered in blood and made 39 00:02:30.759 --> 00:02:33.960 a drunken confession to the murders. Even though there were 40 00:02:33.960 --> 00:02:36.759 a number of logistical issues which made it almost seem 41 00:02:36.800 --> 00:02:39.919 impossible that Andy could have committed this crime. He was 42 00:02:39.960 --> 00:02:43.159 found guilty by two separate juries at two separate trials. 43 00:02:43.960 --> 00:02:45.840 Andy was in the midst of going on trial for 44 00:02:45.879 --> 00:02:48.280 the third time in two thousand and one when the 45 00:02:48.280 --> 00:02:51.680 prosecution decided to drop the murder charges against him as 46 00:02:51.800 --> 00:02:54.599 DNA evidence from a pair of bloody genes found near 47 00:02:54.599 --> 00:02:58.000 the murder scene did not match him. Thus far, no 48 00:02:58.080 --> 00:03:00.240 one else has ever been charged with this crime. While 49 00:03:00.280 --> 00:03:03.960 the investigation did turn up a compelling alternate suspect who 50 00:03:04.039 --> 00:03:07.199 also allegedly confessed to the murders, the evidence does not 51 00:03:07.240 --> 00:03:11.000 really point towards him either. On this series of episodes, 52 00:03:11.080 --> 00:03:14.319 we're also going to be discussing a controversial police procedure 53 00:03:14.680 --> 00:03:17.639 known as the Mister Big technique, which was invented by 54 00:03:17.680 --> 00:03:20.680 the Royal Canadian Mountain Police and is actually banned in 55 00:03:20.719 --> 00:03:23.159 the United States, though it has played a role in 56 00:03:23.199 --> 00:03:26.479 some controversial convictions in Canada. 57 00:03:26.680 --> 00:03:29.240 Okay, I have two things I want to ask you about. 58 00:03:29.360 --> 00:03:31.719 First of all, I've heard of the Mister Big technique. 59 00:03:31.800 --> 00:03:34.639 Isn't it almost like the read techniques that's designed to 60 00:03:34.719 --> 00:03:37.120 elicit a confession from someone. 61 00:03:37.439 --> 00:03:40.960 It's very similar, but it involves undercover police officers, usually 62 00:03:41.000 --> 00:03:43.719 posing as criminals, and they try to use that as 63 00:03:43.759 --> 00:03:46.800 a means to get a confession out of a suspect 64 00:03:46.879 --> 00:03:49.319 by saying like, oh, we'll let you join our criminal 65 00:03:49.360 --> 00:03:51.960 gang if you tell us about all the murders you did. 66 00:03:52.319 --> 00:03:54.439 But there's a lot of controversy about it because you 67 00:03:54.520 --> 00:03:58.400 almost have to question the validity when they supposedly confess, 68 00:03:58.479 --> 00:04:01.680 because you're wondering, are they just tell the undercover officer 69 00:04:02.000 --> 00:04:04.800 what they want to hear by just bragging about a 70 00:04:04.840 --> 00:04:06.840 prime they did not commit, as. 71 00:04:06.680 --> 00:04:08.639 You Americans call it entropment. 72 00:04:09.879 --> 00:04:15.159 Yes, sense, so basically where the read techniques are controversial, 73 00:04:15.479 --> 00:04:19.040 But it's a uniformed officer who's sitting in an interrogation room. 74 00:04:19.120 --> 00:04:22.959 This is a group of officers undercover who are making 75 00:04:23.120 --> 00:04:27.399 promises and offering something attractive to that person who doesn't 76 00:04:27.439 --> 00:04:30.240 know their law enforcement to solicit a confession. 77 00:04:30.519 --> 00:04:32.519 Exactly. Yes, Okay, well. 78 00:04:32.560 --> 00:04:36.560 Highly controversial, Okay, I can buy that. I'm also highly 79 00:04:36.600 --> 00:04:38.759 concerned about a couple of things that you've already told me. 80 00:04:39.120 --> 00:04:42.439 When we're talking about this woman who says he shows 81 00:04:42.519 --> 00:04:47.199 up bloody and confesses to a murder. You described her 82 00:04:47.240 --> 00:04:50.480 as a former friend. Do we later find out that 83 00:04:50.480 --> 00:04:52.839 that confession never took place, or that he actually did 84 00:04:52.879 --> 00:04:54.160 make a drunken confession. 85 00:04:54.600 --> 00:04:57.360 He always denied making that confession, And of course it 86 00:04:57.399 --> 00:05:00.240 was very suspicious because she didn't actually come f forward 87 00:05:00.319 --> 00:05:02.439 herself to share this story. We're going to find out 88 00:05:02.480 --> 00:05:05.000 that it was shared kind of third hand by another 89 00:05:05.040 --> 00:05:06.759 friend of hers, who said that, by the way, she 90 00:05:06.879 --> 00:05:09.160 told me one time, someone came to her trailer, well 91 00:05:09.199 --> 00:05:12.399 bloody and confess to this double murder. So obviously there 92 00:05:12.399 --> 00:05:15.639 were a lot of credibility issues. And what was particularly 93 00:05:15.680 --> 00:05:18.360 problematic about this case is that this was literally the 94 00:05:18.399 --> 00:05:22.800 only evidence proving that Andy Rose was responsible, Yet somehow 95 00:05:22.920 --> 00:05:25.240 the juries found it convincing enough to convict him on 96 00:05:25.279 --> 00:05:26.480 two separate occasions. 97 00:05:27.759 --> 00:05:31.160 I'm really frustrated because I can put into my mind 98 00:05:31.199 --> 00:05:33.920 a million scenarios where this woman would have a reason 99 00:05:34.360 --> 00:05:37.399 to make Andy look bad. Let's say she had formerly 100 00:05:37.480 --> 00:05:39.839 been interested in him and he wasn't interested. Let's say 101 00:05:39.839 --> 00:05:41.519 they had had a fling and she wasn't happy with 102 00:05:41.519 --> 00:05:43.279 the way it turned out. Let's say that they were 103 00:05:43.319 --> 00:05:45.639 friends and he did something that made her mad. There's 104 00:05:45.680 --> 00:05:47.879 a lot of reasons why people would even let's say, 105 00:05:47.879 --> 00:05:50.120 well she was drinking and hanging out with friends, would 106 00:05:50.120 --> 00:05:53.079 throw someone else under the bus. And so that's really 107 00:05:53.120 --> 00:05:56.360 problematic that one he doesn't say like, yeah, I did it, 108 00:05:56.519 --> 00:05:59.439 or he doesn't confess to law enforcement, which in and 109 00:05:59.480 --> 00:06:04.240 of itself doesn't necessarily prove anything. Either, he has this person, who, 110 00:06:04.279 --> 00:06:07.160 like you said, third party, is saying that he's guilty 111 00:06:07.199 --> 00:06:10.160 and he did this and confessed to her. And then 112 00:06:10.240 --> 00:06:15.399 we also have some unidentified individual who was using Andrea's 113 00:06:15.480 --> 00:06:19.639 travelers checks in some pickup truck. Remember they were hitch hiking, 114 00:06:20.000 --> 00:06:21.920 so it makes a lot of sense that you would 115 00:06:21.959 --> 00:06:25.079 think maybe someone they ran into while hitchhiking, hurt them, 116 00:06:25.519 --> 00:06:29.399 took their belongings and started using their travelers checks. That's 117 00:06:29.439 --> 00:06:31.920 the person I want to know about. And somehow Andy 118 00:06:31.959 --> 00:06:34.759 gets tied into this just because some woman who could 119 00:06:34.800 --> 00:06:37.600 have been upset with him says he confessed to her 120 00:06:37.720 --> 00:06:38.920 through a third party. 121 00:06:40.120 --> 00:06:42.680 And when you look at the timeline, it seems impossible 122 00:06:42.680 --> 00:06:45.240 that Andy could have been at these locations to use 123 00:06:45.240 --> 00:06:47.879 the travelers checks. It seems obvious it was somebody else. 124 00:06:48.319 --> 00:06:50.480 So yeah, this is definitely one of the weakest cases 125 00:06:50.480 --> 00:06:52.560 I've ever seen where someone went to trial and it 126 00:06:52.680 --> 00:06:55.480 still managed to secure a guilty verdict. 127 00:06:56.519 --> 00:06:59.480 And they did they go and do their due diligence 128 00:06:59.519 --> 00:07:02.759 with regards to testing the veracity of her statement. I mean, 129 00:07:02.800 --> 00:07:05.160 we know polygraphs are controversial, but did they give her 130 00:07:05.199 --> 00:07:08.000 a polygraph? Did they talk to other people in her 131 00:07:08.040 --> 00:07:10.720 life to see if she was indeed a credible witness? 132 00:07:10.800 --> 00:07:13.279 Do you know, Robin, Well, we're going to talk about that. 133 00:07:13.319 --> 00:07:15.639 They actually had to wear a wire and have a 134 00:07:15.680 --> 00:07:18.720 conversation a phone conversation with Andy years after the fact, 135 00:07:18.720 --> 00:07:21.800 but he never actually made any incriminating statements to back 136 00:07:21.879 --> 00:07:24.120 up her story that he confessed to this murder. 137 00:07:25.319 --> 00:07:28.199 So our story begins in my home province of British 138 00:07:28.240 --> 00:07:32.360 Columbia in nineteen eighty three. Our central figures our twenty 139 00:07:32.399 --> 00:07:35.079 seven year old Burned, Gerica and his twenty two year 140 00:07:35.079 --> 00:07:40.600 old fiance, Andrea Shirp, who originally hail from Bulga, West Germany. 141 00:07:40.639 --> 00:07:44.759 Following his graduation from university, Burned received an extended trip 142 00:07:44.800 --> 00:07:47.920 to Canada as a gift, so he and Andrea decided 143 00:07:47.920 --> 00:07:50.480 that they would spend nearly two months traveling through the 144 00:07:50.480 --> 00:07:53.639 western portion of the country. A good chunk of this 145 00:07:53.680 --> 00:07:56.800 trip would involve camping and backpacking, and they planned to 146 00:07:56.879 --> 00:08:00.839 use hitchhiking as their primary mode of transportation. The couple 147 00:08:00.879 --> 00:08:04.839 first touched down in Winnipeg, Manitoba, on August eighteenth, before 148 00:08:04.879 --> 00:08:08.720 going to visit relatives in the municipality of Roblin for 149 00:08:08.759 --> 00:08:11.279 the next several weeks. They proceeded to hitchhike their way 150 00:08:11.319 --> 00:08:15.600 through Saskatchewan, Alberta, and British Columbia, and when they arrived 151 00:08:15.600 --> 00:08:18.720 in the municipality of Port Hardy, they boarded a ferry 152 00:08:18.759 --> 00:08:21.120 which took them to the port city of Prince Rupert. 153 00:08:21.759 --> 00:08:24.199 From there, they proceeded to travel north and cross the 154 00:08:24.240 --> 00:08:27.800 border into Haines, Alaska, before crossing the border back into 155 00:08:27.839 --> 00:08:31.120 Canada and continuing up north to Whitehorse, the capital city 156 00:08:31.160 --> 00:08:34.960 in the Yukon Territory. At some point, Burned and Andrea 157 00:08:35.000 --> 00:08:38.480 started heading back south into British Columbia, as they were 158 00:08:38.480 --> 00:08:41.159 scheduled to return back home by boarding a flight from 159 00:08:41.240 --> 00:08:45.799 Vancouver to Frankfurt, Germany, on October seventh. The last confirmed 160 00:08:45.799 --> 00:08:49.360 sighting of the couple took place on October third, as 161 00:08:49.360 --> 00:08:52.960 they were seen hitchhiking in Dawson Creek, nearly twelve hundred 162 00:08:53.000 --> 00:08:57.200 kilometers northeast of Vancouver, but unfortunately they would not make 163 00:08:57.240 --> 00:09:01.519 their flight. On October sixth a low resident discovered Burned 164 00:09:01.519 --> 00:09:04.440 in Andrea's bodies in a field next to an isolated 165 00:09:04.519 --> 00:09:07.679 road about a half kilometer away from Highway ninety seven. 166 00:09:08.559 --> 00:09:10.399 Burned had been shot once in the back of the 167 00:09:10.440 --> 00:09:13.519 head and once in the face, while Andrea received a 168 00:09:13.519 --> 00:09:17.159 fatal gunshot wound to the temple. The location was about 169 00:09:17.200 --> 00:09:21.559 thirty two kilometers west of the district municipality of chetwind 170 00:09:21.679 --> 00:09:23.879 and it was estimated that the couple had been dead 171 00:09:23.960 --> 00:09:28.480 about three days before their bodies were discovered. The investigation 172 00:09:28.600 --> 00:09:32.080 would be headed by the Royal Canadian Mounted Police aka 173 00:09:32.159 --> 00:09:36.039 the RCMP, and they initially could not even identify the 174 00:09:36.039 --> 00:09:40.440 two victims because their identification, including their passports and driver's licenses, 175 00:09:40.639 --> 00:09:44.279 were missing. In fact, all of the items which Burned 176 00:09:44.279 --> 00:09:48.799 and Andrea had been carrying, including their backpacks, clothing, camping equipment, 177 00:09:48.879 --> 00:09:51.960 and a guitar Burned owned, were presumably stolen by the 178 00:09:52.000 --> 00:09:56.000 person who killed them, and they were never recovered, which 179 00:09:56.039 --> 00:09:56.399 makes me. 180 00:09:56.399 --> 00:09:59.240 Incredibly suspicious of the person who was using the cashier 181 00:09:59.320 --> 00:10:02.919 checks or the checks, because they obviously are unidentified. They're 182 00:10:02.960 --> 00:10:06.200 driving this truck. I could easily see them pulling over 183 00:10:06.759 --> 00:10:09.200 and talking to this couple and saying, hey, I can 184 00:10:09.240 --> 00:10:11.840 give you a ride, no problem. These are young kids. 185 00:10:11.879 --> 00:10:14.399 They're just floating from place to place. They were known 186 00:10:14.480 --> 00:10:17.759 to be hitch hiking, and so to me, it makes 187 00:10:17.759 --> 00:10:20.639 the most sense that that truck pulls over says that 188 00:10:20.679 --> 00:10:24.200 they can take these kids somewhere and then when they 189 00:10:24.840 --> 00:10:27.759 execute them is basically what happened. They steal all of 190 00:10:27.799 --> 00:10:31.320 their belongings and I'm sure scattered them along the way somewhere, 191 00:10:31.600 --> 00:10:34.080 but those checks were used. Those had to be on 192 00:10:34.159 --> 00:10:38.559 Andrea's persons before she was killed, because I can't imagine 193 00:10:38.600 --> 00:10:41.039 someone robbing them and them not reporting that or not 194 00:10:41.080 --> 00:10:43.919 saying anything and saying, oh, someone took my checks, but 195 00:10:43.919 --> 00:10:46.159 that's okay, We're just going to keep on going. That 196 00:10:46.200 --> 00:10:49.240 would be a major problem. If you were hitch hiking 197 00:10:49.320 --> 00:10:51.919 someone robbed you and took your money and access to 198 00:10:51.960 --> 00:10:55.399 your bank accounts, you would have said something. So that 199 00:10:55.600 --> 00:10:58.559 had to be tied into the person who killed them, 200 00:10:58.840 --> 00:11:01.000 because everything else was this scene as well. So it 201 00:11:01.080 --> 00:11:04.120 makes sense that whoever had those checks also killed this couple. 202 00:11:06.080 --> 00:11:08.080 Yeah, I definitely think that's what happened. That they were 203 00:11:08.080 --> 00:11:10.600 picked up hitchhiking by the wrong person who proceeded to 204 00:11:10.679 --> 00:11:13.799 kill them, and that person continued traveling south and using 205 00:11:14.080 --> 00:11:17.200 Andrea's checks. And cases like this are just a time 206 00:11:17.240 --> 00:11:19.879 capsule of a much different era where no one thought 207 00:11:19.960 --> 00:11:22.480 too much about the dangers of hitchhiking, and you hear 208 00:11:22.600 --> 00:11:26.279 stories about people traveling to foreign countries and hitch hiking 209 00:11:26.360 --> 00:11:29.639 the entire way, and unfortunately, cases like this are pretty 210 00:11:29.720 --> 00:11:33.200 much the ultimate cautionary tales and show why people know 211 00:11:33.399 --> 00:11:36.960 these days that hitch hiking should not be done and correctly. 212 00:11:37.000 --> 00:11:40.240 If I'm wrong, Robin, bit, aren't some of these areas 213 00:11:40.279 --> 00:11:43.080 in which they were traveling and where they were found 214 00:11:43.120 --> 00:11:45.720 close to the Highway of Tears. Isn't it Highway ninety seven? 215 00:11:46.799 --> 00:11:50.759 Uh? Let me just double check that I should know this. Yeah, yeah, 216 00:11:50.759 --> 00:11:51.720 because you live in the area. 217 00:11:51.960 --> 00:11:52.799 I almost think you're right. 218 00:11:52.799 --> 00:11:55.759 I almost think you're right, Jewels, Oh, it's Highway sixteen. 219 00:11:55.840 --> 00:11:57.919 Actually, is it Highway sixteen? Okay? 220 00:11:58.559 --> 00:12:00.240 But yeah, this was the era of the of the 221 00:12:00.279 --> 00:12:02.320 Highway of Tears, where a lot of people were murdered 222 00:12:02.399 --> 00:12:03.919 hitchhiking in British Columbia. 223 00:12:04.840 --> 00:12:06.799 Okay, I have a very important question too. Is the 224 00:12:06.879 --> 00:12:09.440 Dawson's Creek? You mentioned the Dawson's Creek that I fell 225 00:12:09.480 --> 00:12:13.799 in love with in my teen TV show. No, okay, 226 00:12:13.919 --> 00:12:15.639 I just had to make sure. I just had to 227 00:12:15.679 --> 00:12:16.200 make sure. 228 00:12:16.759 --> 00:12:20.879 Go on this to be clear. This is Dawson Creek 229 00:12:20.919 --> 00:12:23.039 without an S on the end, so it's totally different. 230 00:12:23.519 --> 00:12:25.080 Yeah, he doesn't own it. Okay, that's fair. 231 00:12:25.240 --> 00:12:31.200 Fair. A forensic pathologist who conducted postmortem examinations on Burnt 232 00:12:31.240 --> 00:12:34.240 and Andrea was unable to determine the exact make and 233 00:12:34.320 --> 00:12:36.960 model of the bullets and guns used during the murders, 234 00:12:37.240 --> 00:12:39.360 but she fell it was consistent with either a thirty 235 00:12:39.399 --> 00:12:43.360 eight caliber or three fifty seven magnum handgun. The pathologists 236 00:12:43.399 --> 00:12:46.759 also suspected that the victims might be European, which prompted 237 00:12:46.799 --> 00:12:50.399 the RCMP to contact Interpol, and they eventually learned about 238 00:12:50.440 --> 00:12:52.879 a missing West German couple who had not returned home 239 00:12:52.919 --> 00:12:56.279 as scheduled from a trip to Canada. A friend of theirs, 240 00:12:56.279 --> 00:12:58.519 who lived in Edmonton, Alberta, had to be brought to 241 00:12:58.559 --> 00:13:01.519 British Columbia. To view the body, and they were positively 242 00:13:01.559 --> 00:13:05.399 identified as Burnt and Andrea on October the sixteenth, ten 243 00:13:05.480 --> 00:13:08.799 days after they were found. The most promising piece of 244 00:13:08.840 --> 00:13:11.559 evidence was a pair of PSI thirty four genes, which 245 00:13:11.600 --> 00:13:15.519 were discovered inside a waste disposal bin located alongside Highway 246 00:13:15.600 --> 00:13:19.200 ninety seven, about one kilometer south of the murder scene. 247 00:13:19.360 --> 00:13:22.559 The genes were heavily stained with blood spatter, particularly below 248 00:13:22.559 --> 00:13:25.679 the knees, and a forensic rologist determined that the blood 249 00:13:25.759 --> 00:13:29.039 was consistent with the two victims. There was also a 250 00:13:29.080 --> 00:13:32.759 bloodlike substance underneath Andrea's fingernails, which may have belonged to 251 00:13:32.799 --> 00:13:36.279 her killer. Investigators would also learn that on October the 252 00:13:36.360 --> 00:13:40.679 fourth and fifth American Express Travelers checks belonging to Andrea 253 00:13:40.960 --> 00:13:43.600 were used to purchase gasoline at no less than five 254 00:13:43.639 --> 00:13:48.279 service stations in Prince George Quinnell Mickley's Lake Lach Lajash 255 00:13:48.320 --> 00:13:51.320 and one hundred Mile House, which were all located hundreds 256 00:13:51.320 --> 00:13:54.519 of kilometers south of the murder scene. According to the 257 00:13:54.600 --> 00:13:57.759 various clerks at these stations, the individual who used these 258 00:13:57.840 --> 00:14:00.000 checks was a white male who appeared to be fed 259 00:14:00.159 --> 00:14:03.279 foot nine and approximately forty years old. And spoke with 260 00:14:03.320 --> 00:14:07.279 a slight American accent. He was also described as having straight, 261 00:14:07.360 --> 00:14:10.559 collar length, brown hair and slumped shoulders, and he was 262 00:14:10.639 --> 00:14:13.600 dressed in work clothes. The witnesses said that the man 263 00:14:13.639 --> 00:14:16.080 had a pleasant demeanor and did not do anything to 264 00:14:16.159 --> 00:14:19.480 arouse suspicion, which is why he agreed to accept travelers 265 00:14:19.519 --> 00:14:22.080 checks from him, and even though these checks had a 266 00:14:22.120 --> 00:14:24.960 woman's signature on them, the man was able to provide 267 00:14:25.000 --> 00:14:29.039 seemingly plausible stories to account for this. For instance, the 268 00:14:29.080 --> 00:14:31.679 clerk at the gas station in Mcleis's Lake said that 269 00:14:31.720 --> 00:14:33.600 the man told him he had bumped into a lady 270 00:14:33.639 --> 00:14:35.840 who ran out of gas up the road, so she 271 00:14:35.919 --> 00:14:38.600 gave him a signed ten dollars travelers check in order 272 00:14:38.639 --> 00:14:40.559 to fill up a gas can to bring back to her. 273 00:14:41.039 --> 00:14:44.240 The man was reportedly driving a green late nineteen sixties 274 00:14:44.279 --> 00:14:47.039 model pickup truck, which may have been a Chevrolet, but 275 00:14:47.159 --> 00:14:50.120 unfortunately none of the witnesses took down the license number. 276 00:14:50.639 --> 00:14:53.000 Even though a number of pickup truck owners from British 277 00:14:53.039 --> 00:14:56.240 Columbia were questioned by the RCMP, they were unable to 278 00:14:56.240 --> 00:14:59.600 find a match, and while two separate composite sketches were 279 00:14:59.600 --> 00:15:02.639 created and circulated for the mail driver. He could not 280 00:15:02.720 --> 00:15:03.519 be identified. 281 00:15:04.840 --> 00:15:06.759 I love how what threw them off was a quote 282 00:15:06.879 --> 00:15:10.879 lady's signature, because you know, I mean, most guys don't 283 00:15:10.879 --> 00:15:13.879 have a real pretty signature, but us women, I don't 284 00:15:13.879 --> 00:15:17.440 know that we have a distinct gendered signature. But Andrea 285 00:15:17.480 --> 00:15:19.320 is right at the top of the check as well. 286 00:15:19.480 --> 00:15:22.279 And so when he goes in and he's saying, hey, 287 00:15:22.679 --> 00:15:25.600 I have this traveler's check one A traveler's check is 288 00:15:25.840 --> 00:15:28.200 kind of an odd form of payment, maybe not so 289 00:15:28.279 --> 00:15:30.799 much back in the eighties, but you would think they'd 290 00:15:30.840 --> 00:15:34.240 scrutinize the check. It says Andrea at the top, and 291 00:15:34.720 --> 00:15:37.399 then he has to come up with these stories of hey, 292 00:15:37.440 --> 00:15:39.879 this woman gave me this check. She wants me to 293 00:15:39.919 --> 00:15:41.799 bring her car back. I'm just gassing it up for 294 00:15:42.360 --> 00:15:45.000 and like you said, because he seems pretty pleasant, which 295 00:15:45.000 --> 00:15:48.000 means he doesn't appear to be this kind of criminal 296 00:15:48.080 --> 00:15:51.720 mastermind or some gang leader or anything like that. It 297 00:15:51.840 --> 00:15:55.480 seems as though people just believe him and doesn't really 298 00:15:55.519 --> 00:15:58.399 register until it's called into question that these two kids 299 00:15:58.440 --> 00:16:01.039 died and Andrea happens to be one of them. So 300 00:16:01.679 --> 00:16:04.639 really interesting because it almost seems like this person so 301 00:16:04.799 --> 00:16:07.759 calm and cool and collected. Could they have done something 302 00:16:07.799 --> 00:16:10.279 like this before? Is it something that he just had 303 00:16:10.399 --> 00:16:12.360 enough time driving hundreds of miles to kind of be 304 00:16:12.399 --> 00:16:15.039 calm and regroup and think of stories he could tell 305 00:16:15.080 --> 00:16:17.519 to use her money? And do you think that was 306 00:16:17.559 --> 00:16:20.039 the main motivator behind the crime itself, just to get 307 00:16:20.080 --> 00:16:20.639 their stuff? 308 00:16:21.559 --> 00:16:24.639 Possibly? I mean, they never specified just how much money 309 00:16:25.080 --> 00:16:27.559 was the travelers checks were worked, because obviously we know 310 00:16:27.639 --> 00:16:30.080 he used one ten dollars one, which isn't a lot 311 00:16:30.080 --> 00:16:33.480 of money. As possible that he wasn't even planning to 312 00:16:33.559 --> 00:16:37.679 kill anyone, but maybe he made sexual advances on Andre 313 00:16:37.840 --> 00:16:41.200 or something and things escalated into violence. Or maybe he 314 00:16:41.240 --> 00:16:43.159 was just a serial killer who just loved to pick 315 00:16:43.200 --> 00:16:45.960 up random people and rob them while traveling through the area. 316 00:16:46.039 --> 00:16:49.399 Because they described him as having an American accent, So 317 00:16:49.480 --> 00:16:52.080 if he was from say, Washington State, and he went 318 00:16:52.159 --> 00:16:54.080 up to Canada to kill people, he might have just 319 00:16:54.159 --> 00:16:56.600 had the mentality, well, if I crossed the border and 320 00:16:56.639 --> 00:16:58.639 go back home, they'll never figure out that I was 321 00:16:58.720 --> 00:17:00.000 responsible for these crimes. 322 00:17:00.840 --> 00:17:02.840 I don't know, like I've got nothing to go on here, 323 00:17:02.879 --> 00:17:06.640 but I almost get a gut feeling that you're right, Ashley, 324 00:17:06.680 --> 00:17:09.599 that this is somebody who's done this before, and that 325 00:17:09.640 --> 00:17:12.319 they are like a chameleon, and that they can fit 326 00:17:12.400 --> 00:17:16.359 in in any scenario and come off seeming decent, so 327 00:17:16.400 --> 00:17:18.519 that people don't take down his license plate and they 328 00:17:18.559 --> 00:17:21.720 allow him to pay with these travelers checks that say 329 00:17:21.799 --> 00:17:25.559 Andrea sharp on them when he is clearly not an Andrea. 330 00:17:26.000 --> 00:17:29.039 And it almost feels like there's a possibility that the 331 00:17:29.119 --> 00:17:32.480 robbery element could just be a secondary motivation, like if 332 00:17:32.519 --> 00:17:36.799 your motivation is to murder, and then well, why wouldn't 333 00:17:36.799 --> 00:17:39.799 you then take advantage of the situation and take whatever 334 00:17:39.839 --> 00:17:41.079 belongings you could. 335 00:17:41.640 --> 00:17:43.519 That's very true. I mean you have this idea that 336 00:17:43.799 --> 00:17:45.759 one he could have been making sexual advances. One it 337 00:17:45.759 --> 00:17:48.079 could be a power control thing. He sees a couple, 338 00:17:48.319 --> 00:17:51.640 just like we know several killers have targeted couples, and 339 00:17:51.920 --> 00:17:53.680 what he does is he, let's say he kills the 340 00:17:53.720 --> 00:17:57.480 young man first and then kills the then kills Andrea. 341 00:17:58.200 --> 00:18:00.640 It makes sense and like you said, maybe just taking 342 00:18:00.680 --> 00:18:03.680 all our things as a way to erase their identity 343 00:18:03.720 --> 00:18:06.559 temporarily so he can get away further. Because if he's 344 00:18:06.599 --> 00:18:08.400 done it before, he knows you don't leave that kind 345 00:18:08.440 --> 00:18:11.680 of information. It makes the police very easily able to 346 00:18:11.680 --> 00:18:14.240 identify who the victims are and maybe gets them a 347 00:18:14.319 --> 00:18:18.519 jump start on the investigation. Oh question, do I have 348 00:18:18.640 --> 00:18:19.839 an American accent? 349 00:18:20.680 --> 00:18:20.960 Yes? 350 00:18:22.559 --> 00:18:24.799 I mean America is such a big country that I 351 00:18:25.000 --> 00:18:28.839 liked more specifics about which kind of region that your 352 00:18:28.880 --> 00:18:31.200 accent is from, because listening to your voice, I can 353 00:18:31.200 --> 00:18:32.920 tell you're American, but I wouldn't be able to guess 354 00:18:32.960 --> 00:18:33.559 where you're from. 355 00:18:34.640 --> 00:18:38.000 I love it, Jules, you said, yes, I hear American accent, 356 00:18:38.279 --> 00:18:40.960 but I also like, this will sound weird. When I 357 00:18:40.960 --> 00:18:43.599 hear Robin talk, I hear a Canadian accent that we 358 00:18:43.640 --> 00:18:45.119 don't necessarily have out here. 359 00:18:45.920 --> 00:18:48.000 So people think I'm from New York, which makes no 360 00:18:48.079 --> 00:18:50.640 sense because I'm from Florida and I've never been up 361 00:18:50.680 --> 00:18:52.799 in New York. But I don't have the typical Southern 362 00:18:52.880 --> 00:18:55.240 draw unless I've I don't know, unless I'm really tired 363 00:18:55.359 --> 00:18:58.000 or something. But I'm a Southern girl and people are 364 00:18:58.039 --> 00:18:59.920 always like, are you from New York? So we are 365 00:19:00.160 --> 00:19:03.160 very vastly different. Depending on what region you're from, people 366 00:19:03.440 --> 00:19:05.200 think they can identify where you're from. 367 00:19:05.279 --> 00:19:08.079 I get refined Southern from you. Yay. 368 00:19:08.079 --> 00:19:09.519 Thank you, God, bless you. 369 00:19:13.200 --> 00:19:16.759 Over the next several years, the RCMP collected around nine 370 00:19:16.839 --> 00:19:19.640 hundred tips, but none of them led the case any 371 00:19:19.640 --> 00:19:23.880 closer to a resolution. However, a major development took place 372 00:19:23.920 --> 00:19:27.519 in July of nineteen eighty nine, when the RCMP detachment 373 00:19:27.599 --> 00:19:31.559 in Gander, Newfoundland was contacted by Tom Martin, a drug 374 00:19:31.559 --> 00:19:35.160 dealer who acted as an informant for them. Martin claimed 375 00:19:35.200 --> 00:19:37.559 that months earlier, he'd been living in the town of 376 00:19:37.599 --> 00:19:40.480 Grand Falls, Windsor and sharing a house with a woman 377 00:19:40.559 --> 00:19:44.400 named Madonna Kelly. According to Martin, Madonna told him that 378 00:19:44.440 --> 00:19:47.519 she knew the identity of the person responsible for the 379 00:19:47.599 --> 00:19:51.799 murders of two German tourists in British Columbia. The RCMP 380 00:19:51.920 --> 00:19:55.519 eventually brought in Madonna for questioning, and she recounted this story, 381 00:19:56.079 --> 00:19:59.039 confirming that she'd been living in a rented trailer in Chetwyn, 382 00:19:59.079 --> 00:20:02.519 British Columbia, back in nineteen eighty three. At the time, 383 00:20:02.599 --> 00:20:06.000 Madonna was working at a sod farm and befriended another 384 00:20:06.079 --> 00:20:10.559 employee named Andy Rose. Like Madonna, Andy also hailed from 385 00:20:10.599 --> 00:20:14.559 Grand Falls, Windsor, Newfoundland, and was one of thirteen siblings 386 00:20:14.599 --> 00:20:17.799 in his family. Over the years. Andy had worked and 387 00:20:17.880 --> 00:20:21.960 lived in a number of different places, including Toronto, Edmonton, 388 00:20:22.079 --> 00:20:26.039 and Thompson, Manitoba, and had one failed marriage under his belt. 389 00:20:26.720 --> 00:20:29.079 Even though Andy was described as being a nice guy 390 00:20:29.119 --> 00:20:32.000 when he was sober, he did have issues with alcohol 391 00:20:32.160 --> 00:20:34.200 and had become something of a drifter who had a 392 00:20:34.240 --> 00:20:38.599 hard time holding down steady employment. After arriving in Chetwynd 393 00:20:38.640 --> 00:20:41.279 in nineteen eighty three, Andy lived with one of his 394 00:20:41.319 --> 00:20:44.079 brothers for a month and moved into a motel once 395 00:20:44.119 --> 00:20:47.440 he got the job at the Sad Farm. According to Madonna, 396 00:20:47.640 --> 00:20:50.519 during the early morning hours of October fourth or fifth 397 00:20:50.559 --> 00:20:53.680 that year, Andy suddenly showed up on the doorstep of 398 00:20:53.720 --> 00:20:57.680 her trailer while he was intoxicated. Madonna described him as 399 00:20:57.720 --> 00:21:01.559 wearing blood stained jeans and having blood stained hands, and 400 00:21:01.599 --> 00:21:04.319 she also said he appeared to have scratches under his eyes. 401 00:21:05.279 --> 00:21:08.119