WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.080 --> 00:00:06.839 The Team House with your hopes. Jack Murphy and David Park. 2 00:00:11.240 --> 00:00:14.519 Hello, everyone, welcome to episode one hundred and twenty three 3 00:00:14.519 --> 00:00:15.240 of The Team House. 4 00:00:15.279 --> 00:00:18.239 I'm Jack Murphy here with David Park. Tonight. 5 00:00:18.280 --> 00:00:21.399 Our guest on the show is Ryan Fuquet, who served 6 00:00:21.440 --> 00:00:25.280 as an Army Apache Attack helicopter pilot and then transitioned 7 00:00:25.320 --> 00:00:29.280 over and became a CIA operations officer. Ryan today is 8 00:00:29.320 --> 00:00:33.520 also the host of Combat Story, which is another channel 9 00:00:33.560 --> 00:00:36.159 on the youtubess that you can go and find. And 10 00:00:36.359 --> 00:00:38.079 if you watch The Team House and you like it, 11 00:00:38.119 --> 00:00:40.000 you should really go and check it out right away 12 00:00:40.079 --> 00:00:43.000 because I can guarantee you that if you found something 13 00:00:43.000 --> 00:00:45.520 here you like, that you'll find something on Ryan's channel 14 00:00:45.679 --> 00:00:49.079 that you'll like. Actually, there's an episode that I'm Ryan 15 00:00:49.119 --> 00:00:51.880 interviews me on and soon there's going to be an 16 00:00:51.880 --> 00:00:54.439 episode where tomorrow tomorrow. 17 00:00:54.600 --> 00:01:00.159 Yeah, so all your dreams have come true. 18 00:01:00.439 --> 00:01:03.600 So yeah, go check it out, and we're gonna, you know, 19 00:01:03.679 --> 00:01:05.799 put Ryan on the other end of the microphone this 20 00:01:05.879 --> 00:01:09.799 time around and hammer him with our questions. All right, Ryan, 21 00:01:10.200 --> 00:01:12.000 back to you. You know what I'm going to ask 22 00:01:12.040 --> 00:01:15.159 you right now? Tell us about your origin story, where 23 00:01:15.200 --> 00:01:17.640 you grew up, what your upbringing was like, and how 24 00:01:17.640 --> 00:01:19.799 that sort of set you up on a path that 25 00:01:19.959 --> 00:01:21.079 brought you into the army. 26 00:01:22.079 --> 00:01:22.799 Yeah, sure thing. 27 00:01:22.959 --> 00:01:25.799 I We'll just say I appreciated how David very casually 28 00:01:25.920 --> 00:01:27.480 just tied a knot there, like it was no big 29 00:01:27.519 --> 00:01:28.319 deal with the growth. 30 00:01:28.480 --> 00:01:29.439 So very cool. 31 00:01:29.519 --> 00:01:30.840 These are a lot of that was a lot of 32 00:01:30.840 --> 00:01:33.719 gear that pilots just never had to touch or worry about. 33 00:01:33.760 --> 00:01:36.120 So that was cool to see for me. I grew 34 00:01:36.200 --> 00:01:40.439 up kind of weird overseas. I spent my childhood in 35 00:01:40.560 --> 00:01:44.879 Zimbabwe and Africa. I was in Pakistan during the First 36 00:01:44.879 --> 00:01:47.959 Golf War. We got evacuated out and brought back afterwards. 37 00:01:48.840 --> 00:01:51.920 I was born in Belgium, so I lived the first 38 00:01:52.040 --> 00:01:54.280 thirteen years of my life overseas. 39 00:01:54.519 --> 00:01:56.840 So were your folks spies or missionaries? 40 00:01:56.840 --> 00:01:57.560 Are gypsies? 41 00:01:58.560 --> 00:02:01.079 They were legit State Department? 42 00:02:01.480 --> 00:02:04.120 Really? I like how you say that? 43 00:02:04.239 --> 00:02:07.879 Yeah, yeah, it was the first person I checked out 44 00:02:07.879 --> 00:02:09.680 when I got into the agency, when I got the 45 00:02:09.719 --> 00:02:12.039 CIA to see if my dad was actually in and 46 00:02:12.080 --> 00:02:14.680 have been lying to me all this time and he's 47 00:02:14.719 --> 00:02:15.680 a legit state. 48 00:02:15.960 --> 00:02:19.280 Yeah, so did he did he look down on you? 49 00:02:19.360 --> 00:02:22.000 For no? No? 50 00:02:22.000 --> 00:02:25.960 No, he interestingly he had some really good friends over 51 00:02:25.960 --> 00:02:28.840 the years who who ended up being pretty high up 52 00:02:28.879 --> 00:02:31.000 at the agency. You just get to be close with 53 00:02:31.120 --> 00:02:35.400 folks in the State Department. When you're at the agency, 54 00:02:35.400 --> 00:02:38.120 you're in the same communities in these places where there 55 00:02:38.120 --> 00:02:40.159 aren't a lot of Americans, so you get pretty tight. 56 00:02:40.240 --> 00:02:43.639 And he had a few of those and my dad. Look, honestly, 57 00:02:43.680 --> 00:02:46.240 there's a lot of stereotypes for State Department folks is 58 00:02:46.759 --> 00:02:52.000 kind of pencil pushers, they're the policy wonks. But my 59 00:02:52.120 --> 00:02:54.639 dad flew Hughey's in Vietnam, so he was He was 60 00:02:54.639 --> 00:02:57.719 a combat guy from the start, and his true calling 61 00:02:57.840 --> 00:03:00.520 was the State Department. He loves to say he was 62 00:03:00.560 --> 00:03:02.919 a terrible pilot, although I will say he has a 63 00:03:02.919 --> 00:03:05.560 silver Star and a DFC, which is no joke. 64 00:03:05.759 --> 00:03:06.120 Wow. 65 00:03:06.879 --> 00:03:10.120 But he really found his call in with the State Department, 66 00:03:10.479 --> 00:03:12.759 and he had I think when he would go and 67 00:03:13.080 --> 00:03:16.800 work with different military commands and just with the agency, 68 00:03:16.800 --> 00:03:19.280 I think they had a lot of appreciation for the 69 00:03:19.280 --> 00:03:21.719 time he spent in uniform. Of course, right, I think 70 00:03:21.879 --> 00:03:23.199 as you as you might expect. 71 00:03:23.319 --> 00:03:25.759 Sure when you were growing up like that. 72 00:03:26.039 --> 00:03:28.960 I mean, obviously, the the environment that we're in is 73 00:03:29.039 --> 00:03:31.439 normal to us, but did you did you realize that, 74 00:03:31.560 --> 00:03:35.879 like your upbringing was different than many than most Americans. 75 00:03:37.479 --> 00:03:39.919 I did a little bit, because we'd go back every 76 00:03:40.039 --> 00:03:42.960 two years, maybe for a month over the summer, and 77 00:03:43.039 --> 00:03:45.159 so that that would be like my taste of what 78 00:03:45.240 --> 00:03:48.319 America was. And I had no idea. I was literally 79 00:03:48.360 --> 00:03:52.240 in Africa, like in the middle of southern Africa, running 80 00:03:52.280 --> 00:03:58.800 around with no shoes, very few Americans there, So that 81 00:03:59.240 --> 00:04:02.039 was what I knew. Occasionally, like a Nintendo game would 82 00:04:02.080 --> 00:04:05.039 just drop in when somebody came to visit. But we 83 00:04:05.199 --> 00:04:07.120 go back to the States and like I'd go to 84 00:04:07.159 --> 00:04:09.199 a ball game in Chicago, like I'd go watch the 85 00:04:09.199 --> 00:04:12.599 Cubs play, or we'd run around northern Virginia seeing friends 86 00:04:12.599 --> 00:04:15.840 and family, And that was my exposure to the US 87 00:04:15.960 --> 00:04:18.759 and how different it was where I was grown up, 88 00:04:18.800 --> 00:04:21.759 in particular the Third World, right, and I know you 89 00:04:21.800 --> 00:04:26.199 guys know it better than anybody, the stark contrast of 90 00:04:26.240 --> 00:04:29.240 the Third World to the true first world problems we 91 00:04:29.360 --> 00:04:31.959 deal with here in the US. And so I certainly 92 00:04:32.480 --> 00:04:35.160 like I recognized some of those early on, but it 93 00:04:35.240 --> 00:04:38.079 certainly wasn't until I came back for high school and 94 00:04:38.120 --> 00:04:41.040 we moved to Tampa, Florida for my dad's last role 95 00:04:41.040 --> 00:04:45.519 at CENTCOM, and that's where I really noticed how different 96 00:04:45.600 --> 00:04:47.480 my upbringing was compared to everyone else. 97 00:04:47.519 --> 00:04:49.240 And how was that for you? I mean, did you 98 00:04:49.279 --> 00:04:51.000 have a hard time fitting in? Did you just? 99 00:04:54.279 --> 00:04:54.759 I didn't. 100 00:04:56.040 --> 00:04:58.360 I didn't really, But I think it's because of sports, 101 00:04:58.519 --> 00:05:01.439 you know. I think sports can be a huge equalizer 102 00:05:01.480 --> 00:05:05.560 for people, whether it's you know, because you're on a team, 103 00:05:05.680 --> 00:05:07.720 or you just understand how to do something. And I 104 00:05:07.720 --> 00:05:11.079 had never played American sports, but I grew up playing rugby, 105 00:05:11.160 --> 00:05:14.480 and I swam and tennis and squash and all these 106 00:05:14.519 --> 00:05:16.720 other sports. So I had good coordination and I came 107 00:05:16.759 --> 00:05:19.439 in and I started playing football, I ran track, and 108 00:05:19.519 --> 00:05:22.000 so I immediately had this group of friends and was 109 00:05:22.040 --> 00:05:23.839 accepted because I was pretty good, you know, I was 110 00:05:23.879 --> 00:05:27.000 all right at it. Yeah, so I didn't that wasn't 111 00:05:27.000 --> 00:05:30.279 that hard. But I will say, like academically, it was 112 00:05:30.959 --> 00:05:33.160 much easier coming back to the US from these like 113 00:05:33.240 --> 00:05:37.439 international schools. So you know, I started out in basic 114 00:05:37.480 --> 00:05:39.560 classes and then kind of worked my way up to 115 00:05:40.519 --> 00:05:44.000 the honors programs and trying to find my way. But 116 00:05:44.079 --> 00:05:46.120 early on I was able to get in because of sports. 117 00:05:46.199 --> 00:05:50.439 And then culturally, like, did you when you would hear 118 00:05:50.439 --> 00:05:54.519 people talking about first four problems, as you said, did 119 00:05:54.600 --> 00:05:56.120 you have sort of an opinion of that or did 120 00:05:56.160 --> 00:05:57.680 you kind of adapt to that pretty quickly? 121 00:05:58.600 --> 00:05:59.879 I think I adapted quickly. 122 00:06:00.120 --> 00:06:03.279 And I will say this became really helpful when I 123 00:06:03.360 --> 00:06:05.839 was at the CIA, like trying to assimilate in and 124 00:06:05.879 --> 00:06:08.399 being liked and other people liking you and that sort 125 00:06:08.439 --> 00:06:10.480 of thing. Like, I think I just picked it up 126 00:06:10.519 --> 00:06:12.879 from moving around, especially coming back to the US and 127 00:06:12.920 --> 00:06:16.480 trying to make friends. So I tried not to dwell 128 00:06:16.519 --> 00:06:19.759 on that. I think the disparity between first and third 129 00:06:19.800 --> 00:06:22.839 world problems, and I think the frustration a lot of 130 00:06:22.959 --> 00:06:25.519 us might have when you've seen what it's really like 131 00:06:25.560 --> 00:06:29.000 in these other places came a lot later, maybe coming 132 00:06:29.040 --> 00:06:32.000 out of the military and getting into corporate America and 133 00:06:32.000 --> 00:06:32.720 then the Agency. 134 00:06:33.000 --> 00:06:36.360 Okay, so I'm sensing that you are a pretty worldly 135 00:06:36.439 --> 00:06:39.879 dude as a young man, and your dad being a 136 00:06:40.000 --> 00:06:45.120 Vietnam veteran and helicopter pilot. Am I wrong and sensing 137 00:06:45.160 --> 00:06:47.839 that this was sort of the aspirations building within you 138 00:06:47.959 --> 00:06:51.600 that sort of took you on that route. 139 00:06:51.759 --> 00:06:52.560 You were not wrong. 140 00:06:52.759 --> 00:06:56.000 I you know, my dad would keep he'd have his 141 00:06:56.160 --> 00:06:58.839 like little a little case with his couple of his 142 00:06:58.879 --> 00:07:00.879 medals in it, just off to the side. He wasn't 143 00:07:00.920 --> 00:07:04.000 ever showing it off or anything, but you know, i'd 144 00:07:04.040 --> 00:07:05.800 see it. I remember seeing it when I was young 145 00:07:06.000 --> 00:07:08.800 in Africa and we'd drive around back in the States 146 00:07:08.800 --> 00:07:10.319 when we were back home, and I'd ask him to 147 00:07:10.319 --> 00:07:13.079 tell me, like, what was Vietnam like? And he would 148 00:07:13.079 --> 00:07:16.360 tell me these stories about flying into hot LZ's just 149 00:07:16.399 --> 00:07:19.040 like you see and we were soldiers, Like it's exactly 150 00:07:19.279 --> 00:07:22.199 the way he described it was how you read about 151 00:07:22.199 --> 00:07:25.560 it and see it in that movie. So yeah, like 152 00:07:25.759 --> 00:07:28.519 I kind of had that growing up. I had two 153 00:07:28.600 --> 00:07:31.079 older brothers who ended up going into the military. One 154 00:07:31.680 --> 00:07:34.759 flew kaiwas the other was an armor officer. So I 155 00:07:34.800 --> 00:07:36.680 think it was a pretty clear path for me that 156 00:07:36.680 --> 00:07:39.120 that's what I was going to go do coming out 157 00:07:39.120 --> 00:07:41.319 of high school at least and getting into college. 158 00:07:42.279 --> 00:07:42.519 Cool. 159 00:07:42.519 --> 00:07:44.240 So what was that like, did you go in and 160 00:07:44.360 --> 00:07:46.279 listed or you go went in as an officer? 161 00:07:47.160 --> 00:07:50.279 Yeah, so I went so my dad was an officer 162 00:07:50.600 --> 00:07:52.920 for whatever reason, that was the route I took going in. 163 00:07:52.959 --> 00:07:55.160 Both of my older brothers were So I did r 164 00:07:55.160 --> 00:07:58.360 OTC at Georgetown to kind of get my foot in. 165 00:07:58.439 --> 00:08:01.959 They paid for school, thank god, because that place is expensive. 166 00:08:02.959 --> 00:08:06.040 I did ROTC there. I played football there, so I 167 00:08:06.079 --> 00:08:07.839 was busy as hell during college. 168 00:08:08.160 --> 00:08:08.920 But it was good. You know. 169 00:08:08.959 --> 00:08:10.759 It was another group of guys that I got to meet, 170 00:08:10.959 --> 00:08:13.040 a whole new set of folks, both on the ROTC 171 00:08:13.240 --> 00:08:16.639 side and on the football side. And that was the 172 00:08:16.639 --> 00:08:21.600 first time, truthfully, I was exposed to NCOs or like 173 00:08:21.639 --> 00:08:27.360 the NCOs that were running our ROTC program and and 174 00:08:27.439 --> 00:08:30.000 impressing honess like how important it is to listen to 175 00:08:30.040 --> 00:08:34.399 an NCO, and like giving us the non college side 176 00:08:34.480 --> 00:08:36.480 of that experience and what we were getting ready to 177 00:08:36.519 --> 00:08:36.879 go into. 178 00:08:37.519 --> 00:08:39.720 How did the NCOs treat you? I mean, did they 179 00:08:39.759 --> 00:08:43.080 treat you like recruits? Did they treat you like future officers? 180 00:08:44.320 --> 00:08:47.320 They treated us way too way too well, like, way 181 00:08:47.360 --> 00:08:50.080 too nicely. You know, like I'm sure it's really tough. 182 00:08:50.120 --> 00:08:52.480 You got an eighteen year old kid with nothing but 183 00:08:53.000 --> 00:08:55.399 tons of opportunity, and these guys would come out of 184 00:08:55.600 --> 00:08:57.559 you know, this was just pre nine to eleven, so 185 00:08:58.000 --> 00:08:59.720 there wasn't a lot of fighting, but you know, they've 186 00:08:59.759 --> 00:09:02.399 had a tough life being in the military and moving 187 00:09:02.639 --> 00:09:05.559 and putting up with young lieutenants and here they are 188 00:09:05.600 --> 00:09:08.679 faced with like this is the origin story of these 189 00:09:08.799 --> 00:09:11.159 dumbass lieutenants I had to deal with for so long, 190 00:09:12.000 --> 00:09:15.080 And so actually they were really kind and you could 191 00:09:15.080 --> 00:09:17.240 tell they were just trying to impart as much knowledge 192 00:09:17.279 --> 00:09:19.679 on you before you left as you could, Like great 193 00:09:19.679 --> 00:09:22.159 example for me. You know, you compete when you're in 194 00:09:22.320 --> 00:09:25.039 ROTC to get to these some of the courses over 195 00:09:25.080 --> 00:09:29.519 the summer, airborne aerosault dive, whatever. And you know, I 196 00:09:29.559 --> 00:09:31.759 worked hard to get into aerosoult school. I went to 197 00:09:31.840 --> 00:09:36.320 that and I still remember this guy, a staff sergeant Roper. 198 00:09:37.039 --> 00:09:41.720 He went through my packing list like every single item, 199 00:09:41.759 --> 00:09:43.279 and he came out of the one hundred and first 200 00:09:43.279 --> 00:09:45.919 and you guys know like the home of the ari 201 00:09:45.919 --> 00:09:49.240 assault folks, and no kidding, like you stand there on 202 00:09:49.360 --> 00:09:51.639 day one that you get all your gear out. You're 203 00:09:51.679 --> 00:09:53.879 in these long lines and they just go through your 204 00:09:53.879 --> 00:09:56.240 packing lists and they're checking for everything, and guys get 205 00:09:56.320 --> 00:09:59.240 dropped because they don't have it. And I just remember thinking, 206 00:09:59.320 --> 00:10:01.840 like how ucky was I that this guy was there 207 00:10:01.879 --> 00:10:03.600 looking out for me at that time and a lot 208 00:10:03.600 --> 00:10:05.320 of these guys just didn't have that right. 209 00:10:06.159 --> 00:10:09.000 Was there a was there a reason you went offscer 210 00:10:09.120 --> 00:10:11.759 instead of warrant And was there more risk that you 211 00:10:11.799 --> 00:10:14.279 wouldn't become a helicopter pilot as an officer. 212 00:10:16.000 --> 00:10:19.440 Yeah, so I never considered warrant. I just didn't know 213 00:10:19.480 --> 00:10:21.480 about it. It just didn't come up with my dad, 214 00:10:21.559 --> 00:10:22.960 you know, at all, even though he was in the 215 00:10:23.000 --> 00:10:25.000 aviation community. He was only in there for a few 216 00:10:25.080 --> 00:10:30.360 years in Vietnam. But I was more set on, like 217 00:10:30.519 --> 00:10:33.240 literally to the night before I had to choose what 218 00:10:33.360 --> 00:10:34.200 branch I wanted. 219 00:10:34.519 --> 00:10:36.240 I ended up picking aviation, but it was. 220 00:10:36.200 --> 00:10:39.720 Down to that in the infantry, okay, and I very easily. 221 00:10:40.960 --> 00:10:42.679 It's one of the reasons I love doing the show, 222 00:10:43.080 --> 00:10:45.000 like talking to you guys who've been on the ground, 223 00:10:45.039 --> 00:10:47.159 because that could have been me in a lot of cases. 224 00:10:47.720 --> 00:10:49.720 And I think back on that night a lot when 225 00:10:49.759 --> 00:10:51.279 I made this decision, all right, I'm going to go 226 00:10:51.320 --> 00:10:54.240 the aviation route, and I think back on it because 227 00:10:54.799 --> 00:10:57.000 I have a bit of regret, but I would have 228 00:10:57.080 --> 00:10:58.159 regretted it either way. 229 00:10:58.200 --> 00:10:59.480 You know, my dad flew. 230 00:11:00.480 --> 00:11:02.279 I can connect with him on a level I never 231 00:11:02.360 --> 00:11:05.440 could had I not been in the cockpit flying. Same 232 00:11:05.480 --> 00:11:09.440 with my brother. But I have so much respect for 233 00:11:09.559 --> 00:11:11.720 dudes on the ground running around who we were covering 234 00:11:11.799 --> 00:11:14.080 when I was up in the air and thinking like 235 00:11:14.120 --> 00:11:16.279 that could have been me down there. So that was 236 00:11:16.320 --> 00:11:20.360 the reason I went the the officer route. Was I 237 00:11:20.440 --> 00:11:22.480 was going to go either of those. The warrant officer 238 00:11:22.519 --> 00:11:24.120 track just never came into play for me. 239 00:11:24.720 --> 00:11:27.279 So where were you when nine to eleven happened? 240 00:11:28.559 --> 00:11:31.200 I was in Georgetown, So I was in DC when 241 00:11:31.279 --> 00:11:37.840 it happened, and we had a because I played football, 242 00:11:37.879 --> 00:11:40.799 we had early morning like workouts and game review and 243 00:11:41.159 --> 00:11:45.120 like from the previous season and that season, and I 244 00:11:45.159 --> 00:11:48.200 had just come back from that and my room with 245 00:11:48.240 --> 00:11:50.759 three other guys on the football team, so I was 246 00:11:50.799 --> 00:11:54.480 a senior at the time, and they they did not 247 00:11:54.519 --> 00:11:56.679 do r ATC. So I was often the dude like 248 00:11:56.720 --> 00:11:58.759 coming home as they were, you know, I was going 249 00:11:58.759 --> 00:12:00.080 out the door to do pts. 250 00:12:00.120 --> 00:12:01.399 They were coming back from the bars. 251 00:12:02.200 --> 00:12:05.000 And so to see them up this early watching TV, 252 00:12:05.080 --> 00:12:07.639 I knew something was going on. So we sat down 253 00:12:07.679 --> 00:12:09.519 and we were watching it. And then later that day 254 00:12:09.559 --> 00:12:11.759 we all had mop heads because that's kind of people 255 00:12:11.799 --> 00:12:13.960 we were. We drove down so we could see the 256 00:12:14.000 --> 00:12:18.200 smoke coming off the Pentagon later that day and Jack 257 00:12:18.240 --> 00:12:20.639 I can't remember if you and I were talking about this, 258 00:12:20.799 --> 00:12:24.759 but I remember in the months after that or the 259 00:12:24.759 --> 00:12:27.919 weeks after that, and months like every dad read the 260 00:12:28.000 --> 00:12:32.519 Washington Post about these SF guys riding on horseback out 261 00:12:32.519 --> 00:12:35.879 in Afghanistan and how cool I thought that was, and 262 00:12:35.960 --> 00:12:39.120 just trying to follow that as as closely as I could, 263 00:12:40.000 --> 00:12:42.639 you know, with the Internet being what it was at 264 00:12:42.639 --> 00:12:42.960 the time. 265 00:12:43.840 --> 00:12:44.720 Yeah. 266 00:12:44.840 --> 00:12:48.519 Yes, And now you get your shot to go into 267 00:12:48.559 --> 00:12:53.360 the military. As you said, you choose aviation over infantry. 268 00:12:54.759 --> 00:12:56.320 What was it like you tell us a little bit 269 00:12:56.360 --> 00:12:58.799 about the kind of like training process to become an 270 00:12:58.799 --> 00:12:59.720 Apache pilot. 271 00:13:00.840 --> 00:13:03.200 Yeah, I know, you guys have had another at least 272 00:13:03.240 --> 00:13:07.759 one age guy on here. I mean I went, I 273 00:13:07.759 --> 00:13:10.840 commissioned in the summer of two and I was I 274 00:13:10.919 --> 00:13:13.919 asked everybody on my show, almost everybody about this. But 275 00:13:14.000 --> 00:13:17.440 like for me, the amount of fomo or whatever you 276 00:13:17.519 --> 00:13:20.519 want to call it, Like the the absolute fear I 277 00:13:20.600 --> 00:13:23.240 had that I was going to miss the war was staggering. 278 00:13:23.440 --> 00:13:23.679 Yeah. 279 00:13:24.039 --> 00:13:27.799 Yeah, I mean flight school is like a year long 280 00:13:27.919 --> 00:13:30.480 plus that's just kind of for your basic work and 281 00:13:30.480 --> 00:13:32.399 then you got to go and do your advanced aircraft 282 00:13:32.480 --> 00:13:35.600 and patches take longer so I was like, oh my god, 283 00:13:35.600 --> 00:13:37.799 I'm going to be here forever, this war is going 284 00:13:37.840 --> 00:13:39.159 to be over. I'm going to be the only dude 285 00:13:39.159 --> 00:13:42.120 without a combat patch. And obviously now you look back 286 00:13:42.159 --> 00:13:44.759 and it's completely naive to have thought that that was 287 00:13:44.799 --> 00:13:47.960 the case. But at the time you just don't want 288 00:13:47.960 --> 00:13:50.120 to be that guy, right coming out without one. 289 00:13:50.320 --> 00:13:53.639 Yeah, and based on you know, the first goal for 290 00:13:54.120 --> 00:13:56.320 there was no exactly I think that it wasn't going 291 00:13:56.360 --> 00:13:58.080 to be like a quick in and out, you. 292 00:13:58.000 --> 00:14:01.320 Know, exactly exactly. So for us, like we got we 293 00:14:01.399 --> 00:14:04.600 go to Fort Rutger. Sorry David, go ahead, please, Now 294 00:14:04.720 --> 00:14:06.320 I was going to say, we go to Fort Rutger, 295 00:14:07.000 --> 00:14:09.840 and you know, it's it's in the middle of nowhere 296 00:14:09.840 --> 00:14:13.799 in Alabama. You got all these students coming in and 297 00:14:14.000 --> 00:14:17.000 we had to wait probably four months, maybe three months 298 00:14:17.039 --> 00:14:19.720 to start our training. There was like a backlog of 299 00:14:19.759 --> 00:14:22.639 pilots going through the course, and so we just sat 300 00:14:22.679 --> 00:14:24.879 there and did almost nothing all day for three months. 301 00:14:24.879 --> 00:14:29.519 And I was petrified about just waiting any longer. Like 302 00:14:29.559 --> 00:14:31.200 I looked up, could I go to the CIA? 303 00:14:31.399 --> 00:14:34.120 Now? What can I go do to get my ass 304 00:14:34.200 --> 00:14:36.279 into this war? Somehow? 305 00:14:36.799 --> 00:14:39.360 But I stuck around and I got put into a class. 306 00:14:39.399 --> 00:14:41.759 You're in a flight school class of about thirty guys 307 00:14:41.759 --> 00:14:46.080 and girls, and I was one of two ROTC guys. 308 00:14:46.279 --> 00:14:49.279 So it was me and twenty eight west Pointers and 309 00:14:49.519 --> 00:14:51.639 it was like the twenty eight west Pointers who have 310 00:14:51.720 --> 00:14:55.120 finished one through twenty eight in their order of merit going, 311 00:14:55.799 --> 00:14:58.279 you know, coming out of school that year, they all 312 00:14:58.320 --> 00:14:59.840 get to pick like when they want to start cl 313 00:15:00.399 --> 00:15:02.840 and this is like the most time you could have 314 00:15:03.039 --> 00:15:05.480 off to start was this, So like the people who 315 00:15:05.519 --> 00:15:08.159 ranked highest took the most time off in the summer 316 00:15:08.200 --> 00:15:10.759 and then started course with me. So I was in 317 00:15:10.759 --> 00:15:12.799 there with all these West Point dudes. And I'm good 318 00:15:12.799 --> 00:15:15.320 friends with a lot of these guys now, but you're 319 00:15:15.360 --> 00:15:19.120 with them every day for a year, and every single 320 00:15:19.360 --> 00:15:23.320 day is an evaluation, like you're taking a classroom test 321 00:15:23.399 --> 00:15:26.279 or in the aircraft fly in. You know, there's no 322 00:15:26.399 --> 00:15:28.440 a pluses. It's either you did this right or you 323 00:15:28.480 --> 00:15:32.039 sucked at it. And you're just constantly evaluated over time 324 00:15:32.080 --> 00:15:35.559 in these different flight skills. And everybody's competing for an 325 00:15:35.559 --> 00:15:38.720 airframe in the end, So some people really want to 326 00:15:38.720 --> 00:15:42.639 go and flash knooks, blackhawks whatever. We had Kaiwa's and apaches, 327 00:15:43.399 --> 00:15:46.840 but there are very few gunships that are given out, 328 00:15:46.919 --> 00:15:50.000 so it's pretty it's pretty competitive to get a slot 329 00:15:50.799 --> 00:15:53.200 for the for the attack helicopters. 330 00:15:53.480 --> 00:15:54.919 Do you so I was gone in for that. 331 00:15:55.320 --> 00:15:59.279 Do you fly every airframe while you're in the class. 332 00:16:00.440 --> 00:16:00.519 No. 333 00:16:00.679 --> 00:16:03.840 They start you out flying a civilian version of a Kiowa, 334 00:16:04.159 --> 00:16:08.039 so it's a Bell Jet ranger unless you're like six 335 00:16:08.080 --> 00:16:11.159 foot five or taller, which my roommate there was, and 336 00:16:11.200 --> 00:16:14.080 they fly Huey's, which is hilarious, Like nobody else gets 337 00:16:14.080 --> 00:16:16.159 in a Hueie. It's pretty cool to see these things 338 00:16:16.159 --> 00:16:19.279 still flying around. So he was out flying Huey's while 339 00:16:19.279 --> 00:16:24.159 I was in this little jet bell aircraft. And then 340 00:16:24.519 --> 00:16:26.960 that's just for like making sure that you're safe in 341 00:16:27.000 --> 00:16:30.519 the aircraft flying around you solo in that, you learn 342 00:16:30.559 --> 00:16:32.919 to hover in that, and then when you start doing 343 00:16:33.000 --> 00:16:37.679 like low level navigation routes that sort of thing, they 344 00:16:37.720 --> 00:16:41.039 transition you into an older version of the Kiowa and 345 00:16:41.080 --> 00:16:44.039 then you're in that through the end, and then at 346 00:16:44.039 --> 00:16:47.240 the end you go and pick your final airframe and 347 00:16:46.639 --> 00:16:49.279 then then you go to a separate course just for that. 348 00:16:50.159 --> 00:16:51.440 How'd that work out for you? 349 00:16:51.480 --> 00:16:53.679 Did you have to like score it a certain percentile 350 00:16:53.759 --> 00:16:55.720 to because you said it was very competitive to get 351 00:16:55.759 --> 00:16:56.559 onto a gunship. 352 00:16:57.679 --> 00:17:00.519 Yeah, so they everything just like the military. 353 00:17:00.519 --> 00:17:03.600 There's you know, an OML that's running around all the time, 354 00:17:03.960 --> 00:17:07.880 classroom flights, you're you know, all the grades that you get, 355 00:17:08.839 --> 00:17:10.680 and then there's a little bit of physical but since 356 00:17:10.680 --> 00:17:12.799 we're pilots, we don't we don't wait it too heavily, 357 00:17:12.920 --> 00:17:15.160 you know, like we're not too worried about the fitness 358 00:17:15.200 --> 00:17:18.039 side of things. But yeah, so there's the order of 359 00:17:18.079 --> 00:17:22.799 merit and by the end of it, we got two 360 00:17:22.880 --> 00:17:25.160 apaches in our class and they went one and two 361 00:17:25.319 --> 00:17:27.480 and the third aircraft was a Kiowa and the rest 362 00:17:27.480 --> 00:17:28.799 were Chinooks and Blackhawks. 363 00:17:28.839 --> 00:17:29.400 Wow wow. 364 00:17:29.440 --> 00:17:33.160 So it was no kidding. It's like everybody in a room. Hey, 365 00:17:33.599 --> 00:17:35.920 number one student is so and so what do you want? 366 00:17:36.000 --> 00:17:38.200 All right, Apache's okay, it comes off the list and 367 00:17:38.559 --> 00:17:41.680 it's just like that for thirty people. So it's it's 368 00:17:41.759 --> 00:17:44.680 nerve wracking day of But there's a lot of like 369 00:17:44.880 --> 00:17:48.279 there's there are personalities for aircraft, and I don't know 370 00:17:48.279 --> 00:17:52.880 if people outside the flight community understand that, but like 371 00:17:52.920 --> 00:17:55.400 people who fly chnooks tend to be like the pretty 372 00:17:55.480 --> 00:17:59.240 laid back chill. You know, they don't mind sleeping with 373 00:17:59.279 --> 00:18:01.680 the roof over there head if they got to hang 374 00:18:01.720 --> 00:18:03.839 out in the back for a while. They're cool haveing 375 00:18:03.880 --> 00:18:06.839 other people watch them fly, whereas in the APACHE, like 376 00:18:06.960 --> 00:18:10.200 you got a copilot, that's it. There's no crew chief 377 00:18:10.720 --> 00:18:14.519 watching you screw up. So everybody. Every airframe has its 378 00:18:14.519 --> 00:18:16.920 own personality. So you do have some folks who really 379 00:18:16.960 --> 00:18:19.000 want to get these lift aircraft. But for us it 380 00:18:19.079 --> 00:18:22.960 was like the first three were attack and recon ryan. 381 00:18:23.119 --> 00:18:25.799 Actually, for the people who might not be super familiar 382 00:18:25.799 --> 00:18:28.599 with military airframes, can you give us a rundown on 383 00:18:28.640 --> 00:18:29.880 the choices you guys had? 384 00:18:31.160 --> 00:18:34.279 Yeah, we had five, you're right, you know, so we 385 00:18:34.319 --> 00:18:38.559 had five different aircraft, so apaches, right, so just two seat, 386 00:18:39.160 --> 00:18:43.920 two engine gunships. Then there were kaiwas which single engine, 387 00:18:44.640 --> 00:18:48.519 no doors, kind of cool little reconnaissance aircraft. And then 388 00:18:48.559 --> 00:18:52.720 you've got Blackhawks, so that that also includes your METAVAC. 389 00:18:52.799 --> 00:18:55.480 But the classes we were in it was just strictly 390 00:18:55.519 --> 00:18:57.880 like you were going to a conventional unit to fly 391 00:18:57.960 --> 00:19:00.720 black Hawks, not for METAVAC. And then Chooks, so you 392 00:19:00.759 --> 00:19:06.559 got your dual rotor big old lift aircraft carrying thirty 393 00:19:06.599 --> 00:19:10.400 guys and then we also had one spot for a 394 00:19:10.440 --> 00:19:14.359 fixed wing to go and fly VIPs. And to me 395 00:19:15.039 --> 00:19:17.279 it was like, why would you want to go do that? 396 00:19:17.400 --> 00:19:18.960 Like if you wanted to do that, why not go 397 00:19:19.000 --> 00:19:21.480 to the Air Force. But there was one guy you 398 00:19:21.559 --> 00:19:24.119 got it. It was a perfect fit for him and 399 00:19:24.160 --> 00:19:25.440 it made a lot of sense. You could go and 400 00:19:25.480 --> 00:19:30.920 fly some almost like some intel work vip flight. He 401 00:19:30.960 --> 00:19:34.240 had a great career doing that. But those were our aircraft. 402 00:19:34.279 --> 00:19:37.160 And now there's a they've retired, I think the kiawah 403 00:19:37.160 --> 00:19:39.119 and they have a Lakota in there I believe it 404 00:19:39.160 --> 00:19:45.160 is now. So then you get actually, hey Jack, sorry, 405 00:19:45.160 --> 00:19:47.960 this might be interesting at the time. So this is 406 00:19:48.079 --> 00:19:49.880 just after nine to eleven kicked off. This is probably 407 00:19:49.920 --> 00:19:53.839 still the same today. One sixtieth, which you guys worked 408 00:19:53.839 --> 00:19:56.319 with for sure, like the cream of the crop for 409 00:19:56.359 --> 00:19:57.440 the aviation community. 410 00:19:57.480 --> 00:19:59.680 They would come around and they would pull one or two. 411 00:19:59.519 --> 00:20:02.039 Guys or girls out of well guys at the time, 412 00:20:02.160 --> 00:20:04.759 out of flight school, like right out of flight school 413 00:20:04.759 --> 00:20:07.480 into one sixtieth. It was rare, but you could do it, 414 00:20:07.880 --> 00:20:10.279 but you'd have to go fly schnooks and I shouldn't 415 00:20:10.319 --> 00:20:12.680 say it, like you have to go fly right if 416 00:20:12.720 --> 00:20:15.599 you had aspirations to go in and flying little bird guns, 417 00:20:15.640 --> 00:20:18.160 which is if you're flying guns at all, that's the 418 00:20:18.200 --> 00:20:20.960 only thing you'd ever want to go fly, then you 419 00:20:21.039 --> 00:20:23.519 got to go and do your time in conventional units. 420 00:20:23.799 --> 00:20:24.920 But they were pulling a. 421 00:20:24.880 --> 00:20:27.359 Couple people every now and then out of flight school, 422 00:20:27.359 --> 00:20:29.880 so that was something you also had to weigh, like, hey, 423 00:20:29.920 --> 00:20:32.039 do I want to give up this gun slot to 424 00:20:32.079 --> 00:20:34.599 go and fly in one sixtieth which would be amazing, 425 00:20:35.119 --> 00:20:38.480 But I'm going to be flying lift for my future basically. 426 00:20:38.640 --> 00:20:40.680 So that is one other wrinkle that they threw in at. 427 00:20:40.559 --> 00:20:42.599 The end, because once you get on an airframe, they 428 00:20:42.680 --> 00:20:44.720 kind of like keep you on it, right, Like, how 429 00:20:45.759 --> 00:20:46.559 how does that work? 430 00:20:46.599 --> 00:20:48.599 Like with the little bird pilots do they come out of? 431 00:20:48.640 --> 00:20:51.799 Like were they former conventional black HALWK pilots? What's that 432 00:20:51.839 --> 00:20:52.720 normal trajectory? 433 00:20:53.000 --> 00:20:54.599 Like? Yeah, So. 434 00:20:56.200 --> 00:20:59.000 As you can imagine, just like in your guys career paths, 435 00:20:59.079 --> 00:21:00.720 you're with these folks, you end up going to the 436 00:21:00.759 --> 00:21:03.039 elite units just like you both did, and so you 437 00:21:03.119 --> 00:21:07.720 end up knowing these people. So I ended up with 438 00:21:07.759 --> 00:21:09.279 a couple of guys who I knew who went into 439 00:21:09.279 --> 00:21:15.039 one sixtieth and typically like the gun side of one 440 00:21:15.119 --> 00:21:19.119 sixtieth is looking for people who had flown Apaches, and 441 00:21:19.279 --> 00:21:22.839 Kyle was like, who had experience pulling the trigger for 442 00:21:22.960 --> 00:21:25.319 the guns? Like I think you could. You could be 443 00:21:25.319 --> 00:21:27.519 in a Pache pilot and fly a little bird where 444 00:21:27.519 --> 00:21:32.920 you're infilling somebody, you know, the the MH version, right, Yeah, 445 00:21:33.200 --> 00:21:37.160 the MH version. I think they would also take Blackhawk 446 00:21:37.160 --> 00:21:39.839 and Chinook guys. But I think it's pretty competitive when 447 00:21:39.839 --> 00:21:41.839 you're trying to get into one of those gun slots 448 00:21:41.880 --> 00:21:45.440 that you come from a gun community beforehand, So you. 449 00:21:45.440 --> 00:21:48.759 Hit your Apache training, what was that like leor into 450 00:21:49.039 --> 00:21:52.799 you know, now you're getting into like learning your dream job, right, Yeah. 451 00:21:52.960 --> 00:21:58.359 No, it's funny because the the pressure that you put 452 00:21:58.359 --> 00:22:00.680 on yourself or the pressure that's put on you kind 453 00:22:00.720 --> 00:22:02.599 of changes when you come out of like you're no 454 00:22:02.640 --> 00:22:06.480 longer competing for the slot. That's all done, and now 455 00:22:06.519 --> 00:22:09.319 you're just like now it's real in terms of I 456 00:22:09.359 --> 00:22:12.880 got to make myself the best pilot I can before 457 00:22:13.000 --> 00:22:15.440 I get to my unit, because I need to be 458 00:22:15.480 --> 00:22:17.680 safe and I need to once I hit that unit, 459 00:22:17.720 --> 00:22:20.440 I got to be progressing through this ladder that we 460 00:22:20.519 --> 00:22:23.240 have in aviation. So you can kind of stand out 461 00:22:23.319 --> 00:22:26.440 and get to the jobs you want. So as we're 462 00:22:26.480 --> 00:22:28.880 getting into training, it's more like I had a guy 463 00:22:28.880 --> 00:22:30.440 who had just come out of the war zone, like 464 00:22:30.480 --> 00:22:32.920 he was in right in the evasion of Iraq, like 465 00:22:33.319 --> 00:22:34.759 he had combat experience. 466 00:22:34.799 --> 00:22:36.279 It was great learning from him. 467 00:22:36.680 --> 00:22:38.759 So it was really like, how much can I soak 468 00:22:38.839 --> 00:22:41.240 up from this guy in this very short period of 469 00:22:41.240 --> 00:22:44.039 time before I get out the door. And it's actually 470 00:22:44.079 --> 00:22:47.640 like in the basic part of flight school there are 471 00:22:47.680 --> 00:22:49.720 thirty students, but here there might have been a class 472 00:22:49.720 --> 00:22:52.519 of six. It's really small and more intimate as you're 473 00:22:52.519 --> 00:22:56.000 going through it. And one of the things that you know, 474 00:22:56.000 --> 00:22:58.440 if you guys have heard somebody talk about flying the bag, 475 00:22:58.480 --> 00:23:01.400 it's kind of an interesting story. It only happens in 476 00:23:01.440 --> 00:23:04.000 the Apache community. It's how they train you to fly 477 00:23:04.440 --> 00:23:06.160 looking out of just one eye. Have you guys heard 478 00:23:06.200 --> 00:23:11.160 of this yet? So this I think it. You just 479 00:23:11.200 --> 00:23:13.119 don't hear about it unless you come out of this community. 480 00:23:13.160 --> 00:23:14.960 But it's a really tough part of flight school. That's 481 00:23:15.039 --> 00:23:17.920 kind of interesting. So in the Apache you got this 482 00:23:17.960 --> 00:23:20.680 thing on the front. It's your flear. We call it 483 00:23:20.680 --> 00:23:24.880 the forward looking Infra red. So it's all thermal sights. 484 00:23:25.599 --> 00:23:27.680 And the only way you can see at night in 485 00:23:27.680 --> 00:23:30.960 the APACHE if you're not wearing MVGS is through your monocle. 486 00:23:31.119 --> 00:23:33.400 So it's like this little glass eyepiece that you wear, 487 00:23:33.480 --> 00:23:38.559 but it projects an image of thermal signatures in your 488 00:23:38.559 --> 00:23:41.279 eye and this tiny little optic in front of your 489 00:23:41.799 --> 00:23:46.960 right eye. And you have to train yourself because as 490 00:23:47.000 --> 00:23:51.160 you look through that monocle, you're looking at something that's 491 00:23:51.279 --> 00:23:53.519 right here, but your other eye is looking out into 492 00:23:53.519 --> 00:23:55.400 the distance, and so you got to be able to 493 00:23:55.400 --> 00:23:58.039 look inside the cockpit with your other eye and out 494 00:23:58.119 --> 00:24:01.480 and look for other aircraft and obstacle, antaid shots and stuff. 495 00:24:02.200 --> 00:24:05.200 So to learn how to fly like that takes several 496 00:24:05.279 --> 00:24:07.799 hours for you to overcome the sickness that comes with 497 00:24:07.839 --> 00:24:10.519 it because it's so disorienting. So they call it the 498 00:24:10.559 --> 00:24:13.759 bag where they put this tarp over the cockpit so 499 00:24:13.839 --> 00:24:17.599 you can't see out. So the dude flying behind you, 500 00:24:17.599 --> 00:24:19.240 you're up in the front seat of the Apache. The 501 00:24:19.240 --> 00:24:22.839 guy flying behind you, who's the instructor pilot, he can 502 00:24:23.000 --> 00:24:25.000 I think he can see out, or he's using the 503 00:24:25.000 --> 00:24:27.640 fleer as well because he's experienced with it. And then 504 00:24:27.799 --> 00:24:30.359 you have no way to look outside the cockpit. You're 505 00:24:30.400 --> 00:24:32.839 one hundred percent flying with just what you can see 506 00:24:32.880 --> 00:24:35.519 in this little eyepiece, and it a lot of guys 507 00:24:35.599 --> 00:24:37.720 end up puking going through this part of it, and 508 00:24:37.720 --> 00:24:41.839 it's super disorienting, and it's one of the other ego 509 00:24:41.920 --> 00:24:44.559 crushing parts of flight school that you go through on 510 00:24:44.599 --> 00:24:45.519 the APACHE track. 511 00:24:45.720 --> 00:24:50.640 Yeah, so what's that like? Having an instructor in like 512 00:24:50.799 --> 00:24:55.960 behind you and I don't, like, I don't even know 513 00:24:56.079 --> 00:24:59.359 an APACHE does does like your your copilot can't? 514 00:24:59.440 --> 00:25:02.559 Do they have control? Can they take control in a 515 00:25:02.599 --> 00:25:03.480 normal APACHE? 516 00:25:03.519 --> 00:25:06.000 And then with an instructor, do they have like like 517 00:25:06.039 --> 00:25:08.359 a driving instructor like the brakes and stuff like that. 518 00:25:09.160 --> 00:25:12.400 Yeah, So the the APACHE that we use in flight 519 00:25:12.440 --> 00:25:13.920 school is the same one that we use in the 520 00:25:13.920 --> 00:25:17.759 regular part, okay, And so you can do everything from 521 00:25:17.799 --> 00:25:20.759 both seats. Okay, So you could fire technically, you could 522 00:25:20.799 --> 00:25:23.200 fire a hell fire missile from the back seat, although 523 00:25:23.240 --> 00:25:25.319 it's super rare because of the way you do it, 524 00:25:25.759 --> 00:25:29.559 but you could. So they have all the controls necessary 525 00:25:29.720 --> 00:25:32.160 for when you inevitably screw up that they can control 526 00:25:32.200 --> 00:25:34.920 it and bring you back down to the ground safely. 527 00:25:35.480 --> 00:25:37.559 But a couple of the things with it. We like 528 00:25:37.599 --> 00:25:41.279 to joke with Blackhawks and Chinook's and Kaiwa's that we 529 00:25:41.359 --> 00:25:44.119 sit front to back so that you can't hold hands 530 00:25:44.119 --> 00:25:46.720 with the other pilot, right, so you would you wouldn't 531 00:25:46.759 --> 00:25:48.359 like fly with us because you can't hold the hand 532 00:25:48.359 --> 00:25:50.279 of your co pilot, you know. So we'll give them, 533 00:25:50.559 --> 00:25:53.200 we'll haze them a little bit with that. But there 534 00:25:53.240 --> 00:25:56.480 is a there's like a glass shield between you. And 535 00:25:56.519 --> 00:25:58.240 the only reason I bring that up between the two 536 00:25:58.240 --> 00:26:00.519 pilots front to back is in the Cobra they didn't 537 00:26:00.559 --> 00:26:03.519 have that. So almost every guy I ever talked to 538 00:26:03.559 --> 00:26:07.079 who flew Cobras would say that the instructor pilot in 539 00:26:07.119 --> 00:26:09.880 the back seat would like dump their ash tray on 540 00:26:09.920 --> 00:26:11.640 you in the front if you screwed up, or they 541 00:26:11.759 --> 00:26:14.200 do something to yell at you through there, and you 542 00:26:14.200 --> 00:26:16.000 couldn't do that in the Apache because you had a 543 00:26:16.000 --> 00:26:18.279 blast shield in between the two cockpits. 544 00:26:18.839 --> 00:26:22.039 The best fascinating what did your dad? Did your dad 545 00:26:22.079 --> 00:26:24.119 fly Cobra? I forgot what your dad flew me. 546 00:26:24.279 --> 00:26:28.480 Just Huie's Huey slicks, so no armament, no guns. 547 00:26:28.599 --> 00:26:30.640 What did he think of you like flying an Apache? 548 00:26:30.640 --> 00:26:33.000 Did he? I thought he? 549 00:26:33.200 --> 00:26:34.720 You know, I think he found it pretty cool that 550 00:26:34.759 --> 00:26:36.839 I was going down this path. And when I was 551 00:26:36.880 --> 00:26:40.279 in flight school, I went to one of his reunions. 552 00:26:40.319 --> 00:26:42.920 He goes to your reunion every year with these pilots 553 00:26:42.960 --> 00:26:46.480 that he was with in Vietnam. It's awesome, and they 554 00:26:46.480 --> 00:26:49.319 were all telling stories about how he used to fly 555 00:26:49.559 --> 00:26:52.400 and some of the ops they were on. So I 556 00:26:52.440 --> 00:26:54.920 think it to him he didn't really care what I 557 00:26:55.000 --> 00:26:56.920 was flying, you know, that didn't really matter to him. 558 00:26:56.960 --> 00:26:59.319 He just I think he thought it was interesting that 559 00:26:59.319 --> 00:27:03.039 we both flew. And it truly wasn't until I came 560 00:27:03.119 --> 00:27:06.799 back from Afghanistan that we had some no shit discussions 561 00:27:06.799 --> 00:27:11.480 on like it was kind of like my baptism by fire, 562 00:27:11.720 --> 00:27:14.799 and then we started talking real about some of these events. 563 00:27:15.240 --> 00:27:17.920 That's amazing. And how long was the APACHE training. 564 00:27:19.480 --> 00:27:23.079 It's probably four to five probably four months, four to 565 00:27:23.160 --> 00:27:25.920 five months, I would say once once you come out 566 00:27:25.920 --> 00:27:28.319 of basic, yeah, you go through that Apache pipeline, and 567 00:27:28.359 --> 00:27:31.480 actually I went through. I flew there. We called it 568 00:27:31.480 --> 00:27:34.279 the Alpha model, so it's like the older model Apache 569 00:27:34.279 --> 00:27:37.440 that they used early golf for not early golf, early 570 00:27:37.880 --> 00:27:41.079 in Iraq and Afghanistan, and they had just transitioned to 571 00:27:41.119 --> 00:27:43.720 this thing called the Delta model at the time, So 572 00:27:43.839 --> 00:27:46.000 I did the the alpha and then had to do 573 00:27:46.160 --> 00:27:48.519 the secondary course for the Delta, which suck because it 574 00:27:48.599 --> 00:27:52.119 kep me there longer. But this thing gave us a 575 00:27:52.160 --> 00:27:55.920 whole host of different capabilities, but one critical one was 576 00:27:56.640 --> 00:28:00.319 the optics were way better, so we could see bad 577 00:28:00.319 --> 00:28:04.079 guys miles out now where before they could hear us, 578 00:28:04.200 --> 00:28:07.559 which was not the case years earlier. So that was 579 00:28:07.599 --> 00:28:09.960 a huge advantage by the time we got to Afghanistan. 580 00:28:10.240 --> 00:28:12.640 Can you give us a brief rundown on the armament 581 00:28:12.759 --> 00:28:15.480 that the Age sixty four can carry, because it is 582 00:28:15.480 --> 00:28:20.480 pretty impressive the amount of uh hate, Yeah, yeah, it's awesome. Yeah, 583 00:28:20.519 --> 00:28:21.400 I bring some hate, man. 584 00:28:21.480 --> 00:28:22.039 Yeah. 585 00:28:22.200 --> 00:28:25.319 So so this on the small end, it's got thirty 586 00:28:25.359 --> 00:28:27.920 mili rounds, which are like, you know, six or seven 587 00:28:27.960 --> 00:28:28.440 inches long. 588 00:28:28.480 --> 00:28:29.079 They're the bullets. 589 00:28:29.119 --> 00:28:31.519 They're like the small armament you carry, and you usually 590 00:28:31.599 --> 00:28:33.880 have about three hundred of those. And you got this 591 00:28:34.039 --> 00:28:37.039 cannon that sits down just below where the front seater 592 00:28:37.160 --> 00:28:42.559 sits that is running these things through And I mean 593 00:28:42.599 --> 00:28:44.519 when that thing fires, you can kind of feel it 594 00:28:44.839 --> 00:28:46.279 underneath your butt as you're flying. 595 00:28:46.319 --> 00:28:48.480 It's a cool sound. And you kind of smell it. 596 00:28:48.480 --> 00:28:49.039 It's awesome. 597 00:28:49.680 --> 00:28:52.200 And then it's also got these two point seventy five 598 00:28:52.240 --> 00:28:55.799 inch rockets, right, so I think I've heard you guys 599 00:28:55.799 --> 00:28:58.119 talk about them before, like coming from an A ten, 600 00:28:58.200 --> 00:29:01.839 which is pretty badass, but they have a different sets 601 00:29:01.839 --> 00:29:06.400 of warheads on them. We would carry like some white phosphorus, 602 00:29:06.559 --> 00:29:11.079 some more explosive type rounds with those rockets, and we 603 00:29:11.200 --> 00:29:15.720 usually carried we carry about a pot of God, I'm 604 00:29:15.720 --> 00:29:18.039 sure an instructive pilot's going to hit me somewhere, but 605 00:29:18.160 --> 00:29:20.160 probably like twelve of those we'd have on board, but 606 00:29:20.200 --> 00:29:22.799 because of weight, we just couldn't carry that much. And 607 00:29:22.839 --> 00:29:26.680 then we'd have two to three hell fire missiles, which 608 00:29:26.720 --> 00:29:30.799 are like five foot tall, bad ass missiles that have 609 00:29:30.880 --> 00:29:34.720 their own internal computer system. So this is kind of 610 00:29:34.759 --> 00:29:36.960 like fire and forget. So you're lasing the target, you 611 00:29:37.039 --> 00:29:38.839 fire it. That thing is going and it's going to 612 00:29:38.920 --> 00:29:42.200 hit that target. And you had different warheads that could 613 00:29:42.200 --> 00:29:45.359 go on that as well, for you know, thermobaric and 614 00:29:45.440 --> 00:29:49.319 high explosive type type work. And we carry maybe two 615 00:29:49.359 --> 00:29:52.200 of those three on a good day in Afghanistan. 616 00:29:52.480 --> 00:29:53.839 Yeah, and did they have to? 617 00:29:54.160 --> 00:29:57.240 I mean I assume that there were people who figured 618 00:29:57.240 --> 00:29:59.599 out all that because of the temperature and the altitude 619 00:29:59.640 --> 00:30:02.920 in Afghananastan where you were going, you know, the lift 620 00:30:02.920 --> 00:30:06.359 capability of helicopters, So would every time you load it 621 00:30:06.359 --> 00:30:07.480 out for a mission, did it have to be a 622 00:30:07.480 --> 00:30:10.480 different load out based on all those environmental factors? 623 00:30:12.319 --> 00:30:13.160 Pretty much? Yes. 624 00:30:13.279 --> 00:30:16.440 I mean, as you guys know very well, the difference 625 00:30:16.440 --> 00:30:19.400 in temperature in those places, whether it's Iraq or Afghanistan, 626 00:30:19.519 --> 00:30:22.039 you know, can be significant. So you know, we might 627 00:30:22.039 --> 00:30:24.599 be able to squeeze in a few more of those. 628 00:30:25.000 --> 00:30:26.960 But for the most part, it was a fairly consistent 629 00:30:27.039 --> 00:30:31.480 load and we had some extended fuel tanks, you know, 630 00:30:31.559 --> 00:30:33.119 just so we could spend a little more time up 631 00:30:33.119 --> 00:30:35.480 in the air. But yeah, for the most part, it 632 00:30:35.519 --> 00:30:38.640 was a consistent load set based on in Afghanistan, not 633 00:30:38.720 --> 00:30:41.440 just the heat, but the altitude, right sucks it out 634 00:30:41.480 --> 00:30:43.160 of these aircraft. 635 00:30:43.240 --> 00:30:45.279 Correct me if I'm wrong, Ryan, But I mean the 636 00:30:45.400 --> 00:30:47.720 Apache is designed to be like a tank killer, right, 637 00:30:47.759 --> 00:30:50.480 that was the initial conception behind it. Could you talk 638 00:30:50.519 --> 00:30:52.799 to us a little bit about what the Apache was 639 00:30:52.839 --> 00:30:54.480 designed for versus what. 640 00:30:54.319 --> 00:30:57.359 It ended up being used for during you know, your deployments. 641 00:30:58.119 --> 00:31:02.359 Yeah, and actually this like this brings up just a 642 00:31:02.559 --> 00:31:06.799 very important memory for me. So we were truly when 643 00:31:06.839 --> 00:31:09.319 I was in flight school and we went out and 644 00:31:09.359 --> 00:31:11.279 did our gunnery. So we go out to the range 645 00:31:11.279 --> 00:31:13.960 and actually shoot for the first time. We did it 646 00:31:14.039 --> 00:31:16.799 like we were Cold War apaches, which is how they 647 00:31:16.839 --> 00:31:19.880 were designed, exactly like you said, Jack, going out like 648 00:31:20.000 --> 00:31:22.920 you should go out as a battalion with eighteen to 649 00:31:22.960 --> 00:31:25.920 twenty four apaches at the same time on a line 650 00:31:26.000 --> 00:31:29.200 behind a tree line. Everybody at the same time pops up, 651 00:31:29.559 --> 00:31:32.200 but just enough so you could get like your radar 652 00:31:32.240 --> 00:31:37.920 above the tree line, scan ninety Russian tanks and all 653 00:31:38.000 --> 00:31:40.880 of you fire missiles because you pretty much only have 654 00:31:41.000 --> 00:31:44.359 sixteen missiles at these tanks and hit them all at 655 00:31:44.400 --> 00:31:47.119 the same time without ever exposing yourself. So you're out 656 00:31:47.160 --> 00:31:51.960 a hover pulling up, not exposing yourself, firing and leaving. 657 00:31:52.480 --> 00:31:58.039 That was the plan behind it so early in Iraq 658 00:31:58.160 --> 00:32:00.519 in two thousand and three, there's a significant in date 659 00:32:00.960 --> 00:32:04.480 March twenty third, two thousand and three in in Iraq 660 00:32:05.119 --> 00:32:08.559 when the Apache community was supposed to have this like 661 00:32:08.839 --> 00:32:11.680 it's got all this new armament on it. It goes out, 662 00:32:12.240 --> 00:32:15.079 it goes to a hover, and it hovered like this 663 00:32:15.160 --> 00:32:17.640 battalion goes out. Some of them crash on takeoff because 664 00:32:17.640 --> 00:32:21.720 they brown out. They're not used to the weight restrictions, 665 00:32:22.519 --> 00:32:24.920 and so some of them don't make it out. They 666 00:32:25.000 --> 00:32:28.799 get online, they're hovering right above enemy positions, they're getting 667 00:32:28.880 --> 00:32:32.319 shot up, they limp back the base. It's kind of 668 00:32:32.359 --> 00:32:35.000 like a black eye for the APACHE community early on 669 00:32:35.359 --> 00:32:38.000 in the war, which is not good. So they immediately 670 00:32:38.079 --> 00:32:41.920 start changing the tactics to what everybody has seen in 671 00:32:42.000 --> 00:32:45.720 Vietnam from Cobra's basically like moving while you shoot. 672 00:32:45.799 --> 00:32:46.960 But it's not normal. 673 00:32:47.200 --> 00:32:49.480 It's not how everybody has been trained for the past 674 00:32:49.559 --> 00:32:52.720 fifteen to twenty years in this airframe, So they didn't 675 00:32:52.720 --> 00:32:54.759 even train us on that. In two thousand and four, 676 00:32:54.880 --> 00:32:58.279 as I was coming out of the pipeline, when I 677 00:32:58.400 --> 00:33:00.720 went to Germany, which was my first year the assignment, 678 00:33:01.160 --> 00:33:04.400 our second gunnery run, we started doing these tactics. So 679 00:33:04.440 --> 00:33:08.039 we're shooting on the run and sounds easy, and after 680 00:33:08.079 --> 00:33:11.160 you get the hang of it, like it's easier, but 681 00:33:11.240 --> 00:33:14.160 when you're in like a ten to twenty degree dive, 682 00:33:14.920 --> 00:33:17.599 ten degrees doesn't sound like a lot, it's significant, like 683 00:33:17.920 --> 00:33:21.440 you're pulling g's it's it's a totally different experience than 684 00:33:21.480 --> 00:33:24.559 like pulling up to a hover when you're really low, popping. 685 00:33:24.279 --> 00:33:24.960 Up and shooting. 686 00:33:25.920 --> 00:33:28.559 So we would do these gunnery exercises out in at 687 00:33:28.559 --> 00:33:32.160 Grafenvier for those like tons of people here, but I'm 688 00:33:32.160 --> 00:33:34.319 sure you guys Paly spent time there one of the 689 00:33:34.319 --> 00:33:37.720 other training centers and anyway. 690 00:33:37.400 --> 00:33:38.599 Like we're out there, we're shooting. 691 00:33:39.640 --> 00:33:41.359 And actually it was the first time I had done 692 00:33:41.359 --> 00:33:44.480 gunnery as a piloting command. So you get to a unit, 693 00:33:44.480 --> 00:33:46.680 you're a nobody. You work your way up to when 694 00:33:46.720 --> 00:33:50.000 somebody says, okay, you're safe enough to put another human's 695 00:33:50.039 --> 00:33:52.279 life in your hands, you're a piloting command. 696 00:33:52.359 --> 00:33:53.559 So I was a PC. 697 00:33:53.799 --> 00:33:56.519 We call it for this this round of gunnery, and 698 00:33:56.559 --> 00:33:59.880 it's day and night shooting. And we went out at night, 699 00:34:00.160 --> 00:34:02.559 and I mean it was like white knuckle flying for me, 700 00:34:03.400 --> 00:34:07.400 just on flying at night, you know, flear this other 701 00:34:07.519 --> 00:34:10.559 human's life is in my hands. We're firing down range, 702 00:34:10.719 --> 00:34:14.599 like we just don't fire a lot. So we went 703 00:34:14.639 --> 00:34:16.800 through and did fine on our gunnery runs. But one 704 00:34:16.880 --> 00:34:20.159 of the knights, one of the air crews, so a 705 00:34:20.159 --> 00:34:24.199 CW three, a senior warrant officer and then a W two, 706 00:34:24.400 --> 00:34:26.679 a guy who had just made W two, both former 707 00:34:26.760 --> 00:34:30.960 rangers who had transitioned over to be pilots, which is 708 00:34:31.000 --> 00:34:33.880 not uncommon. They went in on a gun run, got 709 00:34:33.880 --> 00:34:37.039 fixated on a target and weren't able to pull up 710 00:34:37.079 --> 00:34:39.239 and flew straight into the ground. Oh my god, and 711 00:34:39.280 --> 00:34:43.119 so like just disintegrated. There's just nothing left after that 712 00:34:43.159 --> 00:34:47.559 type of crash. It's really bad. So that was, you know, 713 00:34:47.599 --> 00:34:49.880 I was a junior lieutenant at the time, and it 714 00:34:49.920 --> 00:34:53.039 was like a rude awakening of what can happen if you. 715 00:34:54.519 --> 00:34:55.480 If you don't. 716 00:34:55.320 --> 00:35:00.000 Appreciate how dangerous flying is. Like, and they were good 717 00:35:00.119 --> 00:35:02.760 pilots and they just got fixated on targets. 718 00:35:03.360 --> 00:35:04.760 Yeah, straight into the ground. 719 00:35:05.239 --> 00:35:08.800 Now, when when you're doing that type of the run, 720 00:35:09.400 --> 00:35:12.280 are you actually because I know, you know, helicopter can 721 00:35:12.320 --> 00:35:16.440 move in different several directions, are you actually like a plane, 722 00:35:16.519 --> 00:35:19.239 diving towards your target or are you angled and still 723 00:35:19.239 --> 00:35:19.960 moving forward? 724 00:35:20.840 --> 00:35:24.159 Yeah, you're diving down towards it like like a plane analogy, 725 00:35:24.199 --> 00:35:24.960 as you would have said. 726 00:35:25.039 --> 00:35:26.480 And you do that for several reasons. 727 00:35:26.480 --> 00:35:28.639 One is like, I mean, you get up to altitude 728 00:35:28.639 --> 00:35:31.760 and you come in quick, but you cut all your 729 00:35:31.840 --> 00:35:34.239 rotor wash that's coming down is going behind you, so 730 00:35:34.280 --> 00:35:37.280 it's not just you know, it's not distorting or disrupting 731 00:35:37.440 --> 00:35:40.719 the the munitions as they're coming off the aircraft, and 732 00:35:40.760 --> 00:35:42.960 it just gives you a better alignment with the wind 733 00:35:43.000 --> 00:35:46.559 as you're trying to take shots. So it serves several purposes, 734 00:35:46.920 --> 00:35:49.400 but it's necessary. So you've got to come in pretty hot. 735 00:35:49.960 --> 00:35:53.800 And target fixation is no joke. Yeah, every pilot's had 736 00:35:53.800 --> 00:35:54.360 to deal with it. 737 00:35:54.559 --> 00:35:56.440 Yeah, Ran, I want to ask you about, you know, 738 00:35:56.480 --> 00:35:59.760 getting deployed overseas and you know, not missing the war as. 739 00:35:59.679 --> 00:36:00.440 It turned out. 740 00:36:00.920 --> 00:36:03.840 Tell us about your first time getting to ployed overseas. Ryan, 741 00:36:03.840 --> 00:36:05.280 Where were you going? What was the mission? 742 00:36:06.519 --> 00:36:06.800 Yeah? 743 00:36:06.840 --> 00:36:10.239 So I was in Germany as my first assignment and 744 00:36:10.280 --> 00:36:12.679 the unit I got to had just redeployed from Iraq. 745 00:36:12.920 --> 00:36:17.079 So I was sitting there doing nothing and desperately wanted 746 00:36:17.079 --> 00:36:19.119 to go down range and it just wasn't. Our unit 747 00:36:19.199 --> 00:36:22.280 just didn't get tapped. So I went back to our 748 00:36:22.360 --> 00:36:25.000 career course. So instead of going to the aviation when 749 00:36:25.000 --> 00:36:26.000 I went to the infantry one. 750 00:36:26.199 --> 00:36:27.559 So that I was. 751 00:36:27.480 --> 00:36:32.159 Actually interesting seeing what guys like you do at Benning 752 00:36:32.320 --> 00:36:35.719 as you're running around on a regular morning, because it's 753 00:36:35.760 --> 00:36:37.840 sure as hell is not what pilots are doing at 754 00:36:37.840 --> 00:36:41.000 that time of day, right, We're not doing combatives by 755 00:36:41.079 --> 00:36:43.480 any means. So anyway, I went through that, but it 756 00:36:43.519 --> 00:36:44.880 was great because I got to meet a lot of 757 00:36:44.920 --> 00:36:48.199 guys who ended up being company commanders on the ground 758 00:36:48.360 --> 00:36:51.239 in Afghanistan when I was overhead flying, and it was 759 00:36:51.320 --> 00:36:54.199 awesome to know just to know them personally, but to 760 00:36:54.320 --> 00:36:59.039 understand how they're thinking through you know, breaching a target 761 00:36:58.400 --> 00:37:00.880 or their scheme and on the ground. 762 00:37:00.920 --> 00:37:02.800 So I found that really valuable. 763 00:37:02.840 --> 00:37:05.239 I went to Campbell and then we deployed to Afghanistan 764 00:37:05.320 --> 00:37:07.519 in just at the end of two thousand and seven, 765 00:37:07.559 --> 00:37:09.599 so I was there throughout two thousand and eight. 766 00:37:09.960 --> 00:37:12.239 Right just out of curiosity how does that work? 767 00:37:12.280 --> 00:37:14.840 Because you would think as a helicopter officer that you 768 00:37:14.880 --> 00:37:19.159 would go to a helicopter career course or whatever, like 769 00:37:19.239 --> 00:37:21.400 what's the difference in why did you get to go 770 00:37:21.440 --> 00:37:22.679 to the infantry career course? 771 00:37:23.920 --> 00:37:26.440 So they keep a couple slots at all of these 772 00:37:26.480 --> 00:37:30.360 career courses for other branches. So like, if there's anybody 773 00:37:30.400 --> 00:37:34.079 listening who's going that direction, I would highly recommend jumping 774 00:37:34.079 --> 00:37:37.239 out of your current branch to go try something else 775 00:37:38.000 --> 00:37:40.760 for the career course, just to learn from other folks. Now, 776 00:37:41.239 --> 00:37:45.400 at the Aviation career course, it's notorious for doing frisbee golf, 777 00:37:45.800 --> 00:37:49.400 like that is the exercise of choice there and ultimate frisbee, 778 00:37:49.679 --> 00:37:51.320 and that sure as hell was not what we were 779 00:37:51.360 --> 00:37:53.519 doing at betting. Like there was a whole set of 780 00:37:53.559 --> 00:37:55.559 guys who were going to SF and they were going 781 00:37:55.599 --> 00:37:58.000 to be team leaders. I was put with all the 782 00:37:58.039 --> 00:38:01.360 tankers and heavy met guys because I was an APACHE guy. 783 00:38:01.800 --> 00:38:02.840 So we played, we did. 784 00:38:02.880 --> 00:38:05.599 We played the SF dudes in ultimate frisbee one day 785 00:38:05.639 --> 00:38:08.679 and got annihilated. Like it's not even fair to put 786 00:38:08.719 --> 00:38:11.159 these guys with a bunch of tankers and heavy mech 787 00:38:11.239 --> 00:38:14.400 and pilots. But anyway, no, so it was really good. 788 00:38:14.800 --> 00:38:17.079 There were only a couple slots and there were marines there. 789 00:38:17.079 --> 00:38:20.079 A marine was the number one dude coming out of 790 00:38:20.239 --> 00:38:24.480 the Army Infantry Career Course, which I thought was amazing. 791 00:38:24.679 --> 00:38:27.400 But anyway, so it was good cross pollination, and you know, 792 00:38:27.400 --> 00:38:29.840 you just completely learned how they thought and operated. 793 00:38:30.159 --> 00:38:34.280 Yeah, did do you think that having gone to that 794 00:38:34.360 --> 00:38:38.320 it helped you when you did have your first combat tour. 795 00:38:39.000 --> 00:38:41.760 One hundred percent. Yeah. I thought it was huge. 796 00:38:42.719 --> 00:38:44.559 I mean truly, Like I was on the radio one 797 00:38:44.559 --> 00:38:46.280 time and a guy goes, hey, is that huge it 798 00:38:46.400 --> 00:38:48.280 is that you? And I was like, yeah, it's me man, 799 00:38:48.320 --> 00:38:49.880 and he you know, he told me who he was, 800 00:38:50.519 --> 00:38:52.880 and so we just had that connection. H or guys 801 00:38:52.880 --> 00:38:55.079 who I knew when they were in contact, Like it 802 00:38:55.119 --> 00:38:57.400 meant a lot to me to get overhead if there 803 00:38:57.400 --> 00:38:58.840 was a dude on the ground on you. Not like 804 00:38:58.880 --> 00:39:01.519 I wouldn't try if they or someone else, but there's 805 00:39:01.559 --> 00:39:05.920 this personal connection that you have. But also like there 806 00:39:05.960 --> 00:39:07.880 was like the worst event that we had and we 807 00:39:07.920 --> 00:39:10.079 can get to this later, but it was it was 808 00:39:10.119 --> 00:39:14.119 more of like a deliberate operation into a valley. And 809 00:39:14.400 --> 00:39:16.599 when we were doing the briefings and everything, I was 810 00:39:16.639 --> 00:39:18.440 a company commander, so we were kind of going through 811 00:39:18.440 --> 00:39:21.880 the briefing and as the as the ground battalion commander 812 00:39:21.920 --> 00:39:24.760 is briefing, I understood everything you was talking about. 813 00:39:24.760 --> 00:39:25.760 It all made sense. 814 00:39:26.280 --> 00:39:28.559 Why you want to put positions like we got a 815 00:39:28.559 --> 00:39:30.360 block here, we have to move here. 816 00:39:30.559 --> 00:39:30.760 You know. 817 00:39:31.199 --> 00:39:33.599 All of that made sense to me at that point 818 00:39:33.639 --> 00:39:36.679 in time, and it never would have from an aviation perspective. 819 00:39:36.719 --> 00:39:39.199 Yeah, well, let's start talking about this a lot. 820 00:39:39.239 --> 00:39:42.920 Any significant operations that you were involved in overseas as 821 00:39:42.920 --> 00:39:43.840 an Apache pilot. 822 00:39:43.880 --> 00:39:46.920 Yeah, how about your first combat, your first encounter? 823 00:39:47.079 --> 00:39:51.360 Yeah, so, Jack, I think when you and I were talking, 824 00:39:51.400 --> 00:39:53.039 you may have brought up one that I was in 825 00:39:53.079 --> 00:39:55.480 because I was at Salerno and you, I think you 826 00:39:55.639 --> 00:39:57.159 asked me, you were like, hey, were you there when 827 00:39:57.199 --> 00:40:00.559 the base got attacked? So anyway, so we could talk 828 00:40:00.559 --> 00:40:03.840 about that. That wasn't my first one, but my first one. 829 00:40:04.000 --> 00:40:05.800 And I asked everybody this as well, like what was 830 00:40:05.840 --> 00:40:08.159 your first time going outside the wire? And some people 831 00:40:08.199 --> 00:40:12.039 it's crazy, you know, violent, For me, it was not. 832 00:40:12.639 --> 00:40:15.800 I was just out on a day flight, daytime flight, 833 00:40:16.000 --> 00:40:20.639 going out to ship and there was some contact on 834 00:40:20.679 --> 00:40:22.400 the ground, but it was kind of in this area 835 00:40:22.440 --> 00:40:26.559 that had a bunch of compounds with pretty dense foliage 836 00:40:26.679 --> 00:40:28.119 inside compound walls. 837 00:40:28.679 --> 00:40:30.239 So the enemy had moved. 838 00:40:30.000 --> 00:40:32.920 Into that position like where we couldn't really see them 839 00:40:33.400 --> 00:40:35.320 and there was a ground unit moving on them, and 840 00:40:35.360 --> 00:40:38.440 so we covered them for a while before we had 841 00:40:38.480 --> 00:40:41.400 to break station and it just wasn't that kinetic, so 842 00:40:41.440 --> 00:40:44.119 we left. But I will say like that first time 843 00:40:44.159 --> 00:40:47.000 outside the wire, I thought, you know, in my mind, 844 00:40:47.039 --> 00:40:49.280 I'm thinking I'm going into like World War two here, 845 00:40:49.280 --> 00:40:52.719 because that's just that's my my feeling at the time, 846 00:40:52.840 --> 00:40:54.840 was thinking like, oh my god, what's going to happen. 847 00:40:54.880 --> 00:40:56.880 We're gonna be shooting off all of our rounds. We're 848 00:40:56.880 --> 00:40:58.320 going Winchester here in a minute. 849 00:40:58.320 --> 00:41:01.480 And it was like that, Yeah, and Winchester, for those 850 00:41:01.519 --> 00:41:04.599 of you don't know, is just going dry on AMMO. 851 00:41:04.719 --> 00:41:08.000 And I will just take a second to mention in 852 00:41:08.159 --> 00:41:11.079 the intro, the team house intro, there's a clip in 853 00:41:11.119 --> 00:41:13.920 there of an Apache doing a gun run. That's actually 854 00:41:14.000 --> 00:41:17.039 something I filmed in a rack of Apaches coming in 855 00:41:17.079 --> 00:41:19.679 and doing and doing gun runs to support a ranger 856 00:41:19.719 --> 00:41:22.320 operation and outside Missoul. 857 00:41:23.559 --> 00:41:24.280 That's awesome. 858 00:41:24.519 --> 00:41:27.199 No, And to your so as I just kind of 859 00:41:27.199 --> 00:41:30.079 alluded to. So, I was at Salerno and there was 860 00:41:30.320 --> 00:41:34.920 Chapman nearby, which everybody knows from. Unfortunately two thousand and nine, 861 00:41:35.039 --> 00:41:39.440 big attack there on some CIA folks, but they weren't 862 00:41:39.480 --> 00:41:43.480 too far apart. But in July of two thousand and eight, 863 00:41:43.559 --> 00:41:45.840 when I was at Salerno, I was on our QRF, 864 00:41:45.880 --> 00:41:47.599 so our quick reaction for US, So we had two 865 00:41:47.599 --> 00:41:49.840 aircraft at all times that were ready to launch and 866 00:41:49.880 --> 00:41:56.360 go help people throughout like five provinces and like pilots. 867 00:41:56.400 --> 00:41:58.960 So we're on a night cycle. So we wake up 868 00:41:59.039 --> 00:42:01.599 late at night, we go to the chow hall to 869 00:42:01.639 --> 00:42:06.679 eat midnight chow and it's four dudes sitting there. We're 870 00:42:06.719 --> 00:42:09.000 all eating way too much food. And then we get 871 00:42:09.000 --> 00:42:12.000 a call on the radio like, hey, bas is getting attacked. Everybody, 872 00:42:12.119 --> 00:42:15.000 you know, get to get to the aircraft. You do 873 00:42:15.079 --> 00:42:18.119 not want to see four pilots run, period, but certainly 874 00:42:18.119 --> 00:42:22.920 not after eating like eggs and bacon and all this stuff. 875 00:42:23.119 --> 00:42:26.519 So so we get in some gators, you know, we're driving. 876 00:42:26.559 --> 00:42:28.920 They're driving us out closer to the airfield before we 877 00:42:29.000 --> 00:42:32.119 start our our like two hundred meters sprint, you know, 878 00:42:32.119 --> 00:42:34.400 if we even made it in without having to stop. 879 00:42:34.920 --> 00:42:36.440 But this was the first time I had been this 880 00:42:36.679 --> 00:42:41.880 close to fire like this. So, like, Celena is a 881 00:42:41.920 --> 00:42:45.039 pretty big base, you know, comparatively, certainly from where you've been. 882 00:42:45.079 --> 00:42:46.920 I'm sure Jack out in the middle of nowhere say 883 00:42:46.920 --> 00:42:50.679 it and you, David, So it's got a pretty big perimeter. 884 00:42:51.920 --> 00:42:54.360 Tons of air not tons, a lot of aircraft there. 885 00:42:54.719 --> 00:42:56.440 So as we're running out to the flight line like 886 00:42:56.639 --> 00:42:59.880 we could we could hear rounds coming in like mortar around. 887 00:43:00.119 --> 00:43:03.679 We could see tracer fire. And when you launched it. 888 00:43:03.760 --> 00:43:05.679 In Apache, you have a crew chief who sits on 889 00:43:05.679 --> 00:43:08.519 the wing with you or who's outside the aircraft connected 890 00:43:08.559 --> 00:43:12.239 with a mic, so it's the two pilot copilot, and 891 00:43:12.280 --> 00:43:15.239 then you've got your crew chief who owns the aircraft basically, 892 00:43:15.679 --> 00:43:18.760 and they're checking you off as you're ramping up. And 893 00:43:19.840 --> 00:43:21.719 it was the most intense I'd seen, Like I'd never 894 00:43:21.760 --> 00:43:23.679 had people shooting at me like this when I was 895 00:43:23.719 --> 00:43:27.480 outside of an aircraft just getting in. So we're getting 896 00:43:27.519 --> 00:43:30.360 into the aircraft, rounds are coming in, our crewchiefs are 897 00:43:30.400 --> 00:43:33.280 still on the line and I'm I'm the company commander 898 00:43:33.280 --> 00:43:36.519 at the time, and I'm telling these guys, I'm like, guys, 899 00:43:36.719 --> 00:43:38.559 disconnect and get in. We'll be all right. We can 900 00:43:38.599 --> 00:43:40.800 take off on our own. And they stayed with us, 901 00:43:40.800 --> 00:43:43.000 which I just thought was badass. I loved seeing it. 902 00:43:43.079 --> 00:43:45.440 Like crewchiefs in the Apache side of the world, they 903 00:43:45.440 --> 00:43:47.199 don't get to fly with you, like there's no room 904 00:43:47.239 --> 00:43:50.440 for them to fly, so they're kind of confined to 905 00:43:50.480 --> 00:43:53.280 the base. And this night, in particular, I just saw 906 00:43:53.320 --> 00:43:55.639 some serious bravery from these guys. I loved seeing it, 907 00:43:55.679 --> 00:43:58.719 and there are unsung heroes in this community. But we 908 00:43:58.800 --> 00:44:02.039 finally took off and it was insane. So the base 909 00:44:02.079 --> 00:44:05.239 that at Sealerno at the time was kind of owned 910 00:44:05.280 --> 00:44:10.679 by an artillery unit, right, so what infantry guys? Oh wait, 911 00:44:10.719 --> 00:44:14.519 two thousand and eight, July two thousand and eight, and 912 00:44:14.840 --> 00:44:16.679 what set all this off was a v bid that 913 00:44:16.760 --> 00:44:19.920 hit our front gate and then like a basically a 914 00:44:19.960 --> 00:44:24.280 coordinated attack on the base, which had really not happened 915 00:44:24.440 --> 00:44:27.119 that often. It was rare for that to happen. So 916 00:44:27.199 --> 00:44:30.320 we took off and artillery folks are manning the perimeter, 917 00:44:30.440 --> 00:44:33.280 but they're not you know, they're not infantryment, so they're 918 00:44:33.280 --> 00:44:35.840 not used to like moving outside and closing with the 919 00:44:35.920 --> 00:44:39.280 enemy the same way an infantry unit is. So when 920 00:44:39.320 --> 00:44:42.239 we got in the air, we're trying to get situational 921 00:44:42.280 --> 00:44:46.199 awareness on the ground and it was mayhem. 922 00:44:46.360 --> 00:44:48.360 Just so we're we got night vision. 923 00:44:48.599 --> 00:44:51.119 Usually in the Apache, one guy I'll be flying flear 924 00:44:51.360 --> 00:44:53.320 so the thermal and one guy I'll be up on 925 00:44:53.400 --> 00:44:56.239 night vision goggles depending on what the moon and illumination is. 926 00:44:57.119 --> 00:44:59.679 And we're just initially like usually we take off, when 927 00:44:59.679 --> 00:45:02.960 we fly for fifteen minutes at least sometimes an hour 928 00:45:03.039 --> 00:45:05.400 before we're in contact, and here it's. 929 00:45:05.280 --> 00:45:08.079 Immediate and the radios are blowing up. 930 00:45:08.679 --> 00:45:11.519 You got different units trying to defend different parts of 931 00:45:11.519 --> 00:45:13.599 the base, and you got folks trying to move when 932 00:45:13.599 --> 00:45:16.719 they're not tactically used to doing that. And then we 933 00:45:16.800 --> 00:45:21.079 got Chatman Fob Chapman nearby, which has all these kick 934 00:45:21.079 --> 00:45:23.840 ass operators there, and they're coming out to play also 935 00:45:23.920 --> 00:45:26.679 because they're like, oh shit, there's a fight and it's here, 936 00:45:27.159 --> 00:45:31.519 we're coming out. So we spent at least twenty or 937 00:45:31.559 --> 00:45:33.360 thirty minutes just trying to figure out who the good 938 00:45:33.360 --> 00:45:36.280 guys were and who the bad guys were. Right, And 939 00:45:36.519 --> 00:45:38.320 one of the things we do when we're on a 940 00:45:38.400 --> 00:45:42.440 tight target like this is the Apache is one of 941 00:45:42.440 --> 00:45:45.960 the most advanced aircraft you have, so you've got different 942 00:45:46.000 --> 00:45:49.440 displays up in the cockpit, different screens, and so what 943 00:45:49.480 --> 00:45:52.800 we'll do is we'll drop these different boxes on the 944 00:45:52.840 --> 00:45:56.239 screen and basically text them to the other aircraft so 945 00:45:56.280 --> 00:46:00.400 it shows up on their screen. Cool, and we'll will 946 00:46:00.519 --> 00:46:03.639 basically drop a line that says, hey, don't cross this line, 947 00:46:03.679 --> 00:46:06.519 like you guys, stay north of this, we'll stay south 948 00:46:06.960 --> 00:46:08.920 and then we can kind of focus on what's going 949 00:46:08.960 --> 00:46:11.920 on around us without having to stay in a formation right, 950 00:46:12.000 --> 00:46:15.599 which we'll do in other scenarios, but in this case, 951 00:46:16.000 --> 00:46:18.599 it was like, let's drop a line. You stay over there, 952 00:46:18.719 --> 00:46:21.239 we'll be over here. And we got lined up to 953 00:46:21.280 --> 00:46:23.119 take a shot. So I'm in the front seat, which 954 00:46:23.159 --> 00:46:24.800 is where you do most of the shooting from. And 955 00:46:24.840 --> 00:46:29.159 you've got this system with these like handles, joysticks basically 956 00:46:29.280 --> 00:46:31.960 to do all your shooting, and my back seater, who's 957 00:46:32.000 --> 00:46:35.760 the most experienced to do in the unit, is flying 958 00:46:35.840 --> 00:46:39.639 us around. And actually, sorry, no, no, no, so this is 959 00:46:39.719 --> 00:46:41.400 I was in the back seat. He was in the 960 00:46:41.400 --> 00:46:43.599 front seat. So the most experienced guy was in the 961 00:46:43.599 --> 00:46:46.239 front seat and I was in the back seat because 962 00:46:46.280 --> 00:46:49.039 we thought like, hey, we're on QRF, it's unlikely we'll launch, 963 00:46:49.559 --> 00:46:52.639 but we're getting complacent here, so let's switch up seats. 964 00:46:53.400 --> 00:46:56.039 So I was in the back where I'm flying mostly 965 00:46:56.159 --> 00:46:59.800 where as the company commander, I'm usually the guy directing 966 00:46:59.800 --> 00:47:02.960 the fight. I shouldn't be flying, I should be taking 967 00:47:03.000 --> 00:47:08.079 shots and coordinating. So I'm in the back were flying around. 968 00:47:08.599 --> 00:47:11.960 I clear him for a shot and like a second 969 00:47:12.199 --> 00:47:16.400 before I'm like, you're clear, And just as I say that, 970 00:47:16.480 --> 00:47:19.679 our wingman flies right in front of us, so like, 971 00:47:19.719 --> 00:47:22.039 if he had pulled the trigger, we potentially could have 972 00:47:22.039 --> 00:47:23.000 shot down our wingman. 973 00:47:23.519 --> 00:47:27.480 It was one of the worst experiences in my life. 974 00:47:28.079 --> 00:47:32.000 So I am like, I'm shook at that point. Yeah, 975 00:47:32.119 --> 00:47:35.159 ten seconds, So I pull out and I just start 976 00:47:35.239 --> 00:47:39.760 coasting for a little bit to regain. And this guy JT. 977 00:47:40.079 --> 00:47:42.280 I interviewed him. He was the dude in the front seat. 978 00:47:42.599 --> 00:47:45.280 He was the second interview I ever did, and we 979 00:47:45.360 --> 00:47:50.920 talked about this on air, and he like the amount 980 00:47:50.960 --> 00:47:54.400 of poise he showed in not tearing my ass apart. 981 00:47:54.679 --> 00:47:56.800 And he's a warrant officer, right, so he's a CW four, 982 00:47:56.880 --> 00:48:00.280 So technically I outrank him, but not in reality, right, 983 00:48:00.360 --> 00:48:05.000 Like the hierarchy there is. He's an incredible pilot and 984 00:48:05.039 --> 00:48:08.440 I'm a newbie basically, and he's like, hey, are you good, sir? 985 00:48:08.519 --> 00:48:09.119 You ready to go? 986 00:48:10.079 --> 00:48:12.559 And you know, we took like maybe ten seconds, and 987 00:48:12.559 --> 00:48:13.920 I was like, yeah, let's get back in, and we 988 00:48:13.920 --> 00:48:16.239 got back in and we and so we ended up 989 00:48:16.559 --> 00:48:19.599 helping here. We took some shots. I don't think we 990 00:48:19.639 --> 00:48:22.840 actually I doubt we would have killed anybody there. Like, 991 00:48:22.880 --> 00:48:25.880 it was a really chaotic scene. But we got back 992 00:48:25.880 --> 00:48:28.440 in and helped kind of like calm calm the situation 993 00:48:28.599 --> 00:48:33.400 down landed. But I still remember that as like we 994 00:48:33.440 --> 00:48:35.840 did what we were supposed to do. But man like 995 00:48:35.920 --> 00:48:39.400 it was it was another ego check for me that 996 00:48:39.480 --> 00:48:41.440 you just can't be You got to be on the 997 00:48:41.519 --> 00:48:43.800 details of everything, and I couldn't be trying to run 998 00:48:43.800 --> 00:48:45.760 the battle from the back seat. And I was really 999 00:48:45.800 --> 00:48:48.400 appreciative of how he handled that situation with me. 1000 00:48:48.559 --> 00:48:49.360 It could have been worse. 1001 00:48:49.480 --> 00:48:54.519 What was that a result of your your wingman breaking 1002 00:48:54.559 --> 00:48:55.760 in that line or. 1003 00:48:57.079 --> 00:49:00.480 That was that was me losing situational awareness? Yeah? You know, 1004 00:49:00.599 --> 00:49:02.039 And Jack, I think back to. 1005 00:49:02.320 --> 00:49:04.199 You telling me that story about the first time you 1006 00:49:04.239 --> 00:49:07.320 pulled the trigger and almost having a friendly fire, and 1007 00:49:07.440 --> 00:49:09.039 you know, like owning up to it, like I don't 1008 00:49:09.039 --> 00:49:10.639 want to tell this story. It makes me sound like 1009 00:49:10.639 --> 00:49:12.159 I don't know what I'm doing, right, you know, But 1010 00:49:12.199 --> 00:49:14.920 it's chaotic in combat. Yeah, so people who want to 1011 00:49:14.920 --> 00:49:18.280 know what it's like, it is chaotic, man, right, especially 1012 00:49:18.320 --> 00:49:20.440 you got all these radios blown up, we got air 1013 00:49:20.480 --> 00:49:22.679 to air, we're talking to our talk, we're talking to 1014 00:49:22.679 --> 00:49:25.639 the artillery talk. We got new guys coming in from 1015 00:49:26.159 --> 00:49:29.079 Spooky Land, from Chapman who are all parts of different 1016 00:49:29.159 --> 00:49:30.119 organizations we're. 1017 00:49:29.960 --> 00:49:31.000 Not allowed to know about. 1018 00:49:31.239 --> 00:49:34.039 We've got artillery men trying to move like infantry units, 1019 00:49:34.559 --> 00:49:37.760 and then we're just trying to deconflict. So it just 1020 00:49:37.800 --> 00:49:40.159 gets crazy. But it's reality out there. 1021 00:49:40.239 --> 00:49:40.480 Yeah. 1022 00:49:40.639 --> 00:49:43.920 I think, you know, for people who have been in combat, 1023 00:49:43.960 --> 00:49:48.440 they understand what the fog were actually is. I think 1024 00:49:48.440 --> 00:49:51.800 that if you haven't been that situation, like it's conceptual, like, oh, 1025 00:49:51.840 --> 00:49:55.199 things can confuse it. You're making split second decisions that 1026 00:49:55.360 --> 00:49:58.880 might cost you your life or somebody else's life, and 1027 00:49:59.760 --> 00:50:03.480 you know, and it's easy to get target fixated. It's 1028 00:50:03.519 --> 00:50:07.599 easy to you know, make the wrong call or it's 1029 00:50:07.719 --> 00:50:08.280 just easy. 1030 00:50:08.360 --> 00:50:11.119 Yeah, you know, as Ryan points out, I mean when 1031 00:50:11.119 --> 00:50:13.760 we tell these kind of like warst stories and deployment stories, 1032 00:50:13.800 --> 00:50:15.559 we have a tendency to talk about the ones where 1033 00:50:15.559 --> 00:50:17.840 things went really good and we feel really good about. 1034 00:50:18.320 --> 00:50:21.039 But we all wish that the way it worked was 1035 00:50:21.079 --> 00:50:21.679 you go in and. 1036 00:50:21.639 --> 00:50:24.559 It's nice clean head shots on some Alcaeda terrorists and 1037 00:50:24.599 --> 00:50:26.639 the bad guys die and the good guys get home 1038 00:50:26.679 --> 00:50:28.880 to the fob in time for hot sandwiches and soup, 1039 00:50:29.000 --> 00:50:32.159 but the reality is it often doesn't work out that way. 1040 00:50:32.320 --> 00:50:33.079 Yeah. 1041 00:50:33.159 --> 00:50:36.119 So yeah, no, I absolutely agree that, you know, it's 1042 00:50:36.159 --> 00:50:37.559 important to tell some of these stories. 1043 00:50:38.360 --> 00:50:41.039 Yeah, and so it's interesting. 1044 00:50:41.119 --> 00:50:45.920 So generally you said that the more senior person generally, 1045 00:50:46.039 --> 00:50:48.719 or the more experienced person generally sits in the back 1046 00:50:49.400 --> 00:50:52.039 and are there are they responsible for flying? 1047 00:50:52.559 --> 00:50:52.920 Can they? 1048 00:50:53.079 --> 00:50:55.400 Are they elevated where they can see out the cockpit 1049 00:50:55.480 --> 00:50:56.920 as well as the person in front. 1050 00:50:57.920 --> 00:51:00.639 Yeah, so they're elevated, so they're sitting behind and up 1051 00:51:01.039 --> 00:51:03.440 from the guy in the front seat, so they can 1052 00:51:03.480 --> 00:51:05.519 see everything and they're in a better position to fly. 1053 00:51:05.920 --> 00:51:08.079 In the front seat, you're kind of down like just 1054 00:51:08.199 --> 00:51:12.840 behind this your panel, your instrument panel. It's got all 1055 00:51:13.039 --> 00:51:15.800 everything on it, so you can kind of see out, 1056 00:51:15.880 --> 00:51:18.440 but it's not as it's not as natural. So the 1057 00:51:18.559 --> 00:51:21.320 natural place to fly is the back seat, and the 1058 00:51:21.360 --> 00:51:23.639 front has a set of systems on it that are 1059 00:51:23.679 --> 00:51:27.119 designed for target acquisition and firing that it does not 1060 00:51:27.679 --> 00:51:30.320 it's not available in the back seat. So you want 1061 00:51:30.360 --> 00:51:33.400 to put the pilot in command in the back responsible 1062 00:51:33.400 --> 00:51:35.480 for just flying and making sure the flight is safe, 1063 00:51:35.719 --> 00:51:38.119 and the person coordinating and shooting is upfront. 1064 00:51:38.360 --> 00:51:39.119 That's really interesting. 1065 00:51:39.880 --> 00:51:43.519 It reminds me of a like a sniper team because 1066 00:51:43.599 --> 00:51:47.440 most like most people think that the most experienced person 1067 00:51:47.519 --> 00:51:49.719 is the one shooting, but that's not the case. 1068 00:51:50.079 --> 00:51:50.880 The spotter is. 1069 00:51:51.159 --> 00:51:53.760 Yeah, the spotterer is the most experienced one because they 1070 00:51:54.119 --> 00:51:57.119 need to be able to read the winds, read trace, 1071 00:51:57.440 --> 00:52:00.639 you know, like they're the ones dialing a person in. 1072 00:52:00.760 --> 00:52:04.159 Because anybody can be trained to pull a trigger, but 1073 00:52:04.280 --> 00:52:06.920 all the mechanics of it actually fall on the spot 1074 00:52:06.960 --> 00:52:07.599 a generally. 1075 00:52:08.440 --> 00:52:12.039 So were there any any other like significant operations that 1076 00:52:12.199 --> 00:52:16.800 noteworthy operations, good or bad, that you think are worth discussing? 1077 00:52:17.800 --> 00:52:20.119 Yeah, I do, so there's one that comes to mind. 1078 00:52:20.360 --> 00:52:25.199 And for me, like this was the craziest hop I 1079 00:52:25.280 --> 00:52:27.519 was ever on. And when I interviewed the same guy 1080 00:52:27.559 --> 00:52:30.519 who was in this flight with me and this senior warrant, 1081 00:52:31.039 --> 00:52:33.800 I interviewed him and I asked him, you know, so 1082 00:52:33.880 --> 00:52:36.360 he had I think four thousand flight hours, he did 1083 00:52:36.360 --> 00:52:39.559 four deployments, And I said, what was the worst day 1084 00:52:39.599 --> 00:52:40.239 you ever had? 1085 00:52:40.280 --> 00:52:44.079 And it was this day? So it was a daytime 1086 00:52:44.159 --> 00:52:45.840 flight we infilled. 1087 00:52:46.360 --> 00:52:49.760 So it was in Wardak Province, so near Goosney, you know, like, 1088 00:52:49.880 --> 00:52:51.519 I don't know if you guys ever spent time there. 1089 00:52:51.840 --> 00:52:54.719 It was in this valley called the Jaalres Valley, and 1090 00:52:55.480 --> 00:53:00.840 my aviation battalion commander was west point classmates with the 1091 00:53:00.880 --> 00:53:04.559 infantry ground space commander right, so the battalion commander on 1092 00:53:04.559 --> 00:53:08.039 the ground, and so they were paired up pretty tightly 1093 00:53:08.159 --> 00:53:11.079 and he wanted to support him all the time. So 1094 00:53:11.199 --> 00:53:13.480 this guy in the ground wanted to go in and 1095 00:53:14.079 --> 00:53:16.400 go into this area and pick a fight. And every 1096 00:53:16.480 --> 00:53:19.199 time we went into this area we picked like somebody 1097 00:53:19.199 --> 00:53:21.559 got shot in this place. Anytime we ever flew in there, 1098 00:53:21.599 --> 00:53:24.800 someone was getting shot. So they infilled a company in 1099 00:53:25.159 --> 00:53:27.440 on the ground and kept them there for a week, 1100 00:53:28.199 --> 00:53:32.280 and then they can't The idea was they'd pick a fight, 1101 00:53:32.360 --> 00:53:33.920 find out where the bad guys were, and then come 1102 00:53:34.000 --> 00:53:35.960 back out. So they after this, So this is two 1103 00:53:36.000 --> 00:53:37.800 thousand and eight. I think in nine or ten they 1104 00:53:37.840 --> 00:53:40.880 ended up putting a fob in this valley. But at 1105 00:53:40.920 --> 00:53:43.320 that time there was nothing like it was the end 1106 00:53:43.360 --> 00:53:44.000 of the world. 1107 00:53:43.760 --> 00:53:44.880 As far as we were concerned. 1108 00:53:45.760 --> 00:53:52.000 So we infilled this infantry company one week, completely quiet, infill, 1109 00:53:52.320 --> 00:53:55.519 nothing going on. We drop them off like chinooks. They 1110 00:53:55.559 --> 00:53:58.559 ground infill they drove in half the unit. Half of 1111 00:53:58.559 --> 00:54:02.079 them we infilled by air. Nothing happened for a week, 1112 00:54:02.400 --> 00:54:04.679 and then we went to X Film and we just 1113 00:54:04.760 --> 00:54:06.320 knew this was going to be bad. And I went 1114 00:54:06.400 --> 00:54:08.880 with this guy to our battalion commander and I was like, hey, 1115 00:54:09.199 --> 00:54:10.960 if there's a way we can change up how we're 1116 00:54:11.000 --> 00:54:13.159 doing this, Like we think we need to. We think 1117 00:54:13.159 --> 00:54:14.840 somebody is going to get killed here, Like we just 1118 00:54:15.639 --> 00:54:18.280 what we know about this area is bad. We shouldn't 1119 00:54:18.320 --> 00:54:20.679 be going in here. But we went in anyway. And 1120 00:54:20.719 --> 00:54:25.239 so I stacked the teams for this basic, this one 1121 00:54:25.280 --> 00:54:28.400 mission with who I thought was the best in our unit. 1122 00:54:28.559 --> 00:54:32.559 So we had multi ships, but we had two apaches 1123 00:54:32.599 --> 00:54:36.960 going in with two Chinooks and then we would rotate 1124 00:54:37.000 --> 00:54:38.920 because it was going to take hours. It was it 1125 00:54:38.960 --> 00:54:40.599 was probably an hour and a half flight just to 1126 00:54:40.639 --> 00:54:43.320 get there from our base and get them back home, 1127 00:54:43.519 --> 00:54:45.119 and then we'd have to refuel. It was going to 1128 00:54:45.159 --> 00:54:48.840 take all day. So we stacked the teams. We fly in, 1129 00:54:48.880 --> 00:54:52.559 and as we're flying in, we started getting so it's 1130 00:54:52.760 --> 00:54:55.400 two Chinooks and then two apaches behind them, and we 1131 00:54:55.440 --> 00:54:59.320 started getting air burst RPGs coming up broad daylight and 1132 00:54:59.360 --> 00:55:04.159 it's prob probably probably like three or four thousand foot 1133 00:55:04.199 --> 00:55:08.679 mountains in a pretty narrow valley with a single road 1134 00:55:08.880 --> 00:55:11.920 in and out, like there was no and maybe like 1135 00:55:13.159 --> 00:55:16.559 three hundred meters of terrain on either side of the 1136 00:55:16.639 --> 00:55:21.119 road right, so it's single road, high steep valley like 1137 00:55:21.199 --> 00:55:24.920 steep steep mountains. And we're flying in and we're already 1138 00:55:24.920 --> 00:55:28.599 taking air bursts. The schnooks are able to x fill folks, 1139 00:55:28.639 --> 00:55:30.079 so we x fill with them, and then we come 1140 00:55:30.119 --> 00:55:32.599 back to cover the ground convoy and there's been no 1141 00:55:32.679 --> 00:55:34.920 contact on the ground, just us getting shot at as 1142 00:55:34.920 --> 00:55:38.320 we fly in, and then is the ground convoy is 1143 00:55:38.480 --> 00:55:41.599 x filling. We're overhead and again like it was a 1144 00:55:41.679 --> 00:55:46.000 clear blue day and we're talking with the ground convoy. 1145 00:55:46.119 --> 00:55:48.519 Everything's good. They come up to this like area that 1146 00:55:48.559 --> 00:55:52.599 has an overpass and they get ambushed. And so it's 1147 00:55:52.639 --> 00:55:56.239 starting out here like we're scanning hell out of this area. 1148 00:55:56.599 --> 00:55:59.519 And one of the dudes who's on the other front seater, 1149 00:55:59.559 --> 00:56:01.519 so I'm in the front seat, and our other front 1150 00:56:01.559 --> 00:56:04.039 seater is a guy who has gone on to be 1151 00:56:04.519 --> 00:56:07.320 a little bird gun pilot like flight lead in one sixtieth, 1152 00:56:07.400 --> 00:56:11.280 so an incredibly gifted pilot he used to find people 1153 00:56:11.400 --> 00:56:14.119 when no one else could see them, and he couldn't 1154 00:56:14.159 --> 00:56:16.960 find anybody, and so already we're on the back foot. 1155 00:56:17.000 --> 00:56:18.320 It's a no shit ambush. 1156 00:56:18.760 --> 00:56:21.159 They initiated it by hitting a dude in one of 1157 00:56:21.199 --> 00:56:24.119 the humbies, like directly with an RPG. So dude took 1158 00:56:24.199 --> 00:56:28.039 it in the chest in an RPG. So it's immediate chaos, 1159 00:56:28.119 --> 00:56:31.079 Like we've got to call in a METAVAC. Got to 1160 00:56:31.079 --> 00:56:32.880 get out of these guys, out of the kill zone. 1161 00:56:33.199 --> 00:56:37.440 And we could not see any enemy guys on the ground, 1162 00:56:37.519 --> 00:56:39.760 no one, like, we just could not see them, And 1163 00:56:39.800 --> 00:56:42.719 so we're flying around overhead for a couple of minutes 1164 00:56:42.760 --> 00:56:46.000 and it's insane on the radios, Like I don't know 1165 00:56:46.039 --> 00:56:48.360 if you guys were ever in this scenario, but there 1166 00:56:48.360 --> 00:56:50.079 were a few times where I heard guys on the 1167 00:56:50.119 --> 00:56:53.639 ground like screaming into the radios because it's no shit, 1168 00:56:53.719 --> 00:56:55.519 life or death at this moment, you know, it's not. 1169 00:56:56.159 --> 00:56:58.679 We're observing this like we're taking fire. We got to 1170 00:56:58.679 --> 00:57:00.920 get out of the kill zone, puts led down here. 1171 00:57:01.840 --> 00:57:05.559 So we're incredibly frustrated in the air. We just can't 1172 00:57:05.559 --> 00:57:07.239 see anyone and we don't want to pull the trigger 1173 00:57:07.239 --> 00:57:10.559 and hit one of our own guys. It's truly danger close. 1174 00:57:11.480 --> 00:57:15.519 So at one point, the same guy, JT says to us, 1175 00:57:15.559 --> 00:57:18.079 we're commute. We're talking air to air, and he says, hey, guys, 1176 00:57:18.719 --> 00:57:21.360 can't we can't get a shot off. Let's fly down 1177 00:57:21.400 --> 00:57:23.159 low and see if they'll shoot at us instead of 1178 00:57:23.159 --> 00:57:24.800 these guys and get them out of a kill zone. 1179 00:57:25.239 --> 00:57:26.480 So he's like, I want to make sure you guys 1180 00:57:26.480 --> 00:57:28.639 are okay doing it because we might get killed. And 1181 00:57:28.639 --> 00:57:30.239 so we said, yep, let's go ahead and do it. 1182 00:57:30.679 --> 00:57:32.800 So we come in and we did a couple passes 1183 00:57:32.840 --> 00:57:36.320 low and we were coming in low on one of them, 1184 00:57:36.719 --> 00:57:40.599 and we could feel our aircraft like bump up a 1185 00:57:40.599 --> 00:57:44.159 couple of feet, which is rare, and it was small 1186 00:57:44.280 --> 00:57:47.880 arms fire hitting us. And then we saw an RPG 1187 00:57:48.079 --> 00:57:50.440 fly out our left window, like I don't know if 1188 00:57:50.440 --> 00:57:53.400 it was ten meters, but we just me and my 1189 00:57:53.480 --> 00:57:56.400 back seater were joking afterwards. It looked like an ACME rocket. 1190 00:57:56.440 --> 00:57:59.440 It was so slow, like it was wiley coyote or 1191 00:57:59.440 --> 00:58:02.239 something like just cruising by us. And if it had 1192 00:58:02.199 --> 00:58:04.000 an air burst, I don't know what would have happened. 1193 00:58:04.039 --> 00:58:06.280 But this guy had a beat on us and just 1194 00:58:06.320 --> 00:58:10.320 missed us. So like for me, that was probably the 1195 00:58:10.400 --> 00:58:13.760 closest I came to dying, and it was, you know, 1196 00:58:13.920 --> 00:58:16.840 to me, it was nerve wracking. So we got back up. 1197 00:58:17.320 --> 00:58:21.519 We're flying and in the Apache, when you're sitting on 1198 00:58:21.559 --> 00:58:24.159 the controls in the front seat, it's designed to be 1199 00:58:24.280 --> 00:58:26.880 like a long range shot, so you're shooting missiles and 1200 00:58:26.960 --> 00:58:29.239 rockets usually from the front seat, and you can shoot 1201 00:58:29.280 --> 00:58:32.840 the gun, but usually you have like more freedom to 1202 00:58:32.880 --> 00:58:36.639 maneuver and space to shoot. But we were real tight 1203 00:58:36.719 --> 00:58:39.159 on this one because of the terrain. So the guy 1204 00:58:39.159 --> 00:58:41.840 in the back seat ended up taking the gun and 1205 00:58:42.000 --> 00:58:44.559 in the Apache, like wherever you're looking with the monocle, 1206 00:58:44.599 --> 00:58:47.280 you could pull the trigger and shoot thirty mil. So 1207 00:58:47.360 --> 00:58:50.320 he started putting rounds down, just looking at targets and 1208 00:58:50.360 --> 00:58:54.239 pulling pulling the trigger, which was rare, like daytime, like 1209 00:58:54.519 --> 00:58:57.000 shots from the back seat kind of in that in 1210 00:58:57.039 --> 00:59:00.199 that scenario are rare from what we had seen. So 1211 00:59:00.280 --> 00:59:02.320 we were just trying to put some rounds down and 1212 00:59:02.360 --> 00:59:04.960 we ended up getting some hits and getting these guys 1213 00:59:04.960 --> 00:59:06.880 out of the kill zone. But this ended up being 1214 00:59:07.159 --> 00:59:09.360 a ten hour day for us, Like we needed a 1215 00:59:09.400 --> 00:59:13.599 general order approval, a general officer's approval to continue flying 1216 00:59:14.079 --> 00:59:16.960 because we had to go back in so many times 1217 00:59:16.960 --> 00:59:20.400 to get these guys out. METAVAC came in, they got 1218 00:59:20.480 --> 00:59:23.800 shot up on the way out, and then just making 1219 00:59:23.800 --> 00:59:26.400 sure like everybody was safe back at their base before 1220 00:59:26.440 --> 00:59:28.880 we landed. So at the end of the day, we 1221 00:59:29.039 --> 00:59:33.239 landed back in coast in Salerno and I hopped out 1222 00:59:33.280 --> 00:59:36.599 of the aircraft. We turn it off, Me and the 1223 00:59:36.639 --> 00:59:39.960 co pilot woul jump out, and as soon as the 1224 00:59:39.960 --> 00:59:43.400 pressure leaves the aircraft, like there's not all this stuff circulating, 1225 00:59:44.440 --> 00:59:47.239 like the fluid can settle, and it just started pouring 1226 00:59:47.280 --> 00:59:50.440 out of bullet holes that we had all over the airframe. 1227 00:59:51.480 --> 00:59:54.440 And then the crew chiefs they're like, god, damn it, sir, 1228 00:59:54.599 --> 00:59:57.079 like I gotta get you know. They it's they're glad 1229 00:59:57.119 --> 00:59:59.519 you came back, like it's all good, good natured fun. 1230 00:59:59.599 --> 01:00:01.599 But they're like, you got my aircraft shot up? What 1231 01:00:01.639 --> 01:00:02.000 the hell? 1232 01:00:02.719 --> 01:00:05.239 But they would go and they pulled out they pulled 1233 01:00:05.239 --> 01:00:07.360 out rounds, and they pulled out one from our fuel 1234 01:00:07.360 --> 01:00:10.360 cell and this was pretty damn cool. So like I 1235 01:00:10.400 --> 01:00:13.559 still have this this ak round that we got hit 1236 01:00:13.639 --> 01:00:17.119 with in our fuel cell in our fuel bladder. So 1237 01:00:17.239 --> 01:00:19.679 the bladder was designed so that it would seal. It 1238 01:00:19.679 --> 01:00:22.440 would self seal as a round came in, so that 1239 01:00:22.519 --> 01:00:25.800 you didn't get any air into the fuel system to combust. 1240 01:00:26.079 --> 01:00:29.480 And I never believed it would work. And that shit worked. 1241 01:00:29.599 --> 01:00:31.519 Who we needed it, that's, you know, amazing. 1242 01:00:32.000 --> 01:00:33.440 So it was awesome, And we got a bunch of 1243 01:00:33.440 --> 01:00:35.119 pictures of like where the rounds came in. 1244 01:00:35.199 --> 01:00:36.239 We got to keep some of them. 1245 01:00:36.239 --> 01:00:39.079 But to me, like that was a huge deal personally, 1246 01:00:39.159 --> 01:00:41.039 that was the worst I'd ever been in. 1247 01:00:41.639 --> 01:00:45.719 Why did you guys need a general officers approval to 1248 01:00:46.159 --> 01:00:48.719 Was it because of the length of the operation or. 1249 01:00:49.719 --> 01:00:50.599 Its flight time? 1250 01:00:50.880 --> 01:00:53.400 So I'm sure you guys have both been in situations 1251 01:00:53.400 --> 01:00:56.000 where you've had aircraft and been like we got crew rest, 1252 01:00:56.039 --> 01:01:01.360 we got to go. It's an unfortunate part of flying. 1253 01:01:01.440 --> 01:01:01.760 I think. 1254 01:01:01.960 --> 01:01:06.199 Yeah, we had basically when Clay, when Clay Hotmaker was 1255 01:01:06.239 --> 01:01:08.000 on he talked about it was he was the one 1256 01:01:08.119 --> 01:01:11.119 sixtieth commander and at a certain point, the pilots will 1257 01:01:11.119 --> 01:01:13.519 get to a certain point and he'd have to either 1258 01:01:13.559 --> 01:01:16.360 ground them or bless off on extending the amount of 1259 01:01:16.360 --> 01:01:18.599 time they can fly. And he's like, yeah, sometimes I 1260 01:01:18.639 --> 01:01:20.519 extended it, and then if the pilot, you know, his 1261 01:01:20.599 --> 01:01:22.719 rear roador eclips the side of the hangar, it's like, well, 1262 01:01:22.800 --> 01:01:23.519 that's my fault. 1263 01:01:23.519 --> 01:01:26.000 I shouldn't have authorized that. 1264 01:01:25.519 --> 01:01:28.679 Exactly, And so it goes up the chain of command. 1265 01:01:28.760 --> 01:01:30.960 So if you're flying daytime, you can fly for like 1266 01:01:31.000 --> 01:01:34.119 eight hours, I think if you're flying night vision at six, 1267 01:01:34.239 --> 01:01:37.719 if you're flying just flear, I think it was like 1268 01:01:37.800 --> 01:01:42.280 four or five, because it justs it mentally drains you 1269 01:01:42.400 --> 01:01:45.320 from having to be on the ball like that. And look, man, 1270 01:01:45.440 --> 01:01:48.719 I mean talking to ground guys, you're going through much worse, 1271 01:01:48.800 --> 01:01:51.599 but they're just so worried about a catastrophic incident with 1272 01:01:51.679 --> 01:01:53.320 an aircraft that they don't want to mess with it. 1273 01:01:53.679 --> 01:01:58.519 So as you start like breaking those thresholds, you kind 1274 01:01:58.519 --> 01:02:00.800 of have to go to your battalion command than to 1275 01:02:00.840 --> 01:02:03.000 the brigade, and then eventually it gets up to like 1276 01:02:03.039 --> 01:02:05.079 general officer level where they have to say, all right, 1277 01:02:05.559 --> 01:02:07.639 keep them flying because they're in some serious shit. 1278 01:02:07.800 --> 01:02:12.239 Yeah, what did you guys have a problem? Was it 1279 01:02:12.360 --> 01:02:14.920 situational whether you could fly daytime? 1280 01:02:14.920 --> 01:02:15.159 Office? 1281 01:02:15.199 --> 01:02:16.840 Because I know that was a huge issue with the 1282 01:02:16.880 --> 01:02:21.079 Air Force trying to get them to fly daytime operations. 1283 01:02:22.039 --> 01:02:25.519 I think for us, no, so we would fly daytime, 1284 01:02:25.559 --> 01:02:29.440 we do convoy escort, we'd be QRF. I don't know 1285 01:02:29.480 --> 01:02:31.800 why that is with you with the Air Force. I mean, 1286 01:02:31.880 --> 01:02:36.039 certainly you know AC one thirties I know are only 1287 01:02:36.079 --> 01:02:40.199 going at night, and obviously one sixtieth is operating at night. 1288 01:02:40.239 --> 01:02:41.760 I feel like every time I've talked to a one 1289 01:02:41.800 --> 01:02:44.840 sixtieth guy who got shot down, it was in the daytime. Yeah, 1290 01:02:44.880 --> 01:02:46.679 so I see why they go at night. But no, 1291 01:02:46.760 --> 01:02:48.760 for us, we were going daytime. And I will say 1292 01:02:49.119 --> 01:02:52.000 at night. And you guys know this in Afghanistan, like, 1293 01:02:52.039 --> 01:02:54.599 you can operate with mbgs a lot, but because of 1294 01:02:54.599 --> 01:02:57.559 the terrain, if the moon isn't very bright or it's 1295 01:02:57.599 --> 01:03:00.679 behind some of those mountains, MVG's don't do a whole 1296 01:03:00.679 --> 01:03:02.440 lot right because you've got to be able to see. 1297 01:03:02.800 --> 01:03:04.920 So if you have flear, you can get out there 1298 01:03:04.960 --> 01:03:08.400 and fly at night. It doesn't matter what the illum is. 1299 01:03:08.679 --> 01:03:10.719 So patches could go out and operate at night when 1300 01:03:10.760 --> 01:03:12.800 a lot of others couldn't. Really, it was US and 1301 01:03:14.719 --> 01:03:17.440 METABAC birds like Ceestar birds from the Air Force that 1302 01:03:17.519 --> 01:03:20.719 always had flear, so we were usually out on moonless nights. 1303 01:03:21.280 --> 01:03:24.599 But were there any other deployments as an a patchy 1304 01:03:24.679 --> 01:03:28.639 pilot or the army before you started getting a bug 1305 01:03:28.719 --> 01:03:32.199 in you about transitioning to other governmental agencies. 1306 01:03:32.960 --> 01:03:35.039 No, No, that was it. So I did one deployment. 1307 01:03:35.079 --> 01:03:36.679 I can't even believe it because it was almost eight 1308 01:03:36.760 --> 01:03:39.119 years post nine to eleven, and just the luck of 1309 01:03:39.159 --> 01:03:41.519 the draw, that's where I was, and I I will say, 1310 01:03:41.559 --> 01:03:43.519 I regret that to this day that I didn't do more. 1311 01:03:45.199 --> 01:03:47.239 You said that some of your viewers had asked you 1312 01:03:47.280 --> 01:03:48.719 about like the whole. 1313 01:03:51.400 --> 01:03:54.760 Close support, like what it was like on your side 1314 01:03:54.960 --> 01:03:57.079 versus like what it was like on our side? 1315 01:03:57.599 --> 01:03:59.440 Can you can you tell us what it was like? 1316 01:03:59.480 --> 01:04:00.400 What was that feeling? 1317 01:04:02.360 --> 01:04:02.639 Man? 1318 01:04:03.159 --> 01:04:05.119 Yeah, that's that's a great way to put it. So, Yeah, 1319 01:04:05.159 --> 01:04:06.679 a lot of a lot of people who listen to 1320 01:04:06.719 --> 01:04:10.159 combat story have asked, Hey, could you talk to somebody 1321 01:04:10.159 --> 01:04:12.159 who's been on the ground when there's an APACHE up 1322 01:04:12.159 --> 01:04:14.039 over it? Not like talking to the APACHE, but just 1323 01:04:14.079 --> 01:04:15.840 like what it's like, and you could talk about kind 1324 01:04:15.840 --> 01:04:17.360 of what it's the feeling is for you and the 1325 01:04:17.440 --> 01:04:20.400 aircraft and them on the ground. So for us, like 1326 01:04:20.440 --> 01:04:23.119 the whole reason we exist is to support you guys 1327 01:04:23.280 --> 01:04:25.280 one hundred percent, which is why I went to that 1328 01:04:25.320 --> 01:04:27.760 infantry course, Like I just wanted to know how you operated, 1329 01:04:27.800 --> 01:04:30.440 what your weapons could do, how to be better partners 1330 01:04:30.440 --> 01:04:33.400 when we're up in the air. Like it sounds corny, 1331 01:04:33.400 --> 01:04:35.559 but like you guys were our customers. How do we 1332 01:04:35.599 --> 01:04:37.880 make your life easier and getting your work done and 1333 01:04:37.960 --> 01:04:41.519 keeping you safe. So for us, it was very it 1334 01:04:41.559 --> 01:04:45.119 was very much this idea of we're there to keep 1335 01:04:45.199 --> 01:04:47.800 you guys alive, and if you need us, we will 1336 01:04:47.840 --> 01:04:50.559 be there. And that's why we love a ten pilots too, 1337 01:04:50.599 --> 01:04:54.079 Like we felt like those were our cousins or something, 1338 01:04:54.519 --> 01:04:56.239 the type of work they used to do with y'all. 1339 01:04:56.280 --> 01:04:57.840 But you know, I'd be curious what it was like 1340 01:04:57.880 --> 01:04:59.920 for you guys on the ground seeing inn a patch. 1341 01:05:00.079 --> 01:05:02.159 Yeah, as I was, we were talking a little bit 1342 01:05:02.159 --> 01:05:05.159 before we started the show. I got to call in 1343 01:05:05.239 --> 01:05:09.320 gun runs from cobras in training, but in combat there 1344 01:05:09.360 --> 01:05:11.840 was somebody much more qualified than I was doing that. 1345 01:05:13.159 --> 01:05:15.559 We had in Iraq, we definitely had a patch. 1346 01:05:15.559 --> 01:05:18.639 He's doing gun runs for us, doing support, and I 1347 01:05:18.679 --> 01:05:21.239 mean it's awesome to see them come in and start. 1348 01:05:21.360 --> 01:05:24.360 You know, a lot of times reducing targets that we 1349 01:05:24.440 --> 01:05:27.800 had actually hit as infantry men. And then just because 1350 01:05:27.840 --> 01:05:30.320 it was kind of a scorched earth campaign against Aqy 1351 01:05:30.400 --> 01:05:32.519 at that point in two thousand and five, so it 1352 01:05:32.559 --> 01:05:34.679 wasn't uncommon to have like AC one thirty or a 1353 01:05:34.719 --> 01:05:37.239 patches come in and just destroy the target after we 1354 01:05:37.360 --> 01:05:41.360 raided it and got everyone out of there. But yeah, 1355 01:05:41.400 --> 01:05:43.159 it's a it's a good feeling when to know those 1356 01:05:43.199 --> 01:05:44.000 guys are overhead. 1357 01:05:45.559 --> 01:05:47.400 We had I don't know if you had an opportunity to. 1358 01:05:47.599 --> 01:05:52.960 We had uh Lewis Fernandez on who is eighty second right, 1359 01:05:53.239 --> 01:05:56.760 and he talked about when he was on, you know, 1360 01:05:56.840 --> 01:06:00.159 he could like they could hear the guys talking, you know, 1361 01:06:00.199 --> 01:06:03.079 they were that close the bad guys and called you know, 1362 01:06:03.119 --> 01:06:05.000 and I believe it was an APACHE that came in 1363 01:06:05.480 --> 01:06:09.000 and he's talking about, you know, he can't hear the 1364 01:06:09.000 --> 01:06:10.920 apatching the patches like, no, we're right out, you know, 1365 01:06:10.960 --> 01:06:12.400 and when you guys are flying the nap of the 1366 01:06:12.440 --> 01:06:15.719 earth and masking the sound and then that feeling of 1367 01:06:15.760 --> 01:06:20.920 the APACHE, and my heart was like racing because like 1368 01:06:21.000 --> 01:06:23.840 close air support, having those guys come in, especially when 1369 01:06:24.599 --> 01:06:29.039 especially when you're like looking at your Buddy's like, well, 1370 01:06:29.039 --> 01:06:31.000 we're gonna we're gonna go to the last round, but 1371 01:06:31.119 --> 01:06:34.519 like this feels like it and having close air support 1372 01:06:34.559 --> 01:06:34.880 come in. 1373 01:06:35.800 --> 01:06:37.760 It's like a spiritual experience. 1374 01:06:37.840 --> 01:06:41.760 I mean, it's it's like on a really cold cold night, 1375 01:06:41.840 --> 01:06:45.039 you know you've been and then the sun, you know, Bob, 1376 01:06:45.159 --> 01:06:48.480 the big orange ball comes up over the horizon starts 1377 01:06:48.480 --> 01:06:51.480 warming you. That's exactly what it's like when when you 1378 01:06:51.480 --> 01:06:54.800 guys show up on station, when it's like when it's 1379 01:06:54.840 --> 01:06:58.960 down to the wire and you know, and your your optics, 1380 01:06:59.000 --> 01:07:02.920 your ability to see people, your ability to engage it. 1381 01:07:04.800 --> 01:07:07.440 I like I said, I can't describe it as anything 1382 01:07:07.480 --> 01:07:10.679 other than a spiritual experience today to like be pulled 1383 01:07:10.800 --> 01:07:13.559 out of that by these guys that just roll in 1384 01:07:13.599 --> 01:07:16.199 and you guys are always so calm, cool, collected on 1385 01:07:16.199 --> 01:07:17.639 on the on the radio. 1386 01:07:17.760 --> 01:07:19.880 You know, no matter what we like when we keep 1387 01:07:19.880 --> 01:07:21.159 the mic for you guys. 1388 01:07:21.159 --> 01:07:23.320 Yeah, no matter what's going on, it's like, yeah, we 1389 01:07:23.400 --> 01:07:23.719 got this. 1390 01:07:24.119 --> 01:07:26.519 Dave and I have had the conversation too, which I 1391 01:07:26.519 --> 01:07:29.519 think most like ground guys have had it or have 1392 01:07:29.639 --> 01:07:33.000 experienced when suddenly you're on target in a place like 1393 01:07:33.039 --> 01:07:35.840 Afghanistan and suddenly you hear like a woman's voice come 1394 01:07:35.880 --> 01:07:38.960 over the net and everyone starts looking around the target. 1395 01:07:38.679 --> 01:07:40.440 Like, who the hell there's a girl out here? 1396 01:07:41.239 --> 01:07:42.880 And then you find out later, oh, she said the 1397 01:07:42.920 --> 01:07:45.079 air like I remember we had a I think it 1398 01:07:45.119 --> 01:07:47.800 was a female AC one thirty pilot actually, and once 1399 01:07:47.840 --> 01:07:49.480 in a while you'd hear her come over the net 1400 01:07:49.480 --> 01:07:51.119 and everyone's like, she sounds cute. 1401 01:07:51.159 --> 01:07:53.000 Where is she awesome? Yeah? 1402 01:07:53.079 --> 01:07:55.599 Yeah, it's it's sort of like in Lord of the 1403 01:07:55.639 --> 01:07:58.960 Rings when when when they're kind I don't remember the 1404 01:07:58.960 --> 01:08:00.920 battle and they're coming out of the asshole and then 1405 01:08:01.000 --> 01:08:04.519 get off on the the cavalries up on the mountain 1406 01:08:04.519 --> 01:08:05.199 and they come down. 1407 01:08:05.239 --> 01:08:08.400 It's like, oh my god, thank god. Thanks. 1408 01:08:08.440 --> 01:08:13.800 So Ryan does what does this idea come into your mind? Like, Okay, 1409 01:08:13.840 --> 01:08:17.960 I'm a pretty badass Apache Company commander here, but I 1410 01:08:18.000 --> 01:08:19.880 think I want to go and try something different and 1411 01:08:19.920 --> 01:08:21.319 serve my country in a different way. 1412 01:08:21.359 --> 01:08:24.000 What was that sort of like progression like for you? 1413 01:08:24.960 --> 01:08:27.239 So for me, it was early on in life I 1414 01:08:27.319 --> 01:08:30.159 really wanted to be you know, I followed my dad's 1415 01:08:30.159 --> 01:08:32.479 footsteps very closely as you could see, Like I went 1416 01:08:32.640 --> 01:08:34.600 into combat and actually the day that I was just 1417 01:08:34.640 --> 01:08:38.680 talking about that nasty operation was the same day of 1418 01:08:38.680 --> 01:08:41.640 the year where my dad got his silver star in 1419 01:08:41.720 --> 01:08:47.039 your eye, So it's really weird, like fifty years a part, 1420 01:08:47.680 --> 01:08:50.720 forty years apart, forty years apart anyway, so that meant 1421 01:08:50.760 --> 01:08:53.960 a lot to me. But growing up, I love living 1422 01:08:54.159 --> 01:08:56.920 in these different places. I liked the idea of these 1423 01:08:56.960 --> 01:09:00.159 embassies in this lifestyle, but I really thought that the 1424 01:09:00.159 --> 01:09:02.159 AA side of it was cool. I just always thought 1425 01:09:02.199 --> 01:09:04.680 that there was something neat and interesting about it. But 1426 01:09:04.760 --> 01:09:07.239 when when I got out of the military, it was 1427 01:09:07.279 --> 01:09:08.960 really like I'm making a clean break. 1428 01:09:09.000 --> 01:09:11.840 I had gotten an MBA. I was like, I'm gonna go. 1429 01:09:11.800 --> 01:09:14.560 And do something normal, make some money, and probably three 1430 01:09:14.600 --> 01:09:18.880 months in, I hated my life, hated it. So any 1431 01:09:19.119 --> 01:09:21.640 anybody who has been in the military and has come 1432 01:09:21.680 --> 01:09:23.439 out and had to try to fill this void knows 1433 01:09:23.479 --> 01:09:26.239 what I'm talking about. But I just I was still young, 1434 01:09:26.359 --> 01:09:28.760 you know, I felt young, and I wanted to do more, 1435 01:09:29.520 --> 01:09:32.720 and I threw everything I had at getting into the agency, 1436 01:09:32.880 --> 01:09:34.880 so I applied. It takes a long time to get 1437 01:09:34.920 --> 01:09:38.560 in with security clearances and background checks, so for me, 1438 01:09:38.600 --> 01:09:42.079 it was a year start to finish. But you know, 1439 01:09:42.159 --> 01:09:44.880 I was living in North Carolina, and I just told 1440 01:09:44.880 --> 01:09:48.399 my wife, like, I'm miserable. We're moving to d C. 1441 01:09:48.560 --> 01:09:50.439 We're gonna move to the epicenter, and I'm just going 1442 01:09:50.479 --> 01:09:52.399 to get closer to it. So I ended up doing 1443 01:09:52.399 --> 01:09:56.479 consulting work for you know, an army client. I went 1444 01:09:56.520 --> 01:09:58.920 back to school and got another master's degree. 1445 01:09:59.199 --> 01:09:59.680 In d C. 1446 01:09:59.880 --> 01:10:01.760 Like, whatever I could do to get me closer to 1447 01:10:01.800 --> 01:10:05.600 people in this world I wanted to do. And you know, 1448 01:10:05.640 --> 01:10:08.079 I finally got picked up by the recruiter and it 1449 01:10:08.119 --> 01:10:10.039 took a year to get in the door, but it 1450 01:10:10.119 --> 01:10:12.720 was from childhood for me, like wanting to get into 1451 01:10:12.720 --> 01:10:13.199 this world. 1452 01:10:13.960 --> 01:10:16.000 You were kind of set up for it pretty well too. 1453 01:10:16.079 --> 01:10:19.079 I mean, with all this experience abroad, are you speak 1454 01:10:19.119 --> 01:10:20.119 any foreign languages? 1455 01:10:21.319 --> 01:10:21.399 No? 1456 01:10:21.640 --> 01:10:23.560 At the time I didn't, so I got trained when 1457 01:10:23.560 --> 01:10:26.359 I was there to pick up French. But you know, 1458 01:10:26.479 --> 01:10:30.560 growing up, I took Spanish when I was younger. You know, 1459 01:10:30.600 --> 01:10:34.039 I could speak Flemish because we lived in Belgium. That 1460 01:10:34.159 --> 01:10:37.119 was it, you know, I lost that and not surprisingly, 1461 01:10:37.159 --> 01:10:39.000 it's not a language that you really need. 1462 01:10:40.960 --> 01:10:43.199 Did you have a desire? 1463 01:10:44.119 --> 01:10:46.600 Look, with all the different jobs in the agency, did 1464 01:10:46.640 --> 01:10:49.039 you have a specific focused did you want to get 1465 01:10:49.039 --> 01:10:51.760 into the aviation or operations or. 1466 01:10:52.479 --> 01:10:56.359 So this this war on me a little bit because well, 1467 01:10:56.399 --> 01:10:58.520 first of all, like many people, you don't know anything 1468 01:10:58.520 --> 01:11:01.800 about the agency because it's so routed in secrecy, So 1469 01:11:01.880 --> 01:11:03.279 I didn't know what the hell I was doing. They 1470 01:11:03.319 --> 01:11:05.359 just said, hey, you're coming in. You're going to go 1471 01:11:05.439 --> 01:11:07.560 do this job. Does that sound okay? And I was like, 1472 01:11:07.640 --> 01:11:10.600 I'll go and mop floors and toilets for you if 1473 01:11:10.640 --> 01:11:13.079 you will let me come into this build. So I'll 1474 01:11:13.079 --> 01:11:14.920 do whatever you want me to do to get my 1475 01:11:14.960 --> 01:11:16.680 foot in here. But yeah, hell yeah, I'll. 1476 01:11:16.520 --> 01:11:19.359 Go do You're like Forrest Gump going through the farm. 1477 01:11:19.520 --> 01:11:24.000 Oh man, oh man, do whatever you tell me. Yes, 1478 01:11:24.159 --> 01:11:26.079 whatever you want me to do, I'm going to go do. 1479 01:11:27.479 --> 01:11:30.159 But yeah, there's, as you guys know very well, there's 1480 01:11:30.199 --> 01:11:34.600 a paramilitary side to the agency. That's that's usually hunting 1481 01:11:34.680 --> 01:11:38.640 down people who have any not any type of military 1482 01:11:38.760 --> 01:11:42.000 like specific skills and aviation. It's it's kind of rare 1483 01:11:42.039 --> 01:11:45.840 to get a pilot in the agency because usually pilots 1484 01:11:45.880 --> 01:11:47.760 want to fly, and all they want to do is fly, 1485 01:11:47.840 --> 01:11:50.239 and they stay in and they have bonus structures set 1486 01:11:50.319 --> 01:11:52.000 up to keep them in service. 1487 01:11:52.039 --> 01:11:54.319 Flying, so it's not often you get folks who are Yeah. 1488 01:11:54.399 --> 01:11:56.680 When when we first talked Ryan, I asked you, I 1489 01:11:56.680 --> 01:11:58.680 was like, well, were you an air branch like flying 1490 01:11:58.720 --> 01:12:01.920 spooky under cover helicopters and You're like no, as an 1491 01:12:01.960 --> 01:12:03.960 ops guy like polar opposite. 1492 01:12:04.039 --> 01:12:04.399 Yeah, no. 1493 01:12:05.520 --> 01:12:08.960 So for me though, there was this like, God, I 1494 01:12:09.000 --> 01:12:10.880 would love to go over to that side of the 1495 01:12:10.880 --> 01:12:14.000 house and do that because I just loved I would 1496 01:12:14.039 --> 01:12:16.640 have if I could have gone back to Afghanistan as 1497 01:12:16.680 --> 01:12:20.279 a PMO and you know, like supported that mission again, 1498 01:12:20.359 --> 01:12:22.199 like all the guys I had served with were back 1499 01:12:22.239 --> 01:12:24.640 down range again, and I hated myself for not being 1500 01:12:24.720 --> 01:12:26.800 there right and I was thinking, God, I'm going to 1501 01:12:26.840 --> 01:12:31.000 go somewhere and just watch this happen. So it's it 1502 01:12:31.520 --> 01:12:34.039 really wore on me. But their deployment cycle is rough. 1503 01:12:34.319 --> 01:12:36.760 You know, it's a tough deployment cycle for those guys, 1504 01:12:36.800 --> 01:12:40.199 and they're in difficult places. And I think a lot 1505 01:12:40.199 --> 01:12:42.119 of them want to go and do traditional roles on 1506 01:12:42.159 --> 01:12:44.359 the op side so they can take a breath. So 1507 01:12:44.760 --> 01:12:46.880 it's probably a blessing. I didn't end up doing that, 1508 01:12:46.920 --> 01:12:48.920 but it weighed on me heavily as I started out. 1509 01:12:48.960 --> 01:12:52.880 For sure, for sure. Yeah, so you you went. 1510 01:12:53.239 --> 01:12:57.359 So you went in the ops and you got accepted 1511 01:12:57.399 --> 01:12:58.399 and you went to the farm. 1512 01:12:58.439 --> 01:13:01.680 I assume or and I should say, because you guys 1513 01:13:01.680 --> 01:13:03.760 did introduce me as an OPS officer, and if there 1514 01:13:03.800 --> 01:13:05.680 are people who know me, they would say, no, no, 1515 01:13:05.720 --> 01:13:08.279 you weren't actually an OPS officer. So as a collection manager, 1516 01:13:08.840 --> 01:13:11.000 so it's separate. We get trained in the same way 1517 01:13:11.039 --> 01:13:14.359 as OPS officers, but we have different roles and folks 1518 01:13:14.359 --> 01:13:17.000 will reach out to me who are interested in getting 1519 01:13:17.000 --> 01:13:18.680 into the agency and we'll talk through some of this 1520 01:13:18.720 --> 01:13:20.600 and we can because it's all on the website. Like 1521 01:13:20.640 --> 01:13:23.520 I'm not giving away secrets here. But it's a different role. 1522 01:13:23.720 --> 01:13:28.479 Where OPS officers are out there meeting assets, collecting intel. 1523 01:13:28.600 --> 01:13:31.359 That is their job, like one hundred percent, that's what 1524 01:13:31.399 --> 01:13:34.199 they're working on. In my role, I was trained to 1525 01:13:34.239 --> 01:13:36.960 do that and I did that as part of my job. 1526 01:13:37.119 --> 01:13:39.840 But the other part of my role was to understand 1527 01:13:39.920 --> 01:13:41.960 for whatever issue I was assigned to. If we just 1528 01:13:42.000 --> 01:13:44.880 say like, hey, you're working on terrorism right in this 1529 01:13:44.920 --> 01:13:48.079 particular country. If we set Afghanistan, you know, my job 1530 01:13:48.119 --> 01:13:51.319 is to understand where our sources are in Afghanistan on 1531 01:13:51.439 --> 01:13:54.760 this target set so I need to know where they 1532 01:13:54.800 --> 01:13:58.000 are and what they have information and access to, and 1533 01:13:58.039 --> 01:13:59.840 then I need to understand what the people who are 1534 01:14:00.000 --> 01:14:02.720 meeting that intel in the end, what they need to know, 1535 01:14:02.960 --> 01:14:05.199 like what are their intel gaps, and then I need 1536 01:14:05.239 --> 01:14:08.680 to close those gaps. So if somebody like a military 1537 01:14:08.720 --> 01:14:12.159 customer or somebody on the policy side is thinking, what 1538 01:14:13.039 --> 01:14:16.880 is the situation with this terrorist group in Afghanistan, it's 1539 01:14:16.920 --> 01:14:20.039 my job to then go and say, hey, Bob the 1540 01:14:20.039 --> 01:14:22.239 ops officer, you're going out to meet with this guy. 1541 01:14:22.560 --> 01:14:24.439 I know you've got a meeting coming up. When you 1542 01:14:24.439 --> 01:14:26.640 go meet with them, if you can only ask two questions, 1543 01:14:26.640 --> 01:14:29.479 they need to be these two questions right, and they're 1544 01:14:29.479 --> 01:14:31.079 going to know those for the most part, like they're 1545 01:14:31.119 --> 01:14:34.479 going to know these better than anybody. But it's my 1546 01:14:34.920 --> 01:14:38.479 responsibility to be tied in with the customer, the consumer 1547 01:14:38.560 --> 01:14:41.800 of the intel to understand what they need and make 1548 01:14:41.840 --> 01:14:44.800 sure that when that guy's going out, he knows this 1549 01:14:44.880 --> 01:14:47.439 is what I'm asking for. If I have no time available, 1550 01:14:47.479 --> 01:14:49.479 like I got to get this intel out and then 1551 01:14:49.520 --> 01:14:51.479 I help them produce the intel and get it back 1552 01:14:51.800 --> 01:14:54.960 to the person who's reading it so we can be 1553 01:14:55.000 --> 01:14:57.239 in the US as a collection manager, you can be 1554 01:14:57.319 --> 01:15:01.960 forward deployed in stations. I did, and I'm out there handling, 1555 01:15:02.119 --> 01:15:05.319 but I'm also I'm kind of like almost like an 1556 01:15:05.439 --> 01:15:08.880 editor in a newsroom, if you would imagine, and journalists 1557 01:15:08.920 --> 01:15:11.600 are coming back with their copy like all right, here's 1558 01:15:11.600 --> 01:15:14.319 what I got, and then I'm massaging it into this 1559 01:15:14.399 --> 01:15:16.479 thing that it needs to look like as it goes 1560 01:15:16.520 --> 01:15:17.720 out into the community. 1561 01:15:18.000 --> 01:15:21.479 So when we often hear about problems in the Intel 1562 01:15:21.520 --> 01:15:23.960 community that the left hand isn't talking to the right hand, 1563 01:15:24.079 --> 01:15:25.119 your job is to fix that. 1564 01:15:26.800 --> 01:15:31.079 Yeah, yes, but I would say that's I think when 1565 01:15:31.119 --> 01:15:35.000 people say that, it's more like the bureau isn't talking 1566 01:15:35.039 --> 01:15:38.039 with the agency, which isn't talking to mill and so 1567 01:15:38.119 --> 01:15:39.640 there is a little bit of that, Like I would 1568 01:15:39.640 --> 01:15:41.800 be in touch with the people like me at those 1569 01:15:41.840 --> 01:15:46.279 different organizations making sure we're you know, if we're overlapping, 1570 01:15:46.359 --> 01:15:48.920 which can be okay, that we're sharing that and that 1571 01:15:49.000 --> 01:15:50.199 they know what we're doing. 1572 01:15:49.960 --> 01:15:50.640 And vice versa. 1573 01:15:50.800 --> 01:15:54.079 So so there's no disruption of ops, like that's the 1574 01:15:54.159 --> 01:15:56.479 last thing we want. And if we've already collected something, 1575 01:15:57.439 --> 01:16:00.279 we shouldn't waste anybody's time or risk anyone's life to 1576 01:16:00.279 --> 01:16:02.720 go and collect it again, you know, So there's a 1577 01:16:02.760 --> 01:16:04.680 little bit of that. Mine is more making sure that 1578 01:16:04.720 --> 01:16:07.560 the person who's reading the intel has what they need, 1579 01:16:07.680 --> 01:16:10.119 so slightly different than the left and right talking to you. 1580 01:16:10.239 --> 01:16:14.479 Did you ever be that sort of managing in that 1581 01:16:14.560 --> 01:16:16.960 managing role? Did you ever feel like the request you 1582 01:16:16.960 --> 01:16:22.560 were getting from up top or from the customers was 1583 01:16:24.199 --> 01:16:29.000 like that they were just ridiculous and didn't even know 1584 01:16:29.039 --> 01:16:29.479 what they. 1585 01:16:29.319 --> 01:16:30.079 Were asking for. 1586 01:16:32.319 --> 01:16:34.920 I didn't, And actually I might equate this as you 1587 01:16:34.960 --> 01:16:37.600 were talking Jack about calling in Kobris. One of the 1588 01:16:37.640 --> 01:16:40.359 things on the army side as an aviator that I 1589 01:16:40.439 --> 01:16:44.520 often noticed was when we would go and do fam fires, 1590 01:16:44.560 --> 01:16:47.199 you know with ground units, the guys getting on the 1591 01:16:47.279 --> 01:16:50.119 radios talking to us were so afraid to talk to 1592 01:16:50.199 --> 01:16:51.640 us right as pilots. 1593 01:16:51.680 --> 01:16:53.439 It was like, I'm gonna mess something up. 1594 01:16:53.479 --> 01:16:55.680 I got to have this like well structured nine line 1595 01:16:55.680 --> 01:16:58.039 because they've heard of a JTAC doing it. And we 1596 01:16:58.079 --> 01:17:00.000 would tell them, like we'd be in these briefing rooms 1597 01:17:00.079 --> 01:17:03.520 with squad leaders and team like and we just say, guys, 1598 01:17:03.760 --> 01:17:05.880 just talk to us, just tell us, like what you 1599 01:17:05.920 --> 01:17:08.840 see where you see it, Like we are super easy 1600 01:17:08.880 --> 01:17:11.319 to work with. It's not like calling in a fast 1601 01:17:11.359 --> 01:17:14.439 mover that needs all these different points, right. And so 1602 01:17:14.520 --> 01:17:17.239 the reason I bring that up is it's the same 1603 01:17:17.319 --> 01:17:19.279 thing in my role when I'm at the agency and 1604 01:17:19.319 --> 01:17:21.279 I'm talking to a consumer. It's like, you tell me 1605 01:17:21.359 --> 01:17:25.000 what your like hopes and dreams are. We probably aren't 1606 01:17:25.000 --> 01:17:26.960 going to be able to fill it, but I need 1607 01:17:27.000 --> 01:17:30.039 to know, like exactly what you want. Don't hold anything back, 1608 01:17:30.159 --> 01:17:32.119 Just tell me the intel you need and let me 1609 01:17:32.239 --> 01:17:35.720 work on getting it for you. So you know, I 1610 01:17:35.760 --> 01:17:38.359 don't feel like I had anything outrageous in that respect, right, 1611 01:17:38.560 --> 01:17:40.600 And I will say one thing about the agency is 1612 01:17:41.840 --> 01:17:46.239 their patience level is what was completely unlike anything I 1613 01:17:46.279 --> 01:17:50.560 saw in the military, like CET work aside, so counter 1614 01:17:50.640 --> 01:17:53.560 terrorism work that has to be very quick. But when 1615 01:17:53.640 --> 01:17:57.359 you're doing like traditional espionage work, you they have a 1616 01:17:57.600 --> 01:18:01.359 very long time horizon and a lot of patients. So 1617 01:18:01.399 --> 01:18:03.359 it's okay if you don't have intel right now as 1618 01:18:03.399 --> 01:18:06.760 long as you're getting there eventually. And I never expected 1619 01:18:06.800 --> 01:18:08.399 that when I got in. I was just used to 1620 01:18:08.439 --> 01:18:11.880 like everything going one hundred miles an hour right away. 1621 01:18:12.199 --> 01:18:12.439 Right. 1622 01:18:12.640 --> 01:18:15.479 What did you have or what were some of your 1623 01:18:15.479 --> 01:18:18.479 biggest headaches as a CMO, whether they were kind of 1624 01:18:18.520 --> 01:18:19.520 general or specific. 1625 01:18:21.279 --> 01:18:25.600 I should say the CMO within that community has a 1626 01:18:25.600 --> 01:18:28.640 bit of a stigma to it, right. So if I'm 1627 01:18:28.680 --> 01:18:31.159 talking to folks who are in the agency now, like 1628 01:18:31.199 --> 01:18:34.640 you were a CMO, they'd say, shouldn't you what did 1629 01:18:34.680 --> 01:18:36.119 you have? Like a cat next to you and you 1630 01:18:36.119 --> 01:18:40.000 were knitting sweaters? Because the origin of the CMO is 1631 01:18:40.680 --> 01:18:44.800 they were typically spouses of case officers, of ops officers, 1632 01:18:44.800 --> 01:18:45.600 like and I'm talking for. 1633 01:18:46.279 --> 01:18:47.159 That's what Marty did. 1634 01:18:47.720 --> 01:18:51.159 Well, Marty Peterson who we interviewed before she joined the 1635 01:18:51.199 --> 01:18:55.119 CIA as an operations officer. Her husband was a paramilitary 1636 01:18:55.199 --> 01:18:58.720 guy doing ops and laws and she was there as 1637 01:18:58.800 --> 01:19:02.159 his spouse with index cards every day, putting them in, 1638 01:19:02.479 --> 01:19:04.600 putting the reports where they're supposed. 1639 01:19:04.239 --> 01:19:05.479 To go exactly. 1640 01:19:05.760 --> 01:19:11.319 So oftentimes they were spouses writing up reports. So when 1641 01:19:11.319 --> 01:19:13.880 I came in even there was this stigma. But for 1642 01:19:13.920 --> 01:19:17.000 whatever reason, they hired a whole lot of like older 1643 01:19:17.800 --> 01:19:21.720 military officers or senior enlisted to do this role like 1644 01:19:21.760 --> 01:19:23.000 they were I don't know if they were trying to 1645 01:19:23.000 --> 01:19:25.439 break it or they wanted people with you know, war 1646 01:19:25.560 --> 01:19:29.159 zone experience or whatever. So there's definitely that stigma I 1647 01:19:29.159 --> 01:19:31.199 should say so when it comes to headaches, that's not 1648 01:19:31.279 --> 01:19:33.560 a headache. But I would be remiss if I didn't 1649 01:19:33.600 --> 01:19:35.720 touch on this because anybody who's a case officer would 1650 01:19:35.720 --> 01:19:39.319 be like, ah, cmos, they're always busting my balls because 1651 01:19:39.319 --> 01:19:40.840 guys would come in and Jack, I know you were 1652 01:19:40.880 --> 01:19:42.359 a journalist, so I don't know if you got this 1653 01:19:42.439 --> 01:19:45.439 with editors, but like they're coming in like look at 1654 01:19:45.439 --> 01:19:47.560 this great intel I got. It's going to set the 1655 01:19:47.600 --> 01:19:51.079 world on fire. Like actually they collected that over at 1656 01:19:51.119 --> 01:19:54.720 this station yesterday. So thanks for doing this, but it's 1657 01:19:54.760 --> 01:19:58.560 not actually that important or good job. This was written 1658 01:19:58.760 --> 01:20:01.880 by we're drunk when you wrote this, like why are 1659 01:20:01.920 --> 01:20:04.039 you using why would you talk like this? 1660 01:20:04.199 --> 01:20:05.520 What about these details? 1661 01:20:05.920 --> 01:20:09.960 So it was usually a healthy relationship between me and 1662 01:20:10.000 --> 01:20:13.159 the case officer because they want every they think everything 1663 01:20:13.239 --> 01:20:16.439 is going to be earth shattering, and usually as a CMO, 1664 01:20:16.520 --> 01:20:18.960 we have to break some hard news to them about 1665 01:20:19.000 --> 01:20:21.399 how it's really going to go down when it hits 1666 01:20:21.399 --> 01:20:21.840 the press. 1667 01:20:22.000 --> 01:20:26.439 Thank you for your service, that's fun. Mean, yeah, exactly exactly. 1668 01:20:27.119 --> 01:20:30.600 So did you have to sometimes massage egos like tell 1669 01:20:30.560 --> 01:20:31.640 the Maya's great work. 1670 01:20:31.720 --> 01:20:34.279 It's just not needed. We're going to put this in 1671 01:20:34.319 --> 01:20:36.039 the file in case somebody wants it someday. 1672 01:20:37.199 --> 01:20:40.039 Yes, there's a lot of that, and they know, I 1673 01:20:40.039 --> 01:20:43.600 mean a lot of case officers. They just I think 1674 01:20:43.640 --> 01:20:45.720 to be a good case officer you have to have 1675 01:20:45.800 --> 01:20:49.119 this mentality where these types a setback doesn't hurt you. 1676 01:20:49.119 --> 01:20:50.560 You know, like you've got to be able to roll off, 1677 01:20:50.600 --> 01:20:52.920 almost like you're a goalie or something, or a kicker 1678 01:20:52.960 --> 01:20:54.840 where if you miss, it's okay. 1679 01:20:54.920 --> 01:20:56.199 You got to get back up and move. 1680 01:20:56.279 --> 01:20:59.319 And they almost have like a salesman type personality, so 1681 01:20:59.359 --> 01:21:03.920 they can mingle chat someone up, be really affable, and 1682 01:21:04.000 --> 01:21:08.920 then get what they need and get on out. So oftentimes, 1683 01:21:08.960 --> 01:21:11.600 like I'd say, hey, we've got to change this up, 1684 01:21:11.680 --> 01:21:13.560 and they take what I had to say. 1685 01:21:13.239 --> 01:21:14.600 Pretty pretty easily. 1686 01:21:14.680 --> 01:21:16.520 But there are a couple of times somebody would say, no, 1687 01:21:16.720 --> 01:21:18.920 this is how it is, has to be this way. 1688 01:21:19.000 --> 01:21:21.520 This is what he said specifically, I'm not going to 1689 01:21:21.560 --> 01:21:23.640 try to interpret it, and that's important. 1690 01:21:23.640 --> 01:21:25.479 And you want somebody to stick to their guns. 1691 01:21:25.960 --> 01:21:28.520 So you know, there's a there's a bit of tension there, 1692 01:21:28.960 --> 01:21:31.920 but there needs to be and it's it's okay, it's healthy. 1693 01:21:33.239 --> 01:21:35.119 So Ryan, can you spill the tea. I mean, what 1694 01:21:35.199 --> 01:21:37.399 can you say about your time at the agency? Where 1695 01:21:37.399 --> 01:21:39.159 did they send you? What were you doing? Tell us 1696 01:21:39.159 --> 01:21:44.399 your secrets? Yeah, so I was sent to Europe and Africa. 1697 01:21:44.680 --> 01:21:47.800 That's all I can say. I was given French language. 1698 01:21:47.880 --> 01:21:52.840 If you want to try to interpret it, Okay, my time, 1699 01:21:53.359 --> 01:21:56.079 I guess I would say, like, you know, the farm 1700 01:21:56.239 --> 01:21:58.640 is training, you know, as we call it. I know 1701 01:21:58.680 --> 01:21:59.560 you guys know what this is. 1702 01:21:59.600 --> 01:22:01.439 But for those who are listening, I know you've had 1703 01:22:01.439 --> 01:22:03.920 a lot of folks on from the agency are far 1704 01:22:04.039 --> 01:22:05.159 more experienced than me. 1705 01:22:05.840 --> 01:22:08.399 But the farm is, you know, it's kind. 1706 01:22:08.239 --> 01:22:10.920 Of the gauntlet for us and getting through into the 1707 01:22:11.039 --> 01:22:14.920 community and being blessed off. Right, So just speaking at 1708 01:22:14.960 --> 01:22:17.840 a high level about that, I would say that thing 1709 01:22:17.920 --> 01:22:20.039 is a mind game in my opinion. 1710 01:22:20.119 --> 01:22:21.000 You know, I've gone. 1711 01:22:20.840 --> 01:22:23.520 Through sere and flight school and all this other stuff, 1712 01:22:23.560 --> 01:22:26.760 but the farm was like another level of. 1713 01:22:30.000 --> 01:22:32.319 Insecurity. You don't know what's going on. 1714 01:22:32.399 --> 01:22:37.880 You cannot trust anyone at any time, Like everyone is paranoid. 1715 01:22:38.520 --> 01:22:41.359 Anytime you're doing any act, You're like, oh my god, 1716 01:22:41.399 --> 01:22:44.720 who's watching me? So they really beat it into you 1717 01:22:44.800 --> 01:22:46.840 that you got to think through these things on your 1718 01:22:46.880 --> 01:22:48.800 own and I guess I would say coming from the 1719 01:22:48.840 --> 01:22:51.840 military to this, because not everybody does. At the agency, 1720 01:22:51.880 --> 01:22:53.760 A lot of folks come straight out of college and 1721 01:22:53.800 --> 01:22:58.760 they go right into this career. But coming from the military, 1722 01:22:59.279 --> 01:23:02.359 where every time I went out, I had a minimum 1723 01:23:02.399 --> 01:23:06.119 had my co pilot another aircraft, so there are at 1724 01:23:06.159 --> 01:23:08.359 least four of us, and then we're usually supporting you 1725 01:23:08.359 --> 01:23:10.840 guys on the ground, so there's there's like a community 1726 01:23:10.880 --> 01:23:14.159 of us when we're operating at the agency and you're 1727 01:23:14.199 --> 01:23:16.960 being trained to go out completely on your own, like 1728 01:23:17.000 --> 01:23:22.439 one hundred percent, no comms off the grid, Like if 1729 01:23:22.479 --> 01:23:25.239 you screw up, another human's life is at risk, right, 1730 01:23:25.279 --> 01:23:28.720 the asset is at risk. So that was a huge 1731 01:23:28.760 --> 01:23:31.640 difference for me in coming from the military to this, 1732 01:23:31.760 --> 01:23:34.880 like the level of responsibility, especially as you've got guys 1733 01:23:34.920 --> 01:23:36.840 coming out of college, guys and girls who are twenty 1734 01:23:36.840 --> 01:23:40.399 five doing this. There's a lot of responsibility on your shoulders. 1735 01:23:40.479 --> 01:23:44.039 So the farm, it doesn't cut a ton of people 1736 01:23:44.239 --> 01:23:47.039 the way. It's not like Buds or Ranger School for 1737 01:23:47.079 --> 01:23:52.479 you guys, but there's there's a significant triaging process and 1738 01:23:52.600 --> 01:23:54.800 vetting process just to get there. So I think they 1739 01:23:54.840 --> 01:23:56.880 weed out a lot of folks to get to that point. 1740 01:23:57.800 --> 01:24:00.520 And then when you get to the farm, I mean, 1741 01:24:00.560 --> 01:24:06.279 it's ruthless. Just there is no again, no a plus. 1742 01:24:06.359 --> 01:24:08.520 It's either you suck or you did fine, and you 1743 01:24:08.560 --> 01:24:11.439 can go to the next round. And they do these 1744 01:24:11.479 --> 01:24:13.560 cuts that are merciless, and one is on the very 1745 01:24:13.640 --> 01:24:16.479 last day and you've been there a long time, and 1746 01:24:16.520 --> 01:24:19.079 there are people who just get cut and they don't 1747 01:24:19.119 --> 01:24:22.079 tell you why. And there are people you've been with 1748 01:24:22.159 --> 01:24:26.159 for months now who are packing it up and going home. 1749 01:24:26.319 --> 01:24:31.039 And oftentimes what I noticed was it was folks who 1750 01:24:31.239 --> 01:24:34.319 were having trouble and didn't want to talk about it 1751 01:24:34.399 --> 01:24:37.560 in the group, right. So and you probably saw this, 1752 01:24:37.680 --> 01:24:39.720 I'm sure when you guys were going through selection and 1753 01:24:39.760 --> 01:24:42.039 some of the different courses you went through. If you 1754 01:24:42.079 --> 01:24:46.439 don't have the self awareness and the humility, I think 1755 01:24:47.159 --> 01:24:50.000 to just show where you're weak and take on other 1756 01:24:50.000 --> 01:24:52.399 people's advice, you're not going to make it, and they 1757 01:24:52.399 --> 01:24:53.720 will see it and they will cut you. 1758 01:24:54.880 --> 01:24:58.000 Was there anybody that was cut on the last day 1759 01:24:58.039 --> 01:24:59.760 that you were just surprised or. 1760 01:24:59.760 --> 01:25:05.800 Show, Yeah, there was a person who was going to 1761 01:25:05.880 --> 01:25:10.039 be basically the intel rep for dev GRU. You know, 1762 01:25:10.119 --> 01:25:12.600 we just assume one hundred percent this person's getting through. 1763 01:25:13.479 --> 01:25:19.800 We had a senior, fairly senior Marine officer quit during 1764 01:25:19.840 --> 01:25:22.039 the course, which blew my mind. I just didn't even 1765 01:25:22.079 --> 01:25:25.000 think that was in the DNA, And I've seen people 1766 01:25:25.399 --> 01:25:28.199 not just get cut but quit where I never would 1767 01:25:28.199 --> 01:25:32.399 have thought someone would quit. But I think the older 1768 01:25:32.439 --> 01:25:34.359 you get, the harder it is to go through these 1769 01:25:34.680 --> 01:25:36.960 types of games. You know, like it's a game in 1770 01:25:37.000 --> 01:25:39.199 the end, not a game that's not fair because it's 1771 01:25:39.279 --> 01:25:39.840 good training. 1772 01:25:39.920 --> 01:25:41.439 I will say I. 1773 01:25:41.359 --> 01:25:43.359 Wasn't in the units you guys were in in the military. 1774 01:25:43.439 --> 01:25:46.319 I was always conventional, but I had never been through 1775 01:25:46.359 --> 01:25:49.000 such realistic training as I was at at the agency, 1776 01:25:49.119 --> 01:25:52.039 like never. It was not even SYR was close to this. 1777 01:25:52.520 --> 01:25:54.720 So they put a lot into it, but they needed 1778 01:25:54.760 --> 01:25:56.319 to because of the type of work you're going to do. 1779 01:25:56.319 --> 01:25:57.279 On the back end. 1780 01:25:57.119 --> 01:25:59.840 Did you have the opportunity to run any any agents 1781 01:25:59.840 --> 01:26:00.760 in the field. 1782 01:26:01.920 --> 01:26:06.600 I did, Yeah, so I handled I handled human assets 1783 01:26:07.359 --> 01:26:09.920 a few times. Again because I was a CMO. It 1784 01:26:10.000 --> 01:26:12.199 was like, hey, Ryan, as you have time, you can 1785 01:26:12.239 --> 01:26:15.479 go do this. So very much like being an officer 1786 01:26:15.520 --> 01:26:19.199 in the aviation community quite honestly, where your job is 1787 01:26:19.239 --> 01:26:22.000 not really to fly. Your job is to do officer 1788 01:26:22.079 --> 01:26:25.199 things like make sure that everybody has the right size 1789 01:26:25.239 --> 01:26:29.479 boot when you deploy it as as painful as that is, 1790 01:26:29.520 --> 01:26:31.479 and making sure the battle space is operated in a 1791 01:26:31.520 --> 01:26:34.199 certain way and you're liaising right. So as a CMO, 1792 01:26:34.399 --> 01:26:36.840 my job was to stay in touch with analysts at 1793 01:26:36.840 --> 01:26:42.079 headquarters and understand what policy makers needed and then know 1794 01:26:42.159 --> 01:26:46.199 what our stable of assets was. But whenever something came 1795 01:26:46.279 --> 01:26:47.800 up when there was not, but I was like, help 1796 01:26:48.359 --> 01:26:51.079 throw me into that. So you know, over time, you 1797 01:26:51.079 --> 01:26:53.840 build up a reputation and they'll start throwing cases your way. 1798 01:26:54.000 --> 01:26:56.239 So I did get a chance to handle several cases, 1799 01:26:56.840 --> 01:26:59.319 and to me that was the real deal. And I 1800 01:26:59.359 --> 01:27:01.800 will say, just like my first time flying outside the 1801 01:27:01.840 --> 01:27:05.039 wire where I was thinking like it's gonna be World 1802 01:27:05.039 --> 01:27:09.079 War three here. The first time you're cruising around on 1803 01:27:09.119 --> 01:27:12.680 your own, like you're in regular clothes, you have no comms, 1804 01:27:13.279 --> 01:27:16.119 you're in in a vehicle you've never really been in before. 1805 01:27:16.119 --> 01:27:18.039 Well, you think the KG is gonna pull you into 1806 01:27:18.079 --> 01:27:20.039 a panel, dude, Yeah, you got. 1807 01:27:19.840 --> 01:27:23.640 Like mosques going off, you're stopping because of goats crossing 1808 01:27:23.760 --> 01:27:28.399 the road, You're questioning everything. Yeah, like the amount you're 1809 01:27:28.479 --> 01:27:31.359 just so on edge for that, Like that was the 1810 01:27:31.399 --> 01:27:33.399 real deal for me, was doing those types of Oops. 1811 01:27:34.199 --> 01:27:37.239 It's funny because you don't have to be paranoid, but 1812 01:27:37.359 --> 01:27:39.479 when you're doing like an SDR or something like that, 1813 01:27:39.600 --> 01:27:45.039 and when you're new, it's like everybody's looking at you. Everyone, right, 1814 01:27:45.159 --> 01:27:49.039 It's like, person, like, everybody is looking at me. 1815 01:27:49.399 --> 01:27:52.800 You have any funny stories about you know, sources making 1816 01:27:53.079 --> 01:27:56.960 sexual passes at you, or I don't know anything anything funny, 1817 01:27:57.039 --> 01:27:59.840 or we've heard some pretty good ones been passed that. 1818 01:28:00.119 --> 01:28:03.239 So it's I will say to your point, David, of 1819 01:28:04.479 --> 01:28:06.680 to try to kind of like knock the paranoia off 1820 01:28:06.720 --> 01:28:11.159 of you when you're going through that training, They'll they'll 1821 01:28:11.159 --> 01:28:15.479 show you videos of people changing clothes in broad daylight 1822 01:28:15.600 --> 01:28:18.560 down like a New York street, and they'll it'll just 1823 01:28:18.560 --> 01:28:21.000 be somebody walking around and they change their whole outfit 1824 01:28:22.079 --> 01:28:24.399 and nobody even gives them a second book, you know, 1825 01:28:24.399 --> 01:28:26.520 and they're like, this is what is going on around 1826 01:28:26.520 --> 01:28:30.119 you you never even see, right, And so they just 1827 01:28:30.119 --> 01:28:34.039 try to break that mentality for you as you're going 1828 01:28:34.119 --> 01:28:36.840 through doing like just learning how to do SDRs and 1829 01:28:36.880 --> 01:28:39.119 making sure you're not being followed, right, And then you're 1830 01:28:39.159 --> 01:28:41.359 taking down all kinds of license plate numbers. 1831 01:28:41.560 --> 01:28:44.479 Did I see that one before? Did they switch that out? Like? 1832 01:28:44.560 --> 01:28:47.119 Can you write that down while you're driving and not crash? 1833 01:28:47.720 --> 01:28:50.439 Like are you paranoid? And they just the more you 1834 01:28:50.439 --> 01:28:52.720 do it, the more familiar you get, and every I 1835 01:28:52.760 --> 01:28:55.560 feel like almost everybody gets it. A few folks maybe don't, 1836 01:28:55.600 --> 01:28:57.239 but for the most part, you get it over time. 1837 01:28:57.279 --> 01:29:00.119 Some get it quicker than others. On the funny, on 1838 01:29:00.159 --> 01:29:06.720 the funny side of things, let me see no so 1839 01:29:06.800 --> 01:29:11.520 no sexual passes, which should not be surprising. However, there 1840 01:29:12.199 --> 01:29:14.079 one of the ways I had to get to meetings 1841 01:29:14.119 --> 01:29:16.880 at one point in time required me to get massages 1842 01:29:16.920 --> 01:29:23.079 along the way. So it was pretty it was pretty unreal. 1843 01:29:24.800 --> 01:29:27.119 So you know, I go and I'm paying cash. I 1844 01:29:27.159 --> 01:29:29.199 had to make a stop here to I had to 1845 01:29:29.199 --> 01:29:31.720 sell something. Basically, I had to make sure that people 1846 01:29:31.800 --> 01:29:34.399 understood why I was in a certain area. So I 1847 01:29:34.399 --> 01:29:37.399 would get massages, and so I would roll into these 1848 01:29:37.439 --> 01:29:43.279 meetings like with oil all over me, all over, my 1849 01:29:43.439 --> 01:29:47.680 hairs all slicked back, like I'm glistening. You know, I 1850 01:29:47.720 --> 01:29:50.560 look like I was just using manscaps basically, like I'd 1851 01:29:50.640 --> 01:29:54.640 just come out of that and then another time, you know, 1852 01:29:54.760 --> 01:29:58.439 not not that it was sexual, but I was debriefing 1853 01:29:58.479 --> 01:30:03.479 someone in and there were three of us and we 1854 01:30:03.560 --> 01:30:09.159 all didn't speak a common language. So I was speaking French. 1855 01:30:10.479 --> 01:30:14.479 Who is who is translating French to Arabic and coming 1856 01:30:14.520 --> 01:30:18.199 back to this other guy in Arabic who was coming 1857 01:30:18.239 --> 01:30:19.199 back to me and French? 1858 01:30:20.000 --> 01:30:22.880 And then you're having it translated into English in your mind. Oh, 1859 01:30:22.880 --> 01:30:24.680 and then I have to write in English. 1860 01:30:24.880 --> 01:30:27.039 Like the amount of time it takes to ask a 1861 01:30:27.079 --> 01:30:30.479 single question when you have this telephone game going on, 1862 01:30:30.680 --> 01:30:31.199 even when. 1863 01:30:31.159 --> 01:30:33.479 You have time available, it's crazy. 1864 01:30:33.720 --> 01:30:35.399 Like those are some of the things you find yourself 1865 01:30:35.399 --> 01:30:37.960 doing like this, like this is what I signed up for. 1866 01:30:38.000 --> 01:30:41.199 It's awesome. I loved that. I loved it every second. 1867 01:30:41.359 --> 01:30:43.760 So having the government pay for your massages. 1868 01:30:43.880 --> 01:30:47.359 That's right, man, Those things are expense. You're ten dollars 1869 01:30:47.399 --> 01:30:50.000 hard working. You heard it here first. 1870 01:30:51.279 --> 01:30:52.399 So what what was it? 1871 01:30:52.439 --> 01:30:54.199 You had some pretty good trips, it sounds like, with 1872 01:30:54.279 --> 01:30:56.760 the agency and learning your job and having a good 1873 01:30:56.760 --> 01:30:57.359 time doing it. 1874 01:30:57.560 --> 01:30:58.680 Why did you end up leaving? 1875 01:31:00.720 --> 01:31:03.760 It was so hard for me to leave that place, 1876 01:31:04.079 --> 01:31:06.279 even the bureaucracy of it. 1877 01:31:06.399 --> 01:31:06.960 I loved it. 1878 01:31:07.239 --> 01:31:10.399 I love everything about that place. In the military, I 1879 01:31:10.399 --> 01:31:13.000 didn't have the same impression. I enjoyed being downrange, like 1880 01:31:13.000 --> 01:31:15.840 when I was out flying in combat, I loved it, 1881 01:31:16.319 --> 01:31:18.600 But the garrison environment in the military I didn't like 1882 01:31:19.319 --> 01:31:21.760 at the agency. Even if you're at headquarters, which is 1883 01:31:21.840 --> 01:31:24.439 kind of like being banished to Siberia. Everybody wants to 1884 01:31:24.439 --> 01:31:27.920 be out in the field in stations. But even at headquarters, 1885 01:31:27.960 --> 01:31:31.880 like every day you're dealing with front page news, like 1886 01:31:32.119 --> 01:31:35.039 the issue of the day and what's going on, and 1887 01:31:35.680 --> 01:31:39.479 you're reading about stuff that's happening that just blows your 1888 01:31:39.479 --> 01:31:40.439 mind amazing. 1889 01:31:40.479 --> 01:31:43.880 Ops. Right, So for me, it was really tough to leave. 1890 01:31:44.479 --> 01:31:48.720 But I'm married to an attorney who has a great career, 1891 01:31:49.079 --> 01:31:51.399 and moving every two years is not easy. I have 1892 01:31:51.560 --> 01:31:54.680 three boys, the oldest is fourteen. When we moved here 1893 01:31:54.720 --> 01:31:58.399 to California for my last job, he had moved eleven times. 1894 01:31:59.159 --> 01:32:01.800 So to me, it was a little bit of all right, 1895 01:32:02.920 --> 01:32:04.880 And I do like I would ask you guys the 1896 01:32:04.920 --> 01:32:07.640 same question. Like for me, I feel like I am 1897 01:32:07.680 --> 01:32:10.560 one of maybe five percent of the human population that's 1898 01:32:10.600 --> 01:32:12.840 gotten to do the job that they love to do, 1899 01:32:13.279 --> 01:32:15.399 you know, even though I only did it for eight years. 1900 01:32:16.239 --> 01:32:19.520 I wouldn't pass that up for anything else. And at 1901 01:32:19.520 --> 01:32:21.640 some point I felt like I had to move on 1902 01:32:21.760 --> 01:32:24.239 and put some other people's lives ahead of mine. But 1903 01:32:24.279 --> 01:32:26.039 I would ask you, guys, if you feel that way 1904 01:32:26.079 --> 01:32:27.199 about your time in service. 1905 01:32:27.720 --> 01:32:29.399 Yeah, it was like a little kid that wants to 1906 01:32:29.439 --> 01:32:30.159 be an astronaut. 1907 01:32:30.239 --> 01:32:32.319 I got to walk on the moon, you know, that's 1908 01:32:32.359 --> 01:32:35.840 how it feels like so, but like you, I felt 1909 01:32:35.880 --> 01:32:38.840 like I did the right thing and listing and doing 1910 01:32:38.920 --> 01:32:41.079 the job, but when I got out, it was also 1911 01:32:41.119 --> 01:32:42.399 the right time for me to get out. 1912 01:32:43.039 --> 01:32:48.720 Yeah, yeah, I agree, like I lived pretty much every 1913 01:32:48.760 --> 01:32:54.199 dream I had and also, like you, and one of 1914 01:32:54.239 --> 01:32:56.760 the things we've talked about before is, you know, there's 1915 01:32:56.800 --> 01:32:59.199 this idea of thank you for your service, but everything 1916 01:32:59.199 --> 01:33:03.399 that we did what there. I'm not saying we didn't 1917 01:33:03.560 --> 01:33:05.520 want to serve, but there was also a sort of 1918 01:33:05.520 --> 01:33:07.560 a selfish intent behind it. We did it because we 1919 01:33:07.600 --> 01:33:10.640 wanted to, like we were living out our dreams. And yeah, 1920 01:33:10.640 --> 01:33:13.119 at a certain point, you know, you have to wonder 1921 01:33:13.119 --> 01:33:17.119 if the people in your life if that's fair to them. Sure, 1922 01:33:17.760 --> 01:33:21.520 and you know, uh, like you know, and you have 1923 01:33:21.560 --> 01:33:25.199 to make decisions based on other people. 1924 01:33:26.000 --> 01:33:29.920 Yeah, So I still miss it to this day, Like 1925 01:33:29.960 --> 01:33:32.840 I'd take anything to go back and do that, but 1926 01:33:33.119 --> 01:33:34.079 you know, it's a one way door. 1927 01:33:34.119 --> 01:33:35.439 You can't go back in there. 1928 01:33:35.399 --> 01:33:38.960 Right right Well, And and the other thing is is 1929 01:33:39.479 --> 01:33:41.840 you did leave for a reason, and even though you 1930 01:33:41.920 --> 01:33:45.680 miss it, that reason wouldn't change. If you went back 1931 01:33:45.720 --> 01:33:47.520 and like started living again, then the other than the 1932 01:33:47.560 --> 01:33:50.319 people you're attached to, would also go back to. 1933 01:33:50.640 --> 01:33:52.680 Oh no, I'd be divorced. That's how it would go down. 1934 01:33:52.720 --> 01:33:54.680 So the only thing I like more than the agency 1935 01:33:54.760 --> 01:33:55.439 is my wife. 1936 01:33:55.520 --> 01:33:59.039 So yeah, let's let's hit up some of your questions 1937 01:33:59.039 --> 01:34:01.079 and then we'll talk about you know, getting out and 1938 01:34:01.119 --> 01:34:03.840 your your kind of post service life and combat story 1939 01:34:03.880 --> 01:34:04.800 and what you're up to now. 1940 01:34:06.479 --> 01:34:08.159 So Dickie, thank you very much. 1941 01:34:08.319 --> 01:34:13.279 He said, great guests looking at his background and great guests. Yeah, absolutely, 1942 01:34:13.439 --> 01:34:16.800 I think he meant the background of you know, your 1943 01:34:17.439 --> 01:34:20.199 I love me Wall, but that's right. 1944 01:34:20.279 --> 01:34:22.199 Yeah, the IYE was cool once Wall. 1945 01:34:22.600 --> 01:34:28.319 Yeah, Yeah, I mean we all have them. Jackson, thank you. Ryan. 1946 01:34:28.319 --> 01:34:32.600 Did you ever work with Brown Branch or Special Activities? 1947 01:34:32.680 --> 01:34:34.880 What were your experiences like with them? Also did you 1948 01:34:34.880 --> 01:34:36.560 have any interest maybe trying out for them? And we 1949 01:34:36.600 --> 01:34:37.680 talked about that a little bit. 1950 01:34:39.119 --> 01:34:39.520 I did. 1951 01:34:39.680 --> 01:34:42.520 Yeah, So I worked with them, and there were days 1952 01:34:42.520 --> 01:34:45.319 when I was at the agency where there's one guy 1953 01:34:45.359 --> 01:34:49.960 that kind of controls their pipeline. And because I had 1954 01:34:49.960 --> 01:34:52.479 this aviation background, like I was a really good fit 1955 01:34:52.720 --> 01:34:55.439 and I very easily could have walked in there. And 1956 01:34:55.479 --> 01:34:58.199 this guy, I mean, he's been around a long time. 1957 01:34:58.239 --> 01:35:00.880 He's a good reputation. So it was hard for me 1958 01:35:00.960 --> 01:35:03.039 not to join. But again, like I would have been 1959 01:35:03.079 --> 01:35:05.520 away from the family and I wouldn't have had this 1960 01:35:05.840 --> 01:35:08.399 experience that I did. So I elected not to do that, 1961 01:35:08.920 --> 01:35:10.560 and I often wish that I did. But I worked 1962 01:35:10.600 --> 01:35:14.359 with those guys and I was impressed as hell with them. 1963 01:35:14.479 --> 01:35:19.479 Like it's a really great crop of officers. I mean 1964 01:35:19.880 --> 01:35:22.439 from where they came from. They I think the impression 1965 01:35:22.479 --> 01:35:24.039 is they all come from Delta, but that's not the 1966 01:35:24.079 --> 01:35:26.840 case at all. Like you got different special operators, got 1967 01:35:26.880 --> 01:35:29.520 a lot of Marines in there. They just for whatever reason, 1968 01:35:29.560 --> 01:35:33.319 they do great work in this place. And seeing them 1969 01:35:33.359 --> 01:35:36.399 operate both in the PMO role and then when they 1970 01:35:36.439 --> 01:35:42.159 go over to traditional case officer roles every few few cycles, 1971 01:35:42.600 --> 01:35:46.199 you know they do great work. And some of some 1972 01:35:46.279 --> 01:35:49.520 of my best friendships were with those guys, I would say, 1973 01:35:49.560 --> 01:35:53.039 and they're crazy. They get to do some crazy stuff. 1974 01:35:53.079 --> 01:35:56.840 One guy was like he rolled into his very nice 1975 01:35:56.880 --> 01:35:59.039 apartment in this part of the world and had his 1976 01:35:59.199 --> 01:36:02.359 like parashute gear, you know, like I sure as hell 1977 01:36:02.479 --> 01:36:04.279 was not doing anything like that, and I thought that 1978 01:36:04.439 --> 01:36:05.159 was super cool. 1979 01:36:07.920 --> 01:36:10.600 Ardie, thank you very much, he said, A ten was 1980 01:36:10.640 --> 01:36:17.880 my weapon system avionics engineer. That's a smart guys there, 1981 01:36:18.279 --> 01:36:21.760 And Jackson, thank you again. Is there a Soft Slash 1982 01:36:21.760 --> 01:36:25.560 CT unit member that you haven't interviewed covered yet that 1983 01:36:25.680 --> 01:36:29.239 you really want to? And he said, also, thanks for 1984 01:36:29.279 --> 01:36:30.600 all the work you Jack and David. 1985 01:36:30.760 --> 01:36:37.359 Yes, so from my podcast basically from Combat Story. Yeah, yeah, 1986 01:36:37.399 --> 01:36:40.840 So I will say every single person who leaves a 1987 01:36:40.880 --> 01:36:43.119 comment asked me to interview Pat mack So. 1988 01:36:43.159 --> 01:36:44.800 I don't know if you guys have interviewed him or not, 1989 01:36:45.199 --> 01:36:45.720 but I have not. 1990 01:36:46.560 --> 01:36:50.560 So it Actually he taught a shooting course to my 1991 01:36:50.800 --> 01:36:53.840 brother's company once and that's the first time I heard 1992 01:36:53.840 --> 01:36:56.359 of him, and I would love to interview him just 1993 01:36:56.399 --> 01:36:57.079 for many reasons. 1994 01:36:57.079 --> 01:37:00.600 But he's great. I interviewed him on a previous podcast 1995 01:37:00.680 --> 01:37:02.279 years ago. He's really good. 1996 01:37:02.319 --> 01:37:03.840 He's a really good guy. 1997 01:37:03.960 --> 01:37:06.279 Yeah, he just seems like it. So I think I 1998 01:37:06.279 --> 01:37:09.399 think that's out there. But I would say, and just David, 1999 01:37:09.439 --> 01:37:11.199 just make sure you were saying a soft guy or 2000 01:37:11.199 --> 01:37:12.159 a non soft guy. 2001 01:37:12.520 --> 01:37:15.239 Is there a soft or sleet team member, but really 2002 01:37:15.239 --> 01:37:17.039 we can help this up. Is there anybody? 2003 01:37:18.319 --> 01:37:21.920 So the number one person I want to interview is 2004 01:37:21.960 --> 01:37:25.800 the guy who wrote No Easy Day. So the guy 2005 01:37:25.840 --> 01:37:27.960 who was number two in the stack to Kill Bin Laden. 2006 01:37:28.720 --> 01:37:31.399 I think his when he published the book, which the 2007 01:37:31.479 --> 01:37:32.800 Navy did not authorize. 2008 01:37:32.920 --> 01:37:36.439 I think the name was like Matt Bissonette. Bisonette. 2009 01:37:36.640 --> 01:37:43.039 Yeah, So I loved that book. I just really enjoyed 2010 01:37:43.039 --> 01:37:45.039 the way it was written. I mean it goes into 2011 01:37:45.039 --> 01:37:49.840 like getting into dev grew. It shows the conventional whatever, 2012 01:37:50.000 --> 01:37:54.239 the non dev gru seal life progression. And then I 2013 01:37:54.239 --> 01:37:57.560 think he comes back from this op from killing Bin 2014 01:37:57.600 --> 01:38:01.239 Laden and he goes to a Taco Bell drive through, 2015 01:38:01.479 --> 01:38:03.640 like in his pickup truck. He's got his country music on. 2016 01:38:04.640 --> 01:38:07.479 He cruises up, he gets his Taco Bell, like twenty 2017 01:38:07.479 --> 01:38:12.479 four hours before that, he's in Afghanistan, Pakistan, killing Ubl. 2018 01:38:12.960 --> 01:38:14.800 So I just there was something about that that I 2019 01:38:14.840 --> 01:38:18.319 thought was so amazing and I would love to interview. 2020 01:38:18.359 --> 01:38:18.920 That guy. 2021 01:38:20.479 --> 01:38:23.800 Was there for you when you did your combat tour 2022 01:38:23.920 --> 01:38:27.399 as a helicopter pilot and then coming back to the States. 2023 01:38:27.840 --> 01:38:29.960 Was there a decompression period for you? 2024 01:38:30.119 --> 01:38:34.760 Was there a like sort of this surreal juxtaposition thank 2025 01:38:34.960 --> 01:38:35.640 time for you. 2026 01:38:36.680 --> 01:38:38.279 I mean I had a lot of trouble coming back, 2027 01:38:38.319 --> 01:38:40.760 and I had lived in a lot of these places. 2028 01:38:40.840 --> 01:38:43.640 I mean we were in Afghanistan. I spent four years 2029 01:38:43.640 --> 01:38:46.079 in my life in Pakistan, so like I knew this place. 2030 01:38:46.119 --> 01:38:48.439 I almost fired a hell fire. I think I fired 2031 01:38:48.439 --> 01:38:50.640 one into Pakistan. Actually, So if we want to regroup 2032 01:38:50.680 --> 01:38:53.960 on that one day and ken, yeah, no, it's all good. 2033 01:38:54.000 --> 01:38:56.439 It's all recorded, so you couldn't get away from it. 2034 01:38:57.920 --> 01:38:59.399 But yeah, coming back was tough for me. 2035 01:38:59.560 --> 01:39:01.399 I think. So I had a. 2036 01:39:02.960 --> 01:39:05.359 Year old son at the time that day where I 2037 01:39:05.359 --> 01:39:07.439 thought I was going to die, Like you know, that 2038 01:39:07.800 --> 01:39:09.520 meant a lot to me. I came back and I 2039 01:39:09.560 --> 01:39:11.920 wrote an email to a friend of mine, my best 2040 01:39:11.920 --> 01:39:13.239 man at my wedding, and I said, hey, man, I 2041 01:39:13.279 --> 01:39:14.920 don't know if I'm going to make it back, Like 2042 01:39:15.000 --> 01:39:18.319 make sure that Owen, my son like grows up to 2043 01:39:18.319 --> 01:39:20.239 be like a normal kid and does all right, and 2044 01:39:20.359 --> 01:39:22.720 look out for him, like guy had just resigned myself 2045 01:39:22.760 --> 01:39:25.239 that I might not make it, so coming back, I 2046 01:39:25.279 --> 01:39:27.479 think I still had that in my head. And my 2047 01:39:27.560 --> 01:39:30.640 wife noticed it immediately, Like she has known me since 2048 01:39:30.680 --> 01:39:34.600 we were fifteen. She seen me do everything stupid I've ever done. 2049 01:39:34.680 --> 01:39:37.239 She's seen it. She knows me so well, and she 2050 01:39:37.359 --> 01:39:40.239 saw it right away. And for years I was like, nah, 2051 01:39:40.319 --> 01:39:43.000 there's nothing going on until it really got bad. So 2052 01:39:43.319 --> 01:39:46.319 I would say we had a couple of days of decompression, David, 2053 01:39:46.359 --> 01:39:49.800 but it was you know, I didn't do well. 2054 01:39:49.600 --> 01:39:52.279 Coming back and how long did it take you? Or 2055 01:39:53.520 --> 01:39:56.199 I mean, how did you deal with that process? Do 2056 01:39:56.239 --> 01:40:00.720 you feel like you've come back from it poorly? 2057 01:40:00.840 --> 01:40:02.880 I dealt with it poorly, is the answer. 2058 01:40:03.119 --> 01:40:05.439 So early on, like it came to a breaking point 2059 01:40:05.479 --> 01:40:08.840 where my wife just said, hey, you're going to see 2060 01:40:08.840 --> 01:40:11.359 someone or we're done. And I will say, like, this 2061 01:40:11.399 --> 01:40:13.880 is an interesting part about the agency. The hardest training 2062 01:40:13.960 --> 01:40:18.880 I ever went through, like bar none was an advanced 2063 01:40:19.279 --> 01:40:23.079 course at the agency. Like it's very small classes and 2064 01:40:23.359 --> 01:40:26.199 incredibly intense. I was in there with like a mar 2065 01:40:26.319 --> 01:40:31.039 SoC GB guy and he said to me, he goes 2066 01:40:31.079 --> 01:40:33.680 I would go through ranger school. He had done Ranger school. 2067 01:40:33.680 --> 01:40:35.239 He's like, I would go through Ranger school three times 2068 01:40:35.239 --> 01:40:38.520 before I do this again. It was just soul crushing 2069 01:40:38.880 --> 01:40:40.960 and at the time, like my wife I came, it 2070 01:40:41.000 --> 01:40:43.119 was all from your home, which made it even worse, 2071 01:40:43.159 --> 01:40:45.640 Like it wasn't even you were deployed or gone. You 2072 01:40:45.640 --> 01:40:47.680 were coming home at night and not helpful at all. 2073 01:40:48.119 --> 01:40:51.279 And my wife was just crying like hey, I need 2074 01:40:51.319 --> 01:40:53.279 help here, and I left. You know, I was like, no, 2075 01:40:53.399 --> 01:40:55.159 I got this thing to do, you know, like that's 2076 01:40:55.199 --> 01:40:57.359 what my head space was at the time, until she 2077 01:40:57.479 --> 01:40:58.399 just put her foot down. 2078 01:40:58.840 --> 01:40:59.800 I went and got help. 2079 01:41:00.119 --> 01:41:03.920 I saw a psychologist, and I will say, like, I 2080 01:41:03.920 --> 01:41:07.319 know you guys interviewed Greg Kocher, who's awesome, and you 2081 01:41:07.359 --> 01:41:09.159 did a fantastic. 2082 01:41:08.600 --> 01:41:09.399 Job at that interview. 2083 01:41:09.439 --> 01:41:12.520 I ended up interviewing him after seeing your guys interview 2084 01:41:12.560 --> 01:41:15.840 with him, But like he is the pinnacle for me, 2085 01:41:15.920 --> 01:41:17.640 Like he was a little burg gun pilot, you know, 2086 01:41:17.680 --> 01:41:20.640 he flew Cobra's an apaches And to hear him talk 2087 01:41:20.640 --> 01:41:23.600 about PTSD, I hated, like I would never in my 2088 01:41:23.680 --> 01:41:25.520 life have said to guys like you, I could have 2089 01:41:25.560 --> 01:41:28.439 had PTSD because I wasn't kicking down doors but to 2090 01:41:28.479 --> 01:41:30.279 hear a guy like Greg say it, I. 2091 01:41:30.199 --> 01:41:31.319 Feel more comfortable, right. 2092 01:41:32.000 --> 01:41:33.720 So I dealt with it, man, And I know, like 2093 01:41:34.000 --> 01:41:36.399 I would never hold that against any other pilot if 2094 01:41:36.399 --> 01:41:38.159 they had it, I would never hold it against him. 2095 01:41:38.199 --> 01:41:41.199 But that's just how all of us are. We feel 2096 01:41:41.239 --> 01:41:44.199 like we're we weren't Delta guys, so we can't have PTSD. 2097 01:41:44.319 --> 01:41:46.760 So I definitely I dealt with it. I'm in a 2098 01:41:46.880 --> 01:41:50.119 great spot now. But I hid that thing from the 2099 01:41:50.159 --> 01:41:51.680 agency as I went in for sure. 2100 01:41:51.920 --> 01:41:56.359 Yeah, now, when you were going through that process, I 2101 01:41:56.560 --> 01:41:59.479 were you cool with the first psychologist you found or 2102 01:41:59.479 --> 01:42:01.279 did you sort of have to shop to find somebody 2103 01:42:01.279 --> 01:42:02.520 who you felt rapport with? 2104 01:42:04.279 --> 01:42:06.800 So I went in, I did the I did the 2105 01:42:06.880 --> 01:42:10.159 VAS program, which I mean, I don't know if you 2106 01:42:10.159 --> 01:42:11.880 guys went through this at all. You don't have to 2107 01:42:11.880 --> 01:42:13.880 talk about it, but you know it takes a while 2108 01:42:13.960 --> 01:42:16.119 to get into the pipeline. So I was really lucky 2109 01:42:16.560 --> 01:42:18.720 that I had a paying job where I could pay 2110 01:42:18.720 --> 01:42:20.880 my own way to get a psychologist in the meantime. 2111 01:42:21.000 --> 01:42:23.439 So I found someone local who worked out and then 2112 01:42:23.439 --> 01:42:26.600 I went and did like a eight week VA program, 2113 01:42:26.680 --> 01:42:29.039 just one on one, which was really helpful. And to 2114 01:42:29.119 --> 01:42:31.760 this day, like probably changed everything for me. But then 2115 01:42:31.800 --> 01:42:34.359 I went back to this local psychologist who I stayed 2116 01:42:34.399 --> 01:42:37.960 with for a couple of years quite honestly, and I 2117 01:42:37.960 --> 01:42:39.840 will say, and I'd be interested to hear your guys 2118 01:42:40.199 --> 01:42:43.279 take on it, But for me, I was an extremely 2119 01:42:43.439 --> 01:42:46.439 high functioning person at work and a train wreck at 2120 01:42:46.439 --> 01:42:47.279 home because of this. 2121 01:42:47.600 --> 01:42:51.319 Yeah, yeah, I definitely became that, Yeah for sure. 2122 01:42:51.479 --> 01:42:54.119 Yeah, And I I mean, I don't I think everybody 2123 01:42:54.199 --> 01:42:56.079 like manifestor deals with it differently. 2124 01:42:56.560 --> 01:42:59.479 I think avoidance is is a common thing, you know, 2125 01:42:59.520 --> 01:43:00.560 but a. 2126 01:43:00.560 --> 01:43:04.479 Workaholic mentality is a way to yeah too, Yeah, yeah 2127 01:43:04.520 --> 01:43:04.960 for sure. 2128 01:43:05.479 --> 01:43:07.600 Yeah, Now I think it's really common. 2129 01:43:07.800 --> 01:43:09.600 And I think that you know, it's funny that you 2130 01:43:09.640 --> 01:43:13.319 say that as a pilot because you weren't kicking indoors, 2131 01:43:13.840 --> 01:43:16.800 like it would be hard to say that, but even 2132 01:43:17.279 --> 01:43:19.319 I think if you were to, you know, talk to 2133 01:43:19.359 --> 01:43:21.960 guys and dealt or whatever, it would always be well, 2134 01:43:22.039 --> 01:43:25.319 these people had it worse. So who am I Like, 2135 01:43:25.479 --> 01:43:27.800 there's always that next notch where you're always like, well 2136 01:43:27.840 --> 01:43:29.199 this this isn't you know. 2137 01:43:30.720 --> 01:43:32.520 Yeah, It's just one of those things. 2138 01:43:32.560 --> 01:43:36.399 So so where did combat story? 2139 01:43:36.479 --> 01:43:37.640 Like, where did you go from there. 2140 01:43:38.920 --> 01:43:42.239 So when we decided we were we as a family like, hey, 2141 01:43:42.279 --> 01:43:44.720 I'm getting out of this lifestyle. We got to find 2142 01:43:44.760 --> 01:43:47.560 something else. It took me a long time to wrap 2143 01:43:47.600 --> 01:43:49.199 my head around what am I going to do next? 2144 01:43:50.000 --> 01:43:53.319 And one of the cool things about the agency is 2145 01:43:53.319 --> 01:43:54.840 you go visit some really cool places. 2146 01:43:54.880 --> 01:43:55.359 So I was. 2147 01:43:55.319 --> 01:44:02.079 In a unique, really nice resort in between ops and 2148 01:44:02.119 --> 01:44:04.680 I was just sitting there looking at this amazing view 2149 01:44:05.359 --> 01:44:07.159 and writing down, like I took a whole day just 2150 01:44:07.159 --> 01:44:09.520 sitting there writing out what else could I go do? 2151 01:44:09.640 --> 01:44:11.720 And I thought if I could just sit around and 2152 01:44:11.760 --> 01:44:14.239 talk to folks who did this, who were in it, 2153 01:44:14.439 --> 01:44:16.760 like no shit in it, and what it was like 2154 01:44:16.800 --> 01:44:18.520 for them, I'd be happy, Like I could do that 2155 01:44:18.560 --> 01:44:20.000 for the rest of my life. And I know you 2156 01:44:20.000 --> 01:44:22.159 guys do that, so you know, you get it, you 2157 01:44:22.279 --> 01:44:25.279 understand it, and so that's what I wanted to do. 2158 01:44:25.319 --> 01:44:26.880 So I asked the agency if I could do it. 2159 01:44:26.960 --> 01:44:29.840 They said I could. I could record these things, but 2160 01:44:29.920 --> 01:44:33.359 I couldn't air them so until I was out. So 2161 01:44:33.479 --> 01:44:37.000 I did three interviews, got out, and then a year 2162 01:44:37.039 --> 01:44:39.920 after I was gone, I was able to release these things. 2163 01:44:39.960 --> 01:44:42.760 So I've I kind of went into it full on 2164 01:44:42.960 --> 01:44:45.680 after that. So I started in twenty seventeen but didn't 2165 01:44:45.680 --> 01:44:49.000 release my first one until November of twenty twenty. 2166 01:44:49.119 --> 01:44:52.239 Wow, and how who was your first guest? 2167 01:44:54.119 --> 01:44:57.720 So my first guest was Elliott Ackerman. And I don't 2168 01:44:57.720 --> 01:45:00.760 know if you guys have interviewed him or not. He 2169 01:45:00.840 --> 01:45:03.800 was so he's he's written several best selling books, but 2170 01:45:03.840 --> 01:45:08.119 he was a marine. He was Marine Officer MARSK and 2171 01:45:08.159 --> 01:45:11.039 then he was a PMO and he did all of 2172 01:45:11.079 --> 01:45:14.760 that in eight years, so real tight grouping. But he 2173 01:45:14.840 --> 01:45:17.840 was a platoon leader in Fallujah to as a marine, 2174 01:45:18.399 --> 01:45:22.000 and he went down to like fifty percent strength on 2175 01:45:22.359 --> 01:45:24.960 his first twenty four hours, like he's on a rooftop 2176 01:45:25.000 --> 01:45:28.720 and half his platoon is wiped out, like literally combat ineffective. 2177 01:45:29.399 --> 01:45:33.159 And it was It was funny because we met up 2178 01:45:33.159 --> 01:45:34.920 and I was like, hey, I'm actually at the agency 2179 01:45:34.960 --> 01:45:36.680 and he's like, oh, funny because I was too. And 2180 01:45:36.720 --> 01:45:38.840 we went into a hotel room because it was before 2181 01:45:38.960 --> 01:45:41.359 zoom stuff. It was like we were doing an asset, 2182 01:45:41.760 --> 01:45:45.159 Like I had little food set out so he felt comfortable, 2183 01:45:45.279 --> 01:45:48.479 and you know, it was in person. We recorded it, 2184 01:45:49.119 --> 01:45:51.039 but it was it was audio only. But I just 2185 01:45:51.159 --> 01:45:52.720 I got hooked on it. And the second guy I 2186 01:45:52.760 --> 01:45:54.760 interviewed was this dude I was talking about JT. 2187 01:45:54.880 --> 01:45:56.239 Snow who's this warrant officer? 2188 01:45:56.279 --> 01:45:59.119 And that was almost like a release for me to 2189 01:45:59.159 --> 01:46:01.319 hear him say, Hey, the worst day I ever had 2190 01:46:01.319 --> 01:46:04.079 in four thousand hours of flying for the same ten 2191 01:46:04.159 --> 01:46:06.560 hours I was with you, you know, like that meant 2192 01:46:06.560 --> 01:46:08.159 a lot to me to hear it from a guy 2193 01:46:08.239 --> 01:46:09.159 who was that season. 2194 01:46:09.560 --> 01:46:13.039 Right, Yeah, that's fascinating. I miss one question I want 2195 01:46:13.039 --> 01:46:15.159 to get you, jim Ga, thank you very much. He said, 2196 01:46:15.199 --> 01:46:17.640 how much do you miss flying? Have you considered trying 2197 01:46:17.680 --> 01:46:19.840 to get National Guard or reserve flight slots? 2198 01:46:21.119 --> 01:46:23.319 So I don't miss it that much? 2199 01:46:23.399 --> 01:46:26.000 And I will say this is interesting about the flight community, 2200 01:46:26.039 --> 01:46:28.600 the aviation community. When you go up for the first 2201 01:46:28.680 --> 01:46:31.840 day that you're in the air the first time, for 2202 01:46:31.920 --> 01:46:36.439 a lot of guys and girls, it is a monumental 2203 01:46:36.720 --> 01:46:40.239 day in your life, like you've been watching aircraft since 2204 01:46:40.239 --> 01:46:42.159 you were five. You just want to get up there. 2205 01:46:42.720 --> 01:46:45.199 For me and there are others like me. For me, 2206 01:46:45.479 --> 01:46:47.319 the only reason I wanted to be there was to 2207 01:46:47.319 --> 01:46:50.000 support guys on the ground, Like how can I get 2208 01:46:50.279 --> 01:46:52.680 to the front line to help these guys as quickly 2209 01:46:52.680 --> 01:46:55.760 as possible. So I didn't have a love of flying 2210 01:46:56.079 --> 01:46:57.720 as much as I did. I just wanted to be 2211 01:46:57.840 --> 01:47:01.199 where the action was. So I don't have that love. 2212 01:47:01.399 --> 01:47:03.880 But I will say my fourteen year old wants to fly, 2213 01:47:04.399 --> 01:47:06.079 and I would love to be the one who teaches 2214 01:47:06.119 --> 01:47:08.439 him to fly. So I'm trying to use my GI 2215 01:47:08.560 --> 01:47:12.279 bill to get back in and get an instructor pilot certification. 2216 01:47:12.720 --> 01:47:16.079 But it's hard when you've got PTSD. So I will say, 2217 01:47:16.079 --> 01:47:18.880 like I didn't realize that it makes sense. They don't 2218 01:47:18.880 --> 01:47:20.680 really want you flying, so there's a lot of hoops 2219 01:47:20.680 --> 01:47:22.199 you got to jump through, so it's a while before 2220 01:47:22.239 --> 01:47:22.680 I do that. 2221 01:47:23.039 --> 01:47:25.960 Do you, out of curiosity, do you think that sort 2222 01:47:25.960 --> 01:47:30.880 of the stigma around post traumatic stress and like you 2223 01:47:30.920 --> 01:47:33.199 just said, it's kind of hard when you have PTSD, 2224 01:47:34.560 --> 01:47:37.039 do you think that those types of issues, those types 2225 01:47:37.039 --> 01:47:41.159 of stigmas make guys or make people, I should say, 2226 01:47:41.199 --> 01:47:44.720 make people reluctant to come forward for treatments if they're 2227 01:47:44.720 --> 01:47:46.000 going to get a diagnosis. 2228 01:47:47.760 --> 01:47:51.479 Yeah, I do. I think it's more my opinion. I 2229 01:47:51.520 --> 01:47:54.079 think it's more acceptable now for us to say to 2230 01:47:54.159 --> 01:47:56.760 each other that we have it, we're fifteen years ago, 2231 01:47:56.840 --> 01:47:59.920 I think we wouldn't say, like the three of us 2232 01:48:00.000 --> 01:48:02.640 probably wouldn't say much about that. But so I think 2233 01:48:02.680 --> 01:48:07.039 in that setting it's more acceptable to talk about it. 2234 01:48:07.119 --> 01:48:10.039 But I will say, even at the agency or the military, 2235 01:48:10.119 --> 01:48:11.880 I think there's still a fear that if you say 2236 01:48:11.920 --> 01:48:14.800 you have that, if it's found out, you're coming off 2237 01:48:15.560 --> 01:48:18.399 the line. Like nobody wants to go sit at if 2238 01:48:18.439 --> 01:48:20.840 you're doing the jobs we were doing. Nobody wants to 2239 01:48:20.840 --> 01:48:24.479 go sit at a desk, right, and that's where you're 2240 01:48:24.520 --> 01:48:26.960 going to get put. So I don't know how you 2241 01:48:27.039 --> 01:48:30.039 square that, but I will say, and Jack, you mentioned it, 2242 01:48:30.079 --> 01:48:33.880 like you can be highly functioning and focused at work 2243 01:48:33.920 --> 01:48:36.760 with this. It's just you have other things where where 2244 01:48:36.760 --> 01:48:39.039 you need the outlets. So I think there's a happy medium. 2245 01:48:39.439 --> 01:48:41.640 But right now, I think people are still reluctant to 2246 01:48:41.720 --> 01:48:44.479 admit that they have it because they're afraid they won't 2247 01:48:44.479 --> 01:48:46.239 get to do what they want to do right. 2248 01:48:46.479 --> 01:48:48.520 And I think a lot of that. I mean, and 2249 01:48:48.600 --> 01:48:51.760 I'm a little bit older, and like in the seventies 2250 01:48:51.760 --> 01:48:57.079 and eighties, there there was this thing about postraumatic stress 2251 01:48:57.119 --> 01:49:00.720 with Vietnam veterans, and they would on TV in the movies, 2252 01:49:00.840 --> 01:49:02.159 it would be like they would. 2253 01:49:01.880 --> 01:49:03.960 Go they would go crazy. 2254 01:49:04.279 --> 01:49:06.600 It was Mel Gibson sitting on the houseboat holding a 2255 01:49:06.600 --> 01:49:08.479 Burretta to his head looking at the picture of his 2256 01:49:08.560 --> 01:49:11.399 dead wife. That's like how we thought of PTSD. 2257 01:49:11.039 --> 01:49:14.399 Well, and before that it was like somebody like snap 2258 01:49:14.439 --> 01:49:18.720 having flashbacks and snapping in the office, you know, up 2259 01:49:18.720 --> 01:49:21.000 at a belt own and not being able to differentiate 2260 01:49:21.279 --> 01:49:22.880 their flashback from reality. 2261 01:49:23.960 --> 01:49:29.960 And that's you know, not the case, but brad oric ass. 2262 01:49:30.119 --> 01:49:32.800 Interesting thing you found out about your guests, Like, what 2263 01:49:32.840 --> 01:49:34.960 are some of the most surprising things you've found out? 2264 01:49:35.880 --> 01:49:39.359 Yeah, so I will say I'd be curious to hear 2265 01:49:39.359 --> 01:49:43.199 this from you guys as well. For the Tier one operators, 2266 01:49:44.319 --> 01:49:47.199 one of the consistent themes I've seen there are two, 2267 01:49:47.720 --> 01:49:50.560 and one of them is visualization techniques, which I did 2268 01:49:50.560 --> 01:49:55.479 not expect to see and a different kind of no 2269 01:49:55.640 --> 01:49:59.039 quit mentality. So almost every one of them I've interviewed, Right, 2270 01:49:59.079 --> 01:50:03.920 so Dev Drew or Delta or whatever, we'll say that 2271 01:50:04.000 --> 01:50:06.960 they had these visualization techniques where they sit down and 2272 01:50:07.039 --> 01:50:10.640 think through operations or how something's gonna go and what 2273 01:50:10.680 --> 01:50:15.159 they'll do to react, whether it's CQB or I don't know, 2274 01:50:15.720 --> 01:50:18.520 but I've definitely heard professional athletes do it, and so 2275 01:50:18.600 --> 01:50:22.119 it doesn't surprise me that they do it, but that 2276 01:50:22.439 --> 01:50:24.399 I've heard it from almost every one of them, and 2277 01:50:24.439 --> 01:50:27.159 not just the tier one like you know, Jack and David. 2278 01:50:27.159 --> 01:50:29.159 I'd be curious if you guys saw it where you were, 2279 01:50:29.520 --> 01:50:31.960 because you guys were in the elite communities as well. 2280 01:50:32.760 --> 01:50:35.359 Was this something that was taught to you guys from psychologists? 2281 01:50:35.800 --> 01:50:40.319 Not taught? Definitely not. But I think it's something that like. 2282 01:50:39.479 --> 01:50:44.720 Like snipers for sure, think through the shots and visualize it, 2283 01:50:44.800 --> 01:50:46.840 like before you're going out onto the range or as 2284 01:50:46.840 --> 01:50:49.000 you're going out onto the range. I think there's some 2285 01:50:49.039 --> 01:50:53.279 of that internal visualization. But and they probably should train 2286 01:50:53.399 --> 01:50:56.159 guys to do that sort of that sort of thing. 2287 01:50:56.199 --> 01:50:58.640 I'm sure there's some sort of benefit there. 2288 01:50:59.279 --> 01:51:01.840 Yeah, I remember, Oh go ahead, no. 2289 01:51:01.560 --> 01:51:03.479 No, no, go ahead. I was just gonna say that. 2290 01:51:03.560 --> 01:51:06.479 I think visualization kind of comes naturally, Like even at CQB, 2291 01:51:06.720 --> 01:51:10.239 like you you know, you, especially after our run, as 2292 01:51:10.239 --> 01:51:13.880 you didn't do it well, you like you see yourself. 2293 01:51:13.560 --> 01:51:17.159 Doing it well, you know, over and over again, even. 2294 01:51:17.039 --> 01:51:18.880 If you're just kind of beating yourself up about it. 2295 01:51:18.920 --> 01:51:22.000 Oh man, you know, but you're still seeing, you're still 2296 01:51:22.039 --> 01:51:23.000 working that process. 2297 01:51:23.000 --> 01:51:24.800 And the way some of the instructors work too, is 2298 01:51:24.800 --> 01:51:27.279 they're trying to like put you in that position, like 2299 01:51:27.479 --> 01:51:30.319 the walk through phase of it, so you can visualize, right, 2300 01:51:30.399 --> 01:51:32.079 like this is what the right way looks like? 2301 01:51:32.399 --> 01:51:35.439 You know? Yeah, I love hearing that. 2302 01:51:36.600 --> 01:51:38.640 I haven't done that often, but I remember, like, there's 2303 01:51:38.800 --> 01:51:40.760 there's a key phase in flight school where you do 2304 01:51:40.800 --> 01:51:43.720 instrument training, so you're only using instruments to fly around. 2305 01:51:43.760 --> 01:51:46.159 It can be pretty tough. And I really did that 2306 01:51:46.279 --> 01:51:48.960 before that particular exercise. I got like a ninety eight 2307 01:51:49.079 --> 01:51:51.640 or ninety nine on it. It's unheard of, just very rare, 2308 01:51:52.279 --> 01:51:55.159 and I just thought through all of these scenarios, so 2309 01:51:55.199 --> 01:51:57.079 I can see the value in it, and I almost 2310 01:51:57.119 --> 01:51:59.920 wish I could bring it out in corporate America. How 2311 01:52:00.119 --> 01:52:01.880 do I do that for my day? How do I 2312 01:52:02.000 --> 01:52:03.880 ramp up for a meeting I'm going to have on 2313 01:52:03.960 --> 01:52:06.439 zoom right right? I don't know how you visualize that, 2314 01:52:06.479 --> 01:52:09.359 but I love to do that. But the other one 2315 01:52:09.560 --> 01:52:11.920 was this no quit mentality. And I think I don't 2316 01:52:11.920 --> 01:52:15.600 mean to be cliche about it, but some of these 2317 01:52:15.640 --> 01:52:17.920 guys I've talked to have just said, yeah, you know, 2318 01:52:18.000 --> 01:52:20.640 like I'm in selection, this other guy's about to quit, 2319 01:52:20.680 --> 01:52:23.000 and I'm thinking to myself, like, you're going to have 2320 01:52:23.039 --> 01:52:26.840 to pull me out of here with my cold dead 2321 01:52:26.920 --> 01:52:30.039 hands before I quit on this thing. It's like another 2322 01:52:30.199 --> 01:52:32.800 level of that, and and I've just felt it in 2323 01:52:32.880 --> 01:52:34.800 all of these interviews with these folks. 2324 01:52:34.880 --> 01:52:37.920 Well, it's interesting because we've talked about this with previous 2325 01:52:37.960 --> 01:52:41.640 guests too, that for most I think for most people, 2326 01:52:41.680 --> 01:52:44.039 going through a selection, like quitting isn't even an option. 2327 01:52:44.279 --> 01:52:47.079 Like selection is just the thing you do to get 2328 01:52:47.079 --> 01:52:51.359 the job you want. It's not like this big obstacle. 2329 01:52:52.119 --> 01:52:53.439 I mean, you want to train up for it, you 2330 01:52:53.520 --> 01:52:56.560 want to be ready for it, but like quitting is 2331 01:52:56.600 --> 01:52:59.560 never It's like it's like quitting on your commute to work. 2332 01:53:00.319 --> 01:53:02.520 It's like, oh, the drives ton to get to work. 2333 01:53:02.800 --> 01:53:04.520 I'm not going to do it. But that's what like 2334 01:53:04.600 --> 01:53:07.680 quitting a selection would feel like. It's like this is 2335 01:53:07.760 --> 01:53:08.560 this is just the. 2336 01:53:08.520 --> 01:53:12.479 Commute to get to my job, you know, folks. 2337 01:53:12.560 --> 01:53:15.119 I just want to remind everyone out there, please like 2338 01:53:15.319 --> 01:53:18.159 the video, subscribe to the channel down in the description. 2339 01:53:18.279 --> 01:53:19.880 You can find a link to our Patreon if you 2340 01:53:19.880 --> 01:53:23.960 want to support us. Check us out on Instagram. What 2341 01:53:24.279 --> 01:53:24.800 am I missing? 2342 01:53:24.840 --> 01:53:25.800 David the Oh? 2343 01:53:26.119 --> 01:53:30.319 Definitely check out Ryan Combat Story on YouTube and also 2344 01:53:30.840 --> 01:53:31.640 probably every. 2345 01:53:31.399 --> 01:53:35.199 Podcast Ptagram yep, yeah, yep, on on all the other 2346 01:53:35.279 --> 01:53:36.159 audio what's. 2347 01:53:36.039 --> 01:53:38.600 Your what's your Instagram title? Handle? 2348 01:53:38.720 --> 01:53:41.920 At at Combat Story and at Combat Story right what uh? 2349 01:53:42.479 --> 01:53:44.279 As we're start kind of wrapping it up here, what 2350 01:53:44.479 --> 01:53:46.439 is how has Combat Story evolved? 2351 01:53:46.479 --> 01:53:48.079 And where do you see it going into the future? 2352 01:53:48.119 --> 01:53:49.600 What do we have? What do you have in store 2353 01:53:49.640 --> 01:53:50.359 for us? 2354 01:53:52.000 --> 01:53:54.880 So, I mean, first of all, I really enjoyed the 2355 01:53:54.920 --> 01:53:58.039 team ass genuinely and the fact that you thanks you 2356 01:53:58.039 --> 01:54:01.720 guys are talking not just to to operators but also 2357 01:54:01.960 --> 01:54:05.600 on the intel side, law enforcement, Like I really appreciate 2358 01:54:05.680 --> 01:54:09.159 that angle. And I've had a lot of trouble personally 2359 01:54:09.199 --> 01:54:11.760 breaking into the intel space because it's so hard to 2360 01:54:11.800 --> 01:54:13.119 talk about some of these things. 2361 01:54:13.520 --> 01:54:14.920 It's just so sensitive, you know. 2362 01:54:15.039 --> 01:54:17.920 So I do know one day I will go down 2363 01:54:17.960 --> 01:54:20.520 that road and talk to those are my favorite stories 2364 01:54:20.640 --> 01:54:22.600 or hearing folks who are at the agency and these 2365 01:54:22.600 --> 01:54:24.199 things that they've done, and a lot of them will 2366 01:54:24.199 --> 01:54:27.800 never come out they can't, but I do see that 2367 01:54:28.359 --> 01:54:29.560 at some point. 2368 01:54:29.680 --> 01:54:29.960 But I. 2369 01:54:31.520 --> 01:54:36.960 Suspect For me, it'll be more it's my outlet to 2370 01:54:37.000 --> 01:54:40.479 stay connected to the veteran community. And I think what 2371 01:54:40.560 --> 01:54:42.800 I was surprised about with this, I'd be interested to 2372 01:54:42.800 --> 01:54:46.199 hear your guys take from the team house. The comments 2373 01:54:46.239 --> 01:54:48.119 that I get for the people who are reaching out 2374 01:54:48.640 --> 01:54:51.479 about hearing these stories from others and how it helps 2375 01:54:51.560 --> 01:54:54.960 them get through tough times, I didn't really expect, quite honestly, 2376 01:54:55.279 --> 01:54:57.600 and I think that's really cool. So I think as 2377 01:54:57.640 --> 01:55:00.199 long as people still feel that way about it, I'll 2378 01:55:00.199 --> 01:55:00.760 still do this. 2379 01:55:01.159 --> 01:55:01.640 Yeah. 2380 01:55:01.720 --> 01:55:05.279 Yeah, I've definitely uh, we've received comments like that, or 2381 01:55:05.319 --> 01:55:08.640 we've received comments like Viewers also feel like it's a 2382 01:55:08.640 --> 01:55:11.159 way for them to stay connected to the veterans community. 2383 01:55:11.640 --> 01:55:14.760 I even had a gold Star father reached out to 2384 01:55:14.840 --> 01:55:17.479 us at one point and said, I feel closer to 2385 01:55:17.560 --> 01:55:20.800 my son who is killed in combat through watching through 2386 01:55:20.840 --> 01:55:24.239 watching this show and hearing these stories. I'm like, I 2387 01:55:24.520 --> 01:55:26.359 don't even know how to respond to something like that. 2388 01:55:26.479 --> 01:55:30.600 Yeah, God, I mean that's super sad, But how great 2389 01:55:30.680 --> 01:55:33.680 is that that you guys had that impact on someone's life. 2390 01:55:33.840 --> 01:55:36.439 Yeah, it meant something to somebody in a way that 2391 01:55:36.479 --> 01:55:39.039 I could even that I can't even really comprehend you know, 2392 01:55:39.920 --> 01:55:40.319 and we. 2393 01:55:40.319 --> 01:55:42.119 Just want to say we love your show too, and 2394 01:55:42.119 --> 01:55:45.479 and we really if if you guys have not checked 2395 01:55:45.479 --> 01:55:48.319 out Combat Story, do so you If if you enjoy 2396 01:55:48.359 --> 01:55:50.840 the Team House, you're gonna you're gonna enjoy Combat Story 2397 01:55:50.920 --> 01:55:54.600 like you will love it. Ryan, You're a phenomenal host. 2398 01:55:55.640 --> 01:55:57.119 You know, you ask great questions. 2399 01:55:58.119 --> 01:55:59.039 Really, if I. 2400 01:55:59.039 --> 01:56:02.760 Can Jack so Jack was our episode thirteen, which I 2401 01:56:02.760 --> 01:56:07.079 thought was hilarious based on Murphy's Law like Lucky thirteen. 2402 01:56:07.840 --> 01:56:09.680 But some of the comments I got on that one, 2403 01:56:09.920 --> 01:56:11.720 like god, damn, you keep interrupting him. 2404 01:56:11.720 --> 01:56:13.079 We just want to hear Jack talk. 2405 01:56:13.840 --> 01:56:16.439 So maybe one day Jack, you'll let me do you 2406 01:56:16.479 --> 01:56:18.479 around two if you I'd love to talk about the 2407 01:56:18.560 --> 01:56:19.760 journalist work he did too. 2408 01:56:19.960 --> 01:56:22.119 Sure, Sure, there's definitely a lot to get in there. No, 2409 01:56:22.359 --> 01:56:23.079 I'd be happy to. 2410 01:56:23.880 --> 01:56:27.039 And like Dave said, if people like the Team House, 2411 01:56:27.079 --> 01:56:29.279 they should go and check out Combat Story, they should 2412 01:56:29.279 --> 01:56:31.560 go see what Ryan's doing over there. 2413 01:56:31.720 --> 01:56:33.840 And like I guarantee you you're going to find something 2414 01:56:33.840 --> 01:56:34.840 there you're interested in. 2415 01:56:35.239 --> 01:56:37.840 If you mention in the comments that you're from the 2416 01:56:37.880 --> 01:56:40.560 Team House or that you you got there from all 2417 01:56:40.560 --> 01:56:44.159 give you you'll get a on combat story. 2418 01:56:44.000 --> 01:56:46.840 On something yeah, Yeah, to be determined. 2419 01:56:46.960 --> 01:56:49.560 So aside from combat story, is there anything else that 2420 01:56:49.560 --> 01:56:51.640 you're working on, any other passions that you're pursuing. 2421 01:56:52.920 --> 01:56:55.680 So I do want to give back a little bit 2422 01:56:55.680 --> 01:56:59.319 more to the veteran community. And I've spent the past 2423 01:56:59.520 --> 01:57:02.399 two and a hour years at Google, at a big 2424 01:57:02.439 --> 01:57:05.439 tech company, running an intel team, and I work in 2425 01:57:05.439 --> 01:57:08.239 this space that's called trust and safety. And I had 2426 01:57:08.239 --> 01:57:10.000 never heard of it when I was leaving the agency, 2427 01:57:10.399 --> 01:57:12.279 and I think for a lot of people who come 2428 01:57:12.319 --> 01:57:16.199 out of military intel law enforcement, you go into corporate 2429 01:57:16.199 --> 01:57:21.760 America and you're looking for something that has meaning, where 2430 01:57:21.760 --> 01:57:24.760 you're doing good work and you're fighting bad actors. And 2431 01:57:24.800 --> 01:57:26.520 I didn't really think it was out there, and I 2432 01:57:26.600 --> 01:57:29.359 found it, So I'm in it now. I don't work 2433 01:57:29.399 --> 01:57:31.199 at Google anymore. I left there and I'm going to 2434 01:57:31.239 --> 01:57:34.399 another big tech company here in a month. But I 2435 01:57:34.439 --> 01:57:36.680 want to help get veterans into that to help them 2436 01:57:36.760 --> 01:57:39.439 fill that void. So I am working on something in 2437 01:57:39.479 --> 01:57:42.680 that capacity. It's not related to combat story, but it's 2438 01:57:42.720 --> 01:57:45.079 more just related to people who are in the spot 2439 01:57:45.159 --> 01:57:48.880 like me, and places where they want to do more 2440 01:57:49.000 --> 01:57:51.079 and they don't think they can, but there's a whole 2441 01:57:51.079 --> 01:57:53.119 world out there that just probably haven't seen yet. 2442 01:57:53.279 --> 01:57:58.039 Yeah, super cool, fascinating, And next episode we are going 2443 01:57:58.119 --> 01:58:02.880 to have Ken Gaudebt in studio. Ken was a warped 2444 01:58:03.000 --> 01:58:05.920 in Vietnam and then he went and served with a 2445 01:58:06.000 --> 01:58:09.199 Rhodesian light infantry and then he served in forty four 2446 01:58:09.239 --> 01:58:12.960 Pathfinder Company with another previous guest of ours, Peter McAleese 2447 01:58:14.159 --> 01:58:17.199 in South Africa. So Ken is a super interesting guy. 2448 01:58:17.399 --> 01:58:19.920 We'll have him here in studio and it's going to 2449 01:58:20.000 --> 01:58:22.159 be a little earlier. We're going to be live around 2450 01:58:22.800 --> 01:58:26.239 eleven or noon, so it's not going to be at night. 2451 01:58:26.600 --> 01:58:28.840 It's an odd time for us because we're working around 2452 01:58:28.920 --> 01:58:31.800 Ken's schedule before he has to catch a flight out. 2453 01:58:32.039 --> 01:58:33.960 But that will be next Friday. 2454 01:58:33.600 --> 01:58:36.600 And I'll be on Ryan's show tomorrow. It'll be really smart, right, 2455 01:58:36.720 --> 01:58:38.680 And who are your next guests? 2456 01:58:38.720 --> 01:58:39.880 A couple guests coming up. 2457 01:58:40.920 --> 01:58:45.560 So I've run several interviews recently that we're teeing up. 2458 01:58:45.600 --> 01:58:51.640 I got a Swedish citizen of Kurdish descent who lost 2459 01:58:51.680 --> 01:58:55.439 his uncle and cousins to Isis in Syria and just 2460 01:58:55.479 --> 01:58:57.239 picked up and left and went in to fight. And 2461 01:58:57.279 --> 01:59:00.319 it's pretty interesting. So I did two sessions with him 2462 01:59:00.720 --> 01:59:05.880 about going through villages that have just been vacated by 2463 01:59:05.920 --> 01:59:09.279 ISIS and it's horrible what he kind of saw. I 2464 01:59:09.319 --> 01:59:14.159 also just interviewed my first this is terrible with me, 2465 01:59:14.479 --> 01:59:19.279 the first time I've interviewed a female guest, Kim Casey Campbell, badass, 2466 01:59:19.640 --> 01:59:21.319 a ten Fighter pilot. 2467 01:59:21.359 --> 01:59:25.000 That's all sign Casey is killer. 2468 01:59:24.920 --> 01:59:27.800 Chick, which I think is one of the coolest damn 2469 01:59:27.880 --> 01:59:30.640 call signs I've ever heard. And she got hit with 2470 01:59:30.680 --> 01:59:33.600 a SAM in Iraq and made it back to base. 2471 01:59:34.199 --> 01:59:37.399 Awesome's she's the one that put it down safely after 2472 01:59:37.479 --> 01:59:37.920 getting hit. 2473 01:59:38.000 --> 01:59:39.319 Yeah, that's her. 2474 01:59:39.800 --> 01:59:43.359 Oh wow, it's awesome man, she's you guys should definitely 2475 01:59:43.439 --> 01:59:45.720 have her on if you if you haven't already. Just 2476 01:59:46.720 --> 01:59:50.640 it's super accomplished, very understated and a badass. 2477 01:59:51.000 --> 01:59:54.039 Yeah yeah, I got heard from her. That's awesome. 2478 01:59:55.560 --> 01:59:56.119 That's awesome. 2479 01:59:56.279 --> 01:59:59.640 Well, not appreciate it, guys, Yeah, thank you, Ryan, really 2480 01:59:59.640 --> 02:00:02.039 appreciate you spend on your Friday evening with us, and 2481 02:00:02.119 --> 02:00:04.640 you know, apologies to your family as we keep you 2482 02:00:04.680 --> 02:00:05.359 out here tonight. 2483 02:00:05.720 --> 02:00:08.319 We had one last sorry, we got one last donation. 2484 02:00:08.439 --> 02:00:12.520 Thank you Quovidas, and thank you, Ryan Man. We really 2485 02:00:12.560 --> 02:00:13.439 appreciate your time. 2486 02:00:14.640 --> 02:00:14.960 Guys. 2487 02:00:15.199 --> 02:00:17.800 I appreciate your time, and hopefully we'll get around too 2488 02:00:17.920 --> 02:00:21.000 with you all someday. Actually, I would like to talk 2489 02:00:21.000 --> 02:00:24.039 to you guys just about your thoughts on your podcast 2490 02:00:24.119 --> 02:00:27.039 one time the two of you together, Less on the stories, 2491 02:00:27.159 --> 02:00:29.399 more on like putting this together. Who you want to 2492 02:00:29.439 --> 02:00:33.000 get on like underrated episodes one you've really enjoyed. I 2493 02:00:33.000 --> 02:00:34.920 think your fans would really appreciate. 2494 02:00:34.680 --> 02:00:37.199 The whole background on how this thing came into existence. 2495 02:00:37.239 --> 02:00:39.640 It's like such a clutch, right, It's such a cluster fuck. 2496 02:00:39.800 --> 02:00:40.840 It's it's hilarious. 2497 02:00:40.880 --> 02:00:42.000 Everybody wants to know that. 2498 02:00:43.319 --> 02:00:46.119 Yeah, how do you how do you get a successful podcast? 2499 02:00:46.159 --> 02:00:50.520 I don't know, man, You just start talking and keep talking, right, What. 2500 02:00:50.199 --> 02:00:52.319 What in the world possessed you to do it live 2501 02:00:52.439 --> 02:00:55.960 instead of pre recorded? These are all men, Yeah, important 2502 02:00:56.000 --> 02:00:58.560 questions I'm still trying to resolve in my own mind. 2503 02:00:58.600 --> 02:01:01.920 Yeah, we'll have to do like, okay, shared thing that 2504 02:01:01.960 --> 02:01:03.319 we do on both of our channels. 2505 02:01:03.359 --> 02:01:05.279 That'd be fun. Yeah, fun, that would be cool. 2506 02:01:05.680 --> 02:01:07.760 Well all right, Ryan, thank you man, I appreciate it, 2507 02:01:07.760 --> 02:01:09.600 and thank you everyone out there who joined us live. 2508 02:01:09.680 --> 02:01:11.560 And we'll listen to this, and we will