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<v Speaker 1>Arizona's rich tapestry of African American history is as long

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<v Speaker 1>as varied as its landscape, but it seems like this

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<v Speaker 1>history often gets overlooked. From Mary Green, the first recorded

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<v Speaker 1>black resident in Phoenix back in eighteen sixty eight, to

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<v Speaker 1>today's vibrant black community of over three hundred and eighteen thousand,

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<v Speaker 1>you think there'd be a concern or a concerted effort

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<v Speaker 1>to celebrate and teach these stories. Yet many argue that

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<v Speaker 1>Arizona's Black history is either sidelined or missing from the classroom.

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<v Speaker 1>We will delve into why, despite the significant contributions and

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<v Speaker 1>presence of Black Arizonians, their stories are frequently relegated to

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<v Speaker 1>the background. We'll examine the reasons behind this historical neglect

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<v Speaker 1>and question what it means for the broader narrative of

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<v Speaker 1>Arizona's past. The Stories from Arizona Republic by Kaylee Mohan

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<v Speaker 1>Amanda Liberto on July nine, twenty twenty four. So I'm

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<v Speaker 1>coming to you, mister Dickey, all right. You know one

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<v Speaker 1>of the things that I know that we discussed in

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<v Speaker 1>the background before we even got talked about. It's like

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<v Speaker 1>the nuances in the layers that happens to be part

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<v Speaker 1>of the story. Can you kind of just go over

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<v Speaker 1>like some of your thoughts when you first came across

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<v Speaker 1>it and read it, and what some of those layers are.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, I mean, first of all, I'm sure that this

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<v Speaker 2>is a story that's common not just to Arizona, but

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<v Speaker 2>nationwide and probably you know, many places in the world.

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<v Speaker 2>And so whenever I see a story like this, I

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<v Speaker 2>always my first thoughts are always, Okay, how am I

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<v Speaker 2>contributing to this problem? And what can I do personally

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<v Speaker 2>to make changes? And so one of the first things

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<v Speaker 2>that struck me, and this was a podcast episode that

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<v Speaker 2>we were listening to, and it was just there was

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<v Speaker 2>just tons of material in there, and it was it

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<v Speaker 2>was a fascinating discussion between these community leaders, and I

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<v Speaker 2>just thought it was really interesting, and so I picked

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<v Speaker 2>out a few quotes and and so I think, moving

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<v Speaker 2>into the problem, it's it's important to recognize what exactly

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<v Speaker 2>is happening here, so we we can look at what's

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<v Speaker 2>happening and then we can look at why it's happening,

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<v Speaker 2>and then we can look at what can we do

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<v Speaker 2>to improvement. And so this was just a couple of

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<v Speaker 2>quotes off the beginning of the of the discussion. The

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<v Speaker 2>first one was from Jessica Salo and she's the assistant

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<v Speaker 2>archivist of Black Collections at Arizona State University. She said,

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<v Speaker 2>zero to two percent of known archival collections of institutional records,

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<v Speaker 2>and she's talking about at ASU at NAU and at

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<v Speaker 2>the University of Arizona, zero to two percent of known

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<v Speaker 2>archival collections and institutional records represent myes and that includes Black,

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<v Speaker 2>Latin X, Pacific Islanders, LGBTQ plus and so on. Those

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<v Speaker 2>groups represent forty two percent of the population, yet zero

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<v Speaker 2>to two percent of their archival collections of you know,

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<v Speaker 2>various things that they you know, documents and literature and

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<v Speaker 2>whatnot that they collect at the at the libraries there.

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<v Speaker 2>It seems quite a bit unbalanced. Forty two percent of

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<v Speaker 2>the population is representing in represented in the people, but

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<v Speaker 2>when it comes to representing these communities in their history records, Okay,

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<v Speaker 2>so we rely on None of us have perfect memory,

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<v Speaker 2>and none of us have memories that can extend beyond

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<v Speaker 2>our lifetime, and so we rely on documents and history

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<v Speaker 2>to learn to I mean, it's important that we know

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<v Speaker 2>about our history and not just our own personal history,

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<v Speaker 2>but you know, all all people that are in America

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<v Speaker 2>and in the world and so on. So first, the

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<v Speaker 2>first thing that jumped out to me was that, yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>you mentioned this was from twenty twenty four, and this

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<v Speaker 2>kind of thing is still happening. It would be it

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<v Speaker 2>would be hilarious if it wasn't so tragic, and so, uh,

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<v Speaker 2>it should be unexpected. But really it's you know, we

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<v Speaker 2>we've come to expect this kind of thing, this kind

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<v Speaker 2>of marginalization and this kind of setting people aside. But

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<v Speaker 2>this second quote is one that really stung me when

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<v Speaker 2>I heard it, and as a public school teacher i

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<v Speaker 2>teach at a state college, it's it really it really

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<v Speaker 2>hit home. And this one was from Pastor Warren Stewart,

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<v Speaker 2>and he said, you may not be a white supremacist,

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<v Speaker 2>but you're a white standardist. And so what he's saying

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<v Speaker 2>is that there's, yeah, of course we're you know, we're

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<v Speaker 2>all familiar with white supremacy and and obviously that's uh,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, something to be fought against and so on.

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<v Speaker 2>But the idea of a white standardist using the white

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<v Speaker 2>life experience as the standard and and you know, like

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<v Speaker 2>I said, as a teacher, that's something that's uh that

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<v Speaker 2>hit me hard and and again, I my first thoughts

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<v Speaker 2>were like, Okay, how am I doing this? And what

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<v Speaker 2>can I do to change it? And so it's it's

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<v Speaker 2>frustrating because it's it's something that we've been dealing with

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<v Speaker 2>a long time. You think we would be able to

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<v Speaker 2>work this out, you know, you think we would be

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<v Speaker 2>able to treat different communities fairly. You think we'd be

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<v Speaker 2>able to recognize the rich diversity in our collective history.

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<v Speaker 2>It's frustrating and it's sad, and you know, I'm hoping

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<v Speaker 2>that it will continue to improve, but it's hard to

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<v Speaker 2>be optimistic about that too.

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<v Speaker 1>I hear what you're saying.

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<v Speaker 3>Eli.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm coming to you because you know, you're remarked on

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<v Speaker 1>how you love when we do shows together. And I

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<v Speaker 1>have a tendency to pick stories that you have no

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<v Speaker 1>frame of reference.

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<v Speaker 4>Whoever, this is not one of those.

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<v Speaker 1>But I'm curious to know, like, you know, what, what

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<v Speaker 1>are your thoughts and about the story, and also you

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<v Speaker 1>know what, what did what did this story actually inspire

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<v Speaker 1>you to do to learn more about the history in

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<v Speaker 1>your own area.

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<v Speaker 3>So I was at first guilty of the thing that

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<v Speaker 3>I used to not realize I was guilty of that.

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<v Speaker 3>I think probably all people do is I looked at

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<v Speaker 3>this through my own lens, and I was like, I mean,

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<v Speaker 3>I don't really know anything about the history of anybody

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<v Speaker 3>in my state. Like there was Lewis and clar I'm

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<v Speaker 3>from Missouri, there was Lewis and Clark, but they're like

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<v Speaker 3>not from here. They just started here, like the majority

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<v Speaker 3>of their thing took place outside of here, so that

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<v Speaker 3>doesn't even count. And then it was when that statement

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<v Speaker 3>was made about white standardism that Scott mentioned, and I

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<v Speaker 3>thought that was such a powerful distinction to make between

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<v Speaker 3>like that standardism and that supremacy, because people who are

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<v Speaker 3>not eager to recognize the types of behaviors that might

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<v Speaker 3>be harmful or not quite the most beneficial, they're less

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<v Speaker 3>likely to take a look at those behaviors if they

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<v Speaker 3>feel like they're being called something like a white supremacist,

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<v Speaker 3>which most of the time isn't truly the case. They

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<v Speaker 3>just don't realize that they are expecting everybody else to

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<v Speaker 3>accept their lens. And I realized that if I wanted

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<v Speaker 3>to go learn about the history of my state, I could,

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<v Speaker 3>and most, if not all, of the characters would be

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<v Speaker 3>people just like me, straight white men, and I don't

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<v Speaker 3>have the problem that if I want to learn about

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<v Speaker 3>my history, I have to go to these great unfair

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<v Speaker 3>I mean unfair iss the word I'm looking for, but

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<v Speaker 3>these links that other people don't have to go to

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<v Speaker 3>in order to learn that history.

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<v Speaker 4>And that's the important takeaway for me.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I kind of wanted to address a little bit

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<v Speaker 1>about that. The difference between white supremacy and white standard

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<v Speaker 1>and white supremacy more so deals with the systems that

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<v Speaker 1>we happen to be in, because the systems in the

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<v Speaker 1>United States favor white people and they don't favor people

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<v Speaker 1>who happen to come from marginalized groups. Remember, if we

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<v Speaker 1>can go back into our history, Scott should know this

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<v Speaker 1>being a teacher at all, that before we even had

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<v Speaker 1>the invention of race, what was considered a civilized person

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<v Speaker 1>is if you were an English Christian man. So, now

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<v Speaker 1>that we have moved forward to invent race and how

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<v Speaker 1>people fit in those particular racial nomenclatures, then that particular

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<v Speaker 1>standard of what is considered as civilized versus what is

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<v Speaker 1>uncivilized or savage. Remember, like you know, especially like in

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<v Speaker 1>the in the colonial period, the word savage was used

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<v Speaker 1>as like you know, insane, insane, you know. So we

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<v Speaker 1>basically have like hierarchy of a system on where people

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<v Speaker 1>would fit in and how they are treated by law.

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<v Speaker 1>That's white supremacy. But then we have the standard that

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<v Speaker 1>all of us basically are measured by, including what we

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<v Speaker 1>are taught about our nation. We're taught about ourselves, and

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<v Speaker 1>we're taught about how and what is considered important. As

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<v Speaker 1>far as lessons learned, I can't even think for myself

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<v Speaker 1>as an anecdote that even though that I being an

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<v Speaker 1>African American, I went mostly to African American predominant schools,

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<v Speaker 1>and until well, no and all of them my parents

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<v Speaker 1>paid for. I did not know a lot of Black

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<v Speaker 1>history until I became an adult. And it was because

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<v Speaker 1>I took the time to seek out that history, because

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<v Speaker 1>I felt it was important to learn this history so

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<v Speaker 1>I can learn more about myself, because I'm part of

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<v Speaker 1>this group and I want to know what the contributions

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<v Speaker 1>of my group was to what we call the United States.

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<v Speaker 1>But the standard of what was taught in schools, what

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<v Speaker 1>was presented as lessons, were not of that ilk. Even

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<v Speaker 1>though I had some teachers who went out of their

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<v Speaker 1>way to teach Black history. But it was very much

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<v Speaker 1>so on the tertiary level. It was not necessarily in

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<v Speaker 1>in a way that could be as rich and diverse

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<v Speaker 1>as Black American history is, and especially thinking of it

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<v Speaker 1>as not just Black history or African American history, but

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<v Speaker 1>American history. But Jonathan, I'm coming to you before I,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, start doing my sermon and then you know,

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<v Speaker 1>doing the collection afterwards, I will be asking for tides

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<v Speaker 1>on all for an agrical I'm going to hold you

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<v Speaker 1>to that, but I but you know, but there was

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<v Speaker 1>certain things that you mentioned that actually stood out see

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<v Speaker 1>you the most when you was, you know, being exposed

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<v Speaker 1>to story. Can you can you expand on that a bit?

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<v Speaker 5>Yeah? One of the things that bothered me was that

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<v Speaker 5>the lack of representation. There's two things actually, and I'll

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<v Speaker 5>be brief, Yeah that's going to happen, But there are

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<v Speaker 5>two things. One is that the representation of minority groups

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<v Speaker 5>is isn't there in like the libraries that do these

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<v Speaker 5>archiving There are only three black librarians at ASU, and

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<v Speaker 5>two are near retirement, and there's no plans to replace

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<v Speaker 5>them with people of that community. And that leads to

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<v Speaker 5>the main point I want to make is that black

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<v Speaker 5>students have to fight not only black students, but brown students,

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<v Speaker 5>rainbow students. They all have to fight for equity and

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<v Speaker 5>inclusion and are taught by white teachers and administrators and

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<v Speaker 5>the majority of people who aren't even in their community,

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<v Speaker 5>So their community stories, their community history is ignored. How

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<v Speaker 5>are they supposed to feel included? How are they supposed

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<v Speaker 5>to feel part of something when they don't see themselves

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<v Speaker 5>in those positions and you know, or people like them,

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<v Speaker 5>And that has to have a great effect on their

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<v Speaker 5>ability to learn, on their ability to grow as human beings,

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<v Speaker 5>and their ability to participate in a society that is

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<v Speaker 5>basically make them fight for inclusion in everything. And that's just,

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<v Speaker 5>you know, the conditions that we're in. But we can

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<v Speaker 5>go a long way by recruiting administrators and teachers and

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<v Speaker 5>librarians and people who are in the community so they

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<v Speaker 5>can represent their community at the table where the decisions

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<v Speaker 5>are made. And we have to think about not just

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<v Speaker 5>doing it because they're of that community, but doing it

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<v Speaker 5>in such a way that their inclusion is natural and

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<v Speaker 5>actually something that we expect to have happening. And I'm

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<v Speaker 5>not in that community I'm in one of those communities,

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<v Speaker 5>but I'm not in the community that is most visibly effected,

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<v Speaker 5>and that means that I may not have the right

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<v Speaker 5>perspective here, but I do have an irritating an irritation

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<v Speaker 5>that the representation is deliberately not there, possibly not necessarily intentionally,

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<v Speaker 5>but considered because the culture has evolved to that position,

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<v Speaker 5>the culture of the colonial culture has evolved to that position.

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<v Speaker 5>And it's upsetting because I went to high school in

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<v Speaker 5>a multicultural high school, but I wasn't aware at that

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<v Speaker 5>time that all but one of my instructors was cis

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<v Speaker 5>white male. There were a couple of females sis white

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<v Speaker 5>females in there. We had one black instructor and I

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<v Speaker 5>had one half it was half Island I think he

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<v Speaker 5>was it was Tomorrow, But anyway, all that said, that

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<v Speaker 5>was it. And we had about a quarter of the

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<v Speaker 5>high school population where Islanders there were Polynesians, about a

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<v Speaker 5>third were black. There were probably another fifteen percent who

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<v Speaker 5>were Latinos or Latinas, and then there was the white

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<v Speaker 5>guys about ten ten fifteen percent. It was very rich culturally,

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<v Speaker 5>but we didn't experience that in the education. So that's

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<v Speaker 5>the point I wanted to make.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and I hear that, and I kind of wanted

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<v Speaker 1>to come back to that particular point about like, despite

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<v Speaker 1>being in setting where we are around a multi faceted people,

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<v Speaker 1>genders and cultures and experiences, but still are not really

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<v Speaker 1>able to learn about those things. And I kind of

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<v Speaker 1>want to borrow a little bit, God, if you don't mind,

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<v Speaker 1>from your notes. Specifically from one of the panelists that

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<v Speaker 1>was featured a belief her name of Chanelle Poe, who

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<v Speaker 1>was an expert in education and advocacy and who also

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<v Speaker 1>emphasizes the systematic issues of erasure of black history from

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<v Speaker 1>the school curricula. And one of the things that she said,

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<v Speaker 1>and I'm taking from you is when I think about institutions,

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<v Speaker 1>as a former school board member, I'm looking at our beautiful,

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<v Speaker 1>richly diverse student body that was sixty five percent Latino,

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<v Speaker 1>twenty five percent African American, six percent Quite, and six

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<v Speaker 1>percent Native American. As the mother of a black son

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<v Speaker 1>who was frustrated, angered, and felt alone when my child

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<v Speaker 1>entered the education system, who immediately started getting suspended from school,

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<v Speaker 1>I had to take a step back and ask ourselves,

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<v Speaker 1>why isn't there individuals serving on this board, the demographic

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<v Speaker 1>of this district. I have another question, why aren't there

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<v Speaker 1>educators that reflect the demographic of this district because there's

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<v Speaker 1>going to be a huge disconnect. Now, I believe that

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<v Speaker 1>most of us are parents on this on this panel,

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<v Speaker 1>and have a question to ask all the parents. Say

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<v Speaker 1>to Jonathan, but I you know, but I I would,

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<v Speaker 1>but I'm pretty sure that you've been around kids and

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<v Speaker 1>you were one over sixty years. Well I'm going to well,

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<v Speaker 1>I'll come to Scott and then to Eli. You know,

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<v Speaker 1>as a parent, and and especially you know that cares

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<v Speaker 1>about your your kids education. And you hear what Chanelle

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<v Speaker 1>Poe has said what strikes you the most? And and

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<v Speaker 1>what and and how would you say that you're able

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<v Speaker 1>to empathize with what she was saying Scott And then.

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<v Speaker 2>Well that's quite a question there. Well as far as

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<v Speaker 2>my own kids education, both my wife and I from

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<v Speaker 2>from the get go, we knew we wanted to prioritize

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<v Speaker 2>exposing our kids to diverse experiences. And so when the

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<v Speaker 2>kids were born, we lived in Saint Paul's City and

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<v Speaker 2>uh so they went to a city school and a

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<v Speaker 2>public school. And when we moved out, we moved out.

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<v Speaker 2>We needed a bigger house. For some reason, the kids

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<v Speaker 2>kept getting bigger. Go figure, Yeah, so we needed a

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<v Speaker 2>bigger house. We wanted a bigger yard, and so we

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<v Speaker 2>moved out to the suburbs. But we we deliberately kept

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<v Speaker 2>our kids in the city schools and so in which

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<v Speaker 2>we were allowed to do as long as we provided transportation.

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<v Speaker 2>But we did that because we wanted our children to

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<v Speaker 2>experience those those diverse life experiences, and they what we

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<v Speaker 2>wanted them to see that there are other people. And

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<v Speaker 2>I'm sure it's not surprising that the particular suburb that

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<v Speaker 2>we lived in, the you know, the schools out here

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<v Speaker 2>are largely white students, you know, wealthy white students. And

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<v Speaker 2>so we didn't want we didn't want that. And so

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<v Speaker 2>I mentioned before that one that my perspective on stories

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<v Speaker 2>like this is to first think about what am I

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<v Speaker 2>doing to contribute to the problem, and what can I

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<v Speaker 2>do to help the problem. And then I'm going to

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<v Speaker 2>add this third thing, Now, what can I do to

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<v Speaker 2>help my children be better? Be more sympathetic, be more empathetic,

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<v Speaker 2>be more able, and more willing, and to not only

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<v Speaker 2>embrace diversity, but to enact change, to insist on that

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<v Speaker 2>kind of thing. And so I that was just a

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<v Speaker 2>baby step that we took at the beginning, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>it was just a decision that we made. And so

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<v Speaker 2>and as my children growing up, my youngest is seventeen now,

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<v Speaker 2>my oldest is twenty one, and you know, we're happy

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<v Speaker 2>with the bright carrying people that they've turned into. I

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<v Speaker 2>think beyond that, you know, talking about it is something

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<v Speaker 2>that we can do, taking opportunities to support measures, not

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<v Speaker 2>just short stop gap measures either. But this is a

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<v Speaker 2>systemic issue. I think if all the research shows nothing

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<v Speaker 2>else other than the fact that this is a systemic issue,

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<v Speaker 2>and it will take a systemic problem and systemic problem

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<v Speaker 2>or sorry, systemic solution. And so systemic solutions often need

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<v Speaker 2>to come from the ground up, from the grassroots up.

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<v Speaker 2>And so by maintaining that kind of attitude, by maintaining

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<v Speaker 2>that kind of of approach, I think that we feel

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<v Speaker 2>like we're taking steps in the right direction. But obviously

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<v Speaker 2>it's just a drop in the bucket. And so I

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<v Speaker 2>think vigilance, I think discipline, I think consistency, I think perseverance.

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<v Speaker 2>I think all of those are going to contribute to

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<v Speaker 2>things that I can do and that I can pass

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<v Speaker 2>on to my kids as far as at least taking

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<v Speaker 2>the tiniest little chip out of this massive, you know

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<v Speaker 2>problem that we have here in the United States. Mean yeah, So.

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<v Speaker 3>I when I think about, especially like in education, my

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<v Speaker 3>son is biracial, his mom is black, and I think

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<v Speaker 3>about because I don't know what perspective he's going to

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<v Speaker 3>have about that. Because I live in a rural town.

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<v Speaker 4>They're there.

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<v Speaker 3>I mean it's not I wouldn't say it's not you know, whitewashed,

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<v Speaker 3>so to speak.

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<v Speaker 5>It.

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<v Speaker 4>I don't know if that's appropriate to say or not.

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<v Speaker 3>But like there there there are non white, there are

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<v Speaker 3>people of color that live around here. But I don't

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<v Speaker 3>think he has very many friends in school that are

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<v Speaker 3>not white, and I'm curious about what his perspective is

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<v Speaker 3>going to be. And when I hear about things like

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<v Speaker 3>you know, having school boards that don't represent the demographics

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<v Speaker 3>accurately and then having you know, not having access to

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<v Speaker 3>this education about like black history, well that's my son's

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<v Speaker 3>history too. It may not you know, necessarily like I,

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<v Speaker 3>I might not have as close of a relationship to

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<v Speaker 3>it as he does, but that doesn't mean it's not important.

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<v Speaker 3>And I wouldn't know the first place to start, you know,

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<v Speaker 3>to teach him that.

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<v Speaker 4>So I I, yeah, it does alarm me, and I

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<v Speaker 4>prefer to see a change.

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<v Speaker 1>And Jonathan, I'm going to give you my last question

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<v Speaker 1>before we wrap up, even though I understand you're not

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<v Speaker 1>a parent, but you know, last time I checked your

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<v Speaker 1>human being, and as a human being, how do you

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<v Speaker 1>see your role in advancing the call?

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<v Speaker 5>I think that there's not. As part of the LGBTQ community,

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<v Speaker 5>I can represent that, and in my personal relationships, of course,

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<v Speaker 5>you know, I'm in a very, very white community. There

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<v Speaker 5>are one or two out of the some odd fifty

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<v Speaker 5>thousand people here who are of color that I've seen,

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<v Speaker 5>and actually both of them are my friends. So but

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<v Speaker 5>they don't see any representation here on any of the

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<v Speaker 5>school boards or things like that. And when you consider

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<v Speaker 5>that this is one of the centers for white nationalism,

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<v Speaker 5>we have many, many terrorist groups in this state who

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<v Speaker 5>have made national news. So the attitude here against people

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<v Speaker 5>of color is devastatingly bad. But I speak up when

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<v Speaker 5>I see it. If I'm out in public and I

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<v Speaker 5>see somebody being a jerk, I will tell them their

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<v Speaker 5>jerk and people using bad language. I literally came close

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<v Speaker 5>to jacking a guy up, which would have put me

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<v Speaker 5>in jail who was in my gym and using the

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<v Speaker 5>N word a lot, and I just started yelling at him.

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<v Speaker 5>And I realized that was probably not the appropriate thing

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<v Speaker 5>to do, but it made me feel better appropriate. What

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<v Speaker 5>do I stand up? You know.

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<v Speaker 1>One of the reasons why I wanted to go over

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<v Speaker 1>the story because even though it doesn't necessarily talk so

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<v Speaker 1>much about secularism atheism, we're like some horrible pastor doing

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<v Speaker 1>something horrible, like we co said just another Wednesday, is

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<v Speaker 1>because one of the things that is happening because of

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<v Speaker 1>the rise of Christian nationalism is an attack on education.

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<v Speaker 1>And the places that we're seeing at the most is

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<v Speaker 1>the book ban and book bands are coming married, but

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<v Speaker 1>so after stories that contain the LGBTQI plus experience and

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<v Speaker 1>the black and we're seeing more and more of these

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<v Speaker 1>books that are coming off the shows. And we're also

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<v Speaker 1>seeing either a dumbing down or a complete erasure of

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<v Speaker 1>African American studies curricula, you know, in the public school

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<v Speaker 1>areas all across the United States. And one of the

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<v Speaker 1>things that I want to make our audience aware of.

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<v Speaker 1>You know that even though that it may not necessarily

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<v Speaker 1>be a secular issue. It is a humanist issue, and

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<v Speaker 1>all of us should be very much so alarmed and

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<v Speaker 1>aware of these things. And we also have to understand,

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<v Speaker 1>and I'm just going to say it, that the United

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<v Speaker 1>States would not be the United States if it was

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<v Speaker 1>not for black people. You remember that whole thing called slavery. Yeah,