1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:03,040 Speaker 1: Imagine a stack of paper. And I don't mean, you know, 2 00:00:03,120 --> 00:00:05,519 a neat little folder you'd slide into a briefcase. We 3 00:00:05,599 --> 00:00:09,039 need it. No, I mean a tower, thousands and thousands 4 00:00:09,080 --> 00:00:13,720 of pages, just a physical monument to secrets. Now imagine 5 00:00:13,759 --> 00:00:17,399 that within that huge stack of documents, the specific word 6 00:00:17,920 --> 00:00:21,440 Moscow appears nearly ten thousand times. 7 00:00:21,559 --> 00:00:24,399 Speaker 2: That is, that's a staggering number. It's a frequency that 8 00:00:24,440 --> 00:00:28,960 suggests something far beyond say a vacation preference. It's suggests 9 00:00:28,960 --> 00:00:32,399 an obsession or well, maybe an operation exactly. 10 00:00:32,479 --> 00:00:34,759 Speaker 1: Yeah, And it's not just geography we're dealing with here. 11 00:00:34,920 --> 00:00:37,039 We are looking at a roster of names that reads 12 00:00:37,159 --> 00:00:39,520 less like a party list and more like a map 13 00:00:39,560 --> 00:00:43,119 of the entire global power structure. You've got a less celebrities, 14 00:00:43,479 --> 00:00:46,880 titans of industry, world leaders, and actual royalty. 15 00:00:47,079 --> 00:00:50,520 Speaker 2: It is really, in the truest sense, an anatomy of influence. 16 00:00:50,679 --> 00:00:52,880 And if we're being honest about what we're looking at today, 17 00:00:52,960 --> 00:00:54,280 it's an anatomy of compromise. 18 00:00:54,600 --> 00:00:57,200 Speaker 1: Welcome to thrilling Threads. I'm your host, and today we 19 00:00:57,240 --> 00:00:59,799 are pulling at the loose ends of perhaps the darkest, 20 00:01:00,079 --> 00:01:02,399 most tangled story of the modern era. 21 00:01:02,439 --> 00:01:05,680 Speaker 2: And I'm here to help trace where those threads actually 22 00:01:05,760 --> 00:01:08,799 lead and hopefully untangle some of those knots along the way. 23 00:01:08,920 --> 00:01:11,120 Speaker 1: Today we are definitely taking on a heavy one. We 24 00:01:11,200 --> 00:01:15,439 are pulling about the latest massive release of the Jeffrey 25 00:01:15,480 --> 00:01:16,280 Epstein Files. 26 00:01:16,519 --> 00:01:20,760 Speaker 2: It is heavy, but it is absolutely necessary. For years, 27 00:01:20,799 --> 00:01:24,280 this story has been governed by rumor, by innuendo, by 28 00:01:24,519 --> 00:01:29,480 Internet sleuths connecting you know, red string on corkboards. Now 29 00:01:29,519 --> 00:01:31,200 we actually have the text and. 30 00:01:31,079 --> 00:01:34,239 Speaker 1: That's the mission. Today we're analyzing this massive release, and 31 00:01:34,280 --> 00:01:36,400 we had to give a huge shout out and credit 32 00:01:36,439 --> 00:01:39,719 to the incredible breakdown by Jesse Weber on sidebar from 33 00:01:39,719 --> 00:01:42,480 the Long Crime Network. It's really our primary roadmap and 34 00:01:42,519 --> 00:01:43,560 source for this discussion. 35 00:01:43,599 --> 00:01:45,200 Speaker 2: It's an invaluable resource for sure. 36 00:01:45,239 --> 00:01:48,680 Speaker 1: We're asking a simple but well a terrifying question. Do 37 00:01:48,760 --> 00:01:52,079 these new documents confirm the wildest conspiracy theories out there? 38 00:01:52,599 --> 00:01:54,000 Or do they finally put them to rest. 39 00:01:54,239 --> 00:01:56,359 Speaker 2: It's a crucial distinction, isn't it. We live in an 40 00:01:56,359 --> 00:02:00,200 age of memes and viral misinformation, but today we're not 41 00:02:00,239 --> 00:02:03,439 looking at Reddit threads or some four Chan rumor. We're 42 00:02:03,439 --> 00:02:07,560 looking at the Epstein Files Transparency Act material. This is 43 00:02:07,599 --> 00:02:10,159 what the Department of Justice was legally forced to hand over. 44 00:02:10,439 --> 00:02:12,960 Speaker 1: So for you listening who might be thinking, oh, I've 45 00:02:13,000 --> 00:02:15,159 heard it all before, it's just a list of bad guys. 46 00:02:16,000 --> 00:02:18,680 I promise you you haven't heard it like this. We 47 00:02:18,719 --> 00:02:21,120 are not just reading names, not at all. We're reading 48 00:02:21,159 --> 00:02:24,400 the raw text. We're reading email send it two in 49 00:02:24,439 --> 00:02:28,639 the morning. We are looking at flight logs, and maybe 50 00:02:28,639 --> 00:02:33,199 most controversially, we are looking at the raw unverified tips 51 00:02:33,719 --> 00:02:34,639 sent to the FBI. 52 00:02:34,960 --> 00:02:37,400 Speaker 2: And that is where we have to be so disciplined. 53 00:02:37,759 --> 00:02:41,120 We're going to separate what is a verified email, something 54 00:02:41,120 --> 00:02:43,560 written by the hand of a billionaire, from what is 55 00:02:43,599 --> 00:02:47,280 an unverified tip someone called in right, because that difference 56 00:02:47,400 --> 00:02:49,639 it changes the entire reality of the case. 57 00:02:49,759 --> 00:02:52,159 Speaker 1: It really really does. So let's get into it. Let's 58 00:02:52,159 --> 00:02:54,479 start with the first thread, the one everyone was waiting for, 59 00:02:55,159 --> 00:02:55,680 the names. 60 00:02:56,039 --> 00:02:58,800 Speaker 2: The expectation leading up to this release was that this 61 00:02:58,840 --> 00:03:00,280 would be the Rosetta stone. 62 00:03:00,120 --> 00:03:02,319 Speaker 1: Yeah, that it would finally name names in the handcuffs 63 00:03:02,319 --> 00:03:05,319 would come out immediately, And in many ways it did 64 00:03:05,479 --> 00:03:08,240 nin names, but maybe not in the way people expected. 65 00:03:08,280 --> 00:03:10,639 It wasn't a list of convictions. It was a list 66 00:03:10,680 --> 00:03:13,800 of I don't know the banality of complicity. 67 00:03:13,879 --> 00:03:16,639 Speaker 2: That's the perfect phrase for it, the banality of complicity. 68 00:03:16,680 --> 00:03:19,360 It showed us how these people actually spoke to each other. 69 00:03:19,599 --> 00:03:21,840 Speaker 1: And the first name that really just stopped me in 70 00:03:21,919 --> 00:03:25,199 my tracks because it was so unexpected was Peter Atia. 71 00:03:25,879 --> 00:03:29,120 Speaker 2: Yes, this is a name that resonates very differently than 72 00:03:29,400 --> 00:03:33,039 say a politician or a movie star. Right, if you 73 00:03:33,080 --> 00:03:36,960 follow the health and wellness space, Peter Atia is. He's 74 00:03:36,960 --> 00:03:37,360 a god. 75 00:03:37,599 --> 00:03:40,280 Speaker 1: He's the live Longer guy, the optimization guru. He was 76 00:03:40,319 --> 00:03:43,159 a contributor for CBS News. He writes best selling books 77 00:03:43,159 --> 00:03:44,280 on how to Live to be one hundred. 78 00:03:44,400 --> 00:03:46,159 Speaker 2: He's the guy telling you to sleep eight hours and 79 00:03:46,199 --> 00:03:47,599 watch your glue coat exactly. 80 00:03:48,000 --> 00:03:50,719 Speaker 1: And suddenly we find out he has mentioned almost two 81 00:03:50,759 --> 00:03:52,280 thousand times in these files. 82 00:03:52,360 --> 00:03:55,800 Speaker 2: Two thousand times. That is not a casual acquaintance. That 83 00:03:55,840 --> 00:03:58,680 indicates a frequency of contact that goes far beyond oh 84 00:03:58,719 --> 00:03:59,319 I met him at a. 85 00:03:59,280 --> 00:04:01,400 Speaker 1: Cocktail party, one oh way beyond. 86 00:04:01,599 --> 00:04:04,719 Speaker 2: We're looking at a constant stream of emails, specifically from 87 00:04:04,719 --> 00:04:06,840 twenty fifteen to twenty eighteen. 88 00:04:06,800 --> 00:04:10,680 Speaker 1: And the content of these emails. Look, we promise we 89 00:04:10,759 --> 00:04:12,599 get into the text. This isn't pleasant, but we have 90 00:04:12,639 --> 00:04:14,159 to look at it to understand the dynamic. 91 00:04:14,199 --> 00:04:14,840 Speaker 2: Here we do. 92 00:04:15,039 --> 00:04:18,800 Speaker 1: There is an email from February twenty sixteen where Attie 93 00:04:18,879 --> 00:04:21,680 is writing to Epstein and he makes a comment about 94 00:04:21,680 --> 00:04:25,360 a woman, specifically, he refers to her private parts as 95 00:04:25,399 --> 00:04:26,800 being low carb. 96 00:04:27,120 --> 00:04:31,759 Speaker 2: Wow, it's just a crude, objectifying attempt at humor. But 97 00:04:31,959 --> 00:04:34,600 notice the language he's using. Ohy, he is using his 98 00:04:34,680 --> 00:04:39,199 own brand, this health talk diet optimization to demean a 99 00:04:39,279 --> 00:04:42,040 human being. It's a way of signaling I am part 100 00:04:42,040 --> 00:04:44,959 of the club. I get it. I can speak your language. 101 00:04:45,000 --> 00:04:48,560 Speaker 1: And he adds still the waiting results on gluten content. 102 00:04:48,199 --> 00:04:52,040 Speaker 2: Though hearing that read out loud, it's just gross. It 103 00:04:52,040 --> 00:04:54,639 makes my skin crawl, it does. But it's the banality 104 00:04:54,680 --> 00:04:56,399 of it that gets me. They're talking about human beings 105 00:04:56,439 --> 00:04:58,600 like they're items on a brunch menu, like they're ordering 106 00:04:58,600 --> 00:04:59,279 a sandwich. 107 00:04:59,720 --> 00:05:02,600 Speaker 1: That is the chilling part. It reveals a mindset where 108 00:05:02,600 --> 00:05:05,759 people are commodities. It strips the humanity away completely. But 109 00:05:05,800 --> 00:05:07,959 there's another email from twenty to fifteen that I think 110 00:05:08,000 --> 00:05:10,279 is even more revealing about the psychology of the people 111 00:05:10,319 --> 00:05:11,160 in Epstein's orbit. 112 00:05:11,199 --> 00:05:14,000 Speaker 2: Puts out on Atia writes to Epstein and he says, quote, 113 00:05:14,519 --> 00:05:16,959 the biggest problem with becoming friends with you is that 114 00:05:17,000 --> 00:05:20,000 the life you lead is so outrageous, and yet I 115 00:05:20,000 --> 00:05:20,959 can't tell a soul. 116 00:05:21,279 --> 00:05:25,639 Speaker 1: I can't tell a soul. Wow. That is the sound 117 00:05:25,680 --> 00:05:28,720 of someone realizing they have stepped into a world that 118 00:05:28,839 --> 00:05:30,399 cannot exist in the light of day. 119 00:05:30,480 --> 00:05:34,920 Speaker 2: Precisely, it acknowledges the secrecy. It acknowledges that what's happening 120 00:05:34,959 --> 00:05:38,399 is outrageous. It creates a bond of silence right there. 121 00:05:38,600 --> 00:05:40,959 Speaker 1: It's almost a confession of complicity in the very act 122 00:05:41,000 --> 00:05:41,720 of writing it. 123 00:05:41,720 --> 00:05:44,240 Speaker 2: It is it's saying, I know this is wrong, or 124 00:05:44,240 --> 00:05:47,000 at least impossible to explain to normal people, but I 125 00:05:47,040 --> 00:05:47,920 am here anyway. 126 00:05:48,240 --> 00:05:50,759 Speaker 1: Now. To be fair to the current context, Atia has 127 00:05:50,759 --> 00:05:51,639 addressed this head on. 128 00:05:51,879 --> 00:05:52,439 Speaker 2: He has. 129 00:05:52,519 --> 00:05:55,480 Speaker 1: He went on x formerly Twitter and issued a pretty 130 00:05:55,519 --> 00:05:58,759 lengthy apology. He called the exchange juvenile. He said he 131 00:05:58,800 --> 00:06:02,000 was ashamed, but he was very, very firm on one thing. 132 00:06:02,360 --> 00:06:05,120 He denies any criminal activities as he never went to 133 00:06:05,160 --> 00:06:07,399 the island, never participated. 134 00:06:06,800 --> 00:06:08,800 Speaker 2: In the abuse, and that is a pattern we are 135 00:06:08,800 --> 00:06:12,000 going to see repeatedly today. I was there, but I 136 00:06:12,120 --> 00:06:15,040 wasn't there defense or I was friends with the money 137 00:06:15,040 --> 00:06:18,160 and not the man. However, the professional fallout has been real. 138 00:06:18,519 --> 00:06:21,120 He stepped down from his role at a snack bar company, 139 00:06:21,439 --> 00:06:22,720 David Protein. 140 00:06:22,680 --> 00:06:25,199 Speaker 1: Right, and there are reports that a sixty minute segment 141 00:06:25,240 --> 00:06:27,879 featuring him was pulled from the schedule. 142 00:06:27,959 --> 00:06:28,839 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a big deal. 143 00:06:28,959 --> 00:06:30,839 Speaker 1: It just shows that, even if you aren't charged with 144 00:06:30,920 --> 00:06:34,399 a crime, the associational alan is toxic radioactive wys. 145 00:06:34,160 --> 00:06:37,399 Speaker 2: At this point, as it should be, complicity has a cost. 146 00:06:38,040 --> 00:06:40,720 When you normalize a predator by engaging in that kind 147 00:06:40,759 --> 00:06:43,079 of locker room talk with him, you are part of 148 00:06:43,079 --> 00:06:45,000 the ecosystem that allows him to thrive. 149 00:06:45,240 --> 00:06:47,839 Speaker 1: That's a great point. Let's move to the sports world. 150 00:06:47,879 --> 00:06:51,720 This one really highlights the transactional nature of these relationships. 151 00:06:51,959 --> 00:06:54,360 Steve Tish, the co owner of the New York Giants. 152 00:06:54,720 --> 00:06:56,920 Speaker 2: This series of emails is a case study in how 153 00:06:56,959 --> 00:07:01,839 Epstein operated as a well like a concierge of companionship, 154 00:07:01,839 --> 00:07:02,879 for lack of a better tear. 155 00:07:02,800 --> 00:07:05,800 Speaker 1: A dark concierge. Yeah. There's this exchange where Tish is 156 00:07:05,839 --> 00:07:09,920 asking about a specific woman. He bluntly asks Epstein if 157 00:07:10,000 --> 00:07:11,399 she is a pro or civilian. 158 00:07:11,720 --> 00:07:14,879 Speaker 2: Let's just pause on that language, pro or civilian. It 159 00:07:14,920 --> 00:07:18,839 implies that in their world, women fall into two binary categories, 160 00:07:19,079 --> 00:07:22,319 those you pay and those you what, manipulating? 161 00:07:22,399 --> 00:07:24,800 Speaker 1: Yeah right, or those who aren't in the life. 162 00:07:24,879 --> 00:07:26,920 Speaker 2: It just strips away all humanity and replaces it with 163 00:07:26,920 --> 00:07:30,800 a status check. It's military terminology applied to sexual access. 164 00:07:30,920 --> 00:07:32,279 It's incredibly bleak. 165 00:07:32,000 --> 00:07:37,360 Speaker 1: And Epstein's reply is just wow. He writes back, I 166 00:07:37,399 --> 00:07:40,399 don't like records of these conversations. 167 00:07:39,680 --> 00:07:42,800 Speaker 2: Which is irony of the absolute highest. 168 00:07:42,560 --> 00:07:45,839 Speaker 1: Order, the ultimate irony. We are reading that very sentence 169 00:07:45,879 --> 00:07:48,279 and a release federal record. It's like a joke written 170 00:07:48,279 --> 00:07:50,319 by a screenwriter, but it's real life. 171 00:07:50,480 --> 00:07:53,759 Speaker 2: It shows consciousness of guilt, or at the very least, 172 00:07:53,800 --> 00:07:56,600 consciousness of risk. You don't mind a record if you're 173 00:07:56,639 --> 00:07:59,000 talking about setting up a blind date for a friend. Yeah, 174 00:07:59,040 --> 00:08:01,759 you mind a record when or navigating the gray areas 175 00:08:01,800 --> 00:08:05,000 of legality and reality. He knew exactly what he was doing. 176 00:08:05,120 --> 00:08:08,199 Speaker 1: There are other descriptions in their emails that just they 177 00:08:08,279 --> 00:08:12,199 just make your skin crawl. Epstein describing a Ukrainian girl 178 00:08:12,279 --> 00:08:13,639 as a character and. 179 00:08:13,600 --> 00:08:16,439 Speaker 2: A ten and a Russian woman who rarely tells the 180 00:08:16,439 --> 00:08:17,680 full truth but fun. 181 00:08:17,800 --> 00:08:21,319 Speaker 1: It's just disgusting, And the advice he gives Tish is 182 00:08:21,360 --> 00:08:24,279 so tactical. He tells him to go slow because the 183 00:08:24,279 --> 00:08:26,560 woman was freaked by the age difference. 184 00:08:26,600 --> 00:08:27,959 Speaker 2: Preached by the age difference. 185 00:08:28,360 --> 00:08:32,399 Speaker 1: Yeah, that is a red flag waving in hurricane force wins. 186 00:08:33,039 --> 00:08:35,679 Speaker 2: It suggests coercion. It suggests that the woman is not 187 00:08:35,840 --> 00:08:38,919 entirely comfortable, and Epstein is coaching Tish on how to 188 00:08:39,000 --> 00:08:41,279 manage that discomfort to get what he wants exactly. 189 00:08:41,320 --> 00:08:43,080 Speaker 1: He's acting like a handler, he is. 190 00:08:43,519 --> 00:08:46,279 Speaker 2: He is teaching a powerful man how to overcome the 191 00:08:46,399 --> 00:08:49,960 natural hesitation of a younger woman. It's predatory. 192 00:08:50,080 --> 00:08:52,879 Speaker 1: Now Tish has defended himself. Yeah, he gave a statement 193 00:08:52,919 --> 00:08:56,720 to CBS saying they were only discussing adult women, yes, 194 00:08:56,799 --> 00:09:00,360 and that they talked about movies and philanthropy. He says 195 00:09:00,399 --> 00:09:04,679 he regrets the association, but reading pro or civilian, I mean, 196 00:09:04,720 --> 00:09:06,240 it's hard to square that with philanthropy. 197 00:09:06,360 --> 00:09:09,720 Speaker 2: It creates a massive cognitive dissonance. You have the public 198 00:09:09,960 --> 00:09:13,720 image of the benevolent team owner, the pillar of the community, 199 00:09:14,000 --> 00:09:16,799 and then the private reality of a man shopping for 200 00:09:16,919 --> 00:09:18,320 human beings via email. 201 00:09:18,759 --> 00:09:20,879 Speaker 1: Speaking of public images, we have to talk about the 202 00:09:20,879 --> 00:09:24,639 Hollywood threads, the visual evidence. There's a photo of Brett Ratner, 203 00:09:24,720 --> 00:09:27,720 the director. He's sitting on a couch hugging a woman. 204 00:09:27,960 --> 00:09:30,879 Her face is redacted, of course, and sitting right next 205 00:09:30,919 --> 00:09:32,759 to them is Jeffrey Epstein. 206 00:09:33,120 --> 00:09:36,840 Speaker 2: Ratner's defense on this is well, it's interesting. He claims 207 00:09:36,919 --> 00:09:39,759 the woman was his fiance from twenty years ago and 208 00:09:39,799 --> 00:09:43,159 could get this. He claims he didn't even know Epstein. 209 00:09:44,000 --> 00:09:46,639 Speaker 1: How how do you sit on a couch next to 210 00:09:46,679 --> 00:09:49,279 someone in what looks like a private setting, shoulder to 211 00:09:49,320 --> 00:09:50,919 shoulder and not know them. 212 00:09:51,039 --> 00:09:54,039 Speaker 2: It's a very difficult claim to maintain when the photographic 213 00:09:54,039 --> 00:09:57,399 evidence implies some kind of intimacy or the very least 214 00:09:57,440 --> 00:09:58,759 a shared social space. 215 00:09:58,919 --> 00:09:59,600 Speaker 1: It's absurd. 216 00:10:00,120 --> 00:10:02,399 Speaker 2: Speaks to how people are trying to actively rewrite their 217 00:10:02,399 --> 00:10:05,799 own histories to scrub Epstein out of them. It's historical 218 00:10:05,840 --> 00:10:09,000 revisionism in real time. I wasn't there, and if I was, 219 00:10:09,039 --> 00:10:10,440 I didn't know him, and if I knew him, I 220 00:10:10,440 --> 00:10:11,120 didn't like him. 221 00:10:11,279 --> 00:10:14,679 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's the playbook. Then there's Brian Vickers, the NASCAR driver. 222 00:10:15,000 --> 00:10:18,240 This one is just bizarre. He's sending Epstein a sexually 223 00:10:18,320 --> 00:10:20,879 explicit male fairy tale. What even is that? 224 00:10:21,120 --> 00:10:24,159 Speaker 2: In a Valentine's Day video, Happy Valentine's buddy. It shows 225 00:10:24,200 --> 00:10:27,080 a level of camaraderie that goes way beyond business. 226 00:10:27,120 --> 00:10:28,519 Speaker 1: It's weirdly intimate, it is. 227 00:10:28,919 --> 00:10:32,159 Speaker 2: But the vicar's story gets darker and more complicated when 228 00:10:32,159 --> 00:10:34,679 you look at his ex wife. She was accused of 229 00:10:34,759 --> 00:10:37,000 coordinating meetups for Epstein. 230 00:10:36,879 --> 00:10:39,080 Speaker 1: But she claims she was a victim herself, right. 231 00:10:39,039 --> 00:10:42,159 Speaker 2: Correct, And that is the complexity of the Epstein web. 232 00:10:42,559 --> 00:10:46,279 The line between accomplice and victim is often incredibly blurred. 233 00:10:46,639 --> 00:10:49,799 Deyslayne Maxwell is the prime example, obviously, but there are 234 00:10:49,799 --> 00:10:54,000 others who were recruited, abused, and then turned into recruiters themselves. 235 00:10:54,320 --> 00:10:55,519 Speaker 1: It's a cycle of abuse. 236 00:10:55,600 --> 00:10:58,600 Speaker 2: It's a cycle of abuse that Epstein weaponized to protect himself. 237 00:10:58,879 --> 00:11:01,120 If everyone is guilty, no one talks. 238 00:11:01,639 --> 00:11:04,000 Speaker 1: Before we leave this whole name segment, I have to 239 00:11:04,000 --> 00:11:09,279 mention Woody Allen because Epstein. I don't know if he 240 00:11:09,320 --> 00:11:10,919 was trying to be funny or if he was just 241 00:11:10,960 --> 00:11:13,840 being a complete monster. But there's an email where he 242 00:11:13,960 --> 00:11:16,080 jokes about a pedophile convention. 243 00:11:16,399 --> 00:11:20,120 Speaker 2: Yes, someone emailed him using that phrase pedophile convention, and 244 00:11:20,159 --> 00:11:22,720 Epstein replied, I think pedophile is. 245 00:11:22,639 --> 00:11:25,320 Speaker 1: The plural the gall It's almost like he was flaunting 246 00:11:25,320 --> 00:11:27,360 it like he was so untouchable he could make grammatical 247 00:11:27,440 --> 00:11:29,159 jokes about the very thing he was accused of. 248 00:11:29,279 --> 00:11:34,159 Speaker 2: It displays a profound, profound arrogance, a belief that the 249 00:11:34,240 --> 00:11:37,759 rules of society and the moral judgment of society simply 250 00:11:37,799 --> 00:11:38,919 did not apply to him. 251 00:11:39,159 --> 00:11:40,440 Speaker 1: He was on a different plane. 252 00:11:40,519 --> 00:11:43,320 Speaker 2: He was operating on a different plane entirely. It's the 253 00:11:43,399 --> 00:11:45,279 humor of a sociopath. 254 00:11:44,879 --> 00:11:47,519 Speaker 1: Which brings us perfectly to the next group, the people 255 00:11:47,559 --> 00:11:50,240 who really truly think the rules don't apply to them, 256 00:11:50,639 --> 00:11:52,600 the titans of tech in industry. 257 00:11:52,840 --> 00:11:56,919 Speaker 2: Yes, if the first segment was about the banality of complicity, 258 00:11:56,960 --> 00:11:59,480 this segment is about the arrogance of intellect. How the 259 00:11:59,519 --> 00:12:03,480 smartest in the room navigated or failed to navigate Epstein's orbit. 260 00:12:04,159 --> 00:12:05,960 Speaker 1: And we have to start with Bill Gates. This has been, 261 00:12:06,039 --> 00:12:09,399 i mean, a slow burned pr disaster for him for years. 262 00:12:09,720 --> 00:12:14,039 But these files added some very specific, very weird details. 263 00:12:14,120 --> 00:12:15,679 Speaker 2: The Russian girls allegation. 264 00:12:16,039 --> 00:12:20,360 Speaker 1: Right, Epstein claiming that Gates needed STD medication for an 265 00:12:20,360 --> 00:12:21,960 issue involving Russian girls. 266 00:12:22,440 --> 00:12:24,320 Speaker 2: Now we have to treat this with caution. This is 267 00:12:24,320 --> 00:12:26,399 Epstein talking about Gates to a third party. 268 00:12:26,639 --> 00:12:27,679 Speaker 1: Right, It's secondhand. 269 00:12:27,799 --> 00:12:30,000 Speaker 2: It's gossip from within the files. We don't have a 270 00:12:30,000 --> 00:12:33,080 medical record, but it aligns with a broader pattern of 271 00:12:33,080 --> 00:12:36,600 Epstein trying to hold leverage over powerful men. He wanted 272 00:12:36,600 --> 00:12:38,279 people to think he knew their secrets. 273 00:12:38,519 --> 00:12:43,399 Speaker 1: And speaking of leverage, the draft email, this is one 274 00:12:43,440 --> 00:12:46,039 of the most baffling documents in the whole release. Can 275 00:12:46,080 --> 00:12:47,919 you just walk us through this, because when I read 276 00:12:47,960 --> 00:12:49,759 about this in the Long Crime Breakdown, I had to 277 00:12:49,759 --> 00:12:50,960 read it like three times. 278 00:12:51,200 --> 00:12:55,080 Speaker 2: It is truly bizarre. Epstein wrote a draft email on 279 00:12:55,159 --> 00:12:58,240 behalf of a Gates advisor. He essentially wrote a confession 280 00:12:58,320 --> 00:13:00,799 letter for this advisor to send to the Gates Foundation. 281 00:13:01,000 --> 00:13:03,320 Speaker 1: He wrote a confession for someone else. And what did 282 00:13:03,360 --> 00:13:04,320 this confession say? 283 00:13:04,519 --> 00:13:07,600 Speaker 2: It was incredibly damaging. In the draft Epstein has this 284 00:13:07,720 --> 00:13:12,639 advisor admitting to moral failure, admitting to helping Gates get 285 00:13:12,720 --> 00:13:16,960 drugs and this is the crucial part facilitating trysts with 286 00:13:17,120 --> 00:13:17,720 married women. 287 00:13:17,840 --> 00:13:20,360 Speaker 1: Why on earth would Epstein write that? Why would he 288 00:13:20,440 --> 00:13:22,840 draft a letter destroying someone else's reputation? 289 00:13:23,120 --> 00:13:26,759 Speaker 2: That is the million dollar question. Expert analysis suggests it 290 00:13:26,799 --> 00:13:29,559 was a form of blackmail disguised as assistants. What do 291 00:13:29,639 --> 00:13:31,600 you mean by writing it down and sending it as 292 00:13:31,639 --> 00:13:34,559 a draft. Epstein is essentially saying, I know all of this, 293 00:13:34,639 --> 00:13:37,440 I have this information. Look how easily I can destroy you. 294 00:13:37,759 --> 00:13:39,519 Look how detailed my file on you is. 295 00:13:39,559 --> 00:13:42,000 Speaker 1: It's a power move. Yeah, it's a threat. I hold 296 00:13:42,000 --> 00:13:43,360 your reputation in my hands. 297 00:13:43,679 --> 00:13:47,399 Speaker 2: Exactly. It forces the recipient to realize that Epstein isn't 298 00:13:47,440 --> 00:13:49,840 just a friend. He's a vault that could burst open 299 00:13:49,840 --> 00:13:52,679 at any moment. And we've seen the fallout in Gates' 300 00:13:52,720 --> 00:13:53,679 personal life. 301 00:13:53,720 --> 00:13:56,960 Speaker 1: We have Melinda Gates recently spoke about this on NPR's 302 00:13:56,960 --> 00:14:00,679 wild Card podcast. She did, and her reaction was just heartbreaking. 303 00:14:01,240 --> 00:14:03,960 She didn't talk about the legalities or the money. She 304 00:14:04,080 --> 00:14:07,120 focused entirely on the victim. She said, my god, how 305 00:14:07,120 --> 00:14:08,320 did that happen to those girls? 306 00:14:08,759 --> 00:14:11,720 Speaker 2: And she explicitly said that Bill needs to answer for himself. 307 00:14:12,000 --> 00:14:14,600 She has moved on, she's divorced him, but she left 308 00:14:14,639 --> 00:14:17,279 that burden firmly at his feet. She made it crystal 309 00:14:17,320 --> 00:14:20,120 clear that his association with Epstein was a breaking point 310 00:14:20,120 --> 00:14:20,480 for her. 311 00:14:20,600 --> 00:14:23,840 Speaker 1: And of course, Gates's spokesperson calls all these claims absurd 312 00:14:23,960 --> 00:14:27,279 and false, but the smoke around this is just it's 313 00:14:27,279 --> 00:14:28,480 so thick, it's choking. 314 00:14:28,679 --> 00:14:30,840 Speaker 2: And then there's Elon Musk, the man. 315 00:14:30,759 --> 00:14:34,039 Speaker 1: Who is never far from a headline. The files show 316 00:14:34,080 --> 00:14:37,240 emails from twenty twelve and twenty thirteen regarding a visit 317 00:14:37,279 --> 00:14:37,879 to the island. 318 00:14:38,080 --> 00:14:42,120 Speaker 2: There are references to kumfu practice and emails coordinating helicopter 319 00:14:42,240 --> 00:14:45,279 rides sent by Jay Vacation, which was one of Epstein's aliases. 320 00:14:45,559 --> 00:14:49,200 Speaker 1: Jay Vacation sounds like a bad movie villain, But there's 321 00:14:49,240 --> 00:14:54,799 a specific request from Musk that gets mentioned. He allegedly 322 00:14:54,840 --> 00:14:57,399 asked Epstein what day the Wildest Party would be. 323 00:14:57,960 --> 00:15:03,159 Speaker 2: Now Musk's defenses, it's very characteristic of him. He's aggressive. 324 00:15:03,759 --> 00:15:06,559 He claims he never went. He calls Epstein a creep. 325 00:15:06,879 --> 00:15:09,440 He says he pushed for the file release to clear 326 00:15:09,480 --> 00:15:10,440 his own name, and. 327 00:15:10,480 --> 00:15:12,480 Speaker 1: To be fair, the flight logs don't show him on 328 00:15:12,519 --> 00:15:14,320 the plane in the same way they show other people. 329 00:15:14,440 --> 00:15:18,240 Speaker 2: That's true, But asking about the Wildest Party it suggests 330 00:15:18,240 --> 00:15:21,480 a certain curiosity. At the very very least, it suggests 331 00:15:21,519 --> 00:15:24,360 he knew what Epstein's brand was. You don't ask a 332 00:15:24,399 --> 00:15:27,279 financial advisor about the Wildest Party unless you know that 333 00:15:27,320 --> 00:15:29,600 party implies something specific in their world. 334 00:15:29,679 --> 00:15:32,919 Speaker 1: Right, It implies he knew the reputation and was inquiring 335 00:15:32,960 --> 00:15:34,919 about the menu so to speed you exactly. So we 336 00:15:35,000 --> 00:15:37,879 got the tech bros, the Hollywood directors, the sports owners. 337 00:15:38,519 --> 00:15:41,279 But now we have to step into the most volatile 338 00:15:41,360 --> 00:15:44,240 arena of all politics, polatives. 339 00:15:44,360 --> 00:15:46,960 Speaker 2: This is where we have to be extremely disciplined with 340 00:15:47,000 --> 00:15:50,879 our source material, because the political firestorm is fueled by 341 00:15:50,879 --> 00:15:55,600 a mix of confirmed facts and unverified raw data. 342 00:15:55,799 --> 00:15:59,360 Speaker 1: Let's talk about Donald Trump. His name appears, it's in 343 00:15:59,399 --> 00:16:02,039 the files, but we need to be very clear about 344 00:16:02,039 --> 00:16:03,399 what documents he appears in. 345 00:16:03,600 --> 00:16:07,200 Speaker 2: Crucially, a significant portion of the Trump mentions come from 346 00:16:07,240 --> 00:16:08,720 the FBI tips logs. 347 00:16:08,879 --> 00:16:11,360 Speaker 1: Okay, let's unpack this for the listener. What exactly is 348 00:16:11,399 --> 00:16:14,279 an FBI tip log in this context. 349 00:16:13,879 --> 00:16:17,320 Speaker 2: It's essentially the raw intake valve of the FBI. These 350 00:16:17,320 --> 00:16:20,679 are calls or messages sent to the National Threat Operations Center. 351 00:16:20,919 --> 00:16:23,279 Anyone can send one. You could send one right now, 352 00:16:23,440 --> 00:16:26,840 I could send one. They are completely unverified. They are leads, 353 00:16:27,200 --> 00:16:28,120 not evidence. 354 00:16:28,399 --> 00:16:30,720 Speaker 1: And the dog actually issued a warning about this, right. 355 00:16:30,759 --> 00:16:33,039 Speaker 2: They did, and it's so important. They noted that some 356 00:16:33,159 --> 00:16:36,519 tips might be fake or politically motivated, especially since many 357 00:16:36,519 --> 00:16:38,559 were submitted right before the twenty twenty. 358 00:16:38,320 --> 00:16:39,639 Speaker 1: Election, which makes sense. 359 00:16:39,679 --> 00:16:42,720 Speaker 2: They explicitly stated that if these tips had real credibility, 360 00:16:42,759 --> 00:16:45,559 they likely would have been weaponized already during the campaigns. 361 00:16:45,720 --> 00:16:48,559 Speaker 1: That's a key point. If there was a smoking gun 362 00:16:48,600 --> 00:16:51,559 in a tip from twenty twenty, we probably would have 363 00:16:51,600 --> 00:16:54,639 seen it fired by now. But the allegations in these tips, 364 00:16:55,720 --> 00:16:57,600 they are extremely graphic. 365 00:16:57,759 --> 00:17:00,879 Speaker 2: They are very, very disturbing. There's a tip alleging an 366 00:17:00,919 --> 00:17:03,159 incident with a thirteen or fourteen year old girl in 367 00:17:03,200 --> 00:17:07,000 New Jersey about thirty five years ago. Yeah, allegations of biting, 368 00:17:07,160 --> 00:17:10,519 being hit, being forced to perform acts. It's horrible stuff. 369 00:17:10,559 --> 00:17:12,640 Speaker 1: And there was another tip about a sex trafficking ring 370 00:17:12,759 --> 00:17:15,559 at a Trump golf course in the mid nineties. Yeah, 371 00:17:15,599 --> 00:17:17,799 with Ghisling Maxwell acting as the madam. 372 00:17:18,119 --> 00:17:21,039 Speaker 2: Again, we have to stress these are raw tips. They 373 00:17:21,119 --> 00:17:23,799 lack herroboration in the files that have been released. We 374 00:17:23,839 --> 00:17:26,480 don't have flight logs putting him there at those specific 375 00:17:26,559 --> 00:17:29,599 times in these documents, but they are part of the 376 00:17:29,640 --> 00:17:31,440 record now. They are part of the thread that we 377 00:17:31,480 --> 00:17:31,960 are pulling. 378 00:17:32,240 --> 00:17:34,240 Speaker 1: It's a thread that leads into a dark room. But 379 00:17:34,279 --> 00:17:36,200 we don't have a flashlight yet. We just know the 380 00:17:36,200 --> 00:17:38,960 allegations are there written down in an FBI log. 381 00:17:39,200 --> 00:17:42,680 Speaker 2: And it's not just American politics. The international scope is stunning. 382 00:17:42,799 --> 00:17:46,839 Speaker 1: I know the Crown Princess of Norway Metmerit. 383 00:17:47,039 --> 00:17:49,839 Speaker 2: She had to issue an apology. She admitted she didn't 384 00:17:49,880 --> 00:17:52,440 do her due diligence before meeting with them, which. 385 00:17:52,319 --> 00:17:54,799 Speaker 1: Just shows how Epstein collected royalty like trophies. 386 00:17:54,880 --> 00:17:59,039 Speaker 2: Absolutely he wanted legitimacy, and royalty is the ultimate legitimacy. 387 00:17:59,319 --> 00:18:01,839 If you're standing to a princess, people assume you must 388 00:18:01,880 --> 00:18:02,559 be a good guy. 389 00:18:02,880 --> 00:18:07,559 Speaker 1: And Mirislavolagekac from Slovakia resigned, Sultan Bensulaim from the UAE 390 00:18:07,920 --> 00:18:11,119 making comments about Moldavian versus Ukrainian women. 391 00:18:11,359 --> 00:18:14,359 Speaker 2: It just reinforces that Epstein was running a global operation. 392 00:18:14,680 --> 00:18:17,279 He wasn't just a New York financier with a plane. 393 00:18:17,359 --> 00:18:20,319 He was a node in a worldwide network of powerful 394 00:18:20,319 --> 00:18:23,880 people who felt comfortable discussing human beings as commodities. 395 00:18:24,400 --> 00:18:26,599 Speaker 1: He was the connector which brings us to the most 396 00:18:26,680 --> 00:18:29,799 thrilling and frankly terrifying threat of all, the one that 397 00:18:29,839 --> 00:18:32,960 reads like a cold Wars buy novel, the Russian Connection. 398 00:18:33,359 --> 00:18:36,160 Speaker 2: This is the theory that transforms Epstein from a pervert 399 00:18:36,359 --> 00:18:38,079 into a potential intelligence asset. 400 00:18:38,279 --> 00:18:42,319 Speaker 1: The data is just, it's overwhelming. Vladimir Putin is named 401 00:18:42,480 --> 00:18:46,079 nearly one thousand times in these documents. The word Moscow 402 00:18:46,319 --> 00:18:48,079 appears nearly ten thousand times. 403 00:18:48,079 --> 00:18:51,079 Speaker 2: Just the volume alone demands an explanation. You don't mention 404 00:18:51,200 --> 00:18:54,039 Moscow ten thousand times if you're just buying vodka. No, 405 00:18:54,599 --> 00:18:59,079 that is a substantial, sustained focus. It's just business or 406 00:18:59,119 --> 00:19:00,559 strategy or influence. 407 00:19:00,759 --> 00:19:04,920 Speaker 1: Epstein seemed absolutely obsessed with meeting Putin. There are emails 408 00:19:05,000 --> 00:19:09,480 with someone named Igor about booking tickets to Russia. 409 00:19:09,000 --> 00:19:12,839 Speaker 2: And correspondence with Ehudubarik, the former Israeli Prime minister, about 410 00:19:12,839 --> 00:19:16,599 meeting Putin at an economic conference. Epstein wanted to, and 411 00:19:16,640 --> 00:19:20,079 this is a quote, reinvent the Russian financial system. 412 00:19:20,240 --> 00:19:23,880 Speaker 1: Reinvent the Russian financial system. That's not a hobby, that's 413 00:19:23,920 --> 00:19:25,200 a geopolitical goal. 414 00:19:25,319 --> 00:19:26,599 Speaker 2: And this is where we have to look at the 415 00:19:26,680 --> 00:19:31,319 kompromat angle. Kompromat is the Russian term for compromising material 416 00:19:31,480 --> 00:19:35,519 used for blackmail. It is a staple of Russian intelligence tradecraft. 417 00:19:35,640 --> 00:19:36,240 Speaker 1: It's what they do. 418 00:19:36,359 --> 00:19:37,319 Speaker 2: It's their bread and butter. 419 00:19:37,559 --> 00:19:40,799 Speaker 1: And the Polish Prime Minister Donald Tusk. He didn't mince 420 00:19:41,079 --> 00:19:42,119 words about this at all. 421 00:19:42,279 --> 00:19:43,920 Speaker 2: No, he was very direct. He said, there is a 422 00:19:43,960 --> 00:19:47,759 suspicion that the entire scandal was co organized by Russian 423 00:19:47,759 --> 00:19:48,920 intelligence services. 424 00:19:48,920 --> 00:19:53,200 Speaker 1: Co organized. That word is chilling. It implies Epstein wasn't 425 00:19:53,240 --> 00:19:55,960 just a useful idiot. It implies he was an active 426 00:19:56,000 --> 00:19:58,000 participant in a state sponsored operation. 427 00:19:58,359 --> 00:20:01,440 Speaker 2: And think about the implication of that. If Tusk is right, 428 00:20:01,759 --> 00:20:04,240 then the goal wasn't just sexual gratification for a few 429 00:20:04,279 --> 00:20:08,359 powerful men. The goal is to trap Western leaders, scientists, 430 00:20:08,400 --> 00:20:13,319 and businessmen in compromising situations, film them and store that leverage. 431 00:20:13,480 --> 00:20:17,119 Speaker 1: And if Russia was involved, that means the tapes, if 432 00:20:17,160 --> 00:20:19,759 they exist, they aren't just in an FBI vault somewhere 433 00:20:19,759 --> 00:20:22,240 in Quantico. No, they could be in Moscow. 434 00:20:21,880 --> 00:20:23,880 Speaker 2: And that means they could be used against leaders who 435 00:20:23,880 --> 00:20:26,759 are active today. That is the terrifying part of this 436 00:20:27,279 --> 00:20:30,359 leverage doesn't expire. A video from two thousand and five 437 00:20:30,480 --> 00:20:32,559 is just as damaging in twenty twenty six. 438 00:20:32,680 --> 00:20:35,599 Speaker 1: We also have to connect this to Gislaine Maxwell. Her 439 00:20:35,640 --> 00:20:37,599 father Robert Maxwell. 440 00:20:37,200 --> 00:20:40,440 Speaker 2: A fascinating and shadowy figure, a media tycoon who died 441 00:20:40,480 --> 00:20:43,680 under very mysterious circumstances falling off his yacht. He was 442 00:20:43,720 --> 00:20:47,240 long alleged to have links to Masad, the Israeli intelligence agency, 443 00:20:47,319 --> 00:20:50,640 and the KGB. He was a man who walked between worlds. 444 00:20:50,960 --> 00:20:54,359 Speaker 1: And there's an email where Epstein claims Robert Maxwell threatened Massad. 445 00:20:54,680 --> 00:20:56,640 He said he would expose all if they didn't save 446 00:20:56,720 --> 00:20:57,720 his crumbling empire. 447 00:20:57,960 --> 00:21:01,640 Speaker 2: So you have Gislaine, the daughter of a suspected superspy, 448 00:21:01,680 --> 00:21:04,319 teaming up with Epstein, who is obsessed with Russia and 449 00:21:04,359 --> 00:21:07,599 Putin to build this network of blackmail targets. 450 00:21:08,200 --> 00:21:10,839 Speaker 1: It starts to look less like a crime ring and 451 00:21:10,920 --> 00:21:12,519 more like an intelligence operation. 452 00:21:12,799 --> 00:21:15,880 Speaker 2: It really does. Does this explain why he seemed so 453 00:21:16,200 --> 00:21:17,599 immune for so long? 454 00:21:17,799 --> 00:21:19,240 Speaker 1: It's compelling theory, isn't it. 455 00:21:19,240 --> 00:21:23,000 Speaker 2: It is intelligence assets often enjoy a layer of protection 456 00:21:23,119 --> 00:21:26,119 that normal criminals do not. If he was useful to 457 00:21:26,160 --> 00:21:29,799 a foreign state or even a domestic agency, it would 458 00:21:29,799 --> 00:21:33,440 explain the sweetheart deals, the lack of investigation, the whole 459 00:21:33,559 --> 00:21:36,359 look the other way culture that surrounded him for decades. 460 00:21:36,640 --> 00:21:38,920 Speaker 1: It turns the whole story on its head. He wasn't 461 00:21:38,960 --> 00:21:41,480 just a rich predator. He was a honey trap. 462 00:21:41,319 --> 00:21:44,720 Speaker 2: A honey trap on an industrial global scale, speaking. 463 00:21:44,359 --> 00:21:46,880 Speaker 1: Of people who walked right into that trap. M. We 464 00:21:47,160 --> 00:21:49,160 have to go back to the Palace, Prince Andrew. 465 00:21:48,839 --> 00:21:51,359 Speaker 2: The Palace and the Prince. This relationship is the one 466 00:21:51,359 --> 00:21:54,480 that arguably destroyed a reputation more thoroughly than any other. 467 00:21:54,559 --> 00:21:56,680 It is just a total car crash. 468 00:21:56,720 --> 00:21:59,440 Speaker 1: We knew they were friends, that wasn't new, but the 469 00:21:59,480 --> 00:22:02,079 files were the timeline of that friendship is even worse 470 00:22:02,119 --> 00:22:02,680 than we thought. 471 00:22:02,960 --> 00:22:06,279 Speaker 2: That's correct. We learned from these documents that Andrew invited 472 00:22:06,279 --> 00:22:09,559 Epstein to Buckingham Palace after Epstein's release from house arrest 473 00:22:09,599 --> 00:22:10,359 in twenty. 474 00:22:10,079 --> 00:22:13,599 Speaker 1: Ten, after after he was a convicted registered sex offender. 475 00:22:13,759 --> 00:22:16,599 Speaker 2: And Andrew writes, delighted for you to come here to BP, 476 00:22:17,240 --> 00:22:18,680 come with whomever peep. 477 00:22:18,640 --> 00:22:21,519 Speaker 1: He calls Buckingham Palace BP like it's a corner pub, 478 00:22:21,839 --> 00:22:24,599 and come with whoever. He is literally rolling out the 479 00:22:24,640 --> 00:22:27,799 red carpet for a registered sex offender at the home 480 00:22:27,799 --> 00:22:29,839 of the British monarchy. It's insane. 481 00:22:29,960 --> 00:22:32,680 Speaker 2: And Epstein wasn't just coming for tea. He was offering 482 00:22:32,720 --> 00:22:35,480 to set Andrew up. There's mention of a twenty six 483 00:22:35,599 --> 00:22:39,119 year old Russian woman described as clever and beautiful. 484 00:22:39,279 --> 00:22:42,079 Speaker 1: Again with the Russians is everywhere you look at these files. 485 00:22:42,240 --> 00:22:45,480 Speaker 2: It is a recurring motif. It absolutely suggests the honey 486 00:22:45,480 --> 00:22:47,720 trap was being actively deployed against the Prince. 487 00:22:48,000 --> 00:22:50,480 Speaker 1: And then there's the photo, the one that's been referred 488 00:22:50,480 --> 00:22:53,200 to as the kick photo, or rather the photo of 489 00:22:53,240 --> 00:22:54,480 Andrew on all fours. 490 00:22:54,720 --> 00:22:57,960 Speaker 2: It's a deeply disturbing image Andrew on all fours over 491 00:22:58,000 --> 00:23:02,119 a female. It strips away every last ounce of royal dignity. 492 00:23:02,640 --> 00:23:05,279 It is primal and it is degrading. It's the visual 493 00:23:05,359 --> 00:23:07,920 representation of a total moral collapse. 494 00:23:08,279 --> 00:23:10,960 Speaker 1: But there is a theory in these files that is 495 00:23:11,039 --> 00:23:14,440 even wilder than the photos, the secret baby theory. 496 00:23:14,680 --> 00:23:17,200 Speaker 2: This one is truly out there, but the source material 497 00:23:17,279 --> 00:23:20,440 supports the existence of the discussion. We're not making this up. 498 00:23:20,640 --> 00:23:24,519 There are emails involving Sarah Ferguson Fergie, the Duchess of York, and. 499 00:23:24,480 --> 00:23:26,880 Speaker 1: What do they say? She writes to Epstein about a 500 00:23:27,200 --> 00:23:27,920 baby boy. 501 00:23:28,119 --> 00:23:30,400 Speaker 2: She writes, heard from the Duke that you've had a 502 00:23:30,440 --> 00:23:32,119 baby boy. Congratulations. 503 00:23:32,319 --> 00:23:33,359 Speaker 1: Okay, so that's weird. 504 00:23:33,440 --> 00:23:36,599 Speaker 2: But then later there's another email from Ferguson saying I 505 00:23:36,720 --> 00:23:38,559 did not even know you were having a baby. 506 00:23:38,640 --> 00:23:41,200 Speaker 1: Wait, what that's a total contradiction. 507 00:23:41,400 --> 00:23:44,480 Speaker 2: It's a very confusing exchange. Was it a real baby? 508 00:23:44,640 --> 00:23:47,079 Was baby a code word for something else. If it 509 00:23:47,119 --> 00:23:49,480 was a real child, that child would be around fifteen 510 00:23:49,559 --> 00:23:50,039 years old. 511 00:23:50,039 --> 00:23:53,839 Speaker 1: Now imagine that a fifteen year old heir to the 512 00:23:53,880 --> 00:23:57,559 Epstein legacy. And the source material connects this to a 513 00:23:57,640 --> 00:24:00,839 diary entry from one of the victims who described feeling 514 00:24:00,920 --> 00:24:02,759 like a human incubator. 515 00:24:02,440 --> 00:24:06,119 Speaker 2: And Epstein's known obsession with eugenics. He talked openly about 516 00:24:06,200 --> 00:24:09,359 seating the human race with his DNA, creating a superior 517 00:24:09,480 --> 00:24:10,079 gene pool. 518 00:24:10,359 --> 00:24:12,359 Speaker 1: It's like something out of a sci fi horror movie. 519 00:24:12,880 --> 00:24:17,000 A secret baby, a human incubator, a superior gene pool. 520 00:24:17,480 --> 00:24:18,839 It's almost too much to process. 521 00:24:19,240 --> 00:24:22,200 Speaker 2: It speaks to his staggering narcissism. He didn't just want 522 00:24:22,240 --> 00:24:24,279 to control people in the present. He wanted to control 523 00:24:24,359 --> 00:24:26,000 life itself. He wanted to play god. 524 00:24:26,400 --> 00:24:29,640 Speaker 1: Well his life ended in a jail cell, or did it. 525 00:24:30,000 --> 00:24:32,720 Let's talk about the end of the line, murder versus suicide. 526 00:24:32,839 --> 00:24:35,240 Speaker 2: For a long time, Epstein didn't kill himself. Was just 527 00:24:35,279 --> 00:24:38,240 a meme, you know, a T shirt slogan. But these 528 00:24:38,279 --> 00:24:41,240 files introduced a new piece of evidence that really changes 529 00:24:41,279 --> 00:24:42,559 the calculus. 530 00:24:42,160 --> 00:24:43,599 Speaker 1: The cooperation bombshell. 531 00:24:43,759 --> 00:24:47,599 Speaker 2: Yes, FBI records indicate that Epstein's lawyers were discussing a 532 00:24:47,759 --> 00:24:52,279 resolution and cooperation with federal prosecutors just days before his death, 533 00:24:52,759 --> 00:24:56,319 specifically on July twenty nine, twenty. 534 00:24:56,119 --> 00:24:59,279 Speaker 1: Nineteen July twenty ninth. He died on August tenth, so 535 00:24:59,359 --> 00:25:01,599 less than two weeks before he died, he was actively 536 00:25:01,640 --> 00:25:03,160 talking about flipping exactly. 537 00:25:03,279 --> 00:25:07,160 Speaker 2: Cooperation in federal terms usually means one thing, you're providing 538 00:25:07,200 --> 00:25:11,039 substantial assistance. You're naming names, you're revealing structures, you're opening 539 00:25:11,079 --> 00:25:11,519 the books. 540 00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:13,440 Speaker 1: So if he was about to talk, if he was 541 00:25:13,480 --> 00:25:16,720 about to hand over the compromat, the motive for murder 542 00:25:16,880 --> 00:25:17,799 just skyrockets. 543 00:25:18,039 --> 00:25:21,039 Speaker 2: It goes from being convenient for his associates to being 544 00:25:21,599 --> 00:25:25,480 necessary for anyone who was deeply implicated. If he was 545 00:25:25,519 --> 00:25:28,000 the vault and that vault was about to be opened, 546 00:25:28,519 --> 00:25:30,839 someone might have decided to just blow up the vault. 547 00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:33,559 Speaker 1: What do we know about his last night? He made 548 00:25:33,559 --> 00:25:34,440 a phone call right. 549 00:25:34,480 --> 00:25:37,799 Speaker 2: A twenty minute call to his secret girlfriend, Coriina Shuliac. 550 00:25:38,200 --> 00:25:40,480 We don't know the content of that call. Was he 551 00:25:40,559 --> 00:25:43,759 saying goodbye or was he discussing the terms of his deal. 552 00:25:44,119 --> 00:25:47,359 Was it business as usual? It's a huge blank spot 553 00:25:47,359 --> 00:25:47,880 in the record. 554 00:25:47,920 --> 00:25:50,279 Speaker 1: And then there's the whole body double theory. I always 555 00:25:50,319 --> 00:25:52,920 thought this was pure tinfoil hat stuff, but the files 556 00:25:52,960 --> 00:25:54,880 actually mentioned something that fueled it. 557 00:25:54,960 --> 00:25:58,279 Speaker 2: They do. The documents note that the jail used boxes 558 00:25:58,319 --> 00:26:00,799 and sheets to simulate a body in a white van, 559 00:26:01,240 --> 00:26:03,200 specifically to trick the media. 560 00:26:03,240 --> 00:26:05,960 Speaker 1: To trick the media, so everyone on the news saw 561 00:26:06,000 --> 00:26:08,480 a body leave in a white van, but it was. 562 00:26:08,519 --> 00:26:11,960 Speaker 2: Just laundry pretty much, and the actual body was moved 563 00:26:11,960 --> 00:26:14,480 separately in a black car. Now, the official reason is 564 00:26:14,480 --> 00:26:17,799 for crowd control and to maintain some dignity for the deceased. 565 00:26:17,880 --> 00:26:20,519 But come on, but when you run a decoy operation 566 00:26:20,640 --> 00:26:23,839 with a corpse, you invite conspiracy theories. It makes people 567 00:26:23,920 --> 00:26:26,640 ask was the body in the black car even him? 568 00:26:27,079 --> 00:26:28,119 Was he spirited away? 569 00:26:28,640 --> 00:26:31,000 Speaker 1: I mean, if you're a potential intelligence asset for a 570 00:26:31,039 --> 00:26:35,160 foreign government, getting extracted from a Manhattan jail cell isn't 571 00:26:35,160 --> 00:26:36,440 totally impossible, is it? 572 00:26:36,440 --> 00:26:41,519 Speaker 2: It is highly highly unlikely. But the clumsiness, or perhaps 573 00:26:41,599 --> 00:26:45,559 the cunning of the jail officials created a vacuum where 574 00:26:45,599 --> 00:26:47,319 these theories could thrive and grow. 575 00:26:47,519 --> 00:26:50,480 Speaker 1: And what about the note, the suicide note. The investigators 576 00:26:50,480 --> 00:26:51,240 remarked on it. 577 00:26:51,319 --> 00:26:54,359 Speaker 2: They did. They said, his final communication didn't look like 578 00:26:54,440 --> 00:26:56,759 a note someone would leave if they were ending their life. 579 00:26:57,039 --> 00:26:59,960 It didn't fit the psychological profile of a typical seusice 580 00:27:00,079 --> 00:27:00,559 side note. 581 00:27:00,599 --> 00:27:03,079 Speaker 1: It just adds another layer to the mystery. He was 582 00:27:03,119 --> 00:27:05,440 ready to talk and then he was silenced one. 583 00:27:05,319 --> 00:27:08,039 Speaker 2: Way or another, and with him the immediate threat to 584 00:27:08,079 --> 00:27:09,839 his powerful friends vanished. 585 00:27:10,559 --> 00:27:12,759 Speaker 1: One last theory we absolutely need to touch on. It's 586 00:27:12,799 --> 00:27:14,960 the one that lived on the Internet for years and 587 00:27:15,039 --> 00:27:17,799 became this huge cultural flashpoint, Pizzagate. 588 00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:20,480 Speaker 2: Right, this is a prime example of how internet culture 589 00:27:20,519 --> 00:27:22,400 collides with the text of these files. 590 00:27:22,720 --> 00:27:25,440 Speaker 1: Now, to be clear, the theory was that there was 591 00:27:25,480 --> 00:27:30,000 this specific ring operating out of a GC pizzeria. The 592 00:27:30,039 --> 00:27:33,519 files say there is no evidence of that specific ring. 593 00:27:33,839 --> 00:27:37,039 Speaker 2: Correct. The source material is very clear, no evidence of 594 00:27:37,039 --> 00:27:40,359 the basement, the pizzeria, or the specific politicians named in 595 00:27:40,359 --> 00:27:41,759 that original online theory. 596 00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:46,079 Speaker 1: Yeah, the code words, the weird language. 597 00:27:45,720 --> 00:27:48,480 Speaker 2: They are there, they are there. There are very strange 598 00:27:48,519 --> 00:27:52,559 references to pizza in the emails, things like molded dough 599 00:27:52,759 --> 00:27:55,119 that you put pizza, sauce and cheese. 600 00:27:54,839 --> 00:27:57,319 Speaker 1: On, which is just a bizarre way to describe a pizza, right, 601 00:27:57,400 --> 00:27:59,319 and then there's the description of a pregnant woman. 602 00:27:59,519 --> 00:28:01,480 Speaker 2: That's the p That is the one that just stands out, 603 00:28:01,519 --> 00:28:04,640 that's the pizza. It makes absolutely no culinary sense. It 604 00:28:04,680 --> 00:28:06,079 makes no conversational sense. 605 00:28:06,200 --> 00:28:08,359 Speaker 1: It only makes sense if pizza is a code word 606 00:28:08,400 --> 00:28:08,839 for something. 607 00:28:09,000 --> 00:28:10,720 Speaker 2: And if it is a code what does it stand for. 608 00:28:11,000 --> 00:28:13,640 The source material notes that while the specific piece of 609 00:28:13,680 --> 00:28:16,559 gate theory might be debunked by these files, the use 610 00:28:16,559 --> 00:28:20,519 of coded language for illicit activities is very real. It 611 00:28:20,599 --> 00:28:23,960 fuels the speculation that pizza was a placeholder for something 612 00:28:24,359 --> 00:28:25,960 or someone they couldn't name openly. 613 00:28:26,359 --> 00:28:31,720 Speaker 1: It's the language of a secret society, low carb, gluten, pizza, civilian. 614 00:28:32,240 --> 00:28:35,079 They built a whole lexicon to hide their crimes in 615 00:28:35,119 --> 00:28:35,680 plain sight. 616 00:28:35,920 --> 00:28:37,799 Speaker 2: And that brings us right back to where we started, 617 00:28:38,039 --> 00:28:39,200 the map of influence. 618 00:28:39,599 --> 00:28:43,279 Speaker 1: Okay, let's try to synthesize this horror show. After going 619 00:28:43,319 --> 00:28:47,119 through all of this, what have we actually learned today? 620 00:28:47,720 --> 00:28:51,599 Speaker 2: I think we've learned that the conspiracy theories weren't entirely wrong. 621 00:28:51,839 --> 00:28:54,599 They were just sometimes looking in the wrong direction. The 622 00:28:54,759 --> 00:28:57,680 reality is often more banal and at the same time 623 00:28:57,759 --> 00:28:59,200 more terrifying than the fection. 624 00:28:59,400 --> 00:29:03,240 Speaker 1: It's a world war where billionaires, royalty and scientists. You know, 625 00:29:03,279 --> 00:29:06,119 people were supposed to look up to treated human beings 626 00:29:06,160 --> 00:29:10,440 as commodities, as honey traps, as low carb entertainment. 627 00:29:10,559 --> 00:29:14,200 Speaker 2: And it absolutely validates the Polish Prime Minister's fear if 628 00:29:14,200 --> 00:29:16,599 this was an intelligence operation, where are the rest of 629 00:29:16,640 --> 00:29:17,079 the tapes? 630 00:29:17,200 --> 00:29:19,039 Speaker 1: That's the thought that's going to keep me up tonight. 631 00:29:19,200 --> 00:29:22,759 Epstein is gone, Maxwell is in prison. But the leverage, 632 00:29:22,880 --> 00:29:25,519 the digital files, the videos. 633 00:29:25,160 --> 00:29:28,240 Speaker 2: They exist somewhere, and whoever holds them holds an incredible 634 00:29:28,240 --> 00:29:30,720 amount of power over the people who run our world. 635 00:29:30,839 --> 00:29:36,680 Speaker 1: We scrutinize the names in the files today Etia, Tish, Gates, Musk, Trump, 636 00:29:36,880 --> 00:29:40,680 Prince Andrew. But here is my provocative closing thought for you, 637 00:29:40,880 --> 00:29:43,559 the listener. What is it we know who is named, 638 00:29:44,039 --> 00:29:47,200 but who wasn't named that should have been? Who scrubbed 639 00:29:47,200 --> 00:29:50,119 their tracks better than the rest? And if Jeffrey Epstein 640 00:29:50,160 --> 00:29:53,000 was ready to cooperate on July twenty ninth, who had 641 00:29:53,000 --> 00:29:55,359 the most to lose on August tenth, twenty nineteen. 642 00:29:55,640 --> 00:29:58,480 Speaker 2: That is the question that defines this entire saga. 643 00:29:58,519 --> 00:30:00,440 Speaker 1: I really want to hear from you. Do you believe 644 00:30:00,480 --> 00:30:05,119 the spy theory. Was Epstein a Russian intelligence asset or 645 00:30:05,160 --> 00:30:08,000 was he just a wealthy predator protected by his powerful friends, 646 00:30:08,519 --> 00:30:09,839 or could it somehow be both. 647 00:30:10,119 --> 00:30:12,400 Speaker 2: It's a complex puzzle and we've only just found the 648 00:30:12,400 --> 00:30:13,119 corner pieces. 649 00:30:13,240 --> 00:30:15,240 Speaker 1: Leave a comment let us know your stance on this. 650 00:30:15,279 --> 00:30:18,279 Speaker 2: We read them all and keep questioning the official narrative. 651 00:30:18,640 --> 00:30:21,599 Speaker 1: Thanks for joining us on this thrilling thread. Stay curious, 652 00:30:21,680 --> 00:30:23,880 stay skeptical, and we'll catch you the next one.