Speaker 1: If you think about it from our crypto perspective, custody
Speaker 1: could be a phenomenal place they could deep right into
Speaker 1: Many of the banks has not been able to create
Speaker 1: let's say, the best user experience or the cheapest or
Speaker 1: the most secure way of actually storing your crypto. And
Speaker 1: for me still I think there's nothing who beats you know, Kedano,
Speaker 1: a bit kind on a hardware wallet. I mean this
Speaker 1: basically keeps it in your control.
Speaker 2: Do you see the evolution of financial markets and banking
Speaker 2: going on chain where it's no longer let's say a
Speaker 2: brick and mortar location, but it's on my phone a wallet.
Speaker 1: Well, yes and no. We have to kind of think
Speaker 1: about what is banking and what has banking become?
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Speaker 2: Hey, folks, welcome into the Thinking Crypto Podcast. I'm your host,
Speaker 2: Tony Edward and joining me today is Frederick Gregard, who
Speaker 2: is the CEO of the Cardano Foundation. Frederick, great to have.
Speaker 1: You, Thank you, Thank you for having me. Frederick.
Speaker 2: A lot's happening with Cardano and I'm excited to dive
Speaker 2: into the details and all the newly exciting initiatives. Let's
Speaker 2: kick it off with your background. Tell us a bit
Speaker 2: about yourself and your professional background.
Speaker 1: Oh that's always an amazing question. And I guess I've
Speaker 1: been building banks for about twenty years in one way
Speaker 1: or another. So it turned out I was not the
Speaker 1: best sort of trader myself. I was a bit too emotional.
Speaker 1: So I stuck my nose deep into the technology and
Speaker 1: saught Okay, if I just had better technology, if I
Speaker 1: had faster lines like radiant lines and no frequency and
Speaker 1: you know, high frequency trading and no latency and really
Speaker 1: short of like, you know, use technology to my advantage.
Speaker 1: But I was still a bit too emotional. So I
Speaker 1: went readly deep into infrastructure banking and spent the close
Speaker 1: to twenty years building banks and asset managers and investment
Speaker 1: banking rails, while I started dappering into crypto and blockchain.
Speaker 2: For real, that's amazing that line. I build banks, and
Speaker 2: it's amazing that you're now here in crypto. So do
Speaker 2: you see the evolution of financial markets and banking going
Speaker 2: on chain where it's no longer let's say, a brick
Speaker 2: and mortar location, but it's on my phone a wallet.
Speaker 1: Well, yes and no, so we have to kind of
Speaker 1: think about what is banking and what has banking become? Right?
Speaker 1: But I think diffinitely you would see is much better
Speaker 1: user experience on your phone and you'll be able to
Speaker 1: do much more things. Unfortunately, we are still fighting a
Speaker 1: little bit with finding it the right place for banking. Right,
Speaker 1: So what should they actually do? I mean, if you
Speaker 1: think about it from a crypto perspective, right custody could
Speaker 1: be a phenomenal place they could dab right into, but
Speaker 1: many of the banks has not been able to create
Speaker 1: let's say, the best user experience or the cheapest or
Speaker 1: the most secure way of actually storing your crypto. And
Speaker 1: in many ways for me still I think there's nothing
Speaker 1: who beats you know, Karano or a bitcoin on a
Speaker 1: hardware wallet. Hunh. I mean this basically keeps it in
Speaker 1: your control, but it also requires that you have more education, right,
Speaker 1: and it requires that you take responsibility of your own life.
Speaker 1: And there is some people who are still saying some
Speaker 1: two businesses to do that. And therefore, you know, you know,
Speaker 1: going to a crypto custodian or going to even a
Speaker 1: bank who has highest scrutiny around that is a good option.
Speaker 1: And when you go go to sharing risk for instance, right,
Speaker 1: we've seen that most banks don't share risk anymore. In
Speaker 1: the old days, you know, it was very frequent that
Speaker 1: you know, the banker was on the board, right, or
Speaker 1: the banker was helping to do a generation change and
Speaker 1: stuff like that. That's we nearly don't see that anymore.
Speaker 1: I find that's a shame. I mean, banks actually do
Speaker 1: have a role to play, but it has to be
Speaker 1: aligned with what the clients want and expect, and I've
Speaker 1: seen less of that in the last sort of eight
Speaker 1: to ten years unfortunately.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a great point, because we are seeing the
Speaker 2: convergence of tradifying crypto. And to your point, a lot
Speaker 2: of the banks are now partnering with exchanges to offer
Speaker 2: crypto trading, some are launching stable coins, some are doing
Speaker 2: custody as well. And to your point, there's going to
Speaker 2: be a segment of the population who's going to say, look,
Speaker 2: the private keys are scary to me, and custoding my
Speaker 2: own crypto assets, I'm too scared of that. But I
Speaker 2: trust maybe JP Morgan or City Bank, which I've been
Speaker 2: using for a long time. I put my money in there,
Speaker 2: I may use them for custodial services, So I guess
Speaker 2: you know, to your point, some folks are going to
Speaker 2: go that direction, right, Yeah.
Speaker 1: I think what we're seeing more innovation is actually in
Speaker 1: the asset management space. I don't know if you notice, right,
Speaker 1: but the Karana Foundation actually was that the London Stock
Speaker 1: Exchange that was bringing the bill a couple of weeks back, right,
Speaker 1: because we actually tokenized a reinsurance product and normally the
Speaker 1: entry ticket for that is one hundred million dollars, and
Speaker 1: you know that's nearly everybody, nearly impossible and therefore the
Speaker 1: only access to that is through investment banks are really
Speaker 1: last asset managers. But we've been able to bring that
Speaker 1: on chain on Karana, right, and we're able to do
Speaker 1: that with the highest level of security and compliance, and
Speaker 1: that's why also we could list that on the you know,
Speaker 1: on a Tier one stock exchange with the London Storage Change.
Speaker 1: And now this week actually you know, the most successful
Speaker 1: etf ever created, the black Rock Bitcoin etc. Have actually
Speaker 1: launched on the London Storage Change And I find that
Speaker 1: sort of quite cool, right because we actually made it
Speaker 1: to a Tier one European stock exchange with a Kardano
Speaker 1: r W, a product before black Rock did. But you know,
Speaker 1: hands down still as I still think the asset managers
Speaker 1: are starting to do some really innovation. Another example, and
Speaker 1: that is we've been working with Franklin Templeton, which is
Speaker 1: sort of the third largest, fourth largest asset manager in
Speaker 1: the world, and they actually run ten different notes, So
Speaker 1: they run a Bitcoin note in the Theium note, but
Speaker 1: they also run a Cadano note. And Genning, the CEO there,
Speaker 1: has you know, for a long time been you know,
Speaker 1: tokenizing things sort of like for instance, the Benji which
Speaker 1: is their money market fund and I think this, you know,
Speaker 1: you've done some real numbers on it, and I actually
Speaker 1: find that running decline registry on the blockchain actually can
Speaker 1: cut cost and increase operation resilience. So I do think that,
Speaker 1: you know, there's some real transformation happening right now in
Speaker 1: the asset management space and less so in the banking space.
Speaker 2: Absolutely. So let's double click on the tokenization happening on Cardano,
Speaker 2: which is really great. You highlighted some great examples there.
Speaker 2: How are you you interacting with these institutions who are
Speaker 2: looking to tokenize and let's say they want to pick
Speaker 2: Cardano the blockchain to you know, tokenize money market funds,
Speaker 2: stocks and other assets.
Speaker 1: So, I mean there's still a big aspect of pilots
Speaker 1: and MVPs and parks right and I think what mainly
Speaker 1: asset managers are looking at right now is to figuring
Speaker 1: out if we can create a new settlement layer or
Speaker 1: a new custodial layer, so basically changing the FMI because
Speaker 1: there's a lot of extra fat on that infrastructure. There's
Speaker 1: a lot of intermediaries. And I think with you know,
Speaker 1: crypto and blockchain becoming you know, acceptable acceptable technologies, not
Speaker 1: for everything, but it's getting there, right. It increases this
Speaker 1: you know, if we can just you know, get a
Speaker 1: one percent improvement, we can actually share that with our
Speaker 1: clients and that actually shows in the performance and gives
Speaker 1: us a better tracking era. And what we do very
Speaker 1: specifically with the Karana Foundation is we help them with
Speaker 1: the technical integration. So the Karana Foundation is actually the
Speaker 1: one who built and maintains the tooling you need as
Speaker 1: an institution to integrate with Kardano. Now you can run
Speaker 1: completely native and build your own right, but you can
Speaker 1: also run the supported tools from the Karana Foundation. So
Speaker 1: we have an integration team working with about you know,
Speaker 1: one hundred two hundred and fifty banks in exchanges and
Speaker 1: asset managers on these types of integration, which also includes
Speaker 1: custodians worldwide. The other thing we do is we help
Speaker 1: them on the regulatory side. So we are very closely
Speaker 1: anchored with our legal team, and we speak with the
Speaker 1: European Parliament, we speak with the you know, the US regulators,
Speaker 1: we speak with American regulators, we speak with ms I'm
Speaker 1: here right now in Dubai speaking with Vara ADGM right,
Speaker 1: So we work very very close with them and we
Speaker 1: understand the current regulation. That means that we can help
Speaker 1: them on the intersection between thread fire and blockchain and
Speaker 1: bring them you know, an extra level of comforward. It
Speaker 1: is true that they would like to go with their
Speaker 1: own lawyers and they would like, you know, to have
Speaker 1: their own teams doing that, but you can shortcut quite
Speaker 1: a lot by using the knowledge from the Karana Foundation.
Speaker 1: And then last, but not least, we give distribution, right
Speaker 1: so we you know, when we actually going to Copenhagen
Speaker 1: next week because we want a price launching a et
Speaker 1: P as an exchange traded product together with United Nations
Speaker 1: Human Tearing Crisis Organization, which is an alternative way to
Speaker 1: basically give funding to ngngos who's looking for that in
Speaker 1: this case for displaced people. So we also, you know,
Speaker 1: we're quite innovative and do some financial engineering with you know,
Speaker 1: partners and others to show the power of blockchain for good.
Speaker 1: So it's just a couple of examples on how that works.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's really great. And then you mentioned regulations and uh,
Speaker 2: you know, the card Owner Foundation joined the Micro Crypto Alliance.
Speaker 2: Tell us about that and you know, working in the
Speaker 2: EU space.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so we've actually been part of also negotiating the
Speaker 1: first you know, the first micro regime, right, which is
Speaker 1: the stable current policy for the European Parliament. And you know,
Speaker 1: I feel quite strongly that actually the the intent of
Speaker 1: this was amazing, but the implementation was not so good.
Speaker 1: And that's what you see right now with the clarity
Speaker 1: and the geniac which basically superseds and and creates your
Speaker 1: huge growth, but all stability and some clarity on the
Speaker 1: US side, where more on the European side due to
Speaker 1: the implementation, And what basically has happened is that crypto
Speaker 1: companies are basically running away from the European Union. And
Speaker 1: that's a that's really that was not the intent, right.
Speaker 1: The intent was to actually create certainty and create jobs
Speaker 1: and create opportunities for the European Union, including you know,
Speaker 1: adding some more to the captor markets at large, right,
Speaker 1: because caviacter markets is a dollar based economy, right, and
Speaker 1: there were some ideas that this could help on the
Speaker 1: on the European So on the euroside. Now, US joining
Speaker 1: the MICAH Alliance is really a big step because what
Speaker 1: we found was that we were quite alone in these discussions.
Speaker 1: So alone means we were alone from the protocol side, right,
Speaker 1: so we were the own the protocol at the table
Speaker 1: discussing that the rest was you know, the very large
Speaker 1: stable coins and the very large, extremely regulated centralized exchanges, right,
Speaker 1: And they basically said, yeah, well it's okay. We are
Speaker 1: regulated in multiple jurisdictions, so everything is financial. That might
Speaker 1: be true, right, But when we start going you know,
Speaker 1: into DeFi, or we start going you know, along the
Speaker 1: axis of financial engineering and blockchain, well not everything is
Speaker 1: playing cod you know, financial markets. Joining the MECARE Alliance
Speaker 1: for us is really a fantastic opportunity to not be
Speaker 1: the only one at the table. And I think if
Speaker 1: you look at it from a market cap perspective, you know,
Speaker 1: the more market cap who participate in the MECARE Alliance
Speaker 1: from a protocol level, who sits at the table and
Speaker 1: can speak as adults and understand the current regulation, understand
Speaker 1: the current financial market infrastructure, and can understand blockchain and
Speaker 1: can push in a direction that we can still have
Speaker 1: public permission as blockchains and we can still have experimentation
Speaker 1: until we see how it goes. We don't have to
Speaker 1: do everything as we do in capusal markets today, which
Speaker 1: something can be done better cheapa and fast and still
Speaker 1: protect the end consumers. This should be allowed, right.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, and hopefully the EU can get the MICA regulation,
Speaker 2: you know in a good place where, like you said,
Speaker 2: companies are not leaving. I know here in the United States.
Speaker 2: You know we're waiting for the Claritiact to pass. Are
Speaker 2: you in the folks at the Cardina Foundation optimistic? You
Speaker 2: know that we may see that pass, let's say, by
Speaker 2: the end of the December ourself.
Speaker 1: So I'm not very good with timelines when we talk
Speaker 1: about politicians, but I do think that after I was
Speaker 1: in Washington lately, right, and I was the pleasure of
Speaker 1: being in the Parliament and also withsiting the Treasury and
Speaker 1: meeting both sides of the isle, I do think this
Speaker 1: will pass. That's my view, right, And but when I
Speaker 1: just don't know.
Speaker 2: So let's say it gets passed maybe end of year
Speaker 2: or even Q one twenty twenty six, what would that
Speaker 2: mean for the cardan of Foundation and the adoption of Cardona.
Speaker 2: Do you feel that more US companies will be able
Speaker 2: to start building faster and innovating on the Cardona blockchain.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so we are already quite big in North America, right,
Speaker 1: and I think what you will see she will just
Speaker 1: see way more deployment and way more rollouts. So yeah, no,
Speaker 1: I'm very positively optimistic that this will bring more transactions
Speaker 1: on chain and will bring more economic opportunities to the
Speaker 1: American population for utilizing systems like blockchain. So I'm very
Speaker 1: optimistic about that well for sure.
Speaker 2: Now I want to talk about some of the great
Speaker 2: initiatives that are happening on the cardinal side of things,
Speaker 2: and one is the Digital Product Passport. The DPP tell
Speaker 2: us about this and what's the mission.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So sometimes regulation enables innovation, and I think this
Speaker 1: is one of those times. So this is basically a
Speaker 1: piece of regulation coming out of the European Union which
Speaker 1: basically says that any product which is sold or manufactured
Speaker 1: in the European Union needs to have a so called
Speaker 1: Digital Product passport. So this is a bit like you
Speaker 1: know these small flyers you see when you buy a
Speaker 1: piece of furniture, right, which basically says, you know, those
Speaker 1: use these chemicals and this is how you assemble the furniture.
Speaker 1: And you know this is you know the content of
Speaker 1: the furniture, right, is it all wood or is the
Speaker 1: plastic and so on? And for certain let's say countries,
Speaker 1: you won't find a lot. You just find like two
Speaker 1: pictures and this is how you put it together. And
Speaker 1: others there quite far in terms of easy certification and
Speaker 1: you know, child labor and so on. So what the
Speaker 1: digital product passport really is is a very comprehensive guideline
Speaker 1: or a piece of policy. Really who says the minimum
Speaker 1: requirements for things produced in the European Union or sold
Speaker 1: in the European Union is from the start of the
Speaker 1: production to the end of the product lifetime. So if
Speaker 1: you have a chair, for instance, it's not when the
Speaker 1: company goes out of business, is when the chare no
Speaker 1: longer exists. You need to support a digital manual or
Speaker 1: product passport who basically describes also how you get rid
Speaker 1: of it, so how you basically recycle it. And this
Speaker 1: potentially can actually be a liability on your balance sheet.
Speaker 1: So if you create a new company, right and you're
Speaker 1: selling a physical product, you know in the European Union,
Speaker 1: you know, who knows how long that can actually exist.
Speaker 1: And if you're very good at producing, this might be generations, right,
Speaker 1: But if you have your startup goes you know barey
Speaker 1: up after a while, right, there's there's some liability and
Speaker 1: the balance sheet because you need to maintain that digital
Speaker 1: product passport, which means you need to have some money
Speaker 1: for a cloud database to be running for as long
Speaker 1: as the product runs. Right. And I think what we
Speaker 1: sort of homed in on here is quite unique is
Speaker 1: that what it requires in the world of today is
Speaker 1: that many of these supply chains they have multiple contributors
Speaker 1: from different companies. And if you want to have a
Speaker 1: database where multiple companies contribute to the database, well, blockchain
Speaker 1: is a pretty good hit, right. Secondly, due to the
Speaker 1: fact that the community maintains the blockchain, right, not the business. Well,
Speaker 1: basically you can base you can write off all that
Speaker 1: liability because the blockchain will be maintain as in Kadano's
Speaker 1: case favor right. So I think this is a you know,
Speaker 1: there's some really good reasons why the digital product passport
Speaker 1: could be a super opportunity for the blockchain based in
Speaker 1: the European Union.
Speaker 2: But do you feel also that the direction the world
Speaker 2: is heading in where a lot of data and information
Speaker 2: will be on the blockchain, that this type of data
Speaker 2: and information tagged to products and services is actually helpful.
Speaker 2: For example, let's say I want to buy a product
Speaker 2: on Amazon. Maybe there's some sort of digital product ID
Speaker 2: or passport or whatever you want to call it in
Speaker 2: a dropped out dialogue box, and I can verify it
Speaker 2: on the blockchain that it came from this region, it
Speaker 2: was manufactured at this specific date. It didn't go through
Speaker 2: any regions that are blacklisted, so to speak, it's not
Speaker 2: a fake product. Do you feel that these things are
Speaker 2: going to be added to products and services that people
Speaker 2: can verify it and we can do it because of
Speaker 2: the blockchain.
Speaker 1: I think some people would like that, right, But I
Speaker 1: think a lot of people would like to have the
Speaker 1: option to do that. Right. So it were very few
Speaker 1: people who actually uses it and verifies it, but there'll
Speaker 1: be more people who just like the idea that I
Speaker 1: can do it if I need to write, And then
Speaker 1: there will be some people who just goes after the
Speaker 1: lowest price possible no matter what. Right, it's just a
Speaker 1: it's a penny game, right. But I truly think that
Speaker 1: when we look at the experience we had both with
Speaker 1: you know, tokenizing wine, right, so putting the George and
Speaker 1: wine on the blockchain, and suddenly they were selling in
Speaker 1: countries where they've never done marketing. Because people buying George
Speaker 1: and wine, which doesn't have the strongest brand, were able
Speaker 1: to verify the story and the content of the wine
Speaker 1: and have an external third party verification of this, it
Speaker 1: suddenly sold wine and for instance Norway with no marketing right,
Speaker 1: so the whole badge was sold out straight away. So
Speaker 1: I do think there's a huge demand for it, and
Speaker 1: I think as we the generations that start changing, I
Speaker 1: think this demand will go up. The younger generations will
Speaker 1: simply not accept, you know, to buy crap, and they
Speaker 1: know the internet so well that they also know the
Speaker 1: risk very well, so sometimes they will gamble on it
Speaker 1: and other times if they have to pay the real
Speaker 1: dollars for it, they actually want this. So I think
Speaker 1: this is one of the cases where you know, it's
Speaker 1: nice with this regulation because it creates, you know, an
Speaker 1: opportunity for blockchain. But I think this opportunity was there
Speaker 1: anyway on the table.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a great point in regards to the future generation,
Speaker 2: and you know how they may vi certain products like
Speaker 2: wine and other types of merchandise and want that verifiability
Speaker 2: and see the history and so forth. I know there's
Speaker 2: certain things that I personally would want to do that
Speaker 2: like wine and some other things, not everything, Like I
Speaker 2: don't necessarily need to know if my chair was you know,
Speaker 2: made at some place. It's just a chair, But my
Speaker 2: wine and certain merchandise I would definitely want to verify.
Speaker 1: I think you know, you know, we involve as humans, right.
Speaker 1: Maybe another example we did on Kanana was we actually
Speaker 1: tokenized the merchandise for the World Across Championship in the US.
Speaker 1: I believe that was last year, right. And what was
Speaker 1: quite unique about it is that actually has critical infrastructure
Speaker 1: connected to it because the tickets were actually also part
Speaker 1: of the t shirts and the you know, the bumber
Speaker 1: jackets and so on. And can you imagine, you know,
Speaker 1: if fifty thousand Americans that bought their tickets, they line
Speaker 1: up to the stadium and suddenly they can't get in
Speaker 1: because the blockchain is down. I mean, this is actually
Speaker 1: a security concern, right. So one of the reasons why
Speaker 1: it was done on Karana was that we could actually
Speaker 1: you know, Karana has never been down, right, So Bitcoin
Speaker 1: and Karana has been up running since twenty seventeen and
Speaker 1: never missed the beat, right, And this is the two
Speaker 1: only infrastructures which I'm aware of, which includes also defense
Speaker 1: architecture and others who has never been down And I
Speaker 1: think this is truly unique, and I think you know
Speaker 1: them always sort of thinks through these things, right, the
Speaker 1: more important this becomes absolutely.
Speaker 2: Now I wanted to ask you about the Cardano Foundation
Speaker 2: is preparing to apply for two generic top level domains,
Speaker 2: dot Ata and dot Cardano. Tell us about this initiative
Speaker 2: and what we can expect as far as features and
Speaker 2: so forth.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So it is so that these processes they take
Speaker 1: a lot of time, and they take a lot of
Speaker 1: effort and money, right, And what basically happens is that
Speaker 1: once maybe five six years, the organizations who guard the Internet,
Speaker 1: they open up for this opportunity that you can apply
Speaker 1: for what's called top level domains. And you know, as
Speaker 1: Karana has just moved into the world of Woltaire, which
Speaker 1: is the governance era, right where there is no privilege
Speaker 1: for the Karana Foundation or IOG or something like that.
Speaker 1: We don't have specific governance keys, We cannot just mind
Speaker 1: Aida or anything like that. We are truly we wrote
Speaker 1: a constitution, you know, expressed it online in smart contracts,
Speaker 1: and we're living through it today. But these some of
Speaker 1: these classic organizations like that they need a counterparty, right,
Speaker 1: they need a classical entity. You can prove that, you know,
Speaker 1: they've done something with the Karana and the Ada logo
Speaker 1: and with the trademarks associated with this. So this gives
Speaker 1: us the opportunity to use the Karana foundation as approxy
Speaker 1: for the community to apply for these top level domains. Now,
Speaker 1: what you can imagine actually having out of that is
Speaker 1: not just email addresses and so one, which would be nice,
Speaker 1: but you can also imagine that if I want to
Speaker 1: send Ada to you, right, normally I would need your address, right,
Speaker 1: but you can actually associate that with a top level
Speaker 1: domain email address for instance, right, So we can start
Speaker 1: using that as ibend numbers. We can start keying and identity,
Speaker 1: so we can use the Caroana foundations really on wallet
Speaker 1: for instance, to to to create a type of identity
Speaker 1: which we key together with your domain name. Right. So
Speaker 1: I think first and foremost this is going to create
Speaker 1: a better user experience. And also I think what it's
Speaker 1: going to do, is it going to you know, move
Speaker 1: the Karano brand out there even further than it is today. Yeah.
Speaker 2: I love the user experience aspect of it because to
Speaker 2: your point, you know, if you want to send someone
Speaker 2: stable coin or some crypto acid EIGHTA, you need their
Speaker 2: wallet address, and you know there's still some friction there.
Speaker 2: But if I can just give someone, uh, you know,
Speaker 2: Tony at or Tony dot cardano or something right or
Speaker 2: thinking crypto at cardanou, they can just simply send the
Speaker 2: funds be an app and it's just like an email address.
Speaker 2: It becomes so simple, right, And it's what we have
Speaker 2: all been trained and a society. Everybody knows what an
Speaker 2: email address is for the most part, how to send
Speaker 2: an email. It will make it that easy, so to speak.
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly right. And then you can also make it
Speaker 1: programmable as well. Right, So the superpower of kadano is
Speaker 1: you can send one to many, many to one and
Speaker 1: many too many. Right. So you can bold these things
Speaker 1: up using top level domains as well, and I think
Speaker 1: that's going to come a lot of innovation about that.
Speaker 1: But the first and foremost, it's not as easy as
Speaker 1: it sounds. Right. So, yeah, we are applying for this
Speaker 1: right now, right, we are asking the community for acknowledging
Speaker 1: that we're doing that on behalf of the community. Right.
Speaker 1: It does require a lot of legal work. We're already
Speaker 1: paid went through a rigorously process around this. It does
Speaker 1: require a lot of say yeah, documentation, backing, et cetera.
Speaker 1: And in the end there's a committee who basically decides
Speaker 1: whether we will get that or not. Right, But yeah, no,
Speaker 1: I think this is I think right now we really
Speaker 1: need user experience, that we really need marketing to create
Speaker 1: more transactions, but also to spread the love of what's
Speaker 1: actually happening out there and where does a blockchain really matter? Yeah?
Speaker 2: Absolutely, Let's talk about digital asset treasury companies. This is
Speaker 2: a huge trend, a lot of publicly traded companies getting
Speaker 2: involved putting crypto and in a balance sheet. Of course,
Speaker 2: it all started with Michael Sailor and Strategy, but there
Speaker 2: there's one that is launched for Cardinal, and that is
Speaker 2: Reliance Global Group. Tell us about this and what's their
Speaker 2: mission and how much data tokens are they holding and
Speaker 2: things like that.
Speaker 1: I actually don't have too much information about them right now.
Speaker 1: It is totally fresh, right, and but I can get
Speaker 1: back to you on that, right. But in general, what
Speaker 1: I do think is that what's really important is this
Speaker 1: idea that you can run your balance sheet in a cryptocurrency, right,
Speaker 1: And I think this is truly unique. The second part
Speaker 1: is that for these things to really kick off and
Speaker 1: be ver interesting, you need you need really good access
Speaker 1: to capital markets, right, so you need to be able
Speaker 1: to have access to the lending market on an institutional
Speaker 1: scale to run something like a Michaels sailor strategy right
Speaker 1: on Karana. What's truly unique is that you need to
Speaker 1: take a view on voting, right so having a digital
Speaker 1: acid treasury on Kardana, you need to figure out will
Speaker 1: this be able to act as a de rep yes
Speaker 1: or no? And I think this is where the Constitution
Speaker 1: also comes into play and where it becomes you know,
Speaker 1: extremely important.
Speaker 2: Now, yeah, and I'm curious to see how this trend continues.
Speaker 2: Certainly it makes sense, you know, put some of some
Speaker 2: of your balance sheet, your cash on your balance sheet,
Speaker 2: in these assets to help you fight against the basement
Speaker 2: of currency that's happening globally. But then, you know, I
Speaker 2: wonder what's the long term outlook for these you know,
Speaker 2: is it do these digital ascid treasury companies hold for
Speaker 2: a very long time?
Speaker 1: Do they sell? You have to we have to separate
Speaker 1: this into a couple of different buckets, right because what
Speaker 1: my Michael Saila is doing is actually it is true
Speaker 1: financial engineering, and he has he has a game plan
Speaker 1: which is really about how he raises money and separates
Speaker 1: that from the from the shares and from the balance sheet. Right,
Speaker 1: so he has a really strong view around that. And
Speaker 1: many digital ass the treasury companies are running something different.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 1: They're saying, you know, not everybody has access to crypto,
Speaker 1: so is there a way we can actually give them
Speaker 1: access through an ASTAC listed entity that they can trade
Speaker 1: it as an equity. And if you don't have access
Speaker 1: to crypto, right, this might be really good for distribution, right,
Speaker 1: but if you or if there is a tax delta,
Speaker 1: for instance, in Japan, I believe the text delta is
Speaker 1: about twenty percent, So if you hold crypto and you
Speaker 1: realize that there's a twenty percent different compared to if
Speaker 1: you hold equity and realize that, right, So therefore I
Speaker 1: think the MNF can trade as a premium of twenty
Speaker 1: percent in Japan without you know, I was sort of
Speaker 1: thinking more about it. But if the if the data
Speaker 1: is as symbol as you know that you use a
Speaker 1: vehicle to basically hold the underlying the question is you
Speaker 1: know how much are you willing to pay on top
Speaker 1: of the underlying asset, and why are you willing to
Speaker 1: pay that there's an arbitrash there. And what we see
Speaker 1: with most arbitrast opportunities is that they don't fare that long.
Speaker 1: But I want to be quite clear that what Michael
Speaker 1: Taylor does is not a regulatory arbitrast opportunity or like
Speaker 1: a tax arbatrast opportunity. Right, he uses a very specific
Speaker 1: formula that he's able to raise money or raise money
Speaker 1: through depth in capital markets by basically challenging the unwinding
Speaker 1: of the T bill. So we have this very specific
Speaker 1: situation since a few years that people are not that
Speaker 1: interested in the tea bill. I think you saw the
Speaker 1: president and another working very heavily on changing that situation,
Speaker 1: right by him actually being able to offer for institutional
Speaker 1: investors a little bit of a premium or a little
Speaker 1: bit that they get a little bit more extra yield
Speaker 1: out of basically financing him and him be thinking about
Speaker 1: his whole balance sheet in bitcoin and not in dollars. Well,
Speaker 1: basically he can take the inflation out of the equation,
Speaker 1: and if you minus the inflation with what it caused
Speaker 1: him to raise the death that's nearly a zero sum game,
Speaker 1: and then he has the whole appreciation value and still
Speaker 1: a free floating stock cut. And I think that's quite
Speaker 1: different than what we've seen with many of the debts
Speaker 1: out there. They've been simply constructed differently. Yeah, yeah, we'll
Speaker 1: we'll put and explain there. On the flip side of
Speaker 1: the token, you have et apps, right, and there's a
Speaker 1: lot of all coin ETPs getting approved. The SEC still
Speaker 1: has some on its table to approve here in the
Speaker 1: United States. Anything you can share as far as Cardano
Speaker 1: ETFs or eight A ETPs that may be on the horizon.
Speaker 1: So you've seen probably quite a few ETPs. I just
Speaker 1: mentioned one earlier in this show, right, But there's quite
Speaker 1: a few ETPs specifically on the European side and some
Speaker 1: in Asia on Ada. Right. And yes, it is correct
Speaker 1: that there is also coming. So I don't know what
Speaker 1: we really should call it, right. I think the media
Speaker 1: right now calls the ETFs, but in reality is an
Speaker 1: et he traded as an ETF, right, so it is
Speaker 1: a is an ETP, right, And there is some some
Speaker 1: big asset management houses who's applied for that. I'm thinking,
Speaker 1: you know, when you know that we're talking probably like
Speaker 1: within a month, we'll get some clayerity around that, but
Speaker 1: it's it's very likely that you have something on the
Speaker 1: horizon there. And I think there's been some public announcements already,
Speaker 1: but we need the you know, the US state to
Speaker 1: go back to work.
Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure, waiting for the government to reopen. Yeah, well,
Speaker 2: like it is, right, I mean, yeah, it's funny, a
Speaker 2: funny story. I interviewed SEC Commissioner Hester Purse right before
Speaker 2: the government shut down. Now, because she's a government employee,
Speaker 2: they need to review the interview before it gets published.
Speaker 2: So we edited, we sent it to them, and then
Speaker 2: the government shut down they couldn't review, so that interview
Speaker 2: has been sitting on the table because of the government.
Speaker 1: He is really a great gal. Huh.
Speaker 3: You know, she's amazing work. She's been doing right, and
Speaker 3: I think she's very clear about absolutely. There is the
Speaker 3: Cardinal Summit coming up in November. Tell us about this,
Speaker 3: where it's going to be at and what can we
Speaker 3: expect there.
Speaker 1: Yeah. So actually the Calano summers are already rolling, so
Speaker 1: there's multiple summers going on, but the flagship event that
Speaker 1: is going on in Berlin in mid November and what
Speaker 1: you're going to expect is about you know, eight nine
Speaker 1: hundred participants, So it's not going to be as big,
Speaker 1: for instance, as where I was just doing a keynote
Speaker 1: and some panels today here at the Blockchain Life in Dubai.
Speaker 1: But what is really truly unique about it is it
Speaker 1: brings some people to the blockchain space which normally is
Speaker 1: not in the blockchain space. I'm talking about Volvo Cast,
Speaker 1: Johnson and Johnson Boston consulting groups, so were really big
Speaker 1: names who is right now starting to use blockchain technology,
Speaker 1: and we are matching that up with the Karano community, right,
Speaker 1: so think two three hundred very deep Kartano fans who's
Speaker 1: a part of not just building and supporting, but actually
Speaker 1: are running Kadano today. So bringing this match of you know,
Speaker 1: traditional industries together with you know blockchain native people and
Speaker 1: invest us, we believe it's going to give really a
Speaker 1: truly unique opportunity for other people who's also participating to
Speaker 1: see something was very rarely happening, right, So this is
Speaker 1: blockchain adoption on the day happening and use cases you
Speaker 1: haven't seen before. We also announced together with Mazumi, which
Speaker 1: is a daughter company of someone called service plan supported
Speaker 1: by Inmaker that we now have over one hundred German
Speaker 1: companies using a gendic AI on Karano and most of
Speaker 1: them actually don't know that on Karano right, So this
Speaker 1: is also truly unique because what they want is agenda AI.
Speaker 1: They want secure, regulated, a gentic AI where they know
Speaker 1: that they can share data with other companies without breaching
Speaker 1: data privacy rules and using this grace user experience. And
Speaker 1: that's where Karano comes in so compared to other blockchains
Speaker 1: to sort of people that does a pe vote towards AI.
Speaker 1: What we've done is we stay true to a decentralized
Speaker 1: infrastructure and we use that for identity collaboration, the regulatory
Speaker 1: activity lock right and the incentive model underlying these agenda
Speaker 1: AIS and a lot of those will also be present there.
Speaker 1: So I think that's also really really interesting and mind
Speaker 1: blowing to see into the engine room of that.
Speaker 2: That's really great and to kind of drill down into
Speaker 2: the AI and AAI agents on blockchain. You know, I
Speaker 2: would love to get your thoughts on the outlook for
Speaker 2: that is, you know, along the lines of what you're
Speaker 2: stating that these companies they want to create like multiple
Speaker 2: AI agents and they're running on the blockchain or they're
Speaker 2: running alongside the blockchain and can you know, I don't know,
Speaker 2: come over to the blockchain like I'm just I want
Speaker 2: to wrap my head around that. Are they like creating
Speaker 2: an AI agent on the blockchain itself?
Speaker 1: No, So that's not how it works with Karana right now.
Speaker 1: There is blockchain who's trying to do that right, But
Speaker 1: then you need a much bigger data lake environment to
Speaker 1: do that right and you need to different architecture. What
Speaker 1: we do here in this case is we use Kaarana
Speaker 1: for what Karana is very good at as Karana is
Speaker 1: very good at identity. Right, so we might not have
Speaker 1: that many expressions of identity right now, but we started
Speaker 1: really from the Karana foundation with the really invalid right
Speaker 1: but we now have dits and vcs all the way
Speaker 1: up to you know, first level quantum secure identity. So
Speaker 1: what we have. What's really important is that when you
Speaker 1: have an AI from one company who needs to delegate
Speaker 1: work or find answers from an AI from another company,
Speaker 1: you are in a very bad situation from a privacy perspective,
Speaker 1: because if you are the end consumer who's trying to
Speaker 1: get an offer on a ticket to talkyo, or you're
Speaker 1: trying to optimize something. Right, you have not given Company
Speaker 1: A the permission to go fishing for your data and
Speaker 1: Company B. Right. But this is essentially what we would
Speaker 1: like to see, right, because alternatively is that all of
Speaker 1: your data exists in one glorified spreadsheet, and there is
Speaker 1: only two databases in this world. Right, there's databases who
Speaker 1: have been hacked, on databases who will be hacked. And
Speaker 1: if it lives in one glorified spreadsheet, then these businesses
Speaker 1: need to basically buy each other and become like a
Speaker 1: global company, right, And I think a lot of us
Speaker 1: would like to have choice. Right. So what we basically
Speaker 1: have here is that this AI agent is supported by
Speaker 1: an identity which is verified on the blockchain, and not
Speaker 1: only an identity, but something called a verified credential. So
Speaker 1: not only do they say they are who they are,
Speaker 1: but they also say, I do have the data about Tony,
Speaker 1: and I do have his travel records. I'm not going
Speaker 1: to give it to you, but I'm prepared to give
Speaker 1: the output to the request to optimize his travel Itgineery.
Speaker 1: The second thing you can imagine is that you have
Speaker 1: a company who's very deep into tech. They might have
Speaker 1: a lot of CPU, and an AI agent who has
Speaker 1: access to a lot of CPU might be able to
Speaker 1: do millions of prompts and hit a Maybe an inferior
Speaker 1: AI agent who don't have the same sophistication and might
Speaker 1: be able to work around some of these defense layers
Speaker 1: and actually fix, you know, get your data anyway. So
Speaker 1: by using meta compliant us D m U is a
Speaker 1: stable corn and Kano transactions, you basically have an economic
Speaker 1: moment that the AI agent just can't ask a million
Speaker 1: questions without paying for it.
Speaker 2: Huh.
Speaker 1: So you're basically trying using the blockchain to align these
Speaker 1: two CPU AI agents against each other so you don't
Speaker 1: have an arbitrast opportunity. Then, due to this being in
Speaker 1: the European Union, you know, we have something called EUDPR,
Speaker 1: which is the European Data Privacy Act, which is very tough.
Speaker 1: You if you failed that, you might end up with
Speaker 1: a double digit find of your total revenues. Wow. Yeah,
Speaker 1: well this is what breaks companies, right, So for companies
Speaker 1: to actually trust that that that their company is getting
Speaker 1: data from another company without the consent of the user, right,
Speaker 1: what you really need is you need an activity log
Speaker 1: vers is you know, privacy compliant, but also can show
Speaker 1: the supervisors that everything has happened as it should happen.
Speaker 1: And last, but not least, they's say you didn't buy anything.
Speaker 1: You know, sometimes we just ask, right, we want to
Speaker 1: see what's out there. It still gives an incentive to
Speaker 1: the companies for having these AIS agents available out there
Speaker 1: for queries. Right, there's some micropayments, so as you can see,
Speaker 1: actually the AI agent doesn't really touch the Cadano stack
Speaker 1: at all. It just uses it for security and collaboration
Speaker 1: and regulatory purposes. Got it, Okay, very very interesting. I
Speaker 1: know you touched on a lot and there's a lot
Speaker 1: happening with the cardenter fination. Is there anything else on
Speaker 1: your roadmap that you want to highlight maybe that's going
Speaker 1: to happen and let's say in twenty twenty six, potentially
Speaker 1: a lot. Right. What I'm really interesting in at the
Speaker 1: moment is a use case we started that the Dubai
Speaker 1: police around forensics, most specifically ballistic forensics. Right and as
Speaker 1: I'm in Dubai right now, it sort of came to
Speaker 1: my mind, right, and one of the community projects in
Speaker 1: Kadana has taken this to the next level in India,
Speaker 1: it's called Indian Net. And what they're basically have done
Speaker 1: is they basically use Karano technology to hash a part
Speaker 1: of the criminal investigation journey when I don't know, some
Speaker 1: accidents happened, I mean a drunk driver or somebody is
Speaker 1: dead or whatever. Right, what the basically is done is
Speaker 1: they're using Karanas to secure they invested the gift journey,
Speaker 1: so you cannot manipulate that downstream. Right, So when the
Speaker 1: when the different tests are being sent to the laboratories
Speaker 1: and so on, right, all of this is basically hashed
Speaker 1: and stored on Karano. And we already have a think
Speaker 1: about seven eight thousand transactions on main net. And I
Speaker 1: think what we're seeing here is really somebody who actually
Speaker 1: took a deep look into what has already happened on Kardano,
Speaker 1: got some inspiration, and then rolled that out into the
Speaker 1: state in India. And I'm really excited about that, and
Speaker 1: I'm hoping we're going to see a lot more of that,
Speaker 1: because this really shows the power of blockchain become physical, right,
Speaker 1: and when things become physical, it becomes real well for
Speaker 1: people who cannot really grasp it so realm when they
Speaker 1: suddenly can start feeling that the true impact on their
Speaker 1: lives in this case, you know, more ORA and better
Speaker 1: cridinal investigations. Right, this is where you see the hockey
Speaker 1: stick really flying. So that's something I'm really really passionate
Speaker 1: about at the moment and really sort of proud of
Speaker 1: the Indian ned team putting that together also because I
Speaker 1: see that whole lifeline coming from the work with it
Speaker 1: with the Dubai Police but also some work with it
Speaker 1: with NASA at the Space Agency is really coming through there,
Speaker 1: and you see the power of open source software as
Speaker 1: well and inspiration happening through these channels. So that's that's
Speaker 1: that's really cool. Another thing which I'm very excited about
Speaker 1: is of course the new ross note coming from the
Speaker 1: AMAR routine. So I'm not supposed to say too much, right,
Speaker 1: but I think in at the summit, you you're going
Speaker 1: to see, you're going to you're going to get a
Speaker 1: really you know, bigger harm moment, right because the team
Speaker 1: has really done a phenomenal job in ensuring that we
Speaker 1: at least have a not a blog producing note yet,
Speaker 1: but we have a valid data note who's basically able
Speaker 1: to run on so little power you won't imagine it
Speaker 1: and in such a little instance, and I think it
Speaker 1: really shows that we are still committed to economic opportunities
Speaker 1: outside the Western hemisphere. Right, So wherever you are, you
Speaker 1: can actually you know, you can still use Kerano. You
Speaker 1: don't you're not required to have a super professional data
Speaker 1: center and so on. I showed the video to some
Speaker 1: professional bitcoin minors here in Dubai and they were, you know,
Speaker 1: they couldn't believe that this is running on a double
Speaker 1: A battery, right, So I'm quite excited about that because
Speaker 1: it also means the next generation of operation resilience. And
Speaker 1: then obviously we go into the midnight area as well, right,
Speaker 1: So very excited about the launch and hopefully soon from
Speaker 1: the midnight foundation of midnight and see what kind of
Speaker 1: use cases we can unlock using that kind of technolog
Speaker 1: as you.
Speaker 2: That's really great, Frederick, And you know you mentioned like
Speaker 2: the data forensics with the Dubai there, and I'm fascinated
Speaker 2: by that, you know, the bridging of the real world
Speaker 2: in different segments of life and connecting the blockchain there.
Speaker 2: So that's that's very interesting. That's like something I want
Speaker 2: to nerd out on and like, you know, figure out
Speaker 2: how the components and everything works.
Speaker 1: So I love that. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Another thing is that we of course are coming with
Speaker 1: some announcements sort of it around the summit. So my
Speaker 1: marketing team always tells me, oh, I don't share too much, right,
Speaker 1: but but I think you should really pay attention to
Speaker 1: our digital identity team. I mentioned that a few times, right.
Speaker 1: So the Origion stack is really is really taking shape
Speaker 1: and form, and everything is open source, right, so you
Speaker 1: actually don't need a blockchain to run it. And we
Speaker 1: already have requests from nation states and from large enterprises
Speaker 1: to use the stack because it's the only wallet implementation
Speaker 1: of what's called the ELI was is the first level
Speaker 1: quantum resistant extension of the ALII, which basically moves eighty
Speaker 1: percent of world trade. And the fact that that's coming
Speaker 1: out of the Karana Foundation, and you know, and we're
Speaker 1: now proactively being asked also for non blog chain implementations
Speaker 1: of that, I think it really shows that there is
Speaker 1: really some power in the Karano ecosystem and when we
Speaker 1: get the right people together, we can move the world.
Speaker 2: I love it, Frederick, great, great stuff. Looking forward to
Speaker 2: the summit and the announcements coming out there, you know.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for taking the time. I have
Speaker 2: some wrap up questions here for you. First, so, if
Speaker 2: you could create your own metaverse, what would the team be?
Speaker 2: Where would you put your OPU Lister Apple Pro and
Speaker 2: go to.
Speaker 1: I mean it would either be in the mountains or
Speaker 1: in the depth of the ocean, somewhere between thirty and
Speaker 1: forty medias where there's still a good light for sure.
Speaker 2: Okay, rapid fire questions.
Speaker 1: Favorite food steak and salad or my wife's lasagna. Favorite
Speaker 1: musician or band It's called Disneyland after Dark or Dad
Speaker 1: is a Danish rock band and the Unfortunately we're not
Speaker 1: allowed to be called Disneyland. They were suited by Disneyland
Speaker 1: by the d a D. Yeah, very cool. Favorite movie, Wow,
Speaker 1: you called me on that one. I'm not sure I
Speaker 1: have a favorite movie, but one I'm looking forward to
Speaker 1: seeing again with going to get a lot of noise
Speaker 1: for it is something called Starship Troopers is a fairy
Speaker 1: old movie. There's sort of a being the meal with
Speaker 1: alien insects, but it has something about leadership and something
Speaker 1: about you know, ideals and about fighting for the better
Speaker 1: world but also doing it in the wrong way. And
Speaker 1: I think sometimes that's sort of an epiphany moment. We
Speaker 1: are so focused on trying to do something that we
Speaker 1: accept sometimes to do it the wrong way, and in
Speaker 1: blockchain we do that through centralization, so when something gets hard,
Speaker 1: we centralize. And Starship Troopers is really a situation where
Speaker 1: they you know, they centralized democracy right and created that
Speaker 1: you have to be a citizen to be able to
Speaker 1: do anything, and to do that you have to serve right.
Speaker 1: And I think it really is sort of in a
Speaker 1: weird way, you know, teases some of these leadership principles
Speaker 1: with you know, how wrong it is to go the
Speaker 1: wrong way for the right reasons, for sure.
Speaker 2: And it's one of my favorite sci fi movies. I
Speaker 2: remember watching it in the nineties, so yeah, you know,
Speaker 2: if it's on TV, I watch it.
Speaker 1: Favorite book, you have some really good questions. Huh, damn.
Speaker 1: Favorite book. So a book I learned a lot about.
Speaker 1: And the one who came to mind right now, because
Speaker 1: I just don't have a favorite book right now, is
Speaker 1: actually from the royal family of Lichtenstein. So they basically
Speaker 1: wrote a book about governance using Lichtenstein as examples. So
Speaker 1: what he basically wrote about here was, you know, something
Speaker 1: about voting with your feet, which the thing is very
Speaker 1: prevalent for the blockchain ecosystems. If you don't like something,
Speaker 1: you go to another blockchain because there's many of them. Right,
Speaker 1: So we should be super proud that the Caronal community
Speaker 1: is so strong, right. But he also wrote these examples about,
Speaker 1: you know, being a small nation state who actually has
Speaker 1: a royal family who basically decides right, so as a monarchy, right,
Speaker 1: and have no resources whatsoever. Right, how you actually navigate
Speaker 1: you know, governance, and how you serve your population and
Speaker 1: make this attractive and some of those examples in that
Speaker 1: book is just mind blowing. But it's not a book
Speaker 1: you can read from, you know, from a to set.
Speaker 1: You have to sort of take a chapter and then
Speaker 1: chew on it a bit. So I can definitely recommend
Speaker 1: that perfect. Yeah, I'll check that out. And then when
Speaker 1: you're not working at the Cardono Foundation, what are you
Speaker 1: doing for fun? Anything in the mountains. So I love
Speaker 1: to go to the mountains, and you know, I run,
Speaker 1: I mountaineer, telemarkski, I actually am part of the Voluntary
Speaker 1: Mountain Search and Rescue. I play in the mountains with
Speaker 1: my kids and my friends. So yeah, anything in the
Speaker 1: mountains all four seasons. I mean, so that's awesome, Frederick,
Speaker 1: absolute pleasure. I love what Kardon is doing, and as
Speaker 1: mentioned earlier, I'm looking forward to the updates. But thank
Speaker 1: you so much for taking the time to join. Yeah,
Speaker 1: thank you, and thank you. A great show. I love
Speaker 1: watching it from time to time.
Speaker 3: M m m hm
Speaker 1: Hmm