Speaker 1: Hi, is it John?
Speaker 2: How are you doing today, sir?
Speaker 1: I'm honored to be with you. Thank you so much
for having me.
Speaker 2: Dude, where did you gain the confidence when it comes
to being transparent as well as to have the courage
to be able to step up and say something such
as separation of church and hate. We're all thinking it,
but you're saying it. And now it's like, here is
this book, here is your presentation. We're all going, yeah, yeah,
I agree with what John is doing.
Speaker 1: Well. My mom was a nun, my dad was a
Franciscan brother, and they were in the clergy for many,
many years. My mother worked as a nurse with lepers
in Malawi, Africa, and they both left and they tried
to raise us to be Christian based on the teachings
of Jesus, that that's what the religion is about. Service
to others and love and empathy and forgiveness and of
course the more specific ones. Individuals and nations have to
care for the poor and care for the sick, and
welcome the stranger, pay your damn taxes, stop executing people,
you know, the stuff Jesus actually talked about. And then
we grow up in this society to find seemingly it's
been hijacked by this mean, little tax free clique that
doesn't fight for the things Jesus talked about. They're saying
Christians are supposed to be mean to trans people and
don't welcome the stranger, persecute the migrant. And I got
kind of tired of seeing my mom and Dad's religion
being weaponized into something mean and cruel. And the teachings
of Jesus are as revolutionary and is threatening to authoritarian
power now as they were two thousand years ago. And
that's why authoritarian power likes to worship Jesus waving around
as a prop They don't talk about the stuff he
actually commanded. And so you don't need to believe in
Jesus to use his words against these authoritarians. And I
wrote this book for believers and atheists, anybody who's ever
going to have to deal with an authoritarian, right wing Christian,
fundamentalist or nationalist.
Speaker 2: I'm glad you brought up atheists. And the reason why
is because I remember sitting inside my studio at iHeart
and I had a preacher come in, and there happened
to be a book in there that was written by
an atheist and his people that he brought with him
were shocked that he says, I would like to have
this book, And now they go, why would you want that?
I have to see what the other side is talking about.
I want to know what their beliefs are.
Speaker 1: Well, and again, like, if you're a Christian who hates atheists,
you're not a very good Christian. Some of the best
Christians I've known have been atheists, and some of the
most godless Heathens I've known have been very devout, very
obnoxiously loud believers. But you're right, I mean, where's your faith?
If someone else's lack of faith threatens yours, yours ain't
very strong. So and I actually wrote this book for
atheists and believers, which was a very interesting writing challenge.
But I think throughout history we've seen atheists and Christians
have to band together along with people of other faiths.
And with what we're facing now, you know what if
all the cool atheists and all the cool Christians could
band together and realize, hey, we care about homelessness, we
care about health care and poverty and education and pollution,
well that could be a pretty strong block, especially in
a nation that thrives on Divide and Conquer for power.
Speaker 2: I do a lot of research on where people are
when it comes to spirituality versus religion, versus whatever else
they might be believing in me. And one of the
things that I keep running into is that people are
running from the church, but they're creating their own belief
in spirituality. Isn't that kind of a dangerous walk if
they don't have the true guidance of what they're reading
and it's not just their interpretation.
Speaker 1: Well sure it could be dangerous. But if they're leaving
the church because the church is so damn mean, it's predictable.
And again, like I talked to, I hear this all
the time. Wherever I've performed or done stand up or
done radio or TV, I meet so many people who
all have the same story. They were raised in this
religion of love and empathy, they were religious, and then
they saw it seemingly hijacked. I mean, in the seventies
and eighties, you know these Fallwells and Pat Robertson's, these
blow dry televangelists, and these these segregationists. I mean, Fallow
is a literal segregationist who supported a bartide and opened
to whites only schools. I never knew that. As a kid,
the guy just hailed as a Christian leader on my
TV Christian Leader Jerry Folwell. I debated to the guy
on Bill Maher in my twenties. I still didn't know
he'd been a segregation It's when I met him. They
didn't tell me this, and it's like, this is what
passes for Christianity, and so, yeah, so many people are
leaving the church, but they ain't leaving because of Jesus.
They ain't leaving because of God. They ain't leaving because
of Noah's Arkur Santa Claus. They're leading because of the
meanness and cruelties and hypocrisies of organized religion. And so, yeah,
you're right, But I don't think you necessarily need to
have a church to have a very rich, full spiritual life.
Maybe for a while your church is working on a
homeless shelter or a suit kitchen, if you're city church,
and if your church isn't preaching love your enemies, but
keeps telling you who your enemies are, you're not really
in a church.
Speaker 2: Man, John, somebody once had and actually they asked me
all the time, why do I work at a grocery store.
Here's this radio guy of forty six years, but he's
got a part time job at a grocery store. And
I will tell them that is my church, that is
my community. I am going there to be with every person,
every age group, poor, rich, I don't care.
Speaker 1: It's my church and to be of service to them,
which is what the religion was about. But the right
wing Christianity has never been about service. It's always been
about power. It's always been about domination. That's why they
defended slavery, that's why they defended segregation, and all throughout history,
and I go into this in the book. Every time
authoritarian Christianity has done something cruel, it's always been the
christ followers who pushed back and the Crusades and the
Christians were slaughtering Jews and Muslims. The christ follower like
Saint Francis Assisi who renounced war when Columbus was slaughtering
the Taino people in Hispanola. It was the Catholic priest
on his boat, Bartolomeo de las casas first act of
protest by a white person against Columbus's mutilation and rape
and murder of the indigenous peoples Christianity propped up slavery,
and Jesus followers like Frederick Douglas and the Quakers and
Harriet Tubman pushed back Christianity propped up segregation, and Doctor
King used scripture to shame white America out of this
American apartheid. We've all seen how many of us have
talked so many parents and grandparents out of so much
homophobia in the last thirty years. So I do believe
that progress is possible. I do believe people want to
be good and our hearts can open, and I do
believe the teachings of Jesus. You know, look, if you're
at a Rolling Stoness cover band and you advertise that
you're a Rolling Stones cover band, but you never do
any Rolling Stone songs, You just do nickel Back and
Vanilla Ice, maybe it's time to find a new name
for your group. And if you're boasting of your Christian
piety but you're fighting against everything, you're voting against, legislating
against everything in the Beatitudes, everything in Matthew twenty five,
I ask Trump supporters every night on Sirius XM, give
me one teaching of Christ that he fights for. Yeah,
that's about these people. Don't know the Bible, and the
authoritarians are counting on you not knowing the Bible. And
that's why all this homophobia that's against Jesus, that's why
it's flourished. That's why they got two generations of Christians
to vote against everything Christ ever talked about by talking
about abortion, which Christ never talked about.
Speaker 2: So I don't want to step on anybody's toes. And
if you don't want to go here, please just tell me.
But see, I was totally unknown of this guy by
the name of Charlie Kirk. And but yet, I mean,
you know, and all I've heard is God, God, God, God, God, God, God.
And I'm going, okay. If he's God, God, God, God,
why have I never known about Charlie Kirk?
Speaker 1: Because right when, Christianity is not about the teachings of Jesus,
it is about power and cultural domination. And mister Kirk,
who I had my own dealings with, was very well
compensated to normalize white supremacy to college students and people
in their twenties. I ask, anyone, tell me what teaching
of Jesus. Turning Point USA fights for. Where's their work
on fighting poverty, Where's their work on opposing the death penalty.
Where where's their work on helping the sick and getting
care to the sec Where is their work on welcoming
the stranger?
Speaker 2: Again?
Speaker 1: All of this and they call it Marxism. So you know,
if you're going to stand in our house and claim
that you represent Jesus, you got a first Amendment right
to twist Jesus' words. We got a first Amendment right
to call you out for it. Turning point today was
not about the values of Christ. You don't get rich
doing that. You don't get a big luxury megachurch fighting
for the poor.
Speaker 2: This is how you know.
Speaker 1: Are you part of Christianity or are you part of
Jesus movement? Are you part of this movement for power?
So you know, God bless mister Kirk. What happened was
an atrocity, yes, But I mean if they wanted abortions
to stop, they'd fight for birth control, they'd fight for
sex set in the schools. They use the issue for power.
Jesus commands us to welcome the stranger. God in the
Old Testament commands us to treat the alien as one
of our own. I ask all the time I was
on with Scott Jennings on CNN. I said, why should
I listen to you and Donald Trump and reject Jesus
and God. You don't need to believe in all the Bible,
it's literal fact to use it against these frauds and
Charlatan's who are taking a move based on love and
empathy and using it to justify cruelty.
Speaker 2: Please do not move. We'll be right back with comedian
author John Fugal saying the name of his book, Separation
of Church and Hate. We are back with comedian and
author John Fugal saying, I gotta tell you where and
I've seen it as a weakness, but I also see
this strength and sharing a conversation with you is that
when things do happen in the reality of our today,
the first thing I do is I go, oh, I
know where that is in the book. I know. I'm
going to the book to find out what they did
in the Bible. And because it's like I need to
understand where we are in this present place of now.
Speaker 1: Same here. Yeah every day. By the way, just building
up what you just said, I'm so sorry, but like
like in all cases, right, because you know, we got
a whole couple generations of people that think, I hate
the gays, and I put up a tree in my
house once a year, and I think the government should
force pregnant citizens to be pregnant against their will. None
of that has anything to do with Jesus. But for millions,
that's been enough. You're voting for the Donald Trump agenda,
and you think that that's somehow of Jesus. The rest
of us have a right to ask you how to
prove that? Where? Yeah, because he didn't get to be
president by promising to do the things Christ taught. When
did Donald Trump ever promise to do what Jesus said. No,
he promised to put conservative Christians on top. He promised
them earthly power. He played up the persecution narrative that
you're the majority, you white Christians, but you're under siege. Oh,
you're so under siege, you you majority population, and they
ate it up because he wasn't asking about the inconvenient
Jesus commands of picking up across and working for the
least fortunate. He was saying, you're better. And that's the
essence of fundamentalism, not believing they're better than you, believing
God thinks they're better than you.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. We're in a position now where we all
think that if I show up on Sunday, then I'm
good and clean, I'm good. And when people don't realize
that it's an activation of every day and you know,
you talk about the things that you have done in life.
I keep my Christmas tree up every single day because
I believe Christmas is every day. But I'll bet you
there are people out there if they saw my Christmas
tree lit up, they would be so offended and go
against me.
Speaker 1: Well, I used to keep my Christmas tree up all
year long, too, but that was because of sloth. But
you know, look, I think it's the same thing. Keep
it in our heart. But even at Christmas, right, it's
this whole war on Christmas nonsense, like like why shouldn't
we say happy Holidays? If you're a Christian, you want
to extend goodwill to everybody, including those outside of your tribe.
Happy Holidays is more Christian than Merry Christmas. But they
don't care about extending love to people outside your group.
They care about conservative Christian domination and culture. So you
have to say Merry Christmas to appease my club. It's like,
why do you hate capitalism. I mean, it's better for
business to be nice to all consumers, not just a
Christian kind. But again, it's all about control, that's it.
That's why it's brittle, That's why it's unmanly, That's why
it's not of Jesus. And that's why so many young
people are saying so long, so.
Speaker 2: Do you do anything to test the waters? And what
I may meet when I'm mean by that is that
when I give somebody their money back at the grocery store,
the first thing that I'll say afterwards is I'll go, hey,
if I don't see you, merry Christmas and they and
that to me is testing the waters to find out
where they are nice.
Speaker 1: But see, you're you're testing the waters because you care.
I do, and you're testing the waters, not imposing your
boat on the pond.
Speaker 2: How did you research for this book? Because I mean,
I love the way that you dive into these stories.
Is it all personal experience or or are you like me?
And it's like, you know, research is like I'm addicted
to it. I can't get enough research in my life.
Speaker 1: It's both. I mean, I've always been into researching the
Bible heavily. Yes, when I stopped really kissing the ring.
I mean I was. I was a very loyal, obedient
Catholic all through college and then I went to school
in Greenwich Village. I had the cool church that accepted
gay couples in the eighties and nineties. But when I
when I stopped kissing the ring as it were. I
still consider myself Catholic, that's my asexual orientation. But I
got a lot deeper into theology and into what Jesus
actually said versus what his unauthorized fan clubs believe he said.
And I came to realize that for many of us,
this Jesus is three things, the Manger, the miracles, and
the Cross, not the three years he spent teaching and
preaching and instructing us what we'd have to do to
earn the label of Christian nation. The teachings of Jesus
are to me what the book's all about. I mean,
there's plenty of Nazis who didn't follow the teachings of Jesus,
but they preached how much they loved him. Are they
in heaven? I don't know, not for me to say,
but the actual teachings of Jesus are still very threatening
to the loudest, most obnoxious Christians out there. And I
wrote this book for anybody again, atheist or believer, if
you have to live with one of these people or
work with one of these people, the people who have
weaponized this Bible for cruelty and meanness. This book is
going to show you how to talk to him and
how to get them to agree on a few basic
things and how whatever they're saying, they're generally against this
brown skinned carpenter that they wave around as a.
Speaker 2: My awareness meter is on overload right now only because
of what's happened with Stephen Colbert as well as Jimmy Kimmel,
because I believe that if they truly are going to
try to silence those that are on Late Night, they're
going to come after my pastor, Stephen Ferdick, because the
man likes to really dive into that book. And the
thing is is that, you know, will they eventually jump
into the churches say we don't do that now that
we've changed, and so should you.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but they're also sloppy. I mean, look how they
went after Kimmel, this whole business rending car All these
guys are amateurs. You know, it would have been so
easy for them to take Kimmel off the air. He
gets like twelve percent with the demo, right, It would
have been so easy to just say, Jimmy, we got
to cut the budget, like wait six months, wait a year,
and do it behind the scenes. But these guys are thirsty.
They want to wave around a scalp. They want power.
They're all auditioning for man Baby to think that they're
the meanest little henchman. So Car goes on and pretty
much spills the beans and abuses his power, announces this
is going to be government coerce self censorship. They seem
to think that the majority population is the same people
that cheer for them in their rallies. Because this was
never going to happen, I said last week, I'm sure
they're not going to fire Kimmell permanently because Bob Iger
has a better sense of history. Bob Biger doesn't want
censorship in the first paragraph of his obituary. But these
right wing guys, they care about right now, pleasing mister Trump. Power, power, power.
I've never seen a group of men less concerned with
what the history books will say about him. It's shocking.
Speaker 2: See, I'm not afraid of the current president. It's those
that shall follow.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, we'll see. I'm waiting on a gigantic, incredible
decency and intelligence backlash from gen z Niels. I think
we're going to have a real desire for America to
be the good guys again, because the only thing that's
going to save this country is love for America, but
also love from America. And I think a smart Democratic
politician could sell this message. I don't know why this
party is so terrified of talking about scripture, but it
seems to many that the Democratic Party has just given
up on the Bible, like they've given up on the
flag and patriotism. And I mean, you're crazy, Like the
Bible's not against abortion, and for forty five years that's
been their issue. They have used this one thing that
Jesus never talked about to get Christians to vote against
the stuff Jesus really did talk about. And I got
tired of waiting for Democrats or the media to ever
ask the right follow up questions. So I wrote this
book for everybody because I grew up so deep in
this and it's been my passion my whole life. I've
been having I was debating Jerry Folwell and David Duke
on Bill Maher in my twenties and I debate these
folks every night on Serious XM. I know their arguments,
I know where they're coming from. I know they haven't
actually read most of the Bible. And so this war's
not going to be won by politicians to struggle against
violent Christian extremism. It's not going to be won by
the media asking tough questions. It's going to be won
by all of us over dinner tables and in workplaces,
in schools and stressing what's in the book, and stressing
love and not being a douchebag and pretending it's Christian.
Speaker 2: I love where your heart is. Man it up, keep
it up, and keep making noise. Dude. You got to
come back to this show anytime in the future atime. Dude,
anytime you'll have me.
Speaker 1: My par officer says, I can come back.
Speaker 2: So it will. You be brilliant today.
Speaker 1: Okay, thank you so much, you too, Thanks for having
me and letting me drag your show down to my level.
Speaker 2: We shut off with my guy