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Speaker 1: Hi, is it John?

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Speaker 2: How are you doing today, sir?

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Speaker 1: I'm honored to be with you. Thank you so much

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for having me.

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Speaker 2: Dude, where did you gain the confidence when it comes

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to being transparent as well as to have the courage

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to be able to step up and say something such

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as separation of church and hate. We're all thinking it,

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but you're saying it. And now it's like, here is

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this book, here is your presentation. We're all going, yeah, yeah,

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I agree with what John is doing.

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Speaker 1: Well. My mom was a nun, my dad was a

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Franciscan brother, and they were in the clergy for many,

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many years. My mother worked as a nurse with lepers

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in Malawi, Africa, and they both left and they tried

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to raise us to be Christian based on the teachings

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of Jesus, that that's what the religion is about. Service

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to others and love and empathy and forgiveness and of

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course the more specific ones. Individuals and nations have to

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care for the poor and care for the sick, and

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welcome the stranger, pay your damn taxes, stop executing people,

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you know, the stuff Jesus actually talked about. And then

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we grow up in this society to find seemingly it's

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been hijacked by this mean, little tax free clique that

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doesn't fight for the things Jesus talked about. They're saying

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Christians are supposed to be mean to trans people and

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don't welcome the stranger, persecute the migrant. And I got

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kind of tired of seeing my mom and Dad's religion

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being weaponized into something mean and cruel. And the teachings

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of Jesus are as revolutionary and is threatening to authoritarian

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power now as they were two thousand years ago. And

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that's why authoritarian power likes to worship Jesus waving around

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as a prop They don't talk about the stuff he

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actually commanded. And so you don't need to believe in

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Jesus to use his words against these authoritarians. And I

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wrote this book for believers and atheists, anybody who's ever

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going to have to deal with an authoritarian, right wing Christian,

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fundamentalist or nationalist.

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Speaker 2: I'm glad you brought up atheists. And the reason why

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is because I remember sitting inside my studio at iHeart

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and I had a preacher come in, and there happened

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to be a book in there that was written by

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an atheist and his people that he brought with him

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were shocked that he says, I would like to have

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this book, And now they go, why would you want that?

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I have to see what the other side is talking about.

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I want to know what their beliefs are.

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Speaker 1: Well, and again, like, if you're a Christian who hates atheists,

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you're not a very good Christian. Some of the best

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Christians I've known have been atheists, and some of the

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most godless Heathens I've known have been very devout, very

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obnoxiously loud believers. But you're right, I mean, where's your faith?

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If someone else's lack of faith threatens yours, yours ain't

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very strong. So and I actually wrote this book for

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atheists and believers, which was a very interesting writing challenge.

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But I think throughout history we've seen atheists and Christians

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have to band together along with people of other faiths.

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And with what we're facing now, you know what if

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all the cool atheists and all the cool Christians could

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band together and realize, hey, we care about homelessness, we

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care about health care and poverty and education and pollution,

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well that could be a pretty strong block, especially in

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a nation that thrives on Divide and Conquer for power.

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Speaker 2: I do a lot of research on where people are

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when it comes to spirituality versus religion, versus whatever else

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they might be believing in me. And one of the

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things that I keep running into is that people are

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running from the church, but they're creating their own belief

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in spirituality. Isn't that kind of a dangerous walk if

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they don't have the true guidance of what they're reading

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and it's not just their interpretation.

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Speaker 1: Well sure it could be dangerous. But if they're leaving

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the church because the church is so damn mean, it's predictable.

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And again, like I talked to, I hear this all

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the time. Wherever I've performed or done stand up or

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done radio or TV, I meet so many people who

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all have the same story. They were raised in this

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religion of love and empathy, they were religious, and then

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they saw it seemingly hijacked. I mean, in the seventies

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and eighties, you know these Fallwells and Pat Robertson's, these

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blow dry televangelists, and these these segregationists. I mean, Fallow

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is a literal segregationist who supported a bartide and opened

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to whites only schools. I never knew that. As a kid,

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the guy just hailed as a Christian leader on my

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TV Christian Leader Jerry Folwell. I debated to the guy

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on Bill Maher in my twenties. I still didn't know

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he'd been a segregation It's when I met him. They

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didn't tell me this, and it's like, this is what

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passes for Christianity, and so, yeah, so many people are

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leaving the church, but they ain't leaving because of Jesus.

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They ain't leaving because of God. They ain't leaving because

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of Noah's Arkur Santa Claus. They're leading because of the

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meanness and cruelties and hypocrisies of organized religion. And so, yeah,

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you're right, But I don't think you necessarily need to

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have a church to have a very rich, full spiritual life.

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Maybe for a while your church is working on a

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homeless shelter or a suit kitchen, if you're city church,

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and if your church isn't preaching love your enemies, but

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keeps telling you who your enemies are, you're not really

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in a church.

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Speaker 2: Man, John, somebody once had and actually they asked me

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all the time, why do I work at a grocery store.

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Here's this radio guy of forty six years, but he's

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got a part time job at a grocery store. And

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I will tell them that is my church, that is

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my community. I am going there to be with every person,

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every age group, poor, rich, I don't care.

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Speaker 1: It's my church and to be of service to them,

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which is what the religion was about. But the right

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wing Christianity has never been about service. It's always been

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about power. It's always been about domination. That's why they

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defended slavery, that's why they defended segregation, and all throughout history,

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and I go into this in the book. Every time

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authoritarian Christianity has done something cruel, it's always been the

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christ followers who pushed back and the Crusades and the

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Christians were slaughtering Jews and Muslims. The christ follower like

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Saint Francis Assisi who renounced war when Columbus was slaughtering

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the Taino people in Hispanola. It was the Catholic priest

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on his boat, Bartolomeo de las casas first act of

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protest by a white person against Columbus's mutilation and rape

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and murder of the indigenous peoples Christianity propped up slavery,

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and Jesus followers like Frederick Douglas and the Quakers and

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Harriet Tubman pushed back Christianity propped up segregation, and Doctor

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King used scripture to shame white America out of this

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American apartheid. We've all seen how many of us have

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talked so many parents and grandparents out of so much

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homophobia in the last thirty years. So I do believe

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that progress is possible. I do believe people want to

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be good and our hearts can open, and I do

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believe the teachings of Jesus. You know, look, if you're

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at a Rolling Stoness cover band and you advertise that

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you're a Rolling Stones cover band, but you never do

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any Rolling Stone songs, You just do nickel Back and

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Vanilla Ice, maybe it's time to find a new name

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for your group. And if you're boasting of your Christian

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piety but you're fighting against everything, you're voting against, legislating

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against everything in the Beatitudes, everything in Matthew twenty five,

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I ask Trump supporters every night on Sirius XM, give

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me one teaching of Christ that he fights for. Yeah,

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that's about these people. Don't know the Bible, and the

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authoritarians are counting on you not knowing the Bible. And

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that's why all this homophobia that's against Jesus, that's why

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it's flourished. That's why they got two generations of Christians

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to vote against everything Christ ever talked about by talking

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about abortion, which Christ never talked about.

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Speaker 2: So I don't want to step on anybody's toes. And

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if you don't want to go here, please just tell me.

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But see, I was totally unknown of this guy by

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the name of Charlie Kirk. And but yet, I mean,

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you know, and all I've heard is God, God, God, God, God, God, God.

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And I'm going, okay. If he's God, God, God, God,

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why have I never known about Charlie Kirk?

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Speaker 1: Because right when, Christianity is not about the teachings of Jesus,

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it is about power and cultural domination. And mister Kirk,

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who I had my own dealings with, was very well

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compensated to normalize white supremacy to college students and people

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in their twenties. I ask, anyone, tell me what teaching

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of Jesus. Turning Point USA fights for. Where's their work

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on fighting poverty, Where's their work on opposing the death penalty.

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Where where's their work on helping the sick and getting

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care to the sec Where is their work on welcoming

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the stranger?

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Speaker 2: Again?

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Speaker 1: All of this and they call it Marxism. So you know,

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if you're going to stand in our house and claim

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that you represent Jesus, you got a first Amendment right

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to twist Jesus' words. We got a first Amendment right

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to call you out for it. Turning point today was

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not about the values of Christ. You don't get rich

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doing that. You don't get a big luxury megachurch fighting

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for the poor.

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Speaker 2: This is how you know.

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Speaker 1: Are you part of Christianity or are you part of

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Jesus movement? Are you part of this movement for power?

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So you know, God bless mister Kirk. What happened was

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an atrocity, yes, But I mean if they wanted abortions

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to stop, they'd fight for birth control, they'd fight for

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sex set in the schools. They use the issue for power.

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Jesus commands us to welcome the stranger. God in the

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Old Testament commands us to treat the alien as one

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of our own. I ask all the time I was

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on with Scott Jennings on CNN. I said, why should

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I listen to you and Donald Trump and reject Jesus

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and God. You don't need to believe in all the Bible,

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it's literal fact to use it against these frauds and

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Charlatan's who are taking a move based on love and

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empathy and using it to justify cruelty.

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Speaker 2: Please do not move. We'll be right back with comedian

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author John Fugal saying the name of his book, Separation

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of Church and Hate. We are back with comedian and

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author John Fugal saying, I gotta tell you where and

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I've seen it as a weakness, but I also see

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this strength and sharing a conversation with you is that

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when things do happen in the reality of our today,

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the first thing I do is I go, oh, I

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know where that is in the book. I know. I'm

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going to the book to find out what they did

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in the Bible. And because it's like I need to

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understand where we are in this present place of now.

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Speaker 1: Same here. Yeah every day. By the way, just building

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up what you just said, I'm so sorry, but like

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like in all cases, right, because you know, we got

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a whole couple generations of people that think, I hate

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the gays, and I put up a tree in my

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house once a year, and I think the government should

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force pregnant citizens to be pregnant against their will. None

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of that has anything to do with Jesus. But for millions,

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that's been enough. You're voting for the Donald Trump agenda,

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and you think that that's somehow of Jesus. The rest

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of us have a right to ask you how to

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prove that? Where? Yeah, because he didn't get to be

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president by promising to do the things Christ taught. When

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did Donald Trump ever promise to do what Jesus said. No,

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he promised to put conservative Christians on top. He promised

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them earthly power. He played up the persecution narrative that

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you're the majority, you white Christians, but you're under siege. Oh,

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you're so under siege, you you majority population, and they

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ate it up because he wasn't asking about the inconvenient

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Jesus commands of picking up across and working for the

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least fortunate. He was saying, you're better. And that's the

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essence of fundamentalism, not believing they're better than you, believing

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God thinks they're better than you.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. We're in a position now where we all

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think that if I show up on Sunday, then I'm

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good and clean, I'm good. And when people don't realize

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that it's an activation of every day and you know,

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you talk about the things that you have done in life.

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I keep my Christmas tree up every single day because

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I believe Christmas is every day. But I'll bet you

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there are people out there if they saw my Christmas

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tree lit up, they would be so offended and go

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against me.

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Speaker 1: Well, I used to keep my Christmas tree up all

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year long, too, but that was because of sloth. But

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you know, look, I think it's the same thing. Keep

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it in our heart. But even at Christmas, right, it's

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this whole war on Christmas nonsense, like like why shouldn't

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we say happy Holidays? If you're a Christian, you want

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to extend goodwill to everybody, including those outside of your tribe.

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Happy Holidays is more Christian than Merry Christmas. But they

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don't care about extending love to people outside your group.

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They care about conservative Christian domination and culture. So you

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have to say Merry Christmas to appease my club. It's like,

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why do you hate capitalism. I mean, it's better for

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business to be nice to all consumers, not just a

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Christian kind. But again, it's all about control, that's it.

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That's why it's brittle, That's why it's unmanly, That's why

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it's not of Jesus. And that's why so many young

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people are saying so long, so.

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Speaker 2: Do you do anything to test the waters? And what

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I may meet when I'm mean by that is that

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when I give somebody their money back at the grocery store,

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the first thing that I'll say afterwards is I'll go, hey,

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if I don't see you, merry Christmas and they and

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that to me is testing the waters to find out

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where they are nice.

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Speaker 1: But see, you're you're testing the waters because you care.

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I do, and you're testing the waters, not imposing your

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boat on the pond.

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Speaker 2: How did you research for this book? Because I mean,

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I love the way that you dive into these stories.

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Is it all personal experience or or are you like me?

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And it's like, you know, research is like I'm addicted

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to it. I can't get enough research in my life.

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Speaker 1: It's both. I mean, I've always been into researching the

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Bible heavily. Yes, when I stopped really kissing the ring.

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I mean I was. I was a very loyal, obedient

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Catholic all through college and then I went to school

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in Greenwich Village. I had the cool church that accepted

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gay couples in the eighties and nineties. But when I

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when I stopped kissing the ring as it were. I

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still consider myself Catholic, that's my asexual orientation. But I

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got a lot deeper into theology and into what Jesus

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actually said versus what his unauthorized fan clubs believe he said.

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And I came to realize that for many of us,

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this Jesus is three things, the Manger, the miracles, and

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the Cross, not the three years he spent teaching and

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preaching and instructing us what we'd have to do to

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earn the label of Christian nation. The teachings of Jesus

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are to me what the book's all about. I mean,

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there's plenty of Nazis who didn't follow the teachings of Jesus,

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but they preached how much they loved him. Are they

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in heaven? I don't know, not for me to say,

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but the actual teachings of Jesus are still very threatening

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to the loudest, most obnoxious Christians out there. And I

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wrote this book for anybody again, atheist or believer, if

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you have to live with one of these people or

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work with one of these people, the people who have

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weaponized this Bible for cruelty and meanness. This book is

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going to show you how to talk to him and

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how to get them to agree on a few basic

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things and how whatever they're saying, they're generally against this

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brown skinned carpenter that they wave around as a.

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Speaker 2: My awareness meter is on overload right now only because

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of what's happened with Stephen Colbert as well as Jimmy Kimmel,

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because I believe that if they truly are going to

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try to silence those that are on Late Night, they're

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going to come after my pastor, Stephen Ferdick, because the

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man likes to really dive into that book. And the

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thing is is that, you know, will they eventually jump

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into the churches say we don't do that now that

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we've changed, and so should you.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, but they're also sloppy. I mean, look how they

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went after Kimmel, this whole business rending car All these

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guys are amateurs. You know, it would have been so

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easy for them to take Kimmel off the air. He

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gets like twelve percent with the demo, right, It would

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have been so easy to just say, Jimmy, we got

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to cut the budget, like wait six months, wait a year,

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and do it behind the scenes. But these guys are thirsty.

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They want to wave around a scalp. They want power.

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They're all auditioning for man Baby to think that they're

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the meanest little henchman. So Car goes on and pretty

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much spills the beans and abuses his power, announces this

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is going to be government coerce self censorship. They seem

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to think that the majority population is the same people

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that cheer for them in their rallies. Because this was

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never going to happen, I said last week, I'm sure

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they're not going to fire Kimmell permanently because Bob Iger

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has a better sense of history. Bob Biger doesn't want

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censorship in the first paragraph of his obituary. But these

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right wing guys, they care about right now, pleasing mister Trump. Power, power, power.

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I've never seen a group of men less concerned with

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what the history books will say about him. It's shocking.

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Speaker 2: See, I'm not afraid of the current president. It's those

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that shall follow.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well, we'll see. I'm waiting on a gigantic, incredible

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decency and intelligence backlash from gen z Niels. I think

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we're going to have a real desire for America to

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be the good guys again, because the only thing that's

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going to save this country is love for America, but

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also love from America. And I think a smart Democratic

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politician could sell this message. I don't know why this

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party is so terrified of talking about scripture, but it

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seems to many that the Democratic Party has just given

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up on the Bible, like they've given up on the

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flag and patriotism. And I mean, you're crazy, Like the

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Bible's not against abortion, and for forty five years that's

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been their issue. They have used this one thing that

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Jesus never talked about to get Christians to vote against

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the stuff Jesus really did talk about. And I got

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tired of waiting for Democrats or the media to ever

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ask the right follow up questions. So I wrote this

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book for everybody because I grew up so deep in

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this and it's been my passion my whole life. I've

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been having I was debating Jerry Folwell and David Duke

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on Bill Maher in my twenties and I debate these

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folks every night on Serious XM. I know their arguments,

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I know where they're coming from. I know they haven't

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actually read most of the Bible. And so this war's

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not going to be won by politicians to struggle against

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violent Christian extremism. It's not going to be won by

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the media asking tough questions. It's going to be won

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by all of us over dinner tables and in workplaces,

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in schools and stressing what's in the book, and stressing

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love and not being a douchebag and pretending it's Christian.

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Speaker 2: I love where your heart is. Man it up, keep

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it up, and keep making noise. Dude. You got to

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come back to this show anytime in the future atime. Dude,

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anytime you'll have me.

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Speaker 1: My par officer says, I can come back.

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Speaker 2: So it will. You be brilliant today.

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Speaker 1: Okay, thank you so much, you too, Thanks for having

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me and letting me drag your show down to my level.

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Speaker 2: We shut off with my guy