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This is your host Dan Zuvanski for the 31 00:01:50.359 --> 00:01:53.480 program True Murder, The most Shocking Killers in True crime 32 00:01:53.560 --> 00:01:58.400 History and the authors that have written about them. Sean 33 00:01:58.480 --> 00:02:02.079 Griffith spent over twenty three years in various Florida prisons 34 00:02:02.120 --> 00:02:05.359 for an armed robbery he committed in nineteen ninety two 35 00:02:05.359 --> 00:02:08.759 at the age of twenty one. He has just recently 36 00:02:08.800 --> 00:02:13.240 been conditionally released from prison. He documents an elaborate and 37 00:02:13.360 --> 00:02:16.520 exacting detail what is wrong with the correction system in 38 00:02:16.560 --> 00:02:20.240 the US and provides a host of solutions about how 39 00:02:20.280 --> 00:02:23.840 to improve it and save the taxpayers millions of dollars 40 00:02:24.400 --> 00:02:28.439 while making our streets safer at the same time. Facing 41 00:02:28.479 --> 00:02:32.439 the US prison problem two point three million strong is 42 00:02:32.479 --> 00:02:35.120 written by someone from inside the belly of the beast, 43 00:02:35.599 --> 00:02:38.400 who knows from years of personal experience what works and 44 00:02:38.439 --> 00:02:42.759 what doesn't. Ironically, most prisons today are not set up 45 00:02:42.759 --> 00:02:46.439 to rehabilitate prisoners, but to do the opposite, simply to 46 00:02:46.520 --> 00:02:51.280 warehouse ever increasing numbers of them until they're eventually released 47 00:02:51.319 --> 00:02:54.439 with little or no practical training to succeed on the outside. 48 00:02:55.199 --> 00:02:58.319 SEWN advocates that the real purpose of prison, in addition 49 00:02:58.400 --> 00:03:01.400 to punishment, should be to any ninety percent who will 50 00:03:01.400 --> 00:03:05.120 eventually be released to cope on the outside and not 51 00:03:05.199 --> 00:03:08.520 return to prison within the first three years. As now 52 00:03:08.639 --> 00:03:12.280 just under half of all released prisoners do. SEWN shows 53 00:03:12.319 --> 00:03:16.199 how tough on crime politicians supported by guard unions in 54 00:03:16.240 --> 00:03:19.879 private prison corporations have a vested interest in keeping the 55 00:03:19.879 --> 00:03:24.560 recipientism rate high. Instead of fostering in prison drug rehab, 56 00:03:25.000 --> 00:03:29.879 job training, impulse control, and close family ties, prisons continually 57 00:03:29.919 --> 00:03:33.800 slash these critical programs to hire more guards and build 58 00:03:33.840 --> 00:03:37.680 more prisons. In California, seventy percent of the prison budget 59 00:03:37.719 --> 00:03:40.479 goes to pay the thirty one thousand guards it employs, 60 00:03:40.520 --> 00:03:44.199 and only five percent of vocational programs to reduce recidivism 61 00:03:44.919 --> 00:03:48.759 until taxpayers grasp how counter productive this approach truly is 62 00:03:48.800 --> 00:03:51.840 in providing public safety. There will be no chance for 63 00:03:51.960 --> 00:03:55.199 meaningful prison reform. The book that was featuring this evening 64 00:03:55.599 --> 00:03:59.680 is Facing the US Prison Problem two point three million Strong, 65 00:04:00.120 --> 00:04:11.840 with my guest author Sean Griffith. Good evening, Sewan, and 66 00:04:11.840 --> 00:04:12.879 welcome to the program. 67 00:04:13.479 --> 00:04:15.919 Hei Dan, How are you fine? 68 00:04:15.960 --> 00:04:18.160 Thank you. We just did an introduction to your book 69 00:04:19.399 --> 00:04:23.439 that I kind of cobbled together between Pat O'Connor's review 70 00:04:23.519 --> 00:04:28.680 and your brief synopsis of your book itself. Let's get 71 00:04:28.800 --> 00:04:34.399 after this. Oh, thank you very much. Now let's get 72 00:04:34.439 --> 00:04:38.959 to obviously we know that the the reason why you 73 00:04:39.040 --> 00:04:45.360 wrote this book. Let's unlike the book itself, which is 74 00:04:46.600 --> 00:04:52.240 again a very interesting and fascinating book, because of the 75 00:04:52.279 --> 00:04:56.439 perspective that you have. Obviously, now give us the I 76 00:04:56.839 --> 00:04:58.839 apologize for this, but let's get this out of the 77 00:04:58.879 --> 00:05:01.959 way so we can, Hara, have a real sort of 78 00:05:02.319 --> 00:05:04.040 the audience is going to have a real balanced look 79 00:05:04.079 --> 00:05:07.480 on who you are and your credentials for writing this 80 00:05:08.720 --> 00:05:12.160 and based on your experiences. So first tell us a 81 00:05:12.160 --> 00:05:15.319 little bit about yourself, how you grew up and what 82 00:05:15.439 --> 00:05:21.279 led you to this incredible experience that you had at 83 00:05:21.319 --> 00:05:23.560 twenty one years of age. Take us a little bit 84 00:05:23.600 --> 00:05:25.879 back to your child and what led up to your 85 00:05:26.120 --> 00:05:29.639 eventual imprisonment, and if you could please be so kind 86 00:05:29.680 --> 00:05:33.160 to tell us what exactly that crime was and what entailed. 87 00:05:34.120 --> 00:05:37.600 Okay, sure thing, Daniel, problem. I would just like to 88 00:05:37.600 --> 00:05:40.079 say first before I even start on my childhood and 89 00:05:40.079 --> 00:05:41.600 some of the things that happened. And first I can 90 00:05:41.639 --> 00:05:43.319 tell you also, thank you very much, Dan for having 91 00:05:43.319 --> 00:05:45.639 me on the program. Then this is a true pleasure. 92 00:05:47.519 --> 00:05:51.199 I would like to say first and begin by saying 93 00:05:51.199 --> 00:05:54.839 that I failed in the book to mention that I 94 00:05:54.879 --> 00:05:58.279 had made amends with my mother my father's past now, 95 00:05:58.800 --> 00:06:01.920 and I did document some things from my childhood. It 96 00:06:02.160 --> 00:06:04.839 wasn't an easy childhood, and I'll explain a little bit 97 00:06:04.839 --> 00:06:07.120 here in a second. I just would like to say 98 00:06:07.199 --> 00:06:09.519 first and foremost that I did make amends with my mother, 99 00:06:09.600 --> 00:06:13.240 and as an adult, I don't blame her or blame 100 00:06:13.279 --> 00:06:15.959 my childhood today for some of the decisions I made 101 00:06:16.000 --> 00:06:19.360 as a young adult. I think they were instrumental in 102 00:06:19.480 --> 00:06:22.360 leading maybe me in directions that led to them, but 103 00:06:22.439 --> 00:06:24.199 I still the one that made the decisions. I'd like 104 00:06:24.240 --> 00:06:27.360 to just that first before we go on now. 105 00:06:27.560 --> 00:06:31.639 Certainly as a child. 106 00:06:31.399 --> 00:06:34.120 I came from a Catholic family, a mother and a father. 107 00:06:34.240 --> 00:06:37.600 They remain married. It was somewhat of a code of 108 00:06:37.600 --> 00:06:41.879 pendant relationship, actually an extreme code of pennant relationship where 109 00:06:41.920 --> 00:06:45.120 my father was. He loved my mother very much. As 110 00:06:45.120 --> 00:06:47.480 a husband, my father was about the best husband you 111 00:06:47.480 --> 00:06:50.399 could be. He was very loving to my mother and 112 00:06:51.160 --> 00:06:53.480 you know, did just doted on her, did everything he 113 00:06:53.519 --> 00:06:56.839 could to make her happy. My mother, though at the 114 00:06:56.839 --> 00:06:59.720 same time, my father was also very He was very stoic. 115 00:07:00.040 --> 00:07:02.639 He didn't talk very much to me. He didn't spend 116 00:07:02.720 --> 00:07:04.839 very much time talking to me or explaining things to me. 117 00:07:05.480 --> 00:07:08.680 And my mother took advantage on someone. I think of 118 00:07:08.759 --> 00:07:11.160 the fact that she still was intimidated of him. He 119 00:07:10.879 --> 00:07:13.639 had he had a bad drinking problem, and sometimes he 120 00:07:13.680 --> 00:07:16.839 would he would take that out on the kids, and 121 00:07:16.920 --> 00:07:19.240 sometimes I think maybe early on, my mother was concerned 122 00:07:19.279 --> 00:07:20.920 that he might take it out on her or the girls, 123 00:07:20.920 --> 00:07:23.439 which were my sisters. I had five in my family, 124 00:07:23.480 --> 00:07:27.319 an older older brother, older sister, and then one then 125 00:07:27.360 --> 00:07:29.399 I came, and then my middle sister and then my 126 00:07:29.439 --> 00:07:33.199 youngest sister. So there were five of us, and I 127 00:07:33.199 --> 00:07:35.800 think my mother tried to protect my sisters from my 128 00:07:35.879 --> 00:07:39.079 father when he was drinking, and as a result, she 129 00:07:39.199 --> 00:07:40.959 felt like the boys could take it better. So my 130 00:07:41.000 --> 00:07:43.120 brother and I kind of wore it early on, and 131 00:07:43.160 --> 00:07:45.959 then it became the thing where my mother would encourage 132 00:07:45.959 --> 00:07:50.199 my sisters to do things they would She would encourage 133 00:07:50.279 --> 00:07:53.480 him with love, basically to just say things that didn't occur. 134 00:07:53.639 --> 00:07:55.399 So then my dad would come home after a long 135 00:07:55.480 --> 00:07:57.560 day work and he would start drinking, and then my 136 00:07:57.600 --> 00:07:59.600 mother would be in his ear with these things as 137 00:07:59.639 --> 00:08:01.600 if bat him, as if she had seen them herself, 138 00:08:01.600 --> 00:08:04.279 when really she had just reinforced the girls to tell tales. 139 00:08:05.000 --> 00:08:07.920 And that resulted many times in me being taken out 140 00:08:08.079 --> 00:08:11.079 to the garage where that's where the punishment was meted out. 141 00:08:11.639 --> 00:08:14.079 And it was it was you know, it wasn't like 142 00:08:14.120 --> 00:08:16.319 your average getting a spanking on the butt. I mean, 143 00:08:16.360 --> 00:08:19.480 it was pretty much beating and it was tough. I mean, 144 00:08:19.519 --> 00:08:23.839 I grew up very with a very sad childhood, and 145 00:08:23.879 --> 00:08:27.120 I started running away at eight years old. Before I 146 00:08:27.160 --> 00:08:29.319 knew it, you know, things has progressed. I was put 147 00:08:29.319 --> 00:08:32.000 in a hospital, actually a group home at twelve, and 148 00:08:32.039 --> 00:08:33.159 then when I was in a group home. I was 149 00:08:33.200 --> 00:08:38.720 lighting a cigarette with a some alcohol from old English 150 00:08:38.799 --> 00:08:40.799 leather cologne that would you know, just burn the alcohol. 151 00:08:40.799 --> 00:08:42.799 It wouldn't burn the fronture because I didn't have a 152 00:08:42.879 --> 00:08:44.799 lighter with any fluid, and I had this one with 153 00:08:44.879 --> 00:08:48.399 a little sparker. Well, when the staff came in and he, 154 00:08:48.720 --> 00:08:52.799 I guess, was looking for some accolades from the supervisors, 155 00:08:53.200 --> 00:08:56.559 and he saw through his eyes that I was attempting 156 00:08:56.600 --> 00:08:58.960 to commit arson and burn the entire place down and 157 00:08:59.039 --> 00:09:01.440 kill everybody in it. That's what he wrote in his report, 158 00:09:01.759 --> 00:09:04.720 which was completely falsified. I was literally trying to light 159 00:09:04.759 --> 00:09:07.039 a cigarette as a team just knew I wasn't supposed to, 160 00:09:07.080 --> 00:09:09.519 and trying to get away with it. Now, I was 161 00:09:09.559 --> 00:09:11.799 already suffering some delinquent problems at a young age, I 162 00:09:11.840 --> 00:09:14.240 mean just from what I had been through, and he 163 00:09:14.279 --> 00:09:17.320 wrote that report. I got bakerected into a psychiatric hospital, 164 00:09:17.919 --> 00:09:19.759 and when they found out that my dad had Ford 165 00:09:19.799 --> 00:09:22.720 Motor Credit insurance, which lasted for two and a half years, 166 00:09:22.759 --> 00:09:25.639 they documented all kinds of stuff that said that I 167 00:09:25.679 --> 00:09:29.440 had like four or five different personality disorders and everything else, 168 00:09:29.519 --> 00:09:31.759 and I was mindless secured. Two and a half years later, 169 00:09:31.759 --> 00:09:34.679 when the insurance buying ran out. I mean literally two 170 00:09:34.720 --> 00:09:38.320 weeks before run out, so you know, I kind of 171 00:09:38.320 --> 00:09:40.879 had a sour outlook on life. After that, I hit 172 00:09:40.919 --> 00:09:44.759 the street. I was just turned fifteen, or about fifteen 173 00:09:44.799 --> 00:09:46.399 and a half. I hit the street. I went to 174 00:09:46.440 --> 00:09:50.559 try and live with my dad again, and that didn't work. 175 00:09:50.600 --> 00:09:53.639 I mean within a day or two, he was posturing 176 00:09:53.679 --> 00:09:55.080 the same way that he was going to be physical 177 00:09:55.120 --> 00:09:56.600 with me, and I just told him that wasn't gonna 178 00:09:56.600 --> 00:09:58.840 happen anymore. So I went to live with my grandfather 179 00:09:58.960 --> 00:10:02.000 my grandmother. My grandfather was a great man and I 180 00:10:02.039 --> 00:10:04.600 love them very much, but my grandmother was very strict. 181 00:10:04.639 --> 00:10:08.399 She was from the nineteen thirties and forties mentality of 182 00:10:08.840 --> 00:10:09.960 you know, I had just done two and a half 183 00:10:10.039 --> 00:10:11.519 years in the hospital. I haven't had any time with 184 00:10:11.600 --> 00:10:13.559 friends or anything like that, so you know, I had 185 00:10:13.559 --> 00:10:15.960 a curfew like seven pm on the weekends, and it 186 00:10:16.000 --> 00:10:18.120 was just it was too restricted for a kid that 187 00:10:18.480 --> 00:10:19.440 was wanting to sew as oaks. 188 00:10:19.480 --> 00:10:19.600 You know. 189 00:10:20.200 --> 00:10:23.519 I was just turning sixteen and I ended up getting 190 00:10:23.519 --> 00:10:25.679 in trouble for joy riding in my grandfather's car, and 191 00:10:25.720 --> 00:10:28.159 that started me kind of hitting the street, and then 192 00:10:28.279 --> 00:10:30.320 you know, I just I couldn't get along with my grandmother. 193 00:10:30.360 --> 00:10:32.759 It was it was stifling, and I think that's where 194 00:10:32.799 --> 00:10:34.799 some of my my father got some of his teachings 195 00:10:34.919 --> 00:10:37.879 and the way that you raised kids. So one thing 196 00:10:37.960 --> 00:10:42.360 led to another, and I was sixteen, almost about seventeen, 197 00:10:43.039 --> 00:10:45.039 and I met with these people who offered me a 198 00:10:45.039 --> 00:10:46.759 place to live, and they were crack addicts and I 199 00:10:46.799 --> 00:10:48.360 didn't know it. I didn't even know what crack was 200 00:10:48.399 --> 00:10:51.000 at the time, and they offered me some and I 201 00:10:51.080 --> 00:10:54.159 tried some with them, and I became addicted. And from 202 00:10:54.200 --> 00:10:56.919 seventeen to the age of twenty one, it was just 203 00:10:57.720 --> 00:11:01.039 juvenile delinquency one thing after you know, they was just 204 00:11:01.360 --> 00:11:05.000 petty crimes and trying to support my habit, going in 205 00:11:05.120 --> 00:11:07.200 and out of juvenile PSI facilities, in and out of 206 00:11:07.279 --> 00:11:11.039 jails and prison three times up until I was, you know, 207 00:11:11.080 --> 00:11:14.799 twenty one. And when that finally I just continued to escalate. 208 00:11:15.480 --> 00:11:16.960 I just didn't seem to have a grip on my 209 00:11:16.960 --> 00:11:19.120 life and I didn't understand what direction I was going, 210 00:11:19.159 --> 00:11:21.759 and I was just very rebellious. I did not respect authority, 211 00:11:21.879 --> 00:11:24.720 did not respect adults, and I just figured that was 212 00:11:24.720 --> 00:11:27.879 a victim, and why not victimize others who cares? I mean, 213 00:11:27.879 --> 00:11:29.639 the people that loved me the most victimized me, So 214 00:11:29.679 --> 00:11:31.879 why not meet you victimize other people. That was kind 215 00:11:31.879 --> 00:11:32.799 of my attitude back then. 216 00:11:35.039 --> 00:11:39.639 Now, what exactly give us a say, six months or 217 00:11:39.639 --> 00:11:42.919 the last year before you were twenty one, when you 218 00:11:42.960 --> 00:11:46.960 talk about escalation, What had your drug habit escalated to, 219 00:11:47.159 --> 00:11:50.480 and what were the types of crimes you were resorting 220 00:11:50.519 --> 00:11:54.480 to just prior to this armed robbery, And then we 221 00:11:54.480 --> 00:11:56.279 can talk about the armed robbery itself. 222 00:11:57.440 --> 00:11:59.960 Well, actually I had been in prison in ninety one 223 00:12:00.320 --> 00:12:03.279 and had only been out since January twenty eighth of 224 00:12:03.399 --> 00:12:07.840 nineteen ninety two, and that had been for just grands. 225 00:12:07.840 --> 00:12:10.279 That stuff as juvenile, it was adjudicated as an adult. 226 00:12:10.720 --> 00:12:12.600 I violated probation when my brother was killed on the 227 00:12:12.679 --> 00:12:14.559 motorcycle because I went to the funeral and they said 228 00:12:14.720 --> 00:12:17.679 I wasn't and they wouldn't allow me to go, so 229 00:12:17.960 --> 00:12:20.360 I went ahead one anyway, I violated, So I took 230 00:12:20.399 --> 00:12:23.320 off and started traveling around the country. I went to Mexico, 231 00:12:24.000 --> 00:12:27.320 hadtiked back and forth and learned how to drive a semi. 232 00:12:27.600 --> 00:12:29.159 I just I went around. I mean I really wasn't 233 00:12:29.159 --> 00:12:32.000 committing a lot of crimes at that time, the last 234 00:12:32.039 --> 00:12:34.799 six months, because I've been in prison up to the 235 00:12:34.840 --> 00:12:36.600 four months, you know, up to that six months, and 236 00:12:36.600 --> 00:12:38.840 then the last two months before I committed it on robbery, 237 00:12:39.759 --> 00:12:42.600 I was basically living on the street aftergot out of prison, 238 00:12:43.320 --> 00:12:45.360 so I had moved in with myttle sister. 239 00:12:46.240 --> 00:12:50.960 Go ahead, Uh sorry, Well, what are the before year 240 00:12:51.000 --> 00:12:54.279 twenty one in this armed robbery? What are some of 241 00:12:54.440 --> 00:12:56.879 the kind of offenses that you were What are the 242 00:12:56.919 --> 00:12:59.639 offenses that you were? Oh, grandfa prison for. 243 00:13:00.399 --> 00:13:04.679 Grand theft auto. Let's see, grand theft of a farm, 244 00:13:04.679 --> 00:13:07.120 which I was actually my brothers when he was just 245 00:13:07.320 --> 00:13:09.440 when he went to see my father wouldn't let me 246 00:13:09.440 --> 00:13:11.600 have anything of his, and I actually took it upon 247 00:13:11.639 --> 00:13:14.399 myself to take the gun in a radio that was 248 00:13:14.399 --> 00:13:16.320 his when I was living in his trailer when he died. 249 00:13:16.919 --> 00:13:19.960 I actually got charged by my father for that grant 250 00:13:20.039 --> 00:13:21.879 with a grand theft auto was also my mother's because 251 00:13:21.879 --> 00:13:25.440 I door rode her car and wrecked it. So I 252 00:13:25.440 --> 00:13:28.720 got a grand theft auto and some burglaries. When I 253 00:13:28.799 --> 00:13:30.399 was on the drugs, I just went crazy. I mean 254 00:13:30.440 --> 00:13:32.840 I didn't have a conscience, at all. I broke into 255 00:13:33.720 --> 00:13:39.519 probably fifteen homes when I was seventeen eighteen. It stole 256 00:13:39.559 --> 00:13:43.759 a few cars, you know, stole stuff out of stores. 257 00:13:44.360 --> 00:13:47.320 It was just anything that I could get to support 258 00:13:47.320 --> 00:13:50.320 my habit and also actually just survived because once I 259 00:13:50.320 --> 00:13:52.159 got a phony record. In the economy back then that 260 00:13:52.200 --> 00:13:53.759 they had, it was a very bad economy, and I 261 00:13:53.919 --> 00:13:56.039 was very hard to get a job. I tried for 262 00:13:56.039 --> 00:13:58.159 two months straight leading up to the robbery, and just 263 00:13:58.240 --> 00:14:01.879 I couldn't get one. So that's kind of the crimes. 264 00:14:01.960 --> 00:14:04.759 I mean, I never had any crimes where I heard anybody. 265 00:14:04.799 --> 00:14:06.759 It just it wasn't in me to ever harm anybody. 266 00:14:06.919 --> 00:14:10.159 I'm not a child molestor or a murderer or a 267 00:14:10.279 --> 00:14:13.039 rapist or you know. I never even assaulted anybody. I'm 268 00:14:13.080 --> 00:14:14.799 not saying that to minimize what I did do, because 269 00:14:14.799 --> 00:14:16.600 the armed robbery was bad and I deserve to be 270 00:14:16.679 --> 00:14:19.120 punished for that, But I just I wanted to clarify 271 00:14:19.120 --> 00:14:21.799 though that I never did actually harm anyone in my life. 272 00:14:23.840 --> 00:14:26.320 Now, tell us about the armed robbery, and tell us 273 00:14:26.320 --> 00:14:29.679 about the circumstances prior to that that led to this 274 00:14:29.879 --> 00:14:35.720 armed robbery, because obviously this eventful day, this eventful. This 275 00:14:35.879 --> 00:14:39.799 event has affected you throughout your entire life, and we're 276 00:14:39.840 --> 00:14:42.200 talking about some of that effect right now with this 277 00:14:42.240 --> 00:14:45.879 book and this interview. So tell us about a little prior, 278 00:14:46.159 --> 00:14:48.559 a little bit prior to the event itself. 279 00:14:50.120 --> 00:14:51.840 Well, what had happened was I moved in with my 280 00:14:51.919 --> 00:14:54.799 sister and after getting out of prison on January twenty 281 00:14:54.840 --> 00:14:56.639 eighth to nineteen ninety two, I lived with my sister 282 00:14:57.399 --> 00:15:00.679 and I also got a job recent machine burner. I 283 00:15:00.679 --> 00:15:02.679 had tried to use one of the skills I had 284 00:15:02.759 --> 00:15:06.080 learned in prison, and the first thing that went wrong 285 00:15:06.320 --> 00:15:08.200 was I had the job. When I got the job, 286 00:15:08.279 --> 00:15:10.960 the man who was the owner of the business told 287 00:15:10.960 --> 00:15:13.679 me that a guy named greg was going I think 288 00:15:13.799 --> 00:15:16.080 was greg Or Glenn. He was going to be coming 289 00:15:16.120 --> 00:15:19.240 back from Hawaii, possibly after trying to start a rock band. 290 00:15:19.600 --> 00:15:21.080 And he told me, I'll give you the job. It's 291 00:15:21.080 --> 00:15:22.600 seven to fifty an hour. For me as a kid, 292 00:15:22.600 --> 00:15:24.679 that was good money. So I said, okay, I'll take you. 293 00:15:24.679 --> 00:15:25.879 You know who thinks the guy is going to come 294 00:15:25.879 --> 00:15:28.000 back from Hawaii with a rock band, and the chances 295 00:15:28.000 --> 00:15:30.559 of that to me were not very high. So I 296 00:15:30.600 --> 00:15:32.960 accepted the job. Then I moved in with my sister, 297 00:15:33.200 --> 00:15:35.600 who you know, I wasn't on the lease, and she 298 00:15:35.759 --> 00:15:38.879 had an argument with some of the other female managers 299 00:15:38.879 --> 00:15:41.679 at the bank. So when she was having the argument 300 00:15:41.720 --> 00:15:43.679 with them, they found out that an ex conn was 301 00:15:43.679 --> 00:15:47.840 living in the apartment with her, and they called the landlord, 302 00:15:47.879 --> 00:15:50.799 and the landlord called her and threatened to kick her 303 00:15:50.879 --> 00:15:53.879 and her kids out if I wasn't out of there immediately. 304 00:15:54.360 --> 00:15:56.639 So even though I was on probation, which you know, 305 00:15:56.679 --> 00:15:58.000 you can't move without permission. 306 00:15:58.000 --> 00:15:58.720 You can't change. 307 00:15:58.559 --> 00:16:02.799 Residence of violation. So I tried to contact my probation officer, 308 00:16:02.799 --> 00:16:04.519 I couldn't get in contact with them. It was a night, 309 00:16:05.200 --> 00:16:06.919 and I went ahead and moved out. I didn't want 310 00:16:06.960 --> 00:16:08.320 I didn't want my sister and the kids to get 311 00:16:08.399 --> 00:16:10.720 kicked on the street, so I moved out. Now I'm 312 00:16:10.759 --> 00:16:12.600 sleeping in the truck that I just bought with a 313 00:16:12.639 --> 00:16:14.519 new job that I got a down payment on it 314 00:16:14.559 --> 00:16:19.240 and purchased it. It was making payments and that was Jesse. 315 00:16:19.399 --> 00:16:23.159 That's right. Jesse came back from Hawaii. So at the 316 00:16:23.159 --> 00:16:26.200 same time that I just went homeless, I also went jobless. 317 00:16:26.799 --> 00:16:29.759 So now I'm in the truck, and actually I was 318 00:16:29.799 --> 00:16:32.200 not at that moment, I was not doing drugs. I 319 00:16:32.200 --> 00:16:36.240 mean I couldn't even afford it. But when I went 320 00:16:36.279 --> 00:16:40.000 homeless and I went jobless for two months, about actually 321 00:16:40.039 --> 00:16:42.480 a month and a half, I put in applications in 322 00:16:42.559 --> 00:16:45.919 nineteen ninety two, the early ninety two, in that recession, 323 00:16:46.279 --> 00:16:49.600 I put applications probably in sixty or seventy different places 324 00:16:49.639 --> 00:16:51.960 and didn't get a job at one of them. So 325 00:16:52.080 --> 00:16:54.679 for a month and a half, I was literally starving. 326 00:16:54.720 --> 00:16:56.240 I mean I didn't have any gas for my truck. 327 00:16:56.279 --> 00:16:58.320 I was sleeping in my truck. And from what my 328 00:16:58.360 --> 00:17:01.080 mother said, the Ford Motor Company, he was actually looking 329 00:17:01.080 --> 00:17:04.039 to repose the trouble which was my home. So I 330 00:17:04.079 --> 00:17:05.960 knew that I violated my probation. I was going back 331 00:17:05.960 --> 00:17:08.799 to prison already anyway. By losing my residence and losing 332 00:17:08.839 --> 00:17:11.680 my job, I just felt desperate. I didn't know what 333 00:17:11.720 --> 00:17:14.640 to do, and I kept looking around, looking around, trying 334 00:17:14.680 --> 00:17:16.960 to do odd jobs, and it just it wasn't enough, 335 00:17:17.000 --> 00:17:18.680 because I knew that if they found out that I 336 00:17:18.680 --> 00:17:20.680 didn't have a residence, I was going to go back 337 00:17:20.720 --> 00:17:23.279 to prison. So it's the way that I reasoned it, 338 00:17:23.319 --> 00:17:25.279 which was, you know, it wasn't logical, but the reason 339 00:17:25.400 --> 00:17:27.759 under the stress, the way I reasoned it was, if 340 00:17:27.799 --> 00:17:30.279 I commit a real quick lick and get some money 341 00:17:30.279 --> 00:17:32.960 to pay for rent and get a place, they won't 342 00:17:33.000 --> 00:17:35.279 know that I moved. I'll ask permission as if I 343 00:17:35.319 --> 00:17:38.480 hadn't moved yet, and that'll save me from going to prison. 344 00:17:39.000 --> 00:17:41.119 And then maybe I'll go to school or do something, 345 00:17:41.160 --> 00:17:42.960 you know, after I get that one lick that was 346 00:17:43.480 --> 00:17:45.519 that was the criminal mentality of me trying to take 347 00:17:45.559 --> 00:17:47.319 over and revert back to what I had known as 348 00:17:47.319 --> 00:17:50.880 a kid. And you know, I went and told my 349 00:17:50.920 --> 00:17:54.160 sister I was desperate, you know, and she didn't know. 350 00:17:54.240 --> 00:17:55.880 I went into her house and I got the gun 351 00:17:56.119 --> 00:17:59.240 that had been my dad, and I went and took 352 00:17:59.279 --> 00:18:02.440 it and drove all over the state of Florida in desperation. 353 00:18:02.960 --> 00:18:05.359 I went to Orlando, I almost got a ticket there, 354 00:18:06.200 --> 00:18:08.720 got pulled over. I went to a number of different 355 00:18:08.720 --> 00:18:10.880 small towns and cities in Florida to the point where 356 00:18:10.920 --> 00:18:13.480 I was almost out of gas. I spent the last 357 00:18:13.559 --> 00:18:17.079 change and everything I had on this desperate move, and 358 00:18:17.519 --> 00:18:18.880 I saw me rolled in the Sea Ring. 359 00:18:19.319 --> 00:18:19.559 Saw. 360 00:18:19.640 --> 00:18:21.599 I was familiar with Severring because that's where I had 361 00:18:21.839 --> 00:18:24.000 grown up as a teenager with my granddad and you know, 362 00:18:24.039 --> 00:18:27.119 on the street and I saw a man coming out 363 00:18:27.119 --> 00:18:30.359 of a bank counting cash and I just I went 364 00:18:30.440 --> 00:18:32.599 up to him. I pulled my truck up to his car. 365 00:18:32.799 --> 00:18:34.279 I didn't pull a gun. I left it where he 366 00:18:34.319 --> 00:18:36.519 was at. I just walked up to him and I said, 367 00:18:37.559 --> 00:18:40.279 I pulled my jacket open, and he saw the pistol 368 00:18:40.319 --> 00:18:42.880 grip in my in my pants and I know it. 369 00:18:43.039 --> 00:18:45.359 I didn't pull it and pointed at him and he 370 00:18:45.400 --> 00:18:47.000 saw it, and I told him, you know what this means, 371 00:18:47.039 --> 00:18:48.640 and he said yes, and I said, we'll hand it over. 372 00:18:48.759 --> 00:18:50.279 And he handed over the cash and I said where 373 00:18:50.359 --> 00:18:53.440 your keys? He said, they're in the car, and I said, okay, 374 00:18:53.440 --> 00:18:56.079 say where you're at. I reached in the car and 375 00:18:56.119 --> 00:18:57.640 got the keys out. Because I didn't want him to 376 00:18:57.680 --> 00:19:00.400 chase me, and we have a manslaughter charge or something. 377 00:19:00.400 --> 00:19:03.279 I at least had enough reason to think that through 378 00:19:03.319 --> 00:19:06.279 that I won't hurt anybody. So I took the keys, 379 00:19:06.319 --> 00:19:08.119 put him on the pocket, jumped in my truck, and 380 00:19:08.160 --> 00:19:11.559 that was it. It was about thirty seconds, and about 381 00:19:11.880 --> 00:19:15.079 thirty five minutes later I got pulled over. I took 382 00:19:15.160 --> 00:19:18.160 it speeding trying to get away, and he didn't know 383 00:19:18.200 --> 00:19:20.200 which is a bill to be on the lookout hadn't 384 00:19:20.200 --> 00:19:23.119 come out in that county yet, So he then forwarded 385 00:19:23.160 --> 00:19:25.200 the information office to the next county once he figured 386 00:19:25.200 --> 00:19:28.079 out who I was, and we had a high speed 387 00:19:28.160 --> 00:19:31.200 chase and they finally pulled me over and that was 388 00:19:31.240 --> 00:19:36.000 it and the rest is history, as they. 389 00:19:35.920 --> 00:19:42.759 Say, So, what were the circumstances in terms of your 390 00:19:42.839 --> 00:19:47.200 family support? What kind of means did they have in 391 00:19:47.279 --> 00:19:50.400 terms of being able to afford a really good lawyer? 392 00:19:50.799 --> 00:19:54.079 Were they savvy about anything like that? Tell us about 393 00:19:54.119 --> 00:19:55.480 what happened right after this. 394 00:19:56.440 --> 00:19:58.799 Well, you got to figure it through with my family 395 00:19:59.160 --> 00:20:02.440 being that I was kind of disowned when I was 396 00:20:02.440 --> 00:20:04.519 put in the hospital. That was kind of the end 397 00:20:04.559 --> 00:20:06.599 of my family. I mean, I didn't really have any 398 00:20:06.640 --> 00:20:09.799 relationship with him. Now my sisters, I did, My younger 399 00:20:09.799 --> 00:20:12.759 sisters may even my older sister I still maintained contact with. 400 00:20:12.799 --> 00:20:15.240 There they were just kids, I mean, so they didn't 401 00:20:15.240 --> 00:20:17.160