Speaker 1: I'm Ali.
Speaker 2: I came out after twenty years of marriage and I
Speaker 2: have three kids.
Speaker 3: I'm Melissa and I have two kids, and I came
Speaker 3: out at thirty seven after an eleven year marriage.
Speaker 2: This podcast is about coming out later and the struggles
Speaker 2: and victories that come with it.
Speaker 3: When coming out feels like the end of the world,
Speaker 3: but it's really just the beginning.
Speaker 2: This is the Lesbian Chronicles.
Speaker 1: Welcome to Lesbian Chronicles. Look at my new hat? Is
Speaker 1: that a new one? No, it's all totally new, but
Speaker 1: I never wear it.
Speaker 3: Did you get the ones that you ordered?
Speaker 1: No? Oh, but nobody else worry.
Speaker 2: The reason I didn't get it is because it went
Speaker 2: to my old address.
Speaker 3: I was gonna say, there's no problem with us.
Speaker 1: There's a problem. There's a problem.
Speaker 3: Order away exactly. It was Ali putting in her old address.
Speaker 1: I did. I didn't even put it in it just deep.
Speaker 1: But the thing is that it must have like default.
Speaker 2: It must have regressed to that after I did the order,
Speaker 2: because I know I typed.
Speaker 1: In my real address.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so I must have just like reverted save somewhere
Speaker 3: or audio autofill or something.
Speaker 1: So that's all good.
Speaker 3: Anyway, we hopped on here we did not discuss what
Speaker 3: we were going to banter about right now.
Speaker 2: Well, that's because yeah, we have a really we have
Speaker 2: a really exciting guest. So but who's not joining us
Speaker 2: for a few minutes. So why don't you just tell
Speaker 2: me what you're doing this weekend?
Speaker 1: My daughter's doing a triathlon tomorrow, so go.
Speaker 3: Okay, we just spent the entire week in my one
Speaker 3: bedroom condo with two kids. Fun, I had no internet,
Speaker 3: So how do you do?
Speaker 1: No internet?
Speaker 4: Like?
Speaker 1: I don't even know what that would be? Like, how
Speaker 1: do you do?
Speaker 4: Well?
Speaker 3: I mean, I have a hot spot on my phone,
Speaker 3: so I'm able to use that for work, but like
Speaker 3: we can't stream anything. We can't like pop on Netflix.
Speaker 3: So I had like DVDs and stuff like that, and
Speaker 3: they had their iPads.
Speaker 1: I need to teach you. What do you guys? We
Speaker 1: do slam poetry like off the cuff.
Speaker 3: Okay, it's very fun, super normal. A lot of people
Speaker 3: do that.
Speaker 2: We literally will be like, okay, let's just do it,
Speaker 2: and then you're like put on the spot and you
Speaker 2: have to like come up with just like something like
Speaker 2: dramatic and then like do a whole slam poem and
Speaker 2: like owen rocks at.
Speaker 1: It like he'll I'm sure he'll have like a.
Speaker 2: Connector word that's like nest and then it like leads
Speaker 2: into this thing about a nest and it's like he's brilliant.
Speaker 2: I'm pretty good though, I'll get I'm like a seven.
Speaker 2: He's like a tech.
Speaker 1: It takes.
Speaker 3: Can you go for it right now?
Speaker 1: Let me do it? Let me do it now.
Speaker 2: But I'm going to I'll send you a video of
Speaker 2: one that we did that, okay, I mean it has
Speaker 2: to be like a stressful thing. Then it like climaxes
Speaker 2: to the main event and then it's like you come.
Speaker 3: Back, I need to see this. I'm all for improvising
Speaker 3: and you know all that stuff. This sounds intimidating to me.
Speaker 2: It is, but you're doing it with your kids, so
Speaker 2: there's like thing intimidating.
Speaker 1: It's true.
Speaker 3: Yeah, they think I'm an idiot anyway.
Speaker 2: Like they already think you're an idiot. Reed gets weird
Speaker 2: about it, but the rest of.
Speaker 1: Us don't care.
Speaker 3: Yeah, but I mean, he's not the performer like Owen.
Speaker 2: But there's like it doesn't even have to be a
Speaker 2: thing anyway. But before because our guest is going to
Speaker 2: be joining us So just a really quick note.
Speaker 1: We got a message.
Speaker 2: From one of our listeners and her story sounded so
Speaker 2: good that I just was like, we have to get
Speaker 2: her to come on because I think not only will
Speaker 2: people relate to her, but she did it like the
Speaker 2: thing that everyone had to do.
Speaker 1: She did in a way that I felt like was harder.
Speaker 2: She had more kids, younger, like I don't know, like
Speaker 2: I as I read the message, I'm like, damn, how
Speaker 2: are you less smiling and happy? And so anyway, I
Speaker 2: just felt like she felt She's inspirational.
Speaker 3: Yeah, for sure. And before she jumps on here, one
Speaker 3: quick note that I want to mention is that our episodes,
Speaker 3: our videos are now on Tello Films.
Speaker 1: The streaming service.
Speaker 3: Okay, so if you guys want to see entire episodes
Speaker 3: of us doing this thing, you know, video wise, not
Speaker 3: just the podcast the audio, you can stream it on tellofilms.
Speaker 3: So it's it's like lesbian Netflix is the way that
Speaker 3: they advertise it.
Speaker 1: So check that out. For sure.
Speaker 2: They have a lot of good content on there, even
Speaker 2: one of Melissa's movies, Welcome Brianna, Perfect timing, perfect.
Speaker 1: Timing, perfect great. Great. Yeah, and you know we didn't.
Speaker 2: Get to tell you this before, but this is something
Speaker 2: we tell all our guests, and I think even our
Speaker 2: audience should know.
Speaker 1: You can say any fucked up thing you want and
Speaker 1: we'll edit it and post.
Speaker 2: So if you say something which I do pretty much
Speaker 2: every week, that Melissa's like, dude, we're not doing that.
Speaker 1: I can't wait, we can't do that, then you just
Speaker 1: say the word. Otherwise it all makes it to the show.
Speaker 3: But all in all, I also try to avoid using
Speaker 3: anyone's names that kind of thing, just a good rule
Speaker 3: of thumb.
Speaker 1: So yeah, you know, or do or do and take them,
Speaker 1: take a date to task.
Speaker 3: And then take the heat for it, not us exactly.
Speaker 2: So, Brianna, your message, like I felt like, would resonate
Speaker 2: with so many people, but mostly because it started so
Speaker 2: early for you, like your life, like turning into an.
Speaker 1: Adult, I guess to me started early.
Speaker 2: So why don't you just first of all, welcome, but
Speaker 2: then give us a little background on Brianna before she's gay.
Speaker 1: Brianne Okay, yes, okay, So I grew up in San Diego, California.
Speaker 1: I'm a sibling of four, so I'm a second daughter
Speaker 1: of four siblings. I grew up Mormon, so there's a
Speaker 1: very tight knit but very good community of Mormons and
Speaker 1: Diego and it was actually a really lovely experience being
Speaker 1: raised Mormon, especially outside of Utah, where it's kind of
Speaker 1: like the Vatican of Mormonism a little bit. I've never
Speaker 1: heard of Mormon and a Utah Mormon are just very
Speaker 1: different things. So okay, really fun. And then you know,
Speaker 1: in Mormonism you're taught to get married young and have
Speaker 1: babies young, and it's kind of expected of you. And
Speaker 1: so when I was twenty, well, I went to a
Speaker 1: a Mormon college, Bringham Young University, the campus in Idaho,
Speaker 1: which was, yeah, not my place going from San Diego
Speaker 1: in Idaho and in certain ways, and yeah, my roommate
Speaker 1: was from Idaho and was like, what's thephora? And I
Speaker 1: was like, oh my god, where am I? What's thephora?
Speaker 1: And my fuck nowhere? Seriously, Oh my god. I wanted
Speaker 1: to go to New York City to study fashion. That
Speaker 1: was my dream. And then I felt the pressure from
Speaker 1: my church leaders and my parents to go to Brigham Young, Idaho.
Speaker 1: And I mean obviously it was way cheaper and all
Speaker 1: of that, so I decided to do that, and I
Speaker 1: think that was like a big one of the biggest
Speaker 1: moments of my life where I went against myself, like
Speaker 1: for the first time in a big, big way in
Speaker 1: real time. Did you know it at the time or
Speaker 1: did you know like you were doing the right thing? Yes?
Speaker 1: I was like, oh, this is what I should do,
Speaker 1: because if I go to New York, if I go
Speaker 1: somewhere else, I won't stay active, probably in the church,
Speaker 1: and then I won't go to heaven. So I need
Speaker 1: to stay active. I need to go to heaven. And
Speaker 1: so I'm going to go to a Mormon college so
Speaker 1: I can do that. And I was also like school,
Speaker 1: I was like exploring my sexuality in high schoo I
Speaker 1: thought it was normal, Like I thought that's what I do.
Speaker 1: We were the other girls Mormon too. No, no, okay, okay, no,
Speaker 1: my friends, I'm still performing arts high school and so
Speaker 1: a lot of my friends were like openly gay or bisexual.
Speaker 1: Like it was a very fluid like people would wear
Speaker 1: cow costumes of school on a random Tuesday and no
Speaker 1: one cared. Like That's how great of like an environment
Speaker 1: I was in. It was just very everyone was just
Speaker 1: loving and accepting, and I loved my high school experience
Speaker 1: for that and so I felt free to kind of
Speaker 1: do whatever I needed to do and explore, and everyone
Speaker 1: was just kind of open and free in certain ways.
Speaker 1: And but then I went to be Yu Idaho and
Speaker 1: my sexually, my sexuality went to die there, I think,
Speaker 1: and they put like that part of myself underwear on you,
Speaker 1: right the army. Well, that's after you get married in
Speaker 1: the temple or if you go on a mission, you
Speaker 1: get the underwear. Yeah, got it. So yeah, I met
Speaker 1: my ex husband when I was eighteen, my first semester
Speaker 1: of college, and we dated for a little bit over
Speaker 1: a year, which in Mormon time, that's kind of a
Speaker 1: long time because you're not supposed to have sex until
Speaker 1: you're married, and so they're like, well, how could you
Speaker 1: wait that long to have sex? And people think that
Speaker 1: you're messing up if you wait a certain amount of time,
Speaker 1: because they're like, there's no way you're not doing it.
Speaker 1: So you're not lying, Yeah, exactly, And you do have
Speaker 1: sex before you get married. The bishop, who is like
Speaker 1: the man presiding over the ward or the community of Mormons,
Speaker 1: he probably usually makes you wait to get married. But
Speaker 1: that didn't happen to me. We didn't have sex before marriage.
Speaker 1: We got married when I was twenty, right after I
Speaker 1: turned twenty and then yeah, we were married for twelve years.
Speaker 1: I had four kids before I turned twenty nine. Wow,
Speaker 1: And can I ask you something really quick?
Speaker 2: When there are two Mormons a man and a woman,
Speaker 2: because we have some experience with a Mormon couple from
Speaker 2: years ago that came on the show, But is there
Speaker 2: one Like in a regular relationship, there's one person who's
Speaker 2: driving the we can't do it, it's bad, and then
Speaker 2: there's one person that's like, let's just fucking do it.
Speaker 2: There's usually like one driver. Was he trying to or
Speaker 2: is he such a goodie boy that like he's not
Speaker 2: even trying?
Speaker 1: No, he he. I wouldn't say he's such a goodie boy.
Speaker 1: But I think we both wanted to get married in
Speaker 1: the temple really badly, and so we were both committed
Speaker 1: to not And also it was like kind of easy
Speaker 1: for me not to yeah, like I would yeah, Like
Speaker 1: I was like, oh, like I'm not like dying to
Speaker 1: do this with this. Yeah right, I'm good, I'm good.
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah. And then on our wedding night was when
Speaker 1: we both had sex for the first time, and baby
Speaker 1: number one, Yeah, not quite but yeah, it was just
Speaker 1: almost turned twenty three when I had my first baby,
Speaker 1: so it was a few years later. Yeah.
Speaker 2: And then so you're living with four kids with this man,
Speaker 2: but you're probably so busy you don't even question it.
Speaker 1: No, No, but it's wild because I was having really
Speaker 1: intense death fantasies for years, and looking back, I'm like, Oh,
Speaker 1: it was my body, yeah, telling me that something is off.
Speaker 1: And even when we were first married, like I thought
Speaker 1: there was something wrong with me sexually, and I was like, well,
Speaker 1: I just need to go to like sex therapy. I've
Speaker 1: had really bad experiences with boys in high school and
Speaker 1: they just like took advantage of me and all these things,
Speaker 1: and so I was like, maybe I just like need
Speaker 1: to go to therapy and figure this out. And then
Speaker 1: I started like fantasizing about death, like him dying or
Speaker 1: me dying. And I didn't realize that that's what it
Speaker 1: was until I came out and I was like, oh,
Speaker 1: I wanted out of my body, out of my life
Speaker 1: because I wanted to experience fulfillment in sex but also
Speaker 1: in all aspects of my life as well. Are you
Speaker 1: talking to him about it? No? I didn't tell anybody
Speaker 1: I was so ashamed because my life looks perfect on paper.
Speaker 1: I had a husband, I had a big house, I
Speaker 1: had five star vacations, I had luxury cars, I had
Speaker 1: four kids. Everyone was healthy, everyone was good, like friend
Speaker 1: like a group of friends, like I had everything, and
Speaker 1: so I just felt so much shame and guilt about
Speaker 1: wanting to leave my life. And I didn't understand. Right, Oh,
Speaker 1: that makes so much sense totally.
Speaker 2: And so then four kids, are you like, how could
Speaker 2: I even leave my life?
Speaker 1: Like it's almost impossible? Yeah, yes, yeah, I mean I
Speaker 1: I never considered divorce. I only considered death really like
Speaker 1: that wasah, I know, but I find that, yeah, I've
Speaker 1: heard that.
Speaker 2: And then it takes like some situation to catalyze, like,
Speaker 2: oh wait, I want this other thing bad enough.
Speaker 1: So what happened? Yeah, so I so I have a catalyst.
Speaker 1: She's now my girlfriend. And I've never experienced this feeling,
Speaker 1: this love, like any of this before. But we actually
Speaker 1: met at a wedding. We were both in the bridal
Speaker 1: parties for the wifes who were getting married. She was
Speaker 1: in the one of the wife's side. I was on
Speaker 1: the other wife side, and I saw her and I
Speaker 1: was like, people look like that. Oh my god. Yeah,
Speaker 1: we're at the rehearsal dinner, so like all the bridal parties, like,
Speaker 1: we were getting to know each other, and her and
Speaker 1: I got to talking. She's also raised Mormon, and that's
Speaker 1: just like you have the same first language. When you
Speaker 1: meet people who are both who've been raised culturally like
Speaker 1: you in the same religion, high demand culty religion, you
Speaker 1: just have like this instant like oh my god, I
Speaker 1: get it kind of thing. And yeah, so that's what happened.
Speaker 1: And I was instantly just drawn to her and like,
Speaker 1: oh my god, like so beautiful. How do people look
Speaker 1: like this anyway? So then after that weekend, a bunch
Speaker 1: of the girls from the bridal parties came to my
Speaker 1: home in Salt Lake for Pride. This is last June.
Speaker 2: How are you guys all into this gay culture, gay
Speaker 2: wedding when you're Mormon?
Speaker 1: Like, was there also push back? Friend since fourth grade
Speaker 1: is gay and she came out too for twenty one
Speaker 1: twenty two and then yeah, so she was getting married
Speaker 1: and okay, and so they.
Speaker 2: Kind of just excuse it because it's like this is
Speaker 2: your old friend, Like you can't just not get my
Speaker 2: wedding Morgan's like.
Speaker 1: To it's it's complicated because the doctrine is like, no,
Speaker 1: you can't be gay, you can't go to heaven. But
Speaker 1: then Mormon people are not a lot of them that
Speaker 1: I know, are not like anti gay. They're not necessarily
Speaker 1: homophobic to your face. Maybe for me, like I've been
Speaker 1: loved on by my Mormon community since coming out, so
Speaker 1: and not all of them, I would say, but a lot.
Speaker 1: And yeah, so for me, like have my best friend
Speaker 1: be gay? It wasn't an issue for me at the time.
Speaker 1: But I actually left the Mormon Church before I came out,
Speaker 1: four years before I came out because of the homophobia. Wow,
Speaker 1: And I didn't recognize that I was seeing myself inside
Speaker 1: of what they were saying. And I felt really ashamed
Speaker 1: that it took me that long to leave when I
Speaker 1: had people that I deeply love who've been gay, and
Speaker 1: it took me so long to figure out, Oh, this
Speaker 1: is like harming people and the doctrine is not welcoming
Speaker 1: to them, and I subscribe to this and I'm a
Speaker 1: part of this, Like, it just took me a while
Speaker 1: to dismantle all of it and be like, I don't
Speaker 1: believe in this right and are.
Speaker 2: You telling your husband like I'm thinking about leaving or
Speaker 2: is it?
Speaker 1: Like how does that happen? Like you go to the
Speaker 1: wedding and then what Well, So this was four years
Speaker 1: before I met myself. Sorry we're backtracking a little bit. Yeah,
Speaker 1: four years before I had come out as gay. I
Speaker 1: left the Mormon Church because of the homophobia. Okay, there
Speaker 1: was a talk given. So in the Mormon Church, you're
Speaker 1: taught that these men speak for God, and one of
Speaker 1: them spoke about gay people, and basically it was like
Speaker 1: a message of proverbial violence. He was saying to point
Speaker 1: muskets towards those who threaten the church, and in the
Speaker 1: same breath was talking about gay people. So oh yeah,
Speaker 1: destroyed me. Like I was listening, I was like, oh,
Speaker 1: I love what he has to say. He's like so poetic.
Speaker 1: I'm going to listen to his talk. And I listened
Speaker 1: to it and I literally was on the floor for weeks,
Speaker 1: like I don't believe this. What Like he speaks for God?
Speaker 1: What do you mean? Like I don't, Yeah, this is
Speaker 1: not what I believe. Like no, And then I was
Speaker 1: like coming apart and I was newly pregnant with my
Speaker 1: fourth baby, which I actually think was kind of beautiful
Speaker 1: because she like, when you're pregnant, you're I don't know,
Speaker 1: like I'm very in tune spiritual, and like, I think
Speaker 1: she came to me to help guide me through that
Speaker 1: in certain ways, not to get like woo woo, but
Speaker 1: no yeah so yeah, but yeah, Like my husband saw
Speaker 1: me just not well and he told me he actually
Speaker 1: was like, you don't have to agree with him, and
Speaker 1: that I had never that blew my mind. I was like, wait,
Speaker 1: what do you mean. They speak for God, So if
Speaker 1: I don't agree with him, then I don't agree with God.
Speaker 1: And that was at the beginning of my whole deconstruction.
Speaker 1: I developed insomnia, OCD anxiety. People don't talk about that,
Speaker 1: like the physical reconcussions of leaving high demand religion. I
Speaker 1: also went to therapy and just completely deconstructed the Mormon
Speaker 1: Church and that took years, and I'm really glad that
Speaker 1: that happened, and then my gay awakening happened, because if
Speaker 1: that were to all happen at one time, I don't
Speaker 1: know if I would still be here. Yeah too too scary,
Speaker 1: Oh yes, exactly.
Speaker 3: And it's also like you had to let go of
Speaker 3: that one thing.
Speaker 1: To get to the other totally, totally yeah. And I
Speaker 1: think even after coming out as gay, I went through
Speaker 1: another deconstruction of not just Mormonism, but society and how
Speaker 1: I was conditioned to be straight my entire life and
Speaker 1: politics and like just everything I was just like everything
Speaker 1: was another deconstruction when I came out as well. So
Speaker 1: it was I'm glad I got the first one over
Speaker 1: with though. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So by the time you met the woman at
Speaker 2: the wedding, were you already kind of thinking you're gay
Speaker 2: or was that like I hadn't even crossed your mind.
Speaker 1: None of it. And I didn't even identify as bisexual,
Speaker 1: even though it was obvious that I was not straight
Speaker 1: to a lot of people. I had never even like
Speaker 1: thought that in my head. I had kissed many girls,
Speaker 1: like at sleepovers in high school, just the two of
Speaker 1: us in bed making out. Like I never even thought
Speaker 1: that I couldn't be anything. But even all of these
Speaker 1: like crushes on my babysitters as a kid, you know,
Speaker 1: like dirty dancing with girls at the middle school dance
Speaker 1: and like lugging its like I don't want to go
Speaker 1: with the boys, I want to girls. It was kind
Speaker 1: of instances I still had I just didn't have the language.
Speaker 1: I didn't I just didn't realize it. And so at
Speaker 1: the wedding, her and I meet and I am just
Speaker 1: like taken by her immediately. And at the day after
Speaker 1: the wedding, there's actually a photo of us that I
Speaker 1: have of me like all over her on the dance floor.
Speaker 2: Oh my god, she like, who is this straight girl?
Speaker 3: Is?
Speaker 1: She?
Speaker 4: Like?
Speaker 1: What?
Speaker 2: Who is this straight girl hitting on me?
Speaker 1: No, She's used to it. She she's used to like girls,
Speaker 1: gay girls, gay boys, straight boys, Like she's because she's masked,
Speaker 1: and so people are like, I think, I'm like what
Speaker 1: am I when they what am I? Yeah? Yeah, you
Speaker 1: know boys, my boys. Well I have been with her
Speaker 1: when boys are hitting on her, so yeah, gay boys wild.
Speaker 1: So she's just one of those people. But yeah, so
Speaker 1: she's used to it. But then the next day after
Speaker 1: the wedding, we went to a winery the bridal parties did,
Speaker 1: and and her and I were like singing girls camp
Speaker 1: songs and We're just like having the best time, and
Speaker 1: I'm like, what's happening. I have a photo of us
Speaker 1: at the winery too, where I'm like totally like leaning
Speaker 1: into her. Oh, my god, this is hilarious. And she's single. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: so and she's probably loving it. Oh yeah, she's having
Speaker 1: the time of her life. Yeah, she loves it. Yeah.
Speaker 1: And she's very funny and gregarious and outgoing and like sweet,
Speaker 1: and so it's easy to feel like it's easy for
Speaker 1: her to make you feel scene or that you're interesting
Speaker 1: because she that's just how she is with people. So yeah,
Speaker 1: I just was like, oh my god. So then after
Speaker 1: the wedding, I showed her photo to my sister, to
Speaker 1: my friends. I was like, she's so confusing, and they're like, yeah,
Speaker 1: she kind of is. Actually, yeah, what's happening to me?
Speaker 1: And then I literally was like thinking of our life
Speaker 1: together and how it would be to be with her,
Speaker 1: and I had never done that being married, like even
Speaker 1: with men, like being married to my husband. I had
Speaker 1: never dreamt of like a life with somebody else necessarily
Speaker 1: until then. And then I just like put that in
Speaker 1: like a box, deep down into the ocean, and like
Speaker 1: didn't even unpack it. I just was like, well, that
Speaker 1: was fun, and she's confusing and scares the hell out
Speaker 1: of me, but like, okay, what have you gone? Yeah?
Speaker 2: Yeah, but did she live close enough, Like was there
Speaker 2: a moment of like I've got to figure out how
Speaker 2: to have a reason to see her, or like how
Speaker 2: do I.
Speaker 1: Do the next step too? Yes, so we all like
Speaker 1: a bunch of the girls from the wedding come to
Speaker 1: my home for Pride in June. January was the wedding.
Speaker 1: June is Pride in Salt Lake City. And meanwhile, you're.
Speaker 2: Just building a life in your mind. There's no community.
Speaker 2: But then I kind of like put it down. It
Speaker 2: was like a few months of that, and then in March,
Speaker 2: I think it was just like okay, like I gotta
Speaker 2: move on.
Speaker 1: I have four kids, like yeah, And so then she
Speaker 1: was one of the girls that came to my house
Speaker 1: for Pride. There was a bunch of girls from all
Speaker 1: over the country that came. I think there was probably
Speaker 1: like twelve of us, and she was one of them.
Speaker 1: And I hosted it at my house because I had
Speaker 1: a big enough home to have people stay. And this
Speaker 1: was my first Pride. I'd never been to Pride. I'd
Speaker 1: always been an ally, always like a big ally. Love
Speaker 1: the Games always posted about Pride month, like Love the Game.
Speaker 1: That's where I left the church. So I was like
Speaker 1: I'm out and out as an outlly. Oh my god,
Speaker 1: yeah yeah. And I was always really like jealous of
Speaker 1: lesbian couples are just like I was just like, oh
Speaker 1: my god, like you guys love each other, Like what
Speaker 1: do you mean, Like what does that even look like?
Speaker 1: Like what? Yeah, okay, can I live in your home? Yeah? Exactly?
Speaker 1: Like can I crawl with you guys and watch how
Speaker 1: this works? Because I just want to see, like what
Speaker 1: do you mean? But yeah, I she was one of them.
Speaker 1: I was terrified thought she was coming. I was like, no, no, no,
Speaker 1: you're too scary, Like I don't know, I don't know
Speaker 1: something's gonna happen. Probably I don't know what's gonna happen.
Speaker 1: So anyway, the whole weekend she's there, we are having
Speaker 1: the best time. Everyone is just like it's Pride, so
Speaker 1: everyone's like kissing each other and like we're all just
Speaker 1: like having such a good time. We have like themed nights,
Speaker 1: we're all dressed up. You know, it's so fun. And
Speaker 1: the whole weekend I want to sit next to her.
Speaker 1: I want to be near her. I want to get
Speaker 1: to know her. And she had no clue what no
Speaker 1: clue that I was.
Speaker 2: I was like, she thought you were just like the host,
Speaker 2: like being such a good host.
Speaker 1: I guess. So, yeah, this is like her perspective on it,
Speaker 1: because she just thought I was like a bored married woman. Okay, yes,
Speaker 1: she's like this, this is the tale as old as
Speaker 1: time for her kind of thing.
Speaker 3: So okay, another one, another, one, another one.
Speaker 1: Exactly like she's been people's like gay experiment, you know,
Speaker 1: and then she will be like, no, you're straight, like
Speaker 1: you're not gay. I've been with women who are gay
Speaker 1: and you're not, or yes, you're gay kind of thing.
Speaker 1: So anyway, we kissed on the last night of Pride,
Speaker 1: and it was like a three second kiss. And I've
Speaker 1: been kissing everybody, like everyone was kissing everybody, but this
Speaker 1: one obviously was different for me because I had already
Speaker 1: felt so incredibly drawn to her, and so it was
Speaker 1: like a three second kiss on the dance floor at
Speaker 1: a gay club the last night of Pride, and my
Speaker 1: entire body exploded like I had never felt that before.
Speaker 4: And I was like, oh my god, my entire life,
Speaker 4: Oh my god, did she but it was only three seconds.
Speaker 1: Yes, it was. It was literally this.
Speaker 2: The hand movement, Okay, and then was she also like
Speaker 2: then what like, then it's the last night.
Speaker 1: Now you wasted the whole trip, Like oh no, I'm
Speaker 1: feeling this girl, but I was married for kids whatever,
Speaker 1: and the start of my deconstruction. I kissed her. And
Speaker 1: then two days later I called my friend and I
Speaker 1: was like sobbing. I was like I think I'm bisexual,
Speaker 1: and she was like, oh my god, okay, okay, and
Speaker 1: then I told her everything and I was like what
Speaker 1: do I do? Oh my god. So then it took
Speaker 1: me like a month. Well then like a week later
Speaker 1: I was like, wait, am I gay? And then my
Speaker 1: whole body like there was like this rush and this buzzing,
Speaker 1: and I did it that am I gay? Quizzes online
Speaker 1: I watched like the late life lesbian content that I
Speaker 1: could find, and it was just so scary, the scariest
Speaker 1: thing ever. I was like no, no, no, no, no no no
Speaker 1: no no no no, no, return to send her. I
Speaker 1: don't want this. I don't want this. No no, Like
Speaker 1: I have the perfect life, I don't want this. This
Speaker 1: is not Nope. I cannot choose to ignore this or
Speaker 1: choose to live this. That that is an impossible choice.
Speaker 2: Like right, I don't want this and your babies are
Speaker 2: still little at this point, how old?
Speaker 1: How old is currently? They're ten, eight, six and four.
Speaker 1: They're still little, so how old? Back then it was
Speaker 1: like yeah, okay, yeah, this was a year ago, so
Speaker 1: yeah they were yeah, yeah, yep, okay, so yeah. So
Speaker 1: it took me about a month to figure out what
Speaker 1: I wanted to say to my husband, and uh, I
Speaker 1: the longer that I kind of accepted that I I'm
Speaker 1: probably gay, the better it felt, or the more true
Speaker 1: it felt. I don't know if it better is the
Speaker 1: right word, but true, I guess, and and I the
Speaker 1: death fantasies and all of that started making sense, and
Speaker 1: the lack of certain fulfillment in certain parts of my
Speaker 1: life and my marriage made sense, and I no longer
Speaker 1: felt broken, and the death fantasies actually stopped right when
Speaker 1: I came because I was like, I want to live.
Speaker 1: I want to live and experience myself fully and authentically.
Speaker 1: I want this journey and I want to feel the
Speaker 1: feelings that I've been missing my entire life, and now
Speaker 1: I get to if I can just accept this and
Speaker 1: live in it, then I get to feel those Yeah,
Speaker 1: but I have to do the really scary part first,
Speaker 1: very scary part. Yes, and so a month or sorry,
Speaker 1: a year ago yesterday, actually I came out to my
Speaker 1: ex husband. Wow, and that was the scary. I was
Speaker 1: like skin and bones. I hadn't eaten for weeks. I
Speaker 1: probably lost like fifteen to twenty pounds in like three weeks. Damn. Yes,
Speaker 1: And it was just the most terrifying moment of my life.
Speaker 1: It's awful.
Speaker 2: I mean, it is the it's the worst that in
Speaker 2: the parents conversation to me was the worst, telling my
Speaker 2: mom and dad and telling Chris. But during that time,
Speaker 2: are you confiding in your partner that, like, I think
Speaker 2: I'm to do it, and is she kind of like
Speaker 2: do it for you not me?
Speaker 1: Or like what is that conversation? Yes? I actually came
Speaker 1: out to her two days before I came out to him,
Speaker 1: because her and I were kind of chatting after Pride.
Speaker 1: Little did she know that I was literally like coming
Speaker 1: apart and coming out to myself. She did not exactly exactly.
Speaker 1: We got to get to that story for sure, oh
Speaker 1: so much. So yeah, yeah, but yeah, no, I she
Speaker 1: didn't know. Like we were just texting us friends and
Speaker 1: it was a little bit flirty. But I I was
Speaker 1: just like losing my mind. I mean yeah, as you
Speaker 1: guys know, like it's just horrible to have a gay
Speaker 1: awakening later in life. Also the best thing to like
Speaker 1: truly the best thing. Yeah, yes, exactly exactly. And so yeah,
Speaker 1: I came out to her two days before and kind
Speaker 1: of shared with her like you were the reason why
Speaker 1: I figured this out, and even like from the when
Speaker 1: I saw you, like I just knew you. It's weird.
Speaker 1: I mean, I didn't share that with her until like
Speaker 1: much later, because we can't scare her. We don't want
Speaker 1: to scare her away. Yeah, but yeah, and so I
Speaker 1: came out to her two days before, and then I
Speaker 1: came out to him, and she never pressured me in
Speaker 1: any way to get divorced to be with her, nothing
Speaker 1: like that. It was all my decision ultimately to do
Speaker 1: what I did. She never was like choose me, pick
Speaker 1: me kind of thing. She just needed to know if
Speaker 1: she should leave or not, like if she should go
Speaker 1: on her merry way, or if she could still offer
Speaker 1: me support or whatever, wait for you to like get there,
Speaker 1: yes exactly, yeah, yeah, so she she was so helpful
Speaker 1: in my journey in every way obviously, just because she
Speaker 1: is who she is but she also was there with
Speaker 1: me through a lot of the really really hard parts,
Speaker 1: losing friends, losing like getting awful text messages from my
Speaker 1: in laws, you know, like she was there with me,
Speaker 1: not as someone We hadn't gone on a date, we
Speaker 1: weren't dating. She just was there for me. And in
Speaker 1: all of the ways. Did she have kids or no kids? No,
Speaker 1: she's been day since she was in her young twenties
Speaker 1: or knew she was day. So yeah, she's she's actually
Speaker 1: never been with a man, never really dated a man before. Okay, god, wow,
Speaker 1: then did she So you tell him?
Speaker 2: And then are you like waiting then to call her
Speaker 2: and be like, Okay, I fucking did it? And then
Speaker 2: did you have Like Melissa and I talk about how
Speaker 2: like after you do that, there are moments where you're like,
Speaker 2: oh my god, what the fuck did I just do?
Speaker 1: Yeah, shouldn't have done that?
Speaker 2: Like, oh I just blew up my life? And then
Speaker 2: would that freak her out?
Speaker 1: Or was she like you do you? I think what
Speaker 1: I told her from the very beginning that I was
Speaker 1: always going to be really honest with her because I
Speaker 1: didn't want her to feel like an experiment. I had.
Speaker 1: I have so much respect for her, and I was
Speaker 1: feeling things that I've never felt for somebody before already,
Speaker 1: even just after seeing her and then kissing her and
Speaker 1: then coming out to her and all of that, Like,
Speaker 1: I was developing feelings. And I ended up telling my
Speaker 1: ex that like, I'm falling in love with a woman.
Speaker 1: And I told him, you know, about the kiss and everything,
Speaker 1: and I was like, I don't know what to do,
Speaker 1: and he was like, well, you need to break up
Speaker 1: with her, like we need to make this, we need
Speaker 1: to try here. And it was very apparent to me
Speaker 1: that I would rather break up with him than her,
Speaker 1: and that was that. I mean, I hadn't even gone
Speaker 1: on a date with her. I was like, I'm fucking crazy,
Speaker 1: Like what do you mean, right? But I just it
Speaker 1: was more about me than her necessary Like I didn't.
Speaker 1: I had finally discovered this part of myself and it
Speaker 1: felt like such a big relief as loo as it
Speaker 1: did painful. And so I was like, if I break
Speaker 1: up with her, that to me is saying that I'm
Speaker 1: going to put that part of myself back in that
Speaker 1: box and shove it down again, and I can't survive that.
Speaker 1: I don't know if I can survive doing that, and
Speaker 1: so it was more about choosing me over anything else
Speaker 1: in that moment, and I was honest with her. I
Speaker 1: was like, I need more time. And you know, a
Speaker 1: week or two later, I separated from my ex. Damn, Okay,
Speaker 1: so you knew. Yeah, it's like, yeah, how has he been? Yeah,
Speaker 1: he has been. I think it was. I don't want
Speaker 1: to speak for him, but I think it was obviously
Speaker 1: really difficult for me to come out to him. I
Speaker 1: think it's embarrassing in a way for certain men.
Speaker 4: I don't.
Speaker 1: I think it was hard for him to accept that
Speaker 1: I'm gay and not bisexual. I think that that was difficult,
Speaker 1: but there were I think it's also nuanced when you
Speaker 1: come out as gay, or at least for me and
Speaker 1: a lot of other women, typically there's a whole paragraph
Speaker 1: of reasons why the marriage didn't work, and then it's
Speaker 1: and then I'm also gay kind of thing, and that's
Speaker 1: kind of how I feel about it. And so I
Speaker 1: feel like it was going to end and I was
Speaker 1: going to figure out I was gay eventually, and this
Speaker 1: is how my story went.
Speaker 2: How about with the kids, Like, if you found like
Speaker 2: you separate and then I don't know how your marriage was,
Speaker 2: but is that like that's another kind of new thing
Speaker 2: where it's like you have them half the time, like
Speaker 2: I'm Moissa, and I grappled with that where it was like, God,
Speaker 2: I knew it was going to be hard, but there
Speaker 2: are these waves of like pain of like you're driving away.
Speaker 1: With my baby right now, but yes, I want Yeah.
Speaker 1: The most painful, Yeah, is the kids and the guilt
Speaker 1: and the feeling selfish and just turning their world upside down.
Speaker 1: It's awful. But the thing is is I was actually
Speaker 1: able to live in the basement apartment of the home
Speaker 1: that we owned together from August until May of this year.
Speaker 1: So amazing. Yeah, so I was. I was able to
Speaker 1: kind of be down there. Healed. Their lives didn't change
Speaker 1: it all was. I was just like kind of holding
Speaker 1: up and starting to rebuild. I started writing on substock
Speaker 1: in September and then came out publicly on my substock
Speaker 1: in November, and then I started making late in Life
Speaker 1: lesbian content after that and just trying to find the
Speaker 1: women who needed to hear very specific things about this
Speaker 1: experience because it is so nuanced or so just specific
Speaker 1: and so alienating. Yes, very isolating, And so I was
Speaker 1: like I need someone to speak to these certain experiences
Speaker 1: that I didn't see on the internet when I was
Speaker 1: coming out. So that's kind of how that went. And
Speaker 1: then I eventually was like, I have to move out
Speaker 1: of here, like I need my own space. I want
Speaker 1: to rebuild my life in my own area. And so
Speaker 1: I didn't know how I was going to make that
Speaker 1: work financially, but then I started my membership on Instagram
Speaker 1: and in the first month it did so well that
Speaker 1: I was able to sign a lease and move out. Amazing. Yeah,
Speaker 1: we talk about that too.
Speaker 2: When you start living authentically, your business, like just other
Speaker 2: parts of your life transform totally, totally because you would
Speaker 2: have never done that if you were married out with
Speaker 2: those kids, Like why would you know?
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I tried a little bit. I was
Speaker 1: posting like fashion and makeup content on TikTok, and I
Speaker 1: was doing makeup and stuff, but it wasn't it wasn't
Speaker 1: fulfilling me, and I would start and then stop and
Speaker 1: start and stop. And so I've been making content for
Speaker 1: a long time. But then this kind of content that
Speaker 1: I'm making now, where I'm just vulnerable and speaking straight
Speaker 1: from my heart and gathering women together is exactly where
Speaker 1: I'm supposed to be, and I don't feel like it's
Speaker 1: a chore. I don't feel like it's work necessarily. I
Speaker 1: am so passionate about it and I feel so heart led,
Speaker 1: and I'm just obsessed with the women that I get
Speaker 1: to connect with because of the content that I make.
Speaker 2: Okay, well, I would be remiss if I didn't ask
Speaker 2: you about googling scissoring on the side of the outted.
Speaker 1: And then I also want to know where you stand
Speaker 1: with the woman, like where if you guys are what
Speaker 1: that is.
Speaker 2: But let's start with scissoring, because I think that's what
Speaker 2: everybody really.
Speaker 1: Wants to talk about. I love talking about sex. By
Speaker 1: the way, so fun, So it is fun. Came out
Speaker 1: before i'd ever been with a woman. I had never
Speaker 1: been on a day with a woman. I'd never had
Speaker 1: sex with a woman. I never watched lesbian porn. I
Speaker 1: didn't even know what scissoring was. Like I knew I
Speaker 1: was gay, and then I started researching things and so
Speaker 1: I remember, Yeah, it was a few days after I
Speaker 1: came out, and I was like, well, I'm gonna like
Speaker 1: have sex with a woman. Yeah, And I was like,
Speaker 1: I don't even know like what what it is? And
Speaker 1: the only like thing I knew. I mean, I heard
Speaker 1: like scissoring in like straight space.
Speaker 2: Some people think that's an urban legend like that that
Speaker 2: doesn't really happen.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like who whatever kind of And I was like,
Speaker 1: what is it though, because like sounds fun? So yeah,
Speaker 1: I was still like skin and bones. I was still
Speaker 1: like not well after I'd come out, I was terrified.
Speaker 1: I was just riddled with fear. But I remember sitting
Speaker 1: on the bathtub waiting for the bath to fill up,
Speaker 1: and I googled scissoring positions and like just drawn images
Speaker 1: of them, and I was getting really turned on in
Speaker 1: the bathtub totally. I was like, wait, this is the thing,
Speaker 1: this is the thing. And then like even standing up
Speaker 1: and like rubbing on like the upper thigh like at
Speaker 1: the same time, I was just like I'm gonna do that. Yes,
Speaker 1: I do that.
Speaker 2: Oh was it always about the one babe? Was it
Speaker 2: always about the one girl?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, Oh there's something so sweet about that.
Speaker 1: Yeah. She's she's my love, like she's my I've never
Speaker 1: felt this before in my life, Like she's she lives
Speaker 1: in Vegas. I live in Salt Lakes she's gonna move
Speaker 1: here probably in the end of the year, like we're
Speaker 1: I am so deeply in love and uh, like just
Speaker 1: I've never I didn't know this is how people feel.
Speaker 1: I had no idea that people feel this way and
Speaker 1: that I get to that I get to feel it, yeah,
Speaker 1: of course.
Speaker 2: And then also like I'm curious, we've we've we talked
Speaker 2: about this at a dinner thing that I had, our
Speaker 2: thing I had at my house.
Speaker 1: A couple of weeks ago. But how do you.
Speaker 2: Define sex between two women with men?
Speaker 1: It's very obvious, how do you define I think it's
Speaker 1: just physical intimacy, sexual intimacy in general, like sex for
Speaker 1: us can be I don't know, ten minutes, or it
Speaker 1: can be three hours. It just I think it's I
Speaker 1: think maybe I don't really know how to define it.
Speaker 1: I think it's just physical intimacy, like it can be anything.
Speaker 1: Some people think it has to be like oral. I
Speaker 1: don't agree. Some people think it might have to be
Speaker 1: like straps. I don't agree. I think it's all of it.
Speaker 1: And yeah, I think I think it's an interesting thing.
Speaker 1: What we've been taught about sex, yea from a young
Speaker 1: age of like penis and vagina. Yeah, that sex, and
Speaker 1: it's like, no, actually, I think it's all of it,
Speaker 1: and I don't think. I think there's a lot of
Speaker 1: lesbian erasure actually because of that it's involved. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: people are like, well, you've never had sex because you've
Speaker 1: never had sex with a man, and it's like a
Speaker 1: lot of sex. No, yeah, you like that's just completely
Speaker 1: homophobic and just yeah, erases lesbian sex and erases all
Speaker 1: of that woman's sexual experience.
Speaker 2: Like I think, yeah, I've never heard that term lesbian erasure,
Speaker 2: but it is true. Yeah, if you define it that way,
Speaker 2: then it's like we're just over here not having sex,
Speaker 2: when actually the research shows that lesbians have more orgasms
Speaker 2: and have better sex, and hetero couples they have more storagisms,
Speaker 2: they're the happiest sex totally.
Speaker 3: And if we're not having sex, then we're getting into heaven.
Speaker 2: So with the added bonus, there you go.
Speaker 1: There you go exactly. I agree, And I like I
Speaker 1: look back at my marriage and then I you know,
Speaker 1: my friends who are in heterosexual relationships, and I'm like, oh,
Speaker 1: like it's just it's like it I lost, are we
Speaker 1: like heterosexual people sometimes can lose like the intimacy or
Speaker 1: like the like yeah, oh, the like ever, like sometimes
Speaker 1: we're just like rubbing like our lips on each other's
Speaker 1: jaws and neck while we're like having sex and it's
Speaker 1: like the most intimate, beautiful, like connecting thing ever and
Speaker 1: like saying like I love you, I'm in love with
Speaker 1: you kind of thing that's not like I don't know
Speaker 1: many straight people that are doing that. No, zero, this
Speaker 1: many yeah, yeah, And I don't want to be like heterophobic,
Speaker 1: but no, but we are. We are here, we are like, wait,
Speaker 1: you actually like it though, because we don't like it,
Speaker 1: you can't possibly like that. I don't please, I don't know.
Speaker 1: I don't believe you is yours. So how often do
Speaker 1: you guys get to see each other? It depends. Neither
Speaker 1: of us have traditional jobs, so we're able to see
Speaker 1: each other kind of. It used to be longer stretches.
Speaker 1: Now we try and see each other like every eight days.
Speaker 1: It used to be like fourteen to fifteen days. But
Speaker 1: it's just really hard, Like we when we leave, like
Speaker 1: we don't want to be without each other. We want
Speaker 1: to like build a life together and we want to
Speaker 1: be together. And so it's actually beautiful too to fall
Speaker 1: in love with someone long distance and to miss each
Speaker 1: other and like, yearn I have I make this. I
Speaker 1: have this playlist I made for her that I listen
Speaker 1: to all the time, and I just like miss her
Speaker 1: and like I'm already and we're not going to get
Speaker 1: married for a long time, but I am already riding
Speaker 1: my vows. Like I'm thinking, like I'm like, so, I'm like, okay,
Speaker 1: I'm going.
Speaker 2: To put that in there, and your gets out notes
Speaker 2: app and is like just taking the thoughts down.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's amazing.
Speaker 3: It's going to be a three hour long wedding exactly exactly.
Speaker 2: But people do say that about long distance, like Melissa
Speaker 2: has been in some long distance relationships and that you
Speaker 2: do like develop in a way that's like you when
Speaker 2: you're present together, you're very present.
Speaker 1: Together, yes, and yeah, it's beautiful. It's it's a it's
Speaker 1: a beautiful thing that we get to, yeah, be really
Speaker 1: present together and we're like it's hot and heavy, but
Speaker 1: it's yeah, yeah, it's very like we we talk all
Speaker 1: day sometimes and like FaceTime or text and she goes
Speaker 1: to bed after I do, so she'll text me before
Speaker 1: she goes to bed with a good morning text. Every
Speaker 1: day and then I will text her and then she
Speaker 1: can wake up to her good morning text because she
Speaker 1: wakes up after me. So oh my god. Yeah, things
Speaker 1: like that. I love it. I absolutely love it.
Speaker 2: Well, we're so excited for you, and thank you for
Speaker 2: coming on like you're a.
Speaker 1: Breath of fresh air having me so last minute. I'm
Speaker 1: so glad we did this. You guys are so fun
Speaker 1: to talk to. Where can people find you? So? I
Speaker 1: am on Instagram, TikTok, Facebook at Ramona kay Smith Okay,
Speaker 1: and yep, I'm on there every day. I answer my dms.
Speaker 1: I am always trying to support women coming out later
Speaker 1: in life. I actually have a couple of men DM
Speaker 1: and me too who are coming out later in life
Speaker 1: and your wives and yeah, so I've got to And
Speaker 1: then I have a few trans girls in my group
Speaker 1: that I host on Instagram. So yeah, it's it's I
Speaker 1: I love what I do. I love connecting with people,
Speaker 1: and I'm so glad we got to chat. Yeah, me too.
Speaker 2: Can I have one more question though? Mormon you're no
Speaker 2: longer in the Mormon Church, but do.
Speaker 1: You still have faith? I? Yes, I do, Yes, I do,
Speaker 1: but it's it's not religious faith. Yeah, Yeah, I definitely
Speaker 1: believe in in something beyond the three D foreshore, and
Speaker 1: I'm really into woo wu. I love to meditate, I
Speaker 1: love I love too, I love like frequencies and vibrations
Speaker 1: and all of that stuff. So I'm really into all
Speaker 1: of that. But no, I don't have a religious faith. Okay, No,
Speaker 1: that's really cool.
Speaker 2: Started doing the fire like you burn, you burn the
Speaker 2: things you're releasing, and then on the full moon you
Speaker 2: do the manifesting.
Speaker 1: I've just started that. There's actually a full un coming
Speaker 1: up pretty soon that I'm coming excited. Yeah, so I
Speaker 1: love it, Yes, go go it. I love all of that.
Speaker 1: I think it's it's there's definitely something to it, for sure.
Speaker 2: I would agree. Well, you've been a pleasure. Thank you
Speaker 2: so much. We'll tag you and people can find you.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much. This was so fun. Thank you,
Speaker 1: Thank you so much.
Speaker 4: Guys.
Speaker 1: Bye bye bye bye. I want to support the Lesbian
Speaker 1: Chronicles podcast.
Speaker 3: Rate us and write a review on Apple podcast or Spotify.
Speaker 1: We love listener feedback.
Speaker 2: If you'd like to share your story, email us at
Speaker 2: Melissa and Ali at gmail dot com.
Speaker 1: That's Melissa M. E. L. I. S A and Ali A. L.
Speaker 2: L I at gmail dot com or follow us on
Speaker 2: Instagram at Lesbian Chronicles