1 00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:04,160 Speaker 1: You're listening to the Mind Over Murder podcast. 2 00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:07,280 Speaker 2: My name is Bill Thomas. 3 00:00:07,799 --> 00:00:11,679 Speaker 3: I'm a writer, consulting, producer, and now podcaster. I am 4 00:00:11,880 --> 00:00:14,439 now trying to use my experience as the brother of 5 00:00:14,480 --> 00:00:17,399 a murder victim to help other victims of violent crime. 6 00:00:17,679 --> 00:00:20,280 Speaker 2: I'm working on a book on the unsolved Colonial. 7 00:00:19,920 --> 00:00:22,879 Speaker 3: Parkway murders, and I'm the co administrator of the Colonial 8 00:00:22,920 --> 00:00:25,519 Parkway Murders Facebook group together with Kristin Dilly. 9 00:00:26,079 --> 00:00:29,120 Speaker 4: My name is Kristin Dilly. I'm a writer, a researcher, 10 00:00:29,320 --> 00:00:32,079 a teacher, and a victim's advocate, as well as the 11 00:00:32,119 --> 00:00:35,840 social media manager and co administrator for the Colonial Parkway 12 00:00:35,880 --> 00:00:39,079 Murders Facebook page with my partner in crime, Bill Thomas. 13 00:00:41,840 --> 00:00:43,439 Speaker 5: Welcome to Mind Ever Murder. 14 00:00:43,719 --> 00:00:45,880 Speaker 6: I'm Kristin Dilly and I'm Bill Thomas. 15 00:00:46,759 --> 00:00:49,520 Speaker 7: We're joined today by a return guest and friend of 16 00:00:49,560 --> 00:00:52,479 the pod, author Bruce Goldfarb, here to talk to us 17 00:00:52,479 --> 00:00:55,759 about his new book The Worst Day, a plane Crash, 18 00:00:55,960 --> 00:00:59,719 a train wreck, and Remarkable Acts of heroism in Washington, 19 00:00:59,799 --> 00:01:00,320 d See. 20 00:01:00,759 --> 00:01:02,159 Speaker 5: Bruce, thank you for joining us. 21 00:01:02,560 --> 00:01:05,000 Speaker 6: Oh, thank you for having me. It's such a really 22 00:01:05,079 --> 00:01:07,680 looking forward to us. It's going to be fun. Oh, 23 00:01:07,719 --> 00:01:08,439 we think so too. 24 00:01:08,920 --> 00:01:11,120 Speaker 7: You've been wonderful in the past, and we were looking 25 00:01:11,120 --> 00:01:12,799 forward to a great conversation today. 26 00:01:14,079 --> 00:01:14,560 Speaker 2: Thank you. 27 00:01:14,599 --> 00:01:16,599 Speaker 6: Thanks for having me so. 28 00:01:16,680 --> 00:01:18,560 Speaker 7: The last time we had you on the pod, you 29 00:01:18,680 --> 00:01:21,840 chatted with us about your book eighteen Tiny Deaths, which 30 00:01:21,920 --> 00:01:25,480 explored the life of forensic pioneer Francis Plesner Lee. And 31 00:01:25,519 --> 00:01:28,560 then we had the equal pleasure of appearing with you 32 00:01:28,640 --> 00:01:31,280 at the Buy the Book mini con at the Montclair 33 00:01:31,319 --> 00:01:33,439 Public Library outside of Washington, d C. 34 00:01:33,640 --> 00:01:34,959 Speaker 5: This past January, at. 35 00:01:34,840 --> 00:01:36,439 Speaker 7: Which point you told us you were working on this 36 00:01:36,519 --> 00:01:39,560 fascinating book and Bill and I were just riveted by 37 00:01:39,599 --> 00:01:43,439 this concept because I had not heard of it, and 38 00:01:43,599 --> 00:01:44,680 Bill had you either. 39 00:01:44,760 --> 00:01:46,840 Speaker 5: Had you heard about the concept behind this book. 40 00:01:47,239 --> 00:01:50,840 Speaker 3: I knew about the crash of Air Florida Flight ninety 41 00:01:50,959 --> 00:01:53,480 and I remember watching it on the news and it 42 00:01:53,599 --> 00:01:57,359 was just such a shocking and horrifying event. I didn't 43 00:01:57,400 --> 00:02:00,560 realize until Bruce started walking us through through it that 44 00:02:00,599 --> 00:02:03,480 there was a subway accident at the same time. And 45 00:02:03,799 --> 00:02:06,120 you couldn't make this stuff up, Bruce, she would almost 46 00:02:06,159 --> 00:02:08,599 be writing fiction. But this is all based on a 47 00:02:08,680 --> 00:02:11,960 true story. This is you laying out what happened that day. 48 00:02:11,960 --> 00:02:15,560 Speaker 6: In January, I as well remember that video, and that's 49 00:02:15,599 --> 00:02:18,639 what got this whole thing going back in nineteen eighty 50 00:02:18,639 --> 00:02:23,360 two watching the television and that rescue video was absolutely breathtaking, 51 00:02:23,639 --> 00:02:26,639 absolutely stunning. And over the years learned more and more 52 00:02:26,680 --> 00:02:29,759 about that day, and it just got more and more incredible, 53 00:02:29,919 --> 00:02:32,120 and I nobody ever wrote the book, so I had to. 54 00:02:32,680 --> 00:02:35,639 Speaker 3: I'm amazed no one's ever written a book about this. 55 00:02:36,199 --> 00:02:38,439 Do you know if anybody ever took a shot at 56 00:02:38,439 --> 00:02:41,080 it or anything, or was this your idea and you 57 00:02:41,199 --> 00:02:43,680 ran with it? Nears I knows why idead. No, there's 58 00:02:43,719 --> 00:02:45,400 never been a book. I don't think there's even been 59 00:02:45,439 --> 00:02:49,360 a book written about Flight ninety. There were several the 60 00:02:49,639 --> 00:02:53,280 Flight ninety crash itself. There was a docu drama made 61 00:02:53,319 --> 00:02:55,479 for television movie, not a docu drama. There was a 62 00:02:55,520 --> 00:02:57,120 major for television movie I think they came out in 63 00:02:57,159 --> 00:03:00,479 nineteen eighty four, which was really pokey, not terribly accurate, 64 00:03:01,120 --> 00:03:03,719 And there were some I think BBC one of the 65 00:03:03,800 --> 00:03:07,840 channels National Geographic. There have been some reenactments, but it's 66 00:03:07,919 --> 00:03:10,960 all focused on the plane crash and the rescue and 67 00:03:11,039 --> 00:03:14,199 that and not about the entire day. I can really 68 00:03:14,280 --> 00:03:16,960 safely say no, nobody's ever written about that day. But 69 00:03:17,120 --> 00:03:20,680 I'm pretty sure nobody's written about the crash yourself. I 70 00:03:20,759 --> 00:03:24,560 don't recall encountering a book about that crash. And this 71 00:03:24,840 --> 00:03:28,800 obviously was a very intensive period of research and putting 72 00:03:28,960 --> 00:03:31,759 all this together. How long were we working on the 73 00:03:31,879 --> 00:03:35,520 worst day. This had been on my mind, honestly for 74 00:03:35,680 --> 00:03:39,800 years and years, but I really started in earnest seriously 75 00:03:40,240 --> 00:03:44,520 in twenty nineteen, after I finished eighteen Tiny Dice. 76 00:03:44,599 --> 00:03:47,000 Speaker 6: It was me my next book. I guess it would 77 00:03:47,039 --> 00:03:49,919 like twenty eighteen, twenty nineteen thereabouts. I knew that in 78 00:03:50,039 --> 00:03:51,840 order to do the book, that the book could not 79 00:03:51,960 --> 00:03:55,039 be done if I didn't have cooperation from certain people 80 00:03:55,199 --> 00:03:57,319 I had to have. I needed to speak with a 81 00:03:57,400 --> 00:04:00,560 survivor of the crash and certain people. The first person 82 00:04:00,639 --> 00:04:03,080 I actually reached out to is Joe Styley, who was 83 00:04:03,159 --> 00:04:05,960 one of the survivors, and I first talked with him, 84 00:04:06,120 --> 00:04:08,639 And it was right around twenty nineteen or so, and 85 00:04:08,759 --> 00:04:10,719 I started doing some things, getting in touch with the 86 00:04:10,759 --> 00:04:14,599 retired firefighters. And then when things changed at my place 87 00:04:14,639 --> 00:04:17,519 of employment at the Medical Examiner's Office, doctor Fowler left, 88 00:04:17,920 --> 00:04:20,879 I set this project aside and just literally sat down 89 00:04:20,920 --> 00:04:23,839 and knocked out OCMME. And then so when that came out, 90 00:04:23,959 --> 00:04:27,199 I returned back to this. So it's been really five years, 91 00:04:27,279 --> 00:04:29,120 but the most of it was concentrated in the past 92 00:04:29,160 --> 00:04:29,920 two or three years. 93 00:04:30,360 --> 00:04:32,879 Speaker 7: So before we get too terribly much further into it, 94 00:04:33,000 --> 00:04:37,120 there will doubtless be people who won't remember this crash 95 00:04:37,399 --> 00:04:39,399 or just might not be familiar with it at all. 96 00:04:39,920 --> 00:04:43,199 Start by telling us about what happened to Air Florida 97 00:04:43,360 --> 00:04:45,839 Flight ninety in January of nineteen eighty two. 98 00:04:46,680 --> 00:04:50,519 Speaker 6: January thirteenth, nineteen eighty two, the country was in the 99 00:04:50,560 --> 00:04:55,360 grips of a really brutal historic winter storm, record low temperatures, 100 00:04:55,399 --> 00:04:58,839 The Potomac River had frozen over, there was snow dumped 101 00:04:58,920 --> 00:05:01,759 on huge parts of the country, and at four in 102 00:05:01,800 --> 00:05:05,720 the afternoon, Air Florida ninety headed towards Tampa with a 103 00:05:05,920 --> 00:05:08,120 stop and no I'm sorry, going to Fort Lauderdale with 104 00:05:08,160 --> 00:05:10,879 a stop in Tampa and took off from what was 105 00:05:10,959 --> 00:05:16,000 then called National Airport and crashed into the fourteenth Street bridge, 106 00:05:16,199 --> 00:05:19,560 which was at the time loaded with rush hour traffic. 107 00:05:19,720 --> 00:05:23,480 Government had released employees early that day, and so the 108 00:05:23,519 --> 00:05:27,680 streets were absolutely clogged with traffic. The city was gridlocked, 109 00:05:27,800 --> 00:05:32,560 and the plane struck seven vehicles killed, several people, broke apart, 110 00:05:33,000 --> 00:05:36,240 plunged through the ice into the Potomac River, and incredibly, 111 00:05:36,759 --> 00:05:40,079 six people survived that crash. They were stuck out in 112 00:05:40,079 --> 00:05:43,680 the middle of Potomac, stranded, separated from shore by one 113 00:05:43,759 --> 00:05:46,199 hundred feet of thick ice. There was no way of 114 00:05:46,240 --> 00:05:50,399 getting to them, and a park Police helicopter undertook this 115 00:05:50,600 --> 00:05:54,879 mission in literally white out conditions, beyond the outside of 116 00:05:54,920 --> 00:05:58,160 the guidelines for safe flight, and undertook this rescue mission 117 00:05:58,439 --> 00:06:00,399 and plucked five of them from water. 118 00:06:00,560 --> 00:06:02,240 Speaker 2: And as at the moment. 119 00:06:02,160 --> 00:06:05,879 Speaker 6: When that rescue was going on, that's when the state 120 00:06:05,920 --> 00:06:09,040 of the art subway system had its first fatal derailment. 121 00:06:09,720 --> 00:06:15,160 So first responders they were faced with two major disasters 122 00:06:15,560 --> 00:06:20,439 almost simultaneously. During a snowstorm that in a grid laxity, 123 00:06:20,759 --> 00:06:23,120 and they had to push cars out of the way, 124 00:06:23,360 --> 00:06:25,439 They had to drive across the White House and across 125 00:06:25,480 --> 00:06:29,079 the mall. It was just absolute madness. The book is 126 00:06:29,120 --> 00:06:32,160 about that day, that entire day, and it structured very 127 00:06:32,240 --> 00:06:34,480 much like a mega disaster movie, because that's what it 128 00:06:34,560 --> 00:06:37,240 seemed like to me. It was just an unbelievable, over 129 00:06:37,279 --> 00:06:41,959 the top collection of circumstances that were just unimaginable. How 130 00:06:42,120 --> 00:06:45,279 is it, Starting with flight ninety, how is it that 131 00:06:45,480 --> 00:06:50,800 this airplane fails to gain altitude, never really made it 132 00:06:50,959 --> 00:06:53,879 very high into the air. From things I've read, what 133 00:06:54,199 --> 00:06:57,399 caused that? There are a number of errors. The crew, 134 00:06:57,600 --> 00:07:00,240 the pilot and co pilot for one thing, that weren't 135 00:07:00,279 --> 00:07:04,199 terribly experienced with that aircraft, and they weren't very experienced 136 00:07:04,319 --> 00:07:07,600 flying in snow. They were both based in Florida, and 137 00:07:07,720 --> 00:07:10,240 they made a number of really serious errors. There was 138 00:07:10,879 --> 00:07:14,519 I read I follow a YouTube channel, so he calls 139 00:07:14,600 --> 00:07:17,879 himself Hoover and it's called the Pilot Debrief. Yeah, I 140 00:07:18,000 --> 00:07:20,399 follow him too. Yeah, he's really terrific. But he always 141 00:07:20,439 --> 00:07:23,399 talks about the holes in the Swiss cheese lining up. Yeah, 142 00:07:23,480 --> 00:07:26,959 and that's when something bad happens, when it's not just 143 00:07:27,160 --> 00:07:30,160 one thing. But that was absolutely the case with Flight ninety. 144 00:07:30,279 --> 00:07:32,759 With that, there was a series of error after aeror 145 00:07:33,360 --> 00:07:36,360 planes that are supposed to be de iced in the 146 00:07:36,439 --> 00:07:39,600 wintertime with at the ling GLYI call solution, which was 147 00:07:39,680 --> 00:07:42,720 not at the right concentration. That wasn't done right, it 148 00:07:42,839 --> 00:07:45,079 was done too far in advance of the takeoff. They 149 00:07:45,120 --> 00:07:47,959 sat there on the runway after getting de iceed for 150 00:07:48,199 --> 00:07:52,000 forty to fifty minutes. No accumulated. Critically. When they were 151 00:07:52,279 --> 00:07:57,079 powering up the plane, they left off a There is 152 00:07:57,160 --> 00:08:01,040 a engine heater. There is a heater in front of 153 00:08:01,079 --> 00:08:04,279 the engines. There's this little tube called a pedo tube. 154 00:08:04,600 --> 00:08:07,560 I hope I'm pronouncing that RaiSat or pito. They measure 155 00:08:07,600 --> 00:08:10,399 the engine and thrush by measuring the pressure before and 156 00:08:10,560 --> 00:08:13,399 in front, in the front of and behind the engine, 157 00:08:13,480 --> 00:08:15,160 and the prints some pressure, they could tell them much 158 00:08:15,199 --> 00:08:17,560 thrush that is being produced. And a piece of ice 159 00:08:17,680 --> 00:08:19,040 had blocked one of these tubes. 160 00:08:19,160 --> 00:08:19,680 Speaker 2: Oh god. 161 00:08:19,959 --> 00:08:23,199 Speaker 6: So it caused a discrepancy in the power between the 162 00:08:23,240 --> 00:08:26,560 two engines, and so they thought that their engine was 163 00:08:26,639 --> 00:08:29,480 at full power for takeoff, but they were really only 164 00:08:29,720 --> 00:08:30,560 at eighty percent. 165 00:08:30,879 --> 00:08:32,919 Speaker 2: And so that was one thing. 166 00:08:33,639 --> 00:08:36,200 Speaker 6: And then there was ice on the wings of the 167 00:08:36,279 --> 00:08:40,039 plane itself, which interferes with lyft. It was a combination 168 00:08:40,519 --> 00:08:44,080 of not going fast enough, the lift on the wings 169 00:08:44,519 --> 00:08:48,120 was compromised, and it was really just doomed before they 170 00:08:48,159 --> 00:08:48,960 even left the ground. 171 00:08:49,399 --> 00:08:52,080 Speaker 3: One of the things I've read over the years regarding 172 00:08:52,200 --> 00:08:54,879 de icing is that there's something about when snow and 173 00:08:54,960 --> 00:08:57,840 ice accumulates, which is obviously typically on the top of 174 00:08:57,879 --> 00:09:00,879 the wing while they're a stationary that lack of a 175 00:09:01,000 --> 00:09:05,879 smooth surface interferes with lift, so it doesn't cause it 176 00:09:06,039 --> 00:09:08,639 to lift up into the sky in the way that 177 00:09:08,759 --> 00:09:12,919 we would expect. This forty five minute gap between the 178 00:09:13,080 --> 00:09:16,759 de icing and the actual takeoff. Was that just as 179 00:09:16,799 --> 00:09:19,440 a result of traffic on the ground waiting to be 180 00:09:19,639 --> 00:09:20,919 cleared for takeoff. 181 00:09:21,559 --> 00:09:24,080 Speaker 6: Yes, because the airport had been closed and so there 182 00:09:24,159 --> 00:09:27,879 is a backlog of flights of departures. So they were 183 00:09:28,000 --> 00:09:31,360 in line during this blizzard. So snow is still coming 184 00:09:31,399 --> 00:09:34,320 down quite heavily, and so they could have turned back 185 00:09:34,559 --> 00:09:36,759 and gone back to be de iced again, but then 186 00:09:36,799 --> 00:09:38,639 they'd have to go loose their place in line and 187 00:09:39,039 --> 00:09:40,879 be at the end, and they would just delay their 188 00:09:40,919 --> 00:09:44,440 departure even further. So they took a risk, they gambled, 189 00:09:44,600 --> 00:09:45,480 and they lost. 190 00:09:46,200 --> 00:09:50,639 Speaker 7: Another part of the story here is the actual airport 191 00:09:50,639 --> 00:09:52,039 at Solf National Airport. 192 00:09:52,519 --> 00:09:53,559 Speaker 5: It's very busy. 193 00:09:53,759 --> 00:09:56,639 Speaker 7: It also has a very complex airspace that's filled with 194 00:09:56,720 --> 00:10:00,159 commercial and military flights. And of course we saw this 195 00:10:00,639 --> 00:10:03,320 in January about four days after we talk to you 196 00:10:04,159 --> 00:10:07,519 with the flight American Airlines Flight fifty three forty two, 197 00:10:07,799 --> 00:10:10,080 which went down in the Potomac after it collided with 198 00:10:10,159 --> 00:10:13,279 a black Hawk helicopter which was on an approach to National. 199 00:10:13,919 --> 00:10:16,879 Before we get into talking about the actual crash and 200 00:10:16,960 --> 00:10:19,399 the rescue on the ice, can you talk to us 201 00:10:19,440 --> 00:10:23,559 about National Airport and why it's such a complicated place 202 00:10:23,759 --> 00:10:25,600 to be taking off from and landing. 203 00:10:25,879 --> 00:10:26,480 Speaker 2: It really is. 204 00:10:26,720 --> 00:10:29,039 Speaker 6: It's a for one, it's a very small air really 205 00:10:29,080 --> 00:10:34,559 surprisingly very small, and it's located very conveniently to downtown Washington. 206 00:10:34,840 --> 00:10:36,159 Speaker 2: The metro goes right to it. 207 00:10:36,279 --> 00:10:39,600 Speaker 6: It's very convenient to get to members of Congress, the 208 00:10:39,679 --> 00:10:42,120 Supreme Court, they have their owners or a parking spots. 209 00:10:42,159 --> 00:10:46,360 It's so very convenient versus Dulles, which is way out 210 00:10:46,399 --> 00:10:48,919 in the suburbs and takes an hour or more just 211 00:10:49,039 --> 00:10:51,799 to get to it, or BWI. It's the same thing, 212 00:10:51,840 --> 00:10:55,519 the same distance away. So it's really favored, particularly by 213 00:10:55,559 --> 00:10:58,879 people who are doing business with folks in Washington. It's 214 00:10:58,960 --> 00:11:02,240 one of the smallest one and it's also surprisingly one 215 00:11:02,279 --> 00:11:05,919 of the busiest in the country. They have one main runway, 216 00:11:06,480 --> 00:11:10,360 this one way nineteen. It's the busiest and shortest of 217 00:11:10,440 --> 00:11:13,919 any runway in the country right that over the course 218 00:11:13,960 --> 00:11:16,320 of a day they have eight hundred or so flights 219 00:11:16,679 --> 00:11:20,320 taking off or landing, which is about once every sixty 220 00:11:20,440 --> 00:11:24,120 seconds through most of the day. It's just insanely busy, 221 00:11:24,759 --> 00:11:29,399 and it's located in a very restricted area. There is 222 00:11:29,720 --> 00:11:32,559 restricted airspace that's over a lot of Washington, over the 223 00:11:32,639 --> 00:11:35,120 White House in the Capitol, and so what they have 224 00:11:35,320 --> 00:11:37,240 to do is as soon as you leave. 225 00:11:37,399 --> 00:11:38,159 Speaker 2: I don't know if you ever. 226 00:11:38,159 --> 00:11:41,320 Speaker 6: Departed from National Airport, but it's like a roller coaster. 227 00:11:42,039 --> 00:11:44,679 You followed the Potomac Inumiditia bank to the left, and 228 00:11:44,759 --> 00:11:48,440 you're doing these left and right banks following the river upstream, 229 00:11:48,759 --> 00:11:51,559 and that's done to limit the noise in the suburbs. 230 00:11:51,879 --> 00:11:54,480 It's a very densely populated area, so they follow right 231 00:11:54,519 --> 00:11:56,559 over the middle of the river. And it's just a 232 00:11:56,679 --> 00:11:59,559 very unique airport with its factors that you just don't 233 00:11:59,600 --> 00:12:03,759 face the other places. I'm not crazy about it. For years, 234 00:12:03,960 --> 00:12:07,399 when I worked for ASKAP, the songwriters Organization, we would 235 00:12:07,480 --> 00:12:11,320 fly back and forth from LaGuardia, which is another old, 236 00:12:11,919 --> 00:12:17,120 very small airport with extremely short runways, and National, which 237 00:12:17,240 --> 00:12:20,720 is the same kind of terable design. It was okay 238 00:12:20,840 --> 00:12:23,679 when it was built, probably in the twenties or something. 239 00:12:24,039 --> 00:12:27,159 With modern jet aircraft, and as you said, as many 240 00:12:27,200 --> 00:12:31,360 as eight hundred flights per day. The whole thing is crazy. 241 00:12:31,840 --> 00:12:34,600 Speaker 3: I know they've made noises about shutting it down, but 242 00:12:34,720 --> 00:12:37,279 I don't think that's ever going to happen, do you no. 243 00:12:37,679 --> 00:12:40,080 Speaker 6: And it just came up again after the flight fifty 244 00:12:40,080 --> 00:12:43,720 three or forty two in January. Every few years there'll 245 00:12:43,720 --> 00:12:45,879 be this talk about maybe we should do something about 246 00:12:45,879 --> 00:12:48,559 it National or all. That would really take an Act 247 00:12:48,600 --> 00:12:50,799 of Congress, and I really don't see that happening because 248 00:12:50,840 --> 00:12:54,000 Congress loves the airport. I actually I like flying out 249 00:12:54,039 --> 00:12:56,519 of it. I've bwi Is closer, but I have flown 250 00:12:56,559 --> 00:12:59,639 out of National and it really is very convenient. It's 251 00:12:59,679 --> 00:13:02,159 great to get to and you have your carry on 252 00:13:02,240 --> 00:13:02,759 and you're good to go. 253 00:13:03,080 --> 00:13:07,480 Speaker 7: But yeah, one of the main differences between fifty three 254 00:13:07,559 --> 00:13:10,480 forty two that happened in January of this year and 255 00:13:10,639 --> 00:13:14,879 then flight ninety is Flight ninety actually had survivors. I 256 00:13:15,080 --> 00:13:17,480 know you're not an expert on aviation, that you're getting 257 00:13:17,519 --> 00:13:20,679 pretty close to being one. She speculate maybe as to 258 00:13:20,759 --> 00:13:23,320 why there may have been survivors in flight ninety, but 259 00:13:23,559 --> 00:13:25,120 not in fifty three forty two. 260 00:13:25,879 --> 00:13:28,639 Speaker 6: Well, fifty three forty two was a midair collision that 261 00:13:28,840 --> 00:13:32,600 they dropped from an altitude into the water, which is 262 00:13:32,639 --> 00:13:35,240 something in addition to the collusion from the impact then 263 00:13:35,279 --> 00:13:39,720 you're dropping to the ground. Where Flight ninety basically because 264 00:13:39,759 --> 00:13:42,480 it hit the vehicles before going into the water, the 265 00:13:42,639 --> 00:13:47,360 tail section snapped off, and really it was the tumbling 266 00:13:47,480 --> 00:13:51,360 action of that piece of fuselage over the vehicles dissipated 267 00:13:51,679 --> 00:13:54,320 just enough energy so that when it smacked into the 268 00:13:54,399 --> 00:13:58,919 water they weren't killed. But there are other similarities too 269 00:13:59,120 --> 00:14:01,600 in that flight nine in January thirteenth and eighty two. 270 00:14:02,080 --> 00:14:04,919 First of all, it must be pointed out that crashes 271 00:14:05,720 --> 00:14:08,759 at Nashville Airport are very rare, but there was the 272 00:14:08,960 --> 00:14:11,759 before nineteen eighty two. The one before that was I 273 00:14:11,840 --> 00:14:14,240 believe what nineteen forty seven. There was thirty three years 274 00:14:14,360 --> 00:14:17,279 and fin out over a long time, that's right. And 275 00:14:17,399 --> 00:14:20,960 then from the one in January was the first commercial 276 00:14:21,000 --> 00:14:25,360 aviation crash at National since nineteen eighty two. It's a 277 00:14:25,639 --> 00:14:29,320 very long stretch of time between these things. In January, 278 00:14:29,720 --> 00:14:32,639 the fireboat was how to commission they put it back 279 00:14:32,679 --> 00:14:36,559 in commission after January's now back in service. Just like 280 00:14:36,720 --> 00:14:39,799 in nineteen eighty two, the fireboat was not available for 281 00:14:40,000 --> 00:14:42,159 any sort of rescue. So even if there had been people, 282 00:14:42,519 --> 00:14:45,039 had people survived, they would have been in the same 283 00:14:45,120 --> 00:14:47,000 situation where they're stuck out in the middle of the 284 00:14:47,039 --> 00:14:49,440 water with no way to get to them. How did 285 00:14:49,559 --> 00:14:53,639 flight ninety move on to your radar? Initially in nineteen 286 00:14:53,679 --> 00:14:56,559 eighty two, I was an empty I had been a firefighter. 287 00:14:56,840 --> 00:14:59,120 I left the fire department, and I was in nursing school, 288 00:14:59,240 --> 00:15:02,120 and I really nursing school. I had already said it 289 00:15:02,200 --> 00:15:05,840 in December of nineteen eighty one that I was done 290 00:15:05,879 --> 00:15:07,720 with it and was going to move to Baltimore. But 291 00:15:07,879 --> 00:15:11,879 in January watched this video. I watched the evening news. 292 00:15:11,960 --> 00:15:15,120 I know exactly where I was at the time, watching 293 00:15:15,200 --> 00:15:18,720 it over the bar at the Jefferson Square. It was 294 00:15:18,840 --> 00:15:23,120 just absolutely stunning. It just I had participated in disaster 295 00:15:23,399 --> 00:15:25,840 drills and exercises and these things before, so I had 296 00:15:25,919 --> 00:15:28,919 some I had been in the field, so I knew 297 00:15:29,000 --> 00:15:32,399 that there's a sense of there's a lot of coordination 298 00:15:32,559 --> 00:15:35,320 and communication. There's things going on that you don't see. 299 00:15:35,919 --> 00:15:39,039 It just absolutely fascinated me. For one thing, in eighty two, 300 00:15:39,720 --> 00:15:42,639 the whole twenty four hour news cycle was still very new, 301 00:15:42,759 --> 00:15:46,159 seeing we started in nineteen eighty so as near as 302 00:15:46,200 --> 00:15:48,919 I know, this is just about the first breaking news 303 00:15:49,360 --> 00:15:53,039 that was almost broadcast in real time. And so when 304 00:15:53,159 --> 00:15:56,679 Frank Reynolds went on the air on that ABC National, 305 00:15:57,039 --> 00:15:59,440 the people were still in the water. They hadn't there 306 00:15:59,559 --> 00:16:02,960 still the rescue is still going on, and it had 307 00:16:03,000 --> 00:16:06,200 this immediacy to it that I had never experienced before. 308 00:16:06,600 --> 00:16:09,000 But it just impressed me a lot, and it's been 309 00:16:09,039 --> 00:16:12,360 on my mind ever since. And we're just interested in 310 00:16:12,960 --> 00:16:15,120 what was the chain of events in terms of how 311 00:16:15,200 --> 00:16:17,480 did that call get to the nine one one center 312 00:16:17,519 --> 00:16:20,440 and the people dispatched, and who was the first one 313 00:16:20,759 --> 00:16:23,080 to initially call it in and these sorts of things 314 00:16:23,120 --> 00:16:25,240 that I was always wondered about and had the opportunity 315 00:16:25,320 --> 00:16:26,159 to find out about. 316 00:16:26,679 --> 00:16:29,519 Speaker 7: So as somebody who took EMT courses, you said that 317 00:16:29,559 --> 00:16:32,639 you've done disaster drills, what are the main concerns that 318 00:16:32,720 --> 00:16:36,000 first responders have to think about during a mass casualty 319 00:16:36,039 --> 00:16:38,639 event like a plane crash? Then? 320 00:16:38,840 --> 00:16:43,240 Speaker 5: Or now let's start with then, and then, like, how 321 00:16:43,399 --> 00:16:44,159 is it different now. 322 00:16:45,200 --> 00:16:48,240 Speaker 6: It's very different now because it's okay, because it's a 323 00:16:48,279 --> 00:16:51,679 bit more organized, and now they do a there's a 324 00:16:51,799 --> 00:16:55,519 framework for it. Seeing command. Back in eighty two, you 325 00:16:55,639 --> 00:16:59,960 basically had all these different jurisdictions. There was no cross communication. 326 00:17:00,679 --> 00:17:04,480 I believe there is something like nineteen different agencies involved 327 00:17:04,680 --> 00:17:08,359 at its peak with using nine different radio frequencies, and 328 00:17:08,680 --> 00:17:11,440 they couldn't communicate with each other, which is a big issue. 329 00:17:11,720 --> 00:17:14,799 So it's difficult what you need, where you needed, and 330 00:17:15,000 --> 00:17:17,480 who's needed and these how you have to deploy what 331 00:17:17,640 --> 00:17:20,799 you need where it's needed. So that was very chaotic. 332 00:17:21,119 --> 00:17:23,519 It's the whole thing from beginning to end was chaotic. 333 00:17:23,599 --> 00:17:29,119 I wanted to call the book cluster. No, we can't 334 00:17:29,160 --> 00:17:31,680 do that. That's what it was. But now today they 335 00:17:31,759 --> 00:17:34,839 do have those command sing management. There's a person who 336 00:17:34,920 --> 00:17:37,720 just doesig need, who's in charge. You don't just deploy 337 00:17:37,799 --> 00:17:39,839 all your resources to the scene. You wait to find 338 00:17:39,880 --> 00:17:42,680 out what you need, so you don't have this whole 339 00:17:42,880 --> 00:17:47,079 congregation and making things worse. Today they don't. There's just 340 00:17:47,240 --> 00:17:49,839 an't the communication problems that there are. Then we all 341 00:17:49,920 --> 00:17:53,559 have cell phones and so the usue of interoperatability is 342 00:17:53,640 --> 00:17:56,240 not the problem that it is. It's not the problem 343 00:17:56,279 --> 00:17:56,799 now that it was. 344 00:17:56,880 --> 00:17:59,920 Speaker 3: Then how did you manage to get a hold of 345 00:18:00,119 --> 00:18:03,680 the survivors? You only have what six people that survived 346 00:18:03,720 --> 00:18:07,079 the impact? You knew who they were, But then in 347 00:18:07,200 --> 00:18:10,759 reaching out to them, are they open to talking about it? 348 00:18:10,960 --> 00:18:13,680 Do they not want to revisit this horrific event? 349 00:18:14,240 --> 00:18:19,720 Speaker 6: I used. I tracked down dozens of first hand participants. 350 00:18:19,759 --> 00:18:22,519 I used every trick that I have in my book. 351 00:18:23,079 --> 00:18:26,640 Joe's Stoley was the first, and I actually reached Joe 352 00:18:27,279 --> 00:18:28,000 through Facebook. 353 00:18:28,480 --> 00:18:29,119 Speaker 2: I saw that he was. 354 00:18:29,079 --> 00:18:31,119 Speaker 6: Active, reached out to him and he responded, and we'd 355 00:18:31,160 --> 00:18:33,000 started out that way, and then went to email. I 356 00:18:33,279 --> 00:18:35,240 was spoke in the phone and various other ways, but 357 00:18:35,319 --> 00:18:38,319 I started out through Facebook. But it was really difficult. 358 00:18:38,400 --> 00:18:41,880 That wasn't Joe wasn't the most difficult one. Actually, I 359 00:18:42,039 --> 00:18:44,519 had to find somebody who was riding a subway car 360 00:18:44,759 --> 00:18:47,519 forty three years ago. Oh yeah, so I had to 361 00:18:47,599 --> 00:18:50,640 have somebody who was on that car. And interestingly, among 362 00:18:50,720 --> 00:18:53,279 the sources that I had to work with, there was 363 00:18:53,319 --> 00:18:56,720 an investigation by a Senate committee and by a House committee. 364 00:18:57,039 --> 00:19:00,599 The House report is about thirteen hundred pages buried In 365 00:19:00,680 --> 00:19:05,079 the appendix of this House report, there are documents from 366 00:19:05,200 --> 00:19:07,759 the Washington d C. Fire Department, including a log of 367 00:19:07,839 --> 00:19:11,359 all the equipment that was deployed and they went only went. 368 00:19:11,680 --> 00:19:14,799 They also included a list of every person who was 369 00:19:14,880 --> 00:19:19,279 transported by the fire Department that day. The survivors from 370 00:19:19,519 --> 00:19:23,440 like ninety all went to National Orthopedic Hospital in Arlington, 371 00:19:23,559 --> 00:19:26,440 but all the other people from the metro from the bridge. 372 00:19:27,160 --> 00:19:30,799 The fire department supplied their name, the residential address, and 373 00:19:30,960 --> 00:19:33,920 their date of birth. That included the phone number, but 374 00:19:34,000 --> 00:19:36,799 it gave you a lot as a starting polic Yes, 375 00:19:37,359 --> 00:19:39,480 so I knew where these people lived forty some odd 376 00:19:39,599 --> 00:19:42,480 years ago. I went down the list. Some of them 377 00:19:42,519 --> 00:19:45,279 had common names. It's really difficult to track down to 378 00:19:45,359 --> 00:19:49,799 John Smith. But I did find Ruby May Thomas, my cousin. 379 00:19:51,039 --> 00:19:54,400 She was wonderful Ruby, and we played telephone tag back 380 00:19:54,480 --> 00:19:57,079 and forth. I even went door to door. I spent 381 00:19:57,200 --> 00:20:01,079 some time in driving around Washington to the last known 382 00:20:01,200 --> 00:20:05,279 progresses of these people, leaving notes and knocking the neighbor's 383 00:20:05,359 --> 00:20:07,880 doors and just doing footwork. But I got a hold 384 00:20:07,920 --> 00:20:10,839 of Rubymate Thomas and I asked her, as is this 385 00:20:11,000 --> 00:20:14,319 Ruby May Thomas she says yes, and I said, we're 386 00:20:14,319 --> 00:20:17,400 writing in the subway car that derailed in January thirteenth, 387 00:20:17,519 --> 00:20:21,960 nineteen eighty two. Yeah, of course, And like she's been 388 00:20:22,000 --> 00:20:25,359 waiting for somebody to ask her, and she just tell 389 00:20:25,400 --> 00:20:26,759 me about it there to day and all that, and 390 00:20:26,839 --> 00:20:30,519 she was just absolutely terrific. That was the trickiest one 391 00:20:30,559 --> 00:20:32,200 who was getting a hold of Roobymates Thomas. 392 00:20:32,440 --> 00:20:33,440 Speaker 2: She was the only one. 393 00:20:34,000 --> 00:20:38,279 Speaker 6: It was heartbreaking reading obituary after bituary after bituary or something. 394 00:20:38,359 --> 00:20:38,519 Speaker 7: Yeah. 395 00:20:39,119 --> 00:20:42,039 Speaker 6: Yeah, and I just missed him by a few years 396 00:20:42,279 --> 00:20:44,559 or something like that. It was a race against time 397 00:20:44,680 --> 00:20:47,440 to get this completed while people are still around. 398 00:20:47,359 --> 00:20:50,039 Speaker 3: Because here we are forty years later, and some of 399 00:20:50,119 --> 00:20:53,279 these people would have passed on due to natural causes 400 00:20:53,319 --> 00:20:55,920 and other things, gene. 401 00:20:55,720 --> 00:20:58,599 Speaker 6: Windsor the flight rescue a technician, the paramedic. I wish 402 00:20:58,680 --> 00:21:01,240 he just died. I think as a maybe it was 403 00:21:01,279 --> 00:21:02,880 twenty two or twenty three, just died just a few 404 00:21:02,920 --> 00:21:05,319 years ago. I really would have liked to talk with him, 405 00:21:05,480 --> 00:21:08,519 and he just passed away. And but they are Joe 406 00:21:08,599 --> 00:21:11,000 Styley is getting really old. He's getting out of ears. 407 00:21:11,039 --> 00:21:12,839 I think he's eighty four or eighty five, now, and 408 00:21:13,400 --> 00:21:15,720 he's not doing well. Some of these folks are getting 409 00:21:15,720 --> 00:21:19,720 pretty old. You're listening to Mind over Murder. We'll be 410 00:21:19,880 --> 00:21:27,599 right back after this word from our sponsors. We're back 411 00:21:27,640 --> 00:21:28,799 here at mindover Murder. 412 00:21:30,400 --> 00:21:33,240 Speaker 7: Of the survivors that you talked to, how many of 413 00:21:33,319 --> 00:21:36,759 them were obviously everybody who survived something like this would 414 00:21:36,759 --> 00:21:39,720 be impacted by it in some way. How many of 415 00:21:39,839 --> 00:21:43,680 them really had a lot of processing to do, And 416 00:21:43,799 --> 00:21:47,279 how many people were permanently impacted by it, either through 417 00:21:47,359 --> 00:21:50,440 injuries or just through a phobia of flying. Maybe I 418 00:21:50,440 --> 00:21:52,240 wouldn't want to get back on an airplane if I 419 00:21:52,279 --> 00:21:53,559 survived an airplane crash. 420 00:21:54,160 --> 00:21:59,680 Speaker 6: They all experienced and suffered experiences both physical and emotional 421 00:21:59,839 --> 00:22:01,640 the rest of their lives, and they processed it in 422 00:22:01,720 --> 00:22:07,599 different ways. Bert Hamilton got religious, the flight attendant Donna. 423 00:22:08,079 --> 00:22:11,480 I'm liking in the names now, but they turned to religion. 424 00:22:11,960 --> 00:22:15,519 The one person I could not bring myself to track 425 00:22:15,640 --> 00:22:19,440 down Priscilla Toado, who lost her husband and baby in 426 00:22:19,519 --> 00:22:22,920 the flight, and I know had never recovered from it 427 00:22:23,079 --> 00:22:25,680 and had been stopped with the DUI and the anniversary 428 00:22:25,720 --> 00:22:28,079 of it. She still feels it very deeply, and I 429 00:22:28,119 --> 00:22:30,599 couldn't bring myself to tell me about the worst day 430 00:22:30,599 --> 00:22:34,000 of your life and all the details of I just couldn't. 431 00:22:34,039 --> 00:22:36,680 I didn't think it would add that much. 432 00:22:36,799 --> 00:22:37,359 Speaker 2: What do you want to know? 433 00:22:38,079 --> 00:22:41,279 Speaker 6: So I didn't do that, especially since you had other 434 00:22:41,440 --> 00:22:43,519 sources and you knew that was going to be an 435 00:22:43,559 --> 00:22:48,160 extremely painful conversation for her and probably even for you. Yeah, 436 00:22:48,200 --> 00:22:50,559 it would have been a very difficult one, and particularly 437 00:22:50,599 --> 00:22:54,440 in her case. It was Actually her father, Burne Keefer, 438 00:22:55,119 --> 00:22:58,279 was a newsman in Florida, and he actually, on the 439 00:22:58,319 --> 00:23:02,559 anniversary of the crash, wrote a five part series about 440 00:23:02,599 --> 00:23:06,279 it and included a lot of information about Priscilla. And 441 00:23:06,680 --> 00:23:09,839 he really liked his son in law, Jose Toronto, and 442 00:23:10,880 --> 00:23:12,799 but he did he wrote quite a bit about the 443 00:23:12,839 --> 00:23:13,839 crash in her life. 444 00:23:14,480 --> 00:23:16,640 Speaker 7: Was this a difficult project for you to work on? 445 00:23:16,920 --> 00:23:21,960 Just on an emotional level? It's intense, really heavy subject matter. 446 00:23:22,680 --> 00:23:25,519 Speaker 6: It was intense, And I tell you, at one point 447 00:23:25,680 --> 00:23:30,279 I was having ice dreams. Wow, like a favorite dream. 448 00:23:30,359 --> 00:23:33,119 But there is about a week or so where night 449 00:23:33,200 --> 00:23:36,000 after night, I was dreaming that I was stuck in 450 00:23:36,039 --> 00:23:39,279 the middle of the Potomac and I'm in this ice water. Wow, 451 00:23:40,880 --> 00:23:44,200 Because I remember writing about this experience, and it's really intense, 452 00:23:44,359 --> 00:23:46,960 really intense that went on for about a week, and 453 00:23:47,359 --> 00:23:51,640 there is that this was the most complicated, difficult project 454 00:23:51,680 --> 00:23:55,720 I'd ever undertaken, really just in terms of the process 455 00:23:55,920 --> 00:23:59,039 involved in bringing it together, the subject matter itself. Yeah, 456 00:23:59,319 --> 00:24:02,240 because there's a traf parts of it are upsetting and 457 00:24:02,319 --> 00:24:06,400 their biggraphic. But have to be honest about the subject 458 00:24:06,440 --> 00:24:09,920 without being gratuitous. It's a fine line to walk, and 459 00:24:10,240 --> 00:24:14,039 I hope that it treats people respectfully. And yeah, it 460 00:24:14,160 --> 00:24:16,440 was difficult. Point people that. 461 00:24:16,559 --> 00:24:21,440 Speaker 3: Were involved in this thing, both survivors and first responders 462 00:24:21,720 --> 00:24:26,160 that ever expressed interest in reading the worst day when 463 00:24:26,519 --> 00:24:30,039 your manuscript was completed. When the book came out. 464 00:24:30,319 --> 00:24:34,599 Speaker 6: All of them really, oh my gosh, The Firefighter has 465 00:24:34,640 --> 00:24:36,279 been great. I've heard from the whole bunch of people 466 00:24:36,440 --> 00:24:38,559 they read it, who were in the book, and they 467 00:24:38,680 --> 00:24:43,000 thanked me for bringing the story to light and recognizing 468 00:24:43,160 --> 00:24:46,640 people who were involved in all these ways. And one 469 00:24:46,680 --> 00:24:49,559 thing we hadn't mentioned is Lenny Scotnick, and he became 470 00:24:49,839 --> 00:24:53,519 a celebrity. I remember this, but please tell a story, Yeah, 471 00:24:53,640 --> 00:24:56,240 tell us about him. Lenny was a twenty eight year 472 00:24:56,279 --> 00:24:59,920 old clerk in the Congressional Budget Office, who was there 473 00:25:00,119 --> 00:25:04,759 at the riverside, And when Priscilla Toado was floundering in 474 00:25:04,839 --> 00:25:08,599 the ice water, she was just about was so close 475 00:25:08,680 --> 00:25:11,880 to that she was just about done for. And he 476 00:25:12,279 --> 00:25:14,599 took off his boots and leapt into the water. And 477 00:25:14,759 --> 00:25:19,559 do remember that, just took a flying dive into the water. 478 00:25:19,880 --> 00:25:24,200 And like that, he instantly became a celebrity. Ronald Reagan 479 00:25:24,240 --> 00:25:25,559 and by the moves of the City of the Union 480 00:25:25,599 --> 00:25:28,720 address a couple of weeks later, there's all this overnight 481 00:25:28,799 --> 00:25:31,240 people are talking about Stutts justly be an honest hero 482 00:25:31,440 --> 00:25:34,160 and all these things, and he just became a huge celebrity. 483 00:25:34,400 --> 00:25:34,599 Speaker 2: Yeah. 484 00:25:34,720 --> 00:25:36,920 Speaker 6: But there the thing was that there were if you 485 00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:39,759 look at the video, there were dozens of people who 486 00:25:39,799 --> 00:25:40,880 were there at the riverside. 487 00:25:40,920 --> 00:25:41,200 Speaker 2: People. 488 00:25:41,279 --> 00:25:43,119 Speaker 6: He was not the only one who got in the water. 489 00:25:43,240 --> 00:25:44,880 He did a great thing, He did a great dive, 490 00:25:45,039 --> 00:25:46,799 but there were other people who got in the water too, 491 00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:50,000 and there was also bunch of people who were involved. 492 00:25:50,039 --> 00:25:52,759 And we talked about this, the chains and the link 493 00:25:52,839 --> 00:25:55,359 of survival. All these people were there. There was a 494 00:25:55,519 --> 00:25:58,279 literal chain outter Roger olling in the water. But there 495 00:25:58,319 --> 00:26:01,640 was a metaphorical chain, all these and they all deserve 496 00:26:01,680 --> 00:26:03,920 some credit to I would like to think that if 497 00:26:03,960 --> 00:26:06,960 I'm going out my day and suddenly faced with a 498 00:26:07,119 --> 00:26:11,240 life in the situation, that I would take action, I hope. 499 00:26:11,279 --> 00:26:13,000 And then you think about ice water, Really, are you 500 00:26:13,079 --> 00:26:14,119 going to go jump an ice water? 501 00:26:14,240 --> 00:26:16,720 Speaker 2: Too? But I think so, I hope so. But I 502 00:26:16,960 --> 00:26:18,519 don't know. I've never been tested like that. 503 00:26:18,920 --> 00:26:21,279 Speaker 6: People faced the challenge and there rose up to it, 504 00:26:21,480 --> 00:26:24,400 and they came together from all walks of life, came 505 00:26:24,480 --> 00:26:27,559 together for this one purpose. And that just really impressed 506 00:26:27,599 --> 00:26:30,440 me and restored my faith in humanity. That there is 507 00:26:30,519 --> 00:26:34,119 the sense that we are humans, we are in this together, 508 00:26:34,240 --> 00:26:35,839 that we are in a society, and that we do 509 00:26:35,960 --> 00:26:38,720 for one another, which I think is really It warms 510 00:26:38,799 --> 00:26:41,240 me a bit to think about that, and I wish 511 00:26:41,319 --> 00:26:44,039 we had more of that spirit today. That's a whole 512 00:26:44,079 --> 00:26:45,000 different Subjody. 513 00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:51,319 Speaker 7: Are there any stories from that day that you wanted 514 00:26:51,440 --> 00:26:54,799 to be able to tell but you couldn't, either because 515 00:26:54,839 --> 00:26:59,720 of lack of access or lack of information, or some combination. 516 00:26:59,519 --> 00:27:02,359 Speaker 6: Of the two. I really wanted to know much more 517 00:27:02,400 --> 00:27:05,960 about the metro crash. It was a really difficult part. 518 00:27:06,119 --> 00:27:09,640 I did not get any cooperation from the Metro authority 519 00:27:09,799 --> 00:27:13,640 the wash really why because they were found at fault. 520 00:27:13,640 --> 00:27:15,079 I would imagine they had to be a part of it. 521 00:27:15,440 --> 00:27:19,279 And they have a safety record that's persistently they have 522 00:27:19,440 --> 00:27:21,599 persistent safety problems. So they just still want to talk 523 00:27:21,640 --> 00:27:24,440 about track safety and all these things and dig up 524 00:27:24,440 --> 00:27:28,000 all these but no. I tried several times, several different avenues. 525 00:27:28,319 --> 00:27:29,839 They absolutely didn't want to cooperate. 526 00:27:30,920 --> 00:27:31,720 Speaker 2: That was tough. 527 00:27:32,440 --> 00:27:35,519 Speaker 3: What was the cause of the derailment? Here we are 528 00:27:35,720 --> 00:27:39,880 focusing on flight ninety and the airplane crash. What happened 529 00:27:40,039 --> 00:27:44,279 to cause a metro car to crash like that? They 530 00:27:44,319 --> 00:27:45,240 have two subway tunnels. 531 00:27:45,279 --> 00:27:47,079 Speaker 6: One goes in one direction and the other goes in 532 00:27:47,119 --> 00:27:49,400 the other direction like a street, and then they have 533 00:27:49,759 --> 00:27:52,920 a crossover so that they can move a track. There 534 00:27:52,960 --> 00:27:55,359 are two separate tunnels, and then there's an area where 535 00:27:55,359 --> 00:27:57,640 they open up so you can cross over the tracks. 536 00:27:57,960 --> 00:28:01,359 So a train had mistake, they crushed over into the 537 00:28:01,400 --> 00:28:04,720 wrong track. It only got a couple of subway cars 538 00:28:05,039 --> 00:28:07,440 on the wrong track. They stopped the train and then 539 00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:10,160 they reversed it. And that's when the problem happened. Because 540 00:28:10,559 --> 00:28:13,799 one of the last there's the column trucks. There's two 541 00:28:13,839 --> 00:28:15,640 sets of wheels in front and two sets of wheels 542 00:28:15,680 --> 00:28:18,680 in the back. The one of the wheels at the 543 00:28:18,839 --> 00:28:21,480 very end of the car came off the track. It derailed, 544 00:28:21,720 --> 00:28:23,839 and so the front of the car because the switch 545 00:28:24,079 --> 00:28:28,000 was defective. One set of wheels on the train was 546 00:28:28,160 --> 00:28:31,160 on one set of tracks and the other set was 547 00:28:31,240 --> 00:28:33,279 on the second set of tracks. And so when the 548 00:28:33,359 --> 00:28:36,039 train backed up, it hit that end point where the 549 00:28:36,039 --> 00:28:38,920 tunnel separated into two, which is basically a column when 550 00:28:38,920 --> 00:28:40,519 you look at it on the edge, and it was 551 00:28:40,720 --> 00:28:45,319 yanked back, forced back onto that column. So this concrete 552 00:28:46,160 --> 00:28:50,319 just pushed its way into a subway car that was 553 00:28:50,519 --> 00:28:54,240 packed to what they called crush capacity. It was jammed 554 00:28:54,400 --> 00:28:58,440 shoulder to shoulder, so all the twisted metal just pushed 555 00:28:58,519 --> 00:29:02,200 around and jammed together. It crushed people. It killed three 556 00:29:02,200 --> 00:29:05,480 people instantly. There is twenty six people injured. And to 557 00:29:05,599 --> 00:29:08,880 respond to that, which is in itself, would be a 558 00:29:09,039 --> 00:29:13,160 major disaster. You need breathing equipment, year, you need heavy 559 00:29:13,240 --> 00:29:16,519 metal cutting equipment, you need all this rescue equipment that's 560 00:29:16,680 --> 00:29:19,559 already been deployed at the fourteenth Street bridge for the 561 00:29:19,599 --> 00:29:22,839 plane crash. So they just it was the busiest day 562 00:29:22,839 --> 00:29:24,720 in the history of the fire Department to the Washington 563 00:29:24,759 --> 00:29:27,160 Fire Department up until nine to eleven. But that's basically 564 00:29:27,200 --> 00:29:28,279 what happened with the subway. 565 00:29:29,119 --> 00:29:32,599 Speaker 7: There is so much here. I would say it's a 566 00:29:32,680 --> 00:29:35,799 great testament to your skill as a writer, Bruce, that 567 00:29:35,960 --> 00:29:39,240 it reads like a disaster movie start to finish. I 568 00:29:39,279 --> 00:29:42,319 could see somebody turning this into a movie. So I 569 00:29:42,400 --> 00:29:44,519 am curious. Has anybody optioned this yet? 570 00:29:44,960 --> 00:29:46,519 Speaker 6: Not yet. It just came out. 571 00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:47,160 Speaker 2: I'm open. 572 00:29:47,319 --> 00:29:50,440 Speaker 6: I'm entertaining anything, but I'll tell you. While I was 573 00:29:50,519 --> 00:29:53,400 working on this, I binged on all the big seventies 574 00:29:53,519 --> 00:29:59,680 disaster movies. I watched The Towering Front, ern Infernow, the Airport, Gosh, Cavlan. 575 00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:03,599 There's so many of them to get that sense of 576 00:30:03,640 --> 00:30:06,640 the timing and how it's structured in the timing and everything. 577 00:30:06,680 --> 00:30:09,839 But it's very intentionally modeled after a mega disaster movie. 578 00:30:10,440 --> 00:30:12,480 Speaker 7: Yeah, I'm really hoping that at some point or another 579 00:30:12,519 --> 00:30:15,119 you're going to get a phone call from Michael Bay saying. 580 00:30:14,880 --> 00:30:18,400 Speaker 2: That he was nice. 581 00:30:18,519 --> 00:30:19,200 Speaker 6: That would be nice. 582 00:30:19,359 --> 00:30:20,400 Speaker 5: It would be so cool. 583 00:30:21,079 --> 00:30:23,160 Speaker 6: But it's great. It's good, just good to have this 584 00:30:24,440 --> 00:30:27,759 in writing. A lot of people like Bill, they remember 585 00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:29,759 a bit about it, they remember it was this big, 586 00:30:29,839 --> 00:30:32,319 dramatic thing, but they don't know the whole none, nearly 587 00:30:32,480 --> 00:30:35,400 all of it that was going on. So there there's 588 00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:39,440 a population of people like that, like our age, who 589 00:30:39,680 --> 00:30:41,599 do remember that, but they don't know the whole story. 590 00:30:41,640 --> 00:30:43,759 And then there's everybody else who just here's about this 591 00:30:43,839 --> 00:30:46,680 and they go, oh my god, this is incredible. 592 00:30:46,880 --> 00:30:49,759 Speaker 7: And yeah, I was a year old when this happened, 593 00:30:49,799 --> 00:30:52,680 so I would not have remembered like at all and 594 00:30:53,319 --> 00:30:55,079 said it and I was like, what do you mean 595 00:30:55,519 --> 00:30:58,799 an airplane hit the bridge in DC and fell into Potomac. 596 00:30:58,880 --> 00:31:01,200 Speaker 5: What are you talking about? You told me the story, 597 00:31:01,240 --> 00:31:03,400 and I was hooked and it was like, oh my god, 598 00:31:04,160 --> 00:31:05,160 this is insane. 599 00:31:05,799 --> 00:31:09,160 Speaker 3: And even though I remembered the airplane crash, I didn't 600 00:31:09,200 --> 00:31:12,519 realize until we were preparing for this interview that your 601 00:31:12,559 --> 00:31:15,920 book also then tells the story of the derailment, which 602 00:31:16,000 --> 00:31:19,799 is essentially simultaneous. I didn't know that, and I don't 603 00:31:19,799 --> 00:31:22,720 think most people knew that. No that had it not 604 00:31:22,880 --> 00:31:26,400 been for Airport to the Plate ninety, that would have 605 00:31:26,440 --> 00:31:29,759 been the lead story in the national news in Oh. Absolutely, 606 00:31:29,880 --> 00:31:32,559 it would have been a huge story. Yeah, but actually 607 00:31:32,880 --> 00:31:35,920 that got very little coverage because of this other thing 608 00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:37,720 that happened in the amazing rescue. 609 00:31:38,240 --> 00:31:40,039 Speaker 7: I really like the fact that you were able to 610 00:31:40,279 --> 00:31:45,200 shed light on the response responsibilities and response time for 611 00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:48,119 the first responders to people who were supposed to get 612 00:31:48,160 --> 00:31:51,599 there and to help save lives and everything else. I 613 00:31:51,680 --> 00:31:54,759 know you spent a lot of time researching the WAYDCPD, 614 00:31:55,119 --> 00:31:58,240 the NTSB and other agencies responded. 615 00:31:57,839 --> 00:31:59,000 Speaker 5: To the Flight ninety crash. 616 00:31:59,440 --> 00:32:02,599 Speaker 7: Was there any thing in all of your research and 617 00:32:02,720 --> 00:32:05,799 investigating that kind of surprised you about the way that 618 00:32:06,200 --> 00:32:08,039 they responded to these disasters? 619 00:32:08,720 --> 00:32:13,519 Speaker 6: There were things that surprised me. There were surprises. One 620 00:32:13,559 --> 00:32:15,559 thing I found in going through this when you're doing 621 00:32:15,599 --> 00:32:19,359 with memories, and you're doing with memories that old, that dramatic. 622 00:32:19,119 --> 00:32:19,680 Speaker 2: Of that old. 623 00:32:19,799 --> 00:32:22,160 Speaker 6: When I talked to Joe Styley, first thing he said 624 00:32:22,200 --> 00:32:22,839 to me is. 625 00:32:23,160 --> 00:32:26,880 Speaker 2: I'm very old. I went through a very dramatic experience. 626 00:32:27,079 --> 00:32:30,640 Speaker 6: I've read everything that's been written about this, I've seen everything, 627 00:32:30,799 --> 00:32:33,640 and I get confused. I'm not really sure. At this point, 628 00:32:33,720 --> 00:32:37,559 he warned me that he's a poor historian because his recollection. 629 00:32:38,160 --> 00:32:40,599 I'm not really sure what's first in experience what somebody 630 00:32:40,640 --> 00:32:43,640 said to him what he read. I really appreciate that honesty. 631 00:32:43,799 --> 00:32:46,359 But in terms of surprises, in the course of doing 632 00:32:46,440 --> 00:32:49,119 this work, I searched all kinds of different sources and 633 00:32:49,240 --> 00:32:54,240 things including I don't read it, and interesting stuff that 634 00:32:54,319 --> 00:32:58,640 you find in comments on videos on YouTube, and this 635 00:32:59,079 --> 00:33:02,000 flight ninety comes up it seems like regularly and read it. 636 00:33:02,119 --> 00:33:05,079 And this guy commented and read it and he said, yeah. 637 00:33:05,200 --> 00:33:08,359 I was the hotel manager at the Twin Bridges Samariot 638 00:33:08,799 --> 00:33:11,720 and they and a radio station called me up and 639 00:33:11,799 --> 00:33:13,519 they asked me if there's a plane crash. And I 640 00:33:13,880 --> 00:33:15,839 went to look, and there's no plane crash. I think, 641 00:33:15,920 --> 00:33:17,240 the bizarre story. 642 00:33:17,319 --> 00:33:20,000 Speaker 2: But then I was reading I don't have it. 643 00:33:20,160 --> 00:33:23,920 Speaker 6: There was a the Maryland's Medical Services Systems had a 644 00:33:24,599 --> 00:33:27,920 this ad the first annual disaster conference that was in 645 00:33:28,400 --> 00:33:30,400 months after this, I think it was in the June 646 00:33:30,440 --> 00:33:33,279 or July, and there was a presentation. There was a 647 00:33:33,319 --> 00:33:36,240 paper written by one of the trauma surgeons at gw 648 00:33:36,400 --> 00:33:39,920 HOST who's the head of the Regional Bridge Medical Service System, 649 00:33:40,119 --> 00:33:42,880 and he's telling a story about Flight ninety and he 650 00:33:43,000 --> 00:33:46,720 said that the air traffic tower lost track of the plane. 651 00:33:46,799 --> 00:33:49,920 They didn't know where it was, so the air traffic 652 00:33:50,079 --> 00:33:53,920 tower called up the Twin Bridges Marriott. They asked the 653 00:33:54,240 --> 00:33:58,720 hotel manager to look for airplane crash. And I not 654 00:33:59,079 --> 00:34:02,920 often you get from two different sources talk with the 655 00:34:03,079 --> 00:34:05,319 hotel manager. I said, was there any change that wasn't 656 00:34:05,319 --> 00:34:07,240 a radio station that called you up? That was the 657 00:34:07,359 --> 00:34:10,880 national tower that you get this sort of verification of 658 00:34:11,000 --> 00:34:15,559 this weird anecdote from two very different sources that turn 659 00:34:15,599 --> 00:34:17,480 out to be true. Of all. Yeah, they called up 660 00:34:17,519 --> 00:34:19,280 the hotel to look for an airplane crash. 661 00:34:19,840 --> 00:34:20,599 Speaker 2: That's what happened. 662 00:34:21,079 --> 00:34:24,960 Speaker 3: You can't make this stuff up. So insane. Yeah, A 663 00:34:25,119 --> 00:34:29,000 quick question, Bruce before we moved to a close. If 664 00:34:29,039 --> 00:34:33,559 these accidents were to happen today, would emergency services first 665 00:34:33,599 --> 00:34:39,000 responders be more prepared than they were in nineteen eighty two. 666 00:34:39,519 --> 00:34:43,480 Speaker 6: Of this same exact scenario. Sure, of the survivors in 667 00:34:43,519 --> 00:34:47,800 the middle of ice water, it would really depend. There's 668 00:34:47,880 --> 00:34:51,400 not really good technology other than a boat to get 669 00:34:51,480 --> 00:34:55,400 somebody from the middle of the ice like that. Somebody 670 00:34:55,480 --> 00:34:57,719 told me. I don't know whether or not this is 671 00:34:57,760 --> 00:35:01,199 a regular thing, but somebody told me that a firefighter 672 00:35:01,320 --> 00:35:04,559 came up with a way of attaching fire hoses together. 673 00:35:05,239 --> 00:35:07,480 You cap up the ends and you can inflate it 674 00:35:07,519 --> 00:35:10,360 with air and you can send the fire hose. Whether 675 00:35:10,440 --> 00:35:12,400 or not that's true, I don't know. I'd like to 676 00:35:12,480 --> 00:35:14,639 learn more about it. But you could actually use a 677 00:35:14,719 --> 00:35:19,159 fire hose as a flotation and you could possibly maybe 678 00:35:19,320 --> 00:35:21,920 get it out there. It would It really depends on 679 00:35:22,000 --> 00:35:25,360 the resources that are available at the time where it happens. 680 00:35:26,079 --> 00:35:29,559 As I said this past January, the fireboat was it 681 00:35:29,719 --> 00:35:32,920 had been out of commission for years for repairs. If 682 00:35:32,960 --> 00:35:35,840 there's not a watercraft available to get you from the water, 683 00:35:36,039 --> 00:35:36,719 how else are. 684 00:35:36,719 --> 00:35:37,400 Speaker 2: You going to do it? 685 00:35:37,639 --> 00:35:40,280 Speaker 6: That's in terms of getting people out of the water. 686 00:35:40,639 --> 00:35:43,000 I don't know if what else would be done other 687 00:35:43,119 --> 00:35:45,239 than plucking them out with the helicopter if you could fly. 688 00:35:45,480 --> 00:35:49,320 But under those same exact circumstances in a blizzard, National 689 00:35:49,360 --> 00:35:51,719 Airport had an airboat and that was their water rescue 690 00:35:51,760 --> 00:35:54,880 craft was one little flat bottom boat with the throw 691 00:35:54,960 --> 00:35:56,639 in the back, and that was it. I don't know 692 00:35:56,760 --> 00:35:59,280 what even if they could have gotten that boat out 693 00:35:59,320 --> 00:36:01,599 to the the water, what are you to do with it? Wow? 694 00:36:02,360 --> 00:36:04,599 Speaker 7: Is this the sort of scenario that is used to 695 00:36:04,760 --> 00:36:09,199 help train first responders and people who respond to mass 696 00:36:09,239 --> 00:36:13,199 casualties or is this so entirely out of the pail 697 00:36:13,480 --> 00:36:17,159 that it's not something that is used on the regular That. 698 00:36:17,840 --> 00:36:20,960 Speaker 6: Day was honestly one, and there's a whole part of 699 00:36:21,079 --> 00:36:23,679 it in the book. All the things that changed a 700 00:36:23,840 --> 00:36:27,119 result of the lessons learned on that day. Things are 701 00:36:27,280 --> 00:36:31,760 very different in terms of aircraft maintenance, to the airport operations, 702 00:36:31,920 --> 00:36:35,719 to the design of the flotation cushions, the bests rather, 703 00:36:36,280 --> 00:36:42,119 but certainly the emergency response planning is better in a 704 00:36:42,199 --> 00:36:45,679 practical sense. After this, they all got together and they 705 00:36:45,760 --> 00:36:48,440 decided that we really need to the different jurisdictions, we 706 00:36:48,559 --> 00:36:51,519 need to cooperate, and we need to practice this all together, 707 00:36:51,639 --> 00:36:55,480 and so they did an inter jurisdictional exercise after the crash. 708 00:36:55,840 --> 00:36:58,639 In terms of the lessons learned from the command structure, 709 00:36:58,920 --> 00:37:03,199 how a disaster is managed, the communication, all those things 710 00:37:03,239 --> 00:37:05,480 are much much better today. In fact, many of the 711 00:37:05,599 --> 00:37:09,559 lessons that were learned from January thirteenth, eighty two were 712 00:37:09,599 --> 00:37:12,400 applied than on nine to eleven, nine to eleven What's 713 00:37:12,599 --> 00:37:15,519 North than it would have because of what they learned 714 00:37:15,599 --> 00:37:20,360 from nineteen eighty two, things have been adopted pretty widely 715 00:37:20,639 --> 00:37:23,440 in emergency services in terms of the command structure and 716 00:37:23,480 --> 00:37:26,239 these sorts of things. Once this planet implements and everybody 717 00:37:26,320 --> 00:37:28,800 knows they're respond to, what their parts are, what they're 718 00:37:28,800 --> 00:37:32,280 supposed to do, so that really makes simplifies things where 719 00:37:32,280 --> 00:37:35,039 you don't have confusion about who's in charge and what 720 00:37:35,119 --> 00:37:36,480 are we supposed to be doing and where do we. 721 00:37:36,519 --> 00:37:37,559 Speaker 2: Go with that kind of stuff. 722 00:37:38,400 --> 00:37:41,239 Speaker 7: The book is the worst day, a plane crash, a 723 00:37:41,360 --> 00:37:45,719 train wreck, and remarkable acts of heroism in Washington, d C. First, 724 00:37:45,760 --> 00:37:47,320 where can everybody find the book? 725 00:37:48,559 --> 00:37:51,280 Speaker 6: They can find the book. Wherever they find books, they 726 00:37:51,280 --> 00:37:54,880 at sale at all the usual places they can support. 727 00:37:54,960 --> 00:37:57,719 Independent bookstores are very good. If they don't have an 728 00:37:57,719 --> 00:38:00,639 independent bookstore in the area, you can go to bookshop 729 00:38:00,679 --> 00:38:03,280 dot org, the local library. You can ask for it. 730 00:38:03,440 --> 00:38:08,239 That's very nice. It's available audio, keybook anywhere you get books. 731 00:38:09,320 --> 00:38:11,960 Speaker 7: Fantastic, Firse, thank you so much for joining us for 732 00:38:12,079 --> 00:38:13,840 this episode. We really enjoyed talking to you. 733 00:38:14,239 --> 00:38:16,519 Speaker 6: Thank you for having me. I have enjoyed talking with 734 00:38:16,599 --> 00:38:16,880 you too. 735 00:38:17,440 --> 00:38:19,000 Speaker 5: That is going to do it for this episode of 736 00:38:19,079 --> 00:38:22,639 Mind over Murder. Thank you so much for listening. We'll 737 00:38:22,679 --> 00:38:23,480 see you next time. 738 00:38:34,000 --> 00:38:37,480 Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and 739 00:38:37,639 --> 00:38:39,039 Another Dog Productions. 740 00:38:39,639 --> 00:38:42,960 Speaker 3: Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley. 741 00:38:43,320 --> 00:38:45,639 Speaker 1: Our logo art is by Pamela Arnoit. 742 00:38:46,360 --> 00:38:48,440 Speaker 2: Our theme music is by Kevin McLoud. 743 00:38:48,960 --> 00:38:52,840 Speaker 1: Mind Over Murder is distributed in partnership with crawl Space Media. 744 00:38:53,639 --> 00:38:56,719 Speaker 2: You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram. 745 00:38:57,000 --> 00:38:59,559 Speaker 1: You can also follow our page on the Colonial Parkway 746 00:38:59,639 --> 00:39:01,400 Murders on Facebook. 747 00:39:01,280 --> 00:39:04,239 Speaker 3: And finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at 748 00:39:04,320 --> 00:39:05,840 Bill Thomas five six. 749 00:39:06,440 --> 00:39:09,360 Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to mind Over Murder.